'We aren't frightened enough about climate change' | James O'Brien - The Whole Show

It's three minutes after ten, and before it actually happens, I promise I will tell you

what the correct relationship is between a colander and a solar eclipse. There's just one slight problem. I have to get confirmation

I have to have someone explain it to me first. But you do not look at the sun through a colander

That's not what it involves. I'm not going mad, am I? Donald Trump, I was listening to that news bulletin there

and the instruction not to look at the sun through sunglasses. Donald Trump just went straight out and stared at the sun through sunglasses last time around, didn't he

I'm not imagining that. It's so hard sometimes to separate fevered imaginings from actual reality

but I'm fairly confident that happened. And I wonder if it ties in slightly with something that we touched on yesterday

I don't know if you were listening, but we got something right. And I hate that sometimes, because if I can't work out what it is that we got right

then it makes it harder for me to come back and try to make lightning strike twice

I have a kind of simultaneous, it's like two trains running at the same time on parallel tracks

We must talk about climate change a lot more than we do, but we can't because we don't want to talk about climate change more than we do

So it's kind of the nature of this very peculiar job that I do

It's not like being a newsreader, of course, because if I'm a newsreader, I can stick it in the news every day

as long as the weather continues to be excessively hot and climate change continues to be the clear cause of it

you can stick it in the news every day. If you're doing political journalism, you can mention that today there's a COBRA meeting

But my job is to get you interested and then encourage you to say interesting things

And we got it right yesterday. So if you're bored in 10 minutes' time

just rewind to yesterday's show on Global Player and listen to the final hour of the show

I don't know what we got right, but it had something to do with fear. And the acknowledgement of fear

And the reason why I draw Donald Trump into that observation is because I mentioned to you that when the COVID lockdown first started

I found myself noticing very odd feelings about masks. Normally, and for most of COVID, I kind of took the view

better safe than sorry, let's listen to the plurality of experts and let's do what they say

And if it subsequently turns out that we've gone a little bit too far down the path of caution

then it's better than not having gone far enough. I think a lot of people forget that one of the reasons

why our lockdowns were so frequent and so long is because Boris Johnson always did it too late

He always did it at the last possible moment which meant that we ended up needing more of them

and when we had them they needed to be longer than they would have been if he'd actually acted sooner

I still pretty much subscribe to that school of thought but I think if it happened again

the argument against closing schools would look a lot stronger than it did last time round

But the masks thing and the relationship between fear and masks was a little bit pathetic on my part

I kind of tried to work out what was going on when I walked around central London and saw men in masks

very few men in masks. And I kind of found myself sort of thinking

oh, what a wuss. What a big girl's blouse. I'm not going to wear a mask

I need to show how tough I am. And I wonder if that's why Donald Trump marched out onto the White House lawn or the White House balcony

and just stared at the sun with his shades on because I'm not scared of the sun

The sun can't hurt me. I'm not joking. I mean it because I'm essentially

I'm not wearing a mask. A fatal virus that has left thousands dead

on its way to this country, that's not going to hurt me. I'm tough. I'm not scared

We're constantly trying to persuade ourselves and therefore others or others and therefore ourselves

that we are not scared. We are not scared. But I am scared

And I'm more scared, I think, today than I have been at any other point in all of our contemplations and pontifications and conversations about climate change

I don't know why. We tried to work it out yesterday. We'll try again to work it out a little further today

Why this has shifted. Because, you know, I've watched wildfires before, admittedly not in the New Forest, but not that far away from where I sit every day, where I wake up every morning

I've watched flash floods, I've watched terrible impacts in other parts of the world

and slightly less terrible impacts in this part of the world. I was really struck by, when I interviewed Ravi Singh from the charity Kalsa Aid

I was really struck by the fact that his charity also doesn't just go to places like Ukraine and Kosovo

and places of famine and disaster, it will also send aid to places in this country

the floods I think in Somerset were one of their targets, one of the beneficiaries of their work

Because when the unexpected happens, when insurance companies call, I don't think he was even wearing shades actually, Donald Trump, when he stared straight at the

so that would really prove my part, I'm not scared, I'm not scared. You're never going to fix anything unless you admit that you're scared or you can't understand something

can you, until you've processed the fear? I don't know. But when acts of God happen, Calcerade turn up and start dispensing support and succour and materials that are needed

And, you know, that's going to be happening here more and more. It just is

There are places that may run out of water soon. There are food shortages on the horizon

Because as Jeremy Clarkson, if you find it, if it's helpful to cite someone like Jeremy Clarkson

who has historically been a little bit sniffy about climate change, He's writing now about how his crops on his famous farm have, in his own words, already failed

Food chains in this country have already been compromised, of course, by Brexit

although a lot of hard work has been done in trying to fix some of the damage that that has done

And we are going to be looking at things we haven't looked at before

We are looking at things we haven't looked at before. And it's the cyclical nature of it that's weirdest, I think

It's the fact that, I don't know what you're like, but you sort of find yourself thinking to yourself

you find yourself thinking, this will soon pass. I think that's a line from the Scottish play, this will soon pass

And you look at the lawns and you look at the grassland

you look at the arid terrain and you think this will soon pass

And then it doesn't, or it does very temporarily. and then it comes back round again

So today is going to be right up there with the very hottest days that we have ever seen

Today is going to be like that. Today is going to be one of the absolute humdingers

and tomorrow is going to be even hotter. So it will not soon..

I think that's where the fear, I feel, comes from now. I know it's delusional to find yourself thinking

oh, don't worry about it. Things will get better. Or, humanity has risen to bigger challenges than this

We can fix this. But I think also you derive comfort because we don't want to be frightened

We don want to be frightened None of us like being frightened If you like being frightened you probably got a diagnosable psychological condition I not saying that with any levity It just not normal is it This too will pass And I think that that is a bogus comfort a false you know like a panacea

Somewhere inside ourselves, subconsciously, we think this too will pass. I mean, at the extreme

end of it, you, as I mentioned to you yesterday, you get to Christmas, it starts snowing, and then

the pub boar will start opining about how, oh, well, I don't know what's happened to global warming

It's freezing outside. But I think that voice is now being quietened

or possibly even silenced. But for the rest of us, the voices that we perhaps listen to in our own heads

but never articulate out loud, this too will pass. It won't, will it

Something about the nature, the state of the lawn, the state of the park

parks plural that I go past every day on the bus or when I'm walking the dog

something about that barren landscape I'm not a big traveller when I go away I'm generally at the beach

so I'm not inland in hotter countries I'm not looking at the 20 year change

in the south of France or thereabouts I'm familiar with forest fires from all the time that I've spent in Greece

but they've always been part of the furniture part of the summer experience in parts of Greece

And they've always been accompanied by newspaper reporting about the arrests of arsonists and claims that property developers

are trying to remove olive groves or get rid of forests. And that's gone now. This too will pass

That idea that, well, it's a hump in a road that we're on together

It's not. It's the road, right? It's the road. but I still can't talk about it every day

and there are two reasons for that the first is the most visceral

that I just explained or shared or reminded you of the first is that we don't like being frightened

I'm not going to put James on he's going to scare me again there's a reason why that film Don't Look Up

is such a perfect allegory for climate change I'm not going to look up

if I don't look up I'll feel better if I don't look up I won't feel as frightened as I will

if I'm looking up you know staring down the barrel of a gun It's a heck of a lot more frightening than looking over there and trying to persuade yourself that no one's pointing a gun at you

And the second thing is, what do we have to say to each other

What do we actually have to say to each other? I don't know

We've got to say something. They're calling a COBRA meeting today at Downing Street

Sadly, COBRA, as I discovered. to my great disappointment some years ago

Simply stands for Cabinet Office Briefing Room A. It's got nothing to do with the Sylvester Stallone film of the same name

or a kind of 1980s children's cartoon or anything like COBRA! We're having a COBRA meeting

Oh, wow, what does COBRA stand for? Cabinet Office Briefing Room A

Oh, you sort of think it stands for something kind of sexy, wouldn't you

A name like COBRA, but anyway. There was a rollercoaster at West Midland Safari Park called the COBRA back in the day

somewhere in China now, I read recently, but I digress. I wonder what the safari park looks like

actually at the moment. I bet that presumably some of the animals there

are going to think they're home, given the state of the grasslands

in the West Midlands and everywhere else. So what can we say? First question

why don't you talk about it more? Because nobody likes being frightened. That's not true, actually, is it

Some people talk about asylum seekers all the time because they are trying to frighten people with asylum seekers

But that feels fixable, even if it isn't. You know, we can sink the boats

We can blow them all up. We can do this. We can do that. You know, let's have a phone in about..

Let's have our 57th phone in about... How can we fix this problem? And you think you can

You can't do that with this. Maybe that's it. Maybe it's that simple

We only like being frightened by things that we truly believe to be temporary

and the opportunist, the political populist, will use them, will exaggerate them and embellish them and use them to frighten people

But the same politicians that do that do the opposite with climate change. They claim it's not real

Well, you would, wouldn't you? Because if you can't offer up a simple solution to it

a bogus simple solution, you can't blame it all on Polish lorry drivers

then you've got nothing. There you go. That's the first breakthrough of the morning

That's why people like Richard Tice profess not to believe that climate change exists

And Farage goes on about net zero being a bad thing. That's why, isn't it

Because they've got no easy answer. You can't blame it. What's the evidence of your own eyes and ears

The country's on fire. How are we going to fix that? Well, we can't. Who are you going to blame it on

Well, I mean, you can't really blame it on foreigners, can you? It's not because it just got hot

He's tried to blame traffic jams on foreigners. and I think somebody once claimed on this program

that the country was in danger of sinking under the weight of all the new arrivals. But serious, even vaguely serious people

I don't think can blame climate change on immigrants. In fact, you can do it the other way around

you'd be able to blame immigration on climate change and that's going to get bigger and bigger and bigger

and there's another reason to look away because it's scary. People who are already comfortable with the idea

of homes in Thetford being attacked because some people think there might be some asylum seekers

possibly moving in at some point to a temporary home, that gives them licence to attack the building

And God knows, as we touched on earlier this week, what you're going to do if you actually get into their bedroom

in the middle of the night, which people in Thetford have been arrested for trying to do

That can only get worse. It's another reason to look away. It's another reason to look away

So, what do you do with your fear? 0345 6060 973. Yesterday's programme, I think

and I left quite a lot of calls on the board, so I don't know if we need to go back a little bit

to the question of why now? Or not even why now, but when did your fear become acute

Because some people were telling us it was 20 years ago. For me, I've got a horrible feeling

a slightly shame-faced feeling that it's this week. My fear has become real

It wasn't there last week. last week I clumsily tried to do a phone-in about the dangers of enjoying the weather

The phone-in worked, it's just the clips that didn't. But that's the cross that I bear

But this week I've got fear. You know, we went to the chippy last night and you go past a park where we don't go past very often

It's just a slightly different route. I was with my mother-in-law and she hadn't seen the parkland round our way and she was shocked

looking at a massive park that's, you know, a sort of very pale shade of yellow

A pale shade of yellow. What do you do with your fear

0345 6060 973 is the number that you need. And obviously, you then have to do the phone-in that doesn't work

because one day it will. One day it will work and that why I will do it again and again and again until it works The first thing I want you to tell me is what you do Well the first thing I want you to tell me when did your fear crystallize When did you actually become frightening Frightened

Okay? And why? When and why did you actually become genuinely frightened

Because I'll tell you something for nothing, we are not frightened enough, collectively, as a population, as a

as a body politic. We are not frightened enough. So when did you

become frightened enough? Question one. Question two, what are you doing with that fear

How do you handle it? Tell me the truth. Do you run away from it? Do you stick your head in the sand? Do you mate like an ostrich

Or are you doing something with it? Tell me psychological. Tell me practical

0345 6060 973. And then the final question, I suppose, is what on earth can come out of a cobra meeting

today? Genuine question. Think about it. You might be more clued up on this stuff than I am. Andy

Burnham. He's had quite a good start. This is his trickiest week yet. It's going to get trickier

Climate change is not something that he's been hit over the head with, probably because, as Steve

points out, we're not calling it immigrant weather. Start calling it immigrant weather, coming over here and ruining our lives, and you might be able to persuade the political class in

this country to do something about it, or at least to talk about it more. Bloody immigrant weather

coming over here, setting fire to our forests. It's terrible, flipping immigrant weather. Why

Can't we go back to good old British weather? That's what we want. Good old British weather

But that's not going to happen. So what could come out of a Cobra meeting? What could genuinely be announced by a Prime Minister tomorrow

that would make you marginally less frightened? Right, three questions for you

0345 6060 973. James O'Brien on LBC. Cobra today isn't going to be about how to combat climate change

I am aware of that, but thank you to Nick and others for reminding me. It's going to be about how you cope with the consequences

It's that funny. Chicken and egg, right? But we're only looking at the egg

Or the chicken, whichever came first. Which did come first, Keith? 0345 6060 973

The chicken or the egg. Don't ring. I need my phone lines. Don't be silly. It's going to be looking at things like food chains

food supply chains and water supply and the things that the government is going to have to step in

to try to do or alleviate or fix or prevent as a consequence of climate change that

how, what do you reckon, 20, 30% of our political class still denies the reality of

still denies the scientific reality of? So I still leave the question on the board

So you can have the theoretical cobra or the actual cobra. What do you want them to do in your world

If you're a farmer, what can the government do to help? If you're worried about food reaching supermarkets

supermarkets, if you're worried about what's going to be pulled out of the ground on your farm today

what can the government do to help? But also, if they were going to announce meaningful policies on the big picture of climate change

what would those policies be? It is 23 minutes after 10. Bernard is in Belfast in Northern Ireland

Bernard, what would you like to say? Hi, James. Hello, mate. Is that it

Surely you've got more. Yes, I did. You were talking about fear and then you were talking about climate change

What would you like me to have a go at? Well, I mean, whatever you've rung in to say, Bernard, is the thing. OK

Well, I think our fear over climate change arises from the fact we're not seeing any sort of action that we believe should occur

There's this constant argument in the media from be it the left or the right or the establishment

or climate change organisations saying, we should do this or we should do that, but nothing happens

Do what, though? Act. Yeah, but, I mean, I think you might be unwittingly

casting yourself as part of the problem rather than part of the solution. Do what

And don't just say something. You have to tell me what you would do. What could Andy Burnham, for example, announce today

that would make you feel less frightened? Because I don't know that there's anything, mate

that he could actually do. Well, I would ask him to listen

to the best scientific interests we have. You're proving my point. Your point being

You don't know. Well, of course I don't know. I'm a lay person. Yeah, well, so who does know

Yeah, but what do they say? Well, this is the thing, you see, traditionally we have..

