Andy Burnham becomes PM | James O’Brien - The Whole Show

How finite is the human memory, do you think

I know it sounds a little odd, but I was puzzling this over the weekend. I read a rather splendid interview with our friend and colleague, Johnny Vaughan

who was suggesting that the reason why he can't remember anything is because there's only a finite amount of space in our memory banks

with which we can actually record stuff. And it is obviously remarkable this morning

that the fifth prime minister in four years is making his way to Downing Street

Events that you can watch unfold live on YouTube, live on the Global Player, live on the LBC app

Unfortunately, the unfolding events will be punctuated by large periods in which the only thing you'll be able to see

is my phys-og. But some people enjoy that. Some people sign up for it

But don't forget, you know, this is radio with pictures. And I can't remember the previous ones

I have sort of vague memories of helicopters floating around the place and cars making their way to and from number 10 Downing Street

I could now spend the best part of an hour describing scenes on Downing Street, which essentially involve a door, a door

I'm dropping some trivia about the door. There's no letterbox on that

Did you know that, Keith? There's no letterbox on number 10 Downing Street, because when the postman arrives, I don't think he comes around the front, does he

The postman. But if he did, then they'd just open the door and he'd take all the packages

I wonder if they get as many Amazon deliveries as we do at the moment, such as the delight of having teenage daughters

So I could describe the door. Some broadcasters will be doing that. They will be treating you for the foreseeable future

with descriptions of entirely unchanging scenes involving doors. And, I mean, listen, I'm in the state-of-the-art studios in Westminster

that LBC now enjoys, but I don't think we've currently got a helicopter

I don't know whether we need to send a memo upstairs or something. By the time we get our next Prime Minister, which, as things are going

will probably be before Christmas, could we please have a helicopter? In fact, I would be prepared to do the show from a helicopter

if that were something that the insurers were prepared to go along with

So, yes, one broadcaster essentially featuring scenes from a helicopter. There's the Houses of Parliament and Big Ben

Did you know that Big Ben is, in fact, the name of the bell? not the name of the tower, as many people continue to believe

And this is why they pay us the big bucks. It's our helicopter shot, apparently, I've just been told

So I've already made my first mistake, and it's six minutes after ten. Watch all my mistakes unfold live this morning on YouTube

on the Global Player, and, of course, on the LBC app. That's one. I suspect that Keith will be keeping count

Are you keeping count, Keith? That's one down. One big mistake made. Goodness knows how many to go

So the reason I mention memory is because I can't remember how different it feels when we go through periods of comparative stability

For example, we had, we're often tempted to point out, 14 years of Tory rule between 2010 and 2024

But in many ways, they were just as from 2016 onwards, they were just as febrile and feverish as as now as anything else

So there wasn't really stability then. We had stability of sorts between 1997 and 2008, when Tony Blair essentially succumbed to internal and external pressure and cleared the way for Gordon Brown

And Gordon Brown, given the fact that he'd been chancellor for the previous decade and a bit, he was unlikely to embark upon a radically different policy platform from the man who had been prime minister previously

So that would be your last example of comparative stability. And yet even that doesn't really sit in the memory as an easily accessible moment, as an easily accessible period

It is ridiculous when you look at other countries that we are now embarking upon a day in which the fifth prime minister in four years will be installed

That includes, of course, Liz Truss, who was only there for 27 minutes, but nonetheless, who gets to call herself a former prime minister for the rest of her ridiculous life

And I don't think we can even chalk her up as an anomaly because she was actually elected in a genuine contest by the members of the Conservative Party, who at the time, I think, found the prospect of a brown skinned leader utterly unconscionable

A prejudice that they had overcome, possibly as a consequence of Rishi Sunak showing what they could have won by the time Kemi Badenoch stood against honest Bob Jenrick

So this sense of chaos almost, this certain sense of flux, this sense of instability, this sense of not quite unreliability, but just this sense of shakiness seems to me currently to typify UK politics

And I would very much like Blair left in 2007. Keith, that's two mistakes

Blair left in 2007, not 2008. I want you to tell me why

I'm not persuaded that the country has, as it is becoming fashionable to suggest, that the country has become ungovernable

It can't have become ungovernable. Or if it has, it has to become governable again sometime sooner rather than later

Otherwise, we're all, to paraphrase Dad's army, we're all doomed. So I'm not persuaded that it's become ungovernable

But I do wonder whether the rubric of government has thus far failed to catch up with the combination of public and media coverage

Let me rephrase that, or at least let me clarify. So I'm thinking that governments, whether you're looking at, I suppose Rishi Sunak managed

But Rishi Sunak, of course, by dint of being a conservative, didn't have much of the UK's media baying for his blood from pretty much the moment he arrived in Downing Street

You won't believe me when I tell you, but you can check quite easily on the Internet

But they were praising Liz's trust to the rafters up until the moment that the economy essentially exploded

That's how bent and biased our media is. And, yes, newspapers don't exert the influence that they used to exert

But by the time you've stopped counting the influence that they exert on public discourse, the influence they exert on broadcasters, even broadcasters like me, who can clearly see how ridiculous and biased it all is

you can recognise how Rishi Sunak was able to at least present a semblance of stability and calm

largely because there wasn't an article in almost every newspaper almost every day

explaining how he was doomed and he was imminently to be departing

and the knives were being sharpened and because he'd accepted some free spectacles from a billionaire

he couldn't possibly continue as Prime Minister in all conscience so part of the problem is specific to the party

as in why is Keir Starmer gone but part of the problem has got

to be bigger and deeper than that because that switch from May to Johnson

from Johnson to Truss from Truss to Sunak and then from Starmer to Burnham speaks of something deeper and something that transcends and defies party politics

There is something very strange going on in the United Kingdom. And it is a sense that we can change our Prime Minister

almost as often as we change our socks, without ever actually changing much

And that's what I want you to address for me first this morning

Just very simply, why is the United Kingdom a country where we can have five prime ministers in four years

There's two ways into it. What has happened and or what is happening

We're not ungovernable, but there feels to me to be some sort of disconnect between what is plausible and possible and what is promised

It is as if people are chalking up problems that are a consequence of much bigger trends and tides to the inhabitants of Downing Street or to the party of the moment

But nothing really seems to change profoundly when we change party. So nine prime ministers in just under 20 years, when you think that Tony Blair and Margaret Thatcher between them, John Major had a fairly decent stretch as well

It used to be a truism of UK politics from 1979 onwards that prime ministers stayed in post for quite a long time

And that all began to change essentially in 2008 or 2007 or 2010, if you prefer

But I want you to tell me why. And I want you to tell me anything, really

I'm just glancing around. I've mentioned the media. The Daily Mail this morning inevitably already tries to sow division and unhappiness

Burnham doesn't speak for us, say voters in South. These ludicrous polls that are constantly conducted are framed in such a way

as to deliver precisely the front page that newspapers like the Daily Mail want

So you don't turn up with your clipboard and ask objective, interesting, insightful questions

designed to paint a picture of the country that we actually live in, you turn up with carefully constructed questions designed to deliver negative conclusions

that speak of division and unhappiness and all the rest of it

So they've got what they wanted, but that's part of the problem, isn't it? You think about how quickly it began with Keir Starmer

and it didn't happen at all with Boris Johnson. So Boris Johnson can be, I think, the worst prime minister we'll ever have

worse in many ways than Liz Truss, but we can leave that to the historians of the future

You can watch that happen. And then when you look at our media, they are tickling his toes and treating him like the Messiah

right up until the moment that his own party throw him out. And, of course, when they did throw him out

he went immediately to work for the Daily Mail as a columnist. So something about Keir Starmer's departure

has to be linked to political coverage. But if you remove the partisanship from the picture

there is a sense that political journalists have become addicted to flux

Flux is a good word. You have to be very careful to pronounce the L, otherwise Keith's tally of mistakes that I've made on the programme

will be up to three and Ofcom will be on the phone. But this flux, the political correspondents have become addicted to flux

because if you've got somebody in power for ten years, you are not going to be filing copy every couple of weeks

about how the writing's on the wall and here are the runners and riders to replace the current Prime Minister

We have all perhaps become addicted to that. We're all living in a world where

we talk about the possibility of a Prime Minister going months, years earlier

than we would have done in the past. It's become feasible. I think Liz Truss probably broke that model

more than anybody else, where you suddenly start thinking, well, they can actually go after six weeks

Therefore, it's not ridiculous to be writing articles or having phone-ins or conducting conversations

about the imminent disappearance of a sitting prime minister within minutes of them arriving in Downing Street

And I think... I think that... I think Keir Starmer might have been the first victim of that

By the time Rishi Sunak became prime minister, everybody probably wanted a period of peace

And because he isn't going to be the victim of right-wing propaganda

he was allowed to stay there for a while until, of course, he lost the general election

But Keir Starmer, possibly the first victim of a political landscape in which everybody thinks it's perfectly normal to start suggesting

that the writing's on the wall within minutes of them arriving in Downing Street

So there's answer number one to the question of why we've had five prime ministers in four years

or why we will soon have had five prime ministers in four years

I'm going to write down flux addiction. I'm also going to write down constant opinion polling

which I think is the cousin of flux addiction, constant opinion polling, as if it matters

Why does an opinion poll, looking at what the result of the next general election might be

matter four or five years out from when the next general election is likely to be

Again, Keir Starmer, not the first, but possibly the biggest victim of that

Labour MPs eventually reaching the point where they thought, well, we can't carry on like this because poll after poll after poll after poll

tells us and tells me that I'm about to lose my seat. So, flux addiction and constant opinion polling

obviously a completely bent media. I mean, it is even beyond exaggeration how ridiculous it is

for people who claim to be informed or honest, writing about how brilliant Liz Truss will be

and then just changing the cartridge in their fountain pens and writing about how Keir Starmer is a threat to civilisation as we know it

There's a reason why unhinged headline has become such a popular feature. So flux addiction, constant opinion polling, bent media

Glancing at my inbox, there is an enormously popular answer to this question that I haven't mentioned yet

No prizes for guessing what it is. But you can't just say the word or indeed write the word

You have to put flesh upon those Brexit bones. You have to tell me why Brexit, which I'm going to put down as reason number four

has contributed to an environment in which we can have, as we are about to see today, our fifth prime minister in four years

I think that's utterly unprecedented. Even when there was a little bit more flux in UK politics

you would see the same prime minister coming back for a second crack of the whip

after seeing his first crack fail. So Wilson, I suppose, would be the best example of that

You didn't change leader and change prime minister as regularly as most people change their underwear

So that's your kind of kickoff. We've got an addiction to flux

We are, partly because of that addiction, setting far too much store by opinion polls

Opinion polls should probably be banned until a year before a general election

That would be bad for me, be bad for business. It would make the job of political journalism much harder because they write thousands and thousands of words about opinion polls

But what purpose do they serve for the UK public What possible point is there to an opinion poll telling you about something that would happen in five years time if the thing that scheduled to happen in five years time actually happened tomorrow It doesn happen in any other area of life So flux addiction constant opinion polling bent media and Brexit

Pick one of those or give me your own. Why is our beloved country, and that was one of the things I liked about Andy Burnham's speech on Friday

the way he talks about how he loved the country and all different corners of it and different accents and different regions and different areas

every part of this country has something to celebrate, something beautiful. Some of them

of course, are harder to find than others, but I'm very much team Burnham when it comes to the beauty of Britain. So why has our beautiful country become a place where prime ministers

change almost as regularly as the guards at Buckingham Palace? To where I will be directing

your attention later in the programme when first Keir Starmer goes there to essentially hand in his

cards, and later Andy Burnham arrives to receive the King's blessing, if you like, for his imminent

formation of a new government. We're expecting that at about quarter past 11. Keir Starmer will

deliver a speech, then he'll head to Buckingham Palace. This is roughly when I go full Dimbleby

About an hour and a half later, or thereabouts, Andy Burnham will return from Buckingham Palace

to Downing Street and deliver a speech on those steps. And throughout all of it, I will be asking

you why we have become a country in which nobody seems to be absolutely stunned or staggered

that we're about to have our fifth prime minister in four years

What's happened and what is happening? 0345 6060 973. James O'Brien on LBC

It is 22 minutes after 10 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

where possibly another little word on the significance of this situation. It is, to say the least, suboptimal that we are changing

I mean, imagine if we changed the England manager five times in four years

I don't think we'll be talking much about the World Cup today except to say, thank goodness, Spain won

But imagine if we changed the England manager five times in four years. what would that feel like

What would the national conversation be? What would the likelihood of us performing well

in a tournament like the World Cup be? Would it increase or decrease if we were literally changing the manager

and therefore changing the tactics five times in four years? What if your boss changed five times in four years

Obviously, I don't know what you do for a living, but imagine if your boss changed five times in four years

I've been very blessed in my time at LBC in that I've had a relatively small number of bosses

But they have been very different. I've had a boss who thought that beet the sweet was the best thing since sliced bread

That was when people used to ring in and try to guess what sweet I was eating live on the radio

to which I could only answer their questions with an affirmative or a negative. It would be yes or no

I then had a boss who thought that it would be a good idea not to talk about the news every day

to kind of steer the conversation into more personal issues, so that the news would not be the Bible from which we took our daily lesson

And then latterly, and between you and me, much more successfully and happily, I've had bosses who think that you want to tune into informed and interesting conversations about current affairs

But that's three completely different ideologies, if you like, that we have had to embrace as presenters on the same radio station with essentially the same audience

Imagine if that was happening five times in four years. You're getting a completely different message from upstairs about what they want us to do in front of this microphone

So that's football. That's your job. That's life in general. It's hugely important. And yet we're just baking it in, aren't we? It's just become part of our life. Why are we a country in which five prime ministers in four years barely raises eyebrows anymore

Chris is in Sunderland. Chris, what do you reckon? Hi, James. Yeah, I really think I've got a lot of animosity towards the Conservatives

who've made it normalised now for short-termism, where the prime ministers are treated like football managers

If there's no satisfaction in the job that they're doing, they're just out. When did that start? It didn't used to be like that

It didn't, no. And you hit the nail on the head before when you were talking about the previous Labour government

There was a period of stability, you know, Tony Blair was over 10 years, Gordon Brown

When they lost the election and David Cameron got in, it was OK for a while until Brexit happened

And Brexit was just... Well, it was your fault, mate. You're in Sunderland

How dare you. Why? Why? Because, you know, I bouts a few people in my understanding of what a ridiculous exercise Brexit was and continues to be

But it was 10 years ago. why has Brexit affected why do you put Brexit near the top of the list

of things that explain how we have become a country in which five prime ministers in four years feels kind of normal

it's hard to explain but I think the timeline since Brexit happened and David Cameron left office

we've had that revolving door and again it's short termism and I think perhaps

Parliament's become addicted to it you know, they deny the leaders. But why would Brexit do that

I'm going to badger the witness a bit here. Why would Brexit do that

Because I think that your diagnosis is correct, but I don't know why Brexit is the cause

So I think, I mean, I joked on Friday, I stole the line off Simon Marks, actually

but I did credit him, which is a bit of progress as far as I'm concerned

How long will it be before we start having conversations about how long Andy Burnham's got

or does Andy Burnham need to go? And I joke that my 11 o'clock phone in today would be

is it time for Andy Burnham to resign? Of course, he won't actually have assumed the position by then

but, you know, the point stands. And that's true in Parliament. Politicians, obviously, it's one of the reasons why he's so keen to ban briefing

which, I mean, good luck with that, Andy. And it is obviously true of journalists who have become addicted to flux

Oh, I agree, yes. But why would Brexit be such? And this is a question other people can answer as well on 03456060973

Why would Brexit be such a driver of the flux addiction? Well, I mean, a lot of things changed after Brexit, didn't it

Yes. It's changed the mindset of not just politicians but the public as well. Yes

And it's hard to explain why. I struggle to put a finger on what changed in our country after Brexit

But all right, after that period of time, doesn't it? You're nodging me towards it, actually

You're getting my little grey cells whirring. And I think this is also why Donald Trump loved Brexit, because it showed..

