'The dishonesty, deception and embellishment baked in with Farage' | James O’Brien - The Whole Show

It's four minutes after ten and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

Do you know, I thought for a moment that I'd got away with it. It has become, I don't know, a tradition in recent years to point out that whenever I go on holiday

particularly if I go away for a fortnight, then rather unexpected and often quite important events

particularly in the world of politics, tend to unfold. and then at the end

am I right? at the end of the first so I've been away for two weeks forgive me it's presumptuous to imagine

that you'd be aware of that there's absolutely no reason why you should be you may have just stumbled

across this radio station by accident in which case my goodness me

you lucky lucky person so at the end of the first week

I thought I think you know we might be okay I can't really see what's going to happen next week

that could be we've got I mean a new Prime Minister on the way

Andy Burnham's passage into Downing Street appears now to be untrammeled. Nothing major on the horizon

in terms of international affairs. The Craig David Tribute Act that Donald Trump's adventures in Iran

quickly became continues. Ceasefire on a Monday, resumption of hostilities on a Tuesday

threats of apocalypse on a Wednesday, warnings of another ceasefire on a Thursday

and then back to bombing each other on a Friday. We chilled on Sunday. And I couldn't quite see

what might actually unfold that would constitute or give you the opportunity to bombard me on my sunbed

my sun lounger, not literally, with the old observation that every time I go away

something massive happens. And then up popped Nigel Farage, the irremovable skid mark upon the Y fronts of British politics

for so many years, once again embarking upon a sort of narrative

of bogus victimhood, ludicrous embellishment or disingenuousness or dishonesty, depending on your perspective

and attention-seeking. In a way that even I, as someone who has chronicled his calumnies

and wrigglings and slitherings and deceptions fairly tirelessly, even I was slightly taken by surprise

by the desperation of last week's events, that ludicrous address in which he claimed

and remember we're now in a period of purdah, and the purdah comes in twos, there are two p's

for every purdah there's a paranoia. When we are in a period of purdah with regard to a by-election

I become very paranoid, because even after 20 something years of doing this job

I don't know what the rules are. So I don't take any risks whatsoever

apart from that one time when I actually fell foul of all the rules and regulations

in humiliating and spectacular fashion. So I don't want to talk about anything that's going on anywhere

specifically to constituencies, until I'm a little bit clearer on what I can and can't say

Because that's not what interests me. What interests me is the national picture

So I watched that statement on holiday and wrote a column immediately afterwards

I'd written a column that morning for the iNewspaper because that's how much I love you

I thought that the idea of two whole weeks without being able to enjoy a single nugget of insight

from me would be too much for you to bear. So I wrote a couple of columns from my..

You're welcome. I wrote a couple of columns from my son, Lounger. And last week, actually, for the first time in my entire life

my entire professional career, I filed a column several hours early. I hopped out of bed in the Peloponnese

took in the seascape, went for a morning constitutional down to the beach

helped myself to the capacious breakfast buffet, had a quick dip, strolled back to my suite of rooms

and wrote a column several hours ahead of deadline, which I have never done before in my life

Back when I was a full-time newspaper person, which is approximately one million years ago

I never filed on time I mean in fact there was one time

when I filed so late that it didn't even make the edition that I was filing for

I'm not boasting because it's unprofessional and pathetic but sadly it's the way I'm built

I've never been able to respond to deadlines until they are breathing down your neck

hands up if you know which genius of British comedy writing came up with the phrase I love deadlines

I love the whooshing sound they make as they fly past Top of the class, early doors, eight minutes after ten

if you can remember who actually said that. All right, I'll tell you. It was Douglas Adams

We love Douglas Adams. So I filed a column early, which is something I have never done before

And now, I've got to tell you, world exclusive, I'm never going to do it again. Because I got a lovely message back from the opinion desk

that said, this is brilliant, we love it. But Nigel Farage has just announced

that he's going to be making a statement at two o'clock, so you might have to rewrite the whole thing again. And the column that I'd written

was a warning that I have seen this all before. I have seen the claims about his security

which generally hinge upon widely reported or non-existent episodes, like the time he claimed that the wheel nuts on his Volvo

had been tampered with in some sort of assassination attempt, and they tracked down the mechanic who had apparently told him that

and the mechanic said, in French, that's absolute hogwash. I can't remember exactly what the French word for hogwash was

but it became clear that Farage had not been accurately relaying what he'd been told by the French mechanic

and now I remember when he claimed that his home had been firebombed and the police had no record of it

that was only a couple of weeks so I'd written an article about how I've seen this all before

so I'm not joining in the celebrations of his imminent political demise

I think we've all been a little bit touched by Trump I mean sort of intellectually

not in the way that the woman who accused him of rape was reportedly touched by Trump

because, of course, he sued her for libel and lost. Make of that what you will. That's the bravest man Nigel Farage has ever met, by the way

The man who sued a woman who accused him of rape for libel and lost. That's brave. Come on

At least we can all agree that's what bravery looks like. I couldn't quite join in

And here's the thing. I don't know whether it was because I was away

and therefore not fully what's that lovely word? Meshing. The cogs weren't fully meshing

So here's the cog that is Farage's political career, spinning wildly. And here's the cog that is me

keeping up to date with events, spinning wildly. But not meshing because

I was soaking up the Peloponnesian sun, you see. So I wrote this article

and obviously I had to write it again. I had to go back to it

Perils of filing early. and redo it based upon him calling this by-election in Clacton

about which we will say no more. And this was even before all the other major parties said

we're not getting involved in this publicity stunt. You can spend your summer arguing with a bin if you want to We got more important things to do So for the first time I think since this hideous excretion started bobbing around in

the toilet bowl of public life, for the first time, I found myself less persuaded of his

well, not less persuaded of his awfulness. What's the word that I'm looking for? I just

I don't know whether I've got a case of twice bitten thrice shy

Whether or not the accusations surrounding the money, the constantly changing story

the ludicrous attempt to pretend that he'd somehow made money. Did you see? Did you notice that

Was I? I can't have been the only one that noticed that. Well, this country, it just hates people that make money

You haven't made any money, mate. You've been handed it by a very rich bloke based in Thailand

and given it by people who pay you to promote the IRA

on Cameo. You're not exactly Alan Sugar, pal, are you? This isn't what you would call a glittering

commercial career. In fact, I think the last company you were linked with before you started

making money out of politics got a winding up order from His Majesty's or Her Majesty's Revenue

and Customs for unpaid taxes. Business genius, you ain't. I've also never met anybody who buys

into the idea that he would have made a lot of money if he'd stayed in the city. But these claims

perhaps they're lies, perhaps they're exaggerations. These are halfway around the world by now

They're never getting back in the bottle. But it was worth noting, wasn't it, that this idea that he's

oh, I'm being persecuted because I'm so successful at making money. You've literally been handed money by somebody

who, hours, days, weeks later, heard you announce policies that were going to make him

even richer than he was when he gave you five million quid in secret. This idea made money

Promoting gold bullion. We'd like to pay you to tell people that gold bullion is brilliant

Oh, I've put in a shift today, lads. I've put in a shift. It's like going down the coal mine

Seriously, recording little cameo messages for weirdos and pranksters and various racists

It's like going down a coal mine. You wouldn't want to do a shift like the shift I've done. 77 votes on the bounce he's missed in the House of Commons, but he's working so hard

So hard to make that money. To make the money that he just gets handed for no reason

Sorry, for a variety of different and conflicting reasons, by a bloke that's based in Thailand

So, it just... Am I communicating where I am on this? Am I communicating this sense I have that no matter how big the disgrace

no matter how egregious the behaviour, no matter how obvious the disingenuousness or dishonesty

I think I have reached a point where I don't think it matters

And the polling now at a national level suggests that I am wrong

The mood in the media suggests, that's another thing you've got to pick up on, isn't it

The idea that he is a victim of the media class. Have you seen the photograph of him at Evgeny Lebedev's summer party

wearing Union Jack shoes while sucking up to Rupert Murdoch? Have you seen... This is the man who is a terrible victim of media attacks

There's even a piece in the Daily Mail today by a clown called Stephen Glover

arguing that it's very important that he manages to climb out of this hole

The media have been... Good Lord, I nearly used an incredibly inappropriate..

This always happens when I come back from holiday. I'm not particularly potty-mouthed off there

but I do sometimes find my vocabulary straining at the leash when I've had a couple of weeks outside of the studio

Let me try and think of a more appropriate word to describe what the media have been doing to Nigel Farage

for the last ten years. Well, you've heard it. You've heard it in this studio

You've heard it on every broadcast. Would you like to come in, take a seat? Which toe would you like me to tickle first, Mr Farage

The big one, certainly. Here we go, tickly, tickly, tickly. Oh, stop it, stop it, stop it

And that's an interview, according to some broadcasters. according to some people

So the idea that he's been persecuted by the media is as comical as the idea

that he would have made a fortune if he'd stayed in the city or that he's done any work whatsoever

in return for the five million quid that he got bunged by Christopher Harbourn. So do you see what I mean

It's as if every rock you look under in Nigel Farage's life, personal and political and professional

it's as if every rock you look under reveals a thousand more rocks to look under

And that's why I think that's why I think I'm on a slightly different

tick, because the media has changed some people who've spent the last 10 years tickling his toes

have found, I don't know whether it is temporarily or permanently they've managed to find at least

one vertebra they have found just enough spine to actually say you can't really

claim that the British public don't care about a secret £5 million gift

from a bloke set to benefit enormously from policies you announced and then deleted from your website

when it turned out you'd taken 5 million quid secretly from a bloke set to benefit from those very policies

But I can't feel what they feel. I don't know why. I don't know whether it's because

I've been away and therefore I have missed the mood. Do you see what I mean

is the music has been playing just out of earshot. I've only been zoning in on sort of Monday evenings

to get a quick feel for the format and then write a quick column

I haven't been doing what I do normally when I put in a shift in order to make sure that you can make your decisions

and your opinions are going to be based on the information that you need. you've got this idea that

the scales have tipped that the gig is up that Farage is finished

on a national level that the things we've been saying now for over 10 years

you know it's 12 years since he was manhandled out of his studio

by his own PR guy because his shtick had fallen apart so spectacularly

and that changed nothing Dan Hodges, who is now a clairvoyant in chief over at the Daily Mail

wrote after that interview that Farage's career was finished. And so when I was reading last week all of these suggestions that the game was up

all of these suggestions that he'd run out of road, all of these suggestions that the mask had finally slipped

I just wasn't feeling it. I just wasn't feeling it. and I don't know, and forgive me

because this is a bit self-indulgent I don't know whether that's because

I was unplugged or whether it's because I've seen it all before

and I would have arrived at exactly the same conclusion even if I'd been on air

for three hours a day for the last two weeks which would have been a shame because I know how much

you all enjoyed Thursday's show with Honest Bob Jennerick, I don't know if I've ever been prouder

of my listeners than when my sun lounger started pinging with messages back from Blighty

saying your callers are absolutely rinsing him. I would expect that from you to be honest But you do occasionally when I go on holiday get some of the um how could we put this some of the more bigoted prejudiced and racist contributors to the LBC conversation who never have the nerve to ring me when I here they somehow come crawling out of the woodwork when I am when I am away

but I think honest Bob Jenrick, particularly his attempts to pretend that two-tier policing

was A, a thing, and B, of interest to honest, decent people

who pay attention to the news, came crashing down around his ludicrous ears

The one thing I am a bit cross about, I got into work this morning, and someone has painted over the picture of me in the foyer

I don't know who that was. It was a lovely picture of me in the foyer here at LBC Towers

It was in a sort of cartoon form in order to just make younger visitors to the studio

feel more welcome. I looked a little bit like SpongeBob SquarePants, I suppose, but you

could tell it was me because of the artist. Someone's painted over it. Well, apparently

it happened on Thursday, shortly after one o'clock. I have no idea who could

have been responsible for such an abomination, but I'm reassured by management that they're going to get it put up again

as quickly as possible. So, it's... It's just this thing, right? That I..

Everyone else seems to have reached for the party poppers or everyone else seems to think that the pendulum has swung. Everybody else seems to think

that the scales have tipped. And I don't know. I don't know. And I don't know whether it's because

I am being subjective, as in my own personal relationship with the news and with this

particular issue, with the awfulness of this particular individual who's, I don't know if

anyone has done a better job of chronicling, just awfulness after awfulness after awfulness

Even the claim he made about being hounded out of a pub, he kind of pretended it was some sort of new..

