The PM took questions and actually answered them| James O'Brien - The Whole Show

It's three minutes after ten. A very good morning indeed to you

If you're just tuning in, the Prime Minister, and I suppose if you've been on holiday or something

you might be surprised to learn the Prime Minister is Andy Burnham. Andy Burnham's now the Prime Minister

The 17th in the last two weeks that we've had, or something like that

He is poised, as we speak, to deliver a speech. I think he is visiting a care home somewhere in London

and he is poised to deliver a speech about his plans for social care

I forgot to do it the other day. We should have got a little clip of Boris Johnson

standing, I think, on the metaphorical steps of Downing Street insisting that he had an oven-ready plan for fixing social care

and he was going to enact it immediately, I suppose, if you were to make excuses for him

which much of the British media continues to do, of course. You could point out that they may have been scuppered by COVID, but that wouldn't explain why the plan was never revealed

So what do you think Burnham's going to do today? Do you think he's going to actually outline a feasible, workable, plausible plan

Or at least put in motion a process that will deliver one

It looks that way because Louise Casey is, I think, the lady who is going to be leading this initial stage

Or is he going to do a Boris Johnson and just promise that he'll fix it, but he can't tell you when, and there is a brilliant plan, but it goes to a different school

It's a reminder, isn't it, of the fact that Prime Minister after Prime Minister after Prime Minister has promised to fix this

Aren't we a weird old bunch? We were talking yesterday about our interest in issues and why it waxes and wanes and why it can be high and low and why some things that aren't objectively very interesting might fascinate us more than things that are obviously more objectively interesting, like our own mortality or the fate of our species

I was asking, in case you weren't listening, why I am personally so tempted to look away

from the wildfires in France and Spain at the moment. A very, very, very powerful piece of radio

as a consequence of asking you that question. But why are we suddenly all obsessing about social care again

Is it a tradition almost? Is it like putting tinsel up at Christmas

We get a new prime minister, we all start talking about social care. I mean, it isn't, of course, because it's what they do

Theresa May was arguably scuppered by social care. And I spent one day earlier this week utterly bamboozled by why

Because it doesn't make sense that Theresa May was undone by her proposals to social care

which were, from any angle, if you were motivated by a desire to spend less of your own money on your own social care

Hers were an improvement upon what went before. The amount of money you were allowed to keep, however much you had

went up from 23,000 to 100,000. Now, look, admittedly, some people are going to end up spending nearly a million or more

and it's scant consolation to them. But objectively and mathematically, the number that you were allowed to keep went up

So why was everyone so furious about it? Why did it essentially undermine her electoral ambitions

I know there was something in there about also accommodating social care when it happens at home

as opposed to only residential social care. But in my memory, that was not what everybody was getting really angry about

And it was suggested to me by somebody who understands these things, these matters

that it was actually another road that leads back to Boris Johnson of all people, would you believe

And the reason why the right-wing media turned that proposal into such a controversy

was because in order to launch a putsch against Theresa May and deliver the one true Brexit

Boris Johnson needed her to become unpopular. And she wasn't. I think she's possibly a media conspiracy theory too far

But that was the theory as explained to me and as apparently espoused by some former allies of Theresa May's

that the real reason it failed was because Boris Johnson's people successfully turned it into a much hotter potato than it ever should have been

And if you think I'm exaggerating, then remember that when... Who was the guy that got done for lobbying

And then instead of making him stand subject to parliamentary standards rules

they had a kind of gathering at the Garrick Club, all these sort of telegraph Tory figures

and sort of tried to come up with a plan to save him

after he had been found to have breached the standards, breached the rules

They offered, they wanted, I think Jacob Rees-Mogg was involved, they wanted to rip up the rule book rather than see one of their own

held to account by the rules that everybody else had to abide by

So it is not beyond the wit of man, it is not beyond all possibility that that theory of Theresa May was correct

I can tell you that Yvette Cooper is currently addressing the assembled throngs

Baroness Louise Casey is present Yvette Cooper doing the introductions and then she will introduce Baroness Louise Casey

followed by the Prime Minister Andy Burnham it was Owen Paterson Craig

thank you great stuff we should probably get the clip while we're at it

of Boris Johnson announcing that he had an oven ready social care pan in approximately 2017

yes Owen Paterson they sort of set up the Save Owen Paterson Society

when he should really have been held to account for his own misdeeds

I think we'll take Louise Casey as well. I'll be interested to hear what she has to say, and she is one of those rare figures in British public life

who is almost always worth listening to. That gives you some hope that Andy Burnham

has made the right appointment here. And speaking of hope, if you're looking for something to read

while you listen to the Prime Minister's speech, my newspaper column today in the I

addresses precisely that line that I've shared with you a billion times from the old film Clockwise

I can deal with the despair, Laura. it's the hope that gets me

and that is how I am currently feeling about Andy Burnham as you will know if you've been party to the

Bob, the Burnham Optimism Barometer which kicks in every Monday and allows us just to take a little bit of a reading

of whether or not this new Prime Minister's excellent beginning is sustaining the optimism

that he originally generated so far I would say so good So we'll listen to Baroness Casey, we'll listen to Andy Burnham

we'll listen to Andy Burnham answering questions from the media, and then we'll have a conversation

And what that conversation will involve will depend partly on what we actually hear. It is likely to address something that we did not address yesterday

If you were listening yesterday, how surprised were you when I told you that the split was more or less 50-50

It's actually 51-49. It's almost the infernal ratio. But when you look at the social care budget, only 49% of it is spent on the elderly

51% of it is spent on what normal people call working-age adults

So, you know, post-18, pre-pension. And that means that they have got disabilities and debilitating conditions that necessitate care mostly most of which will be provided by family members in a financial situation that is parlous absolutely parlous

And we've not talked about that. And that's weird, right? Because what's the question

Or what's the phrase I always use when I'm talking about residential care for elderly relatives

What's the phrase I always use? Come on, all together now. It is a subject about which you know nothing until you need, altogether now, to know everything

But why have we only talked about that in the context of dementia or debilitation due to advancing years

What happens if you get hit by the metaphorical bus and survive

What happens if you suddenly need social care in your own home, never mind residential

or what actually happens then. That also, surely, is a subject about which

you know nothing until you need to know everything. And it's always missing

Is it a bit like, and this is going to be a bit of a reach, so frankly, I hope Louise Casey gets up soon

because I might regret opening this particular thought process, but is it a bit like the conversation we had yesterday about wildfires

So you know you're going to get old, and you know you're probably, it's about a one in ten chance that you're going to get dementia

so you're going to know someone to whom it happens but you don't want to contemplate the possibility

of being brought low yourself, medically you talk about dementia, you're mostly thinking about someone else

when you ring into the show you're telling me about someone else

which means that when you're listening to the show you're thinking about someone else

you're wondering whether it will happen to your nan or whether it will happen to your dad but when you look at

disability and support for people with disabilities and debilitating conditions, you should really be thinking about you

And here is Dame Louise, Louise Casey, Baroness. I found myself here and I'm slightly daunted by it

which is unusual for me, they will tell you. The first thing I wanted to say is it just means a great deal

that there are some people here today that started this journey with us 18 months ago

people with lived experience who are here today it means so much actually to me and to the whole

team and to colleagues across government that um i don't know i feel like a new day is starting

and that um for the last 18 months we have heard listened and been open to the fact that people are

living in such difficult circumstances. And sometimes they're living in those difficult circumstances

because the state, we, public services, make it harder. And actually, perhaps we could do some stuff to make it slightly easier

even if we just recognise the fact that dementia is a disease and that people live with it and maybe we could do more about it

And some of the asks I think we have are actually quite modest. And some of the asks we are going to have will not be

I'm just checking at Secretaries of State and Prime Ministers, will not be quite so modest

But anyway, today, I think Secretary of State for Health, Yvette, quite rightly, pointed out for the last 27 years, there's been 22 reviews

Colleagues in my team have done a deep dive into all of those reviews. And we know that one of the things that nobody got right is actually a conversation, an involvement

It's not a consultation, it's an involvement with the general public on where we are as

a country right now. It's an extraordinary country when we set up the National Health Service and the rest

of the welfare state after the war, nobody ducked doing really big, difficult things

And I find ourselves 50 years later with a population that has 12 million of us that

are already over the age of 67. We've got a fast growing group of people that are working age disabled

But off the barometer is the fact that we have hospitals that have huge numbers of frail

elderly people in them that simply never needed to be there in the first place

They're absorbing frankly and they feel bad about it. I've got lived experience myself with this

The last thing they want to do is take. The last thing they want to do is be a bother

The last thing they want to do is end up in hospital. So if we did a better job before, we would never have to have an after

It's a privilege to be here in Jewish care again this morning. This is a different job that I'm in, but I'm back here in Jewish care

And to be honest, if you had a chance, you should take a look around and think, isn't

this what we would want for people? People still living in their homes and getting support and help so they're able to stay in

their homes. And at the point they can no longer stay in their homes

living their home, not a project, not a hostel, but a home with people that will look after

them for the rest of their time. So it's an absolute privilege

The thing I'm meant to do, sorry, is we are launching the most important thing

There's always going to be a problem with me, isn't there? Sorry, Pippa. Today, everyone, we are launching the big conversation on care

Okay. We could completely screw it up. Don't clap me yet

The key thing here is that all the previous 22 reviews might have had an idea they consulted against

if I'm being tough around the edges, but nobody had the big conversation

What does care mean? Who should get it? What should you do as a family

How much could you do for yourself and how do we get this right? And then when does the state step in

And more importantly, at some point for all the politicians, who pays? But actually, who pays is a personal thing

There are people out there right now in this country paying huge amounts of money towards their care

and we shouldn't forget that. So anyway, the big conversation is, I think, going to be the game changer

that tries to renegotiate the social contract, I think is what people would say, with the public

and then help us as a country work out together how we can fix and solve this big problem

And I would just say, as a woman who worked during the pandemic, can I just remind everybody that nobody thought we could get everybody in off the streets

Everyone did. So we can do difficult in this country, and we can do it well

And that's partly why it is my absolute pleasure and honour indeed to introduce the Prime Minister

who is also the son of a dad who has Alzheimer's and is therefore completely

a continent of the difficulties and challenges in daily life. And now he's our Prime Minister

It's my absolute pleasure to introduce Andy Burnham. Thank you. Good morning everyone Thank you so much Lovely Welcome there I just looking around the room I see a lot of faces who been on this journey with me for a long time Many of you you know who you all are You probably got a feeling of deja vu don you

You've probably got that, but don't have that because this time we're going to do it, right

We're going to do it. You don't take anything on without doing it, do you, Louise? So

let's make sure we do. And lots of new faces as well. Fantastic to be with you all this morning

I was going to speak from notes, but for the reasons Louise just gave, you can't, can you

You can't speak from notes. I've just got to speak from the heart when it comes to this issue, because it is very, very personal for me right now and for my family

we've kind of lived it in the last few years from the inside and the only thing you can do is

talk from that what's why you can't do this job in my view without bringing all of that

to it and kind of then using that emotion if you like to kind of make the change and be brave in

making in making that change and that's what I that's what I intend to do as I'm going to explain

there's lots I can say about what's wrong with the system I will come to that but I want to start

with what's good about the system because sometimes when we talk about social care we don't do that

enough do we and I see so much good in terms of the journey that that we've been on and I am

talking about the people who've cared for my dad hundreds of them we've seen and we've we've watched

you know when someone in your family is receiving care you look at everything through new eyes don't

you you notice things that maybe you didn't notice before because you watch it so closely and so

carefully and I've just been really I don't know overwhelmed by their their care the skill

in what they do the professionalism it really is incredible and it's humbling to watch them

caring for someone else's dad or someone else's mum. If you think about that, you know, bringing all of that to the care of someone else's relative

it's just an incredible thing, isn't it? To me, they should be the best paid people in society, not the worst

And, you know, I just start with that feeling. And I am talking, I need to say this, because, you know

many people from other countries have been caring for my dad. I want those carers to know we appreciate you

We appreciate what you are doing to support people here. And that really matters that I say that as well

There is so much to be proud of. I mentioned the skill and the care and the professionalism

I watch sometimes how people communicate with my dad and they're able to capture a moment of the old character

It kind of just will come out because of the way they draw in the conversation

And that is an amazing talent to have. But also moving from a wheelchair to an armchair or from there to a bed without distress or discomfort

It is incredibly demanding and skillful what they do. And that needs to be recognised

I also want to recognise the good organisations, care organisations in all sectors

sectors. And as Louise said, we are really lucky to be in one today. I visited Jewish

care here in Enfield with the Member of Parliament, Sarah, 10 years ago, just about. And I remember

thinking, well, this is the gold standard. This is how it should be. And we're lucky

to have a sister organisation in Manchester called the Fed, leader of Bury Council here

today, chair of the LGA. He knows what I mean when I say that's whole person care, Eamon

isn't it when when you you know it when you see it and you see it there at the fed you see it here

at jewish care i see it at the faith-based charity who run my dad's care home i see i see the same i

see good in in all sectors and let's celebrate the good in social care before we turn to the things

that we know need to be better and before we then say and how have we got to this position when it

comes to the bad, I think there's only one group really to blame and that's my generation

of politicians. It's almost 30 years since the Royal Commission on Social Care. 30 years

