Why would you watch a "joy ride" video?| James O'Brien - The Whole Show

Three minutes after ten is the time you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC, for which I thank you

Listen, how many times have you heard me say that two things can be true at the same time

There's a reason why it's almost a cliché. It's a figure of speech

And it flies in the face of modern discourse, doesn't it, in a way. You've got to pick a side. You've got to be 100% one way or the other

everything's a zero-sum game and I didn't talk about this story yesterday

shall I tell you why I didn't talk about this story yesterday? I don't think I would use the phrase

I protect my mental health sometimes when I'm on the radio because I can't, you know

I've got to go into the stories that are most current but the deaths of these two police officers

just the horrible nature of this story following fast upon another incident that left several people dead in an apparent sort of joy

riding incident. But it was the deaths not of the joy riders, and forgive me for that

but of PC's Matthew Blades and Tom Clough and the photographs smiling out from the newspapers

and the thought that you have as well of the families that are now bereft. The conversation

we nearly had yesterday, and the reason I didn't have it was I just thought it would be too sad

was about what it's like to be either in the police service or the loved ones, the family

members of somebody in the police service, and that knowledge every morning, there is a danger

that your day will end in the way that the days of the families of Matthew Blades and Tom Clough

ended on Saturday. A Volkswagen Passat travelling the wrong way down the A66

a pursuit of which had been called off shortly before, and the collision with the police officer's car

when they were driving along in a perfectly normal fashion, looking out for the trouble that had been caused

or the trouble represented by this car. Twelve people have been arrested on suspicion of various offences

including being involved with organised crime. This is part of the investigation into the crash that killed the two police officers and five others

There's not a lot you can say with absolute certainty, except that Nigel Farage won't be making any public comment about this or delivering any speeches or calling a press conference because there's no way to turn it into a story about immigration

So his levels of concern will be low, let's say, to be kind

For the rest of us who live in the real world, it's a story which has very quickly moved towards social media

And headlines in both the cheaper prints and the more thoughtful newspapers both focus upon this

War on Deadly Joyride Vids is on the front page of The Sun this morning

PM TikTok vow after Crash Kill 7. And in the iNewspaper, TikTok trend blamed for rise in fatal wrong way

crashes. Supposedly, content that promotes crime is prohibited on these platforms. Videos

glamorizing dangerous driving, however, are very, very easy to find. Every now and then

we have a moment, don't we, where we realize that there are, there is a lot more to heaven and earth

than is dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio. You realize that there's all sorts of things going

on in the world. Sometimes on quite a high level about which you know absolutely nothing

Shall I give you a low level example of that? I'll give you a very sweet and uncontroversial

example of what I'm talking about. When they reveal the line up for Strictly Come Dancing

and you realise that you've become one of those people that recognises barely anybody on the list

and you ask your own children about some of the names that you're not familiar with

and they don't know either. And they're, in my case, 18 and 20. So you realize it's not even generational anymore

It's to do with orbits. It's to do with spinning orbits, some of which we can inhabit and some of which we can't

They are, of course, also intersecting. They are Venn diagrams. You can be in several orbits at the same time

but there will still be orbits about which you know nothing. This is not obviously a motoring story

except in a way it is, of course, because I generally don't exist, as you know

because I wang on about it all the time. I don't generally find myself engaging with stories

that are to do with motoring. So I am among the last people on the internet

whose algorithms are likely to start delivering up footage of young men driving at great speed and illegally

and exposing themselves and other road users to enormous danger. And here's the kicker

because the algorithm thinks I will enjoy it. And that's the first uncomfortable element

of this conversation. I don't mean the tragic elements. The tragic elements are obvious

But the first uncomfortable element of this conversation that nobody seems to be pointing out

despite the headlines talking about the war on deadly joyride vids, there's a sort of moral panic going on here

These are the baddies. It's these people in these cars, who I'm not going to call joyriders again

because that's a ludicrous misnomer, isn't it? There's no joy involved. Well, except for the point I'm about to make to you

You're chalking up two and a half million views for this kind of thing

That's like, you know, evidence of something a little sicker than the things being done by the criminals, isn't it

You like this stuff. let me rephrase that a little bit more diplomatically

we like this stuff if it's an online craze it's only an online craze

because people are lapping it up you know it's all very well sitting here

and complaining about what Elon Musk has done to Twitter but people on some level

must love all the racism otherwise the people doing all the racism wouldn't be making all the money

out of Elon Musk's re-engineered social media platform. Do you see what I mean

What would the equivalent be? I suppose tabloids or all moral panics

slightly reapportioned blame, don't they? When in fact, the blame, there's a chicken and egg going on here

Would you care about it if you didn't know about it? No. Would you care about it as much as you care about it

if a great effort wasn't being put into making you care about it? No

But do you care about it? Yes. Do you care about it? Yes

And, of course, the algorithm doesn't care whether you enjoy it or not. As David's just pointed out

it could be that the algorithm recognises you can't look away. You find it horrific

Although I don't think that's going to apply in the case of people enjoying these videos

because it reminds them of watching films like Fast and Furious, which, despite not having a petrol head gene

I have enjoyed some episodes of over the years. So it impossible to unravel that for me you might be able to You know the number You might be able to unravel the simple truth that people are watching this stuff

and the people who are watching it are creating or are displaying an appetite that these criminals are feeding

The people... I'll say that again because it's a horrible thought, right? The people who are watching it

are displaying an appetite that the criminals are feeding. So whether it was in Belfast last week or in Cleveland this weekend

if, and of course there are some details yet to be fully confirmed, but if it turns out and some of the people involved in these incidents

have a little bit of form, a little bit of history in the field

not just of criminality but also of posting these kind of films

if that's why they were doing it they were feeling an appetite

and that appetite is kind of on all of us isn't it

so the question I want you to answer is how much of the blame

for these events and that's the headline in the iNewspaper today TikTok trend blamed

for rise in fatal wrong way crashes how much of the blame can you actually put on tiktok and listen i'm not going to give you a

selection of other people to blame because i'm not the editor of the sun but i am wondering

whether you bear some blame are you going to ring me and tell me that you watch these videos and

enjoy them i don't think you are are you because you're reflecting i presume upon that appetite

that these young men are feeling. It's your appetite. So how much blame do we put on social media

And that's when I come back round to the point that two things can be true at the same time

Because if social media wasn't amplifying and spreading these films, if you weren't accruing clicks

and the reason why anything unpleasant on the internet exists is because it's the only affirmation that these people get

so whether they are trolls whether they are criminals posting evidence of their criminality

whether they are um i don't know what word to use instead of joy riders but you know you know what

i'm talking about dangerous driving glamorizing the glamorizers of dangerous driving and they're

counting the clicks that they get and they're looking at the likes they are even if they're

politicians if that's where they're getting their kicks they are leading desiccated lives

they are they are leading lives of emptiness and they are persuaded that the holes and the chasms

inside themselves can be filled just as some people think they can fill those holes inside

themselves with money or sex or public approval or approbation some people think they can fill

the holes inside themselves with with likes and clicks and thumbs ups and whatever else it may be

encouraging comments from other internet users. And we are all internet users

So we are all, in a way, responsible. And that's when the headlines say

war on deadly joyride vids and TikTok trend blamed for rising fatal wrongway crashes

They kind of miss the point that the audience is the problem

Isn't it? 0345 60973 is the number that you need. Are we ducking something here

Or am I... I do have a habit of overthinking things. It's possible I'm overthinking things

but I don't think I am here. The audience is the problem. You know

Yeah, by all means, take them down. But let's not pretend that they haven't been serving a purpose

that they are a supply that is caused by a demand. People want to watch these films

Millions of people are watching these films. By all means, remind me several times

that some people will be repulsed by these films and the algorithm will keep serving them up

because of the amount of seconds that you've spent watching it, being clocked somewhere on a supercomputer

and telling that algorithm that you will watch more of this stuff

if it keeps getting sent to you. But I don't think that's going to be the majority of people

who are watching this stuff. They're going to be finding it exciting. Hashtag Fast and Furious

There's hashtag Joyrider, hashtag, you know, NWA song about the police lyric

Hashtag whatever you like. But hashtags are designed to draw attention to things

And these people doing this thing, which is apparently, and this is what I meant by the orbits that are revolving

without you noticing that they even exist, suddenly I'm aware of a world I didn't know existed

A world that is not just online, of course, because these crimes, these tragedies have unfolded offline

They've unfolded on roads. They've unfolded in lives. It is PC Matthew Blades and PC Tom Clough and their families

who will be recognising that this is absolutely real, hideously real. Downing Street describing the glorification of dangerous driving

for clips and entertainment is utterly disgraceful. We have raised the issue with the social media company

So, listen, I'm not here to judge you, actually. I'm here to ask you why people watch these videos

And I can do that, I think, can't I? Because you know that the petrol head gene passed me by

I had a brief moment when I was 11 or 12 years old, when I thought that cars were exciting

But for the rest of my life, with a few very rare exceptions

I've been left curiously cold by the whole world of automotives. Why do people watch these films

I think I can ask you that today. I wouldn't have asked you that yesterday. But I can ask you that today

Why do people watch these films? And how much blame lies, not necessarily with the social media companies

but with their customers, with their users? Is that too uncomfortable a question

why do people watch these films? 03456060973 why do you watch these films

perhaps until this weekend you didn't realise what you were part of and contributing to

why do you watch them? 03456060973 and this is a question I really want you to answer

is it a cop-out? it feels like a cop-out to lay it all at the feet of the social media companies

I would be fully behind legislation that forced them not to broadcast this stuff

but it feels a little bit like coming after the event, doesn't it

So what I want you to tell me is why people watch these films

and whether or not you can blame this phenomenon and therefore these tragedies on the social media companies

It's becoming a bit of a camouflage. It's people that commit crimes, people that do terrible things

If you posting the footage on social media it still people who have done it Do you see what I mean So why do people watch these films 0345 6060 973 is the number you need

It's 19 minutes after 10. And a little bit more sort of philosophically, I suppose

is TikTok really to blame for this stuff? Or is it actually a little bit more complicated than that

Hit the numbers now, you will get through. James O'Brien on LBC

And here's another thought. Listen, again, it's not a genre of television that I enjoy particularly

but I'm not unaware of programmes like Police Camera Action and other shows

that essentially, I mean, don't they glorify dangerous driving? I mean, admittedly, from the point of view of admiring the police

who are conducting the pursuits, but what is the difference between someone filming themselves being an idiot

and a television company broadcasting footage of someone being an idiot for our entertainment

And of course, you know, one man's idiot is another man's speed freak, another man's speed demon

Films have car chases in them for a reason. Some of the most magnificent moments in cinema

contain car chases. But I don't know, I'm just trying to... What's the word I'm looking for

I'm just trying to worry at something a little bit more nuanced than these headlines allow

Let's all blame TikTok. Well, then, why are you watching Channel 5 tonight

And a programme which will feature footage every bit as high speed

as the footage that these characters were quite probably preparing to stick on the internet

03456060973. Is it the same? Is it the same thing that we're feeding

And now the moral panic just invites us to pretend that what's happening on TikTok..

Oh, that's outrageous, that's disgusting. and now you'll tune in to your TV show

that does exactly the same. So I don't know. Anyway, I just want your help in thinking about this today

Tony's in Greenock. Tony, what made you pick up the phone? Yeah, hi, James. You were talking about how people consciously

go on to TikTok to look at these things. There's also an element of it subconsciously happening

I was saying to your producer there, my wife looks at TikTok videos

and we'll be sitting up in the evening and say we'll be talking about we want to go to Inveraria for a couple of days

She'll get TikToks for hotels in Inveraria and things like that, or we'll be talking about the incidents on TV

of what's been happening and the crashes and that sort of thing

And she says, oh, you'll never believe what's come up on my TikTok

And it's videos of these things. So there's an element of you just talk about these things

You don't consciously want to see them, but you're having a conversation

and somehow your phone seems to pick up that that's what you're talking about

And these things appear. Yeah, my friend Alexis Conran, who does a show on Channel 5 in the mornings

has written a brilliant substack about this, actually. It's not the case that your phone is sort of listening to you

It's a little bit more complicated than that. But, I mean, it's to do with almost every aspect of your life being tracked by the technology

Therefore, the technology can predict with quite chilling accuracy sometimes the things that you are most likely to be interested in

So, you know, it will know where you went on your last holiday, for example, and it will know that it's the time of year where you might be thinking about a holiday again

and it will know that the bank holiday is coming up and last bank holiday you did a thing

So things will start appearing in front of you that are somewhat spooky

but actually it's reflective of your past, using your past to predict your future

I don't want to detoxify what we're talking about though because the blame here, and I don't know if blame is quite the right word

but the market for this footage is huge right it's not just on tiktok but it is on television

police interceptors police camera action all of these shows glorify these behaviors and today

we're all supposed to sit here clutching our pearls and blaming it all on tiktok and i i despise

most elements of what social media has become in recent years i'm not here to defend them or help

them off the hook. I'm here to point out that we're being a bit hypocritical

aren't we? I think that, yeah, you've got a point there, but I mean

for me, if I ever watched a programme where there was like police interceptors or something like that... But you know that

millions of people do. Yeah, yeah, it just scares the big chances out of me, because

I look at that and think, my God, these people are driving like nutters. Yeah, I do

as well, but I mean, we both recognise that we're not necessarily in the minority, but

there are millions of people who both enjoy watching them on television and then enjoy

watching them when they pop up on um on their social media so if you stop tiktok from posting

these things these crimes these incidents would be less likely to happen i think that's true

and yet at the same time if people didn't want to watch them they wouldn't be appearing on people's

screens in the first place you're controlling it a bit more if you if you don't allow it to be on

