Is freedom of movement back on the table? | James O'Brien - The Whole Show

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This is not the best monologue I've ever opened the week with, is it? I think it's fair to say

Indeed, Andy's already pointed it out. So here we go. It's back

I mean, it's categorically back. I don't know whether there's been a kind of ribbon-cutting moment or a massive fanfare about this

but if I read you the coverage from the Times newspaper today, which is, of course, not particularly loyal to Andy Burnham

The thing that might strike you is the sobriety of the language

Andy Burnham will demand the loyalty of his ministers if he pushes ahead with plans for a return to free movement and rejoining the EU

This despite a cabinet split on the issue. He has said that he wants an honest discussion with the nation on the potential benefits of a return to free movement

Telling the Sunday Times that everything has changed since Brexit and it is time for a reset

You can't really build measurably closer relations with the EU without some form of free movement being returned

The other element of this that quite a lot of the coverage has, I think, missed is quite a lot of expertise suggests that we wouldn't necessarily be held

We wouldn't get all of the breaks and kickbacks that we had last time

But Schengen and, well, we're not going to have to join the euro any time soon

because I think you have to get the financial requirements. We simply wouldn't pass

You know, the stuff that people think perhaps Greece finagled slightly in order to get into the euro

We wouldn't get close to that threshold as an economy at the moment. So the two things that strike me most about the conversation is the two biggest obstacles to it historically would be losing the pound which would be a very difficult thing to sell for emotional not fiscal or economic reasons

And Schengen, where you've got absolutely no border checks at all anywhere. And it seems to me to be the case that we wouldn't actually be required to do that

So the reason why Burnham would be required or would require loyalty from his MPs is that much missed phenomenon that was described at the time as the Red Wall

And this was people in largely northern constituencies who had somehow been persuaded that freedom of movement was bad for them

They were persuaded of that by liars and racists. Of course, they are not mutually exclusive descriptions

all of the racists are liars, but not necessarily were all of the liars racists

However, the idea that it would either reduce immigration or that immigration was a bad thing

or that it was damaging our country or damaging our economies was a lie, an often racist lie

The question really that Andy Burnham faces is whether or not that lie

whether or not that toxic rhetoric would be or could be successfully resurrected

And that, I think, is what I want you to go for first this week. The conversation about whether or not the time, I mean, and this is quite an interesting question, because, for example, if you fell for the lies of Nigel Farage, then you were expecting a massive uptick in people from Commonwealth countries coming to this country to replace Northern and Southern Europeans, because that's what he told you you were going to get

I kind of find myself thinking that's the key question. The key question here is whether or not freedom of movement, or as I suggested to you 10 years ago, liberty of motion, it would be called, whether or not that can be re-toxified, whether or not that is going to be a sticking point in this conversation

So I don't really want to have a phone in about the wisdom or otherwise of re-litigating Brexit

I, like you, am a little bit surprised to see that it's come around so completely and so quickly

I think whenever Burnham calls a general election, and if the opinion polls are to be even vaguely believed at the moment

then he's probably going to call it sooner than he needs to because I can't see things getting much better than they currently are

freedom of movement historically would be the big um the big kicker and i just want you to tell me

whether or not you think it could still be toxified whether or not when farage and his um and his little

army get back in the saddle they would be able to completely disown their previous arguments about

it completely ignore the fact that they called for more immigration from from commonwealth countries

so a lot of people from asia and the subcontinent who've come here have come as a direct consequence

of Brexit, which Nigel Farage wanted to happen. So if you're unhappy about that, you probably

shouldn't give him a second bite of the cherry or the benefit of the doubt the second time round

The claims that it would undercut wages in this country have been completely and historically

disproven. I've got one problem, and that's the neat. If we've got a million young people

not in education, employment or training, and I mean, although they will then be free to travel

anywhere in Europe in pursuit of employment and or training, you can see why there might be a slight wobble here

a slight wriggle here on the question of young people from other countries coming here to take up jobs

At the moment, and this is a terrible thing to say, especially for a patriot like me

at the moment, I don't know why they'd want to. We've got a real shortage of jobs

and the growth that we need would be boosted, not immeasurably, but considerably by the reintroduction of freedom of movement

So it's back in the news. It's back in the national conversation. And I can't see any meaningful rapprochement with the European Union

I can't see any meaningful strengthening of our relationship with the biggest single market in the history of humanity

unless we return to a reciprocal freedom of movement. So everybody gets it, of course, not just us

And I want you to tell me whether or not you think that this is..

What's the word I want? Is it just doable? I mean, have you changed your mind about freedom and movement in either direction

I think it's important for us, despite having, of course, been proved categorically right about Brexit

it's important for us to recognise that the world has changed. The world has really changed

And what you believe to be true in 2016 is not necessarily true now

The economic arguments for closer relations are irresistible, but they were irresistible in 2016

And this country, 52% of our electorate resisted it. Freedom of movement is a fascinating phenomenon

a fascinating phenomenon. And I want you to know where you think it will sit in British politics today

03456060973, and in our discourse. Have you changed your mind about it

Or are you still absolutely committed to it? If so, make the case. Remind us why it is such an important and powerful thing

You can't have the benefits, all of the other benefits, freedom of movement of goods, most obviously, freedom of movement of money, most obviously, huge economic benefits to any countries involved

And the bigger the single market, the bigger the benefits for the members. But you cannot have those without freedom of movement of people

The population of this country was appallingly abused in 2016 when they were told that that wasn't true

that we would somehow be able to continue to have freedom of movement of goods or freedom of movement of currency without having freedom of movement of people

Lots of the prominent Brexiters claimed that. I think it was Daniel Hanan who said absolutely nobody is talking about leaving the single market

whereas those of us who understood the issue sat here and went, no, you categorically are. You have to

Farage talked about a Norway option, which would not have got rid of freedom of movement of people

So I just suppose that I'm wondering whether or not you think the lies can be successfully inflated

or whether the population has become a little bit better. Let's try and have a slightly different conversation from the one that just looks at the wisdom or otherwise

of trying to rejoin the European Union. I want you to tell me what role you think freedom of movement is going to play in that conversation

Do you welcome it? Do you reject it? I think you're more interesting today

if your opinion is different from what it was in 2016. And if you like it, tell me why

And if you don't like it, tell me why not. It's 10.18. Phone lines are open. 0345 60 60 973 is the number you need

And remember, if you're the first caller today, then you'll be the first caller on the James O'Brien Plus subscription service

You'll probably get a blue plaque on your house at some point in the not too distant future

Although, obviously, terms and conditions apply. 0-3-4-5-6-0-6-0-9-7-3 is a number you need to tell me

what you think freedom of movement will mean in 2026 to British voters and indeed the British public it 10 20 minutes after 10 It not what some of us might have thought we wanted back in 2016

This is not a Labour leader 10 years later essentially saying we're going to slay all the anti-immigration unicorns

We're going to tell the truth. We're going to recognise the necessity in the modern world

of freedom of movement. It's a lot more bespoke than that. And there are a few things that typified the last debate that I just wonder whether they will come back round again

For example, it's freedom of movement of labour, not people. I should have said that

Other countries don't let anybody move to them unless they already have a job lined up

You can do that within the European Union. of all the things that I wish could have been injected into voters' brains back in 2016

that would be pretty near the top. But the fact that you can, within European Union rules

as other countries, most obviously Belgium, have done, have much stricter rules in place for who can and can't come here

So if you think of it as freedom of movement of labour, and the other point I would have made back then is that it's two-way

is generations of young people and old people. I mean, it means you can retire to Spain again

Generations of young people denied the opportunity to cut their teeth and broaden their horizons

and earn a crust in other countries. But when Burnham speaks about it

I want you to focus on a couple of things. He's kind of saying that temporary immigration

is preferable to permanent immigration, which is not necessarily the corrective that some of us thought would come around first

And he's addressing specific, even bespoke British issues. 22 minutes after 10 is the time

Here is the Prime Minister, Andy Burnham, speaking just moments ago. I was asked about how things have changed in the 10 years since Brexit

And the truth of the matter is we've lost immigration control in the way that we once had

For instance, the small boats crisis has arisen in the last 10 years because we lost that returns agreement when people came here that we could work with other countries to return them

And when it comes to immigration more broadly, we're seeing a situation where people are coming here to settle permanently in a way we had more revolving door migration in the EU

So what I'm saying as Prime Minister is we need to be honest about how life has changed in the 10 years since Brexit

The economy is weaker. Our control of immigration is weaker. And we need to have an honest discussion about that and take steps back to get a more functional relationship again

We have an EU-UK summit looming on the 20th of November. I want to use that opportunity to get a practical deal in place to support our farmers, our food manufacturers, but also to increase collaboration on immigration because we lost that and we need to get it back

So I'm talking about practical steps to deal with the things that matter to people

And I will never move ahead of the British public when it comes to Brexit

It is 24 minutes after 10 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

So, I mean, he is treating the British public with more respect than perhaps anybody did during the actual Brexit debate

He is suggesting that the detail, the specifics of our current situation deserve or demand a change in our relationship with the European Union

I can't argue with any of that. And I suppose my humanitarian heart slows a little at that distinction between permanent and temporary

You know, people who have made their lives here could listen to that and feel a little less welcome than they previously did

But that's kind of what I mean by cutting your cloth. That's kind of what I mean by addressing the current issues

And, of course, he is talking about a discourse with the British public, the majority of whom are broadly in favor of what he suggests, although the devil, as always, will be in the details

So what do you think freedom and movement will do, will represent in public discourse in 2026 and perhaps compared to what it did in 2016

Dave is in Lowestoft, where the fishing fleet has never looked back after all of the brilliant achievements and freedoms unleashed by Brexit, Dave

Well, it's a fantastic point. Yeah. Thanks for letting me. It's my first time

James, it's a strange one. I didn't actually vote on Brexit. Okay

For a simple reason. It was a great excuse. I went to see my mum when she was alive

and it was a good excuse not to vote. If I would have been forced to vote at the time

I would have voted to leave at the time, okay? Of course

And my view was nothing to do... One of the reasons why I'm glad I didn't vote

is I didn't want to be associated with racism and all that, that really was what Brexit was about

That's really what Brexit was about. Although there were a lot of people like you

I mean, I don't want to dig into your knowledge of the issues at the time and stuff like that

because that's the thing about a referendum is that it doesn't matter. You vote because you vote and you vote for what you fancy

But there were a lot of people who voted for it who don't deserve to be lumped in with the xenophobes

No, and I certainly, and I'm glad, really. I remember the result coming in

They were my mums. Yeah. And feeling a bit sick, really. Anyway, I didn't vote

I mean, I come from a sort of more left-wing standpoint, a Tony Benn argument that persuaded me over many years

To leave. And by the way, Tony Benn was no little Englander, by the way

It was a sort of international trade union movement that motivated his desire not to be in the European Union

and some of the powers that it gave to businesses. Yes. So that's my history

Since then, only recently I spoke to somebody and said, well, you know, it's probably a great thing, could be a vote winner

the opinion polls are such. What made me change my mind, James, a little bit over that view

and it's a real massive concern of mine, is I watched Andrew Neil, who's, by the way, no friend of Labour

Yeah. Anybody who thinks that, I spent a year... I don't think anybody thinks that

I mean, maybe they pretended when he worked at the BBC that he was impartial

but anybody with a brain could see... Very right wing. Very right wing

But the views that he expressed on Question Time was interesting in as much as

he made the point that Europe's not what it was 10 years ago

My main aim now is to do anything I can to stop reform getting elected

OK. And if you think about where Europe is at the moment

Le Pen likely to get elected. AFD. Yeah, in Germany. They've swapped to Obama, but the guy's not much better

I think he is. I mean, you know, the jury's out, but he's not going to go down some of the paths

No no I agree My point is that Europe isn the place it was That a very good point And this is just coming from the heart of Labour

I've always voted Labour. When I lived in Swindon, I was a Labour councillor

Would I really want to be involved with people that, A, are Putin supporters

the Germans and the French, and Italy have got a right-wing leader, albeit not as bad

Sure. And that's my point. my fear and it's a genuine fear uh and one of the reasons why i wanted to uh i thought that europe

was a good idea again was really to have a block against trump who is incredibly dangerous and

you've got parties on the rise that are very trump friendly exactly it's a really interesting

point mate possibly the most interesting point if the pro-putin thing with germany and france yeah

and and would we once we're in you can't go in and say hold on a minute i didn't sign up for this

