‘What do they have to gain from being wilfully ignorant?’ | James O’Brien - The Whole Show

minutes after 10 is the time and you are listening to james o'brien on lbc where the quote from the

great canon of british literature that we have referred to most often on this program over the

years is probably this one there was truth and there was untruth and if you clung to the truth

even against the whole world you were not mad and um at some mornings that feels even more urgent

advice, doesn't it, than others? Because I'm afraid we find ourselves as we have several times over the years

I probably don't need to list the examples, but you know Brexit, Boris Johnson

Liz Trust, Donald Trump, Benjamin Netanyahu, austerity all of the things that elements of our

establishment, particularly in politics in the media, united to tell us were one way, turned out

not long after the event, to be completely the opposite. And all of the critics of all of those things turned out in every single case to

be completely right. So you have to hold on to the truth, even against the whole world

Because that's the way you don't go mad. I had to give my head a bit of a wobble this morning

when I saw the date on this statement that I'm about to read to you, I actually struggled to

believe that it was six years ago to the day that a woman felt compelled to issue this plea

to the day that's the bit that prompted me to give my head a wobble the contents of the

statement didn't because i think i alluded to them yesterday as a foundation and a family

we are aware of a number of posts using images of lee and his murder in a divisive way to fuel

arguments against the Black Lives Matter protests. Lee proudly served his country to protect the

rights and freedoms of all members of this great melting pot of a nation. Seeing his image used to

cause hate of any kind, especially for those exercising their freedoms in protest against

this issue, hurts. We find these posts extremely heartbreaking and distressing and in complete

opposition to what Lee stood for. We ask you all to please stop using his image and memory in such

posts as he was a lover of all humanity every race gender creed sexuality and color so seeing

such use of his name harms not only his family but his legacy and memory our thoughts and support

go out to george floyd's friends and family at this tragic time we wish you all love and peace

at this time and that was posted by lynn rigby on behalf of the lee rigby foundation six years ago

today. Plus ça flipping change. Eh? Plus ça change

Somebody murdered in horrific circumstances sees their own family issue a plea

to racists to stop using their death to score political points or to spread further hatred, further division

and what do they do? They dance on the grave of the dead and they

completely ignore the wishes of the family. I don't think this is a morning for getting cross

again. There was plenty of that yesterday. I think this is a morning for a slightly cooler

reflection on what is happening in our country at the moment and an attempt together to work out why

it is happening because that's the bit that confuses me, the why of it. Not the what of it

that's fairly easy to track, but the absolute why of it because it is obvious that people talking

about unconscious bias or diversity training or anti-white racism or two-tier policing it is

obvious from even a cursory understanding of the facts that that is not true so we can automatically

divide people who are doing those things into two categories there are people who honestly think it

is true who we can possibly reach and then there are people who know it isn't true who i don't think

we can and that is where the parallels with all of those other recent events that I mentioned at

the opening of the program become absolutely irresistible isn't it some people are persuadable

by facts and evidence and some people are not so if you believe for example that police officers

are going about their business in this country with inherent or carefully cultivated biases

against white people and you truly believe that without any evidence but with very carefully

cultivated ideas and phrases being poured into your ear a tragic call yesterday from an 18 year

old lad who was adamant that unconscious bias was the reason why um uh henry novak was dead but

he couldn't tell you what unconscious bias was what unconscious bias training involved or why

training against unconscious bias was a bad thing a headline just to put in front of you at that

point in the conversation about unconscious bias from today's daily telegraph all nhs staff to have

anti-semitism training good that's a good thing training people to be less racist pointing out

to people that some of the things they don't realize are racist are racist they are good

things another headline for you from the times stab victim arrest force quotes pressured end

quotes by racism course one in five police officers and staff feared saying the wrong

thing after mandatory diversity training should we have a little stop and think what that might

have involved i mean you could have gone with the other headline 85 percent had absolutely no problem

with it whatsoever which i think is probably not true 15 strikes me as very very low for um

organizations of human beings that are routinely found to be institutionally racist misogynistic

and homophobic most recently of course by louise casey but what that means of course is that some

people go into uh diversity training or unconscious bias training and the royal college of police and

Others have told us that most coppers couldn't tell you what it involved or even remember whether they've done it or not

But some go into it and come out feeling very, very uncomfortable. Do you want to know a secret

Do you know who is most uncomfortable with having unconscious bias pointed out

whether it's racism, homophobia or misogyny? Do you want to have a guess at who's most uncomfortable

and most opposed to attempts to root that sort of thing out of our society

Yeah, well done. It's people who don't like having it pointed out that they're racist

and that is you know not an opinion that's counting so again we see the british media

almost unanimously this morning with a few glorious exceptions jumping on to this ludicrous

ludicrous farage flavored bandwagon pretending that there is either two-tier policing in this

country or that attempts to make the police force less racist against people of color which

all the statistics show us haven't worked very well have somehow made the police force which is

almost unanimously dominated by white people, have somehow made the police force

biased against people who are white, who are not of colour. And some of the headlines are, frankly, extraordinary

Inevitably, Alistair Heath in the Daily Telegraph, the man that told you Liz Truss was an economic genius

that Boris Johnson was better than sliced bread, that Brexit was going to solve all of your ills and make you rich

He writes, anti-white racism is real and there be more Henry Novak until it crushed Okay Brendan O in The Spectator why can we rage against George Floyd death but not Henry Novak Well I think it probably a rhetorical question

because I have seen plenty of raging against Henry Novak's death, although much of it is built on misapprehensions and misunderstandings

which are only sustainable if you ignore the facts of the case

the comments of the judge, the report of the pathologist, and the pleas and the explanations of the family

So by all means, rage away about it. But just acknowledge, please, that you're ignoring the judge

you're ignoring Henry's family, you're ignoring the pathologist's report, and you're ignoring the lived reality of police officers

who've had, quote, unconscious bias training. And then the Times, Henry Novak and the corrosive effect of DEI on policing

So, I mentioned to you yesterday the judge's comments. I suggested to you that you should read them

and I don't think that that was necessarily... I mean, I'm going to sound a bit paternalistic now

So, take it as you will, but I should have warned you, I think, possibly even a trigger warning

I should have warned you that elements of the judge's report are unbearable

The immediate aftermath of Henry's stabbing, being particularly sick and gross, it's easy, and indeed not something I'm minded to resist, to conjure up bilious hatred of the man responsible

But, of course, the other thing that comes out in the judges' comments

is that it was a horrible tragedy, a consequence of the fickle finger of fate

pointing at an entirely innocent boy on an evening in Southampton. And the judges' comments make that absolutely clear

I shared them with you yesterday, but I think it's probably worth sharing some of them with you again tonight

I beg your pardon, today. Because so many people are deliberately ignoring them

Here's what happened, right? One man stabbed another man. And then the killer's brother phoned the police to report a racial attack

That means that the call handler informing the police and the police attending the scene

believed that they were attending the scene where the two men who had reported the attack were the victims

and the man that they had reported was the perpetrator. They arrived at the scene and they did something

which I suspect the inquiry will find they shouldn't have done. They handcuffed Henry Novak

Although, as the judge reported, this is a well-known trope. It is the experience of the criminal courts

I'm reading the judge's comments now, because somebody has to, that sometimes someone arrested and handcuffed will feign injury

in the hope that they may be released. These police officers were faced with having to make quick decisions

in pressurized circumstances about the best way to act. I think it will find, the inquiry

that he shouldn't have been handcuffed, that that was a regrettable mistake made in the heat of the moment

and some people will, of course, claim that it was because he was white. But to do that, you have to completely ignore

the absolutely unavoidable reality of people of color being handcuffed in similar circumstances on countless occasions

some of whom even ended up dead. So, the judge has told us what happened

He also referenced the pathologist's report, which again, I can't quite believe that the kind of coverage that I just alluded to a moment ago has somehow managed to completely and utterly ignore the pathologist's report

Because one of the things that I think even people who haven't bought into the propaganda and the hideous decision to completely ignore the wishes, the expressed wishes of Henry Novak's family, even people who haven't bought into that may be surprised to discover that there was no way the poor boy could have lived

the pathologist Amanda Jeffrey found over two pints of blood at the scene she said that no

emergency medical treatment would have permitted access to the bleeding vein in simple terms he

would not have survived however quickly he received first aid CPR or expert medical treatment

so you've decided to ignore the judge who has explained that when the police arrived it was

entirely understandable due to Henry's clothing and the time of night that they wouldn't have

noticed all of the blood on him, and they were under the impression that they were responding to a crime reported by victims

It took them, I think, less than three minutes, possibly less than a minute, to establish that the facts were actually the other way round

and to arrest the perpetrator who will happily rot in jail, hopefully rot in jail, for the rest of his life

His brother and his father still face trial for other offences. That's your two-tier policing for you right there

So you've decided to completely ignore the judge and his detailed, careful explanations

you've decided to completely ignore the pathologist and her expert insistence that the poor man could not have survived

however quickly he received first aid, CPR or medical, expert medical treatment

you've decided to completely ignore the fact that so-called anti-racism policies had absolutely nothing to do with the treatment of Henry Novak

not least because although politicians may choose to describe the phraseology as clumsy

all it really means is that, as is explained by one journalist today

Someone who is Jewish may need reassurance that police are taking a claim of criminal damage seriously and that hate will be considered as a motive

So if I get attacked in the street or if, for example, somebody were to throw bacon at me in the street, I would expect to be treated differently from a Muslim or a Jew

Right? You understand why, yeah? If I was black and you were stopping and searching me, I would expect these days to have it proved to me that you weren't stopping me because I was black, which has happened in this country for years

but you were stopping me because you had reasonable grounds to suspect that I had committed a crime

Those are what these guidelines are in place to do. This is not hard to understand

And if you don't currently understand it, it is not hard to find the help that you need to establish this

Ministers accept the document was not even sent to officers to act on

but regardless it gives the wrong impression. But we return to those headlines

anti-white racism is real and there'll be more Henry Novak's until it's crushed

How is Henry Novak a victim of anti-white racism if he would have died regardless of what happened at the scene of the crime

That's a question you can put to Alistair Heath if you ever have the misfortune of meeting him

Or perhaps you could just ask him why he hasn't bothered to read the judge's sentencing or indeed the pathologist's report

Henry Novak and the corrosive effect of DEI on policing. Reports the Times without telling you what that DEI..

Usually what they get is some retired copper who's still bitter about the circumstances in which they left the force

insisting that these days everybody's woke. I'll tell you what is a story

The underfunding and the collapse in morale that unfolded in the police service under 14 years of Tory rule and George Osborne's austerity

But these papers can't tell you about that because, of course, they were cheering it from the rafters for the entire duration of that decade and a half

And then you have the, why can't we rage? I mean the stupidest headline of all inevitably

in the Spectator magazine, why can we rage against George Floyd's death but not Henry Novak's

well I suppose because Henry Novak wasn't killed by the police and

Henry Novak's perpetrator has been jailed as a consequence of police actions

not despite police actions which is the biggest difference between George Floyd I mean what the point of explaining this Because of course some people are determined not to see

the evidence of their own eyes and ears. Some people are determined not to... not to know

They are determined to tell their readers, their listeners, their viewers lies. Absolute lies

This idea that the police turned up and didn't do the inquiries that they should have done because they were worried about..

the ethnicities of the perpetrator. You know where that takes you logically

The natural culmination of that line of thought. If you ring up to report a burglary later today

yeah, the first thing the police should do when they turn up at your house is establish that you're not actually the burglar

We're going to 24 Acacia Avenue. We've had a report of a burglary

Who handed in the report? Oh, James O'Brien did. Okay. Hello, sir, what's your name

James O'Brien. Ah. I'm just going to ask you to empty your pockets. Actually, I'm just going to ask you to prove

that you're not the burglar. That's what you're hearing already. This idea that you turn up and

you believe nothing or ask everything. If someone reports a crime, the first person you go to in

trying to find out what's gone on is the person that reported the crime. I think, and this is

something I say carefully, I think what we're seeing here is an outpouring of rage that the

police didn't turn up at the scene of this crime and automatically presume that the brown people were the criminals and the liars and the white person was the innocent victim. I think it's that

simple. I think all of these people, writing all of these headlines

making all of these claims, ignoring all of these facts, I think they just hate the fact that the police force no

longer turn up at the scene of the crime and treat the ethnic minority

member of our population as the wrongen. I think that that's my

Occam's razor. Because the question I've got for you this morning is that when the

evidence is so incontrovertible that this has nothing to do with race

when the family of the murdered boy have pleaded with you to not bring racism into it

Just like Lee Rigby's mother has pleaded with you to leave her son out of your racist provocations

Just as Henry Novak's father begged the establishment not to do precisely what Nigel Farage subsequently did

And all of these journalists choose to ignore Henry's family. They choose to ignore the trial judge

They choose to ignore the actual pathologist. They choose to ignore all of the available evidence

about the efficacy or impact of so-called diversity training. And I want you to tell me why

Why are they doing it? Not Farage. We know why he does the things that he does

But why are they doing it? Why are people who do what I do for a living

failing utterly to read the most simple accounts of what actually happened and reaching instead

for ludicrous claims about anti-white bias in the police? One thing I didn't know, and I'm not going to apologize for this because you've got to look after your own mental health, and I don't go on the sewer that is much social media these days

Elon Musk inevitably weighing in on the platform that he owns yesterday. One thing I didn't know was how carefully the ground had been seeded for a moment like this

how desperately some elements would have been waiting for a moment like this

where they could just push the facts to the sidelines and go in on the carefully cultivated angers and hatreds

So why are they doing it? Why are people completely ignoring the judge, the murdered man's family and the pathologist

when they try and turn this into a conversation about race, about two-tier policing, or about unconscious bias trait

Why are they doing it? 0345 6060 973. I'm going to say that again, because it's a very specific question

