'Why would the government want to be on Twitter?' | James O’Brien - The Whole Show

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Three minutes after ten and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
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I'll just run through that again because no one else has this morning. The police force accused of anti-white racism after an officer's response to the murder of Henry Novak
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is more than five times as likely to subject black people to a stop and search as white people
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That's not an opinion altogether now. That's counting. And it is absolutely essential that you do not mention that if you are in the business of pretending to believe that such a thing as anti-white racism exists
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I got schooled yesterday by two women. One was a guest on the programme and one is a presenter on this radio station that comes on after me
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And they both speak to the story that I just alluded to, but only one really speaks to the conversation that we're going to have in the first hour
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You probably want to know what those two lessons were. Sheila Fogarty mentioned at the top of her show yesterday
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just as I was leaving, that we hadn't heard enough voices from people of colour
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when it comes to reactions to the idea that our police forces in this country
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routinely found, of course, to be institutionally racist against people of colour
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We hadn't heard from many people of colour on the station, let alone just on my programme
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about their reactions to it. And it was one of those moments where I kind of did a Homer Simpson
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I sort of went, dull. Because Sheila was absolutely right, and she made some extraordinary radio yesterday
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by inviting people from ethnic minorities to comment upon this frankly ludicrous narrative
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that is now dominating discourse across all of the places, forgive me for repetition
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that told you to trust Boris Johnson, that Brexit would be brilliant, that Donald Trump was a legend
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that austerity was going to solve all of our problems, that Liz Truss was an economic genius
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that Benjamin Netanyahu would be good for Israel and good for the world
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All the same people, making all the same arguments and getting them wrong in all the same ways
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now moved on to pretending to believe, or perhaps even believing, maybe they're that bent
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that anti-white racism is actually a thing, something that would be, I presume, a combination of hilarious and horrifying
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to people who have ever stuck their head out of their own window
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for more than 30 seconds. And the other lesson... Oh, no, I don't know
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All right, okay, so Sheila schooled me. I don't know if Jess Osato schooled me or not
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She's the MP that we spoke to yesterday with regard to her plans to sue, her ongoing case
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to sue Elon Musk's AI company, Grok in particular, the element of Twitter or X, over fake sexualised images
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This is the means by which people using Elon Musk's technology can create images or disseminate or literally just sort of muster up images of child sexual abuse and then make money from spreading them
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There's some debate over whether or not the claim that they had stopped the technology from delivering this capability has worked or not
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But the technology is real. The people that are routinely claiming that we need to protect our women and our girls are exposing women on their own social media platforms to, frankly, hideous abuse and misogynistic verbal violence
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And, of course, visual violence as well. And I asked her whether she'd left the platform
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And she said no. And she made the argument that it would somehow involve conceding ground to the misogynists
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And I don't know. And the problem is, I've spent this week reflecting on all the things I'm not
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You see? I'm not a woman. I don't know if I can argue with Jess Asato about whether or not conceding grounds to misogynists would be the consequence of quitting Twitter
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And I'm, of course, I'm not of colour either. So, I don't know what it would be like to hear various blowhards, liars and bigots claim that the police forces in this country are biased against white people
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These are things that I am not. Of course, in Nigel Farage's universe, I, as a privately educated white heterosexual middle class professional who is in possession for now of all his mental and physical faculties
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I am a member of the most discriminated against group of human beings in this country
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I mean, who here would want to be a white, privately educated, middle-class, well-caved professional
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heterosexual, in full possession of all of his physical and mental faculties? I mean, who on earth would want to be running that gauntlet, eh
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Walking that tightrope on a daily, but honestly, I get out of bed every morning wondering where the next attack is going to come from
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Oh, it's a miracle. Someone should give me £5 million to pay for my security
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in case someone decides to lob a milkshake roughly in my direction later today
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Unbelievable risks that I take every time I step outside my door
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because I'm a white middle class, privately educated, heterosexual, professional in full possession of all my mental and physical faculties
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Oh, won't somebody think of the white middle class, privately educated, well-paid professionals in full possession of all..
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heterosexual, well-paid professionals in full possession of all... Won't somebody think of us
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I wish I was joking, but that seems to be the direction of traffic at the moment. I paused to reflect on whether or not I have the right to suggest to people like Jess Asato that they should quit it
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The ogy I use is like, imagine if you got on a bus and someone started abusing you on a bus, right
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And you can take them on, you can humiliate them, you can point and laugh, but then the entire bus
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the bus driver literally controls who can get on and off the bus
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and is packing the top deck with people who are going to join in
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not with the anti-misogyny not with the defense against the racists the bigots, the misogynists, the homophobes
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the driver of the bus the owner of the bus company has instructed the driver of the bus
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to literally tie gags around the mouths of the people telling the truth
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and give enormous amplifiers to all of the people shouting the racist and the misogynistic lies
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Not only that, but he is making sure that there are about a thousand of them in every conversation
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on every bus, compared to about one of the people who are either repulsed by it or victims of it
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And that's why I think that it is time for the government and for all members of Parliament
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and actually for all media companies, including this one, to come off Twitter entirely
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I look at what Elon Musk has been doing on there in recent days
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and his involvement in the Henry Novak trial, his desperate attempts to foment, F-O-M-E-N-T
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as a couple of you pointed out to me yesterday, foment a civil war in this country
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I mean literally literally telling people to go out and fight spreading absolute lies about everything from Henry Novak murder to the safety of the streets of our capital city And that just the owner
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I mean, what happens as a consequence of the owner controlling what goes on there, to me, is absolutely unbelievable
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It's a weird one, this, at 11 minutes after 10, because I've got a bunch of problems
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I've got loads of problems, but that ain't one. The first is, I used to love it
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And I was quite an early adopter. I wasn't mega early. I remember looking at how many followers Richard Bacon had
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when I first got onto Twitter, and I remember thinking, good grief, I mean, how does that even happen
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How can you get a million followers if you're a radio programme presenter
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That's just extra. But when I left, I had, I think, 1.3 or 1.4 million
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And my account is still there, because, of course, if I abandon it, someone will open an account with the same name
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pay Elon Musk a few quid for a blue tick, and pretend that they're me
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which would be fine if it was funny, but it wouldn't be funny, and there'd be nothing anyone could do to stop it
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because the place is now almost entirely unregulated and uncontrolled. Well, except it's not uncontrolled
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It is controlled to prioritise hatred. It is controlled to promote people who are making quite significant sums of money
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from spreading hatred and lies. It is literally, well, not literally, but it is a cesspit
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And I'm also a little bit conscious, another of my myriad problems
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is that I don't want to sound holier than thou. I don't want to sound like, oh, well, I did it, so you can as well
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Maybe it's not that easy. I've got a blooming great radio show. I don't know if you've noticed
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If you haven't, you're listening to it right now, along with one and a half million other people every week
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So I don't really suffer from the lack of platform or lack of exposure that Twitter provides
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And I'm conscious of personalising this a little, but I think I have to, because I don't want to be holier than thou
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I don't want to sit here and say, all of these people should come off Twitter. For some MPs and for some people who are not evil
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it is one of the only places you can go to reach the public. And, of course, LBC still puts up clips of me on Twitter
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So, in a way, I'm having my cake and eating it. I'm still there. My face is still there
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But I'm not there, like Macavity. So I'm conscious of having a very peculiar perspective on this question
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I look at other people, but, of course, by dint of where I look, they are peculiar people as well
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So I might see one of my favourite newspaper columnists, Ian Dunt, frequently opining that everybody should get off Twitter
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But Ian's got a newspaper column. So, do you see what I mean
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And I'm sure he's a cleverer bloke than me, so I'm sure he's aware of these nuances and these difficulties as well
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But it is obvious that Elon Musk is using our country as some sort of petri dish for a race war
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And if you spend all your time on Twitter and you are seeing almost exclusively right-wing comment
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like Kemi Badenok is, then you could end up thinking that this is some sort of reality
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as opposed to a carefully created alternative universe. Kemi Badenok, in the last couple of days
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has come out and claimed that we're close to civil war, which is a position you could only arrive at
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if you spent, I don't know, 98% of your time scrolling aimlessly through right-wing Twitter accounts
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But Elon Musk wishes us harm. A Labour MP is attempting to sue one of his companies
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after his technology created fake sexualised images of her. And it allowed people to create fake sexualised images of children
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One of the mothers of one of Elon Musk's own children is suing him for exactly, or suing the company
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for exactly the same thing. And when, I don't know if this is a curse of Keir Starmer or a curse of coverage of Keir Starmer
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but when Keir Starmer comes out and condemns him, it feels like a little too little
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Well, it doesn't feel like quite enough, and it feels as if perhaps it's all happening a little too late
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A police officer who left the Hampshire Police Force in 2024, nearly two years before the murder of Henry Novak, has had to go into hiding
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I'll say that again, nearly two years before Henry's hideous murder. She's had to go into hiding in this country
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after Elon Musk's technology, Elon Musk's platform spread false claims that she was involved
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It is, as she said in a statement, alarming to see how quickly a piece of outdated media
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can be weaponised by algorithms and accepted as fact by AI platforms
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despite being factually impossible. Musk claiming that legacy mainstream media somehow is hatefully racist against whites
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That would be funny if it wasn't so ridiculous. By legacy mainstream media, he means the Daily Mail
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which is, of course, hatefully racist against whites. He means the Daily Telegraph
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which is, of course, hatefully racist against whites. He means the Daily Express
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which is, of course, hatefully, hatefully racist against whites. He means the Sun. I'll tell you one thing
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Don't go near the Sun if you're white. Honestly, you'll come away traumatized
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Don't go near the Daily Mail if you're white. It'd be like walking into the lion's den
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Won't somebody think of the white, middle-aged, middle-class, privately educated, heterosexual men
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who are fully possessed of all their mental and physical faculties? Because everybody knows we're the real victims in this country
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Nigel says so. So whatever you do if you're white, don't go near legacy mainstream media
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because it's hatefully racist against whites. What is he even talking about
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I don't think he could tell you, except to say either that he believes the bilge that is being artificially disseminated and promoted on his own platform
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or he's up to something a little bit more sinister than that. I don't know. Who here wouldn't trust a bloke who gives Nazi salutes in public
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Sorry, Roman salutes in public. So what is the argument for staying on there
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and is it an argument I can't quite see because I happen to be currently the most listened to
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speech radio host in the history of British commercial radio which means I don't really have a
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I only noticed this this morning when I was preparing to talk to you
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I was sort of getting on my high horse about it about to lay down the law
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and it was talking to Jess Asato yesterday that made me think after the show
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about why my initial response was to tell her that she's wrong
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Whenever I find my initial response to a woman is telling them that they're wrong
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I have somehow, over the last few years, managed to press pause on my opinions
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and think, maybe it's you that's wrong. The introduction of the word mansplaining
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to my vocabulary has been incredibly helpful. Incredibly helpful. So, the question of
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maybe I think that because I'm a man. And, of course, the introduction of the phrase
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white privilege. Incredibly helpful. Maybe I don't understand that issue actually properly because I'm white
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Therefore, I've never been exposed to all of the things that people of colour are uniquely exposed to
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in any pluralistic society where the majority is massively white. So, is it... I don't think it's mansplaining, but it might be presenter-splaining
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to say to people who need Twitter to get their messages across
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I don think you can put the government on that list though can you The government could easily arrange for its messages to be widely disseminated without having to step in or even dip a toe into Elon Musk cesspit
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So that's the question. That's the question. 0345 6060 973. Do you think that..
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Let's start with the government, but let's also talk about you. And in fact, I really mean that
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Let's not talk any more about me. God knows how boring that can be. I've put my cards on the table
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I don't think my opinion actually... My personal behavior doesn't matter. And my opinion on what other people should do
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is massively compromised by the fact that I've got a massive platform right here, right now
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Keith, why didn't the music start when I said that? Anyway, I've got a massive platform right here, right now
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So my opinion, my behavior on this, I don't think matters much. But I think I can say the government has to come off
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And for people who have still been on there, perhaps a little bit of guidance on how awful it's become
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for those of us who don't really know anymore. So question number one, should the government now come off Twitter
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Because the bloke that owns it is a foreign actor wishing ill upon our country
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and spreading propaganda and lies about our country. Should the government now come off Twitter
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Hit the numbers now, you will get through. 03456060973. Should you come off
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Or why won't you? Why do you think you shouldn't? And just how awful is it now
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for the benefit of those of us who've either never been on it or who managed to walk away some time ago
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Hit the numbers now, you will get through. 03456060973. James O'Brien on LBC
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And here is just one example. Here is Cathy Newman, now at Sky News
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revealing what happened to her on Elon Musk's platform after she interviewed one of Nigel Farage's donors
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who got rewarded with a job. If you give Nigel Farage's party quite a small sum of money
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you get a job in the party. If you give him a huge sum of money, then it would appear he will tailor policy proposals
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in order to make you much richer. More on that a little bit later in the programme
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but Zia Yusuf, who I think calls himself Shadow Chancellor, despite not even being an MP
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Cathy interviewed him and the army of real people, racists, bots, trolls, whatever they are
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on Twitter responded as they have been primed, programmed and instructed to do
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Ever since interviewing the Reform Party spokesman Zia Yusuf about this on Tuesday
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I've been deluged with misogynistic abuse and death threats on X, but also Instagram
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I just want to read you just a very small fraction of the post. So here's one
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Just watched your interview with Zia. You're a vile, rotten C word
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Question is, Cathy, are white lives more important than black lives? And why do you feel that way
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You need something between the eyes and then there's a kind of target sign there
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Then the next one. You're a racist C word that needs to be eliminated in capital letters
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Well, lots of pure cold rage there, Nigel. should the government come off that platform
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she registered Instagram as well I'm going to confine the conversation to the platform I used to know best, for now at least
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and should you 034560973 Tim's in Belfast, Tim what would you like to say
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Good morning James I think the government and I think you should get back onto Twitter
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what happens when everybody leaves Twitter is it leaves it as a
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single platform that is used by the right, it reinforces all of those that are on it
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because there's no debate. And unless people like you... But there's no debate there now
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Well, there is, because I live in Northern Ireland. I have about 24,000 followers
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We have a pretty furbile political atmosphere over here, which isn't probably heard much about
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because it still exists, you know, Catholic, Protestant, Republican, that, the Unionists
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And there's debate and argument goes on all the time about whether I try to stand up
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to the traditional union of voice, particularly in an environment, James, where the BBC in Northern Ireland
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is as biased as it is in the United Kingdom. Well, your experience may justify your position
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and that's partly why we're having this conversation today. But what possible purpose is served by Cathy Newman
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continuing to expose herself to that sort of treatment when there will be barely a single voice
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either supporting her or challenging it, and the algorithm will be primed
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not only to deluge her word, her with that hideous abuse, borderline criminal in some cases, possibly criminal in fact in some
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and Elon Musk has actually engineered the system to be like that
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So you might be spared the worst excesses of it, but the worst excesses are the reason why the government shouldn't be there
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Well, I do, I completely understand that. But the point I would make is if everybody leaves it
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One of the greatest revelations of Twitter and other social media is how many complete lunatics there are out there
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I mean, and that's not to in any way enable them. But if we don't know those people are out there
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how do we stand up to them? And if we just let them... Well, respectfully, respectfully, Tim
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we know they're out there because they've got their own political party
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They're writing columns for the Daily Mail. It's just the ones that do it for free that are populating Twitter
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and you can't, I don't know if you have any experience of this, that's not a patronising thing
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you can't touch the sides of it. I mean, my departure from there
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and I know I'm not supposed to be talking about myself, but as a prominent liberal voice
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British liberal voice on Twitter, I wouldn't get... My messages were being put in front of people very deliberately
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who would respond to me in a milder way of the way that Cathy Newman was responded to
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but my experience on there was pointless by the end. There was literally no point in me being there
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So you weren't debating and you couldn't engage because they actually weren't letting you
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But at least you're there, James, because if you're not... No, of course I will, of course I will
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If you're not there, then it's just another media channel that joins in with the Daily Mail, the Telegraph, the Times..
