Why Middlesborough is such a dangerous place to live | James O'Brien - The Whole Show

It's after 10. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. A very good morning indeed to you

especially if you are in Middlesbrough this morning and reeling, no doubt, both from events

and perhaps from the attention that your town is now receiving. A Middlesbrough MP has described

the intimidation felt by residents as terrorism after nine people were killed and police announced

19 arrests in less than a week. Add to that the fact that we discovered yesterday

200 police officers have been drafted in from around the north of England

from neighbouring forces, following a series of violent incidents since that head-on car crash early on Saturday

that killed seven people, including two police officers. Two more people, seven-year-old Valentina Foster

and her aunt Natalie MacDonald, died in a house fire on Wednesday

with police investigating possible links between that and wider organised crime. Links that have not been definitively established

Let me make that absolutely clear. But I don't think it's a morning for condemning some of the coverage

It seems to me to be fair, at least. Under Siege is the front page that the Daily Mirror chooses to go with

describing a brutal gang war that has left families terrified. the Daily Telegraph

which is traditionally perhaps a slightly more sober organ than some of the tabloids

police surged to tackle northern gang wars and this reports the police

officers flooding into Middlesbrough amid fears of escalating gang violence and the sun, how did

UK town become a war zone and that features a photograph on the front page of

little Valentina Foster that is I mean, absolutely heartbreaking. And the sun don't hold back

I mean, as far as I'm aware, there aren't any definitive links between the violence and this particular incident

but they go with us. 200 cops sent to tackle gang feud that killed girl

Seven. I've got no idea where to start, really, this morning. I mean, I'm tempted to ask you that question

so let me tell you now, the phone line, if you want it, is open

how did UK town become a war zone? I mean, you may object to the use of that

What is going on in Middlesbrough, really, is the question that I would ask you

Because it seems to me that this looks like a real-life version

of the attempts by various online racists and weirdos to depict London as some kind of terrible place

I can't... There must be streets in Middlesbrough that are lovely and you walk down. It's not a town I know at all

I'm quite well-travelled for a London-based member of the media. I know my way around quite a lot of England

both north of London and south of London, but I know very little about Middlesbrough

A very, very good friend of mine hails from there, but he's lived down here for most of his life

I know Brian Clough was from there as a childhood Nottingham Forest fan

I think Brian Clough met his wife in Ria's Creamy Isis, a famous Middlesbrough institution that is no more

but I don't know enough about it to even begin to speculate on the question of why it would be a

particularly virulent victim of changing social norms because that's the point what's going on

in Middlesbrough is not going to be unique but it seems to be happening more and worse in

Middlesbrough than it is in this country almost anywhere else it is for example measurably the

most dangerous place to live in England and Wales. This is according to official crime figures. And

to my embarrassment, if you'd asked me last week what the most dangerous place was to live in in

England and Wales, I don't think I don't think Middlesbrough would have made my top 10. I don't

really know what would have done. But you'd lean towards big cities. And then you'd be reminded

that it has to be per capita, you have to divide crime by the number of people living there or

divide the number of people living there by the number of crimes to get an idea of what the most

dangerous areas are, but over the past year, people living in the Teesside area were also

most at risk of being murdered. 23,419 crimes in Middlesbrough over the 12 months to

the previous 12 months, a crime rate of about 150 crimes per 1,000 people. And a lot of the other

at worst places to be in this context are in that neck of the woods

Redcar, Stockton, Hartlepool. And I mean, we are a London-centric bunch in the media, for good or for ill

We just are. Most of us are based in London. And we really extend our perspectives

beyond the M25, I suppose. But I have no idea what it is about Middlesbrough

that perhaps explains these phenomena? And that's my first question for you, OK

Nine minutes after ten is the time. Why is Middlesbrough so... Well, you know, I don't want to upset you either

So what word would you use here? Vulnerable? Why is Middlesbrough such a dangerous place

There we go. It's the most dangerous place to live in England and Wales. And, of course, you can answer that with either the explanation

of what's going on. It's a dangerous place because of gangs and drugs and violence

or it's a dangerous place because of the reasons why gangs and drugs and violence have managed to take a hold on a town

in ways that other towns of similar size and similar socioeconomic status have simply not

That's the bit I'm interested in, the specifics, if you like, of Middlesbrough

0345 6060 973 is the number that you need. I suspect, and I could be wrong about this

I would love to be wrong, but I don't think I am. I suspect that if the perceived culprits

were of an ethnic minority heritage or background, then the flavour and the tone of the coverage

would be very different in modern Britain, in Brexit Britain, in the land that Nigel built

I suspect if this could in some way be linked to immigration or it could be offered up as an example of some form of human hierarchy, then we would be talking about it or most of the media would be talking about it in a very different way

Quite a few of you making that point already in my inbox

And I think it's true, but I don't know that it's helpful to the conversation that I want to have today

this is a place where we would talk equally about events regardless of the ethnicity of the people who committed them

it's a very unpopular position in the British media but if you have for example a sex offender

then my thoughts go first to the victim and then to the authorities

I don't think first, oh what colour was his skin that's going to define how I cover this

or what country was he born in that's going to be the thing that I consider to be most important here

and the same here I, you know, make that point by all means, but what is it about this town that explains

this plight, this current situation? And let me say some things about towns I do know I mean you know there a I grew up in a town called Kiddermist They smaller than Middlesbrough I was there at the weekend The restaurant I worked in when I was a kid is still boarded up

They've knocked down the Woolworths and replaced it with Parkland. That took 30 years, 25 years to do

And the restaurant I worked in when I was a kid survived for a while. I mean, you know, it didn't shut when I was working there

but it's still boarded up 10 years after closing down. and that does something to a town

But towns up and down the country are like that. The death of industry, all of these things will be part of it

The death of industry is going to be relevant, perhaps, but that's not unique to Middlesbrough

So that's the first half. That's 52% of this phone-in. What is going on in Middlesbrough

And why is Middlesbrough the most dangerous place to live in England and Wales

0345 6060 973. is the number that you need to do that

But to extend the conversation beyond the North East to potentially every corner of this country

I also want you to tell me what it's like to live in the midst of criminality

This is actually one of the really strange things about London and other big cities

is that we often have great wealth living cheek by jowl with great poverty

It's the Notting Hill Carnival this weekend, one of the most magnificent events in the capital's annual calendar

And Notting Hill is an area I know well, an area where I couldn't afford to raise my family

despite it also being an area in the sort of North Kensington environ

near where Grenfell Tower still stands. The poverty there is off the charts

It's among some of the poorest parts in the country, but you can walk yards and be in Millionaire's Row

You can walk yards from some of the poorest social housing in the land to some of the finest mansions in the entire country

And that perhaps means that it's hard for a London-based observer or commentator to get a proper handle on the idea of a town where entire streets or entire estates are riven by

crime. For example, in West London, not far from Notting Hill, there is a there's an estate that

has had more than its fair share of crime and gun crime. But it sits right next to the estate that I

used to live on, which was a sort of Victorian workman's cottages, some of them still social

housing, some of them had fallen into private hands. So you would have people ferrying their

children to private school, and then three streets down, you'd have police tape up because there'd

been another shooting um and that it means that you don't it doesn't feel like a town has teetered

on the brink and fallen it feels like a town has pockets of difference and diversity wealth and

poverty uh Middlesbrough as it is being portrayed and the other thing you must do today is tell me

if this portrayal is unfair and lots of other towns as well where gangs hold sway they're going

to be able to set the tone for the entire area. When I lived on that estate

and we got burgled, I remember the police telling me that they could be fairly confident

who'd done it. So there were two families on that estate who were responsible

or two households on that estate who were responsible for most of the burglaries and most of the crimes

In my naive middle class way, I didn't understand why they couldn't kick the door in and go

and rescue my laptop and mobile phone. But of course, that's not how it works

without evidence. But it It didn't feel like my area was defined by the crime

Do you see what I mean? I'm reading about the most dangerous place to live in England and Wales

I'm reading about empty streets. I'm reading about ghost towns. And I'm reading about decent people living in fear of feral humans

of gangsters. I don't like that word. It sounds almost glamorous. It makes you think of Al Capone, right, and the untouchables

Of criminals, of violent criminals who don't care who they hurt or how they hurt them

What's it like to be a normal person living in these abnormal circumstances

0345 6060973. So I've got a Middlesbrough specific question that I really need your help with

Because I've got nothing. What is going on in your town? Or if it's a town you know, you don't need to be in it

But you know it. What is going on in Middlesbrough? 0345 6060973

and the second question becomes I can get my head around this

I know what hypervigilance is I talked to you last week and I'm glad I did

because it resonated with an awful lot of you judging by some of the messages you sent me

but the events, the stories, the things that move from our heads to our stomachs

when you feel something in your stomach that is a form of fear

it doesn't, I mean it can be rational or irrational but when your stomach is in knots because of threat, because of fear

and the thing about that is that for the massive majority of us, it comes and goes

When it's in place, it's horrible. You can wake up in the morning with it in the pit of your belly

and you wish you could get rid of it. You can't reason it away. You can't talk yourself into feeling better because you're frightened of something

Now, it might be that you're frightened of your boss or you're frightened of losing your job

or you're frightened of having a fight at school later today but you're frightened of something specific and contained

which means that one day soon you're going to wake up in the morning

and it's not going to be there. But I want to know what it's like to be in an area

where you're frightened of something unspecific and uncontained. You're living somewhere dangerous

where the danger has nothing to do with you, where you are, if you like, exposed to threat

You're exposed to peril and danger because it's going on around you all the time

and yet it's got nothing to do with you. Because that form of hypervigilance

that knot in your stomach, is, well, I imagine, is permanent. Isn't it

That must be a terrible way to live. I mean, an absolutely exhausting way to live

It's as if that fight-or-flight impulse that we all have is constant rather than event-specific

Fight or flight is the natural human response to danger. Something in front of you that threatens you appears

and you have an impulse either to run away or to fight. That's why it's called fight or flight

And that's in your stomach. That's the nervous system. What would it be like? What is it like

And this doesn't have to be in Middlesbrough, of course. This could be anywhere where criminals have the run of the place

I've never lived in a town like that. I've never lived in a street like that where criminals have the run of the place

What's that like? 034560973. When my wife was at university in Liverpool

a local criminal died, and she still talks about this now. It was as if... It was like Diana Princess of Wales

It was an entire street covered in flowers. I don't know whether it was a sort of throwback

to what people used to say about Ronnie and Reggie Cray, or you were safe when they were in charge You could leave your front door open which for people of my generation always sounded really weird It not like that now It Well I don know what it like except that it constant and it must be terrible to live with

and it doesn't happen only in Middlesbrough. It quite possibly happens to you

and if it does, I want you to tell me what it's like

So, what's going on in Middlesbrough and what's it like to live in a community

that is controlled by criminals. 0345 6060 973. James O'Brien on LBC

21 minutes after 10, one rather obvious flaw in the programme this morning

which is why it is in two parts, one specific to Middlesbrough and one not

And I think the obvious flaw is highlighted here. Please do not name me, says this texter

I have lived in Middlesbrough for the last 50 years. We have pockets of good neighbourhoods

and we have known for decades of the areas where the streets are unsafe

The portrayal of the whole town as dangerous is unbalanced and unfair

I do not doubt that. I'm going to delete that message now so that I don't accidentally say your name

But allow me to point out it's a relatively normal name. And yet you're still worried about me reading it out on the radio

And I don't know if people from Middlesbrough are going to ring me because you'd be worried

You don't have to use your real name. We can pretend that you're not in Middlesbrough. I mean, do whatever you want

but that phrase that was used by that texter the streets are unsafe

that's what I was trying to convey it's not like that street is that or that bit of that street

or some wrongans live in that house the streets you live on are unsafe and that absence of safety

has nothing to do with you I want to know what that's like

Tommy's in Blackpool Tommy what made you pick up the phone? Hi James

so I have family who live in Middlesbrough and the situation is, to answer your question

it's due to a lack of policing. It's probably due to the Conservatives taking off 20,000 coppers

So what happens is somebody commits a crime, a crime that 30, 40 years ago, they would be scared to do

i.e. have a gun or have drugs in the car. now if you're scared to do that then

you know other people are going to be scared to do it and it's not going to be

it's going to limit the amount of guns and drugs now what happens is

gradually over time when one criminal feels confident and does it again, doesn't get caught

does it again, doesn't get caught and people are cutting on to it as the police go down

slowly that becomes part of the society where there's guns and drugs

relatively available in public places. So there's a bit of chance here

It could happen anywhere, but it has happened there. Yeah, it's happened in other places

It's happened in other places. Of course, but I mean, it is unfortunately a simple statistic that Middlesbrough

is now the most dangerous place to live in England. So the criminality, it takes a hold

and then it spreads. And I've read about cuts to the police. I don't know where you got the 20,000 figure from

But that's going to be true elsewhere as well. I mean, you know, we're back to Osborne's razor, aren't we

All roads lead back to austerity. So why Middlesbrough in particular, do we think

Well, with the nitrogen... See, I'm trying to be polite when I say this. Middlesbrough was quite a poor area anyway

Well, I mean, it was also quite a wealthy area. It was at the heart of the Industrial Revolution, wasn't it

It was a long time ago. It was a long time ago, yes, obviously. I mean, not..