Why are people ignoring the judge, ignoring the coroner, and ignoring Henry, the pathologist

and ignoring Henry Novak's family, in exactly the same way that they ignored Lee Rigby's mother

Why are they doing it? What do they want? This is my question for you this morning

What do they want? 0345 6060 973. James O'Brien on LBC. What do they want

What do these people want when they choose to ignore Henry Novak's father

the judge in the trial of Henry Novak's murderer, the events of the evening of Henry Novak's death

the report of the pathologist who attended the scene of Henry Novak's killing

and the easily available evidence of the reality and impact of so-called unconscious bias or diversity training

What do they actually want? I didn't ask that question soon enough with regard to some of the other things that are going on

And I'm just going to play you one more clip, because I just actually again had to give my head a wobble

I couldn't quite believe what I was hearing when the man who has, and credit where it's due, has managed to turn the death of Henry Novak categorically and clearly against the heartfelt wishes of his family into a massive political bonfire that we are compelled to take part in because if you don't, you leave the stage clear for the arsonists

arsonists so i i can't think in my head a wobble when i heard the man who is responsible for turning

this into a festival of lies exaggerations and um racism uh credit where it's due but i couldn't

quite believe my ears when i heard him responding to another murder in this country just a few short

years ago counterproductive and there is a danger that in the debate about this abduction and murder

and more broadly how safe women are on the streets, all of which is a valid debate

There's a danger. We go way too far in our criticism of men

and broaden this out from bad people to men as a group

So Sarah Everard gets murdered and Nigel Farage urges people not to broaden it out

to men getting murdered. Henry Novak gets murdered and Nigel Farage immediately broadens it out

to all men that look like the murderer. He even, I think, in that clip discouraged protest

I don't know if it's even worth asking why his response to the murder of a white woman by a white man

would be so different. Because the misogyny, as we know, is a handmaiden of racism

But why would his response to the murder of a white woman by a white policeman

be all mealy-mouthed and equable when a white man is murdered by a brown man

and the police at the scene could be construed as having... Well, I think they did behave badly in the context of the handcuffing

but suddenly they're racists. What on earth is that man on? Listen to this again

This is after Sarah Everard was abducted and murdered by a serving, and I'm going to have to say white

because that's what much of this conversation has been turned into by Nigel Farage, by a serving white policeman. Counterproductive

And there is a danger that in the debate about this abduction and murder, and more broadly

how safe women are on the streets all of which is a valid debate There a danger We go way too far in our criticism of men and broaden this out from bad people to men as a group

Is he worried that he might be on the hook for it? If we're going to go after all white men

with slightly misogynistic leanings, then, goodness me, I might be getting a knock on my door soon

Or is there something else going on here? So, what do... Ignore that

Well, don't ignore it. Take it on board next time you hear him claiming that there should be pure cold rage

about this crime, but just have a look for me, if you would, at what they want. What do these people

want when they absolutely ignore the judge, the facts, the pathologist, and the family

I don't know why they're doing it, except the possibility that they want to live in a world

like the 1960s, that they want to live in a world where if you turn up at the scene of a crime

you're a black person who's reported it, you're the one that is automatically treated like a

You might accidentally fall downstairs in the police station. You might get murdered on the streets of South London

and then the incompetence and baked-in racism of the police will mean that the people seen at the scene of your crime

go unpunished for decades, and in four of their cases, unpunished forever

What do they want? What do they actually want? It's a variation of the question of why are they doing this

and part of the answer to that will be to sell papers and to get clicks. but you don't need me to remind you where you need to go to find proof

that you can be on the side of the facts and the truth and decency and still draw in massive numbers and massive audiences

Why are they doing it? Maybe it's easy to answer, but what do they want the end game to be

What's the aim of these lies, these embellishments, these exaggerations and these hideous, heinous, unforgivable decisions

to ignore the judge, to ignore the pathologist and to ignore Henry Novak's family

What do they want? Here's Dominic Ellis with the headlines. James O'Brien on LBC

33 is the time. I mean, it is... I've talked enough, but it would be comical if it wasn't so tragic

that we have somehow woken up in 2026 in a country still riven with racism in our police forces

because all of the inquiries tell us that. And the people that brought you Brexit, Boris Johnson, Liz Truss

austerity and Donald Trump are claiming that it's all biased against white people

It would be funny if it wasn't so horrible. And the upshot of it, of course, will be more violence

At least that's what they're hoping. Why? What do they want? How does it end in their weird fever dreams

How did any of those things end in their weird fever dreams? But how does this one end

Aliyah is in Enfield. Aliyah, what would you like to say? I don't think this is the whole answer to your question

But I think part of the answer is that when I first heard this story, the first thing that stuck out to me was the racial element, the fact that they had lied

The perpetrators had lied about being racially attacked. And I knew straight away that's the element of the story

They're going to jump on the media. Yeah, I did. As soon as I heard it, I knew if there was going to be any report about it, I knew that that was..

People who want to make that the element of the story they find most important, they're going to seize that

and once you've got that your story's written like you know what you're going to say it doesn't matter what anybody else says you've got your answer basically or your

yeah you've got your story and then so to so that's that's the business model then which for

good or for ill is as old as the hills that you know i mean things have got measurably worse over

the last 10 years but the idea that you do a little bit of um victim narrative you're the real

victims here. It's awful being white in this country. It just puts bums on

seats. In a way, yeah. I think some people genuinely believe that

Yes, clearly. It proves your point. I don't think we can reach them. I don't think they can be

persuaded otherwise, really. No, but even in the media, sorry, even in the media they believe that

I think some people do anyway. I think maybe. I work in the media and I watch some people quite

closely when they end up banging these drums and going down their Brexit will be brilliant

Boris Johnson is amazing. Liz Truss is a genius. Donald Trump's a stand-up guy

Austerity is great fun. And the police officers in this case handcuffed Henry Novak

and didn't believe him because he was white. And it's all exactly the same people

I don't think anybody in one of those groups isn't in all of the other groups as well, right

And I don't... I mean, the only defence I could offer up is I don't know whether they believe or don't believe it

I just don't think they think about things. I think they know what a front page looks like on The Sun the day after Brexit

They started blaming it all on there being too many Polish shops. And then when someone of Polish heritage gets murdered by a brown person

then they just flip the table over and come at it from an entirely different angle

The only thing that it has in common is that they're telling their readers, their listeners, and their viewers

here's someone for you to hate and get angry about. I can hate that murderer, whatever colour he is

I don't need to bring his race into it, and I can feel sorry for a victim, whatever colour they are

I don't need to bring their race into it, unless it's demonstrably, provably the case

that he's died because of his colour. And in this case, the opposite is true

So I don't know. I mean, I don't know whether they believe it or not, actually. I think often they just don't think about it

It's true, because I think I... Like, if I wanted to, I could write an article with that narrative

It's easy. As soon as you see it, it's easy to write. It doesn't necessarily have to make sense

I think the parallels they draw with things like George Floyd, It's almost like it's so opposite that you can make the comparison in some, like, logical way

But why would you want to? So somebody watches the George Floyd saga unfold

and then they hear the details of the Henry Novak murder, and you're talking about a man murdered by police

whose murder would never have been properly reported or justice achieved if it wasn't for the fact that a member of the public there was filming it

And then you're looking at a man murdered by a civilian who was arrested at the scene by the police

and the footage of the police's own mistakes was then released by the actual police

And people see a parallel? People in The Spectator want to know why you can't rage about the bloke who was murdered by a civilian criminal

in the same way that you raged about the bloke who was murdered by a police officer

You're right, you can't stop to think about it too much, can you? Because if you did, you'd realise what an absolute idiot you are

Yeah, it's the same logic. If you base it on the same theory that you see something easy to write about

and you write it, that's almost... It's easy money, really. Like, you see something easy, you write about it

You don't need to think about it. And then when judges' comments and things come out, you've got the option of either admitting you've made a mistake

which they're not going to do, or just ignoring it. Or just crack on to the next thing, wait for the next disaster to unfold

and then pick somebody to tell your readers and your listeners to hate in that context

See, really, I mean, by all means, hate the perpetrator in this crime, I do, but to somehow start hating the police

and encouraging people to riot outside police stations... You don't have to answer this question

because it only just popped into my head, but what do you think Nigel Farage would have done if Sarah Everard had been killed by someone

who wasn't a white police officer? Do you think he would have been encouraging people

not to generalise about other human beings and urging them not to... be public in their protests

She was killed by somebody who wasn't white. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, because she was killed by a white police officer

and he told everyone to calm down and don't blame anybody for the crime except the man who did it

And whatever you do, don't start protesting or taking out your anger on men or the police

It depends on what he wanted at that moment. I think at the moment, he's obviously got his headset on

boosting a reform vote. I think if he was writing an article..

He thinks this is a way to do it. and he thinks this is the way to do it. If she was a newspaper editor and he was writing

or his job was to write articles, he'd write an article about it. But because right now he can use it as political capital

it's almost like you have to... It's impossible to do if you've got a conscience

but to look at it from their perspective of, I guess, completely remove the human element from it

Yeah, I mean, you may have killed my phone in stone dead

a liar. I do this a lot. I overthink things. I presume that people who do at least what

I do for a living will think about things a little bit, like read the pathologist's

comments, read the judge's sentencing, listen to the family, but maybe I'm just a bit of an idiot myself

I mean, have a look at the last 50 years of the British media. From the moment

Rupert Murdoch bought the News of the World, it's been clear that the best

business model is just to feed people absolute hate-filled bile and encourage

them to direct it at whichever target you've identified today, because don't forget, ten years ago

almost to the day, it was people with Polish names. The front page of the Sun

was saying, good, we voted Brexit, get out of our country. Too many

Polish shops. So it doesn't actually, there's not even a veneer of logic to the hatred

Except that it will never be directed at middle-aged, middle-class white men. Even if they are

police officers, even if one of their number, a serving police officer, has murdered a

white woman. I find those Everard comments of Farage's, even by his standards

in the context of what he's done this week. Breathtaking. But none of the people

who he agrees to be interviewed by will be asking him about them any time soon

Of that, I can assure you. Thank you, Elias. Ian's in Stafford. Ian, what would you like to say

I think it's the answer in two parts, maybe, but it all links back

down to the attention economy, really. You know, first part, why are

your colleagues doing it? Well, I think you're modest enough to know

not everybody wants to listen to you or people like you or people like Sheila who've got some

you know rational uh understanding of things they they want to listen to people who are dramatists

who who shout down the microphone who we'll we'll do a bit of shouting and and you put me in a very

uncomfortable position in because i've got the biggest audience well exactly but oh no there it

You've spoiled my moment in the sun there with the quality of your phone line. We may get you back

I mean, it's a question, isn't it? What are these people doing, whether they work here or not

Why are they ignoring the judge? Why are they ignoring the family of Henry Novak

Why are they ignoring the pathologist? Why are they claiming that something that doesn't exist exists

Why are they living in a country where endemic racism in the police service

has been identified, evidenced, and proven time and time again from Macpherson to Casey

and they're pretending that the exact opposite is true. Oh, yes, there is racism, there is two-tier policing

but it's directed at white people. And maybe I am overthinking it

Maybe there isn't an answer to the question of what do they want. They don't care. They just want fires today and jam tomorrow

I think we've got Ian's phone line up. Stay where you are, Kit. I'll be with you imminently. So move on, if you would, to the question of what they want

Yeah, so I think it was in two parts. Firstly, they're feeding their customer base

and, you know, attention economy, getting the clicks and making sure they're getting their advertising revenue

But why do the customers want it? I think it's because a certain amount of, you know

the population and people like to live or experience life and be part of something that's achieved through an easy argument

that doesn't require logical thinking. And they like to feel like victims

And they like to feel like victims. It's easier to feel like a victim than it is to actually sit, think

rationalise and understand an argument, something like this, which is very complex

It's not that complex. It's not that complex. I mean, this case

isn't that complex. It's all there in the judge's report. It's all there in what the pathologist

said. It's all there in what Mark Novak said after sitting in court every day of the trial

This isn't complex if you take the time and the effort to go and find

that information. And I think that's the issue. How do you put

I'm not usually able to relate to those things. How did you put Henry's dad on mute? How does that work

Well, it's just ridiculous, isn't it? Yeah. It's absolutely ridiculous. I think the only person who could carry the weight, the credence

and have the emotional investment to ask or direct how people should behave in this instance is just totally ignored

Yeah. And, you know, as we often say on the programme, the lie can be halfway around the world before the truth has got its trousers on

I mean, another thing that is stressed by both the judge and by Henry Novak's father

is that the murder itself had absolutely nothing to do with race. It was an altercation in the street between two young men at no point in any of..

