What's the point of school? | James O'Brien - The Whole Show

Two minutes after ten, Congo Chris Philp, clawing his way, elbowing his way into the news

Always good to see. Always a lovely way to start the week. We'll have a look at some of his other pronouncements later in the programme

Don't ask me why anybody's paying any attention to an unelected bureaucrat like Zia Youssef

I thought that lot hated unelected bureaucrats, isn't that what they existed to get rid of

Get rid of all the unelected bureaucrats. We only want elected politicians. But I will explain to you a little later in the program why, yeah, one European journalist described the far right as being almost beside themselves with glee at the scenes of human beings swimming to the exclave of Ceuta, technically Spanish territory, but not, as I don't think anyone else is going to bother to tell you this week, not in Schengen, therefore not actually a problem for the European Union

and in fact the massive majority of those human beings have gone home already

have already been sent to Morocco, except for the 72 that died, who again didn't seem to get any mention whatsoever

from the people trying to use yet another human tragedy for their own personal and political gain

More on that a little later. We'll begin with education. There are two stories in the news today that may have caught your eye

One is about parents fighting back against excessive authoritarianism. and it almost speaks to the same questions

as the one that I think we'll concentrate on first which sees the new Secretary of State for Education, Lucy Powell

describing a straight jacket, a schooling straight jacket and I appreciate not everybody finds this stuff as interesting as I do

I think the reason why I find it so interesting is because I am so acutely and permanently conscious

of the difference that education doesn't just make to lives, but made to my life

I'm not going to labour the point. If you've listened even in passing to this programme in the past

you'll be aware of my own educational background and also, perhaps, of the knowledge I have

Or not the knowledge, but the consciousness I have of where my life might have gone

had I not had the sort of education that I had. I mean, even at a posh public school

I had a housemaster who said once that I will be either in prison or a millionaire

by the time I'm 21. He was wrong on both counts, but that was pretty par for the course with him

But had I not gone to a school that kept a very close eye on you

then I don't know. Some of my less attractive traits might have taken me

into some very unpleasant places. So I'm aware of that. I'm also aware of strictness being largely a negative thing

Again, drawing on my own education. I only relatively recently did I realize in fact you might have been listening to me when I did

realize that at the school I attended where corporal punishment was still a thing the um

the same boys got beaten all the time I mean literally the same boys so in a cohort of let's

say 20 boys there'd be two boys who were beaten regularly and the other 18 weren't now I don't

know whether you hold up those two boys as the reason why the other 18 never got beaten

but excessive strictness seems to me to be unnecessary for the massive majority of children

and irrelevant for the ones that it's usually directed at. Most naughty kids, for want of a better word, are not naughty

We understand a lot better now, of course. Neurodiversity and that sense of shame that descends upon you

The moment you've done something wrong, there's a brilliant... I saw Belle and Sebastian in Margit on Friday night

I've had such a joyous year for gigs, you know. I've seen three of the best gigs of my life this year

Mike Skinner at the Alexander Palace, James at the O2, and thank you for all the lovely words

about the interview with Tim Boo, the lead singer of James, that is this week's episode of Full Disclosure

and then Belle and Sebastian at Dreamland in Margate last night. And there's a Belle and Sebastian song, isn't there

about a boy who's always getting into trouble, hang his head in shame again. Quite sort of religious undertones

as is often the case with Stuart Murdoch's work. But it's not the strictness

The story that the BBC carried today about a young girl who stopped drinking water

because that was the only way she could guarantee that she wouldn't need to go to the toilet

And as a consequence of not drinking enough water, she found herself getting all sorts of infections

So the straight jacket, the schooling straight jacket that Lucy Powell talks about

being forced to prioritise only academic subjects such as English, science and history

which has led to children feeling like failures again in her words, and again

just taking a fresh look at what we are teaching our children and whether we are equipping them for their lives ahead

I mean, I still think Latin is worth studying on one level, and on another level

I think she's absolutely right we do seem to be teaching things that have very little or no

modern applications. I remember a maths teacher, I must have told you this before

explaining to me that it wasn't pointless to learn Pythagoras' theorem because one day you might have to

paint the lines on the side of a rugby pitch, which is something he used to do

And he would use, he told us, Pythagoras' theorem to make sure that the right angles on all four corners

were absolutely plumb, were absolutely perfect. I don't even know how you'd do that

I can vaguely remember what Pythagoras' theorem is, but I don't know that I'd be able to deploy it

in the painting of white lines on the side of a rugby pitch

Nine minutes after ten is the time. So we all, when we talk about education

we all think first of our own education. At least I presume we do

And then you think perhaps about your children's, but your relationship with your children's education

is nowhere near as intimate as your relationship with your own education. and then you perhaps start thinking in more abstract terms

about what should and shouldn't be done. And what we have to get rid of

and indeed what I have got rid of, is the sense that what is best for you is best for everybody

So if, like Michael Gove and me, you benefit enormously from being tested

it kind of gives you a little free pass, a hack, if you like, on not actually working that hard the rest of the time

You can swat up for a test, You can smash it, you can get a gold star, and then you can go back to messing around for the rest of the term

Or you spend the term messing around, and then you get yourself into gear for the last couple of weeks or the last couple of days

You swot up for your exams and your tests, you do okay, and you camouflage the fact that you have been on autopilot for much of the year

Lucy Powell, understandably, like almost every teacher I've spoken to in recent years, blames Michael Gove for this

But Michael Gove would respond by pointing out that in international league tables in maths among 15-year-olds, we went up from 27th in 2009 to 11th in 2023

And there was a smaller but still real rise in our performance in science

supporters of Michael Gove would point out that Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales have

not experienced improvements that are comparable with indeed or similar to England But as and then most newspapers or media organisations will wheel out some weirdo who claims to be the strictest teacher in the world

or the strictest headmaster in Christendom or the strictest headteacher in Hogwarts

And they'll be talking about how important it is to treat children as sort of crops to be harvested

and not as human beings to be nurtured and cherished and looked after. so

is Lucy Powell right? let's begin with that first question is it a mistake to push children into

academic subjects? because the problem here is that you will think about you or your children

you'll just go well yeah it wasn't a mistake for me therefore the system is correct 03456060973

or you'll think I never should have done academic subjects I should have been able to explore

other sides of myself earlier in school. Therefore, yes, Lucy Powell is correct

03456060973. So I'm going to go with a slightly more philosophical question, actually

And again, to reference my own education, I ended up studying philosophy at university

which is simultaneously useless and the most important subject any human being can ever study

At the same time. If you don't test children a lot, How do you know how well they're doing

03456060973. I'll be launching the Burnham Optimism Barometer just before we go to the first break of the day

You'll have the duration of that break to submit your score, and we'll tot it up and reveal the answers

well, frankly, just when we get round to it. What? Here's a second question

If you think the first one was too philosophical, then wait till you try the second one for size

And I really want you to answer this, actually. I want you to ring in and answer this

I don't care how hot it is out there. I can't do this on my own all week. What's the point of school

What's it for? 03456060973. And if that sounds like a stupid question

let me remind you why it's not. Politicians, and indeed educational experts

are constantly arguing about what schools should be doing. which suggests to me that they don't agree about what school is for

Or if they do agree about what school is for, they disagree about how best to deliver the things that school is designed to deliver

But we haven't actually taken things back to first principles before. Or if we have, I can't remember

What is school actually for? 03456060973. And if we begin with that question

then we can look at what is the best way to deliver those things

what is the best way to deliver those things look, just in case the brilliant

guys and gals the men and women on social media at LBC, just in case they clip this up

and I'm sitting here going what's the point of school, this is not however viral it might go, this is not me saying

let's abolish schools lads and just like all go out picking strawberries instead

It is the opposite of that in a way. It is a reminder of the importance of establishing what we are doing

why we are doing it. So just your thought, your first thought

what is school for? And is it meeting those needs? I don't know the answer to that question

which always fills me with a sort of curious combination of trepidatiousness

because you might not know either, in which case we haven't got a phone in, and excitement because you're going to tell me things you're going to say

things to me that I haven't thought of before. You can go negative on it if you want

It's sustaining the capitalist con, but what is it designed to do

What is school for? 0345 6060973. And then the second question, looking at this issue of a straight jacket

and although she's talking more about pushing people into academic subjects than actual testing

the whole point about academic subjects is that they are testable, which is why some teachers prefer them

Measurable metrics. You can get a grade. You can get a mark out of 10 or a mark out of 100

And I don't think you need to be a teaching professional to answer this question, but here it is

If you don't test children a lot, how do you know how well they're doing

And in a way, those questions could turn out to be two sides of the same coin, couldn't they

So Gove, lots and lots of testing. Anti-Gove, less testing. That's simplistic, but I think accurate and effective

What is School 4, 03456060973? And if you don't test children a lot

how do you know how well they're doing? How do you know how successfully

they are getting the stuff that school is designed to deliver? All right

Hit the numbers now. You will get through. But before that, the bob is upon us

And that's two Mondays. That's the first Monday I had to remember. Thank you for all the reminders

Eleanor also remembered. I'd completely forgotten. Every Monday at quarter past ten

I ask you to submit a mark out of ten for how optimistic you currently feel

about Andy Burnham's premiership. I've forgotten what last week's number was, but the producer is about to remind me

Eight. Eight. Eight. Last week, Bob, the Andy Burnham Optimism Barometer stood at 8 out of 10

which was a very carefully calculated figure which has something to do with either modes, medians or means, averages

which, to be fair, is in pretty much the same part of my brain as Pythagoras' theorem

But there it is. Last week it stood at 8. Where does it stand today? Your Burnham Optimism Barometer score, submit it to 84850

or indeed WhatsApp it to 03456060973. 973 right now, and we will top them up

hopefully before 11 o'clock, if not shortly afterwards. But, but, but, but, but, key questions

Two-fold. What's school for? Reminders. Remind each other. Remind ourselves. What is school for

What are we supposed to be doing for and to these children? And if you don't test them a lot

how do you know whether it's working? It's 10.70. James O'Brien on LBC

And the Bob is now closed. The Burnham Optimism Barometer is now closed

apologies if you couldn't get your act together or if you thought you had longer we will no longer

be taking any submissions for the burnham optimism barometer the scores are in and the numbers are

about to be crunched 19 minutes after 10 is the time so the schooling straight jacket is what the

new education secretary lucy powell is targeting um and we're looking at what school is supposed to

be doing because sometimes i think we forget to ask the simplest questions and we're wondering

how you measure schools, how you judge success, how you assess pupils

without having lots of tests which seems to be anathema and I don't think we should have lots of tests

even though it was a method of education that suited me down to the ground

and yet I don have an answer to the question of what you do instead maybe it the wrong question Louisa is in Shepherd Bush Louisa what would you like to say I would like to say that I think that we cannot say

that one size fits all in education. I think that some kids really need the pressure

and they love exams and that's the way that their brain works. There are other kids who've got a different kind of

you know, they present with different needs and they need school to be a safe container

And I think that we dumbed down the politicians just to see, well, what do the majority need

And that in turn, it just doesn't serve the end purpose. So I think there should be many different types of schools

There should be one which is more for the neurodiverse or the trauma children or people who have, you know

basically there should be a lot of variety. You, Louisa, haven't read Lucy Powell's article this morning, have you

I haven't indeed. One, two, three. Wait, let me read you the first line of paragraph five

Ready? Yes. The one-size-fits-all approach simply doesn't suit all children. For some, it's become a straitjacket

A straitjacket that has left too many being branded a failure again and again

instead of being able to realise their potential. There you go. Okay, well, I do agree with her

Word for word, Louisa. Word for word. I'm just excited because I normally am working

and I've given myself the morning off and I was listening to your show

and I've pulled over in my car because I don't want Clod to arrest me

and I just thought, you know what, if I get through to your show... Well, here you are

I really... What I like about you is that you have the ability to debate

and you will say, this is my experience, but I'm not going to let it colour Tom, Dick and Harry's

I used to. And you're absolutely right. You know, Michael Gove and me benefit enormously from the one-size-fits-all approach

But guess what? The people it doesn't fit don't benefit. Do you want to have a little crack at the question of what school is for

Yes, I will. So, I'm just going to give you some context. I have been as a school psychotherapist

I worked in private. I worked in state. I've worked in really run-down areas

I've worked with all age groups. I've also worked in Holloway, women's prisons

I've worked in male prisons. So I see what happens when, you know, children's basic needs don't get met

And nobody looks at the broad picture. And it's very easy to come up with some Mickey Mouse solution

And, you know, and it's like, you know, I don't think, you know, I won't get into prisons

However, what is school for? School, developmentally, the brain from seven years on, and I do believe seven

And I think, you know, the first seven years should be about being secure and safe and being nurtured and being allowed to play

And then in those first seven years, if you're a brilliant footballer, it's going to be seen if you're a great dancer

But anyway, you then go and you learn how to socialize and you form and learn how to separate from your family

Really important. You learn how that you might, you know, don't know how to be good with other kids and you take things personally and you learn to be a little bit more robust

But then the schools cannot just put Tom and Harry in the same thing because Tom might be, you know, you know, I just think we've got to see people as individual needs and and try and have enough variants to support

And that will cost an awful lot of money and involve sort of root and branch reformation of a profession that presumably feels that it gets tinkered with every time there's a new government, every time there's a new education secretary

But your central point, I think, is inarguable, Louisa. Thank you so much. And if we wanted to try to pin down an answer to the question that accommodates Louisa's ysis of lots of different children need lots of different things, what would the commonality be

Lucy Powell, to give her her due, has a crack at that in her article for The Times this morning

She uses the word passport. This means giving more children a passport to success wherever their passions lie

creating high vocational options as well as the academic ones. But I like this phrase