You're right, but, yeah, I suppose... maybe once it was, I mean

but I'm trying to be quite polite. What do you mean by polite

Because I'm describing an area where people live. Yeah, I understand. So you're trying to be decent

You don't want to tar everybody with the same brush or portray the entire town as a bunch of scumbag criminals

Correct, correct. And, you know, members of my family live there. The thing is, you see

the devil dances in empty pockets. So when someone's got no money

and you know it used to be like okay jack the lad wants a car wants this wants that but now it's a

case of somebody or who works hard for the family can't afford to buy things so they might you know

they might maybe hold some drugs or a gun for somebody and get paid they might maybe uh turn

a blind eye to a cry and get a few quid off somebody for that you see so what happens is

it's so intermoving and also i hate to say this as well sure you you often and i can't say this is

the case, but when you have like corrupt police and you have corrupt customs officials

as well, now I've got to be quite careful how I say this

that can often add to the problem because that's unmonitored isn't it? Yeah it is, but again that's going to be

potentially true anywhere and I mean even if you could back that up

with evidence, and I think we can both agree that you can't A

wouldn't be unique to Middlesbrough and B, you wouldn't be able to do it on this radio programme

anyway because of the very obvious legal reasons. So Middlesbrough has the highest crime rate

excluding central London and of course very few people live in central London

it's going to be opportunistic crimes and street crimes that drive those numbers

people living in Teesside are the most at risk of being murdered and

I mean this is why it's a phone-in in two halves half of it is, what is it about Middlesbrough

and half of it is the nature of unsafe streets and you've done a good job

of knitting the two together but I still can't quite see why Middlesbrough has the lead on this, as it were

Okay, so, because if you watch a race, right, or watch a marathon

different people are going to be in the lead at different times. Yes. So there might be four or five top runners in the world

It's just at this particular time, Middlesbrough is soon, it might be Glasgow

it might be going back to Liverpool, it might go to... Well, this is going to be local politics, isn't it

This is actually going to be down to whoever is in charge of the region

They've got part of the responsibility, yes. I'd say a lot of it, really, though

to get the problems sorted, SAP, you need more police. On the streets

And more fear of consequences. You need more. Now, because this is one of those problems

that sometimes is a straightforward solution. And obviously, certain problems isn't, but, you know, it's because you've..

Yeah. like it used to be now whether or not that will happen, whether or not

you'll have your AI robots doing it Yeah, no, I hear you

so lack of opportunity, widespread poverty, but the thing that really seeds this kind of situation

is the policing issue it is the idea that somebody bad does something bad and the

consequences are not severe enough to stop them from doing it again or to stop other people

from doing it and that spreads like cancer. Yes, or there's no consequences

because, you know, it's you're going to get away with it because there isn't enough people to check here

because there's just enough police like so, yeah, as bad as that sounds, it's the truth

and, you know, give it a few years, it could be back to Liverpool it could be somewhere in Scotland. Well, they will, they'll send in task forces

and I mean they sending in 200 police officers from other forces and they may as you say turn the tide but it moves somewhere else because deprivation health inequalities substance misuse

this is the Police and Crime Commissioner for the region talking, listing all of these things

mental health challenges all play a significant role, and require a coordinated response from government and public services

Is it Ben Houchen? Is it his patch, this? I'm not sure

I think it is. I think he got put in the House of Lords by Boris Johnson. I think he's the metro mayor for this neck of the woods

He certainly used to be. I'll double check that. But here you have it

The most dangerous cities in the UK are Middlesbrough's top. They recently supplanted Blackpool

So something happens when you have epic deprivation in an area and poor policing

You can have what? I mean, arguably, the police should be more visible on the streets where there isn't any money

than they are on the streets where there's lots. thinking back to the you know the coverage of of expensive watches getting stolen in london

you do not walk around london whatever racist americans might tell you on twitter feeling

frightened for your safety you simply don't i walk around london every single day these streets in

this town i would not feel safe on i really wouldn't but of course there's no political

capital to be made because you can't blame it all on immigration which is why i don't imagine

nigel farage will be addressing the nation anytime soon about any of this it's coming up to half past

10. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. And there it is. You might

be lucky, says Stephen, to get anyone to contact you from a place that is run by criminals because

they might be too scared to say anything in case of repercussions. Danny picks

up on a point I was trying to make. Middlesbrough was once the industrial capital of the UK, mainly

due to the invention of the steam engine. That first railway actually ran through the

town. It was the iron and steel hub for the world. The Sydney Harbour Bridge was

constructed in Middlesbrough. Did you know that? along with the Tyne Bridge. But since the 1980s, it's been in steady decline

No jobs, no prospects. And Danny's in County Durham, about half an hour away from Middlesbrough itself

But none of this... And listen, I think that what Tommy said was very strong

about the idea of the lead in a race swapping and changing

But it's usually the same towns. Middlesbrough has overtaken Blackpool. Blackpool might overtake Middlesbrough again

Manchester is bad. Manchester is another place where entire areas, entire postcodes or entire estates can be dominated by criminality

Why Middlesbrough? I mean, again, the specifics of it, on the one hand

03456060973, and then the generality. What is it like to be frightened on your own streets

Isn't that mad? You hear it all the time in the context of immigration

from people who've got next to nothing to be frightened of. But, of course, the way the newspapers are framing everything

and the way racist politicians present everything, you're being persuaded that there's a violent asylum seeker lurking around every corner

Here is a historic English town that's the most dangerous place in the land

and I don't think I've ever heard J.D. Vance or Nigel Farage acknowledge its existence

It's 10.31. Dominic Ellis has your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC. 13.34 is the time. Hi, James. I work for Children's Services in Middlesbrough. We do have a lot of young people being exploited, parents and carers neglecting their children and themselves due to drugs and trauma, etc

there's also a lot of history in Middlesbrough of gang and criminal behaviour

there are good people here working hard to change the dynamics of families

but it's like pushing water up a hill with a rake every single day

it's a lack of resources, a lack of stability leadership changes, money and investments being wasted on projects that do not take off

it's also a divided place there are some areas in Middlesbrough living in peace

and likely to go about their day blissfully unaware of what's going on in the areas of deprivation and extremities

the small hot spots that can totally overload the whole town. Finally, I love my job, says Chloe

and just remember, where some see a thug, I see a child who is vulnerable and has lost their way

And, you know, that is going to be part of the explanation

of the broader phenomenon, not of the specifics, I don't think, to Middlesbrough

Maybe I need to get over that, but it fascinates me and upsets me

I don't think it's a coincidence that crime has risen in these areas, writes Mike in Middlesbrough

As the steelworks have declined over the past couple of decades, if young men had access to well-paid, secure jobs like previous generations

I think fewer would be getting involved in crime. I think that's probably a gimme, isn't it

Mike, a lot of the areas in Middlesbrough where we're seeing the problems today were originally built as communities for steelworkers and their families

And yet you could say the same about parts of the East Midlands and the coal mines, parts of Yorkshire

and the coal fields there, North Wales, all of the industrial heartlands of this country

Sheffield, where the steelworks were absolutely enormous, huge employers. My maternal grandfather was employed in the Sheffield steel industry

and it's not there anymore. And those towns, those cities haven't fallen as far as Middlesbrough

with the constant caveat from Chloe that, of course, there are good people there and good things happening

and don't write off an entire town because of the activities of a minority

Mark's in Durham. Mark, what would you like to say? Yeah, well, I live outside the area, but I've worked in the area for about nine years

And I'm not a local, but obviously I'm looking a little bit from an outsider's point of view

And one of the specifics for this area is it's quite isolated in a strange sort of way

Go on. Yeah. So you've got an urban conurbation, a port area

You used to have very big chemical works. ICI used to have massive factories, very well-paid jobs

The steelworks, as someone's discussed, when I first came here, they were still standing but idle

They've been pulled down now. And these are quite, the people I know who family or parents work there

these are very well-paid manual labour jobs for the area, really well-paid

you know, people were earning £30,000, £40,000 ten years ago, which would have been

quite a decent wage for... And that's part of the muscle memory of the town

Yeah, and they've gone. Yeah? So on the south of it, you've got the south..

In the south of it, you've got the North Yorkshire Moors, and there is nothing

until you get to York and Leeds. It's moorland, and nice, very nice

North Yorkshire, more towns. And then you go the other way, you go to Darlington, which is a bit more

up and cut, a bit more affluent. But if you keep going, there's nothing then

until you get to the other side of the country. And then you go... I never would have thought of it in geographical terms

But the North East is quite isolated. So if you go north of it, you've got

County Durham, which has got some problems with its ex-pit villages, which are mostly on the coast

which are tying to Hartlepool. But then you, I mean, I live very close to Durham

and Durham is the World Heritage Site with a world-class university, and it's like chalk and cheese

Yeah. And then you go up to Newcastle, it's an hour away. Castle is quite a diverse, vibrant city, really

It has its problems as well. And I think some of it is related to these people can't get out of there

It's very... There's that many of them work. The people who got out..

You're describing prisoners of geography in a way. Yeah, I think they may be

As well as... So a lot of people I know who... who they contract and go and live away in contract

or, you know, in doing building or whatever work stuff, or they work offshore on the gas and oil fields and they come back

And those are the people who, or they've left the air in Thailand. So maybe the people that are left are just not

or some of them anyway, are not really... Well, there's several, so many questions

And thank you for having a proper crack at what might be specific to Middlesbrough

I think that, yeah. I mean, people might dispute what you're saying

They can't argue with the map, can they? But they could argue with what you draw from it

No, I think it does affect it. And then the other flip of the coin for me is

historically, look at Cleveland police. And they've had quite a few corruption problems

For a small force, they've had quite a few corruption problems. We're talking over 20, 30 years, historically

They had a few corruption problems. And that would involve potentially, and we're not..

Maybe not as effective a police force as it could have been. But also, of course, corruption generally involves being sympathetic to criminals

or being in the pay of criminal organisations. I'm a little bit nervous of going any further on these kind of comments

but we are familiar with what police corruption involves. We've seen it over decades in every corner of the country

and if, as you say, Cleveland has had a particular problem over the years

then it might explain how the kingpins of these organisations have managed to prosper, to thrive and of course to stay out of jail

Yeah and obviously then you've got the austerity laid on top. You've got the police again

The formula for how you get your number of police doesn't favour, you know, like the financial formula doesn't favour Cleveland, Teesside anyway

I work in an area quite close to the police, let's just say, without being specific

Of course. And I do know that compared to other places, if you look at the people

it's very localised crime. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? A lot of it is very localised

It's the same group of people. It's a churn of the same group

Yeah, I understand exactly what you're saying. Yeah, and their influence spreads when their activities are not curtailed

And, you know, the absence of consequences. Thank you, Mark. That's incredibly helpful

Again, the way this program works, you can challenge anything that Mark has said

but it's a fascinating field of academic study, the social consequences of geography

And I would never have crossed my mind that there could be something relevant there

I mean, you know, think about how popular anti-immigration politicians are in seaside towns

It's weird. I mean, it is literally weird. You go to somewhere like Clackton, there isn't any immigration

and yet they love the racists down there. The racist politicians always do well in those kind of areas

Yarmouth as well, hardly any immigration. In fact, didn't the MP for Yarmouth see a charity boat race

going off just off the coast, and he started posting, Rupert Lowe started posting on social media

about how the place was being invaded, and it turned out it was people raising money for cancer research

in a big canoe or something like that. these people get elected in towns like yarmouth um so geography is relevant it plays some part in

in the psychology so why wouldn't it be relevant to these sort of questions as well 1042 as a time

as a borough resident and retired police officer i'm getting a lot of texts from people who are

very very clear that they do not want me to mention their names um this is a culmination of social

services uh sure start and policing cuts just take a look at the police funding formula james

Cleveland is grossly underfunded when you look at the levels of crime and antisocial behaviour that it suffers from

The funding model relies on the council tax precept, but Teesside doesn't have the house prices to yield the level of precept that somewhere like Surrey or North Yorkshire has

Therefore, the force with the worst crime rates ends up with the least relative funding

You see, there are some things that are specific to Middlesbrough. Obviously, it's more complex than that, but this is a big issue

We work so hard in Cleveland Police, but it is just overwhelming

And then in capital letters, please don't say my name. There aren't many people with my name working in Cleveland Police

So I will just delete that one as well so that I don't accidentally glance at it in a moment

10.43 as a time. Dan's in Kendall. Dan, what would you like to say? Just that, you know, first of all, I'm a big defender of Middlesbrough in a sense of an urban place

I kind of lived there from 2003 to 2008. I'm not from there, from the Lake District

But, you know, I kind of came to love the place in a kind of rough and ready fashion

So, yeah, I'll put that first. So, first of all, Middlesbrough has always been rough as a part of Teesside

So, Teesside is like an entire valley. You've got, you know, Grangestown on the other side

You've got the, you know, half of Middlesbrough was knocked down in about 2006 on one side of the railway

And they built Boho, which was part of this kind of urban development plan by the former mayor, Ray Mallon

OK. And he was called Robocop. I remember that. He was a tolerance type guy, wasn't he

Yeah, exactly. So the interchange between politics and police there has been going on for at least 20 years since I was there

I can't really speak on behalf of Cleveland police and all that kind of stuff. I don't really know anything about that

You don't have to. You're giving me your perspective. It's really interesting. So, you know, deprivation has been a key part of central Middlesbrough

And where these, you know, where the ramming happened or where the house was set on fire

these are estates further towards the coastal side of it a grangetown south bank i mean you know

even when i was there we were warned never go down south bank it's rough as out um um but yeah even

even in central middlesbrough t-s1 um they knocked down half of the terraced houses to try and fix

the whole deprivation problem because it became you know um a massive area for urban deprivation

they in the 2005-6 period central government decided to send loads of refugees up there

so there was a huge Kurdish community the building there's a huge Arab community that's been built up over the years

so there's that aspect to it what else? I mean a lot of this would apply to most towns

but not the historical the geographical and the historical is really interesting and not least the fact that you describe deprivation as being a generational issue It bedded into families and that going to be true in small pockets up and down the country

but it's almost as if the pockets in Middlesbrough have sort of joined together, and now you've got big pockets that can define the air of a whole town

The problem with Teesside in a sense, and I always thought this, because I'm not from that side of the country

is that they'll build new areas en masse. There's, you know, there's other sides of..