This is why it's frightening. This is why it's frightening, because nobody knows what we could do

You can make massive sweeping statements about the necessity of weaning ourselves off fossil fuel

but Andy Burnham can't do that tomorrow. There's nothing any politician can do, today or tomorrow

that will make you or me, or anyone listening to this programme, feel less frightened of the future

So they won't do anything? It's like psychology. No, I believe there are actions that can be taken

and it would be to listen purely to the scientific interest and not to media interests that are led by political..

I'm sure you recall there was an interview, it would have been maybe 15, 20 years ago

where there was a scientist interviewed on one side, on the other side there was a previous Conservative Chancellor

It was Nigel Lawson, and I've written about this. I didn't recall it

I did an entire skit in which I imagined Galileo explaining heliocentrism

while Nigello Lawsini sat on the other side of the Newsnight studio

insisting that, in fact, I think you'll find that the sun revolves around the Earth. So it's worth reading that, Bernard

I think you'll enjoy it. But that's changed now. That doesn't happen anymore. Has it really

Yes, it really has. I mean, the BBC have done a mayor call par on it. I mean, there is no prospect whatsoever of a climate change denier being booked

to argue with a genuine scientist anymore. You might get Richard Tyson Bloomberg doing it

but everybody laughs at him now. I know everybody laughs at him all the time

but they laugh at him even more loudly than usual when he's talking about climate change

So the media conversation, I don't think that works anymore. I don't think that works anymore

Well, I still feel if you read through, peruse the Daily Mail or the Telegraph

or all those sort of publications, they're still screaming against... you know they're screaming against net zero the interest of they're screaming against net zero and

and that is definitely part of the problem but they're no longer even the telegraph which i mean

has an extraordinarily shameful history on this very specific issue is now shifting gear changing

direction um telling the truth the problem is and and i'd say this affectionately because i'm no

different is that we we can't put anything on the back listen to the experts more well what are the

The expert's saying, I don't know. That's not really super helpful, is it

Just briefly, Bernard, when did your fear crystallise about this? Um, I can't recall

It's been there. But it's there and it's real. I've been into you, James, I would say, like in my 20s, I imagine. Really

So I was blithe about it then. I think maybe misplaced faith in human ingenuity

We will come up with a solution to this. We come up with a solution to everything else. Carol's in Morden

Carol, what would you like to say? Hello I am a volunteer gardener who works at Morden Hall at the National Trust Park there I was exchanging messages with other volunteer gardeners and one of them told me about something that as far as I understand happened in maybe March or April where Chris Peckham and lots of very clever people did an emergency briefing to the cabinet and the MPs

They've made a film and they've shown it to some politicians and the National Emergency

Briefing, which is an unfiltered evidence-led expert assessment of the climate and nature

crisis, and they want a prime time televised. Right, stick it on the list, we should start

agitating for this. It needs to be shown on prime time television by national

broadcasters so that the public get a better wrinkling of the emergency. Yeah, and I

don't know why they're not showing it. So what I did was, I went down

the National Trust and I asked to speak to the person who organises

films and things at the Exhibition Centre down at the National Trust. And I found

that every person who works for the National Trust, has had a copy

of it sent to them. That's correct. But of the ones I spoke to

nobody had watched it. Is that just don't look up again? Yeah, I think it is

I think it is. And the person who normally organises these things is on holiday

So I've sent a message to the manager at Gordon Hall. Yes, we have

I haven't even seen it yet, but I sent a message to the manager to ask her

to arrange for it to be screened. every day in the exhibition centre

when they've got there. And then everyone who comes to the park can be encouraged to look at it

What a brilliant idea. The more people who look at it, the more positive impact it will have

And people will get set up. So that's your fear there, coming to the surface

And how long has that fear been? You don't have to stay on the line, Carol, if you don't want to

But if you do want to, I wonder if you could tell me how long that fear has felt

as urgent and as real as it just does in this moment? This summer

Just this summer? Well, this summer's been that much worse. And there are still people walking around saying

God, nice it is to have such a good summer. Yeah. I want to scream

And it is just, I mean, being a gardener, you're a little bit closer to the impact on vegetation and plant life

than the rest of us. I'm very lucky. I've still got a hosepipe

I haven't got a band. I look out at my garden. and my garden is still relatively green

And I have birds and animals and God knows what else coming in

I feed a fox. I'm concerned about the world, but so many people aren't

And so many people aren't. And that is why you've just done a great service, Carol

because that film, the National Emergency Briefing, is something that will, I think, put more people in the position

that you find yourself in, and without that fear that you articulate very, very powerfully, Carol

I really do mean that then you do not have the appetite for change, you do not have the

urgency, you need the fear to feed the urgency and the urgency to feed

the change you can find screenings of this film by the way

if you go to the website nebriefing.org, just google national emergency briefing, you can

find out how you could yourself host a screening which is of course what Carol is intending

to encourage the National Trust to do and you can just enter your postcode

to find out where the next screening is near you. But again, we are a lot

more likely... Can I just check in on Carol? She's still there. Are you alright

Carol? I'm still here, yeah. Are you okay? I've managed to calm down. Sorry, I do

cry a lot. That's alright. So do I, actually. But you're going to be okay. You're going to have a nice

cup of tea. Yeah, I'm fine. Thank you. Thank you for being

concerned. Well, thank you for reminding us so powerfully why we all

should be. The problem is, of course, that the people most likely to watch this film are

possibly the people who least need to. And that, in a way, is a conundrum at the very heart

of climate crisis conversation, isn't it? Here's Dominic Ellis with your headlines

James O'Brien on LBC. It's 10.34, and you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC

We're talking about fear. I'm not sure anyone will articulate it quite as purely

as Carol did just a moment ago. It is this summer that has brought her to this grim realisation

of just how desperate things are, and constructive ideas. There is a magnificent initiative

called the National Emergency Briefing, which is a UK initiative focused on delivering an unfiltered

evidence-led expert assessment of the climate and nature crisis. And they've made a film that you can watch

Just Google Emergency Briefing, actually, and you'll find out everything you need to know about that

But again, the people who perhaps would benefit most from watching it are the people least likely to

and yet everyone eventually will feel fear what you do with that fear of course is is is not

easily predictable most of us run away from fear or hide from fear or deny fear most of us make like

an ostrich when we are frightened or or try this is my sort of psychological makeup trying to

persuade ourselves that we're not with degrees of success you know there's nothing to be frightened

of it's like when you're rationalizing a child or trying to rationalize with a child who's frightened

of the dark or a monster under the bed. There's nothing there. You can maybe make some progress

But when it is there, and it is real, and it is huge, what do you do with your fear

0345 6060973. Matt doesn't like this question. Matt's been in touch to say

I love you, James, but your main question today is absurd. Hopefully the next hour is better

So that allows me, I think, to read out this from Pamela, who says, What a beautiful human being you are, James

I'd marry you tomorrow, and I'm gay. So there you go. That's what I'm putting up with here

These are the crosses that I bear, the full gamut of human reactions. So, I mean, there are two other questions, Matt, to be fair

It's not just what are you going to do with your fear, but it's what can a government do

And that can be either tomorrow or long term. A cobra meeting at Downing Street to discuss the extreme weather

What can they actually come out and do? Here's a question. What do you want them to do

And it can be really specific to your world. Ideally, if you're a farmer and you want them to come out

and do something quite big and significant and substantive, you're going to be marginally more interesting

than if you're a milkman and you want them to provide air conditioning on your float

But you see what I mean. What can the government do? 03456060973 is the number you need

It's 1037. Phil's in witness. Phil, what would you like to say? Good morning

Hello, Phil. Good morning. My failure started when, I'd say about 20 years ago, when my children were born

Oh, yeah. Because I work in the water industry, both for water authorities and the Environment Agency and their flood defences

The problem is we're not managing water properly anymore, and things are not built to take the current climate, which is more water in a shorter period of time

so the flood defenses that were currently built cannot take them anymore and the water system

itself is not got the capacity to be able to deal with it so we're going to get floods and then when

we get weather like this we'll be in drought because we've not stalled that water it's been

lost so that's counterintuitive isn't it almost it is but that's the trouble people don't see it

that way i know that's what i mean by counterintuitive how can we have Floods and have heat waves, that doesn't make any sense

Surely the floods are welcome because they'll make up for all the things that happened when we didn't have any rain

Do you see what I mean? You know... I do. I get exactly what you mean

And progressively over the last 20 years, the more and more I've been involved, the worse it's got

And the point I want to try and make is, we talk about, you know, coastal erosion and leaving communities to move away

because they're going to fall into the sea. that's going to start happening inland soon

because the floods are going to be that flashy they will flood, floods sorry, upstream on a river

flashy floods, floddy flashes and areas of inland around the river which used to be the best places to be

will no longer be them places anymore and people need to start thinking about that

because they'll have to leave them areas and you will start moving up the hill

and the property prices will reflect it Or moving up the country, moving further north as well

And would everybody in your line of work concur about this, or do you have to deal with naysayers as well

I think a lot of the people who are thinking about the long term concur

And yes, there are plans going on, but what it's going to take, James, is investment

And people will have to pay more for that investment, meaning me and you as a taxpayer

and I don't think that message is well received. Well, it never is, is it

Because it's that thing that so many of our conversations come back to, although rarely as urgently as this one

where we need to spend some money today to save an absolute fortune

or our lives, or at least the quality of our lives, tomorrow

You spend the money today and you get political opposition to it because you somehow can't sell people tomorrow, can you

You can only really sell them today. I'll make you better off today. I can't really sell the idea that if you give me your money today

then a month from now or 10 years from now, then you'll thank me for it

We're not very good at this. And the parliamentary system doesn't help either. No, it really doesn't. It's short-term, five years

and this is going to be the next 10, 20, 30, and we need intermittent stages

A plan now meets them goals in 10 years, then 20 years and 30, but you can't do that

If a new government comes in and goes, I'm not interested in that. Sometimes it's still campaigning on turning things backwards

I mean, there's 50 scientists today have written to, I mean, all of us really

about net zero and saying, you know, about these new oil fields that Andy Burnham is reportedly considering

and just saying we will be burning more fossil fuel. And until everybody agrees that that is the country, the planet's top priority

then we're going to carry on the downward trajectory that we're on. In terms of water, I'd say stupid things

and you mark them out of ten, all right? Okay. So we need to build loads more reservoirs

Ten. Oh, well, I think I'll quit while I'm ahead if that's all right with you, Phil

Have a great day. So there's something, and of course it's very expensive. And you can't really sell it to people

unless their taps have run dry, something that's going to improve their life. But it is climate change

It's not just, I mean, extreme weather doesn't just mean extreme heat

It can be, as Phil said, three months worth of rainwater coming down in two days we can't cope with that we can't cope

with that our sewers are victorian for a start and and that's what cobra needs i mean what would

andy burnham do what would you do if you were andy burnham i'd put someone like sadiq khan on a

national stage because the way that he forced through ulez against ulez well how do i always

pronounce it wrong anyway ulez against opposition that was hideous the single most hideous political

campaigning that I've ever seen in my life was the hatred, the vitriol

not to mention the death threats directed at Sadiq Khan over a traffic calming

measure being done for profoundly important environmental reasons. Someone like that maybe could steer very

difficult legislation through Parliament but as Phil reminds us, you'd need some sort of guarantee that the next lot

to get in wouldn't try to undo it or make political capital out of it

What's the last thing? Is it the Ukrainian refugee crisis? The last thing on which every

corner, pretty much every corner of the political spectrum moved as one. That's a question you can text

me an answer to, actually. What's the last thing that we saw genuine, almost like wartime style

political unity on? 034, well, text 84850 or drop me a WhatsApp on the number

that you used to phone me. Abby's in Felix though. Abby, what would you like to say

Gosh, I don't know so many questions you've thrown up the day, James

Well, pick and choose, you don't have to answer all of them The first time I became really genuinely

fearful, I think, is when I had my daughter Olivia, and I

worried for the future that we were creating for her and for

you know, subsequent grandchildren Why? Why did you worry? Because I've had children

and it didn't hit me like that Because she loves nature and I love how much she loves it

We go out and we go into the forest and things and she's forever digging for worms and things like that

You know, she just loves nature. And I wonder how much of it's going to be left for her

And like Carol, that saddens me deeply. But I think one of the beautiful tragedies

of the human condition is that we don't have a genuine foresight

We can't genuinely predict exactly what's going to happen. So we're only ever reliant upon our defence mechanisms, which, you know, I think of minimising and rationalising, like you were saying

And that leads us to go to either not look up or to panic and, you know, drill for oil, you know

And actually what we need to do is look within ourselves and go, OK, what are the small changes we can make

