'Andy Burnham recognises how foolish Brexit was' | James O'Brien - The Whole Show

Let's just pause together for a moment, shall we

Some strange things have happened in recent years. No, not those. Some very strange things have happened in recent years

I don't know when it happened, but it probably had something to do with Boris Johnson

finally cobbling together pretty much exactly the same deal that Theresa May had offered to Parliament

and Boris Johnson had rejected as a key part of getting his hands upon the reins of power

But maybe something happened there. Was that 2019, was it, roughly? End of 2019

And you just sort of thought, oh, well, that's it then. We've done it. We've jumped off a cliff without a parachute

We've got on the wrong train. And I love that Japanese proverb. I don't know that I've ever shared it with you before

But rest assured, I'll be sharing it again in the course of today's programme. If you get on the wrong train

get off at the first station that you can, because otherwise, the journey is going to cost you a heck of a lot more than it needs to

If you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station. The longer you take to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be

But I'm afraid I haven't subscribed to that proverb over the years

Listen, if you're one of the many people that are relatively new to this programme

then just a quick word on how we became a kind of bastion of Brexit reality

in the aftermath of the referendum. I'm not even entirely sure how it happened. It's probably because almost all of the rest of the media, especially commercial media, had signed up for the whole project for reasons that still baffle many

You know, whether you're talking about radio presenters or newspaper columnists, they almost all, all of the ones with a degree of prominence, insisted that it was all going to go brilliantly, even though it was blindingly obvious to anyone with a brain that it was not

And so we became a bit of a bastion of reality and people would ring in

And in their defense, and I mean that sincerely, in their defense, they would parrot the sort of lines that they'd heard from people like Jacob Rees-Mogg or Daniel Hanan or I mean, I can't remember the most, Boris Johnson, I suppose, David Davis

They'd parrot the lines that they'd heard from these people and, of course, their favorite commentators

and I would ask them one or two very simple questions and the entire edifice, the entire argument

would fall apart like a cheap suit. And sometimes perhaps I was a little unkind in my approach

and as the years passed, I tried to be kinder. But the point is that we were a little bit

I don't want to say ahead of the game because I relied on other people's expertise

to explain some of the finer points to me, whether it was the looming difficulties

Difficulties of exporting into continental Europe are things that you needed no paperwork or regulations particularly to export previously

And then, of course, some of the economic questions and the relationship between membership and international trade, all of those things

and the lies about immigration, bizarrely. The fact that people still believe that it was membership of the European Union

that demanded that influx of Eastern European people immediately after accession, and it wasn't because countries like Germany handled things very differently

But it doesn't matter now. I mean, that battle is lost. So you would think, wouldn't you, that we, I

it's not a member of the royal family, that I would be cock-a-hoop today

Finally, we have a Prime Minister who has told the truth. And I wonder whether we were slightly corrupted

by the excessive caution of Keir Starmer. Keir Starmer, in retrospect, and I don't want to do this on a daily basis

but I think in the immediate aftermath of his successor's first conference speech

you cannot but help glance in the rearview mirror as you contemplate the road ahead

And Keir Starmer's excessive caution, you know the way that he conducted his premiership in fear of criticism or in fear of opinion polls

or in fear of the front page of the daily mail when he gave an impression at the very beginning

that he wasn't going to do that meant that he came out with something like we will never rejoin

in my lifetime i don't believe we will ever rejoin in my lifetime and i wonder whether that corrupted

me slightly in that it sort of prompted a subconscious shrug of the shoulders subconsciously

when you hear a Labour prime minister who was a very prominent advocate of the idiocy of leaving

the European Union, you hear a prominent politician like that who has achieved power, the ultimate

power that this country can bestow. And he says, not in my lifetime, I wonder whether there was a

sort of internal shrug. And I just sort of thought, ah, well, oh, that ship has sailed. And then there

are people who do brilliant work in trying to get the ship afloat once again, trying to reflate

float the ship and I would occasionally, I would be caught by their work or their polling

or their efforts and I'd think, yeah, there's no way. Let's say Keir Starmer's got another 30 years on the clock

There's no way we're still going to be out in 30 years' time. It's gravity

It's being on the wrong train. It's common sense. And then the other voice would kick in

and you remember that the whole Brexit project involved denying those three things

We're not on the wrong train at all. We always intended to be going there Just because we bought a ticket for somewhere completely different doesn't mean that we are disappointed to find ourselves heading off in the opposite direction from the one we were promised and the one that we paid for

It's not common sense at all. It's not about common sense. It's all about believing. If you just believe enough, you can entirely defuse the power and the importance of common sense

And don't be ridiculous. It's not gravity. If you believe in Brexit, you can fly

You will be able to fly. So if you'd asked me, and actually you may have done

if you've ever been to any of my live events, if you were to ask me

if you had asked me, what, a year ago, two years ago, five years ago

how do you think the return will begin? Or who do you think will sound the sort of clarion call

to begin the process? I think I would have said to you

I don't know. I don't know. The Tories have no chance of doing this

So I used to have a little fond and mischievous imagining not that long ago that it would be a Tory who broke rank first

It would be a Tory leadership contender, probably one more leader from now or two more leaders

It would be a Tory leadership contender who said, can we all just stop pretending that leaving the European Union was anything other than an absolutely stupid idea

And I don't know whether it would have turbocharged their Tory leadership campaign or whether it would have hold it below the waterline before it even got going

But it's like a breaking of a murder. Leaving the Liberal Democrats out of it

both major parties have used phrases or subscribed to schools of thought

like respecting the will of the people, which is, spoiler alert, stupid

because none of those people voted for what they actually got. They all voted for the things that they told they were going to get

most obviously, I suppose, whether you're an actual racist or not, for reduced immigration

which you were never going to get as a consequence of leaving the European Union

unless you were happy to see the ranks of our employment sector absolutely deserted That was obviously never going to happen but people voted for that Or they voted because they thought they were going to be richer Or they voted because they

thought that somehow we would be able to free ourselves from laws that they were signally

unable to mention, but absolutely convinced were a terrible stranglehold upon their daily existence

It is not the will of the people if the people voted for something completely different from what

they got. So both major parties too frightened of, I don't know, the massed ranks, the gross

alliance of client journalists, plutocrat newspaper owners and half-witted or jingoistic politicians

they were all too frightened to say, and listen, it would have been perhaps electoral suicide to say

it on day one, but they've all been too frightened to say for the best part of 10 years, what a sorry

mess this is, the sooner we can undo it, the better. Take back control, do me a flavour. I mean

that was probably the stupidest slogan in history until it all began to fall apart and they came up

with believe in Brexit instead. And that was the stupidest slogan in history until that began to

fall apart and they came up with let's go WTO. I try sometimes these days to be a little less rude

than I have been over the years, but goodness me, the mutton-headed ignorance of the people

carrying around banners that contained a selection of words which, when put together, meant absolutely

nothing, but they were prepared to sacrifice our economic health upon the altar of their own

stupidity, their own bovine ignorance, absolutely still boggles the mind and drives a coach and

horses through any attempts on my part to be a bit kinder. I spent 10 years doing contempt for

the con men, compassion for the conned, and I meant it, but I don't mean it anymore. If you're

still clinging to that carcass, then I'm afraid you're a fool. At the very best, you're a fool

But I didn't think it was going to happen yet. I really didn't think it was going to happen yet

And I don't know why. I am so surprised that Andy Burnham has gone so far so quickly. And I

certainly don't think anything is guaranteed. And I certainly don't want to engage in any

premature chicken counting, but when you have on the front page of Rupert Murdoch's Times

and remember that although he subsequently denied it, Rupert Murdoch reportedly told

the then city editor of the London Evening Standard that when he goes to Downing Street

they do what he says, but when he goes to Brussels, no one gives a hoot what he

has to say. A large part of the reason why his newspapers came out

passionately opposed to European Union membership, because he has more influence in a country that's cut itself off

from the biggest single market in the world. And when you see on their front page the headline

Burnham raises prospect of a second referendum on Brexit, you have to recognise that for now at least

for now at least, the conversation has changed. The mood has changed

The wind even, perhaps, has changed. And I don't know quite what to make of that at the moment

he went further. He ran through a selection of options. And I should, sitting here today

I think I should be feeling a little bit more excited than I am. And this is one of the

subjects where I hope you'll allow me to adopt a very personal position on the issue. So

why am I not more excited? I mean, this is almost as if Andy Burnham has answered my

personal dreams he is recognizing that we need to get off the train as soon as possible because

we're heading in the wrong direction that doing so is neither straightforward nor easy and and

could involve a variety of different options for most obviously rejoining the customs union

or rejoining the single market or rejoining the eu or some sort of bespoke deal which is possibly

the most likely. You'd look at Switzerland probably as the chance of that, but his words

are unequivocal. He has not ruled out a second referendum, but further than that, he's pointed

out that Brexit has not gone well, and indeed that it was never going to. So I don't want to

do an entire phone-in based upon why I'm not more excited, but I would like to examine that question

by asking you whether you are. It's happened. We have a prime minister who recognises explicitly

the foolishness, the foolhardiness. Stop saying idiocy because you were conned. You didn't know that you were heading towards a cliff edge

You thought you were heading towards a promised land. So the foolhardiness of Brexit

acknowledged, recognised and described by a serving prime minister and a promise, a pledge

an indication of a determination to undo at least parts of it

There it is. It's a completely different conversation. In fact, that little shrug

I described to you 10 minutes ago should be unshrugged now. Is that a verb

Is that a word? Can I use that on crossplay? Unshrug? I don't think you can unshrug, can you

Because a shrug involves an unshrug, right? You shrug your shoulders, it goes up and down. So you can't unshrug your shoulders because a shrug is not a permanent state of affairs

If you unshrug your shoulders, you might fall over. The prime minister is talking about this now as something that he wants to do, recognizes the necessity of doing

And I wonder whether that shrug gets undone because it now becomes plausible and feasible

Whereas the reason why I didn't think it was worth talking about or I didn't feel it was a viable or a realistic prospect

or I didn't feel the burning sense of passion and injustice that many of the brilliant campaigners in this field

have kept the flame burning for a decade now. Best for Britain being probably my favourite of those organisations

I didn't feel the passion that they felt because it didn't seem to me to be worth it

With Keir Starmer in Downing Street and the Tories being the second most likely replacement for them

and Farage, one of the key architects of Brexit and putting Boris Johnson in Downing Street

and telling you that Donald Trump was going to be a brilliant ally to this country and denying climate change and describing Liz Truss as an economic genius

One man has been wrong about everything in the last 10 years. It's him

And he was leading the polls until very recently. So I guess that sense that this might happen never really landed with me

And if I'm completely honest with you, I don't know that it has yet

I'll read you some of Andy Barnum's words and I'll play you some of what he said in his speech

and then I'll ask whether you are feeling it 03456060973 is the number that you need

but before that, focus on the question I mean, it is essentially a question

about how you greet the news how you greet the fact that we have a Prime Minister

who is up for it is keen to get us off this stupid train

James O on LBC A simple enough question about how you greet the news that our Prime Minister wants to undo Brexit either entirely or in part

Have a little listen to what he said during his conference speech the other day

The first Prime Minister to make a break with politics as usual

I believe the plan I have outlined today will not just hold us together

It will allow us to rise again. Britain, to rise again. And we will be a Britain confident of our place in the world

It has changed dramatically since 2016. And in the spirit of this speech, we have to be honest

Brexit hasn't given us control. And a little more

Well, control over immigration was weakened when we lost collaboration with our European

partners and we are still having to work hard to bring it back. Later this year there will

be a UK EU summit where one of the issues on the agenda will be how we best work together

on immigration. Beyond that we will work to secure gains for our British industries most

harmed by Brexit. Conference, these are important concrete steps but they are not enough. I

say this to you and the country, we will not give Britain the clear path we need into the

rest of this century until we decide on a long-term relationship with what is

still our largest market. I cannot say to you truthfully that where we are is good enough. Brexit has

done more harm than good. We need to restore

a higher level of growth and prosperity for Britain. So I will take the opportunity

around the summit to lay out to you, to lay out to the country, what I believe

the different options are for Britain's long-term relationship with our European partners and there are different options and I will see if we can find consensus around one

which will give us clarity about our position and the future of the continent that we live in

And he has in subsequent interviews laid out those four options making it I mean even the

Front page of the telegraph, second Brexit referendum is on the cards

So how do you feel about that? Is it excitement? Is it joy

Is it a sense of trepidation, fear? I honestly struggle to articulate to you today what my feelings are

And sometimes when I find myself in this situation, I can't wait to get the phone lines open. So I should probably do it sooner rather than later

Here is the question. It's happened way ahead of what I expected

The Prime Minister has, as you've just heard, laid out the very simple fact that Brexit has done, in his words, more harm than good

Although I don't think it would have been fair to ask him to list exactly what the goods were that it has brought to us

That undoing it is necessary because our relationship with our largest trading partner remains profoundly suboptimal

And all of this is self-evident. And I don't currently feel any urge to reach for the party poppers

I'd love to talk to you if you do, 03456060973, or if you can simply tell me what your reaction to this moment is

because mine is about one million miles away from what I thought it would be

Steve's in Camberwell to kick things off. Steve, what would you like to say? Good morning, James