That's another thing as well, because obviously that was around the time when Donald Trump got in

and market politics started influencing our country. So vibes took over. Brexit taught the world

All that talk about sovereignty and foreign interference, yet the right seemed to love

How many managers have Sunderland had in the last five years? I've lost count

But it's double figures, isn't it? Or thereabouts? Yeah. So there you go. That is you are the ogy made flesh, Chris

Sunderland Football Club demonstrating precisely how bonkers this would be in the context of anything else except politics

I wonder whether, and, you know, I don't necessarily want Brexit to be top of this list

but I wonder whether Brexit taught the world that a supposedly informed and educated electorate could end up voting against all observable evidence and facts

And in that world, nothing sticks. In that world, flux is inevitable

In that world, vibes are transcendent. Why on earth are we going to do that

Because we feel like it. We're going to change Prime Minister because we feel like it

I think you can deliver what I want overnight. Like the referendum result was delivered overnight and everybody started celebrating

It's only in the ensuing decade that they've realised they had absolutely nothing to celebrate

But we've become addicted to the quick fix, the quick hit. And if you're addicted to quick fixes, Chris, then of course you're going to change prime minister every 20 minutes

Yeah, then again, that comes down to the politicians who are driving it, isn't it

And the short termism, I think, is part of them looking after their own positions in government, in parliament

you know they want these quick fixes to to save their own skin in effect and that affects

that affects the country as well because they see it happening and then subconsciously enough

people think and probably i don't want to sound patronizing maybe we all feel this to various

degrees subconsciously we all think things can be done overnight and then of course you have

populist politicians promising to to deliver the world yesterday i think we're going to add quick

fixes to the list, aren't we? Yeah, it's the kind of mindset that everybody's settled into now

and it's not good because it's not working. No. And look at every

other area of life. Look at football, look at business, look at your job, look at my job

look at absolutely anything and tell me, look at a warship, look at the Navy

look at the Army and tell me that changing the top man or woman five

times in four years is not a recipe for, if not disaster

then certainly suboptimal situations. I love that. So now we've got flux addiction

which I suspect I'm not the only one who suddenly starts thinking of Back to the Future

at the appearance of the word flux. Constant opinion polling. I'd like you to put more flesh on those bones

A bent media. We go on about that a lot on this programme because somebody has to

but it is also true. Brexit. But more as a sort of symptom..

Brexit needs more work as well. And then quick fixes. Because if you're addicted to quick fixes

it's a bit like self-help books. You know, you're addicted to them. Why do you need 10 self-help books

Nobody should own more than one self-help book. Because if self-help books work, you only need one

Am I right? Why are there shelves and shelves and shelves of self-help books in Waterstones

There should only be one self-help book. So we're addicted to quick fixes. Well, that hasn't worked, but I still believe in quick fixes

So let's have another go. I'm not minded currently to take your calls on why it all went so wrong for Keir Starmer

but it underpins the conversation that we're having, I think. The time now is half past 10

You are listening to and indeed watching James O'Brien, not just on LBC, but also broadcasting live from Westminster on YouTube, the LBC app and Global Player

No definite article. Natasha Clark will be joining me live from Downing Street in just a moment to, well, essentially to say again in a slightly different order things she's already said at least three times today

Here's Dominic Ellis with the headlines. James O'Brien on LBC. It's 10.34. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC

It's one of the great truisms of journalism. Dog bites man is not news

Man bites dog is news. You've heard this before. If you haven't heard it from me, you've heard it from one of us

or you've heard it from someone. How many times does a man have to bite a dog

before it ceases to be big news? I ask because this is today the fifth day in the last four years

upon which a new prime minister is going to be installed. And it is still a momentous occasion

But it gets a little bit less momentous, doesn't it, with repetition or does it

And that's why today the question I'm asking you is why? And indeed, how have we become a country in which this momentous thing

can happen pretty much every moment? Now, I say Brexit, you say Femi

Femi, Brexit. Brexit. Femi. I haven't spoken to him in ages. Femi Oluwole, who you will remember is a tireless chronicler

of the madness of Brexit. So I suspect, I know, at least the beginning of your answer, Femi

in Birmingham will be to the question, why is our country in such a ridiculous state

of constant flux? Yeah, so the reason why Brexit is at the heart of it, along with the voting system, is because

Brexit was the thing that made it OK for politicians to explicitly and overtly say, I'm going to

hurt you. In 2018, it was leaked from government documents that no matter what version of Brexit they

negotiated, it was going to make people poor, which means that every politician from that

point on, who supported Brexit, was saying, I'm deliberately going to make you poor. And we've

seen that continue right now with the Reform Party saying, yes, Brexit has hurt you. We intend to

make it worse. I've interviewed Reform Party candidates who have said explicitly, yes

we want to go for no deal Brexit still. Yes, that would damage our food supply for the next 20 years

But the people that they are appealing to don't believe that it's going to make their lives worse

They still believe that it's going to make their lives better. So it's a little, and I've interrupted

So possibly you were moving to address this anyway, but it's surely a bit subtler than you allow

Well, I know you weren't a fan of opinion polls earlier in this conversation

but an opinion polling shows that by a ratio of 45 to 9

Brexit voters themselves believe that Brexit has made them poor. But they didn't think it was going to, and most of them would argue that that's because it hasn't been done properly

There is a brilliant Brexit, but it goes to a different school. So, yes, originally they thought that

But that's the reason why we've now seen a massive shift in terms of people, generally speaking, believing that Brexit was a mistake

because even those Brexit voters who originally believed that it would make them better off have now changed tune

But ultimately, my point is more about the politicians themselves. If you are getting into power with the position of, I'm going to make people poorer, and Nigel Farage literally said in 2018..

Careful. Yeah, just keep everything national, won't you? I know you will, Femi. You know what you're doing

Oh, sorry, yes. Certain politicians have said in the past, Do you know what I'm asked about, we're going to rich or poor with Brexit

Your answer is, what price freedom? What price liberty? What price our identity as a country

These are the arguments, actually, that really matter. So that kind of attitude of it's okay to make people poor, you can't run a government like that

And because of what we've seen since then, we've seen that Brexit as a concept has also damaged the actual mentality of the politicians

For example, Boris Johnson, his entire Brexit rhetoric was based on the idea of it's OK to ignore experts

It's OK to prioritise liberty, sovereignty in the name of personal freedom

And we shouldn't be doing what other countries shouldn't be following the example of other countries

So I'm missing I'm missing a nodal connector. I think your ysis of Brexit is faultless, as always

You can enjoy more of Femi and all the usual places as YouTube

I call them tutorials, mate. I don't know if that's the correct word, but I found them invaluable over the years

I agree entirely with your ysis of Brexit, and I agree almost entirely with your apportioning of blame

But I don't yet see why that creates the atmosphere of flux, the atmosphere of constant change

How, for example, do the consequences of Brexit account for the brevity of Keir Starmer's premiership

So with him, that is A, because he supported a Brexit that the majority of his voters

So he lost incredible amounts of support from his own side. That's true

If he's, like, even with Boris Johnson, he was more popular because at least he had the support of the right at the beginning

whereas Keir Starmer came to power promising to be a party of the center ground, was how he put it

which immediately alienated the left, and obviously he wasn't going to appeal to the right enough, even though he tried

So he never had any real support. It was just an anti-Tory vote which immediately vanished as soon as the Tories were gone

and that is where the voting system comes into it because we have politicians who have to try and appeal

to as many people as possible they can't really be truly authentically of the left

or authentically of the right they have to try and get mainstream appeal

in order to win in this two-party system that's first past the post-voting system so the impossibility of Brexit being anything other than bad

and you can have gradations of badness you can call it a disaster or you can call it suboptimal

but no one can really portray it as a positive and sleep straight in their beds at night

creates a legacy in which it's impossible to do normal politics. Well, I mean, your average voter will genuinely believe from their heart of hearts

that they are ticking that box in that voting booth for the purpose of making their lives better

Yes. But if you have politicians who come into power explicitly saying, I'm going to make you poor, and all the politicians..

But they never explicitly say that, Femi, but it's actually implicit. Yeah, I mean, I understand your point, but no one is going to get elected saying, I promise to make you poorer

They know they're going to make people poorer, but they're still promising to make them richer

Yes, but if you have Keir Starmer saying that Brexit is damaging the economy, as they've been saying forever

and then saying, but I will still keep supporting Brexit, then the implication of that is, I plan to make you poorer

Yeah, no, OK. And it breaks something. The social contract trust, and regardless of how many people listening to this still reject the idea that Brexit was an unmitigated disaster

you've been broken as well because you didn't get any of the things that you were promised by the people that told you it would be a good thing

I've got Natasha waiting for me, so do this one very briefly. It doesn't exactly augur well for Andy Burnham then, does it, given that none of the things that you describe are likely to change or disappear just because we've got yet another body in Downing Street

Well, that's the painful thing about it, because he hasn't in the past said that we need to rejoin the EU

He said we need a new voting system. But then he said that we shouldn't rejoin the EU within his lifetime

And the problem with that is his argument for that was, well, it's up to the EU to decide whether or not we can rejoin

But I literally just got back from Brussels where I spoke to the officials of Brussels

For example, Sandro Gozi, the head of Brexit in the European Parliament, who explicitly said not only is it time for the UK to come back

But it's also time to make people responsible for that, like Nigel Farage, pay for the damage that they've done

So there is no massive block on the EU side. It is the UK's choice whether or not we start to undo the poverty that Brexit has caused

And unfortunately, too many politicians are telling you, no, we'd like to keep making you poor

I like it. Well, I don't like it. I like your ysis because it's insightful and helpful

But I don't like the picture that you paint, albeit that I think it's probably accurate. But as with all calls to this program, you're welcome to pick holes in what Femi in Birmingham has told us

as you've heard, Femi Oluwole. The tireless, I mean, anti-Brexit sounds like such a ridiculous label now

doesn't it? Should we just say the tireless pro-reality and pro-evidence campaigner

Of course, the prospect of Nigel Farish paying for anything is, well, should we say, unlikely

And even if he did, he'd probably get the money off Christopher Harbourn anyway. It's 10.42

Natasha Clarke is live at Downing Street to say things that she's already said

on at least three occasions, but in a slightly different order. Natasha, good morning. Good morning, James. I've actually spent the last hour or so thinking of some new things and speaking to some people

Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Very latest from number 10. I would never, never want to repeat old, boring old content I've already told the nation before

because obviously they've all been listening all morning, so they know it all already. And watching, Natasha. And watching

Just in case you have just been tuning in, of course, and watching. But just to recap, in case you have not been listening all morning, as I'm sure everybody here on LBC has

We're expecting to hear from the outgoing Prime Minister Keir Starmer just after 11 o'clock

Then he's going to be making his way to Buckingham Palace to formally tender his resignation to the king

Around the same time, we expect Andy Burnham to then make his way to Buckingham Palace

where he will be invited to form a new government. And here in Downing Street is where we will expect to see him at the podium just before one o'clock this afternoon

So it's all happening in your show, James. As always, you get the best Prime Minister transition time because it's all happening within your show

And the temperature is really heating up here in Downing Street. A gaggle of Keir Starmer supporters is standing

You can't see just out of shot, but by the gates to Downing Street, they are assembling ready to say goodbye to the Prime Minister

They will be standing in the street as he makes his sort of exit speech and then travels down to Buckingham Palace

I can see a newborn baby as well just in the corner of my eye as well. I'm not quite sure whose that is, but people, guests old and new

are here to see the old Prime Minister out and welcome the new Prime Minister in

I'm sure it does get kissed later. I'm sure that's exactly why this baby is in Downing Street later

But yes, the England flags have been unfortunately taken down since last time I was here in Downing Street

which is a little bit sad. It does just change the decor a little bit

But yes, we will expect to see the outgoing prime minister in just around an hour or so's time

I can see his key aides just behind me planning out exactly where he's going to stand

All of the obviously wires getting connected up. The podium will be rolled out shortly where he will be speaking to the nation