I didn't want to be part of some fascist state of Europe

Well, remember, that's my fear. I get the business thing and anything that helps business

and anything that helps working people, but my massive fear is the rise of the right

Within the European Union. I mean, because it's really weird, isn't it

that you're motivated by the rise of the far right in this country

Your domestic voting intentions are defined by a desire to keep them out of power

and they of course rode to prominence Farage and his friends rode to prominence

on Brexit, on getting out of the European Union, so your international motivation

to keep the far right at bay leads you to the same side

of the argument as them You could have, I know this sounds ridiculous

None of this sounds ridiculous, none of this No, no, but you'll probably pick me up

on this, but the most ridiculous thing ever Can you imagine that block

of right wing fascists in Europe. And the irony in years to come

of Farage saying, it's a good thing we ought to get back in there. I know it sounds mad

It doesn't sound mad at all. What have we done? The EU is now a racist, fascist enterprise

What were we thinking when we pulled out of it? We should have hung around for a ringside seat

And that, along with the stuff that Burnham's done a great job

he's listed the hope of people. He has. Everybody's saying we're doing a little bit

Honestly, I do get the thing about the EU. Well, I'll get other callers to address this

You know, I veer closer than ever, I think, into the know-it-all territory when we talk about Brexit

But I don't have answers to your concerns, except to point out it's a much bigger bloc

than just France and Germany, And there is no guarantee that the AFD is going to win in Germany or that Marine Le Pen is going to win in France

And, of course, even if they do, the MEPs that get sent to Strasbourg are not necessarily of the same outlook as the domestic government

But, yeah, it's a proper concern. But what you've done, and I asked you not to, I'm teasing, is go straight in on the wisdom of rejoining or otherwise

rather than looking at whether or not freedom of movement is going. Freedom of movement or labor is going to be the massive sticking point that it was back in 2016

But I'm so intrigued by the points that you've raised that I'm going to withdraw that caution

that I don't want to talk about the wisdom or otherwise of rejoining because that notion of the EU becoming an ever more far right

and those parties are not in control. But I buy that now. I didn't buy it in 2016

I think, as you say, the world has changed and it seems a bit more valid in 2026

So address Dave's points, tell him why he doesn't need to worry about the rise of the far right in, for example, France and Germany when he contemplates the possibility of returning to the European Union or moving ever closer to the European Union

Or, and, you can do both or you can do either, just tell me what you think the freedom and movement debate is going to look like in 2026

Because I think we can probably all remember what it looked like and sounded like in 2016

Have you changed your mind? does the needs do the needs play a part and do i need to hit you over the head with the fact

that you get it as well you you get it your children get it you get it we get it we all

get it it's not just a thing that is done to us it is a thing that we benefit from in every

imaginable way 10 32 is the time dominic ellis has your headlines james o'brien on lbc

Time 35, a little game for you. If a former candidate in an election

so let's say that someone had stood for a major party, a household name political party as a candidate

had just been suspended from the party after being filmed discussing the cost of hiring contract killers

with investigative journalists. So apparently this character asked an undercover reporter

what he wanted done while apparently offering to broker the services of an alleged far-right paramilitary group

Take far-right out of that sentence. If this candidate, this former candidate who has been suspended

after apparently offering to hook up an investigative journalist with contract killers

and had been working in the leader's office as recently as last year

How big a story do you think that would be if the leader was Andy Burnham

Or let's just say working in a senior politician's office. How big a story do you think that would be if somebody had been suspended

a former candidate had been suspended from Labour after being filmed offering to hook an investigative journalist up

with apparent contract killers. How big a story do you think it would be

if that candidate had also been working in Angela Rayner's office or in Andy Burnham's office

or in David Miliband or David Lammy's office? How big a story do you think that would be

I even wonder how big a story that would be if this character had been found to be working in Nigel Farage's office

But it's not any of them. I'll tell you who it is shortly. And you tell me whether I'm going mad or whether or not this story would be absolutely everywhere

This certainly would not be the first you've heard of it if it was a Labour politician, a Labour candidate found to have been working in the leader's office last year and suspended this year after being filmed apparently offering an undercover reporter the services of a contract killer

because, you know, I spend a little bit of time trying to highlight to you

the imbalance and the biases in our media. But if it was a Labour politician, how big do you think this story would be

1038 is the time. Back to freedom of movement, liberty of motion. What's it going to look like the second time round

Michele is in Southampton. Michele, what would you like to say? Hello. Hi, James

Hello. Hi. I'm calling because your question about what it will look like in terms of political opinion

in 26. I'm Italian, so obviously I'm not unbiased. You benefited from it before we left, did you

Yeah, 2014. So I was, you know, yeah. I write with the Scottish referendum, actually

Yeah, I think that it will be pretty much the same. Maybe not exactly the same, but something similar

I think the climate that I've seen, I mean, 12 years, I think it is getting worse and worse in terms of, you know

being a foreigner in this country. And I think they're farage, you know

Would just relight the same bonfires. Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think it's easy to change targets when it comes to

And obviously, you know, I myself was somehow victim of some xenophobic accident after Brexit

And I'm as white as it can. You know, honestly, I look as British as people don't even believe I'm Italian

I bet you're not as white as me, mate. Yeah, well, it's a good competition

I'm pink. I'm puce, actually, most days, especially in this studio. Well, you've preempted my next question

and I don't know that Andy Burnham would ever want to unleash this rhetoric

but some of the people who were persuaded to hate Italians, in your case

or Poles, or not to want you here, Polish people most obviously probably

Romanians, they are now, of course, absolutely furious about the number of brown-skinned people who have come here

almost all legally, but of course, if they've come here in the small boats

they're even more furious and disgusted by it. A return to freedom and movement of labour

would be a return to largely white immigration, which might appeal to the kind of racists

who were actually persuaded last time around to turn against white Europeans like you

I'm not saying this is a good thing, I'm just suggesting it might change the debate

and make it quite different from what it was like back in 2016

Yeah, I think the argument could be similar I think, you know, getting to..

Well, you kind of mentioned it, like, you know, there are young people, unemployed, not in training

you know, Polish plumbers again. But they've all gone back. I mean, they're getting better wages now back in Poland

than they're getting here. I know, I know, I know. Okay, maybe it won't be plumbers. But I think my feeling, obviously, I don't know

but my feeling is that the rhetoric will be somehow similar. and I think it will work

to some extent. I think that if there is another referendum, I think this

Remain will win, but I think it will be kind of close, because I think

there is a good, strong minority that will fall again into the same

trap, like in 2016. Yeah, yeah, I mean you might be right, and they will be falling

into the same traps of not understanding the reciprocal nature of freedom

of movement, and indeed freedom of movement of labour, not understanding that it's up to

member states what rules they put in place for who can and who can't come here to work. But

Burnham's key selling point, this is what I mean, it's slightly discomforting for people like you

who've made lives here. But Burnham's key selling point seems to be that people will come for

briefer periods of time and they won't want to settle here or bring a family with them. They

might want to, they might meet someone here and start a family. But the difference post Brexit

it is that in order to persuade people to come here to do the jobs that were previously being

done by beneficiaries of freedom of movement of labor they had to make the offer more attractive

which is why people talk about a boris wave but it depresses me slightly that the entire

conversation is now conducted under the um the false premise that immigration is de facto bad

when it is obviously de facto good 100 million pounds i think is the annual figure that the nhs

is predicted to lose now as a consequence of there not being enough foreign workers here

paying the premiums that they pay in order to access the NHS. I wonder how many people even know that they pay premiums

It's extraordinary. It's like being furious about the pedestrianization of Oxford Street

despite the fact they haven't been there since 1999. 10.43 is the time

Tim's in Amsterdam. Thank you, Michele. Tim, what would you like to say? Yeah

Hey, James. It's my first time. I'm a big fan. Hey, so, yeah, no, my wife and I, we actually just moved to the EU over the UK specifically because of the freedom of movement

Wow. Yeah. We both work in health care, and we've been looking to move out of the U.S. for some time

Why? Everything's great there. Why would you not want to stay? Yeah

About the time that the National Guard got deployed to our hometown, we decided to skedaddle

Focuses the mind, that, I think, Tim, doesn't it, somewhat? Yeah, sure. of that kind of fascistic deployment

But so you had offers here. You could have come here. You are, you know, attractive propositions

you and your wife, for our workforce. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, we're both like high-earning individuals

You know, I don't want to give numbers, but, you know, like, yeah, yeah, but, you know, and work fairly independently

and definitely would be attractive, which is why the EU, the Netherlands in particular

made it really easy for us to move here. because now you've got freedom of movement across the whole of europe

yeah yeah self-determination of relocation that's really interesting and and do you think i mean for

i suppose language reasons most obviously and perhaps cultural ones as well had we still been

in the european union then you probably would have been settling here now no probably i mean

we just spent uh my wife's 40th birthday in edinburgh over the weekend it was absolutely

lovely and does your work i mean will you be based entirely in amsterdam or are you going to

be quite mobile as a worker. I'm quite mobile. My wife primarily works from home

So the attraction there of being in a block that size and having all of the options that that

entails is actually pretty irresistible. That's a fascinating perspective, Tim, because it's one

that we wouldn't really think of in the context of our debate. It cuts both ways. We want people

to come here because it will be good for our economy. And we want to enjoy the freedoms that

you enjoy by dint of living in the Netherlands. And we don't have those. You, as an American in

the Netherlands, have more freedom in Europe than I do as a lifelong born and bred European. It's

insane. And of course, it was done to us by people who insisted that this would never happen

There was no referendum on leaving the single market. There was no referendum on leaving the

customs union. There was no referendum on ending freedom and movement of labor. In fact, an awful

lot of people who encouraged British people to vote to leave the European Union insisted that

it would not entail any or all of those three things. And yet, of course, it did. So any claim

that this is a betrayal of a mandate or a betrayal of a vote is as dishonest as the claim back in 2016

that leaving the European Union wouldn't mean leaving the single market. And guess what

The same people lying about it being a betrayal were the people that lied about it not entailing

leaving the single market. Funny, that. Cheers, Tim. 10.46 is the time

James O'Brien on LBC. It's 10.49. The government debt ratio can be higher than 60 of GDP We way off that mark So questions about whether rejoining the European Union would involve joining the euro are for the time being at least very very moot

Freedom of movement, however, would be non-negotiable. Freedom of movement of labor

Will it be the toxic mess defined in many ways by lies, misinformation and racism that it was last time

and if you think I'm exaggerating then just remember the names of the people who were

prominent during that debate and the things they were saying at the time compared to the things that they're saying now 10 50 is the time Josh is in Brussels appropriately enough Josh what

would you like to say hello James long time no speak I've missed you man you do I missed you too

so uh look I I felt compelled to vote to phone look you know a bit about my background uh I left

britain in 2016 as soon as the root came in i decided i couldn't be there because i knew what

was coming i work in ai i work in building data centers and one of the things that i've learned

over the last 10 years that's really obvious to me is the lessons of brexit haven't really been

learned and that english exceptionalism specifically is still there right the reality of it is the way

I look at it is this. If you're under 35 years old and you have

a graduate degree or you're fairly well qualified or you've got some good qualifications

if there were freedom of movement, what would you do? And considering the high, the needs that we have in the

UK, you'd leave. And I think this is something that people aren't considering. There's always this

idea in people's head that everybody wants to go to the UK. The reality is, if you are young

and mobile and you've got a good skill set and you've got access to the rest

of the European Union and you're in the UK and you can't get a job. You're so right. I mean, it's an

extraordinary cohort of highly qualified young graduates struggling to find work that's commensurate with their

qualifications and their chances of finding it increase exponentially according to how many places they're allowed

to work. I mean, there'd be language issues and things like that, but an awful lot of

commerce is likely to be conducted in English. And if they're bright people, they're going to be

able to learn languages with a degree of ease. Yes. I mean

The other thing as well that goes with it is that, you know, I constantly get phone calls because of the industry I'm in to come back to the UK

And I'm always explaining to them there's no need for me to come back to the UK because my quality of life where I live in the Netherlands and I live partly in Belgium is higher than it would be in the UK

I'm paid more money for what I do. And all of the EU is actually having a large building AI data centers specific to the EU because of the sovereignty in cloud that the cloud that the Americans brought in

which basically means they can switch off all of these high-end data center cloud providers

can be compelled to do that by Trump. So the EU is now building its own resources

and putting a lot of money into building AI inside the EU for sovereignty reasons

so that the data doesn't leave. And there's a huge demand for people, and Britain's not going to be at the table

