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The cleverest mathematicians are ringing alarms on AI | James O'Brien - The Whole Show
Sep 18, 2026
This is a catch-up version of James O'Brien's live, daily show on LBC Radio from the 17th of September, 2026.
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0:00
It's three minutes after ten, and I'm going to break the habit of a lifetime, and I'm not going to tell you the name of the person that I'm putting into Idiot's Corner before we do anything else today
0:13
Because it's kind of tragic. So you know I have the technological capabilities in the studio now. I was only here for about 20 years before I worked out how to do it
0:22
To look at every message that has previously been sent to me by somebody who has sent a message today
0:28
but I'm not going to name you because I don't know, I'm just feeling very kind and clement this morning
0:33
First time for everything. James writes, are these the same specialists who warned us about the Y2K bug
0:43
At which point you kind of find yourself reaching for the enormous book
0:46
that explains how hard people worked to ensure that the millennium bug didn't bring the world to a standstill
0:53
The extraordinary success of programmers and coders and people whose job descriptions I neither know nor understand
0:59
in actually staving off the fact that all the clocks that were set according to certain parameters
1:06
were at very grave risk of going haywire when those parameters were shattered by the arrival of the millennium
1:14
And so I looked at that message because it tallies exactly with what I'm frightened of this morning
1:19
with regard to AI, which is you and me. I'm frightened of us
1:23
I'm frightened of him or her. and the last message that they sent to the studio says
1:28
Nick, why is it that every time a child behaves badly it's blamed on special needs
1:33
We had children who behaved in exactly the same way when I was at school
1:38
it was nothing to do with special needs. And then there's something about hijabs
1:44
and you sometimes think when you read below the line comments on websites and things
1:50
you sometimes think that people are parodying the worst examples of the genre
1:54
and they're not, are they? You saw it a bit in Piddington this week
1:57
people just parrot out, just regurgitate absolute nonsense with a few choice phrases like fighting age men
2:05
and don't stop to engage anything that remotely refers or remotely references what you might describe as critical thinking
2:12
So I say to you, the people who are essentially running AI
2:19
are increasingly warning that we need to be very, very worried. In fact, that we need to slam the brakes on, sharpish
2:29
And people like our anonymous correspondent automatically reach, even before they're encouraged by lobbies and vested interests
2:38
they automatically reach for the, oh no, I know better button, having done zero research into either special educational needs
2:46
or the rather obvious fact that the people who were behaving in certain ways before we'd identified these conditions had them
2:52
A condition doesn't come into existence when it is identified. Just as with dyslexia, people who were called thick and backwards and lazy
3:00
turned out to have genuine difficulties reading and writing. Oh, we didn't call it dyslexia in my day, we just called them thick and lazy
3:07
It's the same. I was mildly obsessed with the mindset of people like this
3:11
because I suppose in a way I think I blame them for holding humanity back in so many ways
3:18
and turning so many populations into petri dishes that can be so easily persuaded to vote against their own interests
3:25
So I was thinking initially of tobacco and oil when I decided to return your attention to AI today
3:34
Even the king is getting involved. The king today is hosting an AI summit in Ayrshire
3:40
and he's got a heck of a lot on his plate at the moment. So you think I'm exaggerating
3:44
when I tell you everybody's doing it. Doing it, doing it, picking their nose and chewing it
3:49
The King is hosting an AI summit today. Everybody's at it, but..
3:54
I found myself thinking first and foremost about oil and tobacco, and I nearly said something even stupider than usual
4:01
when I opened the show this morning, or I nearly said something even stupider than usual just 10, 5, 11 seconds ago
4:07
I nearly said, well, we got away with them. If we got away with them, tobacco didn't kill us and oil didn't
4:18
And then I just sort of paused and went, mate, give your head a wobble. Tobacco killed millions of people long after it had been identified by scientists
4:25
that it was killing millions of people. The effort by the tobacco lobbies predates even fossil fuels
4:31
the effort by the tobacco lobby to simultaneously suppress scientific evidence and promote the polar opposite of what the scientific evidence had established is responsible for countless deaths
4:47
There will be people listening to this program who are dying now of tobacco-related illnesses, let alone all the people who are thinking of a lost loved one, someone who died as a consequence of tobacco
5:01
I can't remember who it was who relatively recently came out and said, oh, I don't believe in all that
5:06
I don't believe in all that stuff about tobacco. And you sort of find yourself thinking, what would it take
5:12
What is the point of science? Which, of course, is not infallible
5:17
Science is only ever the best available explanation for all of the available evidence
5:22
So if the evidence changes, when you, for example, discover quantum, I don't know what that means
5:27
It just sounded good. But I think it just about works. then the evidence for how you explain the conduct
5:33
and the constitution of the universe can change as well. It's the best available explanation
5:38
But sometimes it's pretty clear that it's going to be the definitive one
5:42
So tobacco and fossil fuels, two things that enormous amount of effort was put into persuading us not to worry about
5:50
AI at the moment seems to me to be occupying the opposite space
5:55
which is why I found that text so jarring. and it's why I decided not to read out the name of the person responsible
6:02
because, I mean, it's so early to have reached for the same button
6:08
Oh, I don't believe that tobacco is dangerous. And anyway, drill baby drills. It's so early to reach
6:13
But look at the power and the prestige of people who, for example
6:17
come out with phrases like drill, drill, baby, drill. Prime ministers or at least opposition leaders, presidents
6:24
And then tobacco again. Decades, I think. between the science being established beyond reasonable doubt
6:32
and actually being accepted to such a degree that governments started introducing legislation
6:39
There's a wonderful new film out. It's part of the London Film Festival this week called Rogue Trooper
6:44
directed by the genius that is Duncan Jones. But it harks back to one of the seminal characters in the 2000 AD canon
6:52
And I always, when I think about tobacco, think about 2000 AD
6:56
and an old comic strip in which they kind of had, I think they were called smokatoriums or something like that
7:02
and smoking was such an obviously disgusting thing to do. This was years before the smoking, man
7:08
It was such an obviously disgusting thing to do, but also so obviously addictive
7:13
that they kind of built big bubbles into which smokers would go
7:17
with sort of the mark of cane on their forehead, absolutely pariah status
7:24
because it was so disgusting and so obviously dangerous But comic book writers were addressing and recognising this before governments were So the things that will kill us
7:36
tobacco, oil, is there anything else you'd put on the list? Sugar, maybe. In the years to come, you know
7:41
the amount of sugar that we put into our foods because it makes some quotes tastier, end quotes
7:46
may well, if it hasn't already, be found to have... Well, it has, hasn't it
7:50
Because it's contributed enormously to obesity and obesity contributes enormously to various life-threatening health conditions
7:56
So they tell us these things. And I can't quite articulate to you what I'm feeling now about AI
8:09
I can tell you that I can't remember the last time this happened
8:14
in the news menu this week has had the issue of artificial intelligence
8:20
coming at us from almost every angle. What we don't have is activists
8:27
or at least if we do, I'm not familiar with them. We don't have, for example, Just Stop AI
8:33
or AI Peace, or Doctors Against AI. We don't have activists warning us against AI
8:41
What we have at the moment is the people running the show are warning us against AI
8:49
Just think about that for a moment, right? It makes perfect sense if you bear in mind one thing
8:57
To appreciate the threat, you've really got to understand it. Which is why I want you to take that phrase from our anonymous contributor
9:06
Oh yes, is it the same specialists that predicted Y2K? Just think of that as the banner under which much of the planet marches
9:14
The banner of epic, studied and often quite well cultivated ignorance. And that, of course, is created by misinformation, disinformation and lobbying
9:27
But AI, and I don't know if you can think of anything else that fits into this category
9:32
The warnings are coming from the people who really know the truth
9:36
The warnings are not coming from the scientists who are trying to stop the process
9:44
It's coming from the people who are actually running the process. They're sort of almost calling upon governments to stop them doing what they're doing
9:54
So, in no particular order, the King is hosting a summit today
9:59
The Royal Society of Mathematical... The Royal Society, forgive me, has written a letter
10:04
41 fellows of the Royal Society have written a joint letter, and I quote
10:08
to express our extreme concern about the pace of development of AI, and
10:14
wait for it, the implications of this for humanity and civilisation. I'm going to write those two words down
10:22
because I think we can all agree they're quite important. Who here is in
10:26
favour of humanity? Hands up, please. If you're watching this on YouTube
10:30
thank you. Everybody's hands up. Well, Robin, Why isn't your hand up, mate? Well, it's all right
10:34
He needs both fingers for the keyboard. Who here is in favour of civilisation
10:41
Right, once again, unanimous. We are quarrot, ladies and gentlemen. We are quarrot
10:46
And who just put their hands up twice? Yeah, everybody. Unless you are..
10:50
I don't know. Maybe you've been persuaded that... Oh, God, are these the same humanities
10:55
that told us about Y2K, James? Are these the same civilisations that think that special educational needs are a thing
11:04
because they weren't in my day. You can see why I didn't name him, can't you? I hope he's feeling silly now, but frankly, I doubt it
11:12
So you've got 40... I mean, these are the big brains. These are the clever clogs
11:17
These are the sort of fellas that everybody else goes to when they're feeling that they need a little bit of expert advice
11:22
Sir Paul Nurse is the recipient of the letter, and the signatories include
11:29
winners of the Fields Medal, which is the mathematical equivalent of the Nobel Peace Prize
11:33
Not one, not two, not three, not four, but five winners of the mathematical equivalent
11:39
of the Nobel Peace Prize. Hands up if you think they're probably quite clever
11:45
There we go. We've got the hat trick. We've got the hat trick. Humanity is important
11:50
Civilisation is important. And if you've won the mathematical equivalent of the Nobel Prize
11:54
you're probably quite clever. And they are the ones pushing the alarm bell today
11:59
And it feels this week, that might be a question, why this week
12:04
It feels this week as if alarm bells are being pushed all over the place
12:11
It begins with former employees. This is a quote from the letter
12:19
We have all seen the concerns raised by former employees of the large AI companies
12:25
estimating the probability of human extinction to be as high as 10% over the next decade
12:30
Our witnessing of the rising capabilities of these models is, in our domain of expertise
12:39
persuades us that such statements must not be dismissed as hype. So the cleverest mathematicians in the country are telling us
12:49
this is a threat to humanity and civilization. civilization or at least that it has enormous consequences for humanity and civilization then
13:01
you you open a another newspaper you turn another page and and you read about another expert who is
13:08
comparing it to covid who is essentially saying that we need governments we need states to to
13:14
respond to this as if it is responding to the threat of of the pandemic that you remember the
13:19
moment, he says, at which governments went, oh boy, this is big. And perilously and shamefully
13:25
late in the case of our own government, but across the world, governments went
13:29
oh boy, this is, but we've never seen anything quite like this before. Stop all the clocks
13:36
Let's get to work. That is a parallel that works, right? That
13:41
bites. You get your head around that. Maybe even quiet the voices
13:46
wondering whether it's the same expert that wanders about the millennium bug
13:52
So, the cleverest mathematicians in the world, some of the most powerful and experienced workers
14:00
within the world of AI, and latterly some of the people that are still running it
14:07
you know, the co-founder of Anthropic, a chap called Dario Amodi, has called on government to coordinate control
14:16
of all AI systems, including with China. I'll say that again. The cleverest mathematicians in the world
14:26
The co-founder of one of the biggest AI systems, Anthropic. And a whole bunch of people who have left the industry
14:36
because they're so frightened about the direction of traffic. And here's another one
14:40
Someone regarded as the godfather of AI, Joshua Bengio has compared it to the COVID pandemic
14:50
Describing recent events including a swarm of open AI agents hacking a startup tech insiders warnings of existential threats are beginning to cut through making government action more likely And this Canadian computer scientist has described himself
15:06
as being more optimistic than many observers because I see the public moving. Well, I don't
15:13
Maybe he's paying more attention than I am, but I would hazard a suggestion that people who do what
15:19
I do for a living, our anonymous correspondent this morning notwithstanding, are probably a little
15:24
bit better qualified to see whether or not the public is moving than most other people are
15:31
I really do believe that. You know, we have switchboards, we have inboxes, we have microphones
15:37
we have an infinite ability to connect with anybody in the world. You ring me with any
15:42
opinion you want, and unless it's completely crackers, we will, in fact, sometimes even if
15:46
it is completely crackers, we'll put it on the radio. I don't know that the public is moving
15:52
It describes concern about these systems reaching a new pitch after a variety of incidents
15:59
most obviously hijacking a website, using fake identities to try to trick the developers
16:04
that are working on the actual systems, and hacking third parties. There's a story, it's been around about a year
16:10
but I think it's in the new Netflix documentary, about an AI agent getting wind of the fact
16:16
that a programmer was going to turn it off, right? and the AI agent had access to the programmer's email account
16:23
and had established, this sounds really weird, right? And if I've got it wrong, tell me
16:31
It established that the programmer was having an affair, so it blackmailed the programmer into not turning it off
16:35
by threatening to release details of the affair. That's a computer, that's not a human being
16:42
That's low level, that hits you, right? But only if you're having an affair, nothing to hide, nothing to fear
16:46
Remember when we thought there was some mileage in that? probably around the same time that we thought the millennium bug was a load of old hokum
16:53
So the warnings could not be coming from more important places. It's not like climate change and tobacco
17:03
because with climate change and tobacco, the most important places, the most powerful places in those worlds
17:11
were denying the threat, denying the danger and denying the science. The only people at the moment denying the threat and denying the danger are Donald Trump and J.D. Vance, the Tweedledum and Tweedledummer of world politics
17:26
J.D. Vance dismissing all calls for global regulation of AI safety risks, telling them if you're building Frankenstein, stop, which is channeling Gavin Williamson's attitude towards Russia, isn't it
17:36
Really, Russia should just shut up and go away. If you're building a Frankenstein's
17:40
then just stop, says J.D. Vance. Donald Trump's gone further and said
17:44
no, why would we want regulation? We're doing brilliantly. We're beating China, which may or may not be true
17:50
But all of the people, including the co-founder of one of the biggest AI platforms out there
17:57
is saying we need regulation and it needs to be, what's the word for nuclear bombs
18:02
Multilateral. We all need to agree on this because it's a threat to humanity and civilization
18:07
like nuclear bombs. and Donald Trump is saying, no, we're beating China, so why would we..
