Up next in 10
I'm haunted by what we've been told about Britain's defence | James O’Brien - The Whole Show
Jun 13, 2026
This is a catch-up version of James O'Brien's live, daily show on LBC Radio from the 12th of June, 2026. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #jamesobrien #politics #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:00
It's four minutes after ten, you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
0:07
There's a clip of me somewhere, not from here, from Have I Got News For You
0:11
describing Elon Musk as a Bond villain in Waiting. I'm beginning to feel like Cassandra, I really am
0:18
At the time, I think everybody thought he was a relatively innocuous character, but maybe not, I must have got the idea from somewhere
0:24
It just occurred to me listening to the news bulletin there and looking at his continuing amplification
0:29
of what is, I think, pretty close to stochastic terrorism. I'll look at the definition of that word a little later
0:36
or those words a little later in this programme. But I don't think there's a phone in there
0:40
because if I said to you, is Nigel Farage indulging in stochastic terrorism
0:43
when he chooses his words very carefully and provokes violence, then I don't think there's a debate
0:52
It's a funny one. But quite why he's not coming in for more round-beard condemnation
0:58
is a question for the ages. I mean, it's easy to answer in some quarters and corners
1:03
but not in others. But stochastic terrorism is a pretty hefty step
1:07
upon the path to the really, really bad stuff. And it's now happening in plain sight on all our news platforms
1:15
But I don't think anyone can debate it. I mean, the debate would be, do you like it or not
1:18
I love the stochastic terrorism. I love seeing the fires in Belfast
1:22
I love seeing the various weirdos and criminals in Southampton lobbying stuff at the police
1:29
But I don't think there's a debate. Of course it's stochastic terrorism. But we're not going to talk about that
1:35
Of course we're not going to talk about that first up this morning. We're going to talk about defence
1:41
But we're going to do it in a way that may be tricky, but I think is probably the only honest way to do it
1:46
It's certainly the only patriotic way to do it. We're going to detach in the first instance
1:52
because, look, make no mistake, this is absolutely disastrous for Keir Starmer
1:57
To lose one defence minister may be considered a misfortune, but to lose two is at the very least careless
2:04
It's disastrous. I mean, there is such a miasma of failure around his premiership at the moment
2:11
that you just don't know whether Healy and Carnes would have walked the plank
2:16
if Starmer's position wasn't already close to terminal. I don't know. They are never going to say so
2:22
You'll have to wait for the memoirs. But once you have that feeling in the air
2:28
and listen, I don't know whether it's something you like or something you don't like
2:33
It doesn't matter. You can't deny that the feeling is in the air. You may think it's horribly unfair
2:37
but you can't deny that the feeling is in the air. Then everything changes
2:43
All of the calculus changes. the political calculus changes. You make a decision, shall I resign
2:48
if you're in a cabinet led by an effective and popular prime minister
2:53
The question of whether or not you should resign is very different from the question of whether or not
2:58
you should resign when the prime minister is or is perilously close to being a lame duck
3:04
a lame duck prime minister. I don't know, actually. That's not by far, miles away from being
3:11
the most interesting element of this entire conversation, but the point stands
3:19
The point is worth making. Would they have gone? So people are comparing it to Michael Heseltine's resignation
3:25
as a defence, but I say people. I think it may have been a headline in the Telegraph
3:29
so I probably shouldn't have paid too much attention to it. But Heseltine resigned from Thatcher's cabinet
3:34
when Thatcher was in her pomp over Westland, wasn't it? and his battle with, I think, with Leon Britton
3:44
I did an A-level project on this, but my memory's a little bit patchy. And so I don't know that comparisons are valid
3:50
but it is a point of principle. I suspect that when Ben Wallace stepped down
3:54
as Secretary of State for Defence, it was for reasons similar to John Healy, but he didn't feel the need to say so
4:00
because of where we were in the electoral cycle and possibly the sort of political calculus being different
4:07
as I just mentioned. So the thing I think it is important to do differently is actually in the first instance
4:15
having acknowledged that Starmer is in absolutely hideous trouble and probably toast, almost certainly toast
4:23
depending partly on what happens in Makerfield. But it's not a partisan conversation, this. It's a patriotic conversation
4:34
Do you remember sometimes when we come off the back of PMQs and we reflect upon how it used to be relatively normal
4:41
for the two main party leaders to unite on issues of national interest and national security
4:48
We see occasional glimpses of it now, but Kemi Badenot, bless her
4:53
can't really ever bring herself to do anything that would be considered supportive of Keir Starmer
4:59
You know, if Keir Starmer discovered a cure for the common cold, Kemi Badenot would complain that he hadn't found Shergar
5:07
If Keir Starmer discovered the philosopher's stone that allows us to turn base metal into gold
5:15
Kemi Badenot would complain that Lord Lucan was still missing. I mean it is brilliant
5:20
I think she's absolutely wonderful. I cannot tell you. You'd have to speak to Eleanor to understand just how much I love her
5:29
I think she's fantastic. Every time she appears on the television or the radio
5:33
I turn everything else off, I put my phone away, I just sit there basking in a sort of warm glow of epic admiration
5:40
If I had one scintilla of Kemi Badenoch's self-belief, I'd be Pope
5:47
I'd be Pope now. If I had one ounce of her self-regard and self-belief
5:52
that confidence, that utterly baseless confidence, I reckon I could be Pope
5:57
Even though I'm married with children, I reckon I could pull it off. I reckon, well, I could certainly, well, maybe I'm
6:03
if I had one ounce of Cammie Bain and not self-belief, I would have convinced myself that I could be Pope
6:09
and that I'd be a very good Pope, and that I should be Pope, and that I would be Pope if it wasn't for you pesky kids
6:16
I think she's magnificent. And it just gets better and better and better. This is extraordinary detachment from observable reality
6:23
How can you not envy that? Imagine living a life untrammeled by facts and observable evidence
6:28
anyway that's not what we're talking about we're talking about defense and we're talking about the
6:35
fact that the only patriotic position to adopt is the sane one which recognizes defense ministers
6:42
all agree after 10 minutes in the department that we need loads more money spending on defense they
6:49
all do whatever well it's only labor or conservative at the moment but they all agree on that and then
6:56
prime ministers don't give them what they want. And again, I mean, this goes back a very long time
7:03
I don't think this is one of those problems that you can apportion entirely or blame entirely on
7:10
the conservative inheritance. I really don't. I think Starmer, obviously, in Healy's resignation
7:17
letter, has chosen categorically and clearly not to meet the pledge that he'd made to NATO
7:23
the letter is pretty unequivocal so yes they inherited a mess but the decision not to take money from Peter to give it to Paul in the Ministry of Defence that has been taken
7:36
I think you'd have to be pretty daft not to think that Rachel Reeves has prevailed
7:43
Rachel Reeves has triumphed over John Healy. I think it's obvious, and pretty much Occam's razor
7:52
the only really realistic explanation. of what has gone on. And the thing for me on a morning like this
8:03
is we actually don't know. So if you set aside partisanship, I'm quite proud of the fact that if we were having this conversation
8:14
after a Conservative Secretary of State for Defence had resigned, we'd be having exactly the same conversation
8:20
I think it's pathetic, and I use that word carefully. It's absolutely pathetic to try to turn everything into partisan politics
8:29
unless you're Kami Beda not, who's magnificent. But for anybody else, trying to turn everything into partisan politics
8:35
utterly denies the existence of the national interest. Do you see what I mean
8:40
You should want, as I did, Rishi Sunak to do all right as Prime Minister
8:45
because you care about the country that he's leading. It was harder with Johnson and Trust
8:50
because that would be a bit like wishing for Father Christmas to visit in June. You kind of know it was never, ever going to happen
8:55
But there's still somewhere inside you. You kind of wanted David Cameron to do OK
9:00
Certainly the first term in 2010, second term having made the promise about the referendum
9:04
and then accidentally winning was less easy, of course, to follow. But we seem to have forgotten
9:10
And I'm guilty of this. Please don't think I'm preaching or lecturing you. But we do seem to have forgotten, don't we
9:18
about the national interest. It's all about the partisan, the party interest
9:23
It's all about getting one over on the other lot, the lefties of whom there are none, really, in this country
9:30
in positions of power at the moment, or the fascists of whom there are loads
9:34
But where we go as a conversation this morning, I think, has to be detached from partisanship
9:43
and focused entirely on the patriotic or the national interest. Because here's the thing, right
9:50
I'm going to ask you a question that I don't think anyone can answer
9:55
What would we spend this money on? You could say drones, right
10:01
Or cyber warfare. But we don't know what that means. Where would the drones go
10:06
So I have a genuine curiosity about who is right. My instincts..
10:15
Good Lord, I thought it was the other way around. I'm doing a heart-head dichotomy, right
10:20
that we often do together. I'm saying my heart goes this way and my head goes that way
10:23
and then we'll have a chat together and try to work out which one is right, your heart or your head
10:29
So I thought that my head would be in favour of more defence spending
10:36
and my heart... I don't know which way round it is. I have to be completely honest with you
10:42
The fact that all of the defence ministers insist, regardless of what party they belong to
10:48
insist that we need more spending, makes me think that they're right
10:52
The fact that they come from both parties persuades me that they must be right
10:56
because we unite so rarely now in this country. But they could have all gone native
11:01
You know, all they ever hear from members of the military as the Secretary of State for Defence is
11:06
we need more money, Minister. We need more money, Secretary of State. We need more money. Al Kahn's said to Nick Ferrari this morning
11:13
the government has not done a good enough job of explaining the risks that we face
11:18
Don't take my word for it. Finding the money is an issue for the Prime Minister
11:22
What we really need is an honest discussion with the population as to where that money needs to come from
11:27
and use really innovative ways and every means possible to get the right money for defence
11:32
But I also challenge back into the defence system to make sure the defence investment plan
11:35
is learning all those lessons from Ukraine and fighting the next war, not the last one
11:39
You say an honest conversation. Just elaborate a bit on that if you would, Miss Cun. Well, I'd like to be, first of all
11:44
in national conversation with the population to just demonstrate the threats that we face
11:48
£15 billion worth of cyber attacks, 30% increase in Russian surface and subsurface activity
11:55
in the High North, a war in the Middle East, a war in Ukraine that's caused more casualties
11:59
than America took in the entire Second World War. The world is an exceptionally dangerous place
12:04
and sometimes I don't think we as government make that message clear and concise to the population
12:09
I mean, he's absolutely right, isn't he? Because one of the things we repeatedly observe on this programme
12:14
is that there are currently no votes in increased defence spending. If there was, then the dichotomy I've described wouldn't exist
12:25
If there were votes in it, if there were loads of votes in it, then previous Conservative Prime Ministers
12:31
and the current Labour Prime Minister would have done it. They would have delivered on the..
12:36
Not all of the demands, but they would have done enough to keep John Healy and Al Karns in post
12:40
Quick, Mayor Culper, I think yesterday's prediction that Al Karns was likely to be eschewing
12:44
for the next Secretary of State for Defence is not going to go down as one of my wisest predictions of all time
12:49
And we probably owe Boris Johnson an apology as well for mocking him after Russia invaded Ukraine
12:55
and his claim that tank warfare was effectively over because there were a hell of a lot of tanks deployed in Ukraine
13:01
but they now last for an average of one and a half days before they're destroyed by drones
13:07
So I think we are in the last gasp. We are in the final chapter of tank warfare, land-based tank warfare
13:15
Drones seem to have changed everything. But Al Kahn's words this morning really haunt me
13:22
Because you and I don't know whether he's right or not. It feels like there's a massive threat
13:29
£15 billion of cyber warfare. Can you put your hand up now and tell me what you spend the money on
13:34
to stop that from happening? shall i wait uh increase in russian activity in in in the north northern hemisphere okay
13:45
why should i be worried about that in kidderminster i mean i kind of know i should but i couldn't explain to my mum why she should
13:56
mum's currently in kidderminster um what else was on the list play it again keith i should
14:01
have taken some notes and then we'll get stuck into the questions. Finding the money is an issue
14:06
for the Prime Minister. What we really need is an honest discussion with the population as to where
14:11
that money needs to come from and use really innovative ways and every means possible to get
14:16
the right money for defence. But I also challenge back into the defence system to make sure the
14:20
defence investment plan is learning all those lessons from Ukraine and fighting the next war
14:24
not the last one. You say an honest conversation. Just elaborate a bit on that if you would
14:27
Well, I'd like to be, first of all, in national conversation with the population to just demonstrate the threats that we face
14:33
£15 billion worth of cyber attacks, 30% increase in Russian surface and subsurface activity in the high north
14:41
a war in the Middle East, a war in Ukraine that's caused more casualties than America took in the entire Second World War
14:47
The world is an exceptionally dangerous place. And sometimes I don't think we as government make that message clear and concise to the population
14:53
Can you make it clear and concise I mean I don know whether or not this is a bit irresponsible but how would you frighten the population into accepting that we need a hell of a lot more military spending
15:05
Because if you do that, then you make Keir Starmer's job easier. We are nowhere near sufficiently spooked, are we
15:13
I'm not. And I've still got, this is what I mean by heart versus head. Heart says we probably should be, head says I'm not
15:19
Or head says we probably should be, heart says I'm not. £15 billion of cyber attacks on us
15:25
Does anyone know what that did, what that meant? Can anyone remember what that looked like? 0345 6060973
15:31
30% increase in Russian activity in the north. Why should people in Kidderminster care about that
15:37
Obviously they should, right? But the failure to articulate why is what Al-Khans is talking about
15:44
0345 6060973. War in the Middle East. Why would spending more money on British defence
15:48
make the blindest bit of difference to a war we're not involved in? 0345 6060973
15:53
and war in Ukraine which we do support and obviously if we had more stuff to give to
15:59
Volodymyr Zelensky we would be able to give it to him but again it doesn't necessarily make the case
16:05
for epic increases, massive increases in military spending so I don't think this is an irresponsible
16:11
question, what are we supposed to be scared of? What should we be scared of? Because if the population
16:17
were scared, is scared a good word to use? Would you prefer a different
16:21
word? I'm going to go with scared until you come up with a better one
16:26
What are we supposed to be scared of? And detail, specific. You can't just say, Mike
16:31
a murderous fascist criminal is invading an advanced European democracy. We stop it or we live it. I think you're
16:37
right, but that's not going to scare me or my mum or Keith. Keith, are you scared
16:43
Keith's not scared. We should all be scared. This is the topic, right? We should all
16:47
be scared, and we're not. If Putin invaded Guernsey, we'd be scared
16:53
If Putin invaded Guernsey and Keir Starmer announced that he was taking money out of the NHS and putting it into defence
16:58
we'd all go, OK, yeah, fine, I'll have to wait a bit longer for my operation. If Putin invaded Guernsey and Keir Starmer announced that
17:05
I mean, obviously the right wing would be up in arms unless we took money away from disabled people and the truly poor
17:12
but whatever he announced, you know, it's like the church bells, isn't it, and the metal fences
17:17
We're at war. so everyone's going to have to make sacrifices everyone's going to have to pull together