What is school for? Education, she writes, should be a passport, a passport into work, into life, onto the next stage

As things stand, too many aren't given one. And she suggests that many of the one million young people not currently in education, employment or training

And remember, they are all graduates of the education system that Michael Gove and Dominic Cummings created with a side order, a rather large side order, I happen to believe, of COVID related lockdowns

But there are a million of them. They graduated from Michael Gove's education system

They're currently not in education, employment or training. So they clearly weren't given a passport

But what is in that passport? What does that even mean? What are the stamps

What's on the pages? And 25 minutes after 10 is the time

Tell me what it's like to leave school without a passport. Why do you think when you left school

looking back now and using Lucy Powell's imagery, you didn't have a passport

You hadn't been equipped with whatever it is that you would have needed to move on

to the next stage of life, into work, into life, into society

What was it like? Why do you think you didn't have a passport? And what's it like not to have one

Because those are the people that I think this conversation is aimed at

Ben's in Reading. Ben, what would you like to say? Hello, James. Yes, so to give a bit of context

I'm a teacher myself in a secondary school, but I'm also, I finished school in 2006

I'm dyslexic, I'm autistic, so I completely understand the principles behind all of it

When I was at school, yes, dyslexia was something that was approached, but I still had to meet the same standards

I still had to do an exam without necessarily having a lot of support from the school

And I managed to get through. I managed to go through and do a degree. And then I managed to get on with my life from that as well

I'm not going to say it wasn't tough, but certainly one thing I would say as an observation of school in 2026

to school in 2006 is there was a lot more done for the child

by school staff and a lot more of I'm trying to think of the words to phrase this right

but without letting we're almost letting the child off of their actions a lot more

and there is a lot of school staff who feel that they are putting in

more work than the child is putting into their own education system. I'm interested

in this, it's not really the phone in that we're having today i you're about to use the word resilience i think aren't you yes so we've done that phone

in many times i'm interested in what you think school is for so i mean in part the word that i

was going to say is allowing the child to make the mistakes in school and learn how to work and fit in

with the real world that is one of the key things i think the fundamental thing is there is an

educational element to within that allowing children to experiment and try out different life pathways Like what give me some examples or some sort of ideas of what you mean

So, oh, a key one. So my father was a solicitor. My mother did a philosophy and ethics degree at Cambridge

So both highly academic, but I went down a photography and art route at school

by trying out different things, by finding what I enjoyed and then taking that further from that further

so actually it doesn't mean that what your family has done before is what your your the way your

pathway has already been set out in front of you allows you to try out different areas

experiment with those areas and see actually is that the pathway i want to take um and that involves

and perhaps this is something you would have felt quite keenly with with an academic background and

dyslexia which would be part of the reason why i think you felt more comfortable in visual

media and in in in photography and art it would involve removing some of the value from academic

subjects you know lucy powell is describing the prioritization of english maths and science but

for many bright children well bright's a terrible word but for many young people for many children

who don't have a natural facility with those disciplines we don't put any effort into finding

the things that they might have a natural facility for. Or we don't put enough effort into it

and someone did put the effort into helping you find the things you had a natural affinity for

And I think... We're going to lose the phone line. Go on

In a sentence, quickly, because your phone line's going south. So I think also

they censored art subjects don't... Hello? I did warn you, but I think you got

your point across. It's nobody's fault, that, by the way. If the phones go south on LBC, it's not the

producer's fault, it's not the caller's fault. Actually, I tell it all. It's probably the presenter's fault

I get the blame for everything around here. Seriously, if you get the breakfast order wrong for the production team

it's my fault somehow. Honestly, the crosses I bear quietly and silently on your behalf

I know what you're thinking. Where is all the quietness and silence, James? These are not things I associate with you

It's half past ten. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Dominic Ellis is here now with the headlines

James O'Brien on LBC. 10.33 is the time. I mean, rather than a catch-all umbrella term to describe what school is for

I think a lot of us are just sort of throwing tickets into the pot that contain things we think are important

I don't think anything is more important, really, as you get older than understanding the importance of critical thinking

being taught how to work out which sources are reliable and which sources are not

how to actually process information in a way that takes you towards knowledge and truth

rather than disinformation and misinformation. And this story about Theuta that you just heard reference to there

in our news bulletin is an absolutely classic example. Probably the best quote you'll read on this

is from an Italian journalist who has described the global right, Andrea Rizzi

Sorry, I think a Spanish journalist. The global right wing are, in Andrea's words

hyperventilating with happiness at these scenes. And, of course, Russia has been gloating too

Russia's absolutely delighted by these sins. Donald Trump, of course, is very cross with Spain

because they opposed his war on Iran. He's used words like catastrophe and invasion

Giorgia Maloney in Italy has an election looming. She will well know that almost all of the people

that crossed that body of water from Morocco into the Spanish exclave of Ceuta have already been returned

They've already been sent back. Did you know that? Because I'll tell you what, that unelected bureaucrat Zia Yusuf will be pretending or guaranteeing or banking on the fact that you don't know that

And that he doesn't want you to know that. And he certainly won't be telling you that

I don't know whether Farage himself is going to be speaking later today. But given that I think journalists are present and will want to ask him questions about his increasingly murky finances

I think it's unlikely that it will be open season on asking the great defenders of freedom of speech

anything that you would like to ask them but they won't be telling you this

and thank goodness for decent journalists like Sarah Rainsford at the BBC

who's dug in properly to all of these facts and found out what is actually going on

so the first thing you need to know in my view and I'm going to say as a Christian

but of course every other religion that preaches compassion and kindness would also focus upon this figure

The first thing you need to know is that 72 people are dead, at least

Their bodies pulled from the sea where they floated alongside rubber rings and flippers

72 people dead, and yet, as Andrea Ritzy correctly says, the global right, or the far right if you prefer

are hyperventilating with happiness. 72 people dead, and you don't need me to tell you which politicians in this country

are rubbing their thighs with glee and preparing to pretend that this is indicative of some broader, larger truth

We also know, thanks to this journalist's work, that the thing about Maloney that you most need to know

is that she announced that they were suspending Italy's Schengen treatment with Spain

despite the fact that, of course, Theuta is not in the Schengen zone and there is no way for people who have made that journey

to get into mainland Europe unchecked. She knows that, but she's got elections later this year

And so she needs to sound, well, she needs to abandon the truth and essentially endorse or indulge the propaganda

If you're interested in how it happened, Spain announced, there's two things that have happened in Spain in recent months

One is a controversial move to allow hundreds of thousands of undocumented migrants

to apply for residence and work permits to regulise their status. It's an idea that Boris Johnson also endorsed

when he was originally running for mayor of London. and it's why some of us voted for him

because it takes people out of the so-called black economy and puts them on the payroll

and ensures that not only do they enjoy protections in the workplace

but also that they can be properly and legally taxed. He also, or rather the Supreme Court in Spain

also made a ruling about making it much harder to push back people who have reached Spain by sea

Of course, Theuta doesn't fall under that category. And what they've discovered is that online

loads and loads and loads of accounts were punting the idea that if you could just get to theatre

you would not only achieve legal migration status, but it would also be almost impossible for them to send you back

Reporters have heard people shouting, Spain is open, as they jumped into the sea

Multiple accounts that the BBC has checked itself show young people in wetsuits and flippers

or filming themselves already swimming. but these accounts have only been active for weeks

All of their promises were false. If you made it to Theuta, you were met with nothing

You got no food, you got no shelter and you had absolutely no route into continental Europe

which is why most of them quickly turned back of their own accord and thousands and thousands of others will be helped to get back

And there it is. Why has migration in this way been... It happened in Belarus a few years ago, you'll remember, almost certainly with Russian roots

Why would the global right be hyperventilating with happiness over a story that is over and done with

before the ink is even dry upon your daily newspapers? And why will far-right politicians today be attempting to pretend that this story is something that it isn't

I'll leave you to answer those questions, but it occurred to me, this is one of the things we go to school for

so that we have the ability to work out what's true and what isn't

and arguably it's probably more important now than it was 50 years ago

should have gone the other way shouldn't it you'd have thought with technology and relative wealth

Maslow's hierarchy of needs being met we have shelter, we have food

we would have more time to focus upon working out what's true and what isn't

but yeah I'm not seeing it myself 10.39 is the time. Back to school

And the questions of, what's it for? And how do you judge whether it's working or not if you're not constantly testing children

Linda's in Bedford. Linda, what would you like to say? Hi, James. I wanted to start with an ogy

which I hope the gardeners among your listeners will understand. I always say you do not put a lime-loving plant into acid soil

and then blame the plant when it doesn't thrive. Oh, I like that. But we do that to children every day of the week

I've been both a teacher and a youth worker and I also worked on the then financial services authority, financial capability scheme and I was looking particularly at work with NEAT, which is quite topical at the minute as well

and there was a big drive to get financial education for example into school the problem

there for me and I think it fits with lots of other aspects of the curriculum is that they

thought if we just teach you how to keep your money safe how to open a bank account all of those

kind of things you will do it and you'll do it properly whereas for me it's not just about that

It's also about your attitudes and your behaviours and your values because they all impinge on how you manage your money

So that's just a small example. So for me, the school is there to prepare you for your life

and to help you to get the absolute maximum out of it

to reach your full potential. So anything that's in the curriculum, particularly for those children and young people who are not academic

they need to be able to see the relevance of it to their lives

Now, when I went into youth work and changed, one of the things I used to joke about was I said I left teaching

because I was interested in learning. And there was an element of truth in that

because I know you might have smaller groups that you're working with, but you can also use hooks in a way that a teacher can't always do

which is a bit about what you were saying, you know, in terms of finding what a young person is interested in

and then seeing them thrive and develop. So I just think that if we start there

and I also say this as a parent of a very naughty boy when he was at school

Right. Would you have used that word? Would you have used that word then? What, naughty boy

Yeah. Probably. Yeah, because it's hard to know what other words to use, isn't it

But it takes me back to that thing I can't believe it took me so long to realise

that when I was at school, between the ages of 7 and 13, it was the same two boys in every group of 20 that got beaten

So they weren't naughty. There was something else going on there. Well, exactly

And with my son, he actually ended up going into... They actually set up a naughty boys class

Gosh. And the only reason that I didn't make a fuss about it

was the teacher was amazing. So, you know, I thought that was best. Did they call it that

No, all the kids in school called it that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. that. Can't stop that, can we

But the thing is, we knew, you know, he was a very bright boy, and he just wasn't being

stretched, he was just mischievous, you know, getting phone calls to, you know, I have to

tell you that so-and-so has been suspended because he got the whole class to pull a moony

in front of the geography teacher. So we had all that kind of stuff going on all the time

now he now has got a global physiography and photography company it's always traveling all over the world

finding something that he would be good at finding something that he would be good at

can I ask you, let me just steer you to a slightly different question why, if we were

to go back 30 years why do people have the idea that

children, I mean I don't know whether they were or not, this is where my own experiences

are utterly blinkering but this feels like a new problem certainly the scale of NEETS that the number of people not in

education employment or training and a lot of them are going to be consequences of of a failure to

engage at school but but back when their parents or their grandparents were at school it didn't

seem to have such poor outcome maybe it did it have but have we always had really really poor

outcomes yeah I'm just thinking when I said I was at the FSA that was 20 years ago and there were a

million meets then and that was why they were trying to focus on so yeah you have to remember

sometimes it could just be because the spotlight is shining on something that we think is shining

exactly it's another moral panic but i do think that the i know it's a different subject but

really the kind of decimation on the i know that's how you should use that one um of the youth service

over the last 10 15 years it has been extraordinary and a lot of those kids i know would have been

picked up and infused by good youth work. As you know, of all people, I can see..

No, I know it's not, and the places where it are happening are as rare as hen's teeth. It's something I was

talking to Amelia de Moldenburg about the other day, the star of

the chicken shop interviews, and I think, for me, sort of one of the biggest talents on

the internet at the moment, an absolute legend. But her big break, and she comes from a very middle-class background

her father was a councillor, of Westminster Council, her big break was in one of the places that you describe

It was in a sort of North London youth magazine where she managed to find her niche

and discover what it was that she was good at. And those places don't exist on anything like the scale that they're used to

It's why she set up a charity dedicated to looking after them

and it's why we set up one in the memory of our late friend Andy Taylor, which tries to help people into spaces that they can't get into

And they are journeys into spaces that would once have been accelerated or eased by youth groups and youth workers

But you're right. We're back to Osborne's Razor. If you are not familiar with Osborne's Razor, it's a variation on Occam's Razor

Thank you, Linda. Every time I mention Osborne's Razor, I get four messages saying

I think you'll find it's Occam's Razor. I know about Occam's Razor. Osborne's Razor is the love child of Occam's Razor

And it means that when we're discussing the things about our country that feel measurably worse than they did 20 years ago

the reason is almost always George Osborne, and indeed austerity. So the NEETs, of course, one million NEETs

all graduates of Michael Gove's education system, but all victims arguably of George Osborne austerity George Osborne and David Cameron who in case you haven been paying attention remain entirely untouched by the horrors that they inflicted on this country

And, of course, they created the environment into which people like Boris Johnson and Liz Truss could effortlessly slide, not to mention Nigel Farage

But it's not him making the news this morning, it's his mate, the king of the Nepo babies, Richard Tice. More on that after this

James O'Brien on LBC. It is 10.49. Of course, for Charlie and Matt and the rest of them

the reason why you go to school is to ogle Miss Mackenzie, the teacher

and then in some lyrics that perhaps wouldn't make the grade these days

to spy on her at home. I refer, of course, to the classic busted track

That's What I Go To School For. But those are not acceptable answers to the question that I'm asking you today, which is what is school for