I remember when that happened. He was essentially mobbed by breastfeeding activists

in a pub in Kent because he'd made comments about why women shouldn't breastfeed in public

a few days earlier, and then to hear him describing it... So it was sort of 11 years after the event

as evidence of how unsafe he is in daily life. Because he can't go anywhere without being mobbed

by breastfeeding activists, poor fella. If you don't want to be mobbed by breastfeeding activists, don't say bigoted and disgusting things about breastfeeding

That's my advice. So, I don't know whether it's because of the subjectivity of it

The subjectivity of my position. I can't allow myself to think that the gig is up

Or whether actually something about this five million quid, something about this ever-changing story

something about this hideous combination of greed and arrogance that sees him claiming that he's perfectly entitled to it

and it's nobody else's business but his. Something about the insidiousness of the wriggling

something about the egregiousness of the behaviour, the arrogance of the argument, the disdain for ordinary people

the ludicrousness of the claim. Something about this moment is different from the time he lied about his wheel nuts being tampered with, the time he apparently lied about his house being firebombed, the time he ended up with a winding up order from HMRC over unpaid taxes despite being a business genius

The time he, I mean, I could go on, the time he was so frightened for his safety that he didn't put in an insurance claim on his car that was a write-off

despite the fact that he drove away in it and has subsequently claimed to be skint. Who here has ever been skint enough not to put an insurance claim in on a car that had been written off

I mean, just the dishonesty, the deception, the embellishment, all of this, to me, is so baked in to Farage

And I accept that I pay a little bit more attention than the average bear. but is this different

0345 6060973 Remember, you can say no. You can agree with me

I'm hoping you won't. You can agree with me. Is this different

I've been away. I was away all last week. My access to the news was limited

Through choice. I prefer to try and do a little bit of what the Dalai Lama calls mental hygiene

when I'm away. I deserve, I think, at least a couple of weeks not fully plugged in

to the merry-go-round of current affairs. Is this different from all the other scandals

all the other examples of egregious behavior, all the other deceptions, all the other exaggerations

all the other apparent lies, all the other disproved claims, all the other bogus victimhood

narratives. Is it different this time? Or will we be here in six months' time? Looking back upon

this period last week, moving forward and just going, yeah, he is. He is the unflushable poo

He is the irremovable skid mark on the wide fronts of British politics. And there is nothing we can

do to get rid of him i don't know 0345 6060 973 is the number you need hit the numbers now this is

when you realize how much you've missed me you see when when the catchphrases start kicking in again

hit the numbers now you will get through james o'brien on lbc six minutes after 10 and of course

you know how this show works. It's not just the what, it's the why

Part of the question I'm asking is why did I seem to be the only columnist

in the country last week who didn't think that Farage was in unprecedented danger

that Farage was on the precipice of political oblivion? Why am I the only one

who seems to think that he'll wriggle out of this just as he's wriggled out of every other

bucket of hot water that he's found himself in? I don't know whether it is due to my personal positions, whether it is due to the fact that I've been

out of the loop for a couple of weeks, or whether it is simply because I'm wrong, or

whether I'm right and everybody else is wrong, which is a position I'm normally very comfortable

adopting, okay? Ian is in Glasgow to kick things off. Ian, what do you reckon

I'm sorry, James, I'm going to have to pour cold water on your host

card red cups hydration break send him off already already james james i would love you to be right

no hang on i think i don't know that he is finished to be clear so i think you are actually

agreeing no he's definitely not finished right you know i mean you you should know that because

you've written about it i mean people think these days sadly much more with their hearts and their

heads and if you can stoke grievance and division there are a lot of people who go for that and i

thought when I woke up to the news that Trump had said, you know, that recording

grabbed him by. I thought that's the end of him. He is finished

And the reality is he's still there and he can do what he wants. And I

think that, unfortunately, it's not Farage that's the issue. It's the public. It's the people

It's the people. And it's just so depressing that people don't think

and you know it's just, you catalogued his long list Oh I didn touch the signs I barely touched the signs My wife and I were killing ourselves laughing over breakfast Well I very glad to have caused some amusement in the household But I mean it not funny is it

You can list all of these things that he's wriggled out of before and therefore conclude that he'll wriggle out of this one

For me, for the record, it was Serge Kowalewski. It was the New York Times journalist who has the congenital joint condition

that means he has limited mobility and muscle development. When Trump did his hideous impression of him

I thought, well, there's no way they can elect him president. and that was back during the first time

What if you're more misanthropic than I am, Ian? What if your lack of faith in your fellow citizen is misplaced

and at risk of sort of indulging in nationalism or xenophobia, what if we are actually generally better than Americans

and we will have a limit past which we won't be carried

however persuasive the populace may be? Well, you know what? I think, you know, it's not just Britain, it's Europe

I think we, I think, I feel, I wish you were right again, but I feel we're on a slippery slope to becoming like America

just as the same as parts of Europe are. And, you know, the rise of populism, the rise of divisiveness

the rise of, frankly, bigotry, racism and nastiness. I mean, why do we even have to say in the news, you know

when something happens, oh, this person was white? Well, we all know why

Because people go, if it's not, they'll go on the street and riot. It's such a..

That didn't happen 20, 30 years ago. Oh, it didn't happen 20 months ago

It's post-Southport that that's happened. I mean, of course, Southport's riots, the Farage riots

were caused in large part by people like him, treating the alleged rapist Andrew Tate as a trusted news source

and condemning the so-called media class. I mean, you're right, you paint a bleak picture

you haven't extinguished my hope actually, you haven't, because I've come back from holiday, I've looked

at the polling, and more surprisingly I've looked at how the toe

ticklers are behaving, and the toe ticklers in general, when they move

they stay moved, you know the people who have spent 10 years tickling his toes, and pretending that

he's none of the things that everybody honest knows him to be they've seen

the 5 million quid in a slightly different light from the racism, the alleged racism

from the apparent lies about attempts upon his safety, from the obvious egregiousness of promoting the IRA

or recording messages for far-right groups. All of those things don't bother them

because, between you and me, I think some of them probably quite like it. But the five million quid and the arrogant and ridiculous claim

that it's none of the public's business, that feels a little bit different to me

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, James, maybe. Maybe. I wish. I hope. I hope

Yeah, well, we shall see. I mean, as Rachel Reeves rather beautifully put it

he's chosen to spend his summer arguing with a bin, about which we can say very little

because we are now in a period of purdah with regard to that by-election. But on a national level, it's the national polling I'm interested in

it's the national disapproval levels. I mean, when we move, do we stay moved

Do you see what I mean? when people, I mean, because I presume it's a bit like a drug

liking Nigel Farage's bigotry. I presume that the kick that Ian alludes to

that sense of validation you get from seeing your own base prejudices

endorsed by somebody who is on the telly and sounds a bit posh, and you sort of think, oh, that's okay then, maybe I'm not a scumbag

because there's someone on the telly who sounds a bit posh saying exactly the same things that I think in my darkest moments

about people who don't look like me. That drug, that addictive, intoxicating drug of prejudice endorsement or bigotry endorsement

you get weaned off it by financial behavior, by financial... I don't know. I honestly don't know

I want you to tell me. 10.32 is the time. Has he run out of road or are we going to see another exercise in wriggling off hooks

0345 6060 973 is the number you need. It's 10.32. Simon English has your headlines

James O'Brien on LBC. 10.35 is the time you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC

Ian in Glasgow there echoed one of the thoughts I did have on my way back from holiday

Looking at this terrible story involving Anne Whittacombe, which we will bring you any developments regarding as and when they occur on the programme

and inevitably Nigel Farage is accused this morning of using her death to make political capital

but that is as inevitable, I'm afraid, as the sun coming up. Of course, I think we can all agree

thank goodness there were some cameras there when he turned up to lay a wreath

What a happy coincidence for him that was. Terrible story. And yet that constant reporting of the ethnicity

of the people that have been arrested. which just looks ridiculous in some ways i don't know why i found myself thinking about the football

and wondering why i know you can see the football and we don't know who the people who were arrested

are so it's not the strongest ogy that you're going to hear today but imagine if we started

doing it in all other areas of life as well if we started saying and the goal was scored by a

mixed race man from stourbridge which it which it usually is or by a white man of irish heritage

called Harry Kane. I mean, imagine if we started doing that, the rule of Farage was being applied to all the other areas of life

where the ethnicity of a person who's done something is of such enormous importance that it has to be reported

instead of just the shared humanity being the key point. And Ian was right. We do that solely because we live in a country

where if they reveal that somebody is brown or somebody is from an ethnic minority background

then the reaction is going to be completely different. so they reveal that somebody is white

in the hope of stopping what would you call it? More riots, I suppose

I've got a little tickle in my throat. You can probably tell it sometimes happens when I come back from holidays

There's nothing we can do about it but I would crave your indulgence

and ask you to bear with me. Or I could just take some calls

and let them do the talking. Nah, that's a good idea. Ned's in Bradfield. Ned, what do you reckon

Welcome back, Mr. O'Bee. Nice to have you. Thank you. Have you ever spent your time? I had a lovely time, yeah

although I'm very sad to have missed Robert Jenrick's show. I may have to listen to that on Catch Up on Global Player later

I had to switch it off, I'll be honest with you. He got up my nose. We had some great callers come in, but I just thought, oh, well

At least he didn't paint over your picture in the foyer, mate. I don't know what you're complaining about

Absolutely outrageous behaviour. Anyway, where were we? Where were we? So I would like to focus on, please

something that I think has slipped away or is slipping away that I really picked up on at the time

which was his actual address to the nation. and I've been really struggling to think of the adjective

to describe how moaning and whining and whinging and complaining the whole thing actually was

And I just thought, you want to be the prime minister? Look at the state of you, Matt

You know, I've never seen anyone stand up and whine so much like a big baby

about how dare you if it wasn't for this pesky politics business

I've given up my entire life for you, plebs. and here you are with the temerity

to ask me where I've earned some money from and I just thought..

He just marks it for purpose. And I really thought the mask slipped then

And Ian's made brilliant points, by the way. But you speak as somebody who hasn't been persuaded by the mask

So what is of interest to me back in town for the first time in a fortnight

is the way the needle has moved. I mean, the polling has been punched both on a personal and a party level

So it's people that were previously on board who are now stepping back

and of course we don't know whether it will be permanent or temporary. Why do we think that's happening

For the reasons that you say, because nobody likes a coward. Yeah, but also I think there's probably about 10 or 15% of his vote

that's been holding their nose because they're ex-Tory voters. Yes. And I think that they have started to stop

Now that the, I mean, the toe-ticklers you mentioned, I'm doing really stuff like, what, the mail are having a go at him

Yeah. You know, so maybe it's starting to filter through that actually this guy is not what he's doing

And this is where my page, because the mail had a go at him in 2014 when I did the interview with him

The mail predicted that it was all over for him. And they were wrong then

And that's why I suppose I'm thinking that they're probably wrong now. Because it's about what you get out of supporting him

And Trump manages. So Trump still maintains the myth of being an impressive human being

It's why he posts the memes of himself made out to look like Superman or some sort of military hero

People still drink the Kool-Aid that he serves up. Nigel Farage, looking ridiculous on the television in an empty room

because he's terrified of questions, can't really cast himself as a tough guy

in the way that Trump can in the Oval Office because he will surround himself with sycophants

That's point one to Ian, or point one against Ian, because that's a difference between the US and the UK

He can't surround himself. I mean, he can go on GBBs, but even..

But even... Well, even Camilla Tony's giving him a hard time. Do you know what I mean

Really? And Layla Cunningham, yeah. Whatever next? Yeah, honestly. Why are you watching that station, by the way

It's on social now. I don't watch it. Hartley Brewer as well is giving Layla Cunningham a really hard time

There's a thing about her defence policy. Never heard of her. Well, no. But the interesting thing, like I said to you before..

Why is that happening then? I mean, you can mention names if you want. Most people who've run out of road at LBC

end up working on one of these weird stations, but why would they now be turning on someone

that they have been treating with extraordinary sycophancy for the best part of 10 years

It's super curious. I don't really understand the thing, but I think the hardening of this

and so why he won't flush away, unfortunately, as I said to you once before, like Donald Trump, you know

he's given people permission to be the worst person of themselves and that's why they'll never desert him

So you'll get that rump of this sort of maggorish version of reform

that I think one of Tom's texts came in saying, we don't care

We don't care what the money is from. He doesn't care if it came from Putin. You know, he's our guy

So I think there's probably a good 10, 15% of the country where you know who we're talking about

that will never swerve. But I think the people now are going, hang on a minute

You know, it's starting to add up a bit here. And, you know, too much time spent in America

Yeah, in a way, what we're looking for is the difference between the British electorate

and the US electorate. Because he's obviously tried to be a Timu Trump. He's tried to be a sort of pound-shot version of Trump

And I think you're on to something here. I can feel a theory developing

Ooh, first day back, Keith. I think I've got a theory. I can feel a theory developing

And I think it might be quite a good one. But I'm going to give it a few moments to gestate

before I share it. For two reasons. Number one, I might turn it into a column tomorrow

And number two, I want to just make sure that it's not absolutely riddled with holes

Thank you, Ned. Theory incoming. Mo is in Birmingham. Mo, what would you like to say

Hello, James. Good to hear you back. Thank you. Likewise, mate. I've missed you

What's on your mind? I think two reasons. I think the toe-ticklers

I think they're turning slightly against him, and this is a bit of a controversial thought

because Kemi Badenok and the Tories haven't collapsed. They are sticking stubbornly to a position where

But, you know what, you can't rule her out making some sort of bid for the right

Yeah, she's turning cruelty and ignorance into an art form, and that is persuading people who love cruelty and ignorance

that the Tories might actually still be a viable electoral force. I mean, it's not reflected in the polling, oddly

It's not reflected in the sort of calculus of the situation, but they haven't disappeared entirely

For the major party of opposition to be lagging behind the party of government

after the two years that Keir Starmer's had is both incredible and ridiculous

and I suppose hilarious as well. But you're right. Everyone seems to be buying into this idea

that because she has an occasionally half-decent performance at PMQs, the fact that she doesn't understand anything

or is across no detail doesn't matter. And therefore, we don't need to back Farage

because we're going to be able to have a Conservative to support after all

Yeah, so her ratings have stayed a lot higher than the Conservative's ratings

And I think I've been reading a lot of commentary to say that sooner rather than later

one of them is going to converge to the other. And I personally think it will be the Conservative rating that will be lifted up

by Kemi Badenok's apparent, you know, relative likeability. So there's a sentence I've never heard before in my life

I hope that I never hear again. But I think you might be onto something. I mean, the next general election could actually see a return to the two-party politics

that we've all written the obituaries for. Yeah. So the other part..