So these are the kind of things that have happened. I work specifically in this game. these are the things that are going on that the UK has missed out on over the last 10 years

and yes the EU has changed we all know it's changed there's lots of a lot there are right

wingers but the reality of it is in my opinion they will not work with them in power they don't

work with them in power in Belgium I suspect the Germans will do the same and I suspect the French

who have done this on previous occasions when they've had Le Pen will do the same again so

Britain Britain's the one that's lost that but and Britain Britain historically was a was a was a

sort of a bulwark against French and German dominance within the European Union

It was another point that was missed back in 2016. Yes, yes

And, you know, I look at all these things. I'm watching Burnham and I'm happy that the debate's been had

But the conversations being had inside, you know, with my European friends

and some of the colleagues who I work with is eye-rolling, not again

Why can't they make their mind up? Britain is confused. There's all these things

And this narrative that the UK is exceptional has to stop because it's damaging the country even more than people realize

And I don't know how widespread it is, actually. I don't think it's going to be commonplace among your generation and not necessarily among mine either

But among the older generation, you're taking us right back to the they need us more than we need them rhetoric

Exactly. Utterly bogus. Utterly and completely bogus. In a way, we're Poland now

In some ways, you know, I thought that. For graduates, not for graduates

rather than for construction workers or tradesmen, but we're the ones that would benefit more, arguably

from having freedom of movement for our workers than other countries have for coming here

It's really weird that you say that because when I was on the call and I was thinking it's almost a reverse Poland

In other words, you know, if you're young, hungry and you've got some sort of skill set

and you may have seen how other people benefit when Britain was in the EU

you might take your chances. The other thing that I think is significant that people are not factoring in

there's two things very quickly. The same people who are in front of the camera and behind the camera

in the UK and the press and media are still there. They have not said it was a mistake

There are even presenters on your very own lovely LBC who are in situ and not saying a word

and they were advocates of Brexit. Mate, they were advocates of Boris Johnson, Liz Trust

Donald Trump, Benjamin Netanyahu, and austerity as well, so don't hold your breath

Yeah, I know, but the point being is people need to start calling them out for it, and I think if we don't do that

what will happen is you'll have the same real amount from 2016, and that's what I really want people to be aware of

that things have changed, and I think the one thing is Brexit had to be hit in people's pockets

before they realised it was a mistake, and this is why i keep coming back to this exceptionalism argument

that they the idea is everybody wants to come here that it's not the case no no it's not and

and i mean it is something that people like nigel farage who's already resurrecting the nonsense about

working wages getting undercut um it they're never going to understand it you know he's allowed to

go and work in in strasbourg or in brussels if he ever did any work um but the idea of

generations of young people being denied that as a consequence of the ignorance and boneheadedness

of their parents' generation remains as heartbreaking as it was in 2016, but possibly as plausible

possibly as plausible. And Nick, that line about Poland off Anthony, Josh, I should give credit

where credit is due. He texted that in. Thank you. And speaking of sort of messages that are coming

into the studio. A couple that talk about betrayal and things like that. But you didn't vote for this

You literally didn't vote for that. I'm not going to call you stupid. I'm going to call you gullible

Because the people that were persuading you to vote for Brexit will, in many cases, have insisted

that it didn't mean the abolition of free movement. I think Johnson did that. It didn't mean leaving

the single market. I think Daniel Hannan did that. It might mean the Norway option. I think Farage did

that. They offered you a million different Brexits, none of which came true

and all of which were unfeasible and the Brexit you got is rubbish but it pride that makes it hard for people to admit that 10 is the time

Freedom of Movement says, Mark, is based heavily on class. As a lorry driver, no way would I want it back

Unless, of course, you want to drive lorries across the biggest single market in the world

and deliver to 27 countries instead of just one, mate. So, you know, I don't know whether you're a different class

from international hgv drivers but i doubt it wins in horsham when what would you like to say

ah good morning james yeah i'm really i'm interested that you have the that uh guy that's

a ai specialist on because i was going to mention i worked in it and before freedom of movement

it workers are very specialized you know once they get past the the lower stages they start

to specialize in particular code, particular functions, particular applications. And if you're a bigger company, you have projects

you want to pull people in. We were able to pull people in from the whole of Europe

without any difficulty. We had Polish programmers, we had French programmers and all sorts, and it went the other way as well

I worked for a Swedish telecom company for a while and a lot of my colleagues went and worked in Sweden

for a few years. The whole point about freedom of movement is

it gives business and the workers in it a lot of flexibility and i was in favor of it when it was

you know when we had it before and i'm really pleased to see it coming back again although for

me i'm retired now so it's not going to affect me so much for my niece and nephew who took advantage

of him and currently living in the netherlands and sweden um it might give them the opportunity

to come back to this country and come you know flow backwards and forwards without any trouble

there was one interesting thing though and that is how the different countries affected

i had a colleague who was an indian national if i needed to send him to the netherlands or to

germany or to sweden not a problem if i had to send him to belgium yeah we didn't because belgium

had its own rules and that gave all sorts of you know needed visas and all sorts of things to for

him to be able to work there because he wasn't a citizen he wasn't a citizen of a european he

wasn't an eu citizen well even if he had been belgium has slightly i mean i mean i know this

guy had work lined up but belgium if you didn't have work lined up could be quite strict about

letting eu people in as well which so absent from the conversations in 2016 every day was a

was a school day for me and yet sadly an awful lot of people never learned the lessons of that i i

i'm a bit more optimistic than i expected to be as we near the end of this hour i think it would

be very hard for them to resurrect exactly the same arguments as last time can i add

because another point you can yeah absolutely um nobody seems to have mentioned the neats

well i did actually in my defense well you did right at the beginning none of your callers

but at the time and it was never really stressed at the time just like belgium has its own rules

we could have had our own rules here that said yes it's a training position you've got to offer

it to a local person first before you bring someone else from outside you've got you know

sort of jobs a company has to offer a job for say three months in the local area before they can

bring someone in we could have had those rules and to get around the the immediate argument about

or they're all going to bring in cheap workers and things like that so you know if we're going

to have this argument and I'm glad that Andy Burnham has decided

to bring this out from under the stone, the rock where it was hiding

Yeah, me too. And if we're going to have this argument, then we need

to be ready to face up to the rubbish that is going to

get chucked at us. And we need to have answers. And we need to be ready. And it would

be nice if some of the people who were dishonest or disingenuous last time managed

to discover a little bit of principle or integrity this time. Boris Johnson, for example

was, we were told by, four EU ambassadors that Boris Johnson had been speaking up for freedom of movement even after

the vote came in when Theresa May was trying to cobble a deal together. But again, expecting him

to suddenly discover a core of honesty and decency is probably a little bit too much. 11.01 is the

time. And another point made here on Blue Sky is that the burden of proof has flipped. 10 years ago

Remainers had to defend an imperfect status quo against fantasy. Now, Brexit is the status quo

so Leavers would have to prove that this is brilliant, and rejoiners would simply have to

argue that this would be better, and that's just objectively true. It's 11.01. Nogatana Polsky

will join us at 11.45 today from Jerusalem to give us a quick heads up on both tomorrow's

elections in Israel and Benjamin Netanyahu's latest intervention, latest demonstration of of allyship and loyalty to the United Kingdom by joining Argentina when it comes to the future of

the Falkland Islands. I kid you not, another story that perhaps might have got a little bit more

coverage if our media was even vaguely balanced, which reminds me, I must tell you about

which party leader it is that has had a former candidate working in their office until very

recently, who was meeting with investigative journalists and apparently promising to hook

them up with contract killers. Again, if that was Labour, you'd know about it. It's 11.02

James O'Brien on LBC. Six minutes after 11, a bit of a departure next. And not a sentence that I've

said before, but Sylvester Stallone has really got me thinking. I'm a huge fan of Sylvester Stallone

by the way, perhaps not quite as big a fan as Roy Keane is. I don't know if you watch the podcast that Roy Keane does

with Gary Neville and others. It's brilliant, actually, really brilliant. Even if you don't like football, some of these podcasts

are just sort of conversational, aren't they, or that dread word banter. But Roy Keane is a sort of famously tough guy

if you don't follow football or you didn't follow football 20 years ago. And yet he is obviously an enormous fan of Sylvester Stallone

and Stallone was appearing on their podcast. And Roy Keane turned up in a Sylvester Stallone T-shirt

which is so out of character. I can't really exaggerate enough how out of character that is

And he looked like a little starstruck boy. It was beautiful. I love things like that

I don't know why I get very moved when the child moves closer to the surface of an adult than usual

whether it's a display of vulnerability or, in this case, simply a display of utter enthusiasm

out of them. It was just a really lovely moment. And I really get it. I think

Stallone was possibly the most misunderstood or misrepresented star of his era

There's a new film out about getting Rocky made. And the fact that, although he wrote it and it was

entirely his baby and he was really on his uppers at the time, there may be

some mythology attached to the story that he had to sell his dog. He was so

skint, but he wouldn't let anybody else play Rocky. He absolutely insisted. And then

he won an Oscar for the screenplay. He wrote it. And yet he got portrayed in popular media as a

as a bit of a meathead, you know, simply because he had this ludicrous physique

But, um, I he was he was a really clever thoughtful um a brilliant writer and and actor the rambo series certainly the the first rambo film is a is a masterpiece of uh almost veterans rights looking

at the betrayal of vietnam veterans by the american government and so nuanced and i saw it

relatively recently but oh um i love the guy and he's done something that feels to me to be

one of those things where you go yeah he's right and yet we all pretend that he isn't or we have

all spent a long time pretending that he isn't he has he's got a new series out called tulsa king i

think it's in its third or fourth series now he's the star of it he's the executive producer of it

it's about a mafia boss who comes out of prison after a very long sentence and has to has to

relocate and supposedly stay under undercover. And his daughter is in the show. He's hired his

daughter, because he's the executive producer, to act in it. And people have accused him. Do you

say Nepo or Nepo? Can I just check with my colleagues? Nepotism. We say Nepo. It's the

Greek, isn't it? So it would be Nepo. It's Nepotism. And people have accused him of nepotism

he's picked up on it himself on USA Today he said first they go nepotism is terrible

and then he says something that I don't know anyone can argue with

oh please he said you're not a good parent if you haven't performed a little nepotism

then obviously you don't care about your kids because they come first

of course it's nepotism you idiot it's a man off to my own heart

of course it's nepotism you idiot that's why we're parents we want the best for our children

So obviously we let them have every advantage. Debates around nepo babies, kind of more and more popular than they've ever been, partly due to, I guess, bless him, people like Brooklyn Beckham having access to extraordinary opportunities without necessarily displaying any obvious talent

But this kind of nepotism, I think Sylvester Stallone would argue, gets you through the door. Whether or not you stay on the other side of the door is probably up to you

So, I think he's right. In fact, I've always thought this since I became a parent, that it's almost an evolutionary urge

I know he's a Trump fan, and obviously I'm not an admirer of that side of his life or his politics, if indeed he still is

An awful lot of them seem to be a jumping ship, a lot of rats abandoning that particular ship at the moment

I would never call Sylvester Stallone a rat, certainly never to his face. But I'm a fan, a very big fan of his Hollywood career, his acting career, to be clear

I've always thought this is an evolutionary urge that you would do everything you can to help your child

neither of my children currently want to move into professions even remotely aligned with mine

which is something of a relief but if they did, how could you not help them

I mean seriously, this is the point Sylvester Stallone is making everybody recognises that you do

Well, no, it's not true that everybody does. But everybody who uses this phrase or talks about nepotism as being a bad thing is, I think, denying an almost fundamental human trait, which is that you look after your chicks, your cubs, your children

You look after them first. You can look after other people as well

But your top priority, surely, is going to be your own children, isn't it

I think it is. I used to say that I didn't benefit from nepotism. I used to say that I didn't get any legs up from my father, who was a newspaper journalist, which is all that I ever wanted to be when I grew up

And as I get older, I realize it's actually quite a nuanced business, nepotism

It's not just someone making a phone call to someone and saying, could you give my boy a job, which definitely didn't happen

By the time I was ready to try and get a job on Fleet Street, my father's contacts had either passed away or been made redundant, which was the fate of him and a lot of his generation on national newspapers

