Children leading "let them drown" chants | James O'Brien - The Whole Show

0:00
It's four minutes after ten. A very good morning to you. You find me in quite a conflicted position this morning
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There are lots of things vying for your attention, or there are lots of things in my mind vying for prominence with regards to what we'll talk about first
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I'll just run you through them, if I may. The first is that comment there in the bulletin regarding Tony Blair and the necessity, in his view, of rejoining or putting us on a full course for full rejoining of the European Union within 10 years
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That would be, I think, quite an academic conversation. I'd quite like that if we were in a sort of lecture hall together and we just speculated on what would happen
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What would that mean? Would it work? Do you want it? Why wouldn't anybody want it
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Tom Sawbreak did a rather good job on the telly this morning with Kemi Badenoch, I don't know if you've seen it
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kind of boxing her gently into a corner where she had to say being in the single market would be great, but it's not our policy
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Something, something, freedom of movement, something. It was almost as if the last 10 years had never happened
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So that's on the agenda. I love conversations about social change, as you know
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particularly when they are viewed through the lens of education. and I worry now on an almost daily basis
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about the plight of young people not just because I have a couple but also because it is clearly a zeitgeist issue
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a national problem and finding ways to find things for them to do
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as they get older are underpinned part of yesterday's programme and will underpin part of today
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with the announcement of a radical shake-up of the school system in England
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designed to tackle this crisis and using vocational GCSEs to get kids better prepared for the modern world
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I love that. I love elements of social change that it obviously encompasses
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And then I'm haunted by something that happened a couple of days ago
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Now, there have been arrests with regards to the latest fascist flash mobs at ports in this country
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so there's not a lot that I can say about some of the details that you'll be aware of
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But do you know what it is? Can you guess what the line is? I went back over it
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I first saw it online on Blue Sky, which is the only social media I pretty much use these days
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I'm still on Facebook, but that's mostly for football. I just joined a group that will be posting pictures
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of R&L lifeboats, actually. I'm also in groups that infuse about bridges and cranes
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and that sort of thing. My Facebook is wholesome. I'm telling you, it is wholesome
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But I first saw it there and I thought that can't be true
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And I did something I very rarely do. I didn't check. I didn't inquire
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because there was enough of me that thought it might be true and I really don't want to know if it is true
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that I'm not actually going to dig into this one. Can you guess what it is
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With reference to the fascist flash mobs turning up at ports and RNLI stations and what have you
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There's one line in the coverage of this business that I'm really haunted by
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I don't think it's a phone-in. I can't at least think of what the phone-in is yet, but there's a large part of me
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When I say that I'm haunted by it, there's a large part of me at seven minutes after ten this morning
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that sort of struggled really for the last 20 minutes or so
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to think about anything else. A single line in all the coverage
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that is one of the worst things I've ever read. Now, listen, when I say things like
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it's one of the worst things I've ever read or one of the most disgusting things I can ever remember happening
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what I mean by that is obviously it's not worse than a hideous crime
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But what it makes it uniquely disgusting is the fact that it's the people who are supportive of it
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So you find me a hideous crime and you will not find a large group of people
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wearing masks or otherwise cheering it on. You know, you don't get, well, I suppose
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with the exception of some people who are currently facing charges, you don't genuinely, generally get
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for example, alleged rapists treated like heroes or convicted rapists cheered out of the court
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So when I talk about something being uniquely disgusting or uniquely gross
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What I mean is, within the context of approval, so attacks upon RNLI volunteers, uniquely disgusting
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because it's being done within the context of approval. I suppose what I mean is things where I would previously have presumed
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that everybody would be on the same side. Everybody in a civilised society would be on the same side
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Do we attack RNLI volunteers? either physically or verbally, online or off
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No, we don't. We are better than that. I have seen footage of an ambulance being blocked
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That's not what it is. It's just words. I mean, it happened. It describes an event
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but it's just words and who was doing it. I still don't know if it's a phone-in, but I'm not kidding
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At the moment, I'm finding it really hard to get past some of these moments of fascist decline
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And it's not really the people doing it that I'm most shocked and disgusted by
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It's the people who don't seem to know or care or fully understand how perilous these moments are
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Because I have read this week, and you may have done so as well, about one of these fascist flash mobs leading chants of Let Them Drown
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and a loud hailer being put in the hands of a child
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to lead the chanting in the United Kingdom in 2026. A child leading the chants of let them drown
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A child. I'm not a particularly hypersensitive individual. I've had to develop quite a thick skin over the years
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in various walks, areas of my life, not just this one. But I think it's important to retain the capacity
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to be shocked and disgusted. I really do. And I think the most important thing we can do
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is remember how to be shocked and truly disgusted, even when not everybody else is
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Do you see what I mean? This is how the really bad stuff happens, isn't it? When you sit here, if you do what I do for a living
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and I appreciate that you don't, but we all have conversations with people
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and it happens incrementally. The dial gets turned up very slowly so that you don't notice the notch
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We've gone from one to three. We've gone from three to seven. We got a child leading chance of let them drown in the United Kingdom in 2026 And it not even the headline on the stories of the fascist flash mobs
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It's not even the headline. That, I think, is what has shaken me the most
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The fact that you read halfway into the story, you read halfway into the coverage before you get to that bit
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And it has now appeared in reputable journalism. There's another story, oddly, just as I was picking up some of the stories
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that I've got in front of me today from the printer. The other one is the man at the Reform UK party conference
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has accepted a police caution, so it involves an admission of guilt
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This is one of the men who was assaulting a woman in plain sight and getting cheered on by the senior politicians in that party
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And I felt similarly about that at the time. I thought, what's happening to us
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I mean, leaving aside the utter hypocrisy of these people claiming that they represent protection for women
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or they champion the safety of women and then they essentially cheer on a man who attacks a woman
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in the middle of them, in the middle of their crowd. I felt a little bit like that
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And then I felt this way when the RNLI were in the firing line
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when a station was temporarily closed, a museum commemorating men and women
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who've made the ultimate sacrifice in the protection of complete strangers, gets closed because of fascists in masks
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threatening and intimidating the volunteers that do it. And then today, reading the coverage of these stories
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of these fascist flash mobs, I come across, not for the first time
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but in the most sort of reputable context yet, a child with a loud hailer leading the chance let them drown do you see why i'm struggling to
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muster up enthusiasm to talk about anything else even though i can't currently see
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how we turn this into a phone and i just i don't i don't want to sound self
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aggrandizing or anything like that but surely everyone should be talking about or should they
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or should they? I mean it's one child with one loud hailer
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at one fascist flash mob calling for and remember back to Reform UK
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they invited onto the stage at the last conference the one where women weren't actually
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getting beaten up in plain sight they invited a woman onto the stage so that they could celebrate her
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incitement to violence calling for completely innocent human beings to be burnt alive
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and you sort of sit here thinking am I going mad? Or is this absolutely awful
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And not enough people seem to be noting it or pointing it out
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or feeling the... What's the sense that I'm trying to convey? The full horror
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The full horror of where we are. A child chants, let them drown
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Shall we just talk about how it makes us feel? I think we will
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I think we have to sometimes. I can't... Maybe I should be doing it every day, but you kind of hope that these events
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aren't going to unfold every day. And listen, it's not some grifter
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who's going to appeal for lots of money in five minutes' time
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in order to, you know, pay for a lawyer who probably doesn't exist. So this is a child
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This is a victim of abuse, right? This is hashtag protect our children
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This is a child. chanting, let them drown. Let them drown. And I just want, I think, to spend some time this morning
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talking about how that happens and what we are going to do with
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or how we deal with these moments. I suppose if, you know, I was going to put on a full phone
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in Hath. I just ask, how significant is this? Am I overreacting
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Is my disgust a little bit misplaced? Am I providing, am I giving too much weight
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and too much attention to what will be a relatively small number of adults, possibly
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only one or two, who clearly have the brains of a garden swing
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But I just feel for that child. What chance has that child got
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Was that child you? What chance has that child got? So, in Britain in 2026
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I mean, another phone-in would be, who do you blame? You can't just blame the parents, can you
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Is it too easy, that question? Or do we park it now and start again
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after the hydration pause and talk about apprenticeships or talk about vocational GCSEs
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I honestly don't know. I wasn't going to talk about this today
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I just couldn't get it out of my head. The light comes on sometimes, and I don't know what's going to come out of my gob
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The boss still gets asked sometimes who writes these monologues, and you sort of say, have you listened to any of them
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It's just not exactly what you call structured. I don't know what's going to come out of my gob until the light comes on
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The producers are surprised as I am, by the way, that the first 16 minutes of the programme have unfolded
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But, I mean, is there anything more important going on, really, than the fact that children are now being encouraged
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to call for strangers to be killed in a context of almost celebration
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I'll tell you what I'd like you to do. Give me a ring. 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need
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And just tell me how you deal, how you are processing. these moments
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I mean, I'm using phrases now like fascist flash mob. I'm using the F word freely
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I think it is absolutely correct to do so. But not everybody is
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Not many people are. I would like to know what it's like to have parents like that
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but I don't really want to wish that on anybody. I don't want to wish that on anybody
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Let them drown. Chance a child. A child. Right, I mean, it's up to you, really
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whether we're going to talk about this or not. I haven't presented you with a neatly digestible question
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I've just told you something you may or may not have previously been aware of. These fascist flash mobs
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that may be getting more coverage than they deserve. I may be part of the problem by drawing more attention to them
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and giving more oxygen to the grifters that lead these nonsenses. But that just broke my heart
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A child chanting, let them drown. 0345 6060 973 is the number you need to tell me
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what this has done to you. That's all. What's happened to us
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What is happening to us? And what has this moment what is this moment what it doing to you Because I think that all we can do We have to point and wonder Because the alternative is to turn the page right The alternative is to look away
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The alternative is to make like an ostrich and stick our heads in the sand. And the adults
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you know, are contemptible, whatever word you want to use, but the children
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What is happening to us? 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need
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And the time is 10.19. James O'Brien on LBC. 21 minutes after 10
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and obviously I need to work a little bit harder to give you something to get your teeth into
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That's absolutely, absolutely fine. I said I didn't know whether or not we've got a phone in
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but I say that to you quite a lot these days, and I can't remember the last time I thought
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well, we have to talk about it anyway. But that is where I am today
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I don't know that there's a phone in here I haven't been able to work out what it is
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but I know that we have to talk about it anyway it's a funny thing
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just as a quick aside if I'm being interviewed about this job or I'm sort of offering advice to people
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who are relatively new to it the first thing that I teach them or the first thing that I tell them
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is to make the distinction between something that is a subject and something that is a story
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so I've often said to you the biggest story in the news doesn't necessarily lend itself
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to the conversations that we have with each other every day. And that's what I do
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I cross them off my list. I say, big story, very important, not a phone-in
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And I can't do this often because it raises the possibility of me
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having to talk to you uninterrupted for an hour. But some days, and this is one of them
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and the story's been around for a few days, it's been percolating. Some days I find myself
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well, this is the first time I can remember sitting here and just thinking, I don't care that there's no phone-in here
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this is my country you know we are supposed to care for our children for each other's children
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that line about it takes a village to raise a child it takes a country to raise a child and
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so bent and so backwards and so base as much of our public discourse become that the news of a
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child with a loud hailer chanting let them drown as um refugees make their way across uh part of
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the English Channel in a boat, it barely raises an eyebrow anymore, or at least it doesn't appear
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in the front of the story. Children, I'll read it to you from one newspaper today, most shockingly
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and this is paragraph one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, this is paragraph 10
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in the Guardian's coverage. I don't know whether it's appeared in any of the right-wing newspapers
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We have done so much to whip up the feelings that are on display here. Most shockingly, even amid the depths of vitriol towards migrants among some here
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and this was in Portsmouth at the weekend, children had been seen chanting, let them drown, into a megaphone
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Even underproped slogans saying things like protecting our children's future. By doing what? By turning them into Nazis
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Let them drown. I mean, what should we do? What can we do
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And the answer to me seems at the moment to be nothing. All I can do is talk about it
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and hit you over the head gently with the obvious observation that this is a really bad moment
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It's a brilliant piece in the New World this week by Matthew Dancona when he makes a point that hadn't occurred to me previously
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The people who watched the rise of the Nazis, they're not really around anymore
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That kind of sense memory, it doesn't matter whether you're talking about the UK or Germany
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where, of course, the Nazi successors are on the march politically at the moment
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But people forget how it happens. It doesn't happen overnight. It's not like a guillotine falling
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It's not like a kind of magician. Curtains open and suddenly we've all gone Nazi
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Again, another piece you should read is Dorothy Thompson's article in Harper's Magazine from, I think, the early 1940s
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when she just goes around an American dinner party asking the question, who goes Nazi
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Children chanting, let them drown. That's how holocausts happen. those are the early signs of a society that is in mortal danger and you don't need me to point
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out the politicians who will be either tacitly or explicitly encouraging this spoiler alert they're
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the same politicians that enjoy watching women getting beaten up at their own party conferences
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let them drown let them drown what what do we do in these moments how do you deal
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with these horrors unfolding in art midst. And no, I mean, you can ring me and tell me
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that I'm overreacting if you want, but I'm not. I'm not overreacting
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Should that child be taken into care? I just don't know. Tina is in Stoke Newington
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Tina, what would you like to say? Well, this might be a bit of a long thing
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But in 2016, I heard an old woman saying something very similar about torpedoing the boats when they were coming across the Mediterranean
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She was saying this on Great Malvern Station and nobody intervened on that at that point
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I'm standing watching her. I'm a transracial adoptee. I'm Anglo-Somali. And I'm standing in my hometown listening to somebody from my hometown who's talking in that way about refugees
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knowing, well, I just feel really vulnerable now. I feel like we're at the point in cabaret
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where they start singing Tomorrow Belongs to Me and nobody seems to mind
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I mean, when that happened to me in 2016, I started to say to my friends
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this is dangerous. This is going to go into a really dangerous, horrible place
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And everybody told me to shut up. And now we're here. I hate all of this
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I'm scared. I mean, it's unbelievable. I don't want to qualify what you've said, but I suppose that what you're describing is a decline, isn't it
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Because on a platform at Great Malvern Station, miles, hundreds and hundreds of miles away from where these human beings are actually in danger and in peril
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it feels a world away from a child chanting it into a loud hailer
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while the human beings that they want to die could actually be within earshot, conceivably
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but you're quite right, you know. It's just, it's the same path, isn't it
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We're just describing different paving stones. Yeah, and it's just, I've been sitting here watching it getting closer and closer
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and I'm just glad I live in London now. I don't want to go to Malvern. I don't want to go to lots of places in England anymore
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because of the way I look. I'm, I'm, I'm English. Well, no, I know you are, although Suella Braverman has been
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I don't know quite what verb to use, writing about how you're not English
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and never could be but we may get on to that a little later in the programme What does I mean you not overreacting I hope this doesn sound ridiculous It helpful for me to hear you just to remind myself
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that I'm not overreacting either. What we are seeing is absolutely hideous
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and what people are missing is that the distinctions become increasingly blurred
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The idea that, oh, no, it's only the ones in the boats I've got a problem with, that doesn't butter any parsnips with you whatsoever
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Well, we don't mean you. they never mean me, but they're, am I supposed to take somebody with me who knows me and can vouch for me everywhere I go
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and say, oh, I know she looks a bit Somali, but don't worry, because her parents are white and her brothers are white
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Honestly, it is terrifying, this is now. And finally, well, I mean, you can talk for as long as you want, I have, but the fact that it's a child
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what do we do with that? I mean, how significant is that? I think that is the point where it's gone too far
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That's what I mean about everybody singing Tomorrow Belongs to Me. Because it's a child singing that
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Yes, it is. It's a juvenile. And then it seems reasonable to join in, doesn't it
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when everybody starts singing, standing up and singing. I know it's a movie, but it looks like that to me now
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It really does. Of course it is. I've not really clocked that. I've seen the latest production in London of Cabaret three times
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It's one of the most powerful things I've ever seen performed. performed, but I'd not clocked the fact that the child singing the song is a kind of..