TikTok, but if it's like a Channel 5 programme or something like that

it's a more controlled environment, whereas any person with a phone can go on

and put what they like and to an extent glorify what they're doing. I think the point

of police inspectors, police interceptors, is to say, look, this is highly dangerous

this is stupid, this is... I disagree. I disagree. It's not a public safety announcement

Tony. Nobody's tuning in to watch it like Charlie the Cat back in the day telling you not to

get in cars with strangers. People are watching it because they find it thrilling. Surely

I don't know whether my lack of petrol head jeans makes me

supremely qualified to be conducting this conversation or completely unqualified. Because I presume it's exciting

I mean, why do people watch contestants on Top Gear trying to drive as quickly

as they possibly can around a track? What's the appeal of Formula One despite all the dangers

that it entails. And yet you can say that's regulated and that's professional

and that's got health and safety, but the fundamental thrill of watching people travel at great speed

is common to all of these phenomena, isn't it? I guess so. It is, mate

There's probably a base element there of speed. And if I was a younger

version of me, I might be more engaged with it, but being

long in the tooth, it's not something I'm No, fair enough. But, I mean, on the board is the question of why you watch this stuff

and is it the same? Because that is really uncomfortable, right? If you are watching this stuff

and the thrill you get from it is the same thrill that you get

from watching legal or regulated excess speeds. I could be getting things mixed up a bit

Of course I could. It wouldn't be the first time. But from the outside looking in

with a sense of befuddlement and horror at what is unfolding here

I'm trying to work out what we're looking at. And it seems to me that what we're looking at

is not an isolated incident. It's not some weird thing that's sprouted up

in the dark corners of TikTok. It is an appetite that is already extant

and is already very well fed that is now feasting upon new prey

And the prey is people filming themselves, committing crimes endangering their own lives and endangering each other What I want you to do because as I say as I keep saying I not judging anybody here because I pretty sure if I been built a little bit differently I love a lot of the TV programs that we

talking about. But if you do enjoy watching the legal and regulated stuff, how do you feel about

the suggestion that your appetite for, what, excitement, your appetite for thrills, is the

same appetite that these and a lot of words are coming into the studio like scumbags and it's not

one of the days when I'm going to caution people from using language like that you'll understand why I'm not going to use it myself but I find the people engaging in this sort of behavior

profoundly contemptible even as I acknowledge their own families are mourning their own deaths

it's the utter contempt for other people's lives and safety that I find unforgivable in fact and

and almost incomprehensible. But what they are doing is a kind of unregulated or illegal version

of what you like watching. So how much to blame do you think you might be

And how much of the buck are we passing on to social media because some of these questions are too complicated

and they make us too uncomfortable. The number you need is 0345 6060973

Parliament, for the final time tomorrow, will remain in recess. They're back next Wednesday for PMQs and they're back at work next week

which means that this curious August habit of stories that we wouldn't necessarily concern ourselves with continues for another week

And just like Tom Swarbrick before me, I am tempted later in the programme to return to the tale of the fox biting a baby's head

but with a slight twist on the question of what it is that makes us decide

one wild animal is vermin and one wild animal is not. Before that, though, more on this

And with the time approaching half past ten, Dominic Ellis has your headline. James O'Brien on LBC

13.32 is the time. So why do people watch these clips? And is it, and I hope it isn't

but is it the same reason that prompts them to watch some of these programmes on television

that feature police chases? Quite a hefty criticism here, which I think I'm going to have to agree with from Helen

Your own unconscious bias is showing, James. you've referenced TikTok and YouTube and TV shows

but you failed to mention Grand Theft Auto, a video game franchise which literally trains your brain

to be rewarded with dopamine for criminal driving. I'm not saying that all these idiots have been playing it

but I can see how taking it offline into either watching or participating in real life

could be appealing to some people chasing the high. So, yeah, there it is

I enjoy playing that game. It has never prompted... I had one occasion when I was driving my Volkswagen Polo

through West London, and I saw someone on a high-speed motorbike and something in my brain flicked

and I found myself envisioning or picturing myself knocking the person off the bike so I could steal it and roar away

which you do in the game. So if you can't answer the question of what's different

then you have to concede I've got half a point this morning. But it's only half a point, I think

Archie's in Norwich. Archie, what would you like to say? Hi, James, how are you doing

All good, mate. What's on your mind? I would say to your producer

I think a lot of it starts in adolescence and particularly recently

in terms of, I mean I'm only 22 but I have this sort of distinct memory of being

like 13 and sat in a geography class next to a friend of mine who was watching

like a really horrific video and I can't remember specifically what it was. Driving though

Driving based? It wasn't driving based on specific ones but there was lots of that sort of thing that would

go around within a WhatsApp group that they had because this was i think before tiktok was either invented or getting

popular and i think that sort of morbid curiosity starts on any platform it doesn't really matter

whether it's tiktok or youtube or on somebody's playstation or whatever it might be i think that

just comes in at that age when people don't understand what they're seeing and then they

go so quickly that this is exciting or they just you know it's the morbid curiosity of it

and even as much as people can avoid it, like myself, I'm not actually on TikTok

but plenty of videos that I've seen, there's a video of some people from Liverpool

who are driving around and trying to avoid the police, which is really popular

and it's shared around as being a really funny video, but they're driving on pavements

and driving down the wrong side of the road, side of the thing, and I think that can get circulated

no matter what platform you're on. The only thing I could see that one was on Instagram

yeah i don't i don't i mean don't hang on a minute don't get the wrong end of the state i'm not i'm

not putting the black i mean the headlines have mentioned tiktok and i presume that some of the

characters involved in the crimes that we're discussing have got history on that particular

platform but no one's suggesting for a minute that the one is necessarily more to blame than any other

and you're describing a kind of desensitization process being exposed to violence or

bad behaviour of any kind and being less shocked by it with each new exposure

But what's the kick here? So, you know, you mentioned this crowd in Liverpool

Obviously, I'm not familiar with it, but they are endangering other people all the time

if they're driving on pavements and they're doing things like that. And yet people watching it are thrilled and excited

That message from Helen in Manchester is going to haunt me for the rest of this show

It's probably got more to do with Grand Theft Auto, some of this stuff, than it has with television programmes

doesn't it i mean you're driving you're bombing around vice city literally almost i mean

encouraged to i don't know does that sound pathetic i'm supposed to be a big defender of video games

no not so i think i think i think that's completely right i think it's just the thing

where it comes in from like a young like a younger age um like again not to like not saying that you

or anyone is putting a specific blame on on whatever but it's whatever platform people see it on

Why do people watch the films of these clowns in Liverpool that you described

Why do people watch those films? Put it into words for me. I think because in that instance with that specific video

I think it was supposed to be funny. Like it was like a thing where it was like..

All right, then the other films, the so-called joyride vids that even the Prime Minister is now getting exercise about

why do people watch those films? I think because it makes them excited

as long as they're not seeing anyone directly getting hurt or maybe people do want to see that

until they do we're back to your original point about desensitisation 10.37 is the time, I don't know

I love you James but you're wrong on this I don't watch Police Intercept and similar programmes

for the thrill of the chases, I watch it in the hope that the police will catch the criminals

and bring them to justice TikToks are filmed from the perspective of the wrongdoers

and anyone enjoying them are frankly sick, yeah, except they're hoping that their people prevail

As we've just heard from Archie, some people are watching this stuff in the hope of cheering along the people

trying to escape from the police. I don't know. Anyway, someone who will know what he's talking about on this subject

unlike me, is James May, former presenter of Top Gear, who's on the line from Twickenham

Unless, of course, you're an imposter. I hope that your credentials have been properly checked, James

I think they have, yes. Good morning. Good morning. What's on your mind? Well, I just wanted to pull you up on one thing

You are talking about the petrol head gene, which you don't have, and I don't blame you

But please, please understand that real petrolheads and car enthusiasts hate the sort of thing you're talking about

because it ultimately gives cars a bad name. We're not watching it thinking, wow, that's fantastic

People who really love cars and people who like driving cars fast go to things like track days

where everything is regulated and everything is very safety conscious. We're really not into this stuff. It's very, very bad for our hobby

Yeah, that makes perfect sense to me, and possibly pushes me from thinking I'm supremely qualified

to be conducting this conversation to thinking that I'm perhaps uniquely unqualified

But, I mean, bearing in mind that you are a member of a different tribe then

from the people who enjoy these kind of films, why do people watch them, do you think

Well, I mean, I don't watch many of them. No, I know you don't, nor do I

Unless they're pushed at me. And I haven't really, I'm not a particular fan of things like Grand Theft Auto

and I don't play very many video games. But I sort of agree with you

When I have watched the police camera action type things, it's in the hope that people either

well, not wipe themselves out, but, you know, mess it up. Get caught

Yes, or they get caught and, you know, given a bit of a slap. I don't really know what drives, I mean, the whole

what seems to be a fashion now for driving down motorways and dual carriageways the wrong way

It's just absolute madness. I can't imagine what would drive somebody to do that and think it was fun

Well, I mean, if you can't imagine it, then what the hell chance have the rest of us got

Because taking on board all of your points about the difference between being an enthusiast for this kind of thing and being an idiot

you, to coin a phrase, James, you feel the need for speed

You are excited by high-performance cars doing high-performance things. and yet you find this as baffling, I think, as I do

the fun of this process. Well, I've just driven, I'm on my way back to London from Wiltshire

I've obviously pulled over at the side of the road because that would have been too much ammunition for you otherwise

I've driven a long way up the A303 and the M3, all of it's on the correct side of the road

at fairly reasonable speeds, I must say. So here we are, completely befuddled as to what is going on

except perhaps for the idea that it's a little bit too simplistic to blame it all on TikTok, or indeed blame it all on

certainly to blame it all on a petrolhead gene. I would agree with you about not automatically blaming TikTok and social media

because I've always thought that's a bit like blaming Ryman's for people that things write on A4 pads

And I don't know that necessarily seeing it. I mean, some of this stuff does crop up on my..

I mean, I use Twitter quite a lot, X as it's now known, and I do see some of these things pop up because they're pushed into your feed

but it doesn't make me want to do it. And I did watch a documentary about World War II the other day

but I didn't then go and bomb Zez did. Thank goodness. I don't know if you're aware of it

but I do have a little thing that I do for when people contribute to the programme

from a position of unlikely qualification. So I'm going to do that for you, James May, if I may

I'm Ray Liotta, and you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. If you build it, they will come

That's the biggest compliment I can pay you. so thank you very much it is 10.41

and if James May whose career of course has been built not just on cars, he also does

some really good stuff about toys but if he is as baffled by this as I am

then clearly to attribute it to some sort of contagious petrol head gene is incorrect

so no one can actually or no one yet has answered the question

of why people watch this footage and what it is they are getting out of it that

that distinguishes it in a way from things that are not criminal

except the desire to see the criminals caught. If you're watching a television programme

you want to see the criminals caught. If you're watching the criminals, if you're watching this footage being posted

from the criminals' perspective, is it literally just cops and robbers? You want the robbers to win

and those of us who are slightly more responsible citizens want the cops to win

10.42 is the time. Sarah is in Hove. Sarah, what would you like to say? Hi, James. Nice to talk to you

So my heart is fluttering extraordinarily, having listened to James May. Do you have a crush on him

Yes, I thought you might, Sarah. It's nothing to do with me, your fluttering heart, is it

I'm just the landlord of this joint. What do you want to say? Well, what I want to say is, obviously, this is a very, very complex issue

It goes far outside of cars and everything. I was a teacher for 40 years

I know that all young men have a desperate need to be dangerous at a certain time in life, right

And, you know, in the past, lots of tribes who had initiation ceremonies

a history of us with things like scouting and stuff like that

have tried to create a structured environment for them to do some dangerous stuff

and begin to experience what it's really like, but in relative safety

None of that exists anymore. We've got millions of cars on the road

Cars are the thing. Cars are the go-to medium for being dangerous

So this is then being exploited by all the social media channels

who put this stuff on because they know people are going to be driven to watch it

because it's the only access they have to being dangerous. And then some of them, sadly, go out and do it

There's no, I mean, you say sadly, it's hard to muster up sympathy for the young men involved in these crimes

Oh, absolutely. Except the most basic human sympathy. But they are entirely responsible not only for their own deaths

but also for the deaths of PC Matthew Blades and PC Tom Clough

We make no bones about that. No, no, no, absolutely. And pointing out that this is a social media phenomenon

doesn't take off a single scintilla of their responsibility for all seven of these deaths

But what you say about young men and danger is just true, isn't it? It's just historically true

It is historically true. And the problem is that, I mean, I have a partner who is in his 60s

He's a petrolhead. He loves to drive faster. We have to do regular trips abroad so he can drive faster than he's allowed

But legally, and therefore responsibly, the thrill is... I mean, the thrill is different

I'm trying to think of an ogy for someone like me who doesn't really do it in cars

but those things that I would enjoy doing in a properly regulated environment

I wouldn't dream of doing in public. Frankly, he would do it here

if he didn't have opportunities to go and do it where it's legal

And if he didn't have a structure behind him, which is me

providing those opportunities, and making them okay so that he doesn't need to do it in an illegal way

Well, thank God he's got you, and goodness knows where he'd be if he didn't. I thought that you were being a bit more, what would the word be

Not excusing him, but not lumping him in with the people doing wrong

In fact, you're saying if it wasn't for you and opportunity, he would indeed be doing the things that are wrong Although your point about violence has triggered an extraordinary response actually and all of it positive You just right Middle men forget what young men were like It one of the great I don know boons of maturity or one of the great curses of

getting older. Sometimes I catch myself thinking, you scumbag yobbos, and I need to give my head a

little bit of a wobble and remember some of the stuff that we considered to be relatively good fun

when we were young, you know. I had one friend, and not even putting other people in danger

but I had one friend who would come out of nightclubs in the middle of central London and climb scaffolding

That was his thing. That was the thing that he did in no fit state, frankly, to drive a car

And yet he would absolutely climb scaffolding. And we thought it was hilarious

Not quite hilarious enough ever to join him, but now you'd be, look at that stupid yobbo

What on earth does he think he's doing? 30 years ago, 40 years, no, not quite that old

35 years ago, that was just my mate. As is often the way on these matters

Mike Skinner has the last word. This text has been sent anonymously, but it quotes a tract from..