Why, though? So you've given me the why of it in terms of

that the alternative is suddenly real again. But what is it about what Farage has done in the last month or two

that has made people who were supremely comfortable with all the other disgusting things he's done

And it's a bit like Donald Trump when Ian mentions the grabbing women by their private parts

I mentioned the disabled New York Times journalist Serge Kovalevsky. Everybody's got a thing that they thought would do for Trump

and all of the Trump supporters stayed on board. Why would people have run out of patience with Farage this month

having been perfectly happy with all of the previous egregiousness? And I think this is the other part to it

I think Farage, this again sounds a bit of a counterintuitive comment

Yeah, go on, I like that. But I'm going to make it. Increasingly, in my opinion, here's a question

What does Farage actually stand for that there aren't better alternatives out there

He's probably the best at appearing to endorse racist views. Really? Given what Rupert Lowe has been going on about

and his apparent dedication to the cause. So he's not even the racist politician of choice anymore

No, and as I said... So the nose holders can go back to Cammy Bader not? Yes

And the out and out racists can sign up with the new party

or parties plural it so hard to keep up they all begin with R we can agree about that And that leaves him with who That the thing here I don know

And I think you'll become even more of a burning issue for him as things progress

And I think this is the thing here, and this is where the comparison to, I think, Donald Trump ends

Donald Trump makes himself front and centre of everything about what the Republican Party and what his presidency is about

his disappearing act during the whole £5 million donation gift scandal and him putting forward

people to speak on behalf of him who have been really apparently incompetent

while hiding while hiding this is a big difference so Trump will come out

and behave abominably but he apparently believes it himself he will attack the journalists

and it will stick what I don't know enough I've never lived in the states what's the difference here

what why so I've often wondered why when he shuts down a journalist or says shut up piggy did he say

that once or did I dream it it's so hard to keep up why doesn't the other journalist that he turns

to immediately stand up and ask the same question and the answer is that enough of the media in the

United States is is complicit in Trump's con that he knows that he can go and everyone's terrified

of losing access so he knows he can go to somebody next who will um who will not pick up the baton

that the previous journalist was running with and carry on. And in this country, for all of my criticisms of the media

something in the last couple of weeks has changed and it is a combination of the things that you've described

A few journalists who haven't done their job for a decade are finally doing their job

And part of the reason that you provide is unflattering. It's because they no longer think that he is the most viable alternative

to a Labour government that would upset their owners and the oligarchs that run them

and part of the reason is because I suppose when you talk about that other category of voters

you're talking about people who could never vote for a black woman to become Prime Minister

Yes. And I think, I think, look, I've said it to one of your other colleagues

in calling in. I personally believe... Hang on. You're not allowed to ring other..

This show's unique. You can't ring other shows if you ring this show. Did nobody tell you that

It's the LBC fix. No, no, wait. Eleanor, we can't be letting on people

who talk to other presenters. We've got to keep the show special. We've got to keep it pure

This is the J-O-B experience. We can't be messing about with people like Mo, however good he is

Mo, I'll let you off on this occasion because I've been away for a fortnight

but if I find out again that you've been talking to other presenters, we're going to have to have words or not

Okay. All right. In my heart of hearts, I still believe he doesn't want to be Prime Minister

I think he wants his 150 reformed MPs in Parliament and be a perennial troublemaker without responsibility

Maybe. And you've moved now into the realms of unsupportable speculation, as opposed to supportable speculation. And I'm all for a bit of unsupportable speculation. But I do think the weediness of the man has probably come to the fore. And that is, I think, why the Timu Trump shtick is falling to pieces. Because he's just a weedy man. He's a weedy man. A really weedy man

and the kind of people who want their prejudices endorsed or want to be able to hold their nose

and pretend that he's none of the things that everybody keeps telling them he is

You need to be possessed of something, whether it's sort of a pathological thing or not

I don't know, but you can't be a weedy man. You can't be hiding and also claiming

that you're the tough guy, you can slay dragons. All he does is moan

All he does is moan. and when there aren't any foreigners or brown people

or Eastern Europeans to moan about, he moans about the media, despite the fact they've given him an easier ride

than any other politician in the country in my lifetime. All he can do is moan and whine and complain

and bleat victimhood. Maybe that's why the people who might love the prejudices

and the bigotry are falling out of love with him because he's weedy

So Trump offers exactly the same... There's one crucial difference. This is my theory

I'll share it with you after this. James O'Brien on LBC. It's a combination of two topics that we have probably worried at more than any others in recent years

One is about the curious appeal of Donald Trump. And today, it's about why Nigel Farage doesn't have it

It's got something to do with ridiculousness. It's got something to do with how hard it is to come back from being ridiculous

And Donald Trump's ridiculousness is very different from Nigel Farage's. Donald Trump believes that he is superhuman

Somewhere inside, his insecurities are so immense that he's created this completely fake personality

that other people then endorse. And, I mean, you might get occasional glimpses

of how cowardly and thin-skinned he is. But when he claims... You know, the man dodged the draft, didn't he, to go to Vietnam

He is the very epitome, the embodiment of cowardice. but he behaves like a like a superhero so for bears a very little brain so convincing so he

promises to make rich people richer that's that's point one right the richer you are the more money

he's going to make you so he gets all of them on side and and 52 percent of the job is done

but the other 48 is to take poor people with you and how do you take poor people with you

well you've got to look back to the middle ages you've got to look back to the days of

unaccountable kingship. You've got to look back to the days of these mythological creations

that people would sacrifice their lives in support of, and the belief, or at least the ability to

persuade that they possessed. So Donald Trump, there's two things going on here. I want to stay

with this in the next hour, so if you're waiting to talk to me, don't panic. We will stick with it

I just find it really, really interesting, particularly this comparison now. If the wheels

are coming off the Farage bus, then why, given that Donald Trump's position

was untainted by all of his absurdities, so much so that he could be re-elected as president

So point one is ridiculousness, is that you look at Trump and you see something that's not quite..

It's the word that I want. It's not human. That's why he loves the memes

It's like a... It's the wrestling. It's the wrestling, right? So you watch the wrestling and you know, it's kayfabe, the word of the week

the week just before I went away, it's kayfabe. So you watch the wrestling and you have a cognitive dissonance going on

You know that what you're watching is not real. You know that it's choreographed and scripted and very carefully

you are being very carefully manipulated to stay excited and keep handing over your money

But at the same time, you love it. So somewhere inside, and I know there are probably some people who think it's all real

but somewhere inside, you simultaneously know that it's not real and love it

And that's the pay dirt. Oh, this is good. That's the absolute jackpot, right

That's where the money is. You're selling a pantomime. Oh, no, I'm not

But it's real. Oh, no, it isn't. So how can it be a pantomime and real at the same time

Don't ask me. Ask Donald Trump because he is literally a pantomime dame, a pantomime villain

a pantomime hero. He's Buttons. He Jack He the Beanstalk He the bloody giant He all of them and people know it not true but in the same way that the people behind And listen the wife of the bloke that set up the wrestling is now his education secretary

Because you think I'm exaggerating this stuff. That's the model that he has followed

We had that brilliant show, didn't we? That brilliant thing. That was on television with Munya

Munya Chihuahua, that superb examination of the relationship, the similarities between what Trump does

and what the wrestling does. So the wrestling creates mythologies, whether positive or negative

It creates mythologies. And the one thing the wrestlers can't do, this is it

the one thing the wrestlers can't do is take their costumes off. Right

The one thing the wrestlers can't do is show their real faces

come out from behind the very carefully cultivated persona. and it's weird but Trump never does that

You know, when he's dancing, he looks absolutely ridiculous but he's like a wrestling figure

And when he says fake news, he doesn't sound frightened of fake news

He's lying. You know that. I know that. He probably knows that. An awful lot of people around him know that

But he looks the part. He doesn't look frightened when he says to a female reporter

be quiet piggy or whatever it was that he said and normally you'd go that's absolutely disgusting

but hey he's not real it's donald trump he's the guy you know come on it so he manages to sustain

and maintain the exterior the the brand if you like i don't know what the word is the avatar

what is the word for the wrestling characters so because they're not real people he's the president

He's a wrestler called the president. He's the president. Here's Giant Haystacks

Here's Big Daddy. Forgive my references. They're a little out of date. And here's the blooming president

He's the president. So you cheer him or you boo him. You cheer him or you boo him

You don't yze what he's done. You don't pay attention to the court cases. You don't really care

Oh, I hate the fact he's made a billion dollars. Hey, well, more fool you. I love the fact he's made a billion dollars

You cheer him or you boo him. But what you can't do is see him. You can never see the human, the draft dodger

what's it grabber? The disabled person mocker. You know, you can never see him

because he's not a real person. What happened with Farage last week

particularly in that statement, is he looked utterly pathetic. He looked utterly pathetic

So even if you love what he's selling, you can fall out of love with the salesman

This is it, isn't it? This is what's happening. This is why perhaps things are a little bit more serious for him

than I thought at 10 o'clock this morning. Imagine if you are prepared to fall out with family and friends

because of your support for this guy, because he's incredible, he's the greatest

he's the goddamn president, he's just like Trump. And then you see him, I mean, you see him sort of dressed like a Dulwich College dayboy's idea

of what the landed gentry looked like, utterly inauthentic. You see him claiming that he's some sort of business genius

because he's been given five million quid by a cryptocurrency billionaire who is set to become ever more richer

if Farage introduces the policies that he announced and then deleted from his website

It's pathetic. It's pathetic. He's weedy and whining. So even if you love the snake oil

there's got to come a point where you go, well, I might love snake oil, but I'm not buying it from this bloke

because he's just a weed. James O'Brien on LBC. It's 11.03 and that's what they can smell

That's what the tummy ticklers and the toe ticklers can smell They can smell weakness

You never get that with Trump, do you? I mean, for all his ridiculousness

and for all of the clear and blatant adoption of wrestling tropes

and wrestling memes he never appears weak I mean, you know, this is a bloke that will share footage of him

as an enormous statue on the Gaza Strip that this is an absolute confection

a completely manufactured image, and America will buy that, or enough of America will buy that

Can you be a heel and a face at the same time in wrestling

So I'm on a bit of a crash course, and I'll take you with me if you don't know what I'm talking about

I promise, because I'm new to most of this. My friend Wayne is a bit of an expert on the wrestling

and Munya came into the studio to talk us through it. Keith knows a little bit about it

but you can be, so you're either a heel or a face, but actually it's a little bit more nuanced than that

So the heels can have fans, the heels are the baddies, the faces are the good guys

Trump is a heel and a face at the same time. Trump is a goody to the good guy, to the people that like him

and a terrible, terrible baddie to the people that don't. So even Trump derangement syndrome is like a wrestling phrase, isn't it

You just shout, hey, you got Trump derangement syndrome! And you go, no, I haven't, how dare you, man

You've got Trump derangement syndrome, and you're both arguing with each other about the same guy

You think he's a good guy. He knows he's a bad guy. He's obviously a bad guy, but then wrestling is wrestling

It's not real life. Farage's statement last week was weak. Oh, the media are mean to me

Oh, the political... Oh, career... How long has he been a flipping politician for

If he hadn't kept losing elections to dolphins, he'd have been in Parliament even sooner

The man is just objectively pathetic. And this is the thing. Trump is as well

But the fans can't see it. So this fascination I've got with what on earth has happened

while I've been on holiday is coming into focus now. And I think, to labour the point

that Farid, the real Nigel Farage, is coming into focus as well. And people who may well love all of the bigotry

all of the disingenuousness, all of the dishonesty, people who may love all of that

I don't want to be supporting a weakling. I don't want to be supporting a bloke who looks more and more

like Alan Partridge every day. I want to be supporting a guy who looks like he could..

I don't want to support a winner. I don't want to support a guy that's frightened of his own shadow

I don't want to support a guy that's only these days confident when he's in an empty room

I don't want to support a guy that started turning on all the journalists that have spent 10 years tickling his toe

I don't want to support a weakling. I don't want to support a weed. So as we move into the second hour of the programme

I'm wondering whether... I'm wondering whether that that is... Because I don't imagine you're going to ring me anymore

I loved it when you did, by the way. And tell me why you have fallen out of love

with Nigel Farage. because you tend to wait until I've gone on holiday

before you ring this program. But the reason why people are is because they've managed to persuade themselves

that he's a hero, a face, and the longer this latest saga has gone on

the more he's looked like a weakling, the more he's looked like a weed

who also has this Because Trump vanity I mean it changes almost overnight from a strength to a weakness The vanity of a man who would ignore Henry Novak own family

and seek to make political capital out of the poor lad's murder

A man who stands accused today of seeking to make political capital

out of Anne Willicombe's death. That is hideous behaviour. But if he's your man

you're not just going to go along with it. You're going to love... Yay! Look at him. He's upsetting all the right people

He's upsetting all... But what's he doing now? He's moaning about being asked to account for his..