17:21
but we don't think we're at war what would it take to persuade the British public
17:27
that they are imperiled imperiled with an M or in peril with an N
17:33
what would it actually take I genuinely don't know 0345 6060973 I don't know whether we need to be scared
17:41
or educated or both or whether if we were educated properly we'd be scared
17:44
so what should we be scared of What do we need to be educated about
17:50
0345 6060 973. And genuine question, and this is possibly one of those questions
17:56
that might tempt people onto the programme who never thought they'd ring a radio station in their lives
18:03
What would we actually spend this money on? Hit those numbers now, you will get through
18:09
James O'Brien on LBC. Four minutes after ten. So here's a little thing, just a little thing
18:16
Stephen Yaxley-Lennon this week is in Moscow trying to foment violence back in the UK
18:22
He's hanging out with Elon Musk's dad, a man... No, Elon Musk's dad, a man best known for impregnating his own stepdaughter twice
18:29
Hashtag protect our women, hashtag save our girls. And he has shared a post showing a Russian nationalist group
18:37
performing a torch-lit ceremony for Henry Novak, whose own family pleaded with the public
18:46
not to turn his murder into any sort of racialised or political issue
18:53
And that, you know, I don't know who's paying his bills, but that is evidence of a foreign state
18:59
seeking to interfere in our democracy. You look at the scenes in Belfast overnight
19:03
you've got everyone from neo-Nazis to paramilitaries to foreign states and white supremacists
19:09
seeking to cause mayhem, chaos and possibly death on our streets. But the government hasn't left Twitter
19:18
Right? So why am I not more concerned about misinformation and foreign states and neo-Nazis using social media
19:29
to pollute and corrupt British democracy? The answer, because the government is still on the worst platform of all
19:36
I think that I mean I know we had that conversation earlier in the week
19:40
but I think it's even more pertinent today than it was then so why am I not scared
19:45
our cancers or the government has done a rubbish job of telling you that you should be
19:49
deeply concerned if you don't like scared but what's exactly about 15 billion pounds worth of cyber attacks 30
19:56
increase in Russian activity these aren't touching the sides of your concern
20:01
are they? There's a war in the Middle East yeah I know it's all Netanyahu and Trump's fault
20:06
39th time yesterday, Trump announced that he wouldn't be invading Iran after all. I'm not even joking
20:12
There's a war in Ukraine. As quite a few people have pointed out, if Vladimir Putin were to invade Guernsey
20:16
then no doubt Nigel Farage will be on your telly in 10 minutes telling us that we're going to have to just give it up, like he did to the Ukrainians
20:23
when Putin invaded Crimea. I don't know what it is that would harden our resolve
20:32
and make the case for increased defence spending irresistible, because the whole point about the current crisis that Keir Starmer's in
20:38
is that it's not irresistible. It's not irresistible. What should we be concerned about and what would we spend the money on
20:45
Dave's in Edinburgh. Dave, what have you got? Hi, James. How are you doing? I'm all good, mate. What's on your mind
20:51
So, yeah, I work in the financial sector. I work on the IT side of things
20:56
But I'm also slightly involved in the security business on the national level
21:03
um so cyber security kind of yeah kind of yeah i don't really want to go into too many details
21:12
okay um so yeah the situation is that you know from a cyber perspective where we can be quite
21:21
vulnerable you know israel and the cia a few years ago uh unleashed the stuxnet virus that was
21:27
deliberately targeted at Iranian nuclear program and was attempting to degrade that
21:34
by sort of spin up elements of the actual physical production a bit too fast and cause a meltdown
21:43
There's other things that can be targeted at infrastructure remotely. And then you get things like fraud
21:50
that's very much attacking individuals and attempting to defraud them and take their finances
21:58
There's been attacks on the NHS and education systems as well. And, you know, some of these cause greater or lesser disruption
22:10
Some of them cause personal loss. Some of them can cause infrastructure damage
22:15
But they are very real risks. And just because people aren't aware of them
22:20
and because we don't tend to talk about them doesn mean that they not a real threat It doesn mean that they don have real consequences How do we make people feel them more keenly Because that the problem here isn it I think you spend ten minutes in the Ministry of Defence and you feel them
22:37
That's why people like John Healy and Al Carnes and Ben Wallace and others
22:42
all end up entirely native. And the Prime Ministers who don't spend time in the Ministry of Defence
22:49
whether it's Theresa May or Rishi Sunak or David Cameron or Keir Starmer
22:53
we'll leave out the crazy two, they don't feel it. They'll be aware of it
22:58
They'll have people explaining in a lot more detail than you can to them exactly what is going on
23:04
and yet they don't feel the need to spend more money on defence, which means either they don't understand
23:09
that spending more money on defence reduces the chances of us being targeted by a highly sophisticated cyberweapon like Stuxnet
23:16
or they don't believe that spending a lot more money is necessary to protect us from a highly sophisticated cyberweapon like Stuxnet
23:24
So, you know, I'm asking you to persuade my listeners to be more concerned
23:28
In a way, it's Keir Starmer that needs to be. Yeah, I mean, I guess Keir Starmer has always got to juggle a budget, right
23:37
Yes. And the minute he pulls finances from one thing to another
23:41
then he's going to come under immense pressure. Of course he is, but not if Guernsey was invaded
23:46
Are we actually using the vocabulary of ogue war to describe digital war
23:51
So I'm talking about Gerzy being invaded, and you're talking about a highly sophisticated cyber weapon that was designed to sabotage Iran's nuclear program
24:00
And that's the problem, isn't it? Because it operates in the darkness and the shadows. And, you know, people are reluctant to talk about it publicly
24:09
We only talk about it when the effects are felt publicly. And what is the most public effect so far
24:17
of either the £15 billion of cyber attacks, the 30% increase in Russian activity
24:24
the war in the Middle East or the war in Ukraine? Because, I mean, apart from cost of living
24:28
and fuel price increases, which most people won't be looking at when they pull into the forecourt this morning
24:35
they won't be going, oh, flipping heck, damn that Benjamin Netanyahu and Donald Trump
24:39
petrol's gone up again. It's like that connection hasn't been made. It might be partly the fault of the media, it might be the fault of the government
24:45
but it's more likely just human nature. We see what's right in front of us
24:49
We don't see what's thousands and thousands of miles away. So what's the worst thing that's happened so far
24:57
I don't actually know anything. Yeah, and there's the problem, you see. There's the problem
25:01
Yeah, exactly. But the problem is, of course, that these things will be happening
25:05
and they just have an atritious effect where, you know, it's gradual increases on, you know, attacks
25:13
and people have to put more effort into ensuring that their systems are protected
25:19
You're not going to get a budget increase out of me with this kind of rhetoric, Dave. And that's the problem
25:25
I mean, you can look at simple systems like the systems that are used to pump water around the country, right
25:31
But if it happened, if we went for a week without water and everybody knew it was the Russians
25:37
then perhaps the case for more spending would be a lot easier to make
25:41
But as you've kind of unintentionally demonstrated, it's not easy to make now
25:45
Have there not been attacks on the NHS? Maybe they don't tell us the stuff that they need to tell us
25:50
because they're worried about frightening us too much. But if we did know what had already happened
25:54
in the context of Russian interference... I mean, you know, Boris Johnson's decision
25:58
not to properly investigate Russian interference in the Brexit referendum is probably one big bloody milestone
26:03
on the path to this mess. But, of course, you're not allowed to say that
26:08
85% of the UK media, because he's still canonised. So what is it that best..
26:14
Who can do the best job of frightening us into a position where we'd all go
26:21
What would you say to Keir Starmer, let alone my other listeners, to make them go, yeah, we need to spend more money on this
26:27
and I don't care where it comes from? Because that's, to me, the political point here
26:31
We need to spend more money on this and I don't care where it comes from. seems to me to be where John Healy is, Al Carnes is, and Ben Wallace was
26:40
We need to spend more money on this, and I don't care where it comes from, it's so important that we have to do it
26:45
To which the public and the Prime Minister respond by going, no, don't be dafted. No, we don't
26:53
And that is why it is so stupid to have this conversation in a partisan fashion
26:58
We need to spend more money on this, and it doesn't matter where it comes from. Say all of the people close to the issue in defence
27:06
but nowhere else in government. Not in health, not in the Treasury, not in Downing Street
27:10
So how do we know they're right? How do we know they're right, even? 10.33 is the time. Dominic Ellis has your headlines
27:17
James O'Brien on LBC. It is 10.36, and the two questions that I don't know
27:24
we're going to be able to answer properly today is what would it take to persuade the British public
27:28
and indeed the British Prime Minister that we need to spend a lot more money on defence
27:33
wherever the hell it comes from, which is what every minister who ends up in the Ministry of Defence
27:37
ends up believing. And question number two, what would we actually spend that money on
27:42
Dave's in pool. Dave, what would you like to say? Good morning, James. Right, I've been a civil servant for 32 years in the Ministry of Defence
27:49
I retired two years ago, and I've now returned because I can see the growing threat to the UK
27:55
by other people, let's say. I've got to be careful with my words
28:01
Do you? Why? Well, I'm a civil servant. Oh, right. Have you signed the Secrets Act
28:06
Yeah, exactly. Okay, carry on. Well, is that part of the problem? Sorry to interrupt you before you've even started talking
28:11
No. But is there stuff Keir Starmer could tell us that would spook us more, but he can't tell us
28:17
I couldn't tell you, James. I'll be totally honest with you. That's about my pay grade
28:22
Okay, it's an interesting question, though. Yeah, very, very. But I have seen the fall of the wall
28:28
I've seen the resurgence of Russia, you know, the aggression like Putin going into Ukraine Iran
28:36
I've worked through several wars you know, and I just think the world is a bloody dangerous place
28:42
you know and I don't think we realise the general public and the Prime Minister
28:49
yeah, well he should listen to what he's been told by his defence minister
28:53
and especially Al Carnes who is an amazing guy You like him, he seems..
28:58
I quite like him as well. I like Balkan's brilliant, I think. He's an amazing guy
29:02
Bit of a dark horse for any coming leadership battle, which may again..
29:06
No, I'm not even joking. To talk about political calculus, it may have slightly influenced his decision to resign yesterday
29:11
We may never know, but what do we do? I mean, how do you do it
29:15
How do you put it into words? How do you persuade me, never mind Keir Starmer
29:20
that I should be saying, I'm really sorry, that money over there is really necessary
29:24
but we're taking it away and we're giving it to defence? Look at Ukraine
29:29
I am, mate. I'm not being facetious. I am looking at Ukraine
29:33
I can't see it being replicated in Worcestershire any time soon. No, and one thing you did say about if Guernsey gets invaded, right? Yes
29:41
Well, I'm a Guernsey historian of the occupation. Flippin' hell. Yeah. I've done podcasts and all sorts, right
29:48
Yeah. So when you said that, I thought, hold on, James, a minute, you're touching my nerve here because they were invaded
29:55
No, I know that. That's why I chose it. Five years, yeah. Five years under occupation. And Jersey
30:00
Yes, I know. And that's why I chose it. If Guernsey was invaded, nobody would sit here saying
30:04
oh, I don't know what we're supposed to be worried about. Would they? But at the moment, most people are sitting here saying
30:11
I don't know what we're supposed to be worried about. And you can say Ukraine, Dave
30:15
You can say the Middle East. You can say 30% increase in Russian activity in the north
30:19
You can say 15 billion pound cost of cyber attacks. And no one listening to this program, unless I haven't spoken to them yet
30:27
and if that's you that I'm talking about, 03456060973 is the number
30:32
Nobody's feeling it. I don't know what to say, James. I am, for once, lost for words
30:40
But I feel, I feel, as a civil servant in the MOD
30:44
I feel... It's obvious to you. We should be worried. About what
30:50
And you can't just say Ukraine. About what specifically? Tell Doris in Ongar what might happen tomorrow
30:57
That's like the man on the Clapham omnibus. It's a figure of speech that I use to describe, you know
31:02
every man or every woman. Tell Doris in Ongar what she should be scared
31:05
I don't know. It's just this feeling I have. Well, this is the problem, isn't it
31:09
Everybody who's convinced that we've got a massive flipping problem on the horizon can't tell us what it is
31:14
Yeah, well, sorry, mate. Are you going back to work at the Ministry of Defence now
31:20
I'm just about to go back to work. Well, have a great day. There it is
31:25
There it is. is everyone there called Dave? James, absolute pleasure to talk to you
31:29
Dave, you're a star, and good luck with the work that you do, and thank you for being such a good sport
31:33
but also for highlighting precisely the problem that we have. So if you do this in a partisan way
31:38
it's nice and easy, lazy, lazy, trebles all round, let's all go home
31:42
Keir Starmer's awful, Rachel Reeves has bullied him, John Healy has resigned, he's right, they're wrong
31:48
yadda, yadda, yadda, don't mention the last 14 years of Tory rule, just use it as a stick with which to beat Keir Starmer
31:53
That's fine. Lazy, pointless, unpatriotic, unhelpful, but, you know, gets you through your shift
31:59
If you want to do it from the point of view of the national interest, then you talk about the national conversation and the national concern
32:06
So, Novichok, for me, I can muster it up. I mean, I understand the threat that Russia poses
32:13
I was very early at that table, thanks to my friend Sir Bill Browder, and the education he has given me, which has come truer and truer and truer with every passing year
32:23
No matter that the politician in this country currently leading in the polls
32:27
has been a Kremlin apologist for his entire life. One of his protégés currently languishing in jail for taking bribes from a Kremlin stooge
32:34
I understand all of those threats and dangers. Of course I do
32:38
And the hideous, hideous Lord Hawhorish calls for the West to stop poking the Russian bear
32:46
could have been written straight from the Kremlin. But I can't make the leap from that
32:51
or even, you know, the attacks on the ship house in Shrewsbury
32:55
and the murder of Dawn Sturgis by Putin's goons on British soil
33:01
But that was an attempt to kill Russian dissidents who'd fled the country
33:05
It doesn't make me fear for my own safety or my family's safety. What would
33:11
That's the missing piece of the jigsaw. And I don't think Alcanz or John Healy have got it either, to be fair to them
33:17
I think these are principled resignations. But they can't tell you, they can't articulate it either
33:24
Al Carnes can say, as he did to Nick Ferrari this morning, the government has not done a very good job of making the threat clear
33:31
but he didn't make the threat clear. Make it clear, Al. Dave can't do it
33:38
Can Neil in Rushcliffe, Neil, what would you like to say? Oh, hi, James. Hello, Neil
33:42
I think one of the issues that's maybe worth reflecting is the point that you've made about
33:47
why is it that people, intelligent people, some of the higher level policies
33:51
to go in the MOD, if you like, turn native, to use your expression
33:55
I think it's a good expression, though, right? I mean, it works. Yes. Well, one of the reasons, I suspect
33:59
is that when they get in the MOD, for all its failures, it's going to have a pretty sophisticated approach to risk management
34:05
So, in other words, the detail of what the risk... what precautions
34:09
if you like, and controls we've got in place and what the gap is between that and what we need
34:14
And I think that if they were to... Salisbury, not Shrewsbury. Just let me correct Salisbury, not Shrewsbury
34:19
my bad. I've got a mental block on Salisbury and Shrewsbury, so forgive me
34:23
Carry on, Neil. Sorry for interrupting. If they were to maybe share some of that information
34:27
more widely, it would not so much, I don't think from the point of view
34:31
of people, I think people would have become scared when they become better educated
34:35
and have better insights into what the issues actually are. So, for instance
34:40
one of the big things that's been talked about over the last five years is the whole issue..
