Is the Piddington row about racism or maleness?| James O'Brien - The Whole Show

Three minutes after ten is the time. A very good morning indeed to you

285 people cast a vote in a referendum that is, even by the standards of referendums

utterly pointless and spurious in terms of anything substantive or meaningful. And as Nick Ferrari explained on a couple of occasions earlier this morning

not just the countries, but the world's media has developed and, well, borderline obsession with the issue

I hate it when that happens. I start my introduction. I've thought of a question that's slightly different

from the one that I was intending to ask. Why? Why? Japanese media turning up in Piddington

What is it about stories involving the accommodation of asylum seekers that pushes so many buttons

We may get on to that. And I'll say the number again

285 people for succession. What would the correct word be? withdrawal from the united kingdom i don't know and um 26 that would be brave wouldn't it in a

in a context or in an environment where the uh the whole point of doing it was to deliver the result

that was delivered and 26 voted no um a couple of causes for concern one of the key organizers has

appealed to donald trump and elon musk which would suggest he cares neither about humanity or indeed

democracy or for that matter decency but that is not the key point about this moment the key point

about this moment is is what is actually going on now i am never reluctant to call racists racist

um it is fairly easy to determine what racism is in fact the more people squeal about being called

racist the more likely it is that they know in their dark heart that they are that they do decide

what they think about somebody, in part based upon their ethnicity. If, for example, two people were to commit the same crime

and you felt more disturbed, more aggrieved by one of them because they were of a certain ethnicity

perhaps of an ethnicity different from yours, then you would be indulging in racism

I mean, you wouldn't necessarily be a candidate for joining the Ku Klux Klan any time soon

but you would be indulging in racism. You would be doing the opposite of what Martin Luther King

passionately argued for, and you would be judging people by the colour of their skin

You would be treating people according to the colour of their skin, as opposed to

the contents of their heart, as opposed to their character or their behaviour, even

because you're judging somebody who has behaved in exactly the same way, differently. To that end, we can say with some confidence that recent years in Brexit Britain have seen

or has seen racism appear in contexts where it had previously been, if you like, contained

Most obviously, I suppose, when a bunch of people turn up to protest outside a repurposed hotel that contains asylum seekers

and a plurality of the people arrested at those Farage riots turn out to have come to the attention of the authorities themselves over domestic abuse allegations

then it becomes very hard for anybody to argue that these are motivated

these positions are motivated by concern about women. A woman got beaten up in Birmingham at the weekend

Two women, in fact, got assaulted viciously in Birmingham at the weekend in the conference hall of a mainstream political party in this country

And senior politicians from that party competed to see who could care the least

about the plight of that young woman. That's not racism. that's probably a form of misogyny or dishonesty

as in we pretend to care about the welfare of women, but only if it allows us to be a little bit racist

I.e. to care only about women when we are responding to them being vulnerable

to crimes committed by or the attentions of men from ethnic minorities

And so I'm just establishing my credentials there on calling racists racist

I would hope that nobody would argue with that description. It is something I'm more than, well, I'm not happy to do

because I wish there wasn't any racism in the world, but I'm certainly not shy of calling racists racist

I remember Nigel Farage sitting in the studio denying he was a racist

and say, well, what is a racist anyway? And the only correct response to that, of course

is how on earth can you deny that you're something if you don't know what it means

and so to Piddington where I do not currently believe that the 285 people who voted to leave England

or to become independent from the United Kingdom are racist and I think it's important to have this conversation

you are entitled to believe that they are and you are welcome indeed

encouraged to tell me why I'm wrong but it was actually a call to Nick

that sent my mind going off in a slightly different direction from where it was before

I think the phrase fighting age is ridiculous, by the way, because it might just as well be working age

I think we can agree about that. In fact, I would say that the phrase fighting age is born of racism

It's an attempt to persuade you that that brown man there who has come here from the Middle East is a threat to you

And that white man there, who's exactly the same age and has a criminal record as long as your arm

is not a threat to you. So fighting age is probably a racist label

It's designed to make you judge people differently according to their origins

Working age would apply equally, you see. If we were to say working age

I don't think there would be any subtext. I wouldn't be trying to turn you against somebody

based entirely upon their origins. So we can park fighting age as a phrase

and concede that if you like that phrase, then you're a bigot

and we can replace it with working age because that seems to me to be a lot more pertinent

and a lot more universal and therefore a lot more useful and we can count, because counting is important

1,256 working age men and we can count the population of the village

which stands at about 350 and we can wonder what it would be like

to live in a tiny little village like that. No shop, I don't think. It's got nothing, really

I don't think it's even got a pub. And the prospect of 1,256 men

being parked up the road with nothing to do all day is a cause for concern

and there it is now an enormous amount of effort in recent years has been put into persuading

people in this country very successfully that all refugees all asylum seekers are violent or sex

offenders or both um this effort is of course expended by the same people often who are

comfortable with watching women being beaten up at their own party conferences and indeed by people who got absolutely nothing to say about the huge majority of crimes that are committed by men that look like me and indeed like them So again it not hard to work out what racism is and what racism looks like

but it's worked, you see. It's worked. You don't have to be in the bowels of Twitter

to know that many, many people who've got no experience whatsoever of refugees or asylum seekers

have been successfully persuaded that they are all violent sex offenders. Or that most of them even are violent sex offenders

The other thing you have to do to sustain this petition is pretend not to understand

or to be fair, to not understand why the only way to come to this country

from areas that we would once have all agreed we should be inviting refugees and accepting refugees from

is technically illegal. The Tories shut down all the safe and legal routes

even from countries where British military have been deployed, where situations were so urgent

that it was felt we needed to intervene militarily. You can't get here from there now

except by technically breaking the law. So, again, a phrase like, they've broken into this country

or Tories saying they shouldn't be here at all. you've shut down all the safe and legal routes

So if you want to opt out of humanity itself, then that's fine

Leave the European Convention on Human Rights and ban asylum. Or end up like Donald Trump

and invite white asylum seekers from South Africa into your country while, in the first time at least

trying to ban everybody from a Muslim country. I mean, again, racist, obviously

Let's not waste any energy discussing or debating that. and that is where i struggle or at least that's where i begin to to to struggle i certainly

struggle for clarity at this point i after brexit as you probably know i coined a phrase

content for the con men compassion for the con i don't apply it anymore to brexit because if

you're still clinging to the carcass of that ridiculous exercise then i can't help you anymore

you know you've chosen to ignore the evidence of your eyes and ears and that of course makes you largely unreachable

But in terms of the people who simply believe that the people who probably don't know

about the criminal records of the majority of people or a plurality of people arrested at the Epping Hotel protests

but who genuinely think that women are vulnerable, women are under threat from these men and not those men

They're under threat from the men in the hotels, not from the men outside the hotels

People genuinely believe that. And I don't know where the line is between persuaded to believe something by dishonest and often despicable people

and simply choosing to believe something that is racist because, I don't know, it comforts you or you like it

The question really, and I hope I haven't overcomplicated it, but if I have, you're used to it by now

The question really is about how much of this is about ethnicity

and how much of it is about masculinity. Because if it's about masculinity, then it's not racist

It's not racist. I've lived in areas where there were big barracks

you know, big concentrations of... I suppose if you're talking about soldiers

you're probably more comfortable saying fighting-age men And then you are people who want nothing more than to become accountants or swimming pool attendants

I've lived in areas where there have been big barracks. And there's great tension with the local community

You know, weekends, when people are on leave or when they're allowed off base

you have this great population of people descending on parts of the country that are quite rural and quite small

And it causes tensions. It causes tensions with local men, of course

but it also creates tense environments in local hostelries. That's not really going to apply in Piddington

because there's only 350 people in the village and there aren't any hostelries or even shops

But a concentration of men can be intimidating. Not just for women, it can be intimidating for men

I mean, who here, apart perhaps from, I don't know, Tyson Fury

will walk through a park and go past a picnic table where six lads with their hoods up

listening to music and muttering to each other and looking like teenagers or early 20s people have always looked

But you walk past them, even as a grown man, and there's a slightly different feeling from what there would be

But there's a very different feeling from what there would be if it was six old-age pensioners having a cream tea

You just, you are on edge sometimes. Particularly, of course, if they've chosen to cover their faces or wear masks

So, it was tempting. And I've seen a lot of people do it to describe Piddington this morning in pejorative terms, to talk about Little England or to talk even about racism or to talk about a bigotry

and I currently don't think it's fair because if you were to park 1256 men

on the fringes of any village with nothing to do all day, with nothing to do all day

I don't think you can blame the people in that village for being a bit perturbed or a bit concerned

Look, some of them will be racist. Of course they will. Some of them would be comfortable

I presume, with 1256 white men being parked on the fringes of their village

but some of them have been persuaded, if you like, that the asylum seeker, that the refugee

is not a deserving recipient of our largesse, but is instead a crime waiting to happen

or a crime that's already happened. But I don't think that it's fair to simply say

that this is a racist reaction. so 03456060973

I'm not saying it's fair to think that all men are potential

sex offenders but I think a lot of people do I think

I mean the feminist mantra from the 1970s or 80s would be

that all men are rapists all men are rapists something that I find offensive in a way

I find it deeply unfair But how do we know? How do we know

0345 6060 973. Draw on anything you want. I'm not sure what you're going to draw on, actually, today

But draw on anything you want and just tell me, I mean, am I sounding Pollyanna-ish

Am I sounding rose-tinted spectacles? Am I sounding naive and idealistic and all those things

that some people think are great strengths in their character and some people think are great weaknesses

or am I making perfect sense? How do we know how much of this is about men a congregation of men and how much of it is about a congregation of foreign men How important is the word foreign in the tale of Piddington 0345 6060 973

Can you answer that? And listen, by all means, tell me that I've got this completely wrong

but I don't want to be completely wrong, because if I'm completely wrong, then these people in Pittington have been successfully persuaded to a position that you consider to be bigoted or racist

or both. How important do you think the word foreign is in this conversation? And therefore

how fair is it to presume that the people of Pittington have cast effectively a racist vote

19 minutes after 10 is the time. Hit the numbers now. You will get through. 0345 6060 973

is the number that you need. In other words, like undocumented and fighting age

these I don't think are helpful. They're very powerful, very emotive. But how many men walking towards you down the road tomorrow night

will you know the details or the history of? You know, how many people living on your street

have got criminal records? How many of the people, how many of the parents in your children's class

have got criminal records? How many sex offenders are there in your Pilates? You just don't know

So I find undocumented unhelpful. That's the whole point about an application process

is that you are seeking to create documentation. But how significant is the word foreign in this conversation

Are these people objecting to the foreignness of these men, or the maleness

Hit the numbers now, you will get through. James O'Brien on LBC

22 minutes after 10, and the nature of my existence, of course, is such that I spend much of my life being accused of calling people racist too easily and too often

Today, I think, might shape up to be one of those days where I am accused a little bit more affectionately

and warmly of not calling people racist readily or frequently enough. Because we're talking about the people of Piddington, their vote to leave the United Kingdom

because 1,256 asylum seekers are set to be barracked at a military property just outside their village

M.O.D. Bista, to be precise. How much of this is about the fact that the men are foreign

and how much of it is about the fact that the men are men? And how do we know

David's in Bayswater. David, what would you like to say? Oh, hi, James, yeah. So, yeah, basically, to be transparent

I'm a brown person myself, so to start off with. Yeah, so I think that this is basically, there's a strong degree of racism in the reaction

That is not to say that the people are racist. Because if it was 1,200 priests in training, 1,200 military men in training, whatever, they would not have had this reaction

Black priests? Priests? Black priests. Yeah, well, no, just priests in general

Yeah, but I'm saying black priests, because you're saying it's definitely not racist, it's definitely racist

Yeah, I mean, I think that might make it a bit more complex

Am I splitting your split hair unhelpfully here? Okay, what about Ukrainians

We're going to put 1,256, well, they wouldn't necessarily be undocumented, fighting age Ukrainian men in..