There's like Hartlepool and, you know, there's Middlesbrough, there's Stockton, there's Yarm

Yarm is one of the richest places in the country and it's only about three miles away from the middle of Middlesbrough

Right. And that presumably is why they keep returning this Mayor Houchen

because there are votes elsewhere in the country that are traditionally conservative

and the areas that you're talking about, that deprived areas are just forgotten about

entirely forgotten about, both in terms of policing and in terms of provision

Yeah, I mean, and also I think, you know, Middlesbrough is an example of urban design testing

for maybe 70 years, since the 1950s. I didn't know any of this

Yeah, it's a really interesting urban layout, if you put it like that

And so you've got that coupled with where it sits on the map of England

and all of these things could be contributing factors to the specifics of what is going on

You mentioned Hartlepool, John's there. He writes, historically, Borough is only there

because the railway needed a port to ship out the coal from the Durham coalfields

Then it got another huge expansion when ironstone was discovered in the Cleveland hills

But as soon as steel replaced iron, the hills became less useful

The coalfields declined, leaving it with just imported materials for steelmaking. Global steel overproduction left it a town without an industry

and the chemical works are small in comparison and highly specialized. There's so many different dimensions

but all dimensions of decline and all moving in the same direction

and then failure of politics. None of this excuses anything. You know, most of us like to think that even if we'd grown up in hideous circumstances

we'd never go around setting fire to houses or causing the death of police officers

But it explains. You need to try to understand things. And I'm coming a lot better

It's extraordinary, really, to reflect upon how many different answers there are to these questions

And to my surprise, the specifics of Middlesbrough are coming in thick and fast

as opposed to the reality of hypervigilance, living in a state of fear

because the streets on which you live are not safe, because of people who are not you

I've still got room for that testimony as well. But the question of why is Middlesbrough in the state that it's in

We'll be speaking to the leader of Roker and Cleveland Borough Council in the course of the next hour of the programme

He will perhaps want to challenge some of what has been said already and add to the general sense of trying to understand

Because I take on board what Tommy said at the outset about other towns taking the lead and jostling for the lead

But if you look at the sort of towns that are always there or thereabouts, there must be something specific or peculiar to them that explains the criminality, the danger and the lack of safety

And if you're just joining us, Middlesbrough is measurably the most dangerous place to live in England and Wales

It's 1049. James O'Brien on LBC. I don't think this is one for the phone in, but what are they going to do when they get there

This task force of 200 specialist police officers that is being deployed to crime-ridden Middlesbrough

in an attempt to restore order, I read on the front page of one newspaper today. I mean, that's a policing question

Maybe I should have added that to the list at 10 o'clock. What do they do when they get there? Start rounding up the usual suspects

I honestly don't know. I mean, they are specialists, so presumably they know what they are doing

But what are they going to do specifically when they get there? It doesn't sound like a lot, 200

but something has got to give. One more text, and I'll talk to Joe

who's in Middlesbrough, but the thing that made me look something up

whenever you tell me it wasn't reported by mainstream media, I think it usually is

So when you wrote, this was not reported in the mainstream media, as it only affected brown people

and another one saying, please don't mention my name, you're talking about the Farage riots

You're talking about the violence that unfolded up and down the country after some public figures

spread misinformation and obvious lies about the terrible killings in Southport. And I just thought I'd refresh my memory

on whether or not Middlesbrough was part of that. And it was

About a thousand people on the streets in Middlesbrough alone. And that footage you may remember

of some knuckle-drager stopping traffic and asking drivers, are you white, are you English

That was in Middlesbrough. So you can see why certain politicians have got absolutely nothing to say about this outbreak of violence, can't you

Perfectly feasible. The crossover between those who were on the streets during the Farage riots and those committing the crimes or part of the problems that we're talking about now may be considerable

Are you white? Are you English? That's our country. That was in 2024

He got jailed, but he was on the streets of Middlesbrough, stopping traffic, going, are you white, are you English

Phew. 10.55 is the time. And these, of course, are the people that are groomed and gaslit

by the kind of politicians that like to pretend that London is an especially dangerous place compared to the rest of the world

when the statistics tell us the polar opposite. All of this matters because you're not going to fix things

if you lie about the problems. And, of course, we're living in an era

where some of the most successful politicians are among the biggest liars

Jo is in Middlesbrough. Jo, what would you like to say? Hi there. First time I've been on the show, but I listen a lot

I'm from Middlesbrough. I'm deeply proud of my town. I was a director in the steel industry when it fell in 2015

so I've seen firsthand, lost my job, and set up my own business as a result of that

at the same time being told in media that it was the worst place to grow up as a female

I don't know whether you're aware of that statistic. No, I wasn't aware of that statistic. It was all over national news as well

When was that? What era was that? That was about 10, 15 years ago

It was a national report and it said Middlesbrough's the worst. I haven't experienced that

I'm going to say I love the place where I live. We've got the Cleveland Hills, we've got the North York Mills

we've got Saltburn, we've got the most beautiful coastline and a great football team and I don't recognize the reports that I'm seeing I just don't and maybe

I'm a privileged uh person I don't know maybe I've just don't see it enough I go into Middlesbrough

quite often um I used to have an office there until I moved out um but it's like any declining

town I mean I've got friends all over the country I lived in Salford for many years when I was going

to university and I saw crime every day There was people murdered on my street There was my house was burled Manchester is the third on the list actually of the most dangerous cities in the UK

And yet you've heard the phone in today, Jo, and there have been some..

And I don't want anybody to come away from this thinking that Middlesbrough is all bad

but there have been some really interesting ideas on what may be peculiar to Middlesbrough

to explain what is measurable, that it is, you know... And listen, it sounds awful

It's the most dangerous place in England and Wales. And it will be close

And it will be relatively small percentages. But 150 crimes per 1,000 people

That's notable. If you look at those statistics, it's probably been the same report year on year for the last few years

We've always been in the top two or three. I don't think something drastically has happened

No, no, I give you that. I grant you that. But why do you think it is? We are quite under. under, because we're, you know, we are an impoverished area. We've got a lot of, you know

our biggest, when I was growing, you either went in the steel industry, you went in the chemical industry, you know, they were absolutely enormous. And both of them, we've no longer

got, so we've, I was presented by Savid Javid when the Teesside Task Force came to town to

kind of try and save the steel industry, saying we need more sustainable industries in the

north-east and on T-side. And I was like, what sustainable industries? You know

That's all we know what to do. That's all we know what to do

Not backed up with anything meaningful or substantive. We've got generations and generations of people from Grangetown

where the little girl died, where all they knew was steel. You know, it's quite opposite

But that's not coming back, is it, any time soon? No, never. I mean, once you shook the blast lens

and knocked it down now. How significant do you think that is? Because this is really hard for people who are not from the industrial heartlands of the country to understand

It leaves something in the air. Absolutely. We talked a lot yesterday about security in the context of the changing job market and a job for life

and the comfort that was provided by that. I can't join the dots between that being taken away and criminality taking a hold

Can you? No, I can't. I can begin to. You can sort of think, well, I deserve better and I can't get it legally

I deserve better because this is a town where we used to have better

We used to have more. I can't get it legally. Therefore, I'm going to try and get it illegally

Whereas if the town had never known good days, I don't know. I'm spitballing

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there could be a lot of that in there, obviously. The rise of social media whipping up some of this information as well

I just, I don't, I'm so proud of my town. I'm devastated by what's happening at the moment

I'm sure. So you can be devastated while not witnessing it or recognising it

You know that it's happening because we see the stories and we see the heartbreaking photographs of the little girl

Everybody I know is just proud of the town and wants to be proud

We're a very proud town. As I say, a very, very good friend of mine is Middlesbrough born and bred

and he's, like you, very, very proud of his town. It's horrible to see this happen

Well, we've had some fabulous people come from here. Go on, let's end the conversation with a few reminders

Bob Mortimer, Brian Clough. Bob Mortimer's our legend, yeah, absolutely. He's one of yours, isn't he, Clough

He is. Yeah, absolutely he was, yeah, absolutely. Wendy Richards, my friend Kirsten O'Brien, various people

So we've got some fabulous people from here. We just, yeah. Just having a nightmare at the moment

and something must be done. That's the sort of refrain of armchair politicians

throughout the ages. I'm glad you got on, Joe. I'm glad you got on with a little, um, slightly warmer ysis, but no denial

There's no sticking your fingers in your ears or closing your eyes about what's going on. And it turned out to be worth asking about what might be or what is, in your view, specific to Middlesbrough

Good Lord. It is 11 o'clock. We're moving to slightly lighter territory, I think, moving forward

Well, maybe not, actually. I do want to talk about cowboy builders. Do you

James O'Brien on LBC. Four minutes after 11. Can I just take a quick moment? Thank you for that

I could have done that phone-in on Wednesday or Thursday, and I didn't, because I didn't think it would work

And then, as Friday came around, I sort of thought, well, come off it. Since when do you do things on this programme

When do you not do things because you don't think they'll work? I just didn't think we'd get enough insight into Middlesbrough

And that's partly why I also offered you the opportunity to tell me what it was like growing up or living in crime-controlled

criminal-controlled areas outside Middlesbrough. But I should have had more faith in you

That's a lesson for us all. So thank you. I mean that most sincerely

Turn our attention next to something that can affect absolutely anybody, except for, and I don't want you to hate me for this

except for those of us who think, oh, that could never happen to me. I'm too savvy

I always think that the people who own up to being victims of online scams

it's only really interesting if you can't quite believe that they were a victim of an online scam

Do you see what I mean? It's like you want somebody like Martin Lewis

to be the victim of an online scam in order to really get it across how good the scammers are at scamming people

because Martin gets up extremely early in the morning and never misses anything

In fact, his face is used to conduct online scams. Do you see what I mean

If it's your auntie Doris who struggles to remember what day it is

and she's been ripped off online, it's a bit dog bites man, right

Do you see what I mean? Whereas if it was, I don't know

someone very, very clever, savvy and smart, who do you think of when I say very, very clever, savvy and smart

Who do you think of? Oh, that's very kind of you, but I think I referenced myself on the programme far too much as it is

Someone very, very clever, savvy and smart who got ripped off, who got scammed

Then that becomes man bites dog. That becomes much, much, much more newsworthy

And I suffer a little bit from thinking, if you have been a victim of cowboy builders

then it's probably your fault a bit and then you realise how easy it is

how easy it is to happen you can hire builders because you've got a word of mouth recommendation

and they did a perfectly good job for your friends but they did a very different job

that they were up to doing and then they come round yours and quote you and tell you yeah we can do that, we can do you aloft

so they've done your friend's downstairs toilet extension I don't think I ever told you that that's what I built

in my days on a building site I was building a downstairs toilet extension

in Doncaster for a a man who'd had an industrial accident and couldn't get upstairs anymore

so they needed to build a toilet for him downstairs a toilet and a shower room that's what I did

that was my two weeks on a building site in South Yorkshire so if for example I'd just done that

and I came off the back of it and you said you just had some builders in didn't you Keith

did they do your downstairs toilet extension, didn't they? And you'd go, yes, James, that's absolutely

right. And I said, well, I need my loft doing. Do you think they'd, would you recommend them? And you'd go, yeah

yeah, they were really good, actually. They had this weird bloke who was working with them. I think

he might have been a public school boy. Couldn't lift a bag of sugar, let alone the breeze blocks

that he was required to lug around the place every day. But apart from him, they were

all great. They really got the job done. So I ring you up I say excuse me I need a loft conversion Could you come around and do it And you say yes certainly that be You got no idea you just think you going to be okay you think you going to wing it And of course after a week or a fortnight I got no roof

and you've disappeared, because you've realised you can't do the job. So that's one way in which

it could happen to anybody. I just, what I want to do this hour, is establish that it could happen

to anybody. Right? That's the thing. And not that you need to be gullible, or you need to be greedy

or you need... Well, unless you want to tell me that you do, maybe as a builder you don't understand

how anyone can be the victim of a cowboy builder because if you did your due diligence

and if you dotted your I's and crossed your T's, you would be able to avoid that particular plight

But, um... I would prefer to establish the idea that you..

that it could happen to anybody and the best way of doing that is by asking what happened to you

0345 6060 973. Why are we talking about this? Because Andy Burnham is going to war

against Cowboy Builders. It's not exactly a difficult target, is it? It's a lovely target to..

Who's going to sit here and say, why is he going after Cowboy Builders when he should be going after them over there

I mean, it's a lovely politically live issue. Cowboy... I don't know..