Do you think so? One of the things we're doing, and we're still in this in Olivia

is we're trying to reduce the cost of living by growing as much as we can at our allotment

Potatoes, tomatoes, onions, everything we can. We're feeling the impact of the hosepipe ban

I was about to say, not to sound pathetic, but my raised bed is a murder scene at the moment

My raised bed is a crime scene at the moment. Obviously, you're right

and does that help? Because it may not be saving the planet, but does it actually help assuage your emotions

Does it help you feel better about things just to be doing something? It's good for your purse, it's good for your bank balance

but does it help your emotions at all as well? What I think it does for me

is it helps me to believe that I'm raising a human being

who's going to be responsible for the planet when they're older, a human being who is more concerned

Yeah, because some people feel the opposite. So some people feel the opposite. I'd rather be like you and I'd rather feel what you feel

Hope is always preferable to despair, but it's a lot harder to deal with because a lot of people of course are choosing even not to have children now because

one of the reasons why they not having children is because of concern about climate change and the future of the planet and Thank You Abby I just sort of I don think Idiot Corner would be appropriate today but but but anger a bit of anger coming into the studio This is disgusting this is scaremongering this is outrageous

it'll rain next week, and I mean, you in many ways are the people that are most important to be reached

It's no good just preaching to the choir, is it? But the anger you feel, there's a bit of projection there

It's like you know that it's true, but there's no earthly way you're ready to admit it yet

because, because, because. I don't know how much you've staked personally on this position

People find it incredibly difficult to climb down from strongly held positions

I do. I mean, we all do. Everybody does. I find it a little bit easier than some people

But generally speaking, it is another beautiful tragedy of the human condition

as Abby put it. Once we've put 100 quid on black, we're never ever going to accept

that we made a terrible mistake, even when red comes up 50 times running. And that, I don't know, where does the anger come from

Where does the anger come from? It is 10.46, you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

And apart from loads of reservoirs, have we got anything else to put on a list of things that might give us a little bit of sucker, a little bit of hope

It's 10.47. James O'Brien on LBC. It is 10.211 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

So, a key government advisor, Baroness Brown, who chairs the Independent Advisory Climate Change Committee's adaptation work

has said this morning that this is as good as it gets for the heat. This is, you know, this is the coolest summer that you'll ever see

Hello? I don't like scary, you know, it's a... And it may not be. I don't know

I don't have the scientific grasp to say whether we might get an anomaly

So next summer will be slightly hotter than this summer, and the year after that will be slightly hotter

And there may be six years down the line, there'll be one that dips slightly below the previous year

But generally speaking, this is as good as it gets. And, you know, think about the challenges this sets for a government

Think about what a hot country looks like. You know, think about the clock that hot countries live by

The snoozes and siestas that they have in the afternoon, the opening hours for their schools and their shops and their businesses

the infrastructure for their workplaces and their homes, you know, everything from air conditioning

units right through to communal areas. Do you remember? Oh, here's a thing

Do you remember when, was it a consequence of austerity? I think it was, when we were opening warm banks in this country

Our brains are crazy places, aren't they? When's the last time you thought about warm banks

Exactly. I got on my high horse about those warm banks. There's something about the idea of vulnerable elderly people

shuffling to a library or a community centre because they'd got the heating on

and they couldn't afford during the big, big, big energy price spike

They couldn't afford to turn the heating on at home. We did phoning after phoning after phoning about it

It was horrible, actually. It was heartbreaking, some of the testimony and some of the stories that we heard

So we had warm banks. You know where I'm going with this, don't you

Is that we're going to have, in fact, the Prime Minister, the advisor, the key government advisor, Baroness Brown, has suggested

she hasn't used this phrase, but I'll use it, she's suggested that we're going to need cool banks soon

We're going to have to have air-conditioned libraries stocked with toys for mothers and children to escape their overheating flats

We're going to have cool banks. and remember I think the point that

the earlier caller made with the background in the water industry is that you can have both at the same time

extreme weather does not move in only one direction so we could have periods of intense cold

or periods of outrageous rain flood causing rain and periods of extreme heat

we could have warm banks in winter and cool banks in summer

and they're all going to cost money They're all going to be essentially on local or national government

In a stark warning to politicians and others lobbying to water down commitments to get the UK to net zero by 2050

or claiming that the answer to the climate crisis is simply to adapt to rising temperatures

she said we need to remember that this is as good as it gets

It gets worse from here. Until we get to net zero, things go on getting worse

and of course this argument I've fallen for a little bit previously about well let's just get

used to this now but that doesn't work because this isn't the new normal this is this is a point

on a graph that is moving ever upwards crazy why doesn't it land like other stuff does why is it

easier to frighten you with stories of immigrants who haven't done anything wrong than it is to

frightening you with planetary change on a scale that could threaten our species

I don't know. Anyway, Phil's in Shaftesbury. Phil, what have you got? Well, it's Paul in Shaftesbury

Sorry, Paul in Shaftesbury. That's outrageous. Shall I give you the address for Ofcom

Would you like the address for it? You can't be misrepresenting people like this live on air. Go on, Paul

What would you like to say? You can call me anything you like. You can call me Al. Carry on

We had a conversation a couple of years ago about being afraid of climate change

and it's got a lot worse since then. The problem is that I gained some knowledge because I did an open university degree in environmental studies

I finished it in 2004. It took me 70 years because I was working like a dog

So, OK, at that point, I realised, having seen the graphs and the way the heat was going to continue in asymptotic fashion with time

What word is that? Asymptotic. Go on. It's an asymptotic curve, which means basically it never reaches the final point

It goes up and up and up and up and up in an ever-increasing fashion

Oh, I like that. So that's today's word of the day, isn't it? Has it got an I or a Y in it

Y. So sin as in... It's ideal for Scrabble. Yeah, it's trippy, isn't it

Are you syntonic? Asymptotic. Oh, crap, we're going to be here all day

I'm sorry. Hang on, stay there, Paul. Talk among yourselves. Can you spell it out for me properly

A? A? Oh, God, no, I can't spell. That's true. Asymptotic. Asymptotic

It's got a P in it as well. Yes. Asymptotic. T-O-T-I-C. A value or curve approaches a line or target number

closer and closer as it goes on towards infinity. but it never truly touches or reaches it

That's it. Oh, Asim... Oh, Asim... You should have it. Oh, I couldn't do that joke there

because I couldn't say the word right. I was going to go, oh, Asimptotic, why didn't you say so

But I blew it. I blew it, Phil. Sorry, Paul, carry on. I think you needed fossil fuel there

So where were we? You're looking at this curve. Yes. The fear has grown

because, mainly because, if you look at the, for instance, COP28, there were 2,500 fossil fuel lobbyists

that attended COP28 Two of our leading politicians are bought and paid for by fossil fuel lobbies There are conferences in London going on this summer

where people are telling you, oh, there's not much difference now, it's gone up 1.3

and it made no difference to people's lives whatsoever, so don't worry about it

And at the same time, you've got the American oil production which produces, it costs them $70 a barrel to produce the oil in America

In Saudi Arabia, it's $3 a barrel. $70, and they also produce 26.4, I think the number is

million tons of methane per year. Now, methane over a 10-year period is 80 times more powerful than carbon dioxide

They're producing it as a by-product, and they say, oh, well, don't worry about that because we're making all this money

And to try and reason or argue against it, against this huge wall of wealth and power

is unbelievable. And, of course, Kimmy Haddinaugh is saying to her people that

oh, anybody who dares to suggest net zero, we won't allow you to be in the party

So now she's narrowing the gates quite considerably. That's a really good point, actually

I don't know why I feel the need to remind everybody that she is comfortable with a former Nazi being in her party

and running for councillor, but not with somebody who may have served at cabinet level

under previous Tory prime ministers and subscribes to the idea that net zero is

as Baroness Brown has pointed out this morning, the only way you can actually get to the new normal

It's only when we're not adding any more emissions to the atmosphere

that you can start legislating for the new status quo, as it were

How do you... What is it you do? How do you maintain equilibrium

All you can do is talk to people, live your life as best you can

So I've got rooftop solar, I'm a vegetarian. I mean, that's a factor of 10 straight away

I mean, in terms of energy consumption, you know, 40% of the food production on this planet, crops

go to feed animals and eat. That we then eat, yes. We then eat, yeah

It's quite horrendous. horrendous. And does that help? Does the knowledge that you're doing your bit, albeit on a very small

level, does that help you process the really big scary stuff? It has to, because I know, as my wife

continually tells me, you can't change the world. You can't change the world. For instance, I've got

an electric car. I've been using my electric car to ferry people who go to medical appointments and

so forth. Well, that means that I'm taking my vehicle rather than

somebody who's burning petrol. So it's a little tiny bit. Lots of little tiny bits

Well, we're a weird old species, aren't we? And it doesn't have to

fit all the laws of logic to be of comfort to you, but it just needs to fit yours

It needs to fit you. You're an inspiring man, Paul. I apologise for calling you Phil. It is

10.59 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Don't know, again

got to the end of a conversation about climate change with quite a few people still waiting to contribute

So I'll take that to the bank with your permission and hopefully use it as a way of mustering up a little bit more confidence

to return to this subject more than I otherwise would do. And, of course, the other thing is that what do we do in October and November

Because we can't. We can't really feel the same things that we're feeling now as we would then

Up next, asylum seekers in middle-class areas. James O'Brien on LBC. It's three minutes after 11

You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. The story, as is often the case

isn't quite what the headlines suggest. So, wealthy areas must share the asylum burden, PM insists

may reach your ears, as Andy Burnham's saying, we need to open more asylum accommodation in middle-class areas

And he's kind of saying that, but it's not a policy announcement. What has happened is that a little village in Oxfordshire

has responded to plans to accommodate 1,250 people on their outskirts, presumably in a former military installation

Bicester is probably the nearest place that you've heard of, unless you're familiar with that part of Oxfordshire

And Piddington holds a special place in your heart. And so they've responded to this by having a sort of referendum on leaving the United Kingdom in protest against the potential use of a former military site in Bicester

And when you hear the parish council chairman, who was talking to LBC actually when he said this, he's not actually demonising or othering anybody

He's simply, as I would say, counting. To have 1,250 people brought into an environment where there's 350 people

would be like adding 32 million people into London, as an example, overnight

So Andy Burnham responded to questions about this by doing what he's doing at the moment

and it's succeeding for now, but it's not an indefinite tactic unless the words are followed by actions

He says, I'm prepared always to listen to people. It's obviously going to be challenging

but I'm prepared always to listen to people. And then he simply added, I do have to say we cannot have a situation where it's only the poorest communities that receive all of the dispersal of refugees and asylum seekers

I do believe all parts of the country need to play their part

At which point Congo Chris Philp starts jumping up and down and insisting that no we don't

We just need to get rid of all of them. Maybe I'm misrepresenting him. Let's have a look at what he actually said

Andy Burnham just doesn't get it. We shouldn't be housing illegal immigrants anywhere

Wealthy or not, illegal immigrants should all be deported within a week of arrival. And we're back to the definition of an illegal immigrant

So a genuine asylum seeker, the most deserving refugee on the planet

the person that even, I don't know, Enoch Powell would agree deserves to be provided with shelter, support

and a new life in this country would be an illegal immigrant. Because you can't apply for asylum until you're on British soil

and you can't get to British soil via any safe or legal routes if you hail from the massive, massive majority of countries in crisis

or countries where you're likely to be persecuted for your sexuality or your political belief or whatever it may be

And listen, I absolutely know that there are people who seek asylum

who are not acting in good faith. You have to be able to have conversations about this kind of thing

without constantly marking your own homework or being accused of ignoring things

Of course, as in any area of life, whether you're talking about FTSE 100 chief executives

or welfare claimants, there'll be some wrong-uns. They just will. That's the way it goes

Quite who deserves to get their house attacked in the middle of the night by a rampaging mob

for the sin of perhaps being foreign? Well, that's for the people of Thetford to decide

And not just Thetford, of course. We've seen it in Belfast. We seen it I think in Southampton but we certainly seen a hell of a lot more of it than we have in previous years Do you know what one of the problems is on this It actually quite hard to know the facts For example I obviously get quite a lot of jit from people who think

that I live in Chiswick and therefore have no idea. Chiswick is a sort of nice leafy

suburb of West London where I've lived for most of the last 20 years. I don't live there

now for what it's worth. But where you live in Tizzit, you don't know anything about it

And then you sort of try to find out more about what's going on, because you think, well, hang on, that building over there

surely those are asylum seekers. And so all you can do is look stuff up, because they can't be publishing

the addresses, because if they did, Stephen Yaxley-Lennon would be sticking them on Twitter, and Elon Musk would be encouraging people, or

allowing other people to encourage others to go around and set fire to

them. And of course, if you did go on Twitter to encourage other people to go round and set fire

to an accommodation for asylum seekers, you could be invited onto stage at the Reform UK annual conference

and greeted as some sort of conquering heroine. I'm not even joking

Isn't that nuts that I say all of that and it sounds like a routine? And it's just not

It's a description of British politics in 2026. You go on Twitter, encourage people

be amplified by Elon Musk, possibly even get his approval, and call for people who've done absolutely nothing wrong

to be set on fire. and then Nigel Farage will greet you like a conquering heroine

on stage at his own party conference. So you look for what you've got

and you learn. I've obviously done this before and AI is not completely reliable

Chiswick has been used by the Home Office and private providers for temporary contingency accommodation

specifically utilising local hotels to house vulnerable asylums-seeking families and individuals. I know that's true

because I have some friends who are part of the community support networks

and regional advocacy groups that work in this field. And there was a temptation at one point

to tell you exactly how far from my front door a hotel housing asylum seekers was