Yeah, I honestly believe the reaction wouldn't be as strong because the majority of these people are non-white

the ones who are going to be in this camp. so I think there's a strong

but if it was 1,200 mainly white prisoners then there would be a strong reaction

so I think ergo the assumption underlying this reaction is that a lot of these guys

or these refugees are criminal and I think that's where the racism comes in because they've swallowed the

rhetoric from reform that a lot of these people are criminal that's my theory anyway

is that racist though? If you're swallowing rhetoric It doesn't mean you're arriving at these people

No, no, I said the reaction was racist. I didn't say the people were racist. Oh, okay

Yeah, yeah. But, James, did you see that woman who was interviewed? Like, she lived in the village and she started crying

She was on the TV. She's married to an Afro-Caribbean man, and she said she didn't realise people in the village were so racist

until this came up and their reaction. Yeah, and she was crying because she's got two mixed-race kids

Was this on Newsnight? Yes, that's right. A lot of people are telling me about this

We'll dig this clip out from Newsnight and play it. Yeah, exactly

So that betrays maybe... Maybe that's more evidence to say that there is more racism in that village

than we might think. You know what I mean? Well, yeah. I mean, I would like to reassure her

that this vote doesn't mean that anybody is going to look askance at her children

But how would you go about doing that? I mean, I think we might play the clip

and add that question to our list. But how would I say to her, just because they're treating these men differently

according to their skin colour than they would other men with the same skin colour. Because if they were prisoners, they'd feel this way

But those are people who have committed... So these men are guilty until proven innocent

as opposed to innocent until proven guilty. Yeah, exactly. But James, one more thing as well

I think circumstantially speaking, if you have 312 mainly white people living together

and don't have much experience of ethnic minorities, that's a breeding ground for kind of stereotypes and so on

because it's like an algorithm, isn't it? They just reinforce each other's stereotypes

So I think that kind of environment is more likely to have people... It's Oxfordshire. It's not, you know, it's not the boondocks

But yeah, there is an insular nature. I grew up in a tiny little village in Worcestershire

although it did have a pub. I mean, I suppose things are a little bit more insular

and you are more likely to be frightened of things you are not familiar with

than you are by things that you are. how significant, I hope it doesn't sound like

I'm trying to make excuses for people who've had a racist reaction but how significant is the fact that these men

have nothing to do all day you know, again, perhaps naively, my patriotic heart beats

a little faster at the idea that everybody would calm down if they were busy all day, if they weren't just

sort of... Well, yeah, I think that would help, I think if they were gainfully

implied doing something so the people I think that might help, but also, this sounds

a bit draconian but they're allowed to leave that area and i feel like if they weren't for like a

certain number of hours a day then people will be assured they can't just wander into the village

does that sound really terrible no i don't think it does i mean that to me seems to also be

relevant so we're making a list of things that are relevant to the objections that the ethnicity

is clearly one of them but not necessarily for everybody the masculinity is is clearly one of

them, probably for everybody who is objecting. And then, what would the word be? I don't want to say idleness

because they haven't chosen to do nothing all day, but the idleness

the fact that they don't do anything all day, means that they're more likely to be hanging around

and I'm sure they'd rather be doing something useful. How do we tell the

difference, then, between somebody who is having a racist reaction to this and somebody who isn't

Well, one would have to have a Socratic conversation with them. I'm all for Socratic

conversations, David. Don't you think so, James? You'd have to delve deeper

into their other attitudes But I think someone who really was not racist they would not have an automatic reaction like this Do you not Do you not No I mean it difficult You know I a non person so I don know

You have a different... I am a white person, so I have privilege. I have privilege. You have experienced things

Yeah, but I don't think you should drone on about that too much because I think you could also be sensitive and understand, James

Just because you're white doesn't mean you can't understand, But I feel like it's much easier for a white person maybe to have a prejudice and not be aware of it than a brown person

Yeah, that's all I was saying. That's all I was saying. But I apologize if it seemed like I was droning on

No, no, no. I didn't mean to say that. Sorry, James. I didn't mean to say droning on

I know you didn't. I know you didn't. Thank you. What a great first call. So, you know, just three things on the list

The ethnicity of these people, the status of these people, the fact that they are refugees

You know, if it was 1,256 brown footballers or brown-skinned trainee priests, would the reaction be different

The idea that all refugees are dangerous has taken hold. It's yet another brilliant success by Nigel Farage and his mates

After the great nation-enhancing experiences of Brexit and Boris Johnson's premiership and Liz Truss's budget

Nigel's done it again. He's had another massive victory. Everybody hates or is frightened of refugees

So that's relevant. Just the ethnicity in general. Because remember, this is a country where politicians now can say

they don't like seeing brown faces on the television without facing any consequence. The masculinity

I'd almost like to think that that was a bigger problem than some of the other things

And then the fact that they do nothing all day. That's the one I would subscribe to

I'd be sitting there and say, look, I don't care where they come from, but can't we find something for them to do all day

because otherwise it's just, they're going to become human clutter. They're going to become human clutter on the streets of a tiny village

That seems to me to be both pragmatic and principled, not remotely bigoted and nowhere near racist

We'll find that clip that David and many of you have referred to

and we will wonder whether that woman should be reassured or whether she should be profoundly upset

to discover that her neighbours will look at her mixed-race children differently from how they would look at their own

It's half past ten. Lottie Morley has your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC

Three minutes after ten is the time. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC

where the tiny village of Piddington is making national and indeed international headlines

after, I mean, a relatively frivolous decision to hold a referendum on withdrawing from the United Kingdom

I mean, if they were to achieve independence, one thing you could say for certain is that Reform UK donors

will probably move there in a heartbeat as long as the tax regimes were friendly enough

About 312 votes cast in a population of 350, with 285 voting to leave

In objection to, in protest at, the mooted relocation of 1,256 men who are refugees

They are asylum seekers. Or rather, they are asylum seekers. Most of them will turn out to be refugees

but at the moment, technically, they are simply asylum seekers. Of course, under legislation and decisions introduced by the last governments

by the Tory governments, they are also, technically, can be accurately described as illegal immigrants

So they are simultaneously putative refugees, actual asylum seekers, and under sort of conservative legislation that Labour haven't changed

they are technically illegal immigrants. And an important part of this conversation involves not knowing

or pretending not to know that we shut down all the safe and legal routes

And other things we pretend not to know is I think Robert Jenrick was responsible

for introducing the idea of moving people from, quotes, hotels, end quotes

which caused great upset, to military bases instead or repurposed military installations instead

So things that you might object to, the culture of the men

of whom you know nothing, of course, and people who were very, very comfortable with watching a woman get beaten up at the Reform UK conference in Birmingham

are very, very disturbed by the idea of men being raised in cultures where women are second-class citizens

The status of these men, the fact that they are asylum seekers, and therefore not everything that we might want to know about them is known

because normally when you walk down the road, everybody is carrying a little clipboard that they can hand you

with full details of the life they've lived thus far, any criminal record that they may possess

and the contents of their innermost heart, the ethnicity of these men, immediately visible

the masculinity of these men, immediately visible, or the enforced idleness. How do we think these concerns should be ranked

Have a listen to this first. This is Rachel. A lot of people have brought this to my attention

Once again, Victoria Derbyshire leading the field of BBC journalists and doing something that you'll never catch me doing

getting out of the studio and getting out there herself to interview, in this case, a resident of Pittington called Rachel

This was on last night's episode of Newsnight. My husband coming from Caribbean diaspora

and also witnessed, you know, the tail end of the BNP and the National Front

And this fifth wave of fascism that we're seeing now was very much indicative of what was happening in the late 80s in this country

I have spoken to residents here and they are genuinely worried. Yeah, and I have so much empathy for that, by the way

And they are not far right. They are not hard right. They are residents of Piddington who don't want 1,200 male asylum seekers

less than a mile away from them. I would like to reframe that and say that probably most people in Pennington would be concerned about 1200 men from anywhere being based just on the edge of our village

There are many reasons for that concern scale being the main one

Your views are in a minority. Yeah. From the small sample of people I've spoken to

Yeah. And I have been seriously othered in order because I've expressed them

and you know one of the things about allyship is that you shouldn't be expecting black and brown

people to defend or stand up to racism it's us that needs to do that and i'm a mother of two

mixed heritage boys so i'm feeling fairly disgruntled by this it is 10 37 you are listening

to james o'brien on lbc where we are i mean adding rachel's experiences to the list um

of questions that we're asking this morning. And I think Rachel's actually on the line

Is that right, Rachel in Piddington? It'd be quite a coincidence in a population of 350

if you were a different Rachel in Piddington. I am the same Rachel

and I've had friends calling me to say you're talking about my interview and that I should phone in

Well, even my ego can resist the urge to wonder why you weren't tuned in already, Rachel

So we'll leave. Sorry. Let me start with actually a sort of question

about how you are finding the attention that you have now attracted

as a consequence of last night's interview. Do you have any regrets? I regret demonstrating so much emotion, I guess

You know, it is emotional. I do feel like that, but I wasn't really prepared to show that to the nation

No, it can hijack you sometimes, can't it, or ambush you. But it speaks to a depth of feeling

Tell me a little bit about the village. Have you been happy there? Has your family been happy there? Yes, we've lived here 20 years, and I've raised my children here

It's been wonderful, very peaceful, quite harmonious. Never experienced any overt racism since we've been here

Your children are mixed race. Your partner is Afro-Caribbean. Yes. So, I mean, this doesn't mean, does it

that suddenly an awful lot of the people that you've known for 20 years are suspected of harbouring ill will towards you and yours, or does it

Well, I would say that none of the people in this village

consider themselves to be racist. No. and unfortunately the campaign's direction has increasingly engaged far-right figures and rhetoric

I said at the outset, and you won't have heard this, that I can sustain that position and I can support that position

up to the point where I read that one of the organisers has appealed to help to Elon Musk and Donald Trump

That's what you're referring to, in part. Yeah, and he has maintained that this campaign is apolitical, as he should, being the chairman of the parish council

Neutrality being key to that role, but his actions say anything but that given that he..

I initially thought it was a joke that he was appealing to Elon Musk and Donald Trump, both my husband and I did

And then this kept on coming, and we realized that it was no joke

And unfortunately, that has laid foundation for far-right figures like Danny Tomo to feel that they are welcome in this village

And, you know, there are villagers, you know, being interviewed today, yesterday, who are saying they would welcome that

And I would say that's not their decision to make. You've become a petri dish then, or a crucible

And it's extraordinary to hear you describe these things moving in real time

Because, of course, I don't do the nicknames. I called him Stephen Yaxley-Lennon and I call this man convicted of attempted kidnap over a drugs debt, Daniel Thomas

But I mean, I'm not suggesting you need to. But I mean, nobody pretends for a moment that they are honestly motivated men

And yet you're watching your neighbours and friends fall for this. Absolutely

I mean, they have been whipped up into some sort of hysterical frenzy based on the fear narrative that is being pushed by, you know, reform councillors who have made their presence very known in this village

And unfortunately, they are using this village to further their own gains

and unfortunately I don't think the villagers are aware that they are being used for this

That seems reasonable. How do you personally distinguish between a legitimate concern

and the sort of illegitimate concern that's being fermented by some of the characters you describe

Or maybe you don't, maybe you can't. Yeah, I mean, we already experienced the presence of the BSP

in this village, you know, they camped outside the village. They walked and drove through waving their flags and fists

and walked around and stabbed fists and camo. So they're a much smaller outlet

I don't know the BSP. I'm presuming it's not the British Society of Periodontology

which is what came up on my Google. They call themselves British Security Project

Oh, I see. And they also hide behind the facade of Christianity

in the same way that Daniel Thomas does. And never mention the fact that two out of five of the men arrested

at last summer's UK riots have previously been reported for domestic abuse

What do you think is going to happen next, Rachel? I don't know. Well, Daniel Thomas has said that he's coming to Pittington in the next few days

So we'll await his visit. I thought he was waiting for the editor of the Daily Mail

to buy his mum a new house. It's so hard to keep up with these characters

I mean, I really don't understand how anybody in this village can condone the presence of a convicted criminal who has made, in the last two weeks, his intentions extremely clear

Well, he's also made a lot of money. Yeah, a huge amount of money. And his donors are from nefarious sources

Well, not all of them, I don't imagine, because there'll be GoFundMes put up there where people are putting pennies in pots that they can barely afford to put themselves

But let me steer things back to you if I can. And has the feeling of your home village, has it changed for you now

Do you think forever? I really hope not forever. I mean, but we are a macro example of what is happening on a wider scale in this country

We are seeing the fifth wave of fascism right now. That's what I meant by a crucible

It is like a distillation of much bigger issues. And I guess final question, people are being changed in real time

That's what I find so interesting and so heartbreaking, but nowhere near as heartbreaking as you must

because you can watch people begin from a position of thinking, well, I'm not sure I want 1,200 men parked up the road of any description or background

or maybe I do, I might be just with a little bit of reassurance that everything was going to be, I'd be okay

And then suddenly they're screaming about fighting age men and sex offending

Yes, fighting age men and sex offending, which 5,000 to 10,000 of the Patriot platform have been convicted for

I don't know about that, but you've obviously done your own research into this

Is it a conversation you've had with your children at all? Yeah, absolutely. And what do you say to them

My husband said that he felt real sadness that his own children would perhaps have to experience

some of what he experienced as a youth. and then of course the line

we don't mean you doesn't really touch the sides does it when you're the person on the receiving end of it

Rachel thanks for calling in and keep in touch you know where we are

if you want to get anything else off your chest or you want to bring us up to date with any developments

in your village or indeed in your life then do feel free to do so thank you, I'll start listening now

there you go every cloud has a silver lining Rachel It's 10.45

James O'Brien on LBC. It is 10.48 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

where the tiny village of Piddington has become the focus of international attention

intentionally after calling a sort of referendum on becoming independent from the UK entirely symbolic not even advisory Is that too niche I here all week try the veal

Holding an entirely symbolic referendum in protest that plans to house over a thousand migrants at a former military base

And I suppose the question of how the village would respond if it were a thousand soldiers at the military base

will be part of the answer to how much of this animus is motivated by ethnicity or by propaganda

or by what have become known in recent years as legitimate concerns

which usually involve saying, I know everything I need to know about that man because of who and what he is

not because of anything he's ever done. He's from a country which means he is more likely to be a sex offender, for example

or to treat women like second-class citizens. And then you have to remind these people that two in five of the characters arrested at the Farage riots in 2024 had previously been reported for domestic abuse