34:45
Oh, mate, I'm going to try and get your phone line. I'm losing one word
34:49
in five, and it's okay if that word is and, but it's not great if that word
34:53
is, I don't know, apocalypse. So we're going to try and get
34:57
back to you. Dom's on the wheel. Dom, what would you like to say? Morning, James
35:01
Hope you're well. I am. I am worried. I'm worried because I can read
35:05
and write. I've got nothing to do with the military, but I'm a taxpayer that keeps a breath of the news
35:09
or tries to. We've had RAF planes being buzzed in international airspace
35:15
repeatedly and dangerously. laser beams shone a plane from ships. When did that happen
35:22
When did that happen, and how do we know it was malign foreign state activity
35:27
Two weeks ago. Was it? Yeah, two weeks ago, in interstate airspace
35:32
I think it was near the Black Sea, two Russian jets buzzed within a... No, I knew that
35:36
I knew that. I was asking about the laser beams. It's not a gotcha. I just, I missed it
35:40
Last year, an RAF Collins aircraft had a laser shot at it from a Russian, what do you call them
35:49
ghost tankers, not ghost tankers. Okay, no, just a Russian vessel, that will do. And I can't double-check in real time, so I'll take your word for it
35:56
But that, how do we know that's not just, I mean, like a miscreant, as it were, as opposed to a national policy
36:05
It's part of a pattern. We've got Russian submarines being monitored, surveying our undersea cables
36:11
Yeah. We've got constant cyber attacks. We've got bot farms, which I think
36:16
nobody's looking at properly, bot farms on X and other social media platforms
36:19
And they're poised to install a Kremlin apologist in Downing Street at the moment
36:23
We can say that with some confidence, but a significant portion of the country
36:27
is going to be entirely unmoved by that. We've got to start fighting bot farms
36:32
because otherwise Nigel Farage will be Prime Minister. It's not going to play very well with
36:36
people who have somehow been persuaded that they want Nigel Farage to be Prime Minister, you see
36:40
That brings back to another debate regarding social media versus publishers, which we've spoken about in the past
36:45
Yes. But I'm also scared as a taxpayer because I've got a list in front of me
36:49
a very short list, of billions and billions of pounds wasted in defence procurement
36:54
or lack thereof. Yeah, and this is Starmer's defence, which is we don't need to give you more money
36:59
because you can save some of the money that we've currently got, which, oddly, earlier today, Dom
37:03
made me think of HS2, actually. HS2? We look at the Queen Elizabeth carrier
37:08
That was 60% over, five years. that the Ajax carrier is now eight years late and it's not fit for purpose
37:15
If you're on the MOD's own website or the Public Accounts Committee, there's billions upon billions of pounds
37:22
So before we start throwing more money in let fix the leaky bucket first Which I think is Keir Starmer position Yeah well I back him 100 on that but I don know if our civil service
37:35
You leave Dave out of it. You leave Dave out. You leave my mate Dave out of this, all right
37:39
Put Dave in charge. He'll sort of... Dave's doing his best. 10.46 is the time
37:43
Oh, dear. Some breaking news for you. The British artist David Hockney
37:48
has died at the age of 88. His publicist has just revealed
37:52
incredible influence and reach for a man born in... I can't remember where he was born, somewhere in Yorkshire
38:01
But we'll reflect a little bit upon the passing of one of the most celebrated British artists of the last century, actually
38:06
David Hockney, who has died, it's just been announced, at the age of 88
38:12
It's 1047. It's 2.11 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
38:20
I say this cautiously and kindly, but two or three people who felt that they had both the knowledge and the confidence
38:28
to answer the question of why we need to spend more money on defence
38:32
discovered once in the spotlight of the show that they couldn't. Not like Brexit, they weren't idiots
38:44
and they certainly haven't been completely misled by grifters and liars and racists
38:50
but they are convinced of their position and yet they can't articulate it
38:56
And that was what I was trying to pinpoint at the top of this hour
39:00
That to me is the very distillation of defence in this country at the moment
39:04
Some people feel an urgent threat and are adamant that we need to spend a lot more money
39:09
and some people don't. John Healy is in the former category as was Ben Wallace when he was Secretary of State for Defence
39:18
Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves are currently in the second category and neither of us know who's right and who's wrong
39:26
If you were to base your opinion or your answer to that question entirely upon the colour of the scarf
39:30
that you have tied around your neck politically then your opinion is pointless and worthless
39:36
because it couldn't be true under Ben Wallace and not true under John Healy
39:40
and it couldn't be true under John Healy and not true under Ben Wallace. So this is not a partisan moment
39:46
except in the context of Keir Starmer's perilous position but in terms of the national defence of the national interest
39:54
this is not a partisan moment it's a divide in our country
39:58
between people who are adamant that we need to spend a lot more money on defence
40:02
but can't currently articulate why and people who believe that we don't need to
40:08
with Dom on the Wirral representing the third constituency which is the threat is real
40:13
the peril is urgent but before we start moving money away from other areas
40:20
where it's desperately needed we need to make sure that the money that we're spending already in the Ministry of Defence is spent much more wisely
40:26
and much more efficiently which is why I mentioned HS2 do you remember the caller telling us
40:30
they were in procurement on HS2 and they lost a shipment like a lorry load of something
40:35
just got delivered to the wrong place or never turned up so they just ordered another one
40:41
do you see what I mean? I imagine the Ministry of Defence is a bit like that
40:45
I'm simplifying hugely, but it is not going to be run like Amazon, is it
40:50
where they've now started turning off drivers' air conditioning units in the United States of America to save a few dollars for Jeff Bezos
40:56
because let's all be honest, one thing we can all agree on is that Jeff Bezos is in need of more money, just like Elon Musk is
41:04
So you see what I mean? These sclerotic public behemoths squander money on an industrial scale
41:12
And the Prime Minister, I think, is defending his current position by saying, well, we need to make sure it's a lot more efficient and we spend the money that we're already giving them a lot more wisely
41:21
And then the people in the department are saying, we need more money and we need it yesterday
41:25
And the public's left like an observer at Queen's, turning to the left and turning to the right and turning to the left and turning to tennis, Wimbledon
41:34
Not knowing. And we still don't. Matthew's in Bradmore. Are you going to change it, Matthew? What would you like to say
41:40
Okay, I'm going to try and... Right, go easy with me. Of course I will
41:45
This is going to be difficult. You're a Wolverhampton lad. We're practically neighbours. Carry on
41:49
I even said to your person beforehand, I bet he knows where Bradmore is
41:53
because he's from Kiddie. I know Kiddie well. Yeah, okay. So, all right, let's try history, okay
42:00
1930s, Hitler invaged Czechoslovakia. He's given a bit of it to appeasement
42:06
He takes the rest of it. And at that time, everyone probably thought, yeah, well, it's still, it's Eastern Europe
42:13
it's, it was miles away or something else like that. Yes. Right. A few years later, bombs were dropping on London
42:19
Right. Now, if we, if we had intervened in Czechoslovakia at that point
42:24
and not just us, but say France, which was a superpower at the time, and other countries, if we, we could have stopped the second world war
42:31
at Czechoslovakia, if we'd have got involved then. Now, Putin invades Ukraine
42:37
and this is our chance to stop a bigger war from spreading across the rest of Europe, right
42:43
Because as long as he's bogged down in Ukraine, he can't spread anywhere else. So that's going to mean that we're going to have to help Ukraine
42:50
because if he takes Ukraine, he will get Ukraine's resources, Ukraine's men, Ukraine's equipment, Ukraine's everything
42:55
and then he'll just move on to another. It's how empires build. So this is why we need to spend more money to give to Ukraine
43:03
because it will stop the war there. But it's not just that
43:07
We've also got Middle East. We've also got China and Taiwan. And we can't rely on America either
43:13
All the sort of stuff that we partner with America. Yet a few months ago
43:18
America was even looking at whether they could take Greenland. We've still got a lot of defence contracts with America
43:25
and we can't trust them. America, if Putin moved into Latvia tomorrow
43:30
America might just go like, not my problem, you're a problem. We can't rely on them
43:35
Yeah, and that's what America First was in the 1930s and it's what America First would be in the 2020s
43:41
And J.D. Vance, more than Donald Trump, would be the face of that betrayal
43:46
Yeah, and I think this, and at least well done to the defence minister walking out
43:52
In fact, I was even trying to get on your show and that's what stopped it. So the question or answer, I was going to be on that
43:56
and instead I've... You rung in on this instead. So the Ukraine thing is contingent upon believing
44:05
that if Putin had prevailed there, and let's not forget he thought he'd have it nailed in a weekend
44:09
if Putin had prevailed there, he would have moved on. He wouldn't have stopped and been satisfied
44:15
Oh, yeah, you've got Moldova in the area, and you've got other places that he could have then moved
44:19
And that's the absolute crux of it, because either you get that or you don't
44:24
Yeah. Are you ex-military? Are you ex-military? Are you military yourself? I served 37 years
44:29
That'll do. I did two years in the RAF cadets alright, so we're practically comrades I
44:36
either you get it or you don't you either look at Putin and think he is like Hitler
44:41
or you look at people who look at Putin and think he is like Hitler and think they're mad
44:47
and that's the problem the politicians have got and Putin doesn't care, he's already lost about a million people
44:53
and he's still fighting he does not care about his people he still thinks that he can get his glory that he can expand his empire and everything So why are we failing on that I mean but again it like I sorry to bring Guernsey back into it
45:05
We only realized Hitler's intent when he invaded Poland. We didn't realize it when he invaded an annexed Sudetenland
45:12
as you've pointed out. So it would involve Putin. Next over from Ukraine is Poland, again, oddly
45:19
So that would be the point at which everybody in the UK said, whoa, give all the money to defense
45:24
And by then, of course, it might be too late. Do you think that's what's going on in the minds of people like John Healy
45:29
Latvia is more likely, to be honest. Latvia, OK, but you take my point
45:33
They're smaller countries that they haven't got a big defence budget. Poland, at least, has spent masses on its armed forces
45:41
But how do you do it? How does the media do what it needs to do for the British public
45:45
if your ysis is correct, while they are absolutely allergic to any investigation
45:50
of Russian interference in our democracy because they liked the results that the Russians helped to deliver
45:55
And their darling, they're all queuing up to tickle his tummy at the moment
45:59
is a massive, lifelong Kremlin apologist who's made no secret of the fact that the politician he admires most in the world is
46:05
spoiler alert, Vladimir bloody Putin. Yeah, well, to be fair to him, and I really hate what I'm going to say next
46:12
but he has actually said that more money should be spent on defence. Doesn't matter. Not because Putin is a threat. Putin is his hero
46:18
It's easy to say more money should be spent on defence when you're in opposition. making the case to the public as to why
46:24
is the thing that nobody is currently managing to do. And he's certainly not going to be doing it
46:29
by explaining that Vladimir Putin, who is his hero, is actually a major threat to the UK
46:37
Yeah. I mean, one good thing that has happened from the Defence Minister resigning is on the front page of every newspaper today
46:42
So was Ben Wallace when he resigned. Yeah. And also, I think a few people woke up
46:48
when we could only send one ship to the Mediterranean. I think people started to realise that our Navy wasn't..
46:56
Do you think they did, or do you think they just saw it as an opportunity to attack Labour
47:00
without reflecting upon the 14-year-old reasons why our defences were in such a parlous state
47:06
I mean, it is Osborne's razor again, isn't it? All roads lead to George Osborne and his filleting of all public spending
47:12
I don't know. I mean, thank God we didn't join Donald Trump's ludicrous mission in Iran
47:18
but there were plenty of people in our chattering classes who wanted to
47:22
Dick Littlejohn at the Daily Mail has never been more ashamed in his life to be British than when we didn't join a campaign that has just seen Donald Trump
47:29
step back from invading Iran for the 39th time. People don't feel it, Matthew
47:34
They don't feel... Sorry, I'm going off on one. They don't feel what you feel. I thought Starmer was getting it because he kept going on about coalition of the willing
47:43
Three and a half percent. Yeah, yeah. And he actually looked like, you know, he kept telling the rest of Europe
47:50
we need to spend more money, we need to do this, we need to do that. And then I kept thinking, yeah, but it's got to start with you
47:55
because there's a G7 conference coming up, there's a NATO conference coming up
47:59
and then everyone is going to look at him and then think, I couldn't even believe how much the money was
48:03
When I heard it last night, it said 0.08%. I thought, oh, that must be wrong, it must be 0.8%
48:11
It wasn't until I had another look this morning. I thought, oh no, that's nothing. That is really nothing
48:15
It's not nothing, it's huge, but it's nothing in percentage terms. It's still a huge summing
48:20
It's not going to fix the military at the moment, right? And it will just get a couple of big exercises
48:28
and a few other things. Here's a question, then. What would we spend the money on
48:32
At the moment, if you're going to build ships, tanks, and things like that, planes
48:36
it's going to take years before you'll see the benefits. If you start building things like
48:42
we need an air defence system. We've got nothing against drones. We've got nothing against ballistic missiles
48:47
We've got no proper air defence system for the UK. But all of this is..
48:51
We can buy something off the shelf now. We can buy anti-tank weapons. They're pretty much off the shelf
48:55
We can start doing that. But you have to feel threatened to do that. To make the political case to do that
49:01
you have to have people in Bradmore and Kidderminster who think that there are Russians on the horizon
49:08
I mean, at the end of the day... You just do. You just do. Politically, you just do. Okay, okay
49:12
at the end of the day, is there a threat? If Starmer is honestly saying
49:16
yes, there is a threat, it doesn't really matter what the people think. I'm sorry to say this
49:21
but you're the person who's responsible if people are going to say, yeah, but Mrs. So-and-so
49:26
she's going to not get her benefits or whatever, then you're the person
49:30
who's in charge. The book stops with you. You're the one who's going to make that decision
49:35
and say, look, I'm sorry, this is going to upset a few people
49:38
That's not how it works, because they're saying you've got the health secretary, you've got the Work and Pension Secretary, you've got the Trade Secretary
49:45
they're all saying, we need money, we need money, we need money. And he's like Daddy, saying
49:49
we can't actually afford to spend more money on defence children. I'm sure this happened in the 1930s
49:55
when people were saying, like, do we really need all these spitfires? And then the answer is yes
50:01
You're brilliant. I mean, and that's it? No, you just are, because if you're right, we're doomed
50:07
Yeah, I mean, I kind of... military is like, it's lacking so many
50:14
The Red Arrows are now down to seven aircraft. Well, that doesn't matter so much. That's just for air shows
50:18
They're not going to protect us from Russians. No, but it's a recruitment thing
50:22
Don't attack me. God, I've just upset the Red Arrows lot. No, I love the Red Arrows. The Red Arrows are amazing
50:27
Zhoo-fwee! Bang! They're incredible. I saw them, I think, where would I have seen them, Matthew
50:32
Name a famous air show. There's one up the road on the M54 sometimes
50:38
I went there once. it was amazing. Shobden's near you, isn't it? I once went up on an aircraft at Shobden
50:43
Airfield. That's just around the corner from you, isn't it? Yeah. I'm Marmy
50:47
not RAF, but yeah, I am aware of a few places. Because if I used to be... The Red Arrows have never, as far as I'm aware, never flown out of Shobden
50:53
It's the Trooping the Colour tomorrow. I love all that business, but I don't think it's going to protect us from
50:57
Vladimir Putin. There it is. Look, either you think Putin is a modern-day Hitler, in which
51:01
case you spend every penny you've got on defence, or you don't, in which case you don't
51:05
John Healy needs to tell us, doesn't he really al khan's it's all very well saying the government haven't made you are the
51:10
bloody government i've got to stop using that word my apologies especially if you've got children in the car you are the flipping government you are the flipping government al khan's how can you say
51:18
we haven't done the government hasn't done a very good job of it you're a minister of defense
51:22
oh man i can't want to stay with this i think it's really important and really interesting i've got
51:28
there's room on the switchboard we're by no means full up it's up to you really whether you've got
51:32
anything to add to the conversation how i mean should we be so all of the people that know what
51:36
they're talking about are adamant that we should be on high alert not all of them have done a very
51:42
good job of explaining why matthew probably the best exception on that and and what should we
51:47
spend the money on how do you persuade the british public to be more alerted to be more alarmed to be
51:52
more quote scared end quotes it's 1103 james o'brien on lbc um i have a confession to make i missed the
52:01
appointment of the new secretary of state for defense because i was playing 007 first light
52:06
for hours last night, both before and after the football, which will give you an indication of just how many shifts I put in
52:14
on what is an absolutely brilliant game if you care about such things
52:18
But do you know what Dan Jarvis' nickname was when he was in the parachute regiment
52:23
And you got to remember that if you in the parachute regiment you already nails right You as hard as nails already if you in the parachute regiment Dan Jarvis nickname when he was in the parachute regiment was CMOD
52:38
Does anyone want to have a go at guessing what CMOD stands for? Do you know what CMOD stands for
52:43
This is your new Secretary of State for Defence, ladies and gentlemen. Steely-eyed messenger of death
52:52
Whew. and of course that is a reflection on his ability to stay calm when or to keep your head when all
53:02
around were losing theirs so a couple of other little anecdotes that the former deputy labor
53:07
leader tom watson has shared um he's known dan jarvis for 15 years he he he would say while
53:14
making conversation about hobbies he would say i like the odd run and it would later emerge that
53:20
he was in the habit of running seven marathons in seven days in a desert. I think none of this
53:25
particularly equips you to be a politician necessarily, but I don't know, it sort of fills
53:31
you with a vague sense of comfort, doesn't it? And confidence that the Secretary of State for
53:35
Defence is obviously made of much, much tougher stuff than the rest of us. He was my tip for
53:42
Labour leader a few years ago, but he had personal tragedy to deal with and committed himself to
53:47
doing the job as an MP while raising young children. But he's a profoundly and permanently impressive man
53:55
Sandhurst at 23, comprehensive school education in Nottingham, 15 years in the parachute regiment, tours in Northern Ireland
54:02
Kosovo, Sierra Leone, Iraq, Afghanistan, picked up an MBE along the way
54:09
He was at Pristina Airport when General Sir Mike Jackson told Wesley Clark
54:13
that he was not going to start World War III for you, a moment of epic courage that should really stir even the least patriotic heart
54:21
Jarvis later calling it a very surreal moment in my life, but he impressed Mike Jackson in that moment
54:28
and was made his personal staff officer. By the time they got to Helmand, he was commanding a company against the Taliban
54:33
in night fighting of the kind that most of his paramilitary colleagues
54:37
have only read about. That's your new Secretary of State for Defence
54:43
And because it's very thin on the ground at the moment and in extremely short supply, I'm taking that as good news
54:49
His job now, presumably, is to persuade Keir Starmer to go back to the drawing board and have another think about the money
54:55
that is or is not available for the defence budget. And the problem is, as my callers have managed to articulate
55:02
rather well so far this morning, you can feel the threat. So listen to what Tom Tuggenhat just said
55:08
Did you hear that in the bulletin? So Tom Tuggenhat saying, it's obvious, the enemy is at the gate
55:13
and then he talked about Iran, Latvia and Estonia. That's not the gate, Tom
55:19
That's the problem. You, as someone who has spent time in the Ministry of Defence
55:24
like John Healy, like Al Karnes, like Ben Wallace, you might think it's obvious because you..
