More drilling during another heatwave would feel mad | James O'Brien - The Whole Show

Three minutes after ten is the time. A very good morning indeed to you

We'll begin, I think. Oh, don't forget the Burnham Optimism Barometer. That's week four and we haven't forgotten it yet

Something must be going a little bit wrong on this programme. We pride ourselves on the speed with which we forget things

But here we go. Week four, the Burnham Optimism Barometer. Do not send in your things yet. Do not send in the things yet

I will open the what do you call, open the jury's, open the betting at ten past ten this

morning. You will send me a mark out of ten regarding how optimistic you are about Andy Burnham

and we will see whether it's gone up, down or stayed the same after three weeks

coming in at eight out of ten. Eight out of ten, the kind of approval ratings that

Prime Ministers can ordinarily only dream of except in the honeymoon period shortly after

they've arrived in Downing Street for the first time. And it may well be that the story I want to talk about

first today will knock a point or two off the score that you were minded to submit

Also coming up on the programme today, we will turn our attention to the death at the weekend

of the Cambridge academic, or the former Cambridge academic professor, Jason Arday

I genuinely can't quite believe how many people who had an awful lot to say about him last week

have absolutely nothing to say about him this week. But we'll do our best to rectify elements of that situation

in the course of this morning's programme. And then, I'm not going to tell you what I'm thinking of doing at 12

because it's technically a motoring topic, but it is tickling me. No, I mean, like, we'll see, all right

Four minutes after 10 is the time. How often do you find yourself thinking

or hear someone else saying something that is so obvious you can't quite believe that it's resonating with you

I'd like to think it happens occasionally when you've got this program on

And I'd like to think it happens very occasionally when you've got this program on

And it's such a silly thing that we... I think it was in the week before last

towards the end of the week before last, and we were trying to find a way

into the conversations about climate that would feel a little fresher, perhaps, than usual

and would reflect the fact that our feelings change as the facts in front of us change

And facts, sadly, are not confined to flowcharts and graphs and temperature records

facts can sometimes be the evidence of your own eyes and ears

I'm slightly obsessed with the way in which the post office scandal story

only really captured the public imagination when it was turned into a brilliant television drama

And because a newspaper, the print media, didn't bear any responsibility at all for the scandal

they could pile in on it in ways that were not unprecedented

but which were very much out of the ordinary. You don't get the same thing with television dramas

about phone hacking, for example, or other areas like the water companies

where the people that own the newspapers probably got quite large shareholdings

in the water companies as well, so they're not really minded to go in as hard

as they were with the post office drama. And it was only when it was turned into an entertainment

that it actually achieved what journalism had failed to achieve. The journalism was there. Private Eye in particular had led the field on the post office scandals

But until that TV show started, Mr. Bates versus the post office, it didn't land with the majority of the country

And I found myself thinking the same thing about climate, actually, oddly

You don't need a drama. For me, that don't look up thing worked brilliantly, as you know, the Leonardo DiCaprio film

because I love allegories and ogies and metaphors, and it just helped me understand human nature

rather than sitting in judgment on people who you may not agree with

You were helped to an understanding of them. And the thing that really hit me a couple of weeks ago

when I was knitting together all of these different things with you was that we really don't like being frightened

That's the phrase. That's the catchphrase. That's the one I'm thinking of as something that is obvious

It's like, yeah, you're not going to win any prizes for that, mate. but at the same time, when you hear it

it kind of resonates a little bit. We do not like being frightened, not properly frightened

We like horror films, some of us. We like roller coasters. We like managed fear, controlled fear

The things that perhaps thrill us the most are the things that make us wonder

whether the fear is actually controlled. I remember a film called Blair Witch Project

that was absolutely terrifying because even though you were sitting in a cinema

and you knew it was manufactured and you knew it was confected, something about the way the film was made

made you think that it was happening and that it was real. That's what you do, isn't it, when you're watching films

You suspend disbelief. And as a kid, I was more frightened by a film called The Devil Rides Out

which I think had Peter Cushing in it and was based on a Dennis Wheatley novel

And the devil appeared in the rearview mirror of a car. It just terrified me

I went to sleep that night with my rosary under my pillow

like a good little Catholic boy who should not have been watching television that late at night

but who had, no doubt, brought it up in confession later. Eight minutes after 10 is the time

So fear was the thing, right? We don't like being frightened. And with climate change, we actually have a choice

I know that some people may not like this, but we actually have a choice with regard to whether or not we are going to let ourselves be frightened

you can feel fear either in your head or your tummy and if you're feeling it in your head

or or you can get it out of your tummy then you've got a choice so some stories get you in the tummy

and indeed we've already mentioned jason our day once this morning that that's a story that sits

in in your tummy or it sits in my tummy anyway i does not think i can do about that i can't get it

out of my tummy if it was in my head i could rationalize my way out of it i could kind of

talk myself into a position. So if the fear of the climate is in my head, I can ignore it

Once it gets into my tummy, then I can't. And I think that is, I have no therapeutic training. I

want to make that absolutely clear, except as a client of two very good therapists over the years

But I think that that explains the difference in caller that we get, or the difference in response

that we have. I don't think we need to pay much attention anymore to the people

who insist that there's no such thing or the people who insist that it's

all perfectly cyclical and normal or the reason why the fires spread

like literally wildfire is because of the people who started them as opposed to what's been done

to the terrain in which they spread like literally wildfire. I think the difference is

whether you feel it in your tummy or your head. Isn't it? Oh, yeah, some mad stuff sits in your tummy. Like football can sit in your tummy, or can

sit in mine, it probably doesn't sit in everybody. Some really mad stuff can sit in your tummy

Exam results right Some kids it so so stuck in their tummy Other kids it in their head it in their mind For most people I suspect there a little bit of both And you can um It Christopher Lee not Peter Cushing in The Devil Rides Out

What an erudite audience I have. But you have that... You recognise what I'm describing, right

I don't know what the last thing you felt in your tummy was that had absolutely nothing to do with you personally

Terror attacks. Terror attacks always start in my tummy. Whether it is the Ariana Grande concert in Manchester

or the October the 7th terror attack or the continuing reports from the West Bank and Gaza

of the ongoing carnage and murder there. These things sit in my tummy

I don't know why. I can read other stories about other parts of the world that don't quite resonate in the same way

They'll be in my tummy, but they'll be in my head as well. And I want to know partly where you are now

when I tell you that the Prime Minister is minded to approve the substantial jackdaw gas field

in the North Sea after coming under pressure to boost UK energy

supplies. Because if that, if your response to that is in your tummy

you're going to be frightened and outraged, yeah? If it's in your head, you're

going to have a slightly different response. And I want both today. I want both today

I am now feeling climate change in my stomach in ways that I don't think I was doing until this

summer. I'm embarrassed by that but not enormously embarrassed by it. I can't control it

I've been exposed to some fascinating insights and educational journalism and amazing callers to this program over the years

And I couldn't work out what the difference was between us. I'd say to you sometimes, why are you feeling that so keenly

And I know you're right, but I'm not feeling it in quite the same way. And the answer is it wasn't in my tummy

It is now. It's not 100%, but it's there in my tummy. And the problem with that is that in a way we're describing the difference between facts and feelings

Or we're describing the difference between emotion or emotive positions and intellectual positions

And once that line gets blurred, once it's in your tummy, but also in your head

then it's really hard to know what to think. Because where does what you're feeling stop and what you're thinking start

13 minutes after 10 is the time Andy Burnham is minded to approve the substantial

Jackdaw gas field in the North Sea after coming under pressure to boost UK energy supplies

two things I know the unions have been exercising absolutely epic influence on the Labour government

over this issue because that is their job, right? that is their absolute raison d'etre

their job is not oddly to, well no, not oddly, there's nothing odd about it

If you're paying your subs to a trade union, that trade unionist's job is to protect you

To protect your job. So if you work in the oil industry, or you work in gas up in Scotland

and you are paying your subs to your union, it has nothing to do with anything other than your retention of your job

We talk a lot about billionaires and plutocrats making all the money out of fossil fuels

And we forget, and I forget, that actually there'll be hundreds of thousands

tens of thousands, I'm not sure which, around the world, possibly millions of people

whose livelihoods depend upon fossil fuels. And they pay people to represent them

The oligarchs and the plutocrats pay lobbyists to spread misinformation and disinformation

and to rubbish enemies and to silence criticism. And the ordinary people, the ordinary workers

who don't feel it in their tummy until they do, they feel it in their head

because it's about putting food on the table and feeding their kids and paying their way and paying their bills

they pay their subs to their trade union to make sure they'll have a job this time next year

And if your job is on a gas field, then you will be, I suspect, mostly delighted

that Andy Burnham is currently minded to approve a new Jackdaw gas field

a new gas field in the North Sea. One quote in the middle of the story

is that it could be the difference between life and death for the industry. So it's often portrayed as a lefty position to care about the climate

which is part of what the lobbyists are being paid to do. But there's nothing more left-wing than a trade union

There's nothing more left-wing than collective bargaining and collective action. There's nothing more left-wing in this country than the trade union movement

and that is in favour of opening up this gas field. So it's even detached from binary debate, this issue

It's even detached from footballification. Tories are pro anything that makes money

regardless of what it does to human beings, the environment or the planet

Labour, historically, prioritising the welfare of people over the protection of wealth

But this story, as I hope I've managed to explain to you, is about the protection of people as well

specifically trade union members, and then the rest of us, because high energy prices affect all of us

ministers are understood to fear that approving two large fossil fuel projects

in the middle of a heat wave and the Daily Telegraph still can't help itself

blamed by many on climate change blamed by many on climate change

I don't know what historians of the future are going to have to say about our little period

in charge of this planet but I think that's going to be pertinent, isn't it

we're living in some sort of global Gobi desert and they say even in 2026, after the hottest summer on record

approaching the end of August and reading about a sixth heatwave being on its way

the Daily Telegraph shows to report that it was, quotes, believed by many that the heatwave was caused by climate change

They're still going to go ahead with it. One of them at their report today is not the other one

And I just want you to tell me how you respond to this. that's all and you know challenge my ysis you're always welcome to do that

you know you are but um i think i'm right about this i think the tension between

the trade union movement and the uh what you might call the environmental wing of the labour party is

very real and quite considerable i think that distinction between the lobbyists spreading

misinformation and disinformation to keep the money coming in and the workers who are earning

a crust on oil rigs and gas fields, being worried about losing their

crust. I read one story about how all the jobs that are being created in what we call the green energy

sector, the average income is not as high as it is in the fossil fuel sector

Now, I don't know whether that's true because that is information that has arrived

in our media in an ecosystem that is dominated by the lobbyists who are paid a fortune, often secretly

They sometimes call themselves think tanks and appear on television pretending to be

academics and qualified. but that kind of misinformation finds its way into our media all the time so i don't even know

whether that's true but let's for the sake of argument pretend that it is true and the fact is

that there are thousands of people mostly in scotland whose jobs and incomes are going to be

threatened by the move away from fossil fuels you can just tell them to suck it up but i want you to tell me what this story does to you andy burnham let say is going to or is certainly minded to open a new gas field in the North Sea This is in the middle of the hottest summer we have ever known

but the coldest summer we will ever know, moving forward. This is as cool as it gets

But maybe there's some wriggle room there, in, like, tiny percentages of degrees

But this will be the coolest summer that the UK has ever seen. If you were born this year, this is your coolest summer ever, lads

because if we hit net zero, it just stays the same. I don't think the temperature starts coming down again, does it

As I say, I'm not scientifically qualified. 0345 6060 973. 80 minutes after 10, I'm going to do the Burnham Optimism Barometer

over the course of this hydration break. All right? So you now text me a number between 1 and 10

which denotes how optimistic you currently feel about the current Prime Minister, Andy Burnham

So the Burnham Optimism Barometer is now open. James O'Brien on LBC

It is the hottest summer we've ever known, and the Prime Minister, who has fairly good green credentials

is minded to open a new gas field in the North Sea. It can't be as binary as it first appears

Tell me something intelligent. Say something nuanced to me. Make me understand why this isn't as mad as it first appears to be

or indeed confirm that it is. 21 minutes after 10 is the time

The Burnham Optimism Barometer is now closed and Finlay is on the line from Dumfries

Finlay, what would you like to say? Hi there. Hello, Finlay. It's worth saying I'm part of Unite the Union

which is one of the biggest unions in the UK that cover big industrial sectors

I'm in the aerospace sector personally. I'm also a member of the Labour Party

This subject really has frustrated me, both in my union and... For the reasons that I've tried to articulate