Is it a grand don't come for free? Is it from the... It's certainly from the streets

Geezers need excitement. If their lives don't provide them this, they incite violence

Common sense, simple common sense. There you go, the words of the streets

reaching parts that other philosophers have failed completely. to uh arrive at james o'brien on lbc 49 is the time my ordinarily bleeding heart liberalism on

hold today because i can't muster up anything close to and not what i want to um anything other

than contempt deep contempt for the people who engage in this sort of behavior but the question

of why you post it on social media of course is a little bit more um nuanced why would you post

anything hideous on social media. Why do people troll? Why do racists

do racism? And the answer is they get something out of it. And I guess the more

empty your life is, the more likely you are to get something out of being vile

on social media. I mean, it's a tragedy, but I suppose the

worst thing you can say to somebody in that sort of situation is, have you really got nothing

better to do with your time? To which they also, no, I haven't. I really

haven't. And then you've got nowhere else to go. You're like Alan Partridge in that

clip where you just sort of go, oh, okay. You've actually got nothing better to do than that. No? I've got nothing

better to do than this. This is my life. This is what I do. Okay

That is a zeitgeist issue. That's something about our age. There's another

story in the news today about Rupert Lowe making more money now, posting

hate on the social, on X, on Twitter, or at least making as much

money doing that via what Elon musk has done to twitter than he does actually being an mp so i think it was sandy shore who

who sang puppet on a string wasn't it but it would appear very few people are immune to the thrill

of social media approbation whether you are um channeling joseph goebbels or driving cars at

enormous speed the rewards are there whether they're financial or whether they are um simply

sort of metrics simply clicks and giggles um that's the question for the for our age but the

question about where this behavior comes from is very very specific to people who engage in this

sort of behavior and and james may's point about genuine car enthusiasts wanting these idiots bang

up even more than the average person does not his phrase it's a phrase that mcnoodles has attributed

to him james may making a fantastic point their car enthusiasts want these idiots banged up

probably more than the average person does is one that was entirely missing from my ysis which um

which is why this is a phone-in show. Neil's in Bedford. Neil, what would you like to say

Good morning, James. How are you doing? I'm all good, mate. What's on your mind? I'm going to sort this

Is it nerves or is it a delay on the line? I'm going to bear with you and we'll find out

but there's nothing to be nervous about. It's only me. Okay. So, I'm a driving instructor

and I have been for the last 15 years. Yeah. So, I've seen this on many, many different occasions

And one of the biggest things I've noticed is that a lot of young people seem to think that driving is actually like a video game

Really? You would say that as a driving instructor? Because I've had a couple of people, I think there's one on the other line actually, cross about the idea that video games have any role to play in this conversation

No, I would actually say that it does have a major factor

and the reason I say that is because we've had some very close calls

because they're driving too fast, they're driving too close, they're taking too many risks

I pulled them over and actually said, right, what will actually happen if we were to collide here

And their answer is, I'd have a crash. In that blase response

And that's because their only experience up until that point has been via a screen

Yeah. I believe you. I mean, you're not speaking ex-cathedra. You're not the Pope channeling the word of God unchallenged

So people are perfectly entitled to not believe you or to challenge what you're saying

But I believe you. I believe that if I got behind the wheel of a car

for the very first time after five years straight of playing Grand Theft Auto Vice City

I would have been a very different pupil for you from the one that I would have been

if I'd been reading Narnia books and playing Jet Set Willy. Yeah, and the sad thing is that the vast majority of new drivers

between the ages of 17 to 24, one in five is likely to have a serious accident

within the first six months of passing. But that was probably always true

Has that got worse in recent years? I mean, the most dangerous drivers have always been the most recently qualified

Well, actually, some of the most dangerous drivers are the ones that have been driving for the longest

No, but I mean statistically. Because they suddenly become very complacent. No, I know, but I mean, this is in grave peril of turning into a motoring phone-in

and we certainly don't want that. But I'm talking about statistically. I don't know whether the numbers you just shared about 17 to 24-year-olds are new

or whether they're part of an established trend. It's easy to find out

But your point there, from the seat with the dual controls, from the driving instructor's seat in the car

spotting the changes that you attribute to video games, And I, you know, despite the fact that this is uncomfortable for me

because I've spent my whole life arguing that playing video games has no influence whatsoever on how you behave in the offline world

I'm beginning to think, well, I'm beginning to wonder, let's just say

Rob's in Vendée in France. Rob, what made you pick up the phone

Hello, James. Thanks for taking the call. I may have missed the point of the last year

because I've missed the last year, so I hope I'm not repeating anything. but I used to work for the police

in the north of England doing working on the ANPR cameras oh yeah

which was a brilliant job I really miss it it was fantastic

and we often would have the guys from the Channel 5 programs

would come in and film us they film us in the control room and then they be out with the police on scene in the cars filming the same incident The point is I don want you or anybody else to miss the point

the actual, the major point of the thing. That's not comparable for me with the whole TikTok thing

because it's not glorifying the poor driving and the dangerous stuff. It's effectively

highlighting where these people are, you know, causing danger. And mostly they would end with the guys getting arrested

So you watch these programmes and you are rooting for the police officers

Well, yeah, pretty well. I mean, I used to do the job. I was there with my colleagues. And I worked in North Yorkshire, which borders Cleveland

So I would know people who knew the officer who died at the weekend

And so, you know, I'm wrapped up in that a little bit. but the main point is it's not comparable

to say that the programmes like Channel 5, whatever it is, police camera action, those things

traffic cops, they're not glorifying the baddies and the poor driving. They are actually highlighting the whole point

that it's incredibly dangerous and stupid. The only thing I've got here

and it could be just me being stubborn, but the difficulty of answering the question

about what you get out of watching these films all these programs, all these clips

Hang on, just the base dopamine hit is the same. All that changes is who you're rooting for while you're watching it

Well, it's happened. It's real life and it's happening. I know, but this isn't a hill I want to die on

but, you know, I'm trying to get inside the head of people

two and a half million people have watched some of these clips. What are they getting out of it

answer. They're getting the same thing out of it that people who watch programs

like the ones you're talking about watch. They're just rooting for a different team. They're just rooting for

the other side. Well, it's not exactly like a football match because one side's

rooting for people to get away with a lot of very bad things. Which is disgusting

but it doesn't make me wrong. Well, it kind of... So who are they rooting for? What are they getting out of it

Well, normally, it depends. I mean, a lot of baddies probably watch it. Team scum. Yeah, a lot of people

on the criminal side would probably watch it to see how they could get away... Not two and a half million people, mate

No, no, exactly. That's my point. That's my point. Is that most people who would be watching that

would be actually... would be supporting the forces of law and order

and trying to, you know, and seeing... But the thrill they're getting

the distilled thrill they're getting is the same regardless of who they're supporting

All right. James, James, have you actually seen the programme? I've seen police camera action a bit, yeah

You have. I mean, most of them are not just pure pursuits with, you know, let's take on the police

Helicopters in the sky. Yeah, they do that. They absolutely do that

People are hiding in hedges. And you're rooting for the police. Of course you are

But what is the dopamine hit that the people watching the criminals evade the police getting

If you distilled it down to chemicals, the chemicals would be the same

Yeah, I mean, obviously there's an entertainment value in it. Otherwise they wouldn't put it on the TV

you know it was a bit I mean when I was there they'd come in

and film us there and we always thought it was a little bit you know sometimes

there was an element, they'd interview us as well but I think mostly

they were very balanced and they were very respectful and we're back to Reimans then

we're back to James' point about you know if somebody sends poison pen letters

you don't blame Reimans for it I mean it needs a little bit of work

I think that position but you've got two completely different things that have a commonality they have something in common

you shouldn't stress too much about the commonality focus upon the things that are right and the things

that are wrong um 10 59 is the time i'm going to say their names again with your permission because

i think it's important and it is uh it's always sad to see names like pc matthew blades and pc tom

Clough fade away from the forefront of a story as we cover inevitably more arrests charges brought

I think in one case this morning and of course then broader conversations about the entire

phenomenon of these glamorizing of dangerous driving it's 11 o'clock James O'Brien on LBC

four minutes after 11 is the time and turn our attention next to it's probably the biggest issue

of our time in terms of issues that were not as big in other times. Some of the stuff that we talk

about is timeless, right? Like education, I suppose, or even defence, other issues that

come around sort of box fresh that we've never really discussed before, although they're often

variations on the same theme, aren't they? Moral panics might be about video games or TikTok videos

but we've had moral panics in the past about everything from, you know, Hollywood films to

translating the Bible into English. We are tuned, we are fine-tuned as a species

to be frightened and angered by things. It's the ability to control that fear and anger

that can deliver some of the biggest prizes that our planet has to offer to unscrupulous people

But if I look at the conversations we've been having for the last 20 years or so

then an awareness of and interest in and an appreciation of the importance of mental health

would be very near the top of the list. It's hard to believe that when we started doing it on this programme

from a particularly male perspective, it felt revolutionary. It felt revolutionary

We did it initially, I think organically, as everything on this programme begins

It just sort of came out of a story. we opened up the phone lines and we got taken aback by the response

And then it segued for a while, and going back a long time now

into military personnel, ex-military people struggling with their mental health, which was like a kind of an unopened chapter of the entire story

It's still not the case that these men and women receive the support

that they both need and deserve, but compared to what that was like when we started the conversation..

I'm sorry, when we started talking about it, I'm not for a minute claiming the credit for starting the conversation

Charities that I subsequently got involved with were working in that space

Most obviously, in my case, a charity called Combat Stress, but they were often, it felt, shouting into the void about the help that was needed

That has got a lot better. And then after that, you move into the realms of general mental health issues

And then I got particularly interested in young people's mental health because of one single statistic that was shared with me by a mother, by a concerned mother

And it was about the number of CAMS units, Children and Young Adults Mental Health Services, that couldn't even find time for an appointment with you unless your child or unless you had reached the end, the very end of your tether

it was an unbelievable statistic that I couldn quite accept until I checked for myself So it a good thing right that we now talk about mental health a lot more

It's possible that we can talk about it too much. You're aware of an increasing tendency to criticize and insult young people

when they talk a little bit glibly, perhaps, or a little bit too fluently for some of us oldies

about their mental health. I kind of did it myself at the top of the show this morning when I talked about sometimes perhaps not wanting to dive into a topic as enthusiastically as I could because I'm worried about the impact it might have on my mental health

I mean, it is just a desire not to be sad, a desire not to be low level, not medically depressed

Do you see what I mean? So that conversation, if we'd had it yesterday, about the two police officers killed in Cleveland, that just felt so raw, I suppose, is the word that I'd use

But that's normal. We've always done that. We just use different language now to describe it

There are three stories in the news today about mental health. and I want to share all of them with you

and quite funny really to reflect that one of them comes from the showbiz pages

one of them comes from albeit via Men's Health magazine one of them comes from polling

it's a statistics story that looks at polling conducted by Mind the mental health charity

and one of them essentially looks at prescriptions and tries to turn it into a front page story

No prizes for guessing which newspaper looks at prescriptions and then turns it into a front page story

And remember, front page stories are designed to either make you frightened or angry

So what you are supposed to be frightened or angry about in response to news that there is a record number of people on antidepressants, I'm not entirely sure

Except to acknowledge that growing sense that we're supposed to be. We're being encouraged to be a bit sceptical now

Little bit cynical. Especially if you're young. in my day we just pull our socks up and also cancel your netflix prescription subscription

and stop eating avocados and so you know what i mean that temptation to look down on people

because we didn't have names for this condition when i was your age or we didn't have room for

this kind of self-care when i was your age it's growing all the time you know it is

here are the three stories uh story number one record one in seven on antidepressants as pill

use rockets one in seven people in england were prescribed antidepressants last year

and the daily mode describes these figures as worrying which is i don't know probably fair

enough um the star of ted lasso brett goldstein who is an incredible force for good in the world

has given an interview to men's health magazine in which he talks about being depressed and

talks about how a gratitude journal changed him um in other words he felt there was nothing good

going on in the world and a therapist encouraged him to write a journal listing at least 10 things

he was grateful for. And as he said, in the beginning, there was nothing. You're so, so

depressed. You've got like nothing to write down, but you have to fill in 10 different things

So you start with, and he had to do it every day. So you start with the sun is up. That's one. And

by day 30, he says, you started training your brain to look for the positive. There's definitely

some truth in that. And then story number three, mental health professionals are struggling to give

patients the standard of care they need amid staffing issues and of course with more people

presenting with complex problems. So in many ways they all speak to the same thing which is an uptick

in our acknowledgement of and understanding of mental health. But they also speak to the same

thing in terms of the inadequacy of resources to deal with it. So some of the people that have been

prescribed antidepressants in the daily mail story might actually have benefited from the kind

of therapy that brett goldstein is talking about in his men's health interview and had they received

that kind of therapy which is expensive and and hard to access sometimes or indeed just simply

hard to access because it is expensive then they might not have needed the prescription or the gp

that has given the prescription might have preferred to send them for a talking cure might

have preferred to send them for psychotherapy but doesn't have the resources or the wherewithal or

the funding to do so so a little packet of pills is the only option open to the gp in that kind of

scenario and then you've got the third story about mental health professionals not being able to give

patients the standard of care that they need because of staffing issues and a big increase

in the number of people presenting prompting one mental health nurse to describe or to tell mind

the mental health charity, it often feels like firefighting. I get so upset that I do not have

the resources available to provide the care, support and treatment that is needed. It's the

same story, isn't it? Three different headlines, three different sources, three different newspapers