And Lucy Powell, I think, is right when she says to provide a passport. But we need a little more on what is in that passport

What is in that passport and what is currently missing? And what's it like to be failed

You're called a failure, but actually you've been failed. You're leaving school without a passport

Having said all of that, I think Adie makes a brilliant point. I just want to remind you, James, that not all the NEATs failed in school

There are lots of young people who did very well in school who are currently unable to find suitable work

because there are not enough suitable jobs for young people. Please make that clear, says Adie in Dartford

You're absolutely right. I'm constantly pointing out that the idea that there's one prescription

for one million people is ridiculous. We learned last week that about 100,000 of them

are quite possibly not in education, employment or training because they're busy looking after a relative

who is disabled, who is in need of care. They are busy caring for a relative to such a degree

that they can't commit to education, employment or training. The Bob schools are in

Even more entries this week than last week. The second week of Bob, the Burnham Optimism Barometer

What do you reckon? Are we more optimistic about Andy Burnham now? Or has the gloss begun to fade

Or are we identical? Will it be another 8 out of 10? Find out a little later in the programme

It's 10.51. Joanne is in Sunderland. Joanne, what made you pick up the phone

Hi James, how are you? I've just finished my 30th year as a primary school teacher

30th year? 30th year. Just wait there a second. Can we get someone with a bit more experience, please

Can we get someone? All right, you're all right. Okay, apparently I haven't got anyone else

I'll have to listen to you for a while. Carry on, Joanne. That's all right, Pat. So, I think this morning I've listened to it with a lot of interest

because I've seen many education secretaries over the years. I think primary started being missed out a bit this morning, James

Well, fill your boots. The purpose of a primary school. So the purpose of a primary school is to teach our children basic skills

but that has changed dramatically over the years. So when I first started, like, children came in and they were ready for school

They could do all this, could do all that. Now we have children coming in who don't have those basic skills

You know, they pick up a book and they try to swipe it instead of read it

They don't know how to play. They don't know how to engage. So a lot of our time in our early years is spent with those social skills

And it's vital. It's absolutely vital because otherwise they can't learn. So they're sitting at home and parents are just not aware of what they should be doing

or could be doing differently. It's not like a conscious decision to be negligent or delinquent

it's just the parents are spending their lives swiping away and scrolling and this isn't even a

class-based issue the middle classes are probably a little bit more conscious of what the correct

way to behave is but they're just as susceptible to distractions and so the kids are arriving at

school and this isn't like a tabloid exception that proves the rule or this is a common experience

for you that you're dealing with things that never would have happened before or if they did happen

and it would have set off alarm bells everywhere. Absolutely. I mean, one of my many jobs is single

So I work very closely with our fantastic reception class teacher and we try to pick our children up really quickly

So for speech and language problems, for social problems. They're our main areas

So we try to sweep in early. But I just feel like primary is

they're trying to make it in any secondary and that's not what we're about. When did that start

When did that start? Does it go? I go, I would say

And it's become a lot worse. I think I was saying that

you're a lovely producer, like it's pre and post-Covid. My role's changed dramatically post-Covid

But I just want them to listen to us. Just listen to us

Come into a primary school and see what we do. We'll test them when they come in

We'll test them in year two, even though that's optional now. We'll give them the multiplication test in Year 4

Then we'll test them again with SATs. And I tell you what, James, I also teach Year 6

And for the two years we didn't have SATs, those berns thrived. They thrived

Because I could just teach them as a teacher, not teaching to a test

Well, if we had a defender of this system here now, and I said, why are you testing these little ones so much

What would they say? Oh, data. Data, data, data, data. Every child is data

but they're not. They're berns. They're little people. And data is good to collect because

it can be quantified. You can say, oh look, they came in at this level, but look where they're going out

now. And it's like, ah, that's lovely, but you want your berns to do the best. I'm a mum

of two who have done really well in this education system, but you want more from them than

just a fat score or a multiplication tables check score or a GCSE grade

You want them to be well-rounded people who are ready to face the world

and school should be that and teach them critical thinking. Dear God, please teach them that

You are. I nearly said I wish you'd taught my children, but we were actually very lucky. No, we were very lucky

My children had wonderful teachers, so I don't want to make it sound like they didn't, but I can tell, I bet you have people coming back

You must have taught some of your former pupils' children by now

Have you? Have you had them coming back round? Not quite yet. I'm not a teacher, Nana, yet

30 years. All right. I'm not a Nana teacher yet. It will happen

It will happen. And what you suddenly made me realize, Joanne, I could listen to you all day

but it's trust, isn't it? It's trusting teachers, and some of them maybe will betray that trust

or get, you know, get tired and get disillusioned. But what the system Gove brought in

spoke to was an idea that teachers just need to be treated almost like children themselves

We can't just trust Joanne to run a good school. We have to have metrics and measures and data at

every turn to say that's going well, that's going badly, you're in special measures, you can have an

apple you can have a biscuit you can have a review That why Ofsted is so widely maligned as well because it trust isn it It your instincts recognising your instincts

your talents, your vocation, and letting you do your thing. Yeah, just let us do my job

Like, I know what I'm doing, you know. And, yeah, I'm always striving to find out new stuff

I'm always looking to see, you know, how I can improve things for my burns

But it's exhausting. Of course it is. It's really tiring. And it's the children that lose out, actually

It is. And also get to feel like failures because they don't hit their targets

They don't get their marks. Yeah. Oh, wow. We've done the Burnham Optimism Barometer

What do you think about your early thoughts on Lucy Powell? Is she saying the right things

I mean, I'm a Sunday last and I was really disappointed with Bridget Philipson

and she went to the same school as my Ben's went to. Is that right? Yeah, Stendel

so I just want someone to listen to us. I think that's the main thing

You know, you agree, whatever, whatever, you've got this title of education secretary in

but come and talk to teachers. Don't talk to people who run big maths

Don't talk to, like, these so-called, you know, professional speakers and stuff like that

who've not been in the classroom for 20-odd years. Come into a primary school, stay with us for a day

And speak particularly to people like you who have mapped the change and who can actually identify what the challenges are today that are

different from what the challenges were 30 years ago and i think you're absolutely right about covid

i don't think we had it's one of the reasons why i quite like the question earlier of what is school

actually for because i don't think that we um realized and i think that probably includes the

teaching profession as well of how much of what school was for had absolutely nothing to do with

education in the classical sense. It certainly had absolutely nothing to do with things that can be

assessed by data or collated as targets. It was literally about equipping children with

social skills. Even that word sounds anodyne and hollow, but it was about giving children what

they needed to not be frightened of the world. And that's the phrase I think of now when I read

of the needs. And it doesn't fit all of them. Some of them are itching to get out there

but every knock back takes away a bit of itch. But that idea of the world being a place that you need to become acclimatized to

as you move away, as you cut the apron strings, you move away from the regimentation and the routine

and the discipline of education into the workplace. But if you take a huge chunk of schooling out of a child's life

of a child's formative years, you're taking away an awful lot of the lessons

that they would have learned silently or would have learnt by almost educational osmosis

rather than the classroom or the textbook. Joanne, thank you. Picking up on this point, actually

James, I totally agree, but having worked in education for 30 years in primary schools

I've seen data driving everything we do. That's another. There's two 30-year veterans of the primary school system

I'm on SLT in a school with a high percentage of disadvantaged children

My local authority in Ofsted don't care. They look only at the data points

They ask why my children aren't reaching the expected standard. We have collapsed all foundation subjects to try to get out of a hole

which means the children are now doing maths and English almost all day long. I know it's wrong, but if the results don't improve

then I will be held painfully accountable. I blame the chasing of data and the loss of children's identity

We drive children for test results rather than a broad and balanced curriculum. Please keep me anonymous, as I don't want any fallout if it is read out

and you're lucky that Eleanor read that before I did because she got the warning not to say your name at the top of the message

which is what you need to do. Everybody, if you want me not to read your name out

don't put the thing at the end of the message because if I read the first two lines and I think, oh, this sounds good

I'll read the rest of it without checking which is why sometimes I might stop reading a message out halfway through

when it all goes a bit weird but there it is. I didn't read out the name

but absolutely endorsing what Joanna had to say about the tyranny, the dictatorship of data, if you like

the tyranny of testing, and something else that is alliterative that isn't quite springing to mind speedily enough

We'll return to elements of this conversation, and we may return this week, actually, to the authoritarian issue

another amazing story in the news about children responding and parents objecting to schools that are too strict

But I'm going to do the wealth tax next. James O'Brien on LBC

Four minutes after 11 is the time. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC

The iNewspaper, where I should probably declare an interest, despite having spent a long time telling you that it's a brilliant read

I am now one of their columnists, so I would be biased, wouldn't I

But the iNewspaper has done some polling on the wealth tax. this isn't a phone-in

even though I'm not that self-indulgent but why do you think I haven't talked about the wealth tax

in ages it's been really present hasn't it I bet everyone else has done it

as a conversation or as a as a report why haven't I

I don't really know part of the reason I haven't done it

is because the arguments seem so well rehearsed the idea that it hasn't really worked anywhere else

I don't know whether that stands up to proper scrutiny. That's probably my fault, isn't it

for not having undertaken the proper scrutiny. It wouldn't hit me, the one that the iNewspaper has polled about

that so a wealth tax on assets worth more than £10 million is apparently supported by two-thirds of the population

and support, according to this exclusive polling, shows that that support comes from across the political spectrum

73% would be happy with a rise in the... I also want to see a rise in the basic tax rate threshold

frozen for five years. So the massive majority of people in favour of a wealth tax

are also in favour of policies that would make them a little bit better off

Economists estimate that a wealth tax on assets above £10 million would raise £10 billion a year for the Treasury

and affect 100,000 households. The right-wing media gets its tanks on your lawns

at a rate of knots when stories like this are in the offing

And that is why I have got the idea, or that is where I have got the idea from

that they've tried it in lots and lots of other places and it has never worked. The more I dig into it, the less true that seems to be

But I want to make it absolutely clear that it might be true. They're looking at the Paris School of Economics and King's College London

when they refer to economists and academics who moot the possibility of a £10 billion a year figure

with only 1,000 households affected. There was also a call last week from a group called Patriotic Millionaires

many of whom signed a letter stating that they should be paying a little more tax and they be comfortable with a 2 levy on wealth of over 10 million pounds What I think about this is the 2 on wealth over 10 million pounds

Everybody is going to be earning more than 2% on their pot, right

So you're paying it essentially out of the interest that you are receiving

or the profits you are making on your wealth. So it's a 2% levy

So they don't touch the first 10 million, right? And then your wealth over 10 million gets hit with a 2% levy

I mean, if you're worth 100 million, that's 2% of 80 million

which I think you're going to be making anyway. Listen, I'm just thinking out loud about fairness

because this is one of those tax rises that would not affect me

Normally, I like to give myself a little pat on the back for being such a stand-up citizen, such a patriotic person

because I'm in favour of paying a little bit more tax. I pay a lot of tax, actually

I'm not going to tell you how much tax, because it makes my eyes water, but I pay a lot of tax

And 52% of the population, I don't know if you're aware of this

are not net contributors. 52% of households in this country are taking out more

than they actually put in. Over the course of lifetimes, I think

There was some research into this. I read it in the Financial Times at the weekend. So that's one of the most patriotic things I do

is pay an absolute king's ransom in tax. And I like paying it

even as I find myself supporting people whose politics I might find abhorrent

even as the people that fall for the racist lies of various propagandists and populists

while actually not being net contributors to our treasury, blaming it all on immigrants

while in fact they are part of the problem, not the solution, I'm proud of that as well

Because if we don't help them, who will? So normally when it comes to conversations about higher taxes

I can be a little bit holier than thou. I can't on this one

I can't on this one. Just 10% of people opposed such a plan

10%. That's a tiny figure. High wealth in the tax system, targeting it

found support from around 66% of adult Britons who would be behind this wealth tax on assets worth more than £10 million

Part of me... Part of me is fascinated by the 10%, who are never going to be near this threshold

but who are opposed to it. I don't think it's fair to say that you're brainwashed or stupid

I just don't. I mean, in some ways, I'd like to confine the conversation to you in a way

I'm not going to because I'm a big fan of freedom of speech

a big fan of plurality of inputs. I've always been fascinated by the people who think

that they are somehow on the same team as the super wealthy

And when the super wealthy argue that they shouldn't be contributing more to the well-being of the society

that has made them super wealthy or sustained their super wealth, then people who will never be super wealthy

people who will never even be wealthy by most measures, are cheering them along

And listen, there's a huge amount of effort that's being put into it. various newspaper

owners, all plutocrats, all protecting their own wealth, all adamant that there should be

less and less taxation on what they pass on to the next generation

all moving heaven and earth to avoid paying the sort of same levels of inheritance

tax that my children will have to pay when I shuffle off this mortal coil

But that's not really the point of the conversation. The point of the conversation

is the ethics of it the ethics of it I just want you to tell me and you're allowed to ring in

and say fair all right so if you've got 11 million quid I think you'd be paying

about 20 grand a year as this so-called wealth tax kicks in but I just I just I

I'm sort of challenging myself now to get the question right because I don't

And always, part of the reason why I've not done this conversation in the past

is because I've heard it so many times. I want to hear a new conversation today, and I really need your help

You really came through for me on the education phone. I'm getting my old age

I'm getting quite grouchy about new territory. I don't want to hear the same calls again and again and again

I am, however, when we, as a few of you have already pointed out, I am going to reach for my John Steinbeck quote in a moment

which is part of the answer to the question of how people who will never be wealthy

can be against the wealth tax on the super wealthy. But I think it's fair

I just think it's fair. If I had £11 million in the bank

the idea of paying £20,000 in order to just undo some of the damage done by Osborne's razor

would to me be a no-brainer. that's probably one of the reasons why I haven't got 11 million pounds in the bank

and I wonder whether there's some truth in that I wonder whether in order to achieve that sort of wealth

especially from a standing start you have to prioritize the simple accumulation of money

more than almost anything else this isn't an insult by the way, far from it

it's something that we do every hour on every program it's an attempt to understand something