And it was filmed, so everybody knows what the run-up to it was

So, you know, I get a couple of messages. Here's one. I think it's important to say that Henry was killed by a racist

It's important to say that that is absolute hokum. Even if it were true, it's utterly unevidenced and unproved

and not even claimed by anybody involved in the case, including the actual prosecution, Jason

The actual prosecution. And the reason for that is that they were filming each other

up until the moment of impact, so you can identify without even a scintilla of doubt

what happened in the immediate run-up to the crime, to the hideous crime

Committed just for the avoidance of doubt by absolute scum. the more you read that judge's report

the easier it is to understand why some people can be persuaded to supporting the death penalty

for certain crimes make no mistake we are flesh and blood we balk at this but I don't balk at it more because he's brown

and that I think is part of what they want isn't it

that's why they hated the George Floyd stuff, that's why Stephen Lawrence's murder

went unpunished for so long they just hate the fact that we are being encouraged as a society to

treat people of colour with more dignity than we used to, to treat them differently from how we used to

to treat them differently from how we treat each other. Funny, that

I've got a horrible story for you next, and it ties in with the increasing case

for the government finally doing something about Elon Musk's hideous platform, Twitter

A Labour MP has decided to sue his company over fake sexualized images because don't forget that the Elon Musk makes money or his platform

makes money out of images of child sexual abuse even as he uses his power and his account to

support liars bigots and grifters who claim that they want to protect our women by you know providing a platform for people to publicize events that lead to riots outside repurposed hotels and police stations that it subsequently turns out are attended by serial domestic abusers

Yeah, they're the people that some of these clowns are empowering to protect your women

And actually, here's another one. Here's another one of those people that is insisting that we protect our women

by suggesting that when one of our women is killed, we shouldn't blame men

Counterproductive. And there is a danger that in the debate about this abduction and murder

and more broadly, how safe women are on the streets, all of which is a valid debate

There's a danger we go way too far in our criticism of men and broaden this out from bad people to men as a group

He actually wrote, we must not allow the tragic murder of a young woman turn into attacks on men and attacks on the police

But we absolutely must allow the tragic murder of a young man turn into attacks on anybody the same colour as the killer

and the police. I'll never get bored of this. I know how much it annoys a small element of my audience

but I want you to know what you're voting for. I don't want you to be able to pretend that you don't know

So I'm always going to show it to you, and you're always going to hate me, because what you see is a mirror

You see a reflection. I don't care that he responded to Sarah Everard's murder

in a completely different way from the way he responded to Henry

And I certainly don't want to think about why that might be, because he's feeding me

He's feeding me, and I want more. Why members of the media join in, maybe, as Aliyah has pointed out

isn't such a big mystery as I thought it was at 10 o'clock this morning

After this break, Jess Asato, who is taking legal action against Elon Musk's company

after saying its grok tool helped a user produce fake sexualised pictures of her

will be telling me why she's doing what she's doing. James O'Brien on LBC

It is 10.51 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

Now, you will be aware, if you're kind enough to listen to this programme on anything close to a regular basis

that I removed myself from the sewer that is Twitter some time ago

some years ago, in fact. I was quite an early adopter of that decision. And I thought it would be difficult because I built up a huge following over the years, but it was surprisingly easy

And it was as a consequence of Elon Musk's ownership and what he was doing to the site

So I'm not entirely aware of just how disgusting it has become until either you tell me or some people, not always helpfully, clip things from there and put it on my other platforms

But some stories just stop you in your tracks. And the story of an MP, an elected British member of Parliament, feeling that she has little choice but to take legal action against Elon Musk's company because of fake sexualised images of her being both created and disseminated

Sounds like something out of a rather poor dystopian novel, but it isn't

It's the lived experience of Jess Asato, who joins me now. I suppose, Jess, and I don't really want to, I have to ask by what exactly was done

Thank you. This is an issue that's affected many, many thousands of women and, disgustingly, children

which I spoke up as an MP about in January, when it became very clear that millions of images were being uploaded without consent

and non-consensual sexualized imagery was being created through Grok by users. As a result, I then became the target

and Grok created images of me in a bikini. But people ask Grok, let's work on the presumption that I'm a complete idiot, Jess

which should be easy to do. People have to ask Grok to do this. That's right

So Grok was integrated with the X platform. So you could just at Grok and say, at Grok, put this woman in a bikini and it would just create the image

And what many users did then, of course, was it was share that image back with the person whose picture had been taken without consent and manipulated

And that's what happened to me. I then went on the BBC to say that this had been happening to me

and somebody created a video of me being surrounded by a group of men

I was chloroformed, I fainted, and then my skirts were lifted up as if to prepare for a sexual assault

Obviously, I'm sorry that you've had to go through this. What recourse did you discover that you had when that happened

or perhaps even when the first activities happened? What did you discover

because, you know, many people listening would think, well, there's a button you can press or a number you can call

and it would be taken down immediately and apologies and the people responsible would be punished

And Twitter was a bit like that in the old days, but I don't think it's like that now

That is not what happened. I did report as many of these pictures that I could

but X did not take them down And so a friend suggested that I contact a lawyer to ask whether they might be able to do that for me

And yes, it did turn out that a lawyer's letter did work and they did then eventually take these down

But in the process, my lawyer said, you know, we think that you actually might have a case

Would you like to look at it? And because I had been inundated by many, many women getting in touch with me, telling me about their experiences

some of which are much, much worse than mine. We're talking about real deepfake pornography

I thought, well, maybe we could make this work. Maybe we could see if under our current law

we do have rights to privacy and data protection. And let's see whether we can actually hold these organisations to account

Because at the moment, they act with impunity. Because, of course, Elon Musk is the richest man in the world

So who could take him on legally, particularly where we're at the frontiers, I guess, of AI and technology

And it felt to me I wanted to bring voice to those women and indeed families of children whose images has been manipulated into sexual imagery too

And that's why I've taken this case. They said that they dealt with it a few months ago, didn't they

They said it was going to change the system to allow only paying customers to produce

such imagery, which is quite an extraordinary response to some of the things that you've described

And then later they claimed that they'd entirely stopped Grock from editing pictures of real

people to show them in revealing clothes. Do you know whether or not that's true? I don think we do entirely know that true but they certainly can still create bikini pictures because they not considered to be intimate imagery We know that they can still create things like bullet holes in women bruising

You know, you can take anybody's picture and manipulate it in a violent way and in a misogynistic way

and I've already received, since I've launched my case, many pictures of me in a bikini

I don't know whether they've been created by Grok. I've not had the time to do that investigation

But I think the other part of this is because it's integrated with social media

unlike some of the other AI platforms, this material can spread so quickly

and it becomes almost like a game for some men who seem to think that they're entitled

to do this to women that they've never met. And I think it's important that as a society

we have a conversation about whether this is the sort of world

that we want to live in, because nobody would be able to walk up to me in a street

strip me off and put me in a bikini. But somehow it's become normalized

That's just fair game online. And we do need some sort of new kind of boundaries

to protect women and children, because of course the end result of this is that women will start to leave these platforms and I

absolutely understand why many women have left X. You said that you did it early on because nobody

wants to end up finding out that their image, possibly their professional profile image or just

you know just ordinary person who wants to follow what's going on and suddenly

their face is part of deepfake pornography. This is not right and we need to stop it

Do you think the government should still be on that, using it as a platform to reach the public

even as the owner does his level best to create civil war in this country

and does nothing as events like the ones you've been subjected to unfold

Often, of course, in the lives of people who don't have recourse to the law

and couldn't even afford to send a legal letter, never mind pursue a case like yours

or indeed like the case being pursued by the mother of one of Elon Musk's children in New York State

Ashley St. Clair, who also alleges explicit images were generated of her

including one in which she was underage. I mean, it struck me for some time, Jess

that the government should have been off that platform ages ago. That's an issue for the government in relation to my..

No, I won't press you on that. In relation to me, I am still on it. And the reason I'm still on it is because I do not want to be pushed out

I am an elected representative and it is important to me that my constituents, wherever they choose to go, can contact me on platforms that are available to them

I'd prefer not to be on it. I'll be honest with you

But I think actually there's a principle here of my own freedom of speech that I shouldn't have to be so fearful that people will manipulate my image into something that is misogynistic

We're not talking about parody here. We're not talking about satire. Of course, public figures, you know, there's a higher threshold for images that should be created of us

I totally get that. And what I'm talking about is the dedicated use of this technology, AI technology, to demean and humiliate and degrade and thereby silence women because we simply cannot put up with it day after day

And I do know that many of my colleagues have come off X and I do not

That's absolutely the right thing for them to do. For me personally, I'm staying on it because I'm sort of doing it as a protest almost, which is I shouldn't be pushed off these platforms

No, I understand that. Do we have any idea of how this case is going to unfold? Do we know what the next chapter is in the story

So, you know, I don't know the legal niceties, I'm afraid. and that's in the hands of my lawyers um i will obviously be up to um xai and the steps that they

decide to take um civil cases can take quite a long time in the court so i'm prepared for this

to be part of the long haul in the time being i am hoping that more victims will come forward

who've had their images manipulated by guac you described an example of what's happening in the

US, but we know there are thousands of women, and indeed sadly some children, whose images

were manipulated in that period of December, January. And either I want them to sort of

seek help from the legal team to get those images taken down, or potentially to join

the legal case if they feel they're able to. Is there anywhere people can go to find out more about it

Yes, there is a page on AWO, which is the solicitor's website, where they can look at the detail and email through

Well, I shall provide a link to that on my social media, Jess, although obviously not on X or Twitter

But I completely respect your reasons for still being there. Jess Asato, the Labour MP for Lower Staff

And as she points out, it's not her job to regulate this stuff, it's her bosses. Elon Musk is essentially a malign foreign actor

trying to interfere in British democracy on the one hand and then on the other hand

he is the owner of technology that allows hideous things like that to happen

and on the other hand, if you would allow three hands in this case the platform last night was publishing details, names

even addresses of people claimed to be the police officers responsible for the

treatment of Henry Novak on the night that he died and they got the wrong people, which makes it awful

But even if they'd got the right people, it would have been awful. And I don't imagine that that leads to any sanction

In fact, I don't know, but I would not be staggered into silence

perish the thought, if the people disseminating that stuff get financially rewarded by the way that that platform now works

even as they endanger all people involved, would be completely innocent, including the police officers that were there that night

But police officers who had absolutely nothing to do with it, ex-police officers who had absolutely nothing to do with it

It's a few quid to be made from painting targets on their doors and indeed on their backs

So whose job is it to stop them? It's 11.03. James O'Brien on LBC

Minutes after 11 is the time. I don't know what the word is. I don't think it's ironic

but it is notable that while the world rages about claims that police receive anti-racism training

that somehow makes them racist. Yeah, me neither. But as the world rages about police receiving anti-racism training that somehow makes them racist

it is reported today that all NHS staff will have anti-racist training, even more than they have already

They will have content on anti-Semitism and anti-Muslim hostility worked into the mandatory equality, diversity and human rights training that they already receive

I'd be interested to watch a needle of people's consciousness or conscience

the people who are furious about the police receiving anti training and somehow persuading themselves that it made them racist against white people and to see where that needle is what do you feel about the police

receiving anti-racism training and then revealing that nhs staff are to have anti-semitism training

does the needle go even higher i mean what that's outrageous that's going to make everybody biased

against people who aren't Jewish or people who aren't Muslim. You see the madness that we're caught up in now

when you allow people like Nigel Farage to speak unchallenged and to make their points

without being reminded of the last time they made the polar opposite point

You end up in an absolute mess. An absolute mess. All NHS staffs have anti-Semitism training

Good. All police have anti-racism training. It's turning them all racist. I'm not exaggerating, am I

This is insane. that these stories would be around on the same day

You can see why most newspapers have elected to ignore that element of Lord Mann's report and focus instead upon badges

And I'm going to focus on badges as well, because I think it's a really interesting issue

But I'm not going to focus on the badges until we have established how insane it is

that the world is going mad about the idea of the police receiving anti-racism training

which, by the way, is inadequate and ineffective, according to almost all of the independent assessments

and the same bits of the world that are going mad, will, I suspect, in the spirit of a stopped clock

they will rightly welcome news that NHS staff are to receive antisemitism training and content on anti-Muslim hostility

Trust chief executives and chairman will also be required to complete anti-racism training

specifically including antisemitism within the next six months. Do you think the people that put the Daily Telegraph together

realise, as they're pasting the pages, how mad it is to have anti-racism training

being the worst thing imaginable in the world on page 14 and anti-racism training being wonderful and overdue in the NHS

Do you think they even notice how mad this is? How insulting it is to their readers to think that they're too stupid

Well, no. How correctly they preempt the sensibilities of their readers by presuming that they're too stupid to notice the contradiction

Ah, it's incredible. Anti-racism training is a good thing. obviously because racism is a bad thing the only people who've got a problem with anti-racism

training are people who think racism is a good thing which is why nigel farish can't keep his

grubby little fingers out of stories like this but has absolutely nothing to say about the murder

of sarah everard except why can't we all just calm down and please don't blame men for the actions of

that man but blame all immigrants for the action of that man over there who's not an immigrant but

looks like he might be but i want to have a slightly different phone in now with your help

I actually like the conversation about badges and I like the suggestion that NHS staff

will not be allowed to wear any. So I don't know whether it's helpful for the BBC

to open their reporting with Palestinian badges. I suspect it's a reasonable position to adopt

because I suspect that at the moment symbols demonstrating solidarity with Palestinian people

are more commonplace and more prevalent in hospitals than any other expressions of support or allegiance

And I don't think, unless, well, listen, the first thing that you may want to try to do

is persuade me that the pro-Palestinian badge should be treated differently from all badges

because this is not a phone-in about pro-Palestinian symbols. This is a phone-in about expressions of support

or badges of allegiance. and I would include in that not just political causes

but also religious causes. Do you know, very, very early on and I wish I'd clocked at the time

how significant it was, two stories come back and sort of slap me around the back of the head

on a regular basis. One of them I did spot pretty early

that it was pointing a finger to the road ahead. That was Winterville in Birmingham

I looked into it when I was writing my first book How to be Right and

I couldn't quite believe the facts could be so at odds with the coverage

with the reports up to and including I think the Archbishop of Birmingham

so there was this council worker there was a bloke who worked for the council in Birmingham

in I think the early 80s I name him in the book in a happy way

and say god blimey I bet he didn't have any idea what he was unleashing when he worked out that Birmingham Council could save a ton of money

if they didn't take down the lights in between festivals. So I can't remember what they were celebrating

Salivating? Celebrating. It was the other lot that were salivating. So Christmas was up there

I think Diwali was up there. Eid wouldn't have been up there, would it? But there were various festivals that were all coming around the same time

time and in Birmingham they used to take the kind of celebrations down and then put them up again

and this bloke worked out they could save quite a lot of money by just leaving them up for the

duration and obviously if you're leaving them up for the duration of a say a three-month period

then you can't call it Christmas if they're going up in October and any more than you could well you