And obviously a very sad day for many of those number 10 staff. Some of them I've been speaking to this morning are going to be staying on to see Keir Starmer's transition of power into Andy Burnham

which is going to be very odd for them. The man they've been working for for the last two years is essentially going to be morphing into a new person basically overnight

So it'll be a strange experience for some of those people in Downing Street

And then, of course, later this afternoon, James, we will see the all important cabinet be appointed and expecting big jobs for people like Shibana Mahmood

who is being tipped to become the new chancellor. She's currently, of course, Home Secretary

And also in the last few hours, I'm told, Angela Rayner, a big job expected for the former deputy prime minister

expected to make a return to cabinet. No one's quite exactly sure which job she is going to be getting yet

but I'm told that housing might be something that she will return back to. Of course, she was the housing secretary

before she had to resign from Keir Starmer's government last year. So it's all happening here in Downing Street, James

Thank you. Natasha Clarke, LBC's political editor, on the ground in Downing Street

and making a monkey out of me by absolutely sharing some new information

as she will continue to do throughout the day. And, of course, Sheila will be in the chair

and possibly Tom by the time those, yeah, and Tom as well

by the time those announcements begin to be made. She did remind me, though, with the mention of the flags

that there's a parallel timeline, isn't there, where Andy Barnum would have been arriving in Downing Street today

with a nation still high upon the fumes of winning the World Cup

I mean, it was far from impossible, closer, in fact, to happening

than pretty much at any point in the last 60 years Well never actually would you have had the arrival of a new prime minister so fast upon a massive sporting success So it the mighty morphing Labour leaders to paraphrase Natasha Clarke More on this today Andrew Marr joining me at about 11 o He

of course, has counted them in and counted them out like almost no other. Keir Starmer set to

speak for about five minutes, we think, at quarter past 11 before heading off to Buckingham Palace

where he will meet the king. And Andy Burnham will arrive there shortly afterwards before

returning to Downing Street and delivering a speech. I've heard a whisper that Andy Burnham is going to

one of my favourite words, incoming, he's going to eschew the lectern

Quite how you deliver a speech, you'd have to have a mic on his lapel, would he, or something like that

or I may have been hideously misinformed, but we will see. And then the Cabinet appointments will begin at approximate

just as I clock off, really, with the senior roles generally all in place by late afternoon

You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. The question that we are wrestling with, with these punctuation marks of moment, if you like, is very simple

How have we ended up being a country, becoming a country, living in a country where five prime ministers in four years feels almost normal

The list so far, flux addiction, constant opinion polling. I think they're cousins, aren't they

Event media, of course. Brexit, inevitably, as brilliantly explained a moment ago by Femi

And an addiction to quick fixes. So they're all so far variations on a similar thing, but they merit, I think, individual status as well

Flux addiction, constant opinion polling. Not all opinion polls. I didn't mean to suggest, for example, that tracking views of whether Brexit was a disaster or whether we should spend more money on defence

They're good. I just mean having opinion polls about the next general election up to five years before the next general election is going to happen

It's pointless. Flux addiction, constant polling, bent media, Brexit, quick fixes. What would you like to add to that list or indeed take off it

It's 10.48. James O'Brien on LBC. It's 10.51 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

Let's rattle through some text before we get back to the phones. Why are we looking at the 5pm in four years

Because people have the attention span of a gnat, suggests Sue in Ramsgate

And she might be onto something there. Ian suggests that it's because of Amazon's next day delivery that people's patience has been completely diminished

Listen, these are all going to be brushstrokes upon the portrait that we paint together

But how many or indeed how significant these suggestions are is up for debate

You're missing one out, James. Much as I love your programme and listen every day, writes another James

24 hour news and phone ins when there is actually nothing to talk about

sound a death knell for calm, sensible politics. Yeah, OK. I mean, 24-hour news is a relatively new arrival

Radio phone-ins aren't. LBC's been around since about 1973, so I don't think you can pin that one on us

But, yeah, that idea of possibly that flux addiction being somehow linked to the idea that the news is so breathless

Who's going to be? In fact, we could open a book now. Who will be the first columnist or pundit or commentator

to predict that Andy Burnham's days are numbered. Somebody will. Channel 4, writes Steve, have done a really good piece on this

suggesting that an era of multiple PMs does have a precedent over the last 200 years, but you'd have to go back 100 years

for the last one, to the 1920s. So a political and economic shock

So in the 20s, it was the legacy of World War I. Today, it is, of course, Brexit

which is why so many people are mentioning it. Point two, a weakening of the two-party system

In the 20s, you had Labour replacing the old Liberals. Now you've got Reform Plied Cymru and the Greens on the march

And number three, new media. In the 1920s, it was radio and nationally circulated newspapers

For us in this era, it's social media. The Times are obviously very different, but these similarities are worth noting, aren't they

time suggests that we will actually return to stability at some point

And I think Steve speaks for almost all of us when he says, hopefully soon

And one more from Ian in Callington. James, this all began with Johnson

His unashamed misbehaviour, giving permission to the easily led masses that it's OK, even cool to misbehave

And one of those misbehaviours is, of course, intolerance. Hence the position that we are in right now with the frequent changing of prime ministers

The king, I can tell you, has arrived at Buckingham Palace where he doesn't currently live

I've actually broken the habit of a lifetime. I've done a little bit of homework. So that, albeit that I intend to still tickle you and amuse you with my irreverent coverage of these matters

I don't want that to overcloud or overshadow the important bits. So the king has arrived at Buckingham Palace where he doesn't currently live and where he is not intending to live

when the current refurbishment is complete. He will remain at Clarence House

And I can see why, actually. Something that I've hinted at in recent weeks

but haven't actually told you explicitly is that I had the great privilege of visiting Buckingham Palace

just a few weeks ago. I didn't see the king. I wasn't visiting him

But it is a curious place. I wouldn't go so far as to describe it as soulless

but I have no trouble whatsoever understanding why the king and the queen, who I think deserve their home comforts

not least because of the illness that the king continues to battle, have elected not to actually live there

And to make that official rather than just to not spend a great deal of time there

as his predecessor and mother the queen did. I've also got some extraordinary information for you, which I think is new

I mean, you may have heard it before, but if you've heard it before, You have to be a bit of an anorak on exactly what the decor in the rooms that Andy Burnham will walk through on his way to meet the king looks like and why it looks like what it looks like

So all of that to come. Keir Starmer supporters arriving at Downing Street in anticipation of a speech in approximately 20 minutes time

One would hope for a fairly good natured exchange. But only time will tell

Michelle is in Skipton in North Yorkshire. Michelle, what would you like to say? Hi, James

Hello, Michelle. Yeah, I listened to what Femi had to say, and I think what I'm going to say is probably related to that as well

but also the text that you've just read out from Steve about going back 100 years

Yes. There's also a connection there. So I think Brexit, the Brexit result was

because people were really starting to feel that times were getting harder

and they were looking for change, and they were given lots of reasons why leaving Europe would make things less difficult

would have more money floating in the system. So that's what started it, I think

And I think since then, because people have not felt better off

in fact, many people are feeling more and more hard up, they're still looking for that change that they voted for as part of Brexit

So every time there's a vote, But, well, let's look at when the Conservatives were booted out, sort of quite, yeah, shockingly

It was a big change and Keir Starmer came in on that change Immediately almost they decided Kia Starmer was despicable because he promised change but they not feeling anything

Part of it is to do with that. Somebody else has mentioned the Amazon next day delivery

that kind of feeling that everybody's, or many people... I want it all, and I want it now

Yeah, yeah. Not got the patience to wait. May understand that something that's taken so long to get to that state

will actually take a long time to reverse. to make us feel better, but can't really wait around for it

because things are just getting so hard, they're getting so desperate. And then, you know, we get reform coming in, doing all the promises

I think that's what's triggered the, well, it is what's triggered the leadership change in Labour, isn't it

Because they can see what's happening and they know that they've got to make a quick change before

This is really smart. So change has become an end in itself as a consequence of Brexit

and it's going to be largely subconscious as opposed to a means to an end

So why are we changing? Well, because that is how we achieve X, Y and Z

Versus the new model, which is why are we changing? Oh, because we've run out of patience with the last lot

So we're going to change. And Stalmer actually is a victim of that

even as most labor activists and indeed labor MPs who've speeded Keir Stalmer's exit from Downing Street

might dispute it or would object to seeing themselves put in the same category as Brexiters

Starmer is a victim of that. We need a change without really digging that deeply into why we need a change

or what that change would look like. Well, the change needs to be, I think, quite a radical change

that upends a lot of the way things are working at the moment so that the ordinary person in some of these very deprived areas

that lost their industries and stuff, they are the people that really need to start feeling

like life has turned a corner for them. And even if that's too much to ask in the short term

they need to feel seen and heard in ways that perhaps they haven't before

But that casting of change as an end in itself rather than a means to an end, that knits together

as you suggested you were going to, it knits together an awful lot of the other themes that have come up

And at risk of sounding patronizing to people, not to you, the grownups should be better than that

The grownups should be saying, no, you wait till your father gets home or saying, no, you can't have that

You'll have to wait and see what Father Christmas brings. Do you see what I mean? It's this idea that we grew up knowing that patience is a virtue

Whereas today, people partly because of Brexit, partly because of life itself, have been persuaded that they can have everything yesterday and that change will somehow equal improvement

But of course, if Brexit taught us anything, it was that change doesn't necessarily turn out to be for the better

That's brilliant, Michelle. Thank you. It's coming up to 11 o'clock. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

I have a view of Natasha's view at the moment. She's on a sort of scaffolded, eerie overlooking Downing Street where the mass ranks of the world's media, and of course most prominently the countries, this country's media, are gathered, awaiting for the fifth time in four years the departure of a UK prime minister

And we will be taking that live. But first, your news headlines

James O'Brien on LBC. Nobody's mentioned social media. We probably will turn our attention to that at some point in the coming couple of hours

It's three minutes after 11. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC, where we are for the fifth time in four years

marking a changing of personnel at number 10 Downing Street. Andrew Marr, who I hope won't be embarrassed by my first question

How many of these have you done now? It goes right back to the end of Margaret Thatcher

You'll have to count them off on your fingers then. And I think my first big political crisis as a reporter was Michael Heseltine storming out of Downing Street after rowing with Margaret Thatcher about the Westland crisis in, I think, 1984

Gosh, yeah, that's my A-level politics project. Why do you think, I mean, the question I've been asking callers this morning is how do you account for this addiction to flux that seems to typify UK politics at the moment

Good question. I think we are a declining economy, struggling economy. in a part of the world, the so-called West, which is, apart from America, in real trouble

hemmed in by the rise of the industrial powers in the East. That means that ordinary people find life gets harder and harder and harder

and their kids have less prospects than they did, and they look around for somebody to blame

and we all flail around, we think it's their fault or it's that fault, and we bring in people with simple ideas

I don't know if you've ever mentioned Brexit on the show. No, never. What is it

You know, people come in with an answer, sort this out and everything will be all right

It's all migration. It's all this. It's all that. And each prime minister doesn't make the same mistakes as the predecessor did, but makes new mistakes all of their own

And so it goes on. What do you know about Andy Burnham? You must have encountered him quite a lot over the years

I think he's somebody who's been on the long personal journey. I interviewed him years ago for LBC about, you know, this idea that he sort of flipped and flopped and changed his mind a bit and been a slightly different character when he was down as a minister before

And he said something very interesting. He said, all my life, when I came down south from Manchester as a student and from then on, I suffered from imposter syndrome

Didn't really know who I was, why I was, you know, what my purpose was

And I struggled. It was only when I came back and confronted the Hillsborough problem

Hillsborough disaster at the Kop on that famous afternoon, that I suddenly remembered, oh, yes, I'm that guy from Manchester

This is who I am. And therefore, the years as Manchester mayor, I think

have given him a sense of self that he hadn't had before and that we as a country are going to need very badly now

Yes, you did the first interview with him, of course, after he won that Makerfield by election

And I'm interested to hear you say that because, I mean, You've interviewed an awful lot of politicians over the years, and an awful lot of them would have been pouring untruths into your ears or displaying inauthenticity

You really buy this idea that Andy Burnham, because he said it to me as well

And for the record, I also believed him that he has been on the kind of journey that should diffuse or remove references back to him losing against Jeremy Corbyn or losing to against Ed Miliband

because he is now both a different man and a different politician

Neither of us can know what's going on behind his face and inside his private mind

I just see somebody who at the very, very least has the optimism, the gusto, the oomph, the relish, whatever you call it, to hold power

And I think we're just waiting for Keir Starmer to come out. And Keir had many, many qualities, but he did not relish power

He did not enjoy the job. It's the hardest job in the country. It's a really miserably hard job in many ways

and at least you have to have a relish for it. And I think we're about to see a Prime Minister who does

Indeed as Andrew mentions we have got one eye on each other and the other eye on Downing Street where there is quite a gathering now of Kirsten Starr staff outside Downing Street on one side of that famous thoroughfare

That's the sort of phrase you use, right, when you're doing things like this, famous thoroughfare, Andrew

That's the language that you'd never deploy in normal life at moments like this

Except, of course, it's not a thoroughfare. Yeah, but no-one likes a peddance. It was once. It was a thoroughfare

It was a long time ago. Let me try again. The famous former thoroughfare

Of course. On one side you have Keir Starmer's staff and on the other side a mixture of media and supporters

The lectern is in place. No podium for fans of pedantry. It is just the lectern

And Starmer's set to speak, we think, in the next seven or eight minutes. He's not going to be doused as poor Rishi Sunak was in that famous occasion

No, he didn't bring an umbrella with him. But there is a danger if he leaves it much longer that some of his staff will keel over with sunstroke

One of those cameras is firing off. You mentioned he hasn't enjoyed the job

Did that surprise you? Because he'd find out fairly quickly, wouldn't he? And his rise was surprisingly quick and easy, actually

for a man who ended up prime minister. And there are lots of bits of the job he did well and did enjoy