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It makes it open the door. Well, it doesn't just open the door. It wedges the door wide open, doesn't it
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The door is open slowly, but when a child starts singing it, it's not going to close again any time soon
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Yeah. Yeah. I'm bothered by this. I'm really bothered by this. I am
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I don't know. Thank you. Because I still don't know what the phone-in is
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but I'm very glad that you managed to work it out for yourself, Tina
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I don't know what you do with that child. I mean, that is a child who has been radicalised
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If it was a little brown child chanting for people to be killed outside a place of worship
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for, say, Muslims or something, then what would the Daily Mail be doing
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What would you be doing if the Daily Mail had allowed... shouting, death to another minority, or let them die
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You know, what would we be doing? We'd be talking about nothing else. but in Brexit Britain, and I think Tina's right to track it back to 2016
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a child is chanting, let them drown, in the midst of a fascist flash mob at a British port
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and it only makes paragraph 10 of The Guardian's coverage. Meanwhile, far-right politicians are queuing up
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to offer their support to the fascists. James O'Brien on LBC. 10.34 is the time
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I hadn't clocked that moment in cabaret. It's the presence of the child
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You know, it's the dramatic impact of a child. And you see it in Schindler's List as well
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Aled reminds us in this message. It reminds me of the scene in Schindler's List
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where the little girl is shouting at the line of Jewish people being walked down the street
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If you haven't seen the film, they're being relocated or moved into the ghetto
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And the little girl just shouts mockingly, Goodbye, Jews. Let them drown
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Goodbye, Jews. clearly Alid points out Spielberg used a child for impact because it is so impactful imagine
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taking your child to such an event imagine a child saying such things well we no longer have to
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imagine that's the thing isn't it so I just kind of can't get past this notion that it I mean it
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doesn't always happen that the foothills don't always lead to the top of the mountain but we've
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got fascists now street fascists in in this country being talked up by elected politicians
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and being championed and promoted by the richest man in the world and the latest outbreak of this
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process is a child calling for people to die a child because it's happening incrementally or
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because it's happening slowly, we aren't noting it properly. Charlie's in Southampton. Charlie, what would you like to say
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Good morning, James. I must admit, I didn't know about the child being involved
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and that has enraged me. I used to be, a long time ago
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a safeguarding governor of a secondary school. and a kid was they were doing research it was a sort of general studies type thing and this kid
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was looking at websites and he went looked looked for the bnp website now that was picked up by it
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in the school the guidelines at the time said if something like this happens ring the police for
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advice. Now they then turned up Because it's extremism and the same thing would have happened if they'd been
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sort of looking up a sort of pro-Taliban website or something like that
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Absolutely. It was exactly the same sort of thing and I'm sure that would
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still happen today and the police turned up. They weren't asked to turn
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up, they just turned up and the father went to the press
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with it and it was all blown up out of the proportions that it should have been
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The child was doing some research as far as I'm concerned. He was looking for different opinions
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However, what this child is doing is incitement to manslaughter. There's no other word for it
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You could even say murder. But fortunately, the law of the sea is different
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and the RNLI do a superb job at saving lives without let or hindrance, without prejudice
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This child must be identified. The parent must be identified. If ever there was a time when..
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I can't remember what it was called, when they were getting Muslim kids who were going off the rails
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The deradicalisation. Yeah, that's right. And actually getting them to understand that we are talking about human beings here
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So you essentially, the word missing from what you're saying, but it underpins everything you're saying
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is that this child and potentially this family needs help. Well, yes, I would say that
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So you need to steer people back from this insane course. Well, what I'd say that they need is education
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Yeah, which is help. Yeah. I mean, again, I am second generation in this country
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Right. My grandparents, I'm in my very late 70s. My grandparents came over to this country in 1895 on one side and 1905 on the other
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to avoid the pogroms being imposed by the Russians. No change there then
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but, you know... So we've been here before, and these are the moments
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and I keep saying, because it kind of reassures me... as well, but the seeds don't always sprout
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You know, we get to the fifth rung of the ladder when full-on fascism is the 20th rung
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and it's not guaranteed that you go from 5 to 20, but if you don't point out that you're on 5
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then the chances of getting on to 6, 7, 8 increase exponentially. While I've got you..
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It's happening. Well, I think it is, and again, you know, I worry not so much about the..
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well, I'd worry as much about the people who are encouraging it, either implicitly or explicitly
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as I do about the people who are doing it. While you're here, Charlie, you don't have to do this
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but I'm just looking at what Sue Ella Braverman, because we're talking about the people who are implicitly
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or explicitly encouraging this sort of behaviour. Sue Ella Braverman, Home Secretary on two separate occasions
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but absolutely no responsibility whatsoever for all the things that she spends her entire life complaining about
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wrote something last night about not being English. In no way, she said, is she English
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Yes, I was born in England, I speak English, and I support the England football team. Spoiler alert, no, she doesn't
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And indeed, I love English, England and the English people. And here it comes, but to say I'm English
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is to take a laissez-faire, anything-goes attitude to ethnicity, citizenship and identity
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It also denies me my Asian heritage. Leaving aside for a moment that she
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I don't know what nationality she thinks she is, but she's clearly as thick as mince. She calls herself British
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Englishness is an ethnicity. There have been English people for centuries. And no, it's not racist to say this
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Again, yes, it is. She doesn't think you're English either, does she? But presumably your skin is white
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so you're not going to be in the firing line as much as the people who look like her
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No, and she's wrong. I'm English to my core. Of course you are
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Of course you are. Go on. This is the country that raised me
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Yeah. You know? Like you, I was privately educated, and I'd like to think they did quite a good job on me
32:12
But there's one thing they didn't turn me into was a fascist. No
32:16
Well, I think probably it is time to start talking about silent majorities
32:21
majorities, which is normally the language of fascism, but I refuse to
32:25
believe that there are, in the words of the late Joe Cox, that there is more that binds us
32:29
more that we have in common than sets us apart. That comment from Braverman
32:33
the problem is, it's like the Streisand effect, isn't it? Why am I talking about Soella Braverman
32:37
It's bad enough having Liz Truss in our news bulletins. These people don't
32:41
deserve our attention. Until you see things like that child chanting let them drown, or you hear
32:47
read the reports of the child chanting let them drown, and you realise you can't ignore it
32:52
You can't say, oh, no, we can't talk about that because we're just giving attention to attention seekers
32:57
This is precisely the sort of rhetoric that informs the ignorant hatred
33:01
that that child in Gosport is a victim of. Charlie, I think they did a cracking job at your school
33:06
Thank you. My apologies in the meantime to Mintz. 10.42 is the time
33:10
Russell's on the Isle of Wight. Russell, what's going on? Hello, James. Long-time caller
33:14
First time getting on. Welcome. I'll just tell you a story that happened
33:19
yesterday, I was in the pub having a pint with my son, and it was
33:24
sort of mid-afternoon, and there was four people on the table next to us
33:28
two sort of middle-aged couples, and they were talking about the usual immigration
33:32
stuff, and the woman looked up and she said, I'm a Christian woman, I obey Christian
33:37
values, but when I hear let them drown, she said, I say
33:41
good, and I thought, that's absolutely amazing. I was like, what part of
33:48
Christian values are those then, you know? I think that's the American brand of
33:52
the American evangelical way. It's just epic hypocrisy, isn't it? I always remember that lad in London on the underground
33:58
when, I forget precisely what the nature of the attack was, but a lad walking past just said
34:05
you ain't no Muslim, bruv. It was sort of, it was doing something bad
34:09
and claiming that he had some sort of Islamic rationale or justification for it
34:13
I think we need to start doing more. You ain't no Christian, bruv, don't we
34:18
Well, I was quite flabbergasted, because it was in this sort of, the beer garden bit
34:21
and there was families and, you know, young people in there. And it was, you know, she wasn't keeping her voice down or anything
34:28
Well, why would she? You can do it, you know, she could have got a loud hailer
34:31
It was in Leytonstone, I think, that episode I just remembered. And that's the point, isn't it
34:35
This is what I'm trying to articulate, and I think, actually, stories like yours are better than pontifications like mine
34:41
because they nail it, is that she would not have done that five years ago. Yeah, absolutely, yeah
34:46
When, of course, there were way more boats crossing the English Channel, but the statistics and numbers don't seem to matter to these people
34:52
She would not have done it. She'd have felt too ashamed. It's kind of worse here at the moment, obviously
34:58
because there's sort of boats coming around the Isle of Wight, you know
35:02
And, of course, obviously, everyone's assuming that they're coming onto the Isle of Wight, which is absolutely not true
35:06
Even if you read the local press, you sort of get that impression. But, yeah, I just wanted to..
35:11
I mean, I'm not criticising you, because I don't know what anyone can do in those circumstances
35:16
but you just let it slide, right? You can't, I mean, what are you going to do? Have a row, have a stand-up row in a pub
35:21
Ask them to chuck her out. Ask her what church she goes to and write a letter of complaint to the vicar
35:25
Yeah, well, I mean, I was so sort of flubbergasted, I kind of, I didn't know, you know
35:29
sort of open-mouthed, really. But, you know, and then they carried on about that
35:33
oh, they'll be over on the cruise ships next, and it's just like, you know, just let them go, you know
35:37
And again, it's utterly detached from the truth. This is the thing that baffles me most
35:41
If the problem is real, and anything like as big as they keep telling us
35:45
why do they have to tell so many lies? Why don't you just tell the truth
35:49
Because if you tell the truth, then that woman should be celebrating the fact that this country deportes more people
35:54
than come here by small boats every year, by a factor of 100%, twice as many
35:59
But the facts have left the building, and when the facts leave the building, fascism is sometimes not far behind
36:05
James O'Brien on LBC. It is 10.48. Very much of a piece with the bogus Christianity
36:13
of the racist in the Isle of Wight that our last caller encountered
36:17
and indeed of the sense of the sort of creeping fingers of fascism
36:21
getting closer to the windpipe of our nation. But also of a piece with me spending an inappropriate amount of time
36:30
wondering whether we should give more attention to people who are clearly so desperate for it
36:34
But when you see the consequences of what they're doing, you see a child chanting
36:40
let them drown into a loud hailer in Gosport. you perhaps need to give your head a bit of a wobble
36:46
if you do what I do for a living and talk about these unsavoury, desperate
36:50
attention-seeking characters a little bit more. And one of them who sort of..
36:55
Do you remember the pretend priest that used to be on GBBs all the time? I mean, he's back
37:02
And using rhetoric that I don't think anyone would have used in public five years ago
37:11
And here we are. 10.49 is the time. What do we do in these moments
37:16
Imusilua is in Fulham. Imusilua, what made you pick up the phone? Hi, James. How are you
37:22
Well I mean it always nice to hear your voice And there something quite reassuring isn there about conversations like this But because you recognise that you not alone in your horror But this is I not exaggerating I don know what happens next
37:36
And it is unlikely to be good. Yeah, it's unlikely to be good
37:41
But I think there's one thing, you may disagree, but it always surprises me when people are so surprised
37:48
Yeah, of course it does, because you're a woman of colour, like my first caller, and I'm sitting here going, oh, goodness me, this is all terrible
37:53
and you go... Exactly, because I think people really forget. Nigeria only achieved independence in 1960
38:02
That was only 66 years ago. Before that, we were under colonialism. And really, you could argue that after independence
38:08
the Britons had far too much of a hand in a country, but that's because of a reason
38:12
Like, reason never really existed. You had to have a reason for colonialism, and that was racism
38:17
So where did it... It never went anywhere. It just never went anywhere
38:20
Like, I've never... The last time I called myself English, I was probably a teenager
38:25
I'm 33. Why? Because I've always recognised that it's not quite my country
38:32
in a way that I feel comfortable saying to, like, 100%. But that's something that's been done to you
38:40
Yes. Yeah, okay. But then it's why then I can then look at the situation now
38:44
and be like, I'm just not surprised. Because there's always someone that can tell me
38:49
but you're not, where are you really from? Yeah. You can't really be from here
38:53
So it's just the graduation of that. That question has been asked many a time over many years
38:58
So all we're really just seeing is that question kind of... It's just out in the open now
39:03
That's it. Yeah, that is definitely inarguable. But it's still what you've described
39:08
It's still a hop, skip and a jump away from a child chanting, let them drown
39:13
And in the midst, it has to be sort of an approving, albeit small, crowd
39:19
I don't think it is. Do you not? I really don't know. Tell me why. No, I don't think it is. I think, I don't know
39:25
I might say you can't be English. It doesn't mean I want you dead. No, it doesn't
39:29
But it allows you to question. Like, it allows that really, like, little seed of question
39:34
Like, why are you really here? Like, it allows you to ask me why I'm actually here
39:40
If you can ask me why I'm here or where I'm from, then you can get to should you really be here
39:45
and actually I don't want you here. And however you're not here is fine
39:49
Does that make sense? Yeah, I guess it does. I mean, you're describing a spectrum, right
39:53
Yeah, exactly. Like, you can see the steps. You can see the steps
39:57
Racism has... You have to teach children to be racist. You have to teach children everything
40:02
If you teach them to be racist, it doesn't surprise me. It just doesn't. Like, adults that are racist have come from somewhere
40:09