So by definition, people turning up, certainly people getting arrested at the Farage riots, are more likely to have come to the attention of the authorities for domestic abuse than the national average

So should we treat everybody turning up at the Farage riots as if they are domestic abusers

It's the same logic. You might not like it. I don't particularly like it. But it's the same logic

and yet it's of course the logic that allows you to claim to be deeply concerned about the welfare

of women being exposed to violence while practically cheering it along when it happens

on the floor of your own party conference. Alison's in Crawley. Alison what would you like to say

Oh hi James. Well I mean I just wanted to I mean I agree with your first caller I feel really

really sad for your second caller but I've always said that with these things you have to say it's

about skin colour. It's absolutely about skin colour. Nobody, nobody raised concerns about

thousands of Ukrainian people coming over here, and neither am I, actually

But they were women and children. And men. Not many. Well, there were some men that

came over, and, you know, for me, I'm not going to sort of go into that. I am a bit. I'm just going to

cautiously suggest that if 1,200 Ukrainian men of working age were to be parked on the edge of the village

then they might still have had a vote. I agree with you that it wouldn't have got the same results

but they probably still would have won. No or not? We didn't even have the protection of, you know

they're in a hotel or they're being kept somewhere safe. They were being put out into people's domestic homes

with no checks about their background or what have you. And you just think, you know

it's like with the Afghan refugees, You know, the vast majority of them are here under the resettlement scheme

based on the fact that they risked their lives to keep our troops safe on the ground in Afghanistan

And we sort of treat them like this, but it's... They won't be quite the same people

There will be people currently seeking asylum who are from Afghanistan, but the ones who were beneficiaries of the resettlement scheme

I don't think would be housed in Bicester. They are still in hotels, though

And of course the scheme was closed at the beginning of July last year, I think, which means that suddenly the idea that people under threat from the Taliban are no longer under threat from the Taliban is a little bit hard to swallow

But it's, you know, friends of mine who are British, white, you know, sort of British born and bred, you know, who are sort of dark skinned

They're being spat at in the street because of this, you know

And it's a performative referendum is what it is. It is trying to whip up fear and anxiety

And that is the sole purpose and objective of it. And it's deeply, deeply unpleasant fascist behavior

Is any of the fear justified? I mean, I ran through that list of characteristics, if you like

and one would say enforced idleness. The idea of hundreds of men who've got nothing to do

hanging around on street corners and possibly paying unwanted attention to passing women

I think it is a concern that they have nothing to do for lots of reasons, and that's not the only one

But actually, if you look at the figures, people are much more, you know, your young women

or if that's what you're worried about and we all know the sort of, you know

background of some of the reform people but, you know, if that's who we're

concerned to protect, women and girls, they're much more at risk from

the indigenous population. I mean, significantly more at risk. Which, you know, fair enough, we still don't

want to import people who are doing anything. You know, I do get that

But once you create the idea that they are all dodgy, then you've got a

trope in place that is almost impossible to undo. How do we undo it

I mean, what do you do? Because we can all sit here and cite the wonderful examples of integration and rehabilitation

well, not even rehabilitation, unless you've been injured in a war zone, but the refugees have gone on to be fantastic contributors

to our society, and they don't somehow get used to portray every other refugee

whereas you find one that's committed a crime, and it's proof that 1,200 men are all criminals

Yeah, absolutely. And that's just, you know, that's what we've got to stop. We've got to get the more positive images out there. And, you know, we all have a role in that. We all have a role in that

Yeah, that's an important reminder, actually. Thank you, Alison. There's a prison up the road, a few people are telling me

which is, ironically enough, it's called the Bullingdon Prison, which is public-operated Category B

which means it's male prisoners over the age of 18. I don't know what the local attitude is to that, actually

but it might be interesting in answering some of the questions. Oh, hang on, I think Matthew in Bradmore is going to talk about that

Matthew, what would you like to say? Yes, I just... Morning, James

Hello, man. Thank you. Right, so, yeah. So, my first thought was about the prison

which I did say to the person who was on just before. It's not an open prison, though, is it

I don't know, but the thing is, if you're willing to live in an area

that has had a military camp and a prison, it just seems a bit strange that you're suddenly going to object to a load of asylum seekers

And not only that, we've gone to a stage where we've had

asylum seekers, refugees, whatever, put into social housing, then we moved them into hotels

now we've moved them into military camps. I don't think they were ever in social housing, actually

I'm not sure they must have. No, they weren't. They must have housing somewhere. Okay, fine. It's just another of the myths that is used to whip up

the kind of feelings that we're seeing in Piddington. Fine. But, okay, so if we can't put them in a military camp

which are based in remote areas, because I was in a few, where are we going to put them next

Are we going to put them in some Scottish island? Where are we going to put them? because I don't know what the next answer is going to be

Well, the people who were in the last Tory government will suddenly tell you they've discovered the answer to that question

and you just send them all to Rwanda or you park them all in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean

or you negotiate with... or you send them back to the Taliban. I think I heard Nigel Farage saying that a couple of years ago although nobody else seemed to notice at the time When you were in the military what was the general relationship like with the local communities If it was in a fairly isolated place

and you'd all tool into town at the weekend, what was that like? Oh, well, I mean, I was based in Germany

Oh, okay. They often were not happy with a load of British soldiers. If one British soldier had got drunk in a German pub

all British soldiers were banned. There you go. It's the same principle, isn't it? Yeah

because young men will unfortunately get drunk and cause trouble and unfortunately a lot of people

seeking refuge are going to be young men and it will make the news

but I just think for a society that is fine with a prison camp and a military base

they're suddenly objecting to some refugees and then where do we put them next

I mean I said when the hotels was the big lie doing the rounds

And again, it started with Farage, didn't it? Turning up with his Fisher-Price binoculars

No, his Fisher-Price binoculars was when he was going down to Dover, turning up with his camera and filming a sign outside a hotel

that had four stars on it and pretending that that meant the facilities inside would be four stars

Another battle we lost, the truth lost again when you were pointing out, no, they're not going to be enjoying the same level of service and attention

that you would have enjoyed if you were a paying guest in a four-star hotel. That's just a given for a start

You're going to be lumped in to share with somebody that you've never met before. and you're not going to be given a menu

you're going to be given cheap food. There was one story about the box that you get given

when you move in to accommodation and the Daily Express tried to portray it as luxury

because they had plates and even, I believe, I could be wrong about this, even cutlery

7.57 is the time. Donna is in Epping. Donna, what would you like to say

Oh, good morning, James. Still morning, yes. I think for the people of Piddington

it's more about where these people have come from and the way that they've been brought up and their values

than it is about any race. The fact that the government only a few weeks back

produced a leaflet telling them how to behave around women and indeed you said so not so long ago in the conversation

about women being treated as second class citizens and how they are seen in a very sexual way

I think that would be certainly my concern with that amount of men coming into such a small community as well

This isn't a trick question. Were you opposed to the Afghan resettlement scheme when it was in place

No. Why not? I believe that they... Yeah, I mean, I think everyone deserves a right to a free life

Well, why absolutely not? But not these men. No, I don't believe that they're not

Let's not get distracted. Back to the Afghan resettlement scheme. Why did you support that

Because they're from a country that has spent much of the last few decades under the jackboot of the Taliban

which has an absolutely appalling attitude to women. How they're integrated and how they're taught of the values of this country as opposed to..

But again, the Afghan resettlement scheme is subject to all of these criticisms. Yeah

I mean, that's specifically not the reason I phoned in. The reason I phoned in was about..

People from countries like Afghanistan. People from countries like Afghanistan. People of how Piddington were feeling about..

It was about how people from villages like Piddington feel about men from countries like Afghanistan

That's literally what you phoned in to talk about, Donna. Yeah, well, not... I'll tell you something you didn't phone in to talk about

Let's talk about something that you didn't phone in. Well, I just use Afghanistan as the best example of a country

where women are treated as second-class citizens and victims of institutional misogyny

Something that you didn't phone in to talk about is the women that were beaten up on the floor

of the Reform UK party conference last weekend. How did we feel about that

Oh, my God, I didn't know about that. No, I didn't know about that

By members of the party, and then excused and even praised by senior members of Reform

like Lee Anderson, Nigel Farage and Robert Jenner. Well, that's disgusting behaviour

What does it tell us about their culture? What about the Reform party

Yeah. Well, I don't agree with that either. OK. It's 11 o'clock

You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. James O'Brien on LBC. It is four minutes after 11

And, of course, I suppose to tie together two topics, the second of which we move into now

one of the areas in which immigration has been absolutely invaluable is social care

I mean, I don't know how many people would not have received any care at all

over the last 10 or 20 years were it not for all of the human beings choosing to come here in pursuit

of a better life for themselves and therefore helping to deliver a better standard of life

for people who had reached the end of theirs or were approaching the end of theirs whether through

simple old age which can of course demand social care or whether for for medical needs either either

physical Alzheimer's is technically a physical condition isn't it even though the the impacts

of it are mental and psychological. And there is a big decline at the moment in access to

social care services. I don't know how much of that is down to the difficulties in recruiting

when the last government made a particular point of trying to discourage people from

coming here to do jobs like this. But I do know, I'm going to find this one quite tough

just to let you know because I'm in this at the moment and I often say to you that the subjects

that in some ways are the most important that we ever do together are the subjects about which we

know nothing until we suddenly need to know everything and I am with my mum I am learning

an awful lot about some of the issues that we're about to discuss in the next hour and I wish I

had learned them yesterday or last year or 10 years ago but I'm learning them now so just to

give you a quick heads up on the fact that this is very very close to home for me and i don't think

i will be i don't think i can be one and i don't think she would want me to be one of the 1500

people a day who quit their jobs to become unpaid unpaid carers this will be an attempt to balance

vulnerable relatives care needs with a declining access to social care services and let me stress

also that touch wood mum isn't yet in in in the kind of scenario that many of these families have

found themselves in but listen it's it's a possibility I'm going to ask you to talk to me

about difficult and very personal issues it would be entirely remiss of me not to not to do the same

when the situation presented itself so we're in that weird cusp at the minute between hospital

care and home care with a crash course in what might come in between the two. And I want to know

what it like to be a little further down the road New research estimates that one million people have left the workplace to look after aging ill and disabled loved ones in the past

If you haven't heard this story already, you might want to sit down. In the past two years

And this, of course, is yet another symptom of our rapidly changing demographic profile

And I won't resist the urge to tie the two stories together, because if you've got a rapidly changing demographic profile with more and more pressure appearing at the top of the age range, more and more elderly people in need of more and more care, the stupidest thing you can do as a country is demonize immigration

Literally, the stupidest thing you can do as a country that is facing the sort of demographic change that we are facing is demonize immigration

And unfortunately, that's probably yet another battle that the people telling the truth have already lost

Because I can't see immigration in this country getting undemonized anytime soon

So, no, I won't stop pointing that out because somebody has to

6.7 million people, that's one in five employees, facing career and financial sacrifices

as they juggle paid work with care for family or friends. More than a fifth have reduced their job hours in order to do so

Over a third are now working less than eight hours a week. One in ten have turned down promotions or taken on lower paid roles to stay and work

I think the other element of this that might be relevant to other stories

other conversations that we've had together, is the needs. You know, we always talk about the 18 to 24-year-olds or the 16 to 24-year-olds

who are not in education, employment or trading. And then we find out it's a lot more nuanced and complicated

than those simple statistics allow. But some of these adults, who are literally becoming unpaid carers

as they try to balance vulnerable relatives' needs, will technically be neat, won't they

They will technically be human beings who are not in education, employment or training

because they're too busy looking after their mums or their partners or their loved ones

I don't know why I distinguished between partners and loved ones, but it doesn't necessarily mean the same thing

Nine minutes after 11 is the time. I want you to call me if you were surprised that this fell to you

03456060973 I want you to call me if you were surprised that this fell to you

That you presumed the system would step up or provide what was needed

And what I mean by that is that you reached a point where you felt you had no choice but to shoulder this burden yourself

And it's not a burden, obviously. I also want calls about how glad you are that you got the chance to look after your dad

or you got the chance to look after your partner when they were nearing the end of their life

I think it's a wonderful gift. I don't imagine anybody ever looks back upon a lost loved one

and thinks I wish I'd spent a bit less time with them you see what I mean

and you might not know that when you're in the moment you might not realise that when you're spinning so many plates

that you've forgotten what day it is but when you have a little bit of peace

when you have the luxury of looking back you probably will feel a degree

maybe not so much and listen, I'm going to speak and you can tell me that I've got something wrong

all right, like you always do. Maybe not so much with Alzheimer's

which isn't something that is happening in my world at the moment, just for the avoidance of doubt

Maybe not so much with Alzheimer's, because with Alzheimer's, it's glimpses, if you're lucky, isn't it

of the loved one that you know and knew, rather than the great privilege or luxury

of spending more time than you have since you were tiny with your parents

as they near the end of their lives. So, why did you have to do it

And I presume you had to, because this is essentially a choice that is taken

after you've discovered that social care services are not really up to the job of looking after you and yours