He was actually quite a good speaker at party conference. He did that

He got on very well on the world stage and clearly enjoyed that aspect of it

But I think he had two real problems which became fatal. he wasn't really interested in politics

was one you know he didn't like the whole game of politics and you can be high minded about it

and say it's all a bit shabby but it's absolutely essential you know these people are tradesmen

they're craftsmen there is a craft of politics which he disdained and a big part of that second

was just listening to people people around him would tell him things and he would ignore them and listen

and very often move them aside and bring in somebody else and you know you cannot run

a successful team like that And that, of course, led to a surfeit of delegation

Absolutely. Delegation, but at the same time, without a very clear sense of what the boss wanted

He used to say in the Tony Blair years, Angie Hunter or Powell, whoever it was, would come in and say, Tony wants this

Tony wants that. And everybody knew that came from the top. There was a sort of direction

Nobody said Keir wants and was really heard. How do we think Andy Burnham will deal with the abuse that he is now likely to face

Not just, of course, from traditional media, where we've plied our trade for a while, but also this new environment of social media where anything goes

Here is an unexpected thought. I think there is a comparison to be made between Andy Burnham and Donald Trump

And I mean by that that they both understand that this new world of social media, so-called social, anti-social media, is the world in which we all live

And Trump understands that you have to sort of dominate and grab people's attention all day, every day

And he does it by extraordinarily vituperative or funny or just abusive messages on truth social the whole time

And the entire world sort of snaps around and watches him. Now, Andy Berners is in a different position

but those little films that he's putting out every single day on X and on the other social media platforms

I think very professionally done, very entertaining, you know, quite affecting sometimes about his musical taste

and what he thinks about football and VR and what he thinks about clothes, what he thinks about can we be paid, knock and blah, blah, blah

That is a new way of getting into our heads. Quite interesting. Oh, it's doubly interesting because it insulates him

from the Starmer criticism of not really knowing who he is or what he stands for. He's coming out of the bloc at full speed saying, this is me

Here is who I am. I mean, he will want, within a few weeks or months, everybody in the country to have a clear idea

when you say the words Andy Burnham, what you're talking about. What do we think Keir Starmer will do next

Very interesting. I was talking to Jenny Chapman, the Foreign Office baroness

who knows him very well, and she gave me a broad hint that he'd do something on the international stage, she thought

And I wonder whether the NATO job will come up, something like that. I don't know. He's well thought of in those

There's a rumour, as you know, that he might, although he said he'll stay as an MP, he might actually give up Holborn and some Pancras

and allow David Miliband to come back into the Commons. Yes. Well, as I said, the addiction to flux is unlikely to alleviate any time soon

albeit that I think everybody really, almost for patriotic reasons, Andrew, would quite like to see a decent tenure in Downing Street

Give the guy a chance. in the back of my head inappropriately

because they were not a pro-Labour band. I've got Chumba Wumba. You know, we fall down, we get back up again

That's the message. We have to get back up again. Let's not have a whiskey drink or indeed a lager drink just yet

It's 12 minutes after 11. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC

Andrew Mark is in the studio with me. Natasha Clark remains at Downing Street

where the crowds are considerable, but that's pretty much par for the course, Natasha

This is mentioned at the very top of the show that we could only retain so many memories in our human minds

But for people who can't remember or don't have a frame of reference, this is pretty much how it always goes now

Yes, that's right, James. And my apologies for using the podium. It's obviously a lectern. You can see it's a lectern

But for some reason in our collective minds, it's seen as the podium moment when it comes out and is rolled out of number 10 Downing Street

But yes, this is exactly what happens when there is a transition from one prime minister to another

Sometimes we don't always hear from the outgoing leader, but usually we do

Usually we get a couple of minutes speech. And I'm told that this speech from Sir Keir Starmer that we'll be getting in the next few minutes is going to be quite short

It will essentially just be a repetition of the speeches that he's already delivered twice now

once in prime minister's questions last week, as we were discussing. and, of course, before when he actually came out to the lectern a few weeks ago

announcing that he was going to resign. And he is surrounded at the moment, and you can see them behind me

All of Keir Starmer's top team is there, including some very significant members of the Cabinet

that have been by his side since day one, since he was elected into governments back in 2024

I can see Rachel Reeves, the Chancellor, David Lammy as well, the Deputy Prime Minister, and a number of Keir Starmer's top team

all gathering to essentially say their farewell moments. And there will be questions for many of those Cabinet ministers today

about their political futures. I've been hearing a lot about Rachel Reeves in the last few days

There is a suggestion that she may stay on with a job in some form, but we're not quite sure exactly what that would look like

Again, David Lammy is somebody that I have heard may be kept on in Andy Burnham's top team

But James, as we've been discussing for a while now, we know that Andy Burnham has got a lot of people in his top team to please

We're not expecting to see him lay out this cabinet until mid-afternoon

Big jobs, as I was discussing with you earlier, for people like Angela Rayner, Lisa Nandy, Ed Miliband, Shepana Mahmood

But we don't know exactly what that top team is going to look like until Andy Burnham does make up his cabinet later today

I think we are just about to see... And here he is. ...and his wife, Victoria, now making their way out

Sir Keir Starmer addressing the nation for the final time as Prime Minister. Thank you

Thank you. Thank you very much and good morning. I'm about to visit His Majesty the King to offer my resignation and close the book on my time as Prime Minister

My work is done. In six and a half years, I took our party from a historic defeat in 2019

changed it so it was fit to face the country, and won a landslide general election victory in 2024

Since then, it has been the privilege of my life to serve you and this great country as Prime Minister

and I am confident that Britain is now stronger and fairer than it was two years ago

Our economy is stronger. Our public services are on the up with the biggest fall in waiting times for 17 years

Children are being lifted out of poverty every single day. Immigration is down significantly

Our defence and security are on a far stronger footing and our international reputation is greatly enhanced

Yet the thing I will always take away with me, the most humbling aspect of this job, is the front row seat you get to witness the greatest things of this country in action

to see every day immeasurable acts of resolve, grit, decency and compassion

from people who serve our country, whether that's in their regimental colours, NHS scrubs

or simply the millions of people in their communities who volunteer their time and their effort to the ground beneath their feet

We face a world now where our enemies will stop at nothing to divide us because of our values, our freedom, our decency and frankly because of our unflinching resolve towards the brave people of Ukraine

and so under this attack it is vital that we remember the greatness of the britain all around

us that while we debate how to fix our problems there is something we inherit from our country

and our character that can give us confidence that we can change our country for the better

that we can create a britain where every child can go as far as their talent will take them

And we can unite different people under our common flag if we don't succumb to that division

So as I now pass the baton to Andy Burnham, I wish him every success

He has my full support. And finally, I want to thank once again my family, Vic and our children

my team, all the staff here and across the Labour Party. Everyone at Number 10 and across the Civil Service, and everyone who has supported our efforts along the way

For all the focus on individuals, politics will always be a team sport

And the changes we've delivered for our country and our party belong to everyone who has fought for them

I thank them again today, and I thank the British people for the opportunity to serve

I go with good grace, I go with a smile and I go proud of everything that we have achieved

Thank you very much. Sir Keir Starmer there, bidding farewell to both the office of Prime Minister

and the country he has led for two years. Almost exactly as Natasha predicted

a reprise of the speeches that he has given at PMQs and elsewhere

And Andrew Marr, still in the studio with me, a palpable sense, correct me if I'm wrong, Andrew, of relief

I mean, these are moments that are often... He looks, is he not, genuinely quite happy to be off, I have to say

And he did something, I'm giving credit for this, which very few politicians do

He realised we don't want to listen to them forever. He was quite terse, quite quick

And now Sir Keir Starmer and his wife Victoria walk hand-in-hand down the former thoroughfare of Bowning Street

once again, and prepared to get into the car that we'll take them to Buckingham Palace

but once again, and almost... I've used the word relief already. There's almost a celebratory air

I have thought, ever since he realised he was losing office, right at that extraordinarily disciplined, fast Burnham coup

which we were told the Labour Party would never achieve but did, I think the relief has been clearer and clearer

He's been enjoying himself in the House of Commons exchanges with Kemi Badenock

And that last... I remember I was listening to you and Natasha talk about it

It was charming, wasn't it? And it was charming. He's enjoying... As I say

I don't think he ever really liked the job or enjoyed it. Much to his own surprise, I imagine

and you spend all your life focusing on getting it, that you never really stop to think whether you'll want to really get it

It actually is. Which is not a fate that's likely to befall Andy Burnham

who pretty much knows exactly what he's letting himself in for, I think. And we can see in Downing Street

almost all the people that we expect to leave government quickly. There's Lord Hermer, Rachel Reeves, David Lammy, all there

all likely to lose prominent cabinet positions. What's the dynamic usually? I mean, will they be offered demotions or will they be shown the door

I think probably in most cases, Rachel Reeves is perhaps a different case

But in most of the cases of people going, it'll be short, it'll be apologetic. I'm terribly sorry

I need that seat. I need to make room for you. It won't be like the famous Atlee moment where a junior minister came in and said

I'm terribly sorry. I'm dismissing you from your job. The guy said, but, you know, I've done this

Why are you doing that? Atlee takes his pipe out of his mouth, looks up and said, not up to it, I'm afraid

I don't think it'll be like that. A different era. Speaking of which, when you were on duty where Natasha is now

did you ever yourself or indeed witness anybody else get a substantive answer to the questions that you bellow

as the comers and goers? No, never. But it's all part of the pantomime

Back in the old days, there's a wonderful BBC guy, known, I'm afraid, as Gobby

Yes, of course. Who would bellow these questions, increasingly rude, just trying to get them to smile or turn or something

But it was mostly fruitless. He was a film producer, wasn't he? He wasn't actually

So he was just trying to get shots. He was trying to get the camera, get a cue, so tee something up for the camera

He was a master at lobbying the kind of just slightly offensive but interesting question at the right moment

Sir Keir Starmer, as I say, now making the relatively short cart journey to Buckingham Palace

where he will meet the king. Natasha Clarke is still at Downing Street

waiting, of course, for the next chapter in this unfolding saga, which will be Andy Burnham's arrival there

and his speech of welcome. I'm thinking of all the tears. Not to labour the point Andrew but I am really struck by what you just perfectly encapsulated the sense that Keir Starmer is as happy as anybody else that he quitting there

except possibly Andy Burnham. Yeah. I mean, he was very angry before it happened

Yes. And he fought very hard and his team fought very, very hard for him

But once he realised it was inevitable, and it was, I think it was the numbers in Makerfield

that made it inevitable. You know, we all thought, well, if he's just going, you know, Maybe Andy Burnham will be defeated by reforming Makerfield

or maybe he'll win, but only just, and he won't be convincing. But the size of his victory meant there was just unstoppable momentum

And, as you say, a sort of period of relative grace now for Burnham to get his house in order and to assemble his team

What are his top priorities? What are the biggest things you think he needs to do? Well, first of all, it's going to be a very, very busy afternoon

You know, lots and lots of jobs to be announced. And by this evening, we'll know much more about the shape of his government

and his determination. He wants to reshape the whole centre of British government, a new prime minister's department, not just number 10 north, but really to get a grip on the Treasury from the number 10 point of view

Lots and lots of that. In terms of policy priorities, I think there's two different things

He wants to put more money in people's pockets, which means cheaper bus fares, perhaps

It might mean cuts on energy bills, whatever it means, so that people notice that he's there short term

You have to you have to arrive and be noticed. You'll be judged very, very quickly

And then he has to sort of settle about the big long-term problems, you know, the ballooning welfare bill, what he's going to have to say about, I think, the triple lock for a start, but also about pips

That'll be difficult. Where's he going to find the money for defence? That'll be difficult. And so on and so on

And the wheels will move very, very quickly on the coverage of that and indeed the coverage of the apparent failure to do so

With a car now arriving at Buckingham Palace, where Sir Keir Starmer prepares to meet the king, to hand over his resignation

King Charles, I suppose, had a little bit more in the first couple of years of his reign, or five years of his reign, than most monarchs would expect to have

As we've touched on earlier, going back to the 1920s, to look for a sort of comparable era of change and flux

The palace is currently undergoing a period of refurbishment. So while the cameras won't be accompanying Sir Keir and Victoria Starmer

I don't know whether or not they will be actually ushered through some of the areas

that look a little bit like a building site at the moment

And one of the interesting things about Buckingham Palace is that away from the state rooms

it's a bit like a department store. I'm not sure this is a parallel that's ever been drawn before

I was going to say like an elderly railway hotel from the 1930s

That's the bits you can see. But when you go through the doors that are not the staterooms, it's like a sort of 1970s prep school or a department store where the public, where the customers never go

You know, the stairwells are sort of lino and tatty fixtures and fittings and tatty furnishings

They're doing that now. And the main hall that they will enter into, which is the hall off which both the king's office and the office that the king currently uses and the room where the balcony is, the famous balcony, that hallway is replete with what I believe the technical term is chinoiserie

This is my nugget of information, Andrew Marr, that I've been saving up all day and indeed all weekend

It was worth waiting for. I haven't finished. I haven't finished because it's slightly incongruous

You wouldn't necessarily expect the seat of the British monarch to find yourself moving through a corridor where the decor and the fixtures and fittings and the decorations are all of a distinctly oriental mien

Do you know why that is? I think you're going to tell us. Yes, but do you know why that is

No, I don't. I assume this is stuff that when we were out there, here's some stuff, they said

No, this is entirely self-generated. This is entirely a discovery of my own making

I doubt very much that it's never been put in the public sphere before. But when Queen Victoria sold the Royal Pavilion to Brighton City Council, so we're going back a while

It is rumoured that Brighton Council thought that they were getting the property as seen

Oh, she just ripped it all out. Yes, so they thought they were getting all of the internal decorations

And it is slightly disappointing inside. Yes, the pavilion is now because it's very much not as it was envisioned

or indeed as it was originally delivered. So, you know, the Pickford's trucks were whatever the 19th century equivalent

of the Pickford's trucks would have been. They were all parked outside. Queen Victoria had issued very, very strict instructions to get everything

clear the place out. I don't want to hand over anything that I haven't paid for. She'd done her due diligence