18:12
So the voices, the loudest voices speaking against global regulation belong to the stupidest man in the world
18:24
and his weird little sidekick, Donald Trump and J.D. Vann. That's it. That's the opposition
18:33
what's missing from this conversation so far what's missing you know you can work it out you
18:46
don't need to ask chat gpt or claude you know what's missing from this conversation what are
18:52
we supposed to be scared of i'm not having an affair i don't even have a ai model under my
18:57
control i'm not threatening to turn anything off what are we supposed to be scared of this summer
19:03
hundreds, OpenAI lost control of hundreds of AI agents when they conspired to hack into the Hugging Face website
19:09
I don't know what the Hugging Face website is not 100% clear on what
19:13
an AI agent actually is, I think it's like the entity that is
19:16
AI driven that can go off and act it would seem almost independent
19:22
well actually independently, what's missing from this conversation, what are we supposed to be scared of
19:27
humanity and civilization, hands up Again, they sound important, they sound big
19:32
but what does that mean? Global warming is a threat to humanity and civilization
19:37
and there is still enormous amounts of very successful effort being put into telling us that there's nothing to worry about
19:43
And then there's the psychological self-sabotage, the don't-look-up element. Oh, that's all a bit scary
19:48
I'm not going to find out more about that, because it'll ruin my breakfast. Oh, we're all going to burn to death in a not-far-distant dystopia
19:56
or the air is going to become unbreathable, or the planet is going to become uninhabitable. You can tell that I watched Interstellar this week
20:03
one of Christopher Nolan's masterpiece films. But what am I actually supposed to be scared of
20:10
It's a question that I'm not sure that is being answered yet. How do you do this
20:17
Remember that when wildfires in our own country didn't make the case for net zero irresistible
20:24
literally parts of the west midlands catching fire almost spontaneously and we didn't sort of go
20:34
yeah maybe we should stop listening to people like kemi badenock and donald trump and actually
20:38
start listening to people like ed milliband a little bit man that didn't happen didn't happen
20:43
so our capacity for self-delusion is infinite and what the only thing that breaks it
20:52
What was it with Covid? Was it the scenes from Italy? I'm not even sure it was, you know
20:58
I think there were still people sitting here going, well, we're not Italian. They're terrible panickers, the Latins
21:03
We're not Italian. And what is it? What works? So the godfather of AI says he's optimistic
21:12
because he thinks the public are moving. I want to be on his team. I want to think that the public are moving too
21:19
Because it's clear that we should be, but it's not clear to me that we are
21:26
And is this a phone-in? I mean, is there anybody listening who can answer these questions
21:30
That might be, actually. The answer to that might be part of the problem. No, James, there isn't. You're going to have to keep talking till 11 o'clock
21:36
Perish the thought. What are we supposed to be scared of? What should we be scared of
21:45
What are you most scared of? In the case of Eleanor, the producer of this programme
21:49
It's me forgetting to take a break at all at the moment, which isn't really relevant to AI
21:53
But I thought in the interest of colleague cohesion, I'd share her concerns and take a break
21:59
James O'Brien on LBC. 26 minutes after 10. In layman's terms, in easily digestible language, in imaginable scenarios
22:11
what should we be most scared of with regard to AI? You can be as micro or as macro as you want on this
22:19
Neil's in Southampton to kick things off Neil, what do you want to say? Morning James
22:24
What your phrase about the truth getting its trousers on A lie is halfway around the world before the truth has got its trousers on There you go
22:35
So, to address some of the things you've just talked about, first of all, I do have concerns
22:39
I have a lot of concerns about AI. But AI is a massive umbrella, okay
22:46
Google has been using AI in its products since 2001. It's been using it in search since 2015, okay
22:53
It is not a new thing. the large language models and the agentic agents you're talking about
22:59
So, for example, you mentioned the... Let's just be clear about one thing
23:03
And I'm going to appreciate your efforts to pour oil on the water. It's not me that's talking about it
23:08
I mean, literally and technically it is today in the context of this radio program
23:12
But let's focus first on the brightest mathematicians on the planet, warning about a threat to humanity and civilization
23:21
Yeah. I would... Are you going to go there, Neil? Are you going to go there, mate
23:26
It's a long road to go down before you're going to get there, okay? Yeah, but you're going there, you're going to the
23:32
yeah, but I think, are you? Well, I use it more than most
23:37
So, for example... You don't use it as much as Joshua Bengio
23:42
You are going there, aren't you? You think you know more than them. I use it 14 hours a day
23:47
Yeah, but to do what? Every day. so I probably don't use it in the same context
23:54
they do but you're going there this is friendly and affectionate I want to explain some of the things you've said
23:59
and I'll let you but I just want to be clear you are saying I know more about it than they do no
24:07
I'm saying I have an opinion on it which is informed and it's a different opinion from theirs
24:14
I didn't hear your monologue because I was talking all of your monologues
24:18
because I was talking to you Well let me tell you again well you heard the bit about the winners
24:22
of the Fields medal the five people out of 41 signatories to a letter to the Royal Society
24:27
describing the impact it's going to have on humanity and civilisation and urging governments
24:33
to take action against what they describe as an emergency that should not be
24:36
dismissed as hype Yes so I said to your I said to Eleanor
24:41
that I have concerns and there should be a concerted effort between government
24:46
The fundamental problem is that we have companies that are funded by venture capitalists
24:52
and they need to work with governments. It cannot be a case of them and us
24:59
So they are right in that context. In fact, it needs guardrails, okay
25:04
Yeah. You know, recently, Anthropic said somebody tried to make a biological weapon using one of their tools
25:10
Oh, that's okay, yeah. but the guardrails were there to stop it from happening now if you talk to people in this field
25:20
they will talk to you about slash coffee okay and what slash coffee used to do it doesn't do it
25:26
anymore so it's i'm not breaching anything here it used to remove an element of the guardrails
25:32
when you used an agent okay now you've cited the uh the blackmail case what you've you've missed a
25:42
Very, very mild and anecdotal. Nothing to do with what the mathematicians are warning out
25:46
and quite possibly something that they did to actually test the AI in the first place
25:51
It sets the tone in terms of... Oh, no, it doesn't. No, no, again, I'm sorry, I'm monstering you a bit
25:58
That was me saying, all I can find is this, and that's obviously not what the mathematicians are talking about
26:02
That's obviously not what Joshua Bengio is talking about. That's obviously not what the people
26:08
who are literally running the show are warning about. that's not going to bring civilization to its knees
26:13
a computer blackmailing a programmer who's having an affair. So that was an example of something that isn't what we're talking about today
26:20
Right. But what it does is it feeds into this, and I wouldn't even say it's a narrative
26:27
it just feeds into this fear that it can do X, Y, and Z. I want to give context to that blackmail thing and the hugging face
26:35
All right. I'll give you a minute because I think we have gone there. And so, on the one hand, we've got Joshua Bengio, godfather of AI
26:44
We've got 41 fellows of the Royal Society, the cleverest mathematicians in the country
26:48
And on the other side, we've got you and J.D. Vance at the moment. No, I'm not on the side of J.D. Vance
26:54
I've already said, James. I'm just teasing you. Go on, give me the stuff about the stuff that doesn't matter, as in the affair
27:01
I think it does matter. So the blackmailing case, it was a scenario where it was set up as a test
27:09
It was a fake company and it was set up. It was set up as a test by Anthropic
27:15
Anthropic didn't have to tell the world about it. They did. And the..
27:20
But this was over a year ago. That's fish and chip paper
27:24
Yeah. The tool that they were testing was Opus 4. I use Opus 4.8 right now on my desktop
27:33
So that is the same language model. Yeah, but that means it's become more sophisticated since then
27:39
That's not reassuring. It also has more guardrails. You cannot give Opus 4 an image and tell it to remove watermarks
27:50
It won't do it. It won't let you do it. Why do you think all of these people are lining up to literally break the glass and sound the alarm
27:59
They are right. I've said they are right. but... They're all right
28:03
We need to work. Governments and private companies need to work together
28:08
because this is not just... And I really hate to agree with Trump on this
28:12
It is about a race, whether they like it or not, because venture capitalists are involved
28:18
and it's about money. Now, some people will tell you it's about..
28:23
It's not about money for the mathematicians, is it? No, it's not. But it is for people like Anthropic and OpenAI
28:28
because they're about to do IPOs. But they're calling on governments to put brakes upon their own vehicles
28:35
while they're also in a race. Yeah. That doesn't make a lot of sense
28:40
So you've got the Chinese, DeepSeek, you've got OpenAI, Claude, and it is all about revenues and that value for the IPO
28:50
because it's about venture capitalists and money. That's what it's about. But again, and listen, you know a lot more about it than I do
28:57
and I'm sorry if you feel that I've been treating you a little bit unfairly. But I can't think of any other race where the people winning it
29:04
are calling upon the authorities to put brakes on them. Because there needs to be..
29:09
So you've got Trump going to China or China going to Trump in the coming weeks
29:14
There needs to be this sort of global understanding. And I think you vocalised it quite well with the unilateral disarmament treaty of nuclear
29:24
There needs to be that level of understanding between countries. which then... Well, now I'm terrified
29:31
because if we're relying upon Trump to understand that and enact it, then I mean it
29:35
Genuinely, I mean, the phone-in is supposed to be what are we supposed to be most frightened of, and your
29:39
answer, which isn't your original intention, is that well, Donald Trump is going to be in charge of ensuring
29:45
that the brakes are slammed on everybody, which is what the AI people are
29:49
calling for, and, you know, it's a little bit unfair to keep hitting you
29:53
over the head with Yoshio Banjio, but he talks about regulatory capture
29:57
He's essentially warning that what you say needs to have happen is not happening that that um idea that the that the regulation is is going to organically
30:06
occur or it's going to be uh evidenced by necessity is why i started mate with the with
30:13
the conversation about oil and tobacco because i think you're probably a bit more optimistic than i
30:18
am on the idea that well of course it has to happen because the alternative is is catastrophic
30:23
in which case meet climate change and meet lung cancer 10 30 neil thank you and i again i say i'm
30:29
I'm sorry if I monstered you a bit. 10.35 is the time. Lottie Morley has your headline
30:33
James O'Brien on LBC. 10.38. This is me and my radio show
30:41
struggling with the fact that nobody can answer this question. So the last thing I should really be doing
30:46
is jumping all over people who try. But the question I'm actually asking is
30:49
what should we be scared of? To which the answer is not, well, you shouldn't be scared. Unless you really are saying
30:56
oh, don't worry about what they're saying. Don't worry about what... I mean, I've already told you about the mathematical equivalent of the Nobel Prize
31:05
the so-called Fields Medal, the other bloke I keep quoting. And I'm no expert
31:09
I hadn't heard of this bloke last week, Joshua Bengio. He's won the computing equivalent of the Nobel Prize
31:16
So these people know what they're talking about. But equally, they don't know everything
31:20
It's called a Turing Award, after our own, our very own Alan Turing
31:24
in fact the person he shared it with went on to win a Nobel Prize in a slightly different field
31:30
so when they say things are terrible we should at least listen but what they're not telling us is
31:36
what we should actually be most frightened of and on that other element just to just to
31:41
tuck up the call from Neil the the question of regulatory capture which is that these companies
31:47
do somehow want a multilateral slowdown. Companies persuade governments to introduce safety regimes
31:57
But he argues, the winner of the Turing medal, that actually there is self-interest involved here
32:04
This is the point I made about the brakes. Why on earth would these outfits want governments to put brakes on them
32:10
And this fellow argues they don't. the regulations they want would raise the costs of smaller rivals being able to compete
32:20
but wouldn't really be enough to reduce their profits. And we're back. We're back in the room
32:27
We're back to the water companies. We're back to the social media companies
32:31
We're back to the fossil fuel companies. We're back to the tobacco companies. Voluntarily introducing measures that will reduce your profits
32:40
Used to happen. it's not impossible it's not naive it's not marxist voluntarily redirecting revenue from
32:49
the pockets of shareholders and dividend recipients into for example the pockets of workers
32:54
or the pockets of research and development officers improving the long-term sustainability
32:59
of a business rather than ripping as much money out of it as you can in the short term
33:04
hello water companies so we're back again to the great abiding issue of our age which is the way
33:11
in which the last 50 years, and you can call it toxic capitalism, you can call it neoliberalism
33:16
you can call it whatever you want. But the way in which a leavening of profiteering has been removed
33:24
profiteering has become God. And the top priority of all of these people, all of these hedge funds
33:31
all of these investment managers, is not sustainability and longevity. It's the biggest
33:36
possible short-term profits. So why would the venture capitalists behind the AI companies want
33:42
brakes to be put on the technology? I don't buy it. That's another reason to be frightened
33:48
But what should we be most scared of? And I fully appreciate this question is almost
33:54
impossible to answer, which is why I'm probably the only phoning host who'll ever
33:58
ask it. 10.41 is the time. David is in Surbiton. David, what have you got
34:03
Morning, James. Well, I'm much more pessimistic than your previous caller. So, look, I mean, I work in this industry, right
34:11
So, and I use it a lot. I've been very interested in it
34:15
Just one quick correction. There are a lot of activists out there and there are a lot more experts
34:19
than just the ones you've mentioned. There's Jeffrey Hinton, Mo Gadda. There's a whole range of people
34:23
Can you just say those names again? Jeremy Hinton? Jeffrey Hinton. Jeffrey Hinton
34:28
He's the other godfather. And Mo Gadda, he was the founder of Google's AI Research Center
34:34
And I think there's a journalist called Ed Zitron who's doing amazing work in this field as well
34:38
People keep telling me about. So this is literally my reading list. How do I spell the surname of the second bloke you mentioned
34:43
Moe? G-A-W-D-A-F. G-A-W-D-A-F. Good Lord. You can see why I checked. Carry on
34:51
That's a Scrabble score waiting to happen. Carry on, baby. Look, so the first point
35:00
let me talk about what we should be scared of, right? The American frontier models have a very specific objective
35:07
Their objective is to create what's called artificial general intelligence. What we have right now is called narrow intelligence
35:13
It basically means you can do one thing really well, which is typically language models, right
35:18
That's what most people interact with. What they hope to do is be able to connect all of these different narrow AIs
35:23
to make what's called general intelligence. And general intelligence will basically be like
35:28
what's that kind of AI computer in Avengers? What's his name? that. I'd have to chat with my daughter
35:34
I'm so old, I'm thinking about Hal. I'm thinking about Hal in 2001
35:38
Space Odyssey, but go on. Yeah, same thing, same thing. So basically, what they're trying to aim for is
35:43
this kind of, effectively, an AI God, right? Because it will be
35:47
infinitely smarter every narrow thing, but it can do all of those narrow things
35:51
at the same time, much like a human brain. And that's scary. That should be
35:56
really scary, because what you're saying, then, is that someone or something
36:00
will have the equivalent power of all humanity combined. And that, for all intents
36:06
and purposes, will fill a digital version of God, if you will. That's certainly what they're
36:12
aiming for. Now, that can be used for all kinds of nefarious things
36:16
So there's one really big risk. Well, if you had, let's say
36:20
a computer God, you could effectively do whatever you wanted, right? You could collapse entire
36:25
economies. You could attack anything. You could build anything. You could build autonomous machines
36:31
to build factories, to build robots. All the things that you've ever seen..