Somebody... An adult taught you to be racist when you were a child. Therefore, you are now racist as an adult
40:14
I don't talk enough, and maybe we could do it this week or next week
40:18
about children who managed to break out of that parental embrace. It's hard
40:22
It's hard. I know I've got a very good friend who's done it, and it really is hard
40:27
Yeah. It's like breaking up with your family. Yeah. It's like breaking up with your family
40:32
Like, if you figure out that actually racism, or when you figure out that racism is wrong
40:38
you really actually have to break up with your family because everything they do will literally blow your mind
40:44
How do you think this way? Yeah. No, it'll blow your mind. So then your support system goes
40:47
Like, you can see why people don't do it. You really can see why people don't do it
40:52
But that means that you end up having children who are doing the things that they're doing. Like, I actually don't want to cry because, like
40:57
but, like, the frustration, oh, it's tiring. It's exhausting. Like, you just look at a situation, you just think, how
41:07
How do you get here? Like, people shouldn't be scared. Your first caller shouldn't be scared
41:12
Like, sorry. Oh, God, sorry. Hey, don't say sorry. you you just like you people just want to live their lives you just want to be safe i've lived
41:21
in london all my life and she's right like there are places i would not go i just wouldn't go because
41:27
i don't want somebody to ask me where i'm really from or ask me why i'm here or ask me anything or
41:33
just even make me feel unsafe in ways in ways that wouldn't have happened five years ago oh
41:38
absolutely no no so i so while i say that it it has always been here and it has this outward like
41:45
show of, yeah, you're really not welcome. In case you've considered it before
41:51
in case you've thought it before, you know it now. You cannot be unsure. Well, talk to me a bit more about that
41:58
if you would, that final element. Because for people listening to this who might in good faith say
42:02
no, no, no, I just mean the people in the boats. I don't know what you're worried about. I don't mean you
42:06
I just mean the people in the boats. Where do you derive your certainty? They look like me
42:12
They look like me. what is the difference between them and me
42:16
What's the difference? Tell me the difference. Is it that they look different? Is it that they look a bit more intent
42:21
Is it that they, like, what is it? Before I open my mouth, you can see I'm a black woman
42:28
Before anything else. So if all they have to do is come in on a boat
42:31
you don't know them, you don't know their story, you don't know why, who wants to get on a boat and leave their family
42:37
Who wants to risk their life to cross, like, logically, it doesn't make sense
42:41
Well, unless what you are moving away from is more dangerous than what you are moving into
42:48
It's so bad. What is the difference between them? At this point, just for the record, and this isn't a correction of you
42:53
I just don't want racists listening to this programme to feel that I don't understand where they're coming from
42:57
They now say, oh, well, they're fleeing France. They're not fleeing Somalia or Nigeria
43:03
And, of course, the point that they miss is that everybody gets to decide where they want to end up
43:08
and most people do not make the final decision to cross the English Channel
43:12
They settle somewhere miles and miles away. But because we've conquered half the world
43:16
and taught them all how to speak English and because a lot of people have family here, England becomes the destination
43:20
Britain becomes the destination. While I've got you, and I wouldn't ask everybody this
43:25
but I know you've probably thought about it before, so I'm not ambushing with you. What's Sirena Braverman playing at
43:32
What's all this about? I'm not English, me. I could never be English
43:37
I mean, what's she actually on about? I, I, oh, you're not going to, oh my God, this is difficult
43:42
Don't go there if you don't want to. No, no, no, no, it's not that. I think that sometimes people think that if
43:48
it's like if I engage in the same rhetoric as them, maybe they'll think I'm one of them
43:53
Maybe for one second they'll forget that I'm actually not. If I am even worse than them
43:59
I'll convince them that I'm not a threat. If I make, because in order to do what Swellerman is doing
44:06
you have to make yourself really small you have you have to tie yourself in knots you have to
44:10
forget everything about where you've actually come from you have to make yourself time you have to
44:14
reduce yourself to this thing that is just angry all the time because maybe maybe you're afraid
44:19
maybe you're afraid that actually you don't belong maybe you're afraid that if they figure out
44:26
that you are who you are then actually they might turn on you too so if i if i tell you to turn on
44:32
them you won't turn on me and that's the opposite so that those are you've just done it in the space
44:38
of one phone call the two poles here the first is but they look like me and then the second is
44:46
i can make that not matter by exactly by attacking people who look like me absolutely like i can be as
44:53
i can do it too but just don look over here don look over here because you look over here you might think that I one of them It not hard to feel sympathy for people who done that to themselves Oh you have to feel sorry for them
45:05
You have to. Like, once you get past the anger, you actually have to say
45:10
I actually feel sorry for you that you think this little of yourself, that you are willing to do this to yourself
45:15
Because once this time is over, Suella Brethren still has to live with herself
45:19
And that's a difficult thing to do. Yes, and I even found myself
45:24
feeling a bit sorry for Liz Truss this morning. I've got a surfeit of sympathy, I think, in Miss Oluwa
45:28
but I'd rather be like that than have none. Yeah, I agree. You have to, because otherwise the humanity goes
45:34
Yeah, and that's why my mind goes immediately back to that child with the loud hailer
45:38
Where is the humanity there? Who has stolen humanity from that child
45:44
And the answer is their parents. I mean, if a child is rendered morally corrupt at an early age
45:52
it's not the child's fault. Whose fault is it? It's usually the parents. And yet, of course, if this was a little Muslim boy or a little Muslim girl outside a mosque
46:01
calling for unbelievers to be burnt or to be drowned, then the reaction in our media would be absolutely immense
46:10
And so it would be here as well. Let me be absolutely clear about that. I'd be equally disgusted. Absolutely equally disgusted because I'm weird, you see
46:18
I don't judge behaviour by the skin colour of the person doing it
46:23
It's such a strange thing to be in Brexit Britain in 2026
46:28
You show me a sex offender, the first thing I want to know is what colour they are
46:31
before I decide how angry I am. You show me a murderer or you show me a terrorist
46:36
and the first thing I want to know is, well, where were they born? No, I'm being facetious and sarcastic
46:44
You show me a rapist, I'll show you a scumbag. And I couldn't give two figs where they come from
46:51
I care about what they've done and justice being served for their victim
46:56
But, of course, that is not true of people in public discourse in this country now
47:00
You can attack a woman in broad daylight in the middle of a party conference
47:04
and get applauded effectively or defended or encouraged to mock the victim
47:11
in a major political party. James O'Brien on LBC. Three minutes after 11 is the time
47:20
We'll stay with this. I meant it. I really did. You know I did. You can tell, can't you
47:25
I don't know what the phone in is, but I have to talk about this. And, of course, we're talking about much more than just a child
47:31
chanting let them drown into a megaphone while adults look on approvingly
47:37
and Border Force officials or RNLI volunteers try to do their duties, try to do their jobs
47:46
And, of course, the relationship, just the presumption of negativity. Oh, I don't care that the numbers are down
47:52
there's too many here already. Where? You know? There's a processing backlog
47:58
Deal with it. Let people pay taxes. And that's the point that my callers of colour have been making
48:06
that it's hard for a white person to see sometimes. It is us in the firing line, they feel
48:12
and explain quite clearly it is us in the firing line, because the presumption is not
48:17
that they are going to be a drain upon our resources or they are going to be a threat to our safety
48:24
because of the mode of transport they deployed to get here, they are to be feared and they are to be repelled
48:32
because they are of colour, because, as Emisalu said, because they look like me
48:39
I don't know whether liberals sometimes are a bit too frightened of stating the bleeding obvious
48:46
but that's the point. There's nobody there who is going, oh no, I'd be alright if they came via safe and legal routes
48:53
that were shut by people like Suella Braverman and Liz Truss. No, I'd be fine if they were..
48:58
They are conflating ethnicity with threat. They are othering. Oh no, James, that's not true
49:05
It's just the boats I've got. It's just the way they got here. That's why I don't care that the numbers are coming down
49:10
because there's so many here. Oh, I don't know how they got here and I want them gone as well
49:16
So it's not actually about the mode of transport, is it? It's about the fact that they're not white
49:20
And that's, I think I was right to do so. I wasn't sure why I've brought Suella Braverman into the conversation
49:27
What a day. Liz Truss in the news bulletins and Braverman on the O'Brien show
49:31
Which, of course, she presented once. Oh, what a time to be alive. But her writing five paragraphs of pretty much undiluted gibberish
49:39
about why she can't be English. I've got to say something. I don't know how Jewish people feel about this
49:44
it may be exhausting for you to be constantly offered up as a counterpoint to people like Suella Braverman
49:52
But can a Jewish person be English under Suella Braverman's reading of it? Charles, earlier, our caller
49:58
his grandparents fled the pogroms. If you say you can't be English because England is an ethnicity
50:05
you can't take this cosmopolitan approach to Englishness. They're terrified of being called racist
50:09
So they say, is Ed Miliband English? Suella Braverman. is Ed Miliband English
50:16
And this is relevant to the fascist flash mobs because they are not responding to the mode of transport
50:23
They are responding to the othering of other humans. It's just on different scales
50:29
Let me read it to you. But to say I'm English is to take a laissez-faire-anything-goes
50:33
attitude to ethnicity, citizenship and identity. It also denies me my Asian heritage
50:39
She's nuts, right? But I'm reading you what she's written. The Liberals, many of them in today's Conservative Party
50:45
take this cosmopolitan approach to Englishness. They're terrified of being called racist
50:49
so they say that anyone, as long as they're born here, can be English. I take the Conservative approach
50:54
Englishness is an ethnicity. There have been English people for centuries, and we need to recognise this more
50:59
if we are to start taking a more muscular approach to citizenship and nationality
51:04
And no, it's not racist to say this. I mean, to be honest, I'm not sure it is racist, particularly
51:10
It's just incredibly stupid. Here's a question for Suella Braverman, right? Imagine the island of Ireland is united
51:18
Now imagine that the direction of traffic in Scotland and Wales continues at pace in the direction that it's currently going
51:25
So within our lifetimes, we see an independent Scotland and an independent Wales
51:29
Suella Braverman writes, I am proud to be British. My family and ancestors have a link to Britain which spans century
51:35
But in no way are we English. OK, so Ireland's being united, Wales is independent
51:40
and Scotland's independent. What are you now, mate? What are you now
51:48
You live in England, you were born in England, you speak English, and you say that you support the England football team
51:52
but you're not English, you're British. All right, Ireland's united, Scotland's independent, so's Wales
51:57
What are you now? I'll wait. Well, I won't wait, because Keith will have a panic attack
52:02
and the emergency tape will kick in, but, you know, it's a figure of speech. What is she now
52:07
And is Ed Miliband English? and I'm sorry to bring Judaism into it or Jewishness into it if you find that difficult
52:16
I really am I don't want to make anything difficult for anybody but she doesn't mean
52:19
white people until of course she does because that how it works oh no I don mean you not today your next week news tomorrow belongs to me What is she What is she In that perfectly feasible future England
52:36
where she lives and where she was born. But she can't be British
52:41
because that doesn't exist anymore. It's just all so nuts and so ugly and so stupid and so wrong
52:49
But I'm glad we're talking about it, because someone flipping has to. Debrina is in Barnet
52:53
Debrina, what would you like to say? Hi, James. My gosh, I've been kind of thinking through this call with you for many months
53:02
If only everybody did that. But I just want to say thank you for allowing a brown woman to make this call
53:12
I'm a bit nervous because it's quite traumatic what happened to me a few months ago
53:16
I was travelling to Clacton to see a very dear sick friend of mine
53:21
Sadly, they moved to Clacton a year ago. It's not out of choice, but for health reasons
53:27
And I was on the train sitting, minding my own business from Stratford
53:32
Two men got on who had, from somebody born or lived here in the 1970s
53:38
had the Army of the National Front uniform. Okay. And came on, two men, middle-aged
53:47
They had cameras. they were taking videos of all the brown and black people on the carriage
53:56
coming up to us. I had a Muslim lady with her baby in her arms wearing hijab
54:04
I had a black man opposite me. I'm a brown woman. And they were videoing us
54:11
And then they said, you will all be deported soon. and got off the train at the next station
54:23
which was Chelmsford or something. And, you know, all the people of colour
54:30
we just, nobody knew what to do or we were just like in shock
54:37
No one said anything. We were just like looking at each other
54:41
And this sense of, for me now reflecting on it, this sense of permission now to be openly racist in public spaces
54:52
And having lived in London in the 1970s, where, you know, walking around with the National Front and the BNP
55:01
you know, I was really scared as a young person. And I'm in my 60s and I'm scared again
55:07
What is going on, James? How are we allowing this to happen
55:12
How do we stop it? How do we stop it? Well, I mean, our politicians have got to be..
55:18
That's the problem, isn't it? No, I mean, Davey tried, to give the guy credit
55:22
No, he did, he did try in his conference speech. He went in pretty hard on some recent events
55:26
many of which, or some of which, we can't talk about because of legal proceedings
55:31
But where's Andy Burnham? I know, but where was Keir Starmer? I mean, I'm just, I'm so disillusioned
55:40
Been a Labour supporter. don't know who to support anymore. Shibana Mahmood
55:45
Shibana Mahmood, arguably making things worse or offering up... Yes, yes. All these people of colour
55:52
in positions of power who are taking the populist argument and just, I'm just so..
56:00
It's heartbreaking. I work in mental health. I work with people of colour
56:05
We are... The lack of hope, the lack of sense of any kind of unity being driven on a humanitarian scale
56:17
you know, to just make sure that we don't allow this hideous oppression
56:22
stigmatisation, discrimination. It is everywhere, James. And this is the point that I think..
56:28
Well, I mean, I would be a little bit more confused about how Shabana Mahmood could miss it
56:35
but Andy Burnham or Keir Starmer are somewhat less confused because what you know and what all my callers today pretty much know
56:42
is that if people are talking about the mode of immigration or they're talking about however they dress it up
56:50
oh, I only care about the illegal or I only care about the boats or I only care about..
56:54
And then, of course, they slip sometimes and say, no, I didn't ask for this, and then you suddenly..
57:00
But you know that this is a spectrum upon which you sit
57:04
Yes. And just like the last caller, it is scary now, being brown, being black
57:11
It is scary. I don't, and I'm thinking about my friends who are white
57:18
There is a certain white fragility when I talk about this stuff
57:22
You know, that it's, maybe they don't quite know what to say
57:26
but there are lots of people who are who are so anti
57:31
any of those parties, you know, reform restore, all of that I mean I was listening to
57:38
Rupert Lowe on the Rogan show in America and he talks about
57:44
he talks about we need to be looking at people who are
57:48
pure blooded I haven't heard that, I've got no reason to doubt you, my capacity
57:54
for being shot by people like that is probably disappeared completely, but I mean
57:58
are you sure he wasn't talking about Harry Potter? No, no, no, no. He was
58:02
talking about pure bloods, being pure bloods and, you know, from a eugenicist point of view, none
58:09
of us are pure blooded. None of us. I mean, I know
58:13
that, you know that. I presume he knows that. So why are these people allowed
58:17
to say this stuff? Why isn't anybody stopping them from saying this stuff
58:20
That is just not true. It's not in science, it's not in
58:25
fact nothing is challenged anymore apart from you other people who constantly fight and and build a
58:33
narrative of you know that we've got to be we've got to be it's about togetherness you know we're
58:38
trying to create a world you know just look what's happening in palestine in gaza and everywhere in
58:45
the world that we just seem to be going down this road of war and division uh and i think to answer
58:52
the question that prefaced this, that the point is some people do very well out of it
58:56
I'd never heard of Rupert Lowe, except for, I think he was chairman of Southampton
59:00
Football Club at some point, and now he's infamous, you know, and he's getting invited
59:04
onto Joe Rogan's podcast, so I think one of his children recently married a person of colour
59:10
so his grandchildren are going to be mudblood. Yeah. Just like Farage's, of course
59:16
I remember Farage sitting opposite me, telling me he hates people speaking foreign on trains, and then
59:20
somehow letting it slip that his own kids speak German at home? I have a, I have my parents are mixed, are a mixed marriage. I'm from a mixed
59:30
marriage. My husband is English. My children. So are you. Yeah. But I don't think I can call
59:36
myself that anymore. I was very proud to call myself British. I came from a country where
59:43
you know, rights aren't a norm. Okay. You don't get rights as a norm. I'm so proud of
59:49
this democracy, but I'm becoming more and more anxious and frightened that our democracy
59:55
is being, I mean, I read how they broke Britain, you know, how our..
