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"Go to bed with a racist, wake up next to a misogynist" | James O'Brien - The Whole Show
Oct 17, 2026
This is a catch-up version of James O'Brien's live, daily show on LBC Radio from the 16th of October 2026.
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0:00
It's four minutes after ten, you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
0:07
And what a strange week it has been. Donald Trump backtracking on his promise to his followers to live stream the execution of a terrorist in a wheelchair
0:18
But, I mean, it is domestic politics that draws our attention once again
0:24
I'm kind of fascinated by what's going on at the moment with regards to Reform UK
0:32
I appreciate that if you are uncomfortable listening to evidence of what they are, who they are, what they stand for
0:39
because you've been drawn to them, then I just would cautiously remind you that you're uncomfortable with what you're becoming
0:45
You're not uncomfortable with hearing journalism or consuming journalism. and you're uncomfortable with what you are
0:56
And that's great. And this is really important. I remember when Steve Bannon said
1:01
you should embrace the accusation of racism. But the fact that you're not ready to embrace it yet is brilliant
1:08
because it means that you are not a bigot. It means that you are capable of changing your mind
1:12
You're capable of shame. You're capable of knowing that you are becoming something really, really ugly
1:20
And this is the fascinating thing about the research that ITV have done, because what happens when all of these candidates and councillors and senior politicians and junior politicians, what happens when they think they are in private is that they make it clear they don't have any shame
1:38
It's a weird... I mean, it's almost a spectrum, isn't it? So you're messaging me to say, don't talk about this
1:44
you know, change the record or whatever it might be. You're kind of scared of your own reflection in the mirror
1:50
or disgusted by your own reflection in the mirror. And then you've got the people who would be very outspoken
1:57
and bigoted and racist in private. They're just frightened of the public reaction
2:03
that they are not disgusted by what they see in the mirror. Do you see the difference
2:07
Is this worth exploring a little further? So you're still listening to this program, despite being drawn towards Nigel Farage's bigotry
2:16
And that means that somewhere deep inside, you know that what you're becoming or what you're doing or the path that you're going down is wrong
2:26
If you've signed up for the party and you are publicly pretending not to hold the views that you express privately, you've gone much further down that path, haven't you
2:36
you've gone much much further down that path you are not ashamed or disgusted by the reflection
2:42
that you see in the mirror you are simply wary of the reaction you will get when other people
2:48
see your real face so so you pretend not to be these things you pretend not to be those
2:54
not to hold those views and then because you're probably although by no means definitely not the
3:02
sharpest knife in the drawer. You have a new colleague or you have someone who's offered to
3:07
go canvassing with you and your mask immediately drops. Your mask immediately drops. You immediately
3:14
start saying things and expressing views that you know are toxic to right-thinking people
3:25
but which you are really committed to, that you really, really hold
3:30
So, I mean, there it is, in a sense. Nigel Farage's defence, as ever
3:35
is that it's not his fault. Nothing is ever his fault. If Shaggy wasn't black
3:41
Nigel Farage would probably have him as his favourite popular music artiste
3:45
because it wasn't me. It was never me. It wasn't me. I didn't do it. It wasn't me
3:50
And claiming that it's impossible to vet people over things that they haven't said yet
3:55
while completely ignoring the fact that they have failed completely to respond properly
4:00
to things that people actually have said, including his own communications director
4:05
calling for a candidate called Chris Parry to be suspended after indulging in incredibly racist abuse of David Lammy
4:17
That's the point, isn't it? That's the thing I'm a little bit confused about today. is that, I mean, I'm witnessing, look, some of the Farage apologists and cheerleaders are just
4:26
pretending that none of this is happening. You know, you could probably turn your telly on or turn your radio on, and some people who are in the business of tickling his toes won't be talking
4:34
about it at all. And again, that's kind of a good thing, because at least they're not lying
4:39
or pretending that there's nothing to see here. But it's another spectrum, isn't it? So in the
4:44
same way that some people are still a little bit ashamed of what they see in the mirror
4:48
when it's held up in front of them, and some people aren't. They're just worried about what the reaction of the public would be
4:54
So it is in the media that some of the Farage apologists and the Farage cheerleaders will simply not talk about it at all
5:00
because it makes them feel a bit uncomfortable or because it would involve a little bit of self-examination
5:05
It would involve a little bit of honesty. So let's just not talk about it
5:10
Let's not talk about it at all. Versus actually defending him or saying these are just bad apples
5:17
or these are the consequences of unfair journalism. So there's spectrums everywhere on this story
5:25
And yet the thing that I find really bizarre and the thing I feel a bit embarrassed about, actually
5:31
is that it's all so obvious. I mean, who honestly thought that a political organisation
5:36
led by Nigel Farage would not attract hideous racists and misogynists? Who? I mean, put your hand up
5:44
Who honestly... Remember the fellow who got in touch yesterday? saying, I can't believe you keep calling reform racist
5:50
I support reform and I'm not racist. Just a quick look at his message history to this studio
5:55
And he was expressing a hope that no foreigners ever come to Cornwall
5:58
Not illegal immigrants or refugees or asylum seekers or people forced to come here via unsafe routes
6:05
but literally foreigners. And then I don't know whether it was tongue-in-cheek or not
6:10
but then also literally stating, I can't possibly be racist because I've got a black friend
6:14
You have to hope that's tongue-in-cheek, But, spoiler alert, some people are still living in 1973
6:22
So the spectrums are there. And the denials, as ever, with Farage are both mealy-mouthed and disingenuous or downright dishonest
6:31
Because, of course, the accusations involve plenty of evidence of people saying things that they were made aware of and seeking to excuse or ignore, sweep under the carpet
6:43
And there's a couple of things. We're going to get stuck into the clips from the ITV news investigation shortly. There's a couple of things that I think really merit closer examination. And it's this idea that any of this is surprising
7:01
that's where I'm feeling a little bit embarrassed it's as if you remember when we were
7:08
looking for Tories who weren't obsessed with Brexit and wondering where they go now
7:14
do you know I think I've been holding in my mind out of decency
7:19
and kindness I've been holding in my mind the possibility that you could stick across
7:24
in a box for this fella and not be comfortable or sympathetic with the racism that he represents or the racists that he obviously attracts and has done for his entire career that the idea that you
7:38
you could be looking at a political party that is absolutely obsessed with small boats despite the
7:46
fact that they're plummeting this year absolutely obsessed with immigration despite the fact that
7:50
it's come down at a rate of knots absolutely obsessed with the the number of people coming
7:56
to this country who are for example from former commonwealth countries or who are of color and
8:03
completely forgetting that just just 10 years ago your man said this i take a very strongly
8:10
pro-commonwealth view i think it was very bad and wrong of us to turn our backs on the commonwealth
8:16
in favour of a European political project, and we've made a bad mistake
8:20
So now what we do is, if you've got a qualification and you come from India or you come from parts of Africa
8:27
you now find it very, very difficult to get into this country
8:32
despite the historical, strong... You're still anti-immigration, so I don't see... I'm sorry, I won't have that
8:38
You are anti-immigration. You've used scaremongering and inflammatory comments in your campaign
8:43
that have gone against people that look non-white. How are non-white British people going to stop discrimination
8:51
about their identity and nationality in this country? That is what I really want to know
8:55
It's extraordinary, right? There he is, calling for more non-white immigration. And what is his literal political platform now
9:03
What is it? You tell me. What has he ever stood for except racism of different hues
9:07
Back then, it was Eastern Europeans. It was people with names like Novak that he wanted to get rid of
9:12
that he didn't want to have in this country. claiming that he wanted more people from India and Africa to come here
9:17
You literally heard that, right? More people from India and Africa. So how has he ended up attracting people or defending people
9:26
that are incredibly racist about someone like David Lammy, who was born in South London
9:31
It's almost like a kind of knot that we've never successfully untied
9:35
because we are dedicating too much time and energy to thinking that it's complicated
9:40
It's really not. Any party led by Nigel Farage has attracted racists and bigots on an extraordinary scale since the very, very beginning
9:49
The man that founded UKIP accused him of routinely using the N-word in conversation
9:56
Of course, there were no microphones there. So when journalists want to investigate what these people say in private, they go in with microphones
10:02
And guess what the reaction is? To complain about the microphones. It's absolutely extraordinary that we're all sitting here
10:07
Well, no, because we're not all sitting here today marvelling at how blatant it is and how commonplace it is
10:14
And how really you just have to follow one of these people around for five minutes with a hidden camera
10:19
And they will say something absolutely hideous, something that would get you sacked from most jobs
10:23
Indeed, I think one of them has been suspended from his job in the prison service already
10:27
And yet the point here is what they say in private, what they all seem to say and believe in private
10:35
And who gets to be surprised by that? You've got your hero, your leader
10:40
literally calling 10 years ago for more immigration from Africa and India and now portraying more immigration
10:45
from Africa and India as being the end of British civilization as we know it
10:49
or part of some sort of great replacement theory. It's the absence of honesty
10:53
that I can't stop focusing on. This absolute absence of honesty because you show me this man today