And this may be one of the questions that I add to my list. I don't know quite what this is going to look like

how easy it would be to do this. but he has written in the Daily Mail

so he's really chasing those votes and he's written they're crooks and it's about time we treated them like it

so today we're putting the cowboy the cowboys out of business they prey on the vulnerable

they rob our neighbours of their futures and above all they destroy lives

I think he's right by the way for the avoidance of any doubt whatsoever

and I think what they're going to do is insist that you sign up to

a thing called Trustmark like a kind of government-endorsed quality scheme. There are already quality schemes out there, of course

but the government-endorsed one will set the bar higher, and then they're going to have an approved code scheme

for the home improvement sector. So you would find yourself in a situation where if you employed anybody who hadn't got these badges

then you would only have yourself to blame. They're trying to create the idea, to create a world in which it would be impossible to be ripped off

because it would be so easy to check that the people that you were employing were kosher

I'm not sure it will work. That's a question that perhaps only people in the trade will be able to tell me

but I do know this. I think it could happen to anybody. And what happened to you

Some of you are disputing the description of a toilet extension as being a building site

Well, of course it's a building site. It was a site, and we were building something. I apologise if I gave you the impression

that I was building a multi-storey car park or some major international infrastructure

building an outside toilet. Well, it wasn't an outside toilet, was it

It was an inside toilet, but we were outside when we were building it. It's ten minutes after 11

I just want to know what happened to you. I also... I sometimes turn to a subject

after the one that we discussed in the last hour and think that this is lighter territory. It's not, is it

It's not. Because the example that Andy Burnham provides is a woman who was driven to attempt suicide

by an unscrupulous tradesman. Her home was left unsafe to live in

So I want you to tell me about the toll it takes, the psychic toll it takes

Because, I mean, there's so much going on here, isn't there? You're going to feel really stupid

And that's probably not at the forefront of your thinking or your feeling. The forefront of your feeling is fear

I can't afford to fix this. They've gone. I've got no recourse

That's another element of the conversation. What do you do when you find out you've been ripped off

What support is there? What help is there? I presume your insurers will wriggle like a fish on a hook

to avoid giving you the money that you think you deserve, that you think you deserve

So in what order do you put these feelings? You start with anger, right

And then fear. Fear and anger, oddly, are very hard to separate

Yoda knew what he was talking about. What he was talking about, Yoda knew

You've got anger and fear, I would say, quite hard to separate. and then you've got embarrassment, shame

In fact, that's often quite hard to separate as well. You've got the whole lot here, haven't you? Anger, fear, shame

How can I have been ripped off? You know, I'm a gob on a stick radio presenter

I'm a business director. I'm a company director. I'm a doctor. How could I have been ripped off

I'm far too clever to be conned. And you got conned. Tell me how

How does it work? Does it escalate? You don't hand over £50,000 on day one and they blow your house up

You kind of think, I don't know about that. But they must know what they're doing

I really suffer from that. Do you suffer from that? Oh, they must know what... I haven't got a clue

Two things when I've got builders in. Number one, my accent goes south. I start sounding like the lost Mitchell brother

And number two, I believe almost everything they tell me. Thank God I married a woman who is considerably wiser than me

But that's what you do. You think, well, they know what they're talking about. I take my car in for a service

I don't start telling the mechanics what to do if I've got builders in my house I don't start telling them what to do

so that would be part of it right you'd be concerned but almost talking yourself out of saying anything 03456060973

if you're in the trade you must hate these people even more than their customers do

because they get everybody a bad name I'm quite a trusting guy

and I've been pretty lucky. I had a couple of wobbles. I had an awful lot of work done on my various homes over the years

because we quite like what they call fixer-uppers. But I haven't had any absolute nightmares

And I think probably more through luck than judgment or through Mrs O'Brien's wisdom as opposed to mine

The old sucking the teeth with the pen behind your ears, it's not going to be... I've got no idea how much that should cost

I'm going to believe whatever you tell me. I told you, didn't I? I've got a fling in the middle of my garden

which has been a godsend, actually, in recent weeks, because the middle of my lawn is bright green, would you believe

That's because we've got a runoff. I didn't really understand what he was telling me

but he said, we're going to get a digger. We're going to get a digger in your back garden

We can drive it through the garage, because it opens at the front and the back. And I said, can I have a go on it

And he said, yes. And I said, well, let's do it. That's how I decided. I didn't know what a runoff was

I didn't even know whether we needed it. I just knew I was going to be able to have a go on this little mini digger

She dug a big hole in the middle of the lawn, and it's got some kind of... Well, it's got a water thing in it

like a runoff so that our drains don't overflow when there's torrential rain. And that means there's a reservoir of water under our lawn

so our lawn looks like a sort of fried egg with the colours all wrong. The outside of the lawn is yellow

and the middle of the lawn is bright green. I've no idea. I don't know how that happened

I must have been in charge that day. And Mrs O'Brien comes home and says

what's going on in the back? I said, oh, we're building a runoff so that the drains don't overflow. Anyway, take a picture of me in the digger

Go on, quick, take a picture of me. Bob the Builder. So I probably should have got ripped off at some point over the last 20 years

And by a miracle and a combination of luck and circumstance, I haven't. I want you to tell me how it happened to you

All right? in 7-3. I want the how of it, and then I want the what it feels like. The how of it. That's

the thing that you don't know unless it's happened to you. Because we don't even know

what it means to be left with a house that's uninhabitable. At what point should you, could

you, would you have realised that this was all going wrong? And they've carried on doing

it. They haven't disappeared. They've carried on making things worse. So tell me what happened

to you and be absolutely certain of one thing i don't i don't think it was your fault i don't think

even looking back i'm not sure you could have done anything differently you're welcome to tell me that

you could have done but um i don't think it's a given by any stretch of the imagination that you

need to be vulnerable or gullible or slow on the uptake or too trusting or any of those things

i want to know what happened to you when these people that andy burnham is promising to

pursue, come into your life and rip you off. 0345 6060 973

James O'Brien on LBC 18 minutes after 11, thank you to everyone

it's funny the things that prompt you to get in touch with me, you know, I can sit here for hours going

please ring me, please ring me on a matter of major international importance

and there's nothing and then I accidentally describe something as a runoff when it is in fact a soak away and my inbox explodes i did not pretend to know what i

was talking about what i've got is a soak away victoria and i know as keith has pointed out i

did used to be a builder so you'd think i would know better wouldn't you um it's there to stop

rainwater runoff by soaking it away basically it's a big pipe laid vertically and full of gravel

so it's not a reservoir or or indeed a runoff it's a big pipe laid vertically and full of gravel so

that the water soaks away. So that's where our drains go. It's where our gutters go, and it means they never overflow

when there's really, really heavy rain. It also means the middle of my lawn is luscious and verdant

for reasons that it took me ages to work out. I thought maybe next door was breaking the hosepipe ban

and inexplicably firing it over the fence into our garden. But I mention that because I could have been ripped off and I wasn't

And if I had been ripped off, I don't think it would have been my fault. So I want to know what happened to you

It's 19 minutes after 11 and Sharon is in Hurst Pier Point. Sharon, what made you pick up the phone

Oh, James, I've spoken to you before about much more, well, I was going to say much more serious matters about Russia and stuff like this

but I have dreamt about having an opportunity to speak to you about this

because my husband and I, he's nearly 80, I've just turned 70

and 10 years ago we started on a project to build a house for our retirement

in a village where we could get buses, trains and have things

if we couldn't drive any longer. where we thought we were trying to be a bit proactive. Anyway, 10 years later, James, we have a house which is so defective

It has come in at possibly at least 50% more than the price that we budgeted for

It has taken all our life savings, and we have been left with a house that isn't yet signed off

We've lived in it for nearly four years, but it's not yet signed off by building control

I have done everything, James to try and bring the people responsible to book

but I've tried the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors because an architect surveyor company

we hired to manage our project because we didn't feel that we were capable of doing it ourselves

They selected the builders They then later on in the build when the house wasn't finished

told us to terminate the builder's contract which left us high and dry without any warranties, guarantees

information, nothing at all. And this was from scratch, this project? From scratch

So when did you smelt, what was the first rat you smelt? Well, the first rat we smelt was, well, a difficulty in the relationship with the builder himself

who was very difficult to deal with. But we plodded on with that because we thought, you know, the end

we were trying to see the end game. And we thought that possibly, you know, he was going to come good in the end

but we have I mean some of the defects are really really major. For example we spent thousands of

pounds on a because we got private sewage here we had to spend a lot of money on our drainage and

sewage system to have it designed by a special engineer. The builder completely ignored the design

bought a sort of Tesco value tank which wasn't up to the job and just put it in in the wrong place

And yet it was signed off by building control. The drainage and sewage system was signed off by building control

And the council has now found it to be not fit for purpose

This is actually quite heartbreaking. How much money do you think you've spent that you shouldn't have spent

Well, the budget for the house was around about, I think it was originally supposed to be around about £700,000

Right. And we reckon now that we have probably spent at least..

We've had to borrow money against the house because they're so old, we can't get a mortgage anymore

That was another 200,000, so we're up to 900,000. And we reckon another 500 on top of that

which cleaned us out completely. So nearly a million pounds, so £700,000 plus

Yeah. I don't know what to say. And I'm being very public about this, and I know that there will be people in Hirsby Point in this village

who are hearing this and local people, and I'm glad they're hearing it

because I just can't believe... We went to a specialist construction lawyer

and she said we had a really, really strong case. Right. But she said, and I would love

I would love to bring this case to court for you, but she said, unfortunately, there is no justice in this country anymore

unless you've got deep pockets and it will cost you between $150,000 and $300,000

to get this to court. Even with the very good prospect of winning

that's a prohibitive sum of money to ring fence. I mean, presumably you haven't got it

No, especially when you can't borrow anymore. We can't borrow anymore. I mean, some of the plans..

I don't think Andy Burnham is coming to your rescue anytime soon

I think he's going to prevent people from ending up in the position that you've ended up in

But I don't think he's going to be able to do much to make your life any easier

Can I ask you a couple of questions that you might not like? And if you don't want to answer them, then feel free not to

Yeah. How long do you think you were in denial for? When did you and your husband finally accept

that this was an absolute disaster? When we were homeless because we were supposed to be moving into our house

in time for our only daughter's wedding and it was nowhere nearly finished

and we were homeless and we were sofa surfing and going round, you know, to various friends

who were away on holiday houses. Yeah, that would focus the mind, wouldn't it? And also, we were paying so much money

for our furniture being in storage, we said we'd like to move our furniture into the house

because at least there was a part of it where it would be safe to be in the house

So the furniture was moved in. All our belongings apart from what was portable and we were moving around to different places was with us Everything was in the house It was coming on for the autumn and going into the winter And the builder would not let us have the combination lock

to get into the site or a key to get in the door

And the architect surveyor didn't have any more success in trying to get it from him either

Do you think he was trying to hide from you the state of the property

I honestly, honestly, I don't... No idea. And that's my final question

is what was he telling you throughout this process? Well, he didn't want to speak to us

But he was still on site. He was still there every day. Well, no, his site manager was there

Yeah, that's what I mean. What were they telling you? Whoever you could speak to

and you were saying this isn't right, what were they telling you? So they were telling us

that they couldn't work with the architect surveyor, and the architect surveyor was saying

they couldn't work with them. and at the time you weren't quite sure which side to pick

yeah I think it did get very difficult to pick wow I'm so sorry

I mean I wish I could say something a little bit more helpful to you

but I can't that's an absolute shocker and as far as you can tell

so you're in the house now but you keep finding things wrong with it

or there are big things well there are really really big things we've tried to sort out the sewerage situation

because in the first winter that we lived in the house, we had the septic tank emptied about 18 times in the first year

And one of those times, it was twice in one week. And if we didn't empty it..

And you weren't using the lavatory? Oh, no, no. There was only the two of us

So groundwater was getting into the septic tank, and then it was overflowing and taking contaminated water down the lane

which is a public footpath and also access to our neighbour's house

So it became a public health issue. And in your mind, this is all the builder's fault

In my mind... Well, no, in reality as well. I'm just looking for the..

Because this is a phone-in about cowboy builders. It is. It is. It is the builder's fault but it's also the architect surveyor

who was supposed to keep them on a tight rein and look after us as their clients

Yeah. You've been absolutely... Well, you've been robbed, I think. I can say that because you haven't identified anybody

but from what you have shared with us, that is an absolute horror story

And you sound completely, the word I want is competent, as somebody who would not expect to be ripped off

You knew what you were doing. You hired the right people. It just is extraordinary. That's why they're called cowboys

Because it's the Wild West. That's what Sharon has just described. The absolute absence of consequence, recourse to the law

in position unless you've got a quarter of a million pounds in your back pocket, you can't even go after them

That's mad. Your story doesn't have to involve those kind of sums, by the way

I mean, that is an eye-watering amount of money, but the principle is the same

The principle is the same and the how does it happen? Politeness is part of the problem

You're probably too polite. You should be laying down the law. Squeaky wheels get the most oil

Sharp elbows, all of that. But, you know, you're either built like that or you're not

Ah, dear. 27 after 11 is the time. And let's see if anyone's had more joy getting money back

I mean, is Sharon's experience typical? Or can you actually share a story about small claims court

You're not going to get 700 grand in a small claims court. But you take my point. Gurpreet's in Rochester

Gurpreet, what would you like to say? Hi, James. First time caller, long time listener

Welcome. Thank you. So I had a situation where I was recommended by word of mouth by someone

I then checked them on the usual online portals to see if they had any good reputation, and they did

I then hired them to do a couple of small jobs, which they were competent in doing

They didn't take any money up front, which is always a good sign when somebody's got enough money to do the job themselves

I then had a bigger project, which involved getting a kitchen changed

And the chap had said to me he'd got one of those trade cards. and if I transferred the money to his trade card

he could get a good discount. And I thought, well, that makes sense. So £8,000 transferred over

I then went away for business and it was a property which was a buy-to-let property

He apparently was getting on with the work. I had to come back early, went to visit the property

found him living in the property, sleeping in the property. None of the work had been done

I then kind of, you know, confronted him. And he said, yeah, yeah, exactly

And he said, well, my missus has kicked me out and came up with all sorts of excuses

Then followed a number of days of him promising to get on with it

Eventually, he basically disappeared. I then managed to... He's still got your eight grand

He's still got my eight thousand pounds, yes. And he hasn't charged, so he owes you rent as well, technically

but I presume you were going to let that slide. The eight grand would have been good enough

Yes, I agree. Yeah, it's a bite of lip, but that's a big picture of us. Yeah

So I then went to small claims court. I represented myself. And as a landlord, you learn to represent yourself after a while

Just, you know, you learn how to, some of the court system. So he had a CCJ issued against him by the judge

I then, he wouldn't pay. We had to go to the high court bailiffs

and there's one particular company which does the, you know, if you don't pay, we'll take it away type of situation

I went to that particular company. They then pursued him, sent agent round there a few times

He then started paying. That's a nightmare. Yeah, he started paying. I think it was on an £8,000 debt, he was offering £25 a month

I'm sorry to laugh, but goodness me. I know, it makes me laugh when I think about it