Yeah, well, I think, you know, I can see... I think the biggest frustration for me

is that people's very real concerns around economic difficulties... Yeah, people in the sector

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I've been at the Unite the Union Annual Policy Conference

and helped kind of contribute to a policy looking at phasing out North Sea oil and gas

very much written in a way that's saying, well, actually, there's a massive opportunity

in transitioning away from fossil fuels. There's probably a massive economic opportunity

for the UK, but massively for workers. And it's in all of the downstream industries

that will be created. You know, one part of this is extracting fossil fuels

from the ground. But the other big part of the equation is our reliance on fossil fuels

for heating our homes, for driving our cars, for flying our aircraft, and actually moving away from fossil fuels and reducing our demand

which will mean that we need to extract less. We're not going anywhere near as fast as we need to go in those areas

They will all make our lives cheaper, but they'll also create lots of jobs for workers

But this is real chicken and egg territory, isn't it? Because if we're not going fast enough, then we still need gas

And if we still need gas, why on earth would we get it from, I don't know Qatar or Norway

when we could be getting it from our own doorstep Exactly and that's why

you know like and Andy Burnham I think said something along those lines of

well if we're going to use we will be using fossil fuels for lots

more decades but the reality is we cannot be using fossil fuels

and we need policies from government from his government to be put in place

much more rapidly to move us away from gas boilers in our homes from petrol and diesel on our roads

from jet fuel and aircraft. And the government can introduce policies. You know that fossil fuel companies made extreme excess profits

both this year and previous years because of the Ukraine conflict. And we failed to tax those companies, take out those profits

and reinvest them into the industries of the future that will create far more jobs for workers

But this is the thing, Finlay. I mean, you're perfectly positioned on this

because as you say your union is a champion of the workers in the sector and therefore wants this

gas field to be open that's the official position of unite the union yeah and as a labor party member

you can speak powerfully about the wisdom and the necessity of windfall taxes and and making sure

that the people making the most money are giving as much of it as um as is possible back to the

country in which they're making all that money or the country from which they're making all that

money, but we're talking about I don't know when, do you know when

Jack Dole would come online, roughly? You're testing me there, I'm not sure exactly

No, okay, but we're talking... Yeah, and a point at which we will still need gas

For good or for ill. Unless you're going to argue that Andy Burnham should be

turning up the speed of decoupling from the fossil fuel industry, in which case it is a slightly

different conversation from the one that we're having. We will still need gas

And if it's going to come from somewhere, why not come from here? Well, I think that..

Is that defeatist? Is that defeatist? Should a politician be standing up and saying

we will, this is kind of where Ed Miliband was going, we are heading for net zero. We cannot head towards net zero

if we're opening up a new fossil fuel resource. Can we? Well, it's a collective thing

So it's a collective thing globally. And I think part of this is like, it's the UK doing it

but also it's, we need to be going to, you know, the COP conference at the end of this year

making that case globally to all of the countries around the world

So the part of that's leadership. But I do think there's a massive failure if you make that

argument and then you fail to then look around and then start implementing

the policies as quickly as possible to move us away from fossil fuel, which is where

the real problem is. We could close all of our North Sea oil and gas and still use lots

of fossil fuel and import it from elsewhere. and actually we do import a lot of what we use right and that's what financially cripples us

but the much more important part is really the demand side and making sure we rapidly reduce

demand as quickly as possible and and do you know max while you were talking has been in touch say

if burnham was smart he would have announced this in tandem with a big environmental package to

supercharge net zero so does that could that work with you and also i think i'm i've slightly

misrepresented the facts the licenses are sold this is wouldn't make us like norway it would

it would still be the companies that we're buying gas from other countries from that we'd be buying it from even if it came out of the North Sea

if my understanding is correct. So there's a slightly sort of right-wing fetishisation

about pretending that it's ours and all we need to do is get it out of the ground. It wouldn't work like that and it wouldn't bring down prices

No, absolutely not. That's missing from the debate. I need a better understanding of that

which is not a criticism of you. It's a call to answer for someone else to ring in. I mean, quite simply, though, just to explain that

you take fossil fuel out of the ground and it goes straight onto the global market. You then have to buy it from a global market

So it makes no difference whatsoever if you've extracted it. I suppose you get some tax receipts from the extraction part

But that is exactly where we... It goes on to the international market at international prices

So the idea that by getting it out of the sea of Scotland

we somehow get ourselves a little loophole or a little hack or a bargain is just for the birds It categorically and permanently not true Could I make a little point on this point You can It a really complicated issue with lots to consider

And talking about this in trade unions and in the media and in politics

we need to inform people and allow people to understand what is a complex topic with complex solutions

One of our proposals is that we use workers' assemblies. So you've heard of citizens' assemblies

which get citizens together and they look at how we decarbonise. The problem is workers feel excluded from that

They feel like often policies are done to them. They are suspicious of large companies, vested interests

and the government as they should be. But also, they are actually failing to make a plan themselves

So something that frustrates me about our union is we're saying no ban without a plan

but then we aren't creating a plan for how to transition the North Sea to offshore wind

and a bunch of other things that we keep doing at Grangemouth Refinery. So I'd just like us to think we actually need to do trade union and politics differently

and I think that's a big part of this. Well, I mean, crikey, if I thought that you were being a bit too long-termist

for our purposes this morning in the context of actually extracting gas

then changing the entire nature of the discourse around trade unions and politics in this country

is an even bigger mountain to climb. But I think you're probably right. I do increasingly think that this is kind of what Andy Burnham brought in

a sense that it doesn't have to be done like that, just because that's how it's always been done

We talked about this a couple of weeks ago, didn't we? We're trying to just pin down what Burnhamism was, if there was such a thing

And Stockport, oddly, being a wonderful example of how, yes, you can actually regenerate a town centre, for example

You don't have to sit with managed decline or accept the inevitability of downward momentum

And he's bringing it to other areas as well. But on this one, he's in danger of looking like a man trying to have his cake and eat it

polishing his environmental credentials while opening a fossil fuel resource, opening a gas field in the North Sea

I don't know. We'll see. It's coming up to half past ten. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC

I'll have the results of the Burnham Optimism Barometer, I think, probably after this

or certainly before the end of this hour. It will be interesting to see whether or not this story or any other stories

have knocked a point or two off the satisfaction rating that we will be pursuing and recording

using incredibly scientific methods. We've got exclusive software that's been supplied to us

by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. It's in beta stage. I'm lying

It's just Belinda counting texts. But nonetheless, we'll have the results shortly

James O'Brien on LBC. It is 33 minutes after 10, and the Burnham Optimism Barometer results are in week four

I always feel I should do that in a big brother voice. Week four. Week four of the Burnham Optimism

I'll do the voice later. It's a shocker, this one, lads. Seriously, you're not going to believe it

if I actually remember to tell you, which I'm not going to do just yet, because we all enjoy a little bit of tension

It's fear that we don't like, unmanageable or uncontrollable fear. Our brain is a fascinating place

It can whisper to us while we are terrified of something that we're watching on a screen

It can whisper to us, don't worry, you're all right, even though we're screaming and jumping and

panicking. It's managed panic somehow. It's really strange once you start thinking about this stuff. I'm sure

PhDs have been written about it. But the stuff we can't control

with, stuff we can't manage, is a heck of a lot easier to ignore. Because that's the voice inside of you saying there's nothing you can do

about this, at which point you go, well, there's no point being frightened then. So you can turn off

that fear. I don't know whether the fear in my stomach, you believe

how many complaints I got about using the word tummy repeatedly. Everything from it's making me feel things in my stomach right through to it's

infantilising. Is that not what people call it? Is that just... Anyway, stomach. I'll say stomach

from now on because I'm nothing if not susceptible to your constructive criticisms. Feeling climate

change in my stomach for the first time ever. I know I should have felt it sooner, but don't worry

an awful lot of people still don't. I don't know if it'll stay. Come Christmas, chestnuts roasting

on the open fire? Will I still feel in my gut a visceral fear of what we are doing to the planet

and the failure to properly address it? Or will it change as a consequence perhaps of a Prime

Minister for whom I have high hopes? Reportedly buckling to trade union pressure is one reading

of it and opening another gas field. The other point of course is that we are still reliant on

gas and will be for the near future. And if we learnt anything from Vladimir Putin's illegal

invasion of Ukraine, we learnt that we need to have other sources. Even if we're paying the same

money for the gas that we use on the international market, we don't want to be subject to Vladimir

Putin's will when it comes to getting gas into this country. So that's an argument. It's a proper

argument you have to address if, like me, your gut instinct is

this can't possibly be the right thing to do. Just look how hot it is

10.35 is the time. Gary is in Egberth in Liverpool. Egberth. Gary, what's on your mind

Morning, James. I was listening to you last week and this morning and

trying to disseminate a lot of the words that you're coming out with and a lot of feelings

that you're coming out with. And I'd just like to make three points which will lead on to the

Burnham debate at the minute. Firstly, you talk about, you know, When we talk about net zero, it's an arbitrary figure that's been invented by scientists, politicians around the world

And when we get to net zero in the UK, things will be the same

They won't change for hundreds of years after because what we're doing... It's not arbitrary. It simply means that we won't be putting more greenhouse gases into the air than we're taking out

Well, yes and no, because you have the situation where you've got countries which are playing with net zero

No, I know, but as a domestic political goal, it's not arbitrary

Well, no, it's arbitrary in the sense that we have defined as 2050. We could have made it 2040

No, you can say the date is... No, you didn't... I'm not having a row with you. I just remembered a lot of people listening don't follow this stuff as closely as you do

So, yeah, you can say that the date is arbitrary, but not that the two words that you used when you said arbitrary

net zero is arbitrary. That's not what you meant. Well, let me give an example

So up until recently, the UK had three government definitions for net zero

and so that made it complicated. The one we're working on today, let's not get bogged down in this

the date is arbitrary, it's decided by human beings, the date by which we will achieve net zero

Domestic and global are obviously two different propositions, but the meaning of the words net zero is simply

putting no more greenhouse gases into the air than we take out. Point two

Well, it's actually 90%. it's a 90% level, not 100% level. But point two is that we don't really feel climate change

We can't smell it. We can't taste it. We can't really see it

And that's where it's not deep and durable enough in our lives for people to actually want to act about it

So, you know, the sense of things that we do seem OK

We drive. We fly. We use fertilizers. They seem all all right for us because it has no immediate consequence

on the way we live and feel. And even in the context of this heatwave, the fifth heatwave, just come to an end, the sixth heatwave on the horizon

the relationship... ...between this sort of slightly nebulous term, climate change, and for example, driving your car is not strong enough in people's minds

What's the animal that you've got in the background? It was a seagull outside my office window

Just checking, that's fine. I didn't know whether you'd taken it under duress or something like that

So, come on. Yes, I mean, that's the problem. So, you end up, so, you know, it's horrific what we're seeing around the world with the forest fires and the floods, etc

But, you know, in human nature, what we do is we look at it and we see it

We see it on the TV mainly. And we hear it on the radio. And then we go, that's really bad, that's awful

And then we move on to the next thing. And then we throw another shrimp on the barbie. Let me nudge you, if I may

towards Andy Burnham being minded to open a new gas field in the North Sea

Because a lot of what you're saying, respectfully, we've talked about a lot in recent weeks

I just want to nudge you towards today's news, if I can. Well, I mean, I think, you know

it's an easy solution to a political situation where, you know, you'll get a lot of flack from the right

and from the trade unions before. It's not the answer. You cannot sit back and say

oh, we'll just put a little bit more carbon into the atmosphere and everything will be okay and we carry on as normal

You know, there has to be some type of impetus, some type of... Is the argument not..