I don't currently understand. But I sit here and imagine... If I had £11 million in the bank

maybe I wouldn't be comfortable handling over £20,000 because I'd be thinking about

what I might have spent that £20,000 on. Oh, hang on a minute

If I didn't have to pay my wealth tax, I could... What? What would you spend £20,000 on

if you had £11 million in the bank that you can't afford if you've spent £20,000 on a wealth tax

So the calculations, my mental calculations, don't apply here. They don't seem to deliver the no-brainer

that this story seems to me to represent. The no-brainer. 10%, sorry, a tiny percentage

on wealth over £10 million. So assets worth more than £10 million

All right, talk to me about that. So they're looking at the mortgage-free element of your home

Right? They're looking at how much money you could release if you sold everything

So you've got £11 million worth of assets, but the only logical objection to this

I think, would be that you would find it a struggle to get your hands on £20,000

You've got £11 million worth of assets, but you'd struggle to get your hands on £20,000

I think you probably need some better financial advice, don't you? I don't know

I just... I just... I just want you to tell me... why anyone would object to this, even if they've got the money

Do you see what I mean? I'm not getting it right. I'm not getting it right

Hang on a second. Maybe I am getting it right. Quarter past eleven is the time

It's a two percent on assets in excess of ten million pounds

Maybe the thing I'm missing, maybe the point I'm missing, is that this is actually a lot of money, and I'm suggesting that it isn't

and that people would really notice it. But I think it's more about a personality type, isn't it

I wish I'd been more careful when I was younger, but I wasn't. It doesn't keep me awake at night

I had a wonderful time messing around, partying, buying things I couldn't afford

living beyond my means. I had a wonderful, wonderful time. I could have done something differently in my life

I could have set something up. You talk about how you need to have equity in something

you need to be selling something, you need to have something to sell. I've got friends who are as rich as Croesus

and they've had great lives too. They're just built differently from me

And maybe it's not fair to take more. Well, no, it just is fair, isn't it

It's just fair. 03 45 60 60 973 is the number that you need

So, what is the issue for you here? That's the question. Just tell me about your relationship with this proposal

The idea that when we look at the society that we inhabit, the people who have got the most

have benefited the most in financial terms from our shared resources. They've benefited from the education system

because they have an educated workforce. They've benefited from the transport system because their business couldn't operate

without decent transport links. They've benefited from the National Health Service because the National Health Service keeps their workforce healthy

These aren't going to apply to everybody who's got a ton of money, but, you know, there'll be other things you benefit from

You benefit from having a base, a home in a country that is a cultural hotbed

You benefit from being able to go and do things that you can't do in other places

There's history here. There's history, population, and luck. And if you've ended up with a ton of money, you are lucky

It's a patriotic thing to do, no? 0345 6060973. I always think Alan Sugar, I think

I may be misremembering this, but I think Alan Sugar stuck a check once on Twitter

showing how much income tax he paid. And I remember thinking, that's brilliant

What a legend. Look how much income tax that man is paying. I remember thinking, that's what we should be celebrating

Am I sounding nuts? Or am I just sounding like somebody who is talking sense

in a world where almost all of the effort in our media

is put into mocking voices like mine. Mocking voices. I mean, the real idiots say

well, if you want to pay more tax, you can. Why don't you pay it voluntarily? Which I think is such a boneheaded argument

that you wonder whether or not the people making it should be allowed near scissors

But then you look at the fact that Boris Johnson got elected, that Brexit got voted for

that Liz Truss was described as an economic genius by the same newspapers that are furious at the prospect of a wealth tax

You look at the support for people like Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu among British people who have apparently been educated

and you realise people can be persuaded into almost any imaginable position

up to and including climate change denial. So, of course, you're going to be able to persuade people that they're against a wealth tax

in the same way that you persuaded them Brexit was a good idea. Boris Johnson was a stand-up guy

Liz Truss was an economic genius. austerity was a necessary corrective for the catastrophes caused by the greed of bankers right around the world

that Donald Trump is the best thing since sliced bread, and that Benjamin Netanyahu has got Israel's interests at heart rather than his own

You can persuade people of anything, absolutely anything. So, of course, you can persuade them that a wealth tax is a bad idea

Is that the point here? Is that why I'm struggling with the subject? Because it's just another thing to stick on the same list of the bleeding obvious

but a significant portion of our population has been persuaded to reject the evidence of their own eyes and ears

It's just fair. Where else are you going to get the money from? Get it off the scroungers

Who told you about the scroungers? Oh, the people that own the newspaper. Oh. Oh, yeah

Get it off the immigrants. Who's obsessing about the immigrants? It's the... Oh

It's the... Yeah. And what did they tell you about Brexit? They told me it would be brilliant

What did they tell you about Boris Johnson? They told me he was a legend. What did they tell you about Donald Trump

They told me I had Trump derangement syndrome when I kept pointing out what a wrongany was

Is the wealth tax just another one? That's the question. 0345 6060973 is a tax on assets

a small levy on assets in excess of £10 million. So quite a lot of people in my inbox have already got it wrong

I'm not blaming you for that. If you've got £11 million, the tax would apply to £1 million of your £11 million

not to all 11 million. You get your first 10 million clear

and then you pay 2% on the excess. It's the will of the people

It's 73% of the population. Sorry, 66% of the population. Is it just another one on those lists

Is it just another thing that ordinary decent people have been persuaded to oppose

by extraordinary indecent people? Is it another Brexit? Is it another Boris

I don't know. I think it probably is. But I want you to tell me your relationship with it

and particularly why you're against it even though you will never in a billion years

be required to pay it. 0345 6060 973 is the number you need

James O'Brien on LBC. It is 22 minutes after 11. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

where a little bit more detail on that story involving the Nipo king Richard Tice

and an investigation into his financial affairs now. It's understood that the investigation relates to an alleged failure

to declare an interest in Israel when speaking in Westminster Hall. I don't have any further detail on that

but is it business interest that he's got in Israel when hosting an event

or speaking in Westminster Hall? I don't know, but that's what he is reportedly being investigated for

A reform source described it as baffling, adding he was fighting anti-Semitism in Westminster Hall

and it ends up in an investigation. It is almost certainly a little bit more complicated than that

I think Farage himself might actually be answering questions at the moment about his financial affairs

At the end of an interview, which was probably about immigration, that seems to me to be the only thing he can talk about now

and he'll be absolutely gutted that it's plummeting. But obviously he doesn't need to mention that

He'll probably be talking about the situation in Theuta, which, as I explained to you an hour ago

is not as they would have you believe. Natasha Clarke has the dubious pleasure of being present for that so press conference She join us at about 12 to talk us about what has happened and indeed to talk us through the latest revelations about Nigel Farage financial affairs and political career

He's doing that thing, I can see on one television screen, he's doing that thing where he sort of looks sort of faux-shocked or faux-outraged

So maybe they are actually allowed to ask some questions today. He's also extraordinarily brown

which Sarah Pochin's going to be furious about, isn't she? I mean, he honestly looks like a conker

I don't know where he spent the last few days. He could have just been in Margate, soaking up the rays there

But basically what we have, looking at a Nigel Farage press conference, is a brown face on our television screens

So poor old Sarah Pochin is going to be having a fit of the vapours

And staying with reform, I've got a story for you a little later this hour about a cafe owner who has been feeding hungry school children

and has somehow ended up having a bit of a run-in with a reform councillor

It's an extraordinary story. I didn't do it on Friday because I didn't quite believe my eyes

Turns out it's all true. We'll talk to him and quite possibly the local MP as well

It's 11.25. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Before all of that, though, it's all about the wealth tax

If you've got 11 million quid in the bank and you can't afford 20 grand in a wealth tax

or if you've got 11 million pounds worth of assets and you can't afford 20,000 pounds

I suppose I'm saying it's a pittance, then it's time you cancelled your Netflix subscription

and stopped eating all that avocado on toast, isn't it? Isn't it? Is it that simple

David's in Majorca. David, what would you like to say? Oh, hi there

I was coming at it from a slightly different angle in that it's, with some people

it's more about how that money will be spent rather than actually it being given

So, you know, if you basically spend it, I mean, we're talking about the reform and migration, etc.

just as one angle. It's like, you know, do you want your money to go to that kind of area and benefits

or would you rather it be spent on a better cause? And therefore, I think partly..

So where in the world do we get to define where our taxes go

Specifically, we can say you can spend it on that, but not on that. What's the precedent for that

I hadn't thought it through that deeply I think it's more of a

we can think it through now so you know you've got somebody on a relatively average income

paying their taxes they'd like to see loads more go to feeding school hungry children than they do to the army

what power do they have over that process agreed agreed I mean but then if you look at the army

and some of the finances there there's more money that goes on pensions than actually spending on defence

so we're against pensions for soldiers now are we not at all Well, what then

But I think... I mean, respectfully, I know you haven't thought it through

so, I mean, that's fair enough. Next time, maybe do. But respectfully, all of the objections to it sound like this, don't they

Well, no, no, I'm absolutely fine paying more, but I just need to know this, that or the other

But none of us ever... You can look at the tax pie chart on the HMRC website

You can see exactly where your taxes go in percentage terms. And the things that populists and far-right figures like to pretend it all goes on

are usually close to negligible. Social care is absolutely huge. So let's say that the majority of your wealth tax

will go on social care. What's the problem with that? Not at all

No issue. With an ageing mother... Do you see what I mean? Yeah, I completely agree

But I think that's... I think where I'm coming from is I think that's some people's objections. It's where it's spent

It's not, though. This is where I'm coming from. I'm saying it's not, though. That's a cop-out

For the reason I've just demonstrated to you is that nobody gets to say

what their tax does and doesn't get spent on. That's the price of being a member of a civilised society

Your governments decide what tax gets spent on, and we elect governments, so you've already got that process

And if 73% or 66% of the population want a wealth tax

then they've decided that they want it. Yeah. For me, it's more a case of if I've got the money

and it's a lot of money in the bank, I mean, you keep referring to 11 million, that would be a lot of money. But I think..

But 20,000 wouldn't be, would it? It wouldn't be, but to your point, you made a really good point earlier in that, you know, is it liquid

You know, is it tied up in... Yeah, but you've got £11 million of taxable assets

You can find £20,000 without even noticing. It's probably down the back of the sofa

You'd hope not, but... I'm not even joking. And thanks for, you know, being a good sport

because I don't think that anyone's got a better argument than you've got. And they do sound like quibbles, if you like, or like wriggles

or, like, weaselly little ways out of doing what I would loosely describe

as your patriotic duty. But I could be wrong. I mean, I really could be wrong

Someone could just come in and say, yeah, but what about this? It's like when we're talking about... Let's talk about it now

So you've got people living in big old houses. Well, not £10 million, though. You're talking about the property tax, and somebody points out

we took about four calls in a row from people in Islington. I'm not joking. They were all actually in Islington

who'd bought relatively modestly priced properties 30, 40 years ago and ended up living in some of the most expensive real estate in the country

and largely mortgage-free. But they don't want to move and they haven't got access to the liquidity

to the liquid assets that David refers to. So I can see that argument

If you bought your house for 40 grand 40 years ago and it's now worth 4 million

and they're going to be taxing you on the worth of your house in excess of a million

So you're paying a small tax on three million. You've got to find that every year. You don't actually have any spec

You might be old and retired. You might be on your own. So there might be another one

There might be a zinger here. There might be a zinger here. It is half past 11

And if you've got a zinger, I want to hear it. After Dominic Ellis brings you the headlines. James O'Brien on LBC

11.33 is the time. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC, where I've got a horrible feeling

that the reason why I haven't had a phone-in about the wealth tax before is because I've been gaslit

So the things I've got in my locker, oh, it's been tried in lots of other places

and it never works. So let's not have a phone-in where it'll just be sort of Jeremy Corbyn fanboys

ringing in to grind their very reasonable axes, but without any substantive progress being made

I've got a horrible feeling I've been gaslit. I'm sitting here thinking

oh, dear, it's just a boring phone-in. It's the opposite. Imagine if I had never talked about Brexit

Chances are you never would have heard of me. Imagine if we hadn't managed to fight our lonely corner

pointing out the absurdity of Boris Johnson or the horrificness of Donald Trump being president

The first time, never mind the second time. And all those people shouting, Trump derangement syndrome

They've all gone quiet now. The Daily Telegraph columnist writing about how Liz Truss's budget

in the words of the Sunday Telegraph editor Alistair Heath, was the best budget I have ever seen

Austerity. Remember? Don't blame the bankers. Do you remember that? Oh, don't blame the bankers for the thing the bank has done

Blame librarians. Blame librarians and youth workers. they're the people, and Sure Start centres

shut down the Sure Start centres We got to save the money somehow just don blame the bankers for losing it all So is the wealth tax just another part of that process My antennae my absolutely faultless antennae have just gone a little bit haywire on this

Of course, you've got 11 million quid, you should be paying 20 grand a year

Of course you're flipping should, it's not even a debate. or is it? Or is it

0345 6060 973 is the number you need. Luke is in Kings Langley

Luke, what made you pick up the phone? Hi, mate. So, I've been doing a bit of thinking about

the whole world tax thing. The point I wanted to make was that when you look back over the

last sort of 80 years, 70, 80 years, you know, post-war we had

higher taxes on the rich and then the following decades, ordinary working people were able to afford houses

you know, a nice life for their children, often on one income

And as the decades went on, taxes were eased on the rich

leading right up to today. And also, when we hit a time of crisis

say, well, you've got 2008 financial crisis and also COVID, where we had quantitative easing

which then after COVID, of course, we saw rising inflation. Yes. Whereas I think in a time of crisis

you need to be taxing the rich more to help the country recover

And, you know, I think we've seen the opposite, really. And... I mean, you're very wise to speak generationally