But does this count as nepotism? I think it probably does. When my dad was on The Telegraph, he's the Midlands correspondent on The Daily Telegraph, he would sometimes have young, fresh-faced graduate trainees sent to shadow him for a couple of weeks to learn the ropes, to learn about being a proper kind of regional man

You know, a journalist who's got contacts everywhere from county court to trade unions to the to the manufacturers to the National Union of Mine Workers through to the coal board

The kind of journalist whose phone never stopped ringing. And so they would send these usually Oxbridge graduates to shadow dad

And for many of them, it was a complete baptism by fire. and one of the journalists sent to to shadow my dad was it was a chap called charles moore

who was a fresh-faced young oxbridge graduate who'd been taken on to the telegraph i think as

a trainee and and and he and i met him because he you know had dinner in our house and i when i

when when i was trying to get ahead in journalism he came to give a talk at my university trying to

get a job not a head and and so I went and reminded him of this connection and he sorted me out with

some work experience because by then he was the editor of the Sunday Telegram and it led precisely

nowhere I I thought it would be like a little trial and if I was any good there'd be a job at

the end of it when I got there there were three other kids doing work experience and they were all

they'd just left school I just left university so I was kind of lumped in with no complaints it was

a break that I wouldn't have got if I hadn't had that connection I might have done if I'd written in. But I think that's nepotism. Because I never would have met him if it wasn't for my dad. My dad

didn't do anything to get it for me. But it was because of my dad that I had that connection

And when I was there, I made not friends necessarily, but I made contact with the news

editor. And a year later, that news editor had moved to the Daily Express. And I applied for a

traineeship there. I never got any of these traineeships. But I knew the news editor. So

when I got turned down for the traineeship, he said, well, maybe you could come back and do a

shift or why don't you try and get a story for the diary and then we can we can see if we can get you

some shifts there and then i sold a white suit to john major and i phoned up the diary and i got in

and did a so all of these things only happened i think because of that initial connection that i

had through my dad so dad never picked up the phone dad never called in a favor dad never did

anything couldn't he would have done if he could have done let me be absolutely clear he would have

he would have thrown himself under a bus for me and my sister. But by the time I came to try to

get into the profession that he had been in, there was nothing he could do for me

But I still think that that counts as nepotism. I still think that I kind of

had a little bit of a boost as a consequence of who my dad was. And it also meant that when

I got onto newspapers. I could make connections with older journalists because they knew him

And, you know, I was his boy. So despite being a useless public school educated graduate

which was anathema to a lot of the old school, to my dad's generation of journalists

because I was Jim O'Brien's son, I got a little bit of a break from some of the old bruises on my newspaper

and others around the industry. I don't know. Isaac says that's not nepotism, that's networking

Dougie says that's not nepotism, that's just privilege. It may be, but it was a privilege that came of my family connections

my nepo connections. So, 16 minutes after 11 is the time. I mean, doesn't everybody do this

Does anybody really refuse to give their own children a leg up

if they're capable of doing so. Are you nepo and proud, I suppose, is the question

Because if either of my daughters wanted to get into this industry, I'd move heaven and earth to get them a break

A break. I don't own the company, so it's not going to be like the Daily Mail

where they ran an article last week about how terrible it is that so many actors are related to famous actors

without mentioning that the son of the current owner has had the right old executive red carpet rolled out for him

So there are some... If your dad owns the whole thing, that's a very different sort of nepotism

You're going to end up lording it over people who are more committed and more talented than you are

But if your dad or your mum can get you a break, can get you a break

then why wouldn't they? Why wouldn't they? Also, the other thing that's always struck me

and I don't think Sylvester Stallone made this point, is that if your dad was a lorry driver

you probably grow up wanting to be a lorry driver yourself. If your dad was a postman

I mean, a lot of us grow up wanting to do what our dads did. And now it will include mums as well

Of course, the world is changing. The world has turned. And no one would ever complain about a postman

getting his daughter or his son a job in the post office or helping them get a foot in the door for an interview

It's only the jobs that are perceived as glamorous, showbiz and media and the like, where other people appear to have a bit of a problem with parents doing what parents do in every other walk of life, in every other sector, in every other field without any criticism at all, without any criticism at all

So I want good and bad stories. I'd like you to tell me about the time that there was nepotism in your career and it was a disaster because the person who got promoted or the person who got favored was just simply not up to the job

So when nepotism goes wrong, 03456060973. But the other element of this conversation

the one that I think has not really been had before, is the point raised by Sylvester Stallone

Of course, of course you do everything you can to help your own children

It's kind of like rule one of being a parent, isn't it

Isn't it? So we can have an argument about that, like a nice argument

You can say, no, I didn't. I mean, did you really refuse? You know when really rich people say they're not going to give their children any money

I kind of get it because they say, I want them to stand on their own two feet. I kind of get it

And then the other bit of me goes, that's really horrible. I mean, also, I never really believe it

I don't think you're going to see any of the children of billionaires who've been told they have to stand on their own two feet

selling the big issue outside Charing Cross Station anytime soon. I'm sure they get something

But, I mean, how do you deny your children? It's hard to deny them anything

My generation is a bit different from my dad's. My dad never had any particular difficulty denying me things like sweets or mini motorbikes or home computers or videos

I find it much harder to deny my girls anything. But to deny them help in their career

How would you do that? How could you do that? 0345 6060

973 is the number you need. I want good and bad examples Also

should we go in on it a bit intellectually? Do you fancy that

When does it become bad? Mum, will you help me can I come to work with you

Will you help me get a placement? Can I do some work experience at your place of work? Can you phone Aunty Doris

and ask her if I can have a holiday job with her? Of course I will darling

I'm your mum. That's not bad right? Is that already a problem? It's unfair

It's unfair. But life's unfair. I'm going to insist that you ignore the fact that I am

established in this industry and insist that you make your own way and I'm not going to lift a finger

for you. That's just weird, isn't it? Isn't it? I'm kind of glad

that I don't have skin in this particular game at the moment, but if either of my

daughters did develop a desire to get into this business, then I would help them. Of course I would

help them. I've helped other people's children. I've helped the children of listeners get a break

in this business, but I'm not going to sit here blowing my own trumpet even more than I usually do

I've got a subscription service to promote, but I've helped other people's children get into this

industry, including just listeners. And by that, I mean, when I say just, I mean people I don't know

outside work. What's your view on this? Stallone's right, isn't he? It's a fundamental parenting

urge to help your own children. Who doesn't do it? 03456060973. And

the difference between good and bad. And also, put your hand up

and say, I was a benefit of nepotism, and look what I've achieved since. So my parents

were right to give me a break. All of this, any angle you want

I love this conversation, because I think that I think that Sylvester Stallone has said something that we kind of all know to be true

but that many people are a little bit too frightened to admit. 0345 6060 973 is the number you need

It's 11.22. James O'Brien on LBC. 24 minutes after 11. So it's a funny one, this, isn't it

Because it is obviously unfair. I'm sitting there with my face pressed up against the sweet shop window

and you waltz in and start guzzling gobstoppers simply because your dad knows the sweet shop owner

That's really unfair. But it's an utterly unrealistic expectation upon your dad

to ask him not to. So I think I want to know when it's good and when it's bad

what we call nepotism. In your life, it was good and you justified the faith that was shown in you

or in your life it was bad because the person that was brought in over you by being the nephew

of a board member was an absolute muppet? 0345 6060 973. Tiago's in Bristol. Tiago, what have you got

Oh hi James Thanks for having me on I work on the film and TV industry So if we talking nepotism you know I drowning on it And it one of those things when i first was trying to get myself into the industry i used to resent it greatly particularly

as someone who didn't have any connections and who had to knock many many doors and have them

shut in my face time and time again uh and once i got in you know you start getting a picture you

seeing how the surroundings are, who is who and what's what. And now my opinion is a little bit different

First, because I remind myself that if I have stayed home, I'll probably be running my dad's business for no other merit but my DNA

Right. And I have to accept that. That's most likely what I'll be doing because why not

Why not take the advantage of a family business to build my life on

and because I then clearly seen the difference of those who abuse their power and their influence

to install their children, nephews and whatever other connections and people who actually, if you look at it, the whole family business

the whole family working in entertainment, whatever form it is, and it would be unfair to expect the children to do something entirely different

when they lived and birthed their whole lives and we actually lose the talent. Is there cognitive dissonance here

Is it a tension between the obvious unfairness of it and the obvious inevitability of doing it, if you're able to

Absolutely, because I feel like if I had a child, you know, and if they had interest in doing what I do

that I would have to find a way to help them. How could you not? That would be weird, right

I mean, imagine what that relationship would be like. But, Dad, you could do this. Just make one phone call for me

no, I'm not doing it. You can fight your own way up by your bootstraps like I had to

Well, we wouldn't expect anyone else in a different trade as well to do it

I think it's a lot to do with our perception of what is merit and what's deserved

and what level of permanence that person and that role has. And for me, I've seen very clearly it's hard to regulate

because it's hard to understand people's real motivation. and i've seen people who have the children who you know they are part of a whole family business

does what what they do and some of them will use the influence to to get the children a position

on a production where they are not working so that the child has the opportunity to show the

work for you know their work to prove who they are is it just envy then is the whole nepo baby

phenomenon just based on a form of envy and unfairness because no one is disputing that

it's unfair in a proper meritocracy you have a hundred people applying for a job and somehow

an algorithm is capable of identifying which of those hundred people is the best but

that's just nuts some some bosses some some interviewers really like firm handshakes others

couldn't care less some people may have a subconscious affinity for blue eyes some people

might be a little bit racist. I mean, you've got 100 people in a line being interviewed for the same job

The idea that the objectively most gifted and suitable candidate is going to get the job

is pie in the sky, even perhaps with AI, although AI might change it slightly

So all of the complaints are contingent upon the fact that all of the jobs, all of the sectors

that admit the Nepo baby criticism are, for want of a better word, cool

So you talked about TV. You wouldn't mind if, you know, someone working on building sites got their son a break while someone else didn't get the same break

It's just that the industries where nepo baby is a thing are cool industries, desirable, glamorous industries

I do think it plays part. I mean, envy is such a charged word

Yes, it really is. And it's quite different for me to articulate this because, you know, the same measure that I use to determine whether someone is misusing their influence or not is as fluid and as personal to me as anything else

You know, where I draw a line thinking, oh, this person misused their influence to install a useless family member on this production

to seeing someone who I later found out that they were part of a massive dynasty

in whatever department they were, and I would have never known because that person made sure that it wasn't how they led

They would introduce themselves as, I'm the child of so-and-so. They were working entirely away from the circle of influence of their..