And he tried to do it, didn't he? It's none of your business. I can spend it on Ferraris. I can spend it on whatever I want. It's none of your business

It's none of your business. He just looks weak. He looks pathetic. Trump would lie

Trump would say, yeah, I got really rich, but everybody else has as well. The only reason I've got rich is because I'm doing such a good job of running the economy

Farage isn't running the economy. He can't tell that lie. How come you've made all this money out of promoting the IRA

and taking gifts in secret from foreign-based billionaires. Well, it's because I'm a really good businessman

How stupid would you have to be to buy that? So you could, I suppose, and I'll check in a minute to see whether anybody has

send me a message saying something like, well, I'd take five million quid, but then you're changing the nature of wealth

So, listen, here's a bloke, right, in the boondocks. Here's a bloke who is never going to be rich, right

But he thinks about what he'd be like if he was. And I'm talking now about a rural American voter

I'm talking now about what we might in this country describe as an ordinary working class man

And I hate that phrase because if you're talking about Nigel Farage, the claim that he appeals to ordinary working class people

is profoundly offensive. In my experience, you're just as likely to be a racist

if you live in a manor house as you are if you live in a council house. But this bloke, poor old Neil and Andy

they should get a special award for staying on the line. they can have a rest if they want

I'm going nowhere until I come back from the next break because this is the key

God I've missed you, seriously I love my holidays, alright but this is the best job in the world

to be able to work this stuff out live on the radio, in real time

with your help, it's such a privilege I never ever underestimate that

I want you to know that you are imagining what it would be like to be rich

when you look at your hero. And you are thinking, and I'm going to indulge in a little bit of generalisation here

that will be a tiny bit lazy and unfair, but I am thinking about the kind of

the truck-driving Trump voter. And they imagine being a billionaire. And what would I do if I was a billionaire

Spoiler alert, they're not going to sponsor the opera, right? What would I do if I was a billionaire

Do you know what I'd do if I was a billionaire? I'd have McDonald's breakfast, lunch and tea

What does Donald Trump do? Lives on cheeseburgers. So his wealth and his greed is not going to alienate his base

because his relationship with money is exactly the relationship they would have with money

if they had lots of money. You know? That's why he wears a uniform

He's always wearing the same clothes. You can't read too much into what he's wearing. Red tie, navy suit, white shirt

just like a cardboard cutout. What would you do if you had billions and billions of pounds

Well, I'd want a great big plane. I'd want to fly around the world

in a great big plane and I'd want to have cheeseburgers for every meal

And they look at Donald Trump and his greed and his wealth and his quite possible corruption

and they think, yeah, man, that's what I'd do. That's what I'd do. They look at a wealthy liberal or a wealthy Democrat

going to the flipping opera, spending money on books, doing that kind of got a lot of money

Sheesh, no way. And Farage, craven desperation to be part of the aristocracy

The way that he dresses, it's so pathetic. It's like the fast shows idea of what a social climber would look like

And they see that. Farage wants to use his money to buy loads of houses

and to buy tweed suits and to pretend that he's a countryman. He'd probably buy a horse and go hunting if he could

So your person who is forgiving Trump for his financial greed isn't going to forgive because he's essentially saying

well, I can spend this money on whatever I want. I've already bought five houses. There's something here about what you would do if you were rich

And Trump is not behaving like the rich people. So you can stay on board

Trump is not behaving like the rich people. He is not doing all the things that you kind of feel alienated by

or you don't understand. Trump is behaving like a Trump voter's idea of how billionaires should behave

Nigel Farage is desperate for the approval of the aristocracy. Do you know this geezer who's given him a ton of cash, the latest story

Pos George, they call him. Why do you think they call him Pos George? Because he's an aristocrat

nothing says anti-establishment like staying in a house rented by an aristocrat do you see what i

mean he's so so i think and i'm obviously trying to read the minds of people who i don't know

but there's something here isn't there about a desperation to be part of the oligarch class

well trump somehow manages to simultaneously indulge these people seduce these people pander

to these people, sign up these people, while giving the impression of not being part of their world

of disapproving of these people, thinking he's separate from it or better than it

Whereas Farage, Farage, oh man, you can smell the desperation to be part of it

Had his face pressed up against the sweet shop window for his entire, let me, let me in, let me in

please let me in. Claiming to be anti-establishment. Is that the most ridiculous

Boris Johnson used to claim to be anti-establishment. What establishment is it that they're opposed to

With their Daily Mail columns and their Daily Telegraph columns and their aristocrat friends and their donations from billionaires

What the heck is the establishment that these clowns are opposed to? They're not, spoiler alert, opposed to the establishment

Do you know where Boris Johnson lived when he left Downing Street? He lived in the back garden of the bloke that owns JCB

That's how anti-establishment he is. He moved into a house owned by a billionaire

I presume for free. And it's a lovely thing for a billionaire to do

Most of them just get peacocks to strut around the garden to impress their guests

Anthony Bamford, the owner of JCB, he had an actual Prime Minister. He says, if you look over there, just look over there

Yes, you'll see a Prime Minister walk past in a minute. He's living in my summer house

It's like a little bauble in the pocket of a billionaire. That was Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage is exactly the same

Donald Trump gives the... Anyway, that's enough from me. That's my theory now

So two things have happened. Nigel Farage looks like a weed and they can't forgive that even if they still love what he's

selling. And the difference between him and Trump is that Trump is a non-billionaire's idea of how a

billionaire should behave, whereas Nigel Farage just wants to be in the same room as them

just wants to eat the crumbs from their table. Just while you see him sort of all smarmy and

sycophantic when he's in the company of people like Rupert Murdoch and Evgeny Lebedev, he'll never

to tell them that he's a victim of the media class. He'll never be telling Rupert Murdoch that the Sunday Times

is a Labour-supporting newspaper. He just saves all that for his mugs, for his marks, for his shills

for the voters. Donald Trump is a Donald Trump supporter's idea of what a billionaire should be like

because that's what they would be like if they were billionaires. Nigel Farage, by contrast, is just a tribute act

He just wants to be like them. so desperately that when questions are asked

of why on earth he's accepted a secret five million pounds from an incredibly wealthy foreign-based businessman

he has to somehow pretend that he deserves it, that it's a consequence of his hard work or his character

It's like being born 3-0 up and pretending that you've scored a hat-trick. You know what that money is. I know what that money is

Christopher Harbour knows what that money is. Nigel Farage knows what that money is. Honest Bob Jenrick knows what that money is. That

brilliant and hilarious woman who's running for London Mayor knows exactly what... None

of them can say it. Of course they can't. We all know what that money is. But he has

to pretend somehow he... Oh, I deserve it. I deserve it. I'm good for it. It's got nothing..

And that's why you shouldn't be asking me questions about it. So, why do you think this

particular scandal is landing in ways that previous scandals did not. I've given you my theory, and now I want to hear yours

Why is this, regardless of whether we think it's game over or not, why is

this one moving the needle? 350 poles, in which they were on top, and then last week one in which

they weren't. That's quite a big deal. As I say, it may be that the tide comes

back in again, but why is this one landing in ways that previous scandals have not? 0-3-4-5-6-0-6-0-9-7-3

is the number that you need. James O'Brien on LBC. Why? 18 minutes after 11 is the time

And I suppose that's the question that I would ask more loudly than anybody else. I could say, for example, I've been telling you for years

I've been showing you for years, with receipts, with evidence, how unworthy Nigel Farage is of your support

So why are people finally waking up to it now? What is it about these stories, all this money, all these donations

What is it about this moment that has and is causing him so much apparent damage

whether it's permanent or not? Right, I'm going to shut up for at least four seconds. Daniel's in Golders Green

Daniel, what have you got? Good morning, James. Firstly, can I give you an apology

Because you have been right. You have been trying to tell us for years. And some of us, like me, who've supported and followed Nigel Farage

have been willfully blind to it. Okay. look James Nigel Farage with regard to this scandal

has exposed himself as the charlatan snake oil snake oil salesman grifter

he really is he's given 27 different explanations as to as to what

and counting Daniel and counting and counting we might get up to 5 million James soon

no look first of all he said it was an unconditional personal gift from a friend

Then he said it was a reward for Brexit. Then he said something else

This is why it is his undoing, James, because he has given so many different

countervailing, contradictory explanations and excuses that, quite frankly, even the most hardcore Nigel Farage supporter

could not fail to see. But he's done this before in other areas

so I need to pin down why this area matters so much to you. So I remember when he claimed that his car had been tampered with and it hadn't. You know

that's a fairly massive thing to say, particularly if you've got young children. You know, they're

going to read these stories in the newspaper. They're going to be terrible. I remember thinking at the time, what is wrong with this man? And the people that you're talking about, possibly

including yourself, didn't mind about that. You know, the claims, let's leave Brexit out of it

but all of the things that he claimed about Brexit turned out not to be true. He changed his story

there. You've got the terrible events in Southport that he sought to capitalise on by

amplifying the misinformation being punted out by an alleged rapist. Why would all of those

wash over people, possibly you, and this one won't? I think because

of the sheer size of it, James, and the sheer... Because the amount of money

Yeah, the amount of money, and the fact that his reaction to it

It's not just about the size of it, the five million pounds. It's his reaction to it

It's him snapping at Nick Ferrari, your colleague, telling him it's none of his business

What's it got to do with him? I could buy Ferraris if I want

He has no understanding, Nigel Farage, of how appalling that looks to people

You know, sorry, James, in the past, In the past, Nigel Farage has been able to weed his way out of it

He's been able to actually, to be fair to him, put up quite a strong media appearance

He's been able to challenge and be quite forceful in what he says

This time, he hasn't. You know when he snaps at friendly journalists

Yes. You know he's done for. That is not the action. Those are the actions of a cornered rat

Crikey. Why do you think? I mean, if we were to speculate on what's going on inside his head then

what do you think has happened? Why has he not managed to find the right notes to play

in this particular spotlight? Well, as a former police officer who's dealt with suspects

who've been found guilty, when interviewing them or challenging them, James, they act offensive when they know they've done something wrong

And I suspect, although I don't know, but I suspect that Nigel Farage has had sight of a preliminary..

Hang on, don't we need to be a little bit careful here? Or we can simply say he fears that he is going to be found to have breached the parliamentary rules

Yes, thank you. Yes. I suspect he fears that he is likely to be found to be in breach of the parliamentary rules

which is, of course, why he then called this completely unnecessary, self-absorbed, selfish, unnecessary by-election in Clapton

So you get, so yes, so being cornered, and let's not call him a rat again, but being cornered

and knowing that this arsenal of skills that you have are not up to this particular task

and knowing that even the journalists who may have previously been extraordinarily friendly towards you

are going to care about this and to tell them that they have no business caring about it is the worst

Could he have handled it any differently? How might, if we were assembling a politician or a populist or a snake oil salesman

how might he have handled it differently? Once that five million quid came out and his attempts to claim

do you remember he claimed it was Russia Russian hackers or something or Russian people that had I can remember what he claimed but I sure he claimed that Russia had been involved So he tries it a bit like watching It a bit Do you know what I mean

Like trying, I'll try this and I'll try that and I'll try... And they all failed. The Russia thing didn't bite

Glenn Owen wrote it up for the Mail on Sunday. Everybody else laughed. Same journalist, in fact, who wrote up the story about the wheel nuts on his Volvo being tampered with

which was equally true. So he tried all of these tactics, they all failed

And the 5 million quid is not going anywhere. and that's the thing he can't get past

Exactly. He claimed that the information about the five million had come out

via a Russian hack is what he alleged, which is completely irrelevant because it's nothing to do

with the information itself. But that's worked in the past. You know, it's completely, whether it's true

or not doesn't matter. Is it enough? We talked a lot during Trump's first time about it and Boris

Johnson actually. All you've got to do is get through the next news cycle and so that would be enough to get him through the next news cycle

He's hoping people are going to say, oh, well, that's not great, but he shouldn't have been hacked by the Russians

I wonder what's going to happen tomorrow. This one is not going away and I don't fully get why, actually

Why is this one not going away? Is it because we all know what five million quid feels like

looks like? If it was a billion quid, he may actually be in slightly less trouble

because it is too big a figure to contemplate or to think about. But five million quid, it's simultaneously huge and paltry

Yeah, but it's not just about the amount. This time, it's about the way that he's reacted to it

He's behaving like a loser. He's behaving like a loser. He is. He's sulking. He's throwing his toys out the pram

He's refusing to answer questions to Beth Rigby. He's snapping at journalists

He's telling people it's none of their business. those are not the actions of someone who believes that they have done absolutely nothing wrong and

that they're all in the clear if he believes genuinely that he that there was nothing there

was nothing uh you know no wrongdoing he would say look this matter is currently subject to a

parliamentary investigation i'm confident i'll be cleared i'm very happy to answer questions about it

i'm confident i've done nothing wrong and i'll be cleared that's all he had to accept and yeah

But he's not. This is where your contribution is so effective, because he's not confident he's going to be cleared

So he's already trying to get in front of the findings of the committee

going against him, if and when they do, or when they do

He's trying to get in front of that, which puts him on really tricky territory, because he hasn't got the skill, he hasn't got the cards to sit this one out

to play this hand out. Correct. He doesn't. He doesn't, and he knows he doesn't

He hasn't got the cards, as his friend Trump would say. And also, again, that is why I believe he called the election

He jumped before he was pushed. That's what I mean by trying to get in front of the findings

and then being able to somehow turn around and say, you know, well, this doesn't matter

People have already spoken, which is obviously pathetic, but he banks upon the patheticness of people

to sustain his career, just like Trump does. Yeah, they do. And look, Trump has also shown himself

instead of making America great again and helping the millions of voters

who helped get him elected for a second time, he's been off enriching himself, making $2 billion for himself

You know, how can an ordinary voter, a struggling family in Florida or Alabama or Mississippi

how can they relate to that? You know, the guy's made $2 billion. It's, you know, there's nothing wrong with making money

if you pay taxes and generate wealth. I'm not demonizing that at all. But these are people that said

that they would improve the lives of the voters who voted for him. And he's laughing at them

He's laughing at them while pretending to be one of them, whereas that's the thing with Farage

The pint doesn't do it anymore. So he's laughing at them, and he can't really pretend to be one of them

because if someone gave them five million quid, they'd absolutely know that it was other people's business

You know, the idea, I'm running for office, I'd like to be prime minister. There's a billionaire in Thailand

that's just given me five million quid, but it's absolutely none of your business. You can't, that's it, isn't it

You can't laugh at that. Ah, you've done it again. Thank you, Daniel. That's another bit of insight

You can't simultaneously laugh at them and pretend to be one of them in this sort of moment

Trump still can, but Farage can't pretend to be one of his people

when he's refusing to answer questions about £5 million. He so obviously wants to be part of George Cottrell's mysterious world

That's the convicted, I don't know what word to use, criminal probably

but fraudster, the convicted fraudster who calls Nigel Farage daddy. Nigel Farage says he's like a son to him

It's funny, isn't it? What is it about George Cottrell that doesn't see Nigel Farage claiming that people like that..