And in that time, what did Yvette say? 22 reviews. I mean, it's a major dereliction of public duty

that Parliament has not faced up to this, of all challenges, something so fundamental to life as this

It's shameful, to be honest, that politicians have put point scoring before fixing this issue

But that's what's happened. It's created a feeling in Westminster that this is too difficult

And if you take it on, you're taking on too big a political risk. How come we've got to a position where it's too difficult to fix the basic care that we give to each other, that fellow human beings receive

I mean, how has Parliament got itself to that position? And there is something here that is a test for the political and the media culture in this country when it comes to this issue

How it's spoken about, how it's reported. It's for everybody. Everybody needs to take on board what is being launched today with this big conversation

because I think everybody needs to engage in it responsibly, needs to remember who they are talking about

what they are talking about, the people who work within it, and to do it respectfully and to do it accurately

I just think that's a really important starting point and I feel I need to say that

Because the current situation, frankly, is bad for everybody. It's certainly bad for the people

who don't get the care that they need. It's estimated today, in England, around 2 million adults have unmet care needs

Now, think about that for a moment and what that means. I can, again, certainly attest from family experience that it's too hard for the family carers

And the leader of the Liberal Democrats, Ed Davey, was quite right to talk about that on the radio this morning

and say how important it is that we see people struggling in their homes

looking after a partner or a relative. It can break people if they're kind of left without that support that they need

In fact, it does break people. And that needs to be recognised

It needs to be recognised that people can see everything they've worked for

wiped out by the costs of care. Hundreds of thousands of pounds can just disappear paying for care

Adults with disabilities will say that they face very unfair care charges just to live their life That needs to be recognised And let me come back to the staff Doing what they do on poverty pay i been made aware of somebody homeless in a working in a care setting living

out of a mobile home just again think about that how can we enable those staff to give a real sense

of security to the people they're looking after if they do not have it in their own lives and it

makes what they do all the more remarkable that they do care in the way that they do

But we cannot take them for granted and we must not do that

So it's bad for everybody in this but it's also bad for the National Health Service and

let me just say something about that. Again, I've had experience in the system as it currently is, which is trying to give out

care in 15 minute slots because honestly that's all the councils say that they can afford for

many people. It's fine if the needs are moderate and you can complete the task within that

time slot but what if they're not? What if the needs become moderate or severe and you

try and carry out everything within 15 minutes? I can tell you from experience that that can

be a recipe for quite significant chaos if you are not careful. And it leaves the staff

in a really difficult position because often what they are told, if they have a problem

and they can't complete what they're doing, ring 999. Ring 999. And I heard a few kind

of yeses in the audience and a few nods. I know, and I'm saying this, there'll be people

watching who know what I'm talking about. That can be a really frightening experience because

it often isn't the case that that person needs hospitalisation. In fact, you could say it's the

worst place for them to end up. But once that process is underway, it's very difficult to stop

the drag of the system into hospital and then everything that comes from that. That's

bad for the NHS too and the staff who work there. It's a lose-lose situation because often people

then spend a long time in A&E, a long time in hospital, but then fit to be discharged and can't

be discharged. It just is a pressure that the NHS struggles to meet. And look at it in the numbers. today

or on the latest figures about 6 million people just there or thereabouts

over 65 are going to A&E every year, now some of those will be from

social care settings, if you go back to 2010 it was about half, roughly

3 million, so you can see that change in that period last month 13,600

people were deemed medically fit to be discharged but couldn't be. That was in an average across

the month in England. 3,000 people every single day receiving corridor care. Corridor care

The trade unions now are monitoring corridor care. Do you remember there was a time when that was

what you called the winter pressures? Well, these are year-round now and staff in the NHS are trying

to deal with those pressures every single day. And there's growing talk of burnout amongst NHS

staff because the pressure they are trying to deal with is simply too great. And it's not sustainable

If you think about all of those things, then you know the NHS cannot carry on in that position. And

let's not have a conversation about social care as though it lives in its own silo. It doesn't live

in its own silo. It's intrinsically linked to the National Health Service and what happens

there. When I left office as Health Secretary, it wasn't all my doing, but 98% of people

there or thereabouts were going through A&E within four hours. If you look at that figure

today, it's about 75%. And there is just no way that we can restore the NHS to the standards

that we would all want to see without fixing this issue. We can't do it. So we need to

face up to it with a new determination. We need to bring our best game to this, and not

the sort of stock in trade of Westminster, business as usual, and just finding a reason

to score points rather than actually face up to what's involved here, given that it involves

So many vulnerable people, so many underpaid staff and so many under pressure people in

our national health service. We need to bring the best of us to solving this issue because it affects all of us in

one way or another. So that brings me then to what I want to announce today

Three announcements and you've already got a flavour of some of them but this is what

I've decided to do coming into office to bring things forward. The first thing is to ask

Baroness Casey Louise to bring forward her review by a year. So working with Yvette and

with Angela and other colleagues, we want to expedite that review. We ideally want to

do it even sooner, but we've got to be realistic. But if we say a year from now that we have

that independent review, then I think we can rise to this challenge with the urgency it

requires. So that's the first announcement. And let me also just say something about what

I want that review to address. I go back to what we proposed in 2010, and Phil Hope was

Minister at that time. A national care service. A national care service. Well, why do we talk about

that? Because we need to talk about a system that can become highly integrated with the NHS

Social care is different. It has to be person-centered. If it's not person-centered, like

the brilliant care provided here at Jewish Care, then it won't be what people would recognize

as social care. You don't want to over-medicalize care. But it has to be very integrated

with the rest of the system. It has to be preventative in its character

It has to be person-centred. And that's what we're asking Louise to give us her report on

How do we deliver a national care service in England that sits alongside the National Health Service

works in a similar way, that is highly integrated, and can optimise the journey of a patient

If a patient's leaving home to hospital, back as quickly as possible and there's no delay

We also then ask for a principle of home care wherever possible so that we have an approach

that supports people where they should be and often where they want to be rather than

ending up in a hospital bed. So how do we deliver a national care service? And there

are different ways of doing it. You could do the fully fledged version or you could do

a lesser version and you could do something in between and then you have the question of how you

pay for all of those options but that's the stuff of the review and the big conversation will feed

that review and again I would ask everybody to engage with it in that way. The second announcement

is to immediately and not wait for the review focus on the social care workforce. We already

have a situation where the government has agreed a fair pay agreement for social care staff to come

in financial year 2028-29 and that is a major step forward and I pay tribute to Keir Starman

the Prime Minister, as was when that was brought forward. That is a massive building block of a

National Care Service. And what I'm going to ask the ministerial group led by Yvette, Angela and

John Healy joining too, will be to look at how we turn the fair pay agreement into a bigger reform

to improve the social care workforce, to lift it up, to lift it closer to NHS standards. In fact

to integrate it more with the NHS workforce and actually to start to think about progression

routes for young people coming into social care so they can progress from social care

into NHS positions as well and think about it as one workforce

We will not get the care service we all want until we improve the strength and the capability

of care at the very front of the service. That means lifting up the social care workforce

as best we possibly can. Yes, in terms of pay, but also in terms of training and the

wider support we give them, the security of their roles. That is the commitment I'm giving

today. That is an essential enabler of the reform that we wish to see

The third announcement is to start right now initiating cross-party talks on social care

And yes, I have been here before. And yes, I do have some of the scars of that

But it's the right thing to do. I stood on the steps of Downing Street just a few days ago and I said I wanted to create a new way of doing politics in this country

More problem solving, less point scoring. And this is the first big test of that. And I mean what I say. We won't fix this through politics as usual. We have to bring a different approach

and I'm really pleased that today I've invited both of the main parties that have written to me

to start those talks and they will begin later today. And the thing is, you know me and you know what I've said on this issue in the past

if you were to search what I've said about social care, you will see it all and you will

well, some of you are writing stories about what I've said and I stand by what I've said

But here's the point. Ed Davey was right about this this morning. We're all going to have to give and take here, aren't we, if we're going to get to a solution. We're all going to have to listen to each other, something we don't do particularly well in politics, actually engage and listen to other perspectives

We're going to have to find common ground here. If this is to be a lasting solution, it requires common ground to be found

And then ultimately you would hope a new social consensus can emerge about social care

So all of that is required if we are to get there

And that process starts today. It will run alongside the other streams of work that we are doing

But I will work closely with the other parties who want to be involved to have that conversation

But what I would say in closing is I'm not going to be deflected by the point scoring or the screaming headlines that comes out of that point scoring

You know that is what has set back social care And I come back to this point about the political culture of this country and the media culture of this country if we're trying to shut down

down the fact that you have a serious debate about an issue like this, if that's what that

is trying to do, well, it's shame on all of us if we let that happen. If we say, well

I'm not brave enough then to go into that. Well, I'm just not going to kind of do that

in my time in office. I am making this a test of myself, whether I can bring forward a solution

And that is what I want to do. I would never forgive myself ever. Who knows how long I will

be in this position, but as long as I am, I will do my best to find a solution. And I

would never forgive myself if I left without having tried because of some of the headlines

that will inevitably appear and some of the efforts that some people will make to create

scare stories about the whole issue. Well, you can't create scare stories when people

are already scared by what they're seeing anyway, through their own eyes in their own

homes or in care homes. You can't create scare stories for the staff when they're kind of

living the life that they have to live, they cannot see it anyway. And you know, you can

have as many headlines as you like about this tax or something else, but when people are

losing hundreds of thousands of pounds, everything they've worked for, well, what about them

And it seems that those stories don't really often think about the people who've already

lost far, far more than that indeed almost lost everything. So that's the way I'm coming

at it and no doubt more of those headlines will appear. But I'm just going to be really

clear about this. I'm going to stick this out. I'm going to back Louise 100% in what

she is doing and her review. I'm going to back Yvette, Angela and all of the ministerial

team as we face up to this together. We're going to do it with strength. We're going

to do it with resolution. I'm going to work and reach out with the other political parties

and that's not just a kind of passing statement today, that's a commitment that I'm making

today. And why am I going to do it? Why am I going to do all of those things for my dad

and the millions like him up and down the country? Thank you very much

Thank you. Social care speech there from Andy Vernon

Time now for the Prime Minister to take, I think, about half a dozen questions from assembled members of the media

We'll stay with that. I'm standing here on my own, going to take questions. I was hoping that the cavalry might..

No, I'm really joking. Alison Hull, I've got first from the BBC

Alison. we've we've had plenty of cross-party talks before as you know all too well what are you

going to do differently this time which will lead to a different result and if i may today's short

notice talks Some have called them a show Are they And can you get meaningful change before the next election and more points scoring

I think in terms of what will be different this time, Alison, if I look back to that experience that I had as Health Secretary in the 2005-2010 Parliament

we probably left the reform too late in that parliament and it got too close to a general

election and learning from that that's why I'm bringing forward one of the reasons why

I'm bringing forward Louise's review because I think it's better to do it

sooner and further away from an election and that answers another story for the media doesn't it

that there's no election on the horizon. I think it's best to deal with it early

and to listen, because often what we can do is then drop a solution out late

Engage now. Don't have cross-party talks when a solution is emerging, again, which is what we did back then

Build it with people. So do it now. Get people in now

and start talking, understanding the different perspectives. I don't know whether it's possible

to find agreement. But let's give it a try. You mentioned late notice

Well, I had two approaches at the weekend. Would I, I had a letter from the leader of the opposition

and from the leader of the Liberal Democrats. Would I engage? And so, well, I said yes, you know

So I don't think it's, when I've been asked, I was only responding to that ask

But I'm glad that we will have those talks today with the Shadow Health Secretary

and the leader of the Liberal Democrats. But it's just the start

And no, it's not for show. How could it be, given what I've said this morning? This is huge for me. I know that this will require me to put what political capital I have on the table. And it could be, it could sort of wear down that political capital in some ways. But I'm prepared to do it. I'm prepared to do it. Because this has gone on too long. The risks of failing to act are too great

Thank you. Rebecca Barry from ITV. Probably should keep this with me, shouldn't I

ITV News has revealed some shocking failures in social care. You saw that in our report that was broadcast just last night

Can the government realistically transform social care without raising taxes? Well, I would start by saying this is a question of standards within organisations

and we're in one today that meets the highest standards and we praise Lord Levy and all of the team here

but we also know that care is variable across different organisations. There's good in all sectors, I said that at the start

but there's profiteering in this sector as well and there is unnecessary and dangerous cost-cutting at times

on the backs of vulnerable people and that is fundamentally unacceptable And I'm pleased that ITV has exposed some of that poor practice in recent days

Is it possible? I think more is possible from within existing resources

And the things that I've talked about today, particularly around the workforce, will be fully funded

So let me just be clear about that. I think it is possible from existing budgets to do much more

I mentioned that whole thing of people coming into hospital unnecessarily from social care settings, then having a long length of stay in hospital as a result of that unnecessary admission, and then a long period where they're medically fit to leave but can't because the care is not available

Now that very last bit has been, I think it's been estimated, that costs the NHS around £2.5 billion a year

But if you add all of it up, you are talking several billion pounds a year is lost from the lack of a preventative front-end social care service that's well supported

So I think we owe it to the public. before we talk about tax rises, and I know Louise will help us with this

you first have to look the public in the eye and say, are we doing everything we can do from within what we've got