She'd read the terms and conditions. Brighton Council possibly hadn't. And an awful lot of that, and I hope I'm using the word correctly

an awful lot of that chinoiserie is in that particular corridor, in that particular hallway

And if the BBC have got any nuggets of insight like that today

then I'll give you the money myself. And, of course, as Starmer arrives at Buckingham Palace

all of this will unfold away from the cameras and away from the prying eyes of the world's media

and the country's media, standing by for the next stage in this story

which will involve Andy Burnham making his way to Buckingham Palace and then returning to Downing Street to deliver his speech

Is there any truth in this rumour that he's going to eschew the lectern

Have you heard this? I have heard it. Did I hear it from you originally? I don't think so

But I've also heard it. And it would be interesting. I mean, actually, vibes matter

Style matters. And if he's going to stand there more informally dressed without a lectern, it'll just look and feel a bit different, which is what he wants

And if we are a nation addicted to change, and the first hour of the programme today sort of works on the presumption that that was a bad thing

But if Andy Burnham comes in absolutely committed to very real, deep and lasting change, covering everything from the way he governs and the way he looks when he governs, then, well, I know you're an eternal optimist

I'm a little bit too given to hope as well, as opposed to despair. But it is perhaps time for a short period of

Well, we should reflect on the fact that almost all of our colleagues, not almost all, but a huge number of our colleagues have written him off as a total dud and a failure before he's even got his feet underneath the desk

I think, you know, the country is angry, has been angry for some time and is desperate for real change

Reform offer one kind of really big change. And I think for the first time, Andy Burnham sounds like he's offering a rival kind of change

I like that. Fingers crossed. It is coming up to half past 11

Andrew, you're now off to Downing Street. I'm off to Downing Street. To count another one in

Absolutely. To count another one in. Let's hope it's a while before you're doing it again

My boy reporter's notebook in my hand. Model 2 as all. The time is approaching half past 11

You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC on this portentous day

even if they are coming along rather more regularly than they used to. They remain significant and portentous

and remain with us both on the radio and of course InVision on YouTube Global Player and the LBC app as we continue for ones not to paint pictures on the radio using our vocabularies and imaginations but

in fact to accompany the words that I share with you with glorious technicolour. It's

half past eleven and Dominic Ellis has your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC

Five minutes to twelve is the time you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC, where we can't obviously

follow the events within the walls of Buckingham Palace, but technically at some point in the next few minutes

if it hasn't already happened, the king will accept Keir Starmer's resignation

and await Andy Burnham's arrival, where he will bestow his permission to

these are ceremonial and constitutional moments, of course, and Andy Burnham will announce his intention

to form a government and receive the royal blessing I don't actually know. This is when you need to have a kind of historian in the studio with you

What happens in the interregnum, as it were, in the event of something desperately important happening

in those minutes between the resignation being accepted and the new person being installed

what would actually happen if, anyway, hopefully we won't find out today

25 to 12 is the time. The question we've been wrestling with before we were interrupted by events was, of course, the why of it, as ever on this programme

Why are we in a place where changing the prime minister has become commonplace

It's no exaggeration to say so. Five people in four years is extraordinary

And anything extraordinary merits examination. And here are some of the answers we've got already

I opened with an addiction to flux, and that might be a journalistic perspective, actually, because, as I've been saying pretty much every day since 2016, it's very good for business, not so good for the soul

Lots to report, lots of speculation, lots of runners and riders. But, of course, it didn't used to be like that when it was as rare as hen's teeth to suggest that prime minister's days were numbered by anything other than a general election

Journalists found other things to write about. Those days are behind us, hopefully

Not forever. The constant opinion polling, I think, feeds into precisely that phenomenon

This idea that it is interesting how people would vote in a general election that is not going to happen for another five years

Just don't ask me why it's interesting. Focus upon my fascinating ysis of what those findings have told us

But so what? It doesn't happen in any other line of work. Not really

The bent media, of course, the way in which Boris Johnson and especially Liz Truss can preside over utterly, utterly rotten administrations and still be cheered to the rafters by the likes of the Daily Mail and the Daily Telegraph and the Daily Express and the Times and all of their Sunday equivalents

That creates an atmosphere where Keir Starmer had very little chance of delivering, but also where things have to become unconscionably awful before the Conservative Party gets its house in order and actually gets rid of a lame duck leader, as they've managed to do in Johnson and Truss's case

and to a lesser extent, of course, Theresa May. You've got the legacy of Brexit

Of course you have. The fact that we have become a country where people have been persuaded

that they can vote according to their vibes and their feelings and in direct contradiction of the experts and the facts

and somehow still be valid and important and possessed of legitimate concerns

The legacy of that will continue until Brexit is undone, I fear

And from Brexit to quick fixes, the idea that you actually can fix things really quickly

Therefore, if the last person hasn't fixed it quickly enough, then we'll try another person now

And that brings us back to change as an end in itself rather than a simple means to an end

You want change? The first question you should be asked is why and what

Whereas, of course, again, echoes of Brexit, the number of people that told us they just had enough

They wanted someone. And it's happening now, of course, with Farage's outfit

We've just had enough. It's time someone else had a go. The two party system, this, the two party system, that

Let's give somebody else a go because change is as good as a rest

except, of course, if you don't know what that change is going to entail or what that change is designed to do or what that change is driven by

or, indeed, who that change is being paid for by, you are unlikely to come out of it better than you went in

11.39. Joe's in Enfield in North London. Joe, what made you pick up the phone

Hi there, James. I called in. I've never called into a radio show before

Congratulations. This is it, mate. The rest of your life now is going to be a marked improvement

on everything to this point. Yeah, I saw that, you know, there was the sort of changing of hands

and tuned in, and I've heard a few things that you've said before, and I've liked a lot of what you've said

but I found myself sort of ranting and raving a bit of the radio today

I think when you spoke to Michelle a little earlier, I think she did a really good job

and is probably a far more reasonable person than I am. But I think a lot of the reasons I've heard are somewhat trivializing the issues that working people are facing

The idea that people are impatient or spoiled or have an addiction to quick fixes or an addiction to fluxes

You know, they want everything and they want it now. I think all of these things really undermine the pressure that working people are facing

I agree that I do agree that people want quick fixes, but that's not because of Amazon Prime delivery or because they have social media brain

It's because, you know, people can't breathe, James. People can't feed their kids or afford to have kids

They can't pay their mortgages. People can't pay their rent. People are worried about their pensions

You know, the idea that we just need to be more patient, just wait. You know, trickle down economics will work

No one has said, I can't fault your ysis up until that point

No one on this programme has extolled the benefits of trickle-down economics

not least because it's a completely bogus narrative that should, and of course would in an honest society, be a completely busted flush

But you speak for a specific section of society that are, I suppose

traditionally Labour supporting, people who are vulnerable, particularly vulnerable to the economic situation

situation and particularly keen, therefore, to see improvements. That's not going to explain everybody, is it

And the flux addiction, of course, was more about the media than it was about the voters

Sure. I mean, I think it does speak to, you know, a large, a huge part of the population

You know, there are loads of people in this country who, you know, don't own their own house

And I think that a lot of people are looking for, you know, a solution to this problem, among others

Do you think, I mean, Andrew's ysis, as ever, was fascinating, and it'll bubble away in my brain for the rest of this program and beyond

And he touched on two things that speak directly to what you're saying. The first was the really big picture

The fact that we are actually no longer a country or an economy that can deliver for the population some of the things that you described

Now you know whether he right or wrong I don think any prime minister is going to come out and say you better get used to being poor You better get used to not being able to afford all the things that you think you should be able to afford

They're all going to come in and promise to improve the situation. George has been in touch while you were speaking to say, literally everyone I know is struggling

So, I mean, that's on the board as a major driver of what we're talking about

But it leads to the idea that a quick fix is possible

And that change is desirable before, arguably, the person currently imposed has had the chance to try to fix the problems that you describe

So I think we can both be right here. The problems are very, very deep, much deeper than Amazon Prime deliveries or social media addiction

But equally, this addiction to or this belief that things can be turned around really, really quickly makes everything worse, not better

I don't know. It's something where, you know, a lot of the things that I think both the left and the right of the political spectrum want is that they're looking for, you know, whether you're on the left and you're thinking, you know, I want a radical change to the tax system where we tax, you know, billionaires and private companies much higher than we do currently, like we used to do in the past

You know, if that were to happen, then, you know, I'd have more money in my pocket and I'd be able to afford a house

And on the right, it's the case of, you know, if we didn't have, you know, so many immigrants in this country and we weren't so overpopulated, then, you know, the market, the housing price will fall

You know, there'll be less demand for housing and I'll be able to afford a house. So it's like the reason that I think the reason that we're becoming increasingly more divided and increasingly looking towards having quick fixes is precisely for this reason

People are really struggling and they've seen what they've seen what, you know, the past conservative government did, you know, and, you know, all the way back to Thatcher, really

And the people are sort of like, you know, conditions have sort of gotten gradually worse for a very long time

And so people aren't willing to be patient anymore, and they want to go back to whether it's a country that was more sort of British white working class that wants to have less of an overpopulation, or they want to go back to a tax system that meant that people could buy a house on a single income

It's something where these things existed before. But neither of those things are going to happen

Neither of those things can happen. Why do you think neither of those things can happen? A single income household being able to sustain, I mean, if that were to happen

then the house you'd be able to afford would be going down in value every year, not up

Yeah, but I don't know if that's necessarily a bad thing, is it

If you owned one, it would be. I appreciate you don't, and that's a massive driver of your politics

But, I mean, economic growth is contingent upon assets appreciating in value rather than depreciating

If everything that we own starts going down in value, then the sort of happiness on the horizon that you rather powerfully portray is not going to last very long

I mean, you're familiar. I don't want to sound patronizing. You're familiar with the concept of negative equity

It's one of the single most terrifying things that the property owning class is, whether they've just bought their own council house or whether they own half of Hampshire can contemplate

Final question. Is it feasible, though, this? I mean, the wealth tax is a very nuanced conversation

I think it's probably fair to say that the examples of where it has worked elsewhere are incredibly thin on the ground

but that doesn't stop it being a very attractive shorthand for a redistribution of wealth

Your calculation would be that if they raised a significant sum of money by taxing wealth

then your taxes would come down and you'd be left with more money in your pocket to save for a deposit and to get onto the property ladder

I mean, I'm not sure the numbers support that position, but let's say that they did

How long would it take for a government to put in place policies that would measurably and substantively allow you to buy a house

Because I can see why reducing energy bills or reducing the cost of living would help, but not to a point where you can go from being out of the game entirely to be sitting in an estate agent's office this time next week

I think that you have asked the question why we've seen so many changes in prime ministers

And I think you've sort of answered your own question. We didn't replace Boris Johnson with Liz Truss because of people who can't afford houses

and we didn't replace Liz Trust with Rishi Sunak because of people who can't afford houses

No, I think they were all replaced because they couldn't address the economic issues

that were... Which brings us back to Brexit. Which brings us back to Brexit. Sure

That is definitely a contributing factor. But it's like, if we can't sort of fix

the sort of fundamental issues... You can't. Nobody can know. This is where Femi was so powerful earlier

You cannot authentically and sincerely claim to be committed to economic improvement

economic growth, redistribution of wealth while still generating wealth. That's why I think the point about negative equity is important

While completely ignoring by far the biggest drain upon our economic health that this country

will hopefully ever see and certainly short of war has ever seen

But yeah, I mean, obviously, there is something a little bit arranging the deck chairs on

the Titanic about talking about why people are buying into the idea that a change of personnel

in Downing Street on an almost annual basis is not undesirable. But I don't know that you are necessarily challenging the overall conclusion as powerfully

as you think, because people, whatever it is that drives their desire for change, their

need for change, they're not going to get it if they change the person in charge five

times in four years. So why do they carry on and keep doing it remains, I think, a very pertinent question

Joe, thank you. I hope that's not the last time that you ring into a radio show, albeit that it is the first

Sir Keir Starmer has now formally resigned as Prime Minister after a meeting with the King at Buckingham Palace

The King has accepted his resignation and will now presumably be having a pot of Earl Grey before Andy Burnham arrives to essentially establish his intent to form a government

The time now is 11.48. James O'Brien on LBC. So you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

Joan Enfield a moment ago touching quite a lot of thought processes

with that observation about house prices. I mean, look, it probably would be for the good of the nation

certainly for the younger generations, for house prices to come down. But you're never going to be able to sell that as a policy as a prime minister

or as a wannabe prime minister to a population that is, if not property owning, then aspiring to be so

It is actually what did for Liz Truss in a way, wasn't it? I think the point at which people could see their own mortgages rising exponentially

was the point at which the political became personal and her sandwiches were being wrapped in a road map

I think, just to... Clarify on that constitutional observation I made a moment ago

I think David Lammy is currently in charge of the country because of this curious period after which Keir Starmer, after Keir Starmer's resignation has been accepted

and before Andy Burnham's position as Prime Minister has been confirmed by the King

the role falls to the Deputy Prime Minister, to David Lammy. So, you know, he could be out of a job entirely

or at least out of the Cabinet entirely by tea time today, but for the time being, he is in charge

Kate's in Kingston. Kate, what would you like to say? James, thanks for taking my call

You're very welcome, Kate. I'd like to try and put some context into this, if I may

and a bit of an ogy, and you can talk me down or hang up, I don't mind

I certainly won't hang up. I hope not. Think of Brexit as getting the menu back

So we got the menu back when Brexit, so people are fed up with having the other menu

So we got the menu back, and it is nearly lunchtime, everyone's hungry. And then, you know, we choose the menu

and we get persuaded that that's going to be the food and we buy it, we buy into it, we vote for it

and it's not delivered and it's horrible. So then we think, well, I'm going to go to another restaurant

and I'm going to buy another meal, etc. Now, there's a serious point I'm making here

which is, do you know about Korbinski and the biscuits? Go on. Okay, Korbinski was a Polish philosopher

and he did the whole thing about semantics, about words. Now, the map is not the territory and the menu is not the meal