55:29
I don't know, have you seen stuff that we haven't seen? But Latvia, Estonia, Ukraine, Iran, they're not the gate
55:36
You're trying to persuade someone in Kidderminster that we should cut their pension and spend it on defence
55:41
axe the triple lock or take away from their grandchildren's school and spend it on defense
55:47
then they need to be at the gate we're getting there aren't we we're getting there right together
55:52
we're getting there we're getting closer to it you see what happens when you don't make it a
55:55
really lazy partisan point scoring exercise clarity understanding comprehension they're not at the
56:01
gate tom tugan thinks they're at the gate he's ex-military he's ex-ministry of defense he thinks
56:07
they're at the gate because their brains work differently from ours and their information is better. We don't think they're at the gate
56:12
The only thing that's at the gate is the cyber threat, and we don't really feel that. Which one
56:16
would you pick? Marks and Spencers? That was supposed to be kids trying to get a ransom
56:20
out of them. Cambridge Research Systems? Probably underreported in the great scheme of things. The British Library, do we know who that
56:26
was? They can bring massive institutions to their knees in moments. And our side do it too, or at least our allies
56:34
do it too. The United States, the CIA, and Israel were supposed to have rendered
56:40
Iran's nuclear capability is obsolete using a virus back in 2010. Has any nuclear capability ever been obliterated
56:49
and rendered obsolete more often than Iran's? Extraordinary. But it's not at the gate, is it
56:55
Is the gate the problem? Is that the crux of this entire issue? Is that we don't know where the gate is
57:01
The gate in the 1930s when Hitler was roundly, sorry, when Churchill was roundly derided for describing Hitler as a warmonger
57:09
for accurately predicting exactly what Hitler was going to do. Winston Churchill was a laughingstock in London
57:17
He was considered to be crackers. And he was right. Because we know what the gate looked like
57:25
Sudetenland wasn't the gate. Poland was the gate. If you can go into Poland, you can go into Finland
57:31
you can go into Lithuania, you can go into Estonia. So here's the thing
57:36
A gate is a mental concept, not a physical one, not a national one
57:39
So, on the one hand, right, we've got Tom Tuganhat saying, it's obvious that we need to spend more money on defence
57:47
The enemy is at the gate. And you've got me saying, that's not the gate
57:51
You've got Mario texting me in the same moment, who was born and educated in Poland
57:56
saying, whenever you mention war, James, I start listening a bit more closely. The UK doesn't need to do anything involving Europe
58:02
especially now, after Brexit. But again, I'm Polish, so I'm going to say
58:06
I'm going to tell you what it's like to be in a country, or from a country that has land borders with Russia
58:11
And then ask your politicians if they want to support Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Finland and Sweden
58:17
or do they want to sit back again and watch Central Europe burn
58:22
Right, that's the gate. It's Mario's gate. It's not your gate. How do you make the British people feel the urgency and necessity
58:31
that Labour and Conservative politicians who've spent time in both the military and the Ministry of Defence
58:37
feel so keenly that they think it's self-evident? I don't know the answer to that
58:43
but I think they're all failing. They're all failing, and they're possibly even flailing
58:52
Al Karnes did it this morning when he said the government is not articulating
58:56
the urgency of the situation. Tom Tugendham did it in that news bulletin there
59:01
when he said the enemy are at the gate. It's obvious because they're not even persuading
59:05
their own colleagues in cabinets, Conservative and Labour cabinets. We need to spend more money on Defence, Prime Minister
59:12
Ah, do we? Well, we can't afford it. Where am I going to get the money from
59:19
Where am I going to get the money from? If they were at the gate, it wouldn't matter
59:23
We'd be melting down church bells and taking fence railings off houses
59:29
If the enemy was at the gate, it wouldn't matter, would it
59:33
where the money was coming from. We get it from anywhere. So, let's work on the proviso that they are at the gate
59:41
that Putin does have ambitions. And remember, Putin thought he would take Ukraine in a weekend
59:48
Barack Obama had rolled over when he went into Crimea, not responded in a way that anybody genuinely concerned about
59:56
wider imperial ambitions would have responded. So a few years later, he had a pop at the entirety of Ukraine
1:00:03
You'd have to be mad, wouldn't you, to think he would have stopped there, just as you would have had to be mad to think that Hitler would have stopped in Sudetenland
1:00:10
But guess what? He didn't. And loads and loads of people at the time thought that he would
1:00:16
This is a great point an earlier caller made. Everybody thought that he would stop
1:00:21
Oh, he's happy now. That's what Chamberlain thought when he came back with his famous piece of paper
1:00:27
He'd stop there. It's only... Do you know why? Probably this is going to sound weird
1:00:32
One of the major reasons why people in the United Kingdom don't realise the threat that they face
1:00:38
is because Volodymyr Zelensky has done such an incredible job of fighting it
1:00:43
If Ukraine had fallen and Putin had set his sights on whatever would be next
1:00:48
Mario suggests Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Finland, Sweden, Poland, you can pick a favourite
1:00:55
Probably Estonia and Latvia, both geographically and militarily. if Putin had taken Ukraine and moved on to the next one
1:01:02
probably it would be a lot... Oh, wow. Oh, and tell me I'm wrong
1:01:10
If Ukraine had fallen in a weekend and Putin had set his sights on the next target
1:01:16
then it would be a lot easier to persuade the British public that we need to spend a lot more money on..
1:01:21
In fact, there would be votes in it. Because Starmer would be doing it now if he thought it was a vote winner
1:01:27
You'd find the money. if the public feel the threat. You feel the heat of the threat on your neck, on your back
1:01:34
You find the money and you spend the money. You don't really have conversations
1:01:38
about whether it's being spent wisely or efficiently or effectively. You find the money and you spend the money
1:01:46
But Zelensky and Ukraine have resisted so successfully and so incredibly. There's another statistic from Karnes this morning
1:01:53
that made me lose my Alpin, was that there's already been more deaths for Russia
1:02:01
than the United States suffered in the entire Second World War. I think I heard that correctly
1:02:07
So if Zelensky and Ukraine hadn't done such an incredible job of resisting Vladimir Putin
1:02:13
he'd have moved on to somewhere else and we probably would have thought that he was near the gate or at the gate
1:02:18
and therefore the necessity of spending more money on defence would be absolutely irresistible
1:02:27
So is that it? Is that the answer? You just wait for things to get worse, and then everyone will finally
1:02:33
agree that we should be spending the money. You could say better late than never
1:02:39
or it might be too late to make a difference. We'll never know, and hopefully we'll never find out
1:02:42
But that seems to me to be where we are now. So how do you do it in the absence of
1:02:46
enemies at the gate? or in the presence of enemies at the cyber gate
1:02:54
the invisible gate, how do you persuade prime ministers, pundits and public
1:03:01
that we need to spend this money on defence? How do you do it
1:03:05
How do you persuade them of the threat? It's 11.18. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:03:11
and it's your turn to contribute next by dialing 0345 6060 973
1:03:17
And what would we spend the money on? I've got some answers to that question
1:03:21
A shed load, I nearly swore then, a shed load of drones
1:03:27
anti-drone weaponry, all sorts of things. But you need to really feel that you're under physical
1:03:34
imminent physical threat for that. Hit the numbers now, you will get through
1:03:39
It's 11.19. James O'Brien on LBC. It's 20 minutes after 11. It's a question of where the gate is, how big the threat is
1:03:49
and crucially, how you persuade not just the British public, but also successive British Prime Ministers
1:03:54
that the situation is urgent enough to demand that money be found from other places
1:03:58
to spend on defence. And that leads us into the second question
1:04:02
What exactly would we spend it on? Paul's in witness. Paul, what would you like to say
1:04:07
Yeah, hi, James. The point I wanted to make was, my job prior to me retiring was working for the ministry of defense and my job was to go to various
1:04:20
bases around the world and actually check that the equipment that we're supposed to have we do
1:04:24
actually have right and the point i wanted to make which i was explaining to your colleague
1:04:29
is that the british public have no need to fear we have a lot more equipment than what the general
1:04:36
public are led to believe. The only people who doubt what we've got
1:04:40
are the likes of Fleet Street newspapers. When I go along to these
1:04:45
bases, or rather when I used to go along to these bases, we used to
1:04:50
have listening stations in countries that you've never heard of. When Iran were blowing
1:04:56
up, throwing missiles at various countries due to the week, the majority of those countries have been in
1:05:02
and my friends and family who know where I used to work, used to say to me
1:05:07
you've been there, haven't you? And I used to say, yeah, and he used to say, well, why are they throwing a missile
1:05:11
at that particular country? And I said, I just said, well, you don't know. I'm not allowed to
1:05:17
tell you, I'm not allowed to say what's there, but I can tell you that
1:05:22
the reason they're throwing missiles there is because they know what we know
1:05:29
Well, this is good and bad, isn't it? Because this is going to be information
1:05:33
to which Secretaries of State to defence are even more party than you were
1:05:38
So when they say... Exactly. But when they say we're under serious threat
1:05:42
they're drawing on things that they can't tell us. Well, I would disagree
1:05:46
Go on. The thing I think is that while they're playing political games
1:05:50
because at the end of the day, I mean, as much as I like Tom Tuganhurst or whatever his name is
1:05:54
and as much as I love Keir and Andy Burnham, etc., the point of making is that we are..
1:06:03
The British public are about 100th down the list of people who actually know what's going on
1:06:09
The real people who know what's going on, they live in offices in London
1:06:16
which nobody even knows which offices they exist in. And the point I'm trying to make is that
1:06:22
the British institution is sound as a pound in regards to the amount of military that we've got
1:06:30
I've seen military... I understand what you're saying, but all of the military leaders
1:06:36
and anyone who's ever been close to the office of secretaries... Yeah, but they're not allowed to say... Stop interrupting me when I'm interrupting you
1:06:45
Successive secretaries of state for defence and every military leader ever are adamant
1:06:49
that the threat is much, much bigger than we realise and they need a lot more money to counter it
1:06:54
Yeah, I don't disagree if that's what they're going to say, but to play in politics, at the end of the day..
1:07:00
They're not playing politics. I don't... I mean, respectfully, it doesn't really matter what you've seen
1:07:05
and how much odds it might be with what the public perception is
1:07:09
Why would these men and women misrepresent the facts? Why would John Healy resign over something that's not true
1:07:17
Well, you know... I'm going to hit you with that question. It's a good one
1:07:21
I'm going to hit you with it again, so don't try and dodge it. No no I going to say I read a couple of your books and the reason is that when people have got budgets as if you remember in Yes Prime Minister and Yes Minister all those years ago everybody defends their own budgets
1:07:36
And if you start to turn around and say, oh, we've got plenty of armaments, we don't need any money
1:07:41
you've just got your budget next day. Yeah, but that doesn't explain why he resigned. No, it doesn't
1:07:48
Why would he resign over something that's not true? well people who sign
1:07:53
over lots and lots of things one would be unfortunate there's been two in 24 hours
1:07:59
why would they both resign over something that's not true there's been six in the last month
1:08:05
they're after KF to be honest with you I did talk about that at 10 o'clock
1:08:09
the political calculus of it and listen you've got the experience and I haven't
1:08:13
so it's a little bit rich for me to tell you but then everybody else that's rung in today
1:08:17
who comes at it from a different angle from you has also been of the view that the situation is almost certainly a lot more serious than the British public allows
1:08:26
I'll take some reassurance from what you've told us, though, Paul. Obviously, I don't know, when you first came on, I thought you were going to tell us about Milo Minderbinder
1:08:34
the character in Catch-22 who's flogging off all the military equipment to the highest bidder
1:08:40
while serving in the Second World War, in Joseph Heller's Catch-22. Roger's in Cambridge. Roger, what would you like to say
1:08:47
Well, I'd like to say that we talk about Estonia and Latvia
1:08:51
as though they're not at the gate, but NATO is the gate. Yes
1:08:56
And they've been in NATO since 2007 or so. And I... Now, talking to the lady who, for your research
1:09:06
or I'm not sure, producer, something like that. Guru, Guru. Guru, yeah
1:09:11
Yes, carry on. The lady who runs the show for you. That's the one, boss, yes
1:09:15
The Kenny Badenock of the James O'Brien show. The person who's really in charge
1:09:19
The real winner. I mean, one thing I... If you walk down the street and ask 100 people
1:09:24
which Baltic states are in NATO, I think, even if you gave them multiple choice
1:09:34
the answer that you got would be more or less random. People might remember the recent arrival
1:09:40
You know, Sweden is probably the newest. They might remember that because it was only a couple of years ago
1:09:44
but not necessarily. It's not Baltic. Troops have been stationed in, you know
1:09:51
have visited Latvia and Estonia, and which aircraft squadrons and things, even though it's been publicly
1:09:57
available information, almost nobody would know. And, you know, NATO is a cohesive whole
1:10:07
If it isn't a cohesive whole, then it doesn't work and we're all in trouble
1:10:12
And much of their issues with Mr. Trump about that. Yeah. To say, oh, Latvia and Estonia
1:10:21
that's not the gate. It doesn't matter. Well, if it's a neutral defence pact..
1:10:25
Of course it's the gate. That's brilliantly explained, and actually you've done a better job of explaining that
1:10:30
than Tom Tuganhat did. So, I mean, my bad on that. But it doesn't feel like the gate
1:10:35
I mean, you've made both points brilliantly, Roger. It doesn't feel like the gate, because as you said
1:10:39
you'd ask 100 people on the streets of this country which Baltic states are in NATO
1:10:43
and they probably wouldn't have a clue or they'd be part right, part wrong
1:10:48
or it'd be a lucky guess. Is NATO our gate? Again, most people might not feel that it is
1:10:54
Again, the man leading the opinion polls in this country is a sworn critic of NATO
1:10:59
and a sworn crony of the Kremlin. So you can understand why the British public
1:11:04
don't feel it as keenly as they should but that is the problem in a nutshell, isn't it
1:11:08
That they are at our gate if our gate is defined by NATO membership. and it must be, it should be yes
1:11:16
no? you sound hesitant it must be but I think we used to have a keener idea
1:11:22
of what was going on when there were you know, the British Army of the Rhine
1:11:27
was big and we had you know your perspective is not entirely civilian
1:11:32
I don't think, is it? I've been a civilian civil servant in
1:11:38
the Ministry of Defence and the Cabinet Office and UKSV. Right, so you
1:11:43
speak then from the same perspective that people like Tuganhat and Healy and Karns and Wallace speak
1:11:49
in that you know stuff or not even know because the information
1:11:53
is freely available. You put two and two together. Well, people in those positions are required
1:11:58
to have a to have certain levels of clearance. Well, they're required to have certain levels of clearance
1:12:06
but they're also required to to have certain amounts of briefing. Yes
1:12:13
And in the same way that people who work in an office block
1:12:18
have to do a fire alarm once a year or something. Yes
1:12:23
They have to do something to make sure that they are up to date
1:12:30
on things like threats. I can tell you're choosing your words very carefully
1:12:35
probably because of what you used to do for a living. So I'll ask this question then
1:12:40
We forget, don't we, that politicians and civil servants are just human beings
1:12:44
Could it be that if I'm Secretary of State for Defence, I am made aware of things that the Prime Minister could know and should know
1:12:54
but somehow doesn't know in quite the same way that a Secretary of State for Defence knows
1:13:00
Well, there's a funnel in every government department that is sort of upside down
1:13:06
and the information flows from the bottom to the top and we hope that the best stuff goes to the top
1:13:11
But you'd think John Healy would sit in that office before resigning and say
1:13:15
look, mate, Kia, you don't understand. Bing, bang, bong, bish, bash, bosh
1:13:20
I think nine times out of ten minister resignations of this nature
1:13:27
are because the last recourse of government ministries to say, I can't be having this
1:13:33
We change it or I resign. and if somebody says, well, we're not changing it
1:13:37
then you're stuck. We're going. But he's failed to communicate the necessity for changing it
1:13:43
And I find that hard to believe if... I think there's an assumption that when we talk
1:13:50
other people know what we're talking about. I mean, not just about this, but about everything. Welcome to my world
1:13:56
You say that there are certain political viewpoints that you disagree with
1:14:01
And much as you do it every day and say, you're still, you know, somebody turned on
1:14:05
the radio, they'd have to listen for a very long time to hear all of the reasons that you
1:14:09
Yes, no, you're right, and so there's a necessity for shorthand, which is probably
1:14:13
unrealistic, and yet I still, I think out of everything that I've learnt today that's the bit I can't quite
1:14:19
connect, it's like the spark that leaps from one node to another, how can successive defence politicians
1:14:29
ministers, secretaries of state how can they all fail so signally to persuade prime ministers
1:14:35
of what they have been persuaded of? Actually, don't go yet. I'm a bit late for the news
1:14:40
Do you see what I mean? Have you got an answer to that question? Why do successive secretaries..