And I don't think we can say that because we've taken a different approach

to funding local government than we have to the NHS. But the effect of that has been just a pile of pressure on the NHS

and we haven't got the incentives right between the two. So I think firstly you have to do more with what you've got

But I think Louise indicated some of what we would want to do in the fullest sense

will require difficult decisions. But we will be honest with people about those

We will put them before the country at the right time. And we will hopefully proceed with people's consent

Next one. Sorry. It's Sam Coates. Looking right in. Sam Coates, Sky News

I was hoping to get your instinct on a couple of areas of the social care debate

Do you think that you can only get funded care if you've got assets of less than £23,250

Do you think that figure is now too low? And do you think the fact that 85% of care homes run on a for-profit basis

do you think that figure is too high? And I hope people in the room don't think that this is crass

But it's a linked topic that is linked in the minds of the public

What's your position on assisted dying? OK. £23,500, I think, is the threshold

So just so everyone watching knows, people are, whatever you've got, home pension savings

can be whittled right down to that floor. And that's why I talked before about hundreds of thousands of pounds being on the table

on the roulette table when people go into a later life and who knows what can happen

to any of us. I think social care in England is as unfair as American healthcare

The vulnerable pay with everything and it can completely leave them with nothing

And that flaw has been in place for a long, long time

And common sense says it can't be fair. Obviously, the Dilnot report looked at those issues, but we're 10 or more years on from Dilnot now

So, you know, those issues will have to be looked at. But it's not the case that the funding and the paying for social care is the only issue

As I've said before, there's a whole other set of issues here that have to be considered

I think the review should look at practice across the system and where the best care

is to be found. I'm not saying today that one sector is too big and therefore it will need to change

but we do have to be sure that there isn profiteering in the system I think that is where we absolutely draw the line There are good organisations in all sectors but what we cannot accept is money being taken out

And we actually do see that happening, not just in adult social care, we see it in children's

social care too. And I think we do need to make some changes there to answer the question

that I was answering for about making the most of the money that we've got. And then

And let me come to your third point, Sam, my position on assisted dying

I take the view that that debate, and I don't say that there shouldn't be a debate at some

point about those issues. Personally, I think there's something that needs to happen first, and that's the fixing

of the funding of palliative care and social care. I think it is very challenging to introduce that wider debate in a context of people not

receiving that care and having the peace of mind about that care

And that's the way I kind of see this and that's the position that I will stick to

Daniel next from The Telegraph. Hello Prime Minister. When you did your big conversation back in 2010, you came out very strongly in favour

of compulsory insurance. Is that still what you're minded to bring in? You also ruled

out tax rises. Is that something you can rule out now? And can I just ask another question

on defence? Can you commit to 3% on defence by 2030? Oh my goodness, that's getting your money's worth there, Daniel

So, I mean, I said before that I have views that are on the record

but life has moved on from when I was first looking at social care in 2010

We are in a difficult world from a financial point of view

And I would come back to what I said a moment ago. I can feel whatever I want to feel

but if I want to persuade others and get a cross-party consensus

you don't just go in and say it's got to be my way and that's it. because how do you persuade people? I think there are ways of looking at this that could include a

more voluntary approach initially or could include a road map to a reformed social care system

To come back to the tax point, I will stick to the manifesto. That is important. There is a

manifesto, there are commitments there on tax and I will stick to those commitments. When it comes

to defence. Obviously those commitments too relate to the Parliament after this one in

terms of our NATO commitments. I have been very clear that we will honour those commitments

It does mean being prepared to look at challenging issues. There is that challenge about young

people not in education, employment or training. I've shown a willingness this week to face up

to some of those issues and start looking about how we move to a situation when we're investing

in people's success rather than paying for failure. I think as a country at the moment we're doing the

latter. We're paying for failure and we're paying quite a lot actually for failure. I've talked

about the cost of that to the NHS in terms of failing to fund social care at the front end

but I think that's also true of young people. We don't have an education system that supports

young people who want technical qualifications. We don't do enough to support young people with

special educational needs and disabilities through the school system. Kids with mental

health challenges wait for months, even years to access that treatment. Then young people are going

on to benefits in their twenties. It's the same argument. We've got to start investing in

success and helping people succeed rather than paying for failure. And if we change

those things, then we will open up the way of meeting our commitments on defence

Millie from The Independent. Thank you, Prime Minister. Millie Cook from The Independent

Can you guarantee that people will no longer have to sell their homes to pay for care

And as you've acknowledged, you and others have tried to reform social care before

Looking back, what do you believe that you got wrong? And how should voters trust that this time will be different

in an ideal world i wouldn't want anybody to have to sell their their home to pay for care

um i think it's a really awful process for those who live through it you know the whole thing of

of uh children taking power of attorney and then dealing with parents finances i think the whole

thing is is horrendous for those who live through it and they see everything that their parents have

work for just whittled away in front of them. Paying for care that often isn't good enough

care in terms of what you would want for your mum and dad. So I think the system isn't right

and in an ideal world, no, I wouldn't want to see that. If I go back to what Daniel mentioned

and the proposals I put forward, it was intended to stop that. You know, if everybody on the NHS

principle contributed a little it would mean everyone could protect the majority of what

they'd worked for now i don't know i know the the mail probably in the telegraph doesn't support that

but i don't know what do people support that and this is the point what i got wrong as i said before

was going too close to a general election when there just wasn't time for those issues to breathe

and i do ask colleagues in the media again can we not let the country look at this in a quite

clear-eyed way without all of the hype and the sort of the overwriting of some of these issues

on this issue I just ask it again on this issue please can we have a factual debate can we allow

people to weigh up the different options that Louise might put forward and then just come to

a considered view based on those facts is that too much to ask I don't think it should be too much

to ask because I think the public will give us their view they'll make it really clear what they

feel they can accept and what they can't. But what we won't get to that point if there's all of this

stuff swirling around and everyone frightened about everything that just won't get us there

So we're all in this all in this together. But yeah I you know I learned from that experience

last time. I'm initiating cross party talks today rather than a few weeks before a general election

So you live and you learn as a politician but I hope that applies to everybody too

Let's do it better this time and it does apply to everybody. and I think have I got anyone else to call I'm just looking to oh um bear with me

oh sorry Chris yeah I see all the hands and I don't know if we're going into a wider quick Q&A

unfortunately thank you you you mentioned that one of the reasons why the previous 22 efforts

had failed that people were scared about headlines about tax is one of the aims of this national

conversation to explain to people what they stand to gain by reforming the current system and

therefore make them more willing to consider those trade-offs in terms of how you pay for

it. And you mentioned several different problems there. There's catastrophic costs that people

face to have to sell their homes. There's eligibility through means tests and other

criteria that means few people get the help And then there the quality of care which is provided by low paid workforce reliant on immigration Those are different challenges so which of those do you prioritise Well we look at them all in the round is what we do because I think one of the failures

again, going back to what we got wrong in the past, has been just to look at one element

of social care. Often, how do we pay for it, and how does it affect the individual? Those

are important issues, but it's not the whole story. You do have to look at the situation of

staff trying to provide it, the pressure on the NHS that results, you have to look at it all

in the round because actually some of the financial solutions may come from doing things differently

and unlocking the unproductive spending that we have in other parts of the system

The issue is whether the big conversation will be allowed to open up these issues

That's why I was looking to Louise to see whether she wanted to come back up and just say something on this. The big conversation would be the place where those options could be put out

there and people could give their view on their options it's an independent process so it's safe

in some ways from government coming in and saying what can and can't be said but Louise it's over to

you yeah I think it's just really important at this stage that we don't over manage with kind of

letting dare I say it media decide what questions we should be talking about with the British public

So my view is we need to involve the public in what they think care is, what they want

to do with themselves as families, what they think is reasonable, what they think they

need help with. It's as simple as that. Some of those things can be really small, and yet it's a system we make them really difficult

through to them who they think they are prepared to support and who they think their taxes or

any other form of personal money should support. We go through the gamut of all the options

I think it's fair to say that there has never been a national care service

There are colleagues in the room today that are doing the best thing they can to manage a pretty flawed system

Nobody at any point before this moment said we want to have a national care service

And so we need to look at everything in your list. But the most important thing is we have to involve the public in actually helping us shape what that looks like

and I think that's the most important part of today. And I'm not avoiding your question

I'm just telling you the truth. Prime Minister, I'm afraid I'm being looked at by your staff

which I have to say I still find frightening after 27 years. Do you find something frightening

I pretend I do anyway. Thanks, everybody. The point now, if it's OK, is if anybody would like a quick chat with Andy

he's really happy to. But we need to just get up and get moving because we've got cross-party people

And everyone's feeling the Burnham joy at the moment

but at risk of adding to it, he's managed to hit the 11 o'clock and the 10 o'clock

with more accuracy than I usually manage. And I've been doing this for almost as long as Baroness Louise Casey

has been doing things she just referred to. And it puts us in a slightly tricky situation

Do you want to talk about the substance or the style? My inbox is currently full of people reviewing their vote from Monday morning

on the Burnham Optimism Barometer and even some quite, I'm going to tell you straight

some very emotional messages from people talking about how hopeful they are feeling

as a consequence of listening to Andy Burnham, I think in the context of both substance and style

We'll run through what he said. We'll look at how he said it. We'll look at how you are responding to your first proper look at Andy Burnham in full Prime Minister mode

Not campaigning mode, not victory lap mode, but Prime Minister mode and what you make of it so far

James O'Brien on LBC. Three minutes after 11. So Louise Casey's report, review into social care to be expedited, to be hurried up, to be catalyzed, to be brought forward

A resurrection of the programme that Andy Burnham had sought to put in place

in the final year of Gordon Brown's government. You know, there's a parallel universe, isn't there

Where Gordon Brown won the election in 2010. Austerity never happened, and Andy Burnham quite possibly

would have introduced the National Care Service for England, which would have seen free personal care for people with the highest needs

move more towards care, free for people when they need it. that was abandoned immediately after the 2010 election

Osborne's razor, again, if you're wondering what Osborne's razor is, it is the growing sense that whenever you're looking at something in this country

that's gone really, really wrong, the trail of breadcrumbs will lead back to George Osborne

who continues, of course, to lead a life utterly unaffected by his epic failure

And then you've got the cross-party talks. I think Ed Davey will have a heck of a lot to say of interest in this area

not least because of him and his wife and his broader family and indeed a social care network caring for his son

He is going to attend the meeting by Zoom. Kemi Baden-Ock's busy

I'm not quite sure how she'd process this sort of invitation. Say what you like about Kemi Baden-Ock

She doesn't exactly come across as a team player, does she? She's sacking her own team at the moment

for supporting policies that they campaigned on during the last general election. I'll say that again because I'm not sure she's noticed

She's telling people like Grant Shapps, for example, don't do the joke, I'll do the joke

if I think it's time for the joke, but she's telling people like Grant Shapps, I'll do the joke, and Michael Green and Corrine Stockheath

that he can't run as a Conservative candidate because he still supports net zero

which was the party's position until she became leader. So theoretically, she should sack herself for having supported net zero prior to becoming party leader

But anyway, not exactly a team player. So she's processing at the moment

So we're all going to pull together on this one. We're going to, it's a bit like a war cabinet

I'm fascinated by war cabinets because you, like me, have lived in a world of febrile politics

wherein it's almost impossible to imagine all the major, Imagine picking a cabinet that involved the best candidates from every party

You know, you'd have a couple of Tories in there. You'd have most of the current Labour cabinet

You'd have Ed Davey in there. 30p Lee Anderson, he'd be there

Probably Chancellor. I guess with his economics, he could turn... He could almost turn water into wine, I think

But it's so anathema to us, isn't it? And yet, that's kind of what he's talking

I think it might be a little bit cynical, the cross-party bit. not least because Cammy Bader not seems to be incapable of doing anything that doesn't involve sniping and point scoring apart from the

PMQs the final PMQs for Keir Starmer which is going to end up being the exception that proved the rule

But it was more than that as a speech wasn't it it was

the answer to the unexpected question about Assisted dying was really strong because he answered it

He talked about palliative care being such a crucial constituent of that conversation that you cannot really come out in favour or against assisted dying until you're confident that nobody is ever going to do it because they're worried about the quality of care that they'll get when they are terminally ill

He touched on quite a lot of other things regarding the near rather than the distant future

And he spoke very movingly about his own father and he spoke very persuasively about the failure of 22 previous reviews to deliver

But optimism doesn't butter any parsnips. Convincing oratorical performances do not butter parsnips

I wonder whether we actually deserve a moment just to reflect on what it feels like

to watch a Prime Minister who is palpably human, apparently empathetic, and capable of communicating in a way

that doesn't make him sound like a robot, a court jester, I don't know how to describe Liz Truss

a city boy like Rishi Sunak, or how do you describe Liz Truss in that context

So you're going back, Keir Starmer robot, Boris Johnson court jester, Rishi Sunak City Boy, Liz Truss..