He's a fighting age man, isn't he, George Cottrell? Is he a fighting age man, convicted fraudster

Why are you inviting him into your inner circle and letting him call you daddy

What is it about... I don't know. But you haven't got... You can't pretend to be one of the people that you're laughing at

unless you are possessed of Donald Trump's unique skill set. because Donald Trump is a philistine

And Nigel Farage, and he's intellectually a philistine, but he loves the trappings of wealth

Nigel Farage wants to go to fancy restaurants and private members clubs in the mall

Donald Trump really wants to have cheeseburgers for dinner. Nigel Farage wants to have, you know

fine wines and caviar. Donald Trump wants Diet Coke and cheeseburgers. If there's a PhD thesis in this somewhere

it will be linked to the food. I honestly believe the fact that

And I presume it's true. It's not like Harold Wilson's pipe. Nigel Farage doesn't even drink beer

when he's with his friends in the restaurants and the clubs that he goes to. He drinks expensive wine

Camera turns up. Oh, get the pint pot out. They probably keep it in a briefcase

Get the pint pot out. There's a photographer around the corner. And that is perhaps the bit that's beginning to slip

Why is he hanging out with aristocrats? Staying in their houses, not declaring their donations

Why is he taking five million quid from a crypto billiard? Do you know what

Maybe he's not one of us after all. Maybe he's not one of us

Maybe he's... Maybe he's one of them. Simon English has your headlines

James O'Brien on LBC. Three minutes after 11. I think I just want to clarify something

There's a first caller today, I think, Ian in Glasgow, pointing out how sad it is now

that news coverage contains the ethnicity of suspects with reference to the horrible story

about Anne Whittacombe's apparent murder. And the fact that the police now feel compelled to say

that the man who was originally arrested was a 26-year-old white man

They feel compelled to point out that they have no reason to believe that her death was politically motivated

And when I sit here sort of wringing my hands and saying how sad that is

I'm not under any illusions about why they do it. They have to do it now because of Nigel Farage

If it was announced that the suspect in a case was from an ethnic minority

then we would see the social media bonfires that we saw after the murders in Southport

or that we saw after the trial of Henry Novak. And it doesn matter that the family of the victims the families of the victims plead with politicians not to seek to make racist or political capital out of these situations If they don announce what the ethnicity is then they will lie about it just as they did with regard to Southpaw or the refugee status or the religion of a suspect

So it is a real shame that it happens, but I don't blame the police. I don't think the police have any choice

The only thing it does is, of course, create a world in which when a suspect is from an ethnic minority or when a suspect is a refugee, it creates an idea that it's almost OK then to react with terrible violence or with pogroms or with pure cold rage or whatever phrase you prefer

But they have no choice in the case because, of course, the massive, massive, massive majority of crimes are going to be committed by white people

That's just arithmetic. and so every time they announce that this we believe this

suspected crime or this actual crime has been committed by a white person

then the social media madness gets dialed down until it isn't a white person

that committed it and no matter then if the family as Henry Novak's father did come out

and say you know we were in court every day we know that this was not a racist

attack we know that this was not in any way linked to any of the things that terribly

dishonest and disingenuous people may claim, please don't do it. Alice Gross's family did exactly the same

thing. Fusilier Lee Rigby's family have done exactly the same thing. And people like Farage

ignore them. Already accused today of trying to make political capital out of Ann

Widdicombe's death. And if the police were compelled to announce that the suspect in that case

was from an ethnic minority, I'm going to let you speculate about what would happen. That's why they have to do it

I just want to clarify that I understand that, even if I perhaps earlier gave the impression

that I didn't. But still, Daniel was brilliant in Golders Green, I think, probably our first repenting Farragist

But why this story? Of all the other stories I've shared with you now

for 14 years or so, 12 years, why this one? Why is this one moving the needle

0345 6060 973. Not declaring benefits provided by a convicted fraudster. This man started knocking about with Nigel Farragh

when he was in his early 20s. why would a man in his early to mid-twenties want to knock about with Nigel Farage and call him Daddy

And why would Nigel Farage encourage him? Answer, he's extremely rich, and he gives lots of things to Nigel Farage

or his party, or quite possibly both. Because, of course, we don't know that Christopher Harbourn

is the only bloke to have just funneled money directly into Nigel Farage's own pockets

In fact, if you wanted to... And remember, I'm just asking questions

If you wanted to understand the petulance with which he's responding to these questions

One theory could be that there's way more money where that came from

And so he's got to try. He can't respond to this in his usual blustery way

because he knows that Christopher Harbourn is not the only billionaire to have given him money for undisclosed and ever-changing reasons in secret

Just a possibility, not suggesting for a moment that that's what's happened, but if you were trying to understand why a usually quite slick media performer

is suddenly looking so weedy and pathetic, the most obvious answer would be fear

Whether it's fear of this particular investigation or fear of further revelations, I do not know

11.37 is the time. Rob's in Gloucester. Rob, what have you got? Hi there. So, I think the reason that this whole story is sticking around so much is because he just keeps changing the excuse

I think he's always done that. No, but this is different. So, when it first came out, it was a gift for delivering Brexit

Yes. No, it wasn't. How dare you? It was security reasons because he's not safe

He still says that, Rob. He still says... No, no, no. That was the second excuse

No, that was the first one. No, so there was... I'm going to fight you on this

just so you know. Are you? Okay. So the first time it came out... Are you a heel or a face

I'm going to be a tweener. My wrestling knowledge is pretty dated, unfortunately

So is mine, actually. I'll be giant haystacks. You'll be big daddy. Oh, no, you can't be big daddy

That's Nigel's name, isn't it? For George Cottrell. I'm sure that when it was first..

when this whole story first broke, he came on some show and he said

that it was given as a reward for delivering Brexit by Christopher Harbourn

That was the second one. That was the second excuse. So the first excuse was the security

Yeah, because, and this is, hang on a minute, I just need, I know, but I want to say something quite serious

even though we're having a bit of fun at the moment. Of all the disgusting things the man has done

I think in a world where Joe Cox and David Amos' family

will never see their loved ones again, ever, to claim to be the most attacked politician in Britain in recent history

is beyond contempt. It's the single most disgusting thing I can remember

a politician doing in all the years that I've been doing this job

That's absolutely extraordinary. And it's why I remember with absolute certainty that that was his first explanation and excuse

for why he took the five million quid. And then the second was it was a reward for Brexit

Okay. But they've circled back now to it being security. Yeah, and he's repeated that hideous claim again with utter contempt for the families, the grieving families of Joe Cox and David Amos

He's returned to that bleating, cowardly victimhood as well. Yeah, but the problem that he's got is that, again, if it was for security, then the way around it would be simple

You could say, you know, well, the money has been put to one side and it's being released in tranches to pay for my security over the next 20 years

But instead, he comes on LBC and says, if I want to spend the money on Ferraris, I can

And of course, he still hasn't had any surgeries. He hasn't had any surgeries in Clacton

because he, I mean, again, he claimed that he'd been told he wasn't safe, and then all the people that he claimed had told him he wasn't safe

came out and said that they hadn't told him that at all. So this is why I'm confused

because maybe I pay too much attention to this stuff. But he has done all of these things before

He has changed his story before. He's, you know, he's done all of the things you described before

Something about this story is different. And it's not the wriggling. It's not the wriggling

Because that's his nature. That's who he is. That's all he does. He wriggles

True. But perhaps it's as simple as the fact that it's five million pounds that he's got to pay no tax on

Yeah. And at a time when people are struggling and bills are going up and you look at the price of petrol and all of these things

people look at it and go, he's just been given five million pounds and he can't actually really give any real reason why

And the money comes from this crypto guy and then a story comes out about him having conversations

with the Bank of England about crypto deregulation and all of these kinds of things

And you just think to yourself, it simply doesn't pass the sniff test

You know, this guy has moved to Thailand, has lived there for 20 years

His wealth is, you know, I don't know, seems a bit suspect

Well, you can't say that. I mean, we don't know that for a start

but it's certainly immense. All we can say with confidence about his wealth is immense

And in the realms of speculation, we can add, apparently it's still not enough for him

because he still presumably wants to make more and more money, which is why he must have been so delighted

when Nigel Farage coincidentally announced plans to introduce legislation that would make him enormously and measurably richer Why did he take the five million quid Rob Well I mean I guess he a man who likes to find the things in life you know

Oh, don't be ridiculous. He's a guy who claims to be a man of the people and a cigarette and a pint in the pub

but he also owns five houses and... Well, five that we know of. Yeah, it's like Bob Doris Johnson's children

Five that we know of. Yes, it's okay. Five that we know of

Five that we know of. That's the bit, I suppose, as a bit of a farageologist, if that's a word

the obvious answer to is he didn't think it would ever come out

which makes me wonder whether this is the only gift that he's received

But again, you know, we've got this parliamentary investigation going into it

and the excuse that, oh, it was a private gift, so it wasn't declarable

it just doesn't make any sense. And I think that's part of it as well, because the rules are very clear

In the 12 months prior to being elected to Parliament, you have to declare all of these things

That seems pretty cut and dried, doesn't it? Yes, I think it does

But again, that's for the committee to decide, and that is what they are investigating

But if we knit your call to Daniels in Golders Green a moment ago

then we're left with the very strong possibility that he thinks that result is going to go against him

So the only thing that explains this ludicrous pantomime in Clacton is an attempt to pretend that it doesn't matter

or to claim that the result doesn't matter, that the findings don't matter. What if that comes..

Five million pounds isn't an amount of money that you simply forget to put on your declaration form

No. You willingly decide not to do that. No, he's kept it secret. He's very deliberately kept it secret

We know that. And his argument is he didn't think he had to declare it. But why wouldn't you

Why wouldn't you declare it? Palpable nonsense, yeah. Why wouldn't you declare it? You know, you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

oh, and Christopher Harbourn's given me five million quid because, you know, he really likes my haircut

He's just five million quid. That's the bit. Should we add that to the mix

We've got a few minutes left before the end of this hour. I've got something completely different for you in the next hour

Why did he take the five million quid? Why did he take it? Greed

Just greed, right? It's just greed. Just why would you take... Because if I wanted to be Prime Minister

I would not take five million quid from you if you offered it to me. If you wanted to give me five million quid now

just because I've brought so much joy to your life, I would accept it. I want to be absolutely clear about that

If you wanted to leave me five million quid in your will, that with no questions asked, no strings attached

I would accept it. I don't know whether that's unethical. It may be unprofessional

It may be against global policy. It may be against the LBC regulations

in which case, obviously, I won't be able to accept it. But as things stand right now

if you want to give me five million, in fact, you can prove that I'm telling the truth now

by giving me five million quid. And I will accept it. I want to be absolutely clear about that

And there is no limit on the number of people from whom I would accept five million quid. I'd accept all of it

From all of you. Five million pounds. But if I was hoping to be Prime Minister

I just simply wouldn't. So I haven't had many like this. But one or two, the desperate attempts

to pretend that this isn't a big deal are coming from people who say things like

well, you'd take five million quid if someone offered it to you, To which the answer is, yes, of course I would

But not if I wanted to be Prime Minister in the next few years

That is almost such an obvious observation. I can't believe I have to make it

But I do. Because Idiot's Corner is still a thing, albeit that we haven't put anyone in there yet today

Well, you'd take five million. Yes, I would take five million quid if someone offered it to me, because there's nothing I can give them in return

Maybe if you said, if I give you five million quid, will you do Mystery Hour every day

if I give you five million quid, would you do Mystery Hour for three hours every Thursday

Well, I'll tell you what I'd do. I'd ask the boss. I'd say, is there any way I could do Mystery Hour

for three hours on Thursday? And he would say, why do you want to do that? I said, well

someone's offered me five million pounds. And he'd say, I do that face. And he'd go, I don't think so, James. I don't think that's really going to happen, is it? You know the face

right? It's not just me that sees that face. Can I do Mystery Hour for three hours on Thursday

please? No. Well, hang on a minute. Well, it's what the listeners want

Is it? Yes, look, this one wants to give me five million. Ah, no. I don't think

you can take five million pounds from listeners in return for doing Mystery Hour for three hours on a

Thursday. But can I take five million pounds for no reason whatsoever

Yeah, of course you can. Do you want to be Prime Minister at the next general election? No, of course I don't

Because if I did, there's no way I'd take a secret five million pound present, in quotes, from

So that, go on, seriously, we're moving on to something else at 12

If you want to jump in now, we're still asking the question of why is this landing so differently

I'm still not there, by the way, and that's partly my fault for paying so much attention to all the other wriggles and snivels and slithers that he's done over the years

Why is this one kicking? And why did he take the money

if he wants to be Prime Minister and the polls suggest he's in with a very good chance

he gets checkers for the duration of the Parliament he gets a free house

he can rent out all five of the property oh no he can't because he may have bought them

with the five million quid that he got off Christmas so that bit doesn't work but he gets checkers

gets Downing Street gets a chauffeur driven car I mean I know it's possible George Cottrell's given him

all of these things already undeclared but why did he take the five, if he really wants to be prime, why would you take five million quid

0345 6060973, it's 1147. James O'Brien on LBC. Some stuff I haven't, you think I exaggerate when I say I've been away

National Crime Agency looking at stuff, is that right as well? And then the Financial Conduct Authority

Maybe these are the, maybe the answers are obvious, maybe it's Occam's razor. This just is massive

This is a much, much bigger story than any of the other stories that I thought were really big

We all know how reliable my news sense is. But why do people care

And that's where the Trump comparison comes in. Trump can behave abominably, objectively abominably

His relationship with the truth is non-existent. He will lie and lie and lie again

How come it works for him, but it's not currently working for Nigel Farage

Yeah, the £5 million gift has been reported to the UK Crime Agency

over money laundering concerns. I think I was aware of that, but it's interesting to see it confirmed

The parliamentary investigation will continue if he is re-elected. And there are, of course, various other accusations and allegations

landing on an almost daily basis. So why now? 0345 6060 973

the footage I think is potentially most telling is the little bit

he did about having bought his own spectacles that, can we get that

actually, I'm just looking at the switchboard and wondering whether we'll carry on with this conversation