But just in the nick of time, this is going back two or three years, no longer, because I was in Chiswick at the time

this is going back about five years, I caught myself because I would be painting a target

on the door of that hotel this was before we'd actually seen pogroms

on the streets of Britain as we have in the last couple of years

but still you can't tell anybody responding to this Andy Burnham story angrily

you can't say, oh look, there's already hotels in middle class areas, it doesn't get much

more middle class than flipping Chiswick. Hotels in middle class areas where

people are being housed. And listen, the hotels are more likely to contain families, pregnant women

unaccompanied minors, the kind of people that Honest Bob Jenrick doesn't think should be able to look

at cartoons of Disney characters, the unaccompanied minors who've come here. And then there are lots of

others as well, right across West London. You can tell how much integration

accommodation there is by looking at what charities are doing. You can't really track what the Home Office is doing

but Refugees Welcome Hounslow was started by residents of Chiswick helping refugee and asylum-seeking families

integrate into the wider borough, not just Chiswick, but the whole of Hounslow

You've got West London Welcome, you've got refugees at home, and then you've got on the local websites

an asylum-seeker hostel planned for a certain area and of course there'll be objectors in their droves on proposals like that

because some people think that the numbers will be too much. You can't really argue that in a very populous part of West London

in the same way that you can in a village like Piddington, but you will also have people who have been very successfully persuaded

that all of these human beings are scumbags. And it's HMOs that are the next target

So an HMO very simply is a house of multiple occupation. Almost all of us have lived in some form of HMO at some point

Probably when you were a student or when you were a young worker. Just when you first left home

You didn't move into a flat on your own. You may not have known everybody that you were sharing a house with

I don't know what the exactly technical point is. Whether or not you need to have your own cooking facilities or locks on your door

But it is now being demonized. It is now being completely, obviously, demonized

And Andy Burnham has said that wealthier areas need to share the asylum burden in ways that I suspect they already are

They're the ways that I suspect they already are. Twelve minutes after 11 is the time

I don't know where... I mean, this is mad, right, this conversation

Have you noticed yet how mad it is? Because you can't have a conversation about the accommodation of asylum seekers in very specific areas

without borderline giving addresses to rioters, giving addresses to people who are literally perpetrating pogroms on our streets

There were three nights in Norfolk last week that can be fairly, dictionary definition, described as pogroms

we talked about that, we wondered what you would have to do

to have a violent mob baying for your blood outside your home

and trying to get in. It was insisted, it was apparently important

that we needed to stop hotels being used, former hotels, repurposed hotels being used

because Nigel Farage and others had successfully created a mythology around that

So it was as if asylum seekers were spending their time in the kind of exactly the same circumstances that you would enjoy when you went on holiday

And of course, some hotels, particularly on the edges of towns, people could remember going there for a carvery on a Sunday or remember going there for a wedding reception

And no one bothered to explain to them it's a very different place now. It's not going to have room service

You're not going to be able to, not on what the money the Home Office pays

you're not going to be able to enjoy the same experience that a tourist or a holiday maker might have enjoyed

before the hotel was repurposed. But nobody told you that. Nobody told you that

And then you've got this, I think, I don't really like the phrase legitimate concerns

because it has been hijacked by people with very illegitimate concerns. But you can't really argue with numbers

I say that to you often. So in order to assuage the misgivings about people who are being put up in hotels

this government and the last government have sought alternative accommodations, which means former military sites

And former military sites cause this issue in Oxfordshire and also explain some of the background to the events in Thetford

because it's not just the houses of multiple... occupation that came under attack, but it's also the background of a former RAF site called Barham

which is going to be used to house large numbers of asylum seekers. And because they are less likely

to be in families or be vulnerable or be unaccompanied children, there will be a preponderance

in fact, I think probably an entirety of men who you can, depending on your politics or your

proclivities, you can either describe as working age, which is relevant to our

economic situation, or fighting age, which is not, but is obviously an incredibly

emotive way of describing people that are being moved into a massive facility

a mile and a half up the road. It is quarter past eleven, and

I want to know, I mean, I think you've got two choices here

you can either be Congo Chris Philp and pretend that you weren't

a minister in the last government and pretend that there is a sort of mythical answer to this

problem, which you can do in opposition well I'd fix it I'd just get rid of the problem

you can do that in opposition, you can't do that in power, what I think is hideous about

people like Honest Bob Jenrick and Congo Chris Philp is that they know this, and they know it

because we've watched them do the job. That's so disingenuous, isn't it

We've watched them do the job. They know. And yes, I mean, it must be very frustrating

to know that you can't do all the things that the populists and the rabble-rousers are saying

But when you're suddenly in opposition to announce that that's what the other lot should now be doing

the things that you personally know to be impossible, you personally know to be impossible

and that creates this binary choice between either pretending that you can get rid of the issue

or attempting to find solutions that involve the accommodations of, accommodations for human beings

And I'm sort of tempted to say, can we have a conversation here

that wouldn't involve painting targets on people's houses or people's backs? Because some of the asylum accommodations

we know where they are. Epping is, I mean, is Epping a nice part of town

I've always thought Epping was alright, wasn't it? And that, of course, was the big focus of process last summer

I'm in Brentford now, further west than Chiswick, less leafy, although it is

undergoing a process of gentrification. We've definitely got asylum seekers housed in Brentford

Gary Lineker opened his home to refugees, which, of course, didn't do a single thing

to silence all the people who shout at the top of their voices, why don't you open your home to a refugee

He did. On more than one occasion, I'm sure he doesn't mind me telling you

And that all speaks to an acknowledgement of a genuine issue. So politics is split now between

here is an issue, I'm not going to say a problem, I'm going to say here is an issue. are there solutions that people can live with and the alternative position is here is an issue

let's pretend it's really easy to deal with so i i do want to ask you this question

if you've had anything to do with the uh i'm crikey i'm tying myself i'm not tying myself

in knots, I'm just really frightened of taking calls from people who might accidentally identify

an area that someone like Stephen Yaxley-Lennon could then, or Lucy Connolly, could then

encourage people to go and set fire to. Shall I just say, what's going

on in your community? Well, number one, are we sure that so-called wealthier areas

are not already housing asylum seekers? I think they're right. As I put

it to you that they already are all right oh three four five six oh six oh nine seven three is the

number that you need but um but the second bit of the conversation becomes about your involvement

in this world so you so you work for a charity you work for um a company you know where people

are being put and you can tell me that it's quite different from um the pictures that are being

painted by many politicians and in our media. So, do we need to..

And also, let's do a classic phone-in as well. Do we need to move more asylum seekers into wealthier areas

Would that help? Because I'll tell you something for nothing. Give it five minutes, and Farage will be encouraging people who don't live in very nice areas

to be up in arms about the fact that the asylum seekers have been put in leafier suburbs than they live in

So, is there something going on here that is interesting? Is the suggestion that wealthy areas should house more asylum seekers a reflection of reality and a reflection of something you consider to be desirable

And yeah, I am going to ask you, are asylum seekers housed near you

Right? And if so, what's it like? I think that's an important question to ask

I reserve the right to change my mind, but I think that's an important question to ask

I know where they were. I don't know if they still are or not when I lived in Chiswick

And it had no negative impact whatsoever upon the local surroundings. But if there'd been 2,000 people all availing themselves of the same facilities

I'd probably feel a little differently. But is it working where you are

0345 6060 973. Because I got a horrible feeling. I got a horrible feeling that the determination to shift people out of hotels

is actually going to cause more problems than it solves. You can integrate the population of a hotel

in a way that I don't think you can integrate the population of an airfield. Not least because airfields are going to be

away from the most built-up areas. 0345 60973 is the number you need

So, Dave, I'll read this out, Dave, because I'm sure you're a good bloke and your mum loves you

Just watch you U-turn on migrants if they start staying in leafy Chiswick near your daughters

mate, just use Rewind, I don't live in Chiswick anymore when I did, there were asylum seekers housed there

and I've moved to an area where there are more of them than there were where I lived before but you're not talking about real people

you're talking about either rare examples of bad behaviour that you use to malign an entire demographic

or you're just making stuff up but I still love you mate seriously, hang in there

it's 11.21 James O'Brien on LBC 11.23 is the time what is if you like

the reality of where you are and the other thing I found

when I was looking into this last time or a few times ago

was a horrible report from Hounslow borough I should tell you that that's where I've lived now for the best part

of 20 years into what the reality of life was for these people being housed in the borough of Hounslow And you sort of find yourself wondering what the reality is So that what I asking you

03456060973. What is your personal experience of housing asylum seekers? And should the people who are terrorised and scared and angry about it

be as scared or as angry as they currently are? because loads and loads of people are encouraging them to be violently angry

I just want to know whether or not that is your experience

Sarah is in Sevenoaks. Sarah, what would you like to say? Hello, James. Great to talk to you again

Yeah, so obviously Sevenoaks is an affluent area. You say obviously. I mean, I do this for a living

I know people from Sevenoaks and they're very lardy-dar, but not everyone will know. It's not obvious to everyone, is it

Okay, sorry. Sevenoaks is a very affluent area. Yes, it is. It's grammar school country as well, isn't it

So everyone's piled in there to buy expensive houses and get their children a private quality education for free

Well, this is the thing, isn't it? I mean, so we do have a charity

I'm not involved, but we have a charity for housing refugees. People often donate furniture and stuff to help this charity out

They're a very good charity. So, yeah, we do have refugees in the area. But the main problem will be

and there's two things I want to point out here, there will be massive complaints

especially from the most affluent because of house prices this is what I honestly believe

So as in an asylum hostel or an asylum accommodation will bring down house prices

100% I think so I think that will be the main complaint also I live in North Sevenoaks

which is still very expensive area to live in but there's more council housing etc

I think we're already having loads of development planning putting in place in this part of Sevenoaks, obviously because it is less affluent

And I think it will be put into areas that are already overcrowded and already going

under major development. Well, there's two things going on here as well, isn't there

Because if, let's say, half a dozen asylum seekers got moved into a house in a fancy

part of Sevenoaks, then maybe it would have an impact on house prices

I'm not so sure about that, but certainly effort would be put into claiming that the neighbourhood had gone down the toilet as a consequence

A hundred percent, it would. But equally, wouldn't the same people who complained about the so-called hotels then be jumping up and down saying

why on earth are they being housed in a house that's more expensive? I mean, you'd appeal to a certain type of voter by saying they're in a nicer house than you are

Yeah, and I live in, well, I mean, I live in the town, so we were more liberal, voted with them

There are areas that will definitely go on the Nigel Farage kind of rhetoric

But I do believe that everyone should take their fair share and, you know, as a country, support each other

Yeah, I mean, not everybody does, of course. No, of course not. I mean, I'll get messages, no doubt, and I'll read them out

I'll read out some of them, a representation of people who simply believe that we can somehow cut the cord

or turn off the tap and our responsibilities on the international stage

are something that we can shirk or hide or deny and leave other countries to deal with these problems

And, I mean, that's a very hard position to argue with. And that, of course, is precisely the constituency

that people like Chris Philp and Honest Bob Jenrick are appealing to very, very disingenuously because they know that it is actually impossible

And you don't want to be a country that has detached itself from international law and international responsibilities

and community and sort of planet-based cooperation. But I don't know. I think, Sarah, for what it's worth

and this thought is crystallising as this conversation continues, I think we're going to look back and think it was a mistake

to make such a fuss about the hotels because the other facilities are going to involve

much bigger concentrations of people. And that is what I think can be intimidating

People can just look at a number like 1,250 arriving on the outskirts of Piddington in Oxfordshire

and be absolutely staggered. If it was 12 people moving into 100 villages

then it wouldn't have the same heft, would it? It wouldn't land the same. Well, I drove through Crowborough not that long ago

Oh, absolutely terrifying. The main road leading down to where the asylum place is going to be

Yes. somebody, people had climbed trees and just done a whole row of British and English flags

and it was blatantly there for intimidation, it literally ended as soon as you came to the

area where it's going to happen and it reminded me of something out of

I know it's the English flag, it's not the Nazi flag, but it was

terrifying for me just the volume there's nothing terrifying about it and I know you know this, but just to make sure

Nobody has ammunition to pretend that they don't understand. It is the sheer volume of flags that is reminiscent of fascist regimes

I don't get that bit. I know that they can intimidate people who are of colour

or people who have a history of immigration in the family because the message that they receive, and I think it's intended

is that you are not welcome here. But an asylum seeker is going to love to see the English flag

I mean, that is a symbol of what they have run towards, the English flag

But hey, what do I know? It is 11.29. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

The number you need if you want to join this conversation is 03456060973

I hesitate to ask you whether or not you think we're going to look back and think that repurposed hotels were probably the best solution to this issue

Unless, of course, you think it's possible to wash your hands and detach yourself completely from international reality

Here's Dominic Ellis with the headlines. James O'Brien on LBC. It's 33 minutes after 11

and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. You simply just don't get it, James

This is, let me get the name right on this, from Dan. We don't want any more

and it's people like you that are the issue. I go out every day to work and pay for these people

I've had enough now, no more immigrants. I do get it. I mean, to be fair, Dan

you may have said that before I did so, but I've been repeatedly reflecting the position of people like you

And I don't say people like you with any particular sneer in my voice or anything like that

I just mean people who believe that we can do that. Or people, and this may not be you, mate

but people who believe that we do more than other countries. Or people who believe that there are routes by which you could come here

that wouldn't render you technically irregular or illegal. or people who believe that everybody who is coming here from overseas via asylum or refugee routes is undesirable or is dodgy