I think there's never been a case, I think, an economic case to lead the European Union

and you've explained that many times since 2003. Bored myself, rigid. Yeah, absolutely

But I think the problem is, it appears that there was a democratic case

and we have to deal with the democratic case. I think that Brexit was not a democratic outcome of the referendum

It was kind of hijacking of the referendum and then turning it into a kind of right-wing result

It was a sort of culture war, wasn't it? It was a culture war, but we were persuaded

many people were persuaded some were because they were racist there was all that going on but other people was because

they thought we would as it were take back control of the country and there was a yearning for that. But we never lost it

We never lost that yearning. So we never lost that control. This is the massive

problem and this is actually I haven't shared the polling yet but this is why I'm not as excited as

perhaps I thought I might be because just because liars have been proved to have lied doesn't mean

they wouldn't win next time. No, it doesn't. But I think we have to unpick the question of what we actually voted for in 2016 and what would have been a democratic outcome in 2016. So the first thing is that we never voted to leave the single market or the customs union. They're not the same as the EU. On the ballot paper, it was only the EU

We were told by some of the prominent campaigners that absolutely nobody was talking about leaving the single market

But again, anybody who understood the issue knew that we would have to

because the whole thing was contingent upon the abolition of freedom of movement, and if you don't have freedom of movement, you're not in the single market

Yeah, but again, we didn't vote on freedom of movement. We just voted on whether we're going to be in the EU

All it would really mean was we wouldn't send MPs to the European Parliament, but we would be more like Norway

So we didn't vote for that, although they added it in later when they turned it into a hard Brexit

Again, there were prominent pro-Brexit campaigners who did cite Norway. I think even Farage said that we could be like Norway

Yes, they did. They were trying to do a soft sell. They were doing a soft sell during the campaign

and then when they won, they couldn't believe it, and they turned it into a hard Brexit

That's what happened. So, hang on, hang on, hang on, because we're going to run out of time

and I want to know how you greet this moment, because I probably share almost all of your retrospective yses

We might disagree about how important or relevant it is or how much of this can be unbaked

but how do you greet this moment? Andy Burnham has laid out four possible ways

in which things could be recalibrated, and I'm oddly muted today. I don't really know why

How are you feeling about it? Well, I think any time we have a debate and a discussion

to open it up again is actually a good thing, but I think we've got to..

I want to make just two small points before... You've got to remember that Northern Ireland and Scotland

voted to remain in the European Union and their wishes have been completely ignored

And also, as Rhys Mogg himself said, when the result when the negotiations had finished we should have been given the right to ratify it I don mean a second referendum to have a ratification You still in the rearview mirror

What about the road ahead? How do you greet this moment? Well, I think to go into the road ahead

you've got to look backwards in the rear mirror to see how you're going to overtake something

if you're not looking in the rear mirror. We have to look in the rear mirror because the rear mirror is going to be coming

It's turned into a motoring phone in, Steve. That's never good. That's never good. I did not see that coming

Probably I should have been looking in the rearview mirror, and I would have done, wouldn't I? Well, you've been looking in, James, to be fair, you've been looking in the rearview mirror a lot of times in the debate

But I'm not today. I'm having a different debate today because it's changed. He's actually done the thing that I didn't think a prime minister would do

And he said we could stay as we are. That's an option. We could look at the George Osborne model of joining a customs union

We could look at the Liberal Democrats idea about joining the single market. Or we could go all the way and rejoin. He said it

Keir Starmer said it ain't going to happen in my lifetime. Andy Burnham has said it could happen next Parliament

But the argument that's going to come against you, right, the argument that's going to come from the other side

is that this was a democratic decision taken by the British people to do that

It wasn't, though. Well, exactly. So the argument about whether it was democratic or not

is absolutely crucial if you're going to challenge what the opponents of Brexit are

So you're refusing to conduct a conversation on this paving stone. You are correctly describing a lot of the paving stones

that have brought us to this point, and you are speculating on what the paving stones

in front of us might involve, but you are not telling me whether you're happy or sad

that Andy Burnham has done what he's done in the last 48 hours. I'm pleased. I'm pleased

Right, there we go. I'm pleased that the debate's opening up, but all I'm trying to add into the debate

is to say that we have to unpick the question of what happened in 2000

why it was an anti-democratic, the way it worked out. I'm going to disagree with you

52-48 Steve so I could swing over to your side of the argument but I think that

involves rubbing people's faces in being conned and nobody enjoys having their face

rubbed in being conned I said a while ago that what we should do is just rejoin

and tell everybody that they're allowed to claim that that's what they wanted all along and then you get your

sort of human gristle can just sort of go quiet and they could even start moaning about it again

but just you absolve everybody of the responsibility for driving the coach

off the cliff or for cheering the drivers who drove the coach off the cliff and you want to go

back over it and um it's maybe a little hypocritical of me but you want to go back over it and almost

rejoice in pointing out to them that you were right all along half past 10 is the time i don't

know i don't know half past 10 is the time the number you need oh three four five six oh six oh

nine seven three uh remains the same and dominic ellis has your headlines james o'brien on lbc

35 is the time, and so the clouds begin to clear. My reservations, the reason why I don't know how I feel

are because I don't know that it is doable. And so, obviously, I feel passionately about the stupidity

I shouldn't say that word, the foolhardiness of leaving the European Union. And I could, until relatively recently, muster up epic reserves of empathy

for many of the people who'd been conned, not least because I get to speak to them, you know

I also, historically, have had a very good line of communication with the people who will never admit that they were conned

and who just shift from one nonsense to another, from take back control to believe in Brexit to let's go WTO

to whatever nonsense it is that they're coming out with next. Well, I'll tell you what they're going to come out with next

and it's actually the most logical position that they've ever held. We shouldn't join now because the deal we get won't be as good as the one we had before

Say the people who said that the one we had before was so bad that we should leave the whole operation anyway

I mean, it's madness, but at least there is a sort of logic to that for the first time in all of the previous positions

So the reason why I have reservations is because I'm not convinced that we live in a country that is psychologically ready for this

And by that, I suppose that I mean I think the liars might prevail again

And that's why this particular poll is of such interest, because you probably have seen variations upon the first question that is answered here on rejoining the EU

Do you support it? 55 percent now say yes. Again, a pitifully low number, but unsurprising if you remember who controls 80 to 90 percent of public discourse in this country and oppose rejoining still as high as 34 percent

you make of that what you will on the conditions of single currency

and Schengen membership so you can rejoin but we will have to adopt the euro

and join the Schengen union it's not a full reverse but it's a different answer

35% support and 43% oppose now again if you listen to experts instead of Jacob Rees-Mogen

people those are negotiable Denmark is not in the euro and you can join a customs union like switzerland without being in schengen

they are suboptimal arrangements but if we remain a country defined by jingoism which

spoiler alert sadly we do that's the thing you'd have to do so what i think it might happen and

what perhaps explains my absence of euphoria is it would be the people arguing to remain out who

would become project fear. And when they tell lies, when they sell tickets for the ghost train

it tends to work. So we would once again find ourselves in a position where people in favor

of moving back towards sanity would be selling tickets for the speak your weight machine

dull, but true. And people selling tickets for staying out would be deploying the ghost train

They'd be screaming about, you know, every person in Turkey coming to move here like they did before

They would be screaming about the pound, the king's face being taken off the five pound notes

And so what is the coldly intellectual response to that? But the emotional response is not our king, not on your nelly

So I don't think the country is psychologically ready to get off the train

I would love to be wrong but I think I've just worked out

why I don't feel what many people feel in response to what Andy Burnham

has said. I'm glad he's said it, don't get me wrong, but I don't know yet that

it's time to take all your money off the possibility of it being a

future Tory leadership campaigner who, yeah, it probably is actually. Let's park that

It was never a prediction, it was only ever a mischievous suggestion. Clement is in Annecy in France, an absolutely beautiful town

Clement, what would you like to say? Hi, James. How are you

Very well, thank you. What's on your mind? Yeah, what's on my mind is a little bit of what you just explained

I think that, obviously, I'm quite happy about this. I've got children who want to go back to study in England

I don't want them to be treated as international students because then the fees are becoming you know just unbearable for a normal family

but then at the same time so yeah i'm cheerful enough but then at the same time i fear that

it's just going to give more ammunition to the likes of nigel farage and other people that

are just battling and providing nonsense to the public discourse. So the question, do you think these people, him most prominently

are suddenly going to discover a fondness for the truth and a rejection of provocative lies

In which case, if you do believe that, then I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you. No, I don't think that

I think the population across Western Europe are being manipulated and it seems more and more easily manipulated

whether it's by the far left, the far right, depending on which country you're looking at

Look in ANSI today, secondary school pupils were being manipulated by some political parties and starting to light up fires in the city centre

which, you know, you don't think that would happen in a city like ANSI

No, you certainly don't. And my point about mentioning this is, yeah, I feel that manipulation

and we need to get across this manipulation. But I really don't know, I'm afraid, how to do this, to get back people to..

I don't think it's pessimism. I think it's realism. And to knit together the two themes that you mention

there's only one politician I'm aware of in this country who was objected to Andy Burnham's announced plans

to seek to remove or reduce the amount of Russian-sponsored disinformation in our sort of political ecosystem

and that is Nigel Farage. Now, I'll leave other people to answer the question of why Nigel Farage, whose close friend and protege Nathan Gill

is currently in jail for accepting bribes to promote pro-Kremlin talking points

Why would he be opposed to trying to reduce Russian influence and disruption over our democracy

I think that might be a rhetorical question, but it's real and it works

It's real and it works. And that's the worrying thing. Yeah, exactly that

But maybe we need to be bolder. You need to say, all right, we might not win

but we've got to blooming fight. yeah and that's and that's the kind of the start of what burnham did a couple of days ago and and

what i what i have been doing before leaving the uk in 2022 losing a lot of friendships in the

in the process yeah because because i had friends telling me oh let's go double uto in 2016 and i

i i had to tell them look i i really like you i even love you and i love your family but you are

being massively stupid. Oh, good. You went for the stupid one. Because there's a point at which manipulation..

I went for the stupid, because at some point, you've got to say it

Yeah. Do you know what happened to me? You probably know this

I've told the story about 765 times. I had to sit in a television studio

with Pascal Lamy. Of course. I'm going to tell the story again

I'm going to tell it again. It could not highlight your point more perfectly

that single moment in my life, could it? Seriously. You're talking about stupid

Pascal Lamy, the former director general of the World Trade Organization, and I am interviewing him and somebody else

in a television studio about what it would actually mean to, and Clement's words

and the words that were very popular at the time, go WTO. What would that actually mean

I know. Let's ask the former director general of the World Trade Organization

So I turn to Pascal Lamy and he essentially, if I remember correctly, says

well, there's not really any such thing. And if there was, it would be utterly, utterly hideous

And then, because I was working at the BBC that night, I have to turn to the other studio guest

and ask her what she thinks. The former Director General of the World Trade Organisation

has failed to understand about the way in which the World Trade Organisation works

This, for me, is the essence of Brexit. If I was to be slightly kinder

It's the essence of post-referendum Brexit discourse. Thank you, Pascal, former Director General of the World Trade Organization

for that incredibly detailed and evidence-based ysis of precisely what it is that your organisation

the organisation that you used to lead, does, and what it would mean to, quote

many, many foolish people in this country at the moment, and quotes, WTO

What would that mean? And I have to do this, live in the studio, on the BBC

I have to go, Andrea Leadsom, you disagree. And then we have to listen to Andrea Leadsom

explaining why the former Director General of the World Trade Organization knows less about the World Trade Organization than she does

I'm not even exaggerating for comic effect. I mean, think about that, especially if you voted Leave

or if you were one of Clemens' friends and you were shouting, let's go, WTO, Andrea Leadsom

The environment that had been created by that point, post-referendum, was such that Andrea Leadsom could sit confidently and with a sense of entitlement in a television studio and tell a former director of the World Trade Organization that he knew nothing about how the World Trade Organization functioned

that she, Andrea Leadsom, was the real expert in the room. And I wonder whether the caution of people like Clement and myself

is built upon the fact that I find it all too easy to believe

that we could go back there again. A bit like when the late Nigel Lawson was invited on to the BBC every week

to tell all the climate change scientists why he, the former Chancellor of the Exchequer and journalist

knew a lot more about the science they'd spent their entire lives studying than they did

And we could go back to that again. And if you think Nigel Farage is going to suddenly develop a passion for reality

the truth and honesty, then, well, I've just discovered another bridge that you might like to buy

That's it, isn't it? It's that the country doesn't necessarily feel psychologically ready enough

But does that mean we should crack on anyway? Well, we should wait until we perhaps feel that it's a little bit closer to the light than it currently

I don't know. Clem-on could be wrong. I could be wrong. You could be right. Unless you're Andrea Ledson

James O'Brien on LBC. A really good example of what I am worrying about this morning

So this polling, it's from June. It may change now that Andy Burnham has kind of blown a whistle

But support for rejoining the European Union turns into opposition when you include joining the single currency, the euro, and joining Schengen, which, of course, neither of which we were in before

Schengen is often regarded as a kind of proxy for freedom of movement

It's not quite that. And, of course, the ongoing Northern Ireland situation would make it pretty tricky for us to be, to have that, to do that, even if we wanted to

and, I don't know, Northern Ireland didn't. There are difficulties there, but it is generally regarded as a proxy

for freedom of movement, Schengen. It's not because we had freedom of movement before

and we weren't in Schengen. We could still control our borders. And, jeez, I mean, what a thing to sort of say in 2026

We could still control our borders when we were in the European Union

because we weren't in Schengen. And if you want to get really flipping technical you could still do it if you were in Schengen in exceptional circumstances You could still suspend systems in the event of crimes and things like that But we could quotes control

our borders because we weren't in Schengen. But the liars and the racists argued endlessly that

we couldn't control our borders. And here we are. So that's reason number one, which I didn't even

know was coming around the corner, to think that this isn't going to be quite as straightforward as some people believe. But here's a much more technical reason that you may not even know

I only discovered it yesterday. So all, pretty much all, Central and Eastern European countries

are now net importers of labor, right? So there is more people moving into them to work than moving

out. And one of the most extraordinary things that's happened in the last 10 years, although

again, if you were paying attention, you would have seen it coming, is that they have converged

with the average incomes across the EU. So you no longer have a European Union

where the wages in one country make people living in other member countries

go green with envy or get their passport out of the bedroom drawer

and hop over to the other country to start earning. It just doesn't apply anymore

The average incomes have converged upon the EU average from the kind of countries that everybody..