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I'm going to put you down as rarefied, Tim. I'm going to put you down as rarefied, Tim, in Belfast
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Your experience is rarefied. You're moving specifically in the area of Northern Irish politics
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particularly, which obviously hasn't got Elon Musk's goat in a particular way
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But if you're on a bus and the bus driver is literally letting on people
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who only want to get on the bus to abuse you like they were abusing Cathy Newman
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to foment civil war on that bus, despite the fact that the owner of the company lives on the other side of the Atlantic
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to deliberately silence and mute all of the people telling the truth and saying decent things
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then it's not a surrender to get off the bus. It's madness to stay on it
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Yes, the surrender position is, if you're not there at all, then you're even more invisible
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Well, if a tree falls in the woods and there's no one there to hear it
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did the tree ever fall at all, Timothy? 10.27 is the time
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Emma is in Biddeford. Emma what would you like to say Hi I kind of got to agree with Tim actually I came off Twitter a few years back because I lost the will to live with their shenanigans It was just cruelty and
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it was vile, it was disgusting and it was vitriolic and it was just, it was a very horrible
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bus to be on and unfortunately I gave up and I got off. My stance now is that I should be back on
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that bus because somebody's got to be fighting somewhere. Somebody has to stand up and go
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this isn't right. Do you think a Nigel Farage fan has ever seen one of your tweets or indeed one of
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mine and gone, oh my lord, I've somehow been turned into a racist. I think I'm going to change my mind immediately
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No. So what fight is it that you're having? The fight is that there's
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bound to be somebody who is on the knife edge. No, not if it's engineered. So what you're talking about is that you're talking
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about the importance of being on a level playing field, even if you're massively outnumbered
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I am talking about making sure that there is a playing field
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to be on. But there isn't, is there? If the playing field is vertical
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Not even close to horizontal. It's not even skewed. The playing field is completely vertical
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What's the point of being on there? You're never going to reach anybody who's reachable
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because it is engineered to stop you from being seen if you're being equable, liberal, decent
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That's valid. You're talking about the algorithm. But the algorithm will also work for us
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because if you and I were both back on there, friends and then we brought our liberal friends in and..
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Sorry, I've got well over a million followers, so I can tell you categorically that's not true
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Categorically, from experience. But how were you trying to work it? Were you asking people to bring their liberal friends in
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I was, I think, according to Reuters, I was in the top five influential people on there
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But what were you asking people to do? How come you don't know
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I was doing what I do on the radio. I was doing exactly what I do on the radio
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And, of course, I was also promoting the clips of me talking on the radio. And it used to reach parts that other media can't reach
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And then it got shut down completely by the algorithm. With respect, I'd forgotten that
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I literally was, certainly in the top ten, of the most influential journalists in this country on social media
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Even after I left, I'm still in the top ten. And that is a massively wonderful platform for you to be able to stand on
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Of course it isn't. This is a massively wonderful platform for me to be able to stand on
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because people can ring in equally. Everyone's got a fair crack of the whip. Someone wants to have a swing at me, they can
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But if Elliot today was saying you can only come on if you're going to call James a C-word
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that's the only people we're taking on the show today are the people who are going to shout the C-word
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Keith, mate, not until it's your break, all right? If all you're going to do is come on and shout the C-word at me
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then they're the only people that can come on the show. And that, I'm afraid, Emma, is exactly what happened to Cathy Newman yesterday
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And I'll remind you of her words. Ever since interviewing the Reform Party spokesman Zia Youssef about this on Tuesday
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I've been deluged with misogynistic abuse and death threats on X. But also Instagram
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I just want to read you just a very small fraction of the post. So here's one
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Just watched your interview with Zia. You're a vile, rotten C-word. The question is, Cathy, are white lives more important than black lives
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And why do you feel that way? You need something between the eyes, and then there's a kind of target sign there
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Then the next one, you're a racist C-word that needs to be eliminated in capital letters
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31 minutes after 10, so I wish it was true that you can somehow fight the good fight on there
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but it is absolutely engineered so that you can't, and that's not an opinion
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That's counting. James O'Brien on LBC. Daphne writes, Elon wants you to, for Elon Musk
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wants you to feel like your fight makes a difference. That's the trick, but it's just the engagement that pays him
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I don't think Elon Musk cares about the money, does he? I mean, I presume he's never going to turn a profit
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on the investment that he made in Twitter, but he cares about the money in the sense that he can pay various racists
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Most of the racists posting hideous content about the United Kingdom aren't in the United Kingdom
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Did you know that? You've got some bloke in Asia who's worked out that he can make
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and certainly, of course, the income in some countries is going to go a lot further than it would here
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So I think the most recent case involves a Muslim lad somewhere on the subcontinent
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who'd realised that if he posts Islamophobic hatred on Twitter, he's going to make quite a decent quidditch out of it
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He's going to make quite a lot of money out of it. Various far-right MPs are making proper money out of it in this country
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So the money matters in the sense that Elon Musk can give it to racists, but it certainly doesn't matter to him
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And, of course, they're now paying for the sort of blue-tick validation
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that used to be confined to real people whose identity was clear to see
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or real organisations with reputations to protect and uphold. Now, Billy Buncher numbers with a bulldog avatar
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and 67 flags in his biography can pay Elon Musk a few dollars
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and look like he's a trusted entity. It hasn't just been broken
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it's been deliberately and completely destroyed. So why is the government still on there
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And I nudge the conversation now, both callers so far, of the view that people and individuals should stay there
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Tim certainly arguing that the government should as well. I would cautiously, and I hope not condescendingly suggest, that you're making the debate of thinking
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or the mistake of thinking that the debate on there is in any way real, because of course it isn't
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And why on earth would the government want to be on there
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when the owner and the algorithm are dedicated to not only the destruction of our democracy
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but also, in the case of the owner, civil war on our streets
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It's just beyond pathetic. I think the only reason we're having this conversation
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is it got so big so quickly. So it feels like trying to take the eggs out of a baked cake
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whereas, in fact, just press that button and it's gone. In fact, why not just regulate it
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So all of the people that have made death threats against Cathy Newman, if you can't work out
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who they are, you put the platform on the um, put the platform in the
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dock. Sorry, you are responsible for these public death threats. And maybe give them half an hour, or an hour
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If you don't take them down after half an hour or an hour, then we're coming after you for incitement to violence
29:12
or incitement to murder. And maybe, I don't know, go after the owner, even
29:16
I don't know, I'm not a lawyer. But my goodness me, if I published that, if I
29:20
said something like that, if I issued a death threat against somebody on this programme, I'd be in
29:24
trouble, LBC would be in trouble, Global would be in trouble. Ofcom would have an
29:28
aneurysm. They'd be, I mean, they'd be absolutely extraordinary. And yet, the people on there now, they can reach more
29:33
people than I can reach on my radio programme. Potentially, like, theoretically
29:38
Publishing death threats. No, it doesn't matter. It's just a bit of fun. It's freedom of
29:43
speech. Don't be so woke. It's extraordinary. Genuinely extraordinary. Dom's on the
29:49
wheel. Dom, what would you like to say? Morning, James. Happy Friday to you
29:53
Thank you very much, Dom. I think you just stole half my thunder there. I was voting to say
30:00
I phoned in to say that, as far as I'm concerned, all social media, not just X, should be treated as publishers
30:07
They're making money from what's being published on their sites by advert or by reach or by whatever, selling data
30:14
They should be held responsible. In the same way that the Times would, or the Daily Fail, or the Sun, or whichever old dead tree media is held accountable, supposedly
30:25
Obviously, part of the TV news. Is it, like I just said, and I'm sorry, I wouldn't have gone off on that stick if I'd known that was the point you were going to make
30:34
Is it because it rose so far so fast that we kind of, because it began with sort of nice pictures of cats
30:42
And before Musk came along and before Facebook changed, it could still be perceived as a force for good
30:48
That, of course, is why Musk bought it, because it was allowing ordinary people access to opinions that weren't bought and paid for by billionaires
30:55
and that's the thing that they're terrified of most. But is it because it got so big so quickly
31:01
that the idiocy, the absurdity of them being able to publish everything from death threats to blatant lies
31:06
to sexualised, fake sexualised images of children has somehow grown up in a vacuum
31:12
where nobody is ultimately responsible? I think there's a craving for validation
31:18
from government ministers, departments, individuals. I mean, there's some very respected journalists that I respect
31:24
I think they're good journalists I don't understand why they're still on X
31:29
a couple of them responded to me and said well I've got
31:33
250,000 followers clearly not a million James they're not James O'Brien no but that doesn't matter
31:38
I'm not being glib I don't think I matter much in this conversation
31:42
but they're saying they're terrified to come off because they're terrified of losing that reach
31:48
but they don't do any numbers anyway I think the algorithm is shutting them down anyway
31:53
Maybe they don't realise that they are not reaching people in anything like the scale that they would be
32:00
if they were posting, you know, AI lies about Henry Novak's murder
32:05
It is literally engineered to keep them in the darkness and to put the racists in the light
32:12
I think every decent government department, journalist, company, whatever, that goes on Xnow legitimises them
32:20
And as you say, their voice will be minimised and everybody will be fed more far-right rubbish
32:25
by the far-right owner. I came off it about three, four months after Musk bought it
32:30
I saw it start to happen straight away. I thought, I've got better things to do with my life
32:34
than be deliberately provoked into a rage. I don't want so much to be made angry
32:39
And a word, if you would, on the idea that that involves some sort of capitulation or surrender
32:46
You made a point better than I could regarding the playing field. It's not a playing field, it's a sewer
32:51
you're climbing down into a sewer and being force fed the contents of said sewer
32:55
whether you go down with a nice ham sandwich or you go down with a lovely bit of Battenberg cake
32:59
sorry it's filthy fried I'm thinking about my diet or lack of you're going to be force fed the same rubbish
33:06
that the owners of that sewer want to feed you it doesn't matter what your intentions are
33:10
you have no say in the matter and that is the big change
33:14
and maybe some people's experience doesn't reflect that but that is the reality of the bigger picture
33:19
thank you Dom In talking about things you can and can't say in this country, here's something
33:26
Imagine if a left-wing journalist had said this in the last couple of days
33:31
A feeling that with life having been comparatively kind to me, perhaps there is something I could put back
33:37
I have these thoughts about once every month, and usually they are ideally dismissed because they are either unrealistic or homicidal
33:44
For example, and this is the imaginary left-wing journalist commenting in a public forum
33:49
it would be well nigh impossible to smash every single white, middle-class, middle-aged right-winger in the throat
33:56
until his trachea exploded in a chiaroscuro of livid pink foam and vaporised black lung stuff
34:03
A left-wing... Imagine if Owen Jones wrote that about right-wingers. You probably would have heard a phoning about it already this morning
34:10
Owen Jones writing in The Guardian about how much he wants to punch every right-winger in the throat
34:15
until their trachea explodes in a chiaroscuro. I don't even know what that means, to be honest
34:19
I'm probably pronouncing it wrong. Of livid pink foam and black, vaporised black lung stuff
34:25
Way too many tracheas and not... That's anti-white racism, isn't it? Isn't it
34:30
Oh, no, hang on. It's Rod Liddle in The Spectator, a bloke that received a police caution for assaulting his own girlfriend
34:35
and once wrote about how he couldn't be a teacher because he wouldn't be able to stop himself raping all the children that he taught
34:41
That's acceptable in right-wing media in this country. Elon Musk looked at the media in this country
34:46
and thought, he looks at legacy media like The Spectator and thinks it's anti-white. So those double standards are extraordinary
34:54
and then along, already extraordinary, and then along comes Twitter to say
34:59
I'll tell you what, I'll tell you who we really need to be looking after in this country. Yeah, the victimised white people
35:06
Terence is in Chingford. Terence, the government, the government, the government. What should they do
35:10
Yes, I mean, I think the government should delegitimise Twitter, but I think my funder has been stolen in that I also think there ought to be some kind of legislation
35:20
to treat social media as publishing. I don't even go further than that, Ethan, because I think we all know that..
35:30
Sorry, I just need to issue a correction. I just said that Rod Liddell had received the police caution for the assault of his girlfriend
35:35
I should have said his pregnant girlfriend. Sorry, carry on. Carry on, Terrence
35:39
No worries there. But I think I want to go further than that because there are certain politicians who are exploiting social media and adding to the unrest for want of better description
35:53
And as you will know, public servants, judges, police, civil servants, they're bound by a code where they're not supposed to promote discrimination
36:04
They're supposed to promote fair treatment for everyone. but there's certain actors
36:10
they're just using social media to actually do the exact opposite I just wonder if MPs and the Lords
36:17
ought to be held by the same code as anybody else who works for the public
36:21
and if anybody incites racism or sexism or anything else How do you think this has happened
36:31
How do you think this has happened? I mean I mentioned that article by Lidl
36:34
because if he'd named someone specifically I presume that there'd be some sort of sanction in place
36:39
although newspapers aren't exactly heavily regulated. Broadcasters are. I mean, I can't even talk about question time last night
36:45
And I'm not going to say anything else about it because I'm frightened of all the reasons why I can't even mention question time last night
36:52
How has it happened? I'm puzzled, to be honest, because in any other business
36:57
if you make a project which harms people, you're held liable. And the company's held liable
37:02
and the directors and the CEO will be liable if they're negligent. Is it because it grew up? It sort of grew up around us
37:08
One of the first things I clocked by doing this show, we're going back 20 years now
37:13
was that the law was lagging way behind the technology when it came to the internet
37:17
I did a phone-in on if I post something libelous and the server is in America
37:21
and I in France and it about you and you in Chingford and the company is owned in China whose legislation would that libel come under
37:35
I think we ought to just say we don't care if it harms a Briton. The British law will deal with it
37:41
If you publish death threats against a British journalist, you will be sued
37:46
You will be shut down. Exactly. That's how it should be. And they used to do it
37:50
I mean, even though it was largely self-policing, you would be able to report this stuff
37:54
and it would be immediately... Not immediately, I mean, I probably had, again
37:59
a slightly rarefied experience, but generally speaking... Yeah, I do remember a couple of things that they didn't take down
38:06
that I was slightly surprised by, but a death threat, I'm pretty sure. The C word used to be a fairly dark yellow to red card
38:14
I mean, it could be done internally, but there's no way Elon Musk's going to do it
38:18
unless he absolutely has to. I think the other thing which crosses my mind as well
38:24
Well, there's two things. One... What are you doing? Making a sandwich? Yeah. It seems to be..
38:30
Some people seem to be making a living out of it. I don't know if you remember Wayne O'Rourke
38:35
who got jailed for his partner for Arges riots. No. He was making a fair amount of money on Twitter for..
38:42
He's on benefits, but he's also making about 1,500 quid a month making Twitter..