1:14:44
Well, a lot of them were... Of the running down of defence budgets
1:14:50
have been during the peace premium. Yeah. And they bought into the whole idea that we needed less And we need a certain amount and we do things like we had to rely on the French
1:15:07
Well, that's not that bad a thing. We work together with allies
1:15:11
The difficulty we've got is that our biggest ally is not standing up and with every breath they say
1:15:20
saying we're there for you, which has always been the case before. Quite the opposite. And that's potentially problematic because it means that we'll have to..
1:15:30
And that's something else they can't say. So John Healy couldn't put in his letter yesterday
1:15:35
And also, you know, Donald Trump's a delinquent, so we really need to do this
1:15:41
I think he would have felt that was an inappropriate thing to write
1:15:45
Yeah, so do I, even though it's true. Yeah. You're good. I really enjoyed listening to you
1:15:54
Thank you for that, Roger. Okay. Mind how you go. 11.33 is the time
1:16:00
Dominic Ellis has your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC. 11.36 is the time
1:16:06
And I suppose if you're not worried enough about our defence, then think about what would have happened
1:16:10
if we had a different Prime Minister when Donald Trump decided to dance to Benjamin Netanyahu's tune
1:16:16
and launch attacks upon Iran. Kemmy Badenoch and Nigel Farage, both adamant that we should have been in full support of them
1:16:23
but various flavours of reverse ferret subsequently. I think Badenot tried to argue that when she said we should be in full support
1:16:29
she didn't mean that we should actually do anything. We should just cheer very loudly
1:16:34
What a woman, eh? Seriously, that's just genius. When I said that we should do everything we could to support them
1:16:40
I didn't mean we should do anything. I just meant we should cheer very loudly, whatever it was that they did
1:16:45
And Nigel Farage, of course, is likely at 12 o'clock to completely contradict whatever it was that he said at 11 o'clock
1:16:51
that it's not even worth reminding ourselves of what it was that it said. But we must always bear in mind that he is a Kremlin apologist
1:16:57
and that one of his closest political allies, friends and protégés, is currently in jail serving a sentence for accepting bribes from a Kremlin stooge
1:17:06
in return for polluting public discourse in the European Parliament and beyond
1:17:11
with lines that were fed to him by a Kremlin stooge. that is Nigel Farage's close friend and former protégé Nathan Gill
1:17:21
So conversations about Russian influence on British politics that don't reach back to Brexit and the promotion in this country
1:17:30
and the dominance on some social media platforms of a politician who is supremely sympathetic to Russia
1:17:37
up to and including the claim that Ukraine should just sort of roll over
1:17:41
and give them Crimea or Ukraine should just sort of roll over
1:17:45
and surrender its own defences and that defending sovereignty in Ukraine or Baltic states
1:17:52
would somehow involve poking the Russian bear or that NATO... Where does a bloke who went to Dulwich College
1:17:58
end up thinking that NATO is a bad idea? Genuine question. And schools like Dulwich College would teach
1:18:06
both the importance of the post-war settlement NATO and its role in preventing Europe from slipping back into land warfare
1:18:17
preventing World War III how on earth would a bloke who went
1:18:21
I know he never went to university but how would a bloke who went to Dulwich College end up thinking that NATO was the enemy
1:18:27
and Putin was our friend there's a question you could ask him
1:18:31
if you were sitting down with him for a few hours after you've asked him about the Russian spies
1:18:36
that supposedly hacked his phone hashtag alert after you've asked him about
1:18:42
is it just the one billionaire that's given you 5 million quid? I was thinking about that this morning
1:18:47
Because you don't know now. Everything Nigel Farage does could be because Christopher Harbour wants him to
1:18:53
I was also thinking about the nonsense about his phone being hacked by Russian spies
1:18:57
which I'm sure anybody who's had the pleasure of sitting down with him recently would have quizzed him about mercilessly
1:19:02
Just show us the proof. Show us the proof that your phone was hacked by Russian spies
1:19:07
Mail on Sunday printed it unquestioningly, but they also printed your lies about an assassination attempt
1:19:12
that a French mechanic had told you about. Unfortunately, someone tracked down the French mechanic
1:19:18
and he called BS on the claim. But how do we know now what's going on
1:19:26
How did the news come out? What if Farage has been given loads of money by loads of billionaires
1:19:32
I'm not saying he has. I'm just asking questions. Let's say he's been given loads of money by loads of billionaires secretly
1:19:37
and we've only found out about one of them because the billionaires were trying to remind him of the deal
1:19:44
Just thinking out loud, just asking questions. But let's say 10 billionaires
1:19:49
10 people who've made a fortune out of crypto and would make more fortunes
1:19:52
out of the kind of policies that he announced shortly after accepting £5 million secretly from Christopher Harbourn
1:19:58
I forget what his Thai name is, the one he uses to do business in Thailand where he lives
1:20:03
Hashtag patriot. What if there were 10 of them that gave him £5 million
1:20:07
quid. What if he's got 50 million quid squirreled away, secretly? And they just decided to remind him what his
1:20:13
job was. You're not being, you're not doing enough stochastic terrorism, Nigel
1:20:18
So, you better make a speech that encourages people to start lobbing bricks at the political, otherwise
1:20:23
you know, we might start releasing details of the other 45 million quid
1:20:27
that you've taken from a cabal of cryptocurrency billionaire. I'm just thinking
1:20:31
out, I'm just asking questions, but what, I mean, how do we know? If you kept the first
1:20:37
£5 million secret, that's the kind of question I'd ask him. If you kept the first £5 million secret
1:20:43
how the hell do we know there's not another £10 million or £45 million
1:20:47
And that every time you do something now, it's because they're pulling the string. And the embarrassment that you feel
1:20:53
because you're still hiding from all proper inquiries and all proper interviews, still hiding from all
1:20:59
proper inquiries and all proper interviews, because you know this is big and you know this is a massive problem
1:21:05
that's the leverage they've got. Imagine if it came out tomorrow, there's another 10 million
1:21:10
or another 15 million or another 35 million. Then where would he be
1:21:14
So the phone call rings, we need you to do this now, please. Otherwise, it may mysteriously reach the Guardian newspaper
1:21:23
that the £5 million you took secretly from one cryptocurrency billionaire was actually just the tip of the iceberg
1:21:30
You're not so much the count of dodgy crypto, you're the flipping king. just thinking out loud, just asking questions
1:21:36
we all like questions, don't we? but how do you know how much money he's taken
1:21:41
secretly from cryptocurrency? that's certainly a question you'd want to ask him
1:21:44
wouldn't it? I mean, ask him what his favourite song is first, of course
1:21:48
spoiler alert, it's the chicken song from Spitting Image and then ask him
1:21:52
how do we know? so every single time Nigel Farage speaks now, you should be asking yourself
1:21:58
is this him speaking? or is this the people that secretly give him millions and millions
1:22:02
and millions of pounds? probably not somebody whose tummy you should be tickling at this point in the political cycle but
1:22:12
hey what do i know 11 42 is the time speaking of trump and the um delinquency i alluded to with
1:22:20
roger who was clearly a man who really knew what he was talking about if you're new to this program
1:22:24
we blessed with callers like that not every day not on every subject but as you would have discovered over the course of the last hour and 40 minutes we kind of get callers that you wouldn normally find on a radio phone in show here um and i don want to overyse it or try to work out why but
1:22:39
we're very very grateful and would always be so but um here's a little flavor of the man that uh
1:22:46
nigel ferridge and kemi badenot felt that we should be offering full-throated and let's not
1:22:52
pretend military support to when he decided to launch a ludicrous war against iran this is
1:22:58
at the current count cnn the american news organization reckon that he has now um announced
1:23:05
a deal with iran or and or called off an imminent invasion of iran no fewer than 39 times this is
1:23:13
why you can't yze it anymore this is why ash in northampton who's brilliant at yzing stuff
1:23:18
some days just throws his arms up in the air and goes what am i supposed to do it's like nailing
1:23:22
jelly to a wall or jello if you're american it's like herding cats how can you possibly
1:23:28
use the tools of intelligence and ysis to work out what this bloke is doing we have
1:23:36
points major points of agreement they want to make a deal and we are very willing to make a deal
1:23:42
well i think we're going to end it i can't tell you for sure when they want to make a deal so badly
1:23:47
You have no idea how badly they want to make a deal. They want to make a deal so badly
1:23:51
I do see a deal in Iran. We were very close to a deal. I think it's close to over
1:23:56
Yeah, I mean, I view it as very close to over. It's looking very good that we're going to make a deal with Iran, and it's going to be a good deal
1:24:02
This process should go very quickly. We're going to end that war very quickly
1:24:07
They want to make a deal so badly. We think we're close to a deal, and that's okay
1:24:11
We're in the final throes of what will be a very, very good deal
1:24:15
39 times now. It was funny when I first did it. It's Monday, so it must be a ceasefire
1:24:21
It's Tuesday, so it must be a glorious victory and a complete obliteration of Iranians' military capabilities
1:24:27
It's Wednesday, so it must be a vicious threat that if you don't do what we want
1:24:31
despite the fact that we've already obliterated you, then we'll invade you tomorrow. It's Thursday, so it must be that a deal is imminent
1:24:36
Any minute now they're going to sign a deal, the best deal, the greatest deal you've ever seen. It's Friday, we're back to trumpeting a potential ceasefire again
1:24:44
It's Saturday, oh no we're not, no we're not, we're going to kill them. It's Sunday, no we're not going to kill them, we're going to do a deal with them
1:24:49
It was funny when I first did that. I even enjoyed the Craig David references
1:24:53
It's not funny now. James O'Brien on LBC. 1148 is the Times, the headline across the bottom of the Sky News screen
1:25:01
Donald Trump cancels plans to launch strikes against Iran. Hands up if you were surprised
1:25:09
Hands up if you think anybody anywhere in the world was surprised. Hmm
1:25:15
Can I just check that we have all got our hands? Yeah, okay. No, that's fine
1:25:19
So, no, it's not happening. Unbelievable. And on we go. On we go
1:25:24
11.48 is the time. Back to the question of defence. Mike's in South Wales
1:25:29
Mike, what made you pick up the phone? Hey, James. I think the point I want to make
1:25:34
and I don't think if it's been made already, but it's about deterrence and spending money to deter
1:25:39
So, clearly, what we don't want to do is find ourselves in a kinetic war against Russia
1:25:46
So the 3.5% of GDP would be used to develop our forces
1:25:52
give NATO a credible force that we can use to deter the Russians. I think the lessons from history, if you look at World War I, World War II
1:25:59
is once we become engaged in a fight, A, we lose lots of our best people
1:26:04
I've got kids coming of age now. I'm still serving myself. I don't want that to happen
1:26:09
but also the outcome of that is you then increase your spending up to 50
1:26:14
sometimes more which you then spend generations paying off so in order to spend a little bit of money now
1:26:20
if that stops us in the future having to spend the next 60, 70, 80 years
1:26:25
of having to spend all of our resources on paying off debts regarding wars
1:26:30
then surely that's the message we send to the population It's a bit like thinking that you can save a few quid
1:26:36
by not paying your fire insurance and then your house burns down. I mean, the problem is, and no one has made this point before
1:26:44
so thank you for that, the problem is it doesn't undo the central conundrum this morning
1:26:51
which is that people don't really feel or believe or buy the scale and the urgency of the threat
1:27:01
So it's contingent, I think you'd agree, upon what Putin will do after Ukraine
1:27:06
which is contingent upon him winning and prevailing, which, of course, he thought he would do
1:27:10
So we may have got the memo about what he was going to do next
1:27:14
A few years ago, if Zelensky hadn't defied everybody's expectations and all the odds by putting up such an incredible fight
1:27:21
But it's either you believe that Putin has a shopping list or you don't
1:27:27
And if you believe Putin has a shopping list, then your argument becomes absolutely irresistible
1:27:32
Yeah, I agree. I think the messages haven't been put across there
1:27:37
I think we get it in the military. You all do, right? We receive it every day, but I don't understand
1:27:43
and my family gets it, but I don't understand why the messaging from this government hasn't been that clear
1:27:49
You know, clearly John Healy... And the last government. And the last government have only been in for two years
1:27:54
But John Healy and Al Khan have also failed to make the messaging clear
1:27:58
I mean, it's a little bit rich, only a little bit rich, because these are clearly principled resignations
1:28:03
to leave saying the government haven't made a clear enough case for the thing that I'm calling for
1:28:09
when, I mean, a large part of your job, surely, is to make a clear case for the thing that you're calling for
1:28:15
I mean, to a certain degree, I mean, I try to get the message out as much as possible, certainly to my family, but like I say..
1:28:20
I don't mean you, Mike, I meant John Healy and Al Carnes. I'm saying that they should be making this more clearly
1:28:26
Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, I mean, that's the point, isn't it
1:28:30
If people do understand it, if they understand that it's a little bit of money that might cost a few sectors
1:28:36
you know, a couple of percent, whatever it is, but ultimately it keeps their kids out of war
1:28:41
keeps themselves out of war, and stops spending the rest of our lives paying off debt that comes from that war
1:28:45
And everything hinges upon whether or not people feel that the enemy is at the gate
1:28:50
and the gate is a notional concept, because of course, under NATO membership
1:28:55
the gate is Estonia and Latvia, it's the borders of Estonia and Latvia, it's the border with Russia, that's the gate
1:29:01
So, of course, the enemy is at the gate. And yet, your average punter, whether they're in South Shields or Southport
1:29:07
is probably not going to feel that. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's the key territory, isn't it
1:29:12
Yeah, I mean, I'm going to go home today, actually, with a better grasp of this
1:29:16
than I had before I started talking, which doesn't always happen, but not with any big answer to the question
1:29:20
because there was a good answer to it, an obvious answer to it. John Healy and Al Karnes would have made it
1:29:26
In fact, Ben Wallace and Tom Tugendhat would have made it. And I think I owe Tom Dugan an apology
1:29:31
because I think when he talked about being at the gate, he was highlighting a problem
1:29:35
He wasn't missing the point. He was highlighting the problem of the fact that people don't know where the gate is
1:29:40
And of course the gate is where NATO membership ends. Unfortunately, we're living in a discourse at the moment
1:29:46
dominated by Trump and Farage, who are sworn enemies of NATO. As is Vladimir Putin
1:29:55
Make of that what you will. Anyway, here's his favourite breakfast. ...real. Gary's in Calais. Gary, what would you like to say
1:30:03
Hello, sir. Right. They're not at the gate, actually. They're in the breach
1:30:09
And they're getting ready to cross over. That's further than the gate, for people who are not familiar with the vocabulary of warfare
1:30:16
Okay, it's the Zulus crossing the mealy bags at Rulks Drift. I was, I'd say, I had to take a tour out of the British Army earlier this year
1:30:25
and my brief was to advise them on the Battle of the Bulge, 1944
1:30:30
Oh, yeah. They were looking at what you learn from that, lessons learned for current and future warfare
1:30:39
Current and future warfare. Right. So that was what the tour was doing. So I get on the coach, various people there
1:30:45
British Army officers from somewhere in the West Country. They are influencers
1:30:50
They are cyber warfare specialists in both defense and attack. sitting down and talking to them about what they were looking at
1:31:00
It's already happening. We're already looking. They said when you look at what we would have done 60 years ago
1:31:07
you would have bombed a motor factory in Germany, a car warehouse in Germany
1:31:12
That's an act of war. We're already looking on the internet, follow the money, and we all know where it goes to
1:31:18
where factories are being shut down via cyber. You've had issues with banks
1:31:23
You've had issues with the NHS. you've had issues with power, distribution centres, etc
1:31:28
And when they look at that back, it all goes back to one place
1:31:33
And it's going back to Russia. So I said, so really, where are we at the moment
1:31:37
And everyone on the coach knows this. They were all from the British Army
1:31:42
And they all know this. They understand this. Because the average punter doesn't, right
1:31:46
That's the problem. I know. It's not pushed. Why is it not pushed? That's the $64,000 question
1:31:53
Is it because of fear? Because I was talking to one of your radio presenters earlier this year
1:32:00
Tom Strawbridge, when it was to do with cyber warfare and the Labour Party or the government had brought in a cyber czar
1:32:05
I can't believe you're seeing other presenters, Gary. I thought we had something special. I do apologise for that
1:32:10
That's all right. The chat needs a hobby. Go on. And the czar, when I explain to him about where we are
1:32:18
the people that are even doing some of this stuff within the UK that don't even know they're actually sort of
1:32:24
they think they're talking to a teenage kid in France and they're talking to a 50-year-old Russian advisor
1:32:30
somewhere in St. Petersburg. And the guy turned around and said, well, we don't want to put panic into the country, do we
1:32:37
And that is a position, isn't it? I mean, it's a real position. That's a position. When your banking account goes..