That's the thing that interests me most. What happened that made you realise

you were going to have to do it yourself? And listen, every profession, even radio presenters

contains some wrong-ins. But generally speaking, and I know the Lucy Letby story yesterday

made for absolutely grim listening, but generally speaking, generally speaking, people drawn towards these professions are good people

They are nice people. And sometimes they maybe become less than nice

as a consequence of their own experiences and circumstances, they may become a little bit brutalised by experience

and some of them will not have been nice to start with, but anything bad that has happened

is not as a consequence of people who do their best every day

to make things as good as possible for everybody else, okay? And the figure this morning is so stunning

the idea that 1,500 people every day are quitting their jobs to become carers

And remember, because, the because is absolutely crucial here, because of declining access to social care services

So it is things that would previously have been taken up by the system

that the system is not currently taking up. Now, I have said to you on countless occasions

that the subjects that matter the most are the subjects about which you know nothing

until you suddenly need to know everything. And most obviously, that would be the experience of having to put a loved one into a home

Because it can come at you. It comes at you so fast. I never really grasped that

even though you've told me a million times. It can almost happen overnight

As someone who's perfectly capable of looking after themselves suddenly can't. And the options that their loved ones have

about putting them into a space or finding a way in which they will be looked after

because they can no longer completely look after themselves. It's extraordinary. The speed with which it happens is off the charts

And we've had conversations about that in the context of finding a home to put your loved one in

but we haven't had it, actually, in the context of relatively suddenly having to do it yourself

having to take this up yourself. So, just because this is utterly well known to you

doesn't mean it is to anybody else. What happened, 03456060973, what, I mean, what surprised you

What actually, because if you tell me what surprised you, then someone else listening will not be surprised

when it happens to them. Do you see? What surprised you about this relationship between the system and now your family

And then the final question, and perhaps the oddest, but also on this programme, sometimes the most predictable

What's it like? What's it like to go from being, I don't know, an accountant, or a bus driver, or a radio presenter

and then suddenly you go from that to being a carer? I mean, almost overnight, and a lot of these people are going to be full-time, they're giving up their jobs

1,500 people a day giving up their jobs. That's 1,500 jobs today

It could be anything, couldn't it? What's it actually like for you

Because I've got a horrible feeling no one ever talks about you because you're too busy talking about the loved one

What's it actually like to do this, to move in a moment

Because men in particular, and I suspect it's going to be women who do this much, much more than men

but many of us define ourselves by our work many of us think of ourselves as i don't want to sound

like david brent but you know you are a bus driver and a father you are a radio presenter and and and

and a wife and a husband you you do you see what i mean that i don't know whether it's a good thing

or a bad thing it's just a thing thing in that our jobs are an absolutely intrinsic part of who we are

it's why so many people struggle with retirement yeah terrible stories that my dad really didn't

really know what to do with himself in some ways. He never really, really technically retired. Just

couldn't imagine not putting on a tie, a shirt and tie every morning and going out into the world

to do things. What's it like when you have to... And I know that there'll be a cocktail of having

to and wanting to. Of course there will. But what's it like when you do do? What's it like when you get

over that Rubicon and you are now a carer? You're not an accountant anymore. You're not a bus driver

You're not a... Come on, someone else think of some jobs. I can't do this all on my own

You're not a professional hockey player. Where the hell did that come from? You're not a shop assistant

You're not a manager. You're not a driver. You're a carer. You're a full-time carer

You are, you, who never thought, ever, on all the lists of things that you'd compiled

over the course of 50 years, that this would be your job. This would be what you do

This would be who you are. What's that like? Oh, three, four, five, six, oh, six, oh

9-7-3. So, how did it happen? What most surprised you? And what's it like

1,500 a day, that's huge. 1,500 people a day, that's five times more people than voted in Piddington

are going to have to leave their job today to care for a loved one

And what's the media talking about? Well, guilty, I suppose, aren't I? Guilty as charged

James O'Brien on LBC. 14 minutes after 11, you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC

We're examining news that 1,500 people every single day are quitting their jobs to become unpaid carers

Why? That's not a stupid question. I just want you to talk me through what happened that led you to that decision

What most surprised you about your experiences when you entered, perhaps unexpectedly, this entire world

And then finally, what's it like for you? What's it like for you

Actually, you can answer that question if you are the person being cared for, actually

and you're watching your loved one give up work to care for you

What's it like? Best question we can ever ask on a programme

Maggie's in Beaufort in France. Maggie, what would you like to say? Hello, James. Hello

It's really good to speak to you, and please forgive me. I'm quite nervous. Oh, it's only me

It's only me. So I felt I needed to call in because the experience that I had

and I feel that maybe you might be going through shortly with your mum

is one that I had never imagined that I would ever have to travel. How did it happen

My mum has been a nurse all her life. She's cared for so many people

She was very independent. She cared for my dad when he was dying at home. And she'd worked right up until she was 70 riding her bike in two

the hospital and caring to people she's an incredible woman and then after my dad died

she started to show some signs that weren't quite right really she started becoming a little bit

more forgetful and she was tripping up quite a lot and so there was a period of time when

we weren't quite sure what was going on whether it was something to do with her eyes or whether

there was something going on with her brain so of course you went down the normal sort of routes

and we spoke to our local GP who carried out a number of tests

And by this point, my mum had already got lost a few times in Bromford

and she'd sort of missed a step and she'd fallen off the kerb

into the line of her car and she was OK. But it had been, you know, there'd been some traumatic incidents

which made us very concerned about her. So we went along to the GP and eventually, you know

the GP carried out a number of tests of which I couldn't sit in on any of them

But they came back and said, well, she's no more forgetful than any average nearly 80-year-old woman

But things became increasingly worse. We realised that she couldn't be at home on her own

We had to finally turn all the electrics off around the cooker because she kept trying to cook stuff and would forget about it

and would come home to the smell of burning. She'd also got lost quite a few times

She'd gone shopping in Launcford and she'd fallen down the escalator and taken out a number of people

The hospital had phoned us and she had been hospitalized. So we knew it was a lot more traumatic than that

So we decided to try and get some care help and help him because the GPs weren't helping us

She lived on her own? She lived on her own after my dad died

And then my brother, when she started to show signs that she was becoming a little bit more forgetful

my brother then decided to move back home, but he was still working

And I was working part-time. So between us, we were trying to manage

making sure that my mum didn't feel that... Because she was always apologising for doing stupid things

And it was really difficult because, you know, we were trying not to make a big thing about it

but we could see her declining before our eyes. So eventually we had to go down the road

where we tried to get some private care. But that wasn't really reliable either

What would that involve? What would private care... It meant basically going to and finding a home

that would provide carers for a number of hours per week. So she would move into that home or they would come to her home

No, no, no. She was still independent. She was still at home. And did you imagine that the system would provide that

and then discovered that they wouldn't? Yes, and that was the biggest shock

And I think also that the main thing I kept saying to myself

is that no one's written a book. No one gives you a guideline about what to do when this happens

So we were literally trying to work out what is the best way of coping and dealing with

mum without making mum feel inadequate and ashamed. Of course. In the meantime making sure that she was safe

So we were trying you know it was a really difficult time because also we didn have anybody else to talk to None of our friends were going through this or had gone through this So we felt even more isolated by this whole process And the clock is ticking

You know, mum is not going to get better. The direction of traffic is always going. I mean, the very, very best case scenario is that she plateaus

but she's certainly not going to be. We were literally just trying to find a system

that was going to be able to work for all of us. There it is. That's beautifully put

Let me nudge you towards the point, if I may, when you realised you were going to have to do it yourself

well we realised that we couldn't manage it completely on our own

so I started to make inquiries at nursing homes and my mum is an Irish woman

who had looked after her parents who had looked after her sister

who was very proud of the Irish sort of psyche that you always look after your own

so she never expected to have to have somebody else look after her

outside of the family that we as a family, we could no longer cope with her being independent

So what did you do? What did you get? So my mother was very religious

And for me, the most important thing was finding some place that she felt safe and that was familiar to her

And so we managed to find an incredible nursing home that was run by nuns that were Catholic in South London

And that was purely by speaking to a friend of mine whose own mother-in-law had gone to a place in Birmingham

But that was part, you know, this was the fact, but trying to get mum there, trying to get mum to agree to that

was the next massive hurdle. Oh, boy. So, honestly, James, I can't tell you

I wish I could transport you to a better place. Well, I'm not, I'm not, I mean, I don't..

No, but it's just to prepare you, really. Well, of course, and it may not come to that

and we're not talking about Alzheimer's or dementia in my case. but we may be talking about some of the issues that you've had to face

It's just, as you say, the fact there's no book and there's no guide out there

that you find so remarkable. And well done, I suppose, is the other thing to say

because it's funny, sometimes the best thing you can do for someone that you love isn't necessarily the thing that they think they want you to do

and that's really tough, I imagine, as well. Thank you, Maggie. 11.25 is the time

You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. giving up work to care for a loved one

when you probably never, ever thought that you would be giving up work for any reason other

than retirement or getting your sandwiches wrapped in a roadmap. That is a crucial constituent of this conversation as well

Richard's in Loudoun. Richard, what made you pick up the phone? Good morning, James, first-time caller

I can't believe I'm actually speaking to you when I don't believe in any of the politics you believe in

but there you go. It happens. Oh, OK. But I do believe in this quite dearly to me

My uncle, who was more or less my mum and dad when my parents died when I was a kid

looked after me from the age of eight till 18. Gosh. He's now 87

Last year, he got terminal cancer and renal failure and was told he was only going to live a couple of weeks

We got him better. We got him out of hospital. We looked after him for a year at home

Who's we? You and your wife? You and your partner? Oh, no, me and his brother, who's 18

Oh, OK. Looked after him at his home. He started falling over a lot

and we felt it was time to put him in a care home. We found the best care home I could find at £2,000 a week

He's meant to get NHS continuing health care, but they haven't funded anything

And I'm now thinking of giving up work because it's costing more to have him in the care home

than it is for me to look after him and give up my £80,000 job a year

Listen, I need to phrase this quite carefully, but I hadn't actually thought of that

So when we're looking at 1,500 people a day quitting their jobs to become unpaid carers

quite a lot of them might be doing so because the cost of care is so prohibitive

They're actually doing it for financial reasons, as much as anything. And I know you love the bones of him

and you owe him everything, but your motivation would be as much financial as anything else

Absolutely. The financial thing isn't as important to me because he's got savings

But he always said to me and my sister, I want that money to go to you when I die

Sure. And he would be devastated if he knew I was spending that money on his care

So he doesn't know. But he'd be devastated if he knew you'd given up your job to look after him as well, wouldn't he

I wouldn't tell him. I would just go ahead and do it. Oh, good man

Gosh. How likely is that to happen, do you think? How close are we to that moment

Probably a couple of weeks' time. I'm going to hand my notice in. I think the other thing is that I've had the MP involved

He's been absolutely excellent. Your boss? No, the Minister for Parliament. Oh, OK. Oh, that's good

He's been fighting to get NHS continuing care. So if that was to come through in the next couple of weeks

then I would leave him in the care home. But I think they're waiting for him to die, to be honest

What is the... I mean, the ration... What is wrong with the care that he's getting now

if I can ask you that, without upsetting you? No. Go on

they're doing an amazing job in the care home um there's loads of activities and the food's great

and they're lovely people but there's lots of things that they don't they look after 28 other

patients so for example if i get a physio in for the day yeah um i then have to go in there every

night to do his physio with him because they can't do that because they haven't got um the capability

the other thing is he's on dialysis and he's on a machine all night so i have to make sure that's

working, so they might call me up four in the morning, five in the morning when the machine's

going off. They call you up from the home? Yeah, because they're not trained. It's given

by the hospital. They're plugged in by the hospital, and then he's left on his own

at night, and if there's any problems, they call me. Wow, today's an education, isn't it

And so, if you gave up your work, you would be spending most of your time

at the facility where he is currently? No, I would take him out, and I

look after him at home. And you'd bring the dialysis machine with you? I would, yeah

It's going to be a big, big old change, isn't it? Yeah, for £2,000

a week, I might as well do it myself and I'd probably do a better job

I've done it for a year, part-time, so I've been working during the day, doing

his caring at night, done that for a year, and if I can do it half the time

then why not do it the full-time, if no one else is going to help? yeah and and you thank you for being at great pains to stress that the people who are looking

after your uncle are doing their best but there is there is a finite amount that they can do

and um it is not as much as the people in their care need that's a you know that's a simple

arithmetic could i could i ask a question james that maybe we could get out to the other callers

okay yeah of course is is when people are terminally ill and the end of life

Have they been successful in getting NHS continuing healthcare, which is meant to be free at point of service for people that are terminally ill

And what would that involve? Would that involve people coming to the house to do what you're now planning to do yourself

No they come to social workers being So what is it you Well just because I ignorant not because I splitting hairs What is it that you seek that you have been denied

Funding for the care home. Oh, OK. So to pay for him to be where he is now

as opposed to having to take it out of savings, or, of course, put a charge on the house

which is what happens to most people. Richard, thank you, and good luck

31 minutes after 11 is the time. Lottie Morley has your headlines

James O'Brien on LBC It's 11.34 you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC

you make me smile even on a difficult conversation like this one

I was struggling to think of random jobs to list at the beginning of this hour

I came up with professional hockey player for some reason, I always reach for accountant

the problem is if I'm trying to dream up a job at random

I'm often talking about a demographic or a category of people and so

you know, you don't want to suggest that everybody in that category of people

is likely to be a bus driver or an accountant. Do you see what I mean? I'm too conscious probably of generalising