I think I'd want to do that. If I had grown up as the child of incredibly influential people

I probably would have wanted to make my own way. I mean, staying in Hollywood, I think that might be why

Emilio Estevez kept the original family name, whereas his brother Charlie Sheen took their dad's stage name as well

I mean, I don't know whether Emilio Estevez was going for auditions without people realizing that he was Martin Sheen's son

But when you're a kid, you kind of think, I'm going to make it on my own. I'm going to make it my own way

Where's the distinction? Thank you, Tiago. Where are we going to put the distinction on this

because I read a couple of criticisms of me. Given that you're a man with such a strong moral core

that's very kind, your views are clearly skewed by dint of being a loving dad

I'm genuinely surprised by your output on this, writes Jay, but being a loving dad is really important

and it's a really good thing to be. So when does it become bad

So it is utterly unrealistic to expect a parent not to help their child, right

But I'm thinking now of the X factor and I'm thinking now of the point at which it is cruel for a parent to persist in promoting

their child's ambitions to be a singer for example at some point the loving dad has to say

this isn't for you the loving dad has to say look we've tried and and it's not it's time to look for

something else um that is also being a loving dad so when when is it bad when is nepotism bad

I mean it's never entirely good but it's inevitable it begins being inevitable

when does it become bad 03456060973 drawing on your experiences or just on your insights

because Stallone is right if you are a loving parent you will help your children

and this sort of social message we're receiving now that that is a bad thing

it's a little bit silly 11.31 is the time Dominic Ellis has your headlines

James O'Brien on LBC. It is 11.34. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

And Gary's just pointed out all of the trades vans that have and son written on the side

or increasingly and daughter. So funeral directors in Norfolk I used to drive past all the time

that had and daughters on all of the signage. So that's nepotism, right

Isn't it? Do we need to go back to the beginning of this conversation

and define it? In a way, before we can work out when nepotism is a problem, there's no way that Sylvester Stallone's daughter would be in this TV show if she was an absolute clunker

You know, if everybody watching it just went, she can't act. There's no earthly way that that would be sustainable

I can't think of any examples, really, of nepotism being publicly disastrous for everybody involved But nobody ever complains when a building van goes past

and it says Keith and sons on the side or Eleanor and daughters

Nobody ever complains about that. So when is, I think perhaps the question that I'm asking

when is nepotism a problem? you've even got formula one drivers who have followed their fathers into that profession right

and it's a pretty exacting business formula one driving i said to you about six months ago

you never get a rubbish formula one driver and you all sent me the same name i don't follow formula

one which is hardly surprising given that i don't really do motoring although i am now the proud

owner of an electric car which is very exciting so i said to you about six months ago

you can't be a rubbish formula one driver you might not win any races but simply by

being able to drive that thing around the track you've got to be pretty good you've got to be

and you all sent me the same name i can't remember what his name was but you all sent me the same

name so obviously it does exist it is a thing but you wouldn't survive in that industry unless you

were able to cut the mustard formula one teams want to win championships if they end up with the

son of a famous driver an andretti or a vestappen on their team then it can't possibly be nepotism

because that must be the driver that they think they're most likely to win the championship with

but they wouldn't have got their first break i mean how many people might have been brilliant

formula one drivers but they're never you know i put your hand down keith but they're never do you

I just don't know that we've spent anything like enough time actually working out, A, what it really is

and B, when it's bad. So, Francis Ford Coppola, his daughter Sophia

appears, I think, in Godfather 3. Other people wouldn't have got that role. Or rather, other people might have wanted that role

but she got it. And then she goes on to make films as a director that are stone-cold masterpieces

She is clearly, like her father, a brilliant cineast. And yet the likelihood of my daughter having the correct opportunities and the right chances to become a massive film director are really slim, are relatively tiny

Even with whatever help I might be able to give her, it's going to be as nothing compared to the help that Francis Ford Coppola can give her

So I just want to be sure that we actually know what it is and when it's bad

0-3-4-5-6-0-6-0-9-7-3 is the number that you need. The time is 11.38. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

Let me just take a moment to remind you of the big announcement that I made at the top of the show today

We're launching a subscription service. I was thinking about doing a sub stack or something like that, but I'm doing it here because this is home

This is family. It's called James O'Brien Plus, and it involves new and exclusive bonus content for you every single week

I'm going to be writing things. I'm going to be recording things. And on top of that, you get unfettered access to everything that goes out on broadcast, whether the podcast or the radio show

But you can get it all without any adverts at all. If you want to find out more, then just head over to the Global Player

Go to Global Player. Head to the podcast page and go on the subscription option

You can click on it. It is an absolutely ridiculous $4.99 a month because there's no point doing this if it's either prohibitively expensive

or the kind of sum of money that is unrealistic. So for $4.99 a month, you get all of the new stuff

and you get all of the current stuff without any adverts whatsoever

So head over there. There's a seven-day free trial if you're already a Global Player user

And if you want to sign up for the full year, then it's $49.99

No special discounts for family members. Absolutely no nepotism involved here. Back to that conversation

James is in Reading. James, what would you like to say? Hi, Al. Yeah, I just wanted to say, on the example that you gave to do with, you know, a builder's son, you know, working in the business, for example, I think, for me, with nepotism, the distinguishing part of it is, you know, how competitive and potentially, you know, how lucrative the industry or the business or the job or the role is

So that's envy, then, mate. I don't care about nepotism unless it's a really glamorous

well paid job in which case it's awful I don't think it's awful

I think it comes down to fairness you know there are a lot of industries

and you know acting for instance is one of them where people can get a massive

step up and gain a huge advantage on that and there are thousands of people

who will definitely be as qualified or as good as that. Yeah, and probably better

One of my best friends is an actor and it actually drives him nuts, nepotism

I mean, truly nuts, actually. I mean, he finds it almost unbearable

to reflect upon the careers of people that he doesn't think are anywhere near as good as him

but who have got very recognisable surnames. But why is that worse? Just run me through this thing about glamour

I mean, why is it worse to do that than it is to do it in, shall we say

more ordinary industries? purely because of it i i see it as unfair you know i think the difference is people have always

followed in you know family lines of industries um and trades and things like that and and that

there's nothing wrong with that you know a parent could work in it and then their children are more

exposed to that and then they might work in it that isn't nepotism that's just it is it is nepotism

But it's not because you're just following in something that you've got interest in. You're not..

Well, they are. So are the actors and actresses. So are the actors and actresses

But the difference is whether they've been given an easier opportunity to land, you know..

Mate, I've got my name on the side of my son's van. It literally says Jameson's son

That doesn't get any easier than that. But was that opportunity... Would that opportunity not have been there

if it wasn't your son, for example. Yeah, I need an apprentice

I need someone. I'm not going to interview. I'm not going to advertise the job. I'm going to give it to my boy

Are apprentices struggling to get work in trade at the moment? Yes

I mean, if that's the case, then I would... So here's a better word for you

Over-subscription. So if there are hundreds and hundreds of people who want that spot... Yes

Then it feels more unfair to give it to... a friend of your mum's or to give it to your own kid

than it would do if there were not hundreds and hundreds of people

chasing that very specific spot. Exactly, yeah. And I'm not anti-nepotism, you know

I think it's evil. I think, because I understand the other side of the point as well you're making

that, you know, you would want to give your loved ones... How could you not

I mean, genuinely, I don't know if I'd get that call, but who is the parent who would literally say

I could give my child advantage reasonable advantage give them a chance to prove themselves that other children don have It that original chance to prove themselves How could you not do that as a dad Are you a parent

yourself? No, very, very soon, literally in days time. Are you joking? No. Well, trust me

you're about to change your view on this. Because I don't know how you could do it. It would be

borderline pathology, wouldn't it? To actually say, I have it within my power to make my child

happy and okay it will involve making someone else's child unhappy possibly to use your point

about subscription to uh to make a few hundred children of other people unhappy but i'm not

gonna i'm not gonna i'm gonna make my child happy i'm gonna do it of course i am it falls into a

wider point of just you know caring about just yourself and your own family and caring about

you know why the society why the yeah no you're right i do a little bit of both but i don't think

when push comes to shove, anybody's going to really be able to turn off their concern

or love for their own child, which will, of course, it will supersede

whatever you feel towards other people's, even if you have wonderful, altruistic, generous feelings

towards them. But anyway, much more important matters, James. Good luck. Do we know what the due date is

Thank you very much. Well, we're booked in for an induction on Wednesday. Oh, no days

Crikey, you're going to miss the budget. No. I wish you all the best, all the love in the world

as you approach this extraordinary moment in your life. And don't forget, of course, that..

Can I do this, Keith? Is this too shameful even by my... I mean, if you miss any of the radio that you love

you'll be able to listen back to it all ad-free. If you sign up to my new subscriptions..

No, I can't do that. It's 11.45. James O'Brien on LBC. 11.48 is the time

encouraging news from both Serbia and Brazil overnight the infernal ratio is back in play

particularly in Brazil but election watchers will be turning their attention next to Israel

where the word pivotal barely does justice to the significance of this ballot

it is tomorrow and Noga Tarnopolski is there and the last time I checked

Noga the polls were more or less neck and neck Well, you know, it's actually, I think, a misapprehension that we're seeing in much of the media that describe the two electoral blocks as neck and neck

But that is really an adoption of Prime Minister Netanyahu's view that the votes of 20 percent of Arab citizens in Israel and of the parties that in their majority represent them don't count

So he has shown, you know, like graphics showing his right-wing bloc

and then the opposition bloc without counting Arab majority parties. If we do count them, and we must, because they're equal citizens

we're talking about more or less predictions. Most polls show about 70, 68 to 70 parliamentary seats

for those who oppose Netanyahu and around 50 for him. forgive me i i use that word neck and neck that phrase neck and neck from i actually got it

i got it from the bbc's coverage but tell me what why would netanyahu do that why would he publish

polling that excludes arab majority party sorry one of netanyahu's principal efforts during this

electoral campaign has been to delegitimize arab voters and delegitimize the parties that

represent them in their majority? Absolutely not in their totality. But these are parties that have the support of the majority of the Arab voters in Israel

Netanyahu is trying to argue that only Jewish vote counts, or the way he's put it is a Zionist bloc

And in this way, he diminishes the impact not only of these voters

but also of liberal, more left-wing Jewish voters, some of whom support that party very publicly

those parties. And he, this kind of racist tinge argument has even expanded to the principal

rival of Netanyahu, Gadi Eisenkot. Let me just show you something. I should add, you're at

Ben-Gurion Airport at the moment, for people confused. I'm at Ben-Gurion Airport where a

flight full of Israeli pro-democracy tech people have just landed from Silicon Valley

apparently a plane load of among a hundred thousand Israelis who are flying

back to vote Wow so it's a very big senior it's never really before been

seen there are a lot of MPs behind me a lot of activists but to return to

Netanyahu his racist campaign has extended to basically the only slogan he stuck with which is vote right or get Palestine in his in Hebrew rhymes

Yamin of Palestine and this is a slur against his principal rival Gadi

Eisenkot, former chief of staff of the army who has Moroccan origins. He's the son of

Moroccan immigrants and Netanyahu was attempted to use that really with just

overtly racist tones to smear him as an Arab, almost a Palestinian. So it's been a

a very ugly campaign. If I were to describe it as a

referendum as opposed to an election, would that be fair? Is it a referendum

on policies? Is it a referendum on a two-state solution? I don't think so

at all. I think it's a referendum on Netanyahu who has been in power

for 20 years, continuously 19, who oversaw the worst security failure this country has ever experienced

while continuing to refer to himself as Mr. Security. who has quashed any investigations into what happened that allowed October 7th to happen

And I think, for good or for bad, I think that he has turned himself into the main issue of this campaign

Which I suppose leaves us wondering how he still enjoys so much support

given not least the security failures of October 7th, well-documented now security failures

well documented but never properly investigated right um and denied right let's let's wait and

see james i think we have to see what happens tomorrow in the latest polls netanyahu's likud

party has even fallen down to 19 projected knesset siege out of 120 that does not indicate

mass support for him i think we have to wait and see what happens there could be surprises in either

direction tomorrow. Well, we may speak tomorrow, although it might depend on

whether or not you've managed to get any sleep or not. Just to be clear, you're there to

cover the arrivals of... I mean, you're not going off on holiday or anything

like that, Noga. I'm not. I wish. Noga Tarnopolski live from Bangorian Airport there

in preparation for tomorrow's pivotal vote in Israeli elections, where, you know, as she says

anything can happen, but where Benjamin Netanyahu who is in many ways fighting for his political life, fighting

of course, with a campaign that Noga described with some justification as being pretty racist

Whatever next? 1154 is the time. Back to nepotism. And nepotism and politics, of course, go hand in hand

Donald Trump's daughter appointed to a White House role. Donald Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner

actually somehow an ambassador for peace, conducting peace negotiations with Iran or regarding Iran and indeed Ukraine

Incredible. And Gaza, an investment firm that he heads up, received $2 billion from Saudi Arabia

I like nepotism is Donald Trump's, what would it be, catchphrase perhaps

So I think we can be fairly clear on when it is bad But when it's good, a little bit harder to pin down

I'm not sure I've done a great job of it. Certainly not for Laurie, who writes, you actually make me so angry with your smugness

That's fair enough. Talking about nepotism. Yeah, that's true. What about all these talented kids who haven't got connections

They are working in Tesco. You are vile. That's a bit strong, Laurie

I mean, my point is that that is terrible. That is literally terrible

But if you had the connections and your child asked you to help them, you'd help your child

I just think we all would, given the most fundamental impulse of parenting

You wouldn't want to be the parent that pushes them onto a stage where they humiliate themselves because they're supremely ill-equipped for that role

But you certainly would give them a chance to find out whether or not they could do it

I think, well, maybe you wouldn't. I don't know. But I think I would, with a situation ever to arise