I don't know. Anyway, do we take a moment to reflect upon what it feels like

to listen to somebody answering questions, trying to answer questions, being honest

A wet lettuce. A wet lettuce? No, not really. It doesn't work. So phone lines are open for that

0345 6060 973. What did you think of what you just heard? And if you didn't listen to it

You can listen to other people describing it and responding to it

I'm not going to bend over backwards to accommodate your decisions this morning

The rest of us were listening to the Prime Minister deliver his first major speech on a major policy issue as Prime Minister

It's a moment of national import. Whatever your political loyalties, whatever your political fealties, it matters

And he is addressing an issue that, in many ways, is tailor-made for him

because, number one, it really matters. Number two, he's got history on this front

And number three, if he gets it right, it will be the most extraordinary electoral boost

heading into the next general election. And here's the thing, and I'll do it now, I'll get it out there

here's the thing about Andy Burnham that I can't quite believe I believe

Right? I think he's... I'm going to say this out loud and you're going to hang it around my neck

for the next three years and possibly make me regret it. But I think he means it when he talks about..

It was interesting that he singled out the Mail and the Telegraph. He talks a lot, like we do, about how hard it is

to have even vaguely sensible or honest conversations in a country where discourse is defined

by incredibly bent and biased right-wing media. He singled out the Mail and the Telegraph by name

He thanked migrant workers for looking after his dad. That's a huge shift from where Keir Starmer appeared to have taken the Labour Party

He seems to me to be determined to fix social care because it will make this country a better place to be

He does not seem to me to be determined to fix social care

because he thinks it's an election winner. and this is a very personal position

I've explored it a bit in print today and it's the conversation that I'm having most

with myself in my own head is trying to work out what it is about him

that feels different so for example the stuff about working class culture and pubs

that you educated me on towards the end of last week and made me realise that just because pubs are shutting

and just because they feel like a much less significant part of local communities

doesn't mean that they're not still a significant part of a local community. And if you were in Makerfield during that by-election

and you were being treated to all of the poison being poured into your ears

it was a perfect constituency for Farage because it's got hardly any immigration and the residents are all quite old

So that is exactly the kind of constituency that Farage historically flourishes in

where you can tell old people to be frightened of people that they don't know

and it didn't work. And I was trying to work out why it didn't work. And the reason why it didn't work

is because people feel that they've lost something, right? They feel something's changed and it has

And it's changed for economic reasons. It's changed for technological reasons. It's changed for all sorts of reasons

It has, their life, as Jonathan Powell explained during a brilliant clip with

not Jonathan Powell, what's his name? The guy that was in The Footlights with Enoch Powell

It was the guy that did the opera directing. it will come to me in a minute

Jonathan Miller a brilliant historical clip with Enoch Powell where Enoch Powell is talking about change

and Jonathan Miller just says yeah of course things are changing but if people like you keep telling everybody

that they're changing for the worse because there's so many black and brown faces around

or there's more black and brown faces around then you poison everything timeless, timeless

little exchange on a TV chat show I may play it to you before I go home today

because it's that good and so what Burnham did in Makerfield is he acknowledged that people are feeling a sense of loss

and a deep sense of change. And he didn't blame it all on immigrants or migration

He just acknowledged it and said he was going to try to fix it. And by doing that, he parks his tanks on Nigel Farage's lawn

But he does so... By the way, for the avoidance of doubt, that's a metaphor. I'm not suggesting for a moment that anybody should park a tank

on Nigel Farage's lawn. Can I make that absolutely clear? before they report me to the police

When I say parking tanks on lawns, I'm using a well-established figure of speech

an oratorical trope, to decide, or rather to describe, an act of political engagement

So when Andy Burnham parked his tanks on Nigel Farage's lawn, by giving people an explanation for their feelings

that did not involve generating hatred or attacking minorities, he did so accidentally

He wasn't thinking, how do I spike Nigel Farage's guns? Can I make it absolutely clear that I'm not suggesting for a minute

that Nigel Farage carries guns around? Even when he says he's going to, he doesn't mean it

No guns. So please, don't report me to the police. When Andy Burnham says that he is understanding and recognising people's problems

he's not doing it to park tanks on Farage's lawn or to spike Farage's guns

He's doing it because he's listening to people and he's trying to address them. I truly think this is true

I'm a human being like you I just have this job right and I have a propensity to hope

and it has been dashed a lot in recent years and it will probably be dashed again

but right now I'm taking it I'm taking it a lot of people in Manchester tell me

that they saw this during the pandemic from Andy Burnham he is doing things

and it almost impossible to understand this he is doing things to make this country a better place to be He not doing things to make the opposition look bad or to undermine their rhetoric of hatred

That's going to happen as a side effect. That's going to be like a bonus if you care about such

things. But when he addresses social care, he understands he has to recognize the importance

of foreign workers because it is frankly insane not to whether you're a tory uh a labor or a

lib dem or a reform uk it is frankly insane not to recognize the role that foreign workers play

in upholding our social care system so he does that because he knows it to be true he's not

making a point about immigration he's making a point about human beings and social care

and that's what he's done today he's laid out a platform a program for change because he genuinely

i think look i can't believe i'm saying this i'm actually quite cynical right he really wants to make this country a better place to be and i can't remember the last

politician that i really thought that about or let me rephrase that i can't remember the last

Prime Minister that I really thought that about. So, what did you think of that? Actually

that's all. I'm not going to give you caveats and quibbles. What did you think of that

0345 6060973. What was in it? What wasn't in it? How it sounded, how it felt, the style

the substance, all of it. All of it. I mean, historically, the curse of O'Brien only really

applies to Tory politicians. And it's always a little bit more desperate when you sort of find

yourself thinking, well, Matt Hancock looks all right, maybe he's a good guy. Rishi Sunak said

all the right things on the steps of Downing Street, then put Swayla Braverman back in the Home Office. So I don't think the curse of O'Brien applies to Andy Burnham, not least because he's

been around for so long. And of course, if he'd stayed in health in 2009, we'd have a national

care service and social care would, if not, I mean, there was a very real chance that social

care would have been fixed. 03456060973. If you know a lot about social care, what did

you think about what he said? And if you don't know a lot about social care, what did you

think about how he said it? 03456060973 is the number that you need. It's 1116

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James O'Brien on LBC. Call 0345 6060 973. It is 11.18. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

Kicking the can down the road again, perhaps, says Mike Inharrow. After 22 reviews, I hope I'm wrong

That was at 10.19, Mike, and I would suggest that possibly by 10.40

you might have changed your position. And do let me know. Morning, James, writes Isaac

and he speaks for many this morning in my inbox. I'd like to revise my Bob from seven to eight

He's refreshingly good at this, isn't he? Joe takes up this theme. This is what I've decided to do

I think his messaging is great. It really inspires confidence. I think he seems like he's in charge

There's something else where he did that as well. With this nonsense story about Gianni Infantino

trying to flog off the World Cup. And someone suggested last night

that Keir Starmer would have said, this is a matter for FIFA for about a fortnight

and at the end of that fortnight, he might finally have come out and said, well, obviously, I don't think it's a very good idea

Burnham's in like Flynn. He's in with his studs up straight away. This is an absolutely ridiculous idea

Sadly, he's doing it on the racist social media platform, but, you know, Rome wasn't built in a day

and he's there with a strong opinion and using words like order and decide

I agree, actually, with Joe on that. I mentioned that to Eleanor. This is what I've decided to do

You know, the opposite of dithering. Tony from Wimbledon. I love what the Prime Minister just said

Social care is as unfair as American health care. That really sticks

Hard to get past that. I'm not a big fan, says Tony, of his. But that was extremely insightful

John takes up the theme. Listening to the Prime Minister today, I finally, after many months or years

have a feeling of hope and optimism. He's speaking with his brain

not some conjured up, spin-created, point-by-point-grabbing boffins. and Helen writes, this is literally the most positive, heartwarming

and encouraging speech and Q&A session that I have ever heard from any Prime Minister

ever in capital letters. I had my reservations about Burnham, says John, who's also in Leeds

And of course, I'm still of the view that the proof will be in the pudding

but by God, he's better than Starmer at this. He can engage and talk so much more freely

off the cuff. He doesn't seem like he's constantly startled. That's deeply unfair

I mean, it's accurate. It's just unfair that it is accurate, if you see what I mean

It's not Starmer's fault that he has built the way that he's built, but sadly it matters

Martin writes, and he speaks for many, is James actually getting paid for today's slot

What an easy gig. To which the answers are, variously, Martin, yes and hell yes

I've never messaged a show before, but Andy Burnham's speech inspired me and moved me

I have a mum with Alzheimer's. This is beautiful, Nassar. If we were all a little bit more like you

then the country Andy Burnham dreams of delivering would, I think, edge slightly closer

Listen to this. Tell me this isn't humanity in its purest form

I have a mum with Alzheimer's and I hope it can deliver, if not in time for her

then for somebody else's mum. Blumeneck says Jordan in Devon. He's good

He's so good how he politely and subtly gives the media a little jab and asks them to stop with the point scoring

in a way that you can't get angry at. There's no malice there. no rage, he's just politely asking them

to stop with the rubbish Jordan doesn add that I James could probably learn a bit from that approach He the kind of PM says William that you want to take home to your mum and Zena closes this

little cavalcade of compliments with, Burnham is thoroughly decent isn't he? Was an

emotional listen. Oh go on, I'll squeeze in one more. Please just tell

James that I love him. He's just managed to express as he so often does, my exact thoughts

on this subject. 22 after 11 is the time. Teresa is in Rochester

Teresa, what did you make of that? Hi, James. Hello. Look, Andy spoke with Warps and Humanity

and he's obviously touched lots of listeners, and me as well, with a 97-year-old mum

who's got vascular dementia, and locally on the council, responsibility for running adult social care

Oh, gosh. So I feel immensely encouraged by this. It's a long time coming

Things have changed a lot and got worse since Andy was in government

But the fact that he's now, you know, refreshing that and speaking to what families all over the country feel

that this is an incredibly important issue that touches everyone's lives at some point

So that's a good thing. Why has it got worse? I mean, or rather, drawing on your expertise

how has it got worse since he was... Well, since he literally announced a plan to fix social care in 2009

three things have happened James austerity happened which tore the guts out of the services

people are living longer but they need to be able to live well and as independently as possible

and costs have spiraled particularly uh since since the trust crash but even before then and

the number of people coming in is rising all the time and and I do you know always want to say

remember, we're not just looking after older people. We're looking after younger people of working age

who have got lifetime disabilities and other problems. Well, that's half of the budget

Like mental health problems, absolutely. I don't know what it is in Medway, but it probably reflects the national picture, does it

It's half of the budget. And yet, I mean, Burnham did acknowledge this today

He did address it, but I'm afraid I haven't in the past. I've always talked about social care

as if it is exclusive to the elderly and particularly people with dementia

So Andy Burnham-Isbury is being courageous and telling the truth as it is

But look, let me tell you what I'm doing. We've borrowed a very large amount of money

to build a new care home that the council will run because that's a way to manage the market

and show a gold standard. Our care home is going to be big and beautiful

There will be complex dementia residential. There will be therapeutic and respite

and beds to enable people to recover when they come out of hospital

a big training facility, lovely gardens, and recognition that adult social care

is part of economic life where people work and deserve to have decent jobs

with good pay and prospects. Yeah, very good. I mean, I don't know if you have ambitions

to extend your political career beyond Medway Council, and this isn't a criticism

It's a bit cheeky, perhaps, but you sounded like peak politician there. It was delivered fluently and clearly and powerfully

What if you... This is a thing that really interests me. You may not have a view on it, so don't feel obliged to respond

It really matters that he's been away for a while. Because he's coming back to Westminster

and he's almost going, Guys, why haven't we tried to do... Why, what

Because you get... Is it groupthink? Is that the right phrase, when you just sort of look around and think

well, everybody else thinks this is impossible, so it must be. And he's come back refreshed

I don't know quite what the word is, but he seems to be sincere in his befuddlement

at the stagnation of Westminster. Yeah, that's right, because he's been in an environment

where he's been able to do things differently and work with lots of different people

from different parts of the community. Mayors are in a position to do that

We haven't got one in Kent, But look, there are council leaders like me who are trying to reach out to everybody

Might sound like Pete or Petra politician, but I have to say that

I have to say that every single day. Of course you do. I have to say that every single day because people need to believe that it's happening

The space is going into the ground. Yeah, and this is why I'm afraid of my self-editing

What would you call it? My optimism guards. My optimism guardrail has fallen down a bit

It won't stay down. and I have to get it back up again. It goes with the job, but that's why

because he is talking as if, and I keep coming back to this point, he is talking as if

He is much more interested in delivering results that will improve, and I think this is probably more true of local politicians

councillors and the like, more obviously true. It's all about delivering for the people in your constituencies

for the people in your areas, and in the Prime Minister's case, for the people in your country

and not yet, and he may change, about scoring points or, you know, settling scores

And some politicians, of course, are the polar opposite of that. No prizes for guessing which politician is complaining

that he hasn't been invited to the cross-party talks, despite no longer being an MP

which means he can't be invited to the cross-party talks anyway. No prizes at all for guessing who that might be

Thank you, Teresa. Joy is in Pusey. Joy, what would you like to say? cool i'm afraid my phone isn't working very well so the volume is very quiet so if i don't hear you

please forgive me but i just had to call in because i've been um a full-time carer for my mom for

nearly well it was 12 years altogether i gave up my business my home my life and i moved to another

part of the world, now country rather, and I looked after her full time with some help

from two amazing carers who supported me with that. But by the time my mum died, I ended up with a dreadful autoimmune condition and I now

myself am really chronically disabled and in lots of pain, not very well at all

And I believe that sort of was a catalyst of all the stress I had during that time, which