38:47
Yeah, a sort of professional keyboard warrior, and that's what I meant earlier
38:52
when I was talking about Elon Musk isn't in it for the money, but he's using his money to fund people like the character you referred to
39:00
who was, I think, jailed for three years at Lincoln Crown Court
39:04
for stirring up racial hatred during the Farage riots. You're absolutely right
39:08
And only 90,000 followers, you see. So he would be getting more promotion and more eyeballs than me with 1.4 million
39:16
And that hasn't happened by accident. So it's not even democratic in a vague sense or a sick sense
39:21
It's entirely bogus. And I don't know, it feels like one of those moments
39:26
where we're going to look back and go, how on earth was that allowed to go on for so long
39:30
Of course the government should be off that platform, and of course the people publishing death threats
39:36
should be facing the full force of the law in the same way that I would
39:42
if I now made a death threat against someone specific. I presume I could say what Rod Liddle wants to say
39:48
about people he doesn't agree with politically. I just never would. because, well, I suppose just because I'm quite well brought up, really
39:56
I would never speak like that about anybody, even somebody that I disagreed with quite passionately
40:01
It's just a little bit weird. But then again, I would never assault my pregnant girlfriend
40:05
or opine about the fact that I can't be a teacher. I could never have been a teacher
40:10
because I wouldn't have been able to stop myself raping the pupils. I guess we're just made of different stuff
40:14
James O'Brien on LBC. 10.51 is the time. A couple of texts before we get back to the phones
40:21
Kate writes, the real non-bot Twitter sewer dwellers are gone. There's no debate
40:26
There's no discussion. There's no exchange of views. It's hatred. Pure, vile bigotry
40:31
All this help the argument stuff is utter rubbish. They've gone. And a statistically significant amount of them will never change
40:39
I didn't really realize until yesterday, but it's full on idiot's corner time
40:43
And the bots haven't just spread information but created a hate environment where the keyboard
40:47
warrior is now utterly emboldened. I think you can only really understand how some columnists and politicians, I'm thinking of sort of Kemi Badenok and most of the Telegraph crew, can hold the opinions they hold unless they are permanently in the environment that Kate describes
41:04
Because it's an alternative. It's a fake, a false universe where it feels like we're teetering on the brink of civil war
41:10
And just go out of the house, guys. Seriously. Just get out of the house. Go for a nice walk
41:14
go into your nearest big town or city and take in a show
41:18
or go to an outdoor space I mean this is still an absolutely beautiful country
41:26
I did the State of London thing with Sadiq Khan the other night and it's not annually
41:31
that I check up the statistics on this stuff because I need to be across them
41:37
on a fairly regular basis but it's only when we're putting together the
41:40
State of London debate that we that I really see the clarity of the numbers
41:47
Here are some facts, right? This is Met Police data, and it could not be more of a contrast
41:53
with what you will see on Elon Musk's rancid platform. So mobile phone thefts in London
42:01
are obviously a massive problem and rising, about 80,000 reported in recent years
42:07
There have been 1,150 fewer knife crime offences recorded in the year leading up to August 2025
42:15
I mean, that is improvement. Teenage homicide has dropped to its lowest level since 2012
42:25
There were 97 homicides recorded in 2025 in London, the lowest figure since 2014
42:31
That works out at 1.1 for every 100,000 people. I think it's lower than any city in the UK
42:38
It's certainly less than half of New York. it's less even than Toronto and Milan
42:42
New York is 2.8, Toronto and Milan are 1.6. Violent offences resulting in injury in 2025
42:49
are 5.1% lower than in 2024. And hospital admissions, since the mayor set up a violence reduction unit in 2019
42:58
hospital admissions for young people for knife assault have fallen by 43%
43:03
But you'll hear some American voice on your radio being interviewed by people who haven't done their research
43:09
claiming that we've got big problems in this country and America is a paragon of peace and harmony
43:15
I mean, it is just insane. I don't know where the regulation should end
43:19
I mean, obviously, someone publishes death threats, then both the person making the death threat
43:24
and the person publishing the death threat should be on the hook for a crime. They just should be. At the moment, they're not
43:31
Or at least the publisher isn't, because some people do get hauled over the coals for it
43:36
It depends on whether or not the police have got the energy and the inclination to do it
43:39
because they're not going to get any help from the platform. You call for a pogrom in Britain in 2024
43:46
and you may end up in jail. But only if your call for a pogrom
43:50
picks up the sort of coverage that Twitter is now engineered to provide
43:56
So that Lucy Conley woman ends up in jail for calling for a pogrom in this country
44:02
But apparently that is an exercise in freedom of speech and some sort of folk heroism
44:07
according to Nigel Farage's crew. He, of course, is, when it's his safety that's at risk
44:13
reporting, well, telling the media that one of his homes has been firebombed
44:17
where the police say, we haven't been informed of anything like that. We were investigating a burglary at one of his houses
44:23
but no one said anything to us about a firebomb. But that, of course, is a question for him to answer
44:27
if he ever finds himself in a studio occupied by somebody who's not dedicated to tickling his tummy
44:32
um so twitter is a place where lies thrive why is the government there why is the government there
44:41
rory's in bognoregis rory what would you like to say hello james um yeah um i would agree with
44:48
most almost all of what you've said so far um twitter is like an alternative reality and
44:54
the debate and discourse has gone um i made a choice in the end to come off of it I agonised for years and actually understand most of the things a lot of callers have said about wanting to remain in the debate and maybe have discourse and provide alternative opinions
45:13
But in the end, that really became obvious. It wasn't effective. And when you got down to the Grok incidents with the CSAM images
45:24
And at that point, when Musk was clearly uninterested in doing anything about it unless he was forced to, I essentially made the decision that I couldn't kind of credit his platform by using it anymore
45:39
So I came off of it. The government, when they say we need to reach people, it's one of the only ways in which we can inform people
45:49
It's one of the only ways in which we can put stuff out there
45:53
What would you say to that? I would say that I think X or Twitter has moved beyond that now
46:02
It's really just fodder for people to tear everything down. I don't think it's an effective communication tool for the government
46:10
Why do you think they think it is? Do you think that they're just a little bit behind the curve
46:15
I think there's a game at play with Musk personally. I think there is a game of influence and a game of almost political
46:24
although I realise Musk isn't a political figure. Well, he is. He's not a politician, but he's a very political figure
46:30
Well, yeah, absolutely. And X is essentially the same as the sun
46:35
It provides no profit for any of these genius moneymakers that own them
46:41
It allows them to exercise enormous influence over public discourse, including in this country
46:47
And we've seen Musk go from massively pushing reform to now he clearly seems to be bankrolling Tommy Robinson
46:55
and maybe moving more towards... Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, if you would. Sorry, his correct name, yeah
47:01
So I think all this is is Musk continually showing his influence
47:06
Now reforms seem to be kind of embedded as a normal part of our political discourse in this country
47:13
he's now showing them that he can affect them negatively if he wanted to when they, if and when they gain any kind of traction in government
47:22
Yes, I mean, you know, a nice little monopoly on far-right dissemination you've got there
47:28
Be a shame if something happened to it. Seems to be the message that Nigel Farage is receiving from Elon Musk at the moment
47:34
which possibly explains his hideous conduct this week because if that wasn't appeal, an appeal to the very worst of human nature
47:41
then I don't know what was. So, yeah, there is no real case
47:45
I mean, the idea that just the government managed perfectly well before it existed, didn't they
47:51
I'm pretty sure they did. And also, I suppose, I don't know if this would be suboptimal
47:56
if the government comes off it and the journalists don't, then anything the government says and does is still going to be reported by the journalists
48:03
It's just the validation that is provided by... Well, it's state-sanctioned, isn't it
48:07
It's a state-sanctioned propaganda hate platform. and it's state-sanctioned not just because the state allow it
48:13
but because the state are on it. It's state-validated. It's state-vindicated. The platform on which Cathy Newman, and she's just one example
48:22
that's the most recent in my mind and among the most recently egregious
48:27
she is being abused and threatened with death on a platform that the government used
48:33
And that cannot be in any universe sustainable. But, you know, now up pops some weirdo to claim that to stop the death threats would be to infringe freedom of sleep
48:43
James O'Brien on LBC. Four minutes after 11 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
48:51
We have a slightly different conversation next and I like this. Gary Southgate. He's a force for good, isn't he
49:01
I kind of wish we could hear more from Gary Southgate. You can hear a lovely Full Disclosure episode with him from earlier this year
49:07
Today's is a bit of a doozy. Don't take my word for it. Clive the Engineer, formerly of this parish
49:12
stopped me in the corridor earlier to say that the subject of this week's Full Disclosure
49:16
is one of his all-time favourite people. He doesn't understand why genius is not more widely appreciated
49:22
And I could not agree more. Gary Southgate's genius, I think, is fairly widely appreciated
49:28
And it's funny, isn't it, to think about what he... And the dramatisation by James Graham of his extraordinary behaviour as England manager when faced with rampant racism has been on your televisions recently
49:41
Of course, Dear England is a beautiful piece of work that he's never seen for reasons he explains in the episode of Full Disclosure that we recorded together
49:52
But, you know, you kind of need voices like his at a time when your media is dominated with lies about the police being somehow biased against white people
50:00
lies that are obviously very, very carefully cultivated to grease Nigel Farage's passage into Downing Street
50:07
because the client journalists who told you Boris Johnson would be brilliant
50:11
and Liz Truss was a financial genius and Donald Trump was going to be great for the world
50:15
and Benjamin Netanyahu would be good for Israel and good for the whole Middle East
50:19
and austerity would be wonderful and George Osborne was... Anyway, all of that lot, they want Farage next
50:26
They want to have another go. They are of the view that if you keep banging your head against the brick wall, then eventually the brick wall will yield and your head will be absolutely fine
50:36
So they can't obviously promote him on the grounds of policies or on the grounds of his record or on the grounds of decency
50:42
So it will have to be the racism that carries him into Downing Street, which is why they're all joining in
50:48
it's why the um the newspapers that brought you all of the things that i list on a daily basis
50:53
are now competing to disappear further up nigel farage's hideous fundament um and it is voices
51:01
like gary southgate's of course that briefly looked as though they might be able to break
51:05
that spell the spell of bigotry that we saw during black lives matter protests and the hideous abuse
51:13
of england football players by the kind of people currently being persuaded and currently seeking to
51:17
persuade you that anti-white racism exists in our police forces. Shall I just do a quick reminder for
51:23
people who missed it of what the police force that is racist against white people does to black
51:29
people? Okay, all right, if you insist. The police force accused of anti-white racism after officers
51:33
response to the murder of Henry Novak is more than five times as likely to stop black people
51:39
for stop and search as it is white people. So God knows what it would look like if it wasn't
51:46
biased against white people. And what would, seriously, if Hampshire police wasn't biased against white people
51:52
how much more likely would a black person be to be stopped and searched
51:55
Because at the moment, if you're black and you're in Hampshire, you're five times more likely to be stopped and searched
51:59
than if you're white. But they're biased against white people, don't forget that
52:03
So what would that figure be in a parallel universe? Or even if the playing field was level
52:09
if they weren't horribly biased against white people, how much more likely would you be to be stopped and searched in Hampshire
52:14
Because at the moment it's five times more likely, but they're biased against white people. So I can't help wondering what it would be
52:20
But the days when Gareth Southgate's letter resonated around the country letter to England dear England and when people even possessed of Farraghist views paused briefly to pretend that they were moved by it and perhaps they put on their treacly voices
52:36
while suggesting that this was what we wanted to see and this was wonderful, before reverting to type
52:42
they seem a very long way away at the moment, don't they? And he's weighed into a slightly different
52:47
or into slightly different territory lately. And I would like to know what you think about it
52:54
he's a good man, Gary Southgate, and he's a proper thinker. There's still a great deal of snobbery in this country
53:02
when it comes to sports people in general, and footballers in particular
53:07
There is a sense that if they play football, they can't be clever. I remember when Graham Lassau received abuse
53:13
for reading a broadsheet newspaper instead of toilet walls, which seems to be what some middle-class commentators think
53:19
that footballers should be confined to perusing. and gareth southgate i think they're good friends actually gareth and and graham lesso that they are
53:26
thinkers they are intellectual people do you know as a mark of that snobbery i can tell you that
53:32
steve copple has a degree because that was somehow man bites dog territory when i was growing up
53:39
steve copple the former manchester united manage uh player has has a degree and that was so rare
53:46
at the time that it was noteworthy. I mean, I must have picked that up 40 years ago
53:52
and it was stuck in my brain. The main reason why footballers don't have degrees
53:56
is that they have to dedicate themselves to football from an incredibly early age. That doesn't mean they're not bright
54:02
It doesn't mean they can't think and it doesn't mean they're not worth listening to, particularly footballers who've been through
54:08
the experiences that someone like Gary Southgate has been through, particularly, again, in public
54:13
So when he announces that he's turning his attention to male toxicity
54:19
to depression, to low self-esteem, I think we should all pay attention
54:25
These are issues that he addressed last year in the Richard Dimbleby lecture
54:29
that he gave to the BBC, a very rare voice, criticising online misogynists who were, in his words
54:36
prepared to manipulate and trick young men into believing that success is measured by money or dominance
54:44
There's an article in the Times today in which he explains so many boys are now lost
54:50
it worries me. And it's a rather splendid interview in which he suggests one thing that I want to focus on first
54:59
and that is that boys and girls should be taught differently in order to get the best out of them
55:06
I don't fully understand the conversation this week, and the way in which we can talk about how awful it is that people are treated
55:16
differently by the police, and the way in which many people are pretending not to understand what
55:21
that means. The best way I can illustrate it to you would be to say that if somebody were to throw
55:27
bacon at me in the street, the fact that I am neither Jewish nor Muslim, nor vegetarian for
55:32
that matter, means that it would be a very different assault than if I were Jewish or Muslim
55:38
or a vegetarian. And whether or not there should be a difference in charges brought or criminality
55:45
I do not know. But there is a clear difference in intent. If you leave a pig's head outside a mosque
55:51
you are doing something very different from what you are doing if you leave a pig's head outside
55:55
a church, a Catholic church. And ditto a synagogue. If you leave a pig's head outside a synagogue
56:01
you're doing something sick and hateful. If you leave the pig heads outside a church
56:05
you're doing something weird. So that's what it means to treat different people differently
56:10
Okay? You might also extend it into stop and search territory. So if you're in Hampshire and you're black
56:17
you're five times more likely to be stopped and searched. So when the police stop you in Hampshire
56:22
perhaps they need to explain a little more to you about why you're being stopped and searched
56:26
than they would to a white person. Because you're black and you're five times more likely to be stopped and searched
56:32
These things are not hard to understand unless you are determined not to understand them
56:37
And then yesterday we learned that the NHS is to introduce further diversity training
56:44
further anti-unconscious bias training. But the headline, of course, talked about more training for NHS staff on anti-Semitism
56:52
It didn't mention most of the headlines, the fact that there'd also be training on anti-Muslim hatred
56:57
So while the national conversation is raging about anti-racism training, it is quietly being introduced further in the NHS
57:06
but everybody remains strangely silent about that because it doesn't fit the current narrative
57:11
of pretending that the police are biased against white people. So the idea that people need to be treated differently
57:20
based upon their immutable characteristics is oddly controversial this week. And Gareth Southgate has, by coincidence
57:31
popped up today talking about fundamental differences between boys and girls that mean
57:37
they should be taught differently the way boys in particular are taught in schools he said should
57:42
be changed to take account of their fundamental differences um only in this way he believes can
57:51
the crisis facing boys and young men who feel isolated and are struggling struggling with
57:56
education, employment, identity and mental health be addressed. I think anybody that's worked with
58:02
either sex at a younger age knows there are some fundamental differences. Now, in the spirit of
58:08
this week's programme, I haven't got any personal experience of working with younger people or
58:15
working with either sex at a younger age. I haven't got any experience at all of working with either
58:22
sex at a younger age. So, somewhat strangely, I mean, and I don't
58:26
even have it in my own home. I only have daughters. So I haven't got any experience
58:30
of working with both sexes at a younger age as a father. Obviously, we've had boys in the house
58:36
and I've got nephews and godson, I've got godson galore. I love
58:40
them all. But I don't have any particular insights into what the fundamental, you know, I tell you what
58:46
the extent of my knowledge is on this, and I'm probably exaggerating
58:50
slightly, but I'm not sure I am. So the extent of my knowledge on this is that if boys are playing in the next room and parents are sitting in this room, if it goes quiet, the parents will worry. Right
59:08
if girls and listen this may well mark me out as some sort of low-level sexist i don't know bring
59:14
it bring it you know bring it all but this is my personal experience if girls are playing in the
59:20
next room and it gets very loud something very noisy happens then the parents will worry um
59:29
in my case it was a boy and a girl it was me and my sister playing in the next room
59:33
fairly quietly, but we were treating the wardrobe as a spaceship on a Sunday morning, and mum
59:39