I mean, in terms of what it costs, it is a tiny fraction of annual expenditure

And I mean truly tiny in percentage terms. And, you know, in terms of what your tax pound would do if this issue were to be completely

somehow completely excised from our shared reality the answer is nothing Of course the answer is nothing You know if you really want to save a ton of money on your taxes then we have to abolish the state pension or get rid of the army

Do you know what I mean? The army wouldn't make much difference either

We'd have to stop paying sick people the money that they need to sort of have a form of life

So it doesn't matter who you pick. The idea that they shouldn't be getting any money from our taxes is powerful

I get it. But don't say I don't get it. I do get it. I don't agree with you

And I don't think that the solution you described would improve your life in any meaningful way

And I'd probably, and I don't say this with any arrogance, I'd probably pay more tax than you do

So according to your measures, your logic, I should be angrier than you are. But I'm not

I would be, in certain circumstances. If someone moved into my area

and they were an asylum seeker, and they committed a terrible crime, I'd find it hard to resist the conclusion

that they never should have been there in the first place. but I don't like what that says about my mind

I don't like the fact that I would never think the same about a teacher or a police officer

I'd never think, God, they're all wrong ones. You know, where does it lead, that idea

that if you find 100 people and one of them does something terrible then the other 99 deserve to be punished

And don't forget, Dan, what we've seen recently and I'm sure you don't approve of this sort of thing

but when you use language like that, when you say people don't get things

We're talking now about a country where hotels, or repurposed hotels, get attacked

when somebody commits a crime in Southport. Somewhere at the other end of the country will see attacks

And, of course, the Southport crimes were not committed by an asylum seeker, but even if they had been, how on earth does that ever translate

to trying to set fire to a hotel 50 miles away? A repurposed hotel 50 miles away

I mean, I think it's you that doesn't get it, actually. What you don't get is the intrinsic evil of someone being punished and terrorised

for the either actual or imagined misdeeds of somebody they have no association with whatsoever

I'll tell you what you don't get, Dan. If, for example, someone called Dan committed a murder tomorrow

and I encourage people to go and set fire to your house. That's what you don't get

that's what we're looking at here or maybe it's not your name

maybe it's your ethnicity I don't know maybe you have a particular star sign

maybe your grandad was from Latvia I don't know but I could find something right

and someone with the same characteristic committed a murder and I said you don't get it Dan

we've had enough I just don't want people like you in this country anymore sorry I'm not costing it

I'm not costing it you probably are I think over half of the country over the course of their life cost the state more than they put into it

It's those desperate, do-gooding, hand-wringing liberal lefties who are usually paying in more than they're taking out

So I don't know that it's helpful to say you just don't get it. Of course everybody gets it. We've heard nothing else for the last ten years

Get rid of them all. Bomb the boats. I've had enough. Build a wall. Build a wall

Of course you get it. You can't say you don't get it. chances are that what you don't get is the reality of the situation as opposed to the

exaggerated reality that is designed to leave you in exactly the position that you find yourself in

today because in the same minute both at 11 26 this came in i've um from andrew i've lived next

door to a five-bedroom hmo housing asylum seekers for the past four years in an affluent postcode

of a northern city i can safely say that overall the people who have lived there have been some of

the kindest, most considerate and polite individuals I've ever encountered. I'd encourage anyone who discovers that asylum seekers are being housed near them

to reach out, get to know them and help them feel part of the neighbourhood. And I love that

But I also acknowledge that if one of them did commit a terrible crime

it would be very, very, very easy to be angry with all of them

to be angry with every single one of them. And of course, if you were nowhere near the area

it would be very, very easy to get angry at the prospect of anybody from that demographic moving in

They're not monsters. They're human beings who need a safe place to live. Be kind and don't let the headlines dictate

how you treat the people living next door to you. And then you provide a little bit of detail about where you are

But as I expressed earlier, I'm not going to share that because you could be on Twitter 10 minutes later

and someone will be publishing details and rumours and essentially inciting a pogrom

Rob's in Newcross. Rob, what would you like to say? I've got to do this

Oh, Brian, they got you two. OK. Can you? Oh, come on, call yourself an actor

Anyway, you're meant to say, you know, they had me on. Oh, you're doing 19... No, mate, come off it

This isn't exactly normal, is it, this encounter? It has kept me waiting and I'm now shaking with nervousness

Well, don't shake with... Was that a 1984 reference? Yes. Yes, I thought it was

How am I supposed to know that man? I've been O'Brien all my life

I can't just... You know the book inside out. Well, I do know the book inside out

but I wasn't expecting a quote from it quite... Anyway, what made you pick up the phone

I've been waiting years to do it. Anyway. Brilliantly done. Next time I'll be on the ball, I promise

I'm 10... I'm now, well, more than 10 years, secretary of a little TRA, Tennis Association, in Southeast London. And there is a dedicated

flat, we've got more than one actually, for successful refugee claimants to live in a

three-bedroom flat on the ground floor. It's not too fancy, but we've had a succession

of families in there. And in general, it has been a wonderful experience for the community

it's only a small TRE, it's less than 100 flats, but what I'm finding on a personal

level is first dad I don't know what experience they've had because you don't ask but

the children are amazing the children who arrive by whatever means and they've found a secure community

where they can interact with other kids and the experience of just seeing that

as opposed to the kids that I've been watching the English kids

who have just seemed to petrified into their mobile phones but these kids are like

I used to be if you like and this is an entirely volunteer driven initiative

is it, what you're doing? Well, we didn't know it was happening. I see, so they've been moved in by the council

and then the Tenants Association steps in to make them feel more welcome

The Tenants Association then has to deal with the community repercussions. Yes

But there have been successive families. There's an Afghan family of four boys

And they were the perfect example of one of the problems in that they were a mid family The big assumption about refugees is that they all starving they coming A lot of them are middle class who now been shoved into this situation

Yes. And they're now among the working class. But they're bringing middle class, and it's the same, that's a big thing going back, you know, generations

but in general what I'm saying is that the benefits of integrating

these people into the community is the enrichment that they bring it's not about diversity, it's just about vitality

I like these words and you're obviously speaking from experience so I'm not sure

that people can with a straight face accuse you of not getting it in the front line of these sort of experiences

but all I need to do if I'm a certain type of politician

or commentator, all I need to do is correctly point out that when there were protests in Epping last summer

it was because one of the men in that facility had sexually assaulted

a 14-year-old girl. One man and it doesn't matter how many sexual assaults

have happened in Epping or how many of the people who actually turned up to protest had

come to the attention of the authorities previously for domestic abuse or similar crimes, it doesn't

no matter how many of the people hanging up flags unwanted in neighbourhoods

are currently facing murder charges or sexual abuse charges or assault charges

none of that matters. The fact is, here is an asylum seeker who committed a terrible crime

I don't want any of them living anywhere near me. I don't know how you get past that with facts, Rob

Well, collective guilt, or wissenshaft, or whatever you want to call it

Yeah, well, it is collective guilt. The flavour of the decade. Collective punishment. Yeah

Which is a war crime in other contexts. on a community level

is trying to overlay that, get undercut that by interaction. Human interaction between people can solve everything

And that, of course, makes the fear I have, which has only popped up this morning

talking to you and other callers, worry that the what would you call it

The appeasement of the people who were cross about hotels, which cost far much

more than they should have done. You should always whether it's water companies or

people providing accommodation for asylum seekers, just follow the flipping money. You don't need to be

what's that from? Follow the money. Show me the money is Jerry Maguire. What's follow the money

Anyway, follow the money and that's where you'll find out the root of the problem. People that, whether

PPE, people getting incredibly rich while helping nobody during PPE. People getting incredibly rich over the asylum seeker accommodation

Just follow the money if you want to start alleviating problems. Maybe people like Dan would feel better if they could see that the money was being spent more wisely

You know, Tuppence-Hapenny a week for an asylum seeker is for some people too much because they probably don't know that it's Tuppence-Hapenny

But I don't know how you do it. Interactions, and that makes me worry that the big military bases being repurposed

may actually cause more problems than the so-called hotels did. I don't know, but that's my fear at the moment

Rob, what a lovely call. Thank you. It's 11.45. James O'Brien on LBC

It is 11.48. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. What an erudite bunch you are, honestly

It was from All the President's Men, the film detailing the Watergate scandal

and investigation by Woodward and Burstein. Although there's a little side order of The Wire

so I think Follow the Money must have come up in The Wire as well, but I think I was thinking of all the President's Men

which if you haven't seen is an absolute classic, Robert Redford and Dustin Hoffman on top of their games

I think probably I catch myself sometimes, we're always trying to improve, aren't we, as people

You always try to be a better person. I catch myself sometimes jumping down the throat of someone who rings in

to talk about immigration. Obviously, I don't know why, but I do have a peculiar appeal to racists

racists are absolutely fascinated by, a little bit obsessed with me, actually

which is nice, because, you know, it's nice to be somebody's obsession

but not everybody who has got concerns about immigration is a racist, of course not

The problem is that we have all somehow managed to create an environment

in which we've got pogroms unfolding on our streets and they're being reported as if they're reflections of legitimate concerns

and I have to say, responded to by Shabana Mahmood's Home Office in a way that is entirely inadequate and mealy-mouthed

You do not begin a condemnation of pogroms with an acknowledgement that some people have got valid concerns about immigration

The first line of a government response to a pogrom in Norfolk should be to utterly and completely condemn the people taking part in the pogrom in Norfolk

Especially the one that bit a policewoman. Hashtag protect our women, hashtag protect our girls

So we're all, I think, partly to blame. I just want to read you this from Steve, because this is a genuine text sent to the programme

and you can't really argue if everything that Steve says is true

Not Steve, sorry, let me get there. Yes, it is Steve. If everything Steve says is true, and I've got no reason to doubt him

then you would be worried about this. We have an asylum hotel with around 200 men just around the corner from our house

I'm not going to give precise details. I suppose everybody local will know

It's a purely residential area with nothing for these men to do

This leads to large groups of around 20 at a time walking down our residential streets

and congregating in larger groups of around 50 or 60 at the local park

Whether or not these men are trouble or not, it is very intimidating to local women and children

and has ruined the freedoms of most children who previously would have been out playing with friends

but now they can't for fear of coming across a large group of men

I don't think it's just women and children either. So the worst thing you can do is say

that that's an unreasonable objection. Go through the park. Walk through the park on your own

even if you're a middle-aged man, and six lads of a certain age

late teens, six lads sitting on the picnic table, I don't know, skinning up, listening to music

doing whatever it is they're doing. Some of them might have their hoods up, some of them don't. Ethnicity irrelevant

But you feel a frisson. And then you remember, hang on, what did I do when I was 18

I mean, there wasn't a lot you could do. You congregate in outdoor spaces

You've got nowhere else to go. But 50? I mean, that is obviously intimidating

Unless they're sort of dressed in cassocks and singing Land of Hope and Glory

unless they're literally choir boys, you are going to be intimidated by that

And then you add, Steve, the bit that is unhelpful. Well, not unhelpful, but relevant

There have also been several sexual assaults which have been reported on local Facebook pages

But then these posts are mysteriously removed and the posters get blocked from the pages, etc

That's because they're lying. That's because it's not true. But there will be cases of sexual assault being committed by asylum seekers

just as there are cases of sexual assault being committed by police officers and teachers and radio presenters

and people called Steve and Capricorns and Sagittarians. So, you know, the lies will be taken, the truth won't, because it'll be reported, mate

It'll be in court. It'll be in the local paper. If someone is going to the trouble of taking it down from community websites, it's because they've been able to confirm that it's true

I'm going to do that. I'm going to do these conversations a little more

I think there's another one here saying they are supposed to stop in the first safe country. They're not

I can't get tired now. I'm just going to carry on doing it calmly. There's no legal rule in international law that requires refugees to claim asylum in the first safe country they reach

And guess what would happen if there was? Just think about it

Imagine if everybody fleeing Ukraine had to stay in Poland. How many refugees left Ukraine

Okay, now every single one of them has to stay in Poland because it was... Just think about it

Come on. I'm going to do it calmly. I'm not going to be condescending

But it's daft, the idea that you have to stay in the first safe country you reach

because then the country, whatever country happened to be next door to the country from which you were fleeing

maybe it's a British thing. Maybe we can actually think to ourselves because we're an island nation

Well, that'll never be us, will it? That'll never be us. And maybe Western France, we'd be the nearest country

slightly further away than Spain, but do you see what I mean? So it's just not true

All of these things, I've been listening to them on the radio for years

I can't think why. It's almost as if some presenters encourage it. But these myths, these things that aren't true

If you want to know how many people are coming here by small boats compared to last year, compare it to last year

and pick like weird little windows in the calendar and say, well, there's 10 more in that window than there were in that window

They're just arbitrary figures. It's gone down by 44%, I think, overall

What are you going to do if your livelihood depends upon terrorizing people

Well, you're going to either focus on the size of the boats and not mention the fall in the numbers

or you're going to pick a little window here and compare it to a little window there

while completely ignoring the fact that the overall figures have come down

it's actually, I mean, incredible when you see it to note how pathetic it is

But here we are, that's Brexit Britain. Carly's in Lambeth. Carly, what made you pick up the phone

Hi, James. I'm really privileged. I run a hosting programme for refugees and people seeking asylum

an organisation called Refugees at Home. Right. And it just really struck me

The Prime Minister today said that he believes all parts of the country need to work

to play their part, to welcome refugees. They already are, James. I thought so

I thought so. Tell us more. I mean, you are once again at the absolute front line of this

So no doubt Dan will be in touch shortly to explain that you just don't get it. But tell me what is going on

Well, James, we've been running this program for around 10 years now

and hosted over nearly 8,000 people in people's homes. And this is the breadth of the UK from Belfast to Ilfracoon, Beckenham to the Isle of Lewis