You don't need me to explain how months work, although the right-wing media at the time did

because they called it Winterville, so it would cover the entire period

that the lights were on the lampposts. God, they were happier times, weren't they

when we had lights on lampposts instead of tatty nylon flags that had been put up by racists

Anyway, everyone went mad. Everyone claimed they were abolishing Christmas and that you can't say happy Christmas in this country anymore

without being arrested, and that was 20, 30, 40 years, 30 years ago

Anyway, early doors. And I spotted quite early on in this job

that that was pointing the way that today leads us all the way to the horrible murder that we've been discussing all week

Well, rather, the media reaction to it. Tell someone that Christmas has been cancelled

and you can be fairly confident they won't bother to check before they start shouting

And that happened and still gets referred to. I still see it every now and again

it's an insane story. The truth is out there, as they used to say on the X-Files

And I know that because I bloody wrote it. The truth is out there. And yet, every now and then, you'll still see a story saying

oh, it's just like Winterville, or this madness started in Birmingham in 19-something-something

And the other story that I... I don't think it was quite as significant a signpost

regarding the direction of coming traffic. But the other story was about a woman who worked for British Airways

and she wore a cross around her neck. And British Airways had a rule in place

that you weren't allowed to wear anything around your neck. I think the rule, and I could be wrong

but if I remember rightly, I think the rule was that you couldn't wear any jewellery at all

Maybe a wedding ring, I don't know, but there were, you know, various issues. And that was the rule

You couldn't wear any jewellery at all. And this woman, with the support, no doubt

of a think tank or an organisation. This woman decided to take British Airways to tribunal

because they had told her that she couldn't wear her cross around her neck

And the imposition of a rule designed to prohibit health workers from wearing jewellery

became in the hands of the people that are currently claiming that two-tier policing exists in this country

but favours people of colour. That case became an attack upon Christianity

Christianity. I mean, if you think that's mad, you should wait and see what happened when they

tried to change scales so that they would have kilograms and pounds on them. I'm not even

exaggerating. Same people, same media, same outlets, same individuals. So everybody went mad about this

attack on Christianity, which was in fact a prohibition of jewellery on health workers

And unless you can persuade me otherwise, I think this story is the same

I don't think that it is a great affront to NHS staff

to tell them that they can't wear pro-Palestinian symbols any more than it would be an affront to anybody else

to tell them that they can't wear, I suppose, an Israeli flag perhaps

would be the most obvious direct parallel, but lots of other badges as well

I don't think when you go to the NHS, your religion or your political opinions

should be visible to the person that you are treating. For the very simple..

I don't mean obviously, I don't think you should be allowed to wear a swastika either. For the very simple reason that they may upset me

now it doesn't matter we don't get to sit here and say yeah but that one shouldn't be upsetting

and that one shouldn't and that one should be and that one shouldn't and that one is and that one isn't that a plural a pluralistic society a properly diverse society sees people living

alongside each other who can furiously disagree on things without actually coming to blows

or attacking each other and and while i think that solidarity with palestinian people is

pretty much the only moral course to take in the current context in the Middle East

as well as, in my case, believing wholeheartedly in the, not just the necessity

but the justification of the existence of the modern state of Israel, I don't think anybody gets a free pass on this

Some Jewish people see the Palestinian flag as a support for Hamas

which, of course, it isn't. But if a Jewish person sees it like that, then they're going to be disturbed and they're going to be upset

I just think that the rule here should be nobody wears any form of insignia, whether political or religious, in the NHS

So if you really want to dig into it, some religious beliefs are..

You see, the thing about the rainbow badge is that I don't think that's political. I just think that's humanitarian

And now you're going to tell me, of course, that a Palestinian badge is also humanitarian

which is why it's going to be an interesting phone-in. Because right now, I don't think there should be a debate about which cause is just and which cause is not

I think it should be a debate about whether or not you get to tell patients

who may not like your political beliefs what your political beliefs are

And one of the saddest discoveries of the last few years is the difficulty that many people have

in condemning genocide in Gaza because they are so fearful for the future of Jewish people

and Israel is the place where Jewish people go when it all starts happening again

And so the difficulty and the failure of being able to ride both of those horses

which is easy for someone like me with no personal skin in the game, is close to impossible for many people who see Israel as the place of sanctuary for Jewish people

next time a political figure decides to scapegoat them for the problems of an entire nation

And because that emotional connection is so strong, as with a family member

you can't really concede wrongdoing or you can't really accept that if they're doing it to protect you and yours

then they can't possibly be doing anything wrong. and I think it's a tragic scenario

that that position has been exploited by self-serving politicians in Israel and in the United States of America

If you want to get an indication of how toxic everything's become, Donald Trump was reportedly on the phone to Benjamin Netanyahu this week

telling him that everybody hates Israel, something that would have, of course, seen almost anybody else in the world

decried as anti-Semitic if it got out that they'd been shouting that down the phone

in a private telephone conversation. So the context of much of this conversation is bonkers

But it doesn't seem to me to be bonkers to simply suggest

that NHS staff should be barred from wearing political badges on their uniforms

And I guess I've already spotted a flaw in this, haven't I

Because if you're homophobic, tough. I mean, it's a bit like the things you can't help wearing

isn't it like your skin if you're racist and you're getting treated by a brown nurse tough

and if you are racist to the brown nurse then uh or of course if you've been on diversity training

and you now hate white people uh and you don't want to be treated by a white doctor i'm joking

if you're just tuning in i presume that's obvious but that's where we are now in brexit britain

you've been on diversity training and now you hate white people fantastic um i well there you go i

told you it was a good phone-in. I'm not 100% clear that it is quite as clear as I thought it was

when I started talking. Should NHS staff be barred from wearing political badges

including symbols expressing solidarity with Palestinian people? My answer to the question

is that you should be banned from wearing anything that is a

political insignia or an expression of political opinion. 0345 6060 6060 973 is the number you need

Or, I suppose the alternative is, and it's a valid question, should we let everybody wear everything

What would the problem be? Hit the numbers now, you will get through

NHS staff could be barred from wearing political badges on their uniforms

such as pro-Palestinian symbols, as part of proposals to help tackle anti-Semitism

What do you think? Do you welcome that? Is it a good idea, or can you see problems that I have currently missed

It's 11.22. James O'Brien on LBC 11.24 and I think I may have misjudged this one

looking at my inbox, there are some examples coming in that rather drive

a coach and horses through the idea that it would be both desirable and straightforward

to ban all NHS staff from wearing political badges, and do you know what

the problem is? You probably saw it before I did who gets to define what political

means? Who gets to define what political is? Because I can I already mentioned rainbow lanyards and rainbow badges expressing solidarity with LGBTQ plus people who have of course been discriminated against in our society up to and including imprisonment in living memory

You want to ban that as well? I mean, do we ban them all? Jamil is in Acts Minister. Jamil, what would you like to say

Hi James, I agree with you. Well hang on, I'm in the middle of changing my mind. Quick, quick, agree with me before I do

So my background is I'm a radiographer. My background, I currently work in the industry side of things

but I worked in the NHS. And I think one way you can go look at this

is an infection control perspective. If you go into work... We lost the line there

An infection control perspective. If you go into work, you've got to wear nothing below your elbows

You can only wear a wedding ring. You've got clean scrubs every day if you're wearing scrubs

you've got to wear a clean uniform, but using the same badge again and again and again

So regardless of whether it's for Palestine or political or anything, I don't think that there should be anything on you

apart from potentially your name badge. And would that apply on the wards as well

not just in operating theatres and the like? Because you're still dealing with patients

and moving from one patient to another. so I think there's an argument from an infection control perspective there

apart from anything else and I'm somebody who is very much being involved with humanitarian aid with Ukraine

and I'm very anti, shall we put this in a different way

anti-genocide and take part weekly in a vigil to promote what's going on in Palestine for the Palestinian people

but I would be completely against wearing any badges Entirely on infectious ground

Not entirely, but yes, I think that's the main thing for me. And then it's about, you know, you want your patient to be comfortable

When you're seeing a patient, you don't want them to be, you know

reading all sorts of things into what your badge is. Because I think that's more interesting

Because I could sterilise all the badges. I could have a rule in place that you have to put them through a steamer

or whatever it is before you put it. I'm being a little bit pedantic, but it's negotiable, I think, that point

What's not negotiable is that nothing political should be permitted, not just nothing metal or nothing worn or nothing below the elbow

Do you see what I mean? I think the other thing is that when you talk about the religious aspect

of wearing religious jewellery badges, that comes quite difficult because if you say, right, nobody can wear crosses or little crucifixes

or words in Arabic, Allah or whatever. So, yeah, you get rid of all that

But then what do you do when it comes to Muslim female doctors wearing hijab

Yeah, or a Sikh doctor wearing a turban or a Jewish doctor wearing a yarmulke

I see. Well, I suppose my answer to that would be, are other members of staff allowed to, I mean, could I go in in a bowler hat

If a Sikh can go in in a turban, then can I go in in a bowler hat? And if the answer to that is no, then you've got a problem

And I'm a little bit reluctant to bring turbans into it because I think Sikhs are going to be having an absolutely terrible time

out in Nigel's Britain, and I'm sure you are as well, Jameel

but it is a valid point, and it is an obvious example of what you're describing

But it's not like a cross. I suppose this is where the debate went last time

So there's no religious requirement to wear a cross. No, true. So it doesn't quite work, and it's an infection risk

Yeah. I think I'd quite like to see more doctors in bowler hats, actually. Finally, something on which the whole world can agree

Bring back the bowler. Thank you, Jamil, and thank you for the work that you do. I'll just crack on with the news, actually

because there's only a minute left, and I don't want to squeeze my next caller into the space available

What tattoos are tricky, aren't they? I mean, what if you just get it tattooed on your forehead

your support for Palestine? I mean, you wouldn't be able to rule

Why are you all so... You're being cleverer than me. today. I like this topic

I suppose I did all the heavy lifting in the first hour. People are mentioning poppies

Irish footballers sometimes object to the poppy or certainly refuse to wear, decline to wear the poppy

because it's a symbol that carries a very different weight in countries that

have been oppressed and colonised by British troops like the Republic, well like the island

of Ireland has. It's just a small part of it where arguably it's still going on

So you've got poppies, you've got rainbows. I mean if you're doing it entirely

on infectious grounds and everything has to be removed from it. 29 minutes after

11 is the time. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Dominic Ellis is here now with

the headlines. James O'Brien on LBC. 11.32 is the time. You're listening to James O'Brien

on LBC. Mystery on the way, of course, in 28 minutes. Just a quick one from Idiot's Corner. This is from David

I am so sick of you ranting on about Farage, and he is not there to answer your

personal attacks. I bet you haven't got the bleeps or courage to invite him onto your show and have an

honest debate. Mate, seriously, tell him. Any time at all. In fact, go on YouTube

Have a look at what happened last time. It was 12 years ago, David, and I still haven't had the

return fixture. I accepted his challenge to have a debate on my

own radio show. I let him in. Do you know what happened? He got dragged out by his own

communications officer because it was going so well, David. That's what happens in the media when the

grown-ups are playing. Things go really, really well, and your PR man comes into the studio

and insists that the interview end immediately. So, look, I know I'm wasting my breath

because even though he will never have the guts to come into this studio ever, and you can see on YouTube exactly what happened when he did

it won't change your confidence, will it, that somehow I'm the coward here

and he's the big man, telling people not to overreact to the murder of Sarah Everard

while insisting that they overreact in the worst imaginable ways to the murder of..

Henry Novak. Have a lovely day, David. Michael's in Greenwich. Michael, badges in the... It's a bit

off-piece for you. You normally ring me on matters of great international import

but this is, nonetheless, a fascinating question. Oh, and I've lost him

after that introduction. I've probably bored him to death. Ellen is in Nottingham. Ellen, what would you like to say

about this? Hi, James. Thanks for talking about this this morning. Likewise. I just

wanted to... There's a couple of things, if I've got time, one to raise, but the main thing I wanted to talk about

because I don't think anyone else will, is that technically union symbols come under political symbols

And they haven't just talked about badges. They're talking about any symbolism at all

So, you know, lanyards, you know, embossed shirts, anything that has a symbol will potentially be banned under this

And I'm a member of working NHS. I'm part of a union

And a large part of what we do is obviously organising at work. So people showing that they're part of the union or supporting a union

and that making people feel more confident to join and stand up for themselves

And if the NHS is deciding what's banned, it's completely in their interest to ban union symbols

because why would they want us to organise? Why would they want us to fight back? Are we looking at a baby bathwater scenario here

So even if I could persuade that person over there that this badge shouldn be worn by people for this reason and indeed all these badges shouldn be worn by these people for all of these reasons That one should be worn and therefore you can have a ban on badges

Well, no, I think it's just, if we're talking about the situation, I think there are certain things that, yeah, probably should be banned

and probably should be, you know, considered... But this is the problem I have, is that as soon as you establish dispensations

the clamour for a dispensation goes up from everybody, with every badge

so how you know where are they going to draw the line how are they going to decide if we say

oh yes we agree with this because it's going to offend some people well people are offended by

unions acting and strikes is that not going to offend people people are offended as you said by

rainbows people are offended by certain charities being supported how do we decide what's offensive

to our patient group and how do we decide what's morally acceptable where do we draw that line

I was hoping you'd answer those questions, but obviously neither of us can

and that's a reason not to do it, I suspect. It's too individual

Yeah, I think you might be right. And also, you know, let's not ignore one of the most troubling elements about all of this

which is that support for Palestinian people, or solidarity with Palestinian people

or even opposition to the activities of the current Israeli regime in Gaza and Lebanon and beyond

is not anti-Semitism. However hard Benjamin Netanyahu tries to pretend that it is

or however often he claims that he's acting on behalf of all Jewish people

he isn't, and it isn't. So why on earth would anybody have to take off a badge

demonstrating solidarity with the Palestinian people because some poor souls have been persuaded

that that's somehow an expression of hating Jews? It seems almost as if you're capitulating to propaganda and to lies