I mean to be fair I'm hardly letting anyone else get a word in edgeways which is what happens on my first day

back from holiday, it's like I've backed up a bit isn't it, I've got all this sort of

waiting to emerge but the bit so he went on stage and said oh and by the way

I bought my own spectacles and he had five million quid in his bank account then from Christopher

What an absolute... What a Luke had. What a rotter. What a Mountiebank he is

So, remember when everyone was pretending that Keir Starmer's spectacles was the biggest scandal since Watergate

Including lots of journalists who routinely tickled Nigel Farage's toes. So he turns up on stage and says, oh yes, and he does that little Alan Partridge-like, um, top lip quiver

He goes, and I bought my own spectacles. And he had five million pounds in his current account at the time

Maybe that's part of the question, the answer to the question that I'm asking. Five million

Oh, yes. I'm going to join in the witch hunt on Keir Starmer for having spectacles and a suit off Waheed Ali

And I bought my own spectacles. Yeah, well, you didn't buy your own house, did you? Allegedly

Five million pounds. That's how you know he thought this was going to stay secret

And that's why he's so rattled. And that's why I think it's possible

and remember, I'm just asking questions, that that's not the only billionaire to have bunged him a few quid

Andy's in Chippin-Camden. Andy, what's going on? Hello, James. Welcome back. You're on fire today, mate

You're very kind, Andy. Going back to your comments on Trump, I think Trump gets away with what he does

because he pushes this line that it's for the better of America

it's for the best of America. It's in their interest to leave him in power

I think with Farage, if we look at the performance of reform councils, their interest isn't in the good of this country

Well, nor is Trump's, but if he says it often enough, people can come away thinking that it is

Yeah, yeah. But I think with reform and Farage, they don't have policies, they don't have any recommendations for the good of the country

And I think people are beginning to realise that what they're doing is deliberately trying to damage the country

I think he missed the trick with the five million. He could have gone back to Harbour and said

can you slip me another five and I'll donate it all to veterans

charities and pay for my own by-election or something like that. But I think with him coming up with all these excuses

of showing him to be, you know, the modern personification of Scrooge

if you like, he doesn't care who says what about him. He thinks he deserves it, doesn't he

Because, you know, as far as I'm aware, he failed in the city. That's why he left

He failed in the city and boasted about how much money you could..

That's another clip we should play out more. There's a clip of him when he was in the European Parliament

essentially showing a journalist his receipts and saying, I can claim for this and I can claim for that

So he just jumped on that gravy train, claimed for everything, still going to get a what's it

Pension. Yeah. And he somehow thinks he deserves to be rich despite never really having done a proper day's work in his life

Yeah, and I think beneath it all, and similar with Trump, is the fact that he wants to destroy this country

I don't think he even wants to rebuild it in his ideas or his image

I don't even think he thinks that deeply about it. Putin wants to be in power

We can be fairly clear about that. It's a mutual appreciation society. And some fascinating reports today about Putin promoting the immigration narrative

that dominates social media in this country at the moment. Yeah, so it doesn't work in the way that it works for Trump

because Trump keeps insisting that he wants what's best for the country

Yeah, definitely But Farage can't even be bothered to pretend that he cares

No, he could have got away with it if he'd have made an effort of, say, donating half of the cash

Yeah, but then he'd have to admit that he had it Yeah, that's true, that's very true

I like it, Andy, thank you Here's the little clip that I was thinking of a moment ago

do you like them very expensive

but guess what i bought them myself how about that i don't think you did mate so it will prove it seriously hey you can spend the money on whatever

you want you can spend it on ferraris you can spend it on very so this is what he's doing he's

on stage in front of his um customers and he is responding to the story about keir starmer declaring

gifts from waheed ali including spectacles by claiming that he buys his own glasses and not

telling them so if you're in that audience perhaps you can hear yourself laughing 20th of september

2025, 2024, 2024, five million quid in his bank account already, claiming to his mugs, sorry

customers, sorry, supporters, that he buys his own glasses when he is not telling them. So, if you

maybe you can hear your own voice in the crowd laughing at that, because he's laughing at you

These people are so thick, he's saying to himself that I'm going to tell them that I buy my own glasses without telling

them that I've got five million quid in my bank off a cryptocurrency billionaire based in Thailand

Do you like them? Very expensive. But guess what

I bought them myself. How about that? Guess what? You already had five million quid in your bank account

that you didn't tell anybody about off a Thailand-based crypto. How about that

Eh? God, Jason's in Bolton. Last word on this. What's it going to be

Hi, James. First time caller. Welcome back. Welcome, Jason. I think two things happened last week

I think it reminds me of when Boris was in charge. And whilst Boris was feeding the nation and the media

particularly the Daily Mail, etc., with front pages, they kept him alive

But when they realised that those front page headlines were going to run out, that the barrel was going to be empty

they decided, right, it's now our time to take the moral high ground

and put the guy down. Well, the mail never turned on Boris Johnson

They were writing checks for him to sign up as a columnist almost before he'd got... In fact, I think he breached the rules by signing that contract

before he declared it to the parliamentary standards people. But, yeah, so..

I think the same is happening again. Two things have happened. I think they've realised there's probably not a lot else

at the bottom of the Nigel Farage barrel of big crap and decide, right, now's the time to deal with it for a few months

create some headlines, and then we'll move on to somebody else after that. Do you think there's a way back for it

Do you think we could be sitting here six months from now thinking, ah, well, we did it again

I don't think so. A great unflushable. No, I think the mood, I think the reformed voters

are now beyond being able to defend him. And I think they've realised now that it is time to move on

and letting go onto retirement or whatever he does next. But no, I don't think there's any way to recover

I think the second thing that happened last week, which I find quite amusing

is I honestly think they waited until you went on holiday because they can now turn the mood of the people

and claim the moral high ground and say, well, yeah, we found this out first

And James O sat on the beach from there and not able to The sound of the sun lands are playing Tetris Thank you Jason It coming up 2 noon You aren listening to James O on LBC

It's funny, isn't it? Nobody is defending him, actually. I've got Jay here, applying to going to Idiot's Corner

saying maybe you should change the subject. How about that? Don't you like what you're hearing, Jay

Why would you not enjoy hearing about how absolutely obvious Nigel Farage's weediness and pathetic response to this

Oh, I see. He's still clinging to the carcass of his credibility

And that's the big question now that the British political world will be facing

How many people will continue to cling to the carcass of his credibility when he, more than anyone, has just absolutely shot it to pieces

I don't know what we're going to do next. Should we talk about the weather, do you think

Or something else? Find out after this. James O'Brien on LBC. It's four minutes after twelve

You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. In the spirit of asking, I promise I'm moving on, all right

I am moving on. Eleanor just said, let's talk about the weather a bit later in the week

when you've actually experienced it. I said to her, I could probably work out what it's like when it's hot

I don't know that I actually need to have been. I got back late Saturday. Do you know what I tried to do on the aeroplane

I tried to log on to British Airways Wi-Fi to watch the football. I've got to tell you something, just for future reference

it's not possible to watch live football on, even the paid for

you know when you pay £7.99 I bet you think I fly club don't you or business, oh no, I'm still Jimmy from the block

I pay £7.99 to have access to British Airways WiFi for the entire flight

and I tried the lady next to me did it, I didn't even think of doing it

the lady next to me did it, so I'm trying to watch it over her shoulder this is the England game, this is the

Saturday night game and then I think well I'll do it myself

and I should have watched hers for a bit longer because it wasn't work there's no way you're going to get a good enough

what's the word Keith? it's not a signal is it a signal, a good enough feed

to watch live football in the air there's no way that the wifi is going to be strong enough

especially if everybody was doing it so anyway I digress slightly but in the spirit of asking questions

about the last two hours of this conversation I wonder if there was more

to that Coots Bank story than originally met the eye at the time. It was a very strange

story, that. Remember when he was whining about Coots exercising their sovereignty

and taking away his bank account? And now that we know a little bit more about his

finances, I just wonder whether it's possible, I remember I'm just asking

questions, whether it's possible that there was a little bit more to that Coots story

than we were told at the time. But at least we know he

buys his own glasses. So we're going to talk next about a Labour MP who I don't think I've come across before

who has said something relatively uncontroversial, I think, and possibly unnecessary. But the MP for Ashford, Sojan Joseph, has said that we need to distinguish between conditions that prevent work and those who do not

So they focus initially on ADHD, something that I find fascinating. and for I presume slightly obvious reasons, of which more later

and saying that if you've got mild ADHD or anxiety, you should not qualify for welfare payments

This is something that he said while chairing an all-party group on mental health

And I mean, we don't really have the numbers that we need

to wade in properly to this conversation. we don't know for example how many people who are not prevented from working by um by a mild

mental health condition are receiving welfare payments my understanding particularly of of pip

is that it's actually incredibly hard to secure um payments in these circumstances it's incredibly

hard to prove to the inquisitors that you are deserving but of course in in the world that

Paul Dacre has built, nobody is deserving. Everybody on benefits is undeserving. But it's

the ADHD element of it that I'm interested in. And there are two reasons for this. The first is

that I don't know that I have found, when we find a new subject to talk about together, which happens

surprisingly often considering how long I've been doing this job, and we have to keep finding new

things to do. For the very simple reason that if we don't find new things to do, we'll be talking about

parking tickets and smart motorways every day. So when we started looking into why an ADHD diagnosis was significant, we actually unearthed

some frankly extraordinary stories, some incredible stories. and the way that we found ourselves canvassing these stories was a little bit unexpected for me

what happened was in case you weren't listening what happened was that people were ringing in to

tell me about their children because that's where the story starts it starts with children

because these are conditions that didn't really exist well sorry that didn't have names or that

didn't have widespread understanding when we were children if you're anywhere close to my age

dyslexia was still a relatively fresh arrival on the in the in the lexicon of neurodiversity or

learning disabilities we didn't know what these things were do you know when i started this job

and i mentioned this to you every single time that we wade into these waters and i will continue to

do so um every single time that we wade into these waters because it's important to acknowledge

wrongdoing, especially your own. In fact, like me, you spend a significant part of your professional

life acknowledging other people's wrongdoing. It's even more important that you acknowledge

your own. I used to be one of those people who dismissed and poo-pooed things like ADHD

or oppositional defiance disorder or all of the various other conditions that have now been named

by science, I used to dismiss them as exaggerations and nonsense. And I used to mean it. It's important

that you know that. I didn't just do it for clicks and giggles. I used to say, well, we

just called it naughty in my day. We just called it naughty in my day. And I was naughty

and sort of the age of about three and a half to 18

15 years of conditioning had made me think that it was my fault

I had a choice. I was not, I mean, some of the things I did

and got into trouble for, of course I had a choice. But I remember the things, I've told you this before

that you do something, almost before you finish speaking, there's a little voice of shame inside you saying

why couldn't you just be quiet? Why have you had to do, you're going to get chucked out of the class again

You're gonna get beaten again. I mean who would choose to be beaten? How could I not work this out at the time? So I'm getting beaten again for the second time this week. Put your hand out

All right, thank you, sir. Beaten. And somehow you also persuaded that it your fault that you done the thing that got you knew you gonna get better Do you you see what I mean So I used to say oh we just naughty We used to call it naughty in my day

Whereas actually it is a compulsion. And the fascinating stories came from adults

who had only really recognized their own condition. I think that's the best word to use

When their children were diagnosed. So you take your little boy, your little girl

to have a diagnosis because the teachers had said, I think there might be some ADHD here

or I think there might be some... Maybe, I mean, OCD is a different proposition entirely

But you'd go along and you'd have a chat with an expert, if you were lucky, because it's quite hard to get seen

Long wait. And they would come away thinking, I think I... Well, I was like that as well

So I've got to stop telling my little boy off because he can't help what he's doing

But maybe I need to start being a bit kinder to myself. Maybe I need to start being a bit kinder to myself

Maybe I had this thing. So, the second reason why I'm particularly interested in this story

is that I think I do. And I know that sort of middle-class media figures

self-diagnosing ADHD is both very, very boring and very, very commonplace. So, I probably am

I was thinking about it quite a lot on holiday. I probably am going to look into it on a personal level

just to find that's going to be part of the question that I'm about to ask you, which is, is it worth doing

If your life is pretty good, if your relationships are pretty strong

if your career is pretty much where you've always wanted it to be, is it still worth doing

Is it worth getting a diagnosis? Interrupting is a thing. I was reading at the weekend

The reason I can't stop into, which is odd, isn't it, given what I do for a living, but we've got away with it, I think

What is the benefit of getting a diagnosis if things are going all right

Because we always have a conversation about people supposedly getting diagnosed in order to duck out of work or to avoid work

I don't think that's true. Here's what I want to know. What is severe ADHD

because it must really annoy you. I hope it doesn't annoy you when you hear people like me

suggesting that they've got it. You get it with OCD a lot

I know someone who has OCD and their sister used to get

absolutely outraged when people used the phrase in passing. So the boy who had it was pretty chill

but his sister absolutely hated it. So she would be at school

and somebody would say, oh, I'm really OCD about my pens, or I'm really OCD about my homework

And if her brother heard it being said, it wasn't quite water off a duck's back

but he had bigger things to, he had bigger fish to fry, he had more things to work

but his little sister would go ballistic, even at her own friends

She'd be like, you don't know what OCD is, you don't know what it's like, you shouldn't be using that phrase

So I've got a horrible feeling that when I sit here and casually say, oh, I was very naughty at school

and I interrupt people a lot, I think I've probably got ADHD. That might annoy you

I want you to tell me if it does. I want to know more. I want to understand better

