Should Andy Burnham sanction Israel? | James O'Brien - The Whole Show

The minutes after ten is the time of Very Good Morning Indeed To You

My inbox, just so you know, for the next ten minutes, in fact I'm going to close it until the first hydration break of the morning

is just going to contain people pointing out that Stand By Your Man was a Tammy Wynette song and not one of the great tracks

associated with the late great Dolly Parton. So there goes my inbox for the next ten or fifteen minutes or so

So, hey, the crosses we have to bear. it's funny isn't it the way in which some people

some icons, some superstars transcend normal conversations the simple obituary, the marking

the poor anecdote from your favourite or least favourite presenter and some people just

make you wonder what on earth did they possess that was so extraordinary

and so special and Dolly Parton very very much in the latter category so we will almost certainly

turn our attention to that question a little later in the programme. I'm drawn also, I don't know why

well I think I do know why these stories fascinate us actually. I think we mock preppers

We like to mock preppers, people who are preparing for disaster, people who are getting ready or have been getting ready

for national or even international emergencies. Because if we mock the prepper

then we sort of give ourselves a free pass on feeling frightened. If I mock the prepper

then obviously there's nothing to be frightened about. big news in that department which I suspect will have some people twirling their moustaches

and saying I told you so I'd like to get on to that later in the program as well

but we begin with something that I hadn't fully clocked when Andy Burnham was on manoeuvres

to replace Keir Starmer and he was on manoeuvres I think for a little bit longer than was publicly

appreciated, he was pretty careful to avoid explicitly criticising the man he sought to

replace. Explicit criticism of Keir Starmer from Andy Burnham was pretty thin on the ground

up to and including and beyond the Makerfield by-election win. But when it comes to the party's

position on Israel, he went further than I think he did on any other front. And it wasn't long after

getting into Downing Street that he issued an apology on the entire party's behalf, claiming

that the party didn't get it right in its initial response to Israel's military action. This would

probably refer mostly to an interview that Keir Starmer gave in this very room, in this very studio

to Nick Ferrari, in which he appeared to, well, didn't appear to, in which he did for that moment

and in that moment essentially offer tacit approval or explicit approval of Israel going

on to commit war crimes in the Gaza Strip, suggesting that cutting off energy or water

would be an acceptable response. I was in the room upstairs as this happened, and they backtracked

almost immediately. Starmer wasn't that new in the job, but he, or was he quite new in the job

actually, come to think of? He would have been quite new in the job, but that's no excuse

They sought to remove that observation, that comment, they sought to disown it, but it was

too late. It was halfway around the world, to paraphrase a well-known adage, it was halfway

around the world before the correction or the retraction had got its trousers on. And it was

for that, I think, that Andy Burnham was apologising. And it was for that, of course, that some people

found themselves unable ever to forgive Keir Starmer. And as the response to the atrocities

of October the 7th, edged ever closer to atrocity, the sense that Keir Starmer was not responding properly

or robustly to Israeli aggression, to genocide, to ethnic cleansing, to all manner of hideous happenings

and deaths, of course, gathered pace. I think unfairly, I think, you know

Keir Starmer was getting it in the neck from Benjamin Netanyahu, who, remember, has, you know

people in his cabinet who are now publicly calling for innocent people to be shot to death just for sort of fun almost in the case of Itamar Ben

Gavir and to be keeping, what would you call it, polite lines of communication or respectful lines

of communication open with a government that contains human beings like that, him and Smotrich

being, you know, absolutely beyond contempt was a decision that Keir Starmer took for diplomatic

reasons. And it meant that he ended up getting a lot of abuse domestically from people who felt

that he wasn't being anything like robust enough with regard to Israel, and extraordinary abuse

from the Israeli Prime Minister and others. Benjamin Netanyahu accusing him of pretty much

every offence under the sun. I can't absolutely remember, but probably up to and including

allegations of anti-Semitism, which kind of get levelled at anybody these days who suggests that

maybe you could stop killing some of these people, especially the children. And, of course, by refusing to join Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu in the attack on Iran

he left himself open to even more criticism. Kemi Baden-Ock, Nigel Farage and various right-wing commentators

jumping up and down to suggest that Keir Starmer had been remiss in not joining that ludicrous war

which is, by the way, still going on. And yet events, of course, have vindicated him in every imaginable way

But it meant that he found himself in this extraordinary position of being attacked by supporters of Israel for not supporting Israel enough

and being attacked by critics of Israel for not being critical enough of Israel

Which brings us to Andy Burnham and a story on the front page of the Times today

which appears to be impeccably sourced and which reports that Andy Burnham will soon announce

robust sanctions on Israeli settlements in the West Bank. And there's the first semantic hurdle that we have to overcome because these are illegal occupations or these are illegal dwellings built in the West Bank in land that is not Israel's and which ordinarily involves the removal or the expulsion of people who were there previously

Some of the violence undertaken by so-called settlers is already off the charts and getting worse

So what do you do about this? And of course the state endorsement of this behaviour is not only sort of baked in to Netanyahu's political position and his cabinet, but it is also absolutely consolidated by recently announced plans to open tenders to construct 1,200 settler homes

so the Israeli government is inviting companies to bid for a contract to build dwellings for

illegal occupiers of Palestinian land in the West Bank and the geographical location of this

development wherever to occur would essentially destroy for generations any prospect of a two-state

solution it would in effect cut the West Bank in half. So the British government

has a choice. The British government can either do nothing about this which is

the position Keir Starmer adopted previously although he wasn't in power when this E1 development was announced or at least when it was put out for tender If you want to catch up on the detail Nogatana Polsky talked us through it live from Jerusalem in characteristically clear fashion last week

So you have a choice, as Andy Burnham, and the question I'm going to ask you at the end

of this introduction will be, what should Andy Burnham do? And if you want, why

But I'm interested really in the first instance in what you think he should do

and the Burnham has a choice. He can do nothing or he can do something

There may be a third way here. There may be a third way here

but I can't currently see what it is. I can see nothing, which is where we are currently

and I can see something which would involve following the lead of countries like Spain and Ireland

and imposing sanctions on Israeli settlements, illegal occupations i.e. not doing business with not doing any trade with the so-called settlements

and the sanctioning of individuals associated with those settlements and the the violence undertaken

by the so-called settlers that that's the choice as i see it right he can do nothing

which is essentially a tacit waving through of this very, very deliberate attempt

to kill off the two-state solution forever and to dispossess Palestinians in the West Bank of their own land

their own, in some cases, homes. Or he can sanction the people responsible

and the so-called settlements being mooted. That's his choice. Now, why wouldn't he do something instead of nothing

That's not a rhetorical question. I know the answer to this. Why wouldn't he do something instead of nothing

There are two answers to this, one of which Noga provided us with last week. One of which, it enhances the siege mentality of the far right and the extremists

It would give them more ammunition for their argument that they are, you know

fighting furiously for survival against the entire world. The details don't really matter to that kind of rhetoric

You claim that you need to do this, and therefore anybody who opposes it

is an enemy of all Jewish people everywhere in the world, even the Jewish people who were as repulsed by some of these plans

as anybody else is. As I say, the detail doesn't matter. So reason number one why you might not do it

it feeds the siege mentality of the Israeli right or the Israeli far right

and would therefore be politically damaging to Israel's opposition, which is currently doing quite well in the polls

And that position, that positive position would be compromised. That's the Labour Friends of Israel position

which includes senior Labour MPs and peers. It strongly opposes the settlements

and supports calibrated steps against extremist settlers and extremist settler groups. But a boycott of trade with those settlements would become a de facto boycott of all of Israel

So this is problem two with doing something instead of nothing. What the Labour friends of Israel don't do is lay out in detail what calibrated steps would look like

They simply tell you what they would not welcome, which would be a boycott of trade with the illegal occupation areas

because that would involve a de facto boycott of all of Israel

which would be damaging to the UK national interest, the British Jewish community

and to Palestinian workers in areas that are not illegally occupied. And then they go on to point out that with the general election

coming on October the 27th, there is a danger of giving more weight

to what they call the Israeli right, I'll call the Israeli far right

and therefore make it less likely that Benjamin Netanyahu would be replaced

or that the toxic elements of his own cabinet would disappear from the front line of British politics after the next election

This is what Burnham said right at the beginning of his, or shortly before he became Prime Minister

I know that many people feel that at the start of Israel's military action in Gaza

my party didn't get it right and I'm sorry about that. He then promised to do better

Ed Miliband last week described the plans known as the E1 settlement as an unacceptable and destructive act

explaining that it would cut across, Ed Miliband of course is a Jewish man

would cut across the heart of Palestine and risk separating the West Bank from East Jerusalem

which would endanger the viability of a two-state solution Britain will not stand back and accept the destruction of the two-state solution

He speaks now, of course, as Foreign Secretary, adding, in the coming weeks we will set out a comprehensive set of measures

to respond to Israeli government policies, to protect the viability of the Palestinian state

to target sanctions at those who participate in illegal settlement and expansion

and support a just and lasting peace for Israelis. So what have other countries done

Spain has imposed a total ban on all arms sales to Israel

and on all imports of products originating from illegal settlements. If you advertise goods, you are breaking the law

or you're breaking the rules that were issued last September. Ireland passed legislation last month prohibiting the import of goods

from Israeli settlements in occupied Palestinian territories. Trump administration didn't like it

although relations between Trump and Netanyahu at the moment are pretty strained

Emily Thornberry, who chairs the Foreign Affairs Select Committee, said, now is the time to act. We can't put it off any longer. They're about to put out tenders

on the new development, which is the final piece of the jigsaw. It will cut the nation of Palestine

in half and cut it away from Jerusalem. She explained, they are trying to get these contracts

signed before the elections, which they may not win. They have said they want to obliterate any

chance of a Palestinian state, we have to stop it. And that's why I think the choice this morning

is between doing something, and that would involve the targeting of illegal settlements in the West

Bank, or doing nothing, which was the position previously adopted on this particular front

by Keir Starmer. And those are the reasons why you might think

that the British government should do nothing. Number one would be boosting the far-right elements

of the current Israeli regime and beyond, adding to the siege mentality

The whole world is against us, therefore we have to behave like this in order to protect ourselves

even as they continue to enjoy the patronage of the most powerful country in the world

Or the other reason why you might be in favour of doing nothing

is that it would be impossible to specifically target the illegal settlements

without also encompassing areas of Israel's sovereignty, so the sovereign land of Israel

You would not be able to put a ban on products coming out of those very specific bits without also compromising trade with parts of that corner of the planet that are not illegally occupied by Israelis

And I wonder how easy it is to live with that second prospect

because these are all government-sanctioned now proposals. So, you know, if the British government announced that it was going to do something in Kidderminster

and we said, well, we're going to sanction everybody in Kidderminster, it would completely ignore the fact

that the government was behind the decision to do the thing in Kidderminster

So the argument that you shouldn't sanction the people in these settlements

because it might affect people who aren't in the settlements is an argument that seems to me to lack circularity

It is a bit like saying, no, no, no, you can't. The government has made the decision to do this

Members of the government are actually illegal settlers. They are absolutely up to their ears in this illegal occupation

But we can't target the settlements because it might accidentally encompass areas that aren't settled

but are governed by the people who are behind the plan to do more illegal occupation

And that, I think, is all of the detail that you need. So, what should Andy Burnham do

0345 6060 973 is the number that you need. I get a lot of messages about Israel

even when we're not talking about it. And I think one great tragedy, and I consider this to be a tragedy

I fully accept that you may not, is that those of us who warned that Netanyahu and his far-right colleagues

were going to lead Israel into pariah status as a consequence of the carnage that they've inflicted on Gaza

and the criminality that they continue to conduct in the West Bank

that those of us who recognised the need for a sovereign and safe state of Israel

but were not, if you like, blindly supportive of everything that the current regime did

We were warning from pretty much a fortnight, a month after the October 7th atrocities

we were warning that people who feel as sad and as heartbroken by the death of a Jewish child or a Jewish citizen

as they do by a Palestinian child or a Palestinian citizen, were being squeezed out of the conversation

And if you let Netanyahu and his colleagues conduct or lead the discourse here and you shut down, as has been attempted but has failed, all of the people who just cannot stop feeling pain at what they are seeing, then Israel is going to paint itself into a corner that is going to take generations to get out of

And I think that's happened now. But it doesn't make Andy Burnham's decision any easier

if he introduces sanctions they may affect parts of israel they may affect parts of the middle east

that israel is not illegally occupying it will affect the parts that they are legally

um sovereign where they are legal and sovereign or it might boost the far right who you know

have been doing pretty well lately anyway and if he does nothing then i mean worst stroke best

case scenario, this development gets built, the West Bank gets cut in half and the prospect

of a two-state solution disappears. If not forever, then certainly for generations. So

what does Burnham do? Does he do the sanctions or does he do nothing? That's it. That's the

question. 0345. Or, you know me, there's never one question. Is there another option that

is before him that I can't currently see? 0345 6060 973. What do you want Andy Burnham

to do in response to plans or announcements, tenders invited by the Israeli government to

construct 1,200 illegal homes in a crucial section of the West Bank to the permanent detriment of a

two-state solution? What do you want Andy Burnham to do in response to that plan? Okay, if you hit

the numbers now, you will get through. And that's the question. I don't want any whataboutery

I don't want any other baggage brought to the conversation. I simply want you

as presumably as a British citizen or a British voter, to tell me what you want your Prime Minister

to do. I mean, you don't have to be British, obviously, to contribute to this. You just have

to have an interest in the issue, which I think everybody should have, but perhaps not everybody

does. So there it is. What should Andy Burnham do? 0345 6060 973

James O'Brien on LBC. It's 25 minutes after 10 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