That Nigel Farage was telling you to be frightened about 10 years ago, the Polish people, most obviously

So you're not going to get any big surge of immigrants like you did after the Central and Eastern European countries

acceded to the European Union. It simply doesn't make any economic sense. And that should be a reason why reintroducing freedom of movement

should not scare the horses. But I guess what I'm describing this hour

I still think that British horses are too easily scared. to be as excited as some people are about what Andy Burnham has done

Mark is in Kharkiv. Mark, what would you like to say? Well, do you know what, James

I opened up my emails and various stuff, and I saw it this morning and I thought, thank God

Oh, good. Somebody has finally bitten the bullet, stood up and said

this was wrong and we're going to fix it. I want to feel like that, mate

Well, you know what? I do. I do. I really do. And you know what

The demographic has changed. I mean, I'm quite fortunate. I've got dual nationalities

So I have an Italian passport. And you probably have an Irish one as well. And my kids have Italian passports as well

And this Schengen argument. Do you know what? The minute you left the UK and arrived in Europe

you were fully benefiting from the Schengen travel. You could drive from border to border unhindered

I think it's wonderful, James. I really do, and I'm so happy

Were you expecting it yet? Did you think it would be a while coming? And also, nothing's happened yet

Let's not count any chickens, but the conversation has changed. I don't want to count the eggs before the chickens have come home to roost

But no, I wasn't expecting it. I really wasn't. So this morning I get up and I normally plough through the newspapers

out here in the Arquive. I just keep in touch with what's going on over there

And I saw that and I thought, you know what? Well done

Well done. Bite the bullet. Take these, let's say, naysayers head on

And you know what? He's going to get the vote. Because the democratic voting, let's say the populace now

has changed its young people. It's my kids and my grandkids that will vote for this

That's very true. But then in response to that, I just remind you of that poll from June

that showed that when you introduce... And you've got to remember who you will be dealing with

you move Schengen or freedom of movement. Either, I think, would be problematic

for the kind of characters that we're contemplating. And, of course, moving into the euro

joining the single currency and abandoning the pound, and it becomes a culture war again

Yeah, but that's a facile argument in truth. The whole of Brexit was a facile argument, Mark

but it still succeeded. I wasn't allowed to vote, by the way

Were you not? No, no, no, no. A lot of people don't know this, but if you lived outside of the UK

for more than five years, we were excluded from the vaults. Yeah, I did know that

Five million of us. But that doesn't address my worry that those would be such potent cultural..

Yeah, yeah, and I do understand the cultural sort of thing. But look at it this way

Switzerland and Norway have full rights and access to the European Union

Denmark, Sweden and the Czech Republic don't have the euro. Nobody's saying that we have to abandon a pound

Nobody's ever said that. The European Union has never said that. Macron and the Spanish Prime Minister yesterday announced

you know what, we would welcome the UK back into the clock

You said that yesterday. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you know what, the shame of all this is that when the vote was allowed

when the referendum was allowed, is that the stay campaign was so limp

And you know what? They let the, I don't know, rabid press..

They didn't know what to do, did they? They turned up... No. I was going to say at the time, I said something like, they turned up for a knife fight

with a pair of boxing gloves and a battered old copy of the Queensbury rule

Yeah, exactly. And you know the other upside from this, and this is why all these, let's say

newspapers or news outlets owned by offshore billionaires are getting their panties in a bunch

is that if we do re-enter, which I sincerely hope we do

certainly in my lifetime, they're going to be subject to offshore tax rules

And how wonderful would that be? Yeah, I mean, that may have been a much bigger driver

of the discourse and the debate than many people acknowledged or understood at the time

Thank you, Mark. It's nicely put. And I hope it's contagious. I guess it's day one, isn't it

So you have to feel the wheels turn and you have to start entertaining the possibility

of actually getting off the train rather than just sitting there going, oh, well, this isn't where we wanted to go

but I'm not the driver. And unfortunately, the driver has fallen under the spell

of some of the most dangerous and disgusting people in the history of British public life in this country

The driver is public opinion in this country. I'd be more like Mark

I wish I could be. Tony's in Greenwick. Tony, what would you like to say? Hi, James

I'll be brief. A couple of things. You're probably less enthusiastic about it because you know what's coming

Whereas the first time, we didn't know what it was going to be like. You know what the hurdles are going to be

You know what we're going to have to go through to get over the line. And do you know what else

And that's probably why you're a wee bit... Yeah. Do you know what else it is that you've just made me realise

I mean, look what it did last time. Look at what we're still dealing with now

If there'd been no Brexit, there would have been no abuse of R&L Ivolta. volunteers for having the audacity to save human souls from the sea there would have been no rise

in in in fascism in this country street fascism there would have been no uh impunity for politicians

who complained about the skin color of people on television or said that they didn like being in birmingham because they didn see enough white faces all of that they all Brexit children All of those moments And if we this is just I don know if this sounds pessimistic

or insightful or both, but do it all again and they have to now turn the dial up even higher than it is already

Yeah, and the other thing, I was going to come at it from a Scottish angle, is that you know that when Burnham gets approval

from whoever he needs to get approval for for a second referendum or to push forward for it

then the SNP will be knocking on his door saying, wait a minute, what about us

We want a second referendum on independence because your argument is that the Brexit hasn't worked for us

Our argument is the union doesn't work for us. So they'll be knocking on the door and saying

that we want a second referendum on this as well and that will cause more division

And the thing is that by doing this as well, Andy Burnham is kind of stealing some of the SNP thunder because the SNP are one of the only two parties who were vocal about rejoining the EU

So by falling into that camp, I think they're going to get some of the former Labour voters who are now SNP voters back into the Labour camp

And that would dilute the SNP vote. Yeah, I mean, and he did talk about that, didn't he

when he was describing his late father's vision of the United Kingdom

as being a collaboration of all the nations. And you're right, it does steal a little bit of their lunch

So, I mean, I'm not going to, even today, I don't think I'm going to deploy the infernal ratio

But I think we should be trying to warm ourselves up about this

I really do. I think that allowing the... I mean, it's not like me, actually, to sort of give up before we've even had to fight

because the other lot are so awful and they won last time. But I do think that the moment deserves proper recognition

And Andy Burnham has done something already infinitely more courageous than Keir Starmer ever did

And that is simply to say it's rubbish. It's wrong. It's done more harm than good. I'd have gone further

but that's probably just as well that I'm not prime minister. And therefore, we should seek to improve the state of the nation, because what is the definition of patriotism in your world? Wanting the best for your country and Brexit ain't it

James O'Brien on LBC. Another conversation prompted by Andy Burnham's premiership and most pertinently by his conference speech

There was a heck of a lot in it. There was so much in it, actually, that all of the people who'd spent 10 weeks saying

they weren't quite sure what he stood for or what Burnhamism was have had to find other things to start picking holes in

But it was ever thus. And I don't want this to sound like the beginning of the last hour

where I kind of wring my hands and say, oh, I don't know what to think

I do know what to think about the European Union. I do know what to think about that conversation

And I do know why I don't feel the excitement that I expected to feel

But I also know that I will do. Because you cannot give up

You know, you cannot. What are we going to do? Someone's just asked me, actually, does this mean you're going to stop fighting the fascists

who are attacking RNLI volunteers? Does this mean you're going to stop pointing out the lies

that are being told by all the usual suspects? Does this mean that you're going to stop critiquing Donald Trump just because the liars keep winning doesn't mean that you give up telling the truth

That's kind of what they bank on. It's not quite that simple, because if you have, for example, another referendum and you lose again, then you're probably going to put off rejoining until even further afield than it is now

But you can't give up. You can't. Well, there you go. There's your there's your slow

There's your T-shirt for today. You can't stop telling the truth just because the liars keep winning

In fact, you can make a pretty strong case and you can put this on the back of the T-shirt. The more the liars win, the more important the truth becomes

Anyone fancy a bit of Orwell? The party told you to ignore..

I can't remember it exactly. To ignore the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final most terrible command

That's what happens when you stop telling the truth because you've been a little bit battered and broken

by the victories of the liars. Should we do them together? Let's do them together

Brexit, Boris Johnson, Liz Truss, Donald Trump, climate change. They're just the top five

The liars have won. Maybe they're beginning to lose on climate change, but now they're saying, oh, well, we were wrong, but we won

So it's too late to do anything now. So in a way, we were right after all

So they all win. They win. So what do you do if you have been arguing and were arguing

before they were proved wrong that they were wrong. Do you give up? Do you hang up your headphones and say

oh, I can't be doing this again? Of course you don't. What came over me at 10 o'clock this morning

The next conversation is actually built on my ignorance. It's not built on my ambivalence or my cowardice

or my fear of the future. It's built on genuine ignorance. And it's an ignorance that I was reminded yesterday

by a couple of callers is pretty shameful, actually, for somebody who does what I do for a living

I've got this problem, right? No, no, no, not that. I've got this problem whereby I can't see the world anymore

except as split between stories and topics. I don't know when this happened

It doesn't happen to all of us. You could do this job for a long time and never have this problem

Producers don't always develop this. Well, I'm going to call it a gift, actually, as opposed to a problem

But it feels like a problem on days like today. Most days, it feels like a gift

So I know the difference between a story and a topic. A lot of people don't

Not mentioning any names, but a lot of people don't. So they think that because a story is big

because it's leading the news bulletin, it must be a topic. And then you end up listening to phone-ins

where there are five guests and no callers, right? That's what happens when you mistake a story for a topic

The other way around works as well. Sometimes the best topics aren't really stories at all

Often quite a lot of the light-hearted stuff that we do together, we struggle to find a hook for it

But if I do my job correctly, then it would be a really interesting conversation about something that's not actually that newsworthy

This, bizarrely, for something that is under the current affairs umbrella, is a very strange job

We had a flirtation a few years ago under a previous management with not talking about the news at all

I find that hard to believe now, even though the words just came out of my own mouth

but the idea was to make engaging speech radio that was not welded or even wedded to the headlines

to the news agenda. And I guess that would involve the pendulum swinging

far too far in the opposite direction. But there is a difference between a story and a topic

And then very, very rarely something comes along where I know that it's a me problem

but I can't see it as either a story or a topic. I mean, electoral reform

What happened then? Electoral reform. What happened then to you? Not to me

What happened to you? I said those two words, electoral reform. What happened

What happened? Did you go, yes, finally. Give me the phone, Doris

I'm ringing him. What happened when I said electoral reform Did you Because I think I went back to Father Francis classes in 1989 when I was falling asleep at the back of the room

But I knew I had to wake up because this was almost certain to come up in the A level. And we would run through all the different forms of electoral reform

And yet every other lesson that we did in A level politics was so contingent upon the two party system that we lived under

it just always felt to me a little bit academic you know it always felt a little bit academic and

so i knew i had to pay attention i knew it was going to come up in the exam because it almost

always did and i knew it was never going to happen and that's why it doesn't actually scream story or

topic at me in the first instance and here's where the me problem

it really flipping should it really flipping should listen to what Andy Burnham said

about this subject on Tuesday prepare to call me and tell me why you

want it and you want it now if I can do a phone in about here's a good example

of something that can make for a fascinating conversation but isn't necessarily

that newsworthy if I can do a fascinating phone-in about what's in French

lunchboxes, or rather what French schoolchildren are having for their lunch, and then compare

it to what English or Scottish or Welsh or Northern Irish schoolchildren are having

and if we can actually get bombarded with pictures of menus stuck to fridges across continental

Europe, and we sit here going, they eat what? Wow! That's better than

Michelin star! And then what did your kid have in Birmingham? Oh

a turkey Twizzler and a packet of Monster Munch. We can get that! then surely we can have a conversation about what difference electoral reform or proportional representation makes in a democracy

Because your average Brit ain't got no clue. And I am on this and many other things, but not all

I am your average Brit. So listen to Andy Burnham, grasp and nettle

because already Labour figures are pointing out that if we were to go down this path as a country

then it is highly unlikely that we would ever have a Labour prime minister

or any prime minister governing once again as the leader of a single party of government