Which also, I have to say, if you are an unpaid carer, you're supposed to get a small allowance from the government every week

But if your person you're caring for claims the tenant's allowance, then there's no point claiming it because they take it off her allowance

So to protect my mum's money, I never claimed the allowance I should have got, even though she's very much

So when I heard Andy Burnham's speech this morning, I didn't just cry

I literally sobbed. I've just pulled myself together. I have been nearly hysterical because it touched me so deeply

I thought, this guy really gets it. He really, really gets it

It was just so refreshing. And when I heard him answer the questions

he answered all the questions. He didn't deflect at all. And, yeah, I just wanted to share that

Thank you for that. what would can I be the devil advocate do you mind I don want to upset you What would you say in response to people who might be suggesting that they heard other politicians say very similar things before

I think what he's saying is different because what other politicians have said before is that you, the person who's going to need the care

is going to have to give up a expenditure of your house or whatever, or your children will lose your inheritance tax

and I think that I think the margins are very low so say it's 23,000

it's not much if you're disabled and living on a pension you need that money for repairs

and stuff like that but I think this is different because he's looking at a way

in which everybody contributes not just the people who need care so everybody contributes a little

and so everybody gets care without feeling they have to give up everything

and that's the I mean that's the historic sell isn't it? That's the big sell

always, the big challenge I mean in many ways it's the fundamental divide

at the heart of Western politics in that he will, the original

plan back in 2010 when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister and they were both

running out of road in terms of holding high office, I think it was

10% they called it a death tax, the Tories called it a death tax, it was going to be 10% on

estates above a certain size that would go into a pot from which everybody

could then be reassured of free social care. But of course, if you don't need it, and they just took 10%, if your mum didn't

need it, and they've just taken 10% out of what she's leaving for you, that those are the people

who historically are very easy to persuade to be aggrieved, aren't they? Yeah, the one good thing I

think about this, if he does manage to get some sort of cross-party consensus, I think that's the

thing that's different. If that can be written into law, that the next people that come into

Parliament can't change it, because that's the trouble. Things just get going, and then

people get voted out, and the next one comes in and throws it all away. Yeah, I mean, to be fair to Boris Johnson, which of course is always important to be

but the things he put in place never really got properly, or the things he tried to put

in place never really got properly tested or examined because subsequent prime ministers um

didn't didn't carry on with his programs i guess it would be chiefly rishi sunak i think i'm

remembering that correctly joy thank you i and i mean in many ways that the the the question

would be in a normal circumstances the question would be why do you believe him when he says stuff

and not believe others when they say the same stuff but i think joy kind of shot that fox

I think that the key here, it's a phrase I've used actually in the paper today, is that he gets it

And, I mean, you can't really argue with that. You can say, no, he doesn't

You can argue with it like that. But you can't argue with the people who think that he does

You can't tell them that they don't feel that. I want to phrase this correctly

You can't tell... So if I say the thing that I'm finding most extraordinary about Andy Burnham at the moment

partly, probably as a consequence of the years he spent away from Westminster

is that he is describing things with a kind of uncommon clarity

that he couldn't see back in 2010. He's gone away and he's come back and he's gone

why aren't we doing this? Why do we allow these newspapers to set the conversational tone

Why do we spend all our lives? I know it sounds a little naive or idealistic on my part

but I think he gets something about pubs, oddly, and about communities

And you can't tell me that I don't think that. You can tell me that you don't think he does

but you can't tell me that I don't think what I think. And that is what I think is early success

is going to depend on how many people, like me and like our last caller

how many people just think he gets it. Simon English is here now with the headlines

James O'Brien on LBC. 11.36 is the time. Here's a question for you

Why is Chris Philp pretending that France has declared war on him

Why is... I don't know if you're aware of this story from yesterday, but Chris Philp was doing some hate tourism in the English Channel

It's quite popular. It's normally kind of the people who go around hanging flags on your lampposts

even if you politely ask them not to. But they all like to get in boats and float around

filming themselves shouting at migrants if they happen to encounter any. I mean, it is just sort of the worst

and the most cynical kind of social media creation. And Chris Philp was doing it yesterday

And a French warship nearby, gunshots were heard coming from this French warship nearby

And Chris Philp has essayed this into an extraordinary claim that they were deliberately targeting him

the former immigration minister, in a country where small boats crossings have gone down by about 45% this year so far

they were deliberately targeting him for being such a brilliant politician and causing them such trouble

Well, why on earth would Chris Philp be trying to distract attention away from other things that Chris Philp has done in this area this week

I think this might qualify as a missed information, and I will share the details with you shortly

But if I were to do a text vote, it would probably be something along the lines of

Do you think the French have declared war on Chris Philp? I mean, hang on, don't report me to the police

I just want to make it absolutely clear. I'm not suggesting that anybody has actually declared war, war on anybody

but that's kind of a comical reading of what Chris Philp has claimed

But if Chris Philp did go to war against the French, whose side would you be on? If the French declared war on Chris Philp, whose side would you be on

Anyway, I think I know what happened yesterday, And this gives us a wonderful opportunity to try out the new Mystic Gym Sting

which is one of my all-time favourites. We're not doing it yet, Keith. You can relax

But I'm going to offer up a theory on what I think actually happened yesterday

And events may... It may transpire that I'm right. We may never know whether I'm right or wrong

It may get demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt that I'm wrong, or I may be proved right, in which case the Mystic Gym credentials

become even more enhanced. So we're looking at that, but we're also looking at..

with a misinformation about why he is behaving so oddly and claiming that the French have declared war on him

and him personally. Because I think I know 11.38 is the time

But back to Andy Burnham and his speech and his first real performance, if that's the right word

as a Prime Minister. First policy-based performance as Prime Minister. Not a soundbite, not a social media clip, not a flying visit

but a set-piece speech, a policy announcement, Q&As from the media, and I'm wondering what you made of it

Alfie is in Lambeth. Did I say that correctly? Alfie, what would you like to say

Yes, hi there, James. Hello. Yes, I wanted to say, I thought it was a very good speech

He orates very well. He's very empathetic. It's very personal. But I think he's in the sort of unique position at the moment

because he has been sort of out of the mainstream for a while

he's able to... kind of do that. Whereas further down the line

what's going to happen when he has to actually say what he's going to have to do

You've read my mind. Because I said to Joy and Pusey a moment ago

that being away, I think it was Joy, maybe it was the caller before, but being away from the fray has given him this ability

to see things with a new clarity. But what if it's the other way around

And what if all the people who are sort of enmeshed enmeshed in the quagmire of process, a right

And he's going to end up in a year or two down the line

he's going to end up returning to being like them and thinking, oh, I don't know why I bother, it's impossible to get anything done in this flipping country

Yes, because I think, you know, like they said, there's been 22 reviews

You know, it's not just Andy Burnham on his own. You know, there's a whole team behind him

You know, and I'm just interested to know, well, what new is going to come out of this

How, what difficult, because let's face it, they're going to have to be difficult decisions

And it's going to involve taking money from somewhere. And somewhere means someone

And someone might be you, it might be me, it will probably be me. I mean, sadly, I recently did have to put my mum in a care home

And it has absolutely shocked me, the price of this. Yes. And we did have to sell her home because you get caught in a Catch-22 situation

because if you can't afford to pay, if you don't have enough savings to pay for the care at home

the only way you can pay for it is to sell the home

And the money won't last. It'll last a couple of years. And, you know, that's that

And it's an awful situation for anybody to have to be in

but that money to pay for that is going to have to come from somewhere

and he has some great ideas but with defence, with welfare, all these things

but they are going to have to be paid for and that is when the warm glow of optimism and hope

may begin to fade quickly rather than slowly I mean, I know the answer to one of your questions

because this is what he suggested in 2009-10 when he announced his national care service

and the Tories called it a death tax. The idea would be to take money from every estate

and put it in a pot from which the people who need social care

would then draw as opposed to this extraordinary lottery now which the tax expert Dan Needle described as, you know

putting a deck of cards on the wall and giving a monkey some darts

and throwing the dart and, you know, hitting a figure. And people like you have to find £60,000, £70,000 a year

and someone over there is never going to have to find anything despite they're the same age and they've paid the same taxes

they've lived the same life. I mean, there's a fundamental fairness to what the Telegraph journalist called compulsory insurance

Every estate chips in, only the people who need social care take out

and the costs are met. That is what he would say if he were here 16 years

ago but it's not quite what he said now no and i think just thinking about it 20 30 years down the

line um my mum obviously will it's unlikely she'll be able to pass on um inheritance uh then the

impact that has on me the ability for um younger people to buy houses all of those kind of things

it's like well where is this sort of care pot the state are going to have to pay for it down the line

at some point, so it's not just about the next couple of years

How do you feel about that idea? I mean, the Tories will call it a death tax

a Daily Mail will have a fit of the vapours. I can't work out, perhaps you can help me with this

I can't work out why the fourth Viscount Rothermere, who inherited his newspaper empire and a huge sum of money

from the third Viscount Rothermere, who inherited his newspaper empire and a huge sum of money

from the second Viscount Rothermere, who I think inherited his newspaper, I may have counted incorrectly, but you get the picture

Why do you think he might be passionately opposed to inheritance tax? I mean, possibly because it's a percentage

So the more you have, the more you pay. So how would you feel about a percentage of all estates

going into a pot from which social care was funded? I don't think I would mind, actually, to be honest

No, that's the challenge. My view on what's happening at the moment

and all the soundbites are coming up, sometimes I wish they would just put up income tax

rather than death by a thousand taxes. Keep it simple, keep it straight

Well, I think, I mean, if I remember correctly, and it was a long time ago

that is pretty much what was in place on this, not to income tax, but a specific premium

a specific insurance premium, if you like, which is what tax is in a way

All tax is in a sense of insurance premiums because you're paying into a pot for lots and lots of things

some of which you will not need. You will not need to take out, you know, people who don't have children pay for our education system

And, of course, they benefit from other people's children being educated, but they don't actually get the measurable cash-based benefit themselves

So I think that's what they'll have to do, which is why I said that I suspect the cross-party talks bit

is a little bit tongue-in-cheek or cynical from Andy Burnham, because Kemi Badenoch has already made it clear

that she wants all the things that he wants to do but she doesn't think that any money should be provided to pay for them

except presumably by cutting the welfare bill. That's generally all they have, these people

But I don't think that Kemi Baden-Ock at the moment would go along with the idea of a fair insurance-ish system

where everybody pays a certain percentage. Every estate pays a certain percentage

and that pot is the one from which anybody and everybody who needs social care

would be assured of free care. 11.46 at the time. I like that, but then I'm a naive fool

It's 11.46. James O'Brien on LBC. It's 11.49. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

where there's quite a lot going on. I'm minded in the next hour to talk about political discourse

And, um, how would you describe it? Ill-advised interventions from political figures

Zach Polanski, last night on the telly, the leader of the Greens, refused to apologise for posting a picture of a man in a T-shirt

that featured a guillotine and the words, we're making plans for Nigel, a quote from an XTC song

But, I mean, I think obviously intended to make people think of Nigel Farage

And Nigel Farage has called the police, I think. He's very, very upset about this, very frightened

And many of his colleagues are describing it as incitement to murder. I'm interested in whether Polanski should have apologised

I mean, it's not as if there are any sort of senior reform councillors who've called

for Labour MPs to actually be shot during that. Well there is a senior reform councillor calling for an actual Labour sharing a social media post calling for an actual MP to be shot Well I can I mean Nigel Farage probably called the police on his own councillor on that one then I think that saying this person should be shot is measurably more insightful than a t featuring a guillotine and someone name

So we're going to look at that story, because I like elements of it

but we're also going to have the words of Michelle Obama playing in the background

Not literally, Keith, relax. We're going to have the words of Michelle Obama playing in the background

when she said when they go low, we go high because looking at the state of the United States of America

that didn't work, did it? So I'm wondering whether part of Zach Polanski's motivation

in refusing to apologise, because Nigel Farage never apologises for anything, is to reject the idea that you have to be better than them

I don't know what I think about that. I don't really care what I think about it

I can't wait to find out what you think about it. but I'm currently busy finding out what you think about Andy Burnham's speech this morning

And Wendy's in Norwich. Wendy, what would you like to say? Hello, James. We talked before about measles and vaccinations a few months ago

Anyway, we'll move on to the other end of the age group

Yes, yes. Mostly, apart from the younger ones. So, it's a slightly different look at this

I like the two words you said, Andy said, preventative and front end

And I think I'm just going to talk... You're a retired GP, I think

Yes. Well, you were recently retired last time we spoke. I don't know when we dropped the word recently from that description

Well, it's still recently then. Recently retired, yes. Recently retired GP. Also, my mother had Parkinson's disease and was in three care homes

And I've got three taxpaying children in their 20s and 30s. So that's where I stand

But I'd just like to sort of describe what it's like as a GP going into care homes

which you did virtually every week, as you can imagine. And also my practical solution to it, if I can

um so the two things that happen in care homes um is that falls happen in the middle of the night

so someone with severe dementia who can't feed themselves who can't is incontinent the rest all

the rest falls over in the middle of the night or falls out of bed and of course it's 999

immediately however much the relatives can say please don't do that um we just can we just wait

till the morning and pain relief no it's 999 and chest infections is the other thing antibiotics

given to people all the time when they've got a bit of a cough, you know, severe dementia people