We have guests, what we call refugees and people seeking asylum who stay with us

staying across the country and we really see communities benefiting from this and really

people making a difference in their communities we're really humbled we have our hosts are

extraordinary people but they're ordinary people they have a spare room they want to do something

practical to help and yes there are people that hate what we do they hate that we do host refugees

but really this is just about people. Refugee is just a label

This is people in need of help. This is people coming to this country through incredibly dangerous routes

because there's no other route available for them to try and build a life

and that's what we'd want to happen in our lives too. And I think it's really difficult

when we do hear people talking about poorer areas and richer areas

but really what we see at Refugees at Home is people want to help

Our hosts tell us the thing they love about hosting is how practical it is

And of course, not everybody's lucky enough to have a spare bedroom. If you don't have a spare bedroom, we've got tens of thousands, probably hundreds of thousands of people in the UK who are doing their bit to welcome refugees, whether they have arrived from Syria

We had over 250,000 Ukrainians who arrived so far because our country opened its doors

That welcome is absolutely everywhere. But it's the Home Office who decide where people are housed when they're seeking asylum

They are the ones who decide how many people share a room. They're the ones who decide which contracts they give out

and multi-million pound contracts they give out. Huge sums, huge sums of money

Like terrifying numbers, like too many digits to even think about. But that's the Home Office

That's our government's decision, where they place people. And actually, I think that upswell of support back in 2015

where hundreds of thousands of people took to the streets to welcome refugees from Syria, to say we've got to help people

The same happened in Afghanistan, with Afghanistan, I should say, in 2021

And then look at what happened in 2022 when the Ukraine program, a government-backed scheme was opened

I mean, so many people signed up. It made the gov.uk website fall over

How problematic have the boats been? Because there's something about an island nation and the crossing of the seas

and I know that you know, and I get impatient, but I try not to get across with people who genuinely don't know

that this is a consequence of very deliberate policy. This is not something that's sort of sprouted organically from the population

How big a difference do you think the so-called small boats, although we might have to rename them soon

how big a difference they've made to public opinion and public feeling

I think that the routes that people take by sea at the moment are really what people talk about

But I've been working in this sector. I've been very privileged to work in this sector for a long time

15 years ago, it was by road. It wasn't by boat. People didn't seem to get as much in up as arms

They tried. I mean, people clinging onto lorries or someone being filmed hopping out the back of a lorry on the M25

But it never landed with quite... I don't think it landed with quite the same emotion

and I don't know if it's because it's so very so much more visible than perhaps planes or claiming

asylum at the airport that also happens people yes pay for a flight and claim asylum because it's

their human right to do so I we do hear a lot about small boats we definitely do as you say

I don't think small is the word anymore it's terrifying what's happening in the channel

but I also think it is that people are standing up against that

People are coming forward and saying, well, if you've had to force this route to the UK

because there is really no what the government would call a safe and legal route

but let's call a safe route to the UK where you wait to be assessed for your refugee status to be assessed

and you're given a pathway into the UK. That doesn't exist so much anymore

Yes, the government are talking about this named sponsorship route where you'll be able to sponsor refugees similar to homes for Ukraine

But it's not there yet. They're saying that's not going to be ready till 2027, yet the population of refugees worldwide is so huge

whether that's from escaping war and violence, whether that's escaping environmental damage

People want a better life, and we have no route to get here. And Barry been in touch to say Britain is a small island It totally full We have no vacancies So I mean it so hard to know isn it whether or not it worth having conversations like this one

when public discourse is largely defined by people pandering to or sounding like Barry

But I don't think we have these conversations enough, actually, Carly. I don't think that the other side of the..

And the problem is, as I mentioned to the last chap, the problem is that here is evidence of an asylum seeker committing a terrible crime

I imagine that some of the people that your charity has helped have abused the hospitality that they have received

And somehow that is used as a hammer with which to hit every single person in this category of humanity

And that's, I think, the hardest thing. It's not your job to tackle this. It might be mine

But that's the hardest thing to overcome. Here is genuine proof of wrongdoing by an asylum seeker or by some asylum seekers

One in a thousand, one in a ten thousand. Therefore, we must attack all ten thousand of them

That's where we are now as a country, I think. I think it's all of our responsibility, not just yours, to have these brave conversations

I think we should be saying, why are you worried? What is this about

If you're, did you say it was Barry who had texted in, is saying this country is full

Well, what does he mean by that? Is it because he cannot access his services? He says 70 million and counting, he said

I mean, look, his fourth text was, three texts ago, was send the asylum seekers back to France

It's a safe country. So we've explained why that's an unfeasible point

I mean, to be fair to Barry, you've got politicians making similar claims

with more knowledge than he's got about how impossible it is. But he moves from no vacancies to 70 million and counting

So there's just no room, Carly. I mean, I respectfully disagree. I would want to explore with Barry

Why does he feel like that? Is that because maybe a service that he needs

if he cannot get a GP's appointment? That's an argument you hear quite a lot, isn't it

Too many refugees, so we can't get GP appointments. Or is it because GPs are so woefully underfunded

health conditions are increasing, and the government are not placing money into health services

That's not the fault of Mohammed, who has arrived in this country desperately seeking asylum

having, you know, risked his life to get here. That's simply not the case

And I think when everybody is doing without, and we are all doing without at the moment, right

Life is incredibly expensive. It's very easy to other and to blame people

I'm not sure refugees are the people who need to be blamed for this

No, and yet, of course, I suppose historically, the worst things are for people

then the more susceptible they are to the invitation to blame him over there

Thank you, Carly. That's amazing work that you do. The organisation, Carly, is currently running is known as Refugees at Home

if you want to find out more about it. I'll leave you with a sort of upbeat thoughts

It's certainly news to me. I don't know where... Yes, he did

He was in Thetford. So Thetford is the scene of pogroms this week, last week, three nights running

Actual pogroms, dictionary definition. I wish it wasn't true, but it just is

the first ever black mayor in this country was the mayor of um thetford he was elected to the

town council of thetford in 1903 and the next year he was elected mayor serving two one-year terms

the first known black mayor in england um alan glazier minns who came here from uh inagua in the Bahamas

And there you go. There's nothing new under the sun, is there? It's just, I suppose

slightly different ways of serving the same stuff up. James O'Brien on LBC

It is eight minutes after 12. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

A double murderer and rapist currently being sentenced after some quite extraordinary police

failures that have already been admitted by justice agencies. I may catch up

on that story with Fraser Knight a little later this hour, as and when the judge is summing

up is complete. Hideous story. Hideous human. It is eight minutes after twelve. But I think

we'll end today on a slightly lighter note. Or at least spend the final hour

I love stuff like this. I love stuff that I come at genuinely baffled

Baffled isn't even the right word. So this eclipse, this solar eclipse that is happening today

do we know roughly what time it's happening? It hasn't happened already, has it? It's happening about 7 o'clock this evening

And understandably, you can hear Dominic talking about it in the news bulletin

I came in today and the team on Capital Extra had made their own eclipse glasses out of a cardboard box

Honestly, I thought I'd stumbled upon an audition for Blue Peter and they were all outside checking out their boxes

Apparently they worked. They'd followed proper instructions. they were delighted with the results

I said, how do you know it works if the eclipse hasn't happened yet? And then I came into the production office

just waiting to come on air as Nick finished, and Jones the engineer was talking about colanders

saying, you don't just look at it, you don't look at the sun through a colander. And I said, why are you talking about colanders

I don't even know why you're talking about colanders. Anyway, if you do look at the sun through a colander

you're probably going to strain your eyes. No? Strain? Strain? No? Alright

And children, and the spectacles have all sold out. I heard some other colleagues on the news desk talking about how someone said

I think they've got something, Robert Dias. And then someone else immediately Googled it. And then they said, no, they've sold out as well

Everyone's sold out of eclipse spectacles that allow you to look at the solar eclipse

And this is not an experiment in, what's the word that I want

In misery, guts, okay? You know, if you Google solar eclipse, they actually do a kind of solar eclipse on the Google page

There's like one of those little graphic, or am I just looking at a picture of something? Anyway, no matter

The key timings for the point at which the sun will block out the moon

Is that right? Or the moon will block out the sun. The key timings are easily secure

Three ways to watch the solar eclipse safely without glasses. One of them, I think, includes a colander

It's the country's most significant eclipse since 1999. Do not look at the sun directly without specialist glasses

Sunglasses are not good enough, or dark goggles. They have to be specifically manufactured for staring at the sun

or for looking directly at the sun. You will not get enough UV protection from even dark glasses

It will damage your eyesight, according to the Royal Astronomical Society. So you can make a little pinhole projector using card, paper and pen

You can use a colander and you shine the sunlight through the colander

So each hole in the colander becomes a little projection of the eclipse

and therefore each hole will close up. Or, and this is what I think the team on Capital Extra were doing

you can make a pinhole viewer out of a cardboard box foil and paper So you can look all of this up and you can find it online

Loads of people sent me that, don't look at the sun through a colander, it'll strain your eyes joke

Too many for me to credit, which is why I attempted to pass it off as my own, but the guilt has overcome me

The guilt has overcome me. I'm not being that bloke, right? I am categorically not being that bloke

What's the opposite of a Pollyanna? A curmudgeon. That's a lovely word, isn't it

A curmudgeon. Who's remembered the word of the day so far? Who's already forgotten it

Do you have a word of the day that we got? Sinopoptic or something like that

It'll come to me. I'm not being a curmudgeon. I am just asking you

to tell me what is so exciting about this. Do you see what I mean

I think I've got a view. I've got one idea and you could say

what's the, could you say what's the point of going to a concert, here's the thing

right, when Edward VIII died, as he was briefly, the Duke of Windsor

better known as, subsequently, after his abdication, I'm pretty sure it was him, I can't see who else it would have been

in about 1972 my mum, bless her, and she's doing great, thanks for all your

kind inquiries, if I'm sounding a I don't think that I am, Keith, am I

But if I am sounding a little bit bruised at the moment, then it's because mum's been in and out of hospital

for a couple of weeks now, and it's never easy to deal with. But in about, it must have been 1972

she sat me down in front of the television because the Duke of Windsor's funeral was on

And she was quite proud of this fact growing up. She'd often say

well, you know, you witnessed the Duke of Windsor's funeral, and I'm just going to check the date actually before my inbox explodes

and it was probably 1973 wasn't it and the point was that she sort of thought that I should witness

yeah it was May 1972 so I'd have been January, February, March, April, May

I'd have been five months old and mum sat me down in front of the television

so that I could watch the Duke of Edinburgh's, Duke of Windsor's funeral

and I have never understood that at all. The sheer, the simple act of witnessing something

I've never really got my head around that. And then we come to matters meteorological

or to do with space, not the weather so much. I had Patrick Moore on the show years ago

and I was being a git, actually, then. I was being a sort of provocative, performative provocateur

and I said something to Edward VIII, not Henry VIII, thank you, Colin

I didn't attend Henry VIII's funeral, either via television or in person

I just want to get that out there, make that absolutely clear. Or indeed Henry VII, VI, V, IV, III, II or I

But I did watch Edward VIII's funeral on the telly, and then I had Patrick Moore on the show right at the beginning of this

and a long, long journey that we've been on together. And I suggested to him it was all a bit pointless

What's the point of just going to the moon? did someone say because it's there or was that something else was that mount everest why are you

why are you doing that why are you going to the middle just because it's there and then i i remember

the 1999 eclipse when everybody was very very excited and i joined in but i'm going to confess

something to you i i didn't really get it i did the thing i did the thing with the with the thing

and i just didn't really get it i'd i just sort of watched this thing on a piece of paper and

another thing crossed it over and the light got kind of cancelled out

and then it got uncancelled out again and it moved off again. And I want to make something absolutely clear to you

I'm not being a fun sponge. I sound like a fun sponge, but I'm not being a fun sponge

I really wish I was as excited as some of my colleagues are

I really want to be excited by this and I think I probably can be. I like stuff like this

I mean, I like flipping cranes. I like looking at cranes. Who likes looking at cranes

Me. I like looking at bridges. I love bridges. Just little bridges, big bridges, any old bridge

I love bridges. I'm sounding like that fast show character now. It's brilliant, brilliant bridges

So I'm not, by any stretch of the imagination, immune to the joys and beauties of just looking at stuff

You know, just simply looking at stuff. But I don't quite understand this

I don't get excited about space in the way that some people do, but I don't think this is really about space, is it

And also, here's the thing I do love. Here's the thing I do love

I love phonings that are about things that are hard to put into words

It's a very weird, almost quasi-masochistic trait that I have. I don't know whether it's the Catholic big C in me coming out

It's a form of professional self-flagellation. It becomes my own hair shirt

How can you like phone-ins about things that are hard to put into words? Surely the best phone-ins are the ones about things that are easy to put into words

because you've got a queue from here to eternity of people waiting to say interesting and clever things

But I like the phone-ins about things that are hard to put into words

There's a line in John Keats that you've heard me quote a million times. It's in a letter, not a poem

He says, Oh, for a life of sensation rather than of thought

And I think about that line a lot. oh for a life of sensation rather than of thought and what i think he meant was

feeling things rather than simply articulate you do you see what i mean sometimes you can't put

into words what a feeling is you can't explain what is going on and i always want to try i always

want to try and articulate the sensation i want to describe the sensation by turning it into a thought

Does that make sense? I think it does. So here's the question

Why are you so excited? Because I really want to be. I'd love to

I sound like Kevin Keegan now. I've gone from Paul Whitehouse to the late, great Kevin Keegan in the space of six minutes

This evening, in the back garden, if I can just tear my eyes away from the aridity of my lawn

and focus instead upon what's above us, I want to feel as excited as you do

or as excited as other people do. What is it about a solar eclipse that floats your boat