But I also want to know about the gradations. I don't think it's inappropriate or incorrect

to talk about gradations, to talk about mild moving through the gears

right up to severe. But if it is wrong, I want you to tell me

This is one of those areas where we grope together in the darkness

and hopefully end up with a better understanding of everything than we would have had if we hadn't talked about it to each other

So you've got that first bit, which is gradations. What is the difference between mild and severe

The politics of it, I think you're probably going to be less interested in

Does the guy chairing the all-party group on mental health know what he's talking about when he creates an idea picked up inevitably by the Daily Telegraph

that loads and loads of people with mild attention deficit hyperactivity disorder

are claiming disability benefits. I don't know that that's true. I don't think that it's true, but if you've got the evidence that it is

then obviously I'll change my position on that. It doesn't seem to me to be the single most important element of what is going on

particularly with reference to NEATs. so what are the grades

what are the differences if you have severe ADHD how do you feel about people

bandying the phrase around now quite liberally to describe much milder symptoms 03456060973

number two very straightforward question what benefit is a diagnosis what benefit was a diagnosis to you

because I don't think you did it for the money. I don't think it's a disability benefit

that has improved your life as a consequence of getting an ADHD diagnosis

I think it's something much deeper and something much clearer inside, much, much, much more nuanced

But I want you to tell me. 0345 6060 973. And then on a personal level

and I may change my mind about this and exclude you from chapters 7, 8, 9 and 10 of the story

But on a personal level, if life is going well, is it worth getting one

That's a bit like the second question, isn't it? What benefit was it to you? But just knit the two together

because I'm kind of... Can I say it? Yeah, go on then. I'm asking for a friend

James O'Brien on LBC. It is 18 minutes after 12. you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

You kind of worry what's wrong with people who aren't interested in explanations for things

Well, I do. You know, like I used to be. Oh, get over it. It's just being naughty

It's ridiculous. Why do we have to have a label for everything? And then you hear the testimony of people

who have discovered relatively late in life that they have ADHD, or they simply describe a day to you, their mornings, their lives

School refusal is similar to this. The difference between can't go to school and won't go to school

Is it just a desperation to believe that the world is a much simpler place than it actually is

Or is there something? I don't know. We may get onto that a little later. 12.19 is the time

James is in Bristol. James, what made you pick up the phone? Hi, James, long-time listener, first-time caller

Thank you for taking it. You're very welcome. So, I suffer with ADHD

I have done my whole life I was 29 when I got a diagnosis

and this was just a subject that really touches the heart so I really wanted to give you guys a call

and talk about my experiences with that I mean you would say

severe would you for you I would indeed yeah I mean I'm not asking you to prove

it mate I just wonder what you would point so I say oh he interrupts people a lot and he can get to deadlines But I mean pretty much everything all right There just some stuff that clearly gets easily distracted

What would you file under severe? So for me, there's a few different things that really I would put myself in a severe category

So for me, it can take me anywhere up to 45 minutes to leave the house in the morning

That's due to, you know, forgetting keys. and then I'll go in with my phone in my hand

pick up my keys, put my phone down somewhere and then run around the house for 20 minutes

trying to find my phone. Being led in bed right up until the minute

that I have to get out of bed. I've got a job today that's an hour and a half away

from my house. I only got out of bed an hour and 40 minutes before

Rushed in the shower, had a shower, got my clothes on, had a bit of toast and off I go

This is brilliant because I could say and I would once have said, well, you're just a bit lazy

or you just enjoy being in bed more than other people do. But there's something else going on here

So what's your internal dialogue in those moments? There's a voice inside you saying you've got to get up

and another voice inside you saying, nah, forget it. Yeah, it's exactly that

There's a voice inside you in my head that's saying, you know, why aren't you getting up? Come on, you know you need to get up

You know the time's coming up. I'll watch the clock minute by minute by minute and count down

And then part of me says, oh, you know, no, we've got a bit more time. We've got a bit more time

and it's almost like being frozen in position, unable to move, until it really boils down to that last

you know, the pressure's on now. And that's literally the same as, you know

when I was at uni doing uni work, you know, handing in for deadlines. It would be the night before I'd pull an all-nighter

to, you know, finish off a half essay that I still had to do. Yeah, I'm like that

And I haven't been diagnosed. and a lot of people listening will think that that is not evidence of a condition

But what I want to pin down, I'm not one of those people, as you know, or if you don't know, you do now

What I want to pin down is where do we do... Because it's a bit like when I said, I used to get beaten at school, James

for doing some of the things that I look back now and think I was not doing voluntary

I knew I shouldn't do them, but I did them anyway. I know I need to get up and go to work

but I didn't, like you this morning. How would you persuade a complete sceptic

that what we are talking about is something other than weak willpower

or whatever words they're going to use this week, poor resilience? Oh, here's one

This is from someone called Alex. Oh, for goodness sake, intolerable leftist nonsense

Pull your socks up and stop harking on about the need to be kinder to yourself

which is the greatest evidence you'll ever find of someone who needs to be kinder to themselves

These kids are badly behaved because now both parents work and there's no real disciplinarian

I think they mean discipline. It's another treat me kindly label like being trans

Oh, bring trans into it. It's like bingo. Parents get their kids diagnosed for extra money

so they can buy them a car. So maybe not someone quite as unhinged as that

but a relatively nice person who is sceptical. How do you persuade them that what you've got is medical

rather than just behavioural? So I think anyone spending a lot of time around anyone with ADHD

is going to be the best way to, you know, convince someone in inverted commas

I don't think that just by talking to someone, if they have that mindset

I don't think you are going to persuade them. I can only speak from my personal experiences and not anybody else's

who may or may not suffer with ADHD. But it's soul-destroying. It's life-destroying

I would constantly be literally pulling my hair before I got my diagnosis

wondering why I was like this, wondering why I struggled to hold down a job

wondering why I would love a job for a year, and then hate it to the point where I couldn't even bring myself to go into work

I think that you really need to spend time with somebody who suffers with it

Some people suffer with it, some people don't. I don't think there is any clear-cut way

There's no substitute for first-hand experience either, I mean, as a witness

as opposed to a, I don't want to say sufferer, but someone who has it

And briefly, because I've got a lot of people who want to talk about this

what difference does the diagnosis make? Did the diagnosis make? It made me realise that I..

There's a reason why. And I think just knowing that there's a reason behind it

it's not just you. I'm so I'm very very very ambitious I've always had very big career goals you know the fact when

someone says oh you know it's just the way you are or you know come on get out of bed stop being lazy

I think that that you know when you hear that and when I would hear that before my diagnosis

it would just stoop you down another five levels ten levels to how you're currently feeling so it's

not a get out of jail free card it is just to stop beating yourself up card it's not a get out of jail

free card at all it is exactly as you've just described it um you know it's just there's an

understanding there now it's you know it's not that i'm just really forgetful it's not that

you know i'm unable to hold down a job for you know you're talking about the naughtiness at school

i was on i went to a public school and i was always on report there um there was never any

kind of you know why is he why is he behaving this way you know all of my teachers in my reports would

say he's a sterling guy but you know he's naughty um and that's like it's a choice like it's a choice

um and you're in work now because you're worried about being late this morning have you signed on

signed on for any welfare payments no i i personally haven't i know everyone's experience

of adhd is different and the reason that i haven't is because um i've always always been in good work

um i've always had a good job i mean i just picking up i don't know where dan in shropshire

got the idea that your bills are being paid by tax, but this guy is intelligent

and articulate. That's the good news, James. Yet taxpayers are paying for him

That's the nonsense. I didn't think that was true, but I just wondered whether you'd said something that

Dan heard and I somehow missed. I wonder whether that's part of the problem here, whether people

like Dan hear that you've got a diagnosis, and because they read the Daily Mail or they listen to

other presenters, they somehow think that means you then get money. Everybody who's got a diagnosis, like that

dreadful person writing about people getting free cars. Well, they've got a diagnosis, therefore they've got a free car

I mean, that is unhelpful. I don't know whether it's a small part

of the problem or a big part. Thank you, James. Now, get back to work! It's 12.26. Doug's in Cambridge

Doug, what do you reckon? Hi, James. I was just calling in many ways similar to your previous

caller, although my experience is slightly different. So, I was diagnosed recently

on 45 years old. And I would describe myself as someone who's had quite a successful life and career to date

So if anything, I think my ADHD has possibly been an advantage

largely because of the sort of hyper focus that one can experience

And, you know, my diagnosis for me just made me feel a lot better about myself, less in

less, you know, one of the features of ADHD is you're often a very harsh internal critic

Right. You can set very high standards for yourself and often fail to meet those standards

So it can lead to being very driven, hyper-focused, but also very harsh on yourself

So, you know, for me, it just made me feel much better about that, less self-being

So that's the phrase. I love the phrase, be a bit kinder to yourself

because, you know, it is even, I mean, even people that don't come across as particularly vulnerable

or gentle could benefit from being kinder to themselves. I think we could all benefit from being a little bit kinder to ourselves

And that's what you're describing. Rather than beating yourself up because of something

you now know that it is not a consequence. It hasn't happened because you didn't beat yourself up enough

Yeah, it's a curious thing. you know like I said I think for me it's had this incredibly

positive effect on my life, it's led to so much kind of energy and drive towards things

but that has also led to burnout you mean the condition not the diagnosis

so you've overdone it as a consequence of hyper focus yes, my particular story is that

I was experiencing what I'd describe as a collapse of function and I went to see a

a psychiatrist around about this and they ran a load of diagnostic tests. I wasn't specifically

looking for an ADHD diagnosis and that was one of the things that sort of came out of this process

and then I think that enabled me to look into what ADHD really was and I was somebody who

um yeah I probably you know like these sound bites that you read in the press about how everyone's

pretty useless and gets a diagnosis for the purpose of claiming benefits etc

It's so unhelpful isn't it or a free car don't forget the free car

I mean, it's been extremely helpful. I'm completely the opposite of that

And I think, you know, this game is a surprise to me. But reading properly about ADHD and the impact of ADHD

both in terms of, you know, how you think about yourself and how you interact with the world, it kind of explained a lot

And again, you know, it doesn't, like the previous school was saying

it doesn't excuse you from doing anything, but it gives you a reason

And I actually have a son, and it's very hereditary, and I see aspects of his own behaviour

and it helps me kind of understand now that perhaps he's not, I mean, we haven't sought a diagnosis for him at this particular point in time

But you think you can see it coming? Oh, yeah, you can see it coming, and it helps you

I think it helps you understand that he just has difficulty in areas that other people find straightforward

There's something really traumatic, isn't there, about watching children get told off. Whether you were told off or not yourself as a child. You know, when you're in the supermarket or something like that, and this isn't judgment on any of the parents, because I think times change

but maybe part of the reason why we find that so traumatic to witness

is because we subconsciously are aware that there's no way a child who's pushed a parent to that place

has done it on purpose. Do you see what I mean? Yeah, I think that's right

Because I know I did. I mean, my poor mum would have to deal with behaviour

that was not off the charts, but sometimes she would lose her rag

And the idea that I would deliberately push her to that position is the logic of punishment

You're getting punished for having done something consciously and deliberately. Getting beaten at school is a punishment because, particularly with the Catholicism that was part of my education

you are sinning, you are sinful, you have done something wrong. And a diagnosis frees you from that

And that must be so invaluable, so liberating. I really must. Thank you

I can feel it now, even if I can't necessarily fully and properly articulate it

12.31 is the time. Amelia Cox has your headline. James O'Brien on LBC

12.34 is the time. I just, listen, I will absolutely resile. Oh, that's a great word, isn't it

Is it a good word or is it a pompous word? I will resile from this position

I'm probably even using it wrongly. I will resile. Do you like that

Because sometimes language can be wonderful when you use words that are a bit rare

Sometimes you're just sort of being verbose. You're just using rare words or obscure words for the sake of it

Or long words. Do you know there's a word for using long words too much or a word for enjoying long words too much

Sesquipedalian. I have very sesquipedalian tendencies. Don't ask me to spell it

You're never going to get it in Scrabble, are you? S-E-S-Q-U-I-P-E-D or A-D-H-D

Which brings us back to where we were before. Thank you very much. 12.35 is the time

I will resile from this position if the evidence works. If the evidence makes it clear that loads and loads of people with relatively mild ADHD are claiming benefits

and that is the crux of the story. I've got some breaking news for you

I told you we would bring you any information as soon as it appeared with regards to the killing

or the apparent murder of Anne Whittacombe and I can tell you that counter-terrorism police

are now leading the investigation into her death after, and I quote

new information and evidence has come to light, end quotes. That's a statement in the last few minutes from Counterterrorism Police in South East

We may try to find out a little bit more about what that may mean before close of play today

If I don't, then I'm sure Sheila will be doing. Time now, 12.36. Some breaking news for you if you are just joining us

The Counterterrorism Police now leading the investigation into the death of the former politician Anne Whittacombe

after new information and evidence has come to light. That's from the counter-terrorism policing south east

12 is the time which is yet another reminder of why you should just let them get on with their jobs and leave them to it rather than engaging in either online or offline speculation and um uh uh uh uh what would the word be I trying to make capital or trying to make points out of things before the facts have been established

Back to this conversation prompted by a Labour MP, giving again the impression that loads and loads of people who've been diagnosed with ADHD

are finessing it immediately into welfare payments, which I don't think is true

Mark's in Streatham. Mark, what made you pick up the phone? Hi James

Hello, mate. A bit like yourself. I was very sceptical back in the day before I had my

well, before I had my diagnosis, I'd watch Super Nanny and say similar things to yourself

But again, having gone on a bit of a journey of self-discovery

I got diagnosed just before my 50th birthday. Why? Why did you seek the diagnosis

You obviously don't mind me asking, do you? Otherwise, you wouldn't have rung in. Well, I've always worked

or, you know, have, from the cross-stretching, with a very successful career in technology

But I always was curious, why do certain things come easy to me

and other things that are relatively trivial for most folks are real challenges for me