Mark's in Cobham. Mark, what made you pick up the phone? well i had a situation many many years ago um my father worked for shell company man he came over

from ireland with a sort of nothing yeah and sort of worked worked his way up the ladder and got to

one of the senior boys at shell then he produced a very badly dyslexic son me and um when he came

to i went to a special dyslexic school and this sat the other very very fine education i was very

fortunate yes um but when it came to setting my business up i'm a jeweler silversmith and i said

dad can i borrow 15 grand he said no and um so i then got into bed with someone else a partner

yeah and that cost me 600 000 pounds in this near to buy him out seven um 12 years later

and i said to dad why can't you help me and i suppose his so the business went great guns and

then to buy out your partner your backer you you had to pay the market not back up not back up if

in case he's hearing he certainly wasn't a backer okay we served our apprenticeship together yeah

he comes from a very wealthy family we then said why don't we all join together so i sold my car

sold my flat put the same money as he did and we built the business up but sadly he had that

curse of being a trust funder we call them um trust a fairies so he had a huge amount of money

coming when he was about 40 so he didn't really want to put the same energy as i did so you bought

him out bought him out okay and then so if your dad had given you 15 grand you could have done it

all on your own yeah i think i could because they did i was the one who works i was the one who made

all the decisions we had a situation that the landlord walked in and said they want to sell

the freehold he looked at me and said i can't possibly do that what's the point of risking money i've got money coming to me so i bought the freehold and then built it up and anyway so it's a

long old business yeah i'm just just to take it back to your dad what do you how do you feel about

that now well i just look because it's in the jewelry trade you have an awful lot jewish people

lineage. They have a very, very good business sense. And they will look

and they, young Joseph or whatever, will want to come and open his business

so they'll get the uncles together, they'll get the whole family together to help

You won't go to these people up in the city. Well, it's not just Jewish

people who will do that. No, no, no. I'm going to explain. No, no, no. The Anglo-Saxon way is

it seems to me that you're lazy. How do you feel towards your dad

I'm going to have to wait for the autobiography. He did everything. Sorry, I get very emotional

Of course you do. He did everything for me. Sorry, can you hold for one sec

Okay. People say I've got a heart. Anyway, he was very, very..

My brothers were very academic. How do you feel? We're covering all the bases here, aren't we

Emotionally, intellectually, historically, autobiographically. Do you think your dad did the right thing or the wrong thing

when he told you to whistle for 15 grand? I think he brought me up to..

I'm going to lose the line now. Answer the question. I'm trying to. I'm trying to

Well, you're not trying hard enough. OK, yeah. In the answer, no, he didn't

He should have. If my little boy now... Yes, exactly. ...won all the competitions I'd won

tried to prove himself for a different... And you had 15 grand to spare

I mean, that's a crucial consideration as well. Then I'd do it in a heartbeat. Of course you would

Well, he... I won't deny it. Let me tell you a quick. No, you can't tell me a quick anecdote

The news is next. I mean, literally, the news is next. I'm more interested in the news

You might be, yeah. No, fair enough. Pot kettle. No, in a couple of stories short

yes, I wish he had helped me, but yes, he probably may be the man I am now. Well, it's a little bit of both, isn't it

And that's a fascinating story. It really is, and quite long. But I don't know, you see

because you probably worked harder. You worked harder. Your business would be different

I'd love to hear his rationale for it. what he thought he was doing

Maybe we should have crashed the news to ask that question instead. But I've got to be honest with you, Mark

I wasn't confident that you would answer the question that I asked you next

as opposed to going off on a charming and even emotional tangent

It's coming up to 12 noon, nepotism. For good or for ill

I think we'll come back to that, because it feels a bit unsatisfactory to me

I didn't get what I wanted out of that phoneme, which is one of the things I love about this job

is that you never know when lightning's going to strike. I don't know that it did

James O'Brien on LBC. It's three minutes after 12 amazing scenes from Brazil

where the infernal ratio has kicked in. Lula, the left-wing candidate, defeating the Sun

That should have been during our nepotism conversation. What an extraordinary coincidence that the Sun

of the former Brazilian leader has ended up leading his party, albeit to an unexpected defeat in the general election

I might speak to someone in Belgrade a little later this hour because the story from Serbia really, it was a bit of a marmalade dropper for me, as they say, because I read the first line of it and I thought that can't be right

A student protest movement has won an election in Serbia. And it turns out that is pretty much what has happened

But I imagine there's a little bit more to it than that. We will find out imminently

That nepotism conversation, it seems to have something to do with how desirable the job is

nepotism is bad when a job is going or a break is going to somebody that a million people would

have wanted nepotism is not bad when you're getting taken on by your dad's one man band

building firm or window cleaning operation because there isn't a you know a whole army of

young people dreaming of that opportunity i don't know i hope that doesn't sound snobby

I don think it does but I managed to upset a lorry driver earlier when talking about freedom and movement of people so who knows who knows i want to turn your attention next to what might

constitute my all-time favorite subject it might i mean i love class-based stuff and and and

transformation and aspiration but but there's sorts of a healing power of culture there's a

beautiful description given by Nicholas Heitner, the theatre director. I think he's done films as

well, but he was the director when Alan Bennett's famous play. Of course he's done films as well. He

did the film of this play. The History Boys opened at the National Theatre, where I think he was the

artistic director, in 2006. I don't know whether you are familiar with this play. You certainly

don't have to be. It's coming back next year for a 16-week run at the Theatre Royal on Haymarket

which is probably my favourite theatre in London. And it is about the, no spoilers

but it is about eight boys at a Sheffield grammar school. It's set in the 1980s

And their preparations for university entrance exams. I mean, it studies a heck of a lot

It includes a heck of a lot more than that. And I don't want to give away any spoilers

but it's as if there were two teachers who have different approaches to their education

So think of the difference between an exam factory. And correct me on this, by the way, if you want

It's kind of the point of this phone-in. On the one hand, you have an exam factory

So one teacher is preparing you to smash the exams, to do really, really well in the exams

And the other teacher, in a way, is preparing you for life, the humanities teacher

And Nicholas Heitner has given an interview in which he says, there has been a decline of humanities subjects in state schools

an almost terminal decline of music and drama teaching. History and modern languages have been downgraded

but it has obviously been a mistake, both for the individual pupil and our economic future

to neglect the humanities. to neglect the humanities um and i just know that this is true in my water i know that this is true

that the less time that we spend enjoying communing with music and drama the less time that we spend

studying history and modern languages the poorer we become as a population the poorer we become

But this is also a conversation about privilege, because in the way that the last hour, talking about nepotism, was about privilege

This is about privilege as well. It's a grammar school where this play is set

Alan Bennett, very much a beneficiary of an education system that taught young people from relatively humble backgrounds that they could have everything

that they didn't need to limit their ambition, that they didn't need to know their place

Anna Bennett wrote it. And the kind of schools that Nepo babies go to

will teach a lot of music and drama. The private schools have their own theatres

My school, my public school, had its own orchestra. Have I ever told you this

It had its own orchestra. And there was a lad. So I went to the Royal Festival Hall last week

to watch a beautiful concert. I can't remember the name of the pianist, but he was incredible

A bit of Shostakovich, a little bit of... What was the other one

Who's the other? Tchaikovsky. A little bit of Tchaikovsky, a little bit of Shostakovich

It was awesome. I haven't seen that many. I haven't had the pleasure of going to that many symphony

full symphony orchestras. They even had the bells right at the end

One bloke was there, I think. I didn't really see whether or not he did anything else

for the duration of the... Be it, Tchaikovsky or the Shostakovich. one or the other definitely russian and right at the end of it they smack these bells he's got about

four bells and it's a real bonga it's like and i couldn't tell whether he'd done anything else

whether he'd maybe had a little bit on the glockenspiel or there was one bloke on the symbols

these guys fascinate me there must have been comedy sketches about the people at the back

of the orchestra waiting and waiting and waiting for that one moment where they just have those

it's like a kind of mr bean sketch isn't it i think it might actually be a mr bean sketch

but they're brilliant they have to be absolutely inch pervert like human metronomes so the guy

with the symbols had quite a lot to do during the tchaikovsky or the shostakovich one or the other

but the bloke with the bells i think he was there for the best part of three hours for about three

minutes of bonging i'm pretty sure he didn't do anything else for the best part of three hours

and then bong bong bong bong bong bong um magical stuff and i've never really seen a full-size

symphony orchestra very on a regular base had four harps and it just just something happens to you

right when you're there and my wife who was at a state primary school when she was little would be

taken there every saturday for free concerts at the royal festival hall that would be put on by

members of the london symphony orchestra and it was a life-affirming experience you know it has

stayed with her it was the first thing that popped into her mind when we turned up at this thing on

thursday so so my public school had a had an orchestra and the lead violinist the first

violinist would come onto the stage in in tails he would come onto the stage this is like a 17

year old lad would come onto the stage for the school symphony orchestra wearing full tails

and it imbued them with something extraordinary the people on the stage but those of us watching

it we kind of took it for granted that exposure to culture may have been the two ronnie's that

did that sketch. That exposure to drama and music that Nicholas Heitner is

bemoaning the decline of. And then, on a more academic level, the history and modern languages

being downgraded. So, you know that I love this conversation. I really love

this conversation. And I know that state schools have orchestras as well. I'm not suggesting

for a minute that they don't, but most don't. Most don't. Ten minutes after twelve

I want you to put into words what it does for you

When you're not getting it at home, that relationship with music and drama

that needs to come from somewhere, very few of us would be able to discover it for ourselves

How would you discover it for yourself? You might watch something extraordinary by accident on the television

and it might ignite a lifelong passion for Harold Pinter. But it's going to be a heck of a lot easier if you've got a teacher who does it for you

You might, you know, classic FM might cross your car radio and you suddenly find yourself transported by some Shostakovich or some Tchaikovsky

But it's going to be a heck of a lot easier if it happens in school. It a heck of a lot more likely to happen if it happens in school and if you are and this is a state school conversation but of course anybody can answer the question of what it does for us But I want you to tell me about the impact why Nicholas

Heitner is right to mourn the decline in teaching of these subjects. What are we going to lose

0345 6060973 What are we going to lose when we teach music and drama less

What are we losing as we teach music and drama less? What are we losing

Put it into words. I know you can. 0345 6060973 Persuade a cynic

Persuade a skeptic. What are we actually going to lose? And one of the best ways to answer this, I think, is by putting into words what you think you gained

So it's a state school education that delivers on the things that private schools really, really value

And you have to wonder why the people who pay fees to send their children to schools really respond and want the music and the drama

These schools have their own theatres. They have their own orchestras. It's normal. Some state schools do, many don't

What do they get? What do you get? Maybe you didn't even realize at the time

but you look back now and you think, my God, that was one of the most precious things I was given

Because this play is essentially about the difference between having a cultural awakening

being taught the value of ours, even if it's not going to boost your grade in a forthcoming exam

my God, it's valuable. it's the most precious gift you could be given in many ways

who gave it to you? 0345 6060 973 and what what did it do for you

who gave you the gift? and what did that gift do for you or to you

I really want you to get involved in this conversation especially if you're kind of

sitting there thinking I know exactly what he's talking about but I'm not ringing a radio station

not in a billion years this is really important we can do it we can't do much during our time

together but we can flipping well recognize it one of the most amazing calls i ever took

i don't know if you were listening was from an older lady i hope she wouldn't mind me describing

her as that who just loved the opera i can't even remember why she loved the opera but she was from

a background where it was extraordinary to have developed a love for the opera so we sent her to

the opera we got the English National Opera involved and they make it a lot more accessible

than some of the other opera houses ever do and she went along and she she spoke to us afterwards

and she just had you could hear it in her voice she'd been utterly transported but that is a gift

that is accessible to all of us that magical feeling is accessible to all of us unless you

are very lucky with your parents or very privileged with your education you're not going to know about

it you're not going to know about it unless in a state school system you hit the jackpot with um

with the kind of teachers that nicholas heitner the the director of the history boys is

warning us reminding us is is in decline it's in decline so i like these questions because they

feed off each other really it's almost like what is in what do you get what is he what are we losing

when we are not teaching children music and drama? What are we losing

0345 6060 973. And what did those gifts do for you? Put it into words

The person that you would be if you hadn't had these gifts

is somehow less than the person you are. Somehow less. I mean that kindly

But your life is fuller. Your inner life is richer. your cultural life is bigger than it otherwise would have been

Hit the numbers now, you will get through. It's 12.16. James O'Brien on LBC

18 minutes after 12 is the time. I mean, it's important I remember this

I've already had several complaints. It's a conservative candidate. So there is a man facing an investigation by the Tories

after he was filmed apparently asking an undercover reporter What do you want done