59:59
Democracy is being shredded away, and we're standing idly by. Where can I go? Who can I join
1:00:08
Who makes me feel? James, you've got to start a political party
1:00:11
Well, they should already be there. And that is the point that's at the heart of everything you've said
1:00:17
is that there is an absence here from the very, very top of government
1:00:21
And I think what helps me is, what you help me do
1:00:27
is grasp the scale of the issue. it is not confined to a kid with a loud hailer
1:00:32
No. In Gosport. It is a spectrum upon which everybody sits. And of course, ultimately, it moves beyond ethnicity as well
1:00:44
It is 11, 16. I think Lo might have been talking about COVID
1:00:49
when he talked about pure blood. But, I mean, it doesn't really matter
1:00:54
It's such a weird phrase to use in almost any context. But credit where it's due
1:00:59
He has put his own skin in the game when it comes to repelling migrants
1:01:04
He once got very, very cross about a team of charity rowers
1:01:08
attempting to travel from Land's End in Cornwall to John O'Groats up in Scotland
1:01:12
And he posted on social media, dinghies coming into Great Yarmouth right now in capital letters
1:01:18
which displays, I mean, epic ignorance, quite spectacular lack of geographical knowledge
1:01:26
and weapons-grade idiocy. That's quite the hat trick. Thank you, Debrina. It's 11.17
1:01:33
James O'Brien on LBC. 90 minutes after 11. So, I mean, to carry Debrina's question forward
1:01:40
what should Andy Burnham be doing? You're prime minister of a country
1:01:45
There's a kid with a loud hailer calling for human beings to be drowned to death. Is that on your list
1:01:51
I mean, a genuine question. I'm pretty clear that it should be. what's he going to do
1:01:56
Wait for the authorities to take their course which probably will happen
1:02:01
in the context of the sort of grifters in chief but in the context
1:02:04
of the child what should happen there? Should social services be involved
1:02:11
I think so. Where's prevent? Where's the anti-radicalisation programme? You've got a kid there being encouraged
1:02:18
to incite murder or manslaughter literally change the skin tone a bit
1:02:28
change the context a bit and tell me where the where the spotlight would be
1:02:34
there's a child there calling for people who don't look like them
1:02:40
to be put to death in public with a loud hailer think of any other context
1:02:49
any other context at the moment of course this context is confined to this mode of transport
1:02:56
the so-called small boats. Please ignore the fact that the numbers are plummeting
1:03:02
But that changes. Everybody knows that. Anyone with even a cursory understanding of history knows that
1:03:09
You know, I do that Martin Niemöller poem quite a lot. He's a much more complex character
1:03:14
and a much less sympathetic character than that poem actually allows. But still, it makes an eternal point, doesn't it
1:03:21
They start with you, and I don't do anything because I'm not you
1:03:26
And then it comes around to you. It goes in stage. So, you know, first they called for the people in small boats to be put to death
1:03:34
and I didn't do anything because I wasn't a person in a small boat. And then where does it end
1:03:39
Because it never ends there. And this is where political correctness or wokeness
1:03:46
or whatever word you prefer to describe common decency, this is where it comes from
1:03:50
I didn't get this growing up. I didn't even get this when I started this job
1:03:54
I was susceptible sometimes to that sense of, oh, crikey, I think you've gone a little bit too far
1:04:00
Most of it was nonsense. You know, they've banned Bar Bar Black Sheep for fear of offending people of colour
1:04:04
and you'd sort of go, well, is it really going to offend? I mean, they seem to be a little bit hypersensitive
1:04:09
You turn on other people's radio programmes and you've got callers talking about playing the race..
1:04:13
Well, you've got presenters talking about playing the race car. It's not hard with white privilege
1:04:18
oozing out of your every pore to think you might be overreacting a bit there
1:04:24
But that's where it comes from. You can't have a bit of it
1:04:29
Because once you have a bit of it, you've got more of it. You're allowed to talk about people in hotels, repurposed hotels
1:04:38
You're allowed to talk about them as if they're subhuman scum. You're allowed to call for them to be put to death
1:04:44
You don't get attacked by the media for that. You get invited onto stage by Alison Pearson and Liam Halligan
1:04:50
both at one point on the Daily Telegraph. They invite you onto the stage to a standing ovation
1:04:55
when you have been talking about human beings in hotels repurposed to accommodate asylum seekers
1:05:02
as if, well, you've been calling for them to be burnt to death
1:05:06
and you get a hero's welcome from Daily Telegraph journalists on the stage at a party conference
1:05:11
of a party that was, at the time, I think, leading in the polls
1:05:15
Fast forward a year and a white British woman is getting beaten up in the middle of the same conference floor
1:05:21
You think those two things are unconnected? Then I've got a bridge you might be interested in buying
1:05:27
This is what happens when the dial is being turned up. A very clever person posted something on Blue Sky yesterday about why Farage is staying silent about this
1:05:38
Why isn't he coming out and condemning it? To which my response is pretty clear
1:05:44
You see sometimes who he is. You don't invite that woman onto the stage
1:05:50
at the Reform Party conference if you've got a problem with violence
1:05:55
You just don't. You don't make jokes about a woman being beaten up on the floor of your own conference
1:06:01
if you've got a problem with violence against women. You just don't do it. You don't laugh at that poor woman in Piddington, Rachel
1:06:08
who has been enduring some terrible things at the moment. We are in touch with her
1:06:12
We are offering our help and support, but there is another white British woman
1:06:16
coming under attack from people who claim that they're in the business of protecting white British women
1:06:21
From whom? Listen to this, from Lee, who lives in Gosport. I'm ashamed of the reaction in my town this week
1:06:26
I'd want you to know it's not all of us and it's not representative of the town. Unfortunately, reform got in and it's showing
1:06:33
Friends of my son had to be escorted through the protest in order to get home
1:06:36
They weren't being threatened by and were not scared of any migrants, James
1:06:41
they're scared of the flipping fascists of course they are oh we're not fascists
1:06:46
look we've got a poster to prove it oh and here's my child
1:06:50
chanting let them drown into a loud hailer just to really drive home the point
1:06:54
that we're not fascists at all unbelievable unbelievable and I guess the point of conversations like this
1:07:01
and shows like this and days like this for us is to join the dots
1:07:05
I can't do it on my own you join the dots there's no way this is a
1:07:10
coincidence there's no way one thing doesn't lead to the other one one thing doesn't lead to the next
1:07:16
um and then of course when you've assembled this tapestry of experience and and and and heartbreak
1:07:24
and disgust and outrage maybe maybe to carry de brina point forward you can begin the process the process of battling it But who the heck are we Where the government
1:07:36
Where's the prominent politicians? Where are you? Maybe you think it doesn't matter. Well, tell me why it doesn't matter
1:07:46
That a child is chanting, let them drown. That kid will probably be the guest of honour at next year's Reform UK Party Conference
1:07:52
And now, welcome to the stage. Ten-year-old Johnny... I mean, am I exaggerating
1:08:00
Am I exaggerating? Or is that perfectly feasible? Do you remember the footage
1:08:05
He does all his funny movements, Farage going, do you remember that child, that brave English child
1:08:09
calling out for refugees to drown in the... Well, I'm delighted to tell you
1:08:13
Here, welcome to the stage. Or would he leave it to Alison Pearson and Liam Alligan to do again
1:08:18
I don't know. But anyway, here's the kid that wants refugees to drown. Please put your hands together and let's pass a bucket round as well
1:08:25
because there's usually a little bit of fundraising about five minutes behind the public fascism
1:08:31
You think I'm exaggerating? Go on, look me in the eye, tell me I'm exaggerating. Let's burn them in their beds
1:08:35
Yep, welcome to the stage. You are a wonderful woman. What a hero. Let's drown them
1:08:41
What's the difference? What's the difference? This is the thing about the rules we all used to agree on
1:08:48
And the point about political correctness or wokeness or whatever words you prefer to describe common decency
1:08:53
is that none of it was allowed. And now I know. Now I get it
1:08:57
Now I get it. The columnists, the commentators, the presenters, the politicians who used to write
1:09:03
I hate it. Oh, I hate it. I hate the political. Why? What's the big deal? You're just not allowed to be a... anymore
1:09:10
You just have to try a little bit harder to be... Yeah, but I really, really need to be disgusting
1:09:16
This is a really big part of who I am. I want to be able to call black people the N-word
1:09:20
I want to be able to call all brown people the P word, regardless of what I feel, hideously, hideously constrained
1:09:27
by this social agreement that you're not allowed to do that anymore
1:09:33
Why the hell should I have to treat these humans as humans? Why should I have to treat these people equally
1:09:38
That's where it came from. I used to sit here going... I used to s, actually. You'd hear someone going on about political greatness
1:09:44
and you'd think, you're just a silly old sausage. How does it affect you
1:09:48
Oh, well, you're not allowed to celebrate Christmas anymore. It's Winterville. I said, OK, I've looked into that story
1:09:57
It was a bloke on the council in Birmingham who thought they could save a few quid by leaving all the lights up
1:10:01
so that it would cover three or four different festivals, all of which still had their individual names
1:10:06
but they gave it a quick overall title of Winterville. There's absolutely no suggestion there
1:10:11
Well, you're not allowed to fly flags. No, you're not allowed to put flags up in council-owned property
1:10:16
whatever the flag is, because it's a communal area and not everybody who lives in the building
1:10:21
would necessarily want a flag in their foyer. Any more than, if you're driving through the Midlands at the moment
1:10:26
anybody would want tatty, broken, dirty, half-flags dangling from their local lampposts
1:10:33
which is happening everywhere. I didn't get it. I didn't get it
1:10:37
I didn't get the thing. And then it happened with Woke. It came back again because they'd failed
1:10:43
They'd failed to get rid of political correctness. no, we're still not allowed to be racist, lads
1:10:48
They've bloody won, those politically correct metropolitan elites. Let's call it something else and try again
1:10:55
I don't know. It's for historians to work out how big a role the transgender hatred played in this part
1:11:02
But you just chip away at times. You get permission to talk about some human beings
1:11:06
as if they are subhuman or disgusting or not deserving of the most basic protections
1:11:12
Donald Trump leads the way and then suddenly they're shooting people on the streets of the United States of America
1:11:17
for being a bit too brown. That's what happened. Political correctness worked
1:11:23
Kept people safe. Kept the racists in their boxes. So they invented wokeness
1:11:28
They gave it a new name. And they used transgender people as a lever
1:11:32
to open up the ancient hatreds, which now are being directed at absolutely everybody
1:11:36
to the point where you've got children calling for human beings to drown
1:11:40
And you've got a woman calling for human beings to be burnt to death in their beds
1:11:43
and cheered onto stage by the Daily Telegraph journalists, Alison Pearson and Liam Halligan
1:11:49
while Nigel Farage sits there rubbing his thighs. And you've got a woman being beaten up
1:11:55
on the floor of their party conference 12 months after they gave a hero's welcome to the criminal
1:12:01
And you think it's not linked? You still think it's not linked
1:12:06
I've got two bridges that you might like to buy. Here's Dominic Ellis with your headlines
1:12:10
James O'Brien on LBC. 11.33 is the time. I did warn you that I was perfectly happy to conduct this conversation alone
1:12:19
but I didn't know that that last little outburst was coming down the track
1:12:24
So my apologies if you are waiting to talk to me, especially Caroline, who's been on hold for far too long
1:12:29
Caroline in Milton Keynes, what would you like to say? Hello, hello, James. Yeah, so I have taken a child, an young child, on protests
1:12:39
Just to put that into context, So your earlier call of Charlie, your designating safeguarding Lee, doesn't get too upset
1:12:47
It's completely different from what we're seeing now. I've taken a child, a young child, onto Extinction Rebellion protests, onto Stop HS2 protests
1:12:58
And while I've been listening, I've been kind of reflecting, what made that okay for me
1:13:03
What makes what I'm hearing today completely sickening to my stomach? Yes. Yes
1:13:08
And it's something that has gone through what lots of calls have had to say
1:13:13
and that's about humanity. Where has the humanity gone? Well, I mean, most obviously, you're on protests designed to save lives
1:13:21
Exactly. And that is the difference. But, I mean, according to these so-called patriots
1:13:30
you know, they want to save lives, but they want to save certain lives. They want to save certain lives
1:13:34
They want to save the lives of the people who think like them and look like them. Well, they don't, though
1:13:39
Well, do they? No, they don't. No, they don't. They just want to be confident that the only people
1:13:43
who are going to be attacking them also look like them and think like them. There's no protection of women involved in a party
1:13:49
that cheers on an attack upon a woman. There's no... As long as it's our people doing the attacking
1:13:55
they're absolutely fine with it. I think a third of the men arrested during the Farage riots
1:13:58
had come to the attention of the authorities for domestic abuse. Where save our women there
1:14:03
Which women? Who's saving them? I mean, I was verbally attacked and physically intimidated
1:14:09
by a bunch of these so-called protest patriots when I was walking down my tour one day
1:14:14
I was oblivious to them. I was just walking down, going towards Westminster
1:14:18
with my Extinction Rebellion flag. I was minding my own business and I was absolutely harangued by this group of men
1:14:27
And I just stood there thinking, my God. Because of your T-shirt? Because of the Extinction
1:14:32
Yeah. Right. And for no other reason. well, it was my Extinction Rebellion flag
1:14:37
I was called a dirty this, that, and the other, and all kinds of really horrible things
1:14:42
And it was incredible to me, and as you say, so-called protecting our women
1:14:47
But in this case, so-called protecting our children. I think you're absolutely right that there is no protection of children
1:14:54
if that is the position that they coming from To do that to a child is abusive And I think the thing is you know when we went on to Extinction Rebellion protests when we went on to the Stop HS2 protests
1:15:05
we were coming from a place of non-violent direct action. And we were trained in, as adults, in non-violent direct action
1:15:12
We were trained as to what it is to be a peaceful protester. To have the protest, to have the integrity, to have the principle
1:15:18
but it is not directed against another person, another individual. and I always had it within me
1:15:25
and I hope and I think I did instil that within the child that I took along
1:15:31
that this is not about the HS2 worker on the other side
1:15:35
of the fence. They are a man with a family to feed, to have
1:15:39
respect. This isn't about you know, the people on the opposing about the police even
1:15:45
when you go to an Extinction Rebellion protest about the person on the opposite side of the argument
1:15:49
I mean this is the classic isn't it? I haven't seen it yet
1:15:53
Some people pretending that there is a sort of both sides element to these conversations or what
1:15:59
the closest I've got is, well I'll share that with you shortly, but the
1:16:03
desperation some people feel when they sense the shame creeping up on, oh my god, I'm part of this problem
1:16:09
Well, hang on a minute, what about the lefties? Do you see, I mean, that, and..