It's exactly the same story. It's a story about more and more people feeling and seeking help with

their mental health. It's a story about a system that is not able to provide it on anything like

the scale that the mental health professionals would like to. And it's a story about the sort

of help that they might get, that you might get, that we might get in alternative to medication

albeit that often medication is the only and best response to some mental health problems

Depression in particular is what we're talking about today. That's what Brett Goldstein is

talking about and that's what most of the mental health professionals struggling to give patients

and standard of care that they need will be dealing with it's about the other things that

you might get or you might do in the absence of medication it's the same story and it is i would

argue particularly with these figures that are um presented today on on the front page of the daily

mail in red i mean if you think i exaggerate when they say you're supposed to be angry or frightened

of something, why the hell would you put the numbers in red? In bright red. Record one in

seven. It's literally an alarm. Well, it's the colour of alarm. It's the colour of shock. One in

seven in red. So you are not being encouraged to go, oh, blimey, that's awful. How can we make

things better for these people? You're being encouraged to do something different from that

I don't know what, because it's not working on me, but am I being encouraged to not believe them

to call them malingering liars, to start talking about robustness and resilience

I don't know, but it's in red, so I'm supposed to be angry. Literally. I'm the bull

That's the rag. That's the red rag. But we're not going to do that, obviously

What we're going to do is this. We're going to have two conversations this hour, one of which we've had before

but I think it's important to have it again every now and then, once or twice a year, it usually works out

And the second bit of it is an invitation to you to be a bit like Brett Goldstein

this morning because you know this has been lifted from a long interview in men's health magazine and

it has been condensed into three paragraphs and it could if you were so minded be presented in a way

that left him open to mockery or criticism but we're not going to do that either we're going to

recognize that good therapy in this case really works and the good therapy that he received and the one example

of it that is picked up on in this pre-seat of his interview was a gratitude journal

You're sitting there feeling that the world is a place that you can no longer cope with

and someone suggests you write a gratitude journal, you could be forgiven for laughing

in their face. But that would be a mistake because it works for some people in some cases and in some contexts

And this, of course, is across all the ages. You know, this is not about young people, middle-aged people or old people

The one in seven people in England being prescribed antidepressants last year will come from every single demographic and every single age group

and every single corner of the country, although there is a regional divide

with antidepressant use highest in North Cumbria and South Yorkshire. In affluent London, the rate is often half

But in affluent London, in the affluent parts of London, a lot of people will be getting therapy

They will not be going for the prescription option first and only

The only path that's open to you is the doctor giving you some pills. People don't want to do that first for understandable reasons

So there are two questions that I've got for you. The second of which I've never asked you before

and I want to ask you today, actually. It's what worked for you

But before we get to that, question number one is, for people accepting the Daily Mail's invitation to be sceptical or cynical or angry about this story, and seriously, no one can argue that you don't stick a statistic in bright red unless you're encouraging people to be angry, right

We can all begin with a little bit of agreement about that. for people tempted to accept that invitation to be angry about other people's illness

what is the difference between being depressed in a medical sense going to the doctor with

depression that that is the question that i have for you essentially i want you to tell why did you

go to the doctor with depression or what was going on in your life what what state were you in when

the doctor told you that you were depressed okay because what i want to do if i can is

pinpoint the difference define the difference between depression on a medical level and

depression in the way that we ordinarily all use the word so killer mr harriers one nil up

Aldershot down to nine men on Saturday afternoon. I'm there in the crowd rooting for them

and somehow they equalized despite only having nine men against our 11

and I therefore would describe myself as depressed. How are you feeling

I'm pretty depressed actually. We conceded an equalizer to nine men with 10 minutes to go

But I'm not depressed. I'm not a criticism by the way of anyone who uses the word in that context

because we literally all do. I do. but I want to get that difference nailed down today

for the benefit of people who don't know what it's like and who might be susceptible to the Daily Mail's propaganda

and not just the Daily Mail, of course there'll be people who do what I do for a living

who would lift that story straight from the front page of the Daily Mail

and turn it into another invitation, a radio invitation or a television invitation to get angry with the poorly people

because we've got to take a day off from the small boat we've got to take a day off from the foreign people

so let's get angry with the poorly people today. And yeah, all right, you know someone who's swinging the lead

but that's not what this story is about. This story is about people who are telling the truth

And you could be one of them. What is the difference between being depressed about this, that or the other

and having a medical condition? 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need

Because I tell you, honestly, absolutely hand on heart, 10 years ago, I'd have laughed at Brett Goldstein

for talking about a gratitude journal. It's not something I've ever done. I've had some fantastic therapy

but I've not done that. I haven't needed to do that because I've never actually been depressed

But I'd have laughed at that. I'd have said, I'll come off it. A gratitude journal, whatever

I was that person. So I have some sympathy for the ease with which you can succumb to the Daily Mail's invitation

to be angry and ignorant about other people's problems. So today, I get it

I had to read it twice. I had to think, really? A gratitude journal? And then he explains

You've got to write down 10 things to be happy about every single day. And it recalibrates you

It re-engineers your personality. Or it re-engineers your mood to wake up in the morning and think about things that make you happy

What do you do if you've got a sad child? Or a sad parent

Or a sad partner? You try and remind them of the things that make them happy

And it doesn't really work because they're sad. But if you can somehow help them into a place where they're doing it for themselves

and they're finding the things that make themselves happy, I don't know, a sunset, a bird singing in a tree, whatever it may be

if you can actually somehow re-engineer your own brain chemistry to go down that road

then you're going to get better. Things are going to be better. And of course, if you can't afford that, or you can't access that

or you haven't got that in your life, and you do go to the doctor, then the doctor is left with little choice but to give you some pills

And for many, many people, the pills are the right option and they work

So that could be your answer to my second question. In fact, it needs to be. For some of the people ringing in, it needs to be the correct answer

But what worked for you? So what is the difference between depression in a medical sense

and depression in the way that the rest of us use the word? 03456060973

And what worked? what worked? So you have to know that you were in a darker place than most, right

You weren't just annoyed about the football or, you know, hacked off about the fifth episode of Reach

and not having dropped yet, despite the fact that you sat down last night with your dinner and were really looking forward to watching it

Those kind of things. So you know that you were in a much darker place than normal

And what helped get you out of it? If it was pills? 0-3-4-5-6-0-6-0-9-7-3

It's important to hear your voice this morning. If it wasn't pills, 03456060973

You probably noticed. It's the same number. James O'Brien on LBC. It is 23 minutes after 11

On a lighter note than the conversation we're going to have next, Sarah throws us back into the last hour of the programme

And she says, I've always been baffled that there was any audience for these programmes

talking about the sort of police chase programmes on the television. She says, you have enlightened me, James

Now do storage wars. That's a great... I mean, I quite like those shows

People break open storage units and then sort of fight over what's inside them

and sometimes turn up some extraordinary stuff. I don't know. I don't know what the appeal of that is, Sarah, I'm afraid

But I'm glad that I've met half of your challenge this morning and you now have a full understanding

of why people watch those kind of programs. 23 After 11 is the time

We're talking about mental health, the huge surge in the number of people being diagnosed with it and largely just being prescribed antidepressants we wondering what else works and we also wondering what it is in the context of the rest of us using that word to describe disappointment or sadness but depression

being something clinically different simon's in frimley simon what made you pick up the phone

oh yeah james my second call to you so thanks i didn't expect to be ringing you back so quick

actually from last week or so um but i'm very passionate about this subject because i've

suffered from depression all my life that has never stopped me working or you know functioning

but i've stood on bridges next to rivers had packets of pills blah blah blah so i've had it

bad one one of the things that i don't like about the discussion of depression actually is

fundamentally calling it a mental illness and i think your distinction of is it pills is it therapy

hides the fact that a lot of people, just from the fact it's described as mental illness

forget there is a physical illness. As in chemicals in your brain

Chemicals in your brain. So the pattern you'll see is long-term stress

trauma, anxiety, problems, traumatic events can trigger the chemical changes. And then you start to get, you know

that causes the effects of depression. tablets are designed to put the physical conditions

back into a normal enough state that you can then process and deal with the mental aspects

of what is causing the underlying depression. So actually, just taking tablets does help

but it doesn't necessarily solve the underlying issue that sent you there in the first place

and that's where the therapy comes in. You make important points. I suppose part of the problem is that you can't

I don't think you can diagnose depression with a blood test, can you? No

Yet. But for those with severe depression, and I think this probably sits under why it was the largest killer of men

under 45 years of age, is that the people who have it probably know very well

that they are suffering something way beyond the, you know, depression from all the shots using

Or the shot drew, actually. Not to split hairs. But I wonder about that

I'm not challenging what you're saying because you're obviously speaking from experience. But if you've only ever known that

then are you actually going to need a little bit of help in recognizing that you don't have to feel that way

You do, absolutely. So I've been suffering looking backwards, and hindsight's a powerful thing

I've been on and off serious depression since I was 16. And it wasn't until later in my life, probably into my late 40s, that I actually realized I had been suffering many sequences of depression throughout my life, untreated, led to some fairly poor outcomes for me at times

So, yes, but there's a lot more information out there today in terms of online, even social media, some excellent social media groups that allow people to come on and anonymously talk about how they feel and identify it

And a lot of people with experience will say, yeah, you know, you need to go and get help

You need to go and see your GP, which is your first protocol. Try and get some tablets because it won't fix your problem, but it will fix your thing

So I use an ogy quite often, which is if you go and break your leg and your bone's snapped

you don't bother, you don't do, you can't do physiotherapy until you've been in a cast and your bone is healed

then you can go and do the physiotherapy afterwards and that's the same with that's a

beautiful it's a perfect ogy what what i mean you don't have to do this but if if there were

someone listening to this who is you know like pavlov's dog responding to the bright red numbers

in the headline on the front page of the daily mail this morning and feeling angry or suspicious

or fearful and cynical and skeptical and dismissive taking a day off from the foreigners instead

focusing on the people claiming to be poorly. How do you describe to them that what you experience

is not what they experience when they're feeling a bit blue? That's hard

So for me, it was persistent mental pain of the type. Imagine the thing that you love the most

whether it be your partner, your child, your pet dog, and the grief that you felt

that overwhelming pain and sadness you felt from that loss. And then take that and experience it every day of your life

for month after month after month until you can't deal with that pain anymore

and there's no solution. And so the only way out is to end it

That is the level of pain that people live with. So an unbearable bleakness of existence

Unbearable grief that you cannot take out of your head, you cannot shake off, that never gets better

No amount of talking to your relatives when, as you say, what would you say to somebody who's never experienced it

It'd be like any massive pain, if you've never experienced a physical pain

you've never broken your leg. Imagine breaking your leg every single day of your life

while you've got depression and that pain. How would you describe that to somebody

And someone says, yeah, I get a bit stiff in the morning, you know. I've sat there wrong, I get a pain in the leg

I remember when I started in this job, and I did it with my tongue in my cheek

but when people, women would talk about childbirth and I'd say, well, I had a toothache once, it can't be that bad

It was a really bad thing. But I was being an idiot. Because plenty of people in the scenarios that you describe

think that they're actually contributing something valid to the conversation. Is the second bit of my phoning wrong then

when I say what worked for you? Is that... It's not, is it

Because there are ways out of this, and your answer would be pills were part and still are part of it

but other things as well. Yeah, it's more complicated than that. Of course it is

Of course it is. Even on the pills, if you... And I'm a member of various, you know, very large numbers of groups

of people on groups within things like Facebook, where it is genuinely useful

and what you'll see is a lot of people discussing I've tried this pill and it did nothing for me

every pill is different you can't just, there is no depression pill

that you can go on there's dozens of them and some will work for some people

it took me five before I reached the right pill to get the one that actually did so you need a good doctor

you need a good doctor, you need to be patient you need that support

and that did work and I still take the pills one of the problems people have

is they feel better after six months on the pills so they come off them

because you can't tell whether you're getting better because your underlying mental state is fixed

your physical state is fixed, or that the pills are keeping you afloat. And until you come off them, and that's the dangerous bit

then that's when depression can come back with a vengeance. So you need ongoing support

These aren't pills that solve or fix a disease. You can be on them for many years if not life And there shouldn be any shame or stigma attached to that any more than there would be somebody with a bad leg using a crutch

Exactly. There's Daily Mail saying there's so many people with broken arms

To me, it makes me angry because it is a physical illness

It's a worrying figure, mate. One in seven people have got a broken leg. It's a very worrying figure

And I hope this isn't an inappropriate question. what do you also really value apart from medicine

What do you think does actually? And I appreciate that sometimes the tunnel is so dark

that you can't ever imagine getting out of it. But things, because I don't think that Brett Goldstein's comments

about gratitude journals are unhelpful in the broader conversation. And everybody's different

Just as some medicine works on some people and doesn't work on others, some of these medicines can make things worse for people

until they find the one that makes things better. That's often missing from the conversation

but do you have something that does make a big difference to you as well? Well, a number of things

First of all, understanding depression and losing the shame over it means I can keep an eye on myself, and my wife does as well

So she knows from my face, you know, if I'm starting to go downhill

and then I'll take proactive action to go back on my pills and keep going

In terms of therapy, yeah, therapy has worked to some extent, and I've tried a number of things

but again it often comes down to not the therapy but the therapist so you have to separate the

person that you're talking to regardless of that and there's you know a list as long as your arm of

depression therapy is all different but actually if you hit it off and you and you gel with the

therapist then i think many techniques will will work but the best thing actually is is a lot of