Now, because of that A-level and because of 54 years on this earth

or living in this country, there's already a little bit of me that goes

oh dear, that would be bad. What Andy Burnham did on Tuesday, and this historically might turn out to be

one of the most interesting things that he's done. He parked the idea, he parked the reflex reaction

to the idea that, well, if a party has to govern in coalition

that's not good. He parked the reflex reaction to that suggestion that it's a bad thing

Why would it be? Just because Nick Clegg turned out to be something of a wet blanket

doesn't mean that coalition governments are a bad thing. I think they can soften extremism

They can cut fascism off at their knees, because although the fascists may end up with more seats

the likelihood of them ever achieving power in coalition with people who aren't fascists is slim

Not non-existent, but slim. What... Well, listen to Andy Burnham and then tell me either

why you want it, the three options there, why you want it, why you don't want it

and what it's like to live in a country where you've got it. which is these days most countries

0345 6060 973 is a number you need if you want to book your birth early

But have a listen to what the Prime Minister Andy Burnham had to say on this single subject

Conference, there is one final thing we need to change if our plan for Britain is to succeed

Our politics. Westminster prizes point scoring over problem solving. And that is why so many things have gone unfixed

for so long. If we want to change Britain, we need to change ourselves. I will work as

hard as I can to get as much cross-party support for our plan for Britain. If we can secure

that, it will project a message of confidence and stability to markets and the world about

Britain's future direction. It is why I decided to make this very different conference speech

We can't succeed in the eyes of the world if we continue with the levels of political turbulence we have seen in recent times

It is always in my mind that I'm the seventh Prime Minister in 10 years

It is why I want to underpin our plan for Britain with a new politics

We will all have failed in our public duties. if we carry on as we are and open the door of number 10

to a divisive government on less than 30% of the vote or less

and we shouldn't do that conference. In past years, you have voted twice to support electoral reform

I hear you. I agree with you. And today I am announcing a new National Commission on Electoral Reform

I invite all the political parties to be part of its work

We will contest the next election with a manifesto commitment to change the electoral system

so that everyone's vote counts and everyone's voice is heard. I mean, I could add another question to the list now

I'm surprised that there was so much support in the room for that, given that the most obvious response is

well, if we have proportional representation, then we will never govern alone again. But maybe he's got a slightly more intelligent audience than me

I mean that, actually. It's not false modesty. They're just sitting there thinking, of course he's right

We're on this issue. It's ridiculous now. Do you know, just something interesting there

and I may have done my calculations wrong, when he talked about seven prime ministers in ten years

David Cameron is the pivot point, right? So if you take David Cameron as the first of the seven

and the last of the previous seven, do you see what I mean? So David Cameron, you count forward from Cameron

to get to seven in the last 10 years. If you were to count backwards from Cameron

but you were including him on both lists, I think you get to Harold Wilson

I think you get to Harold Wilson. So it would go Cameron, May, Johnson, Truss, Sunak, Starmer, Burnham

and I think it would go, and I might have missed one out

it would go, Brown, Blair, Major Thatcher, Callaghan, Heath, not Wilson. Callaghan, Heath. There you go

I missed that. Heath, you go back to Ted Heath? Early 1970s, when I was born. Almost to the

year. So the argument here is, I think, quite beautiful. If you want to improve the country

you need to move with an engine that is driven by more than 30% of the population support

You need to actually have governments that include other parties. I don't know what countries you think of first when I say coalition government

I was reading something, I mean, almost unbelievably disgusting this morning about the Israeli diaspora minister and some hideous things he said about the board of deputies of British Jews

He's the guy that invited Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, who prefers to be known as Tommy Robinson to Israel, as some sort of conquering hero

So we know that Netanyahu's murderous regime has only been made possible by coalition, by the fact that other..

So immediately you're thinking of a country where that's not necessarily a good advertisement for proportional representation or electoral reform

but it's a unique nation. It's a unique country in millions of ways

And in Europe, I mean, are the lessons good or bad? are the lessons good or bad

why do you want it why don't you want it and what's it like to live

in a country that's got it and remember this is a conversation

that is underpinned because I'm the presenter of the program it's underpinned by

my ignorance there's four or five topics at the moment where I find myself

sitting in front of you feeling a little bit ashamed of the fact that you're the ones doing

the preaching and I'm the one doing the praying and I should have

clearer views I should have had a clearer review in the last hour and I didn't. I don't know whether it's because I'm mellowing or doing too

much yoga. But this is the real deal. This isn't me being a bit remiss or not paying attention

This is me sitting here going, I know it's a very big deal. I know it could change the world

And I don't know why I don't find it more exciting. And the answer is because I'm ignorant

I'm ignorant of three things. I'm ignorant of why it's a good idea. I'm ignorant of why it's a bad

idea and I'm ignorant of what it's like to live in a country where they've already got it

So if you can answer any or all of those questions, then the number you

need is 0345 6060 973. James O'Brien on LBC. It's 21 minutes

after 11. I've remembered another element of this conversation that is unhelpful. And it's

I say the words electoral reform and I suddenly have echoes in

my mind of my politics A-level and I couldn't even tell you what it is

So we had a referendum, didn't we, under the coalition government on the alternative voting system, which is not the single transferable vote, which is which is which is

So you can talk about electoral reform. And all I can tell you is that it would mean something other than first past the post

It would mean something other than what we currently have. It was one of the first victories of the of the Brexit lobby, you know, scuppering Nick Clegg's calls for an alternative vote

very similar tactics deployed. But that was an alternative to the first-past-the-post system

It was not the alternative that is deployed in some countries. And we've got it, of course, or variations on it

We don't have first-past-the-post in the London mayoral election. We don't have first-past-the-post in

I don't think we have it in the Senate, do we, in Wales? So, you know, it's not like I'm casting my net

hundreds and miles away. does it work where you vote? Does the idea of a system that is not

first past the post, does it work where you vote? And remind me of the positives

and negatives. Have I done this wrong? Because what would we need to do

I'm just doing it as not first past the post, because Andy Burnham didn't set out

the proposal that he would like or the proposal that he would prefer. He just

objects to and rejects the, I mean, age-old practice in this country of

giving all of the power to the people that got the most votes. They don't need to get over 50

of the votes. They don't need to, well, all of the seats. They don't even need to get the most

votes under our system. They just need to win the most seats and then they need to get a majority

in the House of Commons and then they govern. And you can win that with a surprisingly small

percentage of the population, of the electorate. So tell me why you think Andy Burnham is right

why you think Andy Burnham is wrong, or what it's like to live in a country that does not have

or in an electorate that does not have, the first-past-the-post system. Paolo is in Highgate

Paolo, what would you like to say? Hi, James. I would like to say that, you know

I got a camp from Italy and I lived here a long time

But what happens in Italy and what happens with proportional representation or proportional representation-type systems

is that you need to vote for a party. You don't vote for people

And those parties have lists, and then you get assigned the MPs

based on some formal attribution of the vote. But the parties all have leaders

Yes. So you are kind of... You're voting for the leader, really, then. Which we are now

I mean, most people... You're voting for a list. Yeah. And what would happen is

you would have effectively voted for let's say you vote for Farage 50 times in

general and Farage gets three seats allocated but then he picks one

and then number two gets attributed. This is my A-level again. You sound like

Father Francis. It's complicated. I'm Catholic too. It's complicated isn't it? It is complicated

and that's why you lose Yes, you vote for a party, and you would have to need some form of mechanism to then decide who forms the government

We don't have a Britain constitution in the UK, and the king doesn't really have that power

You would need to have some mechanism to say, OK, we can't really form a government

What do we do now? Go back to the people. We have another election. But that's not in the constitution, right

Yeah. It's up to the parties. So we need to work out a deal with each other

under which we find an umbrella big enough to put together a majority, a parliamentary majority

And Andy Burnham would say that's a good thing because more people will be represented in government

than are currently. Do you agree? I mean, again, it's dependent on the system

You're describing the closed list system, are you, I think? It's always like that, because you need to have a way of..

Yeah, but it's not the only option. So this is part of the problem, and part of the reason why I'm still not sure this is a story or a topic

even though we're in the middle of it. Part of the problem here is, as I say, electoral reform, it could mean ten different things

Yeah yeah And the other thing that happens is unless you have a very strong law that enshrined in something that cannot be changed that easily

then you end up, every parliament, debating on what's electoral law and the rules change

Yeah, so, I mean, I don't actually know how you're going to answer this question, but I've got a 52

What's that? Is there a child in the background or is someone on the extension? Yeah, I've got a daughter

Oh, can I ask what her name is? You don't have to tell me. Aurelia

Aurelia, what a beautiful name. What did she think? What was she saying there? Well, she's going to get dual citizenship, so, you know

I'm 52-48 on this. I think 52% you're going to say yes

48% you're going to say no. Do you think the British system is better than the Italian system

Well, it used to be. I think it used to be more stable, but we've come to a different kind of..

Well, no, the electoral system is exactly the same as it used to be. So which one do you prefer, the British one or the Italian one

But as I said, the Italian has moved slightly back towards some first-pass supports in elements

So you're giving me a politician's answer. This is why I want to know what Aurelia thinks. Aurelia would give me a straight answer, Paolo

Aurelia, is it yes or is it no? I'm sure that's for Ford. I think the British system is a good system

Yeah, there you go, 52. That's what I thought. And that's not what Andy Burnham thinks

And that's why it is perhaps all so confusing. Just give me the Scottish angle

You don't need to be Italian. You don't need to be... Just give me the Scottish angle. To convince an English person that we need electoral reform

because it keeps getting voted for in Labour conferences. And it got a very big cheer there

I think it's almost had a unanimous vote one year because 40% didn't vote at all

So there was a kind of landslide. What is the biggest selling point for you

Because at the moment, I don't know that Andy Burnham has articulated it perfectly

and I'm not sure that I can. It's coming up to half past 11. Simon Marks with us before the end of this hour

I've also got an unhinged headline for you. Should we do that now

Should we do the unhinged headline now? Luckily, I don't have to look very far when I need an unhinged headline

All I need to do, I'm not going to have it with me now, am I? All I need to do is pull open the Daily Telegraph

have a look at what Alistair Heath has written, and then nine times out of ten

it's going to be an absolute stone-cold contender for the unhinged headline

And today's is an absolute doozy. So here's the paper. Just in case you think I'm exaggerating, I can open it up

I can turn to the comment page, and I can tell you that the unhinged..

Well, hang on a minute, we need to do this properly. Are you ready? Burnham's real plan for Britain is mad, nasty and shockingly extreme

So there's a man who listened to the same speech that you listened to

A man getting quite emotional about his recently deceased father. A man describing the unacceptability of a system that allows water companies

to trouser enormous profits while pumping shocking amounts of sewage into our waterways

A man who simply wants to make the country healthier, wealthier and kinder

But that's not what Alistair Heath heard. Alistair Heath heard a plan for Britain that is mad, nasty and shockingly extreme

Coming up to half past eleven, the challenge to excite the audience

excite the British people about the prospect of electoral reform is, I think, an almost impossible challenge to me

But I'm going to insist that you keep trying after the very latest headlines with Dominic Ellis

James O'Brien on LBC. Thinking yesterday after that speech, I mean, what are Baden-Ock and Farage going to do

in response to Andy Burnham refusing to join in the kind of cockfight that has typified politics in recent years

Even the supposedly mild-mannered Keir Starmer spent an awful lot of his time attacking the other lot

And I don't know whether it will last or not, but I think it's sincere. I think it's authentic. Burnham truly want, if you want to improve the country, then you need as many shoulders as possible to the wheel, which is why he talks about electoral reform

Conversation will continue shortly. And it's why he resists any urges, if he even feels them, to put the boot in to his opponents

It will be tricky at PMQs, which will be back soon, of course, but that's evidence, perhaps, that he's right

PMQs is such a pointless exercise, albeit an entertaining one, that it makes a mockery of politics

And Andy Burnham's position at the moment is he wants to move away from that adversarial pointless point scoring

if that's not a contradiction in terms, and move instead towards, I like that phrase, actually, I'll use it again

a place where you can get more shoulders to the wheel than you currently can under our electoral system

But, of course, the question of how Farage and Bader Knott would respond to this is, I suspect, quite easy to answer

Farage is still hiding. Farage is still, I think, sort of gone AWOL

It's why the F team are turning up in studios all the time

We had Richard Tice on yesterday, Suella Breverman on today. Oh, Nick, you are really spoiling us

and it's why you haven't seen Farage, you haven't seen Hyde nor Hare of him

But the answer to the question of what Badenock is going to do is pretty simple

She's going to cast around for more people to attack and accuse of scrounging

So today's front page of the Daily Mail is Kemi to stop school leavers going straight on the dole

So there you go, school leavers next. Who's that bloke on the radio who said

once immigration starts coming down they're going to really struggle to find new people to attack

And he told you who it would be But he's such a plumb because he didn't mention school leavers

School leavers, lazy layabout. Yeah, plumbing school leavers coming over here, leaving our schools

Ah, so there it is. There's your answer. It's almost a new game, that. Who's she going to attack

What utterly undeserving target is she going to attack next? Back to electoral reform, which is tied to that

because, of course, it's all part of Andy Burnham's decision or desire to do things differently

Clark's in Scarborough. Clark, what would you like to say? Hi, James

First of all, I have been waiting for you to have a conversation about electoral reform since I started listening to you back in 2015 or whenever it was