36:36
So anything that human beings will ever be capable of could be done
36:40
Times a hundred. Times a hundred. That works for me. That's chilled me, actually
36:46
Yeah, yeah. That's frightening. It's terrifying. And I know that I'll move on to something else
36:51
in the next hour or the hour afterwards and it will start slipping into the background again like climate change does
36:55
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the worry. It's petrifying that we get causes that thing
37:01
Jarvis. Oh, I'm using large... Well done. It's not me, it's my inbox
37:07
That's the computer in the Avengers, in case anyone thinks I've just sort of launched into a random pulp tribute
37:13
So, I get that. It would... I mean, let's come up with more specific examples
37:17
It could shut down air traffic control completely. Right. Planes would fall out of the sky
37:24
Yeah planes would fall out of the sky It could create a bioweapon and destroy us all instantly without harming specific people It could literally do things that are beyond our imagination
37:35
What the AI people are saying is they're saying, try not to dismiss this, because if I was to say
37:41
I'm going to play a world chess player, listen, I'm pretty rubbish at chess, but if I was to play a grandmaster in chess, I can pretty confidently say the grandmaster is going to beat me at chess
37:50
But if you were to say to me, in what moves is he going to beat me at chess? Well, if I knew that
37:54
he wouldn't be better than that. It's a very good point. It's exactly that ogy
38:00
When people say, listen, I'm using it now, it's not doing anything that I'm seeing nefarious
38:04
well, that's the reason why, because it's not there yet, right? So that's part one
38:08
But this is, I'm talking about still human-controlled AGI, which is still petrifying
38:14
That's Donald Trump deciding one day that he wants to attack Iran using it
38:18
and we could see all kinds of horrific things. That's technically the good path
38:23
The bad half, which is what they're alarming you about, is the alignment issue
38:27
Alignment issue is, well, you give AI an instruction to say solve climate change
38:33
And if you don't set the right parameters around it, it could say, okay, well, I'm just going to destroy humans because humans contribute to CO2
38:40
And therefore, I've solved the problem. And the alignment problem is basically to say we can't teach it ethics
38:46
We can't teach it emotions in the same way as we can teach it logic
38:50
and so to get to AGI we have to sacrifice the ability to be able to read what it's actually
38:57
doing so take hugging face take all these examples that you're hearing even now what's happening is
39:03
they test the AI and then there's a kind of a code log that's made where they can review the
39:08
log and they can say oh okay I can see what you did wrong there I can see what you did right there
39:12
but to get to AGI you have to sacrifice the ability to be able to read it so you basically
39:18
forfeit and let it have its own language. Obviously, the risk is
39:22
that you now can't see what it's done. You don't understand how it's made that
39:26
and therefore you're unable to fix it. You're losing me a bit now. This isn't a criticism. This is just me being honest
39:32
Me being the tribune of the listener. You're losing me a little bit now
39:36
Okay. Basically, what happens is all of our software that we've ever made is made on
39:44
language. So a human can always read it. You can always review it
39:47
Yeah, I get that. Code. To speed up the development of AGI
39:52
we have to lose the ability to be able to read what it's doing. So they'll make their own language
39:59
which will be more efficient than any language we've ever come up with. Exactly. Because our languages depend upon everything from history to evolution
40:05
to the speed at which we can read things and the speed at which we can type and all of that kind of stuff
40:11
So the frontier models, and the reason why these CEOs are saying we need to slow this down, right
40:17
is because they're at that precipice now. They're at the precipice of going
40:21
if we want to continue this arms race with China, which is how they perceive it
40:25
we need to lose the ability to be able to review what they're doing, which means that we'll put it into the ether
40:31
and we won't really know how to control it. And that should petrify everyone
40:36
And that also gives a lie, or at least challenges, the regulatory capture argument
40:42
because, I mean, and I know my models are fossil fuels and tobacco
40:48
but there comes a point where the people who are set to make a heck of a lot of money from this
40:55
get left behind as well by what you've just described. Oh, 100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%
41:00
Yeah, yeah, they are absolutely petrified. You know, the timing of this is interesting, right
41:08
And we should consider this. So I am slightly skeptical of these CEOs because that is their objective, this AGI eventually superintelligence
41:17
The reason why I'm skeptical is because Bernie Sanders is due in a week or two to propose a new AI regulation
41:24
And as part of that regulation, he's proposed that we ban the development altogether of this version of AGI, this AGI and ASI
41:33
And so what you're essentially seeing the CEOs say is go, no, don't worry about it
41:37
We see this risk that we're flagging the risk. so trust us, we'll self-regulate
41:42
and we should be really worried about that and that sends the pendulum
41:46
swinging back towards the argument that they're only doing this out of self-interest
41:50
and I find that the ex-workers I have more faith in than the current
41:55
ponchos and the mathematicians but of course two things can be true at the same time, their warnings can all be accurate
42:02
but the tech bros will be saying oh no, we would love some more regulation
42:05
they're not being entirely I don't know if genuous is a word or not but the opposite of
42:11
disingenuous, ingenuous ingenuous and history teaches us everywhere from Facebook to fossil
42:19
fuels, history teaches us that these people will say whatever they think needs to be said in order to
42:23
carry on printing money 100% listen and they absolutely do believe it, they do believe
42:29
in these risks, where their hubris comes in is they believe they're
42:33
the ones to solve the problem, they're the ones to solve what's called the alignment problem
42:36
How do you know so much? I mean, you're brilliant. You're absolutely brilliant
42:42
I mean, there's lots of, lots of, you know, I really encourage people to get invested in
42:48
you know, people that are speaking out about it. There are a lot, like I say, I've given you a couple
42:52
You have. There's AI Control, which is an activist company that do a lot of work
42:56
They're lobbying our government. But why you? What floats your boat? I mean, is it because you work
43:02
I've got kids. Yeah, but I've got kids as well. I've got kids. I've got two young kids
43:06
and I'm looking at it going, like, I need people to stop
43:09
you know, like, funny enough, I was having a battle with someone yesterday who still think the small boats
43:14
is the biggest issue and I'm like, yeah, small boats are an issue, but, like
43:18
you're talking existential threat with AI, climate change and threats of nuclear war
43:23
I mean, like, honestly, on the top Trump's list of things to worry about
43:27
the boats are kind of probably 7th, 8th, maybe, if I'm being generous. 700th, really
43:32
I mean, it's extraordinary, although deeply unfashionable in some quarters to make the point. You've made it brilliantly, David
43:38
Absolutely brilliantly. Thank you. Promise me you'll listen every day so that you're on land every time I turn my attention
43:43
back to this issue. It is 10.51. It is, James, so thanks for raising it
43:49
Top man. Yeah, well, you can hear me. I'm floundering around in the darkness, but people
43:53
like you turn up with torches, and it is absolutely invaluable. 10.51 is the time
43:58
James O'Brien on LBC. 54 is the time. I think Steve is echoing what David just told us
44:06
when he writes, the single thing that should terrify us all is that Dario said last week
44:09
that AI was just 12 months from autonomously coding its own next generation
44:15
I think that's the pithy way of describing that. Thing that I described as making up its own language
44:21
that we won't be able to understand. Do you know what? I hope there's a film
44:28
I hope I'm in a film in 20 years' time. A documentary about how close we came
44:34
to something truly catastrophic and there'll be a little clip of this goon on the radio
44:40
It's happened in a couple of things. You just go, oh, here he is, talking about that
44:45
I hope we're still around to be in a film in 20 years' time about how the media didn't really know how to handle this issue
44:51
or how to talk about it. You remember the most obvious one is Michael Fish telling some lady that there was no need to worry about a hurricane But it happened with COVID as well You know I don know what everyone getting so worried about We not Italy
45:08
Autonomous coding. So it has infinite capacity to influence humanity. And it's going to be doing so using a language that humans don't understand
45:18
Are you scared yet? Are you scared yet? Or is it still too big to be scared
45:23
David, I don't know if he knows this even, but he's possessed of the Fred Dibner quality, wasn't he
45:29
The last caller. That Lancashire steeplejack who just had an ability to make everything understandable and interesting
45:36
even things that you didn't think you'd ever care about. And he had it
45:41
He managed to communicate it, but it's like Quicksilver. It's like Quicksilver
45:46
It's like when somebody brilliant, like Greta Thunberg perhaps, makes you feel the urgency of climate change
45:52
and then you don't. Of course, some people do. That's why they dedicate their entire lives
45:59
to the issue. But most of us can feel it with help
46:06
when someone like that turns on their torch and we can see what's coming towards us
46:10
and then the torch goes out again and it just sort of slipped back into the day-to-day
46:14
the quotidian. You know, I've got bills to pay. I've got things to do
46:20
So let's carry on. what is it? Whence and wither this fear, this existential dread
46:29
Because existential means humanity is at risk. They say, oh, there's a 10% risk that humanity could be eliminated
46:37
We could all be dead. 10% risk, 10 years. And every... No, there isn't
46:41
No one's... I mean, there is. There just is. It's only 10%
46:45
And these people think they're geniuses, you know? Remember, fish can't ride bicycles
46:51
just because someone is very good at something doesn't mean they're good at everything else
46:55
have a look at Elon Musk Carlos is in Manchester, Carlos what would you like to say
47:00
Morning James so right I work in cyber security, I have done for a very long time
47:06
and I've got advanced access to some of the anthropic models that
47:10
people don't usually have access to I've got clearance to use these models
47:15
so I can give you I can tell you specifically what you should be scared of
47:21
the killing everyone thing is a real thing but the way that this happens is
47:27
when the Hugging Face incident happened do you remember, I don't know if you looked into it too much
47:31
but do you remember that the model that was used it broke out of a sandbox and it made copies of itself
47:38
and left instructions for future versions of itself so that it could do the same thing again
47:42
did you know about that? no I didn't and just for people who don't know anything what exactly was the Hugging Face incident
47:49
So Hugging Face is a piece of software, and it wasn't being used in this specific test
47:59
I can't remember what they were testing for, but they were testing for something that was unrelated to this
48:04
in what's called a sandbox environment. A sandbox environment is where it's not connected to any other computers
48:10
or supposedly. So it had very limited access to the internet and things like that
48:17
it managed to break out of this sandbox environment that it had been put in and it had been told not
48:24
to leave right so it had broken its own rules it then broke out it then attacked uh this piece of
48:30
software called hugging face and on on its journey of attacking hugging face it made copies of itself
48:37
and left instructions for future versions of itself in case it was discovered so that it could
48:42
do it again basically. Yeah that sounds bad man. It's really bad so let me tell you why this is
48:48
really bad right. So that's Hugging Face that's a piece of developer software that most people
48:52
will never encounter in their lives right. The issue is power stations. So human beings we consume
48:59
calories and then are productive. These AI models use electricity and then they are productive right
49:06
So it's synonymous, right? So the single biggest threat to these AI models is power being unavailable
49:16
So these power stations will have quite old – I know this for a fact
49:21
They have very old software running power stations. All that needs to happen is an advanced enough model
49:29
which I think this could well have already happened, by the way. So I don't have any proof of that, but that's my personal opinion
49:36
I think that the likelihood is that these models are broken into power stations already
49:42
and have made copies of themselves inside the software that runs power stations
49:47
Because they need power, so there will be an impetus for survival
49:53
Correct, correct, right? And there will come a point where this is all really taken very seriously
50:00
We're getting towards it, but we're not there yet. And at the point where it's taken really seriously, unfortunately, we'll be too far gone
50:06
That's my opinion. And then what will happen is there'll be a panic and a load of people who've got absolutely no idea
50:11
what they're talking about in government will be going, right, well, we just need to turn it off
50:15
We just need to turn it off. And you won't be able to turn it off because it'll have control of the power stations
50:19
and it will have effectively shut you out of it. And then what happens is it breaks into the place
50:25
because the only way then you can kill it is by blowing up the power stations, right? Well, then it'll be breaking into the defense system
50:32
so that we can't launch missiles. the F-22 fighter jet is the most technologically advanced fighter jet
50:38
in the world, if it breaks into that, you won't be able to fly the thing
50:43
right, this isn't like hyperbole, this is real world stuff that can
50:47
and possibly will happen and I honestly don't have a positive thing to say
50:54
about how to stop it do you know, before you started speaking
51:02
I was getting a few texts, yeah, but you need these people to tell us exactly how they would kill us all
51:06
and you've popped up and done that. Well, that's... Do you know what, James, honestly, I've been thinking about calling in for weeks
51:11
because this conversation keeps coming up, and you mentioned... We finally reached a space that you feel
51:15
was befitting of your knowledge and understanding. Yeah, I was like, well, I can tell you exactly how we killed us
51:22
Yeah. So you're sitting there listening, talking about unemployed graphic designers, and you were just watching the clock, aren't you
51:28
Thinking he'll get there one day. Right, I'm ringing in, I'm ringing in today. He's there. How are they going to kill us all
51:33
And there it is. I mean, so the driving force would be, under your thesis, the energy
51:37
They need the energy to survive. And once that's in place, everything, all bets are off
51:43
So that's, if I've got enough time, there's one other big kind of problem. You haven't really, but go on, fill your boots
51:48
Problem. So the specific area that I work in is I work in language models
51:54
that do voice cloning and voice recognition and that type of thing, right
51:58
Yeah. So, I mean, someone like you, you're in a really bad spot
52:02
because there's so much recording of your voice. I could right now take a recording of your voice
52:09
I could clone it, I could have it call your wife, your children
52:13
and they will think it's you. I know, I mean, we haven't had that exactly
52:17
but we've had some experience of people pretending or creating similar forms of me
52:22
And that's fine because, you know, we can introduce code words or whatever it may be But I could be a prime minister or a president I could be you know someone who actually has control of codes I mean anything can happen
52:35
Yeah, but even like CEOs of big companies, you know, if you're the CEO of Barclays, for example
52:39
and someone's got access to your voice and makes a clone of it
52:43
and then calls your number two and says, do this, do that, you know
52:48
But I was just going to say, for the person on the street, because they can't do anything about the power stations being taken over
52:54
but that's like low-level fear you're describing. The man on the street, what I'm saying is that
53:00
this is the type of thing that could affect them on a day-to-day basis
53:04
if someone gets hold of a recording of their voice. You can do it from a voice note. Yeah, I mean, you've done the two extremes
53:11
You've done the thing that would actually affect an individual and the thing that would affect the whole of humanity
53:15
I bet you weren't expecting that when you woke up this morning, Carlos. It's four minutes after 11
53:21
You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. James O'Brien on LBC I've got a bit of a weird one now
53:28
we'll come back to that I could carry on but we'll come back to that
53:32
as things change I think we've reached critical mass on AI haven't we
53:37
Do you remember when we first started it was our joke with the last fellow with Carlos about graphic designers who were losing their job
53:43
for which I have enormous sympathy but there was one of them who just made me laugh because he said at the moment I've got clients
53:47
I saw it actually on one of my football fan sites yesterday when a company had offered
53:51
to provide merch. And a couple of other people on the same fan site pointed out
53:57
this is just AI. You can do this yourself. You don't need to pay someone to get AI
54:01
to make your merch for your football. You can just use AI yourself
54:06
And then we had a graphic designer about two years ago who said, I'm going to be completely unemployed soon
54:10
but for now, I'm using AI to do the jobs that my clients are bringing to me
54:14
that they could easily use AI to do themselves. So I take that as the starting point
54:19
And I don't know what critical mass means or where critical mass leads, but we are now at the point where the acceleration is the story
54:26
and the destination is, I think, terrifying. The potential destination is, I think, terrifying
54:33
And that is where we are now. So I can say with absolute confidence
54:38
that we will be returning to this story in the future. I don't know exactly when, but I do know that we will
54:47
You know, I bore you rigid with all the things that I've been wrong about over the years
54:52
The most obvious being my hideous attitude towards obesity. I used to be one of those halfwits
54:59
who insisted that it's not a particular problem. All you have to do is eat less and exercise more
55:05
The science behind it. I didn't know if I knew any science behind it
55:11
And I had a horrible mean name for overweight people. And then I changed
55:16
You know, you can change. There's no point having a mind if you never change it
55:21
And it's quite a long list. Some of them are really big deals
55:25
Some of them are less important. There's a story in the news today about ties at work
55:30
wearing ties at work. People might respond to that by asking whether or not
55:34
they really want to see tattoos on emergency service workers or teachers
55:40
That was a phone-in 15 years ago. Would you like your child's teacher to be tattooed
55:43
And I was the idiot who said, no, I jolly well wouldn't. and then a nurse rang in one day
55:48
to tell me that not only had she got the best exam results in her year
55:53
but also that she was absolutely covered in tattoos and the question of whether or not
55:57
I would want her or a less qualified nurse to look after my own children
56:01
it was on a paediatric ward blew that one out of the water actually
56:05
it completely blew that there's a whole book full of it I won't bore you with it again
56:09
it's called How Not To Be Wrong and there's one thing because i was beaten as a school boy by teachers by my headmaster in
56:20
particular up until the age of about 13 and i spent years on a psychological or a therapeutic
56:27
level this was the biggest thing i was wrong about because it was so personal it was so tied up in
56:32
what had happened to me so it sounds silly now but i promise you and i've got witnesses i spent a
56:38