This is the same amount of carbon that we'll be putting into the atmosphere, but we will be, and we won't save any money

by buying it from the people who hold the North Sea licenses but we won't be vulnerable to world events

like Vladimir Putin invading Ukraine or the Strait of Hormuz being closed

as a consequence of Donald Trump's intergalactic idiocy. Yeah, I mean... No, you've got to respond to that

That's a fair point, no? No, it is a fair point but it's the markets that you mentioned before about, you know

It's not a Norway model that we have here. It's a private sector model based in the UK

And this is the behest of the markets around the world. Oil prices going down, gas prices going down

If Burnham had any sense, and I know there's been talk about this before, but he should try and decouple the electricity price from the gas price

And that is a big difference because you've got, you know, we speak to energy companies around the country

and they are making millions out of their renewables but are being paid the gas price, the total energy price

And if you can decouple that and do what they do in France and in Spain

where the price for electricity in the summer is like 80 times less than ours on the market

that's because they've got a decoupled system from gas and electricity. And we don't have that

And I know there's been talk about it, but there's been pushback from the right and from the oil and gas companies

and that then puts it in a sticky wicket because they've got a bigger voice than most people in my position

and yours who fight will not give up thinking about how can we amend and change these things going forward

Yeah, so, I mean, the problem I have is the same problem

that I have with the last lad, is that, yes, you're obviously opposed to the reopening of the gas field

and in my guts, so am I. Well, not the reopening, the opening of the gas field

but it will meet a need that is going to be in place

regardless of what happens in the next 10 years. And we can all pray to whatever God we believe in

that net zero edges ever close, but it isn't going to. We can't suddenly turn off energy supplies

and switch them to something else overnight. It's a slow, it's an incremental process

which is why they set deadlines, if you prefer, arbitrarily, like 2050

And everything you've said is ignoring the fact that we will, whether we open this or not, continue to use gas

So why not use gas whose supply is more secure than the gas we're currently using

Because, first of all, there are two fields in the North Sea. One is not a gas field, one is an oil field

I'm talking about Jack. Generally, I'm sorry, Jack, OK. Well, it's not an excuse just to say

let's just carry on in the next 10 years. No, I know, but what's the alternative? The alternative is for us to use less gas

But the government had in their manifesto to be... I sense you're dodging the point that I'm making

No, no, James. So what do we use instead of the gas that we're going to use

Well, we reuse renewables. But that's moving. That's already moving fast. That's already..

So if it's moving fast, why do we need it then? Why do we need the gas? Well, you know that

Because we haven't got enough renewables to meet the needs of the country

We will need gas for the... I mean, one of us has been a bit dense

And I'm happy to accept at this stage in proceedings, Gary, that it's me. But I don't think it is

Joe's in Sheffield. Joe, what would you like to say? Hiya. Um, tad nervous, so just bear with me

It's only me. It's only me, Joe. It's only you. It's only millions of people on the radio

One and a half million, mate. Let's not get carried away. Go on, fill your boots. You'll be fine, I promise. You'll be fine

So basically, I mean, I've been, you know, concerned about climate change since I was a child

36 now. I'm sat here with my soon-to-be one-year-old boy. that makes the fear even more pertinent

in the sort of direction that it's going. And ordinarily, I would be deeply opposed to, you know

any sort of new oil and gas, etc. It's the wrong direction

But there is, just because you're asking for nuanced opinions, there is..

It'll never catch on, Joan. It'll never catch on. There's a scenario in which I could get behind the idea

And that is if, and I know you've already said that that's not how it would be because the way that the system currently works means that it wouldn't be that way

But if it was to be done as a sort of nationalized or semi-nationalized oil and gas industry that was to open the new field and it was to pump the money, you know, 90% of profit into some sort of sovereign wealth fund, a portion of that was ring-fenced specifically to turbocharge the green transition

The rest of it was ring-fenced to go into public infrastructure that badly needs funding, etc., etc

In a sort of Norway-esque model, but I would argue for more national involvement than Norway has

I think Norway owns about 67% of the major oil company that takes the oil out in Norway, which gives them majority shareholders

And that's the bottom line of why it can't happen here. Because the government doesn't own it

I think it's the same company that has got the licences for exploring Jackdaw and Rosebank

which would be the oil field, well, gas and oil. It's the same company, and they own it

That's where I disagree, then. But they do. You can say they shouldn't, but they do

So don't give them a licence. Then you're a communist. Ah, maybe

I mean, it is. Well, we don't. The North Sea tax receipts that we receive

are already factored into current public spending. They're not saved for future generations

like a sovereign wealth fund would be. And also, we're running a massive fiscal deficit

in this country at the moment. So it would be like having an enormous overdraft

and a savings account with less in it than your overdraft was. Do you see what I mean

These are the reasons why. So, yeah, so then you can decouple energy

from other elements of our economy and it would involve re currently privatised companies and that costs a bloody fortune mate Well does it cost a fortune

Does it cost more than continuing to pay their shareholders in perpetuity

You are a communist. Listen, I'm saying this. No, you are, because you're talking about confiscating assets

from private companies and re-national. Yeah, well, okay, there are some elements of my thinking that may..

I like your thinking. I don't disagree with you, but you'll never get it past. Enter into the end diagram of communism

but there's a whole bunch of what comes under communism that I also don't agree with

So I would not personally label myself as a communist. No, nor would I. Just to be clear, it was a banter, mate

It was light-hearted repartee. But, I mean, with that tiny little cardinal of..

Because I'd be the same. I don't see why we can't confiscate some of these. I'd start with the water companies

Well, exactly. And you'd put the energy companies in exactly the same position

but I suppose the first comeback would be how would you feel if they nationalised your house

or how would you feel if anyone started talking about... I'd be over the moon if they nationalised my house because I'm in a private rental and my landlord's a nightmare

So I would be absolutely over the moon. I don't know what you were nervous about. You've done me like a kipper

I mean, yes, like you said, the water companies, that needs dealing with

Gas and oil, that needs dealing with. Like, we cannot continue in this country

to blame immigrants for everything whilst bleeding money to corporate shareholders at every single turn

And the tension about the workers, you've managed to negotiate perfectly, because if all of the profit were somehow to be redirected towards the Treasury

and there'll be tax receipts, remember, which is probably part of Andy Burnham's thinking

so you're going to get tax receipts on oil that's come out of the North Sea that you're not going to get on oil that's come out of Norway or beyond

But if it was all going into the Treasury, and the workers were keeping their jobs

you could live with the environmental impact in the short term because of the positivity of the economic impact

Well, yes, and at the end of the day, we are still burning oil and gas. It's just that we're importing that oil and gas

No, I know this point I've made with previous, I think both previous callers

in that we are simply just filling a gap that has already got gas in it

And you can argue, well, it shouldn't have gas in it, but my understanding is that, yeah, absolutely it shouldn't, lads, but it does

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And, you know, if the profits from new oil and gas were directly ring-fenced for the green transition

then you would have no immediate additional short-term impact and you would be getting faster towards net zero in the future

So in the long term, it would be a benefit in terms of carbon emissions

In the short term, it makes no difference in terms of carbon emissions

and the country needs money. Strong. The only downside of this is that it would involve stealing the lunch

of some of the most powerful and wealthy operators on the planet. And, in fact, some of the most powerful and wealthy lobbies

in the history of humanity. Well, yes, which is the issue. But at the end of the day, we've had Andy Burnham and..

Oh, go on. No, but at the end of the day, I think you're going to say, at the end of the day, we keep talking about how Andy Burnham

is determined to do things differently and not to accept that just because we've never tried this before, we wouldn't try it again

I mean, the history of renationalization is far from uncontroversial and indeed far, but that's down to human beings quite often, as opposed to the principle of renationalization

Sometimes the people who have done it have been less than honest. But yeah, I mean, if you're looking at this story and thinking, well, why can't we own it

And then you think, well, you can't own it. Of course you can't. then I'm afraid Norway is a whopping great challenge

to your preconceptions and prejudices. As Joe rather brilliant. I don't know what you were nervous about

as he's brilliantly articulated. 10.49 is the time. James O'Brien on LBC

It's 10.52. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. A simple question, but as you say

not necessarily simple answers. I love this message from James, another James

Have you noticed the correlation between the callers who say they're nervous when they call in James

and the ones who then end up talking the most sense? there's a lot to be said for self-doubt

isn't there just James if I ever develop any I'll let you know I'm kind of joking

of course I'm joking don't look at me like that Keith you're right it is

even rarer for a man to do it as well but very often the person

who expresses nerves at the outset turns out to be among the best contributors

of the day and I mention that only to encourage you to ring in if you think

it's not your thing it's not something that you're normally likely to do

10.53 is the time. When do you want the results of the Burnham Optimism Barometer? Do you want them

now, or do you want them immediately after the 11 o'clock news? Because you can have

too much of a good thing. You can have too much tension, too much teasing, hooking

without delivering. Shall I do them now, or shall I do them just... I'm going to do them

just after the 11 o'clock news. Well, no, because I'll forget. I'll do them now. Right, are you ready

We've got any music yet, Keith? No? I'll do them... Imagine if Emily

Maitlis had come up with this idea. It'd probably have its own studio by now. You'd have..

I don't know, we'd get Dan Snow in to emulate his late... Not to emulate his dad, Peter, and we'd have a swing-o-meter

we'd have all sorts of things. It's just me here. Belinda's counted all the texts

and the Burnham Optimism Barometer currently stands at... Can we even have a drumroll? Have we got a drumroll

No? Okay. Emily Maitlis would have a studio, wouldn't she? This was her idea

On the news that she'd actually have a live drummer, and she'd probably have..

Who's the most famous drummer in the world? Ringo Starr's still alive. She'd probably have Ringo Starr in the studio

doing a drumroll for her announcement of the Burnham Optimism Barometer, if it would have been on the newsagents

But here it is. Nine. It's gone up. So three weeks at eight

Eight, eight, eight. And now it's gone up to nine, which might mean that we're becoming

a slightly self-selecting class. Because I think mine has probably stayed around where it was last week

I can't see much reason why it would have gone up. And you know if things carry on like this, we're going to have to end up turning it into a phone-in, aren't we

Why has your Burnham Optimism Barometer score changed this week? Why has it gone up or down

03456060973? Wyns in Horsham. Wyn, what would you like to say? Good morning, James. Hello

Yes, after your previous text, I think I'll say I'm nervous. Good. Very wise. You'll be brilliant

The other thing I'll say is that I would have given Burnham a 6 today

Fair enough. I don't want you to start a new craze. It is a very self-contained and ring-fenced phenomenon

the Burnham Optimism Barometer. So that is the final contribution. Until next week, Wyn, when you must remember to text in your score

But go on, what made you pick up the phone? I decided to pick up the phone

I'm probably a bit older than a lot of your callers. So the minor strike of 84 was quite etched in my memory

I was a member of the Labour Party then. And I remember how the party really made a mistake

We got the mining industry at that time. If you looked at it rationally, at least half the pits were getting worked out

It was costing more and more to get the coal out. The logical thing is they needed to be closed

There were viable pits but because we got into the situation where we backed the workers which is the right thing to do obviously and also the workers you know the miners were led at that time by Arthur Scargo who was very vocal

had a lot of support on the left, particularly on the left of the Labour Party

We, you know, we went all out to back the NUM. um now because of the the emotional the emotional heft of supporting the minor the minor minor yeah

i can explain how that went and it wasn't just within the labor party um tom i was actually uh

committee of the labor party in your neck of the woods in wire forest oh really and

yeah it's the press offices believe it or not you probably knew my dad

I doubt it. I only got as far as sending things to the Chidamins to shuttle

Oh, OK. Well, he did some shifts there, actually, at the end of his career, just because he was getting so bored

But he was the Midlands correspondent on the Daily Telegraph at the time. So the miners' strike in our house was very much a real and present phenomenon

constant, and I hardly saw him for a year in 84. But anyway, crack on, Wyn. Yes, so officially the party supported

but there was this tension between the leadership and Arthur Scargill. things Arthur Skagel was saying

that you know, there had been an election the year before Spassia had won landslide

a lot of us felt that you've got to accept that, you can't

now try to have industrial action to bring down the government, that's not how we do

things in this country, so there was that tension at the leadership level but at the ground level, when it came

to doing things like porting the miners you know, sort of buckets

out at the fire stations and starboard and that sort of stuff

And especially when Christmas came around, when we had a sort of campaign

to, you know, get together toys for the miners' kids, that was immensely successful

So there was a lot of emotional support for the actual miners, not for the leadership

They never had a secret ballot either, did they? That was another major problem

Yes, that was another major problem. I was in a union where ballots for strikes was part of our policy so we we always did that yeah so so just to knit the

two together because i don't want to run out of time we you see history repeating itself with a

sort of blindness i see i see history repeating itself because in the end mining jobs weren't

saved lost the opportunity to manage the decline in the mining industry um it all happened so quickly

even the viable pits went so it happened so quickly so there's no chance for getting extra

you know getting new employment into mining villages helping those miners who wanted to

stay to relocate to the viable mines everything to sort of make the human cost of closing the

coal industry down less than what it was and we know that that's such a powerful point and i mean

the major difference being that the trades unions and the owners now are speaking as one so the

chief executive of adura which is developing rose bank and jackdaw said said last night together

they can provide more domestically produced energy support high quality jobs and apprenticeships

generate substantial economic activity and tax revenues and give the uk's world-class energy

supply chain confidence for the future up to which your response is yeah that's all well and good but

the direction of traffic is towards is towards next zero so what's the point of being an apprentice

in an industry that is going to be over in 30 years or 20 years

It's not just that, but our fields in the North Sea and off Scotland are depleting