So one day he's giving a lecture to his students, and they're all sitting there, and he's getting on for lunchtime rather like now

and he had a packet of biscuits. And he said, well, I'm really hungry. Excuse me, I must eat a biscuit

So he had a biscuit. And then he said to the front row, would you like a biscuit? And they all had a biscuit. And then five minutes later, he held up the front of the packet

and it said dog biscuits. And half of them were sick, and they all rushed to the toilet

The point is that words, the delivery of words, Andy Burnham is so clever

because he can use words. His literature degree has helped him. So he can convince people that there's something on the horizon

Can you hear me all right? Yes, loud and clear. As you know, I can't win, Kate. If I interrupt, I get told off

If I don't interrupt, everyone thinks I've died. The phone is beeping, sorry

Carry on. So I'd love to know what his specialist subject was

Can you find out for me his English literature dissertation? I'd love to know what it was. Am I Google now

Flippin' egg. Look it up yourself. I can't find it on Google. Oh, can you not? No, no

But the thing is about Sir Keir Starmer was very careful with his words

Yes. Rather, you know. Well, loyally, actually. Fish, chips, peas, mushy peas

And they're boring. But actually, if you actually got them, they would probably be very good. But the thing is that this persuasion of people and the gap between the stimulus and the response is shorter and shorter

So we've now got a menu where Burnham's very cleverly saying, let's go back to the 70s, which was at least more wholesome

You know, you had your Bieber clothes and everything. But you tended to brew your beer in a bad dustbin

and grow a few things in the back garden. And it was a more wholesome time before that

So he's selling something more easily seeable, for want of a better word

than what Kirsten. Kirstenmer never really sold anything. No, because his father was a toolmaker

Apparently so. Well, the little I know about toolmaking, because we make things here at home

And when you order cutters, yeah, we do, when you order cutters, they're incredibly expensive

If you order things that are set millimeter, like above a millimeter, it's okay

But if you're going to get something made for you, bespoke, to buy your cutter to make your thing

that then makes something else, in fact, it gets very expensive. So we get back to money

And I thought the discussion about the economics was very, very good this morning

and Joe, I do really sympathise with Joe and the thing is that people

first of all they need food on the table they need some sort of heating, they need to keep themselves clean

and they need to sort of have a mental Is this the biggest disconnect of all between

Westminster if you like and most people because I think that I know we often laugh at the Daily Telegraph articles

about how hard it is to get by on £100,000 a year and that sort of thing

But it's Mr. McCorber territory. If your outgoings are outstripping your incomings, then it doesn't matter how big your incomings are

You are going to be feeling the pinch. And if a large part of that is, of course, property prices or mortgage payments, then it's kind of non-negotiable unless you rack up the other enormous expense of moving house

So making people feel that the pound in their pocket will go a little bit further or, I mean, to take Joe's point further, a lot further than it currently does is the top priority of any incoming prime minister

But arguably the impossibility of doing so in the current climate and with Brexit still largely unaddressed and entirely undone, the impossibility of doing so explains why people give them 10 minutes, conclude that they haven't delivered and then spin the wheel once again

I think, Kate, I hope I kept up with all of your ogies there. I'm a massive fan of ogies, but I think by the time you got to brewing beer in a bucket, I was struggling

I must be honest. In fact, you could probably see me struggling if you are following this broadcast on InVision, as the grown-ups say

We are broadcasting from Westminster today and streaming live on YouTube, the LBC app and Global Player

Language is really important. And Kate actually, I think, has given the grounds for the next question that we'll ask, which is, what does Andy Burnham have that Keir Starmer doesn't

03456060973. So I'm not necessarily going to remove entirely from our contemplation the question of what it means or how we've ended up in a situation where these changes are being undergone at a close to unprecedented level

But I've been struck by two or three things this morning beyond that question, partly as a consequence of Andrew Marr's expert ysis just starting an hour or so ago

The first is, I love the word palpable. It's one of my favourite words. It's a great word, right? Palpable. We love palpable

The very palpable sense of relief as Keir Starmer quit the field

And I'd go a little bit further and say that as him and Victoria, his wife, made their way up the former thoroughfare of Downing Street, the famous former thoroughfare, they had an air of people who were arriving

It was almost a celebratory air. So what's Burnham got that Starmer hasn't

James O'Brien on LBC. It's three minutes after 12. Shall I wade straight into the question that will concern us for much but not all of the next hour

Because, of course, we are keeping on BDI upon events at Buckingham Palace and latterly at Downing Street

Or shall I annoy you first? What would you rather I did? Because one of the things about change, it sits alongside another phenomenon that I think has got much bigger and possibly worse

but certainly much more commonplace in UK politics in recent years. And as Andy Burnham makes his way to Buckingham Palace I tell you what that is So it like a reaction to the addiction to change because the addiction to change doesn fit everybody

I don't think I've got it. I would probably have rather stayed stuck

where I would give someone a decent chance to have a go

even as I found myself deeply disillusioned with Keir Starmer for many of the reasons that Andrew Marr touched upon

the fact that he just, A, didn't seem to be very interested in doing politics

and therefore was not very good at it. And B, just a sense that's become really clear since he decided that the game was up

that he can't really wait to get out of there. But half the population, or 52% of the population, is addicted to change

Oh, Andy Burnham now, just arriving at Buckingham Palace with his wife

fully suited and booted, as you would expect. I think it would have been pushing his luck somewhat

to go in full Volodymyr Zelensky tribute act, which is the sartorial choice that Andy Burnham normally favours

making his way over the famous gravel. There you go, right that one, Dan Keith

The famous gravel into Downing Street, where he will shortly be with the King

A couple of carefully selected photographers, one presumably from the Press Association

also going in, so we will see some stills. I don't think we ever see moving pictures

from those moments and a couple of royal footmen. What's the female equivalent of a footman, Keith

Is it a footwoman? Two royal footpersons making their way into Downing Street as well

Crowds gathered. Of course, some tourists would have booked these holidays months, if not years ago

So they get a sort of added bonus from the tourist point of view

of seeing the new Prime Minister making his way into Buckingham Palace

and it is within that building that he will now be meeting King Charles

and seeking permission, I think that's how it works, I think that's the correct nomenclature

seeking permission to former government, the details and indeed the constituents of which we will discover later today

That's nice from Mike, I should have used that. The royal and august gravel, you could hear crunching underfoot

Crunching underfoot. So 52% of us have become addicted to change. 52% of us have become somewhat addicted to flux

including pretty much all of the media, because it gives us so much to talk and write about

I wondered, looking at some of the very emotional unhappiness, I suppose unhappiness is always emotional

looking at some of the very deep unhappiness about Keir Starmer's defenestration

I wondered whether 48% of us have actually become addicted to sticking

It's a sort of form of footballification, which, of course, is not just party political

It's not just about the scarf that you've got tied around your neck being tied so tightly that it's cut off the flow of blood to your head

It can happen within a political party as well. So some people, I think it's exhausting keeping up with the flux and the change

So if you've decided that you're going to back Keir Starmer to the hilt

regardless of what goes on and regardless of what happens, then I kind of have some sympathy for you

How much of it is a consequence of Keir Starmer's actual abilities and performance

and how much of it is a consequence of being so exhausted by the addiction to flux and change that everybody else is part of

But it's too late for that conversation now. We've got the change that many wanted

including almost all of the parliamentary Labour Party. And what is that change going to look like

The first way to answer that question would be to look at what Andy Burnham has that Keir Starmer doesn't

Kate in Kingston, making a very powerful case for the ability to paint pictures and to tell stories, his use of words, much more lyrical, much more poetic than Keir Starmer's

And whether or not you think these things should matter or not doesn't really register

It matters. And what else does he have that Keir Starmer doesn't have

I'm taking Andrew Ma's point about the relish, the clear relish for the job

Did you, even when Keir Starmer was giving his speech, his welcoming speech outside Downing

Street, did you have a very, very strong sense that he couldn't wait to get started and that

he was desperate to get stuck in and that he would relish every aspect of the job

I'm in danger of suffering from 2020 hindsight here. But I don't think he had the same air of enthusiasm that Andy Burnham appears to have

How long it lasts, only time will tell. But he's really, really, really up for this and he can't wait to get stuck in

So what else are we going to put on the list? What does Andy Burnham have that Keir Starmer didn't have or doesn't have

The number you need is 03456060973. And listen, it can be a negative as well as a positive

I don't want people mourning the passing of Keir Starmer and convinced that he was a man more sinned against than sinning to feel excluded from this conversation

You're probably bruised enough as it is by the sort of celebratory air that's accompanying Andy Burnham's passage to power

If you're still ruining the day that Keir Starmer felt his position had become untenable, then tell me what he's got as a positive that you don't think Andy Burnham has as a negative

What is it that we are going to see? different. And obviously, Sophie, long eyelashes may be anatomically correct

but I'm looking for something a little deeper and more substantive than that

What does Andy, because we're all celebrating change or we're all reporting change

we're all chronicling change, whether you're celebrating it or not. What does Andy Burnham have as a man

Because it's too early, really, to start unpicking conflicting policy platforms or anything like that

But what does Andy Burnham have as he meets with King Charles III in preparation for forming his government later today that Keir Starmer does not have

Why are you excited by this moment? What is it that you think we're going to see moving forward that we haven't seen over the course of the last two and a bit years

Hit the numbers now. You will get through. 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need

That's the question I want to ask next. What is it that Andy Burnham is bringing to the party that Keir Starmer, in your view, did not possess

And, of course, you can also throw in a little bit on whether or not Keir Starmer will prove to be a prime minister more sinned against than sinning

For the record, I don't think so. I wobbled horribly. I think it's that 52-48

See, 52% addicted to change, 48% addicted to the opposite or desperate for the opposite

Everybody else constantly changing the guard. My instincts say, well, just years. Let's measure a premiership in years, not in months

But I fear that Keir Starmer's position became untenable as a consequence of poor performance, of the lack of delivery that has been very well chronicled

So what is Andy Burnham bringing to the party as a person as a human being that Keir Starmer signally in your view lacked Or what are we saying goodbye to regretfully as Keir Starmer quits the scene that Andy Burnham is not going to be able to provide or deliver Norman is in Epsom Norman

what have you got? Yeah, so what I've got, James, is that Andy Burnham's a retailer

So I could imagine Andy Burnham being my corner, you know, my high street butcher

Yeah. Or he could be a pub landlord. Are we talking about a common touch? Is that too glib

He's got that common touch that people can recognise in Andy Burnham

Oh, he's the guy that's got the butcher shop or the, you know, he runs the pub

You know, he's got that. Whereas Starmer, nobody could quite pin him down as to he wasn't a tough like Cameron and Johnson

No, very much not. He wasn't an English woman of the shires like Theresa May

Liz Truss is an aberration. In so many ways. And soon that was a tech bro

You know, those are recognizable characters. Do we need that? Do we need a categorization to make sense of things

I think we probably do. I think we do. And I think Burnham fits a character that we haven't seen in leadership in the UK probably ever

Maybe Harold Wilson? Wilson, well, Wilson played up being a common person, but he was an academic professor

No, very good point. So Wilson doesn't work, clamping his pipe into his mouth

the minute the cameras started rolling. Yeah, so he's a top economy. But he knew what the people wanted, and he could sell it to them

sell it back to them, where Starmer couldn't quite figure out. He was almost stuck in a 1940s or 50s black-and-white movie

Yes, and again, I'm going to say this once more. I feel sorry for the guy

Well, yeah, I was going to say, I mean, you can believe quite passionately that this shouldn't matter, that this is all optics and surface, not substance

But it matters. It does matter whether you like it or not. This really matters

It does matter. That connection, that instant first impressions matter. And the first impression of Starmer wasn't good. It never got any better

first impression of Burnham. Now, he's had other impressions, because obviously it goes back in politics a long way

That's true. But he went to Manchester and reimagined himself back as a Mancunian

probably selling sausages on a high street somewhere in Makerfield or... Just as a son of his community

I mean, Andrew touched on this, And I think I had a similar conversation with Andy Burnham a few years ago about how imposter syndrome defined him, really, when he moved to London, worked in the trade press, actually, in Brentford, of all places where I currently live and and always had political ambitions, but possibly lost sight of why lost sight of why he had political ambitions and, of course, who he was

And the big question is whether or not his experiences as a consequence of Hillsborough and of being mayor of Manchester have changed him properly and profoundly

I think I've got it, James. Go on. He went to Cambridge and tried to be someone else

I think I've got that bit of the interview, actually. We'll play it out. OK, sorry. I haven't heard the interview

No, no. I mean, no reason you should have done it. It went out on full disclosure a while ago. So we'll play it out in a moment because I'm keeping one eye at this moment on the Downing Street door where Andy Burnham and Mary France, his wife, Mary France Van Heel, are expected to emerge any second now, at which point he is officially

He is officially prime minister. I think we might run the risk, actually

Should we take a quick break on the proviso that he ain't going to appear

Of course, the world's, including our cameras, are focused on that doorway

So the minute that I signal to Keith that we're taking a break, Andy Burnham and his wife will probably appear

James O'Brien on LBC. 16 is the time. I think what we'll do is we will wait until Andy Burnham emerges from Buckingham Palace, which means there's still time for you to tell me what you think he has that Keir Starmer does not, whether good or bad

And then we'll have a little listen to certainly one clip where he spoke to me a few years ago about his parents encouraging him to go to Cambridge and the imposter syndrome that he suffered from

Subsequently, a syndrome that Andrew Marr persuaded us earlier has gone. He knows who he is now and he knows what he wants

And that is as a consequence both of securing the Hillsborough Bill that was enshrined in law last week and, of course, as his tenure as mayor of Manchester

He has or he is arriving in Downing Street with a fairly long to do list

And some of it has been fleshed out regardless of what Stuart Rose said a minute ago

When are we going to stop listening to Stuart Rose? I wonder the bloke that was supposedly leading the remain campaign and disappeared from the field almost as completely as Jeremy Corbyn did

But hey, on we go. Quite a lot of of plans and intentions and putative policies laid out already rather more than you'd expect from somebody who only got the final nod a couple of weeks ago