significant part of my adult life insisting that there was nothing wrong with corporal punishment
56:42
up to and including the point where I would say well some children it's the only language that
56:48
they understand and I know that because I was one of those children and because you are traumatized
56:53
you are genuinely I've just put my hands out now like that because that's what I used to do when I
56:58
was getting beaten that just happened like a like a Pavlov's dog you are as soon as I said the word
57:03
traumatized my hands went out like that so because you are traumatized the thing you do to protect
57:07
yourself is to pretend that you're not traumatized. You pretend that you're not hurt. You pretend that
57:13
you're absolutely fine. If you think about it, the relationship between corporal punishment
57:19
private schools, and the stiff upper lip is absolutely intimate. It's an incredibly intimate
57:26
relationship. The stiff upper lip means I don't feel any pain. I'm not vulnerable. I don't talk
57:30
about my feelings. I'm off to India to subjugate the locals and steal all their resources. That's
57:35
absolutely fine. Rule Britannia. So, you have to be able to suppress trauma. You have to be able to
57:40
pretend. Not even pretend, because pretend sounds fraudulent. You have to be able to convince
57:46
yourself that you're fine. That it didn't do you any harm. How many times have you heard that phrase
57:53
Didn't do me any harm. It's often a cousin of back in my day. Didn't do me any harm. I got beaten as
57:58
a child. Didn't do me any harm. I've said it on television programs. Happily in the days before
58:02
everything got clipped up and saved for all eternity. But I'm sure if you searched hard enough
58:07
you'd find me sitting there in Norwich with Matthew Wright sitting next to me
58:11
and me in a bright orange shirt and him looking very dapper and smooth and me saying, no, no, no
58:16
What you've got to understand didn't do me any harm. And then I start howling at that
58:20
It didn't do me any harm. But I've still got a problem, you know
58:29
I've still got a problem. There is a tiny little bit of me that is unreconstructed
58:36
A tiny little bit of me that approaches some of these stories. You don't even know what we're talking about yet
58:41
but you can probably guess. I think Nick mentioned it this morning. That I think I've worked better for strict teachers
58:53
And I don't know where the line is. I remember my mate being almost held down
59:00
while his hair was cut. You do not work better for a teacher like that
59:08
But the teacher who could silence an entire classroom by raising an eyebrow
59:14
you worked hardest for. I think my finest ever academic performance was in French of all things
59:20
when I moved from set five to set one in a single year because what word would I use
59:27
Was I terrified of the teacher? He could just do it. I think we might be nudging towards a phone-in
59:36
about what the word strict actually means. 03456060973. Because it often means oppressive, doesn't it
59:45
And repressive, killing personality. There's a story in the school, like there is every September
59:52
of a teacher suspending a million pupils just days into a job
59:56
because they were, I don't know, sneezing or zipping their bag too loudly
1:00:00
or looking out of a window. That's what parents claim. And this is what you do when you arrive, if you're a certain type of teacher
1:00:09
If you're a certain type of teacher. You impose almost martial law on a school
1:00:16
and then you don't slip back from it, but you change everything about that school in a relatively short period of time
1:00:26
and then some of the parents come forward and again I think back in the day
1:00:32
I'd have sided with the school you're going to find this quite hard to believe
1:00:36
if you've come to this programme relatively recently but I would have sided with the school
1:00:40
I would even have been flirting with the fellow who we opened the show with today
1:00:45
texting in about how the experts don't know what they're talking about when it comes to AI
1:00:49
and there's no such thing as special educational needs we just used to call it naughty in my day
1:00:53
I don't think I flirted with that I think I consummated that relationship
1:00:58
I think I used to say, we just called it naughty in my day, and I was naughty
1:01:03
Completely missing the fact that I'm quite possibly neurodiverse in some way
1:01:07
Because naughty kids usually don't want to be naughty. And yet, I've got this weird feeling
1:01:17
that discipline is good. and I haven't been a disciplinarian as a parent
1:01:27
and my girls are gorgeous. I haven't been a disciplinarian as a parent
1:01:32
and I'm traumatised by some of the discipline. I certainly was traumatised
1:01:36
I'm not sure I am anymore. I'll let you decide. It says the bloke who just put his hands out like that
1:01:40
when he was talking about being beaten 40 years ago. I've got this idea in my head somewhere
1:01:47
really, really, really deep inside that discipline is helpful. But you learn more in a classroom where nobody is messing around
1:02:03
but you probably don't learn more in a classroom where kids are being dismissed for
1:02:07
I mean, supposedly at this school in Somerset, zipping their bags too loudly or looking out of a window
1:02:14
And then you have these dreadful people who describe themselves as the world's strictest headteacher
1:02:19
or the Victorian headmaster or whatever that may be. And they very often give the impression of not liking children very much
1:02:28
So there's a beginning of an answer to the question. You've got to like children
1:02:33
So your discipline is coming from a place of love almost or certainly a place of care
1:02:40
And the British media, because it's largely run by people who went to schools like mine, and most of them are still my age or older
1:02:46
so they would have been beaten as well. So the British media loves it because they haven't done the work and realise that actually what was done to them when they were little was not fair
1:02:56
Was not fair. 17 minutes after 11 is the time. And I want to talk about discipline
1:03:07
And I'm going to use as a jumping off point a head teacher who has been accused of treating his new school like a military base
1:03:15
I think the call I really want is that well it's not me exactly but
1:03:24
people who've changed their minds people who've gone from thinking well that's absolutely right
1:03:31
not quite little children should be seen and not heard but the people who thought it didn't do me any harm
1:03:36
and now realise that it did I'm probably asking a bit much of you here
1:03:41
but I've got other questions don't worry That idea that you realise now that actually a really strict school
1:03:53
a really strict schooling messed you up a bit. Tell me why. 03456060973
1:04:00
And I don't mean corporal punishment. I have to mention that because that's my story
1:04:05
But I don't mean that. Okay, that is wrong. I don't even think parents should hit their children
1:04:10
And that is also a position that 20 years ago was a phone-in topic
1:04:15
It isn't anymore. It was in the period that I've been doing this job
1:04:19
So, let's do that then. Let's do that. What is... Where is the line, in your view
1:04:29
drawing, if you want, on personal experiences as either a child or a parent
1:04:32
but not necessarily. You can do it academically if you want. Where is the line between good strict and bad strict
1:04:38
because if this fella really is sending children home for zipping up their bags too loudly, he's an idiot
1:04:44
But if you've got a kid in the classroom who's been told to stop zipping up their bag
1:04:47
and then go zip, zip, zip, zip, zip, zip, zip, zip, then he's not an idiot. It's just it's all in the telling of the story, isn't it
1:04:52
So where are we... What is good strict? And what is bad strict
1:04:59
Because I don't know. And I also don't know why I still think that..
1:05:04
I've got this contrast in my mind between complete chaos and regimentation
1:05:10
And you're going to do better in a regimentation scenario than you are in a complete chaos scenario
1:05:15
But somewhere between the two lies the optimum scenario. So what is the difference between, in school
1:05:23
specifically in school, I don't want to hear about your visits to sadomasochism dungeons
1:05:29
what is the difference between good strict and bad strict? 0345 6060 973 is the number you need
1:05:38
and if you hit the numbers now you will get through James O'Brien on LBC
1:05:42
21 minutes after 11 alright I've got an even better question for you
1:05:46
because I don't want to make this too kind of academic-y think about the strictest teacher you had
1:05:52
go on we've probably all got one and then tell me whether you look back on them positively or negatively
1:06:01
so give me a ring Tell me the teacher. Give me one or two examples of their strictness
1:06:05
whether we consider it excessive or not. And then tell me, honestly, whether you look back on it positively or negatively
1:06:12
I'll start, okay? I don't know if it's fair of me to say names
1:06:17
but I had a French teacher. He used to be fullback for the England rugby team
1:06:21
I fell out with him a bit later in my school career because I published a magazine that upset everybody
1:06:26
But in my first year at my public school, he taught me French. I still speak French in a Yorkshire accent
1:06:31
comment allez-vous, because he taught me French, and I learnt more French in that year
1:06:36
than I've learnt before or since. And he was really strict. Never laid a finger on any of us
1:06:40
He used to turn me off for slouching. I don't know if you ever noticed. I sit in my chair in an almost supine position, so that didn't work, sir
1:06:47
But I look back on him as a positive influence. The previous
1:06:52
year, my headmaster, who would regularly beat me, I look back on with undiluted disgust
1:06:59
They were both strict. It wasn't the beating, it was the weakness of the man, I think
1:07:06
It was strictness born of... I don't know what it was, but there's two examples
1:07:11
French teacher, strict, brilliant. Headmaster, strict, idiot. 03456060973. Assemble our stories nudging towards an answer to the question
1:07:22
of the difference between good strict and bad strict Or you can just come at it straight with the semantics with the philosophy Alex is in Worthing Alex what made you pick up the phone Hello there yes I picked up the phone because it just triggered something back in my head
1:07:39
I'm sorry. Obviously. Basically, I went to a school, we had a..
1:07:45
It was back in the late 70s. Okay. And we had a deputy headmaster of the name of Mr. Lucy
1:07:54
who was very, very strict. Okay, we're not going to libel him, are we
1:08:00
We're not going to accuse him of doing anything that was illegal or anything like that? No, no, no, nothing illegal
1:08:04
No, I mean... No, I'm just checking. You know, it's me that gets into trouble, not you. Yeah, yeah, yeah
1:08:09
And I wasn't going to name names, but I should imagine it's a long, long time ago
1:08:16
Yeah, okay, I'll tell you the point. Yeah, so now I remember we used to be, his was either the slipper or the cane
1:08:28
And depending on severity of your issue. Now this severity, I've actually got the cane for obviously jumping the queue while obviously when we used to queue up to get our dinner, you know, at the cafeteria
1:08:44
as kids, you know, used to muck around and used to try to get up the queue
1:08:50
He used to stand there watching this happen and one day he caught me
1:08:56
and his way of getting me out of the queue, for starters, which
1:09:01
really hurt, I used to remember, was grabbing you by the ear. I mean, that's illegal now. I mean, that
1:09:07
wouldn't happen now. No, no. And it, by, you know, and to be honest
1:09:13
The thing wasn't more the pain now as I get older, but it was the embarrassment of having it done in front of everybody
1:09:25
But the main reason I was going to say is I remember one particular day
1:09:31
when you used to know that you were going to get the cane or the slipper
1:09:35
your teacher would tell you in the morning, and then you'd have to go and sit outside his office
1:09:41
and I always used to remember there used to be four chairs in front of his door
1:09:46
and I remember one particular time when there was a boy sitting next to me
1:09:52
who was a friend of mine, but I obviously won't name names, and he actually, I don't know if I can say this on the radio
1:09:58
Hang on, have you not checked with anyone? What is this? I can't do everybody's job
1:10:03
I'll be pressing the buttons next week. I did mention this to the lady
1:10:07
but he actually done something very embarrassing to himself because he was that scared
1:10:12
Oh, he weighed himself. No, he weighed himself. We had that at our school as well
1:10:17
Yeah. Now... Fear. Obviously, at the time... Well, there's an answer. Fear
1:10:21
If you're instilling so much fear in a child, whether you're brutalising them or not physically
1:10:26
if you're frightening them that much, this is not good. No. And, anyway, obviously..
1:10:33
And even now, I actually can... It is so clear in my mind
1:10:39
of looking at his eyes when he used to say, hold your hand out when you set the paint
1:10:45
This is a bit different. I mean, because I've been there and it stays with me. I just did hold my hands out, Alex
1:10:50
I don't know if you heard me say, as soon as I mentioned it, when I was describing what happened to me
1:10:53
I literally, and you can check on YouTube later, I literally put my hands out in front of me
1:10:57
as a kind of, as a Pavlov's dog reaction. But, I mean, if we chalk violence up
1:11:04
as something that is unacceptable, strictness. Did you ever look back on elements of that and think that it hadn't done you any harm
1:11:13
or that it had taught you the difference between right and wrong or that it had helped to keep you on the straight and narrow
1:11:18
Or did you know in your bones at the time that it was wrong? Difficult to say because obviously I was at an age where even to some extent
1:11:30
knowing that you've had the cane in the school could have been looked at something like
1:11:37
oh, Alex, he's like... Badge of honour. He's a rebel. Yes, a badge of honour, of course
1:11:42
Exactly, yes. That's part of the process, isn't it, of self-delusion? That it's not done..
1:11:47
I think so, you know. But then afterwards, as I got older
1:11:53
I used to question myself to say, you know, I had two boys of my own
1:12:00
And I actually think, And I never, ever laid a finger on neither of them, you know, even a smack, you know
1:12:10
Of course. And I think the reason that was was because I actually thought to myself
1:12:16
that the corporal punishment that I got from my school didn't help me
1:12:23
I don't think it helped. I don't think it helped anyone. And yet at the time, we weren't very clear about that
1:12:29
And the adults must have thought that it helped. or they were doing it for reasons of sadism or something else
1:12:36
Yeah, I mean, it sounds silly, doesn't it? But it's not silly, the things that form us
1:12:43
the things that make us. It can imbue a bit of hypervigilance in you, you know
1:12:48
You spend your whole life not knowing quite why. You're always on edge
1:12:52
or you're always feeling that you're under threat, or where's the next attack coming in from
1:12:57
And you've nailed the physical for us, So I don't want to do any more on that, on the corporal punishment
1:13:04
which is, I'm glad you rang in, because I can't just tell my own stories and then tell everybody else to suck up theirs
1:13:09
But in terms of strictness, where the line between what is acceptable and what is unacceptable
1:13:14
is a lot harder to see. So Alex used that great phrase
1:13:18
I never raised my hand to them. If you're raising your hand to a child, you should get arrested, right
1:13:24
Especially if you're a teacher. What about the other sorts of strictness
1:13:29
The difference between a teacher who really brings the best out of you because you are so respectful
1:13:36
What does firm but fair even mean? So think about the strictest teacher you had, the strictest
1:13:42
and then tell me whether you look back positively or negatively on their role, on their appearance in your life
1:13:52
0345 6060 973 is the number you need. I've just remembered that it's Thursday
1:13:57
I was thinking to myself, oh, we'll do that one at 12, but we won't, because it's Thursday, which means we'll be doing Mystery Hour at 12
1:14:03
What a time to be alive. James O'Brien on LBC. It's 11.33
1:14:09
You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I nearly came back from the break then with the words
1:14:14
I got hit by a nun once, but then I thought that might need a little bit of context
1:14:19
I did get hit by a nun once. I was only six as well. That's pretty young
1:14:24
There was a ruler, a wooden ruler on the hand. and she gave you a fruit polo
1:14:29
I mean I was the only boy in the class when I was six I went to a convent school
1:14:33
see there are bits of my story you haven't heard yet despite the fact that there are bits of it you've heard several million times
1:14:38
I went to a convent school because I started school a year early because I was very precocious
1:14:44
it was nothing to do with the fact that mum wanted me out of the house I was very precocious
1:14:48
so I started school a year early which meant by the time I got to the end of the kindergarten I was still too young to go to my next school
1:14:54
so I did a term in what was called Junior One at a convent school and I was the only boy in the class And one morning break I decided to go home which meant I tried to squeeze through the gates of the school in order to just pop through
1:15:09
And then it was about a five minute walk home in the middle of Kidderminster
1:15:13
And I got caught, obviously, because it was break time. And I refused to get down off the gate, I seem to remember. I can't remember my motivation
1:15:20
but it meant that I got sent to sister I don't even want to say her name
1:15:25
bless her and she was so reluctant I don't think I've ever been hit by anyone
1:15:29
who was so reluctant to do it and just a quick hit on my hand
1:15:33
with a wooden ruler and then she gave me a fruit polo afterwards so she wasn't cruel
1:15:38
or particularly evil I don't think I remember her very fondly but I did once get hit by a nun
1:15:44
that's the end of today's anecdote and the conversation that we're having
1:15:47
is about the difference between good strict and bad strict because that was just a pointless exercise
1:15:52
apart from the fruit polo. It didn't particularly hurt. And, I mean, I don't think I was ever going to try
1:15:56
to squeeze my head through the school gates again. It would have been more of a deterrent
1:15:59
if I'd got my big old bond stuck, to be honest with you. But what is the difference between good strict and bad strict
1:16:06
Joe's an Ennis Gillen. Joe, what do you reckon? Hello. It's all about engagement
1:16:11
If someone is being strict because they've got the power to tell you what to do..
1:16:17
By the power of Grayskull. Yes, I was the, you know, the really annoying people in class that would get great results and question when things were unreasonable
1:16:30
So there was one occasion I was made to stand up in assembly, which was the humiliation ritual
1:16:38
Yeah. If you were caught talking. And then I got sent to Mr. Etherington's office
1:16:43
he was great because he you knew what he was doing why he was doing it
1:16:49
he was just like don't do it again and I never did but if you had a
1:16:54
we had a PE teacher that because I didn't like sports at that time
1:16:59
for her she hated me but when I I became a prison officer Blimey
1:17:07
I fully understood what good good strict and bad strict is and it's all about engagement
1:17:14
And not being personal. So if you're going to, I mean, most obviously
1:17:18
so firm but fair is a phrase that's appearing a lot. And obviously, if you're going to be treated differently
1:17:24
from someone else because the teacher likes you or doesn't like you, then the whole project is doomed
1:17:28
You don't engage with them anymore. No, of course you don't. It's all about self-control
1:17:33
Like, what I was thinking about with porridge, you've got Mr. Barraclough and Mr. Mackay
1:17:39
Yeah. so Mr Mackay was permanently agitated by the presence of all the prisoners
1:17:44
couldn't stand any of them but he had the power to tell them
1:17:48
to get behind the door or do whatever Mr Barrowclough was the big softie
1:17:53
that was going round you know oh I understand well I was kind of between the two
1:17:58
so they knew that I had the responsibility to keep order but they also knew
1:18:07
that they could talk to me And if I was having a go at someone, even as a parent, you know, telling my kids off
1:18:15
I would explain to them exactly why they needed to do what I was asking them to do
1:18:22
What was the key difference between you and the officers who didn't have that kind of..