So thank God. Here we are. So for me, it's the thing that kind of really got me interested in politics in the first place when I was 18

We were very different students, you and me. Yeah, clearly. And it just so happened that 2010 was the first election I could vote in when I was 18. Okay

Okay, that's interesting. The outcome of that was the coalition government. And I think, for me, electoral reform goes to the very heart of our democracy, the way that people feel represented

Because, you know, if you think about all the constituencies in the UK, there are so many that people would call safe seats

Yes. Now, I know that that term has, you know, loosened somewhat in recent years, given, you know, reform success and the green success, etc. Yes

But the principle still stands that there are hundreds of safe seats

Now if we are bothered about people feeling engaged in politics people having faith in politics What the thing that people need to feel in order for them to take an interest

and to feel like politics is working for them? It's the fundamental principle that their vote counts

And in these safe seats, say, for example, in the Scarborough and Whitby constituency where I live

it's a toss-up. Well, historically, it was a toss-up between Labour and Conservative. Yeah

Projections put it at reform at the next election. But, you know, say, for example, if I were a Liberal Democrat or if I were a Green Party supporter, I go to the ballot box at my local polling station, put the cross in, let's say, the Green Party box

Great. What happens? Pointless. I mean, it's such a powerful point. I don't want today to turn into a therapy session for me

but you're right, of course, because the callers I've taken over the years who tell me there's no point me voting

they prompt a Pavlovian reaction in me. I always sort of want to respond by saying

yes, of course there is. But the point you're making so well is there really isn't

There really isn't. And if you look at the results of the 2024 election

I've got them up here. I don't just know them off the top of my head. I'm not that much of a geek. That means you can't do my holiday cover

because if I had them up in front of me, I'd just pretend that I did have them off the top of my head. Oh, you see, that's why you're better at this than most of us

I don't know about that, mate. I don't know about that. Go on. But Labour Party got 33.7% of the national vote share

and 63.2% of the seats. Yeah. OK? Yeah. Reform UK got 14.3% of the vote

and 0.8% of the seat share. OK? Now, again, this isn't about trying to favour one party or another

This is simply about democratic fairness. And anyone who's balking at that should just do it the other way around

Just imagine it being the other way around, because that would be under the same system. So Reform got 33.7% of the vote and 60-odd percent of the seats

and then Labour got 14.5% of the vote and 0.1% of the seats

Precisely, and it's one of the reasons why I'm so uncomfortable with opponents of proportional representation

who say, oh, but it will let far right parties in. Do you know what

Yes, that is a risk. But if you truly care about democracy

then you should care about democracy even when it's uncomfortable. And although, I mean, arguably Germany is

I mean, Germany, as someone said to me yesterday, fascism back in Germany of all places at the moment

even though they seem to be on the brink of perhaps giving the lie or challenging this observation

Because fascism is so toxic, you actually might end up with more seats

but you're going to end up further away from power because no decent party is ever going to go into coalition with you

So you actually end up potentially getting cut off at the knees by a proportional representation system

Yeah, and just one other thing I would like to say is another one of the challenges that people raise is this prospect of coalition government

And there's two things I want to say on coalition government. The first is that the last government that the UK had to run a full term was the coalition government between 2010 and 2015

That's just a point that I will put out there for people to mull over. Well, I mean, I can't let it go completely unchallenged

Brexit that broke everything, because the population, or 51 point something percent of the population

got sold something that never existed. And British politics is still struggling to come to terms

with the consequences and the ramifications of that. But you are factually and historically correct

The last Prime Minister to serve a full term was David Cameron

and he was the Prime Minister in a coalition government. Yeah. And the second thing I would like to say on coalition government is I actually think it increases accountability for political parties, because at the moment, every decision that's taken is the sole responsibility of the Labour Party or the Conservative Party

And it becomes very easy for opposition parties to, you know, throw blame at the governing party and say it's all your fault. We have nothing to do with it

If you have a coalition government and you bring multiple parties into that system, not only do you reach compromise, because you have to, but then it also stops some of the biggest challenges that we face as a society becoming political footballs

Because the more people you have involved, you have to share the accountability

And I think it will change the way that people conduct political discourse

And I think Andy Burnham is absolutely onto the right thing here when he talks about cross-party collaboration, trying to reach consensus

and this whole thing about country first, party first, not party first, not political point scoring

Can I tell you something, James? Last year I started writing a novel

Neither did I. It's not going very well. It's been about a year, hit writer's block

But in it, the kind of protagonist is this kind of politician

politician who is sort of the embodiment of everything that I would love to be if I had the

balls to become a politician. And Andy Burnham has almost sort of stolen the thunder for the

protagonist of my book, because everything that he is trying to do, his whole approach

is just is what I have been waiting for. And I think so many people have been waiting for

and I know it's only early days but I feel so much hope and optimism

in a way that I have not felt since the I agree with Nick days

Let's not talk about that. No, let's not talk about that. The other thing you've done rather brilliantly

and I don't know whether you noticed this or not is that there are three things from Tuesday's speech

for me at least. The three biggest pillars would have been the Brexit argument, the electoral reform argument

and the triple lock argument And the triple lock is an absolutely perfect example of what you described as the consequence of the two-party system

Because the list of Tories who have critiqued the triple lock or said that it's unsustainable is long and contains pretty much everybody in Kemi Bader, not Shadow Cabinet, including, I think, her

They've all attacked it. They've all said it's unsustainable. And then as soon as Andy Burnham says he's going to do something about it, they all start pretending that it's absolutely sacrosanct and any compromises or tinkerings whatsoever would be of apocalyptic significance

And that couldn't happen in coalition. No. And I just I'm really good

And I bless you. Thank you. I really appreciate that. But I hope and pray that it comes to fruition

because Justin Trudeau promised the same when he got elected in Canada and it never happened

Petered out, didn't it? Get back to the book, seriously. It is not, I don't know whether you think it is

but I can tell you categorically that it not a problem if your protagonist resembles a prime minister who you thought would remain a figment of your imagination It could actually be a selling point It could actually be a big positive

Have you read A Very British Coup by Chris Mullin? I haven't actually, no

Have you ever heard of it? Yeah, I've heard of it, but I've not read it. Maybe, I don't know

I mean, sometimes when you read a book that's in a similar space to the one you're trying to write, it can be a big distraction

Other times it can be an inspiration. But there's a line in it that I have a feeling you will love

It's not actually in the novel. It's in the television adaptation that was written by Alan Plater, the screenwriter

And the prime minister is an old school Labour man. He's not modern in the way that Burnham is, but he is old school in the way that Burnham is

I think he's called Harry Webb. He's definitely called Harry. And he's just won an election. The security services are spitting nails

You know, the right wing media is having kittens. and yet the population have gone all in

on his vision for a much better country with actually battling against denationalization, deregulation

many of the things that Burnham mentioned yesterday there's a wonderful line in it where he's pulling out of the railway station on a trade

and all the hacks, all the journalists are on the platform and they're trying to get a Daily Mail style headline

like, do you know how many Rice Krispies there are in a box of Rice Krispies or how much is a pint of milk

and just trying to get him to say something that will give them a story for tomorrow. So they shout, is it true, Harry

that you're going to abolish first-class travel? And he leans out of the window, played by Ray Mcly, actually

the late Ray Mcly. He leans out of the window and he goes, no, I'm going to abolish second-class travel

I don't know why as a kid, I was watching a grown-up programme with my dad

and that one really got me and it had that extra dimension of, oh, I've understood a grown-up thing

It's a great novel about something similar to what you described earlier

I'll tell you something else, Clark. If all the callers on the subject of electoral reform

were as good as you, I'd do it every day. Cut him off

Bring him back. I wanted to hear that compliment. If all the callers were as good as you, mate

we would do it every day. Thank you. That really does mean a lot, James

Thank you. I mean it. Every single syllable. It's 11.46. Simon Marks next

James O'Brien on LBC. I just need to clarify something. Cliff Richard has never been the hero

of a political novel written by Chris Mullen or anybody else. That name Harry Webb that popped into my bonds

was as a consequence of it somehow having resided there because it's Cliff Richard's real name

Michael Caine's real name is Maurice Micklewhite. That sits in exactly the same part of my brain

That's the reason I just pulled it out. Harry Perkins is the hero of a very British coup

which I absolutely recommend, and if you can find the TV adaptation of it

then I recommend that just as highly. Simon Marks is here. This is from Will, Simon

My buttocks automatically clench before Simon Marks comes on. What madness will he be bringing us now

But we'll begin not with madness, but with tragedy. Yeah, I mean, well, tragedy that is also madness

I mean, what took place last night in Nashville, Tennessee, the attempted execution of Krista Pike

who was going to become the first woman in the state to be executed in 200 years

is just a staggering indictment of America's death penalty culture, of the disasters that are taking place

in death chambers all over the country, and of a morality that has really largely evaporated

since President Donald Trump returned to power, because the use of the death penalty has soared

since he returned to power. Krista Pike was being executed for the 1995 murder of 18-year-old Colleen Slemmer

who was beaten to death by Krista Pike and her then-boyfriend. At the time of the crime, Krista Pike was 18

She was charged as an adult. There are extraordinary images of the moments

after the death penalty was imposed on her. 18 years old, her face pockmarked with acne

She screams for an opportunity to hug her mother one last time before she is led away

They were all residents of a home for vulnerable teenagers. Correct. The jury did not weigh evidence that is uncontested

about her own history of having been on the receiving end of childhood sexual abuse and rape

Her fellow murderer, a 17-year-old boyfriend, because he was only 17, he was not charged under the death penalty statutes

and he's serving life in prison. He was recently turned down for parole

but she was last night strapped to a gurney and they began the process of trying to execute her

They did not succeed. Despite two attempts to pump her body full of pentobarbital

she survived. And you have the most astonishing contradiction, morally and ethically

of medical technicians at one point working to kill this woman in one state institution

and then she is rushed to a hospital in Nashville where doctors and nurses have been battling to save her life

Take a listen to what journalists who witnessed the execution or the attempted execution

at the Riverbend Maximum Security Institution reported regarding what they had seen

once the appalling events of last night were over. Well, when they told us to leave at 8.53

Christopike was still breathing. They did two separate rounds of pentobarbital, which I've never seen before. The protocol does say that they should do a second round

If the person is still alive, they went through two rounds and she was still breathing at the end

It was very ragged. She lifted her head up and was looking around at one point

We have a lot of questions and the Department of Correction has a lot of answers that it needs to

provide to the public about what happened here. Lots of questions that almost certainly the state

of Tennessee will not answer because there are secrecy laws in place in that state and in numerous

others over where they now procure the cocktail of lethal injection drugs that are used in

executions. And again, talk about, you know, the moral contradiction that's taking place here

It was last Tuesday at the United Nations that President Donald Trump was equating the drug cartels of Latin America with ISIS, saying they're the ISIS of the Western Hemisphere

But these states that are carrying out lethal injection executions, or in the case of Tennessee last night, trying to, they're literally going down back alleys to try and procure supplies of pentobarbital and the other drugs because manufacturers either say they won't sell them, compound them and provide them, or in some states they are legally banned now from doing it

Because they can only be used for one thing. Two things, probably mentioned, I'm sure you would have done

that the mother of the victim of Colleen Slemmer is fully behind

Fully behind and was in the death chamber hoping to witness that execution last night

And the second question, is this linked to Trump? I mean, is this a change in the national atmosphere that's a consequence of him being back in the way

Yes, absolutely. When Donald Trump was president first time around, in his final year in office, big fan of the death penalty, big champion of executions

And remember, there is a federal government death row, as well as the death rows in individual states

So in his final year in office, President Donald Trump presided over the record-breaking execution of 13 inmates on that federal government death row in Terre Haute, Indiana

As soon as Joe Biden came back into power, he came into power

He commuted the sentences of 37 of the 40 remaining inmates on that federal death row

They're all now serving life sentences without the possibility of parole. As soon as Trump came back into power, he signed a raft of executive orders, literally within hours of his return to the Oval Office

including one that orders the Attorney General to take all necessary and lawful action to help states obtain lethal injection drugs

And even though 11 states have now completely abandoned the death penalty and four states have a moratorium on its use

if Krista Pike had died last night in Tennessee, she would have been the 29th person put to death this year

Last year, 47 executions were conducted from coast to coast. That's the highest annual total since 2009

So in those states with the death penalty, you've got a very clear sense that their governors, the vast majority of them Republican

are all getting the thumbs up from Donald Trump to try and dispatch as many death row inmates as possible in the two and a bit years left of Trump's time in the Oval Office

It would be churlish of me to point out that none of this is very Christian. But happily, of course, Pete Hegseth is at hand to remind us of what true Christianity is

We'll get on to that shortly. But we should begin probably with him very helpfully providing a polar opposite in terms of emotional literacy

And even some might say what we want men to be to compare with what Andy Burnham did on stage in Liverpool on Tuesday