Operationally, I mean, you know, when the Beatles slung their rooks out of the country

the top tax rate was in the 90s. No one's even talking about going anywhere near that

But you're right, the national mood music was so different that it was felt people who've got the lot should, at this point

put their shoulder to the wheel and push. And this is a relatively tiny amount

This is like 20 grand if you've got 11 million pounds. I'm just going to stay there a second, will you, Luke

All right, and tell me if you think I sound a bit rude. If you don't stop sending me texts saying

please tell James that 2% of £11 million is £220,000, not £20,000

I'm going to ban you from the programme. The whole point is that you get the first £10 million clear

So it's 2% of what you have in excess of £10 million

So £11 million minus £10 million equals, everybody trying to give me a maths lesson

£11 million minus £10 million equals £1 million. And 2% of 1 million is £20,000

So stop. I fully accept that my maths over the years that we've spent together

has occasionally been suboptimal. But I would not make this mistake more than once

And I didn't. So, right. Thank you. Now, go away. Was that all right, do you think, Luke

Do you think I lost my temper a bit there? Or do you think I managed to reel it in? No, no, no. I think that's perfectly reasonable, yeah

So you've got £11 million worth of assets and they're saying, can we have £20,000 a year

Who could possibly say, oh, no, that's not fair. Well, exactly. I would even argue 2% isn't anywhere near enough

Yeah, all right, Jeremy Corbyn. To get people who are on the fence about it

Yes. To more than likely go for it. But, you know, it's not even just like the, you know

the right-wing voters like to use that phrase. No, it's not. Is it Rob Peter to pay Paul, is it

No, it's not. I mean, it is. You're talking about it. This is why I just had that little moment

before you came on where I started thinking, what if I've been gaslit too? I spend my life sticking it to all the people

that fell for all the other things. But what if this is just another one? Is that the public discourse has been so completely defined

and corrupted over the last, as you say, 30, 40, 50 years

that we're now talking about this as if it isn't the most obvious and simple thing imaginable

That's right. I think most problems in our society today can be traced back to wealth inequality. including

education, government spending And if you were a beneficiary of that epic inequality

if you were on the right side of it what would you be telling people to think about welfare claimants and immigrants

Well exactly of course I'd be telling my media outlets that I own

I would be telling them to push those stories Let's go big on the immigrants

won't somebody think of the billionaire Luke, lovely stuff, thank you mate

it's coming up to 2212 you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC, listen that's part of the

problem isn't it, my sort of slightly performative anger a moment ago

about the numbers is that people take that away they thought that's a bit harsh

you've got to find 220 ooh no, so you give people free you

10 million quid clear right, who can possibly argue well someone will

it's 20 to 12 from Kings Langley to Newton Abbott. Jordan's there

Jordan, what would you like to say? Hello, James. Very privileged to speak to you

A little bit nervous. It's not a privilege, mate. Hopefully it'll be a pleasure, but it's never going to be a privilege

Thank you. Thank you. What do you want to say? I just want to say I'm quite into this sort of subject

I've listened to a lot of Gary Stevenson. Obviously, you've had him on full disclosure

Yes. I just wanted to say any of you or your listeners is I'm in favour of a wealth tax

obviously being a fan of Gary Stevenson. And his second-to-last video explains perfectly why wealth tax is very necessary

just explains how governments have basically sold off all their assets since the 80s kind of fracture

and why the need for a redistribution of wealth is really essential

Well, give me your version. What's persuaded you? What are the things that you would argue against somebody saying

Because the people that fascinate me most, and it's probably a little bit unfair to call them forelock tuggers or capped offers

but the people who are never going to be close to having to pay it

who have been happily and successfully persuaded that it's a terrible thing, that it's unfair, that it's wrong

What do you reckon? Well, I think your last call or second to last call explained about the

so obviously after World War II we had high taxes on wealth

and people will be able to afford homes and a decent family life

and that was because we had high taxes on wealthy people but governments

have basically been funding their spending through kind of what Gary Stevenson

puts it, selling off the family gold So they need to get some of that money back, as it were

They need to fill some of those holes. They've just been selling and selling

Now the government literally has no assets left. Whereas when the government had assets

the rich people will lend you money because they know that you've got assets that you can sell to them

Now we're at the point where the government literally has nothing left. They're just funding us on deficits

Now they're not being lent any more money now. That's why we're seeing the welfare state

just essentially being cut to the bone The only way to raise this money is to raise tax It been raised too much on middle classes

So the ideal situation for me would be a wealth tax of sort of 2%

The other thing I wanted to just mention was there's an economist, French economist

I don't know if you've heard of him, called Gabriel Zuckman. Yes, he's written a book about

why we should tax billionaires. He's read a really good, short, brilliant book about how to tax binate

He's basically a designer of the wealth tax in France. And he goes into, so his application is slightly different to what you're saying is 2% on 100 million

But it's a minimum tax. So he says it's not just random

Basically, it's the researchers kind of giving them this idea that anybody who generally

most people with a wealth of below 100 million generally pay at least 2% of their wealth a year on tax

So it's classed as a minimum tax because the researchers showed them that when you kind of go over 100 million

that's when these super rich kind of... That's when you almost become nationless

and move in ways that are mysterious to the rest of us

That's why, I don't know, I forget whether the writer you refer to does this

but that's why many also advocate for an exit tax. I think there might be an exit tax in Norway

That's great stuff, Jordan. Thank you. No hostages points out. What sinks a wealth tax is lobbying

not necessarily logic. Lobbying. Why do you think climate change was denied so successfully for so long

Spoiler alert, lobbying. Why do you think we are still pouring processed food

down our children's necks even as we weekly clock the obesity crisis yeah lobbying why do you think

that uh countries that are undertaking genocide can retain enormous support from other democracies

in in the world answer lobbying i mean it lobbying is the root of almost all of the things that are

against the interests of a general population it's lobbying why do you think brexit happened

Lobbying, lobbying, lobbying. And the wealth tax could be killed by lobbying

The wealthy lobby for the loopholes, the exemptions and the discounts, and they point to the hollowed out tax system

and say, look, it doesn't work. So the sabotage becomes the argument against the policy

So they say, we don't get a wealth tax because everyone will leave. Okay, well, we'll have an exit tax as well

So we'll have an exit tax of 10%. We'll have a wealth tax of 2

on your assets over 10 million, right? If you don't like that and you're going to take your assets somewhere else, we'll have an exit tax of 10%

Do you see what I mean? And that's still barely going to touch the sides of your wealth

But it would also be a reminder of why you decided to live here in the first place

Because the only reason you live in the United Kingdom is because of its billionaire-friendly tax laws

I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you. It's great living here. It's a wonderful country

Wonderful. Especially if you're lucky enough to live in London or Kidderminster. These are the two finest conurbations in the history of humanity

So I just think... The reason why my voice is a bit weird

or why I'm sounding a bit weird, is because I'm having one of those moments where I think I've been gaslit

I think I'm quite bright, right? I like to think sometimes I can see through all the noise

I can see through all the nonsense. I like Gary Stevenson. But why have I pushed these thoughts to one side

Oh, it's a bit more complicated. than that, or maybe things are this, that

or the other, or da-da-da-da-da. Actually, I've been gaslit into thinking that this isn't a no

I think I have, unless you can tell me otherwise, which you are free to do after

this. James O'Brien on LBC. 11.49 is the time you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC

There's, um, I've never stopped there. I've only ever driven past it. A place in

Hounslow that advertises free hot meals. It's just on a normal shop

Parade. Free hot meals for people who are hungry. I keep meaning to pop in and find out what the story is

It's probably got some religious roots or something like that, but there are decent people out there doing their best to do decent things

in very difficult times, and we should all celebrate them. Sadly, not everybody seems to see it that way

Barry Ashley runs the Grumpy Cook Cafe in Hastings and has taken it upon himself to feed the children of struggling families over the school holidays

despite the fact that the local council had elected to withdraw the voucher scheme

that would previously have subsidised the serving up of free meals to hungry children

I think I've got the facts right. But happily I can check, because Barry Ashley from the Grumpy Cook Cafe in Hastings joins me now

Barry, I've not seen your face before, mate and I am similarly cursed with a resting, grumpy face

would I be right in thinking that the cafe is named after you

It is, yes Yes, we have a similar sort of facial cast, I think

but here we are, both smiling so have I got the facts right? is that pretty much how things unfolded

how you found yourself? what is shocking is the response from the head of the council, Andy Woolley

Yes, it all started, it's not the local council's Hastings Borough, but this is East Sussex County

Right. And I picked up on it from when the MP, Helena Dollymore, spoke out on Facebook

And I've always, I've done this for the last five years. So when Marcus Rashford and Tom Kerridge started doing some good things during lockdown, I did my own thing then

And I've continued it since. So I've always offered free breakfast cereal for children in the mornings

They can just come in and help themselves. So when I saw what Helena had to say about what East Sussex had done

I threw all my toys out of the pram and I got rather annoyed

and foolishly I went to Facebook did a video and said right

I'm just going to feed all the children just come to the cafe

lunch is free now but before I'd done that I'd already introduced a scheme

for this summer about, it's like a pay-it-forward scheme where people can pay it forward for a family of four

to take a picnic to the coast or to the park. So again, if they're struggling

because we found out so many children have never been to the beach in a coastal town

Really? Yeah, it's just incredible. So we were doing that and I thought

well, you know, what the hell, let's just make it free all round. So they can eat for free in the cafe

or they can go to the website and choose a family box

and that'll be ready for them to collect the next day. So, I mean, your anger chiefly was about the fact that the vouchers

being taken away. Yeah, it was being taken away, but also in the new document

it actually said that the council must ensure that the poorest children are not going hungry

during the school holidays. But you knew that they were, and that they were more likely to

or much more likely to do so in the absence of this voucher scheme. Well, I thought they would be, but they're not

Because of you. No, no, they have said that, you know, they've got all these schemes running

but they're not actually making sure that the poorest children are being fed

So this is where things get very odd, isn't it? Because you, and indeed the local MP, Helena Dolomore

you recorded your unhappiness about these decisions, and you, I think inevitably, because it would be quite hard to do it without doing so

you directed some of your unhappiness at the council chief, Andy Woolley

And it's what happens next that I think is going to shock my listeners most

So how did he respond to this robust but entirely legitimate criticism

Well, worst of all, he interrupted me. I was just about to settle down to watch the Grand Prix last Sunday

Outrageous. Yeah, and I got a text, I got a WhatsApp message from him

saying that I was inciting hatred because I'd named him personally. You know, the person that leads the council

the public official, I'd actually named him personally. So that was inciting hatred and he was reporting me to the police

Just for naming him, you didn't call him a moron or anything like that

No. Just literally, the council chief is this person and this is his name

And all I was asking for was, what are they doing in regards of Section 44

in the Crisis and Resilience Act? And he names everything except what they're doing there

And then Ms. Dollymore got an email that, I don't know if I've read yours, but he wrote

your continued naming of me personally has led to an increase in online abuse of me personally

and has now reached a point where you could be responsible for inciting hate and potential violence against me

a political official and members of my family, you of all people should be aware of the increased sensitivity

of these sorts of posts since the... And then he references the tragic death of Anne Whittacombe

which we can't talk about in further detail because of the live case. So because..

I mean, he mentioned... I mean, I don't... I knew Anne Whittacombe vaguely. I'm not sure she would necessarily approve of her name being used

in an attempt to close down the naming of an elected... or of a senior politician, a Reform UK politician

As such, I shall be reporting you both to the police and to the Parliamentary Standards Committee

I mean, these are, of course, Nigel Farage's colleagues, they are the great upholders of free speech, they tell us, in this country

And what he's objecting to is you telling people his name. Yes

And I got the same email as Helena got. I thought you did

It's just that he wasn't reporting me to the Speaker of the House

So she gets reported to the Speaker of the House, you just get reported to the old Bill

Yeah. And then I wasn't going to... I was just going to ignore it

I thought, I'm not going to make a scene of it. I thought, shall I contact Helena

And I didn't. Right. But during the time I was having that thought

Helena contacted me because she was concerned that, you know, I'd be worried about this action that he was taking

So, yeah. And she reassured you, I imagine, that the fellow didn't have a leg to stand on

She did. And here we are. Have you heard, I don't know if Eleanor spoke to you before you came on

what Councillor Woolley told us when we got in touch with him earlier today? No, go on

He told us that he's not reported you to the police or Miss Dollimore to the police

and that no one should face a police report for criticising a council decision. He also said that Mr Ashley's cafe

is doing a good thing by feeding children. It's almost like the media still has some power in this country, Barry, isn't it

He said his contact with Sussex Police was through a specific route to support elected members who receive threats and abuse

which no one is suggesting you or Helena Dolimore had issued towards him

or who had directed at him, but he says that he and his family have faced abuse in recent weeks

He made clear that he does not hold you or Ms Dolimore responsible for the abuse

even though, well, we read that thing that he sent to you, and said no child in East Sussex should go hungry this summer

So there we go. Game over. Well, next time, James, I'll just call you and Eleanor

see if you can get some answers for me. Well, there we go. It's just ridiculous

There was one wonderful bit that you did, because I thought, actually, that I was the only person left in England who uses this phrase

Do you know what I'm talking about? I know what you're talking about, yeah

and I will own up. I got it from you. Did you

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, this is terrible news because that means I might still be the only person

in the country. Finally, Councillor Woolley, should you go for re-election into office again