Big test for Burnham. Arguably his biggest yet because it will probably

and again we fall into the trap of treating Donald Trump like a sane or rational player

It will probably upset the United States government if the British government elects to impose sanctions on anything Israeli

adjacent or Israeli-associated. But the alternative is to do nothing. The alternative is to sit on our hands

while the Israeli government invites people to make money out of building illegal homes in the middle of the West Bank

in a way that would not only cut the territory in half

but would also, according to pretty much any expert I've been able to encounter today

it would also render any prospect of a two-state solution pretty much impossible in the foreseeable future and beyond

And perhaps the bit I haven't articulated in the course of this introduction

is the people who feel incredibly unrepresented in the British media landscape at the moment

the people who are absolutely enraged or heartbroken about what continues to go on

In Gaza, where people are still being killed despite the so-called ceasefire

and in the West Bank, where settler violence is being ratcheted up quite deliberately

and for political reasons by not sort of rogue players or outsiders

people who very much used to be outsiders, but people who more recently have become

absolutely key parts of Benjamin Netanyahu's survival tactics, Benjamin Netanyahu's process of self-preservation

That's the real tragedy here, that Netanyahu has co-opted people who understandably dedicate themselves

are completely dedicated to the survival of the modern state of Israel

and used them to essentially argue and support the atrocities that are not just undertaken

but actively encouraged by people like Smotrich and Ben-Gavir, who are key constituents of his cabinet

They are no longer extremists. They are no longer outsiders. They are no longer outriders who are at odds with government policy

You know, they are so empowered now that they will stand up in public and state that they would like to see 30 or 40 Palestinians

regardless of what they've done or who they're associated with or whether they are members of Hamas

I'd just like to see 30 or 40 people killed every night as some sort of warning to the others

So, with that backdrop, with that scenario in place, Andy Burnham's options seem pretty

paltry don they He can impose sanctions with the intention of them being confined to the illegal settlements but with no way of guaranteeing that that would be confined

And I guess the question that I'm asking you today is how comfortable you are with that

With the idea of the sanctions, in actuality, in operation, they extend beyond the original targets and do end up affecting trade with Israel

with legitimate sovereign parts of Israel. That would be the objection that Labour friends of Israel have raised

that if you do this, you don't get to actually fully control or fully compartmentalise the target of the sanctions

And I suspect that many people will be able to live with that

because the problem that is being addressed is a problem of the Israeli government's making

It's not a problem of Andy Burnham's making. It is a problem of their making

And therefore, the consequences of that decision, the consequences of that action probably could, as Spain and Ireland have decided, be brought to bear upon everybody in the area as opposed to the people explicitly involved in the illegal occupations

But all of that, of course, comes to the question that I'm asking you now

And you understand, of course, why I have to do a slightly even longer introduction than usual on a subject like this

because people, for good or for ill, are determined to hear things that they haven't heard

or to try to send the conversation off in a completely different direction. So for the avoidance of any doubt whatsoever, what should Andy Burnham do

Do you want him to announce robust sanctions on Israeli settlements in the West Bank

despite warnings that they could spiral into a de facto boycott of the country

Or do you want him to do nothing? Or do you want him to do something else

It's half past ten, and Dominic Ellis has your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC

Two minutes after ten, let me just read you something from a correspondent of mine

To my mind, he should impose sanctions and frame it very simply

and this is someone of Israeli heritage, lives in Britain at the moment, but has lots of family back in Israel

To my mind, he should impose sanctions and frame it very simply, she writes. This is not Israel

These people are extremists who are at the margins of Israeli society. They illegally occupy land that is not Israel's

carrying out heinous violent pogroms daily. They don't uphold Jewish or human values

and therefore absolutely don't represent Israeli or Jewish people. Burnham is very good at these matter-of-fact explanations

and I don't even think he needs to go into the fact that, tragically, representatives of this marginal part of Israeli society

took hold of two key government positions due to the circumstances of Netanyahu's legal affairs

and the opposition's incompetence in working together before the last fateful Israeli elections

They won't repeat these mistakes again. Ben Gavir and Smotrich will be out of power soon

and Burnham, spelling it out as it is, in my view, won't harm the chances of this happening

As I read that, I recall a message I saw during the hydration break from Richard

which says what I really hate, and I can't think of any other comparison

is the link between Israel and the Jewish religion. How do we separate the two

I've still not figured it out in my head. Well, that's because people don't want you to

I'll find them in the next break. I'll have messages accusing me of anti-Semitism

simply for hoping for peace in the Middle East or hoping that the far-right extremists in Netanyahu's government

disappear from political life for the foreseeable future come the October election

But that message there, I think, really addresses Richard's point. You announced that you're imposing sanctions, but not on Israel

You are imposing them on extremists who are at the margins of Israeli society

They are illegally occupying land that is not Israel's. They're carrying out heinous and violent pogroms daily

They don't uphold Jewish or human values, and therefore they don't represent Israeli or Jewish people

Peter's in New Malden. Peter, what made you pick up the phone? Thank you, James, and thank you for keeping the focus on this

There was a letter from 102 former British and French ambassadors last week calling for sanctions not just against the settlements, but against Israel as a whole and against the Netanyahu government

Also calling for recognition or acceptance of the advice of the International Court of Justice and the ICC, the International Criminal Court

More Aid for Palestinians for UNRWA, the UN agency supporting Palestinians. It's a very strong letter. I recommend it to you

Did you sign it? Yeah, I was former ambassador to Jordan. I signed the letter as well

Well, before we get into the detail of that letter, it will be news to a lot of people listening to this programme

And by dint of the fact that they're listening to this programme and this radio station, they are people who keep abreast of current affairs

And yet the fact that 102 former French and British diplomats, so only two countries, 102 former diplomats

calling on their countries to jointly sanction Israel, warning in an open letter that their policy in occupied Palestinian territory

threatens to permanently erase the possibility of a Palestinian state. Were you surprised by how little coverage that got last week

Yes, it was a letter addressed to the Prime Minister and President of France

It was covered by Le Monde in France. I think there was an article in The Guardian

but it was hardly touched the surface in this country. Which is telling

Yeah, indicative. Indicative of a fear, I think, of having the conversation

even as the pendulum has swung so far that it is now impossible

for almost anybody honest to defend what is going on in the West Bank

Which is why, as you referred to, the initial comments by Prime Minister Burnham and Foreign Secretary Miliband are promising

But let's see what the package contains, because it needs to be quite a comprehensive package and it needs to make a difference

It needs to make an impact. The only way it's going to make an impact is on the prosperity of Israel and the trade of Israel

which is why a more blanket trade ban, which is what's been advocated by the French ambassadors

as far as the EU is concerned. And that would involve, I mean, a scenario that affected

as the Labour friends of Israel warned this morning, affected much broader trade with Israel

potentially affected UK businesses, and undermined trade with Israel more broadly. You and your co

It's targeting the current Netanyahu government. And of course, if government changes, if you see different policies, then the trade agreement can be reinstated

It's only abrogating or at least postponing to the time being. And there are conditions within both agreements, the UK and the EU's ones, which allow and actually should allow such..

When we see war crimes being committed in Gaza, there is a strong legal basis for doing so

Why do you think Keir Starmer didn't do more? You don't have to answer that question

You're a career diplomat, so I can't tempt you into indiscretion. But, I mean, were you disappointed, surprised, or did you see it

Go on, tell me more. Yes, because the thing that he did, which was positive

which was the recognition of the state of Palestine. But now, of course, we're seeing that state being erased

So I would have liked to have seen stronger measures and steps by the previous legislatures

government. Now is the time, as you said, you quoted Emily Thornberry, now is the time to act

And, I mean, let me run you through some of the reservations that have been raised by Labour

friends of Israel, who for clarity strongly oppose the settlements that we're talking about and

support what they call calibrated steps against extremist settlers and extremist settler groups

You and your co-signatories clearly don't believe that that goes anywhere near far enough, but let

me run you through the reasons they have for their reservations. One would be that a boycott

of trade with settlements is practically impossible. You've dealt with that because you're saying

we should have a boycott of all of Israel for the duration of this current regime's current policy

Deeply damaging to the UK national interest, damaging to the British Jewish community and

damaging to Palestinian workers. These are potential issues that need to be thought through

But I don't see any of those as being major obstacles, and they can be handled through the diplomacy which can be deployed

in making clear this has nothing to do with the Jewish people, for sure

but also it's not about the Jewish community or Israelis living in the UK

And finally, moreover, with a general election on October 27th, there is a real risk that untargeted action feeds the siege mentality

of the Israeli right and is thus politically damaging to Israel's opposition

which is leading in the polls and will bring about a substantive change in direction

I don't think any steps that we take. Unfortunately, I don't think they're going to make any difference

to people like Ben Govee and Smotrick. And yes, we want to see change in the government

but obviously we're not in a position to interfere in the internal effects of the Israeli elections

So, I mean, the question is, should Andy Burnham do this or do nothing, and I suggested

there might be a third way, and you and 101 other people with diplomatic

careers in France and in Britain have already answered that question, is that he should do more

He should do more. Yeah, definitely. Gosh. Now's the time to do it

Thank you, Peter. Peter Millett there, former ambassador to Jordan, drawing our attention

and I'm afraid I missed this as well, which is embarrassing for me, because I do this stuff for a living

to a letter signed by 102 former diplomats just from two countries. So this

is just France and UK. Spain's already done it. Ireland's already done it. A coalition

of 102 former French and British diplomats calling on their countries to jointly sanction

Israel in ways that go much further than what it's suggested Andy Burnham may be

poised to do on the front page of the Times today. It was published by the French

outlet Le Monde. No equivalent publication here, although The Guardian did report

it and I presume a couple of other outlets did as well, although not in enough detail

for it to have beeped on most of our radars. Thank goodness Peter was listening today to draw our attention to that. So, I mean, there's

your third option. Should Andy Burnham do what is suggested today? Should Andy Burnham do more

which is what 102 British and French diplomats are calling upon their own governments for

Or should Andy Burnham do nothing? 0345 6060973. Sean's in Enfield. Sean, what would you like to

say? He's absolutely doing the right thing. I'd like to see him go further and place sanctions

on Israel entirely. I don't even understand why it's a question personally

It's the genocide. Most of the nation are against it. And I don't see how we can support

or trade with a nation who's behaved as abhorrently as they have. So you would have called for much more

to be done long before this latest illegal settlement was announced and tenders

The government inviting tenders to construct 1,200 settler homes in circumstances that literally

nobody can argue aren't illegal. You didn't need that to happen for your position to be

hardening because of what has gone on. Yes. Since the NACPA really, they've behaved

terribly. I think this recent spate has began since the atrocities on October

the 7th, which were terrible but this issue's gone on for much, much longer than that

and if this I don't like to bring up race but if

this was... to call citizens were white, this wouldn't even be a question

No, I see what you mean. If it were Caucasian people being killed

to the tune of, I think, 72,000 at the last count, then the attitude of the rest of the world

might be a little different. We'll never know. I mean, you might be right. You might not be, but it would be..

It's a counterfactual, isn't it? It's impossible to prove. And therefore, you are supremely unmoved

by worries about a boycott of settlements. becoming a de facto boycott of all of Israel

because you would be in favour of an actual, not de facto, but an explicit boycott of all of Israel

as indeed the 102 diplomats. Even the Times story that I'm reading today

doesn't mention that letter that Peter Millett just told us about, which is, when you think about it, pretty extraordinary

And to be clear, these are not reservations that you would have, Sean, because you'd be in favour of a much broader boycott anyway

Absolutely. I think it's necessary. If we want to be on the right side of history

it has to be done. This is a genocide. We have people being murdered in their thousands

and we need to do something. Yeah, although today's question isn't about that

Your rationale for answering that question brings those considerations into it. It brings, of course, the memories of the so-called BDS

back to the forefront of the conversation, the boycott, divestment and sanctions movement

which was most comparable to the economic and cultural boycotts against apartheid South Africa

in which the last government, the Conservative government, was in the process of kind of outlawing it

It was going to ban public bodies like trade unions or student groups from imposing boycotts or sanctions on any foreign countries

But, of course, that got stopped when Rishi Sunak called the 2024 general election

I mean, there's another argument that you might want to examine, I mean, the idea that, you know, this is just one example of Netanyahu's conduct

And there are already plenty, long before this latest illegal occupation, building companies were invited to submit tenders for the work building illegal dwellings in the West Bank

Long before that happened, the case for boycott, divestment and sanctions was in place

And I'll leave you with this before we head for another break. I mean, and don't bother messaging me to say I knew about it, James

um i didn't i didn't know about it i follow things pretty closely i know i've had a lot on my mind

lately um with my mom not being well although thank you for all your lovely messages she's

she's doing a lot better than she was a couple of weeks ago but i still do this every day i still

come to work every day i still read every paper every day i still keep my eyes eye on the news

every day i still work in a newsroom i'm still reading the stories today about what andy burnham

is minded to do. And in that front-page time story, I haven't turned to the fold again yet

I read it earlier, cursorily. That front-page time story about what Andy Burnham

is thinking of doing, there is no mention whatsoever of 102 French and British diplomats

writing to their own governments last week calling upon the Prime Ministers to go much further

I just lead you to wonder why. That all Just wonder why James O on LBC If you have any morals or humanity writes Sheena surely you can do nothing You have to do something