1:16:13
Oh, but we are the fascists, of course. As a lefty, I am now being referred
1:16:17
to as a fascist, which is incredibly ironic. But, I mean, you're absolutely right
1:16:28
We are where we are. With a child is sickening beyond... And it speaks to something much bigger
1:16:36
That's the point that's coming across today. Whether it was the caller who reminded us of the moment in Cabaret
1:16:43
where everybody realises what's coming in the space of a single song
1:16:48
in that Canda and Ebbe. Is it Canda and Ebbe, that musical? I know that it's based on Christopher Isherwood's work
1:16:53
and he knew what he was writing about as well. And then you've got that scene in Schindler's List
1:16:58
as Jewish workers are being relocated and she calls out goodbye Jews
1:17:04
When a child does it, it's proof that things have got really big
1:17:09
That's why the woman on stage at the Reform UK conference leads to, doesn't land as hard as a child with a loud hailer
1:17:20
And that's why, you know, it would be the children next. Caroline, have a good day. Thank you
1:17:24
Carl's in Boston. Carl, what would you like to say? Hi, James. Lovely to speak to you again
1:17:29
Right, well, let's see. It's early days. Go on, what's on your mind? So basically, I grew up in a very small village
1:17:37
I was bullied at school for the colour of my skin. and I mean a lot of the bodies that was bullying me in school
1:17:45
they didn't understand and it was more the parents pushing the ideological views onto their children
1:17:52
Was it though? I mean, crikey, I'm not challenging or questioning your experience
1:17:56
I mean, maybe this is evidence of me being an idiot, I don't know
1:18:01
but at school anybody who stands out gets targeted and it could be for any reason
1:18:07
It could be ginger hair or spectacles. I'm not suggesting for... right yeah yeah but it's not necessarily evidence of racism that they're going to carry out into
1:18:15
their adult lives no absolutely not and this is the point i was making sorry um a lot of the guys
1:18:21
that was actually doing it in school turned out to be my best friends yeah um in later life and
1:18:27
this is just the view you know that nobody is born this way nobody's born to hate other people
1:18:34
etc. Nobody's born to discriminate it's almost what you see, what you hear
1:18:40
from older people especially. Also you want their approval so that kid with the loud hailer in
1:18:46
Gosport probably feels more loved by his dad or she feels more loved by her dad in that moment than she has
1:18:52
done all year. Absolutely right yeah. That's heartbreaking. And it is. It's a
1:18:58
tragic state of affairs but this is the way the country is going
1:19:02
And, you know, I'm a born-again believer in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour
1:19:07
Thank you, God, for that. And, you know, I believe that if these groups
1:19:14
these factions say that they're Christian, that, you know, they're going on the Christian values
1:19:20
it's not true. No, they're not. Because Jesus' way of life was not hate
1:19:25
If only there was a big old book we could read to check out what Jesus had to say on various subjects, eh
1:19:30
Wouldn't that be helpful? I could go on that for hours on end, I'll be honest with you there, James
1:19:35
Yeah, me both. And that caller in the Isle of Wight, the woman standing, I'm a Christian, I've got Christian values, and I want them to drown
1:19:41
I love it when they say let them drown. What chance does she go to? And this is the unfortunate side of things, you know
1:19:47
I get that obviously they probably hold God in their hearts, but essentially they're not following the path of Jesus Christ
1:19:54
They're doing quite the opposite. and Jesus said, you know, these prophets will come in sheep's clothing
1:20:01
and inside they are ravenous wolves. And it is totally true, totally true
1:20:07
because inside they have so much hatred and I can't understand why
1:20:13
We don't have that yet, actually. I know a couple of these clowns are claiming to be Christians
1:20:19
but we don't have that very well-funded, sort of weaponised evangelical Christian lobby that they have in the United States of America
1:20:26
They're trying to get toeholds in this country. I think it was Peter Gagan explaining to us the role that they've played in donations and the like
1:20:36
to political parties in this country and the sponsorship. And I think British politicians, I'm not going to say any names because I haven't double-checked
1:20:43
going and speaking at events in the States that are sponsored by these characters
1:20:47
and the lies about freedom of speech being compromised because of the exclusion zones put around family planning clinics
1:20:55
and abortion clinics. They are coming. But, of course, we don't have that yet
1:21:02
It's the epic hypocrisy of claiming to be doing Jesus's work while essentially acting in a way that is the polar opposite of his teachings
1:21:11
Thank you, Carl. God bless. Charlotte's in Macclesfield. Charlotte, what would you like to say
1:21:15
Hi, James. I wanted to respond to one of your callers earlier. She mentioned kind of white fragility
1:21:21
that she felt like white people were quite reticent. And I was aware in your phone that you had a lot of people of colour calling
1:21:29
And I think those of us who are white, we have such a moral responsibility to not be the silent majority
1:21:37
not quietly disapprove and do nothing. Like, it's really hard to know what to do
1:21:42
but that doesn't mean you do nothing. I think the fact that you're having this phone in makes me really happy
1:21:47
because I'm so horrified by the kind of, the level of supposed balance
1:21:53
that we get, even from the BBC. Do people know, though, do you think
1:21:57
Because I heard one BBC presenter yesterday, actually I can't talk about that case because it's live now
1:22:02
but I'm not defending anybody, I want to be absolutely clear about that
1:22:07
but I've been on a journey already today, I probably hadn't fully appreciated what I've chosen to call the spectrum
1:22:12
and the fact that pretty much every person of colour in this country knows that they're on it
1:22:17
So you've got the people crossing the channel in boats are here on that spectrum
1:22:21
But, you know, you've got a primary school teacher here or you've got that. It is a spectrum of racial hatred I don know that people realise that enough I don think it necessarily cowardice or failure I think it an ignorance
1:22:35
I think you have to be alert to it. I think, like, certainly, you know
1:22:39
I became more alert in around 2020 with the Black Lives Matter movement
1:22:45
I kind of, you know, when you make the effort to listen to the perspectives of people of colour
1:22:50
to listen to their life experiences, to read books... And that's still something
1:22:54
that still boils the blood of the kind of characters we're talking about. They still reach for Black Lives Matter
1:22:59
as something that was a terrible moment in Western history. Because the thing I think we're all a little bit lily-livered about
1:23:07
is saying that people, racist people, really love racism. It's not something that has been forced upon them
1:23:13
and they might be rescuable, but they bloody love it. It's why they hate political correctness
1:23:17
they hate Black Lives Matter, they hate wokeness, they hate anything, anywhere, that just says to them
1:23:22
being racist is bad. So they're trying to create a world where being racist is not bad
1:23:26
And Elon Musk has turned Twitter into a place where being racist is not bad
1:23:30
And some of these flash mob fascists are turning ports and RNLI stations into places
1:23:37
or the car parks at least, to places where being racist is not bad. That is what they're trying to do
1:23:42
And they're winning at the moment. And I think one of the things that's really hard is working out how do we best fight back
1:23:49
do we win the argument, get as angry as they are, demonstrate
1:23:54
which are things that I think are necessary at times, but equally, we want to pull people back
1:24:00
We want to try and get the people that don't love racism so..
1:24:06
Do you know what I mean? I wonder, though. I do know what you mean. But you get somebody saying
1:24:10
oh, no, I'm absolutely fine with my Muslim accountant, but these small boats really boil my blood
1:24:17
I don't know. If the spectrum's real... then they're subscribing to something pretty hideous
1:24:23
even if they're only in the foothills of it. And that's... I mean, you're absolutely right
1:24:28
That is the challenge, is to find the people in the foothills and lead them back down the mountain
1:24:32
The people at the very top of it, they're never going to change
1:24:36
They can't change, not least because their entire income depends upon keeping the grift alive
1:24:41
or indeed their political career depends upon keeping the racist lies afloat
1:24:46
Thank you, Charlotte. Here's a question for you. Which prominent Brexiter has put together a very powerful response
1:24:57
I presume it's a response, to Suella Braverman's nonsense about Englishness? Because this is, in a way, Charlotte's point
1:25:04
Charlotte reminded me of this. You can talk about a spectrum, and the beauty of a spectrum
1:25:08
is that 100 people can be on it who don't agree with each other, but they're all on a spectrum of, in this case, racism
1:25:16
But equally with Brexit, the idea that you can be in favour of Brexit
1:25:20
means that you hate foreigners or that you would agree with Suella Braverman about Englishness
1:25:24
is unfair, it's unhelpful. But I still think you're going to be very surprised
1:25:29
to discover which prominent Brexiter has put together probably the most powerful response
1:25:36
I've seen so far, certainly from the right wing of the room
1:25:40
to Suella Braverman's undiluted bilge about Englishness. And don't cheat, have a guess
1:25:47
James O'Brien on LBC. It is 10 minutes to 12, and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:25:56
where the conversation continues. But first, who do you think got the most votes
1:26:00
It's not Steve Baker, although from what I'm told about Steve Baker
1:26:05
it could have been, I think. I mean that as a compliment, by the way
1:26:10
but it's second-hand information. it's not Marc Francois although he would be well placed
1:26:19
I think with his heritage to point out that he is as English as the next
1:26:23
man with a French name it did so Nigel Farage actually but no none of these people
1:26:29
have come out to point out the idiocy of Sue Oda Braverman's
1:26:33
empty headed definition of Englishness it's not Daniel Hannah, I think Steve Baker's got
1:26:39
the second most votes actually and the most votes go, it's definitely not David Frost, Jason in Cornwall
1:26:45
It's definitely not Ian Duncan Donuts. It's Jacob Rees-Mogg, who has, you know
1:26:51
been proved wrong about almost every single aspect of Brexit and he should certainly never be let off the hook for that
1:26:58
although the voters of Somerset have kind of handed him his comeuppance for that
1:27:04
Credit where credit is due. He has recorded a very powerful riposte to Suella Braverman's ludicrous attempts to rob people of their national identity by telling what she means brown people
1:27:17
But unfortunately, the criteria she deploys would also apply to, for example, Jewish people that they can't be English
1:27:25
If, for example, their parents came here from overseas or their grandparents came here from overseas
1:27:30
and it is Jacob Rees-Mogg a reminder actually on a theme of what Charlotte was addressing
1:27:36
of not lumping everybody but remember it's a spectrum as Mike Batt almost wrote
1:27:42
remember it's a spectrum and you might be able to reach the people
1:27:46
on the lower end of it even as you despair at the evilness of the people near the top
1:27:50
Stuart is in Sevenoaks Stuart what made you pick up the phone? Well you just reminded me
1:27:56
and you just made me laugh about remember it's a spectrum Oh, you got it, did you
1:28:01
Well, you and me are the only people who got that joke, Stuart. Go on
1:28:05
I was giggling away. No, what I wanted to say was, what we need to do here is we need to stop being polite to these people
1:28:14
Yeah. And, you know, we need to call them out. And I wanted to share with you something that happened last year
1:28:23
and it's happening again this year. Right. So I have a group of friends that go back 40 years
1:28:31
and we meet every year at Christmas time. We've done it every year for 40 years
1:28:39
and we have a great time, and, you know, we have a dinner, and we have a laugh, and, you know, they are my oldest friends
1:28:48
Last year, the conversation went all reform. and some absolutely abhorrent opinions came out from those people
1:28:59
that I've known and loved for 40 years. That's tough. And I tried to be like you and I asked for the evidence
1:29:07
and, you know, I challenged the same thing, but they were supporting and advocating for that lady
1:29:13
that called to burn migrant hotels and they were saying horrible things about actually things
1:29:21
that relate to some people in my family. Really? And, yeah. Oh, but they didn't mean you
1:29:27
They didn't mean them. They don't mean them. That's what he said. We don't mean you. But, and now we're coming round
1:29:34
and the email started this week. Right. When are we arranging the next dinner
1:29:40
Oh, dear. And I've had to make a decision. I'm not going
1:29:44
Really? I can't break bread with those people anymore. Now knowing what lies underneath
1:29:51
And will they know that? Will they know why you're not there? Well, they will if they're listening to this, but..
1:29:57
True, but it's... To be fair, it's unlikely, mate, from what you've told us about them
1:30:04
Well, yeah, you never know. No, you do never know. You do never know. And I... They certainly see the clips. They certainly see the clips on Facebook and elsewhere
1:30:11
I hope I don't go viral. But I said to my other half, and, you know, this is what I mean
1:30:20
I'm just going to be polite and I'm going to say we can't make it. Right. Right? But if anyone asks me directly... Yeah
1:30:26
If anyone said, I'm going to have to tell them. and I've got to be prepared to do that
1:30:32
because I won't... The only way we stop this is by people saying it's just unacceptable
1:30:40
You know, I won't break bread with you. I won't... You know, I won't do that
1:30:45
You go there second, as you say. I mean, because there's a very nice clip
1:30:50
doing the rounds at the moment of two young Liverpudlians just insisting that some online provocateur..
1:30:57
I don't know quite how it happens because he's on a screen and they're in the street, but they're just saying, get your phone out, do the research
1:31:03
He makes some claim about Scottish towns, I think, being overrun by immigrant miscreants
1:31:10
And there's a wonderful pair of people, a lad and a young lady, and they refuse to let him carry on until he provides the proof
1:31:16
They just don't let him carry on until he provides the proof. And once you've tried that and failed
1:31:21
then I think you cut the umbilical because you receive the irrefutable evidence
1:31:27
that these people are choosing to believe something that is not true
1:31:31
that is either not true or is not supported by the evidence or both
1:31:35
But it's a tough one, mate. It's a tough one for you. It breaks my heart. It breaks my heart
1:31:41
These are my oldest friends. And it breaks my heart almost as much as hearing about the child with the megaphone
1:31:49
Yeah, of course it does. You know, they've got kids. And, you know, I was reminded that that same lady
1:31:58
that called for the burning of the migrant hotels was a childminder
1:32:03
Yeah. And this is how it propagates. Of course it is. And we have to stop it
1:32:09
We have to say, this is not acceptable. I won't stand for it
1:32:16
And if I pay the price... I won't look the other way while you do it
1:32:20
What do you think has happened to them? I mean, some of the, your answer might be obvious
1:32:24
but you know these people and I don't. What do you think
1:32:28
It's radicalisation. Yes. They, you know, they're scrolling through and they're seeing this stuff
1:32:34
You know, one of them, a few years ago, one of them at the Christmas get-together
1:32:41
was talking about their trip to Auschwitz and how moving it was
1:32:46
No way. And then, you know, less than 10 years later, they're talking about
1:32:52
it's alright to burn migrant hotels they don't see it and I raised it
1:32:59
I raised that with them you drew the parallel, did you? I drew the parallel, I said hang on a minute
1:33:04
you know and they, you know, that's different it's not that bad, it's not the same
1:33:11
but the thing with the child with the megaphone kind of makes me think
1:33:15
we are so very close now let them drown Or let them burn
1:33:20
I mean, they'd already gone to the let them burn space and still the Auschwitz parallel didn't land
1:33:24
Well, we don't really mean it. So did the RNLI conversation last week, Stuart
1:33:29
I don't know if you were listening. Yeah. I just did wonder whether the people shouting let them drown
1:33:34
if they were actually there. This is before more recent events possibly answered the question
1:33:40
for at least some of the people involved. Would you actually put your hand on their head
1:33:44
and hold them under the water? or would you lift them out
1:33:48
I don't know. That's the question, isn't it? Maybe in their own minds they don't really mean it
1:33:53
until, of course, they do. But the Auschwitz thing is the most powerful thing
1:33:57
I've heard today, actually. That simple juxtaposition of events. How the hell do you think that happened
1:34:03
Because it didn't start with the camps. And one step on that road, of course
1:34:08
was the relocation of Jewish workers into ghettos long before the death camps were up and running
1:34:16
And that was the other thing that Al had mentioned in his text
1:34:20
about the scene in Schindler's List where that little girl is going, bye-bye Jews
1:34:25
That's where it goes. What can we learn from that? I don't study history enough to know
1:34:34
what the rest of the German population were doing when all that was happening
1:34:40
But maybe it wouldn't happen again if just enough people said, I'm not having this
1:34:47
Never again. Yeah. Never again. And of course, I mean, the other lesson of history is that
1:34:54
and it's a terrible thing to say, but the resistance wasn't particularly great
1:34:58
It's a sort of mythology that's grown up around it. And the numbers were not significant
1:35:04
Now, you can also make the case that the full extent of the Nazi atrocities were not known to the average German
1:35:10
but that means you weren't asking enough questions. Where are those trains going
1:35:14
Anyway, I used to worry about Godwin's law, you know, the idea that in any conversation online
1:35:20
eventually someone will mention the Nazis. But if you're talking about children with loud hailers
1:35:24
calling for refugees to drown or a woman being cheered onto a stage
1:35:29
at a political party conference after calling for refugees to be burnt alive in their beds
1:35:34
then I don't think it is a leap to start talking about the Nazis. And they still hate that
1:35:39
they're not mad about being called racist, but they're getting much more comfortable with it
1:35:43
They still hate being called Nazis, which is, I suppose, something. So if you do see a Nazi today
1:35:48
be sure to call them a Nazi. It's 12 noon, and you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:35:53
and somewhat improbably, it's Mystery Hour next. James O'Brien on LBC. It is four minutes after 12
1:36:02
and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Listen, Mystery Hour next
1:36:07
And I'm as excited as you are to hear Liz Truss in our news bulletins
1:36:12
But, I mean, she's essentially a welfare claimant, isn't she? Herself. The amount of income she gets by dinner
1:36:19
having been prime minister for ten minutes, is obscene. I think Kemi Badenow should introduce a law
1:36:25
that bans her from spending any of it on wine or gambling. But I suspect that they might be a far, far off..