People, you know, when you talk about neurodivergence on the program a lot and masking, that's the biggest issue for depression is the shame at work

And also the fact, you know, like the Daily Mail, that so many people just cannot comprehend what you're going through because it's a hidden illness and what you feel like

And so one masks. And the best therapy I found is actually finding other people who are depressed and going through it in different stages and talking

And there are a lot of charities now, the men, especially, and obviously there are women's one, but my experience is the men's one where you can get together, go and have a coffee, stay in chat groups and things with other blokes who are feeling depression

and actually talking to somebody who's going through it who genuinely understands as well

goes a hell of a long way to actually making you feel better making you feel heard stopping you

feeling alone as you go through that process and that would be my recommendation to anybody

is do not try and tackle this alone and do not expect if you're young your parents to understand

the stiff upper lip just pull your socks up all of that causes people to mask and hide the depression

and then you end up in that situation where well i thought he was fine and next day the police are

at your door going we found him in the woods which is we had no idea and that's because of the masking

yeah of course it is the very face the stiff upper lip and of course a society that until very very

recently didn't acknowledge the danger that that kind of mindset can do you're a star simon thank

you so much you would have helped an awful lot of people simply by speaking so clearly and so

dispassionately about your own experiences and your own life i did falls to me of course to

remind everybody listening that we are not neither simon nor i are medical professionals and that

if it is advice that you think that you need then you should seek that from medical professionals

i also at this point in the conversation routinely remind you that one of the places you can go but

by no means the only one is is the samaritans who are available 24 7 um uh and they're on 116

123 if any of the issues that simon just discussed and um and touched upon are perfect but particularly

relevant to you at the moment then that is one of the places you can go but that line there they're

just talking to people who know what it's like he says it out loud it's blimmin obvious isn't it

but sometimes you need to hear people say something out loud to realize how obvious it is

Here's Dominic Ellis with your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC. It is 11.38

You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC, where the, yeah, I mean, someone's got to do it, haven't they

The Daily Mail is encouraging you to be either angry or suspicious or both

about the record number of people being prescribed antidepressants. Normal people would respond by wondering what it is about the world that we inhabit

that is prompting these diagnoses. And number two, what else perhaps could be done about it if pills really aren't the answer

Although for many, many people they will be. With Simon's very, very important explanation a moment ago that there is no one pill

Some of the stories I've heard about people being prescribed one type of antidepressant having a terrible response to it

And as Simon said, for him it was three, four, five goes later that they actually found the medication that was correct

and that is largely what psychiatrists do. Most people will never see a psychiatrist

They're lucky if they see a psychotherapist, but it will be the GP that makes these prescriptions

But if you get to see a psychiatrist, then the experimenting, really, with medicine

medicinal combinations, until you actually see the reaction in the patient that you're hoping for, is a huge part of what they do

1140 is the time. And, of course, with that little knowledge that there aren't really any alternatives to proper treatment

but I do like the idea of things you were surprised made a difference to you, okay

Including and in addition to medication. Ellen is in Nottingham. Ellen, what made you pick up the phone

Hi, James, that's taking my call. Sorry if I sound a bit hoarse. I'm a little unwell at the moment

I don't know why you sound like the rest of the time, so we're fine. um i just called in because i've got what i think is maybe a slightly unique perspective

as i'm a mental health professional but i've also had my own problems with mental health right um in the past um i just want to briefly gently challenge what you said about psychiatrist

experimenting with medication though before i go on to my main point in that we like to think we

have a fairly good diagnostic process we try and understand what's going on with people and we know

that different medications are good for different things so although it might take a bit of um kind

of figuring out what the best option is for someone we always know like a narrow range of

where to start yeah i did i mean i didn't mean to suggest otherwise but if you thought that i was

doing then your clarification is doubly welcome sure thank you so speaking personally what's

helped for me is um i've been very fortunate to access long-term private therapy which has helped

me hugely over the years um i've had mental health problems on and off since my late teens

and initially what helped me was NHS provision so medication short-term therapy and that fixed me

up pretty well for a while and I was very lucky in that case because a lot of people that doesn't

work and as time gone on what I found most helpful is long therapy that keeps me well rather than trying to treat things as and when I get worse Okay so yeah that like a sort of tending to you to your needs

to your care rather than responding to crisis moments. Yes, but most people don't have access to that

No, they don't. Because it's expensive. The NHS only provides very short access to therapy

And in my work as a mental health professional, what I see all the time is that people need help that is not available

whether that be social support better housing proper child care employment support it's just

not there and a lot of the time what we're left with is stuff that we know might help people a

little bit that isn't going to fix them and that is that is going that that is going to be part of

the um prescribing process isn't it there are going to be people being prescribed antidepressants

in good faith by good medical professionals who wish they could do something more or something else

exactly yeah and it's just been such a huge threat for us as professionals because we

we want to help the person in front of us the absolute best we can but often what's within our

control is a really limited amount which is usually short courses of therapy long waiting

for longer therapy or medication and we only prescribe medication if we know it's going to

help somebody but there's a difference between helping somebody and fixing somebody that is an

important sentence that you just said that we only prescribe medication if we know it's going

to help somebody because the reason why you put these numbers in red ink on the front page of a

newspaper today is to create the idea in the minds of your readers that they don't need it it's not

going to help them when in fact what they need is more this is this is the sticking plaster rather

than the cure precisely and a lot of the time i mean i personally see many people who are having

really understandable human reactions to horrible life circumstances they've been through something

awful, they're stuck in situations that keep them miserable, that anyone would be miserable in

but we can't fix any of that but we know that maybe an antidepressant

will give them more energy, more motivation Gosh, just take the edge off, almost

like they're logical responses to a hideous situation. Absolutely and that's by no means the majority of what

I see, but it's definitely you know, it's a pattern that can't

be denied and I don't think those prescriptions are inappropriate because we're still

healthy with somebody. Of course, but they are not the end of that person's journey

It's not a big cause. I'll ask you what I asked, Simon, and I know it's a tricky one

but for somebody listening to this in good faith who just doesn't really know what depression means

and they think that they... Do you know what I mean? The difference between a condition

that would prompt somebody to end up in front of you and a condition that might prompt somebody else to think

well, I've been depressed and I didn't go to the doctors. What is the distinction

and you can speak either as the patient here or the doctor

I don't mind which, or perhaps a bit of both. It's always going to be a bit of both, isn't it

Always, yes. I mean, from a medical perspective, we've got diagnostic criteria that say what makes you depressed

and for me, I would always be more concerned if somebody's persistently low

where those good moods are fleeting, they're not happening as often. For me, crucially, a lot of the time

it's loss of interest in things. You have a hobby that you enjoy, but you can't bring yourself to pick it up

It's not giving you that enjoyment it used to. If you're noticing that you're withdrawing from your relationships from people

that's a sign that something's wrong beyond just I'm a bit stressed or I've had a bad day

or I've had an argument with my partner. But most crucially, my message to anybody is if you're having any thoughts about harming yourself

or anyone else, please speak to somebody because that's not something you should deal with alone, ever

And in the first instance, it'll be your GP, really? Yes, yeah, it will be

what um i've asked everybody this so i'll ask you as well and you've mentioned therapy

and cbt i think is is one of the things that you've done and you've you've reminded us which

is so important that there's luck such luck involved in that luck of being able to afford

it luck of being able to access a simpatico professional i mean luck of knowing where to go

to to ask for help is is there anything small that you do in your life that makes a difference

um i've over the years integrated lots of little things that i know keep me well and that's just

through trial and error. So for me, sleep is a really big part of it, making sure that I'm sticking to a good sleep schedule

For me, making sure I have one day a week where it's just for me. I don't plan things with anybody else

I don't have any responsibilities as much as I can avoid it, which again, I'm very privileged to be able to do

because I don't have any dependents. And for me, routine is really helpful as well

but it differs for everybody. You make it sound so logical, and yet, of course, when we stick a new phrase on something

some of us bridle a bit and say self-care. Oh, we didn't talk about self-care when I was younger

It's such an obvious thing to do, self-care. Just care for yourself and recognize the things that help

and just try to do them more. And some of them will be a lot easier to do than others

So start with them. Thank you, Ellen. That was really lovely, really helpful

It's 11.46. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I started doing yoga about six months ago

something that I used to laugh at. I remember my mum did. My mum was one of those people who did everything

in the 70s and the 80s tap dancing yoga weight washers i remember one summer all she ate was

melons i presume that was some sort of weird diet me and my sister got all the seeds did you do that

you wash all the seeds from all the melons and used to make necklaces out of them um mom did

yoga for about a fortnight i thought it's ridiculous um i have a story about doing tai

chi that i have mentioned to you a few times over the last couple of years and i've never told you

the story because it's too embarrassing i'm going to tell it to you one day i don't know maybe it's

going to be today. James O'Brien on LBC. It is 10 to 12. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

where the conversation is so important. And yet, I like to think, I don't often do this, but

I like to think sometimes we show that you can do these things differently. Oh, look

the front page of the Daily Mail. Loads of people are taking antidepressants. Let's have a conversation

about the ones who don't really need them. Let's not. Let's have a conversation about the ones who really do

because it's probably all of them. And if it isn't, then what other areas of your life

do you take 100 people doing something and focus on the two that don't need to be doing it

instead of the 98 that do? You just don't do that. You think I exaggerate

Why have they put one in seven in red ink? It's disgusting. You know, let's take a day off from attacking foreigners

and let's attack people who've got depression instead. this is this is what passes for journalism in this country today and maybe it was always like

that it's only as i get older that it becomes even clearer um but of course if you choose to

have the conversation in the way that we're having it you get to listen to people like simon and ellen and you get to learn and you get to empathize and you get to understand things and

if you need help you get to recognize what that help might look like and what would happen if you

didn't seek it, perhaps. 11.52 is the time. I'm not doing the Tai Chi story

in this hour, because it's too serious. It's a subject matter. I might do it in the next

hour. It's been a long time coming, and if I don't do it soon, I'll probably forget what happened. Chris is in Edinburgh. Chris, what would you like

to say? Morning, James. Hello. First time, long time. Nice to chat with you

Yes, I've gone into a catchphrase now, has it? First time, long time? Nice to

chat. It's only me. You're not nervous. Carry on. Yeah, I'm a little bit nervous

so thanks for bringing that up as well. you were asking about the difference between

depression in the medical sense and in the everyday sense and I wanted to

Come on, because I think I can talk a little bit more to what that difference actually feels like

So for me, it was that I would wake up every day already feeling this horrible weight

It was like this thing that I felt right at the very core of my person

And it was before anything happened that day. It was before I'd got out of bed

It wasn't that I was in a terrible mood. It was just something that I carried around with me

throughout that whole day. What are we describing? Is it a fear

Where would that feeling have come from normally in other areas or other contexts

It's kind of what I've come to recognise maybe is more similar to your fight and flight response

Yeah, okay, got it. I wouldn't say it was necessarily fear, not something you can actually physically point to

No, I understand. But it is that you're poised, on edge, hypervigilant, constant, expecting

Yeah, I was waiting for the next terrible thing to happen from the very second that I woke up

And I think that's the difference. I think your everyday sadness has a cause

and that's something that you can point to and it's something that will lift. And this is something that never lifted

You say, why am I feeling like this? And you'd say, I've got absolutely no idea, but I am

Yeah, nothing I could point to and I'd go to bed every night hoping that, you know, tomorrow's going to be a normal day

and I'd wake up the next day upset because it wasn't a normal day and that feeling was still there

and I'd kind of repeat that on a cycle. Got it. yeah and i would you know over time you know you're lying away staring at the ceiling thinking

about every bad thing you've ever done you convince yourself you're not worthy of love

that your friends don't care about you that you deserve to be on your own and that goes on long

enough that i think eventually you know the thoughts start to to get worse and worse and what

stopped the cycle for you well for me the first thing i did was i turned to the nhs i made an

appointment with my GP to talk about it. I was living in London at the time and not to deter

people from seeking help, but I didn't have a positive conversation with that GP. You know

I told him that I had all these feelings and thoughts and he kind of, the first thing he said

to me was that, you know, that's just what life is like inside the M25. And he prescribed me with

antidepressants and off I went. But, you know, I kept at it. And I think that's a core thing that

we want to get across to people that need help and support. You have to continue to advocate for yourself

even if it doesn't feel like it, even if it feels impossible. That's so hard to do. It's chicken and egg, isn't it

Because you're going to be in a much better position to advocate for yourself if you're feeling chipper than you are if you're feeling broken

But you're so right. I mean, that's the thing. Or someone doing it on your behalf

If you're a child, a parent's advocacy is going to be the difference

between getting better and not getting better. So I presume the medication helped

but as ellen explained to us earlier it will not have been the end of your search for solutions

absolutely and listening to ellen it was a very similar experience um i think simon mentioned that

as well you try and multiple medications before you find something that does uh help the hard

thing i think with it is that there are a lot of sides at first you have to kind of wait them out

so you already feel terrible and then you're taking this medication that's supposed to make

you feel or at least help you to feel better in the short term it makes you feel a little bit worse

but you know with a little bit of experimentation and trial and error I did manage to find an

antidepressant that took the edge off the worst of it and it gave me the room to actually start

doing the work of getting myself better. Because you knew it didn't have to be like this that that

seems to me to be a distinction is that you knew somehow that it didn't have to be like this and

And yet other people in your situation get tempted towards the conclusion that this is how it will always be

I think for me, I managed to get myself into a headspace. Luckily that I could treat it like work

I would wake up and I would think, you know, let's get to work on feeling better today, finding the ways to