So we had a patient, we had a resident who was semi-conscious with a neurological disease for eight years

and we get in there and they said, oh, he's coughing again, can you write up the antibiotics

That was what was going on all the time. It was really defensive medicine. And ask the public, would they really wish to live like this

with the people that have got very severe dementia? Most people would say no if they just went to visit a care home

It's not criticizing any staff or anything like that. Do you want to live like that

I think some people might say yes, they would want everything and all that

But most people, I believe, would say no. And I've got a power of attorney myself

My 89-year-old mother-in-law also has a health and welfare power of attorney

with specific wording in it, which is not the blunt instrument which is assisted dying

It says, if I was incapacitated in such a way I was unable to care for myself

or communicate, I would not want to receive life-prolonging treatment. That includes antibiotics or be resuscitated

but would wish to receive best possible care to keep me comfortable. So my argument is that I think people need to be thinking way ahead on this

and the government needs to be thinking way ahead and doing that sensitive communication to the public

before we get to the stage when we've got incapacity. so his answer then was a strange phrase for me to use given the seriousness of the conversation

that we're having but but Andy Burnham's answer to that unexpected question was was impressive

was music to your ear yes towards the end I mean there was a lot of describing the horrendous

current situation but the simplicity of oh we just all got to pay more tax and pay more more

more into the system when people are living in such a way that I don't believe people would want

to live but relatives have a very difficult situation they go in and say can you not give

my mother antibiotics this time you know and there's a staff sort of no we've got to because

there's nothing written down anywhere by that person that that's what they would have wanted

you know it's a very very delicate situation but they do this in the states I spoke to a doctor

who's in the States, and it's an awful system there, obviously. But they do have direct conversations with their physician, as they call it

about what they will be when they've got no capacity, if and when

I mean, they might have it, won't they? But if they have not got capacity, which many of us won't have

make that difficult conversation. But my idea, which is slightly maybe sounds a bit crackpot

but the government should write to everybody at age 60 a letter

with a really difficult, very careful communication. saying there's no compulsion, and obviously the media would get very excited about this

but can you consider writing an advanced directive? So you've got it in writing

it's a clear wording that's done by lawyers, actually, and lots of people have got them, but many people haven't

And that makes it so much simpler when it comes to looking after you when you've got dementia

Because you look after them, but you don't keep sending them into hospital, and you've got this pressure to prescribe antibiotics

to keep them alive all the time. I mean, I understand what you're saying

and I understand why you suggest that there would be uproar in some areas

because you're, if I've understood you correctly, you're talking about the system currently trying too hard to keep alive

people whose quality of life is massively diminished. Yes, and it's not playing God, because that person..

No, I understand. way ahead have decided that that's not what they would be

That's a tricky conversation to have, isn't it? And yet it's probably a really important one

Yes. And you've had it. You've thought about it because of what you've done in your professional life

Yeah. It's a presumption that it is, I mean, it's a bit, it's almost undoing elements of the Hippocratic Oath, isn't it

But it, well, no, the Hippocratic Oathes don't do any harm. And you could argue it's doing harm to someone by keep treating them

treating them and treating them and treating them so it's not really

first do no harm they should get you on this panel I'll give her your number if you want

I think that's a huge part I would really like to be on it I just feel that

it's got to be done way ahead of anyone having any illness

because that was what he said right at the outset he talked about the numbers going up

didn't he, more and more people coming into elderly social care And you're not, I mean, we're not motivated by a desire to keep the numbers down

We're just acknowledging that one of the reasons for the numbers being so high is probably an anachronistic approach to health care and an outdated approach to longevity

I don't know. I mean, I've not thought about it this way before, so I'm not going to offer up an opinion on the subject until I've had time to think about it a lot more

But you express the idea in such calm and compassionate ways that you manage to strip it of some of the emotional baggage that it will inevitably involve And you know you make it sound pragmatic as well I can tell you as well that there is an extraordinary response as you spoken

Wonderful caller, James. I'm currently getting this in place for myself. This caller is amazing, James

I totally agree with this lady, says Zoe in Basingstoke. Please thank this caller, says Peter

You know, this woman is spot on, says Amanda. I don't normally get that kind of response in my inbox to a kind of health care policy contribution

But there it is. That's what you got. And it's yours, not mine. So take it

Thank you. Thank you, Wendy. It's 11.58. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC

Let me squeeze in one more call if I can. John's in Bristol. John, what would you like to say

Oh, hi, James. I'd like to say that Andy's speech this morning

and your phone-in has touched me more than I ever thought it might do actually

my dad is in a care home, he has a pastoral dementia and Alzheimer's

diagnosed just over a year ago and obviously diagnosis took a while so we

had it for a long time my mum died suddenly last September

she was to give, she was his primary carer with some help

each day at the end and the start of the day so as soon as she was in hospital

we had to find care for dad he's in an absolutely wonderful place

the carers look after him so well whatever they are paid it's not enough

and there was a caller earlier that said about this is too late for

but now this needs to be coming. And I couldn't agree more with that

Whatever comes in from the government, whatever silly buggers happens in terms of whatever it ends up like

that will be too late for my dad. But it's something that we need to address

He was unfortunately in hospital over the weekend. He managed to dislocate his hip in his sleep

This happens. and we had to wait outside A&E for four hours in the ambulance

Then when we got into A&E, there was another six-hour wait before we were properly seen

and then they managed to, under sedation, put his hip back in

Then another 12-hour wait in a corridor before he was able to get to the discharge lounge

which I have to say is more discharge than lounge, and before getting back to the care home

We were the lucky ones in that instance. There were people there in the corridors that quite obviously had dementia

that were there on their own, confused as to what was going on

There for hours and hours and hours. And who knows what the care package was like for them to get home

It's a big problem. And it's not one of the things that Burnham addressed today, is it

It's you and Wendy have brought it into this conversation towards the end, and yet it's a huge part of any prospective solution, I think

It is, and it seemed to me today that Andy Burnham gets it

He touches me. He's got a dad with dementia that I have and understands

He sees it. Well, he's the same, John. And his voice went a bit towards the end of that speech, I thought

just as your voice is going a bit now, because it's our dad's, you know

It's our parents that we're talking about, and the idea of them suffering unnecessarily is unbearable, isn't it

It is, and as I spoke to you, the producer, it's not about the money for me

My inheritance is knowing that he's being cared for now. That's a beautiful thing, and I hope I am like you

I think I am, and I hope I never have to find out as it goes, But I also have sympathy for people who do a kind of calculation in their head and find themselves thinking that it's not fair for me to pay something that I don't use

I don't agree with that position and it makes a mockery of universal taxation

And it is, as Andy Burnham pointed out earlier, absurd that the NHS and social care have somehow been detached from each other when they are obviously part of an identical process

But I just acknowledge not everybody is as clear-eyed and as kindly as you are

and that doesn't necessarily mean that they're wrong-ins. It is two minutes after 12, and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

Gosh, amazing calls once again. I'm going to change the picture completely next

The leader of the Green Party has been accused of all manner of evil deeds

by posting accidentally by his account a picture of a bloke in a T-shirt

featuring a picture of a guillotine and the words, we're making plans for Nigel

And Nigel Farage has an article in the Daily Mail today talking about how horrible this experience has been for him

and reminding us of the ongoing court case, so there's a limit to what I can say

but the recent death of Anne Whittacombe in apparently horrible circumstances. He mentions that many, many times in the article about the T-shirt

And the idea that Zach Polanski should have taken the opportunity to apologise on Newsnight last night

is one that in and of itself isn't very interesting or important

but in the broader sphere of political hypocrisy and political discourse, should you apologise to people

who would never apologise in the same circumstances? It's a moral question that goes far beyond

Zach Polanski and Nigel Farage, and I want to know your thoughts after this

James O'Brien on LBC. It's seven minutes after 12, and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

where we are going to have a conversation, which I must confess I'm a tiny bit confused by

Not like massively confused, but a tiny bit confused. And it's important not to overlook the possibility that the recent death of Ann Widdicombe

has completely changed people's opinions and personalities about political discourse. So we should get that out there early

And we should also acknowledge that, really, if you're going to have an attitude to inappropriate language in politics

then you have to apply equally to all politicians, or at least to all parties

You can't have two-tier policing of language. You can't sort of say, well, it's okay for someone from my party to do this, but it's absolutely awful when somebody from the other party, when somebody from the other lot does that

You can't, I mean, two-tier policing, of course, doesn't exist in the context that a lot of racists are currently claiming

It does exist in the context of almost every police service in the country routinely being found to treat people of color measurably worse than white people

but anti-white racism is the lie currently being perpetrated by some people

There are however valid concerns about two policing of language now Almost as if some people seem to think that the rules should be different for them and their colleagues

than they are for everybody else. And this has been brought into the..

And the odd bit about all of the stuff that we're about to talk about now

is that for the last few years, the whole narrative of hurty words and free speech

and you should be able to say what you want, That has all been amplified and disseminated by people who are Nigel Farage or very adjacent to Nigel Farage

whether it's colleagues or fans or members of the media that dedicate significant portions of their careers to tickling his toes

This idea that free speech or, as it is often in these cases, the right to be racist must be protected at all costs

culminated, of course, in one woman being offered a hero's welcome at the Reform UK Party conference

after pleading guilty to incitement to racial hatred. We may get to her shortly, because it is in this context

that Zak Polanski, the leader of the Green Party, has come in for some criticism

Now, it's important to remember exactly what it was that Zak Polanski did

He posted a bunch of pictures taken at a Green Party event

by a photographer, without, according to him and his account, without looking at them properly

And it turned out that one of them featured a man in a T-shirt

with a picture of a guillotine and the words, we're making plans for Nigel

And that is, well, that is actually the end of that story

That's what happened. When it was brought to his attention, he took it down

A spokesman said that he condemned it, but he didn't apologise. I said yesterday that he had apologised

Being a brilliant radio presenter, I very quickly corrected myself. But I presumed that a condemnation goes hand in hand with an apology

This is one of the reasons why I find the question I'm going to ask you in five minutes so interesting

So he condemned it, but he didn't specifically apologise. and he was given an opportunity to do so last night on the telly on three occasions here's one

of them well if i'd done it deliberately i'd be apologizing but because this was a mistake

i think the important thing is that i point out it's a mistake that i also make sure that i condemn

political violence and also crucially i make a commitment to be better on my social media okay

do you want to apologize then or not no um the reason for that is because nigel farage

when I posted this or when the person posted it, it got less than a thousand likes

Nigel Farage then took it, cropped it, so it made it look like I posted it, which I think was fundamentally dishonest

It's now had 3.2 million views. So actually, this whole conversation has been seen more

because Nigel Farage, Lee Yusuf, and I think Richard Tice posted it. So I'm accepting my responsibility

in that I shouldn't have accepted that collaboration. I'm accepting that we all need to condemn political violence

but I also think the reporting to the police, the ramping up of the language to say

this is incitement to murder me feels like that's also putting me in a dangerous spot

That's really interesting and it may slightly change the opinion that I thought I had at this time yesterday

I didn't know those numbers. Did you know those numbers? So if him posting it and it having

was it 100,000, was it 1,000 or 100,000 views? He posted it and it had a relatively small number of views

And then Farage and his mates posted exactly the same photograph and it got millions

If the photograph itself is insightful, if it is inciting murder, who's done more inciting

The person whose social media activity secured a thousand or a hundred

Let's listen to it again, actually. I want to get my numbers right. Here you go. So this is him explaining why he won't apologise

Well, if I'd done it deliberately, I'd be apologising. But because this was a mistake

I think the important thing is that I point out it's a mistake, that I also make sure that I

condemn political violence. And also, crucially, I make a commitment to be better on my social media

OK. Do you want to apologise then or not? No. The reason for that is because Nigel Farage, when I posted this or when the person posted it

it got less than a thousand likes. Nigel Farage then took it, cropped it, so it made it look like

I posted it, which I think was fundamentally dishonest. It's now had 3.2 million views

So actually this is, this whole conversation has been seen more because Nigel Farage

the Youssef, and I think Richard Tice posted it. So I'm accepting my responsibility and that I

shouldn't have accepted that collaboration. I'm accepting that we all need to condemn

political violence. But I also think the reporting to the police, the ramping up of the language to

say this is incitement to murder me feels like that's also putting me in a dangerous spot

13 minutes after 12 is the time so I mean that's maths right

if I did something on social media and it got a thousand hits

and it was a really bad thing to do and then you did something with exactly the same picture

and it got 3.2 million hits who's done the more damage who's done no

I don't know I'm just asking questions because what about if you posted a picture of an MP

of a female MP, and it said, you dozy cow should be shot

What if you posted that? Because that's what one of Nigel Farage's colleagues did

That is exactly what, word for word, with a picture of the Labour MP for Bolsover, Natalie Fleet

that is what I think he's the deputy leader of Lancashire Council actually did

County Councillor Simon Evans did this on Facebook. You dozy cow, my apologies for the language here

but I'm just reading out what the Reform UK Councillor did on social media

should be shot. Now, he subsequently took the post down, apologised for it

and said that he did not notice the offensive text. Reform said the party had investigated

but it was agreed it was a genuine mistake and no further action was necessary

So, you dozy cow should be shot. Genuine mistake. No further action necessary

T-shirt, guillotine, Nigel. Genuine mistake. Call the police. I'm just wondering whether that sounds a little bit too tear to you