And apparently offering to broker the services of an alleged far-right paramilitary group

So his name is Jack Ross, and he was working last year in Kemi Bader-Knox office

He was working in the leader of the opposition's office last year

he's the CEO of Turning Point UK which I think is the UK version of the

organisation that the late Charlie Kirk set up in the United States of America

Tory spokesman said Ross's membership of the Conservative Party had been suspended pending an investigation

the investigation was conducted by Al Jazeera it's in a documentary that they have broadcast

that he is filmed making a range of comments about what a contract killer would be employed to do

Now, just for a moment, just for a moment, imagine if that had been Andy Burnham

or if it had been Keir Starmer when he was leader of the opposition

I'm not going mad, am I? If this is the first you'd heard of an aide to Kemi Baden-Ock

being under investigation for offering to put an investigative and undercover reporter in touch with a contract killer

I'm pretty sure that that story would have featured on the front page of the Daily Mail

and certainly on your favourite right-wing radio and television programmes. But there it is, absolutely nothing

And that affects us all, you know. Someone like me is thinking, why has no one else gone

Oh, of course, it's a Tory story. I just thought you'd want to hear about that

I've got a full statement. I think I've just done it, but I'll do it again

A Tory spokesman said, Mr. Ross's membership of the Conservative Party has been suspended with immediate effect pending an investigation

We cannot comment further while the investigation is ongoing. 20 minutes after 12 is the time

Back to... You heard me set it up. I don't need to go there again. Anne's in Mitchum

Anne, what made you pick up the phone? Hello. It's the first time I've rung you

I quite often listen to you because you kind of... of calmed me down a bit

Oh, thank goodness I thought you were going to spoil it then. No, no, no, no, no. Absolutely not

I rang up because it's been on my mind for quite a while that

I'm a retired teacher now but I went to a comprehensive school. Well, I could have gone to the

grammar school but I got sent by my parents to a comprehensive school

back in the late 60s, early 70s and we'd always been encouraged as

kids, my brother and I, even though my dad was a postman and both parents had left school

at 14 we were always told to never feel that going to the theatre or going to the opera or ballet was not for us We were taken we were sent we went to galleries and so on

And it was one of the reasons to send me off to a comprehensive school

So off I went and there was an amazing orchestra and I was in a choir and we went to the opera

And there was a lot of things. I mean, it was during the days of ILEA, so a lot of things were open and free, and we went

And I went on to university, and then I went on and became an English and drama teacher

and quite enjoyed it, and liked to challenge. And all the schools I taught him would have been described as challenging

But then the school I went to was... Shall I stop for a minute? No. Well, I mean, you don't have to

I mean, I'm just conscious of the time. What are we going to lose

You carry on. I'll show up. Well, I went to... I ended up as head of faculty at a school in Croydon

And we applied to specialist status in English and music. Right. And we got it

And the school was buzzing with things. We were doing stuff. And you could see that the kids were growing in confidence

so it was exactly the right thing and then it got a cat it changed to an academy and the academy

owners only did uh sport and business studies as their specialism so we left and it finished and i

think people missed out i think if you looked at academic qualifications we would have got there

We were heading for it. But they got there quicker the following year

It's basically the plot of the History Boys, isn't it? It's the tension between the two priorities

What did you give the children that they were not being given latterly subsequently

I think there was a certain amount of imagination of putting yourself in

being able to imagine being in somebody else's position. I think also it was a mixture of kids, particularly in the Croydon school, of kids mixing, doing music and going out to things

We went to Coventry, I took them to see the magic flute, things like that. And there were kids then who were talking, who'd not talked before, kids for whom, and a lot of them were there

Don't just pause there. I am pausing you there because you glossed over that

so they would start enthusing and they hadn't spoken really to each other

they were really withdrawn children and then they were so moved by what they witnessed

that they couldn't not talk about it well one of them on the way back said

you know I used in my middle school I used to play in my primary school

I was in Oliver and I used to play the trumpet and it was the first any of us

had ever heard of it how a magical moment we had him playing

the trumpet because we were committed to doing concerts and things and we got ahead and did that

And it was just... It wasn't without its problems, obviously, but it was such..

It was an enjoyable... I would have retired there and I know that Head would have

but we both left when it... Well, he didn't have any choice. You'd have stayed

Do you know when you came on and said that I calmed you down, that was actually a lovely thing for you to say

because what this music does is it's a gift for life, isn't it

It's the thing that when everything's getting on top of you, you can put some music on and we can have big heated debates about whether or not classical music occupies a different space from popular music or jazz music or hip hop or whatever it may be

But for me, it takes me somewhere slightly different and it will always be there

But if you never know about that place, you never get to hide there or you never get to go there when everything's getting on top of you

Well, you just maintain your preconceived ideas that it's not for you or it's too posh or it doesn't have any connection with the music you might be listening to

But of course it does, as does poetry. And sometimes it takes a while. It takes a while to land. It takes a while for the cogs to mesh

But when they do, my God, it's an incredible thing, an incredible moment. And what a wonderful call. I'm cracking on only to get as many voices on as possible

I could listen to you all day, and you nail this topic so personally and so perfectly

The exam results are the only thing that a school cares about

There is no room for all of the stuff that we're talking about

What are we talking about? Continue to put it into words like Anne did. Roger is in Wembley

Roger, what have you got? I was in Liverpool at a grand school, and then my father died

and I was sent down to a boarding school in London. and music was never really

featured up in Liverpool. When I came to the new school, they had a whole music department

with soundproof rooms and not being academically inclined, I'd always loved music

Had a music teacher, a wonderful old guy called Harold Utley who used to play in the Palladium Orchestra

at weekends, he'd moonlight at the orchestra and he was teaching during the week

He was a brass player and he said, I said, I want to play

I think I want to be a trumpet. I played a bugle when I was a kid. And he said, I'm about to play trumpet

He said, right, sit down. He picked up a trombone and he played a piece of music that just made me laugh

I'm full of laughing. And then he stopped. And then he played this other piece

And it was melancholy, incredibly moving. And I'm almost in tears. And he stopped and said, right, that's the power of a musician

You can move people. You can change things just through your music

And so I went into the military band, the 60-strong military band

They had an orchestra. I played in that as well. And when I left school, I decided I'm not going to be able to do it

I got rejected by the National Youth Orchestra. I wasn't good enough, so I thought I'd play guitar

And so I started playing guitar. We played in church halls and scout huts and realized there wasn't going to be Eric Clapton

But I still love music. So some friends said, we're going to London

with my band, do you want to be our roadie? I went, that's great, let's do that, that'd be fun

Long story short, came down to London, I knew I wanted to travel and I knew I loved music

I ended up being a sound engineer and spent the last 50 years working with everything

from sort of rock music to full symphony orchestras all around the world

And I just, I got exposed to so much and I've always loved music

I'm not a music critic, I'm a music lover. But that teacher, if that teacher hadn't come into your life at that point, you'd be someone different. You wouldn't be you

I could have been digging ditches. I wasn't an academic. So it was just, you know, I hadn't even thought about the material impact

I'd only really thought about the emotional and intellectual impact of it. But of course, it's another door that you don't know exists until someone shows it to you

And yet for other people brought up differently from different backgrounds, the door is already open

And they can just wander through it at leisure without knowing that for some people it will never they'll never see it, let alone have the key to open it or unlock it

And he unlocked it for you. What an amazing story. It was the precious experience. And I'll just say it led me to a life of doing something I love for an occupation

People paid me to do it. Yeah. It doesn't get any better than that. Tell me about it

That's something we've got in common. Although my musical enthusiasms are limited entirely to listening

I don't really have a musical bone in my body. And I know sometimes when you say that, someone goes, oh, I could teach you this or I could teach you how to sing

Maybe you could. But no one's managed yet. This is so important and so sad because, you know, you might look at league tables or you might even look at our performance now on exams and we're doing great

And it is a cause for national celebration. But are we losing something at the same time

Nicholas Heitner would say yes. Anecdotally, so would I. What are we losing is the question

We will be catching up with those two elections, the Serbian and the Brazilian, between now and one o'clock

and do feel free to let me know if there's anything else I've forgotten to do

We're going to make the show a little bit more interactive. And as the new subscription service that we've launched today kicks in

then that's going to become super interactive. For example, I haven't told anyone this

but I reckon I can bring back Beat the Suite. If I get about 12 people on Zoom

what's the most people you can have on Zoom? Do we know? What's the top number of people you can have on Zoom

And then Beat the Suite, going back and then we can go back over some of the

big... Anyway, it's all there. It's all going on. But if there's anything I've forgotten to do today

let me know during this news bulletin and I will rectify the situation before one o'clock

I think I've delivered on all the promises that I made. Here's Amelia Cox

with your headlines. It's 12.33. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC

where we continue to examine Nicholas Heitner's comments regarding the decline in teaching of humanities in schools

Very powerful stuff, that, very moving. But, of course, the world of politics

although a little less charming, can sometimes throw up positive stories. And I confess I did a double take

when I saw this one last night. I saw that the Serbian government

had essentially been defeated in an election by what was described in the coverage I saw

as a student uprising, or what had begun as a student uprising

which is something of a marmalade dropper. Brent Sadler is CNN's former senior international correspondent

He's now chief news executive at the Adria News Network, and he lives in Belgrade, and he joins me now

Brent, good to see you. What happened? Extraordinary scenes. It went on until the early hours of this morning, James

with thousands upon thousands of people and cars celebrating way into the early hours

I haven't seen anything quite like the atmosphere of last night in downtown Belgrade since 1989

when I was there for the Velvet Revolution, which saw the end of the former communist regime

in former Czechoslovakia. Such was the memories I had flooding through me last night

So a historic turning point, a real turnaround of over a decade of rule

by what many call an authoritarian leadership and former President Alexander Butchich

So, yes, astonishing scenes. And, well, completely unexpected? Tell me more about the victorious party

Well, for two years, there's been a student-led protest here, once upon a time causing roadblocks, disrupting traffic

evolved into cycling across Europe to take their message of democracy to Brussels

to cycling through villages, cycling through the whole of Serbia, reaching areas that would normally be the former president's stronghold

And they've kept at it relentlessly and created such an opposition that the normal tools used in the past just were ineffective

against this student-led uprising, if you like, that had no political colour in terms of traditional opposition

So not only did the students' list win, they obliterated what has been the traditional mainstream opposition for so long

And media has been a very important part of that. I lead the only independent media network with digital print and television in the region

And our reporters were in the thick of it last night. Was there polling

Were there indications that this was going to happen? or has it completely pulled the rug from under the status quo

It was very much to do with the turnout, James. Which is in the high 90s

It was 70%, possibly higher. The swing was plus 12%. It was looking a cliffhanger until it wasn't

And that's when it changed. They got the vote out on a scale that has never been seen before

Listen, I'm obviously coming at this pretty cold, Brent. The government is not going to consist of students

They're not all going to sort of take time off from their studies to go and be foreign secretary or run the Department of Defence

or anything like that. Or are they? No, they're not. Those students, 250 candidates, were chosen by student plenums

They kept it behind closed doors. It was a very, if you like, well-hidden, well-camouflaged movement

because they didn't want to present any of them as targets to any previous attempts to disrupt opposition against the standing government

So they cleverly manoeuvred themselves around that, appointed 250 candidates, which is the number of seats in Parliament

and now those people we don't know will take Prime Minister, Foreign Secretary, and all the positions of Cabinet

and we haven't got a clue who they are. So we also have a leadership vacuum right now

This part of the world was used to Tito once upon a time. After the Second World War, Tito's partisans, remember

And then it been used to Milosevic and those dark years when Serbia and Yugoslavia as a whole was breaking up into the former six republics into independent states

So it's a very unsettled part of the world. And this democratic turnaround is indeed a historic moment

I can't think of any precedent for it, actually. I mean, you know, we have had revolutions and we've had student-led protests, but this is democracy

This is actually happening via an election, not via an overthrow or an overflow of feeling

It began, I think, with that terrible episode at the train station when the veranda collapsed

I think 16 people died. And the conclusion reached was that this was a consequence of corruption and cronyism and sort of bad politics

Yes, that was at the end of 24. That's when this student-led movement materialized and went viral, if you like, in many parts of the country

So, yeah, they kept up the pressure and they maneuvered around the status quo, which has always prevented a unified opposition being able to agree on a united list and move forward