1:36:34
Keith Cross now. I've upset everyone. I haven't actually, I've only upset Keith. Keith hates nothing more than anything from the news agenda bleeding in to the final hour of Thursday's programme
1:36:45
Because the final hour of Thursday's programme is Mystery Hour. I nearly said pure, but that now has quite unpleasant connotations after the last two hours, doesn't it
1:36:56
So what is Mystery Hour? Mystery Hour is your weekly opportunity to achieve the sort of satisfaction not ordinarily available anywhere else on your radio
1:37:05
Someone rings in with a question, quite possibly you, and somebody else rings in with an answer
1:37:10
also quite possibly you. Although you need rather more qualifications to provide an answer than you do to provide a question
1:37:17
And the question can be anything. It can be a who, a why, a what, a where, a when, a whither, even the occasional wherefore
1:37:23
not to mention whence Any other interrogative pronouns spring to mind And the subject matter is equally unspecified It can be something quite tricky scientific
1:37:36
Someone will need a real degree of expertise to answer, or indeed a real degree in expertise to answer
1:37:42
while others may just be something that you saw yesterday and thought
1:37:46
what the heck is that all about? And why have I never wondered before? That's the way that it goes
1:37:51
0345 6060 973 is the number that you need. And then when you've heard somebody else ask a question and you think to yourself, I know the answer to this, then you also are required to ring in and share your answer
1:38:05
There are two rules. The first is that you can't look anything up, obviously
1:38:10
I don't even know why I mention this anymore. When we started about 49 years ago, there was just a very occasional moment where you could tell someone had looked it up on Wikipedia
1:38:19
Now, I get that. It's exciting to be on the radio. I didn't used to get it. I was a bit dismissive
1:38:25
But don't, please. Don't cheat, because it makes a mockery of the entire exercise
1:38:30
It really does. Just wait until there's a question that you do know the answer to, and then you can get on the radio
1:38:34
Or a little harder to get on with a question than it is with an answer, but still worth trying
1:38:39
Your patience will be rewarded. A judicious use of redial, I used to say
1:38:43
every Thursday at about this time. So that's rule number one. I don't think I can remember rule number two
1:38:50
What was it? Something about roads, cars, motoring. I don't like motoring questions
1:38:54
But that's changing. Hey, guess what happened to my column in the paper yesterday
1:38:58
So I told you it was about Jim Ratcliffe, who is a part owner of Manchester United
1:39:04
and they stuck it in the sports bit. Later in the day, after it had gone sort of semi-viral online
1:39:11
the iPaper sports desk put it out as one of their own
1:39:14
with a hashtag Jim Ratcliffe. So I've made the sports desk now. I've made the sports pages, lads
1:39:19
And that prompted many of you to respond by pointing out I'll probably be doing motoring
1:39:23
I'll probably do a motoring journal. Would you read my motoring journalism? If they gave me a car to drive, like, to try, would you read, would you
1:39:31
I was given a car once. Do you know this story, Keith? I was given a car once by Vauxhall
1:39:37
I was just waxing lyrical on the radio about how nice the Vauxhall Zafira looked
1:39:43
I don't have a petrolhead gene. That's why we don't do motoring questions. But I really like it
1:39:47
The kids were young, and it just looked like the perfect car. I never really wanted an SUV
1:39:52
the bars in the front are too high and all of that malarkey but a Vauxhall Zafira it was called
1:39:57
and it just looked like the perfect car to go on holiday in with the kids in England so they sent
1:40:04
me one they the press office got in touch why is Eleanor asking me to keep saying Vauxhall Zafira
1:40:10
is it not am I pronouncing it wrong or are you just laughing at the um the the prosaic nature
1:40:17
of the car, the free car I got lent by. Well, it gets worse. I know I could have asked for something a bit fancier
1:40:23
but I'm not lying when I say I haven't got the petrol gene. I really wanted a Vauxhall Zafira to go on holiday
1:40:29
And we were heading down to Devon in it, and they lent us one. They got in touch. I didn't ask
1:40:33
They got in touch. And I took it home, parked it outside my house, and it got nicked
1:40:42
Like, literally that day. I don't think it was even in the house overnight
1:40:45
My sister came round and I said, oh, you'll see, there's Zafira outside
1:40:49
And she said, there's no Zafira outside. I just looked out the window and it had gone
1:40:54
The car, they'd nicked it. I had to phone the press office and I didn't know them
1:40:58
I didn't have a relationship with them. I didn't have history. I had to phone them up and say, I'm really sorry
1:41:06
That car you lent me for free for a week to go on holiday to Devon in, it's been stolen
1:41:11
Luckily, we hadn't packed it up, which we would have done if we were better organised
1:41:15
so I don't know how they stole it Keith I honestly don't know
1:41:18
do I know? it's a while since I've told this story I think we were bringing
1:41:25
stuff into the house and we might have left the key on the little bit on top of the radiator
1:41:29
when you come in do you know what I mean? like the little shelf above the right
1:41:33
and they might have just crept into the house and nicked the key anyway, they nicked it
1:41:37
that was the beginning and the end of my motoring journalism experience
1:41:43
I essentially got given a Vauxhall Zafira and I gave it away by accident
1:41:47
to the local ne'er-do-well that's the end of today's motoring corner should we get mystery out
1:41:54
no, quick bit of business board game, board game, boardy boardy board game
1:41:58
my favourite contribution of the day will receive a mystery hour game
1:42:02
either the board game or the travel edition it's in a tin
1:42:07
full terms and conditions are at lbc.co.uk and if you want to buy a game
1:42:11
and why wouldn't you then you can go to mysteryhour.co.uk. There are currently two phone lines free
1:42:18
I'm going to read, I think Cam speaks for everybody when they write, This is so Partridge
1:42:23
I love you, James. Please don't ever change. I've got you, Cam
1:42:28
I've got you. James is in Thayden Boys. James, question or answer
1:42:33
I've got an answer, James. Go on, then. I've always wanted to say that
1:42:38
Always wanted to say that. I'm so sorry. But no, seriously, I am first time caller, long time listener
1:42:46
Long time listener. But I'm curious, right? I've been building golf courses all my life and doing this
1:42:52
I've always wore jeans, denim and all that. And on the right hand side pocket, there's a little pocket
1:42:57
Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. What was it actually meant to design for? Because with waistcoats, you've got your pocket, which is your chains or your watches
1:43:07
But on the jeans or the denim, whatever you want to call them, there's a little pocket on the right hand one
1:43:13
Just wondered what it was actually meant for. I'm going to have a crack drawing on my experience in menswear
1:43:19
although I never sold any denim when I was working at Aquascutum of Regent Street
1:43:24
Go on then. I've just got the word change pocket stuck in my head somewhere
1:43:28
Bear with... Yeah. What did I just say? Bear with. Thank you
1:43:35
Your main pocket is cloth. It's linen, right? It's, you know, when you turn your jeans inside out
1:43:42
the main pocket is cloth. Yeah, yeah. So if you've got, I mean, either keys or change in your cloth pocket
1:43:51
you're going to punch a hole in it. Whereas in your little pocket
1:43:57
because it's denim all the way round, denim on denim, as it were
1:44:01
you can keep your keys or your change in there and it is never going to punch a hole in your pocket
1:44:06
yeah but would you wear a chain round your waist no not a chain change change
1:44:15
yeah it's alright because the chain you're right the fob pocket would go on a waistcoat
1:44:21
but I think it's where you keep either change loose change or
1:44:26
keys in a way that ensures that they won't make a hole in your pocket
1:44:30
yeah fair enough some people think it's for a condom but I think that's unlikely
1:44:37
Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, I do. I wasn't sure if it was from, like
1:44:41
because denim comes from, like, the Texas, and that is a rodeo thing, or you put a coin in there or something like that
1:44:46
I think it would be that. I'm going to leave it on the board, because there'll be someone who probably knows a bit better
1:44:51
I mean, when you said, it said on the screen that you worked in denim
1:44:54
I thought that that was your I thought you worked in denim I didn realise you just worked in denim Like I work in trousers but I don work in trousers I work in trousers most days Yeah no they just hard wearing and I always on my knees
1:45:08
You and me both, mate. What is the golf, hang on, before you go, you say you design golf courses
1:45:15
Yeah. That's a fun job, isn't it? It can be, and I also redesign them and rebuild them
1:45:21
Lovely stuff. Reshape them, reshape them. Okay, yeah, I've got you. So from a par three, we'll take it to par four
1:45:28
and that sort of stuff. Nice work. I like that, especially in the summer months
1:45:33
James, lovely question and indeed answer. 0345 6060 973, the little pocket on your jeans
1:45:39
Definitive only, remember. That's why I ask for people's qualifications. I've always thought it was for this
1:45:45
That's fine. I'll do that. You provide the definitive answers, please. Luke's in Edgeware. Luke, question or answer
1:45:51
Hello, Luke. It is a question, please, James. Carry on. Why do people say ow when they are initially hurt
1:45:59
Have we ever done... So I'm just going to have a quick word with Keith, Luke. Talk among yourself
1:46:03
Have we done this before? I don't remember ever doing this before. I love it when that happens
1:46:07
So, yes. Ow! Ow! Did they do... You stub your toe and it's ow
1:46:13
Keith's offered to come in and punch me in order to test this theory, but I think I can do a fairly good impression of someone who's just been... Ow
1:46:20
Does it happen in all cultures? You know how in some cultures they nod their head for no
1:46:24
and shake their head for yes? Do we know that, does everybody, regardless of language or geography
1:46:29
does everyone go, ow? I have no idea. I like it. We will find out. Why do we say ow
1:46:35
Does everyone say ow? Why is it ow? Is it learned behaviour
1:46:40
Or is it a reflex? If you never met another human being and you got hurt
1:46:46
would you go, ow? Even if you couldn't speak any English language at all
1:46:50
12.15 is the time. Two lovely questions on the board, and there's only more to come
1:46:54
James O'Brien on LBC. 12.16 is the time. I like this from Dan
1:46:59
James, if you like a Vauxhall Zafira, then please look up a Fiat Multiplar. And if you like that, then never do motoring journalism again
1:47:07
I think we're pretty safe, mate. Well played. Colin's in Corby. Colin, question or answer
1:47:13
Hello, James. It's a question, please. Carry on, Colin in Corby. Right
1:47:18
But as you know, we have control of most of our muscles, don't we, in our body
1:47:22
Yes. Why is it that when we chew food, our tongue seems to go in autopilot
1:47:29
In other words, we don't think about what we're doing with our tongue. It seems to go around, push food around, all on its own
1:47:36
without us even thinking about it. Why is that? That's a nice wry chuckle at the end there, Colin
1:47:44
Well. Well. I mean, do I understand the question? I mean, what else is it going to do
1:47:51
Well, no, but it does it without thinking. We're not actually consciously moving our tongue around
1:47:56
But what else is it going to do? Your mouth is full of food, man. It's got to go somewhere
1:48:01
I know, but is it the brain that is controlling the tongue
1:48:05
Because the tongue moves around, sloshing the food around. When we're not thinking about it, are we
1:48:12
You know what I'm saying? Well, I mean, I understand what the words mean
1:48:15
I want you to imagine a cement mixer. Oh, yes. Have you got that in mind now
1:48:22
Yeah, very similar, yes. Okay, now put a spade in the cement mixer, okay
1:48:29
Yeah. And now let go of the spade. Let go of the spade. No
1:48:34
What's happened? What's happened? No, no, no. You can't say no. It's stationary, isn't it
1:48:40
Look, think of it my way, right? We're chewing a sandwich. We're walking along the road
1:48:45
Hang on, I just want to do a quick chat. I just want to ask, how many people are now doing this
1:48:49
How many people are now chewing, even though they've got... Well, I am. I am, Colin. I am
1:48:54
Right, you're chewing a sandwich and walking along. Oh, no, no, you can't be walking along
1:48:59
My mum hates that. Absolutely hates eating in public. You're standing at a bus stop
1:49:03
All right, then. OK, and you're chewing your sandwich. Still in public. You're in a cafe. OK, I'm in a cafe, right
1:49:09
Yeah, chewing a sandwich. I'm sitting on the chair, chewing a sandwich
1:49:13
I'm reading the paper. Is that allowed? Yes. my tongue is moving around my mouth
1:49:20
pushing food from side to side without me thinking about it happening
1:49:26
I don't know that it is. I think it is. Well, yeah, but it just is
1:49:31
Yeah, but so the brain is... No, because if you engaged your brain
1:49:35
you would be able to make your tongue do something else. So your tongue is just a..
1:49:39
It's a victim of... It's thinking on its own, you're saying. No, of course it's not thinking on its own
1:49:46
It's moving as a consequence of the chewing. But it knows where the pieces of food are to move them around
1:49:53
Well, it's a mouth, isn't it? They're hardly hiding. Oh, OK. Well, you know
1:49:57
So, hang on. In a sentence, what's the question? In a sentence, what's the question
1:50:02
The question is, how does the tongue know how to move around the mouth
1:50:08
without us telling it? Like we would an arm, lift an arm or move a leg
1:50:13
That's a long old sentence, Colin. Oh, OK, then. We'll skip that one and go on to the next call, then
1:50:19
There we go. How does the tongue know? How does the tongue know stuff
1:50:23
0345 6060 973. Thank you, Colin. Remember, as I bid farewell to Colin and Corby
1:50:29
then there is a phone line free for you. And there it goes. Jonathan's in Tower Hill
1:50:32
Jonathan, question or answer? It's a question. Carry on. When you find a dead fly in the bathroom
1:50:39
what is it actually died of? Because there's water there, There's probably enough bacteria there for it to live on
1:50:45
Just wondering, has it just bashed its head on the mirror too many times? It's something I've wondered for about 60 years
1:50:51
Never found an answer. It'd just be old age, wouldn't it? I don't know, because, I mean, it wasn't there the day before, and then..