But it meant I tied myself in a little knot and I didn't come up with

good enough examples. Roddy and James did. And I love these messages because they speak to

a commitment to the programme that I believe everybody should aspire to

You know, if we gave out loyalty badges is Roddy and James today would get them

because their answers to the question are, come on, help me out, give me some other jobs

Roddy said, dolphin trainer. Actually sea lions, but still, that's pretty good

And James said, fast catapult sailor, which I think is more a hobby than a job, James

but I get it and I love it. It's 11.35, talking about the 1,500 people a day

quitting their jobs to become unpaid carers and wondering how it happens and what it's like

Sarah is in Windsor. Sarah, what would you like to say? Hi, James. Hello, Sarah

I'm very nervous. So new, Meg. I know, you say that all the time

It works! Does it? So, where am I at? My husband had a bleed on the brain eight years ago

and he was only 55. I gave up work at night. He was out on a mountain bike

had a helmet on for anyone's judges, and he had a weakened blood vessel

so he took a tumble over some trees which were put deliberately in his path

It came to light and so he took a tumble and phoned me

I got him to hospital and seven months later he came home from a different hospital

so he spent a good part of the year and various seasons that we went through

and I became a carer from that moment. So you gave up work

Before I gave up work. We both worked full-time for a very well-known prestigious supermarket slash department store

Well, that narrows it down. It's John Lewis. Yeah, there you go. We were both partners in there

Okay. So, they were wonderful. Good. It meant I could take initially some sick leave, obviously, because it was traumatic

and I was with my husband, Simon, every day. And I had no idea what life as a carer was going to be like

I remember saying to a local newspaper or somebody that, you know, I'm going to watch him walk again

I'm going to be part of that journey. It's very hard. Every day is the same

Every day I start my day getting him up. He can just about walk around inside the house with a leg support, an arm support

Every part of his left side of his body is affected. He has no return of function to his left arm, even his eyesight

so he's registered as partially sighted because the brain hasn't rewired the eyesight

There's nothing wrong with his vision, if you see what I mean, but it's the brain rewiring

So I have that lovely £86 and a few pennies a week as a carer

The surprising things, I forget your list of questions. Don't worry about that

I mean, £86 just from having two managerial incomes, that's a huge change

From two decent incomes, you should imagine retail managers, we dropped, you know, two-thirds of our income

We have the ill health pensions from that company, that partnership, as well as previous companies' ill health pensions

But with that, we get no support. We have over this 23,250, I think it is-ish, in the bank

so we don't get any support. So some of it would be means-tested, would it

Some of the things that you might test. PIP, which is wonderful. We now have PIP for the next 10 years

So I appealed recently because I've done the PIP form about four times now every couple of years

Hang on a minute. I keep reading in the Daily Mail that it's been given out like confetti

and it's really easy to apply for. And all you've got to do is stick your hand up

and they'll put money in your bank account. James, it's such a stressful form to do

And I do it very well every two years. I submit all the forms

This year we got it back saying, great, there you go. You can carry on. but I'll come and knock in in two years' time

So I asked for reconsideration and they did reconsider and came back with, you can have it for the maximum of 10 years now

But when my pension kicks in, my own state pension, the odd thing is I don't get paid the £86 and a small penny from that day

It replaces it. It subsumes it. You can't have the two. No, and yet again, I keep reading about how obscenely generous

the entire system is. Yeah. What would have happened to Simon if you weren't able to do what you do

I don't know. I do not know. I don't even remember thinking

I'll stop work. It was just a natural progression, really, I think, from carers' leave

into I'm not going to pay somebody else to come and look after Simon and then go home from my day job

and do the rest of the caring role. So I don't know

And as a marriage, you know, we're not talking of a parent-child here

No, I know. As a married couple, he's changed. Nobody wouldn't really notice

But cognitively, he's very much slower. Emotionally, a lot slower. There's a huge lack of intimacy now

But we are very tactile. But there's so much that is different about him

I still love him. And on we go. But we've had so much help from talking therapies

you know shout out to them through couples counseling individual counseling but we are

where we are how have you changed i think i'm way way more patient he might beg to differ

but you just have i've just had to to walk away sometimes physically mentally just switch off

from things that you can't grasp you can't um you just get what what the nuance is in something

so patience yeah but I do miss work I miss the structure of work and as soon as I

stopped work I oddly wanted to get some give something back so I became a Samaritan

and I did that I did that until my dad was poorly and sadly passed away and then I wasn't

in the right mindset to be able to help others and I needed to you know self-care

so I wanted that structure I wanted to learn again I wanted something to switch off from caring and just indulge not indulge immerse myself into other people problems really and be able to give something to them through my own journey

What an amazing thing. And what a beautiful articulation of it as well

because you actually, it's not a self-sacrifice that you're describing. You're acknowledging that you actually get something out of it

In some ways, I choose my words very carefully here, Sarah, But in some ways, it's a relief from your own struggles

to help other people with theirs. Yes, and it's all relative, isn't it

Yes, it is. Everyone's problems are relative to them. And as much as this has been a horrendous thing to go through

other people have horrendous things that they go through and to listen to them and try and help them

And the Samaritan's training is just fabulous. You're amazing. You do know that, don't you

I'm told, but it's really hard. Well, I'm telling you to. They're right. listen to them, you are absolutely amazing

not only for what you're doing at home but also to somehow decide to

essay that into something even more altruistic and even more selfless, albeit that

it's rewarding work for you it's an amazing path that you've gone down, absolutely inspirational

to me well, thank you I don't know where things are with your mum

I haven't heard all of your we're in the foothills potentially of a steep mountain but at the moment we don't know how steep it is but i am learning

very very quickly how little you know about things until you need to know a lot more just to just to

steer it back to you yeah there's another story in the news today about people who ring in sick

and people who don't and and the reason why some of us feel guilty when we call in sick

is because some of us our work is more closely tied to our identity um it's what an occupational

psychologists would call centrality your work is central to who you are and so being absent and

then ultimately giving it up can feel like losing a part of yourself did that does that describe you

at all or were you too absolutely immersed in in caring for your husband that you didn't have time

really to notice that you weren't in the sense of your work defining who you are you weren't that

person anymore. I really missed that prestigious, that level that I had in my job, the person that Sarah

will know. Go and ask Sarah. You know, I was in the HR side of my branch

And to not have that, that sounds very egotistical, but to not have that fondable knowledge, you

know, and suddenly I'm a fondable knowledge about caring. And it's a different thing

I didn't choose this. You know, I didn't go looking for this and I wouldn't recommend it

But it just, it is how we are now. But yes, I do miss that role

I bet you do. And the Samaritans filled that for me for a short time

until Dad passed away, you know, and perhaps now I'm looking for something else

But I'm not in any rush because I'm aware that it's so draining

And you've got to look after yourself as well. I'm going to do something a bit soppy, if that's all right with you

No, go on, go on. We don't hear much of your soppiness, so yeah, fill your boots. I'm going to share with you two lines from my favourite sonnet

my favourite Shakespeare sonnet, which is about a bloke kind of wasting a lot of time

worrying about all the things he hasn't got, like the status and the wealth and the friends and the scope

and all of those things. And then in the final two lines of the sonnet

he recognises what the most valuable thing of all is. And I think that your husband would recognise this

because he wrote, For thy sweet love remembered such wealth brings that then I scorn to change my state with kings

Because what you've given to Simon is worth a billion times more

than anything material or measurable. Thank you. No, thank you for sharing your story

No, thank you, James. I'm going to go and be reunited with my sister now who's just come over from Australia

Wow, what a day. What a day. I know, what a day. You and my sister, all in one hit

Win-win. Take care. Thank you, Sarah. It's 11.45. James O'Brien on LBC

It is 11.48. Henry Riley is in the studio, which doesn't necessarily mean that there are things to share

regarding the world of Reform UK, but it might do. It might do

There's a few sort of different things to get in today, James

Firstly, let's start in Wales. Two stories from there. Firstly, Reform UK's Dan Thomas, who was the leader there, has quit as the party's Welsh leader after he was arrested on Sunday on suspicion of assault and controlling or coercive behaviour

We heard from Gwent Police, who confirmed that a 45-year-old man from Arbogod in Caerphilly had been bailed pending further inquiries

Reform said in a statement that he was standing down from his position for personal reasons, with a meeting to be held today to start the process of finding a replacement

He was first elected to the Senate in May. His party went from having two politicians then to 34

And he said, with deep regret, I'm now standing down from this position due to personal reasons

Over the weekend, I was reported to the police and was released without charge

I will continue to serve my constituents and will fully back whoever the group selects as its next leader

just to point out as well, Gwent Police say he's been bailed further pending inquiries

Local media, of course, have been talking about this, Dan Thomas. He was arrested on Sunday, not just reported to the police

I'm not correcting you, I'm just looking at his statement. Quite, and that's why I'm reiterating what Gwent Police say as well

that he's been bailed pending further inquiries. Of course, I mean, we've discussed him before, James

he defected from the Conservatives to reform, He was previously the leader of Barnet Council in central London, or north London, I should say

And yeah, he's obviously moved to Wales, and he was the leader there. Some question, if I recall, it feels a little trivial now, of whether he actually had moved to Wales or not

But that was a different story on a different day, albeit about the same Dan Thomas

Shall we stay in Wales? Let's stay in Wales. A member of the Senedd, who was one of those elected by reformers

a sort of successful result earlier on this year, has quit reform and has joined Plaid Cymru

saying that her former party has no interest in Wales. This is Sarah Cooper-Lessad

who has been approved and has been accepted by Plaid Cymru, and that means they now have 44 members

reform the largest opposition. They've gone down to 33. Reform insists that they were planning to expel her

because she'd voiced support for Welsh independence in recent days, and they questioned whether she ever fully understood

the core values of the party she was standing for. They also said it's the third party she's been in

in the space of a matter of years. How many parties has Nigel Farage been in over the last few years

Conservatives, UKIP, Brexit. Oh, was he not? Maybe a supporter. Brexit, UKIP, Brexit, reform

And how many parties are they criticising this woman for being in over the last few years? For being in three. Oh

She, of course, quits. I can't keep up with this, it's extraordinary

So they're criticising her for being in the same number of parties as their own party leader over the last several years

Certainly that's what came out of the reform system. James, Cooper Assad's defection of course came on the day as we referenced just a moment ago that Dan Thomas, the leader, quit and she was asked whether that had any bearing on her decision

Well whatever happens with the police investigation is not for me to comment but whatever happens to that will be damaging in itself

The second thing is the governance is not there, whatever you think of that, that is a problem

It's just going to go from chaos to chaos to chaos. And then you've got the funding saga with the Nigel Farage donations

They're probably going to have to give a lot of that. It's not for me to speculate, as I said

But all of those things do compound in people's heads. That was Sarah Cooper-Lassad

She said she'd been on a political journey, perpetual chaos at reform

She didn't think it would last the full term. And she said reformers, no interest in the work I came here to do

they're far more interested in division, opposition and headlines than finding solutions

To be fair, if she didn't realise that they were far more interested

in division, opposition and headlines than in finding solutions, then the criticism of her from the reformed spokesperson

that she didn't really understand the core values of the party that she was standing for, I mean, two things can be true at the same time

I suppose so, actually. In terms of the thing that she said at the end there

that the reformer more interested in division, opposition and headlines from finding solutions, I mean, it was..

also implied as well that she feels that the party in Wales reform

are not focusing on the right issues, something that you actually spoke with Reena Pioff

the leader of Plaid Cymru, first minister of OUTS, on this programme last week. They see obsession with flags, you know

and one of the first things that their finance spokesperson said in the Senate was, let's tear down the Ukraine flag

and it's all about let's only have such and such flag here and there. That's not what we're trying to do, is it

And on top of that, with that particular issue about the Pakistani flag being flown on Independence Day

We have very proud Pakistani communities in Wales and the rest of the UK. Why wouldn't we want to celebrate our diversity in that kind of way

And it's using disinformation. That's the world where we're in. And that was Reena Bjorth speaking with you last week

Didn't get a word in age race, didn't I? I know. That's a fuss. I edited you out

No, I didn't. Check the tape, Keith, will you? Carry on. There's one other..