and dad were in bed next door, and we climbed into the spaceship and sat in compartments
59:46
quite high up on the shelving, and of course the wardrobe detached itself from the wall
59:50
and crashed to the floor. So that would be a, oh lord, that's not supposed to happen
59:55
noise, but if it were boys, it would be, oh lord, what have
59:59
They done now noise. So, would it be too trite of me to ask
1:00:05
what are those fundamental differences? Because we have put some effort, I personally think erroneously
1:00:14
into pretending that they don't exist. And I'm not talking about stereotyping
1:00:18
Of course, some girls will want to play with guns, maybe no children should play with guns
1:00:22
and some boys will want to play with dolls, and we shouldn't condition them into thinking that they can't
1:00:27
But I don't think, until you tell me otherwise, that it is controversial of Gareth Southgate to suggest that there are fundamental differences between boys and girls
1:00:42
And that the way they are both taught at the moment, this is where it perhaps gets a little bit more complex, is more deleterious to the interests of boys than it is to the interests of girls
1:00:52
He suggests it might require a slightly different approach when we're educating and developing young men compared to educating and developing young women
1:01:02
So just when you think I couldn't be even less qualified to have this conversation, I have to tell you that I haven't attended, that I didn't attend school with a female between the ages of seven and 18
1:01:15
I attended uniform, I mean oddly, my experience must be close to unique
1:01:20
When I was six, I was the only boy in my class. When I was seven, I began upon an educational career
1:01:26
that didn't admit a single girl until I got to university. So I couldn't be more messed up, really, could I
1:01:32
when it comes to a conversation like this? I have no idea what the fundamental differences are
1:01:37
or what the system should do differently. But happily, I present a radio phoning programme
1:01:43
and I can invite you to tell me. Is he right? Is he right
1:01:49
should boys and girls, because if you're going to teach boys and girls differently
1:01:53
I would suggest you probably need to teach them separately. Wouldn't you
1:01:58
I don't know if he goes quite that far, but I don't quite get how you teach them differently if you don't teach them separately
1:02:05
One of the things that surprised me most during that extraordinary explosion of misogyny in schools
1:02:12
and it started in West London private schools, that campaign, was that I somewhat naively thought that if you went to school with girls
1:02:21
you'd be less likely to be misogynistic. Speaking as someone that never went to school with girls
1:02:27
I thought that if you're with girls every day, then you're going to be less susceptible to misogyny
1:02:33
I suppose somewhat naively, I also used to think that, you know
1:02:37
if you've got a mum, you might be a bit less susceptible to misogyny
1:02:41
because all you have to do, but now I sound like, anyway. But going to school with girls, a bit like racism, you know
1:02:49
If you're a very mixed school, then you would recognize your commonality and what you have in common
1:02:55
And I think that can be true and perhaps generally is true. But it's definitely not guaranteed
1:03:00
So, listen, there's a lot to get through here. The problem we've got
1:03:05
is that most people probably can't comment on this
1:03:14
Because if you went to a single-sex school and you're a boy
1:03:18
you probably got taught differently from how you would have been taught if you were a boy in a mixed school
1:03:23
And if you went to a single-sex school and you're a boy, you probably don't know how you would have been taught differently
1:03:28
if you'd been in a mixed school. So who actually has the perspective to comment on this
1:03:34
What Gary Southgate says feels, feels, correct me, but I'm not one for trusting my feelings
1:03:43
I much prefer the facts, and that's where you could come in. So, should boys be taught differently from girls
1:03:48
Should boys be taught separately from girls? And what happened to you? 0345 6060 973
1:03:54
If you moved from single sex to mixed, or from mixed to single sex
1:03:59
and you were old enough to notice, because I wasn't. I went from being the only boy in the class at the age of six and three quarters
1:04:05
to being in a class containing only boys at the age of seven. So I wasn't old enough to notice what changed
1:04:11
I had fewer crushes, I suppose but what what differences are there and
1:04:20
is Gareth Southgate right? hit the numbers now, you will get through 03456060973
1:04:28
and if you're a teacher I mean obviously if you're a teacher you're going to be particularly well qualified to comment on this
1:04:32
but what differences would you introduce? how would you teach differently from boys
1:04:36
I sometimes worry that I throw too many questions at you so let me just focus in on the ones that interest me most
1:04:40
what happened to you what did you notice when you moved from mixed to single or single to mixed sex
1:04:46
schooling as a teacher of course what differences do you note when you teach single sex classes
1:04:51
opposed to mixed sex classes and if we are going to teach boys differently to girls to get the best
1:04:56
out of them what would that involve and what would that mean 0345 6060 973 james o'brien on lbc
1:05:06
I don't want to turn this into a competition, but could this be the subject that I am least qualified to offer an opinion on
1:05:13
I am the father of exclusively girls. I attended exclusively boys' schools from the age of 7 to 18
1:05:21
And when I was six and three quarters, I was the only boy in a class at a convent run by nuns
1:05:26
I mean, that is the most absurd background to a conversation about whether boys and girls should be taught together and or differently
1:05:33
How can I possibly have an opinion? Ian. You'll be surprised to learn that I do. I think Gary Southgate's probably right
1:05:38
but I'd struggle to tell you why, which is where you come in. Deborah's in Sidcup. Deborah, what would you
1:05:42
like to say? Hello, James. Hello, Deborah. Despite the fact that you're not qualified and I've
1:05:46
spoken to you before, still very nervous. Oh, it's only me. It's only me
1:05:50
Carry on. That's why I'm terrified. I worked in early years for nearly, all nearly, 30
1:05:56
years, mainly in nursery and reception, which is up to age six
1:06:00
And the last school I worked in, before I retired, we did
1:06:04
start teaching the boys in slightly different ways. We found different ways to engage them
1:06:10
because we did find they needed a different approach. There's always a free flow
1:06:16
and an outside area in those years and you can go in and out and do
1:06:20
active or not active. But we found that the boys often found it hard to concentrate or
1:06:26
didn't want to spend time sitting at the table writing imaginative things. And some of the boys, some
1:06:32
The boys would, don't get me wrong, but in the main they struggled. They liked something practical and while they were still active
1:06:39
So one instance that comes to mind, we set up outside with cars and with the little buildings
1:06:45
and we had them saying, you need a license to drive these cars
1:06:50
so you have to write a license with your name and you have to write some of the numbers of the car
1:06:55
If you get a parking ticket, people are giving out parking tickets, they will write you a ticket
1:07:00
and it was a way of getting them to form letters, write their name, understand about the written word
1:07:07
We had crossover. As I say, some girls would come out and do it. So it wasn't prescriptive then
1:07:12
I mean, and would the girls coming out to do it, they wouldn't get bullied
1:07:17
You'd have to be careful, wouldn't you, to make sure that they weren't feeling weird or bullied
1:07:21
No, we weren't prescriptive. And as I say, there would be some boys writing beautifully imaginative works and quite happy to sit at a table for a reasonable amount of time And we have girls outside joining in But we did find that those boys that were harder to engage with writing
1:07:36
were more willing to be engaged with writing if it was in a scenario like that
1:07:42
more practical and more active. So we're talking about plurality or majorities, really, aren't we
1:07:50
We're not talking about entire constituencies. So most boys benefit from being treated differently from girls in school
1:07:59
taught differently from girls in school. I think it would be good to look at the boys or the girls
1:08:06
because something might need to be slanted there, and say, as a cohort, in the main, some of them are struggling with this
1:08:13
how can we tailor it more in a way that they find more engaging
1:08:17
how do we think the ways in which boys are taught at the moment are contributing to their
1:08:27
vulnerability to toxic masculinity and and and online misogynists um do you mean in in in their attitude rather than their learning anything at all really i mean
1:08:39
they're coming because they seem to be particularly ripe for the likes of um andrew tate and similar
1:08:46
I firmly believe that mixed schools are the way forward. I mean, my grandson is 10
1:08:50
and we are hoping that he will go to a mixed secondary school
1:08:55
Yeah, but... I mean, I don't know. I haven't got any evidence. Nobody has
1:08:59
But I can't believe that Tate's following is going to be culled from, you know, majority single-sex schools
1:09:04
No, I don't suppose it is. I think if you want to avoid them following someone like Andrew Tate
1:09:12
you've just got to bring them up as a decent human being. I mean, it's got nothing really to do..
1:09:17
I mean, if they are a good person, which you want them to be first and foremost
1:09:22
regardless of whether they're... Before you look at their gender, they're not likely to follow
1:09:28
Ooh. I mean, I might nod along to that until I sort of remember some of the cases
1:09:34
that I've come across and some of the mothers that I've spoken to expressing absolute horror
1:09:38
at what has happened to their children. I think it's partly why that drama
1:09:43
adolescence was so extraordinarily effective because it was the first time many people
1:09:49
realized that really nice, well-brought-up boys could be susceptible to that sort of
1:09:54
thing as well. But, I mean, you can be right and wrong at the same time, can't you
1:09:59
I don't get, personally, how the mixed schools end up breeding the misogyny, not just the
1:10:06
susceptibility to figures like Tate, but also the behaviour towards their own
1:10:13
female classmates that we learned so much about two or three years ago
1:10:17
Deborah, thank you. From Sidcup to Cardiff. Joanna is there. Joanna, what would you like to say
1:10:22
Hi, James. Hello. I didn't realise I felt so strongly about this until I
1:10:26
started thinking about it. No, until I started talking about it. Until you started talking about it
1:10:32
That's a little bit of mansplaining for you. Just for the record. And I apologise
1:10:37
That was an unforgivable intervention. Go on. So I have two daughters
1:10:41
They are eight and ten. Yes. And they are very loud. Very
1:10:47
I often use the term feral about them. They are wild. And I guess I come at this from the perspective of this isn't about gender
1:10:58
No. This is about how children learn. And my kids are both on the pathway for a neurodiversity assessment
1:11:08
And I suspect there's definitely ADHD there and possibly some autism as well
1:11:14
Okay. And I think I see that in myself as well. I'm also on the wait list for assessment
1:11:19
And I certainly see in my eldest that she just learns differently
1:11:24
She's intelligent, but academically she struggles in terms of, you know, memorising dates or understanding
1:11:34
learning in the way that other kids seem to learn. And I don't think that this is about gender
1:11:42
I think this is about neurodiversity and about brain chemistry and how children and adults, for that matter, learn
1:11:53
I suppose gender could be one of the big signifiers of different brain chemistry, couldn't it
1:11:58
And in a way, that's what Gary Southgate probably means when he uses the word fundamental differences
1:12:05
Yeah, and I think I would... If this were to happen, I would feel that my girls were missing out
1:12:12
because I think they would require that more practical... They might benefit from the more, quotes
1:12:18
boyish model of education. And I think they would. And I guess just the other point that I would say
1:12:25
I think given where we are in society at the moment, with this increasing divide between males and females
1:12:32
I think splitting the genders would be really detrimental. And yeah, I mean, the campaign was called Everyone's Invited
1:12:40
I don't know if you remember, it kicked off in 2022 or thereabouts
1:12:44
when it was top London private schools, which I had a particular interest in at the time
1:12:49
because my girls went to them, although they went to all girls' schools
1:12:53
So they were completely immune to this outbreak of misogyny and sexual harassment
1:12:58
It only went on in the mixed schools. So up until that point, I would have agreed with you
1:13:04
But actually, my daughters went through school, and at least when they were at school, they were spared sexism and misogyny
1:13:13
But for girls who were at mixed schools, it's become, and certainly if you remember the details of that Everyone's Invited campaign
1:13:21
It was like a sort of junior me too. It was heartbreaking
1:13:25
It was horrifying what was going on. So I'm not 100% sure that mixed schools are the answer to these problems
1:13:31
No, perhaps. Out of interest, with the all-boys school, were the results similar
1:13:39
Was there increased misogyny amongst those boys? We were mostly frightened of girls
1:13:45
Right. I don't know whether that... I mean, you were right to be. Well, thank you, Joanna
1:13:50
I would never have dreamt of saying that out loud on the radio, but we were mostly frightened of girls, and for good or for ill
1:13:57
And when I speak to, well, since I had therapy and wrote about it
1:14:01
quite a number of women from my social class have confided in me
1:14:07
about what they have described as emotionally absent partners and exes, men that went to schools like mine, single sex, public schools particularly
1:14:17
who not only have that, they're well-meaning men and they want to be better partners quite often
1:14:23
but they lack something in their emotional palette that comes from having been raised in an exclusively male environment
1:14:31
So there are downsides, but I'd be fascinated to see some research
1:14:35
on where misogyny sat on that spectrum. Yeah, yeah. And I wouldn't even like to speculate
1:14:41
but I think you're obviously right. This is about differences that will not be defined exclusively
1:14:46
but probably are defined largely by gender and that of course means
1:14:52
that the new scheme would have to be perforated which I think is the point Deborah was making is that if this is like a guillotine as opposed to a perforated line then it would be awful for a small number
1:15:07
but a significant number of children. So I wonder what the differences would look like
1:15:10
How do boys benefit from being taught differently from girls? Let's bring some teachers into the conversation
1:15:16
0345 6060 973 is the number you need. If you're teaching them at the moment
1:15:21
and you've got a little earpiece in because it's so boring, then just pretend you're going out for a wee or something
1:15:25
Step into the corridor and give me a ring. James O'Brien on LBC
1:15:30
I'm 35 and we're having a conversation for which I may be the least qualified contributor in the country
1:15:37
Do boys benefit from being taught differently to girls? Don't ask me
1:15:42
I was the only boy in my class at the age of six and three quarters and from the age of seven to the age of 18
1:15:47
there were no girls in my class. So I literally couldn't be less qualified to conduct this conversation
1:15:51
which means it's a jolly good job that the switchboard is working. What do you think, and teachers as well
1:15:56
I'd quite like to get a teaching perspective on this and the differences between the three different classrooms
1:16:03
a classroom full of girls, a classroom full of boys, and a classroom with a healthy mix of both
1:16:09
Are there different challenges, or do we want to get a little bit Victorian and say that you teach everybody in exactly the same fashion
1:16:15
and anyone who can't cope, that's natural selection. That's survival of the fittest
1:16:21
Do you know, Theresa, you're my second caller from SIGCUP in the space of five minutes. What's going on
1:16:25
What's going on? Have all the televisions broken? Roll alert in SIGCUP
1:16:29
Roll alert. Roll on it in SIGCUP. No, listen, I'm an ex-secondary school teacher
1:16:34
and I taught mixed and girls. I haven't taught all boys, I have to say
1:16:38
But the one... And also, I think this is still true, that the research has always said
1:16:44
that boys do better academically in mixed schools. Why? Boys do better in single-sex schools
1:16:51
I'm not entirely sure, but it's academically. If you ask all the people and professors at universities
1:16:55
and them type of clever people, that's what they'll say. They'll say that boys do better in mixed schools
1:17:00
And I think it's partly because it takes an element of macho competition
1:17:04
and you behave yourself because you don't want the girls to think you're stupid. I don't know
1:17:09
That's my only anecdotal explanation at the moment. But that is certainly the case
1:17:14
As regards teaching them, when I was teaching mixed, yes you do teach them differently
1:17:19
you do approach them differently and also their response to you is different
1:17:23
for starters the girls would love to make I was a history teacher they would love to make loads of notes and go away and read stuff
1:17:29
and bring it back to you and write you an essay and the boys would go oh that's interesting, have you thought of it
1:17:33
in this perspective but never write a thing and then when it came to the exam
1:17:37
the boys would steam in and do really well and the girls would not do as well
1:17:41
it was weird I mean I am grossly what's the word? Generalising
1:17:47
That's the worst. Thank you. That's okay. We all do that. But that really interests me
1:17:51
So, I mean, I hate to do this to you. Go on then
1:17:55
You've raised the spectre of Michael Gove. Oh, God. I know. Where's my gun
1:18:00
I know. Well, careful. But Michael Gove, of course, reconstructed education in this country
1:18:08
to suit people like Michael Gove. Yeah. And I got a little bit sidelined by that
1:18:14
because I also benefit from the sort of education that suited Michael Gove
1:18:19
So I found myself going along with the idea of having more exams and more assessments and tests because I did well in them
1:18:25
But I wouldn't have known that it was something you could generalise into a boy-girl thing
1:18:30
Because girls generally get better exam results, don't they, when they do public exams
1:18:35
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, the rope learning thing, don't even get me on it
1:18:40
I mean, Gove just sort of cut off a whole generation of lower ability kids that out of exams
1:18:44
I know. That was the time I left education, quite frankly. I had two people doing my editing
1:18:49
But, yeah, I mean, the girls, girls generally are just more methodical
1:18:55
But the boys are more inspirational. Are we sure that's not entitlement
1:19:00
Are we sure that, because you know when I take calls from females and they say things like
1:19:04
oh, I'm probably not going to be very good. And I say, why does no man ever say that to me
1:19:08
And then they usually go on, these women callers, to be the best callers
1:19:12
of the hour. Is that not just the grown-up equivalent of what you're describing
1:19:16
I think there's some evidence of that. The boys are cocky. The boys are girls at more conference. But then again, having said that, I've known some very loud girls as well
1:19:23
So it's not really entirely generalised. But maybe, what always used to get me is that I'm a girl
1:19:29
and I could never work out how these lads did their exams, especially for something like history, without matters of notes
1:19:34
being stored away in their bedroom back home. But they did. My own son did it as well
1:19:38
So there's something about it. They don't need that level of didactic learning
1:19:42
They need something which is much more... There might be a bit of osmosis
1:19:46
There might be a bit of osmosis involved. I mean, by doing the arguing, we are absorbing ideas and information
1:19:53
And then the confidence issue comes back. And you sit down in an exam and you read a question
1:19:58
you think, I haven't got a Scooby-Doo. And I think if you're..