Let's refresh our memory about a story that we touched on yesterday

I suggest we listen to them and not the overpaid pen pushers

in Whitehall who are not doing a neutral job. And once Brexit's done, we'll take the knife to them

All right? Had enough of all of it. We'll take the knife to them. Had enough of all of it

Now, I don't know whether you think he meant that. He was actually going to turn up in Whitehall with a knife

and start stabbing people. But, I mean, he believes that a bloke wearing a T-shirt

with a guillotine on it is actively encouraging people to, I don't know, what, build a guillotine

and then somehow drag him to it and chop his head off

I, I, genuinely, if that's why, unless you're wasting police time, you must

...tenuinly believe that a bloke with a picture of a guillotine on his t-shirt is threatening decapitation

whereas a bloke standing up in public and saying he's going to take a knife to some human beings

is not threatening to take a knife to some human beings. Of course, subsequently, he said he should have used the word axe

he should have changed the language to use the word axe. But again, we find ourselves wondering what the difference is here

Farage defended the remark as a metaphor for staffing cuts. He tweeted, I should have said, take the axe, which is a more traditional term for cuts

I mean, knives, guns, this fella's got the lot. If they don't deliver this Brexit that I spent 25 years of my life working for

then I will be forced to don't car key, take up a rifle and set the front line

Don Kharki pick up a rifle and head for the front line

Now, I don't know whether you hear that and think that he was realistically threatening

to dress up in a slightly different outfit from his usual clothes

and get a gun from undisclosed sources and go out and start shooting people

Most obviously, I think Theresa May, because it was her job at the time

to deliver the Brexit that he was talking about. do you think that he meant that he was going to stab civil servants

Do you think that he meant that he was going to shoot Theresa May or do you think that he was using figures of speech

And remember, Zach Polenski wasn't wearing this T-shirt with the guillotine on it

He was simply posting a picture of it in a tranche of photographs

that had been provided by a photographer. So I suppose that consistency demands that Nigel Farah should have phoned the police

should have called the police on himself at least twice, and indeed on Councillor Simon Evans

the deputy leader of Lancashire County Council. A spokesman for Mr Farage said his words were out of context

and it would be unfair, taking the words out of context would be unfair

and insisted that the party was opposed to any type of violence. Which again sounds a little bit two-tier, doesn't it

If a T-shirt is incitement to murder and the police should be involved

But threatening to shoot people is being taken out of context and expressing opinions that are opposed to any..

I mean, I don't quite see how one is worse than the other, unless you're engaging in two-tier policing of political language

And we know how much Nigel Farage hates two-tier policing, don't we

I'm up to three examples of just how epic this hypocrisy is

but I've got ten James O'Brien on LBC 20 minutes after 12

now just for the avoidance of doubt I still think Zach Polanski should have apologised

even though he did it by mistake the purpose of this conversation is to

highlight the hypocrisy of some of the contributors to this discourse but also

to tee up your answers to that question. Because Polanski's rationale for not apologising

is the alleged disingenuousness and hypocrisy of the person he's being asked to apologise to, Nigel Farage

And I don't think anyone can really argue with the allegation of disingenuousness and hypocrisy

given that we're only up to three examples, and he's already failed to condemn a senior councillor

who called for or shared a social media post literally calling for a Labour MP to be shot

threatening to stab civil servants and threatening to shoot people who opposed his Brexit dreams

That's just three examples of his public conduct. I've got another one happening in this studio, actually

You will remember when the little girls in Southport were murdered and it felt at the time as if every racist on the planet

was taking to social media to tell lies about it and to try to whip up hatred and indeed incite violence

against refugees or asylum seekers or immigrants in general or foreigners. Quite why you would want to be violent towards somebody

who had absolutely nothing to do with the thing that has got you upset

unless you've been successfully groomed or gaslit by race provocateurs remains beyond me

But some people got stuck in and chose to, I don't know, to either believe the utterly unsourced rantings of deeply unpleasant people and share them with their huge followings, or they pretended to believe the utterly unsourced rantings of deeply unpleasant people and share them with their huge followings

followings. I don't know why you would do that, but I do know that I wasn't the first person to

suggest that those riots that followed those hideous murders should have been called the

Farage riots, because many, many, many people who took to the streets and enacted violence

or threatened violence, or witnessed or enjoyed violence, seemed to be dancing to a tune that was

set by the social media activity of, I say, the usual suspects. It was Tom Swarbrick who

put it to Nigel Farage that he had been part of this problem. One of the reasons the Southport

riots were as bad as they were is we weren't told the truth. There were stories online from some

very prominent folks with big followings, Andrew Tate, etc., suggesting the man had crossed the

English Channel in a boat in October 2023. Other suggestions that he was an active Muslim

And much of this led to the riots that we saw. But you amplified that, because you said some reports suggest..

I asked a very simple question. Was this person known or not

Now... To the security services. Absolutely. And that's a perfectly legitimate question, which was raised by Yvette Cooper

But, Nigel Farage, you didn't just do that, did you? You said some reports suggest he was known to the security services

Those reports were from a fake news website, amplified by Russian state TV

and, as you mentioned, Andrew Tate. Which ones were you looking at

Which adds to what I was asking for. So contributing to a context, that's a good word

they like to use that word a lot, contributing to a context which saw hideous violence unfolding on our streets

and saw people living in fear of their lives and based entirely upon lies that he had helped to spread

It's not because they didn't tell us what was going on that these riots happened, it's because liars told us things that had not happened

And what the fudge is an active Muslim while we're at it? An active... What are you supposed to do with that phrase

Just sort of think negative thoughts about all Muslims? Anyway, Nigel Farage didn't apologise for that

but he's called the police about a T-shirt. And one of the people who responded to the online horror show

that accompanied that hideous murder was a woman called Lucy Connolly who subsequently pleaded guilty to incitement to racial hatred after calling for countless innocent people to be burned alive in their beds

Nigel Farage didn't call the police on her, somebody else did. Instead, he, or his party, invited her onto stage

at the Reform UK Party Conference to receive this welcome. Our Planet Normal guest this week has become a living symbol of two-tier Britain

The sheer injustice she has suffered has shocked millions of people across Britain and indeed across the whole world

She's a wonderful mum, wife, beloved childminder, little kids from every corner of the earth

She's taken wonderful care of. So I am, of course, referring to Britain's favourite political prisoner

Ladies and gentlemen, please give the warmest of welcomes to Lucy Connelly

Alison Pearson and Liam Halligan there

playing the roles of Anton Deck in their bizarre X Factor tribute act

to a woman who had already been jailed for incitements of racial hatred

Richard Tice responded at the time by saying it's wonderful to see her back with us

and to hear her direct telling her story. I think that she has a huge opportunity

to help reform and help the cause of free speech. Presumably, if Lucy Connolly had posted a picture

of somebody else wearing a T-shirt, upon which her tweet calling for people

to actually be killed in their beds appeared, then they might have had a problem with it

or were indeed phoned the police or reported it to the authorities

So the question I'm going to ask you at the end of this is whether or not Zach Polanski is right

and the context of Nigel Farage's and his party's contributions to public discourse

means he shouldn't apologise. Coupled with the fact that there were a thousand hits

for the original post on Instagram, sorry, not Twitter, and after Farage and his friends started sharing the same image

the image that is incitement to murder, that figure went up to 3.2 million

I still think he should just apologise but I'm also reminded that when Michelle Obama said

when they go low we go high it somewhat backfired anyway here's Nigel Farage bigging up the IRA

now it's a bit early in the day so all I've got actually is coffee

but I hope you enjoy a few pints with the lads tonight

up the rah up the rah he got paid £87 for that

celebration of terrorism, murderous terrorism, support of the IRA, the Irish nationalist phrase

He told Mail Online that he didn't realise the meaning of the message

noting that he has had a face-to-face death threat from the IRA

You'd have thought, wouldn't you, that you'd double-check on things before accepting £87 to celebrate them

This one is about Richard Tice, not about Nigel Farage himself, but of course Tice and Zia Yusuf have been joining in the calls

for the Green Party leader who shared a picture of a man in a T-shirt

featuring a guillotine and the words, we're making plans for Nigel to face the full force of the law

Do you remember the Reform UK councillor that said, well, I don't need to tell you what he said

because this clip will remind you. One of your new Sunderland councillors, so a man who was elected to represent reform, suggested melting Nigerians to fill potholes

Is that person who's expressed those views somebody you are happy to see represent reform

This weekend we are celebrating our incredible successes. Like any party, you have internal party processes to look at where people have said or done the wrong people

But do you condemn those remarks? Laura, I condemn anything that is wrong and inappropriate

So, no. And the councillor concerned, Glenn Gibbons, was subsequently reinstated in the party

This is the man who called for Nigerians to be melted down and used to fill in the potholes

Now, listen, it's perfectly possible that you think a picture of a guillotine on a T-shirt

accompanied by the words, we're making plans for Nigel, means that you really are encouraging people

to put Nigel Farage on a guillotine. And you would also have to believe

that Glenn Gibbons really did want to melt down Nigerians and use them to fill in potholes

So you'd call the police on both of them, right? Wrong. Zia Yusuf, I forget precisely what his made-up job title is

but he's another one who's given lots and lots of money to the party and been given a job description as a consequence

he's very fond of calling opponents of his political party traitors. And I'll tell you how they respond to that allegation

after the very latest headlines with Matt Hewitt. James O'Brien on LBC

33 minutes after 12 is the time. David Aranovich, journalist and radio presenter

writes a rather splendid substack which this week turned its attention to the horrors or the dangers of using the word traitor casually

It's given me pause for thought, actually, I have to say. And I hope it gives others pause for thought

Here's Zia Yusuf, who is a big donor to Nigel Farage's political party

and has a job with them, although he's not an MP. Richard Hermer, Labour's Attorney General, has lied to the BBC

claiming reform wants migrants to drown in the Channel. Hermer used lawfare to hound British troops who had done nothing wrong

in one case, pushing him to attempt suicide. He is a traitor to his country

He attacked someone called Robert Jenrick. I can't remember what happened to him

Why are you continuing to lie, Robert? You said your party needs to own up to its mistakes

You are doing the opposite. You're a traitor to your country. There's another one here as well

Starmer's Attorney General, Richard Hermer, hounded British troops and ruined their lives as a blood sport

Herma is a traitor to his country. Another one. Recent events demonstrate why I view the Tory and Labour politicians

who created the burning injustice of modern Britain as traitors to their country

And then he wrote, a reckoning is coming. I don't know. If a T-shirt can be incitement to murder or incitement to violence

a reckoning is coming. Could that, do you reckon, could that be construed as any form of incitement

And I'm slightly confused about who he means when he talks about the Tory politicians who created the burning injustice of modern Britain

Do you think he means Robert Jenrick? Or Suella Braverman? Or 30P Lee Anderson

Or Danny Kruger? Or I can't remember any others off the top of my head, but you'd be amazed if you found out what party they're all in now

So we're up to nine examples of things that perhaps somebody else might have called the police over or demanded a apology

I turn your attention next to a character called Wayne Titley who won the Eccleshaw and Nossal Division for Reform UK in Staffordshire He stepped down just two weeks after being elected after it was found that he had shared various posts

including things like, why they don't position the Navy so as the big boats leave the shoreline

they intercept them and thunder them back using a volley of gunfire aimed at sinking them

It's worth reminding ourselves that Zia Yusuf was calling Richard Homer a traitor

for suggesting that Reform wanted migrants to drown in the Channel. And here is an elected Staffordshire County Councillor from Reform

calling for migrants to drown in the Channel. So who are you going to complain about there

Are you going to complain about the bloke who was calling for migrants to drown in the Channel by using a volley of gunfire aimed at sinking them

Or are you going to complain about the senior member of Reform UK arguing that they don't call for migrants to drown in the channel

Tricky question, that. I'm, of course, as ever, just asking questions. The response of Reform UK to this councillor's decision to resign

after his shameful social media posts emerged, he cited personal reasons. This is the bloke who called for people to drown

Didn't get a hero's welcome on stage at the conference. I think you have to call for people to be killed in their beds for that to happen

to be burned alive. That gets you the hero's welcome. This fellow resigned for, quote

personal reasons, prompting the party to respond. It's disappointing that the level of abuse

Wayne and his family have been receiving has meant that he is no longer able

to carry on as a councillor. I'm not aware of anybody calling for him

to be shot at by Royal Navy boats, but anyway, the level of abuse he received

was so awful, according to reform, because he could have been an excellent champion

and for the people of Echelschall and Nossel. And finally, things about which Reform UK chose not to complain

contact the police or apologise, is a candidate called Adele Taggart, who was found to have posted on social media pictures of

a picture of, and this is her own post, it's not a post of somebody else wearing a picture

wearing a T-shirt featuring this picture, this is a picture she posted herself

England's Chief Medical Officer, Chris Whitty, and Sir Patrick Vallance, the former Government Chief Scientific Advisor

a post of them saying, these two want stringing up blood on their hands

These two want stringing up blood on their hands. So there, and it was a fairly cursory

scan of my memory banks for stories that might add to Zach Polanski's permission

There are ten examples, and I've just remembered, a couple of you have reminded me, that if you attended or remember

when there were a lot of protests on the streets regarding Brexit, Brexiters were photographed on more than one occasion

with actual homemade guillotines. I remember one in particular featuring a European Union flag

as a sort of basis, base for a guillotine. Now, do you believe that those people

were genuinely intending to hang prominent remainers? Or do you think it was theatre