I don't know. And certainly to unhealthy conflations. Michael is in Greenwich. Michael, what would you like to say

Well, some of what I was going to say has been said, but my concern is that countering anti-Semitism

I don't think the answer is to teach people to understand more about Judaism

no more than the answer to Islamophobia is to teach people more about Islam

or homophobia is to teach more about people who are LBGBT. It's a question of, I think, teach people

what are the underlying emotional causes that create this? The anger, the hatred

If you confront intolerance and young people learn to identify where that comes from within themselves

then no matter what dog whistle is used it won't be very effective because people say oh wait a

minute they're just trying to get me angry at somebody else and you could fill in the blank

on who this somebody else is for sure but i think it's it's a fundamental mistake that we're making

that we think to teach tolerance you have to have a greater understanding of the target population

No, you need a better understanding of what it is within me that would respond to that call

Because ultimately, they're old people. You know, people say, well, I should be more tolerant of black people or Jewish people

No, we should be more tolerant of people. I always think of this woman who walks down the street going, I don't see anybody that looks like me just because she can't see people. Yeah

I mean, I walk down the street and there aren't, the whole street isn't populated by older white guys

who are 5'10 and slightly overweight. You know, and have, I mean, no, nobody looks like me

Nobody looks like me, and thank God. And nobody looks like anybody else. This could have been a contribution to the last hour of the program

couldn't it, in some ways? Yeah, I just, this is what always, I mean

these are the things I think about. What is it in us that we keep making these distinctions

What does melatonin really have to do with anything? Well, I mean, you know I agree with you

but in the context of badges, there's a slightly different equation than there is with melatonin or skin color

So under your ysis, what you would say to someone who was troubled by a pro-Palestinian badge

is why are you troubled by someone showing solidarity with a population that is currently being bombed

bombed into quasi-oblivion. Well, I also would say, what is it about a symbol

I mean, I'll give you a pretty dramatic example of free speech

The American Nazi Party applied for a petition to march through Skokie, Illinois, a suburb of Chicago

That was primarily Jewish. This is a good 30, 40 years ago

when there were still a number of Holocaust survivors in that neighborhood. Good grief

Well, they applied for the permit. the permit was denied the aclu sued on their behalf saying this is free speech

and they got the right to march and they marched and people counter protested and it was peaceful

and people talked about it and people condemned the nazis for it so i think you have we have to

be able to accept that someone wearing a palestinian flag is no threat no more than if someone wears

the Star of David, or they wear a cross, or they wear a labor badge, you know, a union badge

I think you're swinging me. So it is all or nothing, though, because the danger comes in

defining what is a political symbol and what isn't. And one person says it is, and one person

says it isn't. Who gets to sit in judgment? No, I think the question is, what actually is dangerous

Yes. Is speech dangerous? I don't think so. You know, and the only thing I would add to this

which is really related to the earlier conversation, there should be no anonymity online

Yeah, I mean, you're covering a lot of... I'd agree with that as well, although some people..

No, some people point out that they might be whistleblowers or they might be, you know

drawing attention to egregious activities anonymously, and online is a wonderful way to do it

and retain their anonymity. But yeah, I'm going to correct you on one thing. It's melanin, not melatonin

Ah, thanks. Melatonin is... No, thanks for the correction. You're very welcome

I'm the radio equivalent of melatonin. That's the thing that sends you to sleep. Melanin is the thing that influences

your pigmentation, of course. Top man. Thank you, Michael. So it is..

If a Palestinian symbol upsets you, you'd have to explain why and in the

or if a Star of David upsets you you'd have to explain why or even an Israeli flag of course

which refers to the nation not the current regime or even if you're a fan of the current regime

and you wear an Israeli flag the other person has to explain why will it compromise treatment

is it a compromise of freedom? and if it's political who says it's political

Farrah is in Southfields Farrah what would you like to say? Hi James can I just say thank you so much

for interviewing Aziz and Mao's last week. Wasn't that lovely? I bought the ticket and

I saw them the next day and met them and listened and it was so uplifting, which is a rarity

in today's political landscape. Okay, so I don't think, I've called you before, I'm

very much on you know standing in solidarity with the Palestinians and trying to get this piece through as well and I actually don think doctors should be wearing political symbols

I'm not sure about the union ones but the political symbols because I do think it can

make patients feel uncomfortable. I was in hospital a couple of days ago, I was very stressed out

they thought I had a stroke, it was actually a migraine, it was a big drama but while I was

sitting in the waiting room, there was a nurse who was looking at me

and she was looking at me in a way that I recognize when people look at me

and feel uncomfortable. Really? And I had a Palestinian bracelet. I always had it on, on my wrist

And I took it off and I put it in my pocket. And the reason I took it off is that

I actually was worried that if anybody saw me with this symbol

maybe, and this is so unfair on doctors because I've never experienced it

But in this particular political climate, with that topic, I may not be listened to, or perhaps I would be treated differently

Because doctors are humans. Why do you think the person was looking at you askance? Sorry

She just kept looking at me, and then looking actually at my wrist

Oh, I see. Oh, okay, no, I didn't get that bit. I didn't get that bit. Yeah, she's looking at the bracelet. And when people sort of look at that, often it's like, in solidarity

They'll smile at you or, you know, there'll be some sort of affirmation

Yes, but the opposite can be true as well. Exactly. So I don't think they should wear political badges

but I do think they should be allowed to wear religious symbols

When I see a Star of David or a cross, I have to say it makes me feel a lot better

because I feel a connection because I'm a Muslim and the Abrahamic

and I also think it shows diversity in the workplace, in the NHS

and I think it's quite a welcoming thing I don't think it's a divisive thing

and I think if you're the sort of person who's proud to, so religious

that you want to show your beliefs I don't think there's anything wrong in that

Is it to the point of dispensation though, Farrah? So if you're not allowed to wear any other jewellery

should you be allowed to wear a necklace with a cross on it And if you're not allowed to wear any other badges

should you be allowed to wear a badge with the Star of David on it

I think if it's a badge and... Oh, gosh, you've got me on that one

Yeah, it's the thing that gets me as well. And then we bring in Jamil's point earlier about infection control

which is, you know, not a red herring. It might be a navigable objection

But if the reason why you're not allowed to wear... It was British Airways, to be honest, not the NHS

the first time I dipped my toe into this conversation, but the rule was no one can wear jewellery

particularly necklaces, in case you're leaning over the baggage rail and it gets caught up and you get dragged around like Mr Bean

But the point stands, whether it's a crucifix or a cross on the end of that chain or not

you're not allowed to wear chains. So no one's allowed to wear chains. I don't think you should wear..

Well, then, on that case, don't wear anything. Well, then you can't wear the religious. So if you're not allowed to wear any..

Take it off. Yeah. You know, take it off. you know, if it's, you know, something like infection control

or you're going to drop your wedding ring inside some poor person

you're, then... You can't perish the thought. You wouldn't be able to go through airport security barriers

would you, without setting the whole thing off? Exactly. Are we confident that we can easily navigate

the difference between a religion and a political position? I think if you're wearing an Israeli flag, for example..

Sorry, my dog's barking. No, no, that's all right. I'll let you go

And I'll just, because I was going to be completely 1980s phone-in host at that point

and go, oh, what about a Satanist? Should a Satanist be allowed to wear

the mark of the beast while working in the NHS? If you've just tuned in

you probably should rewind a bit to get a little bit of context there. I'm not quite that guy

It's 11.46. James O'Brien on LBC. It is 11.50. and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

Just a reference to the conversation in the first hour of the programme

There's a rather beautiful piece on the LBC website at the moment by Claudia Vince

who was a survivor of the Fishmongers Hall attack, as it has become known

And she witnessed her friend, Jack Merritt, who died that day. She witnessed attempts to turn that murder

into a political moment and also witnessed Jack's father's refusal to let it become one

pointing out that Jack himself would have become livid at his death being used to advance political agendas

And she's written incredibly powerfully and very helpfully about exactly where the lines and the parameters should be

at a time when, of course, just as in the past, Lee Rigby's family have been ignored

and this week Henry Novak's family have been completely ignored, and Alice Gross's family were completely ignored

when she was murdered in my neck of the woods not long ago

That horrible practice that many, many members of the media and many politicians engage in

But Claudia has written her best account. I've read of essentially why, in this case

Henry Novak's family deserve better. So I do heartily, heartily and heavily recommend that

11.51 is the time. Back to the question of whether Satanists should be able to wear badges in the NHS

That's a joke. Whether or not all badges displaying political affiliations, but not necessarily religious ones, should be banned

or NHS staff should be banned from wearing. Holly's in Camden. Holly, what would you like to say

Hi, James. Hello, Holly. I was going to come at it from the point of view of badges and mental health

Could I just quickly comment on the trade union? Yeah, of course you can

Yeah, because most of the larger unions like the LCN, Unite, Unison

will have legal recognition agreements with employers. So, by that way, the employer's basically

sort of recognizing, agreeing with the union. So, that may be something that will factor in

if you've got a union badge. That's a good point. In terms of mental health

Obviously, we still have some of the same infection prevention risks, but we also need to work on that degree of risk assessment as well

You know, inpatient community might be slightly different. You talked about poppies earlier

I would not wear a poppy with a pin on an inpatient board. No, of course you wouldn't

If I was going to be a community patient, I may wear a poppy on my coat

You know, and as well, that would come down to knowing your patient, knowing your patient's history

You know, if somebody had served, then it might be very appropriate to wear a poppy

Yeah, I mean, but equally, if all political symbols are banned, then the poppy would be on the list, wouldn't it

Well, exactly, and this is where it gets really difficult. I would say, certainly for in-patient mental health, I would agree, because one of your basic, apart from sort of..

This is medication. One of your basic treatment things is forming that trusting therapeutic relationship

And that could be hard to do if you're advertising the fact that you hold an opinion that your patient might be diametrically or passionately opposed

Or even if they're not normally, people's belief systems can change when they're unwell

They can be quite extreme when they're unwell. So I would always say I personally would want to be on the surface

blank canvas to my patients until I get to know them, they get to know me

We have that relationship. It's nicely put. We know what we can have that conversation about

Beautifully put. And absolutely, I can't find a single thing to dispute in what you've said

Well, thank you very much. I said accept then. You jumped in

I've run you. You jumped in just as I was saying accept that. I know I'm going to ruin it now

but no, I'm not going to ruin it now because I just wondered whether it would be particular to your branch of medicine

these arguments are obviously applicable in the context of mental health not necessarily if I'm going in to have my bunions done

I don't know but you don't know, do you? you don't know you haven't got time plastered on your head

saying, oh by the way I have mental health difficulties I... no, you're right

I was talking about it when I was waiting, and I think, you know

we just can't make assumptions about everybody. And, you know, I'm a human with a personality

but I also think I should be a blank canvas as a professional. Yeah, and of course, in some ways, I suppose Farrah's point

was that she, as a patient, should be a blank canvas as well, because she was worried that perhaps what she was wearing

might have engendered a slightly negative response in one of the people she encountered last time she was in hospital

What a lovely call. Thank you, Holly. I've got an idiot's corner. Good Lord, who'd have thought in this one

interesting how you cut off Farah just as she was about to share her thoughts on the Israeli flag

Yes. Farah announced that her dog was barking and therefore she had sort of lost her thread

in the point that she was making at the moment. Well, clearly, for anybody with four brain cells

she was pointing out that the Star of David is a religious symbol

which she would be comfortable with, while the Israeli flag is a political symbol

which she would not. I'm happy to explain that to you, because obviously your point comes from the fact

or comes from the position of believing that I am some sort of shill for the Israeli government

And it's nice to be reminded that you're still out there. You irredeemable flump

Alison is in Crawley. Alison, what would you like to say? Oh, hi, James

I totally agree with your last caller. I trained as a nurse in 1977

I'm retired now. and back then we were absolutely not allowed to wear anything whatsoever on our uniforms other

than our name badge and our hospital a qualification if you like is a sort of you know and that was

absolutely it and you weren't allowed to wear your uniform and my goodness you'd have been

sacked for wearing your uniform to a march and the point about it it isn't about making judgments

and why it should be absolute like this is because when patients come into hospital

you know, they're in all sorts of states. They're incredibly vulnerable. They can be anxious

They can be terrified, you know, and so on and so forth. They really don't need to be having any kind of even thought process

around the conversations that you have had with various people this morning

Nobody needs that on top of dealing with their diagnosis and their health

You don't even need to have to think, gosh, what does that badge mean

Oh, God, I wonder if she'll be all right. And you've got enough worries. It is inappropriate and unprofessional

And it has grown over the years. And I think it's absolutely right for any number of reasons

But I actually think just a blanket ban. You have nothing on your uniform

And what that previous lady, who very rudely, I can't remember her name

But, you know, what she's talking about, a blank canvas, that's exactly what it is

I thought you were calling her rude then, Alison. No. But you were being rude by not being able to remember Holly in Camden's name

Holly in Camden. That's it, exactly. That's all right. My ears pricked up then

I thought, has someone been rude? I didn't notice it. Flipping heck. Sorry, Carriess

No, she's entirely right. It's a great phrase. It's a blank canvas. And it is about mental health

And everybody has mental health, not just patients who are being treated for their mental health

And we need to respect that. And it is not appropriate to have your union badge

or your political allegiance or your gay pride badge. And, you know, I'm someone who is, you know

I would describe myself as extremely liberal and supportive for many of these causes

but that is not the appropriate place to do it. And also, just to add a little bit of stuff

as nurses and doctors and health professionals generally, we treat people without fear or favour

So we will treat people who are racist. And in extreme, in war, you will get nurses treating, you know, casualties from the other side

So casualties who've inflicted wounds on your own soldiers. Because that's what you do professionally

So, you know, just don't stop all this. Nobody has a right to..