Like what? Remember, there'll be lots of people listening who don't know any of this

What sort of things are we talking about? Well, things like in my job, I travel and have to do things like expenses

And, you know, unless there is literally the sword of Damocles slash my boss sort of telling me

if you don't get this done, you're going to have to pay for this out of your pocket

Things like that don't get done. I hate paperwork. We can't explain this to other people who don't have it, can we

because they would just presume that there's no way that this is involuntary

No, exactly. And again, the sworn ogy comes up a lot. Outwardly, I'm quite happy presenting to multinational customers

all that kind of stuff. But inwardly, I'm all over the shop

And I think that's the thing. And the other thing I really wanted to point out is

perhaps another way of looking at it is if you do choose to explore this

or anybody who's curious if they choose to explore this, do it for your loved ones

Go on. I will. You speak very fondly of Mrs. O'Brien. I feel the same way about my partner

And I think it's, you know, we've been together nearly 40 years. So obviously she sees nothing in me

But, you know, there are times I annoy the living bejesus out of her

and I'll keep it clean. And I can't help it. and I think messiness

being late poor deadlines that kind of thing exactly not realising that you should have done something

that she thinks is self-evident you should have done exactly exactly I have no idea

what you're talking about yeah again if it wasn't for Apple tags

I would have no idea where my keys were 9 times out of 10 and you know

and she says have you got your phone have you got your keys have you got your wallet and you know I roll my eyes at her

but then when I forgot them she equally rolls her eyes at me. Of course. And it's like, at least now I know why

I can try my best and, you know, not like saying, you know, eight times out of ten

No, of course. It all works out. But, you know, at least she can understand

when I do things repetitively that are silly, annoying, whatever. You know, I'm not doing it deliberately

There is a reason. Yeah. Yeah, that's a great line. I'm not doing it deliberately

There is a reason. And that has landed with her, has it? Yes

Well, she's still... We're still together, so I think the answer is yes. No, well, I know

But, I mean, we all deal with our partners. I mean, the thing that really annoys me

well, since you ask, is when you have lost something and somebody suggests that you look in the place

where you normally keep them. Yeah. I mean, so everybody has little, you know

behavioural tics that may irritate the person who loves the bones of them

But she is now more patient with you than she was before because it's official, as it were

Yeah, exactly. And the other thing is as well, talking about people asking for benefits like PIP and so forth

I'm fortunate enough, although I think I scored about a 9 out of 10

on the scale of the type of ADHD I've got, I've chosen..

I don't think I need to make those requests of the state

but by the same token, those people that do, and there are things like access to work

as well as PIP. It's not the money, is it, often? It's the framework of support that can... 100%

And one of the reasons I haven't used things about access to work is I'm fortunate enough that my employer provides a lot of those things

you know, free of charge, without me having to go, you know

request from those governmental resources. But not a lot of people do

But they can still be working, running businesses and contributing and probably paying more than they take in inverted commas

Yes, yes. I mean, I don't know why that narrative... Well, I do know why, I suppose

because I can see what it creates. It can't be a coincidence. People who just want to shout abuse at people like you

or people like all my callers in the last hour, in the last 40-odd minutes

And that is just as old as the hills, isn't it? It's George Orwell's two minutes of hate

and we have currently moved into the territory of hating on people with..

You don't have a diagnosis. You're just lazy. You just don't like paperwork

You just don't want to get out of bed. And you've got to really work hard to sustain that prejudice

when people are providing you with such compelling evidence that it's more complicated than that

The Home Secretary, Shabana Mahmood, has posted in the last few minutes on, yes

the platform previously known as Twitter. This morning I have spoken to the head of counter

This is back to the Anne Whittacombe story. the head of counter-terrorism policing

Following new information and evidence, they are now leading on the investigation

into the horrific murder of Anne Widdicombe. The police are pursuing multiple lines of inquiry

to establish the motivation for this attack. I will be updating the house further this afternoon

My thoughts today remain with Anne's family and friends. That's a statement in the last few moments

from the Home Secretary, Shabana Mahmood. The time now is 12.43. You are listening to James O on LBC Let go to Hannah I think Hannah is the first female caller of the day which you know how much that irritates me when I don get calls from women

because there's an idea out there that this sort of radio is male-dominated

and sometimes it is. So thank God you're here, Hannah, in Arabistan in France

What made you pick up the phone? Yeah, well, it's also a misconception

that, you know, ADHD is mostly for boys as well, so it's also good to show that women have it just as much

Yes. I called him because I was also late diagnosed, same as many people, because of my son

And as I was going through all the box going, oh, that's me, oh, that's me, oh, that's me, oh dear

And I got a diagnosis when I was 47, so that was about seven years ago

And as many of your callers have already said, it's a way of giving yourself permission

and self-compassion and understanding that actually it's not just me and there is a reason behind it

Yeah. And I was very interested in this, so I did a whole deep dive

and I retrained and I'm now an executive function coach. What is executive function

Because that pops up a lot during these conversations. Yeah, so your executive functions is basically all of the functions

that happen in your prefrontal cortex. And it's like the air traffic control of your mind

So it's where all your time management happens, your emotional control, your working memory

your task initiation. So all of those things happen. And if you, when I'm working with a client

we have a questionnaire. And in fact, ADHD should change its name

to executive function disorder. That's it. That's it. So, for example, I have a terrible working memory. Absolutely awful. It can be really debilitating

However, I have really strong planning and prioritising executive functions. And so when we understand where our strengths and weaknesses are, we can put strategies in to help bolster up the more challenging areas and also reframe how we work

So we're not lazy. We just have really struggled with task initiation

And when you realize that that's the struggle, it's not because you're lazy

Suddenly you can have that extra self-compassion. You can have that. Okay, that's my challenge

What can I do to put things in place that's going to help me

And so you would become more productive as a consequence of more understanding of your own situation

Yeah, you're more patient with yourself. So, you know, on my computer, I've got a big sticker that says

oh, well, well, well, if this isn't a case of my executive functions not working today

Yeah. Do you have good days and bad days? Do you have good days and bad days

Or is it generally a fairly flat graph? No. Especially more so with women

because hormones, especially estrogen, massively affects ADHD, which is why most women are not diagnosed

until they go through menopause when the estrogen starts dropping. I didn't know that

So, yeah. So, yeah, we get it. Double whammy. So if everything in life is going relatively swimmingly

at home and at work, would it still be worth doing it? Would it still be worth doing the diagnosis

Absolutely. Because of the internal dialogue. More because of the internal dialogues than anything else

Well, one of the, I find, one of the most debilitating aspects of ADHD

is what we call RSD, which is the rejection-sensitive dysmorphia. Because neurodivergent children have heard more than 10,000 negative comments

more than their neurotypical peers by the age of 12. So this creates a huge level of shame

It is why a lot of high performers are ADHD, because we try extra, extra hard

I always talk about it as a swan. Like, you see someone like yourself who's just doing an amazing job

and on the surface, everyone sees you doing a great job, but actually underneath, the feet are going crazy, crazy, crazy, crazy, crazy

because of the shame. You don't want to be told off. You don't want to be late again

You don't want to, you know, forget your homework again. So, yeah, it's..

So there's always, yeah, there's no possible downside, really. Knowledge is power, isn't it, in a way

And this is just more self-knowledge is more power. How, and this is an entirely unprofessional question

and none of us, there's no earthly way we can put a number on it

And my evidence is always going to be anecdotal. But I am stunned whenever we open this book

whenever we open this conversation by the number of people who are queuing up

to tell me that they've had light bulbs suddenly illuminate above their heads

Here's one from Karen. I think you're talking about my husband of 43 years. And then she lists all of the usual behaviors

late everywhere, needs a trawler net behind him at home to catch all the things he gets lost

but he's an amazing helicopter pilot and a technological wizard. I think I'm going to encourage him to get a diagnosis

after listening to you and your callers. And I'll get more of those on this subject than almost any other

So how big do we think it is? I think it's... Estimation at the moment is sort of 20% of the population is neurodivergent

I don't stick to ADHD because there's so many crossovers with people who have ADHD

It could be more because the numbers are just responding to the increased knowledge and understanding, which increases the diagnosis

So you sort of find yourself wondering. I always think about school

If you've got 20 kids in a class at school and you look back and you realize now that one of them probably had this and one of them probably had that

Two of them may have had that. I started doing that on weight, actually, and thinking back to my school

Everybody ate exactly the same diet. It was a boarding school. You didn't get any other food

So if one kid was much more overweight than another kid, it wasn't because he was greedy or lazy or anything like that

There was something else going on, and yet at the time, no one realized. Even at a boarding school where you literally get fed the same stuff no seconds and you do the same physical exercise and you have someone who as thin as a rake and then someone whose nickname was based upon their size

and nobody really realised at the time that it had nothing to do with what that poor kid

has probably grown up with even more shame than the naughty boys. It's 12.50. James O'Brien on LBC

12.53 is the time. I'm sorry, I've been a bit thick again, haven't I? No excuses, but of course

if they create the idea that everybody with a diagnosis is claiming a benefit as a consequence of getting the diagnosis

then they create the suspicion that people are getting diagnoses unjustifiably. Because the massive majority of people with ADHD diagnoses

are not claiming a disability benefit, which means why would you be so negative towards them

So I'm going to be a little bit kinder to one or two of the people being negative or sceptical

But the massive majority, none of the people we've spoken to today are claiming a disability benefit

despite having, in some cases, very severe ADHD. So the negativity comes from the tabloid creation

of the idea that they all are. If someone is telling you

my life has been enormously improved by this diagnosis, and your response is to say

well, that sounds like a load of old rubbish to me, you're just lazy, then either you have fallen for the idea

that everybody with a diagnosis is claiming a disability benefit and don't deserve them

or you're not very nice. It could be the other one. But again, if you're not very nice

it's probably because you're not being kind enough to yourself. So you might benefit from some sort of support

or even sort of examination. They go hand in hand. I should have spotted that

I do apologize. Of course, the negativity is a consequence of the way that the story is covered

which is why it's so important perhaps to know the numbers, the huge numbers of people who have a diagnosis

but are not claiming any disability. I would say probably over 90% or more

I don't know, but anyway. 12.55 is the time. Let's just catch up with Thea Rickard

who is LBC's reporter in the west of England with these latest developments in the investigation

into the death of Anne Whittacombe. Thea, what can you tell us

Well, James, literally in the last few minutes we've heard counter-terrorism policing

and now leading the investigation into the death of Anne Whittacombe after, and I quote

new information and evidence has come to light. Now, the Home Secretary, Shibana Mahmood, says she's spoken this morning to the head of counterterrorism policing

and they are indeed leading on this investigation. She says the police are pursuing multiple lines of inquiry to establish the motivation for this attack

She also says she'll be updating the House further this afternoon. Now the 28-year-old white British man in custody has also been rearrested, we're told, on suspicion of commission, preparation or instigation of acts of terrorism

Now as far as we know, detectives are still questioning that man. They believe to be responsible for Anne Whittacombe's death

And we're waiting to hear whether he will be charged with her murder and charged or charged indeed with these new charges that he's been rearrested on suspicion of

The 28-year-old was arrested in Rotherham on Saturday evening and there was a substantial police presence at a house in the Kimberworth Park area of the town yesterday, which we understand is an address linked to the suspect

Today, James, we're seeing CCTV footage released in the press, which appears to show the white male suspect getting into a car in Yorkshire just hours before the attack on Anne Whittacombe

The footage, which is timestamped at 7.51 on Wednesday morning, appears to show the suspect with a long object protruding from his pocket

although the footage is not clear enough to tell exactly what that is

In a press conference held yesterday, Devon and Cornwall police said they are not looking for anyone else

after Anne Whittakin was found dead with what's been described as serious injuries

at her home on Dartmoor on Thursday morning. but an investigation moving James thick and fast

And that news that we've heard in the last few minutes, that counter-terrorism policing are now leading on this investigation

into the death of the former MP, Anne Whittakin. Thank you, Thea

And I suspect there may be more to report in the course of this afternoon

in which case, rest assured that Thea and indeed Sheila Fogarty will bring any developments to you to suite

If you are just tuning in, I can tell you that the investigation

into the murder of Anne Whittacombe has now been taken over by counter-terrorism police

That's pretty much the extent of our knowledge at the moment, except for the new information coming to light

since the original, or rather the second arrest was made. I'm going to apologise, I think, to Carl and Susanna

I'm doing a lot of apologising today. It'll never catch on, will it? To Carl and Susanna, who are waiting to speak

because it would be inappropriate of me to expect you to squeeze your stories into the next 47 seconds

But I can promise you that we'll return to this territory, partly because I find it more interesting every time

Between you and me, when we stumble into stuff that we haven't done before

and I've been doing the job for so long now that that can sometimes seem to be a relatively small category

I find myself wondering, oh, I wonder when I'll start finding it less interesting

I wonder when I'll feel that we've explored all of that, or I wonder when you've started getting a bit bored with something

But with this issue, I just don't. I just find it eternally fascinating

particularly when you think about the percentages and the number of people that probably have conditions like this

and the diagnosis of which will explain elements of their existence that have incredibly far-reaching consequences

So, good news is, bad news is, we're stopping for now. Now, the good news is we will absolutely be returning to it in the near future

And that is it from me for today. If you missed any of the show, you can listen back on our free Global Player app

or the LBC app where you can stay up to date with all the latest news, videos and opinions

You can listen to a range of podcasts, including James O'Brien Daily, the best bits from this show, every day

Download it for free from your app store now. Coming up at four on LBC, Simon Marks is in for Tom Swarbrick

because Tom Swarbrick is in for Nick Ferrari. but Sheila Fogarty is not in for Sheila Fogarty

She is actually, can confirm, Sheila Fogarty. I know my place. Here it is

Thank you very much indeed, James. James O'Brien on LBC