This isn't a lifetime's job left there anymore. No, and so they're talking about keeping the money flowing

for the short term. Well, it is, and you're going to miss the opportunity

to change that decline. And a lot of those people, if you've been working out on an oil rig

You've got half the skills needed to go on offshore wind farms anyway

You're used to that environment. That's your engineering. So there should be a lot more stability about managing the decline of the industry

in a way that the workers benefit rather than just... This is a brilliant call

You were right. I don't know whether you were nervous or not, Wyn, or whether or not you were just jumping on that I'm nervous bandwagon

because they always turn out to be the best calls. but I will be reflecting on a lot of the things that you've said

and indeed refreshing my memory on some of the parallels that you draw

not least the fact that the ultimate redundancy of the entire mining industry

was absolutely intrinsic to the mismanagement of the issue by not just the NUM but by much of the labour movement

And of course a lot of these conversations are still conducted as if the ultimate redundancy of the fossil fuel industry

is not baked into the survival of the planet, which is why I leave you, we'll go back to where we began

which is the fact that even now, one newspaper today reports ministers are understood to fear

that approving two large fossil fuel projects in the middle of a heatwave, wait for it

blamed by many on climate change, as opposed to blamed by science

or blamed by everybody with any qualifications worth the paper that they're printed on in this field

11.01 is the time. Thank you, Wyn. Great stuff. It is... It's just gone, 11 o'clock

In the next hour of the programme, we will, with heavy hearts, I think, turn our attention to the death at the weekend of the academic Jason R. Day

And it's always a little bit glib, isn't it, to wonder what lessons will be learned

or indeed what lessons should be learned, because they're never the same thing

But I think the very, very least we can do is talk about it together

James O'Brien on LBC. It is five minutes after 11 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

I'd read a couple of texts before we get into this horrible story in more detail

Here's one from Matt. Can we also talk about the vile doubling down and trolling from vampires like

and then you mentioned some names, who are still blaming the poor guy when, will they be held liable

did Caroline Flack teach them nothing? And a few people have raised the memory of Caroline Flack

who took her own life, as Jason Arday did. It was reported late on Friday

Matt in Northampton says, no one has learned a single thing from Caroline Flack's death, not a single thing

I've never seen the guy, but as soon as I heard the news, I felt so sad. What a stupid thing to hound someone to death

I mean, there's quite strong guidance on talking about suicides, suicides and there's never one reason um speculation is is generally discouraged

because you will never know what was going on in someone's mind at the at the crucial moment but

you will know what was going on in our world up to that moment um i will points out i suppose the

context for your conversation would need a white guy getting exactly the same levels of relentless as coverage Well Caroline was of course white and had been accused of I don think anyone had accused Jason Ard of any crimes

but she'd certainly been accused... She had been accused of a crime

The narrative, and it's one that has been explored by her mother as well

including in an incredibly emotional call to Sheila Fogarty on this radio station

the narrative was that the media spotlight was a contributory factor, and the thing that the spotlight was pointed at

albeit that it was prompted by events, it was still a person

And you forget that, or people forget that. It is a story, and you forget that it's a person

I remember a million years ago, I was having a right old pop at the footballer Frank Lampard

I was just reading all the stuff in the newspapers about him falling out with his ex

And I did, you know, what was commonplace in tabloid newspapers at the time

but I'd not done it on the radio before. And he rang in

And he was deeply, deeply upset with how I was characterising his private life

And I remember thinking, probably that afternoon, actually, that that's a person, it's not just a story

I was quite wet behind the ears here myself. And on newspapers, you forget completely that stories are about people

And I'm not defending what was done in the print media this last week

But if I had to, if I had to mount a defense, and some of the stuff I've seen is indefensible

I'll tell you in a moment why I'm not going to read it out to you or indeed name any names of the people responsible

if I had to mount a defence it would be that in this profession

we often forget that people are stories and stories are people, real people

I hope I don't do that anymore I haven't really done it since that encounter

all those years ago but I probably do, you know, I probably do

the reason I'm not going to mention any names may disappoint you or surprise you

I don't I don't know that you get to control where the pylons go next

I don't know how people who were gleeful, the word I would use is gleeful

I got sent a lot of examples over the weekend of people who were absolutely gleeful

in their coverage of the mounting accusations and allegations against Jason Arday

The central one that he'd plagiarised his PhD thesis at John Moore's university

I think I told you a week and a bit ago that I'd seen elements of the investigation into that

and that not only was he exonerated in that inquiry, and I can see why there were calls for a more independent inquiry

but actually the culpability was in large part self-directed. It was directed back at Liverpool John Moore's university

for a failure to properly supervise or to accommodate his special educational needs

that was missing from the story from the very start. The person who started it all is, I mean, a white supremacist

someone who believes that there should be or there would be no black people in academia if, I don't know

diversity, equity and inclusion programs hadn't existed. So there are many moving parts to what happened

But for me, and you can disagree with me on this, it's obviously going to be a phone-in

03456060973 is obviously going to be the number. It is... It is..

The... The nature of the story and the reality of the human being got completely blurred

The reason why I'm not going to mention names or read anything out, despite the incredible sort of avalanche of really hideous commentary

is because I think you possibly become part of the same problem. So imagine a columnist or a broadcaster who had been really, really gleeful about it

and I now went for them. Would I not be guilty of doing so

So I'll talk about what I have said. I'll talk about myself. But I don't know

You could disagree. And you may have to disagree with me in order to answer the question that I'm about to ask you

because there are growing calls for some sort of public inquiry or investigation

into what is called the media onslaught, the vicious media onslaught against Jason Arday

I thought that he was being quite naive when he resigned if he thought that it would stop

but there were things that really, really shocked me in the aftermath of his resignation

The story that really shocked me, and David Aranovic has written a brilliant short substack about this

David is one of the substackers I subscribe to and he, like me

focused on a story last week from a young woman whose name was not disclosed

I can't remember which newspaper she wrote in but she wrote about how he wasn't a very good teacher

and it was anonymous and it was from, I think, very early on in his career

and it was after he had resigned and there was a sort of gleefulness

in the coverage of that story almost a sort of a rubbing of hands with glee

about yet another accusation to level at him and some of the accusations obviously he needed to be held

accountable for that's something that he said himself something with which i completely agreed

and and yet some of the stuff that came out especially after he had already resigned what

else could he have done but resign and he did he resigned and then it carried on so the word i use

is gleefulness. There was a gleefulness in it that I think was related to his ethnicity

and related to a sort of form of tall poppy syndrome, but mostly his ethnicity

because he wasn't exactly a household name before these allegations and accusations emerged

So I told you a week ago last Friday that I felt personally let down by Jason Arday

because I had spent an hour in his company. I'd done a long interview with him on my Full Disclosure series

and I had been utterly, utterly beguiled by him. Completely beguiled by him personally and by his story

And I have a job that involves talking about the news. So, obviously, for me to talk about the news

and not talk about my personal encounter with the man, my personal experiences with the man

would have been deeply, deeply disingenuous and dishonest of me. And I'm glad that I did

Not as disingenuous or as dishonest as talking about him every day last week

and not even mentioning the fact that he's dead this morning. And that's a whole different planet of disingenuousness

But if I'd sought to conduct that debate without sharing with you my own feelings

it would have been ridiculous of me to ask you to share your feelings as well

So I felt, as I told you at the time, very let down

because I had believed every single syllable of his story, both academically and personally

And I felt on Friday night... News of his death broke. I just thought how pathetic and unnecessary that sounded. You know

who cares what you think or feel? I'd still do the same thing if we were there again

because I would never have known when I talked about it that the story was going to end like

this. But I said to you, didn't I, a week ago last Friday, I'm always wary of bringing a personal

angle to a conversation, making it in any way, shape or form about me. But I'd met him and you

hadn't. So I wanted to tell you what I thought, what I felt and what I found. And the only person

whose name I have put into the sphere is the racist who started the witch hunt, because it

was a witch hunt. Again, I said to you a week last Friday, it was a witch hunt. But then they found

some evidence of witchcraft, for want of a better phrase. They found things that he needed to be

held accountable for. And it began with a racist. That's two things being true at the same time in

the most uncomfortable way, in the most uncomfortable way. So the gleefulness for me is the most

damning and shameful element of this entire story. Not the reporting. Don't blame the journalists who pursued the story

The gleefulness of the commentary is, for me, the thing that we're looking at here

And there are parallels to be drawn there with Caroline Flack. This is my position, and I'm going to invite you to disagree in a moment

He resigned from his position, and the gleeful Witch Hunt continued. If anything, it gathered pace

Every single element of his backstory, much of which appears to be worthy of further investigation

but every single element of his... Does it actually appear to be worthy of further investigation

You know, I'm not a fan of whataboutery, but Ian Duncan Smith's CV was found to contain

all manner of embellishments and exaggerations, and it didn't stop him being leader of the Conservative Party

and a putative Prime Minister. You have a kind of, what would the word be

a grim acceptance that this is how the world works. You know, this is how the media works

The nature, once a sniff of blood is in the water, The nature of the sharks is such that I don't know that any investigation under the sun would change anything

I think Simon Baron-Cohen, who spoke very powerfully about his friend Jason Arday at the weekend

is right when he says that the investigation at Cambridge should continue

But what on earth will we do with the finding that he hadn't plagiarized his PhD if that turns out to be the case

if the original allegation turns out not to hold what do we do with that

and probably never talk about it again if you were one of the people displaying glee so

what exactly would the point of an inquiry into the media onslaught be

that's one of the headlines today it's a call from a very honourable man

Simon now Lord Woolley who's the principal of Homerton College, Cambridge. He's described the most horrendous, toxic, vicious witch hunt before his death

And remember, my background is in newspapers, and I used to be one of those slightly ghoulish individuals

that argued that if you are in the public sphere, if you pursued a public life, a public profile, a public reputation

then the price you paid for all the benefits that that brings is scrutiny and is criticism and is critique

And a large part of me still believes that to be true. But there was something about last week's coverage that just felt way too much, didn't it

And for me, at least, the entry point would be the gleefulness

The entry point would be the gleefulness. So, as he said himself, he needed to be held accountable for some of the claims that he'd made

As I said myself, having believed every single one of those claims, very, very unquestioningly

I felt very silly and as I'm saying to you now me feeling silly

seems to be an utterly utterly irrelevant point given what happened on Friday night so

make of that what you will the phone lines are open 03456060973

I would remind you that the Samaritans are available 24-7 if any of these issues affect

you and that their number is 116123 the facts of the story are pretty much well known to you the gleefulness of the coverage is i think

you'd agree the reason why many people are calling for an investigation into how the media behaved

the media that behaved most badly will either double down on what they've done or go completely

silent um that there is no real i don't think you'll ever be hearing any um self-reflection or

self uh blaming and in that kind of corner where the gleefulness was that just involves either

staying silent and never talking about it again or doubling down and the reason why i don't think

it is appropriate to go after individuals i even thought twice about sharing some footage at the

weekend of the bloke who got fired from Cambridge, who started all of this, the racist who started

all of this. I even thought twice about sharing footage of that, but they released an interview

on the morning after Jason Arde died. So, I mean, that is, to me, a request for attention

But, you know, that kind of pressure can break people, whatever side of an argument they're on

I think it broke Jason, although I can't obviously speculate with any certainty about the straws that broke camel's backs

But I wouldn't sit here if the bloke who had started the witch hunt also ended up in a state of deep emotional distress and contemplated going down that path

You know, we all, in some ways, put straws on camel's backs

We all do. And I don't know, maybe that sounds absolutely daft to you, that today is not the day to start listing the worst offenders or going after the commentators and columnists who were gleeful, gleeful in their hounding of this man, as opposed to measured, as the news reporters were

or reflective as as those of us who knew him and felt dismayed by a perceived

betrayal as we felt so oh three four five six oh six oh nine seven three I'd say

one thing actually that I did think about at the weekend and I do feel personally I think guilt probably about and he i shouldn have forgotten that he was still big well i don he was still beguiling you know he he can have

all been invented it wasn't all flammary or or exaggeration or embellishment you know there was

something there that was um very very special and it's not there anymore david arenovich again

mentioned icarus and i couldn't get that image out of my head actually when i was thinking about

this at the weekend and you just flew so close to the sun that your wings fell off and it doesn't

really matter what your wings are made of the tragedy the tragedy is um is the death 23 minutes

after 11 is the time. So, actually, yeah, I think all I'm going to ask you is this. What do

you think? What do you think? And, of course, crucially on this programme, what do you feel? What has

this story done to you? 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need

It's 23 minutes after 11. James O'Brien on LBC. 25 minutes after 11 is the time

You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Martin writes, Jason Arday was the victim of a lynching, no more, no less. I mean

very powerful language. There is a difference, of course, in that the pursuit and the persecution

of him was not just because he was black. The ongoing investigations and the ongoing reports

were built upon findings of apparent exaggerations and dishonesties, embellishments. As he said himself

I will be held accountable for what I've done, but I don't know..