1:50:58
I mean, that's how age works. It's a day older. That last day was the straw that broke the flies back
1:51:06
I thought flies had probably more longevity than that. But you don't know how long it's been alive when you find it dead in your bathroom
1:51:15
It could have been alive for 100 years. You only notice it when it's dead. Well, it's been coming up
1:51:21
I think it will be a form of old age. I mean, is it specific to bathrooms, or do you mean any dead fly
1:51:28
No, because you tend to use pesticides possibly elsewhere in your house
1:51:32
but not necessarily in your bathroom. But a fly has died of natural causes, as far as we can tell
1:51:37
If you say so I'm not 100% sure about that So you think it might be, it could be deodorant
1:51:45
it could have got caught in a deodorant spray when you were doing your armpits Don't think so
1:51:50
What then, what would be an unnatural cause of a fly's death
1:51:54
You're going with knocked itself out on the mirror Possibly Is it
1:51:59
I don't know because they do tend to kind of whiz around So what do flies mostly dial
1:52:05
I like that question what do flies mostly die of? What's the most common cause of death for a housefly
1:52:12
That'll do. I love it. 21 minutes after 12 is the time
1:52:15
and Tom is in Gdansk. Tom, question or answer? Hi, James. Question
1:52:21
Carry on. Why didn all mammals including humans evolve like toalas and kangaroos to have a pouch for the baby No evolutionary benefit
1:52:35
But they look so cosy and warm and safe. Yeah, no, but there's no evolutionary benefit
1:52:42
It's to do with gestation periods as well, isn't it? I don't know
1:52:46
Yeah, I think it is. I mean, these questions aren't really questions. Because do you know what fascinates me
1:52:53
Why are our teeth so rubbish? what teeth teeth why haven't we evolved better mouth action no we're going back to colin and
1:53:01
corby's question now aren't we but teeth by now should you shouldn't get rotten teeth and toothache
1:53:07
and teeth falling out they should be like made of metal or something yeah that's true but yeah you
1:53:13
see all right well i don't mind my teeth well you're very lucky i don't mind my teeth much but
1:53:18
you know i'm a bit wary of pork scratchings at this point in my life i don't there's a few things i
1:53:23
probably won't do with my teeth that I would have done as a younger man. Your teeth
1:53:27
perish and they fail. So why haven't we evolved better teeth? That's true
1:53:33
And you're asking, why aren't we all marsupials? Why aren't we all... They're not mammals
1:53:37
they're marsupials. But they do look good, don't they? Yes, I would like a pouch to
1:53:43
crawl into at the end of the day, but it would need to be a very big marsupial
1:53:47
for me to fit in its pouch, wouldn't it? They're like a
1:53:51
baby pocket. They're perfect. I don't know when they learn to get out of the pouch
1:53:56
and sort of roam on their own, but why not? Well, because we're not marsupials
1:54:01
is the technical biological answer. But we're mammals. Yeah, but they're not
1:54:08
No, they are. No, they are. Yeah, they are mammals. They are mammals. They are. No, I know they are
1:54:13
I just said that. I don't know. Is the question not why do they have pouches
1:54:17
Isn't that the question? Yeah, okay. Why do they have pouches? Why do marsupials have pouches
1:54:25
0345 6060 973. Thank you, Tom. Can I read this one? I don't know
1:54:35
Can I read that? Can I say all the words in that message or not? There's one in the middle of it that's a little bit blasphemous
1:54:40
Are we okay? This is from Chris. Jeez, who's filtering these callers
1:54:46
How does your tongue know what to do? Question mark, exclamation mark
1:54:50
Christ on a bike, writes Chris. speaking for many. Aaron is in Rochester
1:54:56
Aaron, question or answer? It's a question, James. Carry on, Aaron. Why is the face we pull
1:55:03
when we've smelt something really bad one of the highest compliments you can play a musician
1:55:10
Oh, like a wince, almost. Like a wince. Like you've gone... And even, to be honest, even verbally
1:55:16
you can say, what a disgusting line. And it's actually a compliment. There's something about hearing something
1:55:21
and musician improvising, but it's an awesome phrase and you just want to pull a face like..
1:55:27
I'm doing it now for the benefit of people watching later on YouTube. I'm a musician and I do it
1:55:33
but I can't explain it. Is it concentration? Are we trying to concentrate even harder
1:55:39
on the thing that we love? Well, it feels like a reaction
1:55:46
I just did it again. Oh, I just did it again. It's like, yeah, you kind of wince when you hear it
1:55:52
It's not quite the same as a nasty. So a nasty smell for me would be this. And then a lovely bit of music would be..
1:55:59
My mouth is doing different things, but my face is clenching. There's something going on there
1:56:06
My tongue's doing whatever it wants. It's got a mind of its own. But if you isolate that face on its own
1:56:13
it looks like a face that's not approving of something. Base face, they call it
1:56:18
They call it bass face in some musical circles, I'm told, by Sam
1:56:23
I probably should have checked that. No, it is bass, bass face, bass face
1:56:27
You go like... What? Yeah, okay. So why do we pull the same face at the bass that we do at Nasty Smell
1:56:38
Yeah, or some kind of rejection. Because it's... And I think it's not just exclusive to musicians
1:56:44
There's possibly other areas of the creative arts that it happens to
1:56:49
I'm sure people do it listening to this. Wasn't that funny? How dare you
1:56:55
I've never done it. No, nor have I. As a musician, I've pulled it myself all the time
1:57:01
And there's even memes about it. Yeah, well, that's what I mean. It's bass face
1:57:06
Most of the memes are about bass players, but not all of them, obviously. And then the other one is called stank face
1:57:12
Did you know that? so why is bass face and stank face the same face? We didn't even have two new phrases
1:57:18
You didn't know either of these phrases, did you, Aaron? I didn't, actually. Nor did I
1:57:21
Bass face, stank face. Why is bass face the same face as stank face
1:57:26
We pull all sorts of contorted faces when we're trying to play the music as a bass
1:57:33
But when we hear it, I mean, as a musician myself, I still pull that face
1:57:37
I can't explain it. I've got no idea. Something to do with concentrating
1:57:41
but why would the stank face be the same as the bass face? Love, what do you play? I play, well, piano, mainly
1:57:46
Okay. And you do the face when you're playing the piano? Not when I play, but when I listen
1:57:51
Not when you're listening, but not when you're playing. No, and it's more to do with listening to an improvised phrase than..
1:57:57
But that's what floats your boat, isn't it? When I'm listening. Yeah
1:58:02
Yeah. Are you sure you're not doing it when you're playing? How would you know? How have you checked
1:58:07
I don't. I bet you do a bit. I bet you do a bit. or maybe a little
1:58:12
I mean, I certainly have a concentration face. Yeah, but that's not the same as bass face
1:58:18
It's not the same face as you pull when you hear something and you go, oh, that's bass face
1:58:22
Or maybe that's concentration face. Anyway, I think the parameters of the question have been well established now
1:58:27
during the course of this conversation, Aaron. I'll put it on the board
1:58:31
0-3-4-5-6-0-6-0-9-7-3. So we've got the... I can't read my own writing. The jeans pocket
1:58:39
Ow! Oh, the tongue. I can't read that one. The pouch and the face
1:58:45
What's that one there? The fly. Yeah, it does say fly. How can I write the word fly in a way that I can't read it
1:58:51
It's only three letters. Robert is in Saltburn by the Sea. Robert, question or answer
1:58:58
Afternoon, James. There's a question. Carry on. Right. Has British Sign Language been around long enough
1:59:04
to start developing regional accents? So would someone in Cornwall converse with someone from the Outer Hebrides
1:59:12
converse with them and say, well, where's your accent from? Because there are little nuances that have come in
1:59:16
I think it does. I mean, I'll need someone else to answer it
1:59:20
I know that you have dialects, which would make sense. Because if you're in an area of the country where
1:59:27
I mean, the great one is always the bread roll, isn't it? So, you know, it's called a balm
1:59:32
or it's called a cob, or it's called a roll, or it's called a... So I do know that it recognises dialect
1:59:38
So yeah, I think the answer is yes, but I'm not really qualified to go... I say that's more for like local words, isn't it
1:59:44
But in the actual British Sign Language teaching, could you identify someone from another region
1:59:50
of the UK by their sign-in? I think the answer is yes, but I've got absolutely nothing to back it up except a vague memory
1:59:56
of a previous Mystery Hour. Alright. We'll go with that. I like questions about sign language
2:00:03
Why do you think those of us with full hearing are so interested by sign language
2:00:10
I don't know. I genuinely don't know. I was looking at someone at a bus stop signing and just thought, you know
2:00:17
if he was talking to someone else in the UK, because I know there's American sign language and British sign language
2:00:23
but has it developed? And why would it develop regional accents? I get verbally, but..
2:00:28
No, me too. I'm 90% sure that you do get regional accents
2:00:34
but I can't remember how to prove it, so someone else will have to do the heavy lifting on that one
2:00:38
Nice one, Robert. 03456060973, if you can answer any of these. Amelia Cox has your headlines
2:00:44
James O'Brien on LBC. 33 minutes after 12, bass face is the listener, not the bass player
2:00:51
I've not heard the phrase before. I was quite a big raver back in the day, but it's when the bass kicks in
2:00:56
when the bass drops on a tune, and it wouldn't just have to be dance music, would it
2:01:00
It could be on absolutely anything. But when the bass comes in, your face goes
2:01:04
bass equals face, you go like, whoa. That is what Aaron was talking about
2:01:10
But as he pointed out, it's the same face, pretty much, as when you're disgusted by something
2:01:15
Why? What's going on there? Both involuntary reactions, maybe. We just didn't realise it
2:01:20
I like that question, but I will be slightly surprised if we get an answer. and that applies to quite a few so far this week
2:01:26
but you never know, do you? Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Speaking of raving, don't worry
2:01:31
I'm not going off on another tangent. Well, I am, but not for as long as the last one
2:01:35
It's really sad when you look at the racism that's on the rise and the sort of flash mob fascists
2:01:40
and all that kind of stuff and the brown shorts. So if they're round about my age or younger
2:01:45
and four, five years older, then they'd have been there for rave. That little window
2:01:50
when we actually did all love each other. and somehow they've managed to
2:01:55
bend themselves into vessels of hatred and rejection instead of the great summer of love in 88
2:02:03
when everybody loved everybody, anyway just an observation so I've joined one of those sites
2:02:07
I told you my Facebook was wholesome where you just get pictures of ravers
2:02:11
good lord we looked to state didn't we and still addicted to trying to see
2:02:15
if I can find myself in the background of any of the Hacienda shots
2:02:20
or the overnight like the big raves in Delamere Forest and places like that
2:02:25
or at Maximus at Love Ranch in Leicester Square. A couple of times I thought that's me
2:02:29
but there's no way I can be sure. I looked like everybody else did then. I even had a ponytail
2:02:34
Anyway, enough of that. Back to Mystery Hour. Molly's in Dublin. Molly, question or answer? Question, James
2:02:40
Carry on. So, you go to bed, you're sound asleep, and then you need to get up to the bathroom
2:02:46
Yeah. How does your brain know to wake up the body to go to the toilet
2:02:51
when you're sound asleep? Your bladder tells it. But how can your bladder tell your brain when your brain's switched off
2:03:01
Are you related to Colin? Are you related to Colin and Corby
2:03:06
Are you sure? Are you from the Irish branch of the family? So I went to bed last night, sound asleep
2:03:13
Six times I had to get up and I didn't lose a dribble. Oh, Lord above
2:03:19
We didn't need that little detail, did we, Molly? Honestly. Well, because your bladder, I mean, your bladder
2:03:25
the discomfort in your bladder wakes you up. Well, yeah, but okay, if I poked you with a stick
2:03:33
that would wake you up as well, wouldn't it? No, not me. Oh, yeah, but don't stop splitting hairs, woman
2:03:39
All right, I poked you with a needle. That would wake you up, wouldn't it? No
2:03:43
All right, if I slapped you around the face with an old kipper, That would wake you up, wouldn't it
2:03:49
Probably the smell of the kipper would more wake you up. So how does your brain... Okay, then the smell of the kipper would wake you up
2:03:54
So how does your brain know that there's a smelly kipper under your nose
2:03:59
It wouldn't, actually, because the way I see... The discomfort, the discomfort wakes you up
2:04:03
So the same reason why the sunlight might wake you up or a poke in the ribs if you're snoring might wake you up
2:04:09
or discomfort in the bladder area might wake you up. No. Yes
2:04:14
I'm not buying it. Well, it's just true. It's not even up for grabs, this one
2:04:18
Keith, round of applause. And your qualification, though. I've got a bladder and a brain
2:04:25
Which makes one of us. Thanks. You're very welcome. Not a dribble, honestly
2:04:31
You want me to leave it on the table? Eleanor's making an executive. Since when are you allowed to make an executive
2:04:36
I invented this game. My word is law. I am Mystery Hour God
2:04:42
All right, we'll leave it on the board. I'm obviously right what else is it going to be
2:04:46
your bladder is uncomfortable it wakes you up in the same way that if you rolled over onto a brick
2:04:50
or a pebble or something like that alright no round of applause for me
2:04:54
Molly take care thank you for being a good sport Tina's in Dover Tina question or answer
2:04:59
answer please James carry on Tina firstly long term fan and I just wish I could speak
2:05:05
as eloquently and passionately about everything you talk about as you do
2:05:09
oh bless you thank you it's just Keith you know says it all in my ear and I just parrot it out
2:05:13
Is he? Is that right? I need something like that. I'm just the looks. He's the Serrano de Bergerac
2:05:19
I'm the handsome young suitor. He's whispering it all in my ear, Tina. My son will be laughing his socks off
2:05:25
if he listens to this at work because he always says that there's a hierarchy in our family
2:05:30
where it's the dog and then my hero worship of you and then my husband and the children underneath
2:05:35
Oh, I'm honoured. I'm honoured. Thank you. I probably am different. Anyway, answer is for the sign language
2:05:42
question. Oh, yes. BSL is a language that's embraced in the UK and sign language is not
2:05:50
necessarily embraced all around the world. But in the UK, BSL is now the fourth recognised
2:05:58
language in the UK. And there are huge variations within areas, just like if we're speaking English
2:06:06
we have variations in our accents, different words that we use. So they could be a language difference
2:06:13
in that a hand sign is different Or it could be just a very slight change in a hand movement can make a difference So numbers can be different signs for food perhaps
2:06:27
all sorts of stuff can be very different. And that is like an accent as well as different words
2:06:32
and different gestures for different words. There is something like an accent
2:06:36
like a sort of digital flourish as it were. Yeah, it's almost like, it's like your deaf cultural accent
2:06:42
your cultural identity. So a different religious faith with deaf people in it
2:06:47
might have different signs or a different cultural minority or a different race or a different faith
2:06:57
or even young people who are deaf might make up their own signs
2:07:01
for their own young stuff. Like young people make up language that they know
2:07:06
that their parents aren't going to be able to recognize. And slang in that sense, bits of slang
2:07:11
Oh, absolutely, yes. Language involved as well. What are your qualifications? So I'm qualified to British Sign Language Level 3
2:07:21
of which there are six levels, and I work for the Royal Association for the Deaf
2:07:27
So I'm a support worker in the community with deaf people, and it's wonderful
2:07:31
Yeah, well, so are you. Well, great thing to do. How did you get into that, if you don't mind me asking
2:07:37
I always loved learning languages, even at school. Yeah. What do you mean even at school? You mean especially at school? That's where it starts usually
2:07:47
And I, yeah, I had the opportunity to travel a lot. Right
2:07:51
And then about eight or nine years ago, I just saw something with a taster session of it and thought, this looks interesting
2:08:00
And I was hooked and it made me make a complete career change into it
2:08:05
Wonderful. It's the best thing I've ever done. Well, apart from the kids, Tina
2:08:09
Apart from the kids, yeah. Thank you, yeah. And the dog. And the dog. Final question
2:08:14
Can you tell, if you watch someone else doing sign language, would someone, maybe you, maybe someone else
2:08:19
be able to say, oh, you're from Cornwall? Yes. I mean, possibly not myself
2:08:25
because I'm not qualified to such a high level, but certainly... If you were a real Uber
2:08:29
If you're at top level or interpreter level, then you'd be able to, definitely
2:08:33
Wonderful stuff. Have a round of applause, Tina, and thank you for the kind words as well
2:08:38
Bless you. Thank you. Lovely stuff. 12.41 is the time. Scott's in Chester
2:08:42
Scott, question or answer? It's a question, James. Can I just start as well
2:08:46
I absolutely love you, mate. What's going on here? Is there a bit of a..