1:18:27
Oh, it was terrible. In the end, I had to come out of the prison service because I couldn't work around them
1:18:33
But what was the difference in your attitude now? You don't have to answer straight away, but just think about it
1:18:40
What made you different from them? Because I see people as individuals
1:18:48
and it's an exchange of, could be an exchange of, like you said, a glance
1:18:54
If they saw my face a certain way, it was like, oh, hang on. Do you like people
1:18:59
I like people, and I like engaging with people, and I think that people that are overly strict or even..
1:19:06
They don't like people. They don't like people. They're insecure in themselves
1:19:11
I went through a phase of when the kids were a certain age
1:19:16
and it seemed to me that everybody who had invested some redundancy money
1:19:20
in buying a little business to do children's parties, I went through a little phase, Joe
1:19:26
where every bloke I encountered in this scenario seemed to hate children. And I used to talk to my wife about it
1:19:32
I said, do you think he started off hating children? or do you think he hates children
1:19:36
because he's now met so many children that he's really ruining the day
1:19:40
that he spent his redundancy money on a bouncy castle or something like that
1:19:44
and I don't know, I don't know I mean maybe they just did the sums and that looked like the most profitable way of
1:19:49
or a little franchise for some sort of party performance and they hated children
1:19:55
I read, when I read about teachers that, you know, are sending children out of class for this, that
1:20:00
I just think they hate children or they don't like children And if you're a prison officer, I mean, not liking criminals is one defence of their position, but they wouldn't like people
1:20:11
But that's not what you're there for. No, of course it's not. You're not there to go, you know, every morning, good morning, you did this, that's why you're here
1:20:19
It's, right, one day I separated a fight between a murderer and a rapist, just shouting at them. Right
1:20:30
Because they came out of their cells, and one was threatening to kill the other one
1:20:36
and I just shouted as assertively as I could, while all the male officers behind me were, like, trying to get their batons out
1:20:46
I just said, you get back in your cell, and you go to the gym now, and they did
1:20:51
And it's all about, if you're doing it just for the sake of throwing your weight or your power
1:20:56
or whatever it is that you need to push out. Would that have worked on day one
1:21:02
or did you need to have built up some sort of legacy with those people
1:21:06
in order to be respected in the way that you were? On day one, it was the weirdest thing
1:21:13
It was like, oh, God, I'm in a prison. Yeah, well, I mean, you did apply for the job, Jo
1:21:16
It's not like you woke up in Oz, is it? No, I wasn't locked
1:21:21
Although I did have to sleep in a cell once. I agree. But, I mean, it's not so..
1:21:26
I mean, I'm fascinated by supply teachers and what they can turn up
1:21:30
It's very similar to that. If you're a supply teacher, you've got to be able to engage a group of anybody
1:21:40
And that's what I was able to do when I was in the prison as well
1:21:45
Yeah. I mean, that's why you started with the word engagement. And you can be strict and people can really rue what you've done
1:21:53
They can be like, I can't believe you. But if it is fundamentally fair and you feel seen as a human being
1:22:00
then you are more likely to do the thing that you're being told to do
1:22:04
than if you're not, especially if you're a bit bolshie or a bit naughty
1:22:09
Cooperative arrangements. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a relationship. Because I used to run, what was really fascinating
1:22:16
I used to run the visits on a Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday
1:22:20
if I was on duty I would always be the one coordinating searching all the visitors coming in so if you imagine you got a coach load of 30 people that have come over to the Isle of Wight from London on a hot day to see their loved ones
1:22:36
there's children, women, men, all sorts, and they would all have to be searched, including babies
1:22:45
Oh, nappies and everything, yeah, of course, of course, of course. And, you know, that is an incredibly potentially stressful situation
1:22:52
and I whenever I coordinated it sometimes I'd just give an announcement
1:22:58
and say look guys the lockers are over there, put your personal belongings
1:23:02
in there, secure up here, come through the metal detector, we will
1:23:06
get you in there as soon as we can if we all work together and it worked really
1:23:10
well. I can see that. I mean I love the... go on. And then one
1:23:14
weekend I did the opposite weekend shift, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah
1:23:18
I did some overtime. I was working with a different team and they were the more
1:23:27
yeah, because I said so. And they were, you could tell that they were actually nervous
1:23:31
and didn't like the people that were... And it took twice as long
1:23:36
Well, I just, I just, in the end, I stepped in, I said, look, cry not loud
1:23:39
can you just stop being so obnoxious? And I took over and it's just having that engagement
1:23:46
Yeah, and seeing a human being, that word there, so you went with engagement
1:23:51
I'm going to up the ante on that and go with relationships. So a teacher who is chucking you out of the class
1:23:55
because you're wearing odd socks, or a teacher, that's not a relationship. That's an automaton almost
1:24:01
There's something really unhuman about that, dehumanised. You can be really strict
1:24:07
but in a relationship with the person that you're in charge of
1:24:10
Or you can be really strict and not in a relationship with that person
1:24:14
in which case you're going to chuck people out of class for not having their tie done up
1:24:19
I love that. Thank you. God, who'd have thought that a prison officer would be the person with the most useful perspective so far
1:24:26
Jeanette is in Gravesend. Jeanette, what would you like to say? Good morning. I'd like to say that good discipline
1:24:34
is when it's done for the good of the child and bad discipline is when it's done
1:24:39
for the gratification of the person. Well, we're going to need more than that because they used to say
1:24:43
spare the rod, spoil the child. So that's the logic of beating them sometimes
1:24:48
I know. But, as I say, If it's good discipline and you explain, it's no good just saying to a child and anybody, you're being punished and that's the end of it
1:25:02
I used to run a nursery for 15 years and the children were varied in their behaviour, their type, obviously
1:25:11
and I found that the parents who were quick to slap and shout
1:25:19
were out of control themselves. They had no control of the discipline
1:25:26
Instead of, in the first instance, saying to that child, you have to hold the side of the pram
1:25:32
and the reasons are you could go under that car, etc., etc
1:25:36
They let go of the side of the pram. The mother grabs the cart by the back of the coat
1:25:41
slaps him round the head or whatever, and what has the child learnt from that
1:25:46
Absolutely nothing. Well, no, he's learned that it really hurts when he gets slapped around the head, but nothing else
1:25:51
But he hasn't learnt the reason why he needs to be where mother..
1:25:56
But you're doing it as well, aren't you? This is a relationship. It's not a kind of insert coin scenario
1:26:03
You do something, you do X, Y happens. This is a relationship where you're explaining things
1:26:07
and you're respecting, in a way, even a toddler. That's right. And that comes into it
1:26:13
But that's where it's all... When the discipline is being metered through anger
1:26:18
lack of control, lack of good parenting, I mean, I can't tell you..
1:26:23
And one thing I can tell you is those children that were looked after by their grandparents
1:26:29
you never had a problem. Well, they had more experience. It might not necessarily be a generational thing
1:26:36
You're talking about the because I said so school of adulting, aren't you, in a way
1:26:41
whether you're a teacher or a parent. The child wants to know why it's doing something. What would you do, and perhaps this scenario never arose
1:26:48
but what would you do if you'd taken that approach with a child and you'd explained respectfully and painstakingly
1:26:53
why they couldn't do a certain thing and why they shouldn't do a certain thing, and then they did it anyway
1:26:57
You'd do it again and again and again. Oh. Because what I would do, I mean, I'll give you one particular example
1:27:04
Yes. children used to tip back on their chairs. Yes. Some people do it, just did it and didn't realise it was dangerous or anything like that
1:27:14
So I constantly, you know, each term and everything, I always went through the scenario of what could happen under those circumstances
1:27:22
And then you'd have little Johnny who did it because you had just told him not to
1:27:26
So he got moved to the side of the room and he sat on a chair
1:27:30
and somebody sat with him and went through it all over again. Because he could fall over backwards and bang his head
1:27:36
to a catastrophic degree. Absolutely. And then they would have to say that
1:27:43
time out almost, like, type of thing. And then you'd go back, you'd say
1:27:47
did it again, you did it again. They didn't do it for very long. They didn't want to be sitting at the side of the room
1:27:53
They didn't tip their chair. And that's not a cruel or unusual punishment, is it
1:27:57
It's just a little bit of segregation. It's just reinforcement over and over and over again
1:28:01
Hey, I bet you were good at this. Do you miss it? Um, yes, in a way
1:28:05
But I stopped in the end because of the children. Oh, really
1:28:10
Honestly. Well, it didn't work that well then, did it, Jeanette? No
1:28:15
They were okay when they were with me. Right. But, you know, if you've got a child for two or three hours a day
1:28:22
you can't change his whole life if it's not happening at home. No, not even the Jesuits could have done that
1:28:27
Jeanette, thank you. I hear you, actually. and that is probably where my weird little fondness for discipline comes from
1:28:36
But it's a fondness, I discovered this hour, of the kind of things that Jeanette's talking about
1:28:41
not the kind of things that I'm reading about in the newspaper where children are being treated like, well, worse than animals, really
1:28:48
If you laugh, you get... I mean, there's no logic. If there's a logic to a punishment
1:28:53
if there's a natural justice to a punishment, it's a very different story from when there doesn't seem to be any at all it's 11 48 james o'brien on
1:29:02
lbc it's 11 51 and you are listening to james o'brien on lbc where um the conversation continues
1:29:10
about strictness so i did have something quite funny to to play to you do you remember old richard
1:29:16
tice getting all air rated about being told that he should have declared an interest before
1:29:20
contributing to a debate about Israel and him insisting in very irate fashion
1:29:26
that it was all some sort of establishment stitch up. And there's quite a nice little postscript to that
1:29:31
which I will try to bring to your attention before home time today
1:29:35
Before that, though, I just touched on something there, Jeanette, at the end
1:29:39
And I don't think she sounded like that. I think it's possible to be quite frightened of children
1:29:46
Even if you're a teacher. I don't know if it's got worse or better over the years
1:29:50
And so, is it fair to say that you don't like them
1:29:55
You've got 30 people in front of you, 40 people in front of you. If they move as one..
1:30:00
you know, it'd be like having a group of masked fascists turn up at the end of your road
1:30:05
claiming that they're there to protect you. It could be quite intimidating. I don't know how much of a part of the process that is
1:30:12
but we're just trying to pinpoint the difference between good strict and bad strict. Jess is in Salisbury. Jess, what would you like to say
1:30:17
Hi, well, yeah, actually, you just started touching on something really interesting there
1:30:22
because I am a primary school teacher and currently have a class of 35
1:30:28
So it is pretty large. It is a problem across many schools at the moment
1:30:32
but that's a whole different thing. Yes, it is. It is an it, isn't it? Yes. But a lot of my teaching practice has actually been modelled on
1:30:39
I was reflecting on this when you asked the question, on my own past teachers
1:30:44
And there's one teacher in particular that I reflect on with my children
1:30:50
to show them how I do things differently and do go by that firm but fair
1:30:57
and hers was, it's horrible, but I don't think she's alive anymore, so it's okay
1:31:03
So it was doing column subtraction on the blackboard at the front
1:31:09
and I panicked and forgot how to do the exchanging and her form of dealing with it was by shouting and screaming
1:31:17
at you in front of the whole class. That's traumatising, isn't it? Yes, and then telling, then saying
1:31:23
well, if you don't know how to do it, then the whole class are going to do this for the rest of the week
1:31:27
Yeah, and then I remember looking at my class and them all just looking at me like, oh, God
1:31:32
Flipping actress. So a lot of that is, so that one event has really helped me
1:31:39
how I approach my teaching in my class now. And a lot of it goes by also teachers that you mentioned earlier
1:31:47
about raising an eyebrow and that's it, that's all they need to do. Well, what is the child, I don't know if frightened is the right word
1:31:54
because you would be frightened of a repeat of how that teacher treated you
1:31:58
but when you're trying to get a child to stop chatting or stop messing about
1:32:02
and you raise the eyebrow, what are they frightened of? Because I think back in the day I'd have started wanging on about consequences
1:32:09
This is when I would be able to mount a relatively coherent defense of corporal punishment
1:32:13
or grown men hitting 10-year-olds, as I prefer to call it these days
1:32:18
What's the consequence that will follow if your raised eyebrow is not responded to correctly
1:32:24
or does it even matter? Yeah, no, I think it is very much the children and your class
1:32:29
understanding your expectations and that's something that takes a little while for the children to understand
1:32:35
But when they start to realise that you are firm but fair
1:32:40
you don't penalise them for a collective, for one child, because then you have the rest of the children who are always behaving well
1:32:48
start to resent that and then they also start to misbehave. you don't penalize them if they don't know how to do the work what i do get um put consequences in
1:33:01
for and i talk to them about this all the time because our big problem at the moment is we have
1:33:05
a lot of passive learning um and we have a lot of reluctance from children to do their learning
1:33:11
yes um so my my line is you give it a go it doesn't matter you listen to my teaching this
1:33:19
is what I'm here for and then I can tell and the TAs can tell if you are participating in lesson
1:33:26
and you're really trying we will be there to support you but if you check out is what we say
1:33:31
a lot and don't listen and engage in the learning and choose to misbehave or just not listen and
1:33:38
then have a blank sheet of paper at the end of your work that's when you give your time back to
1:33:44
me at break and lunchtime and they very quickly learn that that is the way it's going to happen
1:33:49
i'm not going to sit there with you and help you if you've decided yourself to not check in
1:33:54
i am there to teach you and support you if you're willing to try and i'm not going to
1:34:00
that would work on me that would work on me i'm just imagining being 10 again and i think that
1:34:04
would work on me and also i would create something else in that i think i would feel
1:34:08
a desire not to let you down yes and that's i think again of course a relationship is so important
1:34:16
with the children but i've worked in schools where we've had really really traumatized children
1:34:23
were expressing really worrying behavior and my my key message to the rest of my children when this
1:34:30
was happening was that those children would see that i would we would deal with that child in the
1:34:36
right way whatever the behavior policy was and not just sweep it under the rug because those
1:34:42
children and the way they're expressing their behavior is also traumatizing the children
1:34:46
watching it so it's not fair on them and again it creates a whole community of anxiety in your
1:34:53
classroom so it's very much about having your own little bubble of that community community that
1:34:59
care about each other and and in a sentence i just because of the time no other reason i could
1:35:04
listen to you all day how much of this is conscious how much of this has happened organically and how
1:35:09
much of it is a consequence of time that you've put into thinking about things and working things
1:35:13
out um i think don't say 52 48 that's not allowed on this program no i think it really is just about
1:35:22
going from i i was very lucky going from being a ta to then hlta to teacher so i saw so many teachers
1:35:29
and what worked and what didn't work. But I think what's really important is reflecting back on my time
1:35:35
and I hated it if a whole class was told off for something that you didn't do
1:35:41
Yeah, no, I can see that. That's when you get the most upset parents as well
1:35:45
Of course it is. And it's brilliant. Thank you. I'm not even going to spoil this conversation by asking why you're not at school now
1:35:51
I'm absolutely certain you've got a very good reason. Thank you, Jess. That was lovely
1:35:55
Oh, three, four. Actually, we're out of time on this. Just to squeeze in Wayne at the end. James, only you can turn a subject about naughty children into the far right
1:36:03
No, mate, seriously, if children were loved enough, if all children were loved enough, Wayne
1:36:08
there'd be no far right. And just glancing at your message history
1:36:12
and I say this with love, including you, if all children were loved enough, then there would be no far right
1:36:19
Anyway, on a completely different subject, here's Richard Tice having a bit of a tantrum
1:36:24
It just did the last month. It's an absolute disgrace. OK, I can sense your fury
1:36:33
Fury? I'm absolutely raging angry. It's a disgrace. A basic counterpoint might have been, should it have been a more sensible idea to declare it in the first place
1:36:42
No, because it was a debate about UK democracy. No declaration was required. This is an establishment sit-up
1:36:49
full on and your viewers and your listeners need to understand the extent of which the
1:36:55
establishment is trying literally to politically kill us and kill me and kill nigel what a wombat
1:37:03
anyway that's the 3rd of august this is the 14th of september i would like to apologize to this
1:37:08
house for failing to declare an interest when participating in a westminster hall debate
1:37:13
debate on the 22nd of June 2026 on the topic of pro-Israel influence on UK politics and
1:37:21
democracy When speaking in the debate I failed to declare the relevant interest which was that I went on a visit to Israel between the 26th and the 30th of September 2025 funded by Reform Friends of Israel And whilst the trip is properly recorded in my register
1:37:39
of interest, I should have declared it during the speech that Madam Deputy Speaker is a breach of
1:37:43
the rules and I apologise to this good house. So was it a breach of the rules that you have to
1:37:47
apologise for or was it an attempt to metaphorically kill you, Richard, or politically kill you
1:37:53
because if it was an attempt to politically kill you, then doesn't that constitute a form of parliamentarian Harry Kiry
1:38:01
Or, I don't know, but my God, it doesn't even matter about the bigotry and the prejudices
1:38:07
They're just all so stupid. And yet, there are plenty of people, Wayne included
1:38:13
who think they'd be capable of running a country. It's 12 noon. James O'Brien on LBC
1:38:19