Actually, now, I don't know what that would look like, a proper accountability to a degree or to a point

that would have satisfied the people, the people who felt glee at the whole sorry story

Leon is in Milton Keynes. Leon, what would you like to say? Yeah, hi James. I'm a first time caller. I just felt compelled to call in terms of how I feel about this. I'm quite angered. I'm disgusted in relation to how Jason was treated in the media and hounded and pursued

I think and hopefully this is not too strong to say I think obviously not literally

but I think Cambridge has got a high degree of responsibility in relation to what happened

I think he was held to a higher standard than any other academic in these circumstances

remembering the fact that he was exonerated in relation to the plagiarism accusation

following an investigation by the University that handed in his PhD, but yet it still pursued

Yes, there may have been some embellishment in relation to his CV or career

and I'm not advocating that that's a good thing, but it doesn't justify it

It was completely disproportionate in relation to how things were reported and the degree of press interest

which caused, I believe, it caused my opinion. It's chicken. Because we can talk about press interest

But press interest in these days, more than ever, is public interest as well

I mean, they were feeding an appetite for more detail and more content, more input

I mean, and, you know, these things, I choose my words carefully, but it's August

There's not a lot to put in the newspaper, so he was a victim of that as well

But once the metrics and algorithms came in, and someone posted one newspaper's search results page

and I thought it was fake. I couldn't believe one newspaper had done so many stories

in such a short period of time. But that is both press and public interest

It's not just one. That's right, but why was there the interest, James

Why, there have been other academics who have been accused of praises

There have been other academics who have been found guilty of plagiarism. There's one at Cambridge who's still in his job

Yeah, exactly. So, for me, the reason why there's an interest, it pandered to the racist trope

That, you know, he wasn't qualified, or the racist trope, that he wasn't justified to be a Cambridge professor

That's what it was all about. And there's a media feeding frenzy that was based on that

That's what I believe. Yeah, and you're right, obviously. The initial impetus came from somebody

who didn't think that black people should be professors. And that is, I think, one of the few absolutely inalienable facts of the whole story

But the press interest was driven not just by that. I think that's probably at the root of the desire to bring him down

He's an uppity black man, right? He's one of the least uppity people I've ever met, actually

but the way his biography appeared, it was, you know, an incredibly high achiever

But there were elements of it, you know, the running of the marathons and the..

The word that a lot of people used who were not being evil or gleeful was fabulous

He did tell some fabulous stories that turned out to be not true

And that created a kind of impetus that kept feeding of itself

So I think your observations about ethnicity are absolutely on the money

but they're not the end of the story. That's not the only element here

that explains the feeding frenzy. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if I'd say that

but speaking of, I'm a black man, Afro-Caribbean extraction or descent, is, for me, it sends an implied message

of you and your kind do not belong there. You don't belong there

And the press were conspiratorial in relation to effectively feeding that message to the community

to people of my ethnicity. And that's what I find disappointing. It's only now that there's been a little bit of focus in relating to the origin

that this is all started by a racist. I knew that from the start

I was drawn to the idea of the only reason in that first moment

where you'd think that he was not being completely honest with you was if you thought that he can't be this because he's black

And that's what they thought. That's what they thought. Yeah. I knew that from the start, and I know you did

But, you know, in terms of, for example, people who are not of my ethnicity of a different colour

in terms of prior to his resignation, who, you know, who talked to me about the story

and said, isn't it awful in relation to what this man's done? Not knowing the full background in terms of the origin or the context of what was really going on And unfortunately the Daily Mail readers or certain other papers don get that nuance or that particular detail

Is there any point... Even now. Well, that's why I come from a pessimistic position with my final question to you

which is, is there any point having an investigation into the media behaviour here

Because it is, for good or for ill, actually no, for ill, for exclusive and extraordinary ill

it is a self-regulating industry yeah and that's what needs to change

I mean you've had the Leveson inquiry in the report it needs to change

otherwise you're going to get more of these yes this happened to have the

I won't even call it a backdrop it's kind of the front and centre

the racist trope but there'll be other Caroline Flacks there'll be other Jason Hardys

unless there's a change I don't even know what a change would look like I don't know enough about other countries

but I mean it can't be that this is the only way that a media could conduct itself

Leon, thank you. It's 11.32. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC

James O'Brien on LBC. 11.35 is the time. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC

where we continue to contemplate the tragedy of Jason Arday, accused of plagiarism

found not culpable of plagiarism by John Moore's university and subsequently subject to what one friend of his, Lord Woolley

described at the weekend as a horrendous, toxic, vicious witch hunt. I would argue very few of us would withstand

And that's why I'm not sure how healthy it is. You're getting quite cross with me about this

but I'm not sure how healthy it is to do hit lists of people

who've been particularly vile or particularly gleeful or particularly vicious. it is a time for self-reflection

or reflection at least for anybody who has a public profile and who weighed in on this conversation

myself included but the idea that the media can somehow change as a consequence

or that some form of investigation is necessary I just think it is a little bit

shall we say overly optimistic what do you take away from this story

And remember, not for the first time, I am a, well, I may not be neurotypical, but I'm very much a white man

So there are elements to this story that I can only ever have empathy for

I can never actually walk in those shoes. I can never understand what it's like

Please ensure that Jason's neurodiversity is part of the conversation, says Beatrice

Yes, there are many issues, including skin colour and how that's seen as race and is discriminated against

but as all people diagnosed with autism reach a threshold of being at risk of trauma

high risk of suicide, and a risk of being a vulnerable adult, it is also key

Hard, perhaps, for some people to see such extraordinary achievements and vulnerability in the same space

but Beatrice is obviously correct. That idea of comparing his experiences to other academics has been raised by a few people

including Scott in Leeds. And, I mean, the problem wasn't the original accusation of plagiarism

It was what happened when that accusation of plagiarism, which may yet be found to be completely untrue

the investigations conducted so far by Liverpool, John Moores University and Cambridge University, did not find him culpable

That's a matter of record. But what it did was start a ball rolling

and that ball led to places where there was a need for accountability

where there was apparently evidence of untruth and exaggeration and embellishment. So it's not quite that simple, Scott, I don't think

Well, I suppose it is in a way, because I don't know what else the Cambridge professor

who has been found culpable for plagiarism, I don't know what else I might find if I got his CV

and went through it line by line. Maybe I'd find that there'd been other embellishments there

So I don't know. Why did they, with the sniff of the plagiarism allegations

why did the media go after all the other things? That perhaps is actually proof of your point rather than mine

Jack in Dagnum goes further. He says, this was never a public interest story

There had never been any public demonstrations asking for an investigation into Jason Arday

The public interest argument from the media is deliberately used to commit all sorts of evil

again I disagree with that in part and I may as I just did with Scott Inley

talk myself out of my disagreement while telling you why but Jason was very much a public figure

he had a book he has a book coming out in the next couple of weeks

a big book full of his life story one of the reports has

reported that there are big gaps between the original proposal and the actual book that was published

so it's like blood in the water with sharks. There is actually blood in the water

Do you see what I mean? So I don't know that you can even say that the public interest argument doesn't work

Of course there's a public interest in it. And then finally, before I get back from the phones

this from Sue. Like you, James, I was stunned by Jason's extraordinary presence and charisma

That reference then to Icarus just tipped me over the edge emotionally. I got that off David Aranovich

who wrote about this very powerfully at the week. And I'm with you all the way on your feelings and response

I'd begun to feel a sense of betrayal, like you, having been taken in by that larger-than-life

persona. My heart dropped like a stone as we were sat discussing the issue over a meal on Friday

when, coincidentally, the news came through. The reference to wings and the sun just summed it up

so beautifully. I couldn't even gather myself to express that this morning, but I'm glad you did

but I'm glad David Arenovich did. And this from Taikiba, the tragedy is the same as the one

happening to Meghan Markle, the way the press attack her because she dared enter into a

circle that they, either consciously or subconsciously, they think should be exclusively

reserved for white people. Again, you can't get past the fact that two things can be true at the same time

Racism is real. It was a huge driving force in both the beginning of this story

and the pursuit of Jason Arde. But once the pursuit was underway

they found things that needed to be reported. that were bound to be reported, that were always going to be reported

And it doesn't make it any less disproportionate, but it doesn't make it unjustifiable

I wonder where the line is for you between justifiable interest and unjustifiable interest

For me, it was glee. It's a bit of a cop-out, maybe, but for me it was just glee

If you were feeling glee about this, then you contributed something different

from what the reporters contributed. But then, what if someone you really didn't like

got into an awful lot of trouble? You'd feel glee. The problem with that is you didn't..

None of these people knew, Jason. There was nothing there not to like. So if, for example, a political figure that you didn't like

ended up in a huge amount of trouble over things that they had allegedly done

you have a deep and strong opinion about a political person already because of who they are and what they do

what they represent and what they've done. How could anybody have a strong negative opinion

about a man they never heard of And that why Glee seems to me to be pertinent Pertinent Helen is in Ealing Helen what would you like to say

Oh, hi, James. Thanks very much for taking my call. You know what, James

You know, James, this is the first time ever in my life that I have called a radio station

that I felt that strongly about what has transpired. I had to call you today

My husband looked at me like, you know, Are you mad? Are you going to be calling? Can we not perpetrate the myth

that people who ring this radio programme or indeed this entire radio station

must be one sandwich short of a picnic, please, Helen. Carry on

Well, no. But in all seriousness, I wanted to call to send my condolences

to Jason's family. And even though I'm not related to him or know his family

I can't even begin to think how they must be feeling right now

I mean, to be fair, I didn't know very much about him. No, nobody did really until the story started to break

A few of us did, but none of the people in the sort of lynch mobs

if we're going to use that language, none of them knew anything about him until they started being spoon-fed the stories

Yeah, absolutely. I was going to try and not mention that about the lynch mob

because, I mean, I could say a few things that I shouldn't really say on the radio. I'll try not to

I'll try not to. But, yeah, like I was saying, when I saw the news while hoovering on Friday come up to say

and I had to really look to see on the TV when it said that the man was dead

it just made me feel ill, you know. I just thought, how can that be possible

But then, of course, you know, then I started not so much about taking more interest, but just reading up about it more

And then and seeing and hearing what had happened. I mean, the man was a professor at Cambridge

I'm a black woman, James. Yes. Right. And I know that anything that we do, we always have to do it

200 percent as opposed to 100 percent. Right. This is ingrained in me

We are well aware of that. But, you know, whenever I speak to my kids

whenever I've spoken to my children, I've always said to them while growing up, you know, put this aside

You know, you speak to people and live with people and deal with people in the way that you would like to be dealt with

But I am sad to say that at this age that I am now

that I'm going to go to my own grave. Oh, Helen. still knowing, hearing and feeling

that there is racism my god did you ever have moments where you thought you wouldn't

and let's hope you're with us for a heck of a long time yet no, listen

I have got some great friends from all different nationalities James who would be feeling the same way as me

but I just think it is so, so sad that in these times now

that although it's not in so much in your face like it was in the 70s and 80s

that this time now, that it is so prevalent and so horrible

and that, I didn't want to mention them, but that the press and some journalists

have blood on their hands, right? Now, I definitely think that they should get inquiries

I don't think anybody, if we had truth serums and lie machines, I don't think anybody

would be revealed to have wanted him to die. Well, exactly. Very true

Because some of them, some of them who do have a conscience or who have a heart

will then think, oh, my God, you know, oh, my God, the man has died

The man is dead. The man was alive on Friday and he's dead

He's dead. He cannot be brought back. And, you know, do people really understand that

when you look at the picture of the man does he look like a person who's a wicked person he looks

like a person who was in love with his family with his children and i'm sure very uh you know

about what he's achieved and i'm and you can't tell me as well james that you've got to you've

got to uh be a professor at cambridge and that he was not scrutinized from the point of view of what

education and qualifications he had well that's one of that's one of the things that needs to be

looked into that that perhaps he wasn't scrutinized enough this is the accusation that's

being leveled at cambridge and in some ways this makes him if it turns out to be true it makes him

a victim of their um well-intentioned mistakes in that they didn't they didn't do the scrutiny

that they should have done because they were so keen to have somebody with such an extraordinary

story and a black person with such an extraordinary story on the faculty that that's the accusation

that's being leveled at cambridge from from from responsible quarters as well not just racist