2:08:51
Is that a butt coming? I grew up in a very right-wing house
2:08:55
My dad calls Farage Sir Nigel. He's not your biggest fan, but I am your biggest fan
2:09:01
That's lovely. I'm sure he'd love hearing me saying I absolutely love you
2:09:06
I love you too, mate. Where are we? What's the question? you can ask whatever you want now
2:09:11
I'm not going to take the mickey out of it in 100 years you've absolutely done me go on
2:09:15
I've already got the ball game as well so you don't need to put me in the mix
2:09:21
it's just about electricity so I'm from a mechanical engineering background and I know that
2:09:27
you can run everything on 110 volt America runs everything on 110 volt
2:09:32
why do we do everything on 240 volt? why is it more than double
2:09:36
if every appliance you've got can run on 110, why do we do it at 240
2:09:42
It just seems unnecessarily high. Well, I mean, I've never... I understand what you're saying, because I can count
2:09:51
I didn't know any of that. I didn't know that this country was a sort of outlier
2:09:54
when it comes to the... I think Europe is also... Mainland Europe, I think, is 240 as well
2:10:00
So it's not just us. But, I mean, so in engineering, in this country
2:10:05
We do everything on 110 volt. We don't use our... But if it's domestic, it's 240
2:10:10
Yeah. Well, that's fascinating. Yeah, yeah. But all of our equipment we use is all 110 volt
2:10:16
And in all the years you've been doing it, no one's ever been able to tell you why? I've asked multiple electricians
2:10:22
I thought you might have done. These are sparkies from the Wirral, so I mean, you know..
2:10:26
I don't know if anyone would know it. It'd be a sparky from the Wirral. All right, you're on. Why is our standard voltage 240
2:10:34
when we could run everything for $110, where we could run everything off $100, or when Americans are bringing it all in for $110
2:10:40
Even a kettle, even an American kettle. Yeah, but American kettles are a bit rubbish, aren't they
2:10:46
I think, yeah, I don't know if it's... I think I've done it. I think I've bloody solved it
2:10:50
It's kettles. It's all down to kettles, yeah. No, I mean it. It's all down to the kettles
2:10:54
You can't get a decent cup of tea in the States. They've all got coffee. Oh, no, they do make coffee. You can't get anything decent in the States
2:10:59
No, it's not good. You sound like your dad now, Scott. Be careful. No, sorry
2:11:03
I do like going there. I've been there many times. I'm very lucky. All right, you're on
2:11:07
So, what is it? Why is everything 240 volts in this country and 110 in the States
2:11:12
That is technical. I like it. Scott, thank you for the kind words, mate. Stay safe
2:11:18
Nick's in Haywood Seeds. Nick, question or answer? I'm in Clampton now. I was in Haywood Seeds
2:11:22
but we've moved to Clampton, so... Hang on, excuse me a second. Can we amend the records, please
2:11:28
Where are you now? Clampton. Clampton? Clampton, with a P. Plumpton with a P, like Trumpton, but with a P
2:11:34
Can we amend the records, please? Nick, is your name still Nick
2:11:39
My name is still Nick, yeah. Right, he's still Nick, but he's in Plumpton. All right, can we make sure that that..
2:11:44
Yeah, thank you. Carry on, Nick, in Plumpton. Definitely not Hayward's Heath. Perish the sword
2:11:48
Blooming Hayward's Heath. That's old news. Carry on, Nick. What's your answer
2:11:53
It's an answer about the pocket on a pair of jeans. Yes
2:11:58
So there's a lot of discussion back and forth within people who collect denim and denim heads and stuff
2:12:04
about what that pocket was actually originally for. And the idea of it being a coin pocket is a fairly new kind of idea
2:12:12
For a long time, it was referred to as a watch pocket
2:12:16
Yes. For keeping a pocket watch in. Before the wristwatch became commonplace
2:12:22
you'd have some sort of timepiece in your pocket. Even if you were a cowboy, you still needed to tell the time
2:12:26
So if you weren't wearing a waistcoat, you'd stick it in your jeans. But that not but as jeans were originally made for people that worked down mines The jeans started being made by Levi in the 1870s and other brands kind of around that time for mine workers
2:12:47
And those mine workers probably wouldn't have been able to afford a pocket watch. So it's believed that it was actually used to carry either matches or flint
2:12:56
for lighting the lanterns that they used when they were down the mine shafts
2:13:00
So history doesn't actually provide us with a definitive answer. No. But the best bet, the wisest theory
2:13:11
is that it would be... And then you wouldn't keep them in the main body of the pocket
2:13:15
because they'd be much harder to find. Yeah. Well, a lot of the original records for Levi's
2:13:21
were destroyed in the... I think it was the 1901 Earthquake and Fire in San Francisco
2:13:27
Have you seen it? Where a lot of the original Levi's documents got burnt down and destroyed
2:13:34
Some of the things were kept, but most of their early records were destroyed
2:13:39
So a lot of those things prior to that time, you know, we don't know about
2:13:44
So it's more guesswork, really. Oh, it's incredible. What are your qualifications
2:13:49
I worked at Levi's for about six, seven years, and I actually wrote a book about all the elements on denim
2:13:56
and all the stories that they tell from the back pocket stitching
2:14:01
the salvage line, all the different labels and hang tags. You literally wrote the book
2:14:09
Yeah, I wrote a book on it. Denim branded? Denim branded, yeah
2:14:13
Jeans wears evolving design details. That's it, yeah. We got to travel around the States, myself and my wife
2:14:19
we went to visit all the archives of Levi's, Wrangler and Lee
2:14:23
and we got to shoot photographs of all the archive pieces and we put together a book on sort of all the stories
2:14:30
behind the historical elements. That is so cool. Is your wife Jenny
2:14:34
Is Jenny your wife? Jenny. Yeah, Jenny's my wife. Co-author as well. She's listening now in the kitchen
2:14:39
Well, I should give her her full title then because the book is called Denim Branded, Jeans Wears Evolving Design Details
2:14:44
and it is by Nick Williams with Jenny Corpoos. Did I pronounce that correctly
2:14:48
Yep. I'm going to give you a Rayleigh Ota, mate, because, I mean, you wrote the book
2:14:53
It's incredible. Have you been sitting there waiting for this moment? I have
2:14:57
I have been listening to this for you. I'm waiting for a question on anything to do with denim to come up
2:15:03
And I heard it today, so I got straight on the turn. And here it is
2:15:07
Absolutely beautiful. I'm Ray Liotta, and you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
2:15:13
If you build it, they will come. You have to share it with Jenny, Nick, obviously
2:15:21
Yeah, will do. Nice one. All right, cheers. All right, cheers to you too. That's perfect. Absolutely perfect
2:15:26
James O'Brien on LBC. 10, 2, 1 is the time. Why do we say ow
2:15:32
Why do we say ouch when we hurt ourselves? How does the tongue know what to do when we're eating
2:15:37
What's the most common cause of death for a fly? Why do marsupials have pouches
2:15:44
Why do we pull a face when we're listening to bass or a bit of lovely music that's the same face
2:15:49
as when we encounter a bad smell? bladder, how do we get woken up in time to go to the toilet
2:16:00
And why are we all 240 volt in this country when they're 110 in the States
2:16:05
That'll do. Colin's in Liverpool. Colin, question or answer? It's an answer, James
2:16:09
Carry on, Colin. It's the electricity question. This is an easy one
2:16:14
So let me try and explain this, basically. So if you want to boil a kettle
2:16:19
if you want to boil a litre of water, you have to put a certain amount of energy into that water to get it hot
2:16:25
So that's the power that you need to put into it. Now, power is generated by electricity
2:16:34
and it's a combination of the voltage and the current. So power equals voltage times current
2:16:40
So to get a kilowatt of power, you have to have a certain voltage and a certain current
2:16:46
Now, in the US, traditionally, they've chosen to go with 110 volts
2:16:51
which means that you would need, what's that, about five amps to get a kilowatt
2:16:56
Yeah. Now, most of the rest of the world has gone with 220 volts
2:17:01
which means that you only need two and a half amps. Right
2:17:06
So the lower voltage means you need a higher current. Now, the issue with the higher current is current is what makes wiring hot
2:17:18
So if you've got, you know, if you run a long extension lead, you'll sometimes feel the wiring gets a little bit warm
2:17:23
because you're pulling a lot of current through it. So in the US, you're more likely to have wiring that runs hot
2:17:31
because you've got to have twice as much current. So cheaper but less safe
2:17:36
Not cheaper. It's not cheaper? I thought there'd be less metal in it
2:17:40
No. You need thicker wiring generally. Thicker wiring for the American one
2:17:47
so more expensive and less safe. Yes, and the danger is that's why the U.S. tends to have quite a lot of house fires, because wiring runs hot
2:17:56
But there's a trade-off, and the reason that the Americans chose the 110, I think, and I'm not actually sure about this
2:18:02
but 110 volts doesn't electrocute you. If you touch 110 volts, you'll get a mild buzz, but it won't shock you, but 220 does
2:18:12
So it's a trade-off. So we have wiring that's less likely to catch fire
2:18:19
but it's more likely to shock us. But we would get a nasty shock if the circumstances..
2:18:23
That's beautifully done. Qualifications? All sorts of things. I spoke to you about AR a couple of weeks ago
2:18:29
I'm an electronic engineer by trade. Well played, Colin. Have a round of applause on me
2:18:34
Lovely stuff. Thank you. Very nicely done as well. Dev's in Hillingdon. Dev, question or answer
2:18:39
I've got an answer for you, James. Come on then, Dev. So, I'm going to tackle the tongue question because that's a really simple question on Facebook, but it's really complicated
2:18:49
So basically when you born you got certain reflexes which are vital to life such as breathing such as swallowing and suckling for example Now all these movements require all these functions require the coordinated action of lots and lots of different muscles
2:19:09
And if you think about it, if a baby is born suckling milk, if it doesn't swallow properly
2:19:14
then, first of all, if it doesn't manipulate the milk in its mouth properly and then push it back into its throat
2:19:20
all in a coordinated way, the milk will end up in its lungs
2:19:24
it'll get pneumonia and die. Wow. Of course, now you say it like that
2:19:28
it is sort of learned, not unlearned. Yeah, so some of these things are programmed in you
2:19:35
when you're born. So you've got lots of reflexes that connect your tongue
2:19:41
your epiglottis, your trachea, your esophagus, all to the brain stem, which means that the tongue sort of knows what to do
2:19:48
when it receives a stimulus. Oh, wow. So it's like when you tap your patella tag
2:19:54
then your knee goes. So you get a whole sequence of activities that happen
2:19:58
which are programmed into your brain. So in a way, you might as well have asked
2:20:03
Colin might as well have asked, about how we get food into our..
2:20:07
So epistalsis is the thing that takes the food into our tummy, right
2:20:12
Yeah, yes. And that's the same thing. That's like an involuntary muscle contraction
2:20:17
It's voluntary. So the top bit, when you can move your mouth
2:20:21
your tongue around, for example, so speaking, for example, and chewing, you can do that voluntarily
2:20:27
but there are involuntary actions that are also programmed in. Oh, you're joking me
2:20:31
It was a brilliant question. And when you swallow, then the activities, your epiglottis, your trachea
2:20:39
the peristaltic wave down, your esophagus, and all that stuff is pre-programmed
2:20:43
so you've got no control over that. That's just fantastic. So there's two things going on
2:20:48
One is that these things are programmed into your brain. And secondly, some of these things are vital to life
2:20:54
As I said, if you can't swallow, you die. That's it. So it's an evolutionary
2:20:58
If you didn't have that, you wouldn't survive. So well played, Colin
2:21:02
It's a much better question than any of us realised. And also, get lost, that person who wrote in saying
2:21:07
it sounds like it's a full moon, all the questions are rubbish. Shows what you know. Qualifications, Dev
2:21:12
So I've got a degree in physiology, but I'm also a surgeon. well, let us detain you no longer
2:21:18
You haven't got anyone. We didn't step out of the theatre for this, did you? Yeah, well, I needed to just wash my hands, so that's all right
2:21:24
Right, and applause for Dan. What a great answer. Of course, when you say it like that
2:21:28
that's brilliantly expressed, brilliantly. Philip's in golf's oak. Philip, question or answer
2:21:33
It's an answer, James. Go on, mate. Kind of going on from what the last one was talking about
2:21:38
different kinds of nerves and systems. It's about the bladder. Oh, yes
2:21:42
So why do you wake up? the bladder is basically a ball which is a big muscular bag
2:21:47
and inside the walls of that bag are nerves which work on the assumption that when the stretch gets to a certain point
2:21:55
it can hold no more so it has to evacuate the bladder. So during the day you're aware of that because you think
2:22:01
oh I need to go to the toilet, this, that and the other. During the night the autonomic nervous system
2:22:07
which is what he works in the background will look at the bladder and go this is getting full up
2:22:13
we now need to come out of sleep and evacuate the bladder
2:22:17
And again, it's a learned response. What kids learn to hold on to their wee when you're teaching them..
2:22:23
Of course they do, because they'd wet the bed otherwise, so we learn to recognise..
2:22:27
Exactly, yes, exactly. And then you learn to recognise that feeling, and it wakes you up
2:22:32
Yeah, and that's why you do it. So I was kind of right, but Eleanor was right to leave it on the board
2:22:39
because we've now got a much more interesting answer than me just talking about discomfort. You've gone all scientific honours, haven't you
2:22:45
That's it, yeah. Qualifications? A BSc in Human Biology. That'll do nicely
2:22:49
Round of applause for Philip. Thank you. Thank you all. Squeeze in one more. Hester's in Bristol
2:22:54
Hester, question or answer? Answer. You're going to have to be quick. I do apologise
2:22:58
I know, I realise. Carry on. Okay, right. It's about the making a weird face when you like the base
2:23:05
How low can you go? Bakes face. Yes. Well, I'm a kind of musician
2:23:09
and for years I wondered about why on earth we have like physiological
2:23:14
responses to the sounds like you get goosebumps and you stir. I cried once
2:23:20
I was at a concert and I was just getting tears pouring down my face. Yeah, it was extraordinary
2:23:23
I do it all the time. But anyway, so I was thinking about this
2:23:27
thing and I remembered a book that I found which answered all my questions
2:23:32
a few years back and unfortunately I can't remember the author but it was called Your Brain
2:23:37
on music. Okay. And I would recommend it to anyone who's even
2:23:41
remotely interested in this because it's absolutely fantastic. But anyway, basically, there are certain sounds
2:23:48
which we can create as music which have a sort of universal response
2:23:54
A physiological response. So in a way, all three of these questions are linked. The one about bladders
2:24:00
the one about tongues and the one about music. Yes, indeed. They're involuntary reactions
2:24:05
to certain stints. This is one of my favourite mystery hour moments of all time
2:24:10
We've got a Ray Liotta for the denim, for the jeans, and then we've had three questions
2:24:14
outwardly either varying degrees of ridiculous and having nothing to do with each other
2:24:18
but they all speak to the same biological phenomena. Do you think that's worthy of a board game
2:24:24
Ooh, yeah, go on then. Well, hang on, let me have a think. No, I have to go..
2:24:28
Well, have a round of applause in the meantime. Thank you. Thank you
2:24:32
No, lovely answer. Who gets the board game this week? Can someone else decide? Oh, okay
2:24:39
Yeah, all right. We'll give it to Hester because she seems so nice. And she asked, and now everyone else is going to ask
2:24:44
and next week will be a disaster. If you missed any of today's show, you can listen back on our free Global Player app
2:24:49
or the LBC app where you can also stay up to date with all the latest news, videos, and opinions
2:24:53
Podcast galore as well, including this show, Every Day, little edited version of it
2:24:57
James O'Brien Daily. Download the official LBC app for free from your app store now
2:25:01
This is from Karen. Today's LBC is very strange. Liz Truss with her aggressive praying
2:25:05
and Nick asking her what that looks like and now you putting a kipper under someone's nose
2:25:10
The bar is high, Sheila. James O'Brien on LBC

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