11:05
and then standing next to the man from 10 years ago calling for more immigration from Africa and India
11:11
you tell me what the hell is happening here, what the heck is going on and why so many people are falling for it
11:16
We'll look shortly at the latest tranche of evidence, not just of racism
11:21
because as I tire of telling you, where racism goes, misogyny very quickly follows
11:26
Unfortunately for Sarah Pochin, the MP who is uncomfortable with seeing brown and black faces on television
11:33
she apparently never clocked the fact that if you get into bed with racists
11:36
then you will wake up with a misogynist. It's 10.15. James O'Brien on LBC
11:45
17 minutes after 10 is the time. It's a bait and switch as well, isn't it? Because what you're going to get now
11:50
is the senior members of reform saying, we won't tolerate this sort of thing, there's no room in our party for racism
11:55
and then sing behind their hands when the statement is finished, and then the rank and file all piling onto the internet
12:01
to say they're only saying what we all think. And I think Farage's great genius, and I use the word advisedly, is to wink at them
12:08
In fact, there's kind of evidence of that in the ITV stuff that was broadcast last night
12:14
How can Nigel Farage publicly claim? I mean, they even claim they've done more to keep the far right out of British politics than anybody else
12:21
which is, I mean, it's comical to a tragic degree. But that's what they do
12:27
So they all think that Nigel agrees. They all know that Nigel agrees with them
12:32
but he's just a little bit better than they are at never quite giving it away
12:36
That at least is the view of Ian Frost, the former chair of Reform's Chester branch
12:43
So what's the vetting process like then? The vetting process is the first stage
12:49
He meets with the chair of a Reform branch in Chester and tests the reaction when he mentions his support for Tommy Robinson
12:56
I've previously got an account where I've been like some support like Tommy Robinson
13:01
and like retweeted some stuff like that that i don't know what were they what accounts on twitter
13:06
and well apps isn't it you're deleting them they're there but i can find them delete them ideally
13:11
delete them right yeah i think tommy robinson is our dumpting yeah yeah and i think the bulk of
13:18
what he says i agree with right the book not all but politically he's toxic and what nigel
13:24
courage has learned over 30 years of being in politics is you've got to play the game a little
13:28
of it anything where you've got things tommy robinson or anything like that okay i would
13:35
delete the account and i'd start again with no red flags raised he's encouraged to apply
13:42
you might become a counselor you might then want to go to the mp route yeah yeah so social media
13:48
yeah then apply i'll join you on the group any questions give me a call brilliant all right lovely
13:54
Ian Frost told us he thought the reporter was a genuine candidate and gave him the benefit of the doubt
13:59
Do you have to be careful? Yeah, of course. He said it's not fair to judge people on a single conversation
14:05
and that for unrelated reasons, he has now left Reform UK. Oh, bless
14:10
That's the thing, isn't it? You know, there it is. Someone saying, I want to be a candidate
14:14
Someone senior in the party saying, well, you better delete your far-right affiliations then
14:18
and pretend you're not like that. And crucially, what Nigel has learned over 30 years of being in politics
14:23
is we've got to play the game a little bit. There's another one who said something like
14:27
you don't tell them what you're going to do. You just wait until you're in power, and then you do it. Who gets to be surprised by this stuff
14:33
Who gets to be surprised? And it goes right to the top as well, because this is Farage talking to his own communications director
14:39
about a mayoral candidate who everybody wanted to sack. In defence of some of Farage's colleagues
14:45
everyone else in this room wanted to sack him for being hideously racist about David Lammy
14:50
a British politician, but not Nigel. I apologize to Lamb Yeah that what he doing If David Lamb is taking it He not too happy with it I sure but we just need to do it and move on Yeah I agree Turning that properly Yeah It absolutely He showing a bit of a bit of sock I sorry it probably
15:10
a good thing. Yeah. If you use a rear app, that's the problem. But later, Reforms Director
15:19
of Communications said Chris Parry should have been dismissed. who decides if these people stay or go is it neither
15:30
21 minutes after 10 is the time so there it is someone who um suggested that a black british
15:48
person to somehow return to the Caribbean gets to stay in the party until he went even further
15:53
later and finally had to be suspended. And that line about going to bed with a racist
15:58
you're waking up with a misogynist seems to have come as something of a surprise to the
16:03
Reform MP Sarah Pochin. I'm a press officer. I'm starting in January. Oh, my God
16:09
Really? I can't f*** with that. We so need women last episode
16:14
Yeah, they are so f***ing chauvinistic. I go out on all the shows to go, oh, that's lovely
16:20
Oh, that's so welcoming. What do they do? They just exceed you if you're a woman
16:27
There's a bit of a bell issue. And then we head back to Makerfield
16:33
where the former candidate, Alex Lomas, revealed just how rigorous the vetting process is
16:42
ITV's undercover reporter is in Greater Manchester, where Reform are campaigning in the Makerfield by-election
16:48
I usually have it in my pocket, but I don't want to vend them all. He meets Alex Lomas
16:52
who says he's twice failed Reform's vetting process to be a party candidate
16:57
The first time he applied, he said, we can't because you use the word **** excessively
17:01
Is that it? Oh, no, in case that **** loads of video. The second one was a Tommy Robinson post
17:06
What was that? I don't even share it with Tom Robinson, Paul. It's too far, right? Tommy Robinson is banned from joining Reform UK
17:13
But despite being rejected, Lomas says he then got a phone call a few days later
17:18
Basically, on my second application, I got declined on the Friday. I got an email for you on the Tuesday
17:23
Can you pass pay? And I said, I think you better check your paperwork, mate, because I've just failed it on Friday
17:27
Now he's saying I passed it, I've not changed anything. And I got a phone call a few days later
17:32
I know what you've done for Reform UK. I'm like, yeah, it's all good, mate. Thank you, thank you, thank you
17:36
They failed you, but then lay back in on Tuesday anyway. Yeah, yeah. But they needed someone to stand
17:41
They basically just wanted to say, we are standing a candidate in every single ward in Oldham
17:46
Yeah. In May, Alex Lomas did stand for reform in Oldham in the local elections
17:52
and came second, losing by just 200 votes. 24 minutes after 10
17:58
and just because I think it's worth it, you can go back 12 years
18:02
to get a bead on just how sincere or honest or trustworthy Nigel Farage is being
18:10
when he talks about how important it is to vet candidates for his party
18:16
It was a different party. I think it was a different party but two or but one
18:20
It's hard to keep track, isn't it? But one thing is always true. Whatever the party is called, it's always full of racists
18:26
This is him talking to me, actually, I think, in 2014. My argument, James, is this
18:32
Wherever we have found people who have had extreme, racist, unpleasant views
18:37
we've unceremoniously got rid of them. Furthermore, I've tried to protect the party by making absolutely clear
18:43
that anybody that had previously been a member of the BNP or organisations like that
18:47
cannot even join as a member. And to hold up the views of a handful of people as being representative of UKIP
18:54
frankly isn't the truth. I mean, you've got to feel sorry for the fellow, right? I mean, it just keeps happening to him
18:59
It's almost as if he's walking through a garden that is full of rakes. lying flat on the pole
19:05
And everywhere he puts his foot, there's a rake that just springs up and smacks him in the face
19:09
That's what, 12, 14, 12 years ago. He's having exactly the same conversation
19:14
and making exactly the same claims. And now we've got footage, we've got recorded footage
19:19
of people who have publicly expressed profoundly far-right views being encouraged by Nigel Farage's army
19:25
to delete their messages and sign up for the party anyway. And that line, the line I think
19:30
that's most important of all, What Nigel has learned over 30 years of being in politics is we've got to play the game a little bit
19:38
So there it is. Fair play to ITV News for this extraordinary investigation
19:47
You sort of find yourself wondering why nobody's bothered doing it before. And don't forget to tune in on Sunday evening when I suspect that they haven't even released the worst stuff yet or the best stuff, I suppose, depending upon your perspective
19:59
I suspect that we're going to be seeing stuff on Sunday evening that is even more damning
20:06
And you can predict with absolute certainty that there will be two responses from reform
20:11
They will try and claim to be the victims. And they will try to claim that there is nothing to see here
20:17
They will simultaneously try to say, poor us, poor us, poor us. And how dare journalists do journalism
20:25
So it's been on the news two nights running now on ITV
20:29
and the documentary from which all of this reportage is drawn will be on Sunday evening
20:36
So, I mean, it is... And remember, I mean, they've only got a finite number of journalists
20:40
It's almost as if every single rock they've looked under has thrown up racists and or misogynists
20:46
And who here can honestly say that they are surprised? And that's the bit I want to get into, really
20:52
I'll read you this first, actually. I'm friends with the wife, this is unsigned, of a reform councillor
20:57
She's tried not to tell anyone he's in reform when he was a conservative councillor, everybody knew
21:02
She knows it's something I wouldn't approve of. She's explained to me that she isn't racist
21:06
and she couldn't be because she works with Asian nurses. And then she tells me how lazy they all are
21:10
There's no part of her that ever saw anything wrong with what she was saying. And 10 years ago, she would never have said this
21:18
So I think that we want to ask a couple of questions now
21:24
One of which is, I mean, the reform person in your life
21:32
the reform voter or the reform supporter in your life, and you're not going to believe me when I tell you
21:37
that I want some people to answer no to this question. I want yes as well
21:42
but I want some people who answer no to this question. The reform supporter in your life
21:48
are they racist? So we don't need to do undercover journalism. I don't need to strap a secret camera to my lapel
21:56
or hide a microphone in my handbag. I can just ask you, because it's your mum that we're talking about
22:01
or your friend, or your dad, or your uncle. And that line there breaks my heart