This is the apartheid of our time. Jesper writes, it's important to remember that Ben Gavir is wildly unpopular among Israelis

It's Netanyahu's fault that he's in there. And on a slightly different note

Rob, referring to yesterday's programme, saying, I was gutted to have been listening to your show one hour behind, James

I had so many good Fox stories. Just a little reminder that we deal in light and shade on this programme

although today's first conversation is very much in the latter category. So I've become a little bit obsessed with this now

partly because of my Catholic tendency to self-flagellate. How could I not have known about the letter that Peter Millett

the former Ambassador to Jordan, just told us about when he rang into the programme? If he hadn't had the radio on in his car, we may not still know about it

And so I'm looking for where I could have seen it. The Guardian covered it, but it was at the weekend

which is why I missed it. that's the only British media outlet I can see at the moment

who covered this story properly. Al Jazeera covered it. France 24 covered it

Le Monde in France published the actual letter. The Voice in this country covered it

The Jerusalem Post covered it. Haaretz, which is another Israeli media outlet, covered it

And yet, even as they write up today in the British media

reports that Andy Burnham is poised to announce robust sanctions, they managed to omit

because quite possibly they missed it as well. this. I'm not necessarily suggesting anything more

sinister has gone on here. They managed to omit the fact that

102 French and British ambassadors, actual ambassadors, have urged their own governments to do much

more than Andy Burnham is currently minded to do. So, pretty hard to

argue against what he's planning to do, given that many of the experts

in the area of diplomacy think that he should go much further. uh ethan is in holloway ethan what would you like to say hi there good morning yeah i think

he needs to go much much further um you know sanctioning um settlements in the west bank isn't

nearly enough um the west but look at the coverage sorry to interrupt you but but i mean you know

starmer probably did his biggest mistakes as a consequence of paying too much attention to the

coverage while apparently seeming not to care unduly about it he obviously did just think of

winter fuel allowances and stuff like that. The coverage today is divided

and that's about Andy Burnham going nowhere near as far as these 102 former ambassadors want him to go

So he has to take that into account. Metrics, optics, reporting, PR, doesn't he

Yeah, because he's lost people on the left. People like me. He's lost teachers, he's lost trade unionists

he's lost people who have even a morsel of scruples about issues like this

about issues like human rights. And I'd just like to challenge the idea

made by a previous caller that these people are on the fringes of Israeli society

that they're just the one-to-do people. Hang on a sec. That was by an Israeli citizen

I know, and they're wrong. Okay. So I would just like to say

and I'll make the case right now for that. I disagree with you. I'm going to let you make your case

but just for the record, I disagree with you. The settlers undertaking violence, I don't think

are popular among the Israeli public as a whole. And one of the arguments against not sanctioning them

is that it gives them a kind of victim status that might, it is argued, make them less unpopular

But you are perfectly entitled to make your case. James, can I ask you, how many years has Bibi been in power for

How long has he been Prime Minister at different times throughout his life

And he's brought in these extremists in order to sustain his own survival

In an ideal universe, even he wouldn't have done that. But they are unpopular people, Smotrich and Ben Gavir

But we're getting a bit waylaid, I think. No, no, Bibi's been in power for 18 years, okay, at different times

That means he's overwhelmingly popular, okay? People know what his agenda is

We weren't talking about him, were we? We were talking about the settlers and about Ben Gavir and Smotrich

when we were talking about outsiders and extremists. It's not just restricted to them

He is part of the... He's the leader of the Likud Party

which is the conservatives in Israel. Again, I know all this, but the point that you're addressing..

I don't like interrupting you like this because you'll think that I'm badgering you, but you've just missed the point

The point that you're addressing from a friend of mine, in fact, who emailed me was simply to say

that the people undertaking the pogroms, the heinous, violent pogroms, do not uphold Jewish or human values

They do not represent the Israeli or the Jewish people. They are extremists who are at the margins of Israeli society

She was not talking about Benjamin Netanyahu, so it's pointless for you to pretend that she was

No, no, wait a minute. They are part of his government. They're part of his cabinet

We know all this, Ethan. Can you just wait a second? Well, OK. Please wait

Give me some latitude here. You've spoken more than I have in the course of this conversation

Yeah, but I've been cut off. Please just give me a little bit of room to make my case

I'm just pointing out. You said, I want to address your previous contributor

and you've completely misrepresented what she said. That's all. No, I haven't. You have

No, the Pew Research Centre, okay, did some research, and they found that 96% of the Israeli public

96% feel that Israel hasn't gone hard enough, hasn't been aggressive enough in the Gaza Strip

Not in the West Bank. Not in the West Bank. Because you've done it again. We're talking about the West Bank

No, you cannot separate the Gaza Strip with the West Bank. I'm going to be quiet for a full minute

I'm going to be quiet for a full minute and let you speak, all right? The Gaza Strip and the West Bank are both occupied territories

They are both the places that will make up the future Palestinian state

So disconnecting them in the way that you have, I don't think is helpful

The Gaza Strip and the West Bank are necessary for the establishment of a Palestinian state

Israeli attitudes have become increasingly right-wing, increasingly reactionary. The fact that Bibi Netanyahu is known as King Bibi in Israel because his premiership has gone on for so long speaks to the idea that he and the people who he is associated with are actually quite mainstream

They've become the mainstream. The center ground of Israeli politics has shifted

The entire Israeli left has been beaten into the ground. it's a lot more worrying than you might imagine

And, you know, my parents live out there and they're very liberal

They're part of that, you know, jazz-listening, coffee-drinking society. But, you know what I mean, James

Of course I do. But they are not representative of what goes on more broadly in the country

It's extremely worrying. And everyone likes to quote Ben Gavir and Smotrich

They're not the only ones. What about the Minister of Antiquity, who called for a nuclear strike on Palestinians

Right back at the beginning of the invasion of Gaza. Yeah, what about Yoav Galant

I mean it the entire cabinet It the entire cabinet There this tendency to think that oh it just a bunch of wacky people on the right It so much worse than that It so much worse than that James

I've seen it over, as a person from the Jewish community, I've seen it over the last 20, 30 years

It's gone further and further and further down that right wing rabbit hole. The political

landscape of the country is barely recognizable it's radicalized absolutely i think the reason i

was pushing back at you and i was wrong to do so i thought you were going off down a down a rabbit

hole that i um that you didn't actually then go off down so my apologies for that i haven't

double checked the pew research but i know the massive plurality of um of polling shows support

for what has gone on in Gaza. But is it entirely wrong then to point out

as most people I know who would be part of your parents' demographic in Israel

is it entirely wrong to point out that Smotrich and Ben-Gavir are historic outriders

that Netanyahu has simply co-opted in order to protect himself? It's entirely wrong to point that out

because you see that entire cabinet as homogenous. Yeah, I'll explain it this way

These people come from, they are the ideological legacy of someone called Mayor Kahana

And Mayor Kahana was a fascist rabbi and his party, Kah, they were outlawed by the Knesset

by the Israeli parliament. They weren't allowed to be a political force in Israeli politics

And now, his legacy are those very people who currently sit in Bibi's cabinet

That party has now been mainstream. I do understand this. And of course, the people who were involved in the assassination as well, of course

are now represented in the cabinet. I do understand all of that. People like that

Yeah, I know. And the thing I'm just asking for your help with

is your confidence. I mean, in a way, now that I'm even framing the question

it begins to sound a little bit ridiculous. The idea that we can separate Netanyahu

or Galan or other members of the cabinet from these two toxic characters

that's actually a red herring, isn't it? And that's something that perhaps... Absolutely

That's why I wanted to call in, because I think you're one of the people on the station

that sees it the right way. I don't think there are many, but I think it's really important to recognise

what we're up against here. This is a really particularly toxic and malignant

and I do say fascist, government in Israel. And I don't mean that as a pejorative

I mean that as a politics teacher. it's fascistic in the italian sense it's it's especially dangerous and they they are destroying

what what is left of of israeli liberal left-wing secular politics in that country

what do you think is going to happen on the 27 i i i i'm not i'm not hopeful i i think i think things will get worse and worse

because of the kind of conversation we're having now which is oh how far should the sanctions go

should we impose sanctions at all i mean these settlements have been going on since 1967

I mean, in the West Bank, in the last 10 months, Israel's killed a thousand Palestinian civilians

A thousand. We're so late to the party. The whole world is so late

And they've not done nearly enough to hold Israel accountable and the United States accountable

we have a Labour Party that is genocide complicit and I would also say pedophile adjacent

but genocide complicit even worse. That's a reference to the Jeffrey Epstein story

and Peter Mandels' involvement in it. Just to clarify because I don't want people to take away the wrong idea from that

I'll just read you a message from Edward actually because I hope it sort of makes you smile

He says, It just goes to show, James, that sometimes you really should just be quiet and listen. I don't know what... I thought you'd like that

I don't know what the takeaway is from this for people listening

The idea that you can no longer talk or we should never have talked

about the current Israeli administration, the current Israeli regime, as being an essentially or a plausibly decent regime

that was being polluted and co-opted by toxic characters that Netanyahu needed to keep close

in order to keep himself out of jail, potentially, or in power, more obviously

We should never allow that narrative to take. We've been... That kind of ysis..

You know, I was having conversations with people around dinner tables, you know, in the 90s with that

You know, oh, it's the Israeli party list system. There are kingmakers on the political extremes and that's how their politics is

And, you know, the settlers have to be kept on side. Otherwise, you have a fragile coalition that's prone to collapse

That's old. That argument is 35 years old. We can't keep going around and around

We need a left-wing leader who is strong, who stands up for human rights, who has the strength and the strength of character and personality to take on Trump, to take on Bibi, who isn't afraid to damage the British weapons economy, God forbid, and put human life first

and as Jewish people, my God, we should know this. We shouldn't be, people in the UK shouldn't be supporting this

people who are from my community. How common are you? Go on, sorry

It's because, you know, my grandfather was in Innsbruck Reckonau concentration camp

that I feel passionate about, you know, standing up to genocide. It's not because of him that I'm going to sign on for it

It's the history of our people that screams that we have to stand up against it when we see it

It's a peculiar fascination of mine, the media failing to report on that letter from the ambassadors last week

and not even reporting on it now as they contemplate. burnham doing something that you would obviously consider to be and now everyone listening would

probably agree with you completely inadequate and far too late anyway but how common is your

position among your community if that if that a question you comfortable with um well think Goodness it a difficult one I think the British

This is what happens when I finally interrupt you, Ethan. Yeah, I think the British public are behind, are well behind the rest of..

I think the British Jewish public are well behind the American public

I think young American Jews really recognize that this is, you know, to support the state of Israel as it currently operates is a moral obscenity

And I think that that that force is growing amongst American Jewish youth

But I think a lot of British Jewry still clinging to this idea that somehow this behaviour by the state of Israel is justified

And I think it comes in part from massive ignorance, a massive kind of jingoism, bigotry

And fear. Are people really afraid? You know, when I walk around London, do I feel put upon

You know, Suella Braverman and Nigel Farage and people like that called the marches that we went on hate marches

I went on three of those marches. Three. There was a Jewish bloc in those marches

There was nothing racist that I saw on those marches. not one banner not one sign not one slogan that i heard chanted and i i think the way that that um

peace marches have been characterized um by the chief rabbi in this country and by right-wing

elements uh and by uh seemingly liberal elements like kir starmer who did next to nothing to help

the Palestinian people throughout this travesty. I mean, it's beyond the pale

I've got other questions I'd like to ask you, but I'm seven minutes late for the news

so I can't really. Just one quick one, even though Eleanor is..

What word do you use? Do you use a word instead of settlers when we're having..