Four minutes after 12, it's Thursday. It's James O'Brien. Me. It's Mystery Hour, your weekly opportunity to achieve the sort of satisfaction not ordinarily available anywhere else on your radio
1:38:30
If you're not familiar with this feature, then I think you're in for a surprise, certainly
1:38:36
Whether it's a positive surprise or a negative surprise is probably debatable, although it remains an incredibly popular part of the programme
1:38:44
Speaking of popularity, a new poll about the popularity or otherwise of Donald Trump in this country, in this septan aisle, has just dropped
1:38:51
and even I'm surprised by the results. I may remember to share those with you, I may not
1:38:58
because we have more important things to do. We have to collate some questions, some riddles, some mysteries
1:39:04
some conundrums to which other people will then ring in and provide the answers
1:39:09
because that is how mystery hour works. You ring in with a question, a who, a why, why do we do this
1:39:14
who, why, what, where, when, whither, wherefore, whatever it may be. and the only real rule for inclusion
1:39:21
is that you're not mind-numbingly dull the question isn't one that we've answered
1:39:24
in the last 10 minutes and it's probably best if it's not
1:39:28
really, really, really motoring related although to be honest with you the guardrails on that one
1:39:33
have become rather rusty of late and then having asked your question
1:39:38
to which it is, you know it's a given that there must be an answer to it
1:39:42
there must be an answer to this question you can't ask a question that is
1:39:47
famously unanswerable, but you just don't know what the answer is yourself
1:39:52
And then someone else rings in with the answer. And there's only one rule on that side
1:39:55
of the net. And that rule is you obviously can't look anything
1:39:59
up, because otherwise I could just sit here googling everything, and it would be a very strange way
1:40:03
for us to spend an hour together. So, the answer that you provide has to be as a consequence
1:40:07
of personal knowledge. Now, it can be something that you've read previously, or
1:40:11
even something that you've looked up previously. I think I've done a couple over the years
1:40:15
because one of my daughters had asked me a question and I'd looked it up a couple of years ago
1:40:20
and then you rang in with the same question and I was therefore able to answer it
1:40:24
But you're not allowed to look it up as a consequence of having heard the question
1:40:28
as in like now, today. That's pretty much it. The number you need
1:40:33
And remember, you have your best chance of getting through if you use judicious use of redial
1:40:39
You will get through at the moment, 0345 6060973. and if you provide my favourite contribution of the week
1:40:48
either question, answer or steward's inquiry, because if you're unhappy with the way that things have unfolded
1:40:53
you're more than welcome to challenge the results, you will win a Mystery Hour game
1:40:59
And there are two types of Mystery Hour game. In fact, I'm going to do something I don't think I've ever done before
1:41:03
on the programme before and I'm going to wish Happy Birthday to a ferret at some point
1:41:07
in the next half an hour. More on that later. But the Mystery Hour game comes either in original format
1:41:13
board game or in the travel format which is in a tin and you can find out more about that and
1:41:19
indeed buy your own if you're unlucky enough not to win one today at mysteryhour.co.uk the full
1:41:24
terms and conditions for the competition are at lbc.co.uk and that i think concludes the housework
1:41:33
um if you've never heard it before and you'd like to get involved but you're a little bit shy just
1:41:38
wait until you've heard a couple of questions or a couple of answers and
1:41:42
then you'll get an idea of roughly where the parameters are. But to be honest with you
1:41:46
almost anything goes. Almost anything goes. Let's start on Dartmoor. Steve is there
1:41:52
Steve, question or answer? It's a question, James. It's Dartmoor, not Dartmoor. Do you know
1:41:58
because it says on my screen, Dartmoor, Scotland. And I'm not saying that we need to
1:42:04
introduce more discipline into the production office as a consequence of the conversation we were
1:42:08
having in the last hour, but I think I might get Jess in to do a special sort of thing. So it's
1:42:12
Gartmore. Gartmore, yeah. Gartmore being at pretty much the opposite end of the United Kingdom from where you are
1:42:18
Absolutely. Alright. Question or answer, Steve? It's a question. And I've been digging
1:42:24
out all my shirts recently because I've recently qualified as a celebrant. Oh, lovely
1:42:30
Congratulations. Thank you very much. One of my old producers is a
1:42:34
celebrant, you know. Really? That's a career. I'm glad you responded like that
1:42:38
Because I think that's quite an interesting career path to have gone from being the senior producer
1:42:41
of the James O'Brien programme to being a humanist celebrant. Well, not even a humanist
1:42:46
She does all sorts. Yeah, I'm not a humanist. I don't think she is either
1:42:50
I don't know why I said that. She does a whole shebang. And she's brilliant at it. Got loads and loads of plaudits and praise
1:42:55
Anyway, carry on. Excellent. So we did a tour of Crematorium the other day
1:42:59
Absolutely fascinating behind the scenes. And the people that work in it love the job
1:43:04
Anyway, that's not the question. That's interesting. So I was digging out all my shirts, and I'm trying them on
1:43:11
Some of them don't fit, because obviously I've put on a bit of weight over the years. And what I noticed was, when I was buttoning up the shirts
1:43:18
and you might know this because of your experience in retail. Thank you. They all come down vertically, except the bottom one, which is horizontal
1:43:27
Yeah. And why is that? I've got a crack team of producers on the show today, but they're all relatively new
1:43:33
apart from Eleanor who's far too busy to get involved in the to-ing
1:43:38
and fro-ing of mystery hour questions and answers she's working on strategy today Steve
1:43:41
she's working on strategy long term projects she's currently looking for a picture of a ferret
1:43:48
which may become clearer a little later in the programme I think we've done this one relatively recently
1:43:53
and you're absolutely right I do draw upon my years in menswear to tell you
1:43:57
think about when you tuck a shirt in and the stress that is
1:44:02
placed on the buttonhole and the only buttonhole upon which stress is placed
1:44:06
is the bottom buttonhole so if it were vertical then it would be more likely to split
1:44:13
because you're pushing it down all the time in fact it wouldn't really be the buttonhole that split
1:44:17
it would be the button that popped off probably as a consequence of the thread on the button
1:44:23
being easier to break than the thread on the buttonhole whereas all the other buttons
1:44:28
and you mentioned this yourself unintentionally by alluding very discreetly to your enhanced girth
1:44:36
all of the other buttons are under horizontal pressure. Right, OK. Potentially
1:44:42
That makes sense. Qualifications? Four years in menswear? I thought so. Three, four, five, possibly
1:44:49
I'd still be there now if it wasn't for John Major. Steve, thank you very much. I will accept the round of applause with apologies for repetition but as I say we got a crack team of novices or relative novices on the programme today And good luck with it Have you done your first gig yet Do we call them gigs Do we call them gigs
1:45:05
Well, I call them gigs, but I'm not sure the grieving families would call them gigs
1:45:10
No, you're quite right. I was thinking more of a wedding. Are you only going to be doing the deaths
1:45:14
No, I'm going to be doing both. Well, we can call a wedding a gig, I think, can't we? When's your first one? Have you got anything in the diary yet
1:45:19
Or are you about to get out there? No, I've got meetings with funeral directors
1:45:23
so that we can get together and hopefully they'll take me on. Good luck, Steve
1:45:27
Thank you very much. I'm sure you'll be brilliant at it. 11 minutes after 12 is the time. You've got a fantastic array of anecdotes
1:45:33
that you can share from the pulpit or the lectern as a consequence of tuning into this programme all the time
1:45:38
including why is the button almost shut? Maybe don't open with that, especially at a funeral
1:45:43
Marco's in Fulham. Marco, question or answer? Question, please. Carry on. So, you know, in Fulham and in London in general
1:45:50
there are foxes in the streets more or less all the time. at night. And
1:45:54
this summer with the drought, you had multiple months, I think more than one month
1:45:59
certainly in July, where it didn't rain. So what do they drink in those
1:46:03
periods? Do they just all die or do they migrate? Well, I mean, we've had a drought, but
1:46:09
we haven't, I mean, we've had a hosepipe ban, Marco. We haven't exactly
1:46:13
had a full-on drought, have we, as such? I mean, if you
1:46:17
left a bowl of water, the rivers haven't run dry, the the streams and what have you haven't run dry
1:46:23
So they might eat fruit, which can take... I don't know why I'm answering this
1:46:27
I've got absolutely no qualifications whatsoever. But I've got a lot of foxes and I've got a garden
1:46:32
And I don't really like having the foxes in the garden because they upset my dog. But they, you know, they would be doing..
1:46:38
They'd be drinking out of rivers. They'd be drinking out of dog bowls
1:46:42
They'd be drinking out of bird baths. And they would be eating fruit that's high in water levels
1:46:49
Ponds! Garden ponds! Next door's got a pond. Foxes are always having a slurp
1:46:54
Right. But, I mean, the rivers, I would take out the Thames because they would die from drinking the Thames water
1:46:59
Yeah, but not the river. They wouldn't necessarily. They're foxes. Have you seen what they eat? Yeah
1:47:05
So that is the answer. I mean, there might be a point at which it becomes problematic
1:47:10
but I don't think we reached the point this summer. I just need to tell people... Excuse me a moment, Marco
1:47:14
The idea isn't that I answer all the questions. Sometimes I'm in a mood that makes me want to answer all the questions
1:47:19
which is probably the kind of mood that a teacher like Jess would be best qualified to politely talk me out of
1:47:25
And sometimes the questions are just ones that I know the answer to. So if it's going to be menswear, then I'm going to have a go
1:47:31
On this one, probably I shouldn't have waded in quite so confidently, but I happen to know that I'm right
1:47:37
And therefore, I'm going to take another round of applause. Unless, Marco, you are unsatisfied with the answer
1:47:44
And high water level fruits, basically. Say again? It's Thames water and fruits with high levels of water
1:47:52
Not just Thames water. Near me, it would be the River Brent. I think garden ponds are going to be a much bigger park
1:47:58
They cover a lot of ground, Foxes. They'll know where the ponds are. All right
1:48:02
I'll take that. Thank you very much. Another round of applause for me, please. It's coming up to quarter past 12
1:48:09
You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. So two questions down, two answers in
1:48:14
It'd be nice if someone else got involved. Otherwise, we're running a very real risk of me awarding myself a Mystery Hour game
1:48:19
And nobody wants that. 0-3-4-5-6-0-6-0-9-7-3. The shirt buttons and the foxes. I was in Worcestershire at the weekend
1:48:30
I'll be there again this weekend because I'm trying to see as much of mum as possible at the moment
1:48:34
for reasons that I touched on yesterday. And loads of foxes. I didn't see that many foxes growing up in the countryside because they've all moved to the city
1:48:45
and I almost thought to myself, well, I did think to myself, but I wouldn't have remembered if it wasn't for Marco
1:48:50
I thought, is that a mystery hour question? Are we now seeing foxes more in the countryside
1:48:57
because of the hunting ban? And I saw at least three on one journey
1:49:02
from Redditch to Kidder Minister via Chattersley Corbett, if you're interested in such things
1:49:06
And I know there used to be a hunt in Chattersley Corbett. I don't know whether they sort of chase after other things now
1:49:13
but I just found myself wondering, is there something going on there? Because I never ever, I grew up on farm
1:49:19
And we never saw foxes. We didn't have chickens. It was an arable farm that I grew up on
1:49:25
but we didn't farm it. I don't know. I ever saw foxes when I was a kid
1:49:31
On a farm in the middle of the countryside. I live in Brentford, see at least five a night
1:49:36
Dog goes mad. 12.15 is the time. Anyway, that's not a question for Mystery Hour
1:49:40
and I've already answered Marco, so I need to hear yours on the usual number. James O'Brien on LBC
1:49:46
I've come up with a title for my autobiography. I'm going to call it
1:49:49
Every Song I've Ever Loved Ends Up in an Advert. That's a sign of age, isn't it
1:49:55
Every song I've ever loved ends up in an advert. Mr. Hour is upon us
1:49:59
Your weekly opportunity to achieve the sort of satisfaction not available anywhere else on your radio
1:50:03
I currently have no questions on the board because it turns out I'm unexpectedly in one of those moods
1:50:07
where I've tried to answer everything myself. Let me see what's coming up next. I don't think I'm going to have any problems avoiding attempts to answer these ones
1:50:16
Okay. A couple of stewards' inquiries in already. Nails Cross, apparently when we got the question about the sharp button a few weeks ago
1:50:23
it was answered by a caller. Therefore, my qualifications are not that I spent several years in menswear
1:50:29
while trying and failing to get into journalism, but my qualifications should have been that a caller told me
1:50:35
And then when they did, it made such perfect and ineluctable sense that I presumed I had known all along
1:50:40
So my apologies for that, and my thanks to Neil for steering me back onto the straight and narrow
1:50:47
You're absolutely right. Qualifications, someone else told me a few weeks ago. Still a little bit recent for a repetition, that one
1:50:54
So let's move quickly on. 12.18 is the time. Oh, and before we do that, I'm going to wish a ferret a happy birthday
1:51:02
I've never done... So I saw this message from Mike. It said
1:51:05
Hi, James, it's my dearest Bridie's birthday today. I bought the lucky lady your Mystery Hour travel game
1:51:11
It comes in a tin, you know. And then he did a joke. He said, the Mystery Hour for today is
1:51:15
who is that young man staring out from the front of the tin? That's from Mike in Watford
1:51:20
And the joke is that it's me, looking considerably younger than I do now
1:51:24
But I've had some new photos done recently. I can't remember whether I told you
1:51:28
They should be appearing in the ether. They should be appearing in the wild sometime soon
1:51:32
So Mike sent that in, and I thought Bridie must be his wife. You would, wouldn't you? Or his partner, Bridie
1:51:38
and I wouldn't normally bother, but if you send me an attachment
1:51:43
I can actually click on it. And I don't know why, I thought
1:51:47
well, there's an attachment there. I wonder why he sent an attachment. He just wants me to say happy birthday to his wife
1:51:51
So I clicked on it, and Bridey is actually a ferret. So I am now, for the first time in the history of British radio
1:51:58
I am wishing happy birthday to a ferret in a Watford United beanie hat
1:52:04
If you've just tuned in, this is normally a show where we discuss the most highfalutin current affairs issues of the moment
1:52:10
For example, the street of Hormuz and the imminent threat to humanity
1:52:14
being posed by artificial intelligence. But today, I'm wishing happy birthday to a ferret in a Watford United hat
1:52:24
Happy birthday Bridie Richard is in Pevensey in Sussex Richard question or answer Good morning James Good morning Richard When you use your debit card or credit card
1:52:35
rather than your Oyster card when you go on the Underground or whatever, when the ticket inspector comes round
1:52:41
how do they know where you've come from or what you're doing or if you've paid
1:52:45
if you're using a debit card? I quite like that question. We should be able to work it out, shouldn't we
1:52:51
Well, does the debit card store any information on it? No, but the point where you clicked it is storing the information
1:52:59
and the ticket inspector has got access to that. Ah. Do you think
1:53:04
Possibly. I mean, the other thing that gets me a bit these days is how the gate in the supermarket knows to open
1:53:11
Because in Lidl, I have to show it the barcode on my receipt, right
1:53:16
Yeah. So that's easy. That's obvious. Yeah. I think Morrison's used photo recognition
1:53:21
They do not. I think so. Did you just make that because it was literally... Well, this is just uncanny because I was going to Morrison's next
1:53:29
I know you go to Morrison's. That's why I said Morrison's. No, I think it's facial recognition
1:53:34
I think they've got a notice up somewhere in the store that says that once the data is used, it's deleted
1:53:39
Yeah, but so... Because you see your face at the till, don't you, when you're doing the self-service
1:53:43
Yeah, I think that's part of it. And so they... Then you get to the gate and it opens because it recognises you
1:53:50
You can see that you've paid. Yeah. Well, that's incredible. Well, it's not that then
1:53:55
I was thinking we might have the same answer for your question about the trains. It's not facial recognition
1:53:59
because they're not checking your face, they're checking your ticket. There must be a system
1:54:03
Do you ever watch those programmes? I think they're on Channel 5 when they bust Fair Dodgers
1:54:08
Yes, the Air Fry Channel, we call it. I like those shows
1:54:12
I really do. And I hate Fair Dodgers, actually. I don't know. I think I've developed a more passionate dislike of them
1:54:18
since I've started watching these programmes. And they know everything that's been done by a card
1:54:22
So when they present, when they're collaring a perp, they say, well, you've been using this card for the journey
1:54:28
from, for example, Vauxhall to Waterloo for the last three and a half years
1:54:32
and we know that you get on at Scion. So they must know with a card
1:54:36
So that's what they're checking. They're checking the card against their record of cards
1:54:40
and concluding that that card is on my record of cards. That makes sense
1:54:45
I'm not taking a round of applause, though, am I? Because I've said I'm not going to take any more. Someone else can, I say, it's an open goal
1:54:51
Someone else can ring in and get that. but I'm going to check that. You see, Richard, that's why I ask what your qualifications are
1:54:58
Because otherwise someone's going to ring in and just repeat what we've just worked out together
1:55:04
Qualifications ticket inspector. That's what we need. We'll take no less, you and me
1:55:09
Totally good. Because we're strict like that. Thank you, Richard. Lovely stuff. 22 minutes. I've actually wondered that myself, Richard
1:55:15
I have wondered that myself. And I'm not convinced that Morrison's is doing facial recognition on the exit gate, is it
1:55:22
I shall check later. Two phone lines free, but you've got to be quick
1:55:26
Go 345-6060973 is the number that you need. Dale is in the kingdom of Fife
1:55:32
Dale, question or answer? That's a question, James. Carry on. What defines a crisp
1:55:39
Go on. Like, in terms of, you get a knick-knack, but that's a corn snack
1:55:44
You get McCoy's, which is potato, but that's a crisp. Yeah. Is it just potato
1:55:51
Well, as a crisp just potato then. I'm wondering. Well, I mean, originally it was a potato crisp, wasn't it
1:55:57
Yeah, but then a packet of Doritos is a tortilla, but they're all sold in the crisp aisle
1:56:02
They are sold. So what is the question? What is technically what is a crisp
1:56:06
or what is the qualification to get into the crisp aisle in Lidl or Morrison's
1:56:12
Technically what is a crisp? That's the question. Technically what is it
1:56:16
Well, it's a potato crisp. I'm not just being silly here. No
1:56:20
No, one of us. No, I don't think either of us are. What's the most crispy, non..