22:06
She's saying things she never would have said ten years ago. There is a reason why people are doing that
22:12
Someone has given them permission. Oh, indeed, Adam picks up this point
22:15
James Farage is giving the permission structure, just like Trump banging the drum for racism
22:21
Mrs. May didn't stand up to Trump's racism. Farage went to Mar to kiss the ring of the Grand Wizard Freedom of speech is a ridiculous conscript Go to any town in the UK and within two minutes you will see a person of colour They are part of our society full stop
22:35
So, and the other line you'll hear is, this is how everybody talks down the pub
22:39
this is how everybody speaks in private, which is just not true. There's probably three responses to what's going on now
22:46
Claim we're the victims, blame the journalists, and then, despite the fact that it contradicts
22:51
everything that's gone before, claim that they're just saying what everybody else says
22:56
So the reform, just simply put, you can, you know, I don't need too much detail
23:00
on who or what they are, but you know someone, and I think it would be even more powerful
23:04
if you love someone and they support Nigel Farage. Are they racist
23:12
Oh, three, four, five, or are they expressing racist views? Because remember, it's a spectrum
23:18
Are they likely, if you were to secretly record them, to come out with the kind of stuff that you've heard all of these candidates and councillors come
23:27
out with? That's the question I want you to answer. Hit the numbers now. You will actually get through
23:31
because this is, even by my standards, a longer introduction than usual. But that's where I want
23:35
to start. I've been over-complicating questions lately, I think. This is really simple. Close your
23:41
eyes, think of the reform supporter that you know, and then give me a ring and tell me whether or not
23:45
they're racist. And I swear to you that I would love to hear people say
23:49
no, but I'm equally keen to hear people say yes. The reform supporter
23:53
in your life, or even just on your socials, are they racist
23:59
0345 6060 973 is the number you need. Dominic Ellis has your headlines
24:06
James O'Brien on LBC. 10.33 is the time. And also, how have they changed
24:12
Because that line there about how they're saying things they never would have said 10 years ago
24:16
So the reform supporter in your life, straight up question, are they racist or are they expressing racist views
24:22
And the second bit is how have they changed? How have they become more emboldened
24:29
How would you chart the evolution, if you like, of their positions and their opinions
24:36
And if you're one of the people I'm talking about, absolutely 03456060973
24:42
But you would have to bear in mind that 10 years ago, Nigel Farage was telling you that he wanted more Indians and Africans to be coming to this country
24:50
So in a sense, he's got exactly what he hoped for when he encouraged you to vote for Brexit
24:54
And yet all he does is moan about it. 0345 6060 973
25:01
What does it do to relationships as well? One final clip before we go to George in Leeds
25:05
And this is essentially press officers revealing what we all know to be true
25:13
What is your job if you are working as a press officer for Nigel Farage
25:17
Well, here they are telling you. ITV's undercover reporter then meets with Ed Sumner
25:23
Reforms Director of Communications, who warns her how far she'll need to go to defend the party
25:28
We have to start defending the Inventory. We've got to defend the Inventory. Oh yeah, me
25:33
So we've got a very tricky work, Barry. He's gone tomorrow. They're talking about Chris Parry
25:39
He was Reform's mayoral candidate in Hampshire, a former Royal Navy officer who said online
25:44
that British-born Labour MP David Lammy should go home to the Caribbean where his loyalties lie
25:49
and question the loyalty of eight other black and Asian politicians. And, of course, that is of a piece
25:55
with what Suella Braverman has said more recently about who can and who cannot be English
26:00
So, I think we've probably fallen into the British trap of being a little bit too polite, haven't we, historically
26:08
But I don't think, I can't think off the top of my head of anyone in my immediate circle
26:12
who fits into the category I'm describing, so I want to hear from you. The family member, the friend, the loved one in your life
26:18
who is supportive of this politics, and the simple question of whether or not
26:23
any of them are not racist. George is in Leeds. George, what would you like to say
26:29
Hello, James. Hello, George. yeah i had a um lodger um who lived with me for quite some time he was um actually my friend from
26:37
many years ago um back um from when we were you know very young 16 15 um he was an avid report
26:45
reform supporter he had lots of kind of christo fascist views what does that mean christo fascist
26:53
he kind of justified his racist views and speech with the fact that you know we needed christianity
27:02
to rise up and defeat islam and all that type of stuff he was a real kind of trump supporter
27:07
maggor supporter when did it start um i think when he went away abroad to other countries
27:14
and came back a different person and i just didn't recognize him anymore and the last 10 years i mean
27:21
how do you police or how do you navigate that? Because he's your friend. He's living
27:28
in your house at one point. I'll ask one cheeky question. I have to throw him out in the end. And what was the breaking point
27:34
What was the kind of... Just him trying to impose those views on me
27:38
and kind of force them down my throat all the time, inviting or
27:42
wanting to invite, you know, reformed party members around to my house, which I just
27:45
didn't want, obviously. Don't want those sort of people to kind of be around my house
27:50
I don't agree with their views or their opinions. Yeah, just kind of very almost not always outwardly erasing what he'd been given permission to be of that opinion that, you know, Islam was bad, Muslims were bad
28:04
What did he hope to do about that? What was his sort of – did he have a plan on how we were going to have, I mean, fewer Muslims coming to this country or fewer Muslims living in this country by the sounds of it
28:16
Did he have – He didn't justify the violence against things like the mosques and things like that
28:20
but when I mentioned that there'd been attacks on mosques, he was kind of almost, well, you know, there's worse things that could happen
28:27
And it's kind of like, oh, really? That's really it? So, yeah, we ended up clashing quite badly
28:32
And you asked him to no longer live in your house? Absolutely. And where is he now? Do you know
28:37
No idea. I think he went abroad again. Do you think he might be at church? He does go, yes
28:44
Yeah, he does. whether I feel that his values are truly Christian, I'm not quite sure
28:49
It doesn't matter what we think. You should share them with the priest. That would probably be the best thing to do
28:55
or indeed with members of his congregation who might be of colour
28:59
Thank you, George. I mean, it's tricky, isn't it? The navigation, the negotiation of these things
29:04
but a lodger and an old friend is a lot easier to cut out of your life
29:08
than a mum or even a partner. 1038, and I would like to hear all of those examples
29:13
the idea that this documentary is unrepresentative seems to me to be ridiculous and that if you were
29:21
to secretly record your friend or your family member who is a fan of nigel ferrish they would
29:26
be coming out with stuff um indistinguishable from what the bigots who were recorded by itv
29:32
came out with ian is in sheffield ian what would you like to say hi james thanks having us on
29:36
listening to you along for i'll say yeah no good speak to you um i'm third generation so on my dad's
29:42
we came over on the Windrush. My dad has recently basically remarried, and his
29:50
new partner of a few years have really just started getting into reform, and
29:54
post a lot of reformed, anti-immigrant rhetoric online. And it does, it causes huge
30:00
issues with our family to the point where we've had to say if you keep doing this then you're no
30:05
longer going to be welcome in our house which has caused a big problem within our own family i mean
30:10
we're a working class family we all work um i've worked in some really male orientated environments
30:14
and worked at sea well according according to richard tice mate you hear this stuff all the time
30:19
we don't and this is it and this is the huge insult the huge insult i mean i can't say the
30:25
word that we'd call it, but it rhymes with pons. If someone was to say
30:29
something about a woman and then compare it to your daughter in a sexual manner, it would be disgusting
30:34
There are limits, and the fact that he thinks that that's okay. And I was listening to some of your
30:38
colleagues yesterday and some of the reform voters that are coming on there. Why don't they ring me
30:42
Why don't they ring me? Because they know that they'll have to explain
30:46
a couple of simple questions. What do you actually stand for? How do you feel about
30:50
old Nigel saying he wanted more African and Indian immigrants back in 2016
30:55
So tell me what they were saying. I was busy yesterday. Well, they were just really struggling to condemn
31:00
some of the things that those councillors were saying. And it is. It's indefensible
31:05
How dare you suggest it's indefensible? It's only their own press office who described it as indefensible
31:10
and their job being to defend it. So it's going to divide, isn't it
31:14
And this is the thing. I don't know how to defuse this thing
31:18
I don't know how to defuse this thing because you're going to claim, A, that this is completely unfair
31:24
and it's an appalling invasion of privacy, and B, they're only saying what everybody thinks anyway
31:31
They can't both be true, can they? It's not... No. So why are they not saying it openly and publicly
31:39
Because they're too ashamed. Well, you'd hope they were ashamed. Yeah, you would hope
31:43
Well, that's my spectrum. You know, people getting cross with me for talking about it
31:47
are still capable of being ashamed. The people who are being recorded saying this stuff in private
31:52
but are not remotely bothered about being ashamed. They're just bothered about being outed, if you like
31:58
as racists in a society that happily still rejects racism most of the time
32:03
Are you going to fall out with your dad as a consequence of this? I mean, we're trying not to
32:07
I mean, it's a really difficult situation, but it is an education thing
32:11
I mean, I think that she's acting with the best interests at heart
32:15
without realising that what she's doing is causing harm. And it's such a strange being a mixed-race family
32:22
come in and just bad mouth immigrants and blame the whole country
32:26
What's your dad's ethnicity? No, so on my dad's side, we're all English, but my
32:32
grandad came over on the Windrush, so he's from Jamaica. So your dad is
32:36