We weren't allowed to wear crosses. No. No. And of course just because certain members of the community

could portray that as an attack upon Christianity as long as their audience didn't do any thinking or reading of their own

or of course on this occasion you could claim that this is evidence

of Israeli powers controlling discourse and banning nurses from wearing pro-Palestinian symbols

it doesn't matter how loudly they shout this stuff it won't make it true it's done for the reasons that you and almost all of my callers

have rather brilliantly articulated. It's just not the appropriate place. What about a blue Peter badge

No. What? You monster! You absolute monster! But I take your point

Lovely stuff. Thank you, Alison. The time now is approaching 12 noon. You are listening to James O'Brien

We're doing the thing. I thought we might just hit the 12 noon and I'd go to the news on time, but we all like the thing

because the thing gives me an opportunity. The thing gives me an opportunity to remind you what is coming up next

And sometimes I have to check the date, or at least the day. Thursday is the day

which means it is, God willing, time for Mystery Hour, your weekly opportunity to achieve

the sort of satisfaction not ordinarily available anywhere else on your radio

You notice what I do differently now, Keith? Have you noticed? I don't say dial anymore

It was pointed out to me. It made me sound old and somewhat anachronistic because people don't really have radio

Well done, boomer, says Keith. I don't say dial. It's anywhere on your radio

So it is an opportunity to solve mysteries, to unravel riddles and to undo enigmas

James O'Brien on LBC. Oh, thank goodness for that. Honestly, four minutes after, would you like a couple of tales from the towers

I just have to run around the building at the moment to find a functioning facility

because there so much building work going on I personally think there should be a ban on non using the facilities during these little junctions because that when presenters need them I often to be found fighting Alexander Armstrong and Alec Jones

I was dragging Alec Jones out of the gents, and Alexander Armstrong came around and hit me round the back of the head with a bin

so that he could get in and relieve himself. But I just walked past Classic FM, and goodness me, Alec Jones has got a beautiful speaking voice, hasn't he

I mean, you think of the fella as a singer, don't you? But, oh, man alive, I could listen to him read out the phone book

I really could. Don't, whatever you do, tell him that I said so. Hopefully, he'll be too busy listening to the clip of me

blowing smoke up his fundament that I'll be able to beat him to the laboratory next time. It's time for Mystery Hour

It's a mad building there sometimes. You can be walking around the building

and Jonathan Russell pop by because he's recording his Classic FM programme or doing his podcast down in the bowels of the building

and Aled will be in doing Alexander's Holiday Cover. you give old Ali the wave as you go past

and my lean class will be here. Because we're next to Classic FM and Smooth

so Kate Garroway will often be spotted waiting by the lift. It's a bit like the bar in Star Wars

That's what it's like in this building sometimes. Six minutes after 12 is the time

Shall we get Mystery Hour underway? The way it works is this. Someone rings in with a question

and someone else rings in with an answer. That's it. How do I get five minutes of spiel out of this every week, Keith

That's it. Someone, someone will say, oh yeah, there's a board game. Two, in fact, well, one board game, one travel game

The travel game is in the ten. Two games. How can a lowly radio feature like this dreamt up

so that we wouldn't run the risk of saying anything political by accident

on the day of a by-election? So it was on a Thursday. That's why it's on Thursdays, even though it feels very Friday

How could such a lowly little radio idea have grown into a behemoth

that not only has an online archive beloved by billions, but also has spawned two actual real games

that you can buy with real money. Extraordinary. Anyway, my favourite contributor of the week wins a game

Either the board game or the travel game. It's in a tin

You can find the full terms and conditions for the competition at lbc.co.uk

and you can find out more about the Mystery Hour games, plural, at um

LBC, no, what is it? Mysteryhour.co.uk Mysteryhour.co.uk Do you know why I got distracted there

Thank you. This is actually insane. Will sent me a message in capital letters

when I was going on about all the people that you can pump into as you wander around this building

Will sent me a message in capital letters saying James Focus. Because it was in capital letters, I glanced at it and it

drew my attention. I'm not going to tell you that because otherwise you'll send me all your messages in capital letters

and it'll be like living in Donald Trump's brain. So I got distracted by Will telling me to focus

I forgot to say that you can find out more about the Mystery Hour games, plural, at mysteryhour.co.uk

It's not too soon to start thinking about Christmas. Alright, it is too soon to start thinking about Christmas, but we might sell out at Christmas

So get in there now. And then someone else rings in with the answer, okay

It says on my screen that Steve is in Shrewsbury, but he's currently in Italy. So why have we put that on? Why don't we just say Steve is in Italy

I grant you it's a big place but it's more accurate than Shrewsbury

Steve, question or answer? It's a question, James. Carry on, Steve. Well, I'm in Italy because

Are you? Well, I never. Funny enough, I'm not in Shrewsbury. I'm all the way over in Umbria

Narnia in Umbria. And it's beautiful and hot and gorgeous weather. And I've been hit

well, I'm going to rub it in a bit more now because we had last week a fantastic party

to celebrate. our wedding. Oh, congratulations. Thank you. That happened in Cornwall

just before Christmas. So we just eloped, the two of us, that we had the party over here

Oh, how delightful. It was. It was gorgeous, I have to say

But the question is, during the party, and probably a little bit before

and a little bit after, in fact, probably right now, we've enjoyed an awful lot

of Italian wine, really nice Italian wine. And it's delicious. But in the evenings, and especially at night

the not-so-lovely Italian mosquitoes come along and bite me. Oh. And what I want to know is

if I have a particularly high blood alcohol content, Yes. when the mosquito comes along

and has a little bit of drink of my blood, does the mosquito get drunk too

That's a nice question. And is that why they keep coming back? Well, I think we know the second bit's probably not true

But, I mean, would it be strong enough, do you think, the blood

I mean, imagine a mosquito having a... It depends on the metabolism as well, doesn't it

I have to say it was a very good party. Okay, so you were absolutely stocious

Any Primitivo? I'm quite partial to a bit of Primitivo. No, it was a bit of everything, I think

Right, you're on. So, with a mosquito... I discovered cocktails for the first time

Did you really? I didn't even know what it was. Oh, well, what colour was it? They don't normally do cocktails

No, they're quite dangerous, because you think it's like drinking liquid Haribo, don't you

And then suddenly you realise you've put away about 48 units and it's not even seven o'clock

Or is that just Keith? No. What colour was it? What colour was the cocktail

It was pretty colourless, actually. Oh. Sort of a slightly yellowy colour

Okay. It began with a C. It began with a C. It had limoncello in it? Was it lemony

No. No, no, no. It began with a C. It's not a cosmopolitan. That's pink

No. Well, there you go. Let's play Hunt the Cocktail. We've invented a new feature

for the next time there's a by-election. You ring in. Anyway, we'll find out for you

Will Steve's blood alcohol content have any effect on all the mosquitoes

that we're feasting on, that are currently feasting on him in Umbria

Thank you, Steve. Two fine lines for you. Remember, some of the people that ring in at the very top of the hour have either not quite

got the hang of it or... I would never... Martha and Amelia who are answering

the phones would never say this to them, but I can. Their questions are rubbish. So some people ring in with rubbish questions and they

don't get on. And a bit like, this is a nice one

a bit like if you're really clever and you're about to beat me up

online in a discussion, on air, live on air, in a discussion about racism

or two-tier policing, then they screen you out and they don't let you on

I presume that's still a story that's been told on Elon Musk's platform. It's about as true as most of the things that have been told on Elon Musk's platform

But I occasionally get something creeping into my conscience. Yeah, they don't let on good people

They don't let on decent people who can tell him what's what. It's outrageous how they just let people on who they know are stupid

But they actually agree with me, the stupid people. But they don't let me on because I'm clever

Anyway, some questions are really bad and they genuinely don't get on. which means there'll be a couple of phone lines free

usually about three minutes after we start. Andy is in Hull. Andy, question or answer

I have a question, James, please. Carry on. So, I don't know, people who lip-read

I think that's probably the easiest way to say it, would they know that I from Yorkshire So can lip detect accents Yes accents yeah Especially like obviously within the UK we got

a vast range of accents. Would they say, this guy's from Yorkshire, this guy's, you know

Mancunian. Accents are... I think we've had this before, but I can't remember the answer

so, I mean, it counts again. There'd be some... I'm trying to think of the most elongated, like

the thing that does the most weird, probably a Scouser, is it, whose mouth is the most associated with the accent

My wife is Polish, and she can understand really strong, like, Scots accents straight away

But sometimes she still struggles now when I'm talking to her. Really

She's just pretending, mate. Yeah, more than likely. I like this. I like this

I mean, I don't quite... I can't. I usually can have a fairly educated guess on

I would have thought not. But who knows? I like that. Can you identify an accent just from lip-reading

Lovely question. Yeah, because when you learn to lip-read, I'm assuming you do it off a DVD or something like that

and that person will be speaking the Queen's English. You know, like, really perfect English

Yeah, probably. So then when you come to all and it's like, you know, it's different

But I'm going to do a variety of accents. You're still shaping your mouth in the same way

Well, also, you've got dialects as well when they drop syllables, like I just did, in a slightly patronising way

When you drop a syllable. That's it, yeah. Like, we're famous for, like, five and nine

So people are going to look at that and go, what is that word? I don't even recognise that word

If it's just purely on how your mouth moves. Yeah, you could be right. Yeah, you're on

Hey, I think it was a caipirinha, Andy. You've lost me, mate. Go on

The cocktail. Oh, I know, the cocktail that Steve was having in Umbria

just before you came on. Sorry, mate. Yeah, you know what? I was half listening

and I was half watching the dog in the garden. Sorry, the dog was roaming in something

Oh, girl, you might want to sort that out. I'm sure we've had that before

but, hey, I'm 54. I can't remember the answer. Sue me. 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need

12-14. So, do mosquitoes react to, in any way, the blood alcohol content of their victims

or the prey? And can lip readers detect regional accents? Hit the numbers now

You probably will get through, actually, but we need a few more questions as well. The time now is 12.15

James O'Brien on LBC. It is 12.16, and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

Mosquitoes and blood alcohol and lip reading and accents. Juliette Simmarlow. Juliette, question or answer

It's a question, and thank goodness for that, because I was really worried when I was there on hold

when you were saying about people with rubbish questions not getting through

I thought that you were, like, surreptitiously telling those on hold your questions are rubbish, so hang up

You're making me sound like a monster. No, I just was a bit worried, thinking

oh, no, maybe he's just trying to tell us nicely if we're waiting in the sidelines that our questions are good

No, it's the people who aren't on there. It's the people who've been politely told that we'll ring them back

They're the ones whose questions are... Sorry, I'm getting my own colleagues into trouble now

I'm not, I'm not, I'm not. That's not how it works at all. The only people that aren't allowed on are the people who are much, much cleverer than me

and will beat me in all arguments. They're the only people that are not allowed on to..

Oh, and Nigel Farage as well, because I'm frightened of him. They're the people that are allowed

Go on then, Juliet. Question or answer? It's a question. I'm going to caveat it with saying it is actually my daughter's question

but she's not here to ask it. So if it's rubbish, it's her question

God, chuck your own daughter under the bus, and there's me apologising for being a monster

Go on. Yeah, no joke. Okay, so first cousins whose parents, and for argument's sake, make it easier to picture

their mothers are identical twin sisters. Yeah. Does that make the first cousins slightly genetically closer than just regular first cousins

Yes. Oh, do you know that definitively already? Yeah, all right, clever clogs

I mean, I appreciate you're going to want a little bit more flesh on the bones of that answer. But again, as with the lip reading one, it rings a bell this

I think that if two identical twins marry two identical twins, I think their children are genetically siblings rather than cousins

Really? Well, I mean, don't take it to the bank, but I think so

They would be, wouldn't they? Well, I don't know. I think her question was more, if just the mothers

I know her question, but if my theory is correct, then her theory will be correct as well

They will be more than normal cousins. They'll have more in common

But I mean, then again, of course, you go back far enough, cousins marrying each other all the time

particularly in the... Well, actually, in all... Well, yeah, I knew you were going to say in the royal family

but in rural areas as well and all over the place. We wouldn't move around a lot

We weren't very mobile. So when you looked at a family tree, there'd be degrees of kinhood on it

that would be less likely to be there now. and therefore I don't know that there is a pure sibling type DNA map

if you see what I mean, or a pure cousin one. But I think on... Well, I'll ask. I don't know why I'm wanging on about this

I don't know anything about it. The question's brilliant. If you have identical twins and they both have children

will those children have a closer genetic connection than other first cousins

Exactly that, yes. Why does she want to know? Are you an identical twin? No, I'm not

Do you know what? She's actually staying with her cousins and my sister-in-law right now doing work experience

I don't know if she was thinking about the relationship, the closeness. No, it's nice

And maybe that's what it was. No, I like it. I like it. Thank you very much, Juliette. We shall find out for you

Cousins and twins. 20 minutes after 12. Ben is in Bristol. Ben, question or answer

Hi, James. Yes, question, please. Carry on. My question is, when you see car showrooms

in shopping malls and big shopping centres. How do they get the cars into the showroom

In context, I was in Cribs Causeway in Bristol recently. Oh, yes

And on the second floor in there, there's a Polestar showroom. And I was thinking, how on earth did it get them in there

Because obviously Cribs Causeway has still been made for a long time

So it's not like they made it around the car showroom. So, yeah. They've got massive lifts

Yeah, but how do they get it in, though? They drive it in. Yeah, but where? Fruit

What? Well, they wait till it's shut, and then they drive... How else are they going to do it

A teleporter? Yeah, but no, but like... Yeah, but no, but like..