1:20:01
Some girls would panic at that point, and some boys would think, right, here we go
1:20:06
Here we go. I'm going to... There's something in that, definitely. I'm going to wade in
1:20:10
And would most papers be marked by men who are going to be more... No, by women, I should think
1:20:15
They'd be more... I mean, in my experience, yeah. That theory doesn't work then
1:20:18
So I'm not 100% sure, and I appreciate you never taught exclusively boys
1:20:24
I've met those sort of boys, no. I'm not 100% sure what you think the best way forward is
1:20:28
It is, for you, it's mixed with some reservations. Definitely, yeah. Okay, and I don't know if you can teach boys and girls differently
1:20:36
if they're all in the same classroom. We'll move on to that question as well, 20 to 12 is the time
1:20:42
The way boys are taught in schools should be changed to take account of their fundamental differences to girls
1:20:49
It's a week in which we are being told that people don't have fundamental differences
1:20:53
or at least if they do, they're not built upon ethnicity or beliefs
1:20:57
If you focus exclusively on immutable characteristics, fundamental differences, I find it a heck of a lot easier to believe
1:21:07
I don't think that human beings have fundamental differences, particularly, but I do think that if you were to break it down along male-female distinctions
1:21:17
then there are some. But they're generalities, they're not exclusivities. I love the caller who described her own daughters as feral
1:21:26
which oddly, and in a slightly unhelpful way, was used as a way of defining or describing more masculine
1:21:34
So really, we should all be accusing everyone of misandry now. And that's very timely as well, because remember, we live in a country where if you're white, middle class, middle aged, privately educated, heterosexual and in full possession of all your mental and physical faculties, then you are a victim
1:21:49
You are the person that is most likely to be exploited, discriminated against or exposed to racism
1:21:58
James is in Basingstoke. James, what would you like to say? Hi, James. First time caller, because I'm quite passionate about this subject
1:22:04
One day I'm going to do a show and you're only allowed to ring in if you're called James
1:22:09
I like that rule. I'll be there. I think it'd be a good rule. I'll save you a place. What do you want to say
1:22:13
So I've got a degree in coaching and management and teaching. Okay
1:22:18
And I coach and teach within schools and we often find ourselves covering other subjects
1:22:23
not just sport. So I worked across different schools Not Latin I bet No no no I not so good at that Go that No but I worked in schools with all boys all girls and mixed And I agree with Southgate
1:22:35
I do believe there are fundamental differences. Whether they're nature or nurture or a combination
1:22:40
I think is something we can't really know. I agree. But I do think that there is value in teaching people differently
1:22:48
And that's something I learned on my degree, is that, you know, in terms of looking at pedagogy
1:22:53
which is, you know, the science of teaching, it's not just boys and girls that should be taught differently
1:22:57
it's every individual there are so many different styles of learning and I do think that we should teach different people different things
1:23:04
because I find that girls often want to know why they're doing something when we're teaching
1:23:10
whereas boys will just generally go on an experiment and often are happier with failure
1:23:16
and accepting failure so those are two fundamentally different types of learning
1:23:20
gosh really, that's fascinating yeah, particularly within sport So we had a go, and it didn't work out, but I'm glad I did it
1:23:27
Whereas with a girl, there'd be much more self-flagellation involved and much more self-doubt
1:23:32
Exactly. And I think there's things like social media that have to play a part in that too, honestly
1:23:36
Even at the younger ages, Dan. Can you, in a mixed classroom, address mixed sensibilities
1:23:45
Yes, I think you can. It's difficult. You sound great, by the way. You sound like a really good teacher
1:23:50
I'm finding this really interesting. How do you do it? I appreciate it. Thank you. it's doable but it's difficult
1:23:54
and no one's denying that and this is why we have a problem
1:23:58
with class sizes being too big we just split people you know randomly and actually we don't
1:24:04
consider different learning styles that are needed and so I think that you can do it and I do
1:24:10
do it and you often do it through things like you'll talk through something, you'll put something
1:24:14
on the board, you'll have physical things they can do and you just mix the different
1:24:18
types of methodologies you can use to actually get through to people
1:24:23
Yeah. So you need to be fully engaged as a teacher, which sadly, but perfectly understandably
1:24:30
isn't going to be everybody. That's true in all jobs. There are some radio presenters who are far from fully engaged
1:24:38
And you also need to have the resources and the space to provide a little bit more bespoke education
1:24:45
And that would involve... I think it's important to bring boys and girls together
1:24:50
I agree with your notion that it's much harder to breed certainly misogyny when boys and girls are taught together
1:24:57
But I think that it's really important that there are times when we teach separate things to people because different things impact boys and girls
1:25:05
And there's no denying that. And, you know, at various different stages, there are different things that impact on each of them
1:25:11
And so in those life skills classes or PSHCE or whatever they call it now, those are the times that we have to teach people different things
1:25:20
And those are the times when you need to separate between boys and girls
1:25:24
And that's, you know, the same thing you do with sexual education. You separate classrooms
1:25:29
And I think those are the times when it's necessary. You need very different lessons, don't you
1:25:33
I mean, there'll be some where you want them to convene and come back together again. But when it comes to the biology of it, you're going to have very different needs
1:25:42
Personal, social, health and economic education. James is what you refer to
1:25:47
I just didn't want anyone to think me giggling was a mark of disrespect
1:25:52
It was just a mark of sympathy, struggling sometimes to keep up with the nomenclature
1:25:56
Yeah, I think you put it really well. And, of course, it's partly Osborne's razor, and partly it's the ghost of Gove
1:26:05
because Osborne's razor means you're less likely to have the resources that you need. And the ghost of Gove means that the system became engineered to exclude difference
1:26:14
to literally kind of cookie-cutter classrooms and turn them into places where kids do well
1:26:20
I'll tell you what I worry about. I worry about those schools where the headteachers boast about how strict they are
1:26:26
and then they get good exam results, and then no one ever keeps track of what happens next
1:26:33
I entirely personal and subjective worry this. I've got no basis for it
1:26:39
except entirely anecdotal and subjective experiences. I think some people peak in the sixth form
1:26:46
and the rest of their life then somehow never quite lives up to it
1:26:52
There's a brilliant Bruce Springsteen song about that, isn't there? Do you remember? Bruce Springsteen's a genius
1:26:58
I love that guy. I've discovered him quite late in life. But there's a brilliant Bruce Springsteen song
1:27:04
about people who kind of peaked in the sixth form. In his case, it's high school
1:27:08
and I worry sometimes when you see the schools that go full cookie cutter
1:27:13
and then you see the head teachers appearing on television describing themselves as the toughest headmistress in the world
1:27:19
or the toughest headmaster in Christendom and they're obviously going to get
1:27:23
a significant number of kids through the cookie cutter and the ones that don't fit the cookie cutter
1:27:30
they can fall by the wayside and get removed from the school or never into the school
1:27:34
because they're going to damage the overall grades But then they leave, and they're no longer living in a hothouse environment
1:27:41
They're no longer living in fear of punishment. They're no longer living in fear of humiliation in class or whatever
1:27:49
and everything just sort of spirals a bit. But I've got no basis for that, except a sort of instinctive worry
1:27:55
for the children who briefly benefit from the ministrations of a very Victorian education
1:28:02
Because, spoiler alert, the Victorians didn't. James O'Brien on LBC. Glory Days by Bruce Springsteen
1:28:11
That was the song I was thinking of. I mentioned to you a moment ago, I've discovered the boss quite late
1:28:16
I mean, I had born in the USA when I was a kid, and I obviously loved that
1:28:20
but I didn't really appreciate his sort of status as a chronicler of American life
1:28:25
working class life in many ways, and I have discovered it subsequently
1:28:30
Absolutely beautiful. But one artist I needed or I thought I knew everything about and needed very little help appreciating is George Michael
1:28:39
As you will know if you've listened to this programme on a regular basis, I bow to few in my love of and knowledge of George Michael's life and music
1:28:48
But I suspect that a chap who's going to be dropping by at half past twelve today may be even more of a fan
1:28:58
and he's written an entire book about it, so he's certainly in the lead at the moment
1:29:02
That is Satnam Sanghera, author of Tonight the Music Seems So Loud
1:29:07
who will be with us at half past twelve. Back to teaching
1:29:10
the differences between boys and girls and the question of whether or not those differences
1:29:14
whatever they may be, should and could constitute grounds for different modes and methods of teaching
1:29:22
Priscilla is in Ealing. Priscilla, what would you like to say? Hi
1:29:26
Yes, I'm fascinated in this subject, and I've got two short anecdotes
1:29:31
One is that there is an idea in studies that boys are much happier to have a go
1:29:37
and make mistakes and take that risk than girls are. And that's why boys are so much better at computer games
1:29:44
because they don't really mind. Oh, no, there goes my inbox. There goes my inbox
1:29:49
Now, God, you're trouble you've just got me into. That is very much Priscilla. I will give you Priscilla's address
1:29:54
at the end of this conversation. You can take your complaints to her if you think that it is outrageous to suggest that boys are
1:29:59
...federate computing. They generally do play them more. Generally. But I think it's because they're happy to make mistakes
1:30:06
And there's a really interesting thing is that... I'm giving up on the new James Bond film. I can't get..
1:30:11
I can't... Flipping heck, it's tough at the outset. I don't quite... Anyway, that's not necessarily what you rang in for
1:30:18
Professor Sir Robert Winston went to a West London girl school and he spoke to the whole school and assembly
1:30:24
and asked them a couple of questions and hardly any hands went up or none
1:30:28
No hands went up. And he said, wow, this is really fascinating because this is science being played out in your school
1:30:35
If I was asking these questions in a boys' school, all the hounds would go up and they wouldn't really mind if they got the answer wrong
1:30:41
They would just have a go. So I think that's really, really interesting. And therefore, what do you do in a classroom where there's girls and boys and the boys are happy to have a go and don't mind if they get it wrong and the girls don't
1:30:51
Does that mean that the girls get less chance to experiment because of the fact that they're girls
1:30:57
and the other thing that I think was really fascinating I remember accompanying a class of children
1:31:03
on a pond dipping outing to one of the parents' houses and for the first like 12 minutes
1:31:12
we had all the children with their nuts and their buckets and they were utterly fascinated
1:31:17
all looking and really engaged and really focused and literally after 12 minutes
1:31:23
all the girls stayed there and they were completely fascinated but not all the boys rampaged around the garden
1:31:29
It was so noticeable. And I think there's something about the need to move
1:31:33
there's something about focus, etc. So I know those are just general ideas
1:31:38
but I'm really pleased that Gareth Southgate's thought this was up. Don't do that. Look what you just did
1:31:47
Oh, you see? Yep. Isn't that funny? Isn't that funny? Isn't that funny, yeah
1:31:52
I wouldn't get a mail caller. A mail caller wouldn't get to the end and go, well, I know it's just this and that
1:31:57
The mail caller would get to the end of it and going, and you should stick that on a T-shirt. Yeah, exactly
1:32:02
But where's I'm going to Southgate for talking about this? Let's have these discussions
1:32:06
Let's have these discussions indeed. And work, because what you say is, I think, going to resonate with people
1:32:11
who haven't been in a classroom for 50 years. They're going to go, yeah, of course, that's what the boys would do
1:32:15
Especially if there was a football in the garden or something like that, or a tree to climb. The girls will remain fascinated
1:32:20
by the little creepy crawlies that are coming out of the pond
1:32:25
Pond dipping, just for the record, involves dipping things into ponds, like jam jars and examining the results
1:32:30
not dipping the children into the ponds. Priscilla? Yes. Good. It is 11.55
1:32:37
You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Just for Russell's benefit
1:32:40
because we're discussing the effectiveness of bespoke education, what do you mean by cookie cutter
1:32:47
I mean everything is exactly the same. So if you've got a cookie cutter, Russell
1:32:51
then you cut your cookies, and all the cookies are identical, like gingerbread men
1:32:55
whereas think of it as a one-size-fits-all philosophy. I thought everybody knew that, but you live and learn
1:33:04
Natasha Clark, I live and learn, has been with the Prime Minister this morning. Why? And what happened
1:33:09
Good afternoon, James. Sorry, nearly afternoon, afternoon of four minutes. Yeah, I've been with the Prime Minister today in Swindon
1:33:16
He's been visiting a drones manufacturer all ahead of the Defence Investment Plan
1:33:21
which we do expect to be coming very shortly. So essentially this is how much money the government are going to spend on our defence going into the future
1:33:30
There's been a long running route about this. The government has been long basically trying to tell defence contractors in the Ministry of Defence
1:33:38
we are going to find this money for you, but we need to figure out exactly how we're going to pay for it
1:33:43
Now, LBC spoke with Lord George Robertson. He was one of the architects of the government's defence review earlier this week
1:33:50
He did warn us that this is going to come with a price. He said that there is going to be likely cuts to departmental budgets in order to pay for this new defence investment plan
1:34:01
So I wanted to put those comments to the Prime Minister today to ask him
1:34:04
is it true that we're going to have to pay for this with some cuts to departments
1:34:10
Well, obviously, I've always said we're going to have to spend more on defence
1:34:14
And so we will set out the funding in relation to defence investment plan
1:34:18
It is about a question of priorities. and this is the top priority
1:34:23
I think everybody watching or listening to this will know in their heart of hearts
1:34:27
that that has to be the top priority, defending our country, particularly at the moment
1:34:33
It does come with huge opportunities because I'm absolutely determined that every penny that we spend extra on defence
1:34:41
and we will, has to be seen in jobs and opportunities across the country
1:34:46
in every community, because we are saying to the country, this has to be the priority
1:34:50
but we also have to say it has to be the opportunity actually
1:34:54
for good, well-paid, skilled jobs right across the country and I'm determined that's going to be in every community
1:35:00
not just the big defence communities but in many other communities as well
1:35:05
But he also said that this has got to be the quote's top priority for the country
1:35:09
We know that many Labour MPs were really upset when the government decided they wanted to cut the welfare budget last year
1:35:15
I think Kistama is now going to be gearing up with yet another fight fight with his back benches who are going to say actually we want to be spending money
1:35:22
on education on the health service and he's going to have to turn around and say this is now my top
1:35:26
priority I want to spend this extra money on defense he also told me that the government
1:35:31
and the UK has to be ready for war he repeated intelligence that Russia could attack NATO as
1:35:37
early as 2030 he did tell me that this plan will be fully funded but I've been speaking to people
1:35:42
across government James that say that those discussions with the treasury the MOD and number
1:35:47
10 are still ongoing and they haven't signed them off yet so richard knight and of course the chief
1:35:51
of the defense staff saying only this morning that this is the most dangerous period he has ever
1:35:56
known and that the uk is um is facing greater threats than at any time he can remember so
1:36:03
hopefully or probably that will help his time or win whatever arguments he has to have
1:36:08
uh what are you doing now hopping on the train i'm hopping on the train back i'll see you soon
1:36:12
james i was trying to think i'll be long gone i was just trying to think if i've got any recommendations for things to do in Swindon
1:36:18
Could you let me know? There's a very lovely looking hotel just across the road, but I probably don't want to stop at that. No, well, if you want to wait for a while
1:36:23
get the next train. I'll see if any of my listeners have got any top tips, but on the other hand... Sounds brilliant
1:36:27
On the other hand, it could be a very arid hour. That's Ashley Clark's
1:36:31
safe journey home, live there from Swindon, where Keir Starmer has been visiting
1:36:35
a drone factory, which feels like a joke, waiting for a punchline
1:36:40
I mean, how... Would they let him out? Does that work? You see what I mean
1:36:47
I bet he fits right in. No? No? It's 12 noon. James O'Brien on LBC
1:36:56
Three minutes after 12, you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC, where we turn our attention next to..