A little bit of breathing room. It changed a lot over getting access to talk therapy as well, which for me was the real game changer in the process

and in your own words what what difference did that make for skeptics for people like i would

have been 10 years ago who thought yeah whatever i don't need to talk about my problems

what what what difference does talk therapy make and why you get to the point where you're kind of talking yourself out of your your negative thoughts because

it's teaching you how to actually understand what is going on inside your own head most important

thing the biggest piece of ammunition you can have in a struggle with your mental health particularly

depression is the ability to name something and to identify is this a reasonable response to

whatever's happened to me can i prove this negative thought can i give it you know something

in real life that i can point to and say oh that is the case but if you have that process you can't

find, actually point at something tangible. Typically speaking, it must be. Yeah, and you're not going to get that on session one

and you're not going to be able to learn it, to do it without your help, without help

and without guidance. And we're back to privilege or luck or whatever it may be

to be able to access this stuff, because it's A, not easy, and B, it's not cheap

And, you know, if you're lucky enough to be able to access it through the NHS, then you're even luckier than everybody else

in a way. Chris, you're a star, thank you. You've put that brilliantly. just line going a tiny bit glitchy towards the end so i'll leave one or two more questions um

on ice or for another time and in a way although the conversation hasn't and i think quite correctly

actually hasn't really gone down the other route that we were talking about which is the the other

things you could do in a way what chris described there retraining yourself retraining your mind

with the benefit of of of behavioral therapy that is what you're doing you are trying to understand

and therefore change your behavior does explain why the comments from Brett Goldstein caught my

eye this morning because he's not just decided one morning to do a gratitude journal he's doing it as

part of a much broader treatment as part of much broader therapy and that phrase that Chris just

used there about training yourself to think differently is something with which a gratitude

journal in the context of broader therapy would would help because it was a therapist that

encouraged him to do that every day 10 things you're grateful for 10 things that you are grateful

for and um and that you can see if you're in a good enough place to be susceptible to that kind

of recalibration then it is going to help but an awful lot of people will need an awful lot of help

getting to a place where that kind of recalibration is possible and where a gratitude journal would

health. Oof. It's 12 noon. I want to talk about foxes next

Really? James O'Brien on LBC. It is three minutes after 12 and you're listening to

James O'Brien on LBC. Beavers and foxes. This hour. I can't see a phone

in for the beavers. Can you? This is how much of an anorak I am

and also how much I love North Norfolk. Eleanor said to me the other day

oh, there's some wild beaver that have been born in Norfolk And I named the river and I named the country park in which they have been discovered and I also explained to her that they not part of the rewilding project if that the right word to use which

we have in Ealing just up the river from me up the river Brent we have wild beavers that have

been reintroduced into the wild and they've started building dams and I haven't seen them

myself but I know a man who has and it's really exciting and I don't know why but that's not

really a phone in. Why is it? I mean, for a start, why are beavers

exciting could play havoc with your algorithms, couldn't it? I certainly wouldn't want you

to Google it. But I don't know why. I don't know why. I mean, some

people are left completely cold by it. I told you, didn't I

I've developed quite an annoying habit when I'm out for walks with people

If I'm with my wife, if I'm with Mrs. O'Brien, we both really like birds. We like

spotting birds. And where we are near the river, We see quite a lot

So we'll see egrets, we'll see herons, we'll see cormorants. You very rarely get taken by surprise

You get some migrating birds, which you won't see the rest of the year

So you might see a mandarin duck or a, what are they called, a tufted pot chard or something like

a pot chard or a tufted. And it's nice and I like it. But sometimes I'm walking with people

If you go out with a couple of friends who are walking their dog or something like that down by the river

And it's not just that people, I mean, they're just supremely uninterested

And they're not boring people, and they obviously like the outdoors because they've come for a walk

We're on a dog walk together. And I'll go, oh, look, there's a pot chart over there

And there's one particular occasion where it happened. Someone I've known for years

I've never even had a conversation with them about natural history. And I didn't used to be into it

I must be completely clear about that. It wasn't that they were bored

it was almost, what's the word that I'm looking for? It's like an absence of any reaction whatsoever

So even now, I see a heron pretty much every day. Sometimes, you know, on a good stretch of the Thames

you might see three or four herons. I'm still excited by a heron

A heron in full flight is a wonderful thing. It's the closest you'll ever see, Keith

to seeing a dinosaur in real life. A heron in full flight is the closest you'll ever get

The shadow of a heron coming over you, It's like a pterodactyl. It's like some sort of lizard brain response

So I will be excited even though I see them every day. I don't know why

But on this occasion, I'm out with this friend and I say to her, look over there, it's a heron. And she couldn't care less

I mean, it wasn't even that she was like, oh yeah, right. It was as if she couldn't understand why I was pointing it out to her

There you go. And not because she sees them all the time, but because it just didn't have any emotional impact on her wildlife in general

You know, the kind of person you could take on safari and they'd spend the entire time wondering what was for lunch

It was extraordinary. And I can't criticise that because I spent the first hour of the programme

talking about how I just don't have any form of emotional reaction to cars

And some people get more excited about cars than they do about anything else

And I don't judge you. A bit of me envies you. It's probably a little bit more manly, isn't it

to be excited about a car than it is about a heron? I don't know. So I don't know why beavers are exciting

and I don't know why I keep saying that. But anyway, it is down near a place called Pensthorpe

where they used to film Springwatch, actually, back in the day. They don't film it there anymore

Just near Fakenham, if you're familiar with that part of the world. Beavers were hunted to extinction in the early 16th century

There's a chance these ones have been illegally released, either by activists or, I don't know, maybe they're escaped pets

But wild beavers have been born in Norfolk for the first time in more than 500 years

Two of them. They're called kits. Did you know that? Absolutely glorious story. Absolutely glorious

And I couldn't tell you why in a million years, and I haven't got a phone in

All right? Why are beavers exciting? I don't know. they build dams

you know, so what? but it's just really interesting why do some of us respond to natural history

you talk to Chris Packham I remember years ago I have got a phone in somewhere, just bear with me for a while

I'm in one of those moods I remember years ago and this isn't immediately obvious

why I'm talking about this I had Patrick Moore on the show I was quite wet behind the ears

I was quite new on the programme and I was still doing that thing where I was trying to be provocative

and, you know, edgy. Challenging enough for you? And I said something to Patrick Moore along the lines of

but why do we still send craft into space? What's the point

Imagine all the other things we could spend the money on. And he just sort of..

I couldn't see his face because he was on the phone, but if I could have seen his face, I think what I would have seen on his face

would have just been pity. How can you not be transported by thoughts of space

and by the excitement of exploring it. We touched on this a couple of weeks ago, didn't we

When we tried to work out what was so exciting about the eclipse

Do you remember why some people thought it was the best thing since sliced bread? Other people weren't even going to step out onto their own patio

to have a look at the sky. Why? And I think the answer is wonder

Wonder. Some people feel wonder when they think of space and they want to explore it

And Patrick Moore thought I was a wombat. for not, in that moment, getting it

Some people feel wonder when they see a sparrow. Chris Packham is who I was thinking of

It's Chris Packham that made me think of Patrick Moore, right? That's why

Because some people communicate. You know who I always think of at this point in these conversations

I've told you. I can't wait to see what you put up

Because I always think of Fred Dibner. Do you know who Fred Dibner is, Keith

I always think of Fred Dibner when I think of these moments

because Fred Dibner was possessed of an ability to make his own enthusiasms universal

He could sort of almost prompt osmosis. You have never in your puff

given the vaguest impression of being interested in steeples or big chimneys

But when Fred Dibner on your television started talking about steeples and big chimneys

it was the most interesting thing in history. Look him up, kids. Seriously, I don't need to

That's how my algorithm works. That's why I'm not really fully attuned to the dangers of these algorithms

because I, at the moment, am going through quite a big Fred Dibner phase

Fred Dibner has that ability. He can do with steeples what Chris Packham can do with natural history

what Patrick Moore could do with space, and what Brian Cox, of course, can do with science, with physics, with space as well

It's an extraordinary ability to communicate enthusiasm itself so by talking about the thing that I find interesting I make you interested and it turns

out I don't have this ability because when I was pointing out various birds to my friend

on this walk she was gloriously ambivalent not even particularly bored just baffled as to why I was telling you could almost see on why is he telling why is he pointing at birds she was utterly and completely indifferent look there a heron over there whispering you

think might convey a little bit of exercise a heron over there it's nesting it's a nesting heron

if we we're lucky we might see the they'd see the baby herons um no nothing not even no I mean in a

way, if she'd said, I don't really like birds, I'd have found that better. It was the utter

indifference stroke ambivalence that I took almost as a personal affront. How am I failing

so completely to communicate to you why this is really interesting? Not why I find it interesting

but why you should. It turns out that when it comes to birds, I am no Fred Dibner. I am no

Chris Packham, I am no Patrick Moore. And I don't have a phone-in about beavers

Okay. Why? Why? Why are beavers so exciting? We initially saw a single young one with a parent

just pottering around doing little beaver things, said Richard Spowage, the manager of Penthorpe

Doing little beaver things. How can you not? That's just the cutest thing in the news all year

And then, in a later piece of footage, because they've got cameras set up

and suddenly it came running back and a second kit was running after it. Two little beaver kits playing in the pond

playing in the pool. I know that nature reserve really, really well. I think I know where they are

They've built a lodge. It's called a lodge, Eleanor, not a dam. They've built a lodge

or maybe they're two different things. They have a lodge and a dam. See, we could do beaver-related content

for the entire hour, Keith, but I haven't got a phone in. I haven't got a phone in

Why do some of us find it exciting and other people don't? you might as well have the same conversation about cars

the same conversation about steeples, the same conversation about space, the same conversation about storage wars

You need to have been listening to the whole programme for that last bit to work. But why do some of us find that wonderful and transporting

and some of us don't? And the answer is wonder. Wonder. Which brings me to the foxes

And news in the... You heard it maybe with Tom earlier today

standing in for Nick on The Breakfast Show. These stories come around annually, I think

It's probably got something to do with the weather and something to do with the increased incidence

of people feeding foxes. But a lady has claimed that a fox bit her baby on the head

after sneaking into a home in the first known incident of its kind in more than a decade

Can we check that, please? I'm sure, I mean, I've been doing the job a long time now

but I'm sure I've done this phone-in before. I know she spoke to Tom Sawbrook earlier today

but is it really the first recorded incident in more than a decade? Haven't we? We've had stories about this before, haven't we

Has it been ten years? My Lord above, are we really now doing this

Phone in on a ten-year cycle? Ten years? So, this is not going to be the most sophisticated conversation

that we've ever had together. But I am drawn to it, for both personal and professional reasons

Because I have been on a journey with foxes. Foxes are the first wild, big wild animals

that most of us ever see, right? You see a fox, it's really exciting

You move to a city, you move to London, I hardly ever saw a fox. I grew up in the countryside

There were actual fox hunts near where I grew up. And I never saw a fox

I don't think I ever saw a fox in the wild as a kid. And I grew up on a farm

It was pure rural. Fields to the left of me, fields to the right of me

Everywhere you looked, there were fields. I never saw a fox. And then my school, my first boarding school

was in a village where there was a hunt, where the hunt would meet

Farmers, in particular, were very fond of going fox hunting. So the farmer's sons that I was at school with

the people who didn't just live on farms, but actually farmed farms, they always went fox hunting

It wasn't just the local toffs. In fact, around my neck of the woods, in that part of Worcestershire

there weren't that many proper toffs anyway, so the hunt would be a largely agricultural affair

but I never saw a fox. Saw the hunt, saw them in their coats and everything

hunting, never saw a fox. First time you move to London, London, first time you move to town

you see a fox, it's incredibly exciting, unless you're like my friend, who'd just be like, yeah, whatever, it's a fox, so what

And there's something quite magical about it. I saw a fox in Kew Gardens the other day

absolutely beautiful thing. I mean, a truly beautiful thing. I imagine that that fox is living a life of Riley, don't you

In Kew Gardens. So it's not going to have any fears, really

It's not eating out of bins. It's going to be living on an almost, you know, undiluted diet of worms and healthy stuff

just strolling around these beautiful gardens all its life. Utterly fearless. I mean, utterly tame, really

I could probably have stroked the thing I got so close. I'll put a picture on Blue Sky if you're good

because it was a beautiful fox often the urban foxes are really ratty

and dirty and they're kind of mangy but this fox was gorgeous

bright red, white bib absolutely beautiful thing and I noticed in this moment

it was just last week I was looking at the Henry Moores highly recommended I noticed in this moment

that my attitude to foxes has completely changed again so I used to love foxes

I used to think they were magical I remember seeing three little foxes

when did it last snow? how many years ago was this? but in the last ten years or so

three little fox cubs coming around the back of my big shed in the last house we lived in

in my old house and frolicking in the snow now if you can't feel anything

when you see three little fox cubs frolicking in the snow in the actual snow

it was a bit like these beavers in Norfolk one of them came around the corner and I thought oh look

there's a lovely little fox cub and then another one and then they started frolicking

Keith, actual frolicking they started playing with each other, knocking each other over

playing around three little foxes then of course it turned out they were living under the

big shed and the story changed slightly and then, and this is

an important part of this story they ate my chickens so the three little fox cubs

that I saw frolicking in the snow grew up and some of them would have left the area

and some of them would have stayed and two years later, they were no longer living under our shed at this point

but they were still in the area and they ate my chickens

Well, they didn't even eat my chickens. They killed my chickens for fun. And almost overnight, I started hating foxes

So I went from loving foxes to hating foxes. They burrowed into the chicken run

and they bit their heads off both my chickens and that was it. They just left the headless corpses

in the middle of the chicken run. They didn't even eat them. If they'd eaten them, I would have sort of thought some

well, you know, the circle of life. Hakuna Matata. Nature read in tooth and claw

But they bit the chickens' heads off and then just did one. They foxed off Keith

And I hated them as a consequence of that. And then, last week, I felt this creeping back slightly

The foxes near me, there's a lot of them. The people we bought the house off used to feed the foxes and next door to us who were moving out at roughly the same time so the two houses got vacated at roughly the same time the people we bought the house off used to feed the foxes

And the people next door paid someone to round them up and take them away

Which you can do. I don't know what you can do with them when you've rounded them up and taken them away

I think you maybe have to release them in the wild, or I didn't want to know, to be honest, even though I hated foxes at the time

I wouldn't derive any pleasure from a fox being killed because a fox is a beautiful thing

So, that's the phone-in. So, when you see a story about a fox biting a baby

what's your first thought? Is your first thought for the fox or the baby? 03456060973

There's never been a recorded case of a fox doing lasting and meaningful harm to a baby

Foxes are... I'm back. I'm back in Team Fox now. Someone tell Chris Packham

Because they are just incredible. They're beautiful. And they live in the cities

And they live wild. And you see them sleeping on a shed roof when you go past on the train

And it's like a little glimpse of the natural world that you wouldn't otherwise get

That you wouldn't otherwise get. 20 minutes after 12 is the time

Tell me a story about a fox. All right? That's it. that is designed or that will either..