£25 a month. So he'd spent it all. I mean, yeah, exactly

And how much of it have you got back now? Well, the thing is, the company I employ, the money you see on TV

a lot of people don't know this, but whatever they get from the debtor

they keep half of it. Wow. And they give you the other half until their costs are covered

Okay. So he was paying £150 a month eventually. Right. And I was getting 75 of that

And out of a total of 8,000, I think I got about £250 back

And then there's a thing called a writ of control, which expired

And basically, the company that was representing me said, well, your writ of control has expired

You have to go back to court now to get another one and the expense associated and the time associated with that

So that's where the current situation is. You can see why Andy Burnham's targeted it

Are you still friends with the person that recommended him? I am, yes

It wasn't there for me. Well, it does sound as if he might have been all right, this guy

Just his life fell apart just when he was supposed to be sorting out your kitchen. And I'm not making excuses for him, but your friend recommended him in good faith

And then events rather overtook things. Crikey. I mean, it's not much consolation, but, you know, poor old Sharon was in the hole for over £700,000

So, small fry in comparison. But I mean you sound quite chill about it now briefly because I late for the news Is there any embarrassment involved At the the time yeah much very much so but it been a couple of years now and now kind of see things in more perspective yeah i mean we all do we all mellow with it with the passage of time but

in the middle of it you'd be like how can i you can't i'm not the kind of person that gets ripped

off flipping heck 11 32 is the time a lot of you asking me about this lake that's been renamed

supposedly in the united states of america um simon marks will be joining me after the news

headlines to talk us through what's going on there. No prizes for guessing who is having a

massive hissy fit and deciding to rename lakes. Here's Dominic Ellis with your headlines

James O'Brien on LBC. It is 25 minutes to 12. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

where once again, I invite you to sit in on the mutual support network that Simon Marks and I

have established in order to deal with the fact that it is close to impossible to report on or

chronicle the madness of Donald Trump in any traditional, recognizable, or rational way

Because I'm almost a challenge to my vocabulary sometimes. Simon seems up to the challenge

but I'm not sure I am. I can't find the words. Here's one. Here's a new phrase that I haven't

used before. There is no act too childish for him. He would never rule anything out on the

grounds that it's too childish. Have a listen to him talking in the Oval Office. This is Donald

Trump, not Simon Marks, talking in the Oval Office yesterday. The purpose of this, more than anything else, is we're going to be changing the name of Lake

Ontario, effective immediately to Lake America. That's going to take place right now as I sign

the order. Do you have anything to say about it, Ben? Yes, sir. So this is a straightforward but important executive order. It directs Secretary

Burgum and the Department of the Interior to update the Geographic Names Information Service to reflect

that the lake once known as Lake Ontario will, from the state forward, be known as Lake America

This is a lake that has most of its volume in the United States. The deepest

parts of the lake sit in the United States territory, so this will reflect

that this is an American lake. Thank you. Literally. It's like writing your name on something

in a Sharpie, isn't it, and going, Right, that's called Donald's house now

Absolutely. Well, I was joking earlier in the week. I was saying that listeners I didn't think needed to bring their atlases out

and start scratching out Lake Ontario with a felt tip pen and then writing in Lake America

And 24 hours later, he did it because there's a separate TikTok video

that he produced after signing that ludicrous executive order in which he literally has a copy of the map

and he scratches the name out Lake Ontario and replaces it with Lake America

I think you used a very important phrase at the beginning here. You talked about the madness of Donald Trump

I think we have, as the Americans would put it, over the last 24 hours and arguably earlier than that

I think we've jumped the shark. I think that you can't now debate, really

whether he has the mental capacity to serve as President of the United States

Let's put what happened yesterday into context. Today is the six-month anniversary of the beginning of his war on Iran

It was February the 28th when he made the fateful decision to wage war on Iran

It is now August the 28th. He has no way out. In that Oval Office appearance yesterday, he was asked repeatedly about why his CIA director had travelled to Moscow on a secret mission this week

Was it, as has been reported, to warn the Russians not to attack a NATO member state

And he just waves this away and says, no, I've had talks with Putin. Putin has assured me he's not going to attack NATO

Well, if you look at the congressional website, the US Congress in its library has documents that says

for many months, the Russians have actually been engaged in hybrid actions against NATO member states

He's launched this week this absolutely futile economic D-Day on Iran. There are all sorts of major issues engulfing and beleaguering a president

who is now 65 days away from November's midterm elections. And what did he decide to do yesterday

Take an action so puerile, so extraordinarily juvenile, that it is only guaranteed further to crater his approval ratings

Is it, though? Yeah. This is what you mean by jumping the chart. Apart from the odd Daily Mail columnist

no one can pretend now that this is not even worse than all of his worst critics predicted

Well, it's just pathetic. It's beyond pathetic. It's just, I mean, we went through the whole... You said puerile and juvenile

Puerile, juvenile, and pathetic. And infantile. And infantile and pathetic. I mean, we went through the Gulf of Mexico thing, right

What's that called now? The Gulf of Mexico called the Gulf of America. Has anyone changed their maps

Well, Google now on its maps has Gulf of Mexico. Underneath it in brackets, it has Gulf of America

because that is the way that Google says that it indicates disputes over the names of territories

And look, this is... I mean, he said in the Oval Office there, as he was watched on by, among others

Stephen Miller and his Interior Secretary, Doug Burgum, both of them absolute slavish sycophants

They've sent official paperwork in. I mean, he is changing what the United States..

Where's the paperwork? No, where's the lake? Oh, the lake. It's up between the United States and Canada

It's up in Michigan. It's not named, by the way, after Ontario the state. No

I mean, the name Ontario is rooted in indigenous language from hundreds and hundreds of years ago

Yes, I thought so. That refers to a beautiful place and gleaming water. So he doesn't even..

I mean, he's doing this, of course, because he's attacking Canada again at the end of a week

in which, you know, he upended through the good offices or the untrustworthy offices of his Commerce Secretary, Howard Lutnick

the Canadian trade negotiations. So there's a full-scale trade war now underway

between the United States and Canada. Mark Carney, as we talked about earlier in the week

kind of schooling leaders all over the world, including, I suspect, possibly our own

about how you deal with Donald Trump, how you confront the reality head-on

rather than imagining that there's some way that, you know, you can make all this somehow work out in the end

So, but the reason why I think it's going to, again, depress his approval ratings was two reasons

I mean, first of all, because it's just so obviously ridiculous and stupid. This is the fascinating thing, isn't it

In that people, because, you know, I'm thinking of some of the phrases that I've heard over the years

It's, oh, he's upsetting all the right people, or I know he's a liar, but I love it because it upsets you and Sadiq Khan

That was directed at me, not at you. or yeah, he's so good at baiting

But there comes a point, and you can allow people that, you know, okay, yeah, you're right

You know, if you hate racism, then Donald Trump is really going to wind you up. Or if you hate malfeasance or moral depravity

then yeah, you're right. He is going to upset all the right people. But he's renaming a lake

because he's a whopping great man-child. How do you square that with your truck-driving

patriotic, redneck kind of celebrations? We're 65 days away from midterm elections

And the real thing that is on the minds of Americans this weekend as they head to the supermarket as they fill their car up with petrol is the price of his war on Iran Six months into a massive military mobilisation

the largest since the 2003 US attack on Iraq. And the notion that he is wasting his time with this stuff

is not going to play, even with his grassroots supporters who, remember, are now on the receiving end of blandishments

from challengers to Donald Trump from within MAGA. People like Tucker Carlson, Marjorie Taylor Greene

even the ousted congressman Thomas Massey. Last week, he accused them all of being traitors

because they'd held a kind of a summit meeting at which they appeared to be discussing

their own possible political viability in the future as they position themselves as future challengers

for the MAGA leadership. The other reason, oddly, why I think this is going to damage him

is because it comes at the end of a week in which the country has united around one unexpected issue

and that is the death of Dolly Parton. I knew you were going to say that. A woman who never performed on a political stage

never played a political rally, whose viewpoints were very clear, if you listen to her music and you see the occasional things that she said

that were political, but the fact that that united the country at a time of total polarisation and tribal division

I think is a further reminder to many Americans of just how far the country has drifted down this hard right

populist, ludicrous path where you just get an atlas out and you scratch out the name of Lake Ontario

and you rename it Lake America. That's not solving any problems for anyone

and he's going to pay the price for that in the midterms. Well, you know, we've been here before

Well, not quite. I mean, I still can't believe he got in again as president, but these midterms, remember, remember the 3rd of November

could be crucial. And it would just mean he then limps, well, either he limps towards ignominy

or he goes absolutely all in on the madness. Yeah, well, that's my concern

I know, you were one of the first people to articulate that. I think that he's particularly unpredictable

and potentially dangerous when he's cornered. And if we look at what the polls are showing

it seems absolutely evident that the Democrats are going to romp to victory

in the House of Representatives. And certainly Steve Bannon, his own on-again, off-again political advisor

has been sounding the alarm publicly about his concern that the Republicans

may even be about to lose the Senate. And he doesn't blame Trump for that

He blames the Republican leader in the Senate for refusing to pass the Save America Act

which, of course, is the measure that would upend the midterms entirely

by suddenly requiring that every single person that casts a vote first has to prove they are an American citizen

And how you could possibly make those arrangements right now, given that we're two months away from election day, is open to question

It's funny, because the Tories did something similar, and it backfired, Jacob Rees-Mogg argued

So this presumption that if we introduce voter ID, then it will discriminate against more left-leaning voters

Jacob Rees-Mogg, who, I mean, even a stock clock is right twice a day, so he may have been right about this, he may not

The presumption is that that would aid Republicans. It's not necessarily true

Yeah, well, Democrats fervently believe that it would aid Republicans because they believe that if you introduce voter ID

they believe that that is targeted at their core constituencies, some of them, particularly African Americans

and minority voters in the United States that may not necessarily immediately have access to voter ID

have hands on it. The Republicans say that's absolutely ludicrous. Everybody's got a driving license or an alternative ID

You've got the capacity to show up at the polls. And if you haven't, what on earth is wrong with you

But the Democrats also fear. This is part of a broader voter suppression effort that Donald Trump is engaged in

even talking about the possibility, as some of his lieutenants have done

about deploying ICE and the Border Patrol at polling stations because he wants evidence potentially to build the argument

that in various parts of the country where Republicans lose, illegal things were taking place at the polls

But the presence of ICE in the Border Patrol would also clearly suppress the vote

more likely among Democrat supporters than Republicans. Got it. Only half of Americans have a passport, give or take

Passport, yes. Driving licence, more than that. No, of course. but it is a remarkable statistic

It is, absolutely. And half of them have got one. I don't know what the percentage of them is

that can't find the passport that they've got, but I suspect that that's quite significant as well

I'm getting a lot of ribbing for asking you where Lake Ontario was. I didn't realise

I mean, I did realise, because we studied it at school. It's one of the five Great Lakes. It's with Great Lakes

Yeah, sorry. Michigan, Superior, Ontario. Michigan, Superior, Ontario. I didn't know we were doing a geography

Well, hang on. Let's have a listen to that TikTok clip that you were just talking about instead

So this is Lake Ontario in Canada and in the United States

But we're going to make a little change. We're going to call it something different than Lake Ontario

We're going to call it Lake America. And all it takes is a good pen and some intelligence

So Lake Ontario, that's gone. Lake America. And so now we have a lake and now we have a gulf because we have the Gulf of America

Now we have Lake America without the of. Thank you very much, everybody

Enjoy Lake America. He's literally like a kid in that clip with crayons and a coloring book

I mean, that's what it comes across. I hadn't heard that. And then in the Oval Office yesterday, he also muted the possibility that we've got a lake now, we've got a gulf, the Gulf of America, but we don't have an ocean

So he said yesterday, he's thinking that maybe he's going to rename either the Atlantic Ocean or the Pacific Ocean or both of them

And there was no indication that this was necessarily a gag. Well, you can't say it was a gag

Well, they will say it was a gag. But you can't. We can't. Absolutely. We'll be sitting here in a week and then you'll have renamed it Trump-tion

The Ocean of America. The Ocean of America. I mean, the mind... I'm going to play that again

Honestly, I am. Because, you know, there are still people around who used to use the phrase Trump derangement syndrome

to describe those of us who could see pretty clearly what was going to happen

Although, I've got to be completely honest, I don't think anybody foresaw things being this pathetic, tragic, infantile, juvenile, all of the above

And somehow also worse. So this is Lake Ontario in Canada and in the United States

But we're going to make a little change. We're going to call it something different than Lake Ontario

We're going to call it Lake America. And all it takes is a good pen and some intelligence

So Lake Ontario, that's gone. Lake America. So now we have a lake

And now we have a gulf. because here we have the... Golf of America, now we have Lake America

Without the of. Thank you very much, everybody. Enjoy Lake America. Without the of

Without the of. You're back at four. I am. And then you're back tomorrow

I am tomorrow between three and six, and then Monday between four and seven. And then you're going to have a rest

A little rest. Yeah, without the of. Thank you, Simon Marks. James O'Brien on LBC

11.53 is the time. That is the clip, isn't it? That's probably the one

After all these years of playing Eclipse of Donald Trump being Donald Trump, that's probably the one that is most emblematic of his absolute idiocy

Anyway, Alec Brown is the Labour leader of Redcut and Cleveland Borough Council

He's not here to talk about Donald Trump. He's here to talk about Middlesbrough. And I know you were busy this morning, Alec

but we spent an hour trying to work out what is going on in that beleaguered city

So I'll ask you that question first, if I may. James and that's why I'm happy that you've

invited me on the show, the Webble League is a strong one yes

certainly people are feeling unsafe in their own homes and this is why

I'm doing the media rounds because I absolutely want to reassure the people especially in Southbank

and Grangetown that myself, the police Red Car and Cleveland Council, Middlesbrough Council

we're all trying our utmost to achieve exactly that to have good

law-abiding citizens, which makes up the majority of these estates, feel safe in their own home and

for their own children. So what's the backdrop, Alec? Is it, I mean, a background hum of illegality

and criminality that has, in the last week, broken through and dominated these regions

these areas, these communities? Well, the two major incidents that happened is in Southbank

in his Grangetown and the two of the most deprived wards in the entire country, they actually border

each other and to lose nine lives in the space of six days is unprecedented

James and you can imagine if that had happened within half a mile of your own streets

I wouldn't say if you would feel in your own home and that's exactly what where you

are trying to achieve, I mean the national media are following police cars around

I was in an update with the superintendent yesterday going to every incident

So, yes, the episodes that have happened are absolutely serious and we need swift action

However, police calls to the police, the superintendent reported yesterday, was actually down for the last week than it was the week before

but it's just the heightened presence and exposure as an area that we're having

It's impossible. God, sorry, James. Well, it's impossible, isn't it, to not be frightened

and yet statistically as you say there's less reason to be frightened this week than there was

a month ago i mean it is it's it's it's an almighty mess can i clarify what you think is

going on or what you know is going on is it go on yeah i most certainly don't want to say that

there's less reason to be scared because nine deaths within the space of five days of course

there's absolutely reason for any parent brother mother father to be concerned in their own homes

and this is what we're all working towards and achieving, you know, what people..