I know it seems trivial, but semantics, words matter. You know that as a politics teacher

Yeah. Do you use a different word yourself? I know why you're saying that

it's a great point because they're not settling anything. The land has been lived upon and cultivated and farmed

by Palestinian farmers for decades and decades and decades. At the turn of the 20th century, 90% of Palestine was Arab

So I think the language is wrong. They shouldn't be called settlers

They should be called fascists. They should be called invaders. They should be called criminals

and I appreciate you probably can't say that on radio as a presenter

but that's what I would call them. I would call them... You've told us

Yeah, I would call them what I've listed. Thank you, Ethan. It is seven minutes after 11

James O'Brien on LBC. Hello. The next break's in four minutes' time

That's how badly we crash the news as a consequence of listening to Ethan

which is a call that has prompted an extraordinary response from you

99.9% positive. And of course, as many of you are pointing out

I wouldn't have had to go to the news so late if I hadn't. I get nervous during these conversations

and I think some of the reasons for my nervousness were articulated by Ethan

You know, I am not Jewish. There are things that I am reluctant to say

that somebody with a background like his, and of course until halfway through the conversation I didn't even know what his heritage was

but it is much harder to navigate some of this territory. And the reason I used the word fear during that conversation

was because of that phrase that people do tell me, in good faith, with their whole hearts

Israel is the place that we go to when it starts happening again. And I do think that's a large part of the defense of Netanyahu's regime

that veers into the irrational, or to use a phrase of Ethan's

the genocide adjacent. I do think that's an impossible thing to unravel

Certainly for me it is. And next time I speak to Ethan, remind me to ask him about that

because that's why I use the word fear as opposed to some of the less sympathetic words that he used

I would say accurately. And of course another point about his own background

and his own ethnicity and family is the fact that you have to call him a self-hating Jew

as opposed to anti-Semitic if you want to critique his ysis. That's another reason why the conversations are perhaps so skewed sometimes

and indeed why we didn't even know about, although I suspect he did, a letter from 102 British and French diplomats to their own governments

calling for full sanctions, a full programme of sanctions against Israel. That's 102 diplomats from two countries signing that letter

which only got reported, as far as I can tell, in The Guardian

And yet, here we are, discussing Andy Burnham, potentially introducing a programme of much softer sanctions without any mention whatsoever of what was national news in France earlier this week

13 minutes after 11, that's why the phones are the most important part of this show, because you never know who's going to be on next

Which brings me to the next conversation that we're going to have, which is, well, I was about to say it's altogether less serious

I have one minute to do this introduction, so it's entirely up to you whether we change the format of the programme slightly and come back after the next hydration break with calls

Because it's a fairly straightforward question that I've got for you. What have you done to prepare for emergencies

All right. 03456060973. The British government is stepping up work on a home defence plan

It's drawing up a public information campaign about preparing for an emergency

This against a backdrop of Russian threats, a cyber attack on a UK energy facility thought to be linked to Iran

The simple headline is, Britons are to be told to stock up on food and be prepared for emergencies

I want to find the most prepared listener to this programme. 0345 6060973

I want all levels of preparedness. I don't want you to ring in only if you think that by dint of having built a four-storey cellar under your semi-detached house in Surbiton, you're probably the most prepared person listening to this programme

If you've just bought, like, 20 litres of water and you've kept it in the cellar and you're not quite sure why, I want to hear from you as well

How prepared are you, 0345 6060 973, and why? James O'Brien on LBC

16 minutes after 11. I've got some sympathies for Sasha, who messaged during that hydration break to say

I can't believe James O'Brien just did a monologue in one minute. I now believe in miracles. Problem is, no one's ready for it

You expect me to go round the houses before you ring in. I want you to ring in now, literally now

and tell me how prepared you are. Shall I wait? We could play some sort of emergency alert

There's not a great deal else I can say, right? Financial Times had this story yesterday

The Cabinet Office will lead, and it's going to set out ways that you can prepare for extreme weather events and potential attacks from hostile states

You might want to stock up on bottled water, basic supplies, knowledge about how to cope

And I just want to know how prepared you are. I came home about a year ago

What would it have been about a year ago? And we've got a cellar. It's a wonderful thing, our cellar

It's not as good as next door. Next door cellar goes back to the house that was on the land before we were

It's almost like a wine cellar. It's fantastic. We've got a little cellar

It's a coal hole, effectively. and I went down there for some reason

and I said to Mrs. O'Brien, what's all that water? What's all that water

You know, the big square bottles of water and she'd read something about how important it was

to have some water stored. So she'd ordered it or she'd picked it up from Morrison's

I don't know which. So I think it's still there. We've got about 10 litres of water in the cellar

What good is that going to be to us? And the answer is, well, if the water goes off for two days

quite a lot actually, but then once you start preparing once you start prepping

where do you end? if you're going to start making decisions based upon

what's the word that I want? emergencies then in a sense you can't go too far

which is why we mostly do nothing or we take the mickey out of people

who do it because if we take the mickey out of them then it means we don't actually have to think about

the thing that they're preparing for which we should by rights be frightened of So the government is going to do this

The British government is going to tell British people to stock up on tinned food

and to take steps to ensure that we are prepared for national emergencies

There's a government campaign on the way. You're talking about bottled water. You're talking about tinned food

You're talking about basic supplies and knowledge as well. I don't know what knowledge you'd put on the list

I'd ask you, what knowledge would we need to survive? And this is so that immediate government resources

can be reserved for the most vulnerable. So think about cyber attacks on things like energy sources

Think about extreme weather events, heat or flooding that actually impacts, you know, it affects transport

It can affect anything. It responds or it follows an internal reassessment of government preparations for a military attack by a hostile state

But it speaks directly to what you can do in your home

So that's the question, really, at 19 minutes after 11. I want to know what you've done

I want to know how prepared you are for, it was originally called doomsday prepping, wasn't it

For an emergency. Not for doomsday, because you're not going to survive doomsday

unless you've built some sort of nuclear bunker. But are you already on the case

Have you already taken measures to ensure that you and yours will be able to cope with national emergencies

whether they are weather-based or cyber-based or anything else? and that's really what I want to know

I also want to examine your psychology a little bit. Why are you ahead of the curve on this

What is it that you fear most? And what is it that you've done

in order to ensure that you won't be as badly off as everybody else? I know it's to do with COVID

but why is everyone talking about toilet paper immediately? What did that, what happened there

We're a bunch of idiots, aren't we, really? I'm talking about humans. I'm not being specific to these islands

Where did that come from? Oh, we might run out of toilet paper, so I'll go out and buy 50 rolls of toilet paper

Some people still haven't got through all the toilet paper that they hoarded at the beginning of COVID

Was it a magnificent marketing campaign by Andrax? Or was there actually a reason behind it

We all went out and bought toilet paper. Why, I mean, of all the things that, I don't want to be indelicate

but of all the things that you could probably improvise, I'd have thought toilet paper would be quite high up on the list

unlike many, many other things that you wouldn't be able to improvise at all. But anyway, there it is

We're looking at the threat of flooding, the inadequacy of government planning

the fact that we have never really considered ourselves to be at risk of anything serious

and therefore we've never really done anything about it. You could have a Russian attack on NATO countries within four years

That's what Keir Starmer warned about based on Western intelligence assessments. You've got the very recent experience of what extreme weather can do to all of us

You've got the wildfires last bit. I mean, there's an example. I don't know what prepping you could do to cope with a wildfire

but it would be some sort of emergency grab bag, wouldn't it? I read a lot of spy fiction

Most spies have got what they call a go bag. Well, Lucy talks about a go bag, doesn't she

Lucy Eastope, who writes about this. She's an emergency responder. You have a grab bag or a go bag

And therefore, if... I mean, I'll tell you something. I was in Kidderminster at the weekend

my sister could see and smell the smoke from Stourbridge. I think of Stourbridge as being quite far away from Kidderminster

It's technically not, as the crow flies. But when my sister told me that from her bedroom window in Kiddies

she could see the smoke, and because she'd left her window open, she could smell it

And the local WhatsApp group was swapping details and updates on what was going on

It brought it home to me in a way that actually watching the news, Even with that town, I recognised that I grew up nearby

and getting a message off my mate saying, next door's gone. Even then, it didn't quite resonate with me

in the way that it did when my sister told me I could see the smoke from my bedroom window

I could smell the smoke as I left my window open and the local WhatsApp was tracking the fire

because there's quite a lot of woodland in between where my mum is and where Stourbridge is

and they were genuinely concerned that the fire might catch and spread

and head towards our neck of the woods. Literally neck of the woods, actually

A grab bag, you're quite right, Sam, is mostly cheesy what's-its. It's a go bag that I'm talking about

not a grab bag. And when it kind of comes knocking on your own door like that

you begin to feel a bit silly about thinking it was silly. What would you do

I don't know what prepping would involve for wildfires except to have a go bag and maybe a plan, a plan B

have you i mean should we have responded more urgently to that what are you going to be able

to do here's the fire i can see it on the horizon flipping out number 17's gone we're going to have

to get out of the house what are we going to take never given it a moment's thought before

well my mum's little community has started thinking about where we take the wills and

the passports and and it's ready to go i mean that's nuts right but that's prepping oh three

0345 6060973. Phone lines are open. Sam's in Sevenoaks. Sam, what would you like to say

Hi, James. Early this year, I published a book called Sustainability in the Built Environment

And over the summer, I have bought 3,000 litres worth of water storage capacity and two extra water butts for my garden

So you're storing rainwater? I'm storing rainwater. I'll tell you why. because we're only a dry winter and another dry summer

away from very, very serious water shortages. It's not going to take much

And the key difference between 2026 and 1976 is the antecedent conditions

There's a word for you, antecedent conditions. The dry winter we had over 1975 and 76 We had a very wet winter in 25 26 That why this summer has been relatively easygoing despite the inconvenience of the water pipe ban

So the reason I'm collecting water is really so that I can grow my own food. In the event of food no longer being easily available in shops

At some point in the next 10, 15, 20 years, it doesn't matter

I want to be able to be dependent, not just not being available

So even if there isn't a national emergency, you want to be self-sustaining anyway

Well, not completely sustaining, but at least reduce my reliance on the industrial food supply chain that we have with our supermarkets

And be self-reliant. So that's the main rationale, main water capture. Have you always been like this

Or did you have a sort of road to Damascus moment? it's really been a prediction that this summer

it's not great I'm going to try and get you on a better

phone line, I'm just looking at your book actually sustainability in the

built environment and the efforts you've made to yse how real estate intersects

with carbon neutrality and again it feels like a conversation that we should have been having 10 years ago but

I would defend it by saying better late than never Jerry's in Glasgow, Jerry what have you done

It's Jez Is it? Yeah, it's Jez And I'm in Perthshire, rural Perthshire

Well, this has gone well No, no problem, James You don't always get it right

I dare you, Jez You should write a book on that Come on then, tell me about preparedness

Well, I moved up, I'm from the Midlands Yeah, I can tell that

Moved up to Perthshire via Edinburgh With my wife, who's Scottish Yeah, we bought a plot of land with an old property

put a polytunnel on, acre of land, grow our veg, six chickens

I built a big workshop, south-facing roof. I'm going to get solar panels

How much of this is like, Sam, a kind of broader commitment to sustainability

and how much of it is born of worries about events? Ah, that's the big question

A bit of both. I guess I'm the type of person that I always wanted to read between the lines growing up

You know, are they really telling us the truth of politicians? Because if we look at what happened at COP26, what changes has it done

What has really happened since the Paris Agreement? Very little. And yet, I mean, our government, as much as it talks the talk, actions speak louder than words, James

We are where we are right now. There's fires everywhere in Europe. and I don't want to be, you know, people running around

worrying about what's going to happen next summer, but we're not going to go back to normality, James

Things aren't going to get better. You mean the weather and the system that we live under

is not equipped to cope with what we have witnessed this summer

and what we are going to witness in the future will be more and worse of this

Yeah. Well, you read that there's plenty of books out there, James. So you've gone off-grid then

because, you know, I mean, historically, there's a tendency to mock people like you, isn't there

Because we use words like off-grid or you talk about getting out of the matrix

or whatever it may be. And, I mean, governments do not tell us everything

but I don't believe that they're embarked on some sort of mass programme of misinformation or reprogramming

But it may well be that they're not telling us the sheer scale of the risk because the country wouldn't cope with the consequences

of our human responses to that. But you, I mean, you've got a polytunnel and chickens

I mean, I suppose what I'm suggesting is, how many chickens have you got

Only six. We've got, unfortunately, up in Persia, we've got polecats, pine martins

and the pine martins have taken two of our chickens. Well, I just... I've never said that just happened in the last one

I'm sorry to hear that. That's horrible. Yeah, I'm sorry to that

R.I.P. Gertrude. Thoughts and prayers. But... Hang on, hang on. I'm trying to..

I've got a lot to say on this. Fine, and I want to hear it all, but I'm trying to be diplomatic

because I'm running through what you've told me. You've got a polytunnel and six chickens

I'll give you a week. I'm not claiming to be self-sufficient. No, I know, but I'm saying..

You would need acres of land. But what are you prepared for? What are you prepared for

Just, well, first of all, my wife and I, my wife went and studied

Cat Danny Wells, Centre for Alternative Technology, Eco Buildings and all that

So this is the first thing we want to do. Yes. We want to be sustainable, low impact, all of those things

So it just comes natural. If we can produce, we have chickens that produce eggs

We sell some of them at the bottom of the driveway. We grow vegetables during lockdown

Our neighbours were buying our vegetables. But what are you prepared for? Well, for one, the climate change

But I don't know that you are. Well, OK. Don't get cross with me

I'm just, don't get cross with me. I'm not cross with you. I don't normally come on the radio and talk about this stuff

so it's just nervous energy. Well, I've got loads of nervous energy. I've got nervous energy to spare

I suppose what you're nudging me towards is the thing I failed to articulate in my super short introduction

which is that once you start, you can't stop because if you're really preparing for some sort of apocalypse

then nothing's going to be... You can't be too prepared. It's not the apocalypse, James

What is it? I'll tell you what it is. And as we speak, there are really only four main seed suppliers in the world, not just in the UK, in the world

Never used to be the case. We are now, younger people are looking at regenerative farming, which is the future

It's the way to go. We've had permaculture and there's enough information out there for people to take this up

The problem being, like in China, for example, people have moved from rural locations into the cities

so there's more population. It's not easy to do. Big farms have taken over

Big farming, because the supermarkets have pushed that, all the small regenerative farmers have gone

This isn't prepping. I haven't interrupted you yet because it's interesting and it's activism, but it's not prepping

Yeah, it's a bigger picture. It's not prepping, though. We need to return to regenerative farming

small farming, community-based farming. That is the first point. Yes, I'm late for the news now

People need to take ownership of their sovereignty, which is another argument altogether

Well, exactly. We're doing loads of other arguments altogether. What are you prepping for

Is it a sort of form of economic collapse? No. Economic shock

It's for, simply put, so that my wife and I and my family and my friends

can be able to have a better quality of life. That's what it is

Because we are not going to get cheaper electricity. But you're not prepping, are you

I mean, I'm only cross because that's what the phone-in is about. You're not prepping

You're basically Tom and Barbara Good in the 21st century good life. Allow me to put my point across

I have. It's 11.32. Very, very briefly then. Well, one sentence. If we've got Chinese solar panels..