But we'll find out more about that, of course, in the course of today and in the coming weeks

But I'm interested at first glance in what it looks like and sounds like and what Andy Burnham has that Keir Starmer does not

I think we can probably risk that clip, actually. I don't think he's going to come

And they'll be there for 20 minutes, half an hour, won't they? I mean, they have to have a proper chat, get to know each other, show him the chinoiserie

If you're wondering what the chinoiserie is and why there is so much of it in Buckingham Palace

don't forget you can rewind this live broadcast on Global Player. and on the LBC app

So here he is, and I'll pull out of this if he comes out of Downing Street and maybe go back to it later

Here he is talking to me about that imposter syndrome, which many people who know him better than I do

feel is A, a large part of his story, and B, something that has actually now been dealt with

Tell me about when the teacher said to you, you should be aiming for Cambridge, Burnham

I mean, it came via a parents' night at first. my mum and dad came home for a parents' night

And they said that Mr. Harrington, the English teacher, had mentioned Cambridge

and he wanted to talk to me about it. And I just said, no, no, no, no, that wouldn't be me

And that's when my dad started, oh, God, it will open all these doors. Why? Why wouldn't it be you

Just because it was like Brideshead revisited. Yeah, but my impressions of it were just

I thought, well, I won't fit in there. And I was kind of right, to be honest with you, because I really struggled my first year

I was, you know, I've had that imposter syndrome all my life to some degree or other

And, you know, I had it massively in my first year at Cambridge. I was waiting for the, listen, we have made a mistake and we don't want you to feel, you know, here's the door

Even with your A-level results in your back pocket and all that sort of thing. Yes it was just you know the way I always describe it was I just was exposed to sort of a kind of an environment that I you know nothing in my school had prepared me for it Everything in my school would have prepared me for that So I find this fascinating because our backgrounds aren that different up until the point that I went to private school

You know, my dad was on a Yorkshire regional newspaper when he was 15

So but that that's why parents do it to give you that false confidence and I think you clocked

Not if not false you clock that it was actually clothes that people put on this confidence

It's not something that's innate or something that you're born with. Well, it took me two years to work that out

You know, I say that when I first arrived in Cambridge, I'd never seen confidence

Were you frightened? I mean, it was intimidating for certain. And, you know, in the world I was in

you wouldn't have dreamt of said, I want to go to Cambridge. I want to be a member of parliament because you just..

You'd get a slap. I mean, you know, you just... you wouldn't have ever spoken of your ambition

Whereas all of a sudden I was... would speak in the most confident way

It took me a good two years to work out they were talking complete rubbish

but it sounded so good. Yes. It sounded... And they would not think twice about telling you

that they fully intended to be Prime Minister one day. Exactly. And that was quite hard to kind of come to terms with that

But I do think it's... I would always come back to that interview process

That's the thing that, you know, how can you go, even now from a state school

into that interview process? I was offered a glass of sherry, for God's sake

at St. Catherine's College. I failed that interview. No bloody wonder. I was in a kind of wood-panelled, book-lined room

being offered a glass of sherry. And the first question of the interview was

I can remember it now, the tutor or director of study said

to what extent do you think the Canterbury Tales is like a modern day package holiday

And I just sat there with this sherry man and looked at him. I'm not sure I spoke for..

I always say I was still pondering the question when the rejection letter landed on the door

There was nothing in my life to that point that had prepared me for that experience

Nothing. Not one thing. And so I just... When I got called back for a pool interview

at Fitzwilliam College, which was a more... had more of a tradition of state school intake

I was a bit, you know, I've got a bit of a sort of a street by side

that I kind of had, right, if that's the game, I'm coming back a bit better this time

Hard not to like him there, isn't it? That's an interview from 2022 on Full Disclosure

which you can find and indeed watch. I think it's all in vision. You can watch that on the archive

If it isn't, it probably will be by closer play today. Particularly interesting, I could be imagining this

Because, of course, I've not watched it before. I'm watching the clip in the studio at the moment in the same time that you are

But when I mentioned Prime Minister, there was, I think there was a little, going back four years, it was already being talked about one day

Obviously, it would have been later rather than sooner. But I think he had the air of a man on that particular question who had not actually ruled out the possibility or the prospect of becoming Prime Minister one day

So that was him talking about who he is, actually. And I think, because we're asking the question about why Andy Burnham has that Keir Starmer doesn't, I think one of the reasons why Keir Starmer felt compelled to repeatedly tell us that his father was a toolmaker and no reason why he shouldn't

It's an extraordinary journey, a very, very British success story, the Starmer family story

But he needed to because, as Norman and Epson pointed out, it was kind of hard to pinpoint where he's from socially

It was kind of hard to categorize him or, if you prefer, pigeonhole him

And Andy Burnham is a much easier. This is why Norman was talking about being a butcher or being a retailer

Everybody knows somebody like him. Everybody knows somebody like him, whereas I don't think many of us know anybody quite like Keir Starmer, for good or for ill

As I say, I'm just sticking it down on paper today, not necessarily sitting in judgment

And although I am currently a lot more excited about the prospect of an Andy Burnham premiership than I ever was about a Keir Starmer's, that question there, that will be tomorrow's phone in from 10 o'clock

To what extent do you think the Canterbury Tales is like a modern day package holiday

I'll be taking your calls on that from 10 o'clock tomorrow. 0-3-4-5-6-0-6-0-9-7-3

But for now, I'm asking what Andy Burnham has, what we think Andy Burnham has

that Geoffrey Chut, sorry, that Keir Starmer doesn't. Nathaniel is in Dover. Nathaniel, what would you like to say

Hello, James. I think you've got a new book out of what's going on at the moment

I'll tell you who wishes you were right, mate. That's my publisher. He's emailed me already this morning

I'm trying to, I'm hiding from him at the moment. Go on, why do you think that? Because you said about the flux and what's going on

the more turmoil, the more you've got to write about why Britain is so broken

Well, good for business, mate, but bad for the soul. I don't want to live in a country where we're changing prime minister every 10 minutes

And I actually don't want to live in a country where there's so much to talk. I'll tell you what, I've already got the crown

This is the most listened to speech program in the history of British commercial radio

I'll let someone else have a go. I'll give up quarter of a million listeners if we can have a period of prosperity and stability

There you go. I agree. I agree. There is a couple of things which I think we are going to miss from Keir Starmer

Yes. And I didn't think I'd be ever saying this. Right. On the international stage, he is a different creature to someone stood at number 10 or at Prime Minister's questions

He had that fortitude about him when talking about Ukraine, when dealing with NATO, or to a degree, America, but not so much

It sort of felt like he was trying to do too much to please Trump a little bit

But on the international stage, I think actually he would make a fantastic diplomat

He absolutely would. What we're not going to miss is the abhorrent communication

I've never known Number 10 to be so poor at communicating about the good things they were doing

I really could never put my finger on it. It didn't make sense to me that they were just not shouting from the rooftops about the good that they were trying to do

Indeed, in the context of communications, Nathaniel, as you speak, Andy Burnham has been appointed Prime Minister

The Palace has issued the statement. His Majesty received in audience the Right Honourable Andrew Burnham MP and requested him to form a new administration

The Right Honourable Andrew Burnham MP accepted the King's offer and kissed hands, it says here

upon his appointment as Prime Minister and First Lord of the Treasury

Ms Marie-France Van Heel was also received by His Majesty. And I think, I don't know if you listened to Andrew Marr earlier, but as ever, he was incredibly insightful

And part of the problem there would be Keir Starmer not relishing or enjoying politics itself

Because if you're not enjoying the game, you're unlikely to do many laps of honour when you score a goal

And that's the communications failure, is that even the good stuff didn't get sold as enthusiastically and as tirelessly as it should have been

And I think you enjoy, if you enjoy your job, you do it five times better

You always do. Tell me about it. I think one thing that Angie Burnham has got

which isn't Keir Starmer's fault, it's just the situation. Keir Starmer is very

London orientated, and I think there was a difficulty to truly grasp what was going on outside of the M25. Yeah

And where Andy Burnham, like you had in that clip, he's gone and remade himself

He's gone up to Manchester, where before he was a bit London-centric under the Blair years

I think he's gone away, and he's remoulded himself to actually understand what's going on, where there isn't all the London money, so to speak

Which is grossly unfair. I mean, we touched on it there. I think Andy Burnham's upbringing was in many ways

more comfortable than Keir Starmer's, actually. But it doesn't matter, does it

We're not here to count or do the maths. We're here to talk about how these two men make us feel

And Andy Burnham makes us feel currently very different from how Keir Starmer does

And I feel hopelessly optimistic, and I've not felt this way... Hopelessly optimistic as a title. Crikey

I've not felt this way since probably the end of the 2000s

when I was coming out of secondary school and I found a credit crunch. That was the last time I had some sort of hopeless optimism

until the credit crunch happened. So I'm just hoping that it's not misplaced

and I'm actually hoping that I can garner a future for my kids. I mean, the last time we had a politics

I mean, I suppose we've had a populist, haven't we, with Boris Johnson. But in terms of..

And then we had a TOF with David Cameron. We had an opportunist with Boris Johnson

We had an aberration with Liz Truss. We had a technocrat with Rishi Sunak

And we had, I mean, I don't know quite what word I'd use at this point to describe Keir Starmer

I think I can describe it. I've been thinking about this. I can describe it

So, you know, with Rishi Sunak, we had that sort of populist post-COVID nonsense going on post-Brexit

And then Keir Starmer went the complete opposite and went technocrat. With Andy Burnham, I think there's a chance to have a recalibration of a political sphere

And I think there's a chance to recalibrate this because he isn't populist

He isn't far left. He isn't like conservatives. I actually think he brings a middle ground

What Kiyosama missed Kiyosama went too far formal to managerial instead of going, actually, you know what

I'm not going to be populist post covid Boris Brexit wave nonsense

all we had to do was dial it from 15 on the dial down to about 7. That's beautifully put

And I think Andy Burnham does that. Well, I don't think Starmer had any choice

I don't think Starmer could have done different. It would have been like asking him to suddenly start speaking Mandarin

It was just not a language that he spoke, whereas Andy Burnham is not faking it

In some ways, a couple of the callers this hour put me in mind that Andy Burnham is exactly what Nigel Farage pretends to be

He's somebody who is in touch with the reality and the concerns of ordinary people

I don't think we're going to be finding out any time soon that Andy Burnham has taken a secret five million quid from a foreign-based billionaire

whose business interests are then miraculously served by announcements made by said politician

And similarly, I mean, this is where we go back to communications. I don't think we're going to find out any time soon that he's taken some freebies or

some gifts from members of the House of Lords, albeit that they're Labour members of the

House of Lords. There's quite a few things that he has to do differently. but the first thing that he has done

and will continue to do is just be different and you've touched

on quite a lot of the ways in which he is already achieving that. Nathaniel

great stuff, thank you. As far as I can tell Andy Burnham is still in Buckingham Palace

perhaps he stayed for lunch. It's 12.31 Amelia Cox has your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC

It's 12.34 you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC if you're just joining us we are

broadcasting from Westminster today as you'd expect and live streaming, which means you can

see me on YouTube, the LBC app and global player, Andy Burnham, the

Prime Minister, as he is now, is still in Buckingham Palace with the King and

indeed with his wife, Marie-France Van Heel. You can see if you are interested in these things, cameras

currently focused upon the doorway from which Andy Burnham and his wife are expected to emerge sooner

rather than later. It's then a sort of hop, skipping a jump back to Downing Street, where they'll go in the back way and then make their way

and then Burnham will make his way through the building, his new home, of course, and deliver a speech from the street itself, a speech which everybody who does this for a living

is expecting not to involve a lectern, make of that what you will

Optics matter. As our last caller reminded us, communication skills were widely perceived

as one of the big failings of Keir Starmer's premiership, and that is very much a message being sent to the watching public

to the watching world. Andy Burnham, by eschewing electing, if indeed he does so

it's not just me who thinks this, by the way. Andrew Moss said so too, so it must be true

It is announcing that things are going to be different now. Respect to Paul for my favourite message of the day

David Lammy missed a trick there. While he was in charge of the country for about 20 minutes

He should have rejoined the EU. Got it done and dusted. And this is nice, Nadine

This warmed the cockles of my bitter and cynical heart. James, she writes, I love you on days like these

You speak around all the thoughts in my head. I'm not a fan of change and I do harbour concerns about Burnham

But with Starmer seeming pleased to be going, let's bring on the new

I hope it actually does bring hope and opportunity, particularly for young people

What a lovely and generous thing to say, Nadine. We will find out relatively soon, I suppose

Before that, Maya is in Brentwood to address the question of what we think Burnham has that Starmer doesn't

For good, I would remind you, or for ill. Maya, what would you like to say? Hi, Jane

It's Maya, by the way, not Maya. Sorry, Maya. As you were. That's OK. Sorry, Maya

I said sorry, Maya, then. Sorry, Maya. It's OK. I've had it my whole life, but I thought, why not

Well, drop the A. No, I can't tell you to start spelling your name differently. I'll just make a note

Can we put a note on, in case Maya rings again, can we put a note on how to pronounce her name

Now, where were we? So, first of all, I've got no disrespect for Keir Starmer at all

I think he is a very decent human being. I think he did fail, unfortunately, for a number of reasons

In terms of what I think Andy Byrne has got that he doesn't

and I say I'm going to list these, but I'm saying this, and I really pray and hope that he uses these tools that I believe he's got

He is relatable. He is bold. He will be and can be a very good orator

And do you remember, I don't know if it was after the by-elections

where Keir Starmer made a speech, and he said, and I felt for him so much

he said, I get it. I feel it. and my heart almost broke for him because it came over so terribly like he didn't

get it and he didn't feel it and I really wish and I think he probably

practiced that 20 times but still didn get it right I feel that if we are a country in pain at any time I think you be able to see that Andy Burnham is feeling that pain And so I think he needs to hold on