Well, I hope, James, from responsible quarters, that they do investigate it, because we want to know

Because if I am being put in a position of elevation, I want it to be because of the work that I've done

the studying that I've done, and not because of the colour of my skin

And even now, taking away the colour of the skin, the man had ADHD

He was autistic. You know, whatever you call it. I apologise, James, for not being as articulate

as I would like to be. That's all right, so do I. Yeah, I'm emotionally invested in this, right

But, you know, so then there should be some form of care

for that individual. To think that the gentleman was there, he got into such a dark place

that even the thought of the love of his children, his parents, the rest of his family

could not deter the way he was thinking to take his life instead

I do need to be slightly mindful of broadcasting regulations with regard to suicide

And I'm not 100% clear on what they are, Helen. You won't be surprised to learn

But I think found dead is the reporting at the moment. And there are, obviously, we have to be mindful of not adding to the burdens of people

who are also struggling with their lives at the moment. So I've been not in any way criticizing anything that you've said

I'm just reminding myself, really, of the importance of keeping an eye on things

Can I ask you a question that, if it's an inappropriate question, I sense you'll tell me

Yeah? Tell me. Yeah, go on. But you will tell me. How do you, I mean, there will be some people, and I don't know whether or not they deserve any oxygen today

but there are inevitably people in my inbox objecting to the insistence that this is a story of race

I mean, I don't think you need to, but I wonder whether you would care to tell them why they're wrong

They are wrong because they are not walking in my shoes as a black person

And I'm not using that as an excuse, James. You know, when a friend says to me that someone, you know, that something's happened to me

But I have not experienced, I never say, oh, I understand. What I do, I try to be empathetic, you know, to sympathize

But I can't say, oh, I understand, because I haven't experienced it

And to me, that's just normal. If you haven't experienced something, how will you know

You can give an opinion, but you won't know what it's like, how it feels, you know

Yeah, I do know. But there's a lot of people, you know, James, that are in the mindset right now where they are at their deepest, you know, their darkest corner, darkest thoughts, you know

And I'd like to say to them that I hope that they will reach out to their family

someone, well maybe not in the family, maybe a complete stranger or a friend to ask for help

because Jason's light has gone out and there's no way of switching it back on

And again, I want to send out my love and condolences to his people

because I can't even begin to imagine what they're thinking, feeling, because they were unable to help him

And they'd had three years of this, three or four years of this. well i mean some tactics deployed were probably wrong in retrospect getting getting very very um

robust law firms involved to shut down journalism is something that is probably ill-advised but um

but it had been going on for three years and and i know that he'd he'd been brought low on several

occasions before but of course you keep coming back to the fact that when the when the spotlight

was shining on him, it found stuff that needed to be accounted for. It found stuff that, and that's

why the story wouldn't go away, because once there is that blood in the water

I stopped saying that, it's an inappropriate phrase, my apologies to anybody who's picked up on that. But

once there was a sense of momentum had been gained and gathered, everybody started

thinking, well, it's worth checking that out as well, and it's worth checking that out as well

and he was clearly, I prefer the word a fabulist. He was clearly

a fabulist and it meant that people began to think that every single line of his CV was

worthy of looking at and guess what they never did? They never

reported any of the stuff that they found to be true. James O'Brien on LBC

It is 1155. That number for the Samaritans once again is 116123. If you

Google them you can find other ways of getting in touch. It's very tricky

topic to discuss on the radio, not least when it is being brought into very stark perspective

very stark relief by the conduct of the media over the course of last week and the week before

particularly for me, and I'm just one pair of eyes, after he resigned, at which point I suppose

there was a naive hope that the dial would be turned down, the scale of scrutiny would be turned

down which is why i find that article by when he was teaching at rohampton which was a long time

ago i think um some some one newspaper i genuinely forget which i'm not i'm not keeping that out of

the conversation if you remind me i'll tell you but um why would you run that why why and that's

where the hand rubbing seemed to me to reach a whole new gear we found an anonymous former student

from a university that is not cambridge to say he was a really bad teacher where are all the

articles from people saying that he was wonderful and inspiring and brilliant at what he did um

because there are plenty of people who believe that there are plenty of people who believe that

11 56 is the is is the time and i'll read this as well because you know we have a bond of trust

you and i for the first time on a major subject i feel so let down by you james you are making

excuses for these vile racists um at the amount of white liars there are in the public eye who

who are not hounded is absolutely staggering. I'm so disappointed. I might change my mind

I'll tell you honestly, can I tell you honestly, I just, I don't want to be sitting here in a few days' time

after somebody who's engaged in this disgusting behaviour has been hurt or who has hurt themselves

That's what I'm thinking, all right? Up to and including the people who began this whole process

I don't want to be sitting here in two or three days' time I'm hearing of another tragedy or another offence

and sitting here thinking, why did we have to put their name in the public's fair

It's a bit daft, isn't it? Because the names are already in the public's fair

and that's another reason why I'm not doing it today because you know what's going on

You know. So that's my answer to your question, but your disappointment hurts me

I'm not going to lie. I don't want to disappoint anybody ever, which is a bit of a fool's errand, isn't it

Ben's in Streatham. Ben, what would you like to say? Hi, James

I'm 19, and for me, what's happened is for me, they're just the last straw for me

when it comes to how the media has just treated and treats people in this country

as like you have journalists more concerned over the word the language used to describe conflicts

than the actual deaths that take place in conflicts you have poor jason who um was just

commodified he was used to sell papers and it's just really frankly depressing as a young person

seeing that this is how we treat one another. This is how our institutions treat us

And, yeah, so... Where would you put the line, do you think

Because I can't just keep saying glee every 20 minutes. Where would you put the line between appropriate and inappropriate

Because even by Jason's own account, he needed to be held accountable

for some of the things that he had done and some of the things that he had said

So at what point did it become either inappropriate or unconscionable or unbearable for you

I just think the way that it was reported just came across as being incredibly dehumanising. like

I wouldn't say there was a certain point, I feel like this was a

could have run for a couple days, if that but you know

because of the way the media apparatus runs I suppose they pumped and pumped and pumped and pumped and

this is unfortunately what's happened I mean personally I it like my personal opinion but I couldn care less if a university professor had plagiarized I mean I couldn care less For me there are far more important things in this world And I think for everybody there are far more important things

Two things can be true at the same time. I'm sorry to sound glib. The idea that this would never have been a story is naive

The idea that this story should never have been as big as it is

is simultaneously self-evident. And the question of why this story did grow beyond all reason or proportion is the one that we keep coming back to

And it wouldn't have happened to a white, it just wouldn't have happened to a white professor. And people can do with that

Well, you can disagree with me if you want, Ben, but I don't think that anybody who really understands politics, let alone racial politics, can argue with that

Oh, no, I'm agreeing with you. No, no, I thought you would. I just didn't want to take that for granted

no way that this would have happened if it was I mean thinking of white

people in the public eye who have been found to have plagiarized or to

have embellished their CVs or to have and of course he hasn't been found to have plagiarized

and that's why the story wouldn't go away I think that must be

where the gleefulness comes from I don't know I don't see quite

where the gleefulness would come from unless somewhere deep inside you felt that black people had no business

being in those spaces. And that is why the Meghan Markle parallel

is the one that is interesting, a very interesting one. So it's utterly unhinged hatred directed at someone

Why? Because she has the audacity as a woman of colour to infiltrate the highest bastions of white privilege

the actual royal family. And I think a Cambridge professorship. Historically, this is a university

where you've still got people on the payroll defending slavery, practically. How dare a white, how dare a black man

And then, of course, the two things becoming true at the same time kicks in again

which is that when they started searching, they found stuff that needed to be accounted for

Thank you, Ben. A very, I suppose, uplifting call from somebody so young

that you're managing to see things so clearly. I'm pretty sure that I didn't at your age. It is two minutes after 12

And, yeah, there's even an academic at Cambridge at the moment who has been found to have done plagiarism

and who did not lose his job. And he probably would have resigned if he had faced approximately, what shall we say

20% of the scrutiny and the attention that Jason Arde faced. And I'm not going to tell you his name either

because I just think at this point in this story, in this cycle

it just involves pointing fingers and sticking targets on people's backs. I just do. I believe

that. I might change my mind and when I do I'll tell you, I promise. That's Samaritans number

once again. 116123. James O'Brien on LBC. It is seven minutes after 12

and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I sometimes feel like this, not very often

to be honest with you, but I don't feel that we can move on from the story that we're having

And I will comment upon the extraordinary silence or lack of coverage from people and places that

last week couldn't get enough of Jason Arday's story, but who today seem to have forgotten that

he ever existed at all. So which angle, even that word, feels a little bit inappropriate. I just want

to hear more of your thoughts. You've probably heard too much of mine in the course of the last

hour. So here is a story about a young man who was, by his own account, mute until the age of 11

or 12 and illiterate until the age of 18, who then embarked upon a frankly breathtaking

path of academic pursuits culminating in becoming the youngest black professor in the history of

Cambridge University. Quite early on in that process, he became the target of people who

believe essentially in white supremacism, the most prominent of whom has given an interview

in the last few days in which he dreamt of a revolution after which he would become the head

of eugenics at Harvard University. So the motivation there is pretty clear. But as a

consequence of those spotlights being switched on by those people, other elements of Jason's story

came into the light. And there were elements about his charity fundraising, his histories of

publication, even his kind of honorary professorships or associate professorships that were not standing

up to scrutiny. By the time of his death on Friday night, there were people coming forward

claiming that they'd been at primary school with him and he was never mute

Still people coming forward to say the precise opposite. But the idea that every single syllable of his CV

had been, it was now open season, was a matter of record

It was still there. And I just wonder what you make of

A, this story, 03456060973, and B, calls for an investigation into the media onslaught

People I really respect are very exercised by the fact that The Times was targeting people personally and directly with adverts

So every time a new story appeared, the story would appear in your kind of Facebook feed

which means it has been paid for. And I mention that these are people I really respect

because I just saw that as them advertising things that are getting lots of clicks

as a kind of chicken and egg story. It was the Times that published this story. A woman taught by the academics said she learnt nothing of substance

and was accused of white privilege when she challenged him. I guess white privilege is having those accusations

put in the newspaper of record without having to put your name to them

Or certainly, there's a form of privilege there. multiple ads sent to people targeted and paid for um uh over the jason rday story with every

element of it and i should know more actually about how normal that is but i don't really

spend an awful lot of time in those spaces myself and my own settings are um designed to protect my

own privacy never mind my mental health but so i didn't see any of that but i presume that stories

like that are always being put in front of you the calculation of the algorithm is that because

of things you've done in the last few weeks you're going to love this story so i don't know if that's

proof of anything more sinister or more unpleasant 03456060973 is the number you need to to tell me

that um that this is a story that affects you because or or what it is that you've learned

from this and for me and possibly because of my own professional history the wisdom or otherwise of an investigation into the media onslaught against Jason Arday What would it do Again Simon Woolley speaking very powerfully to the

media this weekend, saying, it was a blood sport. This wonderful, big-hearted young man

never stole a bag of crisps. He was only accused of plagiarism. Actually, he was found not

culpable of plagiarism by John Moores University, and yet he was subject to the most horrendous

toxic, vicious wish hunt I would argue very few of us would withstand. And one of the things that

I've been sent involved an attempt to explain that the story got so big because it was all so funny

and that was written after he died. This is what I mean by gleefulness. What do you take away from

And this, 0345 6060 973 is the number you need. Jackson Hackney, Jack, what do you reckon

Oh yeah, before I begin, I just want to say again, you know, rest in peace to Jason Arde and condolences to his family

who have obviously been having a rough time at things. Of course

I think some, I've got a few things in my mind that I thought are going to happen because of what's happened here

Firstly, I believe that whether good intentioned or not, universities are going to quietly step away from celebrating diversity under the understanding or quote unquote lessons learned from what happened to Jason Arde

I feel quite conflicted about that because it feels like the people who sat there rubbing their hands with glee, absolutely happy

And for some of them who are still going after this man, even after he has passed, I feel like it's just the biggest reminder of they win

I can't begin to also think about what it feels like for those teenagers who collected their A-level results and who are going to go to Cambridge