half West Indian? Yes. Right, okay, and then your mum was white, is white
32:42
Yes. So your dad is actually one of the people that his own wife
32:46
is complaining about, but she doesn't mean him. No, I mean, very much
32:50
he almost detracts himself. it doesn't apply to me. And I've had to explain to him
32:55
yes, it does apply to you. Not only does it apply to you, but it applies to me
32:59
and it applies to your grandchildren because he doesn't seem to understand
33:03
that the anti-immigrant rhetoric applies to all immigrants. They say it's just the people on the boat
33:09
but we're not politicians here, let's be honest. They just mean anyone who's not white. Well, that's what these clips demonstrate
33:14
They mean David Lammy and they defend the man who means David Lammy
33:17
That's got nothing to do with small boats. So he can still run for mayor after saying David Lammy's got no business being in this country
33:24
because he's black. Exactly. And when I walk down the street, people see my skin colour or see my daughter's skin colour
33:31
and I don't have a sign above my head that says this is one of the good ones. Or a clock that ticks back to when you first arrived
33:37
or when your granddad first arrived. Yeah, no black, no dogs, no Irish. It's weird
33:42
I mean, do you know what annoys me, Ian? What annoys me is that you and people like you
33:48
will be putting all of the effort and all of the generosity in trying to build these bridges
33:52
and trying to keep these relationships alive because you love your mother, you love your dad
33:56
and possibly you love your stepmother as well. But they won't be putting any effort into it at all
34:01
And in their other ear, this poison will constantly be poured. And I don't think we are hearing anything in these recordings
34:08
that we're not seeing on the websites and the Facebook pages of the kind of people that are drawn to this pseudo-politics
34:16
But it's going to be up to you, isn't it, to pour oil on the water and try to keep things sweet until you perhaps reach the point where you can't do it anymore
34:25
And that's the unfortunate situation. I mean, I am sort of quite happy that I know that a lot of the activity online is bots
34:30
And I think that emboldens people. People think that there are more of them than there actually are
34:35
And that's the question. You know, so back in the day, you'd have some guy in the corner of the pub who'd shout and scream something
34:40
And people are like, oh, shut up, John. Don't worry about it. But when people go online and they're supported by bots and obviously the Internet brings people together, they are able then to find like-minded people
34:50
And then this grows and the misinformation that gets spread. And I had an argument with them recently
34:54
Oh, don't give me the facts. Oh, welcome to my world. Oh, there you go
34:58
It was funny when it happened. Yeah, and that's it, isn't it? Because there's something really comforting or nourishing about the feelings, even if they're based on non-existent statistics
35:09
And that's where the I don't mean you thing comes from. I'm sorry for what you're going through
35:12
I really am. What's the plan for Christmas, if you don't mind me asking? Well, we just continue as normal
35:18
I mean, you know, we're at that stage where do we invite them, do we not
35:22
because of the offence. I know some family members have already said that they're not welcome
35:26
Yeah. And I feel sorry for my dad. I said, I don't think she's doing it out of badness
35:32
but I don't think she really realises. And a lot of my friends or ex-friends didn't realise what they were doing
35:37
because I had to point it out to them. I understand you may have legitimate concerns over migration
35:43
Yeah, right. I don't believe they're real, but you've got a legitimate concern
35:47
However, what you're doing is that you're standing next to people that are extreme and you're racist because you happen to share one opinion
35:57
That's again very generous. Which looks after each other. And they're also putting a target on your back
36:01
I think that's what, again, if anyone really needed it spelling out, that's what these clips make clear
36:06
You know, it's not just new arrivals or refugees who've crossed on small boats
36:11
It's David flipping Lammy. It's everybody who isn't white. It's the black faces on television
36:16
It's the black faces on the pavements that Robert Jenrick walked down in Birmingham
36:20
So by support, even if you allow them the defense, the fig leaf of legitimate concerns
36:25
which I am increasingly persuaded has been quite a big mistake by the decent side of the country
36:31
even if you allow them their legitimate concerns they are still painting targets on your back
36:36
they are they are and and and my families and that's that's really what's changed the situation
36:41
and that's what i say do you realize what you're doing will hurt your grandchildren because i've
36:46
grown up through the 80s and experienced racism and things like that and it sort of went away
36:50
and over the last few years it really does seem to have made a bit of a comeback oh for sure i don't
36:54
want my daughter to experience the same things and that's the argument i say to my friends and
36:59
family members that may be going down this path. It's like, not thinking about me, thinking about
37:03
your friends. Don't look at what you see online. Look at your friends who come from
37:07
immigrants. Look at your friends who are immigrants. Are these people going off committing murders
37:12
I'm not saying that immigrants don't. Of course they do. Every demographic commits murders
37:15
There's some horrible stories around at the moment that we're probably not
37:19
but shouldn't talk about. There's one story in particular in Stockport that is unthinkably hideous And yet I don think there be any protests or marches or masked men descending upon streets where they not welcome as a consequence
37:35
of the crimes that men have been convicted of in those cases
37:39
Ian, thank you. Good luck. I don't know how patient I'd be in the same situation that you're in
37:44
I hope I'd be as patient as you, but there comes a point where patience is pointless, doesn't there
37:49
I don't know what you'd do. I mean, maybe we can add that to the conversation that we're having today
37:55
Can you help people out of these holes? Or can they only ever climb out of them themselves
38:01
In which case, I don't have any finalised at the moment, but as soon as Ian goes, you can have his
38:05
How did you see the light? How did you get out of this? Because do you know what really breaks my heart at the moment
38:11
And I use that phrase. It does break my heart. Sometimes you sort of think, oh, don't let them know that they're upsetting you
38:18
But it breaks my heart that children are getting involved. I don't think we'll see anything worse
38:23
Within the context of things that are not hideous crimes, obviously, I don't think we'll see anything worse than children shouting
38:30
let them drown into loud hailers this year. I just can't conceive of what that home life is like
38:37
for a child to be encouraged to scream let them drown into a loud hailer outside an RNLI station
38:46
where refugees, quite possibly including children, have been landed. And there it is
38:54
It's all about that, isn't it? It's all about the house that you're in
38:58
and the relationships that you're in. And if you are in a relationship of any kind
39:03
friend, family, well, if you're the parent and it's the child who's gone
39:07
I don't think I've ever come across that one yet. Then, I mean, it's bonkers, right
39:12
to pretend that they're not right, isn't it? Oh, my mum's a reform supporter
39:16
She's the least racist person you'll ever met. Said nobody. ever. James O'Brien on LBC
39:24
10.52 is the time. This is nice from Steve. I'm a reform supporter and the reason I won't call
39:30
is that you are a skilled debater and I'm not. You'd destroy me, belittle me
39:34
and call me racist and I wouldn't be able to get any of my points across. That's okay, mate
39:38
You can write them down. I am not racist. I align with reform more than any
39:42
other party. I hate a lot of the abhorrent comments on the news the other day, but
39:46
nevertheless, the party and what they stand for align with my views. I want to stop
39:50
the relocation of Africa and Asia to Europe. That's it. Well, you support the party led by this man
39:58
I take a very strongly pro-Commonwealth view. I think it was very bad and wrong of us to turn our
40:05
backs on the Commonwealth in favour of a European political project. And we've made a bad mistake
40:10
So now what we do is if you've got a qualification and you come from India or you come from parts of
40:17
Africa, you now find it very, very difficult to get into this country, despite the historical
40:25
strong... You're still anti-immigration, so I don't see... I'm sorry, I won't have that
40:28
You are anti-immigration. You've used scaremongering and inflammatory comments in your campaign
40:33
that have gone against people that look non-white. How are non-white British people going to stop
40:40
discrimination? I mean, there it is, Steve. You don't even have to ring in. And I don't even have
40:44
to be a skilled debater to point out to you that the man who leads the party that you claim you
40:49
support despite not being a racist you just want to stop people coming here from africa and india
40:53
literally campaigned during brexit on replacing european uh workers with workers from africa and
41:01
india what's it like to have somebody like steve in your life oh three four five six oh six oh nine
41:07
seven three and i think that's i mean we can scratch steve's claims that he's not racist
41:12
or at least not a bit daft off the board, how do you deal with it
41:18
0345 6060 973 is the number that you need. Laura is in Sheffield
41:24
Laura, what would you like to say? Morning, James. Hello. Hopefully I can help you out with what's it like
41:30
to have somebody like that in your life. Not so much good on what you can do about it
41:35
because I'm kind of hoping that listening to this this morning I might get some ideas
41:40
Yeah, we might move on to that in the next hour. I don't know what the answers are, but somebody might. And it's more likely to be somebody who's come back out of the swamp, isn't it, than someone who can sort of advise on helping people out of the swamp. But go on
41:52
Yeah, sure. So I've had a best friend for about 20 years, been through absolutely everything together
41:59
And I'm very, very close to her and her mom. When I met my friend and her mom, her mom was a labor supporting, mirror buying, quite left leaning person
42:14
And the difference in her in the last 20 years is it's unbelievable
42:18
so she's 70 they came up this summer and we were sitting in the garden
42:26
and I actually asked them to come inside because the thought of any of my neighbours
42:32
hearing what she was saying it was just awful what was she saying
42:39
I know I can trust you to be discreet I mean it's obviously
42:45
the race thing is the number one thing it's all about immigrants and the fact that, you know..