You're right, Vicky Pollard. Spit it out. Go on, there's got to be a better answer than that

Why do you think it's not, just to be clear, because I may be missing some elements of the question

why do you think it's not lifts? I don't know. I mean, I guess so

but just it seems like there's... I don't know, just getting it in through the front

They have to take off the front doors and stuff. No, there's a trader

There's a goods entrance. Everywhere's got a goods entrance with a little ramp and a metal thing

and you drive it in and there's a big old... Look do you want me to get you a generic answer or do you want someone who is specific Somebody works in it Someone who is specific to the Mallet Cribs Causeway in Bristol Because also your colleague was saying about the one

you know when you're driving in from the M4 towards London? Yes. There's the massive big SkyTripper that's got loads of cars

That's near my house. That's Lyft. Is it? Yeah, that's Lyft. You can see the Lyft on the side of the Audi garage

They go up. So that's why I think it's Lyft. There's an Audi garage, there's a Volkswagen garage

It's just opposite where the GlaxoSmith climb building used to be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the building's still there

It's just not GlaxoSmith. This has gone a bit niche, this, Ben. Yeah. Right, you're on

How do they get cars into malls, if not in lifts? Then it must be magic flipping ones

but he doesn't accept my answer, so we'll have to wait for yours. Oh, three, four, five. And do you say mall or mall, Ben

Mall. Yeah, I do too. It's the mall. So the mall is where, you know, the big street in town

and the mall is where you go shopping. 22 minutes, even though they're spelled the same. David's in Bristol

David, question or answer? Question, James. Sorry, I'm David. Very quick one

I've been on holiday recently. Yeah, everyone has, it seems, except me. I'm going at the end of the month

It seems it's that time of year, isn't it? Hanging in there. Hanging in there. Won't be long. Won't be long. Thank you

Quick question. Why does the palms of your hands and the base of your feet

never catch a tan? They've got no melatonin in them. Is it purely and simply that

That was a very good joke, with a bit of comedic callback to Michael's call earlier

later in the last, that melanin, of course, I mean. Yes. Don't I

No, they don't seem to burn and two, they never seem to change colour

I reckon they burn. I mean, they would burn eventually, wouldn't they? Because you burn, you know, when someone says don't touch that place, it's really hot

If you sat there in the sun for hours, you would probably, you know, catch serious skin damage

Okay, well, obviously, with all of these questions, I think I've answered them correctly, but we're going to need someone who's actually got some qualifications to confirm or deny my theory

So you're much thicker skin on the palms of your hands and the soles of your feet

so that will be part of it coupled with the old melanin. Would it take longer

Did you physically tan your palms and your hands eventually? No, I think people of colour have much paler palms and soles

than the rest of their bodies are. So obviously it's going to be linked to melanin

but I will get you a proper answer, or at least get you an answer that may be the same as mine

but it will be from someone who actually knows what they're talking about. No, thanks

Which is always preferable. Thank you very much. Where did you go on your holidays

Menorca. How was it? Beautiful. Was it? Quite a lot of people

going to Menorca this year. Has it become cool? Has it become fashionable? We go to a very quiet place. Very nice

No English. All Spanish. It was fantastic. That won't last. The place I go to in Greece used to be like that

Then I told everyone about it. 24 minutes after 12 is the time. Dean is in

Shoram. Dean, question or answer? Hello, James, here's a question. Carry on, Dean

Someone on this show will be able to to solve a years-long argument between me and my mum

Go on, then. And I'm with my mum today, so I said, right, we'll find Mystery Hour

And my mum's name is Brenda. Hello, Brenda! When it gets hot, like it did last week

my mum insists that drinking a cup of tea calls you down

because she says it will make you sweat and sweating will cool you

I say... That's a load of rubbish. I say... Don't speak to your mother like that, please

I gently disagree with my mother, James. That's more like it, yes

Thank you. And, sorry, mother. And I say that it basically raises your temperature

and then you start to naturally cool down and then you go back to where you started

So basically it makes you hotter and then you're back to where you started rather than cooling you down

Is there someone listening to this show who is, you know, a scientist of some sort

that can tell us whether it cools you down or not? Me. What are your qualifications, James

I've dealt with this question before, and I spent a period of my life as a labourer

on a building site in South Yorkshire where this was a subject of brief but definitive debate

among my labouring colleagues. Right. Well, I don't know if it was two weeks, actually

It might have only been one week. But anyway, it was a very significant part of my life

And in a way, you're both right. Because obviously, when you drink a cold drink

you cool down internally quite quickly. But your mother is more right

But as long as the sweat can evaporate, so as long as, so, you know

you'll be wearing short sleeves or short trousers, as long as the sweat can evaporate

because it's the evaporation that causes the heat exchange that cools you down much more effectively

much more long-termly, and much more comprehensively. So your mum is right

The hot drink causes you to sweat a bit. The sweat evaporates. That cools down any bit of skin

where the sweat has appeared and subsequently evaporated. whereas you're just go on

what if I'm wearing like what if I'm wearing nylon or rayon

or something I mean that isn't the question is it you're only allowed one question and Brenda's right

she's done you like a kipper mate old Brenda, not old Brenda, lovely Brenda

she's made it up the stairs and is now cackling at me James

she's not cackling you rude boy she's chuckling, honestly show her some respect, well done Brenda

Hello, thank you very much I knew I was There it is

You know what you're going to do now to celebrate You're going to have a nice cup of tea

I will, let's call me down A round of applause for all of us

Lovely stuff Thank you, dude There you go, I don't know Anyway, also, don't wear nylon

Bal's in Stourbridge Bal, question or answer? Answer, James Carry on, Bal

how to get cars into shopping centers and dealerships that are high up

Yes. Well, first things first, the Audi one, they have obviously lifts

which you've already figured out. But some car showrooms actually have ramps outside

where they actually have a ramp towards the top of the showroom

Yes. And then they'll drive it through onto a bay and that'll drive it through into the second floor of the showroom

But regarding shopping centers, that's a little bit more health and safety and difficult

again, they'll drive you through double doors somewhere in the shopping centre

And nowadays, they're pretty flexible. You can actually drive the car through and then park it up

And then you have to disconnect the battery and put a little tray underneath for the oil. But many, many years ago, you had to make sure that the car was disconnected to the battery

There was hardly any fuel. And you literally had to make sure that you pushed the car into the designated demonstration area

And the thing about, also to help Ben, there would be a lift

in there, because... But we wouldn't see it. We wouldn't see it, because it's not... I mean, you have to get massive pallets

of trainers up to the third floor as well and things like that. You'll have pallets for deliveries for, obviously

Marks and Spencer. But if there's a car on the third floor, there's a lift

there, because they've not brought it up the escalators. Well, what you'll have is, obviously, whatever

bay the car is going to go through, it'll drive up the ramp to the

area where there's a lift, drive it through, or it may not even need to go through the lift

because obviously there might be a double door that they'll be driving it through anyway. But generally, if you can't see the means

by which that car has got to where it's got, then there is either a ramp or a lift off stage

Absolutely right. There's a ramp or a lift. And again, a lot of dealerships, especially the Audi, that have ramps behind them

The dealership where they'll drive onto the ramp, onto the roof, there'll be a loading bay

and then you'll drive the car straight through, or you go onto a lift, obviously whatever floor you want to go onto, and then take it through there

Qualifications? I've been selling cars for 31 years. Whereabouts in Stoutbridge are you

I actually live in Howes Owen now. I used to be in Stoutbridge, I used to be in Pedmore, so your neck of the woods

Pedmore, yeah, that is near me. I had a girlfriend from Pedmore when I was about 13

Oh, yeah. It's a small world, isn't it? Yeah, lovely car. Did you see the small world

Love that. But have you delivered cars to, like, I mean, dealerships, yes

but have you delivered them to shopping malls ever and stuff like that? Yes, yeah. I did the utility arena in Birmingham about 10, 15 years ago

which was a bit of a nightmare. A round of applause for Val, please. Thank you very much, and hopefully I'll win a book and a prize

Yeah, there's a book. I'm not giving away books, mate. My kids need shoes, but there might be a board game in it for you a little later

although, you know, competition at the moment is pretty stiff. I'm probably leaning towards Dean and his mum, obviously, aren't we, at the moment

I don't know. Thank you, pal. Here's Matt Hewitt with the headlines

James O'Brien on LBC. 33 years of time. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

Theatres as well, probably. Thinking about it. Have massive lifts, won't they, around the place

Anyway, questions that still need answers. Do mosquitoes respond to the alcohol content in your blood when they eat you

Or specifically Steve in Umbria. Do lip readers detect regional accents? If identical twins had children, would those children be genetically more than cousins

Would they be sort of halfway in between cousins and siblings? I'd suppose

We've done the cars and that's Bell's answer. We've done the hot drinks

That was James' answer. And why are the palms of our hands

and the soles of our feet immune to sunlight? Why don't they tan ever

Andy's in Islington. Andy, question or answer? It's a question, please, James

Carry on, Andy. How are bus route numbers determined? Is it London-centric

It's a man after my own heart. It's not London-centric. There's bus routes everywhere, mate. You should get out of town a bit more often

There are bus routes all over the world. in LBC land. I want to understand why

For example, the 113, I believe, goes from Edgware to... Take your time. Take your time. I love this

This is not a motoring question, Keith. It's a logistics question. Fill your boots, Andy, and take your time

I love this stuff. It's like honey in my ears. 113, go on, carry on

Carry on. Indeed. We don't agree on much, James, but I think we agree on... Don't spoil it by saying that

Because it makes you sound like a racist. Seriously, and we all know that you're not

You've just got legitimate concerns. But anyway, on you go with the bus routes

Yeah, I mean, as I say, the 113, I believe, goes from Edgeware, I think it's Edgeware to Marble Arch

How can it Y113? Y113. I mean, even in the days before the routes were all operated

by different operators in some parts of the world, how would they decide what was what and which was which

Yes. And I recall visiting Birmingham and Manchester and up in Scotland

and some of them are prefixed with letters, which possibly could add to the... Confusion

Resolve it or add to the confusion. What is your favourite bus route

This is a phone-in they won't let me do, but what is your favourite... We nearly did it once

What's your favourite bus route? I'm not a huge bus user. What are you asking this question for, then

Because I've always been fascinated. I like buses. I love the old route masters and all the rest of it

especially the ones with the AEC engines in them. Anyway, I'm sorry, I'm getting too technical

You do like buses. So you like the buses vehicularly, but not actually in a user's kind of way

More of a spotter, more of an enthusiast than a passenger. It was the 88, James, two fat ladies

That's his favourite, is it? Yes. Why is he so shy about it

Oh, well, we're not up to the watershed yet. Where did you come from

You just hopped on the footplate halfway through the conversation. I jumped on the bandwagon, literally

And why do your children not have shoes? That's another question. They do have shoes

They just need more constantly. Have you met young people these days? They can never have enough

That's a reference, of course, to why I want everyone to buy board games and books on the programme

because my kids need shoes. Lovely. Hang on, what's Andy's... What's the lady's name

I've only got Andy's name. Alexa. Alexa. Oh, hang on. Don't ask me the Christmas calls, for heaven's sake

I've got an original... She doesn't know a thing, James. She doesn't know a thing. The world has changed, hasn't it, for you, Alexa

A hell of a lot in the last few years. It has. Can you sue

And in a good way. I was either Alex, Alexis, Alexia, Alexandra

Oh, that's nice. Everyone knows now. Everyone knows now. Everyone knows now I'm the best assistant in the world

I think I'll just call you Siri. 12.37 is the time. The bus routes, the bus routes, the bus routes

How do they do it? Is it just chronologically? you start with one. And when the very first bus route was one

and then two, and then two, I do not know, but I love that quote. I love buses. I can bore for Britain on buses

Did we do it, Keith? Or did Eleanor forbid me from doing it? We were really close, weren't we

She's off at the moment. You could... Would Elliot let me do

what's your favourite bus route? Soften him up a bit, Keith. So tune in at 12 tomorrow

to see if we've managed to get what's your favourite bus route past Elliot. And the fact that Eleanor is off this week

and also that we've had a bit of a personnel change on the programme in recent weeks

may explain why a few of you are complaining about repetition. We've had a couple of these before

I think you're exaggerating a bit, Matt, when you say we've had every single one. And also, that's not how you spell deja vu, clever clogs

But if you can't remember the answer and I can't remember the answer, then it counts as a question

Obviously, the much missed, because he's busier these days than he was when he used to ring in all the time

And Professor Howe was the original answer of the sweat question and the hot drink question And that a mark of how Mystery Hour makes you a better person because I remembered it and provided the answer 12 is the time Miranda is in Maiden Newton in Dorset Miranda question or answer Answer Carry on

Okay, so this is the question of whether lip readers can understand accents or understand

where you're from. When I went to drama school, we learned how to do accents

and we were told that there's certain tensions in the mouth that will produce these accents

I can remember two. So one is Cockney. If you don't move your top lip

you automatically speak Cockney. If you don't move your top lip, you'll automatically speak..

I sound like Michael Caine. That's extraordinary. So you don't move your top lip

Don't move your top lip. I like that. Yeah, go on. And if you go up north

If you think Vera Duckworth, the letterbox shape on your mouth. Hey, upshot

Yeah, or Wallace and Gromit. They've got those as well. So automatically you pull your lips apart as a..

God, that sounds awful. Anyway, as if a letterbox shape. Yes. And a scouser as well

A scouser is... Well, that's not far from Lancashire, is it? It's not..

It's that neck of the woods. You give it a letterbox shape and it's all going to come out like this

and you keep your top lip dead. It's very hard to keep your top lip dead still

There's often an explanation for it, isn't there? Like pollution and things like that

So there's a theory that the Birmingham accent or the Black Country accent is because there was

so much disgusting fumes being pumped into the atmosphere. Same thing with the tension in the top lip for the cockneys

and the smog. Yeah, yeah, of course, yeah. Oh, I love all that. But do you have any knowledge of whether or not

this does actually translate to lip readers? Actually, practice it. When you go round a shop and look at people's faces and think

are you from London? Are you from up north? Really? You probably can tell. I reckon, and I'm not even joking

that I could tell where Peter Kay was from before he started talking

Quite. So I don't know what that means. There's just certain physiognomies that seem to let..