Well, he was unhinged yesterday, Pete Hegseth. This is the Defence Secretary, or as he calls himself and Trump calls him, the Secretary of War

presiding over his annual State of the Force presentation. And, I mean, I don't even know how to set this first clip up

other than telling you that it contains deeply offensive language that we would much rather not have to bring you here on LBC

but it is important to bring it because it reflects the approach

that Pete Hegseth is bringing to running the Department of Defence as the Commander-in-Chief, President Trump's

absolute slavish Defence Secretary. Let's take a listen to the way in which

and again, this is deeply insulting language, the way in which Pete Hegseth characterises

the Department of War in its current state. It's worth saying again

so that the fake news understands it. We are no longer the woke department or the weak department

Simple translation of that, no fatties, no trannies, no beardos, no weirdos

no wimps, no radicals. Just warriors. Just tough, ready, committed troops. The war department, as you know, is colorblind

gender neutral, and merit-based. or, as the president likes to say to me

central casting. Satirists, isn't it, that you have to feel sorriest for

That, as I say, has been criticised for his choice of language there, and rightly so

But just like Donald Trump yesterday, promising in that ludicrous advert that there wouldn't be any more warmongering

there you have Robert Higseth criticising other people for being weirdos. And on to the Christianity thing

Because this is actually constitutional rather than simply unhinged. Yes, I just want to make one more point about that first clip

When he says we are now colourblind, gender neutral and merit based, there is no evidence to support that contention whatsoever

I thought he was being sarcastic. He has presided over the defenestration of senior military figures

many of them women, many of them African American, as he has gone about enforcing loyalty tests of top commanders

He wants to know that they are loyal not only to him, but to Donald Trump's agenda

So the notion that this is merit-based, gender-neutral and colour-blind is completely contradicted by the facts

I genuinely thought it was sarcastic. I thought he was playing up to the crowd, but I'm being a bit silly

I mean, you may be. I mean, one can never tell. I was right yesterday

I was right yesterday. I was doing that thing about the Senate hearing. Anyway, we're going to run out of time

But he certainly wasn't being sarcastic yesterday when he said this. Today at my direction

I'm establishing the Office of Religious Affairs. Starting today and for secretaries of war after me, the Office of Religious Affairs will report straight to the top

No staff filters, no bureaucratic dilution, a direct line to the secretary

This is not going to be a paper pushing shop. It's going to have real teeth

They'll protect budgets, demand infrastructure and strengthen religious support. As Psalm 3312 extols us, blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord

Putting Christianity right at the heart, once again, of the Pentagon's operations, the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, which you and I have discussed before on this programme, James, said yesterday that it was outrageous that the president was trying to force all members of the armed forces to choose a standardised belief system

That's the same organisation that has collected scores and scores of complaints from members of the military serving in the Iran conflict

that they have been told that there's a Christian ethos behind all of this, that this is all part of a divine military operation

It's anti-Semitic, if nothing else, isn't it? And unconstitutional in a country where there is separation between church and state

And oddly, and it will sound like a pun, but it isn't, it proves once again that under this regime

absolutely nothing is sacred. And it also proves that even if the Democrats win the midterm elections

in now 32 days' time, that people like Hegseth and Trump are just going to carry on doing all of this

because there's no real guardrail that prevents them from doing it. There's no effective guardrail that's stopping them

Gilead, a few people have said in the message. Quite a few people actually have pointed out

that it bears echoes of Margaret Atwood's handmaid's tale as well. Last time

he was quoting the Bible, didn't he accidentally quote Pulp Fiction? Yes, he did, yes. I suppose that counts as improvement

Simon Marks, many thanks. It's 1202. James O'Brien on LBC. I'm not saying I'd forgotten it was Mystery Hour

I'm just saying that I had failed to point out in the programme so far

that Mystery Hour was on the horizon. And here it is, as if by magic

It a bit late so it be even less than an hour It never a full hour I don know why we call it well we call it Mystery Hour because Mystery 54 minutes just sounds stupid If you don know what this is you in for a bit of a treat I would say that wouldn I

But I genuinely believe that it's true. Very different from the other 14 hours of the week

that we could potentially spend together. 16, if you listen to the Full Disclosure podcast

And funny, you know. I try and bring a little bit of light and shade

into every conversation that we have. But with Mystery Hour, it's actually guaranteed

What is it? It's pretty straightforward. Someone rings in with a question

and then someone else rings in with an answer. But somewhere between those two quite normal-sounding phenomena

magic happens. Not quite magic, but you know what I mean. A better word than phenomena? I was searching for a word

Prosaic was the word I was looking for. Prosaic phenomena. Somewhere between those very prosaic moments

events, happenings, the magic will happen. And that's it. Someone rings in with a who, a why, a what, a where, a wherefore, a wither, a whence

And someone else rings in with the answer. The only rule really is you're not allowed to look stuff up

Obviously, you can't look stuff up because that would make a mockery of the whole practice

And my favorite contribution of the week, we'll win a Mystery Hour game

A Mystery Hour game. And there are two types of game. There is the original board game, which comes in a box and is full-sized box shape, size, box, box, size

And there is the new travel game, which is a completely different game, entirely different questions and even slightly different playing rules

And that one comes in a tin. You can win either. You choose by submitting my favorite contribution of the week

The full terms and conditions for that because it's a proper competition like what you would have on a proper show

Although obviously, if this was music radio, I'd be giving away a million pounds rather than a rather brilliant game in a tin or a box

Remember, you can choose. the full terms and conditions are available at lbc.co.uk

if you'd like to see the game on a screen you can go to mysteryhour.co.uk

where there is also, coincidentally, an opportunity to buy either or both

box, tin, tin, box, several boxes, several tins ten tins, one box, your choice

I could do the market still, couldn't I with my eyes shut that's it, I think we'll crack on, shall we

eight minutes after, I've done the terms and conditions I've done it all, I've done the housework

I've done the homework, I've done the thing, I've done the that I've done the other, let's crack on

The only thing I didn't do was remind you that Mystery Hour was coming up, which sometimes means that when 12 o'clock tolls

and indeed when Simon Marks was here, it meant we didn't take any calls for the last quarter of the 11 o'clock hour

That sometimes means that the switchboard is a little bit slow to get going

but not today. Far from it, in fact. But don't be downcast if you can't get through immediately

You must keep trying. That's the secret. That is the secret. Peter is in Ryslip

Peter, question or answer? It's a question, James. Carry on, Peter. Right

On TV, there's a programme called Digging for Britain. Oh, yes. Where archaeologists dig up ancient ruined buildings and what have you

And my question is, how do the builders end up being buried in the First Bridge? Yeah, I mean, it's a question that must have occurred to a lot of people

isn't it? It has because the girl are digging up buildings I think I know

I don't know that you're going to accept my answer but I'm going to share it with you anyway So

the first thing that has to happen before a building can get buried is that

it has to be abandoned Yes So once a building is abandoned

several things can happen that never happen or are rarely or are unlikely to happen in an unabandoned building

Right. Now, the first, oddly, is that they never get cleaned. Which means that the dust begins to build up

The second is that things like trees can grow right through the middle of them and essentially reduce them to rubble

So we're not actually, and even as I think an enthusiastic watcher of digging for Britain

I think you would agree they never actually dig up an intact building with a roof still on it or anything like that

No, not with a roof on, no. The roof would be all the first things to go out, I think

Yeah, exactly, because of wear and tear and often trees growing right through the middle of it

That's actually maybe not quite as common as I'm claiming. But the whole point is it becomes a ruin

And then I think, and this is where I begin to lose a little bit of my confidence

I think that worms play quite a big part. In bricks? No, not in the bricks, but the worms

every time they come to the surface, the worm kind of raises the soil level a bit

That would make sense. And coupled with meteorological factors like, you know

silt and dust and things being blown around. And because there is something there

there's a structure there, it doesn't just blow onto the next field. It gets stuck until the next thing you know

that the bit of brickwork that's left has been successfully buttressed. It's a good word

Buttressed by dirt and dust. And the next stage after being buttressed

is being buried. I told you you weren't going to buy it

but I think I'm right. No, I don't think I'd do buy it

We need a director's cut of digging for Britain, don't we? Because they presume too much, Peter

They presume too much when they dig stuff up. They should be doing at least one episode a series

telling us how the stuff ends up buried. Well, I think so

There's too much assumed knowledge in my answer, which is why I'm not going to give myself a round of applause

But I think two things. I think that worms and the weather will be quite a big part of the correct answer

And also, I think that buttress is a precursor to burial. It's also a lovely word

I'm going to introduce that to the programme more often. Peter, great question. Thank you very much indeed

12 minutes after 12 was the time. You know when you get older and your enthusiasms change and things like that

If I had the brain I've got now when I was 18 years old, archaeology would have been really attractive to me

What an amazing thing to do. I could really have got into that. I'm obsessed with disused railways, as you know

I've joined all the Facebook groups. I think I've got the patience for archaeology

I think I have. Maybe not. We'll never know now. Tom's in Wellington in Somerset

Tom, question or answer? Hello, James. Question. Carry on. Of all the things I think I'd speak to you about one day

this is definitely not one of them. Good man. I've got a question about pigs. Oh, yes

So I would like to know when and why, as a country, did we decide that pigs are the breakfast animal

So we eat bacon, we eat sausages, we eat black pudding. It all comes from pigs. We don't eat beef, we don't eat chicken, we don't eat lamb

Other countries do, but we don't. We decided it was pigs. I just want to know why. How did this question first occur to you

It just did. I don't know. It's brilliant. It's absolutely brilliant. It's been bugging me for ages

And I've asked a few friends of mine that are chefs, and they've kind of looked it up, and I said

I don't want to know. I'm going to wait and ask you. So they found an answer did they you think Yeah but I refused to get it to you Because one of my strangest experiences on social media back in the days when Twitter wasn a racist sewer but

it still had moments of epic madness. I can't even remember what the context was

but I did a quick search on breakfast items. I think David Frost was going off to

conduct a negotiation, and the Daily Telegraph wrote with a straight face that he'd had a patriotic

breakfast. And I remember thinking, oh, Lord, we're absolutely doomed My late father's old paper is writing with a straight face

about some half-witted negotiator who's only got the job because he disappeared halfway up Boris Johnson's fundament

He's off to conduct negotiations with a crack squad of actual experts

and we're sending David Frost. But don't worry, he had a patriotic breakfast

And he was laid with a pig. Well, that's what I did. I spent a few seconds Googling each breakfast item

and worked out one of them came from ancient Samaria, one of them came from ancient Egypt

The first people to cure pork were probably, I don't know, Babylonians or something

And they all went nuts. They went absolutely boggling. I think even James Cleverley got involved and wrote something like, you're better than this

And I thought, I'm Googling breakfast items, James Cleverley. Do you not know me at all

I'm better than this. Anyway, I digress. The answer might be there

It might not have been us that decided it, but you still want to know who it was and why. So why is the pig the king of breakfast products

Yeah. Even a black pudding is pig's blood. It is. Yeah, yeah. How bizarre

I mean, eggs don't count. It comes from a chicken, but we don't eat the chicken. We just eat the eggs. Yeah, you're right

You're right. How bizarre. Pretty much all the most classic items, certainly all the meat-based items at breakfast

all come from the pig. Why is that? Yeah. Perfect. Absolutely brilliant question

Two absolute corkers, actually, so far today. And it's only 12.15. James O'Brien on LBC

It's top 17 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

Bacon, sausages, black pudding, anything else? I mean there are obviously other things on your breakfast plate that are not part of a pig

or haven't been processed from a pig but generally speaking the only meat you're going to find is pig Why

And how do buildings get buried? From a sort of archaeological perspective

What is the process by which something that stands tall and proud one moment is six feet under the next

Lani is in Peckham. Lani, question or answer? Hey, Lani. Oh, I see what you've done there. Very clever. I can guess what your question is

There you go, James. You've got the question then. Thank you very much. When people come on the radio and they're saying hello to the presenter, why do they say their own name

yep that's the question James and it only happens on the radio

you never call your cousin and say hey Lani or hi James instead of saying their name

well I mean you're obviously a pretty cool customer because you've come on and done

quite a clever joke really that has a little bit of subs

so you're clearly quite confident but if you were nervous like really nervous and

I said hello Lani you'd go oh hello Lani Oh, do you see

I think it's just nerves, isn't it? I think so, but you do meet some people sometimes when you're nervous

Like, let's say if you're going for an interview, you're nervous, but you're not going to call the interviewer by their name, would you

Are you sure? Yeah, well, I've never done that, but I've done that on the radio

The first time I rang Nick, Nick Abbott, I called him by my name

And he said, no, you're learning, I'm Nick. But I've been to interviews, so I'm very nervous

but I don't call the interviewer by my name. I think you're right

but I mean, would you do that? It depends on the context as well

I mean literally, you're waiting outside you're really, really nervous, they open the door

and they go, hello Lani and you go, oh hello Lani, I think it could happen

I think it could happen at an interview you don't have the guillotine in the way that you do here

you're on the radio, you're on hold I don't know what you hear, what do you hear when you're on hold

Everything else which everyone else is saying so you can hear the presenter talk. Yeah, you can hear the person, yeah

I suppose I should have been able to work that out, particularly after 22 years in the job. But anyway, every day is a school day

So you're listening to this, and you're getting a little bit nervous, and you know what your name is, and you know what my name is

and then you come on around and go, hello. I think, I mean, yeah, all right. I think it could happen in other contexts

But if we want an answer that's more sophisticated than nerves, then we're going to have to either find proof

that it happens in other contexts or come up with something that's radio-specific, aren't we

Yep, that's correct, James. You're expecting me to say your name, aren't you, when you come on

So that name is in your head, maybe, in a way that it wouldn't be at an interview. I love it, though. I like it. And well played

I think that's the first time the question has been included in the joke that the caller made when he came on the radio

So well done, James. No, not you. It's 20 minutes after 12

I'm here all week. I'm here all week. 20 minutes after 12. 03456060973 is the number you need

Daniel is in Exeter. Daniel, question or answer? Hello there, James. I'm going to continue with the niche questions this week

I was in Norway a couple of weeks ago. I travelled on a couple of trains

On board the train before we got to stations, it was telling us how many metres above sea level

each station is. So we'll go, we're just, and the next stop will be Kidderminster

which is 463 feet above sea level. So for instance, Lillestrom, I can tell you

is 109 metres above sea level. I knew that. And I have a photo of that

and I posted it on Blue Sky because I figured that nobody would believe me if I said Norwegian trains

displayed how many metres above sea level each station is. So it's on a sign

but they don't... You know at the end of each carriage there's a digital display

Oh, it comes up on the digital display so it's on the digital version of the tannoy

Yeah. That's a brilliant question. What I like about this is that

everyone's trying to work it out. And to add to this, I'm a railway journalist

I have no idea why this information is useful for passengers. If I had my time again

I'd either be an archaeologist or a railway journalist, I think. Do you follow all the disused railway websites and stuff like that

How excited do you get when you go to the three bridges in Hanwell

Have you been there? Yeah, I mean, I've done some rare track

I've gone to a recycling centre outside Newport on a rail tour

I love all this. Have you been to the one at Ealing? Have you been to that electric one yet at West Ealing

Not yet, but you should join the... If you're interested in disused railways or rare tracks and things like this..