No, listen. If we've got Chinese solar panels, we got 100 square metres of solar panels a 45 battery system I off and it not expensive But what are you preparing for Huh

Huh? Just so I can have a cheaper lifestyle. Yeah, I know. There we got there in the end

That's not what I'm asking about. I'm not saying give me a ring with your money-saving tips. I'm saying what are you prepping for

The story is about Britain's being told to stock up on food and be prepared for emergencies

But I really enjoy talking to you, Jez, and I look forward to finding out more about your lifestyle. Here's Dominic Ellis with the headline

James O'Brien on LBC. It's 11.35 and I don't think it's unfair of me

to ask what you're actually preparing for because the story that we're discussing is contingent upon

the government preparing to tell us, and that means you. This isn't just some story about other people

You need to stock up on tinned food and take steps to ensure that you are prepared

for national emergencies. So yes, climate change is real. and it will involve lifestyle changes

and self-sufficiency and sustainability will become ever more attractive as traditional food supply chains

and sort of meteorological phenomena change. But it's not what you might describe as a national emergency

It's an incremental unfolding catastrophe. But that's not what you're being told to prepare for

You're being told to prepare for a moment of emergency. And I want to know how prepared you are

I don't think... It's not about being prepared for the apocalypse, says Anthony

Let's remove that word from the conversation, all right? I'm sorry I said apocalypse. It's about being prepared for the massive economic shock

we are all about to suffer. I don't think it is. It's about being prepared for the taps not working

because there's been a cyber attack upon a water treatment plant. It's about being prepared for the shops not opening

or not having any food in them if they do because there's been some sort of either military or cyber attack

on crucial fulfilment centres and supply chain hubs. It's about being prepared for an emergency

And I want to know what you've already done. Zombies. Everyone's telling me zombies and toilet paper

Do you know what this hour is? This is the zombies and toilet paper hour on LBC

This is why I don't look at my messages anymore, except during hydration breaks. If I was being distracted by my messages

all I'd be talking about is zombies. and why did we hoard toilet paper

And of course your local council doesn't have a plan in place to deal with a zombie apocalypse

This is about real emergencies and your preparations for them. 0345 6060 973

Stop making me feel like a schoolteacher. We'll talk to Georgie in a moment

After that, or rather at 11.45, Jason Farrell from Sky News will join us

Use that phrase again this week with a very heavy heart that the people who run towards danger

when the rest of us are minded to run away from it, used it in the context of PC Tom Clough and PC Matthew Blade

killed in that crash on the A66, which continues to reverberate the context and the background to that story

But Jason has been with people and quite rare access, in fact

to the police officers who really do rush at speed towards the most dangerous scenarios

the most dangerous things currently unfolding in the capital at any given moment

He's been with the Metropolitan Police's firearms unit and has been with them for months

and has now reported back on what their life is like and in the aftermath of Chris Cabber's killing

talking to people who essentially don't come to work to be sent to prison and charged with murder

It's an extraordinary piece of journalism that Jason will be introducing you to shortly

Before that, Georgie's in Deptford. Georgie, what have you got? Hi, James. How are you doing

I'm all good. Yeah, I'm so glad that you're talking about this, I have to say

Well, hang on. I don't want to be that guy, but are you sure that I'm talking about what you think that I'm talking about

Yeah, I do think so. I mean, my background, I think the guy who was on the phone beforehand

maybe kind of didn't quite get his point across properly. Oh, don't say that. He'll ring back now

Jez, mate, you're brilliant. You're brilliant, Jez. He was great, he was great

But I mean, in terms of my background is climate change. I've got a master's in climate change

I've rung up before actually because I work in a tree planting charity. Planting trees

So my reason for calling in is through the lens of climate change

which I think is really what you're, is a big part of what you're talking about

The things that will happen as a consequence of climate change will be emergencies

Yes, 100%. I mean, what we're talking about is, Well, we live in this world where we are all very dependent on a number of systems

whether it's our water systems, our food systems, our energy systems, our waste systems, whatever it is. Exactly

And through my lens and through what I'm learning and what I've studied, climate change for me is the biggest threat to all of those systems

We're not self-sufficient. We're very dependent. So, and particularly, like we've seen it this summer, but it's, you know, in terms of not just water

but how farmers are going to be dealing with the horrible summit that we've just had

So that's really going to threaten our dependency on those systems. And over the last few weeks, myself and lots of other environmentalists I know

are talking about this more and more, how to be more self-sufficient

And personally, I'm talking to my loved ones, my friends, my family

and it makes me feel a bit crazy sometimes, actually, because I feel like a bit of a tinfoil hat person

But I'm talking to them and warning them because I want to warn them

because I don't know what the next couple of years are going to look like. And I want people to start getting prepared if they are able to

What are you telling them to do? And the thing about tinfoil hats is that they're only comical

until everybody realises that they need a tinfoil hat. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and I feel silly because I've been studying climate change for years

and it's only this summer that I'm seeing the heat wave. Oh, Lord, what chances there for the rest of us

I know, I know. So go on, what are you telling, because I'm going to be one of your loved ones. I hope that's not presumptuous or inappropriate of me

What do I need to do? What are you telling me to do? So myself and my partner just bought a house in Cordon

so we're getting ready to do all the things I'm about to tell you. First thing, and again, this really is imbalanced

because it applies more to people who have the luxury of having a home or having land than it does to people who are in flats

which is a whole other discussion. But if you do have a garden, you need to make as much use of it as possible

First thing you can do is get water butts, and you need to get as many of them as possible

to collect rainwater for that garden. The second thing you need to be doing is..

Is this to make sure that your plants don't die next time you can't water them

This is to make sure that the food that you're going to be growing doesn't die. Got it

You're not going to believe this. I've done that. I've got two butts, and I've ordered four more

Yeah, exactly. That's brilliant. I like big butts. I cannot lie. Carry on, Georgie

I mean, I totally agree and the second thing you're going to be doing

is going to be planting food so you want to be making raised beds

or putting in fruit trees that's what I'm going to put in a couple of apple trees

I've got that as well Great, you're a couple steps ahead We've got two raised beds, Mrs O'Brien uses hers for cut flowers

at the moment, but I reckon come the revolution we'll be sticking beetroot in there

I would be getting your fruits, vegetables and your herbs in there immediately Nice

And the reason why you want to do that immediately is because it takes a while to get used to gardening especially if you new to it And die and you need to test things and it okay It can be a bit intimidating So start now That the second thing I also going to be getting

a cheap little greenhouse, one of those plasticky greenhouses from B&Q so that I can start

planting seeds over the summer, over the winter as well. The next thing you want to do, obviously, if you have

the ability financially or if you're able to get grants, is get solar panels

Yeah. I don't think I can do that. Absolutely. It's a preservation area. Right, well, then..

Could have a little solar farm in the back garden. Go for it. Do it, you might as well

So you see more and more solar panels around, don't you? And you sort of..

Something changes in a society when it goes from... It's just the weirdo at number 47 who's got solar panels

And then suddenly, particularly when you travel by train, you see whole streets where solar panels have been

And you sort of suddenly some... The pendulum has swung and now it's normal. So do it

I mean, it's just actually so practical and all these things are so practical

It's like wartime mentality, which unfortunately we're going to have to go into. But another thing, I'll keep on rattling through the list until you tell me to stop

But another thing, if you're doing anything to do with your gardening, which you should be because you're growing your own food to make sure you have something to eat

is you need to be composting, which means putting all your waste, except for your meat waste, into a compost bin

which goes into a larger compost bin in your garden. My partner is absolutely nuts for composting

I don't want this to turn into a gardening phone in, so I'm going to move you on next. I'll move on to the next one

Next one, storage up long... Food that will last for a long, long time and really good

Beans, yes. Dried beans are better. They'll last for years. I meant dried beans. Oh, sorry

Dried beans, there you go. Flour, white rice, salt... Are you going to do that in Croydon

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Part of this, and I'm not being glib, But part of the problem now is that, I mean, everyone's just going to pile around yours

Do you know what? You shouldn't have told anyone. I'm grateful that you have, but you should have kept it under your hat, Georgie

They're welcome to. And, you know, I've been looking at lots of climate scientists talking about this and how we should prepare

One of it is like the physical stuff to become self-sufficient as possible. The other side of it is community

So I saw one climate scientist, I can't remember who it was, on an interview talking about how you need to know your community

You need to know who on your street is maybe older and going to be struggling and needs more attention

or maybe not as physically able and needs help as well. We discovered this spirit during lockdown, didn't we, actually

Because I was about to be a bit pessimistic then, but we did okay during lockdown when it came to looking after people

and leaving stuff outside people's houses. Imagine lockdown with rations on your food

but instead of being locked in your house, you can actually go around to people and help. You're taking me up to the wire

I want to make sure Jason gets a proper opportunity to share this extraordinary story that he's broken today or filed today to Sky News

And you're doing all of this. I don't want to be that person, but what on earth do you do if you live on the 17th floor of a tower block

Well, this is, I mean, it depends on if you have a balcony. You should definitely be storing food

Get involved with your community garden. That's a huge one. That is a huge one because there are loads of community gardens in London

It's such a silly thing, isn't it, that we've allowed things to swing so far in the other direction

because of all the things that are just self-evidently good to do. Growing and eating your own grub is absolutely basic

It really is. And we're back to the conversation about school food that we were having earlier this week

The Brits are particularly bad at some of this stuff, despite having been, you know, in the days of market gardens

and in the days of allotments. I know people have still got allotments, but goodness me

we didn't... Something's changed in the post-war period. And as Georgie reminds us

the best thing we can probably do big picture on this is start changing it back again

Why risk getting charged for murder is the headline on this piece that we're about to address

Life inside the UK's biggest firearms unit. The journalist who has been undertaking

this extraordinary investigation will join me and, of course, you after this

James O'Brien on LBC. So it was the time, very briefly, this is what I was talking about

This is, I mean, no offence to the people who got in touch with gardening tips, but this is what I was looking for

This is from Steve. James, there are a number of reasons for prepping for a serious immediate emergency

And the most obvious one is hostile action from a hostile state. Go bags are good, but because people pouring onto the roads will jam the system up for responders

the initial advice is to have what you need stored at home and stay there until instructed to leave

At that point, the prepping equipment will sell out and become very overpriced. And that's if people aren't given such a curfew that Amazon, etc. can't deliver

The internet may not be available to research what to do, how to do it and with what. So you either learn it now or you risk not being able to when you really need to

I want Steve on my team. I'm with Steve. That's what I mean

What have you done? I may stay with this conversation. But before that, and that will be after 12 noon

before that, I want to reintroduce you to the home editor over at Sky News, Jason Farrell

who's joined us a few times over the years because he has a knack of filing extraordinary stories

to Sky News, which we can then piggyback on, like, I don't know, seagulls following the trawler

And this is a story that LBC was obviously all over, Jason

Or rather, one of the reasons why you've undertaken this inquiry is because of the shooting of Chris Cabber in September of 2022

and the subsequent ordeal of the police officer who fired that single shot to the head

So we begin effectively, and indeed your report begins, with you on patrol with Trojan One

Um, why on earth did they let you in the car? Good question

Um, in part thanks to your crime correspondent, Andy Hughes, who'd built up a good relationship and was working at Sky at the time

And we, uh, agreed with them that we would give a, you know, a balanced view

We would hear from the CABA campaigners as well. But that it was time to have a bit of scrutiny on what the officers did

how they were trained. Um, and also just to witness firsthand the kind of pressures that they are under

and sitting in the back of Trojan One, which is the vehicle with oversight of all of the firearms operations

in London at any one time. And you see how magnetically drawn it is

to anything dangerous happening in London at any one time. And there's always something happening in London

be it a shooting, a stabbing, an acid attack, someone with a crossbow

and you're literally flying from one point to another and seeing how these teams operate

But the fascinating thing, obviously, was doing that in the light of the fact

that one of their own officers had been charged with murder. And we knew very little about the mood and the feelings within MO19

We knew that many officers, around 300 it was estimated, put their guns down at that time

and it caused problems for the firearms unit. But we'd never really spoken to them or heard from them

So to sit in the back of the vehicle and get their opinions on what that was like

and how they felt was a real eye-opener. Because they wanted to be humanised, I think, perhaps

Yeah, because they are human beings and they are incredible human beings in the sense that

I mean, imagine if you or I went back to our wives and said, look, we've decided as a job what we're going to do

is go with guns to the most dangerous things happening in London

And this was an added... point to that job, which is, and by the way, if we open fire, we might end up being charged with murder

Our names might be made public, and you might be at risk then

because the criminals who we deal with will know who you are. So those were the things that officers were conveying to me

It was, A, the fact that NX-121 had been charged with murder

and he was facing one of the highest charges in the land, but secondly, that he had been identified

identified and that caused particular upset i think that was because as you say it is it's it

makes everybody else identifiable as well and i noticed you don't name him i mean you've had to

in the report and you may do in the course of this conversation because you're a proper journalist and i'm not so i made a point at the beginning of not saying his name live on the radio because

of precisely those concerns well i knew those were the house rules here in your manner yeah i did i

I did, but I do name him in the report because it's part of it

It's part of the story and we go through it and the impact that that has on the officers on the ground

So what they're hoping to achieve is clarity and even perhaps sympathy

Well, I think I'm not sure what they're hoping to achieve. What I was hoping to achieve was an understanding of how they're trained

actually more than anything, on when to make that decision, when to pull the trigger and how they go through that process

and what happens afterwards. What were you most surprised by? What were you most taken aback by