1:32:42
Carol Cadwalader was arguing these points quite a long time ago, and she was not only misogynistically abused
1:32:49
by people like Andrew Neil, but she was kind of dismissed by people in Boris Johnson's government as well
1:32:55
So where you looked at where should the money go, the money's already being spent, we know that
1:33:01
Things like sexy-looking tanks, aircraft and ships, they're way down the line
1:33:04
It's a now situation. And if they look at what the British Army are looking at
1:33:09
all well and good. One of the things that came out was the drone warfare explosion
1:33:14
that we've seen. They've now got to a point in the Ukraine
1:33:18
and this is, Ukraine is now leading the world in drone warfare
1:33:22
certainly on the battlefield. They're looking at drones being 3D printed 20 miles from the battlefield
1:33:29
being put together with a range of, round about 40 miles. And we should be
1:33:35
going all in on that. That's your point. That's the kind of thing that we could
1:33:39
be doing and now. Off the shelf. Now. We've got influencers that we're employing
1:33:48
that they tended to be behind someone when I was speaking to them
1:33:52
And I said, what do you do? And I said, we go on. We confront pro-Russian propaganda
1:33:58
We put our own emphasis on it as well. So we need more of that as well
1:34:02
We need a lot more of that. People, I'm not going to say like yourself, but we need to push it more and more and more
1:34:07
to highlight what's happening. You can say people like me. I've got you. I've got two hours today of callers
1:34:13
who've done an awful lot of what you're describing. How big a problem is Brexit, do you think
1:34:18
How big a problem is the... It shouldn't really be a problem for this government
1:34:21
It's pretty clear whether it affected the result or not. I suppose it depends how close the result was
1:34:27
that Putin wanted Brexit, just like he wanted Trump in the White House, and that he would have deployed all the tools and all the weapons
1:34:33
that you described to make those two things happen. He also wants Nigel Farage to be in Downing Street
1:34:38
Of that we can be certain. But if you're a member of the media and you've gone all in on supporting Trump and supporting Brexit
1:34:43
and now you're tickling Nigel Farage's toes, you're not going to be very interested in making these points clear, are you
1:34:50
No. And the Russians, you've always got to remember, Russia has always meddled in European affairs
1:34:55
going back 200 years. This scale is huge. And the trouble is now is it's a bit like the 30s
1:35:01
the Nazis had a radio in every house. Now Putin's got the internet
1:35:06
Genghis Khan's got the internet. He's everywhere. And that's what you've got to confront
1:35:12
I think you're right, actually. but I've not heard it put in quite such comprehensible
1:35:17
and digestible terms in a long time, Gary. You're always great. You're such a star
1:35:23
I really love it when you call me. Even though you apparently also call other presenters
1:35:27
I'm going to let that pass on this occasion because you're such good quality
1:35:32
Thank you very much. But it is frightening. It is proper frightening, but you've done it
1:35:36
We've got to the end of the hour. Probably move on to something else next. And I think you've..
1:35:41
and the caller before, and then the mass combined contributions previously, I think probably, if everybody in the country was listening to this programme
1:35:52
God, what a better place Britain would be, eh? But if everyone in the country and in Parliament and in government
1:35:57
was listening to this programme, would probably manage to have achieved something that John Healey has apparently failed to achieve
1:36:03
which is persuading, making the case for immediate and urgent action action greater than what is currently scheduled um mind how you go gary seriously it's coming up
1:36:15
to 12 noon you're listening to james o'brien on lbc i mean quite a few of you are telling me that
1:36:21
the passing of david hockney deserves a lot more attention but we are canvassing for a good quality
1:36:27
guest to talk to us about his legacy and his importance but i'm wondering whether we should
1:36:31
just do what we always do on this program and throw open the phone lines to the question of of
1:36:37
of why he was such a significant artist, how big a hole he will leave in the pantheon of British art
1:36:44
and what it was about him and, crucially, his work that managed to touch so many people
1:36:51
James O'Brien on LBC. Three minutes after 12 is the time. Do you think it's possible, asks Eileen
1:36:57
that Putin played a part in the violent riots in Belfast? Yes, I do
1:37:03
I can tell you that Stephen Yaxley-Lennon is in Moscow as we speak
1:37:07
sharing a post showing a Russian nationalist group which will be hardcore
1:37:11
Putinistas forming a torch lit ceremony for Henry Novak not because they mourn
1:37:18
his passing but because they have chosen to completely ignore his mourning
1:37:22
father plea that nobody either turns it into a conversation about race which it isn a crime about race which it wasn or indeed an opportunity for political point scoring that they chosen like Nigel Farage these Russian nationalists have chosen to completely ignore Henry father
1:37:42
and turn it into precisely the things that they've asked that it not be turned into
1:37:47
as indeed has the family of the man that was attacked, Stephen Ogilvie, who was attacked in Belfast
1:37:54
His family have also asked for people not to turn it into an opportunity for race riots or political point scoring, as indeed did Fusilier Lee Rigby's family after he was murdered
1:38:05
They asked people not to turn it into a conversation about racism, as indeed did Alice Gross's family after she was murdered by somebody who wasn't born here
1:38:15
all of those families, all of those grieving, mourning families, asking people not to tell
1:38:20
racist lies in response to their loved one's loss, and all of them being roundly ignored
1:38:26
by people like Stephen Yaxley-Lennon and Nigel Farage. Make of that what you will, but I think
1:38:34
it's a fairly comprehensive answer to your question, Eileen. I want to move on. Eleanor
1:38:40
and I have had a minor disagreement do you mind Eleanor if I
1:38:45
share this? I mean or would you demand would you demand the right of reply
1:38:50
you would, no one's ever heard your voice before okay, so I think that we could probably do
1:39:02
an hour on the death of David Hockney probably Bradford's most famous son
1:39:07
and one of the most significant artists of the 20th century, never mind one of the most significant British artists, which
1:39:15
is obviously a much smaller constituency. Just one month short of his 89th birthday
1:39:22
he's passed away peacefully at home, or did pass away peacefully at home on the 11th of
1:39:28
June, so he died yesterday. I think we probably could. I think if I get the questions right
1:39:38
than people like Alice, who's been in touch, to say, after decades of listening to LBC
1:39:43
today is the day I pray you step up, James. David Hockney was the greatest British living artist
1:39:49
until today, or yesterday, actually, to be pedantic, Alice, and now is one of Britain's greatest ever artists
1:39:58
I'm heartbroken. I hope to hear loads about him. Who hasn't he painted
1:40:03
So many stories. The teacher who said he would amount to nothing if he followed a career in art
1:40:08
And a portrait that takes two days for him to paint can now be worth well over a million pounds
1:40:15
Goodness knows how much it will be worth today. I feel bereft
1:40:19
I am an artist and he is my icon. I'm praying LBC gets it, says Alice in Leatherhead
1:40:25
Well, it's up to you, Alice. And it's up to everybody else listening to this programme
1:40:30
to step up now and properly mark the passing of one of Britain's greatest ever artists
1:40:37
who, until yesterday, was Britain's greatest ever living artist. He'd probably be challenged, that position
1:40:44
by the likes of Lucian Freud and Francis Bacon, but they pre-deceased him
1:40:48
They passed away before he did. I love art. I can be transported by art
1:40:53
I'm not a proper esthete. I'm not a proper connoisseur when it comes to art
1:40:59
I can talk a little bit more confidently about other art forms
1:41:03
I think I'm probably at my best on drama, on plays and literature, where I can bore for England
1:41:11
And music, I have sat in concert halls and felt tears spring unprompted from my eyes as a direct, visceral, primal response to music
1:41:25
I enjoy art galleries. I have visited art galleries. And I have felt something shift inside me
1:41:31
but I'm not going to pretend that I can stand in front of a David Hockney painting
1:41:36
and feel all of the things that I feel when I'm listening to a Beethoven symphony
1:41:42
or reading Shakespeare. But I know that you do. I know that people do
1:41:48
I know that there is very much a response to art. Some art has got me over the years
1:41:56
Anthony Gormley's work, if you ever witnessed that, but that's massively in its scale
1:41:59
Wei Wei, the Chinese artist. I went to see his stuff at the Tate Modern
1:42:04
And I think the best way of describing it is almost losing time
1:42:08
Losing track of time when you are engaged in a cultural pursuit
1:42:13
So you come out of the theatre and you think, where the hell did you come out of the cinema
1:42:17
And you think, that was two hours. It feels like it was two minutes. You can be listening to a piece of music
1:42:22
and just lose yourself. Forget where you are, what you're doing. Close your eyes and you just go somewhere special
1:42:28
It's almost transcendental. I think that's the correct use of the word. And, you know, I've seen the Mona Lisa, and it's mad
1:42:35
Something happens when you look. It's tiny. It's a tiny, tiny little thing. Very misrepresented through the ages, the Mona Lisa
1:42:42
I turned up at the Louvre expecting it to be enormous. It gets its own room
1:42:47
So again, you think it must be enormous. Tiny little thing, but it's something in the eyes
1:42:50
I don't know what it is about that. It's magical, hypnotic, mesmeric. I love some artists
1:42:59
I love David Hockney's work I can look at it for hours
1:43:03
I've got art on my walls that I could only afford to buy
1:43:07
before I had children I look forward to having enough money again
1:43:11
to buy quite moderately expensive art again so I'm not a complete philistine
1:43:16
but I want you to tell me why David Hockney was so special
1:43:23
as an artist and as a man. Why was David Hockney so special
1:43:28
as both an artist and as a man? And I have no requirements, really
1:43:35
of knowledge or expertise. You can be responding as someone who drives a milk float in Basingstoke
1:43:42
as a very good friend of mine does, or you can be responding as someone who's got several degrees in fine art
1:43:48
from the finest institutions on the planet. What was it about Hockney
1:43:52
So explain either to the converted or to the unconverted what it was about David Hockney that rendered him Britain's greatest living artist
1:44:04
Until yesterday, when he passed away just shy of his 89th birthday
1:44:08
The number you need, as always on this programme, is 0345 6060 973
1:44:14
And I want to do this properly, not just because he's a Yorkshireman, which means he sort of speaks to my family background, but also because when we turn our attention to art on this programme, we're normally doing it in a slightly meta way
1:44:31
We're normally doing it in a slightly postmodern way. We might ask a question about why anyone would pay any money for a banana that's been sellotaped to a wall
1:44:40
And they're interesting conversations, but they're not really conversations about art. They're conversations about humans
1:44:48
And I want to talk about David Hockney in a way that actually just unapologetically recognises the power and the impact of both art and of the man himself Because I know quite a lot about him I know that he was a chain smoker who was quite passionately opposed to the smoking ban
1:45:11
which would normally put him on my list of people to be condemned and avoided
1:45:15
But there's a charm attached to the man that allows him to hold these ridiculous opinions
1:45:20
and not to be thought less of because of them. He smoked until the end of his life, so he's going to become..