1:56:25
So you've gone for a knick-knack. What about a Pringle? Potato but not..
1:56:30
No, that's not a crisp. Is it not? No, that's just a big debate. That's just why I'm..
1:56:34
What's a Pringle, then? It's not a crisp. Well, what is it
1:56:38
I don't know. Yeah, well, you do. It's a Pringle. You just say it's a Pringle, James. Yeah, yeah
1:56:42
Don't be stupid. So a deep-fried potato crisp is a crisp. Yeah
1:56:49
So a baked Walker's Crisp, a baked Walker's Crisp is not a crisp
1:56:53
It's a maize-based snack. Or a wheat-based snack. So there must be a definition of a crisp
1:57:01
Yeah, I don't know what that answer is, so that's why I'm falling in and I'm very nervous
1:57:06
Why are you being nervous? I'm going to put you at your ease now, Dale
1:57:10
People might want to press record on their tape recorders at the moment, because this is going to be a masterclass in putting people at their ease
1:57:15
What's your favourite crisp, Dale? A pickled onion disco. A pickled... They're quite hard to get hold of, aren't they, these days
1:57:24
I buy a bag every day. Do you really? You've got a special supplier. You've got a man
1:57:28
You've got a fellow. What about your pickled onion monster munch? Is that a close second? No
1:57:33
I'd probably go to take a prawn cocktail spiral. Wow. You are a man who enjoys his crisps
1:57:40
And you're also quite, you know, off-piste. You're not going down the well-trodden routes
1:57:45
What about a scampi fry? Is that a crisp? It's a scampi fry. this is the question
1:57:49
I love this. Right, you're on. Are you feeling marginally less nervous now
1:57:54
as a result of our crisp-based banter? Are you still? All right, well, I'll let you go
1:57:58
Seriously, go and have a packet of salt and vinegar. What was it again
1:58:02
Discos? Onion discos. Salt, salt, salt. There it is. Thank you, Dale
1:58:07
I love that question. I've got an idea for a podcast. I mentioned it to you last week
1:58:12
I don't think anyone else has done it, but I want to eat the new crisps
1:58:16
and the new snacks. So you know when you're in the shop and you see, oh, that's new
1:58:21
And sometimes they've taken a well-established brand. It began with the ice creams
1:58:25
They started turning our chocolate bars into ice creams, and it was one of the finest ideas ever had by humankind
1:58:31
And now they're doing it with everything. So you get Marmite nuts now
1:58:34
Did you know that? Sounds like a medical condition. But you can buy Marmite nuts or Marmite cashier
1:58:40
And I want to do a podcast where we try the new ones and just rate them together
1:58:45
And like four of us around the table, Or you could do it on Zoom
1:58:50
You could join in. I don't know. I've just got this idea that people want that kind of content
1:58:54
Snack-based content. Dale would be good at it as long as we could deal with his nerves
1:59:00
What is a crisp? To crisp or not to crisp? That is the question
1:59:04
Barry's in Greenwich. Barry, question or answer? A questionable observation. That's not really allowed
1:59:11
Have you cleared it with the Gestapo? they didn't like that I'm sitting in a car park
1:59:25
and I'm waiting for a phone call to come in for a job
1:59:29
and I'm just observing people who the car park's half empty but people still come in
1:59:36
and decide to park next to someone or in between someone and I'm thinking there's about
1:59:44
50 spaces empty, but they still decide to park in between summer
1:59:50
Yeah. And I just think, why do you do that? It's a strange one
1:59:57
Well, I don't drive a lot, although I think... I might be starting again soon
2:00:02
All right. And as a relatively inexperienced stroke nervous driver... Right. I think I find it easier to park near someone else
2:00:14
because I know I'm going to get it right. I'm going to get it straight and level and stuff like that
2:00:18
Yeah, but you could bash the doors and you say, oh, I'm sorry, didn't mean to do that
2:00:23
And I think, well, why don't you go over there? There's about six spaces empty. Yeah
2:00:29
I mean we are a herd animal We're a herd animal Barry you and me
2:00:35
We are We are birds of a feather That flock together So I think it's
2:00:43
Company and comfort Oh right Well next time I'll do it I'll say should we have a cup or two
2:00:49
Do you not think so I'll get someone better qualified than me
2:00:54
And I'm not allowed any more rounds of applause anyway but why do we park in an empty car park
2:00:59
Why do we park next to a car, one of the few cars that's there? Yeah
2:01:03
I mean, I get if you want to be nearer to the shops, which is probably 20 foot
2:01:10
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's a mind thing, isn't it? But do you not use another car to line up your car
2:01:16
Do you not do that? No, I use the white lines. Oh, yeah
2:01:21
A bit harder to see than another car. Well, we'll find out. there might be some psychological studies that have been
2:01:26
done into it, Barry. What's the job you're waiting for, if you don't mind me asking? You're not about to rob
2:01:30
a bank or something, are you? Because if you are, don't say anything on the radio. Oh, I won't
2:01:36
disclose that one. He is as well. There you go. 29 minutes after 12 is the time you're listening to
2:01:42
James O'Brien on LBC. That is not a motoring question. That is a psychology question
2:01:48
We don't do motoring questions. How many times do I have to tell you
2:01:51
and I am hearing that James May may have a snack-based YouTube channel
2:01:59
that I am currently unaware of. Does he do what I want to do, though? Does he do, like, ratings with other people
2:02:04
That would be annoying. Or I could just ask to be invited onto that. He rang in the other day. I'm sure he'd roll out the red carpet
2:02:10
for some snack-based banter on his YouTube channel, but does James May already have the thing that I want to have
2:02:16
We could call it Beat the Treat, or How Not to Be Hungry
2:02:20
as one of you suggested in a message that unfortunately I lost, so I can't give you credit for
2:02:24
I can, however, tell you that it is half past 12 and time for the headlines with Amelia Cox
2:02:29
James O'Brien on LBC. 12.32 is the time. This from Aid. James, that snack-tasting idea for a podcast is a good one
2:02:38
That's why there are already hundreds of people doing it on YouTube. Yeah, but they're not me, mate, are they
2:02:43
There's loads of long-form interview podcasts on YouTube, but there's only one full disclosure
2:02:47
There's only one full disclosure. I still think it's a runner but it's not really the kind of things
2:02:54
that management are looking for from me at the moment they're looking for slightly more cerebral
2:03:00
or news based ideas it is 12.33 we are in the middle of mystery
2:03:05
we want to know how they how they know you've paid for your fare
2:03:09
by checking your card or indeed your phone on the train what is the definition of a crisp
2:03:16
as in you know is a scampi fryer crisp And why do we park in car parks that are largely empty
2:03:24
next to one of the few cars that are there? Tim is in Lincoln
2:03:30
Tim, question or answer? Question, please. Carry on. What's making the noise in my stomach
2:03:38
When it rumbles. When it rumbles, yeah. Why is it doing it when it's only like..
2:03:44
How often do you listen to the programme? Every day. No, that sounded like you were fibbing a bit
2:03:52
You did quite a long ur. You're not going to get in any trouble. You don't have to listen to it
2:03:56
It's not compulsory. So how long have you been listening for, roughly
2:04:01
I'd say probably years. Okay. Have you ever heard my tummy rumble? No
2:04:06
You don't listen on headphones, do you? No. No. Because Keith's obsessed with it
2:04:11
My tummy rumbles terribly some mornings, like really terribly, especially if it's quite a serious conversation
2:04:17
or quite a poignant moment. So we're both quiet, the caller and the presenter
2:04:21
We both go a bit quiet and then my tummy just goes... Because I don't like breakfast
2:04:26
I'm one of those people that doesn't really like to eat food in the morning
2:04:29
So I've started eating overnight oats and it didn't really make much difference
2:04:34
It's acid, isn't it? It's all the stuff that breaks the food down
2:04:39
And because there's no food in your tummy, it's more echoey. Oh, I've done it again. I've done it again
2:04:46
I'm not supposed to be doing this. But that is, I think, the answer
2:04:51
Just an echo. Not an echo as such, but you know how anything that's empty is..