I'm mad for them. And this is not an advert, you should join the Branchline Society

Is that what it's called? Yeah. You're on, I will. This is how I keep my algorithms wholesome as well

This is the content I'm here for. I love that. Is it, do you think, skiing

I don't know. I don know because I was just outside I was not very far outside of Oslo so it not particularly mountainous bits of Norway Does it give you an indication of how likely it is to be snowing

It doesn't, really, does it? No. It doesn't. How far you are from the fjords

I can't think of any reason why passengers would want to know

how many metres above sea level the next station is. Maybe it's just in the spirit of mystery hour

and it's just a choice bit of information for people to enjoy. I have no idea

but I'd like to know please James if you could find out It's an absolute corker

Why on earth do they display the sea level of stations or towns

on the Norwegian Railway Network Thank you, I like that one a lot

It is 12.23 Cheers Daniel Maria's in Brixton Question or answer? Question

Hi James So my question is why is it that when you're looking for something

and it's right in front of you, you can't see it? Why does your brain not see it or your eyesight doesn't see it

I know this. It's because you're a man. At least that's how it works in our house

I don't know what it's like in yours, but in our house, as the only man in the house

I seem to be the only person who suffers from this particular condition. Well, I'm a woman

Oh, rats. Flipping heck, I'm getting bad at this. Well, I'm wondering if it's to do with age

because I don't know. It just happened to me just now. I'm looking for my glass

Well, not my glasses, but a glass that had tea in it. I couldn't see it. And it was on the mantel, you know, on the kitchen counter

Couldn't see it for the life of me. You've looked through it, don't you? I left and came back and was like, oh, there it is

And there's no one in the house playing tricks on you? No one in the house. And it's like, is it an age thing

Or does our brain just... You know, you hear the saying, you can't see the wood for the tree

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just wondering if there was a medical term or is it just..

No, I like it. Does it happen to everyone? Do you think it's happening to you more as you age

I think so, yeah. Do you ever go into the kitchen and forget what you went in for

All the time? Yeah. That's not a male thing. I like this question because I think I was always like this

I think I was like this as a kid. I think my mum used to get as frustrated with me as my wife does now

You just walk into a room and go, No, don't see it. Don't see that. I'm more of a..

I look at individual things. Like, it's not that, it's not that. Oh, you actually work your way through it and you still miss it

Yeah, I still don't see it. So you go candlestick, potpourri, scented candle

Yeah. Oh, and then somehow you've missed the... Oh, I quite like that

because that moves it probably into the realms of psychology, doesn't it? Maybe, yeah

We shall find out. Why can you not see things that are right under your nose

0345 6060973 is the number that you need. Is it the tree forest paradox or has Alex just made that up

I don't know. Scott's in Clydebank. Scott, question or answer? That's a question, James

Carry on. So why does fresh air make you feel more tired

Does it actually make you feel more tired? So if I spend the day in the park with my kids or in the garden

you're fine. You can come in your home, you have a good night's sleep. But if we go to the seaside for the day

we spend the day having a picnic on the beach you always have a better sleep

why is that? Yeah so it's either going to be something to do with the oxygen levels

or something to do with the exertion that you're not really noticing

at the time because you're in unfamiliar surroundings Yeah I thought of the exertion part

of it but we'll have a picnic on the beach and we'll have a walk along the beach

whereas at home we'll take the dogs for a walk So you haven't done that If you had a step counter, we can be fairly confident

that they're going to be coming in at more or less the same level. You're doing much more than you would normally do

But you're spending the day at the beach and you feel more tired. Yeah, pull up a chair. I think I might know

Chair is pulled. Right. You know when you go on a journey to somewhere new

and it feels longer getting there than it does coming back? Yeah

It happened to me the other day and I walked up the c further. I went to a different bit to where I normally go

And I thought, well, I better go back now. And I got back 10 minutes before I needed to because it felt

do you know what I mean? You know what I mean. Yeah, yeah. I think that is because processing new information

takes a mental toll on us. Or no, it involves a mental or a psychic exertion

that we do not have when we're sitting in highly, highly familiar surroundings

It may even involve part of the answer to Marie's question, about why we can't see things that are right under our noses

If you're in very familiar surroundings, I think part of your brain goes into autopilot

and that is not taxing. It saves mental energy, right? And then when you go to unfamiliar areas like the park

even if you go there quite a lot, I bet it doesn't happen as much if you go there every day

but unfamiliar areas, your brain is working to process new information, and that actually makes you tired

That actually does involve exertion, which is why you're more tired at the end of the day

So James has been in touch to say, I live by the sea and I have rubbish sleep

but that actually proves my point because, of course, that's his normal..

He's not processing any new information when he's at home because it's where he lives by the sea

whereas you and me, our brains would be going, oh, look at that seagull. Oh, wow, look at that lovely little island over there

I've never noticed that before. Perhaps I'll have an ice cream. And therefore we become tired

That's good, isn't it? That's good, isn't it? That's pretty good, yeah. I think that's pretty good

I'm not going to take a round of applause, though. I'm going to leave it on the board. Why does..

Fresh air, would it happen if we were at a museum? I think it would, you know

I think if you went round a museum, Scott, you'd be a bit more tired at the end of the day

than you would if you were just wandering around your house. No? No

I thought I'd offended you. It's coming up to half past 12

Why were you suggesting I'm not the sort of man that goes to a museum on a regular basis

That's one of the best answers I've given in a long while. Do you know what? I might give myself the game this week

If that turns out, that's a cracker, isn't it? You're processing new information so you get a bit tired

It'll probably turn out to have something to do with ions or something or ozone or the fact that you're breathing more

I don't know. It is coming up to half past 12. Amelia Cox has your headlines

The Domestic Abuse Commissioner has warned... James O'Brien on LBC. James O'Brien

It is 12.33 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

James, you're sounding a bit old talking about disused railways. No offence, says Sasha

I am, but I'll tell you how old I felt yesterday. This is unbelievable

I don't think this has probably happened to many people. so someone's arranging a reunion for my school right for for for my house at my school and

and I was looking at it and it puts the date on that you left so the house begins say with a with

a with an f and the year you left is afterwards so it would say James O'Brien f90 you know that's

the house you were in and you left in the year 1990 so I'm looking at it and I've

That can't be right. And I even get my pen out and I start doing a little calculation

Because it says, Joe Bloggs, F21. And I thought, if he left school in 1921, then he was 18 in 1921

Then he must be 124 now. Or 34 even. He can't have left school in..

That must be a typo. There's no way. If he was 19, if he was 18 in 1921, how old is he now

So he's 104 plus 18, right? He's 122 years old. I said to Eleanor, Eleanor, come here

There's a bloke at my... Oh, just before she came over to my desk

I realised that he'd left school in 2021. That's old, Sasha. That's old

Having an enthusiasm for disused railways, that's not old. I was like, I could have had that when I was a kid

But, yeah, seeing the figure 21 and just presuming it's not recognised anyway

I digress. Paul's in High Wycombe. Paul, question or answer? Hi, James. Question

Carry on. So I'd like to know whether TV quiz shows edit the answers from the contestants

Because you always seem to get a lot longer to answer than the contestants on telly

which makes you sound and seem smart when you shout the answer out. Not on all shows

Not on all shows. A good one's House of Games. I knew you were going to say House of Games

on the picture smash round. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely that. You sit there and you think

sometimes they get it really quickly and sometimes it's really obvious what it is

And it takes them ages. So do they insert pauses? I mean, probably they do

Who's going to know? I wonder if Richard's listening at the moment. Richard won't ring in, because every time I see him

I ask him, why have I never been on House of Games? I'd be brilliant at it. I could do those picture smashes with my eyes shut

Well, obviously not literally with my eyes shut. That would be truly impossible. But why do you think

Do you think they might be doing it to draw you in, to make you enjoy the experience more, because you sometimes beat the contestants

I think that's exactly it. Could be, couldn't it? Or it might just be an edit. It might just, you know, the game has finished

before they've run out of time. No, that wouldn't be it, would it? Because they'd just stick another round on the end

is it only on Richard Osman's House of Games that this happens

because I think for me that's the only time it happens, be honest with me

yeah, it's the one I've noticed the most because it doesn't happen on Mastermind

does it? No, no but that's times it doesn't happen on University Challenge no

I thought, I get a little note about your question I thought you were going to ask why

it's so much easier to do it when you're sitting at home than it is when you're on the telly

And then I was going to draw on my experiences on University Challenge when I had some sort of minor panic and didn't answer anything

whereas at home I'd be shouting out answers like it was going out of fashion. And yet on Mastermind I was absolutely golden

I was flying. Answer Smash it's called, isn't it? Not Picture Smash. Yeah, Answer Smash, yeah

I mean, you're going to have to work on the programme, aren't you, to tell us that

It's going to have to be someone who can tell us categorically that, yeah, they do insert pauses on Answer Smash

Or they don't. I love that. Nice one. You and me both on that one

12.37 is the time. Thank you, Paul. I mean, I'll leave it as a generic TV quiz show question

but we all know we're talking about the answer smash on Richard Osman's House of Games

Do they insert pauses before some of the answers? Because there's four of them

And you're sitting there going, it's... I now need to think of something like... Colin

Colin! No! Think of an answer to the answer smash. So you've got a picture and a person

So, Andrew Murray Mint, you'll be going, it's Andrew Murray Mint, it's Andy Murray Mint

How can you not know that it's Andy Murray Mint? And then, because there's four of them not getting it

you begin to think, I've had exactly the same experience as Paul, watching television, watching that programme

but I don't think I've ever had it with any other quiz. James is in Manchester. James, question or answer

It's a question, James. Carry on. So, I've got a cherry tree in my front garden next to a pine tree

and the pine tree is about 12 years old and the cherry tree is about six years old

which I planted. Never bought cherries. It will. It's been a nightmare

This was a terrible year for fruit, but you'll get cherries. I barely got a damson off mine

but you'll get cherries. Hang in there. I've not had anything off it for six years. Yeah, but it takes a while

It takes a while to bed in. Yeah, true. But the pine tree has kind of receded

where the cherry tree is exploding. so I was wondering if there's like a hierarchy of trees

I've got a beech in front of that cherry tree. Oh, that's very fancy

Oh, a beech tree. Yeah, and it's struggling a conifer, and both of them are fighting for space

like the branches are intertwined. But with the pine tree, it's kind of receded

where it's allowed the cherry tree to dominate, even though it's half its age. So we're thinking that the cherry tree

might be getting all the water, I suppose. Could be. I can't think what else it will

Or all the light. I mean, it's an evergreen, isn't it? Yeah. The pine tree

And I've just noticed, we've got another tree. I don't know what the other tree is, but it's struggling next to us garden

and they've got some kind of pine. And it stopped growing, the pine stopped growing where this

our trees enter in the garden. So I was wondering if there's like some kind of hierarchy of..