42:52
Where do they live? Again, I don't even like repeating. No, fair enough. Do they live in an area of high immigration
42:57
No, that was one thing I said to her when she was saying about the boats. They live in Nottingham
43:01
Right. And I said, oh, that's a big problem, is it, in Nottingham? Yeah, boats arriving on the docks of the River Trent
43:08
So she doesn't mean the boats then, does she? No, but that's... That's the thing that they've been given permission to articulate
43:15
Yeah. and the other thing is even when I try to go push back on some of this you hit a brick wall I don't
43:22
want to talk about it I don't want to talk about it I'll end up falling out I don't want to hear it so you can't even kind of try and reason with them and maybe make them see another side they
43:30
don't want to see another side to their their beliefs I I genuinely think with her it was
43:37
covid it was sitting in the house it was getting a mobile phone and it has just gone I think she's
43:42
just fallen down this algorithm of absolute hate and any sort of problems in her life is directly
43:49
then applied to you know i mean we went out james to a lovely anyone who knows sheffield there's a
43:54
lovely place called longshore beautiful stately home me and my friend took her out there and we
44:00
went and sat down we got a nice cup of coffee and a and a local school turned up from somewhere in
44:05
sheffield that obviously had a slightly higher than normal asian population i just saw a load
44:10
of school kids turning up to come on a school trip soon as those the kids said she was bristling
44:16
oh here we go you know and it was i was so uncomfortable because i thought she's going to
44:22
say something you know something's going to happen blimey how does your friend how's your friend
44:26
coping with it and what's it doing it to your friendship with her well this is the thing we've
44:30
i've i've had to try and step back my friend isn't she always just says i'm not really political so
44:35
Whenever we talk about anything, she just kind of steps back. I think she's quite embarrassed, but obviously it's her mum
44:42
so what's she going to do? And I think she's... I mean, as I say, it's 20 years, best friend I've ever had
44:49
and I'm at the point now where the last time she came up, I said to my partner, first of all, I said
44:54
can you take the kids out Because I don want my kids hearing any of this So I wouldn even let her be around my children And I think for me that was a kind of the final straw I thought if I can have her in my garden and I can have her around my kids why is she my life
45:06
And that sounds awful for someone that's been there for 20 years
45:10
No, but you see, you're doing what the other lad did, is that you're the one doing the
45:15
suffering. You're the one being generous. It hasn't crossed her mind that when she comes to sit in your garden, maybe she shouldn't say things that she must know by now
45:22
you find deeply offensive. Yeah, well, there's no filter, though. That's the other thing I find odd
45:28
So she doesn't even need to be secretly recorded. I mean, she's just going all in on it, wherever
45:35
And I think these people are as well, but this is just the first time anybody's had a microphone near them
45:40
I mean, you know, you can't imagine... Some of these people, these journalists, have only been there, like, an hour
45:45
and they start with the racism immediately. They're doing it all. They're doing it all the time
45:50
This is how they talk all the time. And you have to presume, if Richard Tice thinks this is how all people talk all the time
45:57
that this is how he talks all the time as well, or the people around him talk all the time
46:01
albeit with slightly more privately educated accents. Yeah, and I think like you were saying there to the other guy that
46:07
oh, sorry, the other guy was saying that now they're on a forum where everything they say
46:12
or everything they think, there's loads of people backing it up. And the more that they click on those things, the deeper and deeper they go
46:19
And I think that when they, you know, it's almost like being part of a club, isn't it? you know, and they feel, but it's, I mean
46:24
obviously we're talking about the racism side today, but it's everything. We don't
46:28
believe in autism, we don't believe in vaccinations, it's like, you know
46:32
I kind of glance at stuff online just to see how sort of bad it is, and it
46:36
is just parroted. Does she think that Michelle Obama is a man? Oh, I
46:42
don't know if we've had that one yet. We haven't touched on American politics. It's very, very local
46:46
Yeah, well, clearly. I'm sorry for what you're going through. I'm grateful to you for sharing
46:50
and I wish I could say something a little bit more helpful to you. Maybe somebody else can
46:55
I'll keep listening. Well, that's the main thing, isn't it, Laura? And so will I, actually, because I can't get enough of this
47:02
I've got to be honest with you, because it shouldn't take ITV news
47:06
I think I might have dropped the ball a little bit lately. I worry sometimes about, you know
47:11
drawing attention to the same issues again and again and again, but if they are the most important issues in our country
47:17
or, in the case of Donald Trump, the most important issues in the world, then actually I need to give my head a wobble
47:22
Of course it matters. Listen to all these lovely people whose lives are being polluted and blighted
47:27
And many of them aren't even the victims of the racism. They're just witnesses to it
47:32
So, what's it like? Can we find that reform supporter? Because it wasn't Steve
47:36
Can we find the reform supporter who isn't a racist? 0345 606 0973
47:42
In the first instance, though, the question is, what is it like when someone you care for, someone you love
47:47
a childhood friend or a childhood friend's mum, a stepmother or a father, a brother or a friend actually goes down this road
47:54
Or, and I mean this, motion surely, folks, have you got one in your life, a reform supporter
47:59
who will be as repulsed by the racism being spouted by pretty much every candidate that they manage to get a microphone near
48:07
Do you know someone who will be as repulsed by it as you are? 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need
48:16
There's a couple of phone lines free now. It hasn't been for a while. So grab one while you can. It's 11.01
48:21
James O'Brien on LBC. Minutes after 11. So this is, you know, an exercise in checking claims, really
48:29
The claims are that all of the candidates and councillors and canvassers recorded being racist and or misogynistic by ITV News are not representative of the broader party or indeed of the party's support
48:43
and I want to know whether you think that's true and the only way we can really examine it
48:47
is by talking about the reformed supporter or indeed the reformed politician in your life
48:52
I don't think there's any other way you can do it. I'm not going to take Nigel Farage's word for it
48:55
I mean, call me weird, call me sceptical but I'm not going to take his word for it
48:59
I'm certainly not going to take the word of Richard Tice or Zia Yusuf or any of these characters or 30P Lee
49:07
I'm not going to take their word for it because Nigel Farage was telling me in 2014
49:12
that they needed to get on top of vetting and that they've done more than anybody else
49:16
to keep the far right out of British politics while he was sitting down in the European Parliament
49:20
with fascists, with actual fascists. So how else do we test? How do we check whether or not
49:27
affiliation with or support for reform equals racism? How do we do that
49:32
You and me. How can we do that? Easy. You know someone who supports them
49:36
You can tell me whether or not you think they're racist. 0345 6060 973
49:40
And the record so far is 100%. And it doesn't have to be
49:44
It really doesn't have to be. You know, it could well be that there are reasons to support them that are not racist
49:50
If, for example, you were set to make a ton of money out of cryptocurrency legislation
49:55
you wouldn't necessarily have to be a racist to support them or give them lots of money
49:59
You just have to be comfortable with the racism that is obvious. I wonder if anyone has asked Christopher Harbourn what he thinks about bankrolling this party
50:07
a party that contains people like Alan Feeney, the deputy mayor of Solihull
50:13
So when a house comes up for sale, white people need to be in there. You almost need to f*** out Muslim the Muslims
50:20
You'd need a proper nuclear option, like literally drag them at their homes
50:25
stick them on planes and f*** them off to Pakistan, which you'll never do in a month of Sundays
50:30
I'd be saying no more than 1% of British population can be non-white
50:37
Nothing to do with small boats, is it? It's just to do with skin colour, or, if you prefer, racism
50:44
Here's Dean Miller, another councillor, this time in Bromley. We've been ethnically cleansed out of London
50:52
Because you never used to get any, like, tax on anyone over in Bromley. And now, you know, Bromley, like, massive larger in communities there
51:01
No, just like this, it's like all the ethnic... They're not, you know, they're not
51:06
They're not a animal. Right. It's hard to say it, I'm not racist
51:13
I mean, . And some of them, I mean, are obviously racist
51:18
but they're almost comically ridiculous as well. The Muslim thing that is going to be that thing
51:24
that takes over everything, and then everyone just has one religion. Because apparently, King Charles
51:30
You heard of that one? What's that? So this is Farage's people
51:49
These are Nigel Farage's people. That's not some weirdo in a... Well, it is some weirdo who might have been bothering you
51:54
in a bus shelter not long ago, but he is also a councillor in Bromley
51:59
He thinks that King Charles is secretly a Muslim. And, you know, on the other hand, so what if he was
52:05
It wouldn't be grounds to decapitate him, would it? I mean, these are conversations that you have to catch yourself occasionally having, aren't they
52:14
They're sitting here, oh, I think they've got legitimate concerns. Let's invite Tim Montgomery onto the programme to defend this bilge
52:21
No, there you go. He wants to chop King Charles head off because someone told him King Charles is a Muslim Vote reform So find me the I mean you tell me what it like whether or not it possible to find anybody in this world who is not like these people
52:35
albeit that they might be a little bit better at either expressing themselves
52:39
or keeping their views under wraps until they are more confident that they are not being overheard
52:45
0345 6060 973 is the number you need. I'd love to have a crack at the way back
52:54
I've only got, I mean, I'm very blessed with people getting in touch with me over the years, actually
53:01
But more so when I've got a book out and people can come up to me in public to tell me that I've played a small role in helping them or helping their loved ones get off these bandwagons of bigotry
53:11
But I don't have any advice, really. I don't know. Apart from asking questions rather than arguing, simply asking questions
53:19
But then, as we heard earlier, they're just, oh, I don't want to talk about it
53:23
I don't want to talk about, oh, yeah, I can't be dealing with your facts. I don't know how you do it
53:28
I've only got that one story. I know there have been others over the years, but my memory is like Swiss cheese
53:33
You know that. There's just that one story I always remember because it was really in the early days
53:40
really, really back in the day before Brexit, possibly before that Farage interview
53:44
where he explained 12 years ago how he was going to get on top of vetting
53:48
and it was the bloke who rang in to say that his wife had had enough
53:53
he was an early adopter of this stuff before the vaccines came along
53:59
before claiming that Michelle Obama is a man came along before all the madness
54:03
extra madness came along all the stuff that racism ushers in because it doesn't just usher in misogyny
54:10
it ushers in all the other madnesses as well because it is the most basic lie
54:15
your skin colour your ethnicity defines your value as a human being. Once that lie is unleashed, once that lie
54:25