I think Keir Starmer did get it. You didn't believe him when he said that he did

Exactly, exactly. And, you know, maybe that's just his personality, and I don't think it's a reason, you know, to hate him for it

or hound him out of his seat. But anyway, we are where we are. But no, it didn't come across like he got it

and it didn't come across like he felt it. And I'm not going to harp on about this next point

but it does hurt me a lot, and it was the thing that stopped me from voting for Labour last time

Come on. When he reacted the way that he reacted, when Garthens were deprived of water

and you'll know what I'm talking about. But that was after he became... That can't be why you didn't vote for Labour last time

That was after he became Prime Minister. No, but the stance that he was taking on it

It is what made me stop. I just couldn't. But I felt that he wasn't acting from the heart

I felt as a human rights lawyer he wasn't acting from the heart

That's interesting. I think Andy Burnham should act from the heart, and I think he will

And I think when he does, it will really connect. And I don't think it's going to be easy

Well, he is currently waving, whether it's from the heart or not

Only time will tell, but I'm interrupting you, Maya, just to report that Andy Burnham is now leaving Buckingham Palace

You can hear the audio feed of that moment, I think, in the background

His wife, Marie-France Van Heel, with him as this extraordinarily speedy and successful coup

because it has been a coup. It was an assault upon Keir Starmer's leadership

that began when his ambitions were scuppered. in the Gorton and Denton by-election, I think

He sought to run there and was prevented from doing so by the NEC, ended up fighting Makerfield and winning in such spectacular fashion

Dirk Keir Starmer, I think, saw that the writing on the wall was not going to be erased any time soon

So the, well, we can now call it the Prime Ministerial Convoy

is now leaving Buckingham Palace, crossing the august gravel, as my earlier texter suggested we should refer to it

and making its way back to Downey Street, where if precedence is to be observed

they don't drive up the thoroughfare, not least because you can't really these days

There's gates at both ends, but they'll go in the back way, and then Burnham will emerge shortly onto the street and deliver his speech

which Natasha Clarke will be, because these are historic moments, even if they're coming around with extraordinary regularity at the moment

They remain historic moments, and Natasha Clarke will be there to witness it in person

As a relatively young political editor, Natasha, what's your tally now? How many have you done

Oh, goodness me, James. Well, I've done a fair few prime ministers now at LBC

We've seen Rishi Sunak, Keir Starmer, and now Andy Burnham, and that's just in the time I've been at LBC, so three years

But yes, my first prime minister when I sort of came into political journalism

was David Cameron, and that's only a decade ago. So it's all pretty quick

I'm seeing more prime ministers than hot dinners, as some people have been saying this week

And James, some more new information to tell you. And to be fair, as you've been saying this morning

I can confirm there's no lecture, no podium outside No. 10 Downing Street at the moment

So we are expecting Andy Burnham to not speak from that at all

when he comes from the palace in the next few minutes. And as you say, he has now become prime minister. He's been asked to form a government by his majesty, the king

And all of his supporters are now on Downing Street waiting for him to arrive

I've just met Steve Rotherham, who, as you know, is a very good ally of Andy Burnham

I've just met his very small grandchild who is here to witness the occasion

They've all come down from Liverpool or of the family today and absolutely all delighted to be there to see their friend Andy Burnham take political office

You'll, of course, remember that Andy Burnham and Steve Rotherham are long-term allies. They go back a long time

They've written a book together. They've been mayors together and now together to see Andy Burnham take up his post in Downing Street

And like I say, James, the mood here, getting pretty elated as all of Andy Burnham's supporters gather just behind me

I'm not seeing any political appointees, however. We did, of course, see Rachel Rees

We saw David Lammy, all of Keir Starmer's top team earlier today outside number 10

There are very few politicians behind me. I imagine this is exactly the kind of atmosphere that the new incoming Prime Minister wants to portray

This is all about showing that he's, quote, just Andy, this man of the people

this person who is going to come into Downing Street with his so-called make-a-feel test

and to really show that he is going to continue to have one foot firmly planted up in the north of England

with those normal people on the street, not politicians, not special advisers all telling him what to do

He's going to be just Andy. So who are these people then? They are invited supporters. Has there been a changing of personnel? The people that were accompanying, well, providing the background to Keir Starmer's speech were largely Downing Street workers and well-wishers. They've all gone, have they now? And they've been replaced by Andy Burnham's team, as it were

Yeah, that's right. I can spot Sasha Lord, friend of LBC in the audience and nighttime economy czar and advisor to Andy Burnham

He's here in the crowds. I can also see Dale Vince. He was there at Andy Burnham's confirmation coronation, as it were, on Friday when he was appointed Labour leader

Like I say, there's lots of friends and family of Andy Burnham. We're expecting to see his wife, Marie France, as well here and Andy Burnham's three children as well

They are grown up children expecting to see them as well here on Downing Street in the next few minutes as well

But like I say, these are meant to be more ordinary people, less politicians, more of, you know, the people that Andy Burnham

Oh, I can see the car turning in now. Andy Burnham's car coming in fresh from the palace, fresh from Buckingham Palace

He is now turning into Downing Street. We're about to see him step out of the car in just a few minutes

I imagine the crowd behind me is going to be going wild in a second. Keith, write that down. That's four mistakes today so far in three hours

It's not bad going, but I thought... Well, I've made a few too, James. My podium lectern moment as well

No, I wouldn't worry about that. You can write that down too. There could easily have been a podium, but I thought, I don't know why

I thought that they parked up round the back and then came out the front of the building

But as Natasha points out, the prime ministerial convoy now making its way up

So that's actually chalked that one up as a mistake for Andrew Marr, because it is a thoroughfare

Andy Burnham's just getting out of the car, James. Here he is, Prime Minister Andy Burnham

Our new Prime Minister walking up Downing Street, accompanied by his wife. He looks absolutely delighted

We will obviously be staying with this as Andy Burnham shakes the hands of some of the assembled friends and supporters all of whom will have been invited to witness this extraordinary moment that felt a very very long way away

as recently as even six months ago. And as I mentioned a moment ago, early attempts..

Andy Burnham and his wife, Marie France, posing for pictures, shaking hands with supporters

having a few hugs and... Indeed. He's shaking hands with supporters who have lined up on Downing Street

ready to see this momentous occasion. And now the prospect of the first ever Prime Ministerial lecternless address

from the Downing Street tarmac, although given some of the things that we've been discussing for the last few minutes

I suspect that this moment will be properly indulged and properly enjoyed

by Andy Burnham and his wife, Mary France. Some of these people, of course

will have been colleagues and supporters of his back in his Westminster days

others coming to the team during his Manchester mayoralty, which has been such an immense and integral part

of what's widely seen now as a political transformation, at the very heart of which is that imposter syndrome

that we spoke about together four years ago, which Andrew Mark referred to just under two hours ago

and which Andy Burnham has always spoken of very honestly. It's tough in this country, in this class-riddled country

to move between classes, which is what a young man like Andy Burnham was required to do

when he went off to Cambridge University, originally, as you heard, against his own wishes

but very much at the encouragement of his parents and his father

and he felt horribly out of place when he got there, surrounded by people who went to public school

and were taught from a very early age that it was entirely reasonable for them to..

And there's the baby that we suggested. We'd almost say he didn't actually kiss the baby

but he kissed the man holding the baby. That's Steve Rotherham, isn't it

As Natasha mentioned, he's brought his grandchild with him. And just waiting now for the greetings

and the congratulations to be completed before Andy Burnham delivers his first address as Prime Minister

And I think it might be a slightly more interesting one than some previous incumbents have provided

not least because this determination to represent proper change and to offer something truly and measurably different

is at the very, very heart of his project. Beginning with, and yes, it's a little bit gimmicky

it's very much optics, but beginning with this decision to not do so from behind a lectern

So it's just a microphone. It's just a big microphone that you won't even see in shot, I don't think

when he begins speaking, which I expect him to do in the next few seconds

And here he is, Prime Minister. Andy Burnham. Thank you. I have just come from Buckingham Palace, where I have accepted His Majesty the King's invitation to form a government

In doing so, I am acutely conscious that I am the sixth person in the last 10 years to walk up this street

The seventh Prime Minister since 2016. Making this a moment for reflection and new resolution

It requires my generation of politicians to raise our game. and rise to the new challenge

Britain needs to show the world that we can regain our stability once again

And that is our challenge, to make politics work, to make it work better

I know people at home are fed up with politics. I hear you, and I want to be honest with you

We have not been good enough and we need to be better

We will be. We will make this moment a circuit breaker for Britain

bringing forward the biggest changes in the last 40 years. A new political model and a new economic model

in the 1980s Britain took some wrong turns political power was centralised

economic power privatised large parts of the country de-industrialised and they still haven't recovered

many feel as though they're still in decline and they don't have the ability to turn things around

and that's why we will change politics to make it more collaborative, more about problem solving than point scoring

And we will take power out of here and carry it into every postcode in the land

so that they can do more. And in doing more, build a new economy

where we put life's essentials back under stronger public control to make them affordable to you again

re-industrialising Britain using public procurement to back British industry. Later this year

I will bring forward a new plan for Britain a 10-year plan

laying out a path from where we are now to where I believe

we all want Britain to be wherever we're coming from whatever party we support

But I can do something to give people some breathing space now, some help with the cost of living

And I will set out some of those measures starting tomorrow, including how we pay for them

We will help more young people into work by changing the education system and giving them more support, more mental health support

and we will build more council homes. That is the fair and sustainable way

to bring the welfare bill down, to meet our fiscal rules and to honour our commitments on defence to our international partners We will help people to live well

building a more preventative state, investing in people's success rather than paying for failure

And that work starts now. I will soon go through that door behind me

and issue my first instruction to end rough sleeping in our country

It's about putting the right values and the right standards at the heart of government

I will put the care of people at the heart of everything I do

I will give this my all and I ask you all to pull with me

Let's build a new national sense of unity, of common purpose and positivity

Let us make this the moment when Britain starts to believe again

the moment we bring back hope. Thank you very much, everybody. And there it is, Andy Burnham's first speech to the nation as Prime Minister

containing, I mean, one specific policy pledge, which is a little rare

and otherwise, with regards to the cost of living, pretty much doing what Andrew Marr told us a couple of hours ago

he would do as he came out of the block, speaking directly to the pound in your pocket

So two things, Andrew, who is joining us now live from Downing Street

There's the style and the substance. The style, the decision not to have a lectin

and the substance, the clear articulation of what his priorities will be

Absolutely. I don't think we've had a Prime Minister. We've had a lot walking down this street, as you heard

I don't think we've had one who's promised to take power away from it

and into the rest of the country. Fairly familiar messages from Andy Byrne

including on public control of water and other utilities. An interesting announcement that his first effort will be to end rough sleeping

an anti-rough sleeping campaign, very like he did in Manchester. And a 10-year plan coming

We've had many, many plans, but another plan coming later in the summer

We won't really know very much about the detailed direction until we get the names of the cabinet ministers

Yvette Cooper has apparently been inside the building for some purpose already, but we don't know any more yet

She's an ally of Burnham's, historically? Is she an ally? Yeah. Well, she's somebody... Her position is very interesting

Lots and lots of big men have been angling for her job

David Miliband, most obviously, but plenty more. But there are people who say, actually, she's done very well

More poots of applause behind me. He's enjoying his second round with the crowd

One thing I should say, James, there he is again. In terms of the different vibe

you can tell that an awful lot of people are not from London. A huge crowd of people from the north behind me

And you can tell them they're from the north because they're better dressed, they're smarter than we sloppy southerners

I wondered where you were going with that, Andrew Marr, but I'm perfectly happy with where you ended up

Although Andy Burnham has, of course, not been always suited and booted

in the way that many politicians are. And there is the footage of them coming into Downing Street

for the very first time. And, of course, we forget... That is the moment

It's his home now. It's their home now, as well as their office, as well as his office

I'm losing you there, James, but I'm just going to say that the team inside No. 10

will be very unfamiliar. Most of the key people who are there with Keir Starmer

have left already. They were there to cheer him out. They have gone. There's an entirely new team here

And we in the media have been shepherded around very expertly by people we don't actually know

very well at the moment. That's going to be a familiar feeling right across Whitehall from now on

But it will soon change as journalists like you begin to forge new relationships

and make or develop new contacts. Andrew Marr, as you would expect

and, as always, providing sterling service from Downing Street, as indeed has Natasha Clarke today, our political editor

And as we have been telling you all morning, those cabinet appointments will begin almost immediately

Make of that speech what you will, as Mamirian for Sheila next will no doubt be inviting your first impressions of Andy Burnham's premiership

But there is little doubt that he intends to hit the ground running. And as Andrew once again reminded us, that pledge regarding rough sleeping is an echo of what he has achieved as mayor of Manchester

And the flesh upon those bones that we await now will become clearer as those appointments are made

The direction of traffic, just to mix my metaphors slightly, the direction of traffic set to be in large part determined by who is in the vehicle with him

But I suppose if you wanted to take away one or two major moments or major elements of both that speech and Andy Burnham's arrival in Downing Street, it is that this is not a passing on of the baton

Sometimes when a sitting prime minister is replaced without a general election, it can be a continuation rather than a departure from what has gone before

But Andy Burnham clearly feels and intends to deliver a very different mode of government, style of government, and indeed ambition of government from what we have seen under Keir Starmer

Another correction, to go back to the very beginning of this morning's programme, you will be messaging me now, indeed you are, to claim that Downing Street does actually have a letterbox

It doesn't work. You can't put anything through it. So I was right

It's not a letterbox. It looks like a letterbox. It's the illusion of a letterbox, but it doesn't actually do what a letterbox should do

Only time will tell whether Andy Burnham is currently providing the illusion of a prime minister who intends to be measurably different

the illusion of a prime minister who intends to signal and deliver meaningful change, or whether or not he is the real deal

That is it from me for today. You can listen back on our free Global Player app or the LBC app

You can, of course, watch back as well and stay up to date with all the latest news videos and opinion

There's a dizzying range of podcasts available there as well. So download the official LBC app for free from your app store now

Tom Swarbrick back in his familiar chair from four. But now standing in for Sheila Fogarty, it's Asma Mir

James O'Brien on LBC