0345 6060 973. Do you think you are capable, like a kind of Chris Packham or a Fred Dibner

or a Brian Cox, Professor Brian Cox, do you think you are capable of actually communicating enthusiasm to other people

Firstly, me. Because I watch Fred Dibner on the telly, and suddenly I'm fascinated by steeples

I watch Chris Packham on the telly and suddenly I'm fascinated by wildlife

that I wouldn't have been fascinated by previously. David Attenborough can do it

Fred Dibner could do it. Chris Packham can do it. Professor Brian Cox can do it

Can you do it? Can you make the solar eclipse exciting? For those of us

I reckon I could do it with cranes, actually, if you gave me a long enough run but can you do it with the solar eclipse Can you explain to me A why you so excited And B perhaps why the rest of us should be

Just try to articulate the excitement. It's coming up to 20 past 12

As I suggested a moment ago, the judge has nearly finished his sentencing remarks

in the case of the murderer and prolific sex attacker, Simon Levy, from Tottenham

He's just been handed a whole life order at the Old Bailey for the murder of two women and the violent rape of a third while on bail

And this is where the justice system appears to have failed heinously. While on bail for other offences last year

So, more on that, no doubt, before the end of the hour

But alongside it, a much happier contemplation of why exactly is a solar eclipse so exciting

Just tell me, in words, that's how the show works, generally. Or just noises, if you want

Tell me in words why you're so excited. Because hand on heart, I'm jealous

Or envious, at least. I'm envious. What a wonderful thing to get excited about

It's free and it's happening tonight. Right now, I couldn't give a fig. James O'Brien on LBC

It is 21 minutes after 12 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

And it's a weird one, isn't it? What else would we put on the list of things that you can watch somebody else get very excited about

and not get excited about yourself? I told you, didn't I, about my train spotting adventures earlier this year

when just a train opened up from one of the stations in Ealing

one of the Elizabeth Line stops in Ealing, that this special electric train, a repurposed electric train

now runs a small line, only about five stops to Greenford. And I went along on the first day that it opened

I'm not a train spotter, particularly, but I don't know, I was at a loose end

I think Mrs. O'Brien was out and their kids were doing much more exciting things than I was

And I saw it on a website and I thought, well, it's only, you know, I just hop on a bus

It's like about, it's about six bus stops away. So I went and I'm really glad I went

I mean, sitting on the train was not that exciting and seeing the train was not that exciting

I was interested in the science behind it and the way forward that perhaps it points to the future

but what really delighted me was almost the osmosis of other people's happiness

I did that to tease Keith. West Ealing and Greenford. It's a class 230 unit that recharges its batteries

in a three-minute stop at West Ealing and then hops off to Greenford again. It's the UK's first ever scheduled passenger-carrying

rapid-charging, battery-only electric train. January of this year I went up there

and I loved it but what I loved about it was how excited

the other people there were and that's why I think I can probably get more excited

about the solar eclipse Sebastian is in Worthing Sebastian what have you got

Hi there James I'd just like to say first of all thank you so much for having a conversation

on a topic like this Oh you're welcome Because it's quite hard to get people interested

in something as fleeting and as passing as a solar eclipse but I'm really really glad

that it's on national radio So, first of all, thank you. Well, first of all, thank you

And second of all, it's all on you now, mate, because I've done. I've got nothing else to say

So, for reference, I'm the events officer of the UCL Space Society

I'm a student up in London. And it's effectively my job to get people interested in stuff like this

And one of the things which is amazing about a solar eclipse

and particularly solar eclipses on Earth, is that they're not going to be around for much longer

So one of the main coincidences about the Earth and the Sun is that the Sun is around 400 times further away than the Moon is to the Earth

Yes. And the Moon is 400 times smaller, such that they effectively match each other up perfectly to the point where they cover each other

And that occurrence does not happen on any other planet in the solar system, not one

and there are planets out there with 60 plus moons and they do not have that same ratio coincidence

So that's one thing about Earth. And the other thing... Just stop for a second

because what you're communicating is a sort of wonder of the universe, isn't it

And the rarity of it and the statistical, almost anomalous nature of it

is just exciting. And why is it exciting? Because it never happens, James

or it hardly ever happens and it may not happen again. Think about the odds. What are the odds in that enormous great theatre in the sky

What are the odds of that orb aligning with that orb and that orb in such a way that they block each other out

despite being so disproportionately sized? That's what you're describing to me. And the fact that we only have one moon as well

And what makes it even more incredible, James, if you can even imagine that, is that this is not going to happen for much longer

Because of the gravitational forces between the Earth and the Moon, they are slowly drifting apart from one another a few inches every year

such that the Moon will no longer cover the Sun in a few thousand

hundreds of thousands of years. I see. I thought that was coming, because you sounded as if it was going to happen next week

But then I remembered that you are the events officer at the UCL Space Society, so you speak in different metrics from me

You have a different grasp of time. So it's not going to happen for much longer, James

maybe just a few thousand years. And so, yeah, this is a very rare cosmic event

And the last thing I'd like to say is that it somewhat ties into your conversation earlier

about the arid nature of the landscape at the moment. And if you ever want a fantastic reminder

of how fleeting and brief our existence is, just look up at a solar eclipse

this passing shadow that travels thousands of miles an hour across the Earth

And that should bring into perspective how much we need to protect the Earth. and look after our environment

What do you... I'm going to do the tricky bit now. What do you feel

What will you feel later tonight? Just for people tuning in. Hang on a minute

For people who've just tuned in, we're talking about the solar eclipse. I'm not making inappropriate inquiries of Sebastian

What will you feel as you watch the solar eclipse this evening

I guess you could call it wonder and awe. Yeah. And also, I sense that you were mentioning the romantic poets

I think it's sublime. Wow, wow I'm close actually, you're very good at this

a great communicator I'm close to getting it and you remind me of the things that I do understand

which would include the beauty of a big sky you know, just staring at the sky sometimes

and being reminded of your own pointlessness or of your own irrelevance

in the great scheme of things I think is very healthy and this also reminds us that we are

like tiny, tiny things on a much, much bigger canvas What will you do, can I ask

What methods will you be deploying to observe it? So, I've tried my darndest to get my hands on a pair of eclipse glasses

It's the events officer of the University College London Space Society can't get hold of any eclipse glasses

What chance is there for the rest of us? What chance is there for the rest of us

So I'm going to be heading up high downhill later with a colander in my hand and I'm going to be trying my best at making a pinhole camera

Well, good luck to you. How many people will be on High Down Hill with colanders in there

It sounds like a folk song, that, doesn't it? What did lovely Carol say earlier that sounded like a Chas and Dave song

She said, I went down the National Trust. There's a Chas and Dave song that never got recorded

What rhymes with I went down the National Trust, I wonder? Thank you, Sebastian. Room for more

What is the magic of this moment? So it's not really, as Sebastian has communicated

about what you're going to see, is it? It's about what the thing that you see or don't see represents

what it actually represents. It represents the enormity of the universe and the extraordinary nature of chance

The fact that you can have these massively different-sized orbs, planets, stars, aligning in such a way

that one is blocked out by the other, and you can see it from the third

I get that. I do get that. I don't feel it as keenly as I want to yet

but I reckon I probably can. I reckon I probably will. So, simple question

why are you so excited by this, so entranced, so engaged? 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need

The time is approaching half past 12 and the news headlines will be with us shortly

After that, we'll get back to the question of what it is. What is it

Getting some lovely messages in as well. One from an atheist describing it's the closest I ever come to sort of feeling a godlike phenomenon

More of that after the very latest headlines with Matt Hewitt. James O'Brien on LBC

It is 12.32 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

Let us cross live to the Old Bailey where, as you just heard in Matt's news bulletin

the serial sex attacker and now murderer double murderer Simon Levy has been jailed for a whole

life term and there are some details to this case Fraser that beg a belief quite frankly

yeah there are James Simon Levy was sentenced today for two murders and one rape but of course

going back the three of them were committed last year while he was on bail being investigated for

a whole series of sexual offenses that were taking place on London's transport network

So there have, of course, been a lot of questions about failures of the criminal justice system

to stop him before he could go on to kill. Now, today in court, we heard some very powerful victim impact statements

from relatives of Simon Levy's victims. The mum of Cheryl Wilkins, who he murdered in a car park in Tottenham

she had said that she believed her daughter losing her life actually led to him being stopped in his tracks

because it was after her death when he was finally arrested and charged by the Metropolitan Police

She died a day before her 40th birthday, her mum told the court

And she said that I hope you never walk the streets again

because you are a threat to all women. Today, though, the judge handing him a whole life order

meaning that will become a reality. Simon Levy will never get out of prison

There was also a really powerful written statement from a woman who he raped in that same car park

seven months earlier. She had said to the court that she was trafficked to the UK in 2012

and she said that the day she was raped by Simon Levy

he took away my soul and my dignity. Any emotion you can imagine he took away from me

to make him stronger and make me weak. She went on to say

what he created by raping me one night was worse than all my years of experience of being trafficked

Now, the judge in this case, Mark Leucraft KC, has said that Simon Levy ruthlessly exploited

and took advantage of these women for your own sexual satisfaction. And that is why he has given him this whole life order

after a change in the law, which means that anyone who kills with a sexual or a sadistic motivation behind it

should automatically be given one of these whole life orders. And adding to that, the judge said he didn't see any mitigating factors here

that would make him reduce that sentence in any way. So today, Simon Levy, 40 years old, a prolific sex attacker who went on to kill two women

rape a third, showed zero emotion in that courtroom as he was led back down into the docks

and will be taken back to prison for the rest of his life. Any comment from the judge on authority failings

The Metropolitan Police, the British Transport Police, the Crown Prosecution Service, all facing criticism and indeed admitting failings in how they dealt with Levy

They have admitted failings and we of course know that now two police officers are under

investigation as well. In terms of the judge's sentencing remarks, he didn't go too much into

any of those feelings, but he did say that the fact that Simon Levy was on bail, was under

investigation, repeated the exact same attack three times. It was, you know, one of his victims

survived it, two of them, though, were killed. He said that that showed the premeditation behind it

the lack of remorse, the fact that he was on court bail

when he killed his second victim, Cheryl Wilkins, that added to that premeditation

and that is why his sentence was so strong. And a lot of detail about his background as well, Fraser

The judge going into particular detail about Levy's obsession with sexual violence

evidence of which was found in his home. Yeah, on his computers, on his devices

He had a list of a lot of his sexual gratifications of what he wanted to do, of the searches he had

And that, the judge said, added to the understanding of him as a person and the fact that he was so obsessed with rape, with sexual assault

Of course, we know that over seven years he was assaulting women at random on the underground

on the London Transport Network earlier this year. He was actually jailed for six years

And we weren able to report that until this trial had come to a conclusion That six years now though much bigger in terms of you know the fact that he will actually now serve the rest of his life in prison having been given a whole life order

Fraser Knight, live from the Old Bailey, where, as you heard, the murderer and sex attacker Simon Levy

has been jailed for a whole life term, which, given that there have been a lot of conversations lately

about sentencing and about whether more people should be serving longer sentences

and people being released early, that means that does exactly what it says on the tin

That is a whole life term, a rare decision for a judge to make

but one which, in this case, I can't imagine anybody, frankly, objecting to

Just apropos, nothing in particular, but given the conversation that we were having

in the second hour of the programme today, I was just struck by the fact that the surviving rape victim

whose name we don't know, We know the name of the two women that he murdered

But the surviving rape victim told the court that she had become a drug addict and a sex worker after being trafficked into the United Kingdom

He took away my soul that night and he took away my dignity, she said, calling the attack worse than all the nights of being a victim of trafficking

Adding, this man is a parasite, not worthy of any more of my words or time

a horrible horrible story about a horrible horrible man it is coming up to 12 40 you are

listening to james o'brien where on a i mean obviously an entirely different note we are

preparing anticipating tonight's celestial events there's a phrase that's correct quite got a nice

ring to it hasn't it tonight's celestial events i'm wondering what it is exactly that you

are going to be or are already getting so excited about. Emma puts it well

I like this, actually, that we are... It's Neolithic. It's transcendent. For about six minutes or so, all of us are monkeys

looking up carefully at something far bigger than us, something unknowable and unreachable

And to that end, two messages that arrived in quick succession, actually

both at 12.29. The first from Alison, As an atheist, a solar eclipse is the closest I get to believing in some great designer

The idea that the moon is exactly the right size and at exactly the right distance from the earth to shade the sun exactly

rather than a small transit that ever one without a telescope would even notice

It fascinates me. And Anthony, who I don't think is an atheist, quotes Psalm 8

When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars which you have set in place

what is mankind that you are mindful of them, human beings that you care for them

You have made them a little lower than the angels and crowned them with glory and honour

What an amazing juxtaposition of messages from Anthony and Alison, one of whom takes their atheism as the starting point and one of whom takes a Christian text as a starting point

and yet somehow both arrive in a very similar place. Chris is in Winnish in Berkshire

Chris, what would you like to say? Good afternoon, James. So just a bit of context, I remember the last one in 1999

I was a chef standing outside a restaurant and I thought it was an amazing thing. Unfortunately, since then, I've lost my eyesight

So tonight, I'm extremely excited because I remember the feeling of it going from hot to a lot cooler

and the birds starting to sing because they thought it was twilight. So for me, it's quite an emotional thing

Tonight, I'll be stood on my patio. I won't look. Obviously, I can't see anything anyway

but I still won't look. But I'm just so excited because I know that one minute

it's going to be really hot, and then all of a sudden, the temperature will drop

the birds will start singing, and it's one weather event that I can actually see

because I miss not being able to see sunsets or lightning or those sort of things