The most basic right for them to feel safe for their own children in their own homes

Yeah, I was just referencing the numbers of calls to the police service on that front

but you're absolutely right. The statistics do not influence or indeed control the responses to the horrors

that have been witnessed in the last week. Is it rival criminal gangs that are going after each other

without any care for the collateral damage? Is that what you think is going on

I don't want to be in a position where I'm heightening any sort of fees people have or to speculate

The police asked us, the superintendent that I was in a meeting with yesterday

was doing 20-hour days with Air Force to ensure the safety of people, by the way

Asked us not to speculate. They're not ruling out any links, and I'll let the media be led by what the police are saying

Well, and I've got no interest in sensationalism or speculation. I just wondered if you might have an insight

but we'll all wait for the authorities to do their job. And speaking of that, finally, Alec, what are they going to do

I mean, in terms of the 200 specialist officers that are making their way to the region from nearby forces

what will the on-the-ground operation involve to contain and undo the current crisis

Well, that's a good question. And we're, of course, asking for visibility

People always talk about the old traditional Bobby on the beat. And I think that visibility is absolutely what people are craving for

I mean, I will say the Cleveland police response to this day

even without the judicial resource, has been nothing short than spectacular. Officers that were two or three days ago mourning the sudden loss of colleagues

two days later on the side of one of the most horrific things any adult wants to see and that

that's the death of a child within within hours they'd made two arrests on that house fire and

you know so i just want to reassure people out there that cleveland police are absolutely

fighting tooth and nail to ensure that people are safe for their own communities um and and finally

the question that we were wrestling with in the first hour of the program today is is there anything

specific or peculiar to Middlesbrough that explains the, I mean, the statistics tell us that it is

currently the most dangerous place to live in England and Wales. We had some fascinating

suggestions involving history, involving politics, involving even geography. Do you think there's

anything peculiar to Middlesbrough that explains the current crisis? And when you've got some of

the most deprived wards in the entire country, I mean, Rickham and Cleavering Council, we've got the

I think the fourth or the fifth most children in care per capita

if you look at per capita population. And I don't think it takes an Albert Einstein to work out

that if you go through 10, 15, nearly 20 years of austerity

you cut away all that preventative historic mental health support that was there, then 10, 15 years down the line

you're going to see young people feeling disassociated, feeling like they haven't got a future

And it's amongst myself, council, local authorities, to win back the hearts and minds of these young people

and not to criminalise themselves before their lives even begun. Yeah, nicely put. Thank you, Alec

And good luck. Alec Brown, the Labour leader of Redcar and Cleveland Borough Council, as you can hear

I'm profoundly concerned about events on his patch, which will continue, I suspect, to dominate the national news agenda for some time

It is now 12 noon. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. It's possibly the final day of the silly season

as journalists have always called this period of August. I don't know. It might extend into next week

But I got an absolute classic silly season question for you after this James O on LBC It four minutes after 12 Listen this is a haunting story in a way but also potentially quite an uplifting one

It's up to you, really. I read earlier in the week that the Royal Devon University Healthcare NHS Foundation

had suspended births at the hospital that it runs in Barnstaple due to staffing issues

now this means that women in north devon have extremely long journeys to make to give birth

and as a consequence of that they were offering instruction and guidance on what to do

if you found yourself giving birth in your car or indeed somebody else's car in the car

I really like this story because it means I can ask you

if you've ever delivered a baby 03456060973 I want to make something absolutely clear

if you're a midwife you're not allowed to ring in unless you weren't on duty

and you were somewhere unlikely like the top of the Empire State Building or down a well alright

so I mean that is essentially going to be the question because i i just find it extraordinary i was absolutely

useless in the birthing ward i mean truly useless i here's the thing i bet you weren't expecting me

to tie this in with the conversation about cowboy builders were you but i'm about to

when i said to you i'm very trusting i presume that they know what they're doing

i'm the same with midwives as i am with builders i am with midwives now i'm not aware

of many cowboy midwives out there running around without the correct qualifications

spreading mayhem and misery in their wake. But when Mrs. O'Brien was in the business of giving birth

and she was a little concerned about a couple of things and she wanted me to go and, you know

bang some heads together or make some inquiries, I was not great

I've made up for it since and I got better in the course of that first labour. But initially I was like

no, I'm sure you don't need to worry, darling. I'm sure they know what they're doing. I'm sure they know that you're okay because there should be someone here

You know, my contractions of something, something. And I said, no, don't worry

And then, all right, I'll go out. And you go out and everyone's running around. They're all really busy

It's not like you open a door on the labour ward and find eight midwives sitting around smoking

They're all busy. So you kind of have to interrupt someone in the middle of doing that

looking after someone and say, excuse me, no one's seen my wife for about 40 minutes

Could someone come and... So I was shockingly bad at it. It was a combination of basic uselessness

and a form of social anxiety. And I don't want to tell anybody how to do their job

I don't even tell Keith how to do his job. And I wish someone would. I just kind of don't have that kind of character

I don't have that mentality. So the idea... Oh, my days, I'm feeling faint just thinking about it

the idea of being in the car and my contribution to becoming a father was passing my driving test

i think i've told you this i never learned to drive i just never got around to it combination

of boarding school and busy being busy and having a girlfriend who could drive which i never got

around to it so i'm like 30 when mrs o'brien is is pregnant with our first child older than 30 and

she says you're gonna have to pass your driving test i'm not driving myself to the late to the

hospital when my waters break and i thought crikey that's that's feminism so i'm so i'm so i went to

learn to drive uh so that i could drive mrs o'brien to the hospital when um when her waters broke and

that was stressful enough driving you know if you're not familiar with it and you come to it

quite late you're not like one of those boy racers who bombs around the place thinking that he's nigel mantle that's not the great reference is it for the youngsters thinking that you're lewis

Hamilton. So I was stressed enough driving. Could you imagine if I'd had to

pull out? I was having palpitations at the thought of going round and round about. Could you

imagine if I'd had to pull over and deliver a baby? Sheesh

But you did, and that's why you're going to call me. 03456060973

Typical rights, Vinnie. James is doing another pro-Labour story. Round of applause for Vinnie, I think

Or metaphorically. But yeah, well done. Well done. See? Keith, on his toes

Go on. It's not, of course, confined to this corner of Devon

There will be many circumstances in which you didn't get there in time or the waters broke unexpectedly early or whatever it may be

I just want to hear the story. And I'll tell you what I'd really like

that you thought you were as useless as me. It doesn't have to be a bloke. It could be, you know, it could be your sister or your friend

you delivered the baby. Even you could perhaps have been on your own

That must be really scary. Not as scary as driving around a roundabout

when you've only been driving for six months, but it's still pretty scary to give birth alone

And so, I mean, what do you even... I don't know anything about any of this. 0345 60 60 973

It's not a motoring topic, because you don't have to be in the car. You could be anywhere

You could be in a lift or down a well. The point is that you either gave birth alone

or you delivered a baby. 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need

And this is it. And this is why they've had to do it down in Devon

They've had to sort of issue advice on what to do if you don't get there in time

Here's an example here from the Devon side of Exmoor, Paracombe. If we'd waited, we probably would have had to have our baby in a car park

She said she would have gone to North Devon District Hospital in Barnstable, but due to the Foundation Trust suspending maternity services

she had to drive 51 miles to a hospital in Exeter. God, that would have broken me

It was hard enough driving two and a half miles. Did I ever tell you what happened on the way home from the hospital

when I'd been driving for like 10 minutes in total? So I didn't forget how to drive, no

But I was driving home in the early hours of the morning and all the cars coming towards me kept flashing at me

And I kept thinking to myself, how do they know I've just had a baby? Oh, that's so nice, but how do they know

I was delirious at this point. And, of course, I hadn't turned the headlights on

I don't think I'd driven in the dark before. I'd never turned the headlights on. All the cars were driving down, driving around West London

no headlights on. I may still be suffering the after-effects of all the gas and air

that I thought I'd better test, just to make sure that it wasn't going to do Mrs O'Brien any harm

I remembered snacks. I didn't realise when I was at the antenatal classes

and they said, do remember to pack snacks. I thought they meant for me, so I took a pork pie

I took a pork pie to the left. So, as I say, I would have been the last man, person, human being

possible to do a good job of delivering a baby. So you rose to the challenge

Where were you, and what did you do? I mean, obviously, only want happy stories, I think, on this one

or at least stories that have a vaguely comical dimension Hit the numbers now you will get through 0 Nothing funny about it of course if you are scared about what you going to do

and how far you're going to have to drive. But the warnings, you get turned away as well, don't you

You sometimes get told you're not ready yet, you're not sufficiently dilated

or you come in a little bit early and we haven't got the bed, so you drive home and you go back again

It is very simply the kind of story that used to make the local news

or get you on That's Life with Esther Ransom, and you delivered a baby yourself with no training

no background, no knowledge. You just found yourself absolutely, with absolutely no choice

That is the simplest possible inquiry that I can make. Have you ever delivered a baby

or did you give birth on your own? That's even more interesting in a way, isn't it

I can see the circumstances in which it might happen. And the thing is, even if you're in France

they calculate the due date differently from how they calculate it here. So there's no, it's not like

this is one of the things you only learn when you're going down this path for the very first time. It's not science

Well, it is science, but it's not completely foolproof. It's not reliable

Due dates are written in sand. You've got no real way of guaranteeing

that you're going to be in the right place when it happens. It's just that the massive majority of us are

But it has to be done, for the purposes of this conversation, in the absence of any trained professionals

You had to do it yourself. I want to know what it was like

The classic question on this programme. Or you were on your own and you gave birth

It's coming up to 14 minutes after 12. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC

Josh and Barry will be up first after the next hydration break. And at half past 12 today, I mentioned her yesterday

but it occurred to me on the way home that we really should catch up with Lucy Eastope about the unfolding situation in Nepal

I mean, hideous, hideous footage coming out of that borderland between Nepal and Tibet

and the death toll still rising and the missing still missing. But Lucy is one of the people on this planet

who flies towards situations like that, whose career has been essentially emergency

first instance emergency response. And so I thought we'd have another look

at the question of what on earth happens now. How do you begin to help in areas that you can't even get to

What will the emergency responders be doing in Nepal and beyond as we speak

And if anyone can tell us, she can. It's coming up to quarter past 12. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC

The time now is quarter past 12. James O'Brien on LBC. What have we done during the silly season this year

Have you ever fainted? What was the other one? So this is the part of the year where the stories are

because Parliament is not sitting, the news agenda is a little bit different from usual

So we did Have You Ever Fainted, and we did one other as well last Friday or the Friday before

Have you ever fainted? Have you ever... What was the other one, Keith? Am I the only one that pays attention around here

And now we're doing Have You Ever Delivered a Baby? Parliament's back next week

You'll be very relieved to hear. Josh is in Torquay, which isn't far, is it, from the part of the world that we're talking about, Josh

What happened? What's your story? Hi, James. Long-time listener, first-time caller. Well, can I apologise then, please, for never having said before

while you've been listening to the programme, have you ever delivered a baby? Because then you would not be a first..

You could have been on years ago if I'd got around to this before, but better late than never, Josh. Better late than never

What happened? So my lovely girlfriend at the time, wife now, she was at bingo the night before

at three weeks till the delivery date. she won £12 which caused her to break her waters

she gone to that I did midwives and stuff they said go home because you've got no contractions

nothing really sort of happened until so her waters broke at the bingo

her waters broke because she won £12 that sounds like a George Formby song doesn't it

and because her waters broke she went to the hospital and the hospital said

don't worry nothing urgent you'll be fine you'll come back in a couple of weeks

yeah yeah basically nothing sort of come back till next afternoon because it would be

24 hours sorry not a couple of weeks of course not yeah and um got to sort of sort of half past

four the next day and she sort of was like oh i'm starting to feel something yeah and so i called

the midwives up and they said oh yeah we'll send someone around to assess you but no sooner had i

sort of put the phone down to her to the midwives that they she sort of grabbed me by the scruff of

and I said, I need to push. I mean, I know everyone else is interested in your wife in this situation

I'm not. I'm interested in how you felt in that moment, mate. Like, man to man

Absolutely terrified. I was in my early 20s, and I'd done a bit of first aid for the job I was working

Oh, okay. But nothing. No preparation, no idea what I was doing

And the only thing I ever didn't do was get the name of the guy on the end of the phone

to the amblements people. So I rang the midwives back and just screamed at them down the phone

She says she needs to push. And they said, put the phone down, call an amblements

which I did. And the lovely chap on the phone guided me through everything

I had to tell our older child, who was a toddler at the time, to go and wait in his bedroom

while mummy says a lot of swear words. What was it, sitting room floor

No, leather sofa. Oh, that's nice. Wipe clean. It did indeed. No, we got rid of it quite quickly afterwards

But yeah, we had to go and he said, you know, go to the cupboard, wash your hands, grab as many towels as you can

Right. I do remember when my wife listens to this later, she'll kill me

But I did say to her, oh, look, I can use those horrible towels we got, you know, that we don't like

Good man. I like it. Covering up. So did you go into autopilot or not

Yeah, basically, the whole world switched off and I focused completely on what this guy on the end of the phone was saying

And that was it. I was, you know, I was in the business area catching my second time

How long did it take? Lou was incredibly, sorry, that was my wife

Very, very quick from beginning to end was no more than 35 minutes

Wow. So the ambulance didn't arrive then? Literally, they walked through the door as I caught him

And you went, what time do you call this? To be honest, I didn't notice they were there

until they took him out of my hands. So I was a bit too... How extraordinary

In the moment, yeah. Did you cut the umbilical? I did, yes

They were there and took over from them. So you did it in that way, that kind of..