I mean, one of the things that surprised me was statistics on it that we looked into it and in 40,000 operations in 10 years

only 130 shots had been fired by the Met Police, 80 of them at terrorist incidents

50 of them at one terrorist incident alone, that was a London Bridge attack. And actually, very, very few shots are fired over the course of a year, usually less than five a year

Last year, no shots at all fired. So there is, and you do see the levels of restraint

I think the other thing that really surprised me was just how well trained they are in first aid

So a lot of bandaging people, you know, they're much more likely to reach for the kit

the first aid kit in their vehicles than they are their weapons. That's really interesting, isn't it

So they've got oxygen, they've got defibrillators, they've got tourniquets. I think when you were with them and they arrived at the scene of a stabbing

the injured man didn't want the officers to cut off his clothes, but they did so. And then they find a wound under his armpit that could have been very, very serious

And they've got a specialist bandage to deal with that potentially punctured lung immediately

Yeah, and you see them go through that process. And it's interesting, you know, just so you know, as the process of a journalist

it took us ages to get that footage from the Met. They weren't willing to hand it over

And I said, well, why not? You know, you'd think that would be good PR for them

Equally, the footage of the officer who doesn't open fire when he's faced confronting a man with a gun

This is all stuff that we forced out of them rather than they gave us

And this isn't, I will add, this isn't a PR for MO19

We do really look at how well they are scrutinised. Let's have a little listen to a clip of you taking part

in a firearms training simulation. And then we'll hear what some representatives of Chris Cabber's family had to say as well about this report and the broader issues that remain in place

But this is Jason Farrell taking part in a firearms training simulation

If you are familiar with our crime editor, Andy Hughes, there may be a voice in this clip that you recognise

If I fire, a laser hits the screen and where the shot lands changes the outcome of the video

Drop the gun. Did you shoot? Show him. At that point, what was your honest whole belief

was about to happen in that room? That he was about to shoot at least one or more of those people

And that's all based on what you've seen in the room? What I've seen on our way into the room, yeah

It's quite a lot. I don't think that was the right time to do it, and also you have the students in the back

I disagree with you. Was it? So were you saying when he fired, he was in the air

I think it was. No, it wasn't. It wasn't? From what I saw, he was about to..

He had... The gun was in a position where he could, if he pulled the trigger, kill someone

Cool. Nobody can change what you've seen and what you believe in the process, can we? I can't tell you you're wrong, because that's what you think you've seen

But now you put you two in a court of law, and we're saying different stories

I mean, that is an extraordinary illustration of how difficult it is, but also how important that certainty to fire

Is that the phrase? What's the...? Yeah, honestly held belief. Honestly held belief

So, yeah, I mean, obviously Andy was wrong. Yeah, backseat driving. Backseat driving

But no, we have this, and we have the luxury of being able to see it played back and discuss it

which an officer doesn't if they open fire. You know, they have to wait for the court hearing or disciplinary hearing or the inquest

But their defence in a court of law is if it's their honestly held belief that there was a threat to life

then they have the right to open fire. And this is why NX121 was acquitted at his murder trial

And is that also why the misconduct hearing has also been shut

Because the law has changed. Yeah. Very briefly, so he has, it was the case that honestly held belief also had to be reasonable in misconduct hearings

That was decided by the Supreme Court about three years ago so that police could learn from their mistakes

They could learn the reasonableness of their actions. but it was then decided to actually by the Home Office

to go to have the criminal test in misconduct hearings as well

and that has upset the Kaba family and other campaigners who feel that that legal test is now too easy for officers

but it does mean that the process can be streamlined so it doesn't have to take years

For example, W80, another police officer who shot Jermaine Baker, his process took 10 years

to get through all the different processes. So this is one way of kind of streamlining that process

but it has raised questions about the accountability for campaigners. And some of the other people you've spoken to

who have never spoken to the media before, members of NX121's unit, unnamed, obviously

but some of their comments, which you can hear in the report, include we don't get paid any extra to do what we do

Why risk getting charged for murder when you can sit in an office somewhere and get paid the same

there's a sort of constant vigilance in place. And even though they don't discharge their weapons very often

and people get shot incredibly rarely, as you've suggested, every minute of every shift, that's what could happen next

And for some people it was too much. And there was an officer who we were on duty with

who said, I can't do this anymore. And at that time, I don't know what it's like now

but applications to become a firearms officer had halved. And there were people leaving and that officer

that was one of his last patrols. So this is a concern for the Metron Police Commissioner

And I think that's why he wanted to be seen coming out in this piece and defending his officers

And I do challenge him quite robustly on some of the things that have happened But I think there is a feeling and we did a survey as well of police officers there is a feeling amongst the force that if they open fire they won be supported

And that the public may not support them and they may well face prosecution

and that they won't be supported by their senior officers. And I think this is something that the commissioner is trying to get across

that he's got their backs. That's certainly the message that he was giving to me in those interviews

It's an extraordinary report, as you say, a very long time in the making

and also not easy to get a lot of the footage that Sky News viewers will be able to peruse, able to watch

Well, you don't often see these guys from the back of the vehicle

and just go with them and see the operations as they unfold

and you very rarely get to see how they're trained. And people may wonder, should they, for example

be trained to shoot for the arm or shoot for the leg so that it's not fatal

and we get an explanation of why so often actually they do have to shoot for the body

for example, to neutralise threat. So there's lots of different aspects of it. We even get to see them play out a marauding terrorist attack

and see how they handle, you know, that kind of scenario and how they would, for example

triage all the people on the ground. So there's a good in-depth explanation and illustration

of how these officers go through their daily lives and how they're trained to do what they do

Amazing stuff. It'll be running on Sky News again. Nine o'clock tonight. You can see it on YouTube

That's the programme that you want and then available on YouTube as well. Jason Farrell, Home Editor at Sky News

Many thanks indeed for your time today and a big heads up on that nine o'clock broadcast tonight

or, of course, on YouTube at your own convenience. The time now is 12.03

James O'Brien on LBC. Six minutes after 12. I've still got at least one more call

to take on the subject of prepping, But I think Steve has set the bar a little higher than I managed to in my introduction with his description of the roads being too full for us to leave and the people who might be delivering the stuff that we need not being able to deliver it

And even if they could, the prices would rock it. And if the Internet was down, you wouldn't be able to research what to do, how to do it and what to do it with

So you either learn now what being prepared for a proper emergency is or you risk not being able to know what to do when that emergency happens

So I'm not taking that off the board entirely for the next hour, but I do want to do something much simpler with you as well

And I want you just to tell me why Dolly Parton was such an extraordinary woman

Not just a talent, but human being. Country and Westerns never really landed properly in this country

Don't at me about that. You know what I mean by that. I don't think even Jolene topped the charts

And yet there is an enormously committed demographic of people who absolutely love it

In fact, the best way of explaining it really is that if you imagine a scale of 1 to 10

and you are a constant 4 for 50 years, you're never going to top the charts

But you're going to be a heck of a lot more popular and shift a hell of a lot more records than someone who is 10 for a fortnight

You know, like a one-hit wonder or something like that. But country in Western has never fully landed in this country

It is a very, very American genre. We have folk here, which is a different proposition

different but similar. And I suppose alongside Kenny Rogers, probably, but Dolly Parton was one of those transcendent artists

She was one of those artists who could transcend genre. And I just want you to tell me what it was about her

that was so extraordinary. For you, personally, I just want your personal peon

to Dolly Parton. Let's keep it the Ps, shall we, Keith? Let's do all the Ps

Your personal Peein to Parton. 0345 6060 973. You may need to get a new microphone off

before Sheila comes in, but at the moment, I'm looking for your personal Peein to Parton

That's the invitation. Because a lot of people listening will be aware of her

A lot of people won't be aware of the work that she did with literacy

I mean, this is extraordinary. The work that she did in literacy

born of her own semi-literate childhood and a determination to bring books into as many homes as possible

It reached these shores as well. The organisation that she set up, the Imagination Library

would ensure that a child got sent a book. And some of these children would never really have owned anything themselves

nothing physical, nothing material. And a book being such a beautiful thing

being such a sort of window onto countless worlds, it was such a magical thing to do

that we talk a lot about the concept of enough on this programme, don't we

I'm fascinated by it. People who we look at from our own little perspectives

and think, well, they've got more than any person could ever need. Why do they still behave as if they haven't got enough

And there are some obvious examples of that. You might think of Elon Musk or Rupert Murdoch

or somebody who, like a shark, just never stops moving forward despite having accrued more wealth than they could ever reasonably use

and more influence and more power than any human being should ever be able to wield

and yet still they crave more as if there is some chasm inside them

that they think will be filled with acquisition or wealth or approbation or whatever it is

and you know from the outside that these gaps never will be filled

Dolly Parton seems to me, and I hadn't given this a lot of thought before her death was announced yesterday

except when I was learning, actually, about the books charity that she did

Dolly Parton seems to me to be almost the opposite of that

She seems to have achieved beyond her wildest dreams, never stopped wanting to perform

but used her great success for great good. I don't want to sound naive or idealistic

but sometimes a little bit of naivety and idealism can go a long way

She seems to be that very, very rare example of a supremely successful, utterly authentic person

who didn't just transcend the genre that she was famous within, but she transcended popular music itself

in order to leave a much bigger mark on this planet than almost any singer has ever managed to

But beyond that is the issue of personal appeal. Beyond all of that, beyond all of the lists of things

that she's done in life and all of the things that she'd achieved and all of the brilliant one-liners that she had

about how much it costs to look this cheap. And what was the line about being blonde and dumb

Being blonde and dumb. And she said, well, I don't mind it when people call me blonde and dumb

because I know I'm not dumb and I know I'm not blonde. She just had that wonderful ability to turn things upside down

And she wrote extraordinary songs. Legend has it that she wrote Jolene and I Will Always Love You on the same day

Is that right? Is those the two that she is supposed to have written on exactly? I mean, imagine that most people would spend an entire lifetime

dreaming of writing one song with that sort of oomph. Dolly Parton managed to do two on the same day She was a really good actress as well She appeared in a whole bunch of films But what I want to do today I want to go beyond that I fascinated by the philanthropism

Philanthropism. I'm fascinated by the career. Of course I am. I'm fascinated by the Dollywood Foundation

that started in her home county in Tennessee and expanded all the way around the world

And then she had a theme park. I mean, it is almost impossible to conceive

of somebody starting today, ending up doing so much good in so many different fields that she did

Do you know, she even sort of shifted the dial on COVID-19 vaccinations

Dolly gets a dose of her own medicine because she had strongly encouraged everyone

to get vaccinated and indeed donated $1 million. Did you know this

Towards research at the Vanderbilt University Medical Centre to help people get the vaccine

that they wouldn't otherwise have necessarily been able to get. Her donation essentially funded the early stages

of the development of the Moderna vaccine. So, I mean, goodness me, where do you even start

So, for you, personally, in your own words, why did Dolly Parton reach parts

that other performers have not reached and possibly will never reach? That's the question I've got for you

And I'm not an ingenue here. I have a little story about Dolly Parton

that's quite poignant, actually, and quite... Well, it's annoying and sad. But what I'm saying is I get a lot of it

I never saw her live. That's what the story is about, actually. But I'm not sitting here going

well, I never understood that. I can see that she was magnificent. But I want you to describe the magic to me

we don't do this very often when somebody passes away but every now and then the person that passed

that has passed away is of such extraordinary significance and stature that it's worth trying

to work out what it was that they possessed that none of the others do it's not a pejorative or a

criticism of anybody else but i love the word magic and i want you to describe to me what that

what was the absolute magic of Dolly Parton, all right? 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need

You don't need to be an expert. You don't need to be a diehard fan, but I think it might be more interesting if you are

You just need to have a view on what it was about her that reached parts other performers cannot reach

James O'Brien on LBC. It's the time, and everybody is queuing up to pay tribute

Oprah Winfrey, Taylor Swift, the biggest name, Elton John, the biggest names really in the world

But not just because I can't get them on the phone, but also because I'm always more interested really

in what you might call the street-level reaction to somebody than I am in the stratospheric reaction

I want you to tell me what it is, or was, sadly, today, what it was about Dolly Parton

that rendered her such an extraordinary force. And the number you need to do that is 0345 6060 973

17 minutes after 12 is the time. Joe's in Workington. Joe, what made you pick up the... Well, I know what made you pick up the phone

What do you want to say? I just wanted to pay tribute to Dolly, obviously

one of the most wonderful, charismatic people that I've ever met in my life

Really, really beautiful person. When did you meet her? Oh, I've met her several times

I ran, I think, fan club for 25 years. What, the British branch of the Dolly Parton fan club

Yeah, it was called Dolly Partners UK. So we used to let fans know about record releases

and all that sort of thing. I met her, I was on the Paula Grady show on the sofa

interviewing her with Paula Grady. I was on the Graham Norton show, Elton John's Film Company

borrowed my collection and so on. So, yeah, I met her quite a few times. A remarkable lady

Tell me when you first heard her music. I was about eight years old

I'm 57 now. I remember thinking, wow, that song. I tracked down what the album was, I got the album

I've collected anything and everything ever since. Masses of stuff. Probably the biggest collection

I've been told it's one of the biggest in the world. And, yeah, fabulous

Why her? Do you know something? When I met her, on each occasion

when you get taken into the room to me, whether it be the dressing room or the TV studios or whatever

her gaze is on you the whole time that you're speaking to her and she will not look away for it

The royalty could walk in the room and Dolly would not take her gaze from you

until you'd finished talking to her and she'd finished interacting with you

But you didn't know that. You didn't know that when you fell for her, did you

I'm trying to pin down what it was before the personal connection and the personal encounters

Why did she reach parts inside you that no one else had ever reached

or no one else could reach? To be honest with you, some people listen to music for the melody

and other people listen for the words, and it was both. The stories themselves are actually fantastic little stories

and the music they were set to by her, it just was so encapsulated

It was like a magnet. She's such magnetism. That's the only way I can describe it

They are stories, aren't they? Yeah. I mean, all country and Western songs are stories in a way

in a way that I don't think is necessarily true of any other genre. But she left something of herself in all of them, didn't she

She certainly did. And obviously she's got a song that's due to be released that was buried

saying it wouldn't be released until after her death. Oh, really? Only Dolly Hurt has ever heard that, yeah

Of course. and matches the stuff that's been recorded in the past

for a future release posthumously when she goes. I didn't know that. I'm not going to argue with you

I mean, is the fan club still up and running, or did you retire? I retired, but you can go to dollyparton.com

Did she endorse it? I mean, it was a sort of semi-official thing, was it

Yeah, it was. I'll tell you something, our manager, Danny Nozell, big manager in the USA

got in touch with me when we stopped doing it and said he was gutted. No! He really had a lot of time

Really? Yeah, yeah, it was... And Don Warden, our previous manager, thanked us for getting..