I hope voters wrap your sandwiches and those of your party in a road map

If people want to support what you're doing down in Hastings, how do they find out more

How do they get in touch, Barry? um go to our website grumpy cook.co.uk and once they hit on the landing page it will take them

it will take them there and um all the the response has been incredible absolutely incredible

it's come from not it's all around the country um all from like pages that i follow on social

media who I thought would never ever hear of me in a lifetime. And I'm getting donations

from abroad as well. So it's quite incredible that when you choose to starve children, that people

get rather upset. They do. And then attack the people who are trying to feed them

Barry, it's been a pleasure. Let's hope that no one ever wraps your

sandwiches in a roadmap, mate. Mind how you go, Barry Ashley there

who runs the Grumpy Cook Cafe down in Down in Hastings, as you heard

I think we can all agree that, you know, abusing public figures is a terrible thing to do

At the time at 12 noon, sorry, I just lent on the wrong button. I think we can all agree that abusing public figures

is an absolutely terrible thing to do. But of course, Barry didn't call Councillor Woolly names

He didn't insult him. He didn't say anything unpleasant. No, no, no, that was that moron

That was that moron, O'Brien, that comes on this channel after you

and no wonder my security details, as big as it is, is because of people like him

There it is. This fellow down in Hastings trying to link valid criticism

of him and his decisions, as he subsequently admitted, to the tragic death of Anne Widdicombe and Nigel Farage there

claiming that telling people what he doing and what he like somehow endangers his safety and that going right back to shortly after he helped incite the Farage riots after those horrible murders in Southport The other thing that story reminded me of with regards to councillors sort of who were on Nigel Farage ticket was the extraordinary scenes at Kirkley council back in May of this year

when the recently elected Councillor Sarah Wood kind of said the quiet part out loud

I don't understand the Constitution. I have not had sufficient time to read that as yet

I don't understand what standing orders are, what they're made up of, nor do I understand what an amendment is

There is a possibility that we might vote for something that we don't understand at the moment

and whereas ignorance is not a defence, risk should be mitigated. So there it is

I don't know what figure of speech to deploy at that point, but, you know, that's democracy in action

and indeed freedom of speech. It's 12.01. James O'Brien on LBC. It's five minutes after 12

and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I didn't know that

So I read that story in the Mirror last week about Barry at the grumpy cook cafe down in Hastings

and I literally read that line about having your sandwiches wrapped in a roadmap

And I get so many messages off you every time I use that phrase, saying, are you sure that's a figure of speech change

I've never heard it before. There's an old Irish colleague of mine who used to use it all the time

as a figure of speech for getting fired, the idea being that you get your sandwiches to eat on the journey

and they're wrapped in a roadmap so that you can find your way home. You get your sandwiches wrapped in a roadmap

as a figure of speech or a euphemism for getting sacked from work

But I get sent probably half a dozen messages saying, what are you talking about

Either saying, what does that mean? Or saying, I've never heard that one before

Are you sure it's actually in common parlance? So when I read in the Daily Mirror last week

at the end of last week, that Barry, the cafe owner down in Hastings

who'd been threatened with a report to the police in response to criticisms of the local council leader

the East Sussex County Council leader, when I read that one of the things that he was being attacked for

was suggesting that he hopes that voters wrap your sandwiches in a rogue map

I found myself thinking, I do this thing, right? So I found myself thinking, oh, I wonder if he got that off me

And then my inner voice, or Eleanor, if I had shared it with her, would go, oh, for God's sake, it's not all about you, you know

God for goodness, you know, people are perfectly capable of arriving at figures of speech that you use a lot without actually having got it off you, you know, O'Brien, you irredeemable

And it turns out that it was, I had to ask him. I hope you understood why

So it's a lovely phrase, wasn't it? Isn't it? And I'll be using it again

We've missed it for a while. And I forgot to do the Steinbeck quote in the first hour, which is a reflection upon, or the second hour, on why people who are never even going to be wealthy have been persuaded to be opposed to a wealth tax

John Steinbeck had a theory on this. He said that there are many..

There is no such thing as poverty in Dust Bowl era America

Just temporarily frustrated millionaires. So even if you're skint, one day you'll be a millionaire

Therefore you are on the side of the millionaires when it comes to questions of taxation

It's eight minutes after twelve, and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. We've got the results of the Bob

My crack team of statisticians have been calculating and crunching, and the Burnham Optimism Barometer

I'm going to tell you in a moment, if I remember, I'm going to build up a little bit of tension

the Burnham Optimism Barometer has delivered its second reading, the second finding, and stay tuned to find out where the figure is now

Last week it was eight, so we crunched millions of entries, millions of people

I can't say that, apparently. Obviously, there's only one and a half million people listening in total

All right. Many, many, tens of tens, tens of tens of people

have been in touch with their figure. A mark out of ten for how optimistic you're currently feeling about Andy Burnham

Last week, the figure was eight. This week, the figure... Have we got any music or anything like that

We haven't, have we? We haven't got any, like, production. We've got no jingles. We've got nothing

All right, I'll do it myself. This week the figure is... Last week the figure was eight

This week the figure is... Eight. Again, it's also eight

Two eights. Two fat ladies. Can you say that anymore? Back at the bingo, it would have been two fat ladies, wouldn't it? 88

66. Clickety-click. I put my teeth in and say... Anyway. We turn our attention next to Congo Chris Philp

Why does he call him Congo Chris Philp? Google it. Congo Chris Philp is back in the news

saying that he's going to solve 36,000 crimes a year. That, while doing that and invading France single-handedly

that is quite a busy week for Chris Philp. Not only is he going to war against France

he is also planning to solve 36,000 more crimes a year by telling police to track down stolen phones and bicycles

There are two ways into this. One is quite funny, one probably isn't

The first is police officers. How do you feel? Because what I'm doing is I'm sitting here reading this story from Congo Chris

about how he would set new standards in policing. It's almost like these people forgot that they were in charge for 14 years, isn't it

They've only been out for 10 minutes. I know what we could do. We could get the police to track down stolen..

How long were you in power for? 14 glorious years. Did you do this when you were... Nope

We were far too busy doing important stuff like stopping the boats

painting over murals and shutting Sure Start centres and youth... So anyway

Congo Crisfeld, 14 years of Tories in power, never occurred to any of them to tell

the police to track down stolen phones and bicycles. Stolen phones and bicycles. And, you know

he might be an irredeemable fool but I have something of a soft spot

for one element of what he has been saying. But too often

and the police do nothing with that information, and the crime is written off, while the property sits at the location everybody involved in can see on a map

Now, that's not happening on 36,000 occasions, but mathematics is not Congo Chris's strong point

Well, actually, that's not fair. Geography is not Congo Chris's strong point

but he's not brilliant at mathematics either. So, we hear stories anecdotally

and I guess it qualifies as anecdotally if we've heard it on this programme

We hear stories of people who have... I mean, it happened to me, actually

in Ireland with one of my children and I could see her phone

after it had been half inch down at Temple Bar one night

and I could see her phone out in Wexford somewhere. So you know some fella's got her son

possibly a young woman, possibly an old woman. I don't know why I'm being ageist and sexist

A human. Possibly, well, it could have been a... Probably a human has got my daughter's stolen phone

and we could see it on the thing. And you're sort of thinking, and this is obviously not a British police force

you're sort of thinking, well surely if I can find it My wife lost her phone once And she did actually lose it It wasn stolen This was in the very early days of the tracking technology

and I kind of tracked it down to a relatively small corner of Chiswick down by the railway line

I knocked on someone's door, and they said they didn't have it. I brought a bottle of wine with me as a kind of clever little move, you see

Like a charming little... And it wasn't them. And so, you know, it's not entirely reliable

that little thing you see on your screen. And then, as I was walking home

someone rang me from her phone, because I'd put one of those emergency messages on it

and it was actually just on the other side of the road. It was somebody on the other side of the road that had the phone

so I went and I gave them the bottle of wine, I rescued my wife's phone, and I took it home

Now, the reason I did that is not because I'm a crime-fighting brave man like Congo Chris Philp

The reason I did that is because I knew she'd lost it

so I knew she'd lost it in the street and because she dropped her bag

and anyway I won't bore you with the details went under some leave, something like that

got a bit broken but not broken enough that they couldn't read the screen so because I knew that it hadn't been robbed

I was probably more confident to go because if it had been robbed and I knocked on their door and said

hello, Sherlock O'Brien here I believe that you may be in possession

of my lovely wife's telephone and they'd just say no I'm not clear off or I'll beat your face in

or something like that. But because I knew it had been lost, I went round and I found it

I found the phone. Not, I grant you, as a direct consequence of having the tracking technology

but I was very, very close. And I don't really understand why

when you can see your phone, your laptop, or even perhaps your car

Didn't Giles Corrin write an article about his car? Or your bike

Why it is not easier for the police to get hold of them. But here's where me and Congo Chris differ, all right

I'm pretty sure that most police officers listening to this programme are not sitting there going

Oh, yes. Good grief. Thank the Lord for Congo, Chris. We can use the tracking technology on the phones and the laptops

We can go and find the stolen gear using our... Oh, thank the Lord for Congo, Chris

He's just made my job infinitely easy. So, on the one hand, I'm thinking the police are already aware of this

on the other hand, and this is where I might be wrong, this is where Congo Chris might be clever

and I might be a little bit dozy, or indeed, as Nigel Farage said on national radio

a moron. But remember, you shouldn't be insulting people or speaking ill of people

in the modern political climate. I think... I think that the police not only already know about

this technology that's available. But I think that there is a very good reason

why they don't do it. Now, it could be resources. It could be simple logistics

They certainly don't encourage you to do it, to you go around and try and secure your own property

Although I think the temptation in many cases, and I may in fact ask you what happened

when you decided to do it yourself in a moment. But I don't think, here's the thing

and this is where I might be a sweet summer child. This is perhaps where I'm being naive, and Congo Chris is the clever one

I don't think the police are doing it for reasons of laziness

incompetence, or failure to understand the modern technology that's available. I just want a police officer to tell me why you're not doing this already

All right? 03456060973. And I'm even going to leave the politics out of it

I'm going to ignore the fact that for 14 years, Congo, Chris's party were in charge

and they didn't do this, despite the fact that the technology was around for all of that period

There is something, and I speak from experience now, there is something uniquely frustrating

about being able to see your stolen goods on a screen and saying to the police, they've got my laptop

It's the flats around the corner, for example. Even when we got burgled back in..

How old's my oldest now? Good Lord. 20 years ago. And the police said to us

it's one of two or three households on this estate who've probably done it

They're responsible for almost all of the break-ins. And I said, well, can't you just go and knock on their door and go in

And they said, no, we can't. We can't just turn up because they are known burglars

and demand, you know, and search their house. So there were reasons back then

Today, it's different. You've got just cause, haven't you? If I hold up my foot, look, here it is

There it is. It's in number 17, Acacia Avenue. They've got my phone. They've got my phone

Number 17, Acacia Avenue. Can you send an officer to come with me

to number 17, Acacia Avenue? And then, what do you think actually happens

That's what I want to get to. I want to get to the reason why the police don't do it

That's 36,000 thefts, according to Congo Chris. If you don't know why we call him Congo Chris

just Google it. that's 36,000 how many are likely to actually involve somebody

opening the door fingers McGreevy the well known thief the well known pickpocket

opening the door and going oh bang to rights Gov you got me you dumbed me up like a kipper

and then handing over a pillowcase full of phones I just I think it must be

a little bit more complicated than Congo Chris allows so the reason why we have air tags

and the reason why we use Find My is so that we can find stuff that we've lost and track stuff down

I don't think it's so that we can solve crimes. So here are your two questions, OK

Question number one, why don't the police do it already? 0345 6060 973

Because it might be a no-brainer that Congo Chris has accidentally stumbled into

Why don't the police do it already? 0345 6060 973. and then on a much lighter note

hopefully, I mean goodness knows it might have some grim responses but I just

want to know how you've used this technology yourself, I love these stories

do you remember the one, didn't that fella what happened Eleanor, he sold his phone

but the bloke who bought it was a scammer and somehow the money

was in his account but not in his account but he had the bloke's address because he'd already sent them

the phone when he realised that the money hadn't landed so he drove I'd like to think the entire length of the country

I can't remember the exact details, but I think it was all the way from Land's End to John O'Groats

He drove all the way from Land's End to John O'Groats. And when he got there, he tried to persuade the postman

So he got there while the postman was arriving to deliver the phone that this bloke had stolen off him

by somehow making it look like there was money in his account when there wasn't

And the postman said, I can't give you somebody else's... I can't remember how the story ended

but I think it involved him chasing the postman around the streets of John O'Groats

and then beating him over the head with a soft parcel until he surrendered the stolen..

I forget the exact details, but I like stories about how you

have used the tracking technology to track... I don know why I was searching for a different verb there You have used the tracking technology to track your property either stolen or lost all right That what I want And obviously you know you know how this show works

Don't just ring in and say, oh yeah, I used the technology and I found my phone on a bench and I went home again

I want a good story on 03456060973. But here's an example from Troy

This is not what I want. Dear James, a few days ago, I lost my house keys in my house

and I tracked them down using an air tag to the washing machine. that's not what we want

that's not a good story so I want to know why the police don't already do this

because Congo Chris thinks he's spotted a fantastic loophole in the way that you've been

conducting your duties for the last 16 years why don't the police already do this

and what happened when you did did it work I'll take stories of failure

disaster or success 03456060973 it's 20 past 12 James O'Brien on LBC

What's the biggest thing you've put an air tag on as well? I know cars have got tracking technology

so they're pretty big. But what's the big... Could you put an air... What could you put on a mask? What's mask

What do most of us own that's really big that isn't a car? Not a lot, really

Do they? Garden furniture? Could you put an air tag on garden furniture? What if you've got a really expensive tree in a pot in your garden

or something like that? Anyway. Why don't the police already do it

Because Congo Chris Philp thinks he's had a genius idea. and what happens when you did use the technology

that he's talking about in an article, you guessed it, for the Daily Telegraph, about why the police..