So it's in Newcastle. Yes. No, Durham. Durham. Further afield. Actually, no, not further afield

Anyway, a different part of the country. Reform UK. Different country, mate. Be careful

Different country, yes. Carry on. Different part of the United Kingdom. Thank you

Can we edit that out? Reform UK is in serious danger of losing control of a flagship council

And this is all a result of a Sky News investigation that I'll come on to

But three councillors quit last night in succession, just a week after this Sky News investigation

So the three were Lindsay Fox, Paul Sexton, and Nicole Brown, who all resigned last night, leaving reform with 51 seats

Bear in mind they had 65. They won 65 when they won in May 2025, but they're now down to 51

And they're just two further losses away from actually surrendering their majority

Why do they keep... Well, just tell us about why this lot have left. Yeah, we'll come on to it in a second why

because there have been various rails about, I mean, allegations of bullying and whatnot. So Lindsay Fox is the only person who's spoken on the record so far

She quit after accusing the party of failing to handle an exceptionally serious safeguarding concern

and said, I'm left with no confidence that safeguarding is being treated as a priority within reform

She spoke, Lindsay Fox, with Sky News. I've been thinking about resigning for quite a long time

And the reason is because I reported a very serious safeguarding issue

And I reported that back in the 14th of July was when I reported it

and we're now two months on I've heard nothing and then following the Sky investigation last week

that aired on Sunday night I got a message from the leader basically offering me roles

within the council if I got more visible again and what really really kind of pushed it over

in the end because I've been reviewing this I read that message repeatedly and thought you know

So he's not addressing the report that I made to him. So we don't know what that safeguarding concern is about

but this councillor, Lindsay Fox, who's now an independent, thought it serious enough to obviously raise it

and feels that it hasn't been satisfied. In terms of Councillor Sexton and Councillor Brown

who resigned again last night, they've just resigned with immediate effect. We don't know the exact details

But to go back to the Sky News investigation, they were looking at what they said were big divisions within the council

multiple reform councillors describing a culture of fear, bitter infighting. There was a row a while ago. You might

remember Darren Grimes, James, who's the deputy leader of the council there. He shared

a photograph of a big coach. We discussed this on the programme. In a suburban

street with ten young men who'd got off the coach and the headline was that

Durham is not a dumping ground fixing the housing betrayal. The issue was the photograph was AI

and hadn't obviously wasn't a legitimate photograph. Bit crafting. Richard Tice, who is the deputy leader of Reform UK

Are you sure? They change things around a lot. No. They sort of resign and then unresign

He's a big donor as well, I think. He claimed the investigation by Sky News was garbage, a blatant hit piece

Oh, so like climate science then. And he said that Cathy Newman was an anti-reform activist

But these people have resigned? These people have, yeah, the people have resigned. So have they fallen for the garbage, or is Richard Tice talking..

Well, he said that the party is enjoying, actually, huge successes in Durham

which the media isn't covering. Well, let's cover it. How many seats did they win in 2025

They won 65. How many have they got now? They've got 51. Huge. Huge success

Massive. You can't even do the maths on that, because... Let me tell you why

Time me. They've actually lost 16 councillors. You might go, how did they get 51

Let me explain. Thank you. It's because a few have defected in that time

So they've had a few ex-conservatives join and whatnot Oh, I see

So it's all very confusing But I won't go through all 16, Jack

Let me just remind you of a couple of examples Very quickly So you've got Jack McLennan

Who was accused of public drunkenness Abusive behaviour towards hospitality staff At an Armed Forces Day event

He was expelled by Darren Grimes He is now with the SDP

And then you've got, again, I won't go through all of them Paul Bean Mr Bean allegedly claimed the vast majority of asylum seekers

were abusing the system despite the fact he was actually working for the Home Office at the time

processing asylum and immigration claims he's now with Advance UK another one, I don't think, have we heard of them before

we have heard of them, they're led by Ben Habib oh, ok, have they not merged with anyone

no, they are still an outfit I think he is winding it down splitters

I won't take too long on it James but you've got obviously Reform UK

you've got Restore Britain, you've got Reclaim, which is the party that's led by Lawrence Fox

A bloke from Lewis who wasn't Lewis. You've got Advance UK, and again, we have on Kent Council

there's the Independent Reforming Group. There's now actually another party on Kent Council

I won't go into too much detail, but Amelia Randall, who's a councillor there, was reformed, then went to UKIP

has now launched another right-wing party called the Balanced Britain Party, so that another one to bear in mind Thank you I don know what we do without you Just going back to the woman who resigned and the reform spokesman who criticised her for having been in three parties in recent years Just remind me how many parties 30P Lee Anderson

has been in in recent years. So it's Labour, Conservatives and Reform

Was he never in UKIP? Did he go straight to Reform? Yeah, he went straight to Reform

Three then. So three. Three. Yeah. It's the magic number. Tiago's been in touch

Oh, yeah. Amid all these Reform resignations, have we at least unearthed any more erotic fiction

It's been far too long since Henry treated us to one of his literary reviews

I have had a look, and there's nothing so far. But I'm honestly on the..

I always say this, James, whenever I'm on your programme, if anyone does hear of erotic fiction

that has been written by a Reform UK politician, I'm all ears. No, I'm not going to provide any context at all for that

James O'Brien on LBC. Four minutes after 12. So we had a conversation yesterday, but it was quite severely curtailed, wasn't it

We had an awful lot going on in the final hour of the programme yesterday. In fact, we didn't even speak to each other in the final half an hour

because we were taking the report and the inquiry into the Lucy Letby case live from Liverpool Town Hall

which means I probably took even fewer calls in the course of that hour than I usually do

And I wanted to return to it, but I found myself thinking, will you want me to return to something so soon that we did yesterday

And then lo and behold, the government of Singapore came galloping to my rescue

What's he on about now, I hear you say. The affluent city-state, which is how I think you're supposed to describe Singapore in journalese

is paying, you heard me correctly, paying its citizens to pick up a book for at least 15 minutes a day

you can probably work out why um it's a kind of gamification strategy that is a word isn't that

mad that gamification is a proper word but footballification which i invented isn't in

the dictionary that's just not fair but anyway that's a conversation for a different day so at

the moment you listen you're not going to make a million doing this you accrue points that can be

redeemed for a few cents. You have to log 50 daily reading sessions on a government website

to earn a dollar. That's one Singaporean dollars. You get 20 virtual coins for 15 minutes or more

and if you can get up a thousand coins, then you get a dollar payment. I don't know how it works

all right? I'm just reading words and numbers. But the central thrust of this story

I think is crucial to our conversations together. The affluent city-state hopes that the plan will improve critical thinking and imagination

And here's a beautiful quote, in a world of extraordinary abundance and stimulation

Now, abundance and stimulation sound like good things, but extraordinary, which is, as you may have gathered, one of my favourite words

extraordinary can go both ways. You can have something that's extraordinarily good or extraordinarily bad

And the specified target here is what they call the rise of doom scrolling

So they're trying to break a spell. I think that's the best way of putting it

And this, to me, is one of the greatest challenges that humanity currently faces

And here's a weird thing. In fact, if you're in the mood, here's two weird things

Here are two weird things. the first is that I used to look upon topics as regarding reading topics related to reading

as kind of tap-ins you know as nice gentle conversations that aren't like you know

controversial or that important but we'll just enjoy ourselves together very on brand if that's

a phrase you'd allow me to use and and you know nice and cozy conversations I'm not sure they are

anymore. I think reading might be moving into don't look up territory. I really do. I think

when you have an entire government addressing the dangers of doom scrolling, or rather the dangers

of turning your back on reading, becoming government policy, you've got an indication

of just how serious this subject is. And that's the second weird thing that I can feel going on

at the moment. I often find myself wondering about whether we'll ever find a subject together

you and me, that we will talk about every day. So, I mean, we've had moments where

Brexit, for example, was such an all-encompassing issue. Trump, I suppose, for a while, we talked

about a lot. Covid was probably the most event-driven example of a conversation that felt

as if it was the only one that we could reasonably have together. I wish I could find a way of bringing the environment

into the conversation every day, bringing climate change into our conversations every day

I do my best, but it's not good enough. But I... I somehow feel this one has got..

It knits it all together. You know, we talk about the mental health of young people

but we don't talk about why they should be reading. We talk about the atomization of society, but we don't talk about why we should all be reading

We talk about a susceptibility to propaganda and lies, but we don't talk about why we should be reading

We talk about a decline in critical thinking or a decline in the ability to cogitate properly

but we don't talk about why we should. I think, and there's a Times columnist called James Marriott who's written a book I have not read

that essentially warns about a decline in democracy itself if we continue on this trajectory of not reading enough

And out of all the things that I have felt over the years

we could sort of crusade about, almost become like a campaigning platform

This is one of the biggest... It's not going to work. There's no PMQs today, by the way

They're off for weeks now. I can't remember why. Party conference season is almost upon us

and I think they're just having another holiday in the meantime. I don't think I'm going to..

I'm not going to be able to turn it into a daily thing, obviously, or even weekly

But you know how we do AI now, even if there's not a story in the news? It's linked to that as well, you see

Why do you need to read? Why do you need all the things that reading gives you if you've got AI to do it all for you

The ability to process information and crunch it, chew it, enjoy it, savour it

regurgitate it in a satisfying fashion. So we turn our attention to AI quite regularly

and we do it in a kind of, um, uh-oh, fashion. It starts off funny

We should have kept a time scale, shouldn't we? We should have kept a calendar. So the very first time you sent me

a chat GPT version of a James O'Brien monologue, it was rubbish

it was right and this is just in real time what was that about two years ago maybe

and then slowly and don send me any today because we not doing that today slowly they just got better and better and better to the point where I read one about a month ago that you sent to me

and I thought, well, it's not me, but I'd say that line there, that sentence there

that's mint. That's absolutely me. And I hadn't thought that up. The machine had listened to all of my monologues

and when given a subject upon which to construct one of my monologues

it had come up with several lines that I could quite conceivably have come up with myself

And that is where we should be with this story as well

because they're all linked, you know, that we are stopping reading. It feels to me like I watched Interstellar the other day

and 70mm at the Prince Charles Cinema in London, such a treat

That cinema often puts on special screenings because 70mm is just an experience like no other

I'd never seen Interstellar before. Christopher Nolan film, the guy that did The Odyssey. You may have heard of him

Got a bit of coverage, that film. I watched Interstellar the other day and it's about the earth becoming uninhabitable

That's not a spoiler. And it becomes uninhabitable because the crops just fail

You know, first of all, the potatoes go and then the wheat goes and then the corn

There's only corn left and we're living on corn. The humanity is living and eventually there's not going to be anything left

The air is unbreathable. The crops are not growing. You can see it in a physical sense

You can feel that in a physical sense. But what about in a mental sense

What about if we are atrophying as a species? We are losing the ability to think

you don't need me to make a list of the people who can't wait for that to happen

Because that's fascism, isn't it, in a way? You can do it without the technology that we've got now

You can persuade populations of things that are not true and to hate their neighbor and to do all of those things

that some people want to do. But the idea that our brains, our ability to live our lives to their fullest extent

is being taken away from us by technology that was supposed to make our lives easier

I find this utterly irresistible as a topic. And I'm warning you now, I'm going to come back to it again and again and again

until I get it right. Because I didn't get it right yesterday. And I'm not going to get it right today

And I'm going to keep coming back to it. And you're going to keep helping me. And together we're going to get it right until we can distill to its very essence

the question of why this is so important. who we would be if we did not read, because we would not be we

We'd be something less, something different and something less. And I know that's rude

and I know it might be condescending if you don't read for me to say to you that you are less of a

person than you would be if you did, but I'm afraid it's true. I'm afraid it's true. The idea

that reading brings us something that not only offers up a counterpoint

to doom-scrolling, as the Singaporean government is now paying its citizens to prove

but that it goes further than that, that it reaches in... Well, look, reading for pleasure

cuts dementia risk by a third. So, last hour. There you go

There it is. Who would you be if you had read more? I don't want to go all the way down that road

but it is research. Good for your health. And as we were talking about yesterday

it doesn't matter what you read. It doesn't matter what you read. It is all good for you

It improves empathy. It improves mental health. It improves academic performance. It staves off, potentially, for about 33%

Dementia itself, this is from the University of Cambridge, it reduces stress

Goodness me, we could all do with having our stress reduced sometimes, couldn't we? and it is going out of fashion

There will be people listening to this programme now and if you're one of them, I think I would quite like you to call me

who can't read anymore. This is why I was thinking of the crops withering

Just can't grow. You can't read anymore. You used to read a lot

You pick up a book now, you're a page and a half into it. Same thing might happen when you're watching a film, to be honest with you

but I'm thinking about books now. And you used to be able to read, what, 30 pages before bedtime

You used to be able to, if you had a bit of a moment on Public Charles Boy, you'd pull a book out, and you just can't do it anymore

You're just thinking, I'm just going to check this, or I'm just going to check that. I'm just going to do this, I'm just going to do that

You just can't do it anymore. And then, of course, there's the people who have lost

they've been left behind already. You used to read, you don't even try anymore. Too busy doom scrolling

And it may not even be doom scrolling. You may be watching wholesome content featuring ping pong

or I went through a phase where my algorithm was full of soldiers

returning from duty to surprise their families. I once wasted an hour and ten minutes of my life watching that

and it's beautiful, wholesome and uplifting but I'd have been better off reading a book

It's like the sort of junk food of emotional stimulation whereas a book is a nourishing meal

And my other obsession at the moment, as you know, is with who we would be if we had had slightly different formative experiences

You know, on a personal level, who would I be if I hadn't been adopted by amazing mum and dad

Who would I be? I'd still be me, but I wouldn't be me. Who would you be if you didn't read