She came back into the UK about 2002, after about 10 years

and we got a thank you saying, thanks for stirring up the interest. But we didn't really. She's always been massive, hasn't she

I think... I mean, I don't know. You tell me. I don't... Because there was a little bit of..

I don't know what the word would be. is that she was a bit of a figure of fun for a while

on this side of the Atlantic. I don't know if that was always true or ever true in the United States

And some of the things that brought her to my attention would involve the ease with which she dismissed

that kind of teasing and the brilliant one-liners that she had that speak of her facility with words, doesn't it? Yeah

Well, she always said there's a brain beneath the wig and a heart beneath the boobs

And to be honest, such an astute businesswoman. And she would always say

I look like a woman, but I think like a man, and she really did. Very often she'd be in the boardroom with only her as a female

and she would say to all the guys, right, once you get past the chest and all the gourd

take me seriously, because I am serious. Tell me about the first time you met her

the first time you were in the same room as her. I was taken by a publicist to the Dominion Theatre in London

to the dressing room, and I walked in, and there was Dolly and her personal assistant, Judy

and a massive entourage behind her and I was with a friend who was crying and he said I can speak And I thought well I going to speak because it my one and only chance But since then I conversed with her quite a few times since

Yeah, it was magical. As you said before, the word magical, it truly was

And for people who don't know, the stuff with the books, the stuff for the children with the books

I remember reading that and I remember thinking, Joe, that can't be true

It can't be that big, an operation. it can't be as big as I'm reading about today

Yeah, worldwide, yeah. Where do you think that came from? It came from the fact that a dad put the idea into her head

He could never read or write properly. He never got the opportunity to read or write. And she carried on with his idea and it just grew and grew and grew

And every child that wanted a book could get a book as a consequence of her philanthropy. Yeah

Amazing, isn't it, really? And I tell you what another amazing story is

that not a lot of people do know that Elvis Presley wanted to record

I Will Always Love You. I heard that once. I didn't know it was true. Yeah, it was very true, and he asked for it, and she said yes

but when she got to the studio, it was Colonel Tom, who was his then manager, said he would only allow him to record it

if he owned half the publishing rights. Are you serious? Ah, and she said, no way. No way, Jose

I love that. I've got one for you. You probably know all of the stories, but this one popped up on my feed today

because he's from my neck of the woods, Robert Plant, the lead singer of Led Zeppelin

when she wanted to record Stairway... Do you know this story? Oh, yeah. She wanted to record Stairway to Heaven

so she got a message to Robert Plant saying, do you mind if I write another verse? And he said, of course you can. You're Dolly Parton

Have you heard it? No. Is it good? Oh, man. It's exceptional. Is it really? Well, we might dig that out then

before the end of the programme. I don't think anyone else would have played that track today. And there's quite a crescendo at the end where you think

God, that's really strong. And of course, about two, three years ago

she did a massive rock album with all the different rock artists. You know, Debbie, Harry and everybody

Can't imagine anyone saying no to her, can you, really? No, well, you don't, because when you're talking to her

she's just so genuine and so sincere, you know. I mean, where do you think that came

Do you think she was like that when she was 14? Do you think she is just one of those people

that has somehow managed to hang on to something very pure and very special

despite all of the trials and tribulations of existence and adulthood and all the rest of it

I mean, I don't want to sound like I'm... Not that you would ever criticise anybody

for over-egging the pudding, but I do think that that line about her

achieving things and reaching parts that nobody else has ever reached actually holds true

It's one of them rare stories, isn't it, where somebody says, as a kid, I think I might be a star

and everybody would say to her, oh, yeah, okay, but she ended up being that star

because of the determination. And she keeps herself away from... I mean, there's lots of stories circulating all the time

about, you know, that she's really a man in disguise. Really? I wasn't aware of that

Yeah, there's another one going around that she's involved in ritualistic sacrificing of children

and all this crap. Oh, for heaven's sake. And she just kept herself completely away from that

And because she was so self-deprecating, she just made a joke out of it, really

Yeah. You know, she wrote a song which was never really released. It was performed in one of her shows called

Queen of the Sleazy Tabloids. That's quite a good song. Oh, I love that

I'm going to tell you something I haven't told anyone else before. I'm gutted about this in retrospect

and I was pretty gutted at the time. And I got a phone call a few years

When was she last at the O2? When was she last in London? Well, she was last here in 2014

She was doing the Glastonbury Festival. That would be... Was that her last performance in the UK

Yeah. That must have been then, then. Just before that, she was at the O2 doing the tour

Yeah, so it's going back that far. It's quite a long time. I was in Norfolk for the weekend

so I'm like four or five hours outside London, and I get a phone call from work

which doesn't normally happen at the weekend. If it was happening at the weekend, it normally meant that I was in trouble

or something bad was going to happen. And it's my boss, and he's saying it's a Saturday

and my boss is saying, look, this is a bit weird, but Dolly Parton's manager has been trying to get a hold of you

And that would probably be Danny Nazal, would it, if it was 2014? And I said, yeah, whatever

I'm thinking it's not April Fool's Day or whatever's going on there. And he said, yeah, they want to invite you to the concert tonight

Because they were in the car on the way from Heathrow yesterday and they heard your radio show and they want to invite you to the car

Now, I don't know. In my head, you know what I'm like, Joe, I'd print the legend and say that it was Dolly definite

I don't know whether she was in the car or not. It might just have been the manager, but that's how close I got to being in her presence

in ways that you did several times. I bet you kick your... Do you know, I've been to every concert

I invited front row seats at every concert. I was lucky enough to do that. And it's just the stage presence and, oh, the aura

It's just electric. It really is. I'm too old for it now, though. I couldn't trail around London like I used to

to all the concerts and stuff. It's going to leave a big hole in your life. Yeah, I don't think it tipped me yet

because it came up on Facebook yesterday and you know how you get all these

AI things and I thought nah and then it twigged, I thought no that's

Dolly's official page and I know her nephew who made the announcement and I thought it's definitely him

so yeah it was so rapid and so sudden but of course she's been poorly

for a little while so you know yeah, I hope you do get

well, I hope you do, I'm going to say well you might get to see her in concert, I'll tell you why

I don't know if this is official knowledge yet, but you know like the ABBA concerts

They're doing some avatar work on Dolly. And she would have been across that, wouldn't she, herself

She'd have been across all of the contractual ramifications and all of the deals and the fine print and the details

Oh, you're a star. I'll definitely go if there is one. I bet you will. I'll definitely go and see it

I bet you will. Joe, we do a thing on the programme, I don't know if you're aware of it

when we take a call from somebody who was supremely qualified to contribute to the conversation that..

I do know, yeah. I listen to LBC every day. Well, there we go. So you are Joe Skelly

and you were the man who ran Dolly Parton's fan club for 25 years in this country

and you got to meet her more times than probably anyone else in the country

Been very lucky. I got lots of photographs with her and it's been a ball, mate

It really has. You definitely deserve this. I'm Ray Liotta and you're listening

to James O'Brien on LBC. If you build it, they will come

Top man. All right. Nice one. Mind how you go. Seriously. It's coming up to 12.29

You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. On a rather different note

I have a guest for you in the next segment of the programme who is hopefully going to help us unravel

some of the questions thrown up by Donald Trump's latest announcement that Iran is doomed

I mean, if you haven't been following this in recent weeks, nothing's changed. Depending on what day of the week it is

Iran has either been completely eradicated as a threat. They're either about to be completely eradicated as a threat

They're either poised to sign a wonderful peace deal, the likes of which has never been seen before, or they are about to be punished for refusing to sign a peace deal

Negotiations are going brilliantly or negotiations never even started. I cannot exaggerate how difficult it is when you do what I do for a living to adopt a normal approach to this story

So God knows what it's like for the Iran experts or the traditional historic Middle Easter watchers

but the Strait of Hormuz continues to send reverberations around the world

and despite the fact that his depraved idiocy is now visible from space

Donald Trump is still in charge of what happens next. So I thought that we'd get somebody from the, well, a US-based think tank called the Middle East Institute

to talk us through what Donald Trump is up to now and what the likelihood of success

if we can even define what success might be. You are listening to J.Zo Bryan on LBC

I've got room for more tributes, if you like, or commemorations of Dolly Parton

Don't think that you need to be as well qualified as Ray. Yours could be a much more ordinary relationship

ordinary encounter. I don't know that anybody will have a story that was quite as secondhand as mine

but there it is. It was among the first things I thought of yesterday when the news broke

And I haven't actually given up on the prepping question either, the things that you have done early

because the government is about to urge you to stock up on food and be prepared for emergencies

and you're sitting there going, ha, ha, ha, I think you'll find I already have. Time now is half past 12

Matt Hewitt is here with your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC. 33 minutes after 12

you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I've shared with you, I hope it doesn't bore you rigid

on a few occasions how frustrating it is to be unable to pretend that Donald Trump is a normal politician

but to be simultaneously unable to ignore him he is the President of the United States of America

and therefore when he speaks, the world pays attention and if he turns out to contradict what he said on Monday

at 10 o'clock on a Tuesday then that's the bit where we still haven't really worked out

what it is that we should be doing in these circumstances. The Washington Post tried during the first term

and ended up with, I think, 30-odd thousand examples of him lying. But, of course, next time he opens his mouth

you cannot work on the presumption that he will not be telling the truth

So I want to find out more about what has been dubbed

Operation Economic Outcast, launched on Monday. You could be forgiven for missing it

because it is the latest recycling of threats, this one to fully isolate Iran from the global economy

and the financial system with his Treasury Secretary. Scott Besson saying, our objective is to sever every economic lifeline

that sustains the tyrannical regime until Tehran stands alone. Ross Harrison is a senior fellow

at the US-based think tank, the Middle East Institute, and indeed the author of the book

decoding Iran's foreign policy. And he joins me now. Should we begin, Ross, with feasibility

I mean, I presume that the United States of America is capable of fully isolating Iran from the global economy

and the financial system. Am I right to presume that? Well, you're right, James, that the United States

has the ability to inflict considerable economic damage on Iran. But I think it's important to understand that to some degree

that weapon that we've had had depreciated over time. And the reason for that is the United States

has used that weapon against Iran in some fashion or another since the Iranian revolution almost

and certainly since Donald Trump in 2018 walked away from the Iran nuclear deal and imposed or

reimposed punishing sanctions. So the idea was that by imposing sanctions and putting pressure

on Iran, two things might happen. Number one, that the regime might capitulate to US demand

something that's unlikely to happen. And number two, that the Iranian people feeling the pressure

would rise up against the regime. Again, unlikely to happen. So you are, I think you used the word

recycle. We are trying to recycle an old strategy that has not delivered the desired results now and

is unlikely, as of yet, and is unlikely to do it in the future. And how calibrated is the

Iranian economy to resistance of sanctions? Because, you know, in the context of what you've

just told us, I presume that they are almost wired to resist American. Yeah, the regime has been

wired for this kind of warfare, both the military warfare and the economic warfare, for a number of

decades now, which is why the regime has been able to survive. I think it's also important to say that

yes, the Iranian economy is wired this way, but we don't know exactly what kind of damage is being

done in terms of economic output on Iran because we're still in wartime. But the other thing I

think, James, is important to say is that they're talking about strangling Iran, but there's one

piece of that that is missing. And that is that the State Department, the Treasury Department

the Treasury or the White House has singled out China. And China is Iran's single biggest

trading partner, particularly when it comes to oil. So they use this hyperbolic language

but in reality a lot of it is bravado. It's important, as you indicated earlier

it's important to take the word seriously but it's also important to look behind the scenes

and say what is real and what's not real, particularly at this point in time

So, Beijing already threatening to retaliate if China is affected by these new sanctions

and saying, the foreign ministry spokesman, you'll know this but my listeners may not

that China's ties with Iran should not be interfered with or undermined

So if you've got the two greatest powers on the planet, one of them is threatening to cut you off entirely from the world economy

and the other one is saying, well, hang on a minute, we are a crucial ally of these people

Who going to prevail There no earthly way China are going to sit by and let America do what they threatening to do Well remember part of this is a distraction James because the reality is that there not going to be

that much trade until the trade of Hormuz is normalized in some way

Because there are workarounds in terms of shipping oil different places, but bottom line is that much of the oil

that's going towards China does come through, some of it comes through the Babil Mendeb

particularly that that's bought from Saudi Arabia, but much of it from Iran comes to the Strait of Hormuz. So until the Strait of Hormuz is open

and then that requires two things. One, it requires the U.S. to release the blockade

and the second one, it requires the Iranians to open up the Strait of Hormuz itself

So some of this is a lot of posturing and positioning, because regardless of economic

sanctions, non-economic sanctions, sanctions against China, secondary sanctions, it's a bit of a distraction at this point

A lot of bravado. What's going to require... The Strait of Hormuz is the key linchpin

in this conflict right now. It was open before the war. It's now..