Of trees. Well, it would involve... It can't be anything other than access to water and or light, can it

So depending on how deep the roots go or something like that, the cherry tree's getting all the water

and it doesn't get, it doesn't go, well, listen to me, flipping Terry Nutkins

I mean I got no idea have I But I just thinking those are the things that determine tree growth So if you introduce a cherry tree and the pine tree starts suffering then the cherry tree must be getting stuff that the tree

pine tree wants, and the only stuff that trees want generally would be carbon dioxide

that's going to not change, water or light, light, probably, so it's probably water

Possibly. But you know what the only thing is? This is like Radio 4, this is, this is like

Gardiner's Question, this is like Gardiner's Question time. You should have come on, you should have gone, it's James from the Chilton Cum Hardy allotments society

But I've got a cherry tree in a pot in the back garden and that has had loads of cherries

But it's kept really small. Oh no, we really are turning it into gardener's question time now

I'll get you an answer about the pine tree. I don't know why your cherry tree isn't fruiting. Maybe the

pine tree is still getting enough to actually keep the cherry tree from fruition. There you go. That's today's

lesson. That's where the word fruition comes from. I'd never noticed that before. Bearing fruit. Fruition

There you go. You see? No, just me? All right. Thank you, James

Steve's in Chichester. Steve, question or answer? Answer, James. Carry on, Steve

It's the answer to why buried remains are buried. Yes. Yeah, and the answer is there are about a dozen or more answers

and it really does depend on the country you're in. But the Alice Roberts programme talked about digging in Britain

so I'll just confine this to Britain. Yeah. There are two major causes

Worms and weather. Worms and weather. Worms and weather, yeah, that's it

Give yourself a tin. Are you laughing at me or with me, Steve

Oh, I'm with you, of course. It's not worms and weather, is it

No, it is, but it's what's generally called Natural deposition, which means all sorts of different things like wind or flooding

Flooding can deposit. Plants and vegetation can do it. Worms can do it

Even educated fleas do it. But the second major one, in this country at least

is just humankind, really. If there's one building, people tend to knock them down

and build another one over the top of it. Of course. That dislodges the ground levels

especially in modern times, of course. Yeah. But natural disasters are another

I mean, Pompeii is a good example that everybody knows of. Of course. But that's not in Britain, of course

So there are lots and lots of reasons there. Qualifications? I've got a Master's in Archaeological Science

and I'm a retired archaeological geophysicist. Does that mean you scan what's underground

It does. It means I map out what's there underneath the ground

using scientific instruments. How amazing. And I had to give it up because my career was in ruins

When you were at university, did you stay in the Hall of Residence

or did you have to find your own digs? Baroma! I'll use that one

You can have that one for nothing. One thing that does intrigue me a little is

because it touched on this with the questioner, with Peter, presumably it has to kind of become a ruin before it gets buried

So the walls have to fall down almost always before it will be brought down

So I suppose what I want to know is that the tallest building you found underground in your career

Because I don't think there would be any or many. Well, yes, but not in this country

The tallest one was many tens of metres high, which were city walls in Turkmenistan

Wow, really? but they still got buried via the same processes but they were proper high

well of course it's very much desert and mud yeah yeah yeah

it flies around what a fascinating job brilliant answer I've got a little one for you

go on yeah please I used to be a guy somewhere called Fishbourne Roman Palace

which is the largest Roman building north of the Alps and And one day I got a question from a little schoolboy saying

please, sir, why did the Romans live underground? It's a perfectly logical question, isn't it

I love that. Beautiful. Have a round of applause, Steve. Lovely. A very, very lovely answer to that

It's a really good question, actually. 12.45 is the time. Coming up at one on LBC

James O'Brien on LBC. 48 years of time, Mystery Hour continues. Let's get some answers up very briefly

Let me run through the ones that still need them. Why is the pig the source of almost all breakfast meat

Why in Norway do they display the level above sea level, the figure above sea level that every railway station is

Why, when you are looking for something that is right under your nose

can you sometimes not see it? why do you get more tired when you are, well, either out in fresh air or in unfamiliar places

or possibly both? Do they insert pauses on TV quiz shows, brackets, Richard Osmond's House of

Games, before the answer is provided? And do trees fight for water? So is James's pine tree

struggling because he planted a cherry tree very near to it I got what was Lani question Why do people ringing radio stations say their own name when they get on air and are saying hello to the presenter So instead of saying hello James they might say hello

Someone called Lani might say hello, Lani. Sean's in Stone in Staffordshire. Sean, question or answer

It's an answer, please. Go on, mate. To the game show question

Yes, yes. Now, I can only speak to my own experience, so not for the House of Games thing

but I was on Catchphrase many years ago. Roy Walker or Stephen

Is it Stephen Mulhern these days? He seems to do everything. Is it Stephen? No, it was Roy Walker

and it's one that you've probably seen. Actually, it comes up on YouTube and Facebook all the time

the Snake Charmer episode, if you've ever seen it. Yes, it was easily misconstrued

Yes. There was no edits in that at all. When we finally sat around as a family to watch it

all of the pauses were actually excruciating as they were, and the answers that were answered quickly were answered quickly too

So I can only answer for that, but it looked like it was pretty much dead on. There were no inserted pregnant pauses on that particular show

I mean, you're kind of viral celebrity then, aren't you? Oh, yeah, I can't walk down the street

No, but you know what I mean? That is one of the... I mean, something happened on this programme years ago

when we were doing a quiz, and one of the questions was how many kings have been called Henry

and this lovely lady rang in and she went, oh, James, she said, well, I know there was Henry V

and I know there was Henry VIII. She said, is it three

And that's like your clip. Whenever someone's been in books, whenever there's a roundup of comedy quiz answers

that always makes the grade. And your appearance on Catchphrase does as well

Were you the contestant that was looking at that? Yes. It's all of you, isn't it

Yeah, of course. Oh, that's sensational. There it is. I'm looking at it now. You're a big lad, Sean

aren't you? Not as much anymore. I didn't mean wide, I meant tall

Or was the lady next to you just quite short? Oh no, that's terrible. Absolutely terrible, that one

And you get an amazing round of applause. Thank you very much. That's sensational

And I can't say much else about that clip, really. But I think you've got

enough information there. Thank you, Sean. Mike's in Cradley, Cradley Heath. Listen to that. You know where I grew up, Mike

Yes, I know where you grew up. I've called you before. I thought so. You know, they've put a phonetic spelling of Cradley on the screen

in case I forget how to spell it, in case I don't know how to say it. It's just ridiculous, isn't it

Flipping a K-R-A-Y-D-L-E-E for Cradley, Cradley. People keep saying Cradley. I know they do

Well, obviously, I work with a bunch of Southerners, so that's what they thought I was going to say. Question or answer, Mike

It's an answer to the meat question. Love it. Right, well, it was, in the 13th century

people did have tons of meat on their breakfast. Kings liked to show off their meaty breakfast

before going out for a hunt or before war. Ah, yes. Sign of wealth. A sign of wealth

Yes, exactly. And a sign of showing off. But it wasn't until the 19th century

when a General Montgomery, sort of unofficially the first influencer, said that for his breakfast he would like a pork sausage

bacon, eggs, tomatoes and mushrooms. Black pudding was not part of the original full Monty

which is where it gets its name from. I didn't know that. Wow

Yeah. And that is where it caught on from that moment on

was the full Monty or the full English. Yeah. And they've messed about subsequently with beans and mushrooms and stuff

Yeah, and thrown the black pudding in because it tastes the same as the sausage and the bacon, so the tastes go well together

It's the pork sausage and the bacon. It all goes back to General Montgomery. Yeah, the first ever person

and his soldiers called it the full Monty in honour of him. I love that

I know the answer to the next question, because you've told me before, haven't you? But what are your qualifications

I actually ran a YouTube channel on this, and it was only a few weeks ago

so it was my 150th video, and I put it on there as the history

Because you do a history of food YouTube channel. I do indeed

What's it called? Boston British Fittal. Boston, I mean, if anyone was under any doubt

about whether or not you came from the black country. I think they've just been absolutely eradicated

Boston, British, Fiddle. And you can find also... Do you know something I've noticed recently

Oh, go on. The pork scratching is making a comeback. Oh, Sclussell

Yes. I mean, my local shops have all got proper pork scratching as well

There was a period when they went through sort of fancy ones. But you're old school, because they quite often come from Cradley

Is there a factory near you? or is there a post? Not that I'm aware of

but I do know areas like Blackheath and Cradley still do some old-fashioned Black Country dishes

Yes. Yeah, they do grape peas and bacon. You can get bread pudding, all that sort of stuff

Bread pudding's delicious, isn't it? gots, they're all there. gots as well

Had those at the Black Country Museum on a little boat ride once. Right, Mike, Boston British Fiddle, round of applause

Thank you. Thank you. I never knew that about the breakfasts. Rory's in Horsham. Rory, question or answer

Answer to the competing trees. That was the name of my... No, carry on, Rory

So, you know when you go for a walk and you come to me..

Hang on, phone line's gone funny. Not your fault. Liz is on the... The Bridge of Weir. I say you're on the Bridge of Weir

You're in the Bridge of Weir. James, I am, and I'm a big fan

Well, you're very kind. Question or answer? The train question... The answer to the train question, James

Yes. Yes. So, I've been on that train that gives the above sea level all the time. So it comes from Bergen to Oslo

It's a fabulous train journey. It lasts seven or eight hours. You should do it. It's fantastic

But it goes over the mountains And who doesn want to know how high up you are when you travelling over the mountains If you travel on another train into Oslo

it's not going to tell you how far above sea level you are

Is it not? No. But if you travel from Bergen to Oslo

you go up over the mountains. It might be the Kellymark Mountains

but I might be wrong on that. Wow. And it's where all the cabins are and where all the snow is

so you can be up in the snow in the mountains on the train

So it's just helpful, it's just interesting information. I think it's just interesting information

I'll check with my son-in-law to make sure I'm correct. I'm going to give you a round of applause either way, Liz

That's lovely, isn't it? Oh, thank you. Because, I mean, to be fair, if we were to deploy

either Occam's razor or Sherlock Holmes' famous mantra that you eliminate the impossible, whatever you are left

I mean, it's hard to think what other reason there could be except just as sort of, here's some interesting information for you

Yeah, exactly. You're 140 feet in the air, metres, metres in the air

Love it. If you go up a mountain, you want to know how far up you are, don't you

You certainly do, what most people do, I imagine. I love that. Nice one. I'd like to go to Norway one day

Oh, you must. I'm going there in a couple of weeks. It's a great place

Is your son-in-law a fan of A-Hard, you know? He is. I thought he might be

One of my favourite bands. So there, what a small world. Thank you, Liz

Rory, back to Rory and Horsham, or Horry and Rorsham, if you prefer

The trees, the trees, the trees. Yeah, can you hear me OK now? That's great, mate. Carry on

OK, cool. So if you ever notice how some trees, grass grows around the trunk of the tree on the floor

but other trees, there's nothing. And that is because, as well as the water

the carbon dioxide and the light, the trees have to extract minerals from the earth

and every tree has a symbiotic relationship with a certain fungus that's under the ground that helps it to do that, basically

And the different fungi, sometimes they kill off other plants around them

So it could be that the cherry tree is killing, or the fungus that's working with the cherry tree

is slowly killing the other tree. So that's just my... And also, the fact that they're competing at all

might explain why it hasn't fruited. Yes, exactly. It's very stressful. That's what I mean

The plants around us are fighting for their lives the whole time. And so there's no way that a pine tree and a cherry tree

would have occurred naturally, probably. Yeah, could be the case as well

Because he's planted the cherry tree recently. Is there a word for that

Isn't there a tree when they circle around a tree that other trees can live in or something

Anyway, it doesn't matter. What are your qualifications? I can't do that. I studied biology at university

with a lot of plant biology thrown in. That's lovely. The tree of knowledge, Rory

the tree of knowledge or the knowledge of trees in your case have a round of applause on me

i love that i love that answer actually i didn't know that about the symbiotic fungi

um that was a no it wasn't leo is in catering leo question or answer answer james carry on leo

um so this is for the why do we miss things that are right under our nose yes um so it's a thing

called inattentive blindness is it um so it's the exact same reason why you actually don't see your

knows um in that your your brain sort of filters out um any any information that's predictable or

unnecessary for you to know because otherwise there would be so many things your brain was

trying to process at once that it wouldn't be able to deal with it now the reason why you sometimes

it sometimes misfires and you can't find the thing that you're looking for is is sort of along that

same process so um it's it's really common in people um as they get older particularly uh

females going through the menopause with brain fog or in people with adhd inattentive or combined

type um it's a it's basically a dysregulation in that well what a brilliant answer what are

your qualifications so i'm a student paramedic but i've got adhd so i've fallen down a lot of

of ADHD research rabbit holes whilst procrastinating my education. While putting off your paramedic studies

I love it. That's great. And good luck with the studies, Leo. Round of applause

Thank you. No, thank you. And a very close second place, Leo, there, for the game

But I'm going to give it to Stephen Chichester, the retired geophysicist, because I just thought that was a lovely answer

and really detailed. And he threw in that little joke from the schoolboy as well about the Romans living underground

So it is all there. I think he's just answered a question as to why

for about a year and a half I could not find the key

to a car and yet when I found it, it was in exactly the place where I always

put keys and I looked and looked and looked for this key and could

with a massive fob attached to it, couldn't find it. Menopause brain

Which means I owe Mrs O'Brien an apology. Yes you do, always. Well generally, that's the sort of figure. Just one massive one

state of being, because whenever I can't find them... You blame her? No. The first

thing she says is, have you looked in the place? So I say, I can't find my keys

and she'll say, have you looked in the keypot? And I'll go, oh no, I haven't looked in the keypot

for my keys. Of course I haven't, that's why I'm asking you. But there is obviously

a strong chance at that. Well, mine were in the keypot. If you miss any

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it's Tom Swarbrick, but now it's time for Keeler Fogarty. Keelos Fogarty

Thank you, James