If you're one of these young black people who are going to be going to Cambridge to study at one of the most prestigious universities on earth, how can you feel safe

how can they safeguard you as a student when they didn't even have the wherewithal to

safeguard jason and i think there are better ways i think that if you're going to shove

one of your academics out as this poster child you have to have a far more sophisticated and

far more dedicated safeguarding understanding of anti-black racism as well as how to protect

this man who had a disability and as well an angle which also i've not heard from certain

ends of the media who often do talk about this is i thought there was a male mental health crisis

but we were perfectly happy to dogpile this man into a condition that unfortunately has resulted

in this it's absolutely disgusting in in i'll pick up on one thing you said if i can and i

again, I'm getting bored of hearing myself say two things can be true at the same time

but Jason's area of expertise was precisely the racism that you are talking about

And the, I mean, it can't, Cambridge should have been more conscious of it

and they should have had better safeguarding practices in place. But I wonder if there is some sort of investigation into their conduct

whether or not it will come back and say, well, why on earth would we be more mindful of our professors

or our putative professors' own area of expertise? What are we going to be able to teach him about the things that you're talking about, Jack

Do you see what I mean? Yeah, but I would say to that, it's not about the administration at Cambridge can tell a sociological professor

about the sociological what-have-use of it. It's about an organisation's legal responsibility to protect staff

And from some effect, Jason Arday may have been an expert in that field

but you also have to employ... Well, there's a difference between theory and practice as well, isn't there, for goodness sake

That's the most obvious thing. You can write a thousand books about something

but it doesn't mean that you'll know how to cope when it happens to you. Yes, and he would have needed people maybe to have had him a little bit more press-ready

and perhaps the people who were getting him press ready needed to be far more aware of look in this

day and age i have spoken to you james of a fair number of times and each time we keep walking

further and further into this age of very sophisticated media attacks in in in racism

towards black people look at what happens to all these black footballers every time they miss a penalty look at what happens how like just and i remember his name i think his name was wayne

Brown, the fire chief from the West Midlands, who was questioned of his qualifications

Again, I may be misremembering his name or his story. But the point is, is I feel like if you are going to celebrate somebody as breaking these

barriers, you have to be ready and know, look, the walls are going to come for this man

let's make sure we cross our t's dot our i's and get things in order to protect him

yeah i mean i'm not going to suggest it's easy to say that now because you've been making this

point and points alongside it for for a long time long before jason ardo's story became the biggest

story in town for the best part of a fortnight and and the football power parallel works perfectly

as well because gareth southgate has spoken at great length about the effort put into protecting

these young men these these lads from what you're describing rather than the previous eras and

previous generations where you were supposed to just sort of deal with it or or suck it up or

um or move on or ignore it you're reminding us that we shouldn't be teaching young people that

you know there are some right old nasty so-and-sos in the world and that they are just a fact of life

You're going to have to live with them. That's where social media has set us back decades or years

because you can regulate a little bit for people who get paid for their opinions

by traditional media organizations. People who get paid for their opinions by Elon Musk

can say whatever they want about whoever they want and that is now bleeding back into traditional media

So some of the people saying some of the most disgusting things

are known faces, are known, and they are, of course, competing for attention in a marketplace that includes anonymous avatars on social media

making all manner of disgusting allegations and lies about people. I don't know where the path forward is, mate, anymore, to be honest with you

Not on a day like today. How do you turn the temperature down in moments like let us say the middle of last week How does an industry or a country or a society or a government or a population do it What needs to happen Because you could have had a hundred people queuing up to say can we stop now Can we stop now And you have people like I got in my inbox this morning

saying, oh, have I accidentally tuned into Black Lives Matter radio? And you can ignore them and

you can crack on anyway. But even if a million people had come forward last week and said

all right, let's just stop now. Other people would have said, you can't stop the press doing

what they want, it just wouldn't have stopped, Jack. It wouldn't have stopped. If everybody had come out last week and said

let's just stop now, it would not have stopped. No, and I saw a lot of black media people

or black people on social media last week that were indeed saying that this is going to go too far

Myself as well, I had a comment and it just started blowing up yesterday with terms of likes and replies

And it was from five days ago. And I said, they're not going to stop

And this is just how it goes. I think that we have to take, if there is something that can be done, I think, again, we start with asking questions, which is, OK, fine

The media are going to do what they do. But can we all just answer the question as to why the academics at his exact same university who have been found to have done the thing he was accused and found to have not done

Why was there no publicity? why do we have to why do we have to implicitly allow for black academics to sit there with extra

pressure on their back i mean could you imagine being a black academic and one of the things of

your career is you're going to have to publish work that might bring something new or or challenge

an established idea how as an academic can you fully do that with wholesale confidence if you

know constantly that you are never going to not have twice as much pressure on you as your peers

it hinders academia if a black person has an idea that is potentially groundbreaking and they say

i'm not going to really explore that's a little bit too much i don't really want the hassle i don't want the attention that will be brought down on me that would not be brought down on a white

colleague making the same intervention. And the same for people... I mean, you're sure about that, aren't you

And it's very hard to argue with you. Just this idea that if you have people

and I don't think anyone can argue with this, who think that men like you have no place in certain spaces

And if you are there, you're there on sufferance and you have to join in

You have to be like, you know, if you were a member of an ethnic minority

who joined a political party that is openly or avowedly racist, then you have to become like them

You have to start saying terrible things about other people of colour or other members of ethnic minorities

But if you're going to be true to yourself and you're going to be in that space

you're going to be pursued, you're going to be marked, you're going to be targeted. I've got one final thing, I guess, I want to just throw out there

which is a lot of people were very questionable of how someone who struggled with reading and what have you

how could they have gotten so far? And as a black person, I just want to say if he if Jason Arday had wrapped, if he'd have been an emcee and wrapped his way into fame and fortune and national stardom

And then he said, oh, I couldn't even read until such and such

I just question whether people would find it so fantastical that he could get a mastery of the English language and have wit

but rather he dared to step into a space. And sadly, I just feel that, well, the results speak for themselves

Thank you, Jack. Are you all right? Yeah. Stay safe. Thank you

23 minutes after 12. James O'Brien on LBC. 24 minutes after 12

There's a real, what's the word that I'm looking for? There's a tension between two things in the correspondence that you're sending me today

And I don't think that the first element of it is evil or badly meant

You know, when you say and you think it helps everybody exaggerates their CV or everybody embellishes their CV, you make a valid point

but I hope this isn't an inappropriate thing to say and please tell me if it is

if you start from the position that lots of people fib lots of people exaggerate their CVs

the lesson you take away from Jason Arday's story and indeed from the story that Jack just referred to a moment ago

of the chief fire officer from the West Midlands Wayne Brown who was facing questions when he died

about the MBA, the Masters of Business Administration that he said he had and that is a requirement for chief fire officers

I think it emerged that he'd started it but not finished it

and then apologised for putting it on his CV. If you're black and you achieve a position of prominence

your CV becomes a very different document from the CV of somebody who's white and who hasn't been completely honest

and listen I wish that wasn't true but it is I know that it is

because you can think of prime ministers who got sacked from jobs

for making up quotes and didn't even pause their progress in the case of Boris Johnson actually

onto the very newspaper that I think led the line on breaking the Jason Arde story

fired from the Times for making up quotes from his own godfather and he got scooped up by the Daily Telegraph

So it wouldn't have mattered. He could resign or be fired from one job and just pop up in another

That wouldn't have happened to a black journalist, I don't think. I don't think

I don't know that we'll ever be able to test that theory. But that's when people tell you that if you're black

you have to try twice as hard as a white person to achieve the same things

It's not just about effort and energy. It's also about, if you like, due diligence

it's this awful situation where it will be a much bigger news story

if you're black than it will be if you're white I'd love you to argue me out of that position

because I don't like the picture that it paints of the country that I love but um

look at all the people in public life who lie all the time

whose careers don't seem to be curtailed or hindered in any way shape or form

and that's not about the media you know that's about us that's about how the public respond

to a story of a black man who has risen high because if I say black man risen high

some people hear immediately above his station and in the massive majority of cases

that will not be the case they will have risen to their station to their deserved station

in fact they may not have risen quite as high as they would have done had they been white then you find the exceptions

you find the exceptions the people who have got questions that need answering

on their CVs, the people who perhaps were used by an academic institution to prove their own credentials

by promoting somebody without having done as Jack in Hackney just brilliantly

brilliantly explained. Didn't do the due diligence they should have done, didn't dot every I and cross every T

in a way that would not be necessary for a white appointment. And I guess that is, well, you know, I sit here now

and I say, oh, that was a big takeaway, that's a big lesson. to be learned. And every black person listened to the programme says, James, I've known that

since the day I was born. I've known that since my mum, I sat on my mother's knee and she explained

to me why something had happened in kindergarten that day. I sit here now saying, oh yes

how interesting it is to reflect upon how much higher your conduct must be if you're black than

it is if you're white. And every black person listening to the programme goes, yeah, what next

James? Pope's a Catholic, is he? Breaking news. And yet, of course, people who pursued Jason

And are they with the most glee, with the most glee, were the people who will work hardest to deny that

And will now, of course, move effortlessly into a space wherein all people of colour are achieving high office

or achieving high, particularly, because Jack's other brilliant point about what if he'd been a rapper

they all have now a slightly darker cloud over them, a cloud of suspicion in the minds of the people who have been gleeful in their coverage of this story

It's coming up to half past 12. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

James O'Brien on LBC. It's 32 minutes after 12. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC

where we continue to talk about Jason Arday, who died or was found dead on Friday night

having faced I think an almost unprecedented scale of media attention for claims on his CV and in his life story

Attention that began with allegations about plagiarism in his PhD thesis which I think was done 12 years ago at Liverpool John Moore's University

and Liverpool John Moore University conducted an investigation into those accusations and found that he was not culpable of plagiarism

Less reported, by the way, still, is the fact that they did find at John Moore's university

that John Moore's university was a little bit culpable if there were problems in that PhD

because he didn't have the levels of supervision that you would normally expect at that level of academia

And given his neurodiversity, you perhaps would have expected those levels to have been even higher

And that is where, for me, the story becomes almost unbearable because even now after all of these years of talking more about

neurodiversity in general and autism in particular who can honestly say that they really

that they really really get it that they really do know how people um need to be treated if if they

are in those categories compared to how people who are not in those categories be treated simon

baron cohen sir simon baron cohen who's a world authority on autism and um and was a friend and

former colleague of jason our days is someone whose words i would really recommend you read

um and he wants an investigation to go ahead into how he was appointed and um how he conducted

himself while teaching at the university so again i'm sorry sometimes when i say a million things

I say the same thing a million times lots of things can be true at the same time

and that is well there's a reason why you've heard me say that about 30 times

today. Margaret's in Hammersmith. Margaret what would you like to say? Thank you James. Thank you

for taking my call. I think first I just want to send my deepest sympathy

to Professor Ardode and his family and friends. I mean it is a real tragedy not just

for the black community but for everybody I had the pleasure of meeting him once

when he facilitated a workshop on the future of education and AI

And I think he came across as a kind and really thoughtful and gentle man

But today I feel very angry, upset and sad. And that's for a number of reasons

I think I'm really quite pleased that somebody had raised the point about

how I personally felt a bit disappointed, dismayed in you. And I'm glad that somebody's raised that

but that's not the main thrust of what I want to say. I think it's really about the message

For me, it's a message that it sends, which I just heard the last caller pick up

sends to young black people across the UK. I think it sends a message

My grandson is 16, awaiting his GCSE results. And one of his goals has been Cambridge or Oxford

And Cambridge first. I'm not quite sure why, but Cambridge first. And I think the message from me to him

is very different today following what's happened. Oh, no, really? I think..