So, I want to get it. I want to get to the very heart of it

The question of what it gives us. 03456060973 I don't know where the conversation will go

but I would love you to ring me if you can't read anymore 03456060973

if I have literally just described you for whatever reason it is

we can explore that together but you can't quite believe how profoundly your relationship with reading

has changed okay But what I really want to know is what it gives us

Because these lists, they don't sound random and they don't sound arbitrary

but they don't land in the way that a cornfield withering would land

You can't see stress. You can't see empathy. Not technically, mental health, all of these things

What does it do that nothing else can do? 0345 6060973. Who would you be if you hadn't read

Because it may be that this is an insuperable challenge. There you go

If I read less, I probably wouldn't have known the word insuperable. It may be that this is an insuperable challenge

It may be impossible for us to put into words what words have given us

We can speculate a bit. You know the research that shows your ability to articulate your emotions is defined during adolescence If you have fewer words in your arsenal in your vocabulary you have less ability to articulate your emotions

which makes you more prone to anger and violence. Imagine not being able to explain how you feel

Take that feeling of having a word on the tip of your tongue and you can't quite find it, times it by a million

and you know what it's like to be perpetually angry and violent and unable not just to talk about your feelings

because you feel that that's a bit inappropriate or a bit effete

but you can't talk about your feelings because you can't talk about your feelings

You haven't got the words. A world of doors that you don't even know exist

let alone how to get through them. What does it do? What does it do

What are we losing? There you go. Let's try it that way round today

What are we losing? by reading less or by not reading at all

0345 6060 973 is the number you need. I'd love to talk to you if you have stopped reading

if you're catching yourself just being unable to do it. And I'd love to talk to you if you can help

So if you've come out the other side of that. But what are we losing

Either on an individual level, or perhaps even more interestingly, on a societal level

What are we losing by not reading? 0345 6060 973

James O'Brien on LBC. Minutes after 12, I'm not there myself. I'm not there. I don't really doom scroll

I've somehow managed to avoid that fate, but I do not read like I used to read

and I know I'm losing something as a consequence. And sometimes when I try to read and I start to read

I just, I do get distracted. Now, I might be playing cross-play on the New York Times games app

but it's still distracting me. It's not doom scrolling, it's just playing cross-play

seeing if the random strangers that I'm playing a sort of version of Scrabble with have played

And if they've played, I'll put my book down and I'll pick my phone up. That's bad, right

And I'm consoling myself with the thought, well, it's a word game. What are you beating yourself up for

But I'm breaking my spell. I'm breaking my spell. what are we losing

what are we what are we risking what are we jeopardising by not reading

Vivian's in Bushy Vivian what would you like to say I do exactly

hello Jane I do exactly the same as you I go on a word game

and I used to read a book a week more than that

then all of a sudden I'm looking on my phone for hours and I think I've lost imagination

I've lost I've lost the escapism of a book, but I have been away and started reading again

and now I'm not picking up my phone so much to doom scroll and watch silly cartoons of cats

and, as you say, soldiers coming home to meet their wives. And it was so lovely to see it all, but it's not..

They're all the same. We're watching the same thing over and over and over again, aren't we

It is like a sort of low-level dystopia. And it's not doing anything for me

No, it's not doing anything at all. So what did you do? Did you go on holiday and read a lot

So I went on holiday, and obviously because you're on a beach, you're not going to use your phone because it costs a fortune

So I took a book. I ended up reading three books, and I loved it

I escaped into it. And a book I never thought I'd read, actually

Someone had recommended it to me. It was all about dragons and things like that. But, oh, no, that's not me

But I loved it. Loved it. And it's got me back again

And I've put the book by the side of my bed now, and I do try to pick that up because it also teaches you so much

like the language and words and just being able to communicate with people

You subconsciously use words that you may have read and whereas what are you going to do if you're doing scrolling

or looking at silly things on your phone? Nothing at all. And it calms you down as well

I mean, it takes you out of the... I mean, the more stressful your life is, the more valuable reading becomes

and our stress levels go up and down throughout life. At times things are relatively easy

At times they're relatively tough. But the tougher they are, the more valuable a book becomes

But a book makes you switch off. A phone doesn't make you switch off. A phone plays with your head, makes you more anxious

My anxiety levels are higher when I've been on my phone. When I'm with a book, I'm much calmer

I sleep better. It's just different. And that's one of those things

This is the strangest thing, in a way, about being a human being, is that you can see with absolute clarity

that what you're... I suppose we're talking about borderline addiction, aren't we

We can see with absolute clarity this is not good for us, but I'm going to carry on doing it anyway

I play a word game with, as you say, complete strangers. I do quite like that

That does keep my brain engaged, if you like. That's quite good, but not all the time

I do it a bit in the morning, a bit at night, maybe 20 minutes. So everything, everything

We talk about all things in moderation. That's the trick. You know, you play it on public transport

But again, I used to read on the tube. And now I'm on my phone for my entire journey

looking at the news sites, which is a little bit like reading. Well, it is reading. But then what are we losing

So we'll just put imagination on the list. We're not going to get a definitive, which is why I'm going to come back to this topic again and again and again

As the news repeats, I promise you this is going to happen

And you've got Singapore now encouraging its population to read more by literally paying them to do so

but also turning it into a kind of game by accruing tokens and accruing credits

The gamification of reading, that's a pretty grim thought, but it's better than the alternative, which is to stop reading altogether

You've got imagination, as Vivian describes it, but also just that ability

Sometimes you can't get to a big sky, you can't get to the sky

Just what are we going to lose? What are we going to turn into? How meta do you want to go

How dystopian do you want to go on this? Do you want to go all in? Go all in on it

Go on. 0345 6060 973. Because we are not reading anymore, James

the world will... Alex is in Nottingham. Alex, what would you like to say

Hi, James. It's a good to speak to you again. Yeah, for me, books are a way to escape

the day-to-day drudgery of life. to escape stress and just get me out of my own head for a little bit

I'm someone that's very busy in my mind. I'm constantly thinking of things that I have to do all the time

all the chores, all the responsibilities. And when I'm reading, I'm just away from that entirely

I'm in another world. And being online is not the same, is it

Even though we're not in the day-to-day, we might feel that we're escaping from our drudgery

parts of our brain are being stimulated by whatever we're looking at whether it's relatively

benign or relatively unpleasant parts of our brain are being stimulated in ways that reading

does the opposite it unstimulates them i think exactly and it's online is very much a very

short stimulation yes these days whereas when i'm reading i get lost for for a long

time um and i i did struggle i i got to the point where i was just doing scrolling or watching

youtube things before bed and um struggling a lot with my sleep and last couple of months um i sort

of had a a thought of no i i need to stop this i need to put my phone down and i need to pick my

book up because i know that's what i really enjoy and it was it was hard to do for the first time

I mean even my dog knows I look at my phone too much

How does she communicate that? She has literally sat in bed with me

and I've picked up my phone to have another look at something she's put a paw on my hand

to stop me from picking it up again Oh that's brilliant and saying you know when I'm on a dog walk

if I get out my phone oh there's a message she stops and she looks at me

Are you sure she hasn't got the you know, she hasn't programmed it to recognize her paw print

Not quite. She's clever. She's German pepper, but she's not that clever. Okay, gosh. And that wouldn't always have been..

I mean, you know, she's responding... Well, let's not impute too much into your dog's intelligence

but she's responding to how much you're on it, not the fact that you're on it at all

Exactly. And I'm not giving her the attention that I should be doing as a dog owner

and it's again making me be much more present on my dog walks with her

I'm putting that away. I might have an audiobook or yourself on catch-up as I'm walking around

but I'm not looking at the screen. I'm really trying to engage with her rather than that

And just back to books in terms of what they give you, I think one of the things we're in danger of is empathy and perspective

losing that because when you're reading books, there's often characters that will challenge your mindset will anger you will make you realistic

certain emotions um but the really good authors out there will give you understanding and

perspective of why they are like that of course they will and give you a taste of what it's like

to walk a mile in another person's shoes i i mean as you probably thank you alex as you probably

know i'm a little bit obsessed with people who i think are decent who are currently being corrupted

or groomed or manipulated by largely far-right influences on social media. And imagine how quickly you would change

if you were being exposed endlessly to that kind of content and never reading books

So, I mean, you're frying your brain by dint of being permanently online

But imagine if you're permanently online watching the very carefully cultivated propaganda and racist lies

that now dominate social media. dominates your mum's Facebook dominates Elon Musk's ex

imagine what it does to you if you were watching that and then it was being

balanced, it was being like the BBC of social media platforms, here's some racism, here's some

anti-racism, here's some racism, here's some anti-racism here's some racism, here's some anti-racism

you'd have a chance, right? You'd have a chance but you're not

you're zoning into this place it's going, oh yes, they watched that one all the way

to the end, let's send them some more racism so here's some racism oh and here's some more racism here's even more racism here's some white

supremacism here's some nazi sympathy here's something really unpleasant and then you wonder

why people wake up one morning and think i wonder what i can do today i know i'm going to put a mask

on and go and terrorize communities in my own country under the guise of caring about

communities in my own country it's not hard to work out another symptom but not the absolute

essence of what is lost when we do not read it's 12 31 amelia cox is here with the headlines

james o'brien on lbc it is 12 34 you're listening to james o'brien on lbc i i mean the the one of

the things that you lose by not reading of course is is nuance the power of nuance my friend and

colleague natasha devon um with you of course at weekends on lbc has written a book called the

nuanced drought reclaiming truth and complexity in a polarized world which is bang on message so

almost as if we planned it natasha will be joining us before the end of the program today

speaking of writers that i that i um have in my own contacts book writers that i know neil is on

the line from tavistock neil lancaster writer of um absolutely first cast crime fiction so

obviously you're in favor of reading neil as long as it's only your books

Oh, absolutely. Don't read anybody else's books. They're all rubbish. What are we going to lose

What are we in danger of losing, do we think? I tell you what, I keep thinking about this

Because I'm struggling to read at the moment, but the reason I'm struggling to read at the moment

is because I'm deep in a first draft of a book. Right. And having somebody else's words in my head

and voice in my head... I haven't got your voice in my head, unfortunately

because the phone line's just gone south, but we will resurrect that

and find out more about what you've got, also what you're working on at the moment. In the meantime, Eva is in Blackheath

Eva, what made you pick up the phone? Hello, I'm a first-time caller, long-time listener

You're very welcome. It's not compulsory to say that, you know. There's no sort of alarm that goes off in the background

I just always wanted to say it. Well, now you have. There we go. Yeah, no, I mean, I listen to you every day

and I have to say this is the first time I've felt completely compelled to pick up the phone

because it is something I am talking about with my partner and with my friends constantly

which is that my phone addiction is absolutely ruining my life, to be quite frank

I mean, before sort of TikTok came around, I was an avid reader

I constantly had a book on the go, you know, whether or not I finished it was one thing

because I would always be distracted. But, you know, I was constantly reading

And to be honest, I think, you know, I was a nicer person because of it

You know, you have better empathy, more creative. I mean, last night, for example

my partner and I, we both went to see a show. And when we were on the train

we both just sat there scrolling. Not talking about what you just seen Yeah or I mean it was on the way mostly that I noticed it But like you know we haven seen each other for a couple of days because I was away with work and it not for not wanting to speak to one another It such a brilliant picture It an addiction

It's such a powerful picture because I do it in restaurants, and we're pretty good, my

wife and I, but I see other couples who can go for an entire meal sitting in a restaurant

and they're all scrolling on their phone, but then you're right, then you'll catch yourself

and your partner in other contexts like public transport when you're just doing it

Why do you use the word addiction? Well, I mean, you use the word ruining my life

When did you first sort of start picking up on that, something so profound

I just noticed that it has bled into so many areas of my life

you know, not being able to get up out of bed in the morning

I'm freelance myself, so, you know, there are often days in between work where I'll, you know, have a long list of to-dos

Yeah. And all of these sort of dreams of being super productive. And the second I open up Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, anything, you know, you're just completely

sucked in and hours go by without even noticing. And I really think it affects your mental health

I think it makes you much less creative. I'm also a writer and an actor

And I haven't been able to write or think of anything, you know, creatively in so long

And I noticed such a difference amongst... I went to Cambridge and TikTok sort of happened around..