So for me, it'll be like it's actually something I can physically feel and hear

where I've missed so many things over the years. And the other senses will be in overdrive

Most of the other senses will be in overdrive. So I'm just very excited about it

because it's very rare that I can be involved in something like that and it's something I miss

So, yeah, I'm very excited. Thank you very much. Well, even I'm not going to argue with you, mate, am I

That's an absolutely beautiful testimony to the power of it. And that's what I think we're getting to now

I probably should have spotted this sooner, but it is about scale, isn't it

It's Emma describing it as neolithic. It's transcendent. It's so much bigger than anything else that we ever think about

or talk about or worry about. Yep. Well, good luck. Enjoy it

What happens? What do the birds do? So I remember last time, they start singing

So as if it's twilight. So they think it's bedtime. They start roosting almost

So it's really, really eerie and strange. So, you know, for me, but that's just, it connects me to it

And I'm just like, I really can't wait. I will think of you, actually, later, if that's all right with you, Chris

Of course. She'll think of you, and I will listen out for the birds, while also, no doubt, trying to work out what on earth

I'm supposed to be doing with my colander. It's 12.43, you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC

This is nice, isn't it? I mean, be careful. You do get damage

I mean, some people do get injured. You shouldn't look at the sun, ever

But the temptation to do it on a night like tonight is obviously going to be greater than it usually is

I don't know if A&E gets overrun, does it, with people who've actually hurt themselves or damaged themselves

but it can be permanent, the damage. So just look it up, just Google it quickly. There'll be all sorts of advice

There's probably some on our website, but just get the advice. Thanks to Ash, who's been in touch

I think that's Ash in Northampton, our Hormuz expert, who we should probably catch up with soon

He says, hi, James, don't worry, you can use a welding mask to look

Oh, right, I'll just get the welding mask out of the attic then, shall I? Mate, who's got a welding mask lying around

No, you haven't, Keith. Have you? No. No one's got a welding mask

Oh, don't worry. If you can't get hold of any eclipse glasses, don't worry, you can use your welding mask

Oh, that's all right, then. I'll just use my welding mask. Paul's in Perth. Paul, what would you like to say

Oh, hi there. Good afternoon. Hello, Paul. It's got a real kind of ethereal feeling for me

Ever since I was a kid, watching the lunar eclipses as well with my dad

Yes. And he passed away in 96, so the later ones I was on my own

and I know he would have been there with me if he was still around but the one in 1999

was particularly special it was 11th of August if I remember right

and I was in Putlochery and I was sitting on top of a bin lorry

with a welding mask on you couldn make it up could you honestly it was amazing somebody said I looked like I was waiting for the end of the world you know Yeah well you got to be careful what we say but it sounds like you could almost be running for Parliament to be honest just like that

Where did the welding mask come in? Was it your bin, Laurie, or had you just clambered on top of a nearby one

No, I was working for the council. Oh, that's a relief. Yes. And you happened to have a welding mask lying around

Well, there was one at the workshop at the council yard, so I went and grabbed it, yeah, and just jumped on top of the truck and watched

and it was amazing. It was a perfect day, such a perfect day. It should be tonight as well

shouldn't it? It's kind of overcast here, I think, where I am in Perth

But I think we'll still get quite a bit of it. But it's just the feeling of it

Like your last customer, the last caller said as well, it's the feeling of it

You know, you can feel the temperature drop and it's something you can see

obviously, but through the right devices and also something you can feel as well

You know, and that's what does it for me all the time. So I'm very excited about it tonight. Good

I think you need to have a 12 filter on your welding mask or something to be correct

So I probably shouldn't have said that. It wasn't ash in Northampton. It was a different ash in Liverpool. So just double check anything

before you take my advice, just generally in life. But on the old welding mask thing

it may not be quite as simple as I suggested. Although it worked for you, Paul

back in the day. It worked for you. It is, isn't it? Insignificant. Why is it good to feel insignificant

you think that's the question sorry no you can answer it if you want oh sorry sorry yeah i think

a lot more people especially a lot more people in certain positions in the world need to go outside

and look at this kind of thing because there's so much negativity that going on in the world and

this is such a positive thing and such a physical thing that goes on as well it doesn't happen often

you know they need a good shake taken outside by the scruff of the neck and showing this and helpful

I mean, people who've got their A-level results tomorrow can be reminded of the greater scheme of things

It might be a little bit tricky to cling on to, but how can you be worrying too much about that

when this is all we are? This is what we are. Specs, really, on a sort of celestial map

Grade 12 or above on the old welding mask thing. I've no idea what that means

but lots of people have now used variations on that phrase, so I'm happy to conclude that it's kosher

But do not use anything below grade 12, if you're thinking of looking at the eclipse wearing a welding mask

And, of course, there are stories in the media about people who messed it up last time

And they are real stories. So people who have secured permanent eye damage by watching the 99 solar eclipse

There's one chap in Taunton who did it wearing a borrowed welder's mask

having thought it would provide protection from the sun. So, as I say, I would take that with several, several pinches of salt

Don't send me messages like that again, Ash. You'll get me into trouble. It's 12.47

James O'Brien on LBC. Kate's in Cumbria. She said, I love that question

Why is it good to feel insignificant? And she answers it, because when your ego gets too big

nature will remind you how small you are. I don't know if that's your own words, Kate

but they're beautiful, actually. and those of us who are overburdened with ego on occasion

probably benefit even more from being reminded by nature how small we are

Massive skies do it for me. We get so overwhelmed, Kate goes on, with our own personal worries

that nature always brings me comfort and perspective. And there's got to be a reason, hasn't there

why, generally speaking, the mental health of people who have access to the great outdoors is better than those who don't, generally

and this is a sort of, um, a kind of turbocharged exposure to the great outdoors, isn't it

This is, this is like nature in, in your, in your garden

And the colander thing is, is, you, you, you let the sun go through the colander

so that the dots of light appear on whatever you've got beneath the colander

Ideally a piece of paper, I suppose. Black paper would be better, would it? Or would it make no difference at all

No. White paper is best. I don't know why I'm trying to give a, that's what I'm doing

more advice leave the welders masks out of this entirely pretend i never mentioned welders masks

they're not i just i don't know how you even know what grade it is so do not use all that are you

listening do not use a welder's mask use a colander but you don't put the colander over your head

and look like a sort of count bin face and look at the sun what you do is you hold the colander

above some white paper and the sunlight passes through the holes in the colander so that each

hole that is reflected, or projected actually, each hole that is projected, each dot of light

that is projected onto the paper through the colander becomes a mini eclipse

And so you will watch it happen. The apertures will close, as it were, as the sun

is covered. So the colander might be the best way to do it, although there are various

other sort of DIY blue peter type things that you could deploy instead

Georgina is in Limington in Hampshire. Georgina, are you near the fire there

Sorry, am I? Near the fires. Because you're in the New Forest, aren't you

Yes, not far. No, I'm actually more down towards the Solent. But James, I'm just so..

I've just been diagnosed with AML in June and I thought I was going to be banged up in hospital for the duration

I've got all my kit ready to see this and then I pushed it, you know, I had to go to hospital

I'm just over the moon. I've got this chance to see it. And I've got the right camera

I've got my glasses. And I can't wait for this evening. Gosh

And have you always felt this way? I mean, for people who don't know, you're describing a cube

I've always loved natural things, the stars, the moon, the sky. I can sit and watch the waves, watch the sun

It's just natural. It's just one of those nature's free show, isn't it

Nature's free show. And this is, I'm looking for that phrase, like extra concentrated version of nature

because all the other things you described we can do all the time. And where you are, you're closer to nature than most of us

But this is like a kind of turbocharged exposure. That's right, yes, yes, indeed

I'm just over the moon that I've been given this chance to view it because I thought I was banged up for the duration

but my consultant let me out. Just for this especially? or just generally speaking

Not especially, no, because all my... I've just done the first cycle of chemo

Is it chemo? So it's leukemia that you... Acute myeloid leukemia Yes acute So I know there no cure but that c la vie You know I just got to get on with my life and be positive which is what I doing Well you an inspiration Georgina

I've literally just come back from Southampton Hospital having a bone marrow aspiration

Look it up, look it up. It's not bloody night. Oh, sorry. That's all right. I think on this occasion, we'll give you a free pass on it

But it is, as you say, pretty hideous. and yet here you are, feeling genuine joy and excitement

at the prospect of this evening's event. And I'm looking forward to the future

Because I'm under the best possible, you know, hands I could be at Southampton Hospital

Do you think, and forgive me if this is an indelicate question, but do you think that you would reflect differently

on what you see tonight as a consequence of your diagnosis? Do you think it..

Not at all. Well, there we go. That was a fairly quick answer. No

but thank you so much for the chance to have a little say. Well it's lovely to hear

your voice, it really is and I'm sure everybody listening wishes you the very

very best for that future that you are determined to both embrace and enjoy

but goodness me, I just wondered, the reason I asked that question was because of that sense of wonder at the sheer

scale of things but I suppose that there will be some things

that people are carrying individually that don't really get dwarfed by this event. Thank you Georgina

Anne's in Leicester. Anne, what would you like to say? Oh, hi, James. Well, I went to Cornwall in 1999 with lots of other people

thousands of other people, and most of the country was in cloud

So we were hoping that by being in Inukie, we would get a chance to see it in its full glory

And there must have been 5,000 people on Fistral Beach. And as people have described, it's what you feel rather than what you see

Yeah, go on. So there was a lot of anticipation about whether we'd see anything at all

And I think people forget that. But I think because we were there and I'll describe it in a second

it means I'm even more excited about today because there's no cloud. So we're definitely going to see it

And of course, everybody that saw it 25 years ago is going to want to see it again

and has told everybody about it. Whereas before, I mean, I can't even remember the previous one before that

No, nor can I. Yeah, it must have been... Is it different to be in, because I love that idea of it being neolithic, you know

and sort of monkeys staring at the sky. Is it different when you're in company, do you think, in big company like that

No, I think it's even better because it's more like a festival. I describe to your research, it's like Glastonbury on steroids

or going to see Leather Leppelin in 1969 where you're absolutely in awe

And it was the way that we were waiting and waiting and then as the sun gradually came over

it got dark and cold, which many of the people have already explained

So you felt it. And then what happened there was they were literally all over the headlands

if you know Nicky. The beach was, you know, everybody was crammed on the beach

like you've never seen before in your life. Yeah, that's magic, right? And then the cameras went..

It's almost like, I mean, you said a festival. It's got several meanings, hasn't it

It's almost got a sort of religious or a spiritual feel to it. Exactly. Exactly. Well, they did worship the sun, didn't they

Because it was always, they didn't know to expect it, and suddenly something would happen

But the thing about it was then thousands and thousands of cameras went off all at once

while they were trying to take the, because nobody's talked about the diamond ring

When there's a fall eclipse, what happens is the sun shines behind it, it looks like a diamond ring, because it isn't quite big enough to cover it

The shadow isn't quite big enough to cover the whole thing. And so you get this amazing effect

And it was the comradeship of everybody. And then everybody bought the T-shirt

I've still got my T-shirt that I was there in 1999. And then I speak to other people that didn't make the journey

And of course, they didn't have the same experience because the cloud was so horrible

No, and it should be much happier. I mean, one, I don't hesitate to use the word silver linings

when we've been having such apocalyptic conversations about the climate lately. But it should be clear in most of the UK tonight

in ways that it wasn't when Anne describes her time in Cornwall

And a quick word to old Ashley Northampton, who I unfairly suggested might have made suggestions about welding masks

which should be completely and completely ignored. Ashley, of course, is a celestial navigation teacher himself

It's part of his maritime qualifications. And he also owns a marine sextant, which is designed to look at the sun

But even with the correct kit, he advises that you don't look at the sun

So if you follow me on Blue Sky, you can see the posts I've shared from Ash in Northampton

suggesting what you might do or showing you what he's going to do to make sure that his family can enjoy the eclipse in a very powerful and communal way

If you missed any of today's show, you can listen back on our free Global Player app

or indeed the LBC app, where you can also stay up to date with all the latest news, videos and opinions

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So do download the official LBC app for free from your app store now

Tom will be with you at four. But now on LBC, it's time for Sheila Fogarty

Brief word on the eclipse. Carry on. I fully agree with your caller. I think it was Ash who said it's about feeling it

Yes. I think more than seeing it. Yes. More than seeing the ball of fire in the sky

I'm getting it. Do you remember that you didn't see the 99 one? I just didn't get engaged. I think I did it

What's wrong with you? I did it with the kids. No, I wouldn't even have done it with the kids. They weren't born. I loved it

I loved it. Why? Well, the sun is in the sky. Oh, my, oh, my

Me and Lily Allen. The sun is in the sky. Oh, my, oh, my

And we take it for granted. It keeps us alive. It provides everything

And that moment when it is briefly eclipsed, I know it's not catastrophically eclipsed

Looking under the bonnet of the universe. It is, exactly, yeah. And the sensation and the colour of everything

as it starts to fade. and then the black the sudden darkness when it goes away because it was a total eclipse

of the heart last time when that happens i think it's uh what linda mccartney used to call a soul

photograph wow if people forget their cameras take a soul photograph that she used to say to her kids

and beautiful i think that is a lovely way to think of it if you if you don't have the glasses

and you must not look up unless you're doing it safely i i wouldn't bother i i don't think you i

don't think you miss much if you don't see it no oh i love that right i mean a soul photograph

take your soul photograph later i'm sorry if you're looking at this eclipse through a packet

of cheerios you're getting it wrong yes honestly come on come on sit and feel enjoy it enjoy it

james o'brien on lbc