Yes, yeah, yeah. And he... Other than he was a bit cold

because the little darling wouldn't stay still long enough for me to wrap him up in a towel

Quite tricky, that, actually. Yes, yes. Quite wriggly. And, I mean, did it bring you..

I mean, I don't want to ask a silly question there because we've reached the moving bit

I think, you know, I peaked with the white clean comment about your leather sofa

and now I want to go back to the caring and genuinely interested in the emotional impact of it all Because I presume it would have brought you closer I mean just being there brings you closer but being being the deliverer of the baby did it did you think it brought you closer do you think it changed the kind of dynamic slightly in that moment in that moment yes it was

quite uh it was quite a wow this is this is my son i mean i'd already had one son at this point

but we you know we yeah but she did all the work on that one yes yeah she was she was the one

and from my point of view, it was like, wow, this is quite a miracle

And I was so thankful nothing went wrong. And he's beautiful and happy and healthy

He's just going into his second year of secondary school now. And it was pretty special

It was pretty special. It's a lovely story. I'm going to ask you a question. If you play this to your wife later

you don't need to include this bit, all right? So I'm going to do a fake goodbye

I've spoiled it now. All right, thank you, Josh. Take care. All right, mind how you got..

Anyway, Josh, come back a minute. Yep. Do you feel that you got the credit you deserve

Yes, yes, I did. A lot of people were very complimentary about me saying..

I should hope so. I should hope so. Because, you know, I mean, the giving birth element of it

although tricky, kind of what we're designed for as human beings. You were not trained to do your bit or indeed design

You stepped up, mate. Thank you, James. You're very welcome. I am proud of you, Josh

It was my name that was on the... It was my... It was Dad Delivers Baby on the newspaper, so I got the..

You got it in the paper? Yes. Oh, sensational. This is a magnificent story

Oh, what lovely stuff, Josh. Love to you both. Love to you all, in fact. It is 22 minutes

Hang on, final question. You didn't consider a career change then afterwards? Do you know what

Genuinely, I did, actually. I genuinely did. Because it is such a magical thing

You thought, imagine doing this every day. But you didn't. Yes, yeah. But you didn't. And then it was when the moment dawned on me

that actually sometimes this doesn't go very well. Of course. I thought to myself, actually, no

I think I don't think it's cut out for it. That's a really important point

And of course, while we have fun with these conversations, we have nothing but love and sympathy for anybody

who would find this almost unbearable to listen to because of things that they went through

The other thing that Keith forgot was, have you ever been attacked by a wild animal? So we've done, have you ever fainted at the sight of something

I don't think they've been our best phone-ins. Luckily, Josh has knocked this one out of the park already

so we can take this one to the bank. I don't think that, have you ever fainted at the sight of something

delivered what I hoped it would deliver. And then we did, have you ever been attacked by a wild animal

That was pretty good, because we've got a lion, an actual lion. have you ever landed a plane

maybe next August take Eleanor jot this down will you next August maybe have you ever landed a plane

like just through air traffic control talking to I might take this week off next year actually

but anyway have you ever landed a plane that could go on the list but we need a new story to

sort of hook it on 24 after 12 is the time Neil's in Wigan Neil what happened

hello I'm a heating engineer Yeah, I'd been with a colleague attending an eating emergency

Yeah. And when we came out of there, the next door lady was screaming from upstairs

help, help, I'm having a baby, I'm having a baby, and all that lot. And I'm thinking, oh, shit, here we go

You can't say that on the radio. We just had to, listen, I just had to dump a little bit of what you said

No criticism. I just said exactly the same thing in the same circumstances. But don't use any more swear words, all right? Okay

That's all right. Carry on, Neil. I feel like a teacher now. You've made me feel like a headmaster

So just... You're all right, June. Go on, then. So anyway, I said, well, can you let me in

Can you let us in? Yeah. So she said, get me an ambulance, get me an ambulance

Anyway, she had two other children, one at 18 months old and one at three-year-old

She sent the three-year-old down to let us in, which was absolutely crazy

Yeah. We got in there. She was upstairs on the bed, no bottoms on

I've never seen my younger colleague turn white as much in my life

So she's enigmatic. Please don't. She went, I won't push. I won't push. I went, please, love, don't push

Don't push. We were already on the phone to the ambulance, to 999

Yeah, I couldn't tell a word what they were saying because she was screaming so much. She was hepping and blinding, ranting and raving

She was trying to get hold of her husband and a friend. Kids are running about all over

And I said, listen to my colleague. I said, can you take them children in the other room and all that

But anyway, she said, I won't push, I won't push. I said, please don't push, please don't push

Why didn't you want her to push? You wanted to wait for the professionals to arrive. For the professionals to arrive

But they can't not push, Neil. That's the whole point, isn't it? I know, I know, I know

But then the paramedic lady was on the phone to me. So I've got the phone in one ear

I've got the kids running round me. I've got the colleague, didn't know what put his face

She's there screaming, ranting and raving. I couldn't tell a bloody word what the lady was saying

That's last warning, though. Don't get me into trouble, Neil. Carry on. I'll try not to

So anyway, when I looked down, the baby's head was there. And they had a little captain's bed as well at the side of her bed

because obviously the little ones must have come in every morning and all that lot. And she just pushed the baby

And I managed to grab the blanket off the captain's bed and deliver the baby

And I'm just full of all sorts, all my pants and everything and all that lot, full of all sorts

but the cord was slightly round her ear. So I had to move the cord out the way of her ear

so that she'd come further out and all that lot. And so then the lady showed you

why is she not crying? Why is she not crying? And she was blue and all that lot. And it's mad how natural it was

to see the mucus in the baby's mouth and just turn her over and rub her back

And I'm thinking, please, God, please, please. Do you know what I mean? I was just going with it, nipper bottom, and then she screamed

Oh, my God. Absolutely crazy. And then the next thing is, the paramedics are there

and they're there, can we check over? And I went, it's all under control

And I've never seen as many ambulances or things, because apparently if she was going to the hospital

there'd have to be two ambulances, and then they also have to look after the children and all that

So it was just absolutely mad. You're a superstar. You're an absolute superstar

Do you know, it was my first day of the new job as well

Did you ever go back and check? Yeah, I did go back

We had a few photos taken together and all that lot, but, you know, I'm a bit private

Yeah, no, you don't want to be an impassive. Of course you're a bit private. I mean, you wouldn't have done it

unless you'd been screaming out the window. There was no one else there. You look around, someone else is going to go

You realise it's got to be you. Next thing you know, you're catching. All I'm saying is, I mean, obviously I'm pushing 60

What I'm saying is it's more natural than you think to be able to help

I don't think there was anything. I did anything out of the ordinary

And I think that you have me. decent blow would have done exactly the same thing

I hope you're right. I think you are, and I hope you are, but, of course, none of us will know

It's easy for you to say, because you did do the right thing when the opportunity presented itself

but, my goodness me, what a story. Neil, you're an absolute legend, mate

You really are. That is absolutely incredible, and we got away with it as well, I think

We had to dump the one word, and then the other one was okay, and we didn't go anywhere for the hat trick

That is absolutely incredible. I've got a WhatsApp from Donna. I mean, I'm just going to suggest cautiously

that we may not have peaked yet on this phone-in, which I think we can all agree is already

by far the best silly season phone-in of 2026. It's better than have you ever been attacked by a wild animal

even though we got a lion, and it's a lot better than have you ever fainted at the sight of something

which was good, but nowhere near as good as it could have been. and I'm going to actually not take the blame for that one

I always do this. I always say, that phone didn't go as well as it should have done. And then I say, and that's probably my fault

for not setting it up right or not. I think that was your fault. I think there were loads of great stories out there

about you were too hot to ring in or you couldn't be bothered or you just sort of..

I'm going to blame you for that one. That one that didn't work that well. Have you ever fainted at the sight of something

So we might come back and do that again at some point. Possibly next summer, after we've done

have you ever landed a plane? Here's Tim Humphrey with your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC

Minutes after 12, you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC, where we welcome back onto the programme now one of our favourite people, Lucy Eastope

an international advisor on disaster recovery and the author of Come What May

Life-Changing Lessons for Coping with Crisis, because as the situation in Nepal continues to understandably dominate the international news agenda

hundreds of people still missing, the death toll rising, Lucy's job was, is to rush towards these

kind of scenarios or to oversee the emergency response, which is one of those phrases that we

all use without having the first idea what it means. The latest, as you probably know, is that

an overflowing lake in Tibet is, there are fears it may unleash a second flood in the area of Nepal

that is already disaster hit. And the reason why I wanted to talk to Lucy, not least

is because an awful lot of these areas can't even be reached. So how on earth do you respond to an emergency

that you can't even reach, Lucy? And what will people in your line of work be doing right now

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. And this is really a period of watchful waiting

which is incredibly frustrating. It's reminding me, actually, very different circumstances in one way but very similar in another

of the days in the aftermath of the tsunami and earthquake in Japan and then the Fukushima nuclear

reactor. What we're seeing inside Britain's response at the moment is a real attempt to

get information. It's very, very hard to put responders in and that second lake is a real

concern. I've got trusted colleagues on social media who are saying that at the moment really

the only international help that's been accepted has been from South Korea and we do not have a

a particularly large presence going out, but we do have a lot of work being done here

and led by Ed Miliband. What kind of work will that be? At the moment, again, and it's very similar

very reminiscent for me for Japan. I'm only observing, I'm not responding at the moment

but it's very similar to that period of kind of gathering information on the hydrology and the geography

These are these very massive ice rock avalanches, which we were told to predict as part of climate change

But as you'll be feeling as well, this summer it's like everything's come at once

It's incredibly hard to brief ministers on the theoretical. So what will be happening today is our ministers will be being briefed on the realities of this geology

which is one of the worst case scenarios. And I'm very conscious that there are families listening who will be waiting for news

The Foreign Office have a number that people can call. and at this stage all that really does is take information from you so these hours are starting

to feel like weeks for those families who are worried. That's very powerfully put and then when

the situation has become clearer and the business of looking after people whose entire lives have

been washed away what what happens then? So there's two strands really it's quite an interesting test

because obviously what Britain has done is it's it's folded its development work into its foreign

office and these are two different responses from britain so one is a development and support

response and aid response and then the other is something i would describe as a bit more sharp

elbowed which is actually to support our british citizens and those are two responses the same

minister in charge ed milliman but two very different responses very sadly this is pretty

much one of the worst case scenarios for getting information to families and also sadly getting

their relatives back to them. This will be a very long drawn out process and one thing that I think

the Foreign Office are preparing for is to gather those families and be able to update as best they

can but we have very little reach into that area at the moment. What is that? I don't want to be

indelicate but I mean these people are just waiting for their phone to ring right at the moment

Yes and often that call really doesn't come for a very long time. There isn't international

coordination at the moment this is one of the most politically fraught areas to try and respond

internationally to in the past when we've responded for earthquakes there's also i write about this in

when the dust settles there's some hostility sometimes to the to the british offers of help

and british intervention is seen as quite colonialist so we are in a very delicate stage

of negotiation what i always say in these points is what is needed is donations of money and there's

There's a number of schemes. I haven't seen the DEC one yet, but I can see them for UNICEF to help the children in the region very, very crucially

And we've had this conversation before and it often comes from the best of intentions, but money's the only thing worth giving

Yes, please. No donations, second hand items. Nobody wants any blankets or clothes or anything like that Money money money money I understand the post context of what you described What are the other reasons why this is a politically fraught area So there a very very tense relationship obviously with China Already we seen disputes as to whose dams did what where the rivers and the waters have come from There will be a very delicate very delicate approach

I've been very interested actually watching the American media. I often compare and see what the American media

and indeed their responders and response are doing. And it's been quite a nuanced and sensitive diplomatic response

not very heavy handed. And we're obviously mirroring that. There's obviously the challenge around Tibet as well

Aid in this area has traditionally been very political and it's come with strings attached

So we're watching very closely on that aspect. We have, as the Prime Minister said yesterday

incredible search and rescue teams, but this is probably not the place we're going to be allowed to use them

When would we expect workers to be making their way to the area

Or is that a silly question? I'm not even sure we will

There's a couple of factors that are very up in the air. One is the risk assessment about the risk to those responders

and the other is the diplomatic. What we will see from British citizens

I am certain is much more a request from Britain to do more

because it will feel like they are in an absolute limbo. Yeah. And finally, you may not want to answer this, which is fine

but quite a few of my listeners yesterday and now today as I talk to you are a little bit confused by the figure of £5 million

that Andy Burnham announced yesterday and suggesting that sounds quite paltry, but that would be par for the course in the current situation

yes it's a very initial amount probably to to structure initial uh what we call maslow's basic

needs food water shelter um and then looking looking more broadly and holistically at the plan

um there will be an there will be an additional budget being negotiated in the foreign office

right now to support the british citizens because what people need to understand and it's the same

police officers that are responding to everything else from riots to to road traffic collisions is