1:45:26
Do you remember when we were kids? There'd always be someone who said, I don't think smoking is bad for you
1:45:30
because my gran smoked 50 woodbine a day, and she was 106 when she died
1:45:34
And you go, yeah, that doesn't actually prove that none of the people who died of smoking-related diseases
1:45:39
didn't die of smoking. It just proves that your gran was very lucky. So David Hockney probably gets filed into that category
1:45:48
He talked about smoking quite a lot. When I was young, of course you think you're immortal
1:45:52
That is why the young smoke, they think they're immortal. They always will
1:45:57
So for people who don't know much about him, and indeed for people who do
1:46:04
I'd invite you to tell us why. And I guess the Ray Liotta goes to someone who was painted by him
1:46:11
There must be someone listening at the moment. We've got so many listeners now, it's ridiculous
1:46:15
We've got listeners coming out of our ears. There must be somebody listening. I wonder if he ever painted Gary in Calais
1:46:20
Unfortunately, you're not allowed on twice in one day. on this programme. There must be someone listening
1:46:26
If you've never phoned a radio station before and you didn't think you ever will
1:46:30
I wonder whether you'd join me in marking the passing of the master by telling us a little bit about what it was like
1:46:35
to actually be painted by him. Because there will be. By all the laws of all the averages
1:46:41
there must be somebody listening to this programme at the moment who was painted by David Hockney
1:46:46
I'll take... Obviously, I'll take five degrees of separation as well, but the Ray Liotta will be reserved for the caller
1:46:54
who was actually painted by David Hockney. I'd love to know what it was like in his studio
1:46:59
I think Harry Styles was painted by him quite recently. If you're listening, Harry, 0345 6060 973
1:47:07
I think we deserve to know what it was like. The massacres now, of course, nobody else ever will be painted by David Hockney
1:47:13
So only you could tell us what it is actually like to be in that studio
1:47:19
But the more common, the easier perspective to adopt is the perspective of the appreciator, the aesthetic, the art lover
1:47:27
What it was about David Hockney in particular that earned him his place in the pantheon
1:47:34
What was it he did that made him Britain's greatest living artist and makes him now one of Britain's greatest ever artists
1:47:44
The numbers you need are, as always, 0345 6060 973. What made him so special
1:47:53
As an artist? And, if you're lucky enough to have an insight on this, as a man
1:47:59
This is LBC. James O'Brien on LBC. Enough people listening to this to merit an entire hour on David Hockney
1:48:07
and there's only really one way to find out. I'm not going to tell you which way round it was
1:48:11
but let's just say that Eleanor normally wins these arguments. And we're now dedicating an entire hour to the passing of David Hockney
1:48:19
Emily's in Haringey. Emily, what would you like to say? Hi. So David Hockney's one of my favourite artists
1:48:27
I love his work. Why? Colours, the composition. Well, the first thing is, is my uncle featured a lot in his paintings
1:48:34
Oh. So even though I've never met David and these paintings were somewhere even before I was born or when I was very little
1:48:42
has always been like a thing in our family. That's your uncle. I bet it has
1:48:47
Swimming in the swimming pools in LA in the 70s. Not John St. Clair
1:48:53
John St. Clair. Shut up. No, absolutely. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
1:48:59
So just a really lovely thing in our family. And obviously when my kids, King and Ace, came home from school
1:49:04
and they said, we're studying David Hockney, I was like, oh, that's your great uncle that you're studying
1:49:09
That was really nice. but his work speaks to kids as well
1:49:14
because I think the colours are so beautiful kids love colour and there's like a simplicity in his work
1:49:21
which in some ways makes it more complicated I don't know if that makes sense
1:49:26
of course it makes sense if you like art and you understand art
1:49:29
you understand how simplicity is actually very beautiful you have to be able to do the complicated stuff
1:49:36
before you can start unpacking it and doing the simple stuff Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly
1:49:42
So, yeah, I'm really sad today because, one, I would have loved to have met Hockmead
1:49:46
I had that fantasy in my head that we'd meet, and I don't know why, I just thought Monday we might meet
1:49:51
and I could tell him, but, you know. How did they know each other
1:49:57
I think just sort of on the young art scene in London in the 70s
1:50:01
I don't really know because I wasn't really born, but, yeah, I just think they kind of just knew each other
1:50:06
My uncle went to art college, so I guess that's how, yeah, I don't know
1:50:11
So you don't have any? I don't have any. I bought one once, like a copy off of eBay
1:50:17
for like 5,000, got it framed and I pretend it's my real Hockney
1:50:23
You've spoiled it now. If you ever go on Antiques Roadshow, they're going to dig this clip out
1:50:28
They're going to bust you for your fraudster. My fraud, yeah. Your uncle's not with us anymore either, I don't think
1:50:35
My uncle is alive still. Sorry, sorry. But very, very old, yeah, very old, yeah
1:50:40
So he'll be raising a glass today, metaphorically or actually. I imagine he will be
1:50:45
He used to live in a flat in Brixton. I think he had quite a few Hockneys. And my dad, before he passed, my dad died quite recently
1:50:52
And my dad said, if ever John needed money, he would get a Hockney out
1:50:56
And that was a little line that my dad would say. Well, you would, wouldn't you
1:51:00
Yeah, just a Hockney sketch, not even like a big painting. Are you an art person yourself, or you just love this guy because you have a personal connection
1:51:10
I love art. You do, so can you just have a crack at talking to me briefly about colour
1:51:16
Because I might say, well, surely anyone can do that if they've got the right paints
1:51:21
I don't think. I think it's... Maybe it's having the confidence to put the two colours together or the three colours together
1:51:28
but I think some people don't have that eye. Some people have an eye for interior design
1:51:35
and know where things go, and some people have a... Yeah, so I think Hockney had the eye
1:51:40
but I think he was a nice person. I remember there was a story years ago
1:51:44
about a young art student who, she messaged him through maybe even before the internet
1:51:49
and he faxed her, like, loads of his work. Yeah. And then when all the faxes came through
1:51:55
she had to arrange him in a certain way, and it made a big picture. He did stuff with iPads as well later in his career, didn't he
1:52:01
Yeah, he used a lot of different, what is it called? Media. Media
1:52:08
He didn't just stick to one thing. And his work is very different. If you look at early pictures to modern, they're very, you know
1:52:15
they're not all the same. No, I mean, he was constantly changing and evolving
1:52:19
He didn't become his own tribute act as some artists could do
1:52:24
But I can think of any that did And it would be rude of me to say so if I could I just looking at a bigger splash now while you were speaking at 1967 which is perhaps an example of what Emily meant when she talked about
1:52:36
some of the compositions being quite simple, albeit that I don't know how you'd paint the splash
1:52:42
unless you were possessed of a particular talent, but these incredibly symmetrical sort of Californian swimming pool scapes
1:52:49
for want of a better word. Actually, maybe there isn't a better word. with a couple of long, thin palm trees in the background
1:52:55
and then a very straight-line pool house, glass, very Californian, and then the diving board and then the splash
1:53:02
I think he described it as the split-second moment of the splash itself
1:53:06
frozen on canvas, probably best known when I was young for the swimming pool stuff
1:53:11
not the one featuring Emily's Uncle John, but the ones featuring nothing except the splash
1:53:18
the moment of the splash. But I can't tell you why that's brilliant. maybe you can tell me
1:53:24
Stuart's in deal. Stuart, what would you like to say? Good morning, how are you doing
1:53:28
I'm good, Stuart. What's on your mind? As soon as I heard what had happened
1:53:31
it kind of made me want to call in for the first time because I actually had the very good fortune
1:53:36
of spending a day with Mr. Hockney in 2002 and he drew me
1:53:42
Wow. So I have a couple of poppies of the drawing he did of me
1:53:48
and he signed one of them. So it says in the bottom corner, 29th of June, 2002, David Hockney
1:53:58
And it was just a total blast. You know, it was a total shock for this to happen
1:54:02
And still to this day, 20 odd years later, I still kind of shiver. That's mad
1:54:07
As I go through the day. I bet you do. Every time you see it, tell me what happened
1:54:11
How did you end up in his orbit? So at that time, I was working as a photographer's assistant all over London
1:54:18
and I worked with various photographers. And on this particular week, I was invited to work with a gentleman from Los Angeles
1:54:26
called Jim McHugh, who did a lot of work for a lovely magazine out there
1:54:30
called Architectural Digest. Right. And Jim and David were all mates from David's time in LA
1:54:35
Yeah. And then he called me and he said, I've just got your number from someone
1:54:39
Come and do a job with me. And day one was Michael Flatley of Riverdance fame
1:54:44
which is another story. It was a very strange day going in Michael Flatley's house
1:54:51
This is from the ridiculous to the sublime. No idea. Michael Flatley had little silver bowls all around the house
1:54:58
with his initials engraved. And photographs of himself with various people in frames and things
1:55:04
It was totally different. But then the next day in Holland Park
1:55:08
he told me that we're going to go and do David Hockney. And I still get goosebumps to this day
1:55:13
because I've followed Hockney since I was a child. I went to the Salt Air Mills to see his work up there and learn about Titus Salt, the industrialist
1:55:22
And then to find myself in his house was incredible because we spent the day photographing him
1:55:27
Him and Jim are old friends, like I said, so they got on like old friends. Yeah. And we asked David to do various things around his studio where we took these lovely photographs on big old large format cameras
1:55:40
Right. And then in between things, I think he heard my accent
1:55:44
I think he just clocked my northern accent. And he was like, where are you from, Stuart? I said, I'm from Lancashire, not too far away from you guys in Bradford
1:55:51
He goes, oh, you know about this. So then I'd chat with him about the types of salt mills, the salt mills and everything
1:55:56
Yeah. And he decided, he just kind of like put his arm around me and started taking me around his studio
1:56:02
And he took me into a room. Mate! All right, easy. No, he took me into this like antechamber, like small room in his gallery where he showed me his latest piece that had not yet been finished
1:56:16
And it was called Adam and Eve being expelled from the Garden of Eden
1:56:20
And it was like this diorama that spread from left to right in this long, oblong shape
1:56:28
And it was all made up from small pieces of A4 printer paper
1:56:34
Wow. Which he, like, blew tacked onto the wall. And then he painted on top of it
1:56:39
And I was like, what are you doing? And so, well, basically, it means I can fax it to the gallery in Los Angeles
1:56:46
and that's what they put up on the wall. So he wasn't even sending pictures
1:56:50
and he said it came about because years before in a fit of pique against
1:56:54
a gallery that was doing him over and he thought they were ripping him off
1:56:58
they kept saying you always a painting, you always a painting and he had this big canvas painting
1:57:04
in his studio that he was now getting a bit pissed off that he had to
1:57:08
excuse me had to send it to this gallery who he no longer enjoyed working with
1:57:14
so in a fitted peak he got some scissors and he cut the painting up into very into like dozens of
1:57:20
a4 pieces of canvas which he then faxed to the gallery and said there you go there's your painting
1:57:26
so that gave him the idea of this is a better way of sending things around the world so he showed me
1:57:34
this amazing painting i was very chuffed we carried on with the day and then right at the end of the
1:57:38
day as i'm clearing up all the equipment which is my job as the assistant pack down the lights look
1:57:42
after the camera gear, the lenses, the film, whatever. As I was doing that, he said to me
1:57:48
Stuart, do you have to go anywhere or do you want to stay for some supper
1:57:53
And I said, I would love to stay. I looked at Jim and Jim just nodded with a smile
1:57:58
So his assistant went and got a few cans of Guinness. David himself put a pan of pasta on
1:58:03
and I ended up sitting around the table with David Hockney having a Guinness and a bowl of pasta
1:58:09
while we talked about various things. And then out of the blue, he said, Stuart's mind if I draw you
1:58:15
And he always wears these like fisherman's jackets, these waistcoats and in each one he has little
1:58:20
pens and pencils and sketch pads. And I said, no of course not. So I sat at the table
1:58:26
while he carried on talking to Jim and he got his brown
1:58:30
felt tips out and he just did this really nice little sketch of me
1:58:34
five minutes and then he said, lovely, thank you. And then I carried on having my little Guinness
1:58:40
and my pasta just kind of shaking and just wondering what the hell's going on. I'm going to wake up in a minute
1:58:45
I'm going to wake up in a minute. Exactly, exactly, yeah. I was like, yeah, I'm going to wake up
1:58:49
and I'm in a hot air balloon. And I finally realized that it was getting a bit late
1:58:55
so it was like 8 o'clock, whatever, and I'm like, Jim, Jim, I've got to get all this kit back
1:58:59
I've got to get all this kit back. I'm in Holland Park and I've got to do this and do that. And he said, right, no problem, great
1:59:05
So I then pulled a cab, whatever, put all the kit in, said goodbye
1:59:09
and on my way out, David's assistant came to me with this manila envelope, and inside it
1:59:14
he'd done two colour copies on this, like, big printer. Yeah. And one was just the image, and on the other one
1:59:21
David had signed it and dated it in the corner. Ah. So I was just shaking
1:59:26
Oh, boy. So I kept this, and it gets worse, right? It gets worse
1:59:30
Guess what I did with it? I don't know. I lost it. Are you joking? No, but I found it again, don't worry
1:59:36
Oh, thank goodness. I took it all home. I got the kit back, blah, blah, blah
1:59:40
I found my mum and my mum said, I said to my mum, Mum, something really weird just happened
1:59:46
She's like, are you all right? I said, yes. Mum, I've just been drawn by David Hawkins
1:59:51
And she said, oh, really? Who's he? Oh, fantastic. I love mums
1:59:57
Mums are the best. Yes. In the background. His mum's stepdad is Liverpudlian as a scout
2:00:03
Yeah. And his little voice in the background shout, he's that bloke who draws boys
2:00:11
So I said, mom, no, it's David Hockney. He's one of Britain's greatest living artists
2:00:15
I'm like, oh, mom, never mind. So what I did was I framed the one he drew me
2:00:20
and I gave it to my mom as a present. And I said, there you go. That's my present to you, mom
2:00:24
A signed picture of me by David Hockney. And she gave it me back
2:00:28
She goes, I don't like it. So I then put it somewhere
2:00:33
Talk about the eye of the beholder, eh? Moved house two or three times because I was young
2:00:38
Yeah. And I couldn't find it anywhere. And I started looking for it
2:00:42
And then literally about a year ago, I found it, like wrapped up in something in amongst lots of magazines and books and things
2:00:49
And I'm very happy to have found it because... What a story. Now, of course, I've got this lovely memory of an incredible guy
2:00:55
and one of the greatest artists this country has ever produced. And I had that day. And you've been drawn by him
2:01:00
And I mean, do you know what happened to the original? Have you ever kind of... Well, it was in his notebooks
2:01:05
He's got his sketchbooks. Oh, okay. So it'll probably turn up somewhere in a retrospective
2:01:09
So the original drawing is in a sketchbook. And I remember seeing a couple of years later
2:01:16
he had a piece from the Times magazine about a new exhibition he was having
2:01:20
And as well as the watercolours and the true paintings, there was a number of sketches of people
2:01:27
and they were like people that he knew. Right. So I'm assuming that that's what he
2:01:34
you know, he's like this, just his output is quite incredible. He's not just large pieces and commission pieces
2:01:41
He just draws all the time. And he was like, you know, it was like a threat. He just, every minute he'd pick something up
2:01:47
and draw something. Yeah, of course, like the impulse. That's absolutely incredible
2:01:51
It feels a little bit, I don't know. I don't know. I don't want to pollute the magic of the moment
2:01:56
but I said there'd be a Ray Liotta for anyone who rang in who'd actually been drawn by David Hockney
2:02:01
so you'd definitely get one of these. I'm Ray Liotta, and you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
2:02:08
If you build it, they will come. We've built it, mate, but you came
2:02:12
And the Salts Mill has still got a big collection of Hockneys, hasn't it
2:02:16
The Salts Mill Centre. You know what? I haven't been up there since
2:02:20
No, because I haven't been there since about 2012. I think... So we probably need to double-check
2:02:25
before we start sending coach loads of people down to Shipley to..
2:02:29
I'd love to go again because, I mean, you know, the whole story of Titus Salt, the industrialist
2:02:35
and the way that he used his money to build schools and build hospitals and build houses is a wonderful story
2:02:40
They built a whole town, Saltaire, as you said. I mean, a kind of early philanthropist
2:02:45
well, not early, but classic philanthropist. Stuart, you're an absolute star. What a story, mate. Thank you
2:02:50
Well, thank you very much. And, you know, it's a shame on the day that this is the reason why I'm sharing this story
2:02:55
Yes, it is. But it's appropriate as well. What are you going to ring me about next time
2:02:59
This is going to take some beating. Probably Michael Flatley. I've got a story about him as well
2:03:07
It's 12.31. Matt Hewitt is here with your headline. James O'Brien on LBC
2:03:13
I'm pushing my luck a bit at the moment, eh? At the end of the conversation about defence
2:03:18
I'm patting all of us on the back for the quality of calls that we took
2:03:23
and the extraordinary array of people that we get to hang out with every day on the programme
2:03:31
And then up pop those first two callers, the niece of John St. Clair
2:03:34
who features in one of Harkney's most iconic pictures, and Stuart, who literally got drawn by the artist
2:03:43
who, if you're just joining us, I am sorry to tell you, has passed away at the age of 88
2:03:48
But I think his place in the pantheon of art, and of British art in particular
2:03:53
is assured. Why? What is it about him that created what was so phenomenal
2:04:00
As in, literally, what made him a phenomenon? And if you had personal
2:04:04
encounters with him, as Stuart did, although the bar has been set quite high, then what was it
2:04:08
about his character that rendered him so iconic? That's not a word
2:04:12
you've heard me use very often, by the way, iconic, and that's not a coincidence. Gary is in Shipley, appropriately
2:04:18
enough. Gary, what would you like to say? Hi, James, how are you doing? I'm good, Gary
2:04:23
Good. So, James, first time call, I like to call in, and literally as I'm talking to you
2:04:27
I'm sat in my car looking at Saltz Mill on Victoria Road. Oh, wow. You're there
2:04:30
So I nipped out to grab a sandwich from the sandwich shop on Victoria Road opposite Saltz Mill and heard the story
2:04:37
So my story won't beat Stuart's, but I think it's quite good anyway
2:04:40
I'm sure it is. So a few years ago, I was asked to go and survey a house
2:04:46
to carry out jobs in there, the work that I do, and I was given a name of a French chap to go and meet
2:04:52
So as I get to this house on the east coast of Yorkshire, a French guy answered, I feel like I can't remember his name
2:04:59
but he says, yeah, come and expect me. As I walked into the house, there's a big poster on the wall of..