is out and about, then all the other lies can follow. We have a side order of Brexit. All the
54:30
lies that were told about Brexit broke the most basic bond of trust between people contributing
54:37
to public discourse and people consuming it. The Brexiters lies and lied and lied and lied again
54:42
and we've never actually managed to get truth back in charge in this country
54:47
although Andy Burnham is trying, the biggest lie of all is that your origins or your ethnicity
54:54
somehow denotes your human value and that there's a hierarchy by which if you were born here
55:00
or if you're this colour, you're worth more than somebody who was born there or is that colour
55:05
And once that lie is out, once that lie is free as opposed to suppressed
55:13
which is what, wokeness or political correctness or common decency, as some of us prefer to call it
55:17
It keeps that lie tied down, you know. And once those bonds of decency are cut
55:25
and the lie runs rampant, all the other lies follow. All the other lies follow
55:31
So it's not a coincidence that the last caller was talking about her friend's mum
55:36
going down the vaccine route and going down this route and that route
55:39
They all go hand in hand because once a lie is allowed by a society, nobody gets to decide which lies come next
55:49
And I think our lie, I think our society has allowed these lies
55:53
I think members of my profession bear enormous responsibility for first not picking up the Brexit lies and second not picking up the obvious racism of people that they would invite into their studios and make cups of tea for and have dinners with and go out for lunch with
56:10
I mean how do you do that unless you're comfortable with the racism? And if you're comfortable with the racism then you've believed the lie
56:17
you believe that you are worth more than that person over there because of your ethnicity or
56:23
your origins but where that lie goes all sorts of stuff follows the only story i've got
56:30
did we clip it up can we see if we can find it because i may have i don't know i think it may
56:36
have been in the days before that even happened and a bloke rang in and his wife just told him
56:40
to put his laptop computer away. I tell you this story quite regularly
56:44
because it's almost sort of nostalgic now to think that it could perhaps be that simple
56:56
And his wife told him to put his laptop away because she'd had enough of him
57:00
And he rang me and told me, I said, well, what were you buying? And he said, I was buying all this
57:05
I think it was EU stuff, wasn't it? Not necessarily the full-blooded racism
57:09
but the semi-skimmed version that they were selling during the Brexit referendum
57:14
And he was swallowing it all. He was guzzling it like it was going out of fashion. And it made him angry all the time
57:19
So there probably was a bit of immigration thrown in there as well. But who here can separate Brexit lies from immigration lies
57:27
He was guzzling it like it was going out of fashion. And it was making him angry
57:31
And his wife didn't like him anymore. I wonder whether I should have
57:38
paid a little bit more attention at the time because it was almost like a
57:42
it was almost like a canary down the coal mine that caller
57:46
his wife didn't like him anymore the reason I just caught myself then is that I haven't said that
57:50
phrase before when telling you this story, his wife didn't like him anymore
57:55
and the thing is, she still loved him but she didn't like him anymore
58:00
and she knew that what you fall into you can climb out of
58:05
And all he did, all he did was stick the laptop under the sofa
58:10
I think it was Yaxley Lennon, or Waxy Lemons, as some people like to call him
58:14
I think it was him. I don't think it was Brexit. I think it was Yaxley Lennon
58:19
And I said, what did you do? He said, I just tucked the laptop under the sofa. I haven't taken it out for a week
58:23
I think it was a week. Was it a week? I said, how are you feeling now
58:27
He goes, I'm feeling great. His wife kind of got him back
58:31
and then the other story I tell because I you know I don't have this in my
58:38
personal life the other story is that time I did jury service
58:42
I've probably bored you with that one enough we should talk about what do you do
58:48
how do you I mean so I want to know more about what it's like to have somebody
58:53
in well I want to know whether all of the reform politicians and candidates
58:59
and supporters being recorded being incredibly racist. They want to know whether they reflect the things
59:06
that your reform supporting friends and family members believe and say to you, 03456060973
59:14
But if you've come back from the dark side, maybe you can offer a little bit of an insight
59:21
a little bit of advice into what happened. How did you get off this bandwagon of bigotry
59:28
Hit the numbers now. You will get through. It's 11.16. James O'Brien on LBC
59:33
Ten minutes after 11, another trance last night on ITV News of reform candidates and councillors and canvassers being incredibly racist
59:41
except there's nothing incredible about it, because you show me so far a reform supporter
59:46
and I will show you a racist. I don't know why we're all so nervous of saying that out loud
59:50
Is it because we want to believe that things are different? But here's your opportunity to prove it
59:55
The reform supporter in your life, how racist are they? And I hope someone will ring me and say
59:59
One jot, James, not even a little bit. Oliver's in Littlehampton. Oliver, what would you like to say
1:00:05
Hello, James. Hello, mate. I have a friend who, to be honest, I find it all a bit confusing myself
1:00:12
but my friend ran the local council for reform last year, and we've only known each other a few years, friends from the pub
1:00:22
and we've got quite a group of friends. Not one other is a reform supporter
1:00:27
her husband is Iranian and of parents that ran away from
1:00:36
I think it was when the Shah got outed or whatever he's a refugee exactly and
1:00:48
if the situation then was the situation now he would have had little choice but to come here
1:00:57
in a small boat. Exactly. Yeah. And so our group of friends
1:01:05
as I say, when we found out, I was sat with her at the table when she got the email
1:01:10
saying that they wanted her to run for them. Right. And obviously all a bit of a shock
1:01:16
and her best mate sat opposite when great, my mate's an effing
1:01:22
you know, racist. Right. Oh, really? So someone called her, that someone sort of picked her up on it
1:01:28
Straight to straight immediately. And how did she respond to that? I'm just, I'm not, it's not, I mean
1:01:37
I sat there with a fellow who, obviously, you know. Well, I don't know
1:01:43
You keep saying you know. You're not doing something else at the moment. You're not playing Scrabble while talking to me on the phone
1:01:49
I know you said you were confused at the outset, but I'm not quite getting a handle on what's going on here
1:01:55
Does she say racist things when you're in the pub? Because presumably not, if you were all surprised to discover that she was running for reform
1:02:02
No. No. She doesn't come up with racist views. We tend to just..
1:02:07
It's more that if anything is said negatively, you get a rah, rah, rah
1:02:12
and then look at what Labour have done, look at what Conservative
1:02:16
and it's always a deflection. What does she think of Farage? I just had a lovely photo with him the other day
1:02:23
in our local town yes he thinks he's great that's the sort of disconnect isn't it
1:02:28
that's where it's like a sort of T-Moo Trump or a pound shot Trump
1:02:32
because he defends racists he called for more immigration from Africa and India
1:02:39
he completely ignores the fact that small boat crossings let alone net migration
1:02:44
is falling at a rate of knots and still tries to inflate
1:02:48
this balloon of bigotry. I appreciate you haven't sort of read her mind
1:02:53
or anything like that, but apart from the racism, what does she think reform stands for
1:02:59
I mean, does she ever tell you, does she ever talk about anything else in the context of the politics
1:03:03
She's not a cryptocurrency billionaire by any chance, is she, Oliver? Well, when you started saying that earlier, I kind of
1:03:09
wondered. She might be a cryptocurrency billionaire because either you're a cryptocurrency billionaire
1:03:13
or you're a racist if you support this lot, and it's easy to check. You can just
1:03:17
go to an ATM, have a little look at your bank balance, and if you're not a cryptocurrency billionaire
1:03:21
chances are you're a racist. But does she ever talk about anything else in terms of
1:03:25
policy or politics? No. Do any of them ever? I know. It's all deflection
1:03:33
But as a friend, we've tried to... There was immediately when it came out
1:03:40
everyone just said, right, we can't have anything to do with them anymore
1:03:44
And I did. I stopped them. and I just said, you know, she's not a nasty person
1:03:51
Really? I don't think she is. No, I don't know, you see. I think I say that as well
1:03:55
You're not a nasty person. It's my friend's mum. I called her and said they're not a nasty person
1:03:59
but they're coming out with stuff that's cruel. They're painting targets on the backs of people
1:04:03
who've done absolutely nothing wrong. I completely agree. That's a nasty thing to do
1:04:09
But I just hope that by us being around her, that we can soften it a little bit
1:04:17
How? How? How are we going to do that? Because I don't, I mean, how
1:04:21
By not sharing those views. And by challenging or by saying, you know, he called for this or he called
1:04:27
The problem is I don't have a problem with people coming in from Africa and India
1:04:31
but Nigel Farage's supporters do, and they probably need to be reminded that he was all for it not long ago
1:04:38
It's a nutty one. And I appreciate this is not a particularly deep bond
1:04:43
so you don't carry kind of psychic pain as a consequence of this. But I can hear the intellectual pain in your voice, the confusion about what the hell you are supposed to do
1:04:52
It is, I guess, only fair to ask, as a consequence of this report from ITV News
1:04:59
whether or not the people that their journalists have recorded and encountered are representative of the party
1:05:06
a party whose own press officers describe their job as defending the indefensible
1:05:11
Defending the indefensible. Dougal's in Dundee. Dougal, what would you like to say
1:05:16
Hi there, James. How are you doing? I'm good, mate. What's on your mind? Ah, good. So, it's actually just, I literally tuned into your programme
1:05:24
and within a few minutes I phoned up as I thought, this sounds quite like something that happened to me yesterday
1:05:28
I was driving with an immediate member of my family yesterday and they'd said that they'd witnessed an attack
1:05:36
wherever they were and said a group of masked men, they must have been coloured and they were shouting stuff
1:05:45
it must have been something like Al-Aqbar, it must have been these kind of
1:05:49
those things that they were saying, you know the type. And I was like, I don't think I do know the type
1:05:55
So she'd not heard any of it? She'd obviously seen what had happened
1:06:00
and had heard mumblings, but couldn't make out what had actually said and started immediately saying
1:06:05
well, they were coloured. In the current context. They were coloured, so they're shouting
1:06:09
But they had masks on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. and I just thought to myself, you know
1:06:16
this is somebody I've known for, well, I mean, it was essentially my mother
1:06:22
You didn't do a very good job of keeping that one under wraps, did you, Dougal? No, I didn't. No, I didn't
1:06:27
And just with regards to one of the words that you just used, I appreciate that that is the word that your mother uses
1:06:32
I mean, not everybody is aware that it now has, I mean, offensive connotations
1:06:38
because of course we are all um of one color or another but but it is your mum who's using that
1:06:45
that language when i'm not letting it go on unremarked or unchallenged on this program but
1:06:49
where's she getting this from so i i don't know so this is you know i'd obviously brought up in a
1:06:55
very you know respectful household it's any sort of household where you know values of equality