If we are asked to and if we can, we will deploy British police officers to support the identification effort

And that is a millions of pound response. So that is a different budget to this

And that's where I would expect Ed Miliband to be briefing Andy Burnham today

Thank you, Lucy. You're brilliant at explaining this stuff. But obviously, that's a small part of what you do

You can read more about what Lucy does and what people like her do in the book that I mentioned

come what may, but also in the book that she mentioned, when the dust settles, searching for hope after disaster

Because we use these phrases all the time, like emergency response, or we hit that figure of £5 million

without knowing much about it. I also interviewed Lucy on Full Disclosure a couple of years ago

and that's worth a listen as well. I'm not to distract any attention or concern

away from the actual tragedy unfolding in Nepal and Tibet as we speak, that death toll now

estimated to be 547, but it will be considerably higher than that

by the time any semblance of normality is restored to that corner of the planet

You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I'm going to read you this from Donna

just to set the tone, to turn the gears back to where we were before

Dear James, writes Donna, a few years ago, I was at the hospital as my son had broken his foot

playing sport and was there for a check-up. After the scan, I left him by the entrance to go and get the car

and bring it around as he was struggling to walk. This is the fear, isn't it, that you end up

like Alan up in Bolton, you just end up, and that accent was pure Fred Dibner, wasn't it

That's the Fred Dibner accent, I think? That was just perfect. It almost got contagious then

In the hospital car park, a woman shouted, The baby is coming! Help me

You just look the other way, right? This poor woman, who'd been turned away from one hospital

because there wasn't enough room, had been told to travel to this hospital. She was hunched over a car crying with her bloody hands

and that's bloody as in blood on them, not bloody as in Alan said, on a couple of cars that she'd crawled past

Dad had dashed up to A&E to get her a wheelchair. The poor, poor woman

not being very good with blood or medical things. I looked around in the hope that someone more competent than me

would be rushing to her rescue, but no one did, so I rushed over there

and as I got there, all I could do, I just muttered, it will be okay. As soon as I got there

she pulled down her joggers and told me to get down there and the baby's head was there and this

poor woman's baby literally just slipped into my arms. Unbelievably in capital letters and I think

on this occasion we'll allow them, the baby was fine. The poor dad missed everything but came flying

down with some paramedics while another woman came over and covered her up for modesty's sake

and helped her to stay upright because my hands were full. The poor mum was shaking and crying so

much she wasn't even able to hold her baby. I let Dad and the paramedics take

over and visited them later in the hospital that night, and baby was no

worse off for its bumpy start to life. Andy's been in touch. He wants to

know whether Neil actually did manage to fix the boiler next door. Was it Neil

or Alan? It was Neil. Why am I calling him Alan? Why am I calling him Alan

Keith? No idea. 12.43 is the time. Sav's in Bognor Regis. Sav, what made you pick up the phone

Oh, hi, James. Well, I had an experience with my second son

and luckily I'd read a book about what to do in an emergency, giving birth

And I'd been in labour all day. My mum and dad came round and we had a Chinese takeaway

What did you have? Can you remember? Oh, I can't remember. It's 49 years ago

Spare ribs, probably. Sweet and sour prawn. Oh, yeah. Yeah, carry on

And I just kept walking backwards and forwards in the kitchen, trying to sort of control the, you know, pains

Anyway, then I was sick, and so my mum and dad... My mum was in a wheelchair, by the way

And they said, all right, we'll go. The maternity unit was at the end of the road

Okay. Anyway, once they'd gone, I sort of laid down. Hang on where did they go Oh they went home Oh I thought they were saying we got to go They were going to take you to the maternity unit You giving birth and they went home

No, well, yeah, yeah, let me get on with it. Who paid for the Chinese? My dad

Okay, fair enough. Carry on. So because I started to relax, I think I suddenly realized I wanted to push

So I'm lying on the bed and I thought, right, okay, I've got to lift the head up as and when it comes out

My husband ran off and phoned them and said, you better come back

Phoned your parents? My parents. Not the hospital, not the ambulance. No, I know

So I'm giving birth and my mum came in and I said

right, you need to lift him up and I'm still pushing. Did it not occur, sorry to interrupt

did it not occur to anybody to phone the relevant authorities? I don't think so

No, I'm not criticising. I'm just curious. It was very bizarre. Do you know what

I'm reminded of the time my wife rang me ten minutes before the show started to tell me that the dishwasher was leaking

And I was like, what do you expect me to do? Does your father have any medical training

My dad was a medic in the army, actually. Oh, now it all makes sense then

So there he is. But he sent my mum in. In the wheelchair

So your mum wheels herself in. Right. Yeah. And anyway, yeah, gave birth completely

and she fell out of her wheelchair. What, with shock or because she was trying to get herself

into a difficult angle? Yeah, she was leaning forward, yeah. And he's 49 now

Yeah, and the annoying thing was they did send a midwife round

because somebody made a phone call and then I still had to go to hospital

even though I was fine and... Well, they need to be better safe than sorry, Sav, though

I know, I know. There it is. So you did it effectively. Who cut the umbilical cord, if you don't mind me asking

I think when the midwife came. Oh, she arrived and then you had to go to the hospital anyway

Yeah, but I was quite a stickler about you don't cut the cord too soon

Oh, well done. So you did it all effectively. You did it all yourself, really

Yes, it was brilliant. Okay. Well, there you go. I mean, all human life is here

What a lovely story. 12.46 is the time. Thank you, Sav. James O'Brien on LBC

I need to clear something up. I got myself into a bit of bother earlier

when I was talking about construction work, and this despite having been a builder, of course

But I don't have a French drain. I do have a soak away

So a French drain is what Victoria described, and I read out to you

that's a sort of vertical pipe full of gravel. A soak away serves the same purpose

but that's why I've got crates full of shingles. like crates full of stuff, a big old crate under the lawn

that works as a kind of overflow. So just to be clear, I don't have a French drain, I have a soak away

But the main point of that story was to invite your tales of cowboy builders

But I don't like to leave errors behind me. I like to, you know, make sure we've got everything right

12.50 is the time. Have you ever delivered a baby? Or indeed, have you ever given birth alone

We've now covered both of those. some extraordinary text still coming in as well

but I want more. 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need

I'm only going to read you the first half of this one, and then you may never forget it

because you so want to know more about this story. It's from Joe

Are you ready for this? I gave birth to a baby in the front seat of my Jeep in 2006 in Colorado

as my husband would not get out of bed and did not believe I was in labor

That's it. I'm not going to read any more of that story. I'm just going to leave that..

It goes on to explain a little bit of context about something terrible that had happened in the area recently

So the media really wanted a good news story and she ended up on all the news channels where she lived

And you just have so many questions, don't you? about mostly your husband

and I suppose whether you're still with him. How can you stay in bed

I learnt to drive so that Mrs O'Brien would be able to get to hospital safely

when she was in labour. He stayed in bed and didn't believe she was in labour

Did the marriage survive, Joe? What time is it? 12.51. We've got a little bit of time

for you to get back in touch and tell us. I mean, I kind of hope so. I wouldn't wish divorce on anybody

but he certainly... I hope we got you a nice bunch of flowers. Apparently French drains are laid horizontally

Listen, let's just pretend that never happened. Let's just excise that from the thing

Who's doing the podcast today? Can we just remove all mention of run-offs and soak-aways of French drains

Just a flipping minefield. Absolute minefield. I shouldn't have mentioned anything, honestly

And me a builder as well. 12.52 is the time. Pete's in Sheffield. Pete, what have you got

James, hi, good afternoon. I'm really glad your research has let me squeeze this one in

Go on. Many, many years ago, I was a young copper down south

and we saw a guy pull into a petrol station, and we knew he didn't have a driving licence

and we knew he was wanted for burglary and other offences. Oh, boy. So we pull in, I hop out the car, and I say to him

got a driving licence yet, mate? Being funny. And he said, no, but I've got a girlfriend in the back seat giving birth

That's an interesting moral dilemma, isn't it? Because, I mean, you need to keep your numbers up

Yeah, well, what we decided to do was stick him in the back of their car

and I would drive that, and my mate would blue light us to the hospital

Wow. Which we did. And on the journey, he says to me, the baby's coming, what do I do

He's in the back with her now. He's in the back with her now of his car

My mate's blue lighting this in the front of us to hospital. Yeah. And I say to him, I'm trying to give him instructions

whilst driving safely. Do you get, as a copper, do you get trained in this then

Well, you get some aspects of, yeah. Okay. And I done it before anyway Oh And then in the back seat you got and out pops the baby So I now got newborn baby girlfriend and fella in the back seat

of the car. Anyway, we get to the hospital, James, and everything's fine

They go in, everybody's alright. We're not going to drag the guy away from his

new baby. So we come to an agreement with him that he

will come into the police station the next morning when we come on duty, hand

himself in, we'll deal with him and bail him or whatever it takes. And at three o'clock the following afternoon

we had to go around his house and arrest him because he decided it would be much better

to wet the baby's head. He'd gone out on the lash, had he? Yeah, he'd gone out on the

lash rather than come in and complete his part of the bargain

So it was a hard lesson for us, to be honest. Well, I think in retrospect

you did the right thing. So you could have picked him up whenever you wanted, really. You knew where

he was, but you needed to find him behind the wheel of the car without a license

really. Well, we didn't need to find behind the wheel of the car. We were looking for him

But did you nick him for that, though? Did you nick him for the driving? Yeah, we nicked him for that and the burglary

Yeah. And the other offences. I mean, you had to, didn't you

But I kind of, I mean, I'd have had some sympathy for it. A good lawyer could have got him off on the driving charge, I reckon

Don't you think? Probably. I mean, what would you do? I'd be the lawyer. I'd say, ladies and gentlemen of the jury

what in all good conscience would you have done in those circumstances

his beloved, his inamorata, the mother of his unborn child is writhing around on the kitchen floor in agony

He has the keys to a car in his possession, ladies and gentlemen of the jury

Who here would caution him against taking her to the medical facilities at the first available..

I'd have got him off in a heartbeat, mate. Yeah, I agree. You know, who would drive a car

without a licence or insurance? Yeah, all right, all right. He's spoiling it now

I forgot about all the insurance. the rest of us. So there it is. Did they name the baby after you

I don't think so. Did they heck? Did they heck as like? Not unless they

called it something beginning with B. Oh dear. Oh boy. Well I've got an interesting

entry into the world. I hope the life went better than its beginnings. It is 12.55. You are listening to

James O'Brien on LBC. Maria is in Thurrock. Maria what would you like to say

Hello. Hello. So me and my friend have been best friends for 35 years

She's a single mum of two, now three. We'd gone out for the day. We knew

that it was due date, so we'd done what every midwife tells you to do

go out, go and walk pubs and whatnot. So throughout the day, we'd pick our children

up and she'd said, Maria, I'm going to let you know when to come round because

I'm going to take myself to hospital as she is a single parent. I've got the message, Maria, you need to come round

Contractions are happening. him. So by that time... So you were going to look after the other two? I was going to look after the

other two. So when I'd got to her home, I'd called the ambulance and around this time, it was when

the ambulances were so busy, it was taking 40 to an hour to get to people. So she's now arched over

she's in pain, she's about to deliver the baby. So the first, the ambulance crew has said to me

right, you need to get her on the bed. So obviously I've never delivered baby

I've never given birth myself. So I've managed to get her on the bed

And that was it? Nice and straightforward? No, not really. Because 10, 15 minutes into it, baby had come out

She wasn't breathing. They were telling me that I needed to grab a shoelace

tie it around the umbilical cord, which I'd done. having to give mouth to mouth to a brand new baby

Yeah. Ambulance crew got there half hour after, which by that time, they were both absolutely fine

You did it. You pulled it off, Maria. I did. Was it a boy or a girl? It was a little girl and she is named after me

Yeah, that's what I wanted. That's what I blummin' wanted. Yes. It got named after you

Finally, we've hit the flipping jackpot, lads. The baby named after the person who delivered the baby

who was not a midwife, a doctor or a medical professional in any way, shape or form

Maria, I love you. Thank you. Thank you. That's incredible. Oh, that was by far the best silly season phoneme, wasn't it

Much better than have you ever fainted. I don't know who came up with that idea. Robert Harris, the author of all sorts of things

Conclave, I suppose, most recently and most famously, but also Fatherland, which is an absolute classic

The Cicero Trilogy. Also, one of those very rare journalists that really did become a best-selling novelist

and be able to turn his back upon journalism. Worked on Panorama with Jeremy Paxman

Fascinating bloke, fascinating interview. Here is a little taste of it. Did you enjoy proximity to power

Because you hadn't really had it before, had you? No, it was fascinating

And although I later had some falling out with Tony Blair, I will always be grateful for him letting me in

and letting me see that because I saw a man on the brink of becoming Prime Minister

with a landslide and got to just sit with him. I was actually standing on the living room rug

watching the television in his constituency home when David Dimbleby announced the results of the exit poll

and said, which will be Labour with a majority of 140. What did he do

I said, how do you feel? And he said, I don't feel anything. And then the phone went and it was Bill Clinton

calling to congratulate. It was an epic night. Because before that, I'd been to his constituency house

and it was quite just a normal house. When I went back that night to be with him when he got the result

which had been agreed I would be allowed that access, it was ringed by men with machine guns

It was a totally different atmosphere. Because, of course, everyone knew that this was the transfer of power

and so to see that to be a novelist very few journalists

get that access but to be a novelist and get that access that's what I was thinking

well that was that was real that was gold dust this is the

short version of my end of show address and here's Sheila Fogarty

James O'Brien on LBC