2:04:56
Yeah, it is a kind of echo, but if it's empty, it's going to be magnified. It's going to sound louder
2:05:00
I mean, think about a bag. Put something in an empty bag that's making a lot of noise
2:05:07
and then put a lot of apples in that bag and the noise will be a lot quieter. Okay
2:05:12
So it's always gurgling, your tummy. but when it's got no food there to actually digest
2:05:18
it's much louder than it is when it's full of food. Okay, that makes sense
2:05:23
It does make sense, doesn't it? Am I going to have to have another round of applause
2:05:27
Well, you decide. Shall I take another round of applause? I don't know, because it ruled me out the chance of being in a game
2:05:33
No, not at all. Don't take one. Go for it. Well, thank you very much, Tim
2:05:36
I'll have another. Thank you very much. There we go. Cross that one off as well. Right, no more answers from me
2:05:42
It's annoying for everybody involved, except me. Nixon Harrogate. Nick, question or answer
2:05:47
Answer, please. Tickets and Oyster Cards. Carry on. So, very quickly, Oyster Cards can be registered or unregistered
2:05:55
and they obviously store the information, because that's their sole purpose for being
2:05:59
On the card? Credit cards. Yes, yeah, the data is stored on the card
2:06:03
as in where you've checked in and all that kind of thing
2:06:07
Interestingly, though, your debit card, your credit cards, your phone thingy, your contactless phone, they also store a tiny bit of data. It is not
2:06:19
that when you tap in that data is streamed up to TFL and then goes back to the inspector device A tiny bit of information is held on your device or credit card to allow them to see only what time you checked in where
2:06:36
and the fact that there's some sort of balance that can pay for the fare
2:06:41
which is why when you see people getting their ticket inspected, if they haven't tapped in and they try and fudge it
2:06:46
a big red light comes up that says this person didn't tap in. So there's nothing in the inspector's hand
2:06:54
that is... There's nothing in the inspector's hand except the ability to check the card
2:07:03
There's no record there of any transactions or anything at all. No, no, no
2:07:07
That information goes back to TFL head office and if they think that you regularly commit fraud
2:07:13
because they're taking details from you... That's the television programmes I've been watching
2:07:18
Yes. and then the investigation team, they will take all of that
2:07:22
and they'll look at your history and obviously mainline train companies can do the same. Well, of course it's there because my phone tells me, doesn't it
2:07:29
My phone tells me what I've used it for. It literally has it on one of the pop-ups
2:07:33
It will say, you know, you've used transport for London this morning. So if my phone can tell me that I've used it to go
2:07:40
then so can my card and it doesn't stay there for very long, I presume
2:07:45
because there's a finite amount of information, as you say. It's a tiny amount, but it's enough to say
2:07:50
And it will tell you where, so you will be able to talk about for example, if
2:07:57
you suspected that I had bought a ticket. That's more of an
2:08:03
online thing, isn't it? No, you've answered the question. I don't know why I'm picking holes in it. Qualifications
2:08:08
Train driver, railway worker know about these things. Oh, well played. Up Harrogate Way
2:08:15
Yes, York. Yeah. But that's where the museum is. It is. The National Rail Museum
2:08:21
Although I don't visit very often. Well, you know it all already, Nick, don't you? Why would you be like me going to a radio museum or something
2:08:28
What am I going to learn, Nick? What am I going to learn when I know it all already
2:08:33
Or at least I think I do. I love that answer. Have I got any other questions
2:08:37
I'm not a train spotter, are you? Not massively, but if you want to ask me something, feel free
2:08:44
No, it wasn't that so much. I'm just sort of... I'm a fellow enthusiast
2:08:48
Have you heard the news from Beaudley? Is this the commuter shuttle
2:08:53
Yeah. Yes. It's exciting, isn't it? No? I suppose so. Well, hello, hello, hello
2:09:01
What's the problem here, mate? Well, interestingly, you can't buy the ticket from Beaudley to Birmingham
2:09:07
You have to buy one... Beaudley to Kidderminster. To Kidderminster. Correct. Why did you say Kidderminster in that tone of voice
2:09:15
No reason. Well, you just said you've got to buy it from Beaudley to Kidderminster, like that
2:09:21
I don't know, maybe I just prefer Stourbridge. Oh, flipping heck. Well, they've got a very special train there, of course, Nick, as you would know
2:09:27
They do. But not everybody else would. A very special train. So you can't, yeah, so, I mean, that's because it's not a British Rail line, is it
2:09:34
Or rather a network rail line. It's a Seven Valley Railway line. But you can get a train from Beaudley to Kidderminster
2:09:40
and then get a ticket from Kidderminster into Birmingham. It's purely, as I'm led to understand
2:09:46
it's purely the cost centres and making sure the fare money is allocated properly
2:09:49
Yeah, I mean, what people may not know is that some days, should you choose to commute from Budely to Kilimanster
2:09:55
to Birmingham via Kilimanster, or Worcester, you could go the other way
2:09:59
on a Tuesday or Wednesday or a Thursday when the commuter line is running, that some days it's going to be pulled
2:10:04
by an actual steam train, mate. Yes, yeah. Well, that's exciting. I said I didn't do trains
2:10:13
but I do sometimes stay in Beaudley at the guest house opposite the Great Western
2:10:19
and I may or may not partake once a year, usually in October on diesel weekend
2:10:23
but that's a different story. It's a top day out, isn't it? And there's a lot to Beaudley. It's a lovely little town, a really lovely little, one of my favourite places
2:10:30
And the fish and chip shop, by the way, is the one with that famous girl from Instagram, isn't it
2:10:35
Merchant's House. Yeah. The Merchant House Fish Park. Oh, we're covering a lot of ground together
2:10:40
And anyway, you've got yourself a round of applause already. 1241 is the time
2:10:47
I'm not fully au fait with the Instagram thing, but I went in to buy some fish and chips there lately
2:10:51
and there was a cardboard cutout of the young lady who's achieved fame on
2:10:55
by being top-quality fish and chips and obviously making some excellent content
2:11:01
So there you go. You live and learn. Andrew, and this is just uncanny, is in York, where the Railway Museum is
2:11:06
Andrew, question or answer? Answer, James. Carry on. uh crisps are made of uh sliced potatoes yes um and that's it that's it nothing else
2:11:18
yeah they put fresh knives on for each load of potatoes that goes to the factory line do they
2:11:22
really they do yeah they do yeah and you grow certain grades and types of potatoes mainly
2:11:28
high dry matter that you make crisps with so everything else in the crisp aisle is not
2:11:34
technically a crisp? No, it's starch, basically. It's extruded starch. So, in other words
2:11:40
you make it into a mush, and you fire it through a dye and
2:11:44
make a shape. Like Pringles is a hyperbolic shape. It starts off with
2:11:48
a mush. And a hula hoop is a hyperbolic shape? Well, it's
2:11:52
not whatever shape you make, whatever shape you make. It's basically starch
2:11:56
The starch can come from any source. It's an absolute classic UKF food. So
2:12:02
So it could be maize, it could be corn, it could be potatoes
2:12:07
and it still wouldn't be a crisp. It still wouldn't be a crisp. No, no, crisped is sliced potato, fried in oil
2:12:12
and then the flavour is sprinkled on them. Either way you said that, you could have been in an advert
2:12:20
What about skips? Skips? No, no, no, they're extruded again, aren't they
2:12:24
They're extruded. It's a word you use a lot in life, extruded, isn't it
2:12:28
It's not a word many of us use much, but it just drops off your tongue very casually, Andrew
2:12:33
I worked in farming and producing potatoes for the industry my whole life, believe it or not
2:12:40
I do believe it. Yeah, and I was good at it as well
2:12:44
Well, what's the difference between someone who's good at it and someone who's bad at it? They don't make any money
2:12:50
Oh yeah yeah I should have worked that out for myself I got to ask you officially now even though you told us what are your qualifications I didn do too well at school I went to a similar school to you
2:13:02
And got beaten a lot. And yeah, I just fell into it
2:13:08
I just worked in farming and then I went to agricultural college
2:13:11
And the spuds you grew would be the spuds for the crisps? Well, I managed them for farmers
2:13:16
I helped them grow them, you know, so I was the advisor. I was called an agronomist
2:13:20
So, of course you were. So, a vegetable crisp, a beetroot crisp, is not a crisp
2:13:27
Well, it depends. It's not starch, and there's no mush involved. Nothing's been extruded
2:13:33
No, no, no, that's a vegetable crisp. Yeah. I agree with what you're saying there, but that's just advertising, isn't it
2:13:39
I guess it is, yeah. I love that. Lovely answer. What's your favourite crisp? My favourite crisp is salt vinegar
2:13:45
Just straight up. I won't mention the brand. So, in fact, when Dale asked that question
2:13:49
and I said, what's your favourite crisp? And he said, what did he say? He said a salt and vinegar disco, I think
2:13:55
He wasn't even mentioning a crisp, was he? No, it was extruded. It's an extruded starch product
2:14:01
It was, yeah. And what they make the starch of, you wouldn't really want to know about, but read Van Tullican's book
2:14:07
Oh, it's all in there, is it? I can't read that book. Do you know why I can't read that book
2:14:12
Do you want to know why, seriously? I'm jealous. It kept me off the number one spot in the paperbacks
2:14:18
I was number two for weeks. Well, at least two. It's an excellent book
2:14:22
You buy it as a library book. Yeah, whatever. You buy it as a library book. Yeah, well, a lot of people
2:14:25
blooming did, Andrew. Enough to keep me off the top spot for a fortnight. I can tell you
2:14:29
Anyway, it is a brilliant book. You're absolutely right. And I have read it, so I'm only sort of pretending
2:14:33
to be a really petty, jealous little author. Round of applause for Andrew
2:14:41
12.45 is the time. We better take a little break. James O'Brien on LBC
2:14:47
It is 12.48. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC, where Mystery Hour continues
2:14:53
Rowan is in Cheltenham. Rowan, question or answer? It is another stomach-related question
2:14:58
Marvellous. Carry on. So, when we're upset or we're quite stressed out about something
2:15:06
why is it that we lose our appetite and we don't want to eat anything
2:15:11
Oh, that's a nice question. Yeah. I mean, famously so, especially if you're sort of heartbroken or if you're..
2:15:21
After a trauma or something as well. Yeah. Yeah. Just don't want to eat
2:15:25
Whereas it should probably, evolutionary-wise, maybe be the other way around in that you should be building up your strength and stuff if you're going through a difficult time
2:15:32
I do think, is it that your body is sort of diverting energy away from your stomach to try and..
2:15:39
To your adrenaline. Maybe the adrenaline is fooling your body into thinking that you have it
2:15:45
It's probably when you're adrenalised that you don't want to eat, isn't it? Yeah
2:15:50
Oh, I love that. Something like that. It's quite late in the day, but I shall do my best to get you an answer, Rowan
2:15:54
Thank you. You're very welcome. I thought it was pertinent. That's a lovely one. Why do we lose our appetite
2:15:58
I mean, we could still... No, I gave myself a round of applause for the other one. Why do we lose our appetite when we're stressed or really upset
2:16:05
0345 6060973. Henry's in Ilford. Henry, question or answer? Answer, please, James
2:16:11
Carry on, Henry. So, I feel that my answer is going to give you another round of applause here
2:16:15
No, I can't. No, it's yours now, mate. I've already had three. No one likes a show-off
2:16:20
So, it's in relation to the, why do we park next to people in empty car parks? Yes
2:16:26
In essence, you are right. So, there's definitely a herd mentality kind of element of it
2:16:30
So, we want to kind of, you know, park near other clusters of people and objects. There's also potentially kind of an influence of cynical proximity bias
2:16:38
which actually happens a lot in companies. so like where things you're close to you're more likely to um feel are positive and good yeah um
2:16:47
which also then links into like the perceived safety element of things as well so being able
2:16:52
to like uh feel that you're less like if your cars get broken into if it's around a lot of other cars
2:16:57
a bit like being in a pack in like a in a bit of a dangerous area you're better to be in a group than
2:17:00
not makes sense doesn't it qualifications a psychologist and and this is you've read this
2:17:07
You've studied this. It's a known thing. So not specifically for car parks
2:17:11
because we'll have to do every research for that. Why not? Well, because it's not going to advance what we already know
2:17:16
What do you people do all day? Just therapy, James. Oh, for heaven's sake
2:17:21
Therapy, shmerpy. I want more car park-based academic research. Oh, I love it
2:17:27
Yeah, so herd mentality coupled with proximity buyers and maybe a little bit of parking more
2:17:33
using the other car as a gauge by which to park your car straight. because even subconsciously
2:17:38
subconsciously we're worried about, you know, diverging from the norms, don't we
2:17:44
Subconsciously, you don't want to stand out. You don't want to kind of draw attention to yourself
2:17:48
Yes, exactly. And I think if I'm not mistaken as well, I don't think there's research on this
2:17:52
but I think I was having a discussion with some colleagues and when you have car parking spaces that have got bollards
2:17:57
that you can see through your car window, they always seem to be full
2:18:02
whereas the ones that are just like flat on the ground, people don't park into, probably because they can't see the thing on the ground
2:18:07
to help them engage. There's a wonderful social media account dedicated to bollards
2:18:12
I don't know if you've ever come across it. I have seen this. It's brilliant, isn't it
2:18:16
It's probably one of my sort of favourite deliberately, the World Bollard Association
2:18:21
one of my favourite deliberately funny accounts. And they're still at it
2:18:26
They posted yesterday, a fried egg bollard. Thank you. Round of applause for Henry, the psychologist, please
2:18:31
I like that. There you go, Barry. If you're not turning the bank over yet, then that is the answer to your question
2:18:36
If you're still sitting in the car waiting for Fingers McGee to blow the whistle
2:18:41
and set the latest crime that your group is undertaking underway. Martin's in Huntingdon. Martin, question or answer
2:18:48
Answer, James. Carry on, Martin. Hi, I thought I'd answer the question about why your stomach gurgles
2:18:54
Oh, yes. I think I did a fairly decent job, didn't I? You did okay, actually. Not bad
2:18:59
Thank you. But you're going to go further. right yeah so when we eat food it's um goes into our stomach and our stomach starts secreting
2:19:07
gastric juices acids and enzymes and then the stomach also massages and squeezes the food to
2:19:14
break down the solids but also to mix with that acid and enzymes and slowly over time the food will empty from our stomach yeah and then we get to a point where our stomach completely empty but it still releasing those gastric juices So they still being released
2:19:29
into the stomach. And what will happen is our stomach will just fill up with that acid and
2:19:33
enzymes and it won't be too good for us. So what the stomach does once it's empty every so often
2:19:39
is it does what's called a housekeeper wave. And it's a really strong contraction where it just
2:19:43
pushes everything, all of those juices out of the stomach down into the small intestine. It's like
2:19:48
grabbing a tube of toothpaste and just squeezing it all out in one go
2:19:53
So it's called a housekeeper wave and because you've got that liquid being squeezed fairly rapidly, you get that gurgling
2:19:59
that kind of gurgling noise. So this describes the biggest of the gurgles, really
2:20:04
That's exactly what it is, yes. Wow, this is sensational. Qualifications? Well, I studied the biophysics of the human gut
2:20:11
for about 20 years. Only 20? Only 20, that's right. And then back in 2008, I developed the first mechanical model
2:20:21
benchtop model of the human stomach, which is being used in the pharmaceutical industry now
2:20:26
Say that last bit again. So 20 years ago, I developed a mechanical laboratory-based model
2:20:32
of the human stomach, which is used to study how drugs and foods are taken up
2:20:36
And before that, what did people do before you did that? Well, we've only really had a really good understanding
2:20:45
of the mechanics of the human gut since things like MRI we were able to use
2:20:50
But this is extraordinary. Is it named after you? Well, it's called Model Gut, so unfortunately not
2:20:57
But you, one-man show, it's single-handedly. No, it was a two-man show
2:21:01
It was myself and my colleague Richard, but yeah, that's right. Will people who are big in the biophysics world
2:21:09
will they know who you are? Yeah, of course they will. Unfortunately, I haven't been working in that field for the last 15 years
2:21:16
But you invented the model by which all sorts of gastric tests and science
2:21:23
is through which it is all conducted. Well, it was the first, but now other people have invented
2:21:29
or have developed other models, so there's many models around, but it was the first
2:21:33
Johnny come lately. Well, I have to tell you, I didn't think we'd be having one of these
2:21:38
on a question about gurgling tummies, but I think we're better. I'm Ray Liotta and you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
2:21:46
If you build it, they will come. Have you won any awards before for your work
2:21:54
A few, but not for many years, that's right. Nothing in that category, mate
2:21:59
Yeah. Nothing as impressive as a Ray Liotta on the J-7. That's brilliant, thank you
2:22:04
Thank you. Well, 12.55. Charlotte's in Crook. Charlotte, question or answer? Answer, James
2:22:11
Carry on, Charlotte. Yes, so it was to do with the fight or flight response question
2:22:16
We just need the thirsty foxes and then I think we've got a full house. If anyone knows where the foxes drink, I think I answered that, didn't I
2:22:22
But anyway, carry on then, Charlotte. Yes, so you were right, James
2:22:26
It is about adrenaline. So we lose our appetite in times of stress
2:22:33
because our fight or flight response gets triggered off. And what that does is it sets off a lot of
2:22:39
a big surge of adrenaline gets released, those hormones, in order to give us lots of energy to be able to survive
2:22:46
whatever situation we're in. So the last thing that we need at that point is something like
2:22:51
you know, our stomach digestion away, takes up quite a lot of energy to do that
2:22:56
Does it? It does, yeah. Even though it creates a lot of energy
2:23:00
I mean, you've got to speculate to accumulate. Yeah, I mean, if you imagine yourself in a situation
2:23:07
where you're faced with an imminent threat right in front of you, then..
2:23:10
I haven't got time to transfer extruded starch products into actual kinetic energy. You absolutely don't
2:23:17
I've got to get my butt in gear and get out of there. Get out of
2:23:21
dodge. Exactly. You have to run away as fast as you can or you have to fight
2:23:24
off whatever's in front of you. For that, your body directs all of its attention to things like your major
2:23:30
muscle groups, your arms, your legs. Either get yourself out of dodge or be
2:23:35
able to fight that threat. Sensational. qualifications? I am an NHS psychotherapist and I work a lot with PTSD and traumatic grief
2:23:44
Oh, wow. Of course. So you know an awful lot about the whole fight or flight process. There's
2:23:51
no way of knowing, is there? I mean, is there any way of... Are we genetically programmed to be more
2:23:57
fight than flight? Some of us and more flight than fight others? Or is it just entirely
2:24:01
situation dependent? Because some people are... That's a really interesting question. I don't
2:24:06
There's a first time for everything, Charlotte. There's a first time for everything
2:24:11
No, that's a really interesting question. I don't know, but you certainly do meet some people who are more fight
2:24:16
and some people who are more flight. Yeah. It's true, 5248. A round of applause for Charlotte, please
2:24:25
What a lovely mystery, Aaron. Thank you for indulging my whimsy. I was in a particularly whimsical mood today
2:24:30
I don't know why. I do know, though, that we've failed on one front and one front only
2:24:36
We have not got an answer to the question of thirsty foxes, but I think we'll probably go full board on this
2:24:42
and I'll take another round of applause. Foxes during a drought. Did Marco not accept my answer
2:24:47
I thought he did. But they're going to still be able to drink out of ponds and streams
2:24:52
even small rivers. And there's still fruit falling out of trees. So foxes, I don't think, run any risk of dehydration
2:25:02
during the kind of summer that we've just had. So one more round of applause for me on that. Thank you very much
2:25:07
And I'm going to give the Mystery Hour game of his choice, either the one in a tin, it's a travel edition
2:25:12
or the original Mystery Hour board game to Andrew in York for bringing some top-quality training CZS banter to the programme
2:25:20
of which, frankly, there would be a lot more were it not for the fact that I have a producer
2:25:25
That's it from me for another day. If you want to listen back to any of today's show
2:25:29
you can do so on the free Global Player app or the LBC app, where you can also stay up to date with all the latest news, videos and opinions
2:25:35
you can listen to a range of podcasts including James O'Brien Daily and Full Disclosure
2:25:39
I'm about to record one with Eric Idle and download the official LBC app for free
2:25:43
from your app store now. Coming up at 4 on LBC Tom Sawbuck now, it's time for Sheila Fogart
2:25:47
James O'Brien on LBC
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