1:37:03
I sometimes make the mistake of thinking that you have got almost as good a memory
1:37:08
of the last 22 years of this programme as I do. And as you know, mine could be better
1:37:13
but I generally find myself most interested in the things that I used to get horribly wrong
1:37:21
Whereas you probably most interested in the things that I still get horribly wrong Do you know I think one of the greatest lies we tell ourselves is that it didn do me any harm What do you say that about in your life
1:37:36
When you look back on stuff, and possibly if you tell somebody something, a new partner is often somebody who you find yourself confiding in
1:37:44
and they raise their eyebrows, and you say, no, it didn't do me any harm
1:37:49
Or you may not actually say it out loud explicitly, but you know that you're subscribing to the
1:37:54
it didn't do me any harm school of thought. It's very much on the same page or in the same chapter
1:38:00
as the stiff upper lip, isn't it? The idea that when faced with trauma
1:38:04
you should pretend you haven't been and keep your upper lip stiff
1:38:08
But it didn't do me any harm. I was an it didn't do me any harm merchant
1:38:14
for most of my life, probably until about my mid-40s. and my main it didn't do me any harm thing was corporal punishment would you believe was being
1:38:25
beaten as a small boy um from about the age of 10 by teachers not by my parents by by by one
1:38:31
teacher in particular by the headmaster at my prep school we would queue up outside his study
1:38:35
remember not not everybody's heard this before we would queue up outside his study we would listen
1:38:41
to the sound of our friend being beaten which in some ways was even more disturbing than being
1:38:47
beaten ourselves and then they would come out and you'd try and make a little bit of eye contact and give
1:38:53
a reassuring nod and then you would go in and put your hand out not knowing
1:38:57
how many you were going to get, you'd count how many your mate had got and to be fair this didn't happen that often
1:39:03
and it was always the same boys that got beaten which rather undermines the argument that it worked
1:39:07
as any sort of deterrent and then you'd just hope that it was going to be
1:39:12
I think just two on one hand was the minimum you'd get and the maximum I think would be six on each there was one mythical occasion when a lad
1:39:20
was rumored to have got 12 on each hand but I don't I think that was just a sort of urban myth
1:39:24
and for years afterwards I would insist that it hadn't done me any harm to the point where I would
1:39:33
argue publicly that it was not necessarily a bad thing to beat children I'd argue that publicly
1:39:41
I'm very very lucky in my career that the earliest days of it
1:39:45
were not recorded when I first started appearing on television with Matthew
1:39:51
who will be with you tomorrow on LBC when we first started appearing on television
1:39:55
together about 100 years ago Matthew had his name above the door on the right stuff the show
1:40:01
was called and I was on it every day I just didn't
1:40:05
have a very good agent so I didn't get my name in the title so And we would have arguments about stuff and have daily debates
1:40:14
And such was the nature of the programme that some days you had to argue things you didn't really believe in
1:40:21
And because I was, as you'd imagine, a very cocky young man, I would relish the opportunity to argue the opposite of what I believed in
1:40:29
So I'm very glad that none of that was recorded because, of course, in the days of Twitter
1:40:33
you would be able to pretend very easily that I was arguing what I believed in
1:40:38
When I literally and categorically wasn't, and sometimes would even point it out on air, I think
1:40:43
and say, it's your turn to have the tough debate today. And it was usually my turn
1:40:49
But when it came to corporal punishment, I wasn't, I was not, like
1:40:54
indulging in an intellectual exercise in debate. I was arguing from a place of pain
1:41:01
that my pain hadn't hurt me. And I only discovered that in my mid-40s
1:41:05
when I started going to therapy. It was an incredible moment when my therapist just said
1:41:10
well, that must have really hurt. That must have been horrible. And I sort of started on the
1:41:15
no, not at all. It didn't do me any... And for the first time in my life
1:41:18
in that context, in that context, it felt ridiculous. And it had never felt ridiculous before
1:41:25
Even in a television studio, it was Channel 5, so at least 11 people watching
1:41:30
Even in a television studio, going down, no, of course it didn't do me any harm
1:41:35
I mean, as long as it's properly regulated and only one teacher is allowed to do it
1:41:38
and everyone's clear about what you'll get beaten for and you won't, it's the only language that some people
1:41:42
understand, and I know because I was one of those children. And I meant it. I thought
1:41:46
I meant it, and I did mean it at the time. It didn't do me any harm. And, um
1:41:53
and obviously it did. It's a horrible thing to do to a child. And now we're going to talk
1:42:01
about something else that I... I'm perilously close to thinking that it didn't do me any harm. It didn't do me any harm
1:42:13
And yet it probably did. I've just not done it in therapy yet. I'm not sure I'm going to need to
1:42:20
because it's so long since I had what you might describe as a really terrible boss
1:42:27
like a mean boss and even when I look back upon having bad bosses
1:42:33
I don't know that they were bad people I think we just had a few bad experiences together
1:42:41
so it's Michelle Obama of all people who has brought this question to my attention
1:42:48
have a little listen to what she has had to say on the subject
1:42:56
This is about resilience in general and Generation Z or Z in particular
1:43:03
This is something that she said recently. We have a generation of young people in their 20s who think that the goal is their personal happiness, period
1:43:15
And that is just not life, you know. I mean, service is a better goal than happiness
1:43:25
because, you know, life is full of bumps and bruises. And part of her thesis, part of her thinking
1:43:34
as she said during a live podcast recording in East London, is that having really bad experiences with bosses
1:43:44
is actually good for you. There's two elements to this. Number one is having a really boring job
1:43:50
can be character-forming in the long run. And number two is having a really bad boss can be character forming in the long run
1:43:59
I haven't got a clip of this because I don't think it's been released yet, but it was recorded live and people in attendance have reported that she said
1:44:07
every experience, the bad boss, the boring assistant job, the job you thought that you weren't appreciated in
1:44:16
the one that didn't give you the assignment you wanted when you wanted it, all of that is learning to be resilient
1:44:24
One thing that's important is to learn how to do something you don't like to do
1:44:29
and be good at it. And this takes me back to experiences
1:44:37
and I'm very lucky that I didn't have many, and the ones that I did have were confined mostly to my time on newspapers
1:44:46
and my time in retail in a clothes shop. when I had bad bosses, or at least I had..
1:44:53
Well when I was in retail I had a really bad boss And you know the kind of boss And in fact this could almost have been the boss that Michelle Obama is talking about And you be in the shop
1:45:05
and it would be quiet. So he'd make you unfold and refold a table full of sweaters
1:45:15
You have a template. Have you ever done this? You have like a plastic template and tissue paper
1:45:19
and there's a very specific company policy on how you fold each
1:45:23
so you'd have a table you've seen them all these tables of sweaters so i was working at river island
1:45:29
at the time but this is very much about the individual boss that i had not about company
1:45:33
policy or anything like that so you've got an entire an entire table of sweaters and if someone
1:45:38
comes in and tries a couple on you kind of roll your eyes internally and say i'll flip an ac i'll
1:45:42
have to fold them up again when he's gone but this boss was an absolute git and if it was all a little
1:45:47
bit quiet or even if it seemed like we were having a bit too much fun together me and my colleagues
1:45:52
having a bit of a chat, not that many customers in the building
1:45:56
We worked on commission, so you would be delighted to see a customer if one wandered in
1:45:59
But they were quiet days, and he'd say, can you refold that table? And you'd say, but it's..
1:46:05
We did it yesterday. I mean, no-one's touched it since we last folded it
1:46:09
And he'd just say, no, just refold that table. And so we'd refold that table
1:46:14
I don't think that was character-forming, was it? I think that was just..
1:46:19
Poor. That was close, Keith. Have you got your finger on the button? That was just..
1:46:24
That wasn't... Really? Is it character... I want to... I thought this conversation was just going to be about nasty bosses
1:46:31
But it is in a way. Because he was a nasty boss making me do something really boring that I didn't need to do
1:46:37
Was that character forming? 03, 4, 5, 6, 0, 6, 0, 9, 7, 3
1:46:43
But it didn't do me any harm bit of the conversation. That is about being monstered
1:46:49
now this doesn't happen anymore in in in my profession but it used to happen on an almost
1:46:56
industrial scale some of the younger people that i work with now have the great pleasure
1:47:01
and privilege of working almost exclusively with much younger people sorry keith um they would i
1:47:08
mean their eyes water at some of the stories we could share and do occasionally share and being
1:47:13
being bawled at, being screamed at in front of all your colleagues
1:47:20
That's awful, right? I mean, is that character forming? Do you think
1:47:27
Is that character forming? I remember one occasion, and do you know, this is funny
1:47:32
I told this story when I was promoting the book in which I talk about a lot of these issues
1:47:38
which is called How Not To Be Wrong, The Art Of Changing Your Mind. and I told this story on Radio 4
1:47:44
and I got a message off an old news editor who I hadn't heard from for about 10 years
1:47:50
and someone I remembered quite fondly and he goes, I hesitate to ask you this question
1:47:53
but that wasn't me, was it? And it wasn't him. But the bloke who it was, I actually like as well
1:48:00
I have fond memories of him as well but there was something about that environment. There was something about the precedent
1:48:05
There was something about that, what would you call it? that context that created these moments of what would now be utterly unacceptable
1:48:15
So I remember, and I didn't, I mean, you know, I would once have said I brought it on myself
1:48:20
but I don't know that anybody should have to endure what I endured. On this occasion, there were several occasions, but let me give you an example
1:48:28
I hadn't got any stories, I think. And, you know, every now and then the news editor comes around with their notebook
1:48:35
asking what stories you have for the next day's paper. And as show business editor, I haven't got any stories
1:48:42
What have you got? And I'd say, I'd give a couple of suggestions, and he'd say, now that's rubbish, and that's rubbish
1:48:48
And he'd say, you haven't had anything for ages, have you? You haven't had anything in the paper for a week
1:48:52
And I'd say, well, I gave you four stories on Thursday, and you didn't run any of them, and other papers did
1:48:58
And that was actually true. So I'd say, I gave you that story, and the Evening Standard ran it
1:49:02
I gave you that story, and the Mail ran it. I gave you that story, and so I started fighting back
1:49:07
and he was embarrassed and he was obviously biding his time and I can't remember exactly what the context was
1:49:17
but his opportunity came about two days later I think I'd made a mistake or something like that
1:49:22
and he just went nuclear at me in front of about 150 people
1:49:28
just in the dog days, the final days of newspapers being well populated and well funded and widely read
1:49:35
and he went absolutely tonto, screaming, shouting, you're this, you're that, you're the other
1:49:43
you're a disgrace, you swan around the place. Some of his criticism's probably valid
1:49:48
but no excuse for delivering them at the volume he delivered them at. And I have a very specific memory
1:49:54
of watching, almost in slow motion, a fleck of spittle making its way from his mouth
1:50:04
to my lip. I felt it land, a little bit of spittle
1:50:09
making its way from his mouth to my, landing on my lip
1:50:13
And I'm thinking, what do I do? And then I remember thinking, I can't cope with this
1:50:18
I can't do this anymore. This is unbearable. I found the job incredibly stressful
1:50:24
The hours were extraordinary. I mean, bits of it were brilliant. And I remember thinking to myself
1:50:31
I'm going to faint I'm going to pretend to faint because that is the only way
1:50:40
I can escape from this moment I'm going to pretend to faint
1:50:44
and then my internal dialogue kicks in and says you can't pretend to faint because if you don't go down like a tree
1:50:49
they're going to know that you're pretending it's going to be embarrassing enough to faint
1:50:54
but to be believed to be faking a faint would be absolutely fatal
1:50:58
it's an agreeable collection of F's and I don't know, this was before
1:51:02
Gillian McKeith went on I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here
1:51:06
and before Larry David perfected the art of a fake faint because you sort of go down onto one knee
1:51:12
if you faint, you go down like a broomstick right, you go down like that
1:51:15
if you're faking a faint, you sort of go you go down onto one knee
1:51:20
and then you keel over so I thought I can't faint so I think I even at that point
1:51:26
may have put my hands behind my back like a soldier and just sort of stood there
1:51:32
Just, all right, I'm going to take this until it's over. I'm not going to reply. I'm not going to answer back
1:51:37
I'm not going to argue. I'm just going to stand here and I'm going to take my medicine
1:51:42
And I did. What was that character forming? 03456060973. When you look back on two things, right, two things
1:51:55
I can't say the word. B-word bosses, all right? B-word bosses and really boring jobs or really boring bits of jobs
1:52:04
Can you look me in the eye and tell them, tell me, that Michelle Obama is right and those individuals and those experiences are actually good for you
1:52:14
Now, hit the numbers now. You will get through. Oh, I mean, listen, it's going to involve you sharing your story as well
1:52:20
a bit like I've just shared mine. But I am really interested in the psychology of it because Michelle Obama is closer to my um than most of my colleagues sorry Keith and I don think that they would recognize this a I don think they would believe
1:52:39
that they had to put up with it and b I don't think that they would think it was character
1:52:42
forming and they might be wrong and this is where I'm still a little bit like the boy defending
1:52:49
corporal punishment there's still a little bit of me that thinks well because it happened to me
1:52:53
it can't be that bad. And I think perhaps that's what Michelle Obama is doing
1:52:57
It didn't do me any harm. Well, it probably did. But not necessarily
1:53:04
So the B-word boss and the really boring bit of your job
1:53:09
can you look me in the eye and tell me that that has actually made you more resilient
1:53:14
and therefore a better person, a better professional, a better parent, a better partner
1:53:20
than you are now? 0345 6060 973 is the number you need it's friday it's a slightly softer topic than the rest of the
1:53:30
week it's your best chance since 10 o'clock on monday morning of getting through to the program
1:53:35
so whatever you do don't waste it and and or is michelle obama actually doing something quite
1:53:39
dangerous and something quite unhelpful and something quite ignorant when it comes to the
1:53:45
social change that has removed bullying from the workplace and equipped young people with standards
1:53:52
and expectations that their parents were not lucky enough to have. James O'Brien on LBC
1:53:58
Joining us shortly to talk about his new book about George Michael has written about these comments that Michelle Obama made recently
1:54:05
The idea that every experience, the bad boss, the job you thought you weren't appreciated
1:54:10
the one that did, they're all character forming. They all help you to be resilient
1:54:16
And Satnan's story, I'll let him tell you himself actually when he gets here. but is she right or is she possibly horribly wrong
1:54:23
Daniel's in Mill Hill. Daniel, what do you reckon? I worked for a company for 12 years
1:54:28
and after 12 years, for various reasons, I was called over to France to be screamed at in French
1:54:34
speaking some French but not a lot. Most of my meetings were conducted in English
1:54:39
It was a French company, was it? It wasn't just an eccentric boss. No, French company, head office in France
1:54:44
but I ran the UK office, shall we say. Okay, yes. And I was told, you have some French, I'm now going to scream at you, excuse me, in French
1:54:52
And the experience was not dissimilar to your Spickle story. I ended up quitting six weeks later
1:54:58
Yes. Solely as a result of that relatively terrifying experience, and it was 12 years ago
1:55:04
to then set up my own company, which I've been doing the same thing for the last 12 years
1:55:09
working for myself, and it was the best thing that ever happened to me. Okay. And I do look back saying, if that hadn't happened to me
1:55:15
I probably wouldn't be running my own business. But that's not character forming. That's like forcing you out of the door
1:55:23
But it gave me the strength to... That's not what she means
1:55:26
It didn't give you the strength. I look back at it as a character forming experience
1:55:33
Do you? I look at it, and I know it's your life, and I'm arguing with you about what happened in it
1:55:37
which is a little bit rich, but I look at it as a resolve forming experience
1:55:41
not a character-forming experience. I think... I don't think I know the difference
1:55:46
between character-forming and resolve-forming because I think resolve, resilience, resolution... But it wasn't resilient
1:55:52
You ran away. But... Yeah, I haven't considered it in that way
1:56:00
But without it, I wouldn't be better off. Yeah. I mean, measurably better off
1:56:06
It's a tricky one. It's a tricky one. What sort of boss are you? Have you ever shouted..