Hey, I've got a great idea. The police could solve loads of crimes by using..

Find my iPhone. Michael's in Merton. Michael, what have you got? Hi there

So, I'm a police officer for 12 years, and I also lead a team of police officers

who investigate phone snatches and everything. Oh, yes. The reason why we're not able to just go into somebody's house

because the phone's tracking there is because it's just not feasible. How dare you

That's the attitude that's brought this country to his knees. Congo, Chris, says it's feasible

So stick that in your pipe and smoke it. Oh, politicians telling police are so proud to do their job

That's not you. So the tracking isn't that great, especially if you live in a house in London

London? The iPhone could track to block a council flat. Yes. And you can't narrow it down

it's not possible or it tracks to a residential street, mid-terrace houses

it gives you a radius of 10-20 metres you can't just go around

searching people's houses because technology says something could be there I'm sure you wouldn't like it

if at least just turned up on your doorstep and asked to search your house

It's actually quite a funny question there isn't it? Because I remember an awful lot of people who were adamant

that they'd be absolutely fine. A lot of sort of white men of my kind of vintage saying

I wouldn't mind being stopped and searched several times a day, even though I was completely innocent

And then when during lockdown, police officers started asking people like me whether or not they were actually going about their lawful business

suddenly you had more rattles being thrown out of more middle-aged white prams than I've ever seen before in my life

So, yeah, I can say to you, I wouldn't mind you knocking on my door in uniform or pandered

with one of those helpful battering rams in your hand, as long as I was able to prove immediate

And also, how could I prove to you I didn't have it? Exactly, exactly

And it takes a while to search a house for something as small as the mobile phone. Especially if you've hidden it

Yeah, so I'm sure you wouldn't mind me being there for two, three hours searching your house

Yeah, and of course, those are two or three hours when you and your team could be out doing something else

Exactly. Or something more productive or more likely to actually produce a result

So, I mean, I'm going to let you in on a secret, officer

I thought you might say that. And I've gone back to Congo Chris's article

to think maybe we're being a little unfair on him. Maybe he, too, is possessed of enough intelligence

to work out for himself why you and your colleagues are not already doing the thing that he seems to be suggesting

And I thought I'd go back to his article and we can establish whether or not there is a little bit more to it

than meets the eye or whether or not we've slightly misrepresented him. Here you go

The police should always be on the side of the victim and should focus relentlessly on catching more criminals

Every case closed with no prosecution chips away at that. So here's the bit I'd like you to respond to

We need to restore some common sense to policing and ensure that crime has consequences

This plan will help do that. So that's you told. it's not that easy because it's not the role of the police that dish out consequences that's what

the court's for our role is to gather the evidence and are you suggesting that congo

chris philp has completely forgotten how the criminal justice system is constituted and designed

slightly slightly 36 800 more crimes a year some people listening will be thinking yeah all right

so you can't do the ones in blocks of flats or in densely populated areas and i kid you not on this

one and to be fair it was the irish police not the british police so it doesn't really matter

but when my daughter's phone disappeared we got got half inched in dublin and ended up somewhere

in wexford it did appear to be in quite an isolated rural area so could you have gone and got that one

um no uh because in order to actually forcefully go in and search somebody's house you need some

sort of legal authority to do so. If somebody's been arrested, a senior officer can authorise that

If somebody hasn't been arrested, then it'll be up for us to go to the magistrate court

to get a warrant to search. So it's not as simple as Congo Christian

No, how dare you call him Congo Chris. It'd be awful if that were to catch on

Thank you, Michael. And, you know, I'm not making light of a serious subject

I've been a victim of theft and burglary myself, and I know how horrible it is, and I know how frustrating it is when people think it should be easier to recover their stolen goods

But here's something else I know, as a consequence of having spoken to police officers, both in the course of my professional duties and my personal life

they are very frustrated by it too, Congo Chris. They possibly are even more frustrated by it than you are

So what the Conservatives are going to do is mandate three investigative measures, he says

in order to give the public more confidence to report crimes. there was an act of parliament in 2014 under which the home secretary lost the ability to

issue such instructions without the say-so of the college of policing who wants to guess which party

was in power in 2014 when the home secretary was stripped of the powers to issue the instructions

that the conservative shadow home secretary congo chris philp is pledging to reintroduce

Do you think Congo Chris Philp knows who was in power when the powers that he is pledging to introduce

were actually removed? Yeah, you're right. It was the Conservative Party. Dan's in Brocham

Dan, Brocham even. Dan, what do you reckon? I was just catching what Michael just said there

There's currently no legislation that allows us to enter a property to search for property

Congo Chris Philp's seen it on Find My iPhone. I know. That trumps the law

Come on, mate. Everybody knows. That's more important than the law. Habius corpus, jurisprudence

what some other Latin phrases. I'll just stand on your doorway with Congo, Chris

holding up your phone, and I'll go, put your trousers on, son, you're nicked. I wish it was so simple

And I was saying to the person, there's currently, I'm sure there's a piece of legislation going through at the moment

that's not in force yet, but it'll allow police officers to have a power of entry

where it's been tracked from such devices, like your tags and then the find my iPhone

and all that such. But it has to be authorised by an inspector, and as long as you can guarantee

that, at least in that house that you're going to be going in, then

you'll get that authorisation from an inspector. But it's not in power yet

and I don't know who started the bill or who started it, and I have a feeling it was

Labour, but I'm not entirely sure. We definitely know it was the Conservatives who removed the power

of the Home Secretaries to issue these instructions, probably for perfectly reasonable and pragmatic reasons

And that, I think that Michael really nailed this down. It's going to be almost impossible to be certain

that it's behind that door. Yeah, you run into the issues of

you don't know if someone's just throwing it into their garden and it's just pinging the house in general

and then you knock on the door and if it's five people that live there, you're not arresting all five to guarantee to find one phone

No, and also... That's unrealistic. Yeah, and some people might have just picked up a phone in the street and taken it home

and they're planning on maybe they're going to keep it for themselves, or maybe they're going to hand it in. There's just so much to do

So here it is. Here are the three things that the Conservatives robbed the Home Secretary of the ability to do

which the Conservative Shadow Home Secretary says he's going to bring back. Forces would be required to always run a suspect's image through the facial recognition database

You have to follow up the geolocation signals coming from stolen goods

such as a Find My iPhone signal, and then you have to follow up the stolen goods

that are seen advertised for sale online. I'm not massively opposed to the final one

although, again, in terms of man hours and likelihood of success, it's probably a little bit unrealistic

But as far as I can tell, Dan, you're a police officer as well, I think. I was a police officer, yeah

So Chris Philp, Shadow Home Secretary, is sitting there thinking that you lot

have never thought of this. It's amazing because we follow up... on everything else

but we just apparently don't follow up on any of these. And I was sat in my car when you were going

like, why don't police just do this? And I was just sat screaming, going, we've got no power of entry

Like, there's nothing that allows us to get in. And if someone said to me

right, my phone's pinging here, it's going to be in one of these two houses

I'll be like, sorry, I've just got no power of entry. I have to go to a magistrate. And if you imagine

it's two o'clock in the morning, someone's drunk, they've picked up a phone

and they've forgotten they've picked it even up. until the morning. I can't do anything to help them

And if that drunk person walks into a station, one of the few stations that are now left in London

and goes, I found this phone. He's like, great. We have no idea who it belongs to

You just have to leave it. I mean, I suppose no one's going to make your way into an area and pick it

I got a Deliveroo driver, Dan, who had my phone once, and I met him in the McDonald's car park

And in fact, he handed it in to some police officers in Brentford who were part of a

local scheme to do more visible policing and they rang my wife's

phone from my phone. It was on that emergency thing where you press the button

and I just want to make it clear that they weren't in the McDonald's car park

They were on the other side of the road doing important work. But the delivery driver

but that's luck of the draw, isn't it? They were using the fine mic. So anyway

Congo Chris, back to the I'd say back to school, but he still

hasn't swatted up on the geography that he got wrong on Question Time, so quite where he is on this

I do not know. It's 12.32, and Amelia Cox has your headlines

James O'Brien on LBC. 12.35 is the time you are listening to

James O'Brien on LBC. There are, I mean, circumstances in which the police might be able to use this technology

in order to track down stolen goods, but my goodness me, it's only taken two calls

from two coppers to make it clear why Congo Chris's wizard wheezes

Congo Chris's bright ideas aren't worth the paper they're printed on. Although, given that they're printed in the Daily Telegraph

they probably are worth it. 12.35 is the time. Will's in Camberwell. Will, what made you pick up the phone

Well, I've got a big problem of forgetting stuff and losing stuff. You and me both

Misplacing is my preferred word. Yeah, I misplace a lot of stuff

I looked at the credit card. Yeah. Yeah, if you say lost, it's almost too defeatist, isn't it

It is, yeah. Temporarily misplaced. Yes. So I've got AirTags everywhere. Oh, like piercings

Almost. I mean, when I got them, it was four for 100 quid

Okay. I only really needed two. So now it's like, what can I not AirTag

Yeah. But in the early days, I put it in my wallet

and I was temporarily out of work. JSA gave me an appointment at 9 o'clock some morning

It's only half an hour away. So I got up at sort of 8.40

I'm going to be late, phone, wallet, keys Ran there, did the talk

Walking back, I'm like, phone, wallet Phone keys A wallet, did I bring that

Or did I dream it So I ran back to the place, said sorry

Did I leave my wallet here, no, no sign And I looked on the air tag

And it just sort of said 45 Teckham Road You just made that up, right 100

100% true story. No, no, you made up the address. No, that was what it said on the thing

You can't go around giving people burglars' addresses. Well, the story will..

Whoa, whoa, number 23, Acacia Avenue, was it? Oh, OK, yeah, carry on

I ran back, because I just run, right? So I just rocked it. Yeah

And then I got back there, and now it sort of says 54. And you think, oh, I swear it said 45

Maybe I misremembered it. Yeah. Yeah. So it's on the move. It's on the Congo

Chris felt we'd be on the walkie-talkie immediately. He would be, yeah, get the SAS in

But I just a bit naive thinking it can be that short And I get to 54 whatever and now it says 22 peckham road i thinking oh my god different road it is moving yeah uh and then i got the old tracy thing out and it said no signal

but like weak signal no signal so i'm running down the road and all of a sudden it says weak signal

and then it's like less weak signal medium signal and then it's like this is 12 meters away from you

Ten, eight, seven, four and a half. And up on the right was this little chicken shop thing

Right. I glanced in, three beefy blokes laughing and joking at one side

Yeah. Opposite, really slender, late middle-aged lady. Right. With like four massive Morrison's bags packed with loaves of bread

All bread. Just bread. Just all bread. Bread and food. Oh, other goods as well

Okay. I can't decide. I'll let other people decide. I'm engaged by this story

I was beginning to lose interest but then you did the countdown and I got really excited again

but I'm going to let other people decide whether or not you're taking too long to tell it I'm not going to judge you

alright carry on Will I'll rush it we're near the conclusion alright carry on

and I'm new to London it's only been here 10 years from the countryside

a bit like yourself but I'm thinking I could get stabbed here and I realise the phone's getting closer and closer

it's the woman with the food and I said excuse me madam sorry to be a pain I think you may have found my wallet

I may have just dropped it. She sort of looked at me like a look of wrath

picked up her stuff and said, F you and your, no, I haven't seen your wallet. And then walked down the road and she sort of said

all right, here it is then, here it is. And then I took it off her

And then, but she carried on and then quite speedily, but then she stopped, threw the bags down

Yeah. She was about 20 metres away. And as I get closer, she's actually crying. Oh no

She's like, I'm really, I'm really sorry. Yeah, I saw it on the floor and I've not eaten for ages

I was going to steal it and I used your debit card to buy all this food

I'm really sorry. And here's your driving licence. Here's your oyster. She's taking stuff out of your wallet

So you'd got the wallet and now she's giving you the content. Exactly

And we had a little chat. We had a little hug. We had a little hug. And I thought, yeah, it's really tough times for people, isn't it

Well, blimey. I mean, I like this story. I don't know how relevant it is to the phoning that I was supposed to be conducting

but I feel better for knowing it. So, and you let her keep..

The relevant bit as well, though. What? Go on. No, I got the cash back as well

because it had been stolen, so the banks gave it back. But when I got my bike registered

and I told this story to a copper, he said, you shouldn't have risked the..

You could be imminently stabbed. But they said, if you're standing outside an establishment with people in

and you're getting a positive thing, call us on 999. We'll be there in about a minute

because for the cops, it's like they can solve a crime. Yeah, if it's an absolute..

stone cold open and shut case kind of thing. And of course it's not going to be in most

cases. So, I mean, again, memo to Congo Chris Philp, they already do

the stuff that's feasible and plausible. They don't do the stuff that's unfeasible

and implausible. And you let her keep all the food. I know you got your money back, but you didn't

like, just have a little look inside and think, well, I'll take those anyway. Just those biscuits

No. I know, it was all brown bread and I like white bread, so..