1:07:02
values of diversity were cherished. And now, you know, these were things that I'd never thought
1:07:10
that I would hear her saying. And it's quite scary because you think
1:07:16
where are these ideas coming from? The internet. Yeah and I obviously aware that you know spends a lot of time now on Facebook and on the internet and social media where a lot of these opinions are now trouted but it
1:07:35
I just I can't quite make sense of it anymore No, and nor can she, that's the point
1:07:41
isn't it, and she doesn't try to which is where this stuff ferments
1:07:45
and I mean, latterly masked men having a ruckus in public in this country are most
1:07:51
likely to be fascists shouting at lifeboats. I mean, that's the story that has been most
1:07:57
prevalent recently. Or she encountered some fairly kind of unpleasant criminality going on. The idea that it would
1:08:05
somehow be Islamic in its origin. Men shouting at, well, fight. I mean
1:08:11
I can see why you're confused. It's like racism that's assumed. It's assumed that this
1:08:19
must be, they're the bad lot that are coming across on the boats where actually a lot of them probably aren't
1:08:25
and I think there was something I'd seen I'm a nurse and I saw something the other week
1:08:32
that Nigel Farage had posted out and I'm not one of these keyboard warriors
1:08:37
but I got quite angry about it and he'd said something about
1:08:40
nursing is a profession which is something young people should aspire to
1:08:46
we shouldn't be something like we shouldn't be importing often lower quality nurses
1:08:52
from foreign countries. I didn't see that. I mean, it's your memory
1:08:55
I'll try and double check, but it's something he might have said, I suppose
1:08:59
Yeah, and I'd seen this and I thought, you know, some of the best nurses I've ever worked with
1:09:06
haven't been from Scotland, haven't been from the UK. No, it's not
1:09:12
And it's, you know, this kind of assumption that because you're from somewhere else
1:09:17
there's a lower quality, there's a lower, you know, you're not as smart, you know, it's arrogance
1:09:26
I think you're being kind as well. I don't think it's arrogance. I think it's dog whistling
1:09:31
I think it's blue touch paper because, you know, what he's not saying is that people of colour are inferior to white people
1:09:38
but he's talking to people, he's talking to that bigotry, you know, some less qualified nurses
1:09:44
I mean, A, it's nonsense, as you know, and B, it's bigoted, as he knows
1:09:48
But people like it, enough people like it to have kept him in the public eye since it became absolutely clear who and what he is
1:09:55
And it spreads. That's the thing. It spreads. Dougal, thank you. This is from Nathan
1:10:01
Our local football club offers free tickets to a community charity. And my nan commented, I bet all the tickets go to Bloomin' Immigrants
1:10:07
It makes me feel ill every time she makes these comments. And it's all coming from online
1:10:12
Don't worry about nursing. We'll just import somebody from Mali. that's sadly how the Tories and Labour view nursing now
1:10:20
this is what Farage actually said it's completely wrong nursing should be a high aspiration for young people
1:10:25
let's nurture our own talent instead of importing often lower quality nurses
1:10:29
from all over the world and there I'm doing it again the curse of the progressive you see
1:10:33
when's the last time Nigel Farage did a little fact check on himself before saying something out loud
1:10:37
but I have to challenge Dougal because I couldn't remember hearing that myself
1:10:41
and there it is right in front of me of course he said it lower quality
1:10:46
Lower quality people. That's it. That's the ideology. There is such a thing as high quality and low quality people
1:10:53
That's the belief. Trump talks about it even more explicitly than Farage does
1:10:57
And the irony of all of these people is that through, you know, variables, through all sorts of influences, if you actually had to judge the value of people by what they've done and what they've contributed
1:11:13
then the people who believe in high quality and low quality people would be at the very bottom of our pile of humanity
1:11:21
Nothing wrong with judging people by their actions. You know, it's what Dr. King was calling for in his I Have a Dream speech
1:11:28
But if you believe in high and low quality of people, you're judging them by their ethnicity or by their gender or by their origins
1:11:37
and anyone who subscribes to that school of thought is by definition, you can become president
1:11:43
of the United States of America and be a worthless human being
1:11:46
as the current one fully understands and demonstrates on a daily basis
1:11:51
It's half past 11, Dominic Ellis has your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC
1:11:56
33 minutes after 11 is the time you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:12:00
If I ever come back from a break in that tone of voice, it means that Keith and I have just been having a row
1:12:06
during the commercials or during the news. I come back, I go, you can't do that, mate
1:12:10
You've got to press the button. It's 34 minutes after 11, and you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:12:17
And obviously, I'm almost always in the wrong during those exchanges. It's 34 minutes after 11
1:12:25
And you know how he gets his revenge on me. He'll just start pressing buttons randomly, and I won't have any control
1:12:31
Shouldn't be allowed. I've spoken to him about this, usually during the news headlines
1:12:36
But anyway, if that does happen, then it's all part of the plan
1:12:40
It's all part of the plan. He's only following orders. That was a popular defense, wasn't it, a few years ago
1:12:47
Only following orders. I wonder what defense some of the people filmed by ITV News
1:12:51
being incredibly racist would offer up. One of them claimed he was on medication
1:12:57
And again, the curse of the progressive. I don't want to say that that is impossible
1:13:02
It's possible. I haven't read the small print on any of my medication recently
1:13:08
John Crace in The Guardian points out he's on quite a lot of medication at the minute, and just checking the small print may make you racist
1:13:15
I don't know. Painkillers? I'm going to take some generic ibuprofen. I'm just going to read the small print
1:13:20
Be careful, as this product may make you inadvertently racist or indeed misogynistic
1:13:28
I don't know what to feel about Sarah Pochin's involvement in this. She's the one that feels sick at the thoughts or at the sights
1:13:34
No, does it make her feel sick or does it drive her mad? I think it drives her mad when she sees people of colour on the television
1:13:41
And yet she apparently lacks the wit to realise... I'll come to that in a moment because Lewis has been waiting for ages
1:13:48
Lacks the wit to realise that if you go to bed with a racist, you wake up with a misogynist
1:13:52
Quite like that line. Shall we put it on a T-shirt? Lewis is in Malpass, near Chester
1:13:56
Lewis, what would you like to say? Morning, James. Thanks for taking my call
1:14:00
You're very welcome. Yeah, I think I've got my dad to the exception to the rule
1:14:05
So he didn't used to vote. Then he first started voting for UKIP
1:14:11
And then transitioned over to Brexit party and reform. And so my dad's married to a woman who's half Irish, half Nigerian
1:14:23
He's never, I've never heard him say anything racist in his life. always been, you know
1:14:28
black mixed-race friends, business partners, etc. Very well-educated, started multiple businesses, very successful
1:14:36
etc. But he's always been a bit of a conspiracy nut. Ah, okay
1:14:42
I mean, it's a very... I found Ron James. He's not a racist, but he is a massive conspiracy
1:14:48
theorist. It's a sort of mixed blessing, isn't it, really? Yeah, but it's always been quite..
1:14:55
The premiers have ignored it You know it always been quite innocent Okay fine you know What moon landings and stuff like that Yeah well in his early years it was aliens
1:15:05
then it's global conspiracies, David Icke, you know, that kind of stuff
1:15:10
Okay, yes. And it's all a big global conspiracy. That's why he was fed into UKIP
1:15:16
and leaving the EU. Okay. Because of that reason, he thought, okay, it's all a bit of a
1:15:22
you know, one world army and New World Order and all this kind of stuff. Where does he get it from? Do you know
1:15:28
It's just over the years. YouTube, mostly. It was all before social media became a thing
1:15:34
So, rabbit holes. Yeah, exactly. And the thing is, when I was younger
1:15:38
I was kind of... I found it all very interesting and fanciful
1:15:42
Of course you did. You should do that. And then when you grow out of it
1:15:47
and you kind of get educated, you go to university, et cetera, and you realise actually, you know
1:15:51
critical reasoning, you figure out actually that's uh that's not all true at all but um you can easily kind of fall
1:15:58
into it so there's no kind of racist element for him but then me and my brother are quite
1:16:04
left-leaning centrist um is probably how we define ourselves and um so we always try and kind of
1:16:10
talk him around whenever we meet up with him you know oh do you still think that you still think
1:16:15
this you know try and kind of put the reasons to him i guess but he kind of just a lot of it's just
1:16:22
deflection they kind of look past it because he's it's not necessarily the people in the party that
1:16:28
has any kind of attachment to right so he doesn't really care about the councillors or you know he's
1:16:33
never heard of these people um so what they think or what they say is irrelevant really um so i think
1:16:40
because his wife's english as well it's well they don't mean her that kind of thing plays a part
1:16:47
So what's he getting then? Because, I mean, I know that quite a few people have told me and I've missed out a bit on this
1:16:55
It's why I just wanged on about the way that the original lie of some sort of human hierarchy or low quality and high quality people that opens the door to all the other lies
1:17:05
But he's not interested in the original lie. He just sees reform as a repository for all the lies that he has fallen for
1:17:11
yeah i think it is it's very much a single narrative it's very much this global world
1:17:17
order all the other that's why he's never voted previously because well what's the point it's all
1:17:21
rigged um there's the outcome that's inevitable whereas for some reason reform and ukip it was
1:17:28
an opportunity to kind of vote against all that so it's he's always with conspiracy theorists it's
1:17:33
always a counter narrative so no but that means the more establishment farage becomes the more
1:17:39
your father becomes suspicious of him no or not no because because he keeps telling him he's not
1:17:47
establishment with his public school education and his career in the city and his support from
1:17:51
billionaires and his season ticket on the bbc and his patronage from all of the major newspapers in
1:17:57
the country it's not even that so with conspiracy theorists and counter narratives what they tend to
1:18:03
do is they anchor their beliefs to somebody or something. So they will take position
1:18:08
and then, regardless of what irrefutable evidence you provide to them, they will dismiss it, they will find
1:18:14
a different way of just avoiding the facts and sticking to their world beliefs, their
1:18:21
world view. Because that's way stronger psychologically than any particular fact you can give them
1:18:26
You can argue away facts, almost. It's the only thing, yeah, of course you can
1:18:30
I used to do that for a living. And I miss those days sometimes
1:18:35
I really do. Please ring me. 0345 6060 973. I promise to be gentle
1:18:40
But I still don't quite get the only bit of the jigsaw that's missing
1:18:44
Is there a bit of anti-Semitism there? Because the New World Order usually people might mention George Soros
1:18:52
or the idea that Jewish people are... I mean, that's more of a left-wing racism these days, not historically
1:18:59
I don't quite understand how he's ended up in Farage's team. There will be in there somewhere
1:19:05
Not that he's particularly come out with it. Israel are involved along with the US and the military industrial complex