So they basically smashed all the previous obstacles, created a new political business model, if you like, and that caught the attention of the people of Serbia

And indeed, it resonated through Europe as well. So you're getting a lot of statements, positive statements coming from Brussels and other democratic leaders across Europe and beyond

But at the end of the day, we still don't know who's going to be leading Serbia. And we don't know the names of those people

But that will happen in due course. We also have a presidential election coming before the end of the year

So that position is also up for grabs. It must be stated, however, that those who lost the election quickly conceded

The previous president conceded very quickly. He was aiming to be prime minister

He lost the numbers. He came out quickly because there was extreme concern

that this would turn violent very quickly. And that did not happen, thankfully

Echoes of Hungary, I suppose, on that front. and I know that the relatively new Hungarian leader

was among the first to congratulate the victorious party. Final question, Brett Sadler

I suspect we'll talk again if you're available because this is the beginning of something, isn't it

As well as the end of something and we're not quite sure what it might be the beginning of

but there would be few celebrations in the Kremlin about this result

Well, yes, this country has a long relationship, as you know, orthodox religion with the Russians

There's been a hot and cold arrangement with Serbia supplying through third parties weaponry to Ukraine, which didn't go down well in the Kremlin

The Kremlin provides energy for this country, primarily sanctions, no Serbian sanctions against Russia in defiance of EU expectations

So many, many issues here, not to mention China, a major infrastructural investor in all things Serbian

so you have this huge geopolitical puzzle that the new incoming cabinet and government will have to tackle

and this is pretty much in the heart of Europe. We're only four hours from Vienna

Everything's pretty close here, James. So this is just the beginning of the next phase

Yeah, I don't think anyone needs any lessons from me on the significance of the Balkans to wider international affairs

over the course of the last, what, 1,500 years or so? Just give or take a couple of centuries

Brent Sadler, a pleasure to talk to you. And as I say, I suspect we'll be catching up again

as the flesh begins to appear upon the bones of this extraordinary victory

And I mean, literally said to my wife last night, I think a student uprising movement, a student rebellion movement

has just won an election in Serbia. I just couldn't quite believe my eyes and ears

And now, of course, thanks to Brent Sadler, you can. Chief News Executive at the Adria News Network there in Belgrade

where he's based. 1242, lots of questions about the Bob. We've paused the Bob

because it turned out we were doing the wrong sort of average. And no, no, you're shaking your head at me already

We were doing the wrong sort of average. This is the James O'Brien program

and I think we should have done it differently. There's no point arguing with me

You did it wrong. So it's under review. It might be something that we introduced

to subscribers only on the new subscription service, James O'Brien Plus, which you can find more out about

at the um at global player it didn't work because it kept coming in as 10 so it was a suboptimal

system that we were doing it can't be 10 every week can it that's not an interesting exercise in

sophology anyway enough let's get back to culture miranda's in uh binfield in berkshire miranda what

made you pick up the phone hi james good to talk to you um so my my parents were both really

talented amateur musicians and I was lucky I was in church choirs from when I was six or seven years

old but when I went to state school in the sort of late 90s early noughties I had a couple of

exceptional teachers who gave us opportunities you know we could never have imagined I joined a choir

we toured France we toured in Germany I was able to perform in musicals and it just exposed me to

opportunities that I could never have had even with really talented musical parents but I know

that they similarly were influenced by really exceptional people who had educated them and i

think one of the risks is that if this continues that there will be parents who have not been taught

in this way and therefore cannot instill that in their children in the future and and therefore

there's not just the the educational aspect but that kind of generational instilling of of of

those interests at home as well no you're absolutely right and that's not a

criticism of parents you know some are able just to hand over huge sums of money to ensure that

their children get the sort of cultural enlightenment that you describe and i say that in jest but it also true put it into words for me what you get what you who would you be if you hadn had that in your life well how would you be different how would your life be different What would be missing Yeah so I been in a local chamber choir for over 20 years now

and I'm a probation officer by profession, so it gives me such an incredible antidote to that

But I think, to sum it up, it's things like emotional intelligence

I think, particularly classical music, helps you to access emotions that I think are very difficult to access in other ways

confidence in performing, musical kinship, relationships with other people. There's no similar relationship to performing

with other people in a group. And just a lifelong relationship with something that you love

whatever genre of music that is. And I think that is something that you have that in the early stages

It is invaluable. I mean, it is literally one of those things that you would struggle

In fact, I don't think you could put a price wrong. a price on it. 12.45 is the time. Thank you. I love that

From Belgrade to Brazil next, we'll catch up with the election result

there, which is also a kind of shot in the arm for people

who are opposed to extremism and or dictatorship or authoritarianism or, well, find out after this

James O'Brien on LBC. It's 12.48 from Belgrade to Brazil where another election result has come in

And while it doesn't necessarily constitute a surprise on quite the scale as the Serbian one, it certainly didn't go as was expected up until almost the last minute

That at least is my reading of the situation. Dr. Christopher Sabatini is the director of the Latin America program at Chatham House and joins me now because the Lula who has prevailed, he lost the first round effectively

He did. It was a close margin. but you know in brazilians modern democratic history never before has a candidate who lost

the first round gone on to win the second round so this was a historical but it also reflected a

real change in his tactics which are very important he used social media a lot more

he worked with influencers he actually brought in one of the more junior members of his party the

workers party and he used a whatsapp channel that was termed the lula's army and basically was able

to mobilize voters. And it's impressive because what he had to do was get more voters to vote in

the second round than voted in the first round. And supposedly up to 10 million voters turned out

more turned out for the second round. Oh, well, that is a parallel with the situation in Serbia

actually. Turnout being the uniting factor in both of these things. So an old dog can learn

new tricks, or at least he can employ people that will deploy the new tricks, even if he's not

necessarily spending his life on WhatsApp himself, which seems unlikely. And then the defeated

candidate. I need to remind my listeners, Christopher, that the father of the defeated

candidate, Bolsonaro, is still technically under house arrest, isn't he? He's serving a jail

sentence for plotting a coup after losing the last election. So exactly right. I mean, he was

gone. He was an outsider candidate in 2018, a loss to Lula in 2022. And then in 2023

from Florida, actually, mobilized his supporters and retired and active duty military officers

to storm the Supreme Court building and also the congressional building, very Trump-like

And in fact, Jair Bolsonaro, the father, refers to himself as the Trump of the tropics

But he's in the House of Rastford serving a 27-year term. The son, Flavio, had promised that he would pardon his father

as well as all of those who contributed to the insurrection in 2023

But yes, this is a family affair. Also, what hasn't been noticed is that in the first round of elections, there were congressional elections

And now there are four Bolsonaro's in the Congress, sons and his wife

So it's a family affair now in politics. And it's also a very divided country

And presumably, from Lula's point of view, a very hostile Congress. He's going to face a tough time governing

I mean, I think it's already the Partido Liberal, which was the Bolsonaro party, won a plurality in both houses of Congress

It also won a plurality of the governorships and the state legislatures

And Lula has to confront a whole number of things, including meeting some of his campaign promises that he freshened up, if you will, in that time when he rediscovered the merits of being young

and you know brazil is facing a huge debt problem as well as a fiscal overhang and um finally is he

going to accept this result gracefully um you know that depends on a number of things first of all i

think it will depend on whether flabio bolsonaro wants to go down he's only 45 yeah so does he want

to destroy his potential political career over time by following his father's footsteps but it

also depends on the White House. Last I heard, the Trump administration had not yet recognized

Lula's victory. And of course, Donald Trump and Donald Trump's team, including his son

but also Steve Bannon, were very close to the Bolsonaro's. So what Flavio does may well depend

on what signals Donald Trump sends. Wow. So as with, so I'm only mentioning Serbia because we

spoke to someone 20 minutes ago about the result there, in case you were confused

It's an interesting day to be watching. It's a very interesting day. And as in both cases, as in the other case as well

this is the beginning of something, as well, of course, as the end of something

And we're not entirely sure where this road is going to lead. So we may well talk to you again, Dr. Christopher Sabatini

director of the Latin America programme at Chatham House. So celebrations among opponents of either Kremlin stooges

or corrupt authoritarians, but no real grounds yet for celebration of what will come next

just celebrations of what we know it won't be. I think that applies to both

Jonathan is in Cambridge to steer us back to the conversation about the arts and what it is we will lose as the humanities are taught less and less in state schools Jonathan what would you like to say James first caller Goodness me Welcome I just think that drama is extraordinarily valuable

I went to a school similar to yours, although we didn't have a theatre

and I went into stage management, and it was a single-sex school

and the girls only turned up once a year, and I had a great teacher

He was a music critic. He was a bit like Hector in the History Boys

And to sort of come almost full circle, I got the opportunity to work with Nick Heitner

from that very first experience of sort of painting sets in school

to becoming his deputy stage manager on Miss Saigon. And I left theatre back in sort of 2001

and went into education. And it terrifies me, the number of drama departments

that are closing around the country. And Nick is right. It gave me empathy

It's protected, along with your good self, it sort of protects me from the fears of the world

the trumps of this world, because I can retire into Lear or Richard III

or Death of a Salesman or whatever. and it we are losing it

and even the students I teach now and I work for an exam board

as well it's all about UCAS points it's all about getting to the next level

it's not about studying the work in itself and what these great authors and directors

can give us it's the unmeasurables isn't it it's the point I think it was Wilde who said something about

cynics know the cost of everything and the value of nothing and that seems very appropriate here

it it it's truly um it it saved me uh me too plays and music and working with orchestras

and understanding uh what it what fear performers go through and and even even somebody like nick

heitner would would feel insecure he was working on his first big musical for cameron's and and

it was something very different to his shakespeare work and his opera work and so you you see it's

work is the opportunity to talk the opportunity to listen and it it it has changed my life and i'd

just like to i'd just like to thank you for everything that you do because you keep me safe

Well, that's a lovely thing to say, and I'm very grateful to you. Obviously, I have no way of knowing whether you are, in fact, sane or not

It's perfectly possible that we're the mad ones and everybody else is completely compost mentis

But that's very, very sweet of you, Jonathan. Thank you. And there it is. I mean, it is all human life is here

Think of a house with windows and all the views out of all of the windows

And who has the richest experience, the person with one window or the person with 100 or the person with 10, the person with 50

These are windows that Jonathan describes that we all get to look through, thanks to other people's efforts

We get to look through that we can see the view that they've conjured up

Lynne is in Southsea with what will probably be the last word on this one

Lynne, what would you like to say? Oh, hello. I'm a former comprehensive school student, and then I became a drama teacher for many years

But now I am the chair of the Society of Teachers of Speech and Drama

Wow. And I have made a nice long list of what we and I personally believe are the benefits of drama

It packages all the other subjects into one in that it gives a child a full experience and lessons if it's taught properly

And here is my list. Go on, fill your boots. Empathy, connection, regulating emotions, developing physicality and movement, understanding points of view

disagreeing agreeably constructing arguments understanding and listening to others putting self in other person's shoes exploring other experiences developing knowledge of people in

the world self-expression articulation cooperation working together confidence all in a safe space

oh you've set the bar high for callers obviously for the rest of this week i expect everybody to

turn up with a carefully constructed list of responses to my question

but I mean, and in a way you've answered of course the question of what we would lose

if this is not happening and it falls to me to ask you, as the chair of the Society

of Drama Teachers are we watching a decline? Well, yes, because people

have got a loss losing empathy aren't they? Yes, of course they are, I mean we've just heard about the supporters

of Bolsonaro in Brazil and the same thing is happening here So it's happening less and less in schools

Fewer and fewer children are being taught that long list of things that you've just described, which nobody would welcome

Yes, indeed. It's sad. It's very sad. Final question. Did you grow up near Accrington

No, Preston. Oh, well, I mean, all things are relative, Lynn, aren't they

It's pretty near flipping Accrington, compared to most of the rest of the world. But, yeah, a little..

I grew up near Accrington, Bluricke, if I've asked any of those. Yeah, that'll do

just because there was a couple of things in your accent that reminded me of Julie Hesmanhoutz

although her accent's stronger than yours who I think did grow up in Accrington

12.59 even is the time, thank you Lynn, that was a lovely

conclusion to a lovely conversation if you missed any of it you can listen back

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Coming up at four on LBC, it's Tom Swarbrick, but now it's time for Sheila Fogarty. James O'Brien on LBC