Tell me a story about a fox that will swing my pendulum. That's all

And, of course, all the pendulums, all the pendular of everybody listening. So tell me a story

That's it. That's the phone-in. All right? 0345 6060 973. Tell me a true story, a real-life story

about a fox that will make the rest of us either go, oh, I love foxes

or I, I don't like foxes. That's what I want. and we can maybe find the king of the stories

the story that will absolutely close it down. All right, you've got me

I'm back off foxes again. I hate them all. Round them up. They're not vermin

You're not allowed to hurt foxes. They are protected, as it were

but they're not classed as vermin. Local authorities have no legal obligation to act against them

but if they eat your chickens, you want them to. So tell me a story about a fox

that will either swing my pendulum to Fox love or swing my pendulum to Fox hate

That's what I want. It's 21 minutes after 12. The phone lines are open. 03-456-060-973 is the number you need

And if you can find a way to bring Beavers into the conversation, then I'll give you the money myself

James O'Brien on LBC. After 12, and you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC

and it was a scratch, not a bite, I think the lady told Tom earlier

The newspapers have gone with Fox intruder bites head of sleeping baby but when Tom Swarbrick in his full Watergate mood of journalistic inquiry

grilled this lady earlier, Carly Clarkson, it turned out that we think the punctures on the baby's head

were probably caused by a claw or a paw as opposed to a bite

but the question remains the most divisive animal for the more against them

but it has to be based on a story thanks to Mike in Worcester for pointing out to me

that the bite may have been an exaggeration I like this message

James writes, Sasha I think you are totally fascinating and great how to get your message read out on the radio

lesson 101 but what on earth are you going on about and can you tell the Tai Chi story please thanks

I got there in the end, Sasha you should have been a little bit more patient we're having a conversation

about a claim that foxes only interact with humans or only cause problems for humans every ten years or so

which is a reason, I think, to love them. But I want the story that will swing everybody else's pendulum

the story about a fox that will make you love them more or hate them more or change from loving to hating

or change from hating to loving. And I'll take anything at all. Jamie's in Cambridge. Jamie, what have you got

Yeah, hello there. It was a bit of a funny story that had both ways of the swing of the pendulum, really

Blimey, go on then. We sat there having Sunday lunch at our friend's door open

nice summer's afternoon. Next minute, I looked to my left thinking it was, you know

just like something coming like a blown in, like a leaf or something on my arm

When I looked down, there's a fox sitting at the chair leg looking at us whilst we're eating a bit of lamb

which was really, really funny. Next minute, there was a scream and a shout

The fox goes running out. but for the rest of the afternoon

we shouldn't have done really but we were feeding it the lamb all afternoon

which was brilliant and it was so lovely to see in the garden

How close did it come to you? Well it touched my arm

No I meant when you were feeding it not when it was just sitting there At the back door

it was literally at the back door and we were just feeding it at the back door now we did put it out then

and we were feeding it at the back door it was absolutely brilliant just to see

and it was almost like there was a thank you in its eyes to say it got some food that day

Why did you say you shouldn't have fed it? Look, encouraging. A bit like you were saying, encouraging it, bringing it to the back door

But then what was quite funny is... But I don't know. You see, I'm on a journey, mate, honestly

Because, I swear, I'm not even exaggerating. The people that lived in our house fed the foxes

The people that lived next door paid someone to take them away. And I don't think they ever knew

the people we bought the house off, Whoever knew that the neighbours were paying people to take the foxes away

And whose side would you be on in that context? Oh, I would be on the fox, 100%

Feed the fox, feed them. Why not feed them then? Yeah, I agree. I looked at it and it almost looked in its eyes as if to say, thank you

And it's lovely, right? It's a proper wild animal. It's like an extraordinary liminal space between feral and domesticated

And that's where the fox lives. And for that to come into the actual dining room and sit beside me

thinking it was something else but it was a fox said it was incredibly hungry that day

And have they seen it since? I mean, have you checked up with your friends? Is it becoming quite a tame local fox

Yeah, it's quite regular and it doesn't cause any trouble. They just give it a few scraps

and it eats the scraps most days and it's brilliant. Yeah, no, I like it

26 minutes after 12. What is not to like? And that's a genuine question

to which you can answer by dialing 03456060973. What is not to like

Charlie, for example, says, If you've ever seen a fox, I mean, this is pretty grim, actually

but trigger warning if you're squeamish. If you've ever seen a fox kill a lamb as it's being born

you will never feed one again. Well, Charlie, mate, if you've ever seen a fox kill a lamb

as it's being born, what the hell were you doing? You should have been getting rid of the fox, man

Seriously. Standing there, you're probably filming it for TikTok, weren't you, you freak

I don't understand how you can find yourself in that kind of scenario without doing something to intervene

Perhaps I'm demonstrating the distance, the time that has passed since I was essentially a rural man into an urban man

Chris is in Hedge End in Southampton. Chris, what have you got? Oh, hello, James

Long time listening, first time caller. I know you've heard that more than once. I get you all in the end, Chris

We do. Come on. Yes, this late spring, early summer, we had fox cubs in the garden

Yes, and it's a beautiful, beautiful thing. It was. We saw the first just one, then two, then there were three

basically frolicking and playing on the back lawn and what have you

And it was absolutely fantastic. And we enjoyed that for one or two weeks

There's a but coming, isn't there? There always is, isn't there? There's always a but. Go on then

It was fantastic. But my wife and I, we enjoy our garden an awful lot

We take a lot of care of it. Plus my wife grows vegetables and what have you

Have you got a hosepipe ban down there or not? Oh, God, yes

Carnage, isn't it? Absolute carnage. You've got to get out there with the cans

Yeah, just watering cans, yeah, constantly. It's saving the water from washing up and using the grey water

So it's, yeah, it's a right old workup. But yes, the foxes, they were lovely

My daughter is back with us at the moment, and she was absolutely over the moon with it all

because it was fantastic. They're close. What's not to like? Here it comes

But also, they were coming onto the patio really close. Then we started to notice the damage in the garden

digging for worms really yeah basically and we tried to net off

the areas my wife had courgettes and what have you growing next thing you know

there was a fight with the foxes they got tangled up in the netting and it was quite yummy actually

because they were all tangled up of course the damage they caused

then we started well we realised that the neighbours next but one

were doing what your previous friends were feeding them and they were coming in

and they were bringing lumps of chicken raw chicken, which then they were eating all of it, leaving it on the patio

and the little brown friends came along. The rats came along as well

This is like an episode of Springwatch, this isn't it, on your patio

All you need is a badger, mate, and you've got the full set. Now we've got squirrels and things like that, so

they're lovely to see. And of course we're concerned about our neighbours, other neighbours

who've got a very small cat. I thought, oh dear. Did you

confront the feeders? Yes, we did, yeah. We're friendly with them. so it dropped a little note to them

And said, please stop feeding the foxes, we've got rats now. Yes, yeah, and they were very good

so we're going to stop it straight away. But anyway, we end up having to chase the fox cubs out of the garden

because if we were sat on the patio, they would come up to us, which is not fair on the fox

Lovely to see, but they should be frightened of us, shouldn't they? I guess they should

I mean, in those moments, you sort of... Do you know what Chris Packham used to do

He told me on full disclosure. Yeah. He used to take a fox into his bed when he was a little boy

A wild fox, he'd keep it in his bedroom. Crikey, he must have had not a very good sense of smell

That was my thought as well, but I presume you get used... I'm sure he told me that. I didn't imagine that, did I

I'm sure that came up on full disclosure. But, yeah, I mean, because that's the thing

The reason I thought of that then was, are we sure that it's better if they're frightened of us

We're not predators. We're not going to eat them or kill them. But not everyone's going to be friendly towards them, are they

I guess not, no I don't know that you can go around

abusing foxes, but no, you're right you're either going to chase them off or you're going to make them

or you're going to make them welcome that's a lovely story there

it's basically the odyssey there of garden wildlife you've got it all

you've got the moment of magic the falling in love, the beginning of the

frost setting in and then the rats turning up for the denouement and then having to have a conversation

with the neighbours and get them to stop feeding the foxes So, remember, I inherited this scenario

I didn't... I wasn't in the house when the foxes were being fed

but when we actually turned our attention to the garden, which was an absolute... This is to continue Chris's horticultural scene

The garden hadn't been touched for years when we moved into the house that we're in now. And when we started doing it, we found bags of chicken bones

Bags and bags and bags of chicken bones. And what was quite unnerving, if you're interested, Keith

What was quite unnerving is that the people that lived in the house before us

had been doctors. And back in the 60s, our house had been the local doctor's surgery

So when we started digging up loads of bones in the garden, we got a little bit concerned, but it was quickly established that they were chicken bones

as opposed to former patients. It's 12.32. Here's Matt Hewitt with your headlines

James O'Brien on LBC. Do you know what the other contender for this hour was

Sanctions against Iran. It's a toss-up sometimes. What are we going to talk about? Fox, friend or foe

or sanctions against Iran. That's my world. That's my life. Welcome to it

And I went with Fox, friend or foe. It's a little bit more sophisticated than that

but I'm not going to lie to you, not very. Just looking for the stories that will change

how the rest of us feel about particularly urban foxes. I don't think anyone's got beef with foxes in the countryside

except fox hunters, I suppose, technically. But the whole premise of fox hunting

is built upon the idea that foxes are a threat, right? I don't know whether it's true or not

but that's the historical rationale. Foxes are a threat to animals, to farm animals

to lambs, as Charlie pointed out, although he's subsequently been in touch to say he's never actually witnessed a fox eating a lamb

as it was being born, but I'm sure it would be awful if I did. Well, I'm sure it would too, Charlie

but you'd be able to stop it from happening if you were actually there, wouldn't you? Foxes are quite easily scared

And, of course, the other element of this conversation is not as easily scared as they used to be

because they're getting domesticated. Keith knows something I didn't know. Have I ever said that before, Keith

I think that's a first. So anyway, Keith read a thing. It's like that

It's two things today, referencing the streets. It was from original pirate material

that line about geezers need excitement that came into our conversation about cars

But the... So that line, he goes, I saw something on ITV the other night

Keith saw something on the BBC the other night. And Fox's snouts are getting shorter

Did you know this? because they are becoming domesticated, as it were

as in they're not foraging as much for worms and grubs. Foxes eat a lot of worms

That's why they were turning Chris's garden upside down and playing havoc with his wife's courgettes

But they are becoming much more likely to feed on rubbish. So their jaw getting stronger because they biting into bins all the time And their snout is getting shorter because they not foraging in the earth for the worms as much as they used to And historically dogs and cats used to have longer snouts than they have now

especially, I mean, you can still see it with dogs. Can't quite imagine a cat with a snout

But that's what Keith saw on the BBC the other night, so it must be true. And there it is

But why would you worry about it? Why would you have a problem with it

I don't know what the sort of historical reason is? We may be about to find out

Michel is in Lotte-et-Garant in France. That's two calls from France today

Is it Michel un homme or Michel une femme? Une femme. And a bit

starstruck, actually, if I might say. Why? Did you speak to Keith

on the way through? No. You're very kind. Promises, promises, promises. I really want to speak to Keith

No, you're not allowed to. No one's allowed to speak to Keith. Except on February the 29th, once every four years

Okay, it's in my diary. What made you pick up the phone, Michelle

So we don't actually live here. We have a house here. We live in London. So urban story about foxes

London. That was Keith, you see. You've woken him up now. London

London. Enough. Stop it. Carry on. So, anyway, we had two dogs

We had a French bulldog called Coco, and we had a Schneiser, a standard Schneiser called Tallulah

And they were really good partners in crime, actually. Where one went, the other would always go

Yeah. And anyway, down the back of our garden, we have a big garden for London, actually, James

Not a long garden. And down the back, we have like a compote heap

And anyway, our French bulldog went, we had a lot of commotion at the back

a lot of barking, but that's not unusual because we have loads of foxes in the garden. And the French bulldog went missing

And we were looking for her for some hours, actually. And eventually, really sadly, really sadly

my husband and son found her bum sticking out the back of the compost heap

And essentially, when we got her out, she was dead. And what happened, we think, was there was a fox

probably, is it a vixen? Is it a female fox, a vixen? protecting cubs

yeah, yeah, she was either I think she might have been pregnant

and she nested in there and there were two holes in it actually

and probably what happened was Tallulah went into one and probably Coco went into the other

and cornered her and I guess in self-defense she bit Coco on the nose

and so Coco had these bite marks on her nose and we think what happened

she was eight years old and she probably got really excited and had a heart attack or something

Oh, my days. And so she died, and it was so, so sad, really, really sad

And does this influence your view of foxes in general? I presume it does

No, you know what? No, it doesn't. Because they killed my chickens. I hated them for years. Obviously, we were really sad

There's actually a really sad ending to the story. I'm sad enough already. Are we sure we want the next chapter of this

Go on. Go on. It was basically that night we went to bed, and we were in shock

We went to the vets around six o'clock. It happened in the morning. Yeah. We took the dog to the vets

I mean, she was clearly dead, but we took her to the vets. Just in case? No

That's not fair. Sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Anyway, we took her

Didn't take her back to the pet shop. Yeah, we'd rounded our money back, essentially

This is an ex-dog. This is an ex-dog. Yeah. A down payment

So anyway, we took her back and we came home that night

and we probably left, we were in such shock, we probably left a key in the car, we don't know

And the car was stolen off the drive. Would you believe it? The car was stolen off the drive

So it was a really sad story. I presume this was a while ago, because you, I mean..