I like that story. Yeah, I mean, as I say i'm not sure how relevant it is to the phone in that i was supposed to be having but

you know who's counting we'll take care stay safe 12 41 is the time i've got the clip of congo chris

that sounds like an agreeable if you does anyone want to hear it do you know why we call him congo

chris or has that already been established so you think i exaggerate when i introduce things into

common parlance there i was reading the daily mirror at the end of last week lovely bloke down

in hastings got a cafe having a little bit of a pop at the local councillor who's taken away the

vouchers that let hungry children have free school meals. Barry is the man of

whom I speak and I read in the paper, oh you should I hope you get your sandwiches

wrapped in a road map soon and I thought to myself, God, I thought I was the only person that said that and lo and behold, old Barry, he got it off me. So Congo

Chris will catch on. It will stick but maybe it needs a little bit of a

reminder as to why we call Congo Chris, Congo Chris. I come from a neighboring

country called Congo if you know geographically that is located right next door to Rwanda and right now in Goma there's a genocide going on and

there's such a big conflict going on with people from Rwanda so had my family

members come from Goma on as on the crossing right now would they then be

sent back to the country that they're supposedly warring Rwanda does that make

any sense to you no I think there's an exclusion on people from Rwanda being

sent from Rwanda they're from Congo they're supposedly warring these people from Rwanda

are they then going to be sent to Rwanda if they came here on a crossing from from yeah

would people be sent from well Rwanda is a different country of Congo isn't it it's a different

country yes it is yes definitely if they come from a warden in Congo would they then be sent to Rwanda

1242 is the time so that is why Congo Chris is known as Congo Chris uh and he's in Canvey and

Essex. Andy, what do you reckon? Hello, James. Thank you very much. First time caller

You're very welcome. Ex-police officer of 19 years, and then I turned private

investigator. Your caller told me not to give any names or anything, so I'll only refer to

the incident. So, I was employed by a boxer, a famous boxer

because his partner had had her car broken into, and basically they wanted to find all the materials

that had been stolen out of the car, so I suggested we use the Apple Air

tag, which they found, and it come to an address. Hang on a minute. Why did you tell him

not to tell? Everyone wants to know who the boxer is now. I've been told. No, I know you have

I'm just having a team meeting, mate. I'll be back in a second. Why can't we find out

who the boxer is? Did he tell you off that? Okay, I'll find out after. Everyone else can just

speculate. Carry on, Andy. Yeah, and the police wouldn't deal with it because of what you've said

before with the powers, but these airpods were flashing up at this particular

property, so I went to the property as a private investigator I actually went as a delivery driver

to get the door open, so obviously I didn't want any aggression at the front door, so I knock on the door

the door's open, it's answered by a man, and I said, actually I'm here because

there's airpods flashing up in your house we would like them back along with all the belongings

from this person, we know that the AirPods are here as are the other stuff And as I talking to this person another man comes down the stairs and points a gun at me So I grabbed the first man Is that the first time you had a gun pointed at you

No, it's not. I was on firearms in the army in the police. I can tell. It's like we've got a secret code

Yeah. Yeah. It's gone. Rather than running back, I then jumped forward across the threshold, grabbed the boat, put him in the neck hold

and whispered in his face that if anyone's going to get shot today, it's going to be him and not me

the police service was called by my opposer that was with me

and they said move down the road I said I understand 100 metres yet

move down the road with him so this bloke that I detained because obviously I had a gun pointed at me

I used him as a shield moved down the road about an hour and a half later

when the firearms had finished incidentally they did find the firearm that had been chugged in the fence

and the bloke with firearms had run down the road me and my two colleagues got nicked for kidnap Oh

Oh, really? What, convicted? No, I pleaded guilty to a Section 3 or 3 public order offence

What should you have done differently, then? Well, I mean, you can't plead it

but I had a body camera on as well. But because of other things in my life

I just, I took that because I didn't want to go to troll for kidnap

No, fair enough, fair enough. Because they see ex-police officers as vigilantes, and that's why they push harder on us

But my point I'm making is if anybody does something, Don't track it down. Please don't track it down because you never know

I mean, I'm a professional and I still had a gunpoint at me so I did what was necessary

Yeah. And now I've got a single conviction of Section 3 of Frey

Good Lord. But I just want people to be really careful, James. Well, thank you for that

And, I mean, it's a fairly shocking denouement, isn't it? I mean, to a largely quite mischievous phone-in

I wasn't expecting anything that serious to pop up. But I should have done, shouldn't I? Because, of course, you could be dealing with some fairly nasty criminals

when you are tracking down your goods to where you think they are

Just a quick word then on Chris Philp thinking that your former colleagues

and you when you were still in the force wouldn't have thought of this. I personally, as a police officer, if I'd had a report

I mean, before we start investigating, it's always nice to get a statement, but potentially, why can't we go and knock on the door and say

look, we can go out and do investigations, and I don't understand why we don't do that

But again, I understand, you know, generally you need to get a warrant to go, but people are never going to get your warrant

And you need to be sure it's got the, that you're knocking on the right door

I mean, in the case you described, there's no doubt that it is behind that door

Then I guess, I think a lot of the time they probably would do something

Everyone's getting in touch with stories about things they've seen on the telly where you can, in some circumstances

use the technology to your benefit. but the idea that the police are just choosing not to every day

yeah, that takes some swallowing. Stay safe, Andy. I mean, I'm glad you didn't tell me who the boxer is

given how the story ended. It's almost like Eleanor knows what she's doing. 12.47 is the time

Speaking of consummate professionals, I think Natasha Clarke will be with us after this

I'm hearing reports. I said to Eleanor this morning, I said, what do you mean a press conference

She said, Faris is doing a press conference, and I said, I bet he isn't. I said, I bet you the questions are very, very carefully..

And I made a joke about a certain journalist who works for GBBs

and I said, I bet they only ask him to ask questions. And unless I am being horribly misinformed

then the identity of at least one of the, quote, journalists, end quote

who was permitted to ask Nigel Farage a question after months of hiding from journalists

I'm afraid that I would not have put that in my comedy script on the grounds of implausibility

like no one's going to believe that he was that pathetic. I think that he actually was

James O'Brien on LBC. Well, sometimes my inbox surprises me. I think you're sending me things

And like 6, 7, 8, 10, 14, 263 people send me the same thing

And I'm staring at it. And I'm thinking, why are you sending me that? Why is everybody sending me the words Isabel Oakeshott

And I'm thinking, oh, yes, because I said a moment ago that Farage took a question from somebody

who is highly unlikely to be asking him anything difficult. So you're all..

I think she's married to Lee Anderson, isn't she? So you're all sending me the name of Lee Anderson's wife

who also, I think, does a bit of journalism, although she's currently an economic migrant in Dubai

It's so hard to keep up with it. No, it wasn't her. Natasha Clarke, LBC's political editor

didn't get a question at the Reform UK, quotes, press conference, end quotes

where the unelected bureaucrat Zia Yusuf was strutting his funky stuff. But this chap did

This chap, I actually know this chap's name because he got into a bit of bother here once when..

So Rahim Kassam got a question. I know, it's really upsetting for the mainstream media

And you didn't. We didn't, I know. Lots of people didn't, were very upset. He used to be Farage's consigliere

He was literally on the payroll. He's a very close advisor of Nigel Farage and does work with him on a regular basis

He's been with him in Clacton for the past few days, according to his own social media

But he works for an American media. He doesn't even go here. He works for something called the National Pulse

So he's giving questions to foreign media and not to hard-working British-based..

OK, anyway, so what was this all about? Yes, so Reform UK launching their plans today

They say that this is going to stop illegal migration in the channel by essentially forcing the Royal Navy to..

Yadda yadda yadda. What about the stuff in the Sunday Times yesterday? OK, I'll skip the small talk

That was the reason why they were having the press conference. He's also been talking utter gibberish about social housing

but he's been told that this is gibberish on the last 74 times that he's made the same claims about social housing going to immigrants

And he's obviously not interested in correcting the record, so we won't bother doing it again now

So yesterday's report in the Sunday Times questions the fact that he decided to return to politics when he claims he decided to return to politics

Yes, so there's obviously lots of questions going on about reforms, politics and financial

discussions about that £5 million from Christopher Harbourn and when it was given to Nigel Farage

and under what pretenses Obviously he has said that he doesn need to declare that There were reports in the Sunday Times yesterday that Nigel Farage struck what they call a secret deal to return as the leader of reform months before the general election So therefore would undermine their claim that he wasn thinking about returning to politics at the time that he received this gift from Christopher Harbourn

Nigel Farage did respond to these allegations at the press conference a little bit earlier today

I had no intention of returning to politics or as leader of reform

but in the spring of that year I did talk to Richard Tice

about what the liabilities would be if if I was to come back to that position

and you'd be a bit of a mug wouldn't you to walk into a job and not find out what the potential liabilities were

and they were substantial they were substantial but without Richard the party wouldn't have even survived

so that was useful for me to know but it wasn't a deal it wasn't an agreement it was subject to if i came back and if you want

clarification on this that came quite some time after the gift which is perhaps the important point

um so he had absolutely no interest in it in in this job but he wanted to find out

what the what the financial liabilities were of reform uk allegedly have you ever done that

What have I said? Absolutely no intention whatsoever of taking a job

but I just want to find out what would happen if I did. And what the financial agreements might look like for the party

And also just a reminder that it was April of 2024 when Nigel Farage is reported to have got that gift

from the Thai-based crypto billionaire Christopher Harbourn. He told senior figures in reform

according to sources and newspapers, that he would need, quote, a million a year to cover lost earnings

if he stood for parliament in the 2024 election. Now, he didn't make his return to frontline politics until June

So people are saying that this is the reason why you did this deal, because you wanted that extra assurance that you were getting the money that you would, quotes, need to go forward before you decided to start for election

Because he thought, I forget who owns GPBs. Is it Paul Marshall? Or is it one of the others

Yes, I think you're right. Paul Marshall, who also owns The Spectator. Indeed. So he's paying Farage a ton of money to present

Which he does declare. Yeah, but he carries on doing it. So Farage thought he'd have to give up that income stream

in order to go back into politics. So he was, according to those reports, saying to them

well, you're going to have to fine me a million pounds a year from somewhere else. By complete coincidence, up pops Christopher Harbourn

with a million pounds a year for a five-year period. But Farage actually carried on getting the other income stream

from the other billionaire as well. So I hesitate to use words like scam, or in fact, I won't

because that would be entirely inappropriate. I'm just asking questions. I wonder if the bloke who was paying him knew that he was going to carry on paying

So he's got it twice now. Yeah, and it's unclear. You know, I think the whole point is he's not declared this money

He believes that he doesn't. Reform UK have insisted that they've done nothing wrong. They insist that he shouldn't have had to clear this money

But according to the financial rules, newly elected MPs must register any relevant financial interests and gifts received in the 12 months before their election

So there is obviously an ongoing investigation by the Parliamentary Standards Commissioner

And speaking of, there's a fresh one that has emerged today. Richard Tice, formerly the leader of a reform party

is now facing his own separate investigation by the parliamentary authorities as well

I asked Zia Youssef, the shadow... Unelected bureaucrat. Unelected bureaucrat, and also the party's shadow affairs

home affairs spokesperson, what he made of that. Scrutiny on reform is not only expected, it's healthy, right

We've led the vast majority of opinion polls since the general elections

So nobody's concerned. Nobody's objecting to scrutiny. But I think that it is vastly disproportionate relative to other parties

And what I'd also say is clearly standards has been, parliamentary standards has been weaponized in some ways

And look, I'll give you some evidence of this. Just a few days ago, some newspapers ran headlines saying Mr. Tice, my friend and colleague, Richard Tice, was being investigated by standards or something

and within hours, within hours, the very same day, the Commission of Standards threw that out

Welcome back. Sheena's back. Sorry, I got a bit distracted there by events in the studio

That's so unprofessional of me. Thank goodness I wasn't swearing, Sheena. It's 12.58 is the time

So, hang on a minute. He's, well, I can't keep up with that

I mean, it's not, would it be fair to say he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer, that lad

He gave him a ton of money, right? I wouldn't say that. I would never say that. No, but he gave Reform a ton of money

and in return he's got a sort of made-up job. And also he was the treasurer of the party, of course

so he would have seen all of the financial liabilities that, of course, Nigel Farage may or may not have seen

before he decided to do a deal that he may or may not have done. Well, as he said in that clip, he did decide to entertain the prospects of a deal

before he came back to politics. And, of course, as lots of people are pointing out

it's almost like I did it on purpose, Richard Tice is going out with Isabel Oakeshott, not 30p Lee

Well, Richard Tice I don't think was ever going out with 30p Lee. but 30p lee is not stepping out with isabel oakshot the economic migrant based into but

at least she was last time i checked so you got we got an economic migrant and an unelected

bureaucrat all in the sort of top tier of um nigel farage's party so no questions for lbc today right

and you didn't get a question but the bloke that used to run breitbart before becoming nigel

farage's personal advisor and consulier he got a question doing something that i'm not yeah um

Off the top of your head, how many investigations are now underway

From all agencies, whether police, National Crime Agency, Parliamentary Commission, how many

Are we thinking four or five? Yeah, well, that's not an answer. That's four or five

I don't know. I just thought it was worth... We could top them up if you like. Just putting it out there. We'll do it tomorrow

That's it from me for today. If you listened back to... If you missed any of it, you can listen back

You can... Anyway, you know all this. I know what you're thinking. Oh, thank goodness Sheila's back from holiday

I made quite an entrance, didn't I, on the quiet Yeah, I'm sorry about that

If you've heard any little bit of background bleeping I'm in the middle of a very, very high fashion photo shoot

And Chris, the photographer, was standing behind the door As Sheila Fogarty bowled through it

And she nearly killed him Carry on I'm so sorry, Chris It was like a scene from a really bad West End farce, wasn't it

Anyway, I hope you're okay I didn't know my own strength there for a minute

Thanks, James James O'Brien on LBC