As in be careful, or maybe... maybe limit your expectations a bit

or review your expectations. Yeah, is this the place that deserves you? Is this the place to an aspiring young 41-year-old man

But that's another point. But also, I think there's this issue about

this acknowledgement about confusion of whether there is an issue about race. It's blatantly obvious

There's no issue here, Margaret. No, not here. I'm saying generally, will people still question the issue

Assistants always argue that this isn't about race, don't they? Yes, but race is always in the room

And the fact that it can be bought up again and it is not given short shrift is a concern to me

I mean, the fact that the person who's been the main architect or the driving architect or the initial architect of this

has been somebody who is well documented, has been having his own contract terminated by Cambridge

and is a leading light. I don't know whether anybody's seen. um there's a reel with him and dr david scarty talking about their pleasure in what they've done

to di and i did i think that was before jason died wasn it no they both on there talking no i know but it was it was it was about the resignation and the and the you know the disgracing of Jason They were talking They weren reveling in his actual death No but they reveling I just need to be that clear because not everybody seen it Margaret

To be honest, I haven't, but I just double... Yeah. I was going to clarify that

But the point is, one of the main leaders, it comes from that ilk and that mentality

He has nothing good, and therefore, I think the context matters. The fact that he was a significant driver of his views around DEI and then dismissed from Cambridge and then attacks a black appointed professor is not a surprise

But that's another point. But you talk quite a lot about gleefulness

Yes. And I want to suggest that parts of the media have pursued this story of gleefulness

and therefore that gleefulness and therefore they bear some responsibility for the climate that's been created around this

And it's not an option that, you know, we shouldn't, anybody else's names have been mentioned

Those journalists from the Times, the Mail, the Spectator, all of them have a role to play

have a responsibility for what's happened and for the debate that we're all having now

And lastly, I just want to touch on one. I think I will agree with you by the end of the week

And I'm glad to see you're shifting because I think I've always, you're one of the few people I listen to

and I always found you to share. Just when you do what I do, it turns into a game of tennis

So I list the names now and then they all attack me

and then I attack them back and they all attack me and does it really help anybody in the great scheme of things

I think it's a fairer playing field. Okay. It broadens the debate and discussion about the roles of the test

Well, who do you think's been particularly disgusting? I think you're splitting hairs

All right. No, fine. Well, listen, I reserve the right. I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll thank you for that. And I don't, just to clarify one thing, I think you might have misunderstood me slightly. And if you have, then I suspect lots of people have. Not for a minute suggesting that the press haven't played a part in what's happened to Jason

And I'm just saying that with regard to broadcasting in the context of suspected suicides

even the Samaritans advise very strongly against attributing it to a single thing

because it's reductivist and often wrong and, of course, dangerous. So that's the only thing I'm being cautious of, Margaret

I want you to know that on a personal, never mind a professional level, because I don't want to indulge in things that the Samaritans advise against

when it comes to discussing some of these issues. But I don't think that the British media, both print and broadcast, has ever been more gleeful in its pursuit of somebody than I saw in this case, even more so than with Caroline Flack or maybe Meghan Markle, actually

But I guess she has much stronger support structures around her. Yeah. And one final point I want to make

All the points you want. About public interest. I mean public interest is about reviewing and exposing wrongdoing but it's also about protecting

the public and holding power to account but what the what's it's been used in this context is about

humiliation is that the task has been to humiliate him and it's been disproportionate I mean I think

it's been said by others proportionate to what it is alleged he's done and even where it's been

said that he has had I mean like anybody who's done a degree or a master's they will know we've

all got um sightings wrong and putting the wrong page and not put them in text and out of text

and all of those things may true may be true but to this degree to this extent and what does it say

about our society that when somebody makes a mistake or somebody generally has has done something

incorrectly is that the way we address it what's the message there where's the kindness in the world

well there isn't any you know something it takes and it takes one person's

sacrifice for us to stop what will happen over the next few weeks

there'll be a silencing of all those organisations and people that made those statements

there'll be a disappearing and this time next week, two weeks time we won't talk about it

we'll forget it and it's how do we keep that in mind

and I want to say one final thing there is a vigil for him

in Leicester Square and I think Is it Leicester or Trafalgar? They can show their respect, their support

their commitment to the family, and they're interested. It's a way of

saying to the wider society... I think it's Trafalgar Square. Leicester Square. Is it Leicester

Square? Okay. No, sorry, you might be right. I always get my Trafalgar by Leicester. It's the first time for everything, Margaret

I'll double-check on that. Thank you for keeping the extra hour of

debating... It's a flipping act. In the great scheme of things, it's nothing, isn't it? But it meant I get to listen

to you, so that's a reason to have done it. Well, just before you go

what sort of impact did he have on the room when he was conducting that workshop

he was he held the room beautifully not with with care with

with pace with he was beguiling he was engaging he was funny but not

funny with intelligence with strength it was I felt really proud sitting there and when I went

listening to him talk when he finished I said to him, thank you so much

You're sending such a positive message to young people. And we shared a joke about the role of mothers in being where we are

And I thought, I went home, I bought, got him, you know, the speaker who was the main speaker, I signed his book

and I went to look for him, but he'd left. And I went back and told my grandson about this young, black

Arnaian heritage young man who was the first. And he said, oh, I think I've heard about him

And I said, that will be you one day. and I think now I have to write a different story for my grandson

I call other people. What are you going to tell him about Jason now? I'm going to tell him all the things that I saw and heard

but I'm going to remind him what I think every black child already knows

that you have to work twice as hard, you will be challenged, you will be questioned

you will be doubted. You have to be clear in your ambition. You have to work harder than anybody else

but you must do your best and you must keep that sense of humility

but you must also be kind because there a level of ignorance from those who because of their own experience of why they come to you with those beliefs that understanding because it their own experience

And it's a bit like hate to cry out religion. It's a bit about that thing about not knowing what they do

and that's what I think people do not understand what it can possibly what it's like to be a young

particularly black man in the UK making your way through life it is not an easy road

thank you there's a James Baldwin quote you probably know it that I found myself looking at a bit

this morning is I imagine one of the reasons people cling to their hates so stubbornly is

because they sense once hate is gone, they will be forced to deal with pain

Yes. Yes. Yes. Thank you for that. Joey DeGroo is a very good American, black American professor

who talks about trauma and race, and the experience of racism has impacted white people

just as much as black people, because in order to inflict that

you have to experience that yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's another one to bear in mind. Thank you, Margaret. An awful lot of people thanking you as well, personally, for what you've brought to the programme today. It is now 12.45

James O'Brien on LBC. 12.48 is the time. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC

That vigil that was just referred to is this evening at 6pm in Trafalgar Square

not Leicester Square. I think it's been organised by Stand Up to Racism

but it will be on the steps of the National Portrait Gallery if you're familiar with that part of London

if you're not and you're minded to attend. then you'll be able to work out as soon as you get there where people are convening

That's this evening at 6pm. It is 12.48. Here's the thing. You have to be a little bit careful, moving too quickly into comparisons

But you know the story of Frank Abagnale, right? You saw the film Catch Me If You Can

Did you? The Leonardo DiCaprio film. He was, I mean, an absolutely extraordinary liar

con man, whatever you want to call it. It's interesting that Simon Woolley said about Jason

that he never stole a bag of crisps. This guy forged millions in checks

As a teenager, he pretended to be a pilot, he pretended to be a doctor. He lied about being a pilot, a doctor, a legal prosecutor

Even when the semi-autobiographical book was published, there were heavily, heavily disputed claims in it

that many people have questioned subsequently. So he may even have been lying about lying

And you know what happened to him? They made a film about him starring Leonardo DiCaprio

But hey, you keep sending me texts saying it's got nothing to do with racism. Dean's in Newcastle. Dean, what would you like to say

Good afternoon, James. Thanks for taking my call. Hello, James. James, do you mind if I read out something

I wrote something in memory of Jason Arday. Do you mind if I read it out

No, of course not. Okay, so. I only met Professor Jason Arday once

It was last year when he visited Newcastle University for an event titled Science Order Times

I attended alone and sat amongst a packed auditorium in the Herschel Building

In recent years, I've come to admire the world of academia, particularly when I encounter black academics

I appreciate the barriers they have had to overcome and continue to face while navigating the overwhelmingly white spaces that still exist within academia

What struck me about Professor Arday was his extraordinary ability to communicate with such a vast and diverse audience

People of different ages, backgrounds, ethnicities, and yet somehow make you feel as though he was speaking directly to you

His delivery was warm. His presence was comforting. His intellect was undeniable, and his style was uniquely his own

No suit, no tie, no waistcoat, just a clean blue Adidas tracksuit

Before leaving, I felt compelled to thank him personally. I told him how elated, empowered, and proud I felt

He had made me feel proud to be sitting there, absorbing his word while surrounded by a predominantly white audience

His talent was rare. His talent deserved to be celebrated. Instead, what followed was something that felt like a media lynching

And I have to ask, are we perfect? Of course not. Have we lied, embellished, exaggerated or made mistakes

I certainly have. So when did every mistake, every imperfection, every failure suddenly become a matter of public interest

I'll tell you when. When you're black and exigent. Because too often in the moment when a black person reaches a position of prominence

the microscope comes out, the scrutiny intensifies, the mistakes become headlines, the humanity

disappears. And when the opportunity comes to tear you down, they won't hesitate. The most painful

part is that from the outside it felt as though his vulnerability was known, yet the pylon

continued regardless. I will remember Jason Arday for the man I encountered that day, warm

intelligent, charismatic, inspirational and unapologetically himself. For those few hours he made a stranger sitting in

a crowded, predominantly white auditorium still seen, empowered and proud. That is the Jason Arday

I cheer to remember. Rest in eternal peace, Professor Arday. My thoughts are with you, your family

your loved ones, your friends. You deserve better. That was my piece

I know it was. Sorry. I just I'm lost for words. It's a bit of an occupational hazard in my job, Dean

Did you do anything with the things he taught you that day What did you take away from I took away his confidence

I took away his teachings. I mean, I'm not diagnosed autistic. However, you know, I..

My type of learning, I'm the type of guy that... that if I learn by having to repeat reading

like if it could be one page, and for it to stick in my head, I'll need to read it 10 times

So I would say that I've got, I don't know if it's delayed learning, however, I know that it takes much more effort

for me to learn and to retain information. And for the way that Professor Arday

presented himself and spoke with clarity and confidence, for me, that's a massive deal for me

because in recent years, I have done public speaking. I would still say that I'm a novice at it

However, I have improved. And I have since performed a talk after Jason Arde

or my experience with Jason Arde. And I took the way that he presented himself

I took that on board. And I tried to, if anything, imitate that

especially his calmness and the way that he can connect with the audience

You know, not looking down at my paper or my notes and lifting my head up and looking left or right and engaging

and looking into people's eyes and, you know, just getting that general feel from the crowd

That, for me, was empowering. Blimey. You know what that is, don't you

Go ahead. That's a legacy, Dean. Yeah, I would say absolutely You know, and

It really affected me, James I'm not going to lie, I mean on Friday night

I was actually having a really good evening I was socialising and then

As you do, you look at your phone And then you see the news And the rest of my evening it was

It was damage control And then the following day As I do, I go to the gym in the morning

And when I go to the gym And I put on my tunes Sometimes I could be putting on some R&B

some soul, some easygoing music. You know, because a lot of the time

people expect you to be having some hard hip-hop or some hard

rock and roll or whatnot. I can have a gym workout and I can be

listening to lovers rock. But on this particular morning it was some heavy

hip-hop and I had an angry workout. It's the first time in a long time that

I'm having an angry workout and I'm also fighting back tears because at the time that I was working

that it was six in the morning. so the gym was relatively empty

and I was fighting back tears while I was training. That's how much it impacted me

because he's not the only one who I know that's suffered this type of treatment

One of you earlier quarters spoke about Wayne Brown. I am a colleague of Wayne Brown

or former Wayne Brown. So it really did hit home and it still does hit home

I don't know if anyone will ever be able to express what you've just expressed more powerfully than you did

I really don't. And more personally as well. You honour his memory. You really do

I almost don't want to ask you this, so just hang up if you don't want to answer it

But how did you process the realisation that some of the stuff that he'd said

and some of the stuff on his CV and some of the claims that he'd made were not true

I'm not going to lie It is You know It's not easy to process No

But then I asked the question Okay I know in my time

As an adult I have Embedded spots of my life And I look back

And I ask myself Why There's been times I wanted to fit in Gosh

There's been times That I've thought That I'm not enough Now you know

you can have pathological liars who just lie as a hobby but i don't think anybody's asked the

question as to why or what made jason you know say certain parts of his life that he

accomplished this or he accomplished that we all know that he had autism yeah i can't tell you how

severe that was i don't know him personally i've only met him the once sure but why did what why

have i chose in the past to embarrass part of my life or to add that extra detail that didn't quite

actually happen why because i recognized that i wanted to fit in you know so i don't think it's

just straightforward he said this he said that that wasn't true or that was entirely correct or

whatnot i think we need to be asking the questions where was he mentally because quite clearly we all

know that james jason arday was a vulnerable young man and i just feel that not the right questions

or the the right question has been asked you know yes he came across at the university very

confident, but again, I can put on the front. And I know that I can be quite good at it, but

I know deep down inside, I'm really not the most confident guy in the room. Trust me, I am not

But I know that I can put on the front. That's incredible

Seriously. And I'm very grateful to you personally, as well as on behalf of all my listeners

It is coming. I mean, you do his memory proud. You really do

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