1:56:09
And I'll be able to tell if you're lying. I've got technology in the studio. Have you ever shouted at any of your employees
1:56:14
No. At the time, I had 14 people reporting to me. And if you want to talk about character forming
1:56:20
I've worked for myself for 12 years and decided never to hire anybody else. Oh, okay
1:56:25
So, yeah, that's what I meant. I mean, that could have been part of my decision
1:56:28
just this whole not wanting to be responsible for... You know, I feel that when 14 people reported to me
1:56:34
everyone makes mistakes, but they never scream to anybody. Yeah, good for you. There's no need to, it doesn't..
1:56:39
The thing I can't remember, Daniel, is whether or not I ended that monstering in the newspaper office
1:56:46
by doubling my efforts to get some stories for the next day
1:56:50
because if I did, there's a case for arguing that his tactics worked
1:56:55
And I don't know how long after that you ended up on the path to where you are today
1:56:59
But going back to the topic that you're addressing, there is no excuse to scream at somebody
1:57:04
There isn't, is there? There are ways to motivate them, to lift them up
1:57:08
to really make them feel bad, to make them feel embarrassed, but screaming in front of anyone
1:57:13
in a large group of people is traumatic. Yeah, it is. And trauma is no good for anyone
1:57:18
You'd almost rather be punched. I mean, I don't want to turn it into a top trumps of trauma
1:57:24
but, I mean, at least then half the... I don't know, because I've never been punched
1:57:29
but I think trauma doesn't do anyone any good at any time, whether it's a parent screaming at a child
1:57:33
whether it's a boss screaming at a... I completely agree with you. I mean, to be fair to Michelle Obama
1:57:38
she isn't saying that being screamed at is good, but when she talks about an awful boss
1:57:41
the first thing most of us will think of is the thing you thought of and the thing that I thought of
1:57:46
Yes, I mean, it immediately came to my mind, and I still look back at it with a moderate degree of horror
1:57:50
but there is a psychology in life, or whatever the word I'm looking for is
1:57:54
which is try and be grateful for something negative. You could almost be grateful for..
1:57:58
Well, life gives you lemons, make limoncello, that kind of thing. If you can. Yes, I..
1:58:02
Be grateful for even the terrible things. There's one thing we're missing, actually
1:58:07
and that would be, and I have got a horrible feeling that I suffered a little bit from this
1:58:12
that would be that you then think that's how you treat people. I think you'd have to be completely emotionally and self-unaware
1:58:22
to go through a traumatic experience and then want to revisit, because that's what a bully is
1:58:26
Or you just went to public school. Well, a bit of both. Which might be the same thing
1:58:30
that you think, well, that happened to me, therefore it should happen to them. So it's why bullying is hereditary in public schools
1:58:36
It's why lots of things in the ruling classes are appallingly toxic for everybody involved
1:58:43
but they hand them down from generation to generation to generation, arguably including sending your children away to boarding school when they're 7 or 10 years old
1:58:49
and not long ago, knowing that they'll be beaten. Didn't do me any harm
1:58:53
So you get screamed at a lot. And I think I was like this, probably, until my very early 30s
1:58:59
That's how you run an office. When you have a team, that's how you... I can't remember whether I went from being screamed at
1:59:06
to go and scream at my juniors but I cannot hand on heart I've never screamed at you have I Keith
1:59:11
be honest now no banter no I've never screamed at Keith but if that's all you know
1:59:16
I can't say with my hand on my heart that I didn't then go and scream at the people
1:59:20
that were on my team who hadn't given me any stories because I was getting screamed at by the bloke ah
1:59:25
that wasn't character forming that was just like a cycle of trauma
1:59:29
Jane's in Camden Jane what would you like to say? Hi James, yeah, so I've worked for plenty of horrible bosses and I think, you know, when I first came out of uni that was probably my most harrowing experience
1:59:42
So I certainly wouldn't emulate any of their behaviour at all. Was it character forming for you though
1:59:50
Oh God, no, no. Are you sure you're not more resilient today because of their awfulness
1:59:55
I think it taught me what I will and will not put up with
1:59:59
that that's something that you acquire with age. So I think it sets those boundaries and certainly
2:00:04
has shaped my opinions when I'm applying for jobs now. It's really hard because when you do apply
2:00:12
for a job, it's not like you can, well, you have a six-month probation, but you can't really try out
2:00:20
the boss and think, is this somebody that I really want to take that leap of faith and go and work
2:00:26
for. But anyway, I'm getting off topic. That's all right. I do it all the time
2:00:34
I can just say, as a boss now myself, there was one boss that I did work for
2:00:40
which I did think they are a terrible boss. But looking back now and being in my position
2:00:49
I do think to myself, a lot of people do look at their bosses and go, well, I could do that job so much better than them
2:00:54
And actually, when you get it, you really can. You really can
2:00:58
That's a good point. And you do look back and you go, actually, yeah, I kind of see now how difficult it is
2:01:05
Because the buck stops with you. You know, if anything goes wrong, the buck stops with you
2:01:10
Won't somebody think of the bosses, is what you're saying, Jane. But I know that you're saying it from a position of sincerity
2:01:15
And you're right, of course. It is a lot harder than it looks. And you're under more stress and pressure
2:01:20
So the bloke that shouted at me was under more stress and pressure from a... Actually, I'm not sure he was under that particular editor
2:01:26
but he could have been under more stress and pressure than he was putting me under, and it's easy to forget that
2:01:32
Very easy to forget that. What about boring bits? Do you think doing really, really boring things is good for you
2:01:39
Elliot, who's producing the show today, just nodded enthusiastically. I don't know what we're supposed to make of that
2:01:45
This is good for you, is it, Elliot? This shift? Okay. When's Eleanor back, Keith
2:01:49
Carry on, Jane. I think that elements that are boring you know, they're just part of the job
2:01:57
and actually that does relate to another point I was going to make that again, in my position as boss
2:02:03
I am seeing you know, the gen setters coming through and actually that resilience
2:02:09
Michelle Obama is right, there is no resilience you don't get it from screaming though
2:02:15
no, that's true and I'm just talking over you even more than I would normally
2:02:19
because the phone line went a bit glitchy and I hate that. But the other thing, and Satnam writes about this in The Times today
2:02:25
is that I do find young people want to start off at the top
2:02:30
You know, there is a slight danger of thinking you turn up somewhere
2:02:34
and you'll be doing the really cool stuff on day one, whereas most people have to spend some time in the shallow end
2:02:41
and the foothills of careers before getting to the juicy bits. But that, I don't know, maybe we were like that as well
2:02:46
It was harder to challenge because you couldn't look at social media then and think
2:02:53
well, why aren't I massive already? There's an 11-year-old here who's got a million followers
2:02:58
Here's Matt Hewitt. He's not the 11-year-old with a million followers. He's got your headlines
2:03:01
James O'Brien on LBC. One of those quirks of schedules that Satnam Sanghera joins us to talk about his, frankly, sensational new book
2:03:11
on the day that, or the day after, an article he wrote was published in The Times
2:03:15
reflecting on the topic that we're actually in the middle of discussing. So we'll begin with that
2:03:19
Did dressing up as the news bunny at live TV help form the character that we see before us today
2:03:25
Yeah, well, it showed that I was willing to do anything. For money? I get trolled by my enemies on social media
2:03:32
for having been the news bunny. But it's like, it was my only way into the media
2:03:36
Why are they trolling you? Because, you know, it's pathetic. Oh, I see. You know, and humiliating
2:03:40
You could have contributed to the first hour of the programme when we were asking whether or not the government and members of public figures
2:03:46
should now start coming off Twitter entirely because the place has become so toxic. But I won't badger you with questions about the thing you haven't come here to talk about
2:03:53
We should come off. Do you think so? We all should. Have you
2:03:57
I've reduced my social media by 90%. And what impact has it had on your mental health
2:04:02
You know the answer to this. Of course I do. I am 90% happier
2:04:06
Yes, there you go. I want to hear you say it in your broad black country accent
2:04:11
which was too broad, I read, to contemplate a career as a broadcaster
2:04:15
Okay, so tonight the music seems so loud. The meaning of George Michael
2:04:21
It's beautiful. It's almost impossible for me to describe what it is
2:04:27
Is that fair? Very nice of you. I know you're a Wham fan. Not just a Wham fan
2:04:31
Apparently there's photographic evidence of you with a bouffant and highlights. Have I imagined this
2:04:37
I never had highlights, but I may have had a white denim jacket and white denim trousers with the elasticated ankle
2:04:48
And grey leather pixie boots. Look, there were different times. It was my George Michael face
2:04:56
Anyway, you put it into your words. What is it? I mean, it did go. Well, I had a go, actually
2:05:01
I remind myself from the back of the book. I had a go at describing it. It's part biography, part social commentary and part love letter
2:05:08
It somehow does full justice to the magnificent man it examined. So where did the idea come from and why
2:05:13
Yeah, I mean, George Wanker's still one of the most popular artists of our age
2:05:17
Most played artist still on a load of British radio stations. Highest hit rate in the history of the Billboard hit 100
2:05:26
But there's been no real commemoration, no tribute concert. You can't leave flowers at his grave
2:05:32
And there's like thousands of books about Dylan, Prince, the Beatles, and nothing serious about this amazing man
2:05:41
And, you know, it's the 10th anniversary of his death this year. And I just thought, you know what
2:05:46
Take a break from colonialism and celebrate this brilliant man who did lots of good for the world
2:05:52
Why did he mean so much to you? Well, initially, I got into him in around 1990 around Listen Without Prejudice
2:05:58
And I think it was just that... Johnny come lately. My sisters were into wham. Right
2:06:06
I think it was just that he had feelings and he could sing very sensitively about his feelings
2:06:11
And the men around me, the macho Punjabi man, didn't really have any feelings
2:06:16
And I think that's what drew me towards him. And a vulnerability as well
2:06:20
which goes hand in hand with what you've just described. Why do you think there weren't? Well, there hasn't been a canon of work about someone so huge
2:06:27
Barely any new music. I think it's partly because some of his music
2:06:32
seems disposable it pop music isn it and you can reyse it some people think but also his estate i think is run by his family and friends and i think they were traumatized by
2:06:42
the way he died yes and it's taken them a long time to really yes begin the process but it's
2:06:49
beginning yes and and i mean to be brutal no one's cashing in on that legacy or i mean there's a
2:06:55
difference i don't mean cashing in there's plenty of stuff that's done posthumously that is wonderful
2:07:01
and good but as you say too traumatized to even think about what they might do to maintain the
2:07:05
legacy so so up pop you yeah with with tonight the music seems so loud um just run through those
2:07:12
three things that i just described because it's a bit about you it's a bit about our society it's
2:07:16
mostly about george michael and it is a love letter as well yeah i mean beyond his amazing
2:07:21
music i mean he was just incredible secret philanthropist came out in a way that still
2:07:26
inspires people today and i think punctured the purions of the tabloids when it came to outing
2:07:31
people but also just the music man yeah it really survived like no friday night disco no wedding
2:07:36
disco is complete without wham and you know his last christmas christmas becomes more and more
2:07:42
successful by the year careless whispers a meme on social media you can't deny the brilliance of
2:07:47
the music 25 million copies of faith i mean these are unthinkable numbers for um young people today
2:07:54
Spotify streams don't hit those sort of numbers and you don't have to pay individually for those
2:07:59
I mean, just epic, immense, mammoth and international. A kind of British superstar on the scale of Taylor Swift
2:08:07
Yeah, in 1989, I think he was as big as Michael Jackson, Prince, Madonna, but also very unusual in that he walked away from it
2:08:15
Yeah. He hated it. And he had a really tough final period, didn't he
2:08:21
I mean, one of the most extraordinary... extraordinary i mean it's a very sad book obviously as well because you're talking about someone we
2:08:27
love that died but the failure to notice how much trouble he was in yeah i think that was partly
2:08:33
because he was always so articulate yeah in front of a camera and also he was funny he always had a
2:08:40
funny remark and he'd got over so many other crises i think we just assumed he'd get over
2:08:45
these final crises yeah and so we thought he'll be fine but being found off his box at the wheel
2:08:51
of his car not once or twice but on about half a dozen different occasions it's weird that we felt
2:08:56
it was surprising because you know he went to prison yes you know he got caught with crack and
2:09:00
ghb i mean if someone in your life had gone through that you wouldn't be that surprised
2:09:05
do you forget that he's dead yeah you do have those moments i do where you sort of just oh my
2:09:10
days how could that have happened yeah but also i feel glad he hasn't seen what's happened to the
2:09:15
world because he was so engaged in politics and he was one of the first to speak out about the iraq
2:09:21
war people forget but he broke up wham around because of apartheid yes because his management
2:09:26
got involved with the south african business and so he would have had performed a minor strike
2:09:31
benefits minor strike member of the communist party bizarrely yes briefly i mean yeah of course
2:09:36
um but yeah like which modern pop star is that bold in their political opinions i can't think of
2:09:43
anyone really what what did you discover about him that you didn't know already that that was most
2:09:47
notable? I think it was the secret of philanthropy. The extent of it. Like, we're
2:09:53
still finding out stories. Like, giving away all of the British royalties to his
2:09:57
best of. And then insisting that no one knew. Giving away the
2:10:01
entire first year's royalties to last Christmas. He was already just starting out. I think it was
2:10:05
about three million quid. And, um, he was routinely generous. And, yeah, incredible. But also lots of pop facts
2:10:14
Like, he almost did a duet with Michael Jackson. what role does Andrew Ridgely play in the book
2:10:19
Andrew has got a kicking over the years you often hear people say
2:10:23
oh do you know that George was so generous to Andrew that he gave him a writing credit
2:10:26
on Kelly's Respect it's not true Andrew did actually write the guitar line
2:10:31
on Kelly's Respect and co-wrote Club Tropicana and a couple of other Wham tracks and
2:10:35
if you watch that video the Netflix film that came out a couple of years ago you realise that
2:10:40
I mean without Wham there would have been no George Michael and without Andrew Ridgely
2:10:43
there would have been no Wham I think that began to set the record... I am such an anorak saturn
2:10:48
That began to set the record a little bit straighter, but you don't go down the road of trying to sort of squeeze his role
2:10:57
No, no, one would have happened with Andrew. And also he did a remarkable thing
2:11:01
As a young, ambitious young man, he saw that George had this talent
2:11:05