A physical equivalent to a figure of speech? I don't know. But they are currently queuing up to claim

that when Zach Polanski posted a photograph of a man in a T-shirt featuring a guillotine

and the words, we're making plans for Nigel, he was inciting murder

even though he has persuasively argued that he hadn't even clocked the picture itself

because it came in a large tranche of photographs. There are ten examples of comparable or worse behaviour undertaken not by people wearing T-shirts in tweets that were shared by members of reform, but by the actual members of reform, up to and including Nigel take a knife, pick up a rifle, Farage

and I don't know now actually to go back to the beginning

and remind ourselves of Zach Polanski's rationale for not apologising I don't know now whether he should or not

I was pretty adamant yesterday that he should have done on the grounds that nobody should be engaging in this sort of behaviour

but if the person demanding the apology does this kind of thing for fun

do you strengthen there? I honestly don't know I honestly don't know

03456060973 is the number you need to tell me what you think. Here's his reason for not apologising

Well, if I'd done it deliberately, I'd be apologising, but because this was a mistake

I think the important thing is that I point out it's a mistake, that I also make sure that I condemn political violence

and also, crucially, I make a commitment to be better on my social media. OK. Do you want to apologise, then, or not

No. The reason for that is because Nigel Farage, when I posted this or when the person posted it, it got less than a thousand likes. Nigel Farage

then took it, cropped it, so it made it look like I posted it, which I think was fundamentally

dishonest. It's now had 3.2 million views. So actually this is, this whole conversation has

been seen more because Nigel Farage, the Yusuf, and I think Richard Tice posted it. So I'm accepting

my responsibility in that I shouldn't have accepted that collaboration. I'm accepting that we all need

to condemn political violence. But I also think the reporting to the police

the ramping up of the language to say this is incitement to murder me, feels like that's also putting me in a dangerous spot

So what do you think? Should he apologise for it? I've apologised for things that I did by mistake

I can't remember loads of examples off the top of my head, but I posted a little video, I think last year

and I hadn't watched it to the end. I genuinely can't remember what the context was

but at the end contained some anti-Semitic comments. And as soon as I was made aware of what the full..

I didn't even post it. I just said on air, I've watched this video, it's really funny. And I described the bit of it that I'd seen

But thinking back, I'm not quite sure how. But other people obviously had watched all of it

and decided to try to pretend that I had. So I immediately apologized and said I had no idea

when I said that I'd enjoyed that video, that it went on to be profoundly unpleasant

So there's me apologising for something I did by accident. I still think that was probably the right thing to do

It definitely was the right thing to do. But Zach Polanski has a point, doesn't he

I don't know about the numbers thing. What do you think about the numbers thing? Does that matter

Because I might have just shared with you, no, I don't think that works for Zach Polanski

because you might not have known that this bloke in Lancashire called for a serving Labour MP to be shot

so by me bringing to your attention the fact that a man about whom Nigel Farage never apologised

nor condemned called for a Labour MP to be shot I have now increased the sum total of awareness of

that action and if I genuinely believed that was an incitement this is Zach Polanski's point

if I genuinely believed that was an incitement to murder I wouldn't have shared it with you

so I think Zach Polanski's point is if they genuinely believed this was an incitement to murder why would they have brought it to the attention of an extra 3 million potential murderers So that a bit more nuanced than I appreciated as well Do the numbers matter

And I think Polanski has said that he sort of aspires to being a sort of left-wing version of Farage

So he's speaking to populism there, which is, to me, not a pretty ambition

So is he almost becoming a victim of his own decisions and tactics

that's your question that's a record-breaking introduction but obviously that was rather more

than a monologue it was a very important reminder of how important it is for all of us to remember

what lies behind the latest public pronouncements of political figures and for example to claim deep

discomfort at either images it wasn't a blooming guillotine you're one but it was a it was a it was

a noose, you know, a gibbet. It was a gibbet. A scaffold and a hangman's

noose. I remember that. I remember seeing one demonstrator carrying an effigy of Theresa May

which described her as a traitor while another was marching around with a model of a scaffold and a

hangman's noose. I don't remember Nigel Farage reporting any of them to the police

or indeed writing heartfelt editorials for the Daily Mail about how unsafe

it all makes him feel or makes everybody feel so extraordinarily I've taken this all the way up to quarter to one

but I'm still going to be able to squeeze in your call

should Zach Polanski apologise I yeah I still think he should I don't see what he's got to lose

but maybe I'm missing something it would not as you know be the first time

James O'Brien on LBC And there it is, should he or shouldn't he

I think he should apologise because he has to be better than them

Zach Polanski, if he's serious about providing a political alternative to British voters

has to be better than the people who don't condemn their own colleagues

for sharing calls for Labour MPs to be shot. He has to be better than the party that invites a convicted criminal onto the stage

having watched herself a prison sentence for incitement to racial hatred. He has to be better than the people, the candidates

the party whose candidates called for Chris Whitty to be strung up

He has to be better than the party that is led by a man

who's threatened to take a knife to the civil service. He has to be better than the party whose leader has threatened to pick up a rifle

if Brexit doesn't go his own way. He has to be better than a man who shared the lies of an alleged rapist

while arguing that the actual genuine news sources were somehow misleading the British public

and arguably helped foment the violence that we saw on the streets

in the aftermath of the Southport murders. I think, I think, I think he has to be better

than the party who reinstated a councillor who called for potholes to be filled up with melted-down Nigerians

I think he has, doesn't he? Doesn't he? Caroline's in Milton Keynes

What do you think, Caroline? I was thinking yesterday, James, that you should apologise

And even this morning, I was tempted to think that you should apologise. But having thought about it, I don't think that you should

And my reason for this is that whichever way he turns, he's going to be put in an invidious position

But thinking about how the minds of the likes of the USF and Richard Tyson, Nigel Farage think

if Zach apologises, I think they'll throw their hands up and say

there you are, he's accepted, guilty, he's guilty, and they've already complained to the police

And if the police then do look into it and decide there's nothing to see here..

Which is what happens... It's an extra fuel to the fire for them to say, two-tier policing system

One set of rules for them, another one for them. Do you know what? I am. Because I was about... I did interrupt you there

but I managed to stop myself, because they investigated Farage over the threatened threats

to take a knife to the civil service. And they concluded that there was no case to answer

And I was about to say, oh, no, they can't do that, because exactly the same thing happened to him

So they can't claim two-tier policing, because Farage was also investigated for incitement

for relatively spurious grounds. but I'm presuming that they're going to act honestly or consistently

and that's probably a little bit optimistic of me, isn't it? I think so

I think they blow whichever way the wind's blowing, that's the way they'll go

But doesn't Polanski have to be better? Don't be bitter, be better

I think he has already been better. I think he gave a very good representation of himself

He's explained very cogently why he doesn't feel that he needs to apologise

I think that he has credibility and you know it's pandering to the bully in the playground

as well isn't it Farage is a narcissistic bully and it is that fine line

how much do you appease them how much is it then just pandering so when you apologise for

and then they could borrow this list of ten examples then I'll apologise for what I did

kind of yeah and that's what I think Polanski said I think

because of what they would do with the apology otherwise because if someone accuses

I shouldn't have posted a picture of a man in a t-shirt with a guillotine on it

but it would now look as if he was apologising for inciting murder

or for inciting violence which he categorically is not or clearly is not doing any more than Nigel Farage

was genuinely inciting violence when he threatened to personally pick up a gun or personally take a knife to the civil service so they yeah maybe a few people

suggesting that this is all a big distraction from the five million pound story that continues to

beset Nigel Farage if you're not aware of that story he secretly accepted five million pounds

from a foreign-based billionaire whose fortune is set to increase exponentially if Nigel Farage

becomes prime minister and introduces policies regarding cryptocurrency that they had actually

announced they were going to introduce. I'm not aware of any posted, like, document on, for example

social care or defence, like a carefully laid out, fully detailed policy position, but they definitely

had one on cryptocurrency. They subsequently deleted it. I'll leave you to speculate on why

that would be, but anyway, that five million quid story is not going anywhere. And of course

it's not the only inquiry, as Henry Riley reminded us yesterday. So it may well be a distraction

but you don't become part of the distraction by discussing this story

as long as you remember to keep all the other ones on the boil as well

Caroline, thank you. So there's a change of mind there. John's in Birmingham. John, what do you think

I just think it's like kids in a playground sort of g at each other

and, oh, if you apologise, I'll apologise. It's ridiculous. The facts seem to me

and Polanski said it last night, Yes, I inadvertently retweeted something that I shouldn't, and that was wrong

If you'd apologised for that, all this... In this would have gone, and it would have made Farage look a bigger idiot than he already is

Because he's, you know, they're trying to stir up division and animosity in the worst possible way

And it's just, I think most of us, you know, the great unwashed are sick of it

Absolutely sick of it. And it is actually a reminder of the kind of politics

that Andy Burnham seems to be successfully rising above at the moment, but we'll have to wait and see whether that lasts

The argument against what you say, I think I'm closer to your position than I am to Caroline's personally

if anyone's interested. But the argument against that, of course, is that by the time it reached our ears

the great unwashed John, it was an accusation of incitement to murder

so it would then any apology could as caroline pointed out could be manipulated or even construed

as an apology for the thing he was accused of by them rather than i think disingenuously and

absurdly rather than the thing that he actually did which is an inadvertent picture posting of a

bloke in a t-shirt yeah absolutely absolutely i mean the meme you know that t-shirt yes offensive

it is but does anybody in their right mind actually think that was intended to be go out

get yourself a handy guillotine find mr farage and stick his head in it no absolutely not any more than he any more than he literally intended to go and start stabbing civil servants in the event of his mythical Brexit

not being somehow miraculously delivered by Theresa May. But he's never apologised for that

He said he should have said an axe rather than a knife. I think it's just a poor demonstration

of very poor intellect that they haven't got the words, the nice words, the right words

that they can use them in a way that can have still the rousing effect

to their followers without being so ridiculous. It's a dangerous world out there

We don't need guillotines. We don't need knives. We don't need to talk about guns

We don't need gibbets. We don't need calling for people to be shot

We don't need to talk about melting down Nigerians. And just because they do it a hell of a lot more

than anybody else does, doesn't give anybody else the right to do it as well, and then not apologise. Yeah

But do you not think, though, some of this is just about grabbing airtime

Because the more... No, I think Farage is desperate to sort of rediscover his status with the right-wing media

He's desperately casting around for anything at the moment. That A, stops people asking him questions

about the secret five million quid he accepted from a foreign-based billionaire whose fortune is set to increase exponentially if Nigel Farage introduces cryptocurrency policies

that he has already promised to introduce. And the investigations into the young man that reportedly calls him Daddy is a member of an old aristocratic family and has been making donations both financially and in kind in interesting circumstances

So there's an element of that more than anything else. But also I think what he does is whine

His narrative of perpetual victimhood is a large part of his identity

Today they're whining about him not being invited to Andy Burnham's all-party or cross-party

consultation on social policy, even though by resigning as an MP, he excludes himself from consideration

So the whining is the point sometimes, John, rather than the thing being whined about

It's the noise that appeals to his supporters. It's the noise of whining. They respond to it like cats respond to cats

Yeah, we're the real victims here. That, I think, is the point. But, yeah, I think I'd probably agree with you

Just apologise for the thing that you did while making a mockery of the thing

that they're accusing you of doing. And I think, finally, John's in Shepton Mallet

John, what would you... Two Johns, honestly. You wait. All show for one John and then two come along at once

What do you want to say, John? Yeah, I'm trying to make it quick, James

Yeah, last night, I think he should have apologised only for the reason you said

There's ten points minimum that he could have listed after the apology

and said, like, I want for us now to apologise for X, Y, Z. Yeah

Well, all ten of them. You do it brilliantly. But before, because I know it's getting closer to the news, etc

Well it never bothers me mate but you carry on being all professional Well OK but what I was going to say is I think he got a good point here because where he pulled it down after 1 now it went to 3 million

or God knows how many idiots are out there. Now he's got a target on his back

times 3 million. Well, the point he made that the people who have been successfully persuaded

that he is dangerous, if they were, you know, unstable or whatever the appropriate words he uses

He did make that point. I mean, it all hinges on how many people actually believe

that these acts, these posts, these words, these pictures are genuine incitements

And of course, the dishonesty that's required to believe that a T-shirt was an incitement

but a call to actually shoot a Labour MP was not, is so high that the rest of us are left sort of a little bit baffled

as to how you can hold both situations simultaneously. That is why this is, quite obviously, two-tier policing of political language

being undertaken by the people who are normally lying about two-tier policing of people

It is coming up to one o'clock. That is it from me for today. If you missed any of today's show, you can listen back on the free GoBullPlayer app

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So do download that for free. From your app store now. Coming up at four on LBC, it's Tom Swarbrick

But now, standing in for Sheila Fogarty, it's Asma Mia. James O'Brien on LBC