Sorry, you mean to study. You don't just mean on a day out. I've done a few of those as well

No, I mean to study. but um and while i was at university covid happened the first pandemic happened after my

first term and that was around the time that tiktok kind of had its boom amongst my generation at least

that was my experience and i have to say i was a much more intelligent hard-working creative person

before university than i am now oh wow and and and i mean now that you're putting it in such stark

terms it's impossible to resist the joining of the dots that you're doing because you if i mean

if you think of empathy or even the brain itself as something that needs exercise yeah we're not

exercising it it's as if it's as if we're playing a video game of exercise instead of actually

exercising and kidding part of our brain that we're exercising when we're not and and even and

even like you know i see a tiktok of someone walking around rome for the day and here's all

of the things you can do in Rome. And it's like I turn it off and I feel as though I've been in Rome

But I haven't gone anywhere. I haven't seen the world. I find myself so often living vicariously

through my phone. And that's something that sounds quite healthy. It's not like you're watching, you know

hideous footage or far-right propaganda, but you're feeding. It's like fake feeding

Yeah, I mean, there's equal parts of that as well. It's fake feeding, isn't it? It's a fake... Yeah. ...fake feeding

And you think you've been nourished, but you somehow haven't. part of you knows that you haven't been, and part of you is just about successfully persuaded

that you have been, and it's that second part that has you going back for more, all the time

all the time. What are you going to do about it? I don't know. I mean, it's a constant conversation

amongst my friends and with my partner and things, and we've all been like, yeah, isn't it mad that

we're all addicted to our own, and then we just go straight back on. Ah, lordy, that is the thing

isn't it? I mean, when's the last time you finished a book? On holiday a couple of weeks

ago. Yeah, everyone's saying that. I mentioned that because it's grounds for hope. If you can

still do it on holiday, then there's hope for us yet, Eva. We're not completely lost

If you can still do it on holiday, you can still access that part of your brain. But it is

I'm glad you've used quite extreme language. I'm glad you said it's ruining your life

because it is. That's why I was trying to touch on with who will we be if we do not read? What do

we become? Who are we? And the answer is less. All ruined. It is less. We are less than we would be

And yet, of course, that siren call of the screen is so hard to resist. Something about being on

holiday when other parts of your stress system perhaps are winding down, other parts of your

system are relaxing, it allows that part of your system to return

Lord, and you're so young as well. Good luck fighting the good fight

12.42 is the time. And let's go back to Neil Lancaster, author, of course

of a whole bunch of novels, most obviously the Tom Novak and Max Craigie series

What are we going to lose when you're talking about yourself being immersed in research and so

not wanting other voices in your head? But if you'd never read at all

Who would you be today? Well, I most certainly wouldn't be a writer, that's for sure

Every writer I know is a reader, first and foremost. It's only by immersing yourself in that kind of world

that you learn to think that way. I mean, if it wasn't for Desmond Bagley

if it wasn't for James Herriot, if it wasn't for Gerald Durrell, there was no chance I'd be a writer

I don't know what I'd be doing. So being a reader has made me a writer

and that's the greatest gift that I've ever had when I think about it

You know, there's nothing that a screen can do that can do better than a novel can

than a good, well-written book. Are you susceptible to it yourself? Do you ever..

Do you ever... Do you ever... Do you ever recognise... Or have you managed to resist that

Horrendously. Are you bad at it? No, I'm terrible. And it's embarrassing and I hate myself

for it, but I get dragged down that same rabbit hole that all of us get dragged down

I mean, I deleted TikTok because it was so... I never got into TikTok

but I used to spend way too much time on Twitter. I almost, oh Elon Musk, a thank

you for turning it into a doctor's sewer that I couldn't bear the smell anymore and had to get out

But it grabs anyone, doesn't it? This is the point. That's why I was interested in

Eva saying I was at Cambridge and you could still, you know, there's no one is

immune to it It doesn actually matter how educated you are going into the experience you begin you know on those science fiction films when they shut down the mainframe computer and it sort of goes like zoom zoom

That's what we're doing to ourselves, isn't it? We're just shutting ourselves down. Well, we are being monetized. We all know this

We all saw it with the recent Facebook, you know, being sued, Meta getting sued

And they're getting sued because addictiveness was part of their business model

They denied that while paying hundreds of millions of dollars in compensation

They did deny that they were responsible for anything, but your memory is correct of that case

And that's exactly it. So the attention economy means that books are going to lose

It's much easier to sit there looking at nonsense on your phone, and I find myself doing this as well

than to read something that might really challenge you, that might really spike your imagination

Where's the imagination in looking at this nonsense on the screens that we look at

And I suppose, to labour the point somewhat, that if you are capable of imagining what it's like to be someone else

then you are less susceptible to being told that that someone else over there is your enemy

or wishes you harm with no evidence whatsoever. What are you working on at the moment

I've just finished a completely new thing that's going to be coming out next year

which is a whole new thing for a new character, all set in Devon

Oh, fantastic. But there's another Max Craigie coming next year. I look forward to it

And, yeah, so it's all good fun. But I owe everything to reading. It's given me a sense of..

For people who don't know, you're ex-military, ex-RAF, military police. I mean, they're not necessarily a path

that leads inexorably towards literature. But as you say, if you were reading

then it becomes, it's a door that's there, isn't it? You can choose to go through it or not

but at least you know it's there. I think it's the most incredible thing

and I lament the smartphone. Yeah, well, that's funny, isn't it? I think everybody is beginning to

It's like the kids who loved it when they were taken off them at school

and yet the minute they were allowed to get them back again, they were straight back into the old habits

Neil, it's always good to hear your voice, and I got your message yesterday. I've just realised I didn't reply, so thank you for that

And I look forward to seeing the new stuff. 12.46 is the time

If you haven't read any of Neil Lancaster's work, don't take my word for it

Take Ian Rankin's and many others who are along with me, among his many, many fans

That line there, I think I said this last time Neil rang in, Reacher meets the line of duty

If you're writing thrillers, that's the endorsement from a god like Ian Rankin

that you absolutely dream of. 12.46 is the time. I don't know whether Natasha Devon

has had endorsements from any gods of literature, but her new book is bang on the money

and very relevant to what we're talking about today, The Nuance Drought. We'll be talking to her shortly about that

Before that, probably time for one or two more calls on this vexed question of what we are losing

by not reading. It's 12.47. James O'Brien on LBC. It's 10 to 1, you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC

where my friend and colleague Natasha Devon has moseyed into the studio

because she has written a book which couldn't really be more relevant

to the conversation that we're having, albeit that we are discussing, I think, I don't know which is the symptom

and which is the cause, the consequences of not reading enough, and you are writing, Natasha, about something you've very cleverly called

the nuance drought and the impact that has upon truth and complexity

in a polarized world. Where did the idea come from? Well, I mean, gestures at world, really

Just absolutely everything, the water that we're swimming in. But specifically what inspired me is a story that I tell

right at the beginning of the book where I was with a really good friend of mine. We were having a chat and she said

I've got this terrible secret to confess to you. And I thought, what on earth could it be

And she eventually told me, I don't like Meghan Markle. and I laughed and then I went why and she went I just find her a bit live laugh love you know

she's been I don't hate her or anything I don't think she deserves the vitriol she's got in the press I just don't like her and I thought how have we ended up in a place where my friend thought she

was confessing this terrible secret to me and we talked about how it's so binarized that you have

to be on one side or the other and she thought you were on the other side she did part of the fear

of the confession was you, not just what she thought. But the reason... Natasha will think

less of me for this. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But I then had to explain that the reason I am team Megan is

because of the way that she's been treated by large swathes of our media. So that's what got

me thinking about the nuanced drought in a serious way. What is nuance? Really good question. There's

a whole chapter in the book about what nuance is not. So it's definitely not having to present

both sides of an argument no matter what. It's not taking the midpoint between two extremes

I came to the conclusion that really it's just context. It's having as much of the facts at

your fingertips before approaching an issue as you possibly can. Interestingly, I was listening

to your first hour and there is a passage in the book which relates exactly to what you were

talking about, where I say I can imagine why somebody might be nervous about having thousands

of men who aren't working coming to live nearby them, particularly if they live in a tiny village

Of course. And that has nothing to do with necessarily their ethnicity. The problem is

is that because that's largely unacknowledged, the far right come along, they put their arm around

people with concerns. They say, we understand you. And then the whole campaign becomes racist

That's extraordinary, because that is almost exactly what was described to us by Rachel, who was on Newsnight last night and who rang into the show today about what she thinks has happened to her village. So reasonable origins are manipulated and corrupted by profoundly unpleasant people for personal gain. And how does nuance battle that? How does anybody battle that

Well I mean I hope that you don find this in any way obsequious because I mean it genuinely I think that what you are doing here on LBC is one of the antidotes to it Yeah but I preaching to the choir mate aren I You are but I think

I suppose the clips, the clips reach parts. The fact that you go so viral, the fact that there is clearly a thirst for this type of content

means that inevitably more people will be inspired by that. Where do you fit into the conversation we're having at the moment

about reading in general? How big a role has not reading played

in the polarisation of everything? I think it's huge. It actually made me wish that the last chapter in the book

is called 10 Things You Can Do Today, and I really wish now that I'd put Read More into my tips on that

You'll get it in the paperback. Yeah, I'll get it in the paperback. That would be an everything. What are you going to knock off

We'll vote. We'll do a vote on what you can remove from the list of 10 to replace it with reading

But it is just exposing yourself to other views, and reading is one of the easiest ways to do that

What else are people going to find when they pick this up? The sort of weaponisation

I mean, as a fellow LBC presenter, You're going through our bread and butter, aren't you

And essentially wondering, as a whole chapter on how the media operates, you're essentially wondering, as I do every day

how people have ended up in positions that they can't particularly enjoy being in

and that don't bear much resemblance to reality. Absolutely. What people will find is an insider view

I'm sure you remember this period of time, James. Between about 2012 and 2015, I was never off the telly

and that was very much the era of the debate the morning tv debate where everything was binarized

and i remember these conversations with researchers where i was saying well i can a bit see what the

other side is saying there's truth in both of these positions and you're not allowed to have

that perspective they won't invite you back they won't invite you on at all unless you pretend to

have an extreme view and then say it when you're on air in which case you won't get invited back i had to do a bit of soul searching about my own contribution but then i thought well if i hadn't

done that would i have ended up in a position where i have a show on lbc and then i get to

decide what the question is so you're describing that the enforcement of polarization absolutely

compulsory to have two people whether they mean it or not and we both know a lot of them don't

we both know that a lot of them sort of almost track the rhythms i remember doing one of those

shows years ago and someone said to me in the green room it doesn't really matter what you say

as long as you say it like this, da-dum-da-dum-da-dum-da-dum-da-dum-da-dum-da-dum-da-dum-da-dum-da-dum-da-dum-da-dum-da-dum-da-dum-da-dum. And then your ITV daytime audience will all start clapping

And I tried it that day and he was right. I did it. I can't even remember what I was saying about it

And then another thing is that what you've got to remember is... And then they come around and go..

The Piddington... The Fighting Edge... And they all... Alan Titchmarsh's audience all start going like that

And none of them, None of them would have been able to tell you what it was that I just said

But that's showbiz. And it's an environment where conflict is king as well

But you're encouraged in a kind of gladiatorial way to pick your fighter

And it's the person that is the least wrong, in your view, not the person who is the most right

Yes. Yes, I see what you mean. Bearing in mind you've written ten things that we can do to get better

And bearing in mind that the book explores a heck of a lot. but we have managed to cram so much into..

It's a relatively slim volume, isn't it, in the great scheme of things. Would it be crass of me to wonder

what the biggest offenders are? I mean, you talk about the attention economy

and you talk about the media, you talk about invisible bias. If we were to track this back

and perhaps you do, to an origin story, because I don't know that the kind of telly you used to do

and even more years ago I used to do, I don't know that that is entirely new

I mean, what is the beginning of this? Is there something that we could go back if we had a DeLorean sports car and we could undo it

We'd all be living much more harmonious and happy lives now. I think probably it started with 24-hour rolling media

where they had to have these type of debates, but also had to invite in what were relatively fringe voices

but who would say ludicrous things, like Nigel Farage at the time. and then that was exacerbated of course by social media um and it's also been seized upon by the far

right all the far right are doing is trying to get you in the right algorithm so they will weaponize

what are sometimes quite reasonable concerns tell you that they're the only people that get it set up

quite a reasonable sounding facebook group it's just to get you in the right algorithm to try and

radicalize you um i yeah i mean you're almost certainly right it's 52 48 for me do you know

the other thing i think it was yeah the um comments under newspaper articles because i'm older than you

and when the guardian started inviting comments under newspaper articles everything changed

and people would be writing increasingly unhinged things even on the guardian it's before the daily

mail started inviting people to comment under its stories and they got the most attention so the

person on the Guardian website who said something like, I don't know, send them all back where they

came from, would get more attention than the person making interesting comments about the article they

just read. And once you recognize that, God, I get more attention, I get a bigger kick

the next thing you know, the columnists were doing it. And, you know, the Daily Telegraph was

publishing nobody else except the people who were representing the very worst of the below the line

comments. So I reckon 52% below the line comments, 48%, 24 hour news. And if we could undo those

then we'd be able to undo an awful lot of the consequences of the nuance drought. I'll take that

Natasha Devon's new book, The Nuance Drought, Reclaiming Truth and Complexity in a Polarised World, is out now

Let me mention some of the people. Ashley James and Carol Vorderman. There's a double act that you can't resist

Both offering up very, very warm words of praise for it. And Natasha, of course, will be back on LBC

You're not going away, are you? No. Back on LBC at six on Saturday. Yes

Happy? She's more succinct than me, isn't she? She is a bit. If you missed any of today's show

you can listen back on our free Global Player app or the LBC app where you can... She's watching the clock, she, and I never do that

She's a pro, she's a pro. She only does one show a week. I've done several thousand

I still haven't got the hang of the time. If you missed any of it, you can download the LBC app

Loads of podcasts, all of that. Download it now for free from your app store now. Coming up at four on LBC, it's Tom Swalbrick

but now it's time for Sheila Fogarty. No, no, and yes are the answers to the three questions

Or from me, anyway, the answers that I would give to the three questions I'm going to ask today. James O'Brien on LBC