Oh, yeah, yeah. We now have another French Bulldog. It was about, I think it was probably about three years ago

Oh, that recently. You've recovered very quickly. I'm glad. Yeah, yeah, yeah

What do you do now? So, I mean... We're fine. No, we're fine

We're fine. But you don't, like, have fox, anti-fox measures down in the garden

or anything like that? No, no, no. So we don't keep a compost heap anymore. No

And we definitely have foxes in the garden. But we don't feed them. No

We would occasionally have put food out for them. Oh, really? And so we don't feed them

And, in fact, actually, our son was definitely feeding them when we were away

Right. He hates them. No, he hates them. Because of cocoa? Because they kill Coco, yeah

Absolutely. But we don't feed them anymore. I hope he doesn't blame himself, Michelle

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. He's, no, no, no, absolutely not. So, yeah, it's a little sad

But no, I love foxes. I think they're beautiful. Keep them wild, then, is the lesson here

And there will be circumstances. The thing about wildness is that there will be circumstances

over which we have no control. They are not domesticated. And getting cornered like that made the fox lash out

as you say, the bite itself wouldn't have been enough to do for Coco

but probably the shock of the moment was. Completely, completely. So, I mean, she went probably

with a lot of excitement and enjoyment. Doing what she loved doing most, chasing things

Yeah, you know, when my time comes, Michelle. I hope I like Coco and doing what I love the most

or like Tommy Cooper. She's the dog equivalent of Tommy Cooper dying on stage

isn't she? She's very much the dog equivalent and actually Tallulah the other side of that story is Tallulah

and I know you're not talking about anything else but this is two seconds Well I'm happy to talk about beavers

but only if you've got a good story Bunny rabbits so Tallulah died

she fell down a well Standridge Nauza fell down a well in France chasing bunny rabbits

so they both met very sad endings but they were both very happy

Was it a well in your environs? Was it a well near you? Yeah do you know what It was actually the neighbour wall but it right outside our house and they were irrigating crops and so it wasn fully covered so poor Tallulah went down well So I think maybe we shouldn have pets

Well, I... Do you think maybe we didn't? No, I think you were very unlucky

I think you were very unlucky. I think we have. Poor old Tallulah, and indeed Coco

Well, good luck with the replacements. But I hope you've got insurance

Well, I'm pleased to say, James, they're still both with us, very much alive and happy at this present moment in time

That's lovely. Thank you. And, I mean, there is somewhere inside all of that detail

there is a lesson, which is that, you know, foxes are foxes. Let them be foxes. Don't try and turn them into pets

So maybe we swing back with Michelle plus Chris. We swing back from feeding them

but we don't return to the days of thinking them as vermin or a danger

I wonder how many people just thought of what I thought of when Michelle mentioned The Well

Because I told you yesterday that my friend Scott, who has LBC running through his veins

he tells me things about this radio station that are not normal to have that level of knowledge

He hasn't been listening since 1973, because he wasn't born in 1973, but he has been listening for almost all of his natural life

and he listens to all of it, even the rubbish bits. And he dreams of the day when we do a phone-in

which is have you ever fallen down a well that is his phone in that is you say to him what would

be the perfect lbc phone in and he's heard them all he's heard the ones about sanctions on iran

he's heard the ones about um i don't know favorite front doors he's heard the ones about donald trump

the ones about boris johnson he's heard all the brexit ones you say what would be if you had to

like sum up your favorite phone in that has never yet been done what would it be and he would say

have you ever fallen down a well? And Michelle got very close. Michelle got closer to Scott's dream phone-in

than any other LBC caller that I'm aware of has ever got. This is usually the point at which I get a message saying

I think you'll find that Clive Bull did have you ever fallen down a well in 1982

And Nick Abbott does it every other Tuesday. But I am not currently aware of any of us ever having done

have you ever fallen down a well. It's 12.46. James O'Brien on LBC

You know I've started trying not to get distracted by your messages as much as I used to do

so I only turn to them in the breaks and stuff like that but one of the great delights remains

people who are either listening on catch-up and have forgotten that they're listening on catch-up

or people who've sent us messages by accident or people who, I don't know quite how to explain this one from Jim

but in the middle of our conversation about Foxes Jim has messaged the programme at 12.48 today

so literally one minute ago, to say, would you, and he puts you in capital letters

get up at five and take a shower, then sit in a bus and drive for 15 pounds an hour

To which I'd have to answer, probably not, Jim, no, not at this stage in my life

I mean, I can't really be answering all questions like that on the programme

It'd be like one of those things on Reddit, like those ask-me-anythings. But no

So I presume that either Jim has a slightly eccentric view of how interactive radio works

or one of my colleagues has at some point in the last 24 hours been talking about striking bus drivers

bus drivers striking over the absolutely appalling conditions that they're expected to work in when the heat is off the charts

But anyway, Jim, if that question was intended just for me, then the answer is no, probably not, mate, not at this stage in my life

and when, frankly, I would have done almost anything for £15 an hour

I didn't have a driving licence, so I wouldn't have been able to drive a car, let alone a bus

But thanks for getting in touch. It's Jo in Kingston next. Jo, what would you like to say

Hello, Jane. I love foxes like you do. I had one little story when I was living in Acton quite a long time ago

I was stuck in a traffic jam, and I saw a fox wait at a pedestrian crossing to cross the road

They waited on one side of the road, sitting like a dog, till somebody else, I was stuck in the traffic jam

so I saw all this, came down the other side of the road on the pavement, hit the button to turn the light red

and then the fox crossed the road when the light had gone. No way. It was so cute

Are you serious? I'm serious. It was just like, it made my day

It was amazing. It was dark. It was about seven o'clock in the evening, I think

So, yeah, it was amazing. So, we've got foxes around us, and I walk the dog in the evening

and I'm a little lane where we live. I live in Kingston now. We've got a family of foxes

The first one I spotted with a stumpy tail, and by mean stumpy, it's not a full brush

It's like half a tail. Well, he's had an accident then. Wow, do you think that

Yeah. I thought that, and then I talked to one of my neighbours, and we were talking about Stumpy the fox

and it turns out it's not just stumpy, it's stumpy and family, because we've seen more since then

And they've all got stumpy foxes, stumpy tails. They've all got stumpy tails. And she said it's a genetic thing

it's not just because they've got a tail trapped at a door or something. So it's a birth defect then

It's a birth defect. That has been passed on. And I suppose an urban fox doesn't need a big bush

so it's not going to have any evolutionary advantage, is it? No, no

So we feed them little. I accidentally drop dog treats when I'm walking the dogs

Accidentally, yes, of course. It's slipped through your fingers. And the fox follow you. You're training the foxes, really

Well, they do seem to appear when we're walking in that certain part of the lane

and they will keep a safe distance. They'll always stay about 10, 20 feet away

because the dog's obviously like, what are you doing? She doesn't notice what's going on after the fox

She doesn't look behind her. We just keep going and I can see the foxes behind us

Our little dog goes nuts about the foxes, but I've watched her

And when the foxes are young, which obviously comes around every year

I think that the foxes want to play with the dog. I don't think the little foxes..

I've got Coco in my mind, Jo. I got Michelle dog Coco I know that was so sad It was very sad although she certainly saw the funny side I know that a fox will you know a fox that is

pregnant or a fox that is protecting cubs will, an adult fox, but I wonder whether

there's that film, isn't there, The Fox and the Hound. I think that, I'm pretty sure when I watch

our little dog with the younger foxes, they're both playing and then something happens

a little bit further down the line and the dog just chases the fox

out of the garden and isn't playing at all. It's a weird one. So your dog, what would your dog do if it saw the fox

Just go after it. It depends. Sometimes she just, she's on a long lead at the time

because when we're walking home, she'll just sit and look at it or stand and look at it

And it's almost like, you look like a dog, but you don't smell like a dog

Yeah, the smell's the thing. So I don't know what to do with you. I don't know what to do with you. Yeah, I don't know

I mean, I can't imagine that it's unknown for dogs and foxes

to be more friendly, you know, outside the realms of Disney animations

You'd think it would go on. 1254 is the time. Nobody's managed to bring Beavers into this conversation

but, you know, we could perhaps save that for another day. Thank you, Joe. David is in Kings Lynn

Not far, David, from the Beavers. I know, close to the Beavers

Just up the road at Pensthorpe. Have you been to Pensthorpe ever? I've never been there

I'm actually on the way to see my father, who lives in Kings Lynn, so just... So it's not your neck of the woods, then

No, well, I was born there. Oh, lovely. Well, you should have been to Pensthorpe, mate. They've got beavers now at the moment

It's a lovely part of us. You just go up to Fakenham, through the Ruddham

through East Ruddham, through Tattersett, and then you'll be in Fakenham before you know it

And then Swinger left at that roundabout on the way to Wells, and you'll be at Pensthorpe, and you might see some beavers

No, why not? Anyway, what made you pick up the phone today? Okay

We regularly get foxes in our garden. I actually live in Solihull. And I love them, but my wife always sort of chases them away

It even happened last night as soon as we got home. But this story is from about 18 months ago

Go on. My daughter, Sarah, was staying with us, and she has a dog called Nelly

And she'd got up early on a Sunday morning to let the dog out in the garden

and realised there were some foxes in the garden, three of them

And she'd tried to shoo the moss, and two of them would go, but the third one wouldn't

Right. So as I came down the steps, the stairs in the morning, she was heading out

He said, this is really weird, Dad. Can you go and check it out? So I went and had a look at these

And this third one just looked at me and came close. So I thought maybe he's hungry or thirsty

Something's not right here. Something's not right with this fox. He didn't seem right

So I got a sort of a bowl of water and put it in front of it

It kind of dipped its nose in but wasn't really interested. It wasn't thirsty

Yeah. I took some ham out, gave it some food, ignored the food. so I'm kind of, clearly this fox isn't well

So I managed to get hold of a vet. It was a Sunday morning, but I managed to get hold of a vet

who said, if you can actually catch this fox, bring it in, we'll take a look

Climby. So I started to give it a go. So I had a dog crate anyway

that I use when I'm taking the dogs out. I put that in the garden

and kind of ushered this fox towards the crate. I've actually got this so close to at this point

that I was actually stroking his head and looking directly into his eyes beautiful, beautiful animal

Was it smelly? Was it very smelly? No, not at all I just managed to get him into the crate

without much of a fuss he didn't really struggle and just lay down in the crate as soon as I put him in there

and I took him off to the vet when I got to the vet, I said

don't bring him in, we'll come out and have a look in your car So he came out to the car and kind of assessed it

and he says, no, something's not right here. He's got a bit of a twitch. I think it's a neurological thing, so he's clearly not well

so there's not really anything I can do for him, apart from put him to sleep. Oh, Lord

This story's taken an unexpected turn. I know, I know, I know. So he's making tie wraps and some stuff in the needle

I'm going to the phone line's gone. It's flipping King's Lynn, that's the thing

The signal always goes near King's Lynn. But I can't not hear the end of the story, so go on

Yeah. So in front of me, he injected this poor fox, which didn't even try and escape from the needle

which is laying on the back of the crate. And I just watched it die in front of me

And I just burst into tears. It was horrible. So I needed to share that with you

to ruin everybody else's morning. No, I'm glad you did. I mean, we trust the vet, do we

Are we sure he wasn't? Yeah, well, do you know what? It tortures me a bit, actually. Yeah, I bet it does

When you say that, because I think about it, I think, well, what if he actually wasn't? What if he was fine

He was just feeling a bit under the weather. He just had a sort of dodgy kebab or something the night before

And not hungry, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. No, I'm sure the vet knew what he was doing

And presumably the vet meant well. He said, bring it in, I'll have a look at it. It might just need, I don't know

it might need its toenails clipping or something like that. Yeah, yeah

Oh, dear. What did you tell, I mean, you went back home and told the family

Was your wife moved or was she relieved? lost the phone line now

because his wife didn't like foxes I'm not weird I was asking him that for a reason she didn't like the foxes

in the first place how did your wife respond David? she didn't seem bothered at all

yeah I knew it oh well I knew it I've got one like that absolutely unbelievable

I'd have cried I'd have cried little foxy fella that's a terrible business

that is a sad story isn't it a sad story all human life is here and indeed

most wildlife as well. If you missed any, I think I was right about Chris Packham

but I may have been wrong, in which case my apologies. If you missed any of today's show, you can listen back

on our free Global Player app or the LBC app, where you can also stay up to date with all the latest news

videos and opinions. You can listen to a range of podcasts, including James O'Brien Daily

the best bits from my LBC show every day. So do download the official LBC app for free

from your app store now. Coming up at four on LBC it's Simon Marks

who is, of course, in for Tom Swarbrick, who is in for Nick Ferrari. But now it's the original

It's Sheila Fogarty. Oh, thanks, the OG. Thanks very much indeed