2:05:04
It was Jean-Pierre Gonsalves de Lima that you met, I think. That's him, Jean-Pierre, absolutely
2:05:12
So there's a big poster on the wall of David Hockney. So as I walked past this poster following Jean-Pierre
2:05:18
I said, that's David Hockney. And he sort of looked at me a bit strange. and we went into the lounge and sat down
2:05:23
And who walked in? David Hockney. I thought you were going to say Michael Flatley then
2:05:29
Yeah, I know. So absolutely, as you can imagine, absolutely gobsmacked. So I'm from Shipley
2:05:38
So David's very well known around these parts. And so I then get on to do what I need to do in the house
2:05:46
and go to the studio. And in the studio, very similar to maybe what the chap was
2:05:50
mentioned earlier, is halfway through some works. And one of the works that I
2:05:54
think is the right one is there's a big painting that he did of
2:05:59
some trees that and then he cut the painting into three pieces. And I'm pretty certain
2:06:04
he was actually doing that in the time that I was in his house in his studio. While you were there
2:06:09
Whilst I was there in the studio that Stuart mentioned. If he's listening to the
2:06:12
Stuart, he's probably nodding his head because he'll know what I'm talking about. But then I bumped into David as I'm
2:06:18
walking around and he said, and very the same as well, he picked up on the act and he says
2:06:22
where are you from then So I said I from Shipley And he went amazing He says do you mind having a cup of tea before you leave No Yeah So again what Stuart said where he was sat having a cup of tea with a little
2:06:34
table, it's in his kitchen. And he had a little table and he made a cup of tea and we sat
2:06:39
down and he must have smoked about a hundred cigarettes, James, whilst we were there, because
2:06:43
he was a heavy smoker. And he kept saying, I can't go back. It's not as easy for me to
2:06:48
go back nowadays. He says, but is this still there? Is that still there? And then we're
2:06:52
We were talking about places around Shipley and Salter that he remembers
2:06:57
And I'm going, yeah, that's it. I know that went years ago. I know that David. So I must have spent two hours in his kitchen drinking tea
2:07:04
talking about Shipley and Salter. And this is right. Thank you very much for your time
2:07:09
How incredible. How absolutely incredible. How did you know about him? Was it because he was a local lad and you'd been to Salter
2:07:17
Yeah. So the salt mills were out on my doorstep. And I took my daughter on there
2:07:22
when we were kids, as a young kid, I've been around there myself
2:07:26
and if you're familiar with this neck of the woods, it's by a park called
2:07:30
Roberts Park, which is in the village of Titus, which is Titus Salt
2:07:33
Named for Titus Salt, of course. So this is my hometown. So it's always been there
2:07:39
But to actually sit in that guy's room, and I've never been star
2:07:43
I've never met a star, Dave. Sorry, James. When that guy walked in, I was absolutely
2:07:50
gobsmacked, amazed. But we're a nice guy. So that's my story. Do you know what I'm thinking now
2:07:55
I'm wondering whether my dad had any encounters with him because my dad's first ever job was on the Shipley Times and Express
2:08:01
Oh, yeah, well, yeah, I remember that. Which isn't, of course, which isn't around anymore
2:08:05
Like an awful lot of local papers, but I don't think I've had a conversation with him
2:08:09
about a potential David Hockney connection, but it's not beyond all possibility, is it
2:08:15
What a lovely story. And what were you surveying it for? Were they putting it on the market? No, no, a system to fit inside that
2:08:21
It was a fire alarm. Oh, okie dokie. Okay, well, yeah, crikey. Very important
2:08:25
Interestingly enough, Jim, sorry, that Shipley Times and Express, I used to deliver that as a paperboy as a teenager
2:08:31
Did you really? What year would that be? Oh, God, 1982, 1981
2:08:37
My dad was long gone by then. I think he'd have been there in the late 50s
2:08:42
He used to call it the Shipley Times and Distress. Yeah, well, Shipley Times and the Express office
2:08:48
is now a little bar. Is it? Oh, there you go. I've got a gig in Leeds in October
2:08:53
I shall try and pop in and raise a glass to both of you, Gary
2:08:57
Lovely stuff. Take care. Whoa! 1240 is the time. Absolutely beautiful stuff
2:09:03
And interesting that the two personal encounters with him that we've heard both involve a real interest in the people he was meeting
2:09:10
even as one of the most instantly recognisable artists on the planet
2:09:14
whether it was a photographer's assistant in Holland Park or a fire alarm engineer in West Yorkshire
2:09:21
He wanted to know more about both of them, wanted to find out more about both of them
2:09:25
Oh, that lovely-sounding man. Anne is in Wilsdon Green. Anne, what would you like to say
2:09:30
Well, I was fortunate in that in 1976, when his first book, David Hockney by David Hockney
2:09:38
had a civic reception in the Cartwright Hall in Bradford, I was the Bradford reporter for BBC Radio Leeds
2:09:46
And I loved his work. And so I got permission to spend a day with him
2:09:53
both at the civic reception, meet his parents and whatever, and made a programme, a 45-minute programme about him
2:10:02
And basically, can I just say one thing to start with? Take all the time in the world, then
2:10:08
You've got all the time in the world. When he, a very dear friend whose name I can't remember
2:10:15
I'm in my mid-80s now. But when a very dear friend of his died
2:10:21
I've always collected quotes. And I've got this one. I got my quotes out
2:10:26
And he said, David Hockney said, after something that really hit him hard
2:10:31
and we've all had deaths like that, Life is a celebration. However bad life gets, put some joy there
2:10:40
Oof. Well, he did that, didn't he? To me, he was a wonderful person
2:10:46
I loved his art. He was very versatile. And as some of your previous callers have said, of course, it's his color, his versatility
2:10:54
But he was a lovely person. And, of course, the other thing I would say is that in 76, the whole homosexual thing, I used to cover Bradford Council as well
2:11:06
Because I was the Bradford reporter. I did Bradford City football. I was there when he went up in the division and covered it
2:11:12
I was one of the first women to... Anyway, right, David Hockney, the point is that the council had a big debate
2:11:22
I covered the debate, on whether the Gay Liberation Front could actually use one of their premises for a conference
2:11:31
And one of the councillors, and obviously I can't remember the names now, I wrote a poem, that was the year 76
2:11:37
they made a decision in Bradford Council none of these lepers, that was the word used
2:11:42
in our city they pollute the children that's the quote and so that well known homosexual organisation
2:11:50
was refused but that was the year that David Hockney famous son was awarded a civic reception
2:11:57
when asked about it I mean in fact at the time the chairwoman of the relevant committee
2:12:02
said ah but he's a famous painter so they don't mean him
2:12:08
and the thing is his parents who were wonderful and I mean he did lots of beautiful
2:12:14
paintings of his mum and he was very close to his sister as well
2:12:18
Kate I think her name is and his brother of course Paul
2:12:22
I don't know he was mayor of Bradford so of course that's how I got
2:12:27
so much access because of course Paul was anyhow but the point is
2:12:35
his parents, you know, were ordinary people. And I remember asking his mother, you know
2:12:43
how she felt about David being gay. Because at the time you know the lot of people 1976 we still in the dark ages right It still illegal Absolutely Was it Well no no no It became legal in 68 because I chaired Sir John Wolfenden
2:13:01
Anyway, there's so many stories. You've led a life, Anne, haven't you? I have
2:13:05
The point is his mum, and I can still see her now, especially with all his paintings of her
2:13:10
and she said, oh, well, yes, but he's our son. He's our son
2:13:15
We love him a lot. He's our son, because they were quite religious. So, I mean, I think his work appeals on so, you know, think of his opera stuff
2:13:25
And it does bring joy to people. Joy is the right word. It's exactly the right word
2:13:31
Tell us again that quote. Life is a celebration. However bad life gets, put some joy there
2:13:39
You honour his memory, Anne. Thank you. And can I just say, before I go
2:13:45
I've been listening to you for a while, I used to do years
2:13:50
of phone-ins and basically I really really enjoy and I've been tempted so many
2:13:58
times to ring in particularly about what's going on in Gaza but when I got in
2:14:04
from doing mundane thing my shop and heard that David had died and I've got
2:14:10
as I say about 10, 12 books, I thought actually today's the day yes so but thank you for the joy and interest and sense you you re
2:14:24
relive my i was ashamed to be a journalist because of what is going on in the mainstream
2:14:29
media in this country and you have reignited my belief in journalism
2:14:34
blimey well you've just brought some joy into my life then so thank you thank you and i'll
2:14:42
continue listening. Wonderfully, you've got somebody who was drawn by him. I know
2:14:48
I know. What a day, eh? And he was so... We had lunch
2:14:52
and we... I mean, he was so approachable. It had no side
2:14:56
to him. He was a wonderful man and I'm very sorry he's died
2:15:00
but I have that quote of his that we all... Well, I've got you. So, what did you say
2:15:08
your involvement in the Wolfenden Committee was? I wasn't in the committee
2:15:12
It was at the time, at the time, no, I was a student and there was a, funnily enough, I'm now a secularist totally, but I was a student
2:15:28
Christine Moon used to have meetings in the University of London Union to discuss topics
2:15:34
and basically I was chairing a meeting with him which you won't believe this
2:15:45
I was called to the side to a phone and it's funny like your
2:15:51
researcher Ashley did you know you have to ask a question to check the validity of what
2:15:56
the person is saying and they said so the meeting was about making homosexuality
2:16:04
legal. It was since 64, was it? You'd be able to give me the date. I think it's 64
2:16:10
And basically, because we felt very strongly that it should be, and
2:16:16
I was called to the side, and the person said, basically, it's on Reuters
2:16:24
but President Kennedy's just been shot. Oh, blimey. And I said, look, I've got, you know
2:16:31
several hundred people here. Sir John Wilfenden, how can I believe you
2:16:36
And again, she said, I'm ringing from the BBC. Anyway, and so obviously..
2:16:44
You wouldn't forget that in a hurry. That's burnt in your memory. November 63, it would have been, I think
2:16:48
Yes, I was going to say 64. And the point is, obviously we were halfway through the meeting
2:16:56
but everybody stopped it because... Yes, of course. Flipping, eh? Yes! Have you published a memoir
2:17:06
Well, hurry up. And thank you. Oh, James, I love the way that, again, is one of your skills
2:17:14
You go from laughing to very serious. You're so kind. Thank you so much
2:17:20
I'm sure the phones are buzzing with other people who have Hockley stories
2:17:24
Well, don't worry about them. I've got to do the break, though. You know how it works. Well, you don't, actually. You work for the BBC
2:17:28
You never had to do commercial breaks, Sam. But we do. Thank you so much for everything you said, especially the bits about me
2:17:37
That was, yeah, thank you. James O'Brien on LBC. I just want to give a shout out to my mate Michael Holt, the hitman Holt
2:17:46
30 years he's been a professional snooker player. Yesterday he got his first ever maximum, 147, if you didn't know, while qualifying for the China Open
2:17:56
It's a bit unfair of one of the sports websites to describe him and Jimmy White as fellow veterans
2:18:03
He might have been doing it for 30 years, but he's still quite a lot younger than Jimmy
2:18:07
But there you go. Well done, Michael. That is an extraordinary result
2:18:11
6-1 victory in that round as well. But 30-year career before. It's an inspiration to us all, right
2:18:16
Just keep on keeping on and it will happen. And I also wanted to mention Kevin Sinfield
2:18:21
who I had the pleasure of sort of encountering when I was doing something for Rob Burrow
2:18:29
and his extraordinary charity work and Kevin, of course, famous for honouring the memory of his late friend Rob
2:18:36
and he, it is reported today, is set to get a knighthood. Full disclosure this week is with Fat Tony
2:18:42
who becomes the third or fourth superstar DJ to appear on Full Disclosure
2:18:47
Off the top of my head, we've done Graham Park and Dave Haslam and now we've done Fat Tony
2:18:50
we haven't done Keith yet but you know maybe one day Keith um I mean this is a story I don't know
2:18:57
how familiar you are with with his with his backstory but it goes into the very depths of
2:19:02
hideous addiction and he tells it unstintingly in his first book his second book is out is out now
2:19:08
but um I as ever as a former raver an unreformed raver I was just as interested in the DJing side
2:19:16
of things as I was in the personal life but we cover it all in the space of full disclosure this little clip looks more at the the alchemy of um of djing people would be like oh my god tony playing this tony playing that
2:19:30
because i played music that no one else had heard in those in the club at that point cafe de paris
2:19:34
on a wednesday night albert from paris used to play like cha-cha music and and latin music and
2:19:43
And then I would go on at one o'clock, 1 a.m., and play one till three
2:19:47
and I would play early house electro. And where were you hearing that? I was hearing that in Great Gear Market
2:19:52
Got it, okay. I was in the center, you know, I was working behind the record store
2:19:56
where everyone got their records from. So I literally would hear all of that stuff constantly
2:20:01
Also, at that point in time, I was going out clubbing every night of the week
2:20:05
So I knew exactly what- And finding out what you were listening to. Exactly that
2:20:09
By what, talking to the dealers? Yeah, I'd go up and ask them, what's this? Well, so we didn't have Shazam then
2:20:13
No, of course not. And then you're buying records. Yeah, totally. And also, you know, I very quickly became
2:20:20
because of who and what I hang around with, people gave me their records
2:20:24
People wanted me to play their tracks. And this happened so quick
2:20:28
Paul Oakenfold used to be an A&R man. Yeah, I know. And he used to bring me the tracks every Friday and Saturday
2:20:35
in brown envelopes. And he used to give me like 10 tracks. And I'd be like, thanks
2:20:41
And of course I'll be like, oh God, he's really annoying. And there were certain times where I just couldn't be bothered to carry them and I'd
2:20:48
throw them in the bin. And it was like, that was how facetious and what a little brat I was
2:20:54
But you knew a banger when you heard a banger? Oh, 100%. 100%
2:20:58
Could you put it into words or could you just feel it in your bones? Well, as soon as I would play them in the club and I'd be like, oh, this is incredible
2:21:04
Look at that. You can probably tell. But there is a heck of a lot more to that interview than just the music
2:21:09
That's a fat turning on full disclosure this week. Back to David Hockney
2:21:13
What an incredible selection of stories. Michael is in Kensington. Michael, what made you pick up the phone
2:21:18
So I have a cool story. I'll be the judge of that, Michael
2:21:23
I know, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. So back in the early 90s
2:21:26
I was friends with an artist who had one of these really cool art gallop
2:21:33
He was in his workshop, was in one of these old warehouse buildings
2:21:38
in Jersey City. opposite Manhattan. Okay. In the 90s, it was totally abandoned
2:21:43
It was a terrible area. And he would create art by making sculptures from debris. Okay
2:21:49
So he's going through the debris behind his warehouse where all these artists and people lived
2:21:55
And he found a Hockney. And he took the Hockney and he sold the Hockney and he funded a clinic in India, in one of
2:22:06
the poorest districts in India. and to this day that clinic is one of the few clinics
2:22:13
if not the only one, that serves that district of villages. So David Hockney, unbeknownst to him
2:22:21
funded a health clinic in India, which I thought was really cool. That's incredible and it's still there now
2:22:26
It's still there. Your friend was a remarkable person then for not sort of, you know, buying himself a Rolls Royce or something
2:22:33
Absolutely and he has devoted his life to that kind of philanthropy
2:22:38
So I thought it was very cool. That's a beautiful story, and you're absolutely right
2:22:42
It is cool. It's extremely cool. Thank you, Michael. I think we could squeeze in one more caller today
2:22:48
Nicola is in West Hampstead. Nicola, what would you like to say? Oh, thanks for having me on
2:22:52
I want to pay tribute to this great man. I told your researcher that he was very important to me
2:22:59
when I was at art school in the 60s. Ah, yes. Because I was at St. Martin's
2:23:05
A bit later than him, he'd been at the Royal College of Art. But what he did that was so significant was summed up by the guy in the background of your amazing caller talking about being drawn by him
2:23:20
The guy saying, the bloke who paints boys. He did. He painted his own life as a gay man
2:23:29
He painted his boyfriends. He drew them. He made his life his lifelong subject
2:23:37
and that was a wonderful revelation for me as a young art student
2:23:43
because I was able then to think, yeah, I can make my own life my subject
2:23:51
and that was very important. And you did. And he showed the way
2:23:55
He gave validation to that, which was then, you know, it was all a bit academic and abstract expressionism
2:24:04
and, you know, making your own life the subject of your art
2:24:10
was a little bit, you know, not considered the best. No, I'm so glad you were listening today
2:24:14
I never would have got that insight without you. And, of course, it speaks to the absolute heart of him
2:24:19
and his work and his appeal. And it makes him a pioneer as well, of course
2:24:24
Yes, and the other thing was he was totally himself and that was his success
2:24:32
He became very successful from a very early age. He went off to America
2:24:38
He was already being represented by galleries, having shows, you know, and you thought, wow
2:24:45
And he was an art star. Yeah, for sure. He was a society figure
2:24:49
He was photographed. He was glamorous. Photographed by Stuart. Stuart, yeah. Yeah
2:24:54
Lovely symmetry too. Throughout his life. Yes, and I mean, I don't use the word iconic very often for a reason
2:25:00
because then I can use it to the nth degree on a day like today, Nicola
2:25:05
Truly iconic, both professionally and personally. Thank you so much. What an extraordinary hour
2:25:10
I'm going to end it, given that there's such lovely feelings in the room, with a little message to Janet Davis
2:25:13
who's currently recovering from a stroke in Winchester Hospital. And her friend Wendy tells me that you are my biggest fan, Janet
2:25:21
Although there is an awful lot of competition for that title. You can have it for today
2:25:25
And I wish you a full and speedy recovery, Janet. Stay safe
2:25:28
if you missed any of today's show you can listen back on our free global player
2:25:32
or the LBC app where you can stay up to date with all the latest news videos and opinions
2:25:36
a range of podcasts including Fat Tony on full disclosure so do download the official LBC app
2:25:41
for free from your app store now Simon Marks still in the chair for Tom Swarbrick today
2:25:45
but now it's time for Sheila Faye James O'Brien on LBC
#news