and he more or less stepped aside. Yeah. He now regrets it. He wishes he hadn't retired at the age of 21
2:11:10
that he'd said to George, let's carry on co-writing songs. but almost every band splits up at that point but he did he just what an incredible thing to do for
2:11:19
your friend it is um tell me why someone who is not a massive george michael fan would enjoy this
2:11:25
book well it says a lot about the times we were through i guess you know i am a historian
2:11:28
so the social history the cruelty of the 80s and 90s i mean that when he came out the headlines
2:11:35
alone were just and beyond brutal again i've been talking a lot today about the differences between
2:11:41
my generation and some of my younger colleagues, they would struggle to believe the way he was
2:11:45
written about and talked about at the time. And people go, oh, it was obvious he was gay
2:11:50
and why didn't he come out? Well, almost everyone we now know was gay wasn't really out in the 80s
2:11:55
So Elton John was married. Kenny Everett was married. Freddie Mercury had a girlfriend
2:12:00
Boy George, until the mid-80s, was saying he was bi. Mark Almond wasn't out initially. Yes
2:12:05
That was because the press made it impossible to be gay and in the entertainment industry
2:12:11
Was it, and you may not know the answer to this, but it's a gap in my anorakness
2:12:15
was it fear of his father or his mother knowing he was gay
2:12:19
that kept him in the closet for so long? I think primarily it was his mother because there was such an association then
2:12:24
between being gay and AIDS. Right. And he knew she would worry
2:12:29
But his father, when he was a child, was homophobic. Yes, yes. I know, he was a Greek Cypriot macho bloke
2:12:35
Restaurateur. Yeah. And George worked in the restaurant, but not very successfully. No, got fired by his own dad
2:12:41
And yog. See, another thing I shouldn't tell you is that I had the word yog picked out on my white denim jacket in little metal studs
2:12:50
Oh dear, I thought you were going to say you had a tattoo. No, I wouldn't. I mean, I don't think my parents would have let me have a tattoo
2:12:55
But that was the name that Andrew knew him by. Or at least Andrew's version of what he thought his parents called
2:13:01
And Andrew thought that they were calling him Yog when he went around to visit So that what he started calling him I going to cry Yeah And another thing about Andrew is that you know he was quite dark yeah and he was called the p word yes yes and george
2:13:19
experience was egyptian heritage i think yeah jewish egyptian yeah and their experience was
2:13:25
quite similar to that of being brown in the 70s and 80s um as i said it's it's impossible i mean
2:13:31
i've done a decent job on the back cover actually but it's almost impossible to encapsulate what
2:13:37
this book is uh because i can't can you think of anything like it where would you put what would
2:13:41
you put it next to on the shelf i don't know i really liked craig brown's one two three four
2:13:45
about the beatles yes okay and that's kind of social history but also about the beatles yeah
2:13:49
very much so there's stuff you will learn even if you thought you knew everything about them there's
2:13:53
stuff that will make you laugh there's stuff that will make you cry and most of all there is stuff
2:13:57
that will make you fully if you and even more fully appreciate what an extraordinary talent
2:14:02
George Michael I hate saying was but yeah but he was yeah do you know shame you don't play music on
2:14:09
this show if we got it did you get anything ready Elliot too busy being bored probably you know could
2:14:14
have put in a little bit of what would you play now what would be the for me in careless whisper
2:14:18
and I play if you've got something to give earlier this week I got six music to play cowboys and
2:14:23
angels all seven minutes of it and you're the audience loved it I bet they did of course you
2:14:27
play anything i mean i'd go earlier i think there's signs on uh everything she wants of
2:14:34
where he would go later i think that was more of a george michael track than a than a wham track
2:14:38
actually you know he played everything on that yeah all the instruments all the vocals i do now
2:14:43
i know that now yeah and i know thanks to you that he had 12 saxophonists before he was happy with
2:14:48
the solo on careless whisper and couldn't play the saxophone himself because he would have done
2:14:52
I'm surprised he didn't learn. I mean, to the end, one worries about whether or not
2:14:57
the line between perfectionism and smoking too much weed was hard to plot at times
2:15:03
Because that's like the Stone Roses second album. Reportedly, the amount of drugs that were being taken
2:15:08
made it pretty hard for them to agree about anything or be finally happy with something
2:15:13
Yeah, I think it slowed him down. That's why it took him six months to record Fast Love. Yeah
2:15:16
He was astoned. We will not see his like again. Sanam, thank you
2:15:23
Do you know what you're doing next? Not a book about the British Empire
2:15:27
Definitely not. Definitely not. Well, I mean, it must be really embarrassing for you
2:15:31
how little resonance those last books that you wrote. I know. It's almost like no one in politics listens
2:15:36
Yeah, and it doesn't impact on anything. I'm not going to ask you about the recent news
2:15:41
because that's not why you're here. Sanam Sangara, tonight the music seems so loud
2:15:45
The meaning of George Michael is out now. And it is, as I say, a thing of absolute beauty
2:15:50
It's 12.47. James O'Brien on LBC. Bad bosses and boring jobs more in a moment
2:15:57
But first, I just want to share something with you, because I fail to find this anywhere in the national media
2:16:03
I found it on the regional parts of some national media, but it was, I mean, breathtaking to me that this story appeared this week
2:16:12
It's the story of a student being murdered in Britain by a 22-year-old man being stabbed to death
2:16:22
and the culprit was jailed for life this week. And the culprit's father has also been jailed for two years
2:16:28
after pleading guilty to assisting an offender after concealing high-visibility clothing that his son had been wearing at the time of the attack
2:16:36
And I saw this because one of the Daily Mail's columnists writes this morning about how hiding her son's bloodied murder weapon
2:16:43
in the family home isn't what any mother would do, and that appears on the front page
2:16:49
And the murder of this poor chap, Mohammed Algasim, did not involve any perceived or actual police mistakes
2:17:00
But he's brown and his killer was white and his killer's father, as I say
2:17:05
has already been jailed for helping an offender after the attack and I'm fairly confident that the..
2:17:14
and the attacker was carrying a kitchen knife for protection because he said he had been attacked in the past
2:17:19
he approached them randomly in the street, apparently to ask for a lighter
2:17:24
and then, having been taking cocaine all night, had a sort of paranoid delusion that he'd abused
2:17:29
and turned back to stab this entirely innocent young man. I'm fairly confident that you didn't know anything at all about that story
2:17:38
And I'm not necessarily suggesting that you should, And I'm not drawing any parallels beyond age with Henry Novak's murder, because what is so hideous about that is the footage of the police officers briefly disbelieving him and handcuffing him when he was the one in agony
2:17:56
But it just struck me as almost uncanny that another story, this time about a brown man being murdered by a white man
2:18:03
and aided, the white man being aided by his parent in the hopes of evading justice
2:18:09
would have arrived and been sentenced in the same week and go almost entirely unnoticed
2:18:19
It is 12.52. Quick call from Ashley on the question of bosses and boringness
2:18:24
What do you want to say, Ashley? Hi, James. First time caller. So a little bit nervous
2:18:28
It's only me. But just wanted to say, I think, you know, with bad bosses and kind of boring jobs
2:18:34
I don't think there's any such thing as like a bad job or a boring job. Oh, you're one of those
2:18:38
Yeah, I think, you know, people don't leave jobs, they leave people
2:18:42
You know, if your manager is always micromanaging you and kind of sucking the life out of your ability to enjoy your job
2:18:48
then, you know, you're not going to get the best idea of people. you know some people
2:18:54
we're all people, we all have issues at home and kind of financial issues or family issues
2:18:59
or it might be you know that old saying like leave all that at the door
2:19:02
it doesn't work, like people still come to work it's still in the back of their mind they're still not going to be giving 100
2:19:08
and if you're a manager then calls you into the office and derates you for not giving 100
2:19:13
because you've got stuff going at home that's not going to inspire any loyalty to stay
2:19:17
or the willingness to do better tomorrow What about terror? What about being frightened into being better
2:19:24
That doesn't work. It might in the short term, you know. I probably would have argued once that it works on me
2:19:30
I work better when I'm frightened. I don't, by the way, but I used to believe that I did
2:19:35
Yeah. I don't think it works long term. I think, you know, short term you might get like, you know
2:19:42
a short shock into kind of getting a couple of things done or meeting whatever targets But actually if it long term you know if your management style is terror and kind of scaring people into getting stuff done what happens If you a business who kind of you know
2:19:58
you need a new product, for example, or you need, you know, a new service available for people
2:20:03
and your manager shuts you down because it's a bad idea and makes you feel scared about coming up with new ideas
2:20:08
you're not going to come up with new ideas. And it's not character forming to be on the receiving end of that
2:20:14
in any way, shape or form. No, I don't believe it. Are you sure resilience
2:20:18
I mean, you become tougher. Maybe it's not something you should want to be tougher in that way
2:20:23
No, I mean, there's kind of an idea that resilience, you can't really train resilience and all that sort of thing
2:20:28
I mean, the US Army spent billions trying to train resilience into their trips
2:20:32
and it didn't work. Really? It failed. What actually helps resilience is knowing that you've got people around you who support you
2:20:39
and you can lean on social connections and all those sorts of things. That builds resilience
2:20:44
if you're in an environment where all that is kind of shot down and there's just fear and all sorts of things
2:20:52
the first time you get a problem you're not going to want to talk to your boss
2:20:56
and say there's an issue here and I need to get it solved you're going to think oh god you know I've got to have that chat and it's just going to be this and the other
2:21:03
and there's lots of research that shows actually bad managers have a really negative impact
2:21:08
on people's well-being so you know if you think about workplace stress and anxiety issues
2:21:14
and all those sorts of things. A lot of that comes from managers. And they're actually making
2:21:18
things worse. So I suppose the only person who's made an even vaguely plausible
2:21:22
case for this being a good thing is the bloke who was so unhappy with the way he was being treated by
2:21:26
his boss that he went off and started his own business. But I don't know if that's quite what Michelle Obama
2:21:30
was talking about. Funny. I think it's hugely generational, this. I think that if you were raised
2:21:36
in that environment, it's quite hard to let go of the idea that it was awful because
2:21:40
that would somehow involve you know I know it's very popular to pretend you're a victim these days but you actually were
2:21:46
a victim and that's a different proposition entirely thank you Ashley um time for full
2:21:51
disclosure which is with for my money she is one of the most brilliant and original talents in the
2:21:57
country but because this is a country where the word ventriloquist conjures up images of Nookie
2:22:02
Bear and Orville the Duck she doesn't get anything like in my view I hope she doesn't mind me saying
2:22:07
this, the credit or the recognition that she deserves, up to and including
2:22:11
for her film, which we talk about in Full Disclosure as well. I'm talking
2:22:15
if you haven't worked it out already, about Nina Conti, who is a genius
2:22:21
And if you don't know that, then you'll spend five minutes on YouTube having listened
2:22:25
to this, and then an hour listening to Full Disclosure, and you'll appreciate fully and completely
2:22:29
that she is a genius. But I wondered when I met her how it started. How a young actor, not particularly
2:22:34
making inroads or uh or enjoying herself fell under the influence of of ken campbell an incredibly
2:22:41
visionary uh um uh theater maker who became her partner and how she ended up on the path towards
2:22:49
ventriloquism of all things so what happened i mean i did what what i got that right he came back
2:22:55
from kentucky with a puppet or or or but when did you first when did you first insert your hand into
2:23:01
a puppet how did that come about well i did a few times in groups with him he was holding sort of
2:23:09
workshops and i had a troubled relationship with him because i i couldn't do everything he wanted
2:23:16
because it was too extreme and i had to separate a bit and that made him angry and it was a bit
2:23:23
tough so but i i didn't want to ever have an enemy in him you know so i kept in touch a bit and i
2:23:30
went to these ventriloquist workshops I thought they were really stupid um and I didn't like it
2:23:39
um and then and so but then I went to the Royal Shakespeare Company and I was doing a very normal
2:23:44
job and I didn't have big parts I had small parts and I really kind of missed him and I thought
2:23:49
however weird it is I would rather that um and at the time so I sort of opened the door to him again
2:23:56
and then he asked me I mean it's a long story full story is that he
2:24:03
he said whilst you're doing this and you're cutting your teeth in the acting world I would like to write a book
2:24:10
about acting I always have and if you could send me questions about acting
2:24:15
that will inspire chapters and so and he provided me with postcards
2:24:21
but there's a dress on them and And I had an unsuccessful voice coaching lesson with Sis Berry, who's a very loud voice coach, who said, you know, there are voices, some I can listen to and the others I just shut off
2:24:37
And you've got to make yours one I can listen to. Okay
2:24:42
Quite tough. So I quoted that on this postcard and said, what do I do
2:24:48
And this book that he was reporting to write suddenly didn't exist anymore
2:24:54
He had the invitation to make me a ventriloquist. He went at it wholeheartedly
2:25:02
And at the stage door at the Swan Theatre, there's suddenly this big fluffy dog and a teach yourself ventriloquism kit
2:25:09
which he bought in Kentucky, which was 30 booklets of how to learn ventriloquism
2:25:15
And it came with a sort of a lolly stick to hold your tongue down and a little mirror
2:25:20
I mean, and he said, this is this is the answer to your question
2:25:27
You will become a vocal acrobat. There will be nothing that you can do
2:25:32
You'll be doing all the things she can't teach you and you will know everything about the voice
2:25:37
And this is what you have to do. The film is called Sunlight
2:25:41
The interview series is called Full Disclosure. The guest is called Nina Conti
2:25:45
You will enjoy all three of them. Also, a quick shout to Kate and James who are on Mysteria
2:25:50
a week and a half ago, celebrating their marriage. And I said I'd give their company a mention
2:25:55
I think I forgot. Some Like It Hot is their... Well, all the hot sauce is under the sun
2:26:02
They sent me a box full. I even gave one to Elliot. That's how generous I am. But seriously, you think you know hot sauce
2:26:07
You don't know hot sauce until you've had a look at... SomeLikeItHot.shop
2:26:11
Absolutely incredible stuff. Thank you, Kate. Thank you, James. Best of luck in your married life
2:26:16
That's it from me for today. If you missed any of it, you know what to do. Tom Sorbick will be with you at four
2:26:21
Sheila Fogarty is with you. Thank you very much, James. Have a great weekend. James O'Brien on LBC

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