And there's probably a relationship. I don't know. I love that. So yes is your answer, although you're not a lip reader

No. I think I'm going to give you the round of applause. Thank you. Thank you, Miranda

Thank you. And also, we'll gloss over that other part. Ricky's in Hampstead in North London

Ricky, question or answer? Question for you, please, James. Carry on, Ricky

Who's Bob and how come he's my uncle? This is... I mean, come on, lads

Honestly, we're putting that through? I mean, we must have... I mean, no offence, mate

but we must have done this about 417 times. Even I could... Well, probably..

Can you remember the answer, Keith? Were you saying we've never done it before? everyone's had a fit of the vapours

It must be the hot weather. I can't remember. No, it's you, James. You're just going delusional

You might be. Not anyone else. No, you're probably right, actually. If you think everyone else is mad

chances are it's you. Where's that George Orwell quote when you need it? So who is Bob

and why is he my uncle? I do know this. And I'm only trying to... Well, come on. Well, calm down

You can't badger me because I'm trying to just create a low-level banter

in the background while my brain goes into a different part and comes up with the answer

to Bob's your Bob. Bob. It's not Bob. you uncle bob no i've got nothing it's on the board which is outrageous frankly i'll tell you

it's not well it's a good one i'll tell you who's not getting the game this week ricky it's 12 41 it's the time hannah is in northampton uh hannah question or answer

it is a question yeah so my question is if we all have these horrible little

mites on our eyelashes where do they come from oh why do you make your eyes all tickly

Yeah, well, also, some people are eating. Are you sure that we all have horrible little mites on our eyelashes

Is it a permanent state of affairs for everybody? Well, this is what I've heard

Okay. I remember being told by a teacher once, like years and years ago

to stop us from sharing mascara, and then I've heard it ever since, but always forgotten to find out what the answer is

Oh, and here we are. What an honour. So what's the question? Where do they come from in the first place

Yeah, are we born with them, or how do they find our eyes? Why do they just live in our eyes and not our head, if that's the case

I think they might live in other oil glands and follicles, but I'm not 100% sure

You asked the question. You can't go all squeamish now, Hannah. Oh, I know. It's horrible, isn't it, though

It's not really. We need to be a bit more grown up about these things. So, it's not obviously..

So, eyelash mites, where do they come from? Where do they come from

Where do they come from? I mean, where do fleas come from? Where does anything come from

Where do nits come from? where does any parasite come from they just

they exist and then they find a host and they hop on and Bob's your uncle boom

oh dear, thank you Hannah 12.43 is the time I've got some phone lines free and I've got lots of questions

that need answering and frankly you can't simultaneously complain that we've done them all before

and not ring in with the answer that you can remember from last time, that's my job

mosquitoes, blood alcohol does a mosquito get drunk when it drinks your blood when you've had a skinful

We've done the lip reading. That was a lovely answer from Miranda. If two

identical twins get married to different people and have children, will the children

be more than cousins? Will they be somehow in between cousins and siblings? I like

that question. We've done the cars. Good answer from Bal. Why are the palms of our hands and the soles

of our feet so immune to sun tanning? How do bus routes

get allocated? who's Bob and whose uncle was he originally? And eyelash mites

What's that all about? James is in Oxford. James, hang on, 03456060973 is the number you need

Hit the numbers now, you will get through. And listen, the game's still up for grabs. At the moment, I think that Dean and his mum are in the lead

Dean and Brenda are just in the lead, but it's anybody's. It's anybody's game at this point in proceedings

James is in Oxford. James, question or answer? Sorry, am I interrupting something

No, no, no, no. It's the answer. It's the answer for the mosquito thing

Carry on. So shamefully and unlucky for us the mosquitoes will not get drunk no matter the amount of alcohol we going to actually drink because the actual content will be still pretty low to start any effect

And besides, the mosquito has several enzymes, which the drop of blood is digested straight away

and one of the enzymes is decomposing the alcohol as well, aside from the blood content

So that's before it gets to the nervous system. So unfortunately for us, they will not have any effect whatsoever

As a matter of fact, when we drink a lot, then we're becoming a better target for them

easier to be spotted because the mosquitoes are using a thermosensory stimulus

And so they don't feel obviously they don't have an ice like human being, but they sense the changes in temperature

So if we drink a lot, and then we're getting hot, flushed in the face

we're becoming automatically better target. Really? So the mosquito is drawn to the warmth

Yes, yes. I suppose it is, because it's drawn to warm-blooded creatures, isn't it

In a certain degree, obviously, because otherwise you would say, why the mosquito is not flowing to the open fire

Yeah. Yeah, they're sensing only the interval of the temperatures. Wow. Which, they develop this sense pretty smoothly

as we develop our eyesight, because this is one of the main things they use for orientation

This is wonderful, an extraordinary answer. A beautiful answer. What are your qualifications

I'm a doctor, medical doctor, and I have a degree in biology as well

That'll do nicely. That doesn't necessarily explain why you'd know about mosquito enzymes, does it

Would you study that in the course of your study? Well, I'm just too curious brain, to be fair

My brain doesn't rest. Yeah, I'm exactly the same. Where are you from originally, if you don't mind me asking, James

I'm from Alpington, and original name is Jarek. I used the previous name James

I was about to pick you up on. I was about to say, why did you say? No, you didn't

No, I didn't. But I think that's why you paused a bit when you came on, and I said James, and you thought, hang on a minute, he means me

Exactly, yes. Yes, there you go. You see, that's my curious brain going into overdrive

at the beginning of this conversation. Round of applause for Yarek. James. Yarek

Thank you, thank you, James. Thank you, Yarek. You're a great presenter. Yeah, well, you're a great caller

I love you, man. Take care. It's 1246. James O'Brien on LBC

Sounds good. Ooh, Keith, make a note. What's it called? Full disclosure with James O'Brien

That sounds fun. Crikey, all sorts of superstars on there. Some good ones coming up as well

This week's Russell T. Davis, which is a particular treat because his new show, Tiptoe

is absolutely extraordinary. on Channel 4, started on Sunday. Mystery Hour is underway, which is also a podcast, actually

While we're talking about Global Player, we put it up every week as a separate, self-contained little podcast

It's wonderful for long journeys, and it's something that all the family can enjoy. But this one's going to end a bit early

unless I get a few more answers on the board than I've currently got. So the questions that still need answers are..

Actually, we've done the mosquit. We've actually done quite a few, haven't we? Where do eyelash mites come from

What is the origin of the phrase, Bob's your uncle? How are

bus routes allocated? Why do the palms of our hands and the soles

of our feet not tan in the sunshine? And what happens, what

is the genetic relationship between the children of identical twins? That works, doesn't it? So if you can answer any of those

0345 6060 973 is the number you need. Ten minutes to one is the time. Francesca

is in Sutton. Francesca, question or answer? answer please don't carry on Francesca

I just wanted to answer the question regarding DNA and how similar

cousins are versus children of twins go on I just wanted to say that basically

when a mother and father have a child that child shares 50

of the DNA from the mother 50% from the father so when they have a sibling they will share 50% of the DNA with that sibling

We recombine all DNA in sperm and in eggs just to make things as healthy as possible

Diversity is as healthy as possible. Don't say that. Don't say that. You sound like you hate white people

Oh, that's gone over your head, hasn't it? Diversity is good, you said

You're not allowed to say that this week. Of DNA. Of DNA. Go on, yes

Of human beings. Of human beings. Oh, sorry, that was the wrong one. No, that's all right. I think, have you got your radio on in the background

No. Okay, it's just me that's confusing you. I'll shut up then

You carry on. Yeah, so children, siblings share 50% of the DNA

Cousins share 25% of the DNA. Because, obviously, you're one degree away

Yes. But if you have identical twins, they do not share 50% of their DNA

They share 100% of their DNA. There it is. Because they are identical. Yeah, so the children, the two twins

Cousins, technically, legally they're cousins, genetically they're half-siblings. It's just siblings. No, because it's not two sets of identical twins

it's only one set of identical twins. OK, so the mums are identical twins, but the dads aren't. Correct

Yes. So they would be half-siblings? They would be half-siblings. Genetically, but cousins legally

Legally. Wow. And if it was two sets of identical twins, they'd be full siblings

You wouldn't be able to tell the difference from their DNA about whose was whose. This is the wonderful thing about DNA is that it's always recombined

and it's always produced in the healthiest pattern you can through the diversity

But if you're talking about the solid block of DNA that they share

not that they express, but that they share, you're talking about half of it

Love it. Qualifications? I've just got a degree in genetics. I've just got a degree in genetics

Do you know, no man would have done that. A man would have just gone, I've got a degree in genetics

but you say that's the best possible qualification for the question that you've just answered

No, no, but all my siblings are dentists so it doesn't really matter

It matters to me Francesca have a round of applause there you go none of them have got one of those have they No That it That one goes off the list

Francesca, got the twins question. Akkan is in Sheffield. Akkan, question or answer

I've got answer. I'm going to try and answer one of your questions about the tanning one. Top man

Yeah, so, first time caller, yeah. Lovely show. Love you. You're very kind. Love you too

So essentially, we've got melanocytes everywhere. We've got it in every part of our skin

And most especially, we've also got it in our... Melanocytes, as in sort of melanin..

Yeah, exactly. So this melanocyte, what it does is it produces melanin

Got it. Which is responsible for giving us skin colour. And it's kind of like our body's own defence mechanism

against ultra-violent light. Yes. So everyone, irrespective of race or ethnicity, they've got exactly the same amount of melanin on average

The problem, the thing is, so every people, like take for example people from West Africa and people from like say the north of England, the difference is mainly in terms of the activity of this melanocyte

Now, when they tan, they essentially produce more melanin, which then protects us from this ultraviolet light

But if you look at the melanocytes that are in the palms, one, the palm and the soles have much more thicker skin

So this ultraviolet light doesn't actually penetrate deep into reach this melanocyte

And in terms of the distribution and the density of this melanocyte, the palms and the soles, they have a reduced number, hence having like a reduced density of this melanocyte there

So when you combine all of these factors, it's essentially not going to turn

because the sunlight or the ultraviolet light is not reaching it in the first place

and it's not even reaching enough of those melanocytes, and based on wherever your ethnicity is from

the activity of these melanocytes already differs in the first place, and when you combine all of these factors, you get that result

That's a perfectly comprehensive answer. I've only got one quibble. Yeah. What sort of light is it

so light itself has like no light what what is the light called that stimulates ultra violent

light ultra what ultraviolet light violet because it sounded like you're saying ultra

violent light for quite a long time no absolutely not i thought we've had enough of that this week

so that's a perfect answer what are your qualifications i can't i'm a pdc doctor

well that'll do nicely i said come on then you probably would know the difference between ultra

violent light, an ultra violent light. My first band was, no, don't even do it. Here's a round of

applause for you, Akam. Oh, thank you very much. Thank you very much. What a brilliant debut

What a lovely mystery hour. Who's going to win the game? Donna Marie is in Watch It

In Watch It. It's not called Watch It. It is. What, like

Watch It? Go on. Watch It. Watch It. In Somerset. Watch It

Watch It, Donna Marie. Watch It. Carry on. Question or answer? It's an answer. Watch it, Keith

Yes, carry on. It's about the eyelash, mate. Oh, yes. So, on your body, you have something called demodex mites

No, I don't. How dare you? Watch it, Donna Marie. I do not

And if there is an overgrowth on your face, the little devil..

That's not an overgrowth, that's a beard. If there's an overgrowth of these mites on your face

they then kind of travel upwards and decide that they want pastures new

so they go and seek out your eyelashes. now if you don't get on top of them

and they continue to grow in your eyelashes in the little glands

it can result in a condition called blepharitis which is really nasty

and so it's an overgrowth of demodex mites how do you get rid of them

well you have to have a regime of kind of like helping to bleed the glands

as in, because you know your eyelids are made up, well, you've got tear ducts and you've got medium glands

that produce the oil that keep the tears on your eyes. Ah. Yeah, and so you have to kind of like steam those

make it nice and warm, bleed it to make sure that you're actually getting the oil into your eyes

which stops the dry eye, but it actually also helps to kill off the demodex mites as well

This is a superbly comprehensive answer. What are your qualifications, Donna Marie

I have had, I have been suffering with blepharitis on and off for 20 years

Flippin' hair. Blephanitis. Blepharitis. Blepharitis. All right, watch it. Blepharitis. Do you see where she's calling from, Sheila

I can hear. No, not the accent. The town she's in in Somerset

Watch it. Watch it, Sheila. It's called Watch It. Watch it. It's called Watch It

I thought she was calling from Liverpool. She's obviously been to Liverpool at some point, I would suggest

but she's not there now. Watch it with your presumptions. Round of applause for Donna Marie

Thank you. No, thank you. That's it, we're done. If you missed any of today

who's going to... Brenda. What? I think Francesca should have it. Do you know why

Why? When she said, all my siblings are dentists. Yeah, you're right

Sorry, Brenda. Sheila Fogarty has just snatched that game out of your..

I'm so sorry, Brenda. Out of your grasp. No, you're right. We'll give it to Francesca. I've got lots of siblings

as you know and and they can they don't mean to do it but they can sometimes put you in your box

without really meaning to there was a plaintiff you know you're only you're only that you're

only a gob on a stick yeah yeah i'm a public servant of some repute oh and i had an aunt

once who said to me and my midwife sister at a family event um i know she was a distant cousin

not an aunt she said um so which one of you is the midwife and which one of you is the one that

talks for a living so i pretended to be a midwife i hope she wasn't pregnant if you missed anything

of today's show you can listen back on our free global player app or the lbc app where you can

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