It's a symptom or a byproduct of the war. And that's what has to happen

in order to end this crisis at this point. I mean, I sometimes have to check

Goodness knows what it's like for you. Because I'm a generalist. You're a specialist

I sometimes have to check that I wasn't imagining things. It's only in June that the Memorandum of Understanding

for ending the entire war was signed in Paris after Donald Trump had spent weeks arguing that it was close

I think, unless I had a fever dream last night, Ross, I think yesterday I saw claims that every single explosive device

in the Strait of Hormuz had been successfully removed or successfully diffused

How do you keep... I think you're hallucinating. You are having dreams

No, I'm just joking. Don't do that to me. No, listen, you raise a very good point

Yes, the U.S. did say that all the mines, the strain has been demined

I have no way to confirm or deny that. I can tell you that you raise the membrane of understanding

That is what's being fought over because there was an understanding. And the understanding was that Iran would, with the help of Oman, would work to open up the Strait of Hormuz

The blockade would be ending and they would open up the Strait of Ramos. What the U.S. did to circumvent the Iranian leverage that was created through that or reflected in that document was to get ships to hug the Omani coast, the southern coast, to circumvent the Iranians

That then showed the Iranians that their leverage had been was being compromised and being challenged

And so they started escalating. And so we are fighting in a way over that memorandum of understanding

And frankly, I know we don't have much time, but one of the things I must say is the Iranians are not going to let the status quo continue

Their belief is that their leverage is an asset that will depreciate over time

And ultimately, if the status quo continues and there's no way out, my sense is that they will probably escalate

And what would that look like? That will look like probably a calibrated response

But if it does happen, it'll be further attacks on the Gulf Arab states. and that will require US action

and then that will be back in this sort of escalation trap. But the Iranians would rather have that

and take that risk rather than lose leverage and then come to a situation where the conflict kind of attenuates

but now six months from now, a year from now, the Americans, the Israelis come back

So they're willing to escalate to bring things to a head rather than let the current situation languish

Good Lord. We've got three more minutes if you have. And I'd like to take you back, if I may, to the beginning and your initial reaction to the news when you heard or read that the US and Israel had launched these attacks upon Iran and where the Strait of Hormuz appeared and how quickly it appeared in your thinking of what was likely to unfold

well you know about a week or two before the war started um i was interviewed by le monde in paris

which was then published and basically i said that if the war starts two things are not going to

happen or one thing is not going to happen that the regime is not going to collapse because it's

built uh for it's it was built for this kind of a conflict and number two if iran feels that it has

under existential threat, it will do two things. It will close the Strait of Hormuz

and it will wage attacks on its Gulf Arab neighbours. Something it will do reluctantly

but it will do that. So everything that has happened, James, was knowable before the war

Well, why, I mean, how do you account for the failure, the intelligence failure in the White House then

It wasn't an intelligence failure. What was it? It was a policy failure. It's a policy failure

The intelligence was there. The head of the CIA, when Benjamin Netanyahu came to Washington

and sat in this unprecedentedly, unprecedentedly sat in the Situation Room of the White House on February 11th

he basically made the case for war. And the intelligence community basically said

that the predictions that Netanyahu were making were false and unlikely. So this was not an intelligence failure

It was a policy failure, a failure on the leadership of the United States. They're thinking that they could defy gravity almost

I mean, political gravity, military gravity, really. I feel like the events are upending my gravity as well

Now we're almost into the seventh month of this war. Absolutely insane. And this is not a fair question to ask you, but it will be my last one

How do you think it ends? How do I think it ends

I think there's only a couple of ways it can end. One is which is probably one of the worst scenarios is that this sort of attenuates into kind of a no peace no war situation And that a horrible situation because you don have any kind of resolution at that point on the Strait of Hormuz You have the potential for further

conflict when the U.S. rearms and Israel rearms and something happens. So it could attenuate and

lead into some kind of a sort of ambiguous situation. The other way can end, which is quite

possible, but seeming right this moment we don't see the pathway is towards some kind of a

negotiated settlement. Listen, negotiations work when both parties believe they have more to gain

at the negotiating table on the battlefield. And the United States clearly does not believe that

to be the case. And frankly, the longer this goes on, Iran also will believe that if it goes

to negotiations now, while it's under siege, that it actually has more to gain by escalating

as I mentioned earlier, than by negotiating. That's the danger we're in. But at some point, you get to a point where both parties say

there's nothing to gain through kinetic action, there's nothing to gain by further economic pressure

and we have to negotiate. And remember, what are we negotiating? We're negotiating an opening of the Strait of War Moos

that was opened before the war. So then you have to get to the point..

No one's even talking about the nuclear issue. No. That's incredible how that drops off the agenda entirely

as the weeks pass, isn't it? I mean, it was... Well, the Israelis won't let that happen over time

But now, in the context of this war, and I know I said that was my last question, but finally, how good was the JCPOA in terms of..

I began by asking you about what was feasible in the context of what is going on

with regards to these sanctions. But how good was the JCPOA, the agreement that Trump torched in term one

Yeah, well, James, it's hard to say because, I mean, I was in support of the JCPOA

The JCPOA was never a sure thing in terms of changing the polarity of Iran, moving into a more cooperative stance

What it was was a bet on the future. It was a bet that if we can find some kind of way to de-escalate on the nuclear issue

And remember, Iran, when the U.S. walked out of that agreement in May of 2018, I was actually with Iranians when this happened

In May of 2018, Iran was living up to the deal. So this was a breach. And your country, the UK, was a signatory to the JCPOA, Germany, France, Great Britain, China and Russia

And so they didn't just walk out on Iran. They walked out on the entire permanent members of the Security Council plus Germany

And it was a bet on the future. It was it was not. And it was working

But in terms of whether it would have been a transformative kind of event, it just was never given a chance

So it was diplomatic. Walking out of that deal was diplomatic malpractice

And I'm glad we end on that note because it kind of brought us to where we are today

Gosh, thank you. That was absolutely brilliant. Ross Harrison, I hope we get to talk again because I now understand things that I didn't think I'd ever understand

let alone the things that I thought I might eventually. You're a senior fellow there at the US-based think tank, the Middle East Institute

and the author of the book Decoding Iran's Foreign Policy. The time now is 12.47

It's going to feel a little bit odd going back to Dolly Parton and prepping, but that's the plan

We've got all the Ps today. It's 12.47. James O'Brien on LBC

We set the tone before we talk to Gareth in Swansea. A couple of things from that message from Steve that reached the parts

that perhaps other contributors hadn't necessarily reached. This is what you need

Go bags are good, James, but because people will be pouring onto the roads, they will jam the system up for responders

So the initial advice will be to stay at home and to have what you need stored at home

for a serious immediate emergency. The most obvious one being a hostile action from a hostile state

At that point, the prepping equipment will sell out and become very overpriced. That's if people aren't given a curfew

which would mean Amazon can't deliver, etc. Not just Amazon. The internet may not be available to research what to do

how to do it and what you're supposed to do it with. So you either learn it now or risk not being able to

when you really need to. And not that long ago, I might have sed at some of that

And I don't know whether I'll s again in six months' time, but something about recent events

means I'm not sing now. I'm not sing at this either, and I'll read it out

Dear James, huge fan of the show, I've been prepping for nuclear Armageddon for many years

I have... What are EDCs? What do we think EDCs are? And a go bag

Also, I've got 72-hour survival bags. My aim is to be invited

into a secret nuclear bunker. I am going to s at that bit that I know of very near me

I have my own YouTube channel teaching other people how to prep

and I currently have 31 subscribers. Those could be the 31 people that survived to repopulate the species

So I ain't sing now. Gareth is in Swansea. Gareth, what made you pick up the phone

Hi, James. Yeah, I just agree with a lot of your callers, and I've been prepping more so starting from this year myself

Really? I think, like you say, with a lot of recent events. I have a son, he's got a chronic illness

so my concern would obviously be around him whether he's able to get medication, a certain amount of calories

that kind of stuff That puts things in perspective, doesn't it? So the rest of us think we'll muddle through

but your boy would literally need to have things in place long before any alarms go off

That concerns me so it's like making sure he's got enough medication

and I've got to be able to cook his food and maintain his calories

I'd need kind of like a power source because he'd need nebulisers

But yeah, so what I've been doing basically since the year began, every time I do a weekly shop, I buy certain things

So gathering water, I've got cooking facilities, I've got a storage unit now

Where, at home? Yes, yes. So I live in a two flat of old people around me Yes And I got kind of two so I just stock in all there So I got military rations and all that kind of stuff for medication

Basically everything that you would need to survive. And have you got a little generator as well then

Yeah, yeah. So I've got a little generator as well. So you reckon you're pretty well equipped now to cope for a couple of weeks

if everything went south. Exactly, that's it. And you've got your boys' medicines as well

Yeah, so because obviously when you get, I get it every month, so obviously you're limited to what you get

so I sometimes have to ration out what I've got just to keep a little bit spare. Of course

Just so I've got, as a backup, should anything. So if the grid went down tomorrow

I'd be self-sufficient for about two to four weeks, roughly, with me and him

This is an incredible conversation to be having, isn't it, really? Because I think, what, five years ago

we probably both would have thought you were bonkers. Yeah, I know. And yet the fact that you're motivated in large part

by your son's needs puts an entirely different complexion on the conversation

What do other people think? That the people sort of, of people's attitudes toward

maybe you don't tell everybody, but you can't hide storage units. What do people think when you tell them

I think it's kind of a 50-50. I think some people agree with me. Some people don't agree with me

because they don't think anything's ever going to happen. I don't necessarily think anything major

I think, you know. No, of course not. but I can't afford to be caught with a pan stone with his care, essentially

You're a great dad, Gareth. Well, it's a really interesting perspective and so powerful as well for anybody minded to be a little bit dismissive

or a little bit sceptical because, you know, the government stuff will not land with everybody

Britain's to be told to stock up on food and be prepared for emergencies but how many people who..

We talked about supply chains being disrupted by Brexit, particularly in the context of medicines

and we did phone-ins about people who were really, really struggling to get hold of stuff

We usually muddle through. Business in particular usually finds a way, like water through cracks

But you want to be ready. You want to be prepared. And the Cabinet Office guidance hasn't even brought yet

medical considerations into it. But we have. It's 12.55. From Prepping to Parton, all the Ps today

Caroline is in Hampstead to share her thoughts on what it was about. I think I found that clip of her singing

the Led Zeppelin classic Stairway to Heaven as well. So we'll probably end with that, Caroline

But before that, what made you pick up the phone? Well, I'm almost quaking with fear now

because I don't qualify like all the fans who've been following her for years

But yesterday when I heard that she had died, it really affected me very strongly

because there are many polished singers, talented composers, and people who do things like starting libraries for people

She did all those things. But for me, in a way, it was, I tried to yze it

she was like switching a light on within me. A lovely thing to say

well it's I mean John Keats had on his poem Grecian beauty is truth

truth beauty and I think that's what she had she somehow lit you up inwardly

like sun coming through clouds as it were and it's difficult to explain it

well not for you you're doing an absolutely brilliant job. What you're describing to me

is like a cocktail of purity and authenticity. Yes, yes, yes. And in

this world that's filled with PR and all the rest of it

and talented people. Of course. Just as talented in each genre as she was

in a way, but it was her inner being, the beauty of her inner being

as I say, like sunshine coming through clouds. You put me in mind of another John Keats line

would you believe? Not from his poems, actually, but from his letters when he wrote to a friend

oh, for a life of sensation rather than of thought. I've thought about that for 30, 40 years

and I think what he meant was you can turn off the chatter in your brain sometimes

and just feel things. And she was the kind of artist that allowed other people to do that

Yes, yes. And that's why yesterday I felt it, well, it was like something beautiful had left the world

Oh, Caroline, how lovely. You're a poet yourself, I think. I'm a writer

There you go. It shines out from you, that facility with words. Thank you so much

It is coming up to 12.58, a little bit of that song that Jo told us about earlier

or that Jo recommended earlier. Not one of her own compositions, but legend has it

that when she asked Robert Plant for permission to record this and said, would you mind if I write another verse

He, the writer of one of the greatest songs of the 20th century, responded by saying, yeah, of course you can, you're Dolly Parton

Or as he would have actually said it, yeah, of course you can, you're Dolly Parton. It's on the 2002 album, Halos and Horns

and I think, I hope, it made precisely the point in song

that Caroline managed to make so powerfully a moment ago in prose

if you missed any of today's show you can listen back on our free global player app or the lbc app

where you can stay up to date with all the latest news videos and opinions you can listen to a range

of podcasts including james o'brien daily which contains the best bits from this show every day

download the official lbc app for free from your app store now uh coming up at four on lbc simon

marks is in for tom swarbrick who's currently in for nick ferrari but now it's time for sheila

fogarty james o'brien on lbc