1:19:12
and all that kind of stuff. So Mossad and Israel are involved in a lot of these things
1:19:18
Right. But nothing particularly against the Jewish people. So he could meet a Jewish person tomorrow and be completely fine
1:19:27
when they might be his best friend the next day. So it's nothing against Jewish people per se, but Israel in particular
1:19:34
yet they've obviously been involved in this. But talk about a new world order is not about an Israeli administration historically
1:19:42
It's about a Jewish conspiracy, in my experience. Yeah, I think he leans more towards the American side of that
1:19:49
Okay, okay. But I think one of the things, just in terms of how we kind of, I guess, resolve it with my dad
1:19:58
because I think the main thing for us is getting him away from social media
1:20:04
Not that he's huge on social media. Like I said, it's mostly YouTube for him. Getting him off the internet, really
1:20:08
Alternative media, basically, yeah. Because obviously traditional media is all conspiracy and bias and whatever
1:20:16
So it's getting away from those sources that are obviously just clickbait
1:20:22
and trying to get money and all that kind of stuff. Does he send money to any of them
1:20:28
No. I think, so he has previously with, what was his name now
1:20:34
Jones in America. Alex Jones. That's the one, yeah. Oh, okay. Well, big mate at Farage's, of course
1:20:40
Although I think he doesn't like us talking about that anymore. So that's actually where I fell out with the conspiracy stuff
1:20:46
So when I was in my teenage years, and I think Obama was president
1:20:51
or just becoming president, and it was all, quite uniform in terms of how they talk
1:20:59
between Democrats and Republicans. There was no kind of bias, per se, at the time
1:21:06
It was, regardless of who's president, they're always bad, blah, blah, blah. And then, I think, was it Trump who immediately followed Obama
1:21:13
It was, wasn't it, the first time. And he, all of a sudden, you just saw the huge shift
1:21:19
Oh, Trump's amazing. Trump's the best thing ever. Trump's going to clean the swamp and put them all in prison
1:21:23
and all this kind of... And that's why I kind of clicked and went, hold on a minute. A minute ago, you were just saying
1:21:29
no matter who, they're bad, terrible, all of a sudden, all your weight is one candidate
1:21:34
Yeah, we underestimated that, didn't we? This QAnon business about the army of secret
1:21:39
paedophile cannibals that Donald Trump was privately battling. There you go. We found it too ridiculous to take seriously
1:21:45
but you can't have a conversation about how on earth Donald Trump managed to become President of the United States
1:21:51
let alone twice, without acknowledging that a huge part of his support
1:21:54
was completely insane. And now the communications, the new press, the new spokeswoman
1:22:00
actually is on the record subscribing to all this stuff. That's it
1:22:04
So, you know, immediately everything you previously said to me just went, well, that was all absolute nonsense
1:22:09
Wow, so it broke in a moment. It snapped in a moment, really. It was a proper penny drop, a proper penny drop
1:22:14
light bulb on. It was absolute nonsense, yeah. And you've, I mean, you don't argue now
1:22:19
because there's no point, but you're trying just to wean him off it, Take him somewhere nice where there's no signal
1:22:24
We gentle about it Yeah So we obviously don take anything he says on board because you know you can read their way in a second really But we
1:22:35
it's funny to get his wife's perspective more so than our perspective. Yes
1:22:39
We know where we sit and kind of, we can kind of gently push him
1:22:42
towards the right direction and hopefully over time he'll be something will trigger him
1:22:46
like it did me in the past and stuff. But with his wife
1:22:50
it's a bit different because she, when she first met him, My dad would talk to her about politics and military justice and complex
1:22:59
and she'd never heard any of these terms or anything about it. So she was quite fascinated by it
1:23:03
Same way any conspiracy theorist, I guess, gets drawn into it in the initial phase
1:23:07
She's not a conspiracy theorist in that sense, but she'll believe a lot of the things he says because he's, like I said
1:23:14
he's quite well-informed, well-experienced. He's not an idiot. Plausible. He's plausible. Yeah, and if you're only portraying your understanding of it
1:23:23
and your facts of it, then it all makes sense. It's logical in that regard
1:23:30
And he derives, I mean, Alex Jones, people not paying attention, well, not across it
1:23:36
as across it as I wish I wasn't, to be honest with you. He's the bloke who claimed that the Sandy Hook massacre was faked
1:23:43
and that all of the grieving parents were actors. And, I mean, he got sued into oblivion for that
1:23:48
But he came back as well during Trump's second term. and Farage used to be a regular on his programme
1:23:56
And so that is so bonkers, isn't it, that you can't really..
1:24:02
You either subscribe to it or you find it utterly ridiculous. It's not really a graph
1:24:06
It's more of a cliff edge, and you're either over it or you're not, and your dad is, and you somehow manage to climb back up again
1:24:12
I mean, the more I talk to people like you, Lewis, the more I understand why you have to try and keep the bridges open
1:24:20
but then I'll take a call from somebody who has reached their at the end of their tether and said I can't let my dad near my children anymore
1:24:27
and I have enormous sympathy for them as well I guess what I'm saying is that this is not a simple issue
1:24:34
but I mean you try your very very best until perhaps you realise it's not good enough
1:24:38
and I hope you and your brother never reach that point I really do the time now is 11.46 you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:24:45
James O'Brien on LBC 2.12 is the time. Sunday night, of course, for this ITV programme
1:24:54
which will contain wall-to-wall evidence of racism and other bigotries, most obviously misogyny
1:25:00
in the rank and file of Reform UK. And the question of whether or not that is, if you like, representative
1:25:06
whether or not there is a sort of secret, silent army of people supporting reform who are not drawn to the racism
1:25:14
and the bigotry has kept us busy for the best part of two hours and it will keep us busy for at least
1:25:20
a little longer, although I'm kind of tempted to move on to something else in the final hour. We'll make a decision
1:25:26
as we always do at the last possible moment. Matt's in Plymouth. Matt, what
1:25:30
made you pick up the phone? I picked up the phone a few months ago when you were saying about
1:25:36
reform being, reform supporters being racist. Yeah. Yeah, I just wanted to say that
1:25:43
we're not all racist. I was just talking to your researcher. She was saying about the comments on ITV and all that
1:25:52
about the illegal agents. The what? The illegal agents getting deported, sorry
1:26:01
Okay. The comments that the councillor was saying. Have you heard them
1:26:06
No, I haven't, actually. Okay. I've heard the other comments. Do you want to? um no
1:26:14
well I don't really mind I don't know how much time you've got
1:26:18
I'll take all the time you need I just wanted to put the point across that
1:26:24
it's not just like the legal aspect that I support the reform it's all the economy
1:26:33
sort of side with it how they want to like bring back in the fold
1:26:37
the energy the water but labels doing that at the moment uh
1:26:43
well with the with burn up yeah and and and starma and re-nationalizing water was quite
1:26:53
quite a big platform for them and and great british energy which starma set up was uh
1:26:58
designed to go down that path as well but you know farage is a big fan of privatization
1:27:03
historically, not nationalisation. Yeah, I know there's worries about him privatising the NHS. Well, not worries
1:27:11
He's said that he wants to. Yeah. I believe it to meet the NHS
1:27:17
bit better that you would have to privatise some aspects of the NHS
1:27:21
We already have. With what, sorry? I mean, some aspects of NHS
1:27:28
have been privatised already. I meant like the whole thing with the idea
1:27:38
that I had was with the NHS like with the national insurance
1:27:42
like what they've just come out with the social care yeah that's labour
1:27:48
yeah I know what's your favourite reform policy I like just the fact how they
1:28:00
want to diversisise the energy with nuclear. I do think that illegal immigrants
1:28:06
is a problem. But how Farage bases it is, that's the only, I said to your research
1:28:12
that's the gripe I have with it. You have to what? Gripe with it. The issue with reform
1:28:18
they think as soon as you solve the immigration problem, everything's going to get solved. They don't think that
1:28:25
Sorry? They don't think that. That's what they tell their supporters. They know that it's not true
1:28:30
because immigration numbers have never come down faster than they're coming down at the moment
1:28:34
And they still... Yeah, I think Labour's doing good at, yeah. And they still can't stop talking about it
1:28:41
Yeah, so that's what I was saying, that they think the immigration problem's going to solve everything
1:28:47
Yeah. Which I don't think it is. It's a big part of the problem
1:28:52
but solving just the immigration ain't going to solve everything. So that's why I like the other aspects of their policies
1:28:58
with bringing more nuclear and opening up the oil fields in Scotland
1:29:03
which Labour have said they didn't decide on it. OK. And, I mean, why do you think..
1:29:10
Because some people are really repulsed by all the racism, but you think you can probably live with it because of all the nuclear
1:29:19
But, I mean, any walk of life, you go down the pub and it's going to be... There's always going to be people going to say some comments
1:29:26
I said to your researcher... But you wouldn't vote for them, would you? Or in fact, I mean, to be fair
1:29:31
if that happens when I'm in the pub, then I don't just go along with it
1:29:35
I certainly would never join in. No, you wouldn't go along with it. What's the most racist thing you've heard in the pub recently
1:29:43
Well, you hear the N-word and everything. And what do you do when you hear that
1:29:51
You just brush it off. You just carry on. It's just... So you are comfortable with racism then
1:29:59
Um... You just brush it off and carry on. Well, if you do say something, I mean, it's usually like the people in the mask, they're just going to be like those sort of people
1:30:14
And you're like, oh, why would I want to say anything if you didn't get hurt
1:30:19
OK. um what do you think might tempt you to support a party that doesn't contain people like that
1:30:31
actually like come up with some decent ways to stole stuff i suppose like
1:30:39
my premises for that is like you go back to 2015 i think it was 2015 or 2012 when the
1:30:46
conservatives and Lib Dems are together. They're on about building a nuclear power
1:30:50
but the Lib Dems shot it down because it was not going to be built until
1:30:54
2026 or 2025. And look where we are now. Hand on heart, Matt
1:31:00
Nigel Farage becomes Prime Minister. He's got this army, this ragtag army of racists, bigots
1:31:06
and misogynists populating Parliament because the only candidates he's going to get are the same people that have currently tried
1:31:12
to become councillors. he's got 5 million quid and God knows how much else in his pockets
1:31:18
from private secret donations why do you think that bloke gave him 5 million quid
1:31:22
that cryptocurrency bloke that did put me off a bit I'll be honest
1:31:26
yeah like the n-word you could just brush it off and carry on
1:31:31
so do you honestly think looking at him and his record you think he's the man
1:31:38
to deliver an as yet unspecified nuclear revolution. And specified, sorry, he's come out..
1:31:48
Well, he hasn't provided the details. I mean, we don't know where he's going to build
1:31:53
plants, we don't know how he's going to build plants, we don't know where he's going to get the money to build the plants
1:31:57
but don't worry about that. We'll brush that off and move on. You think he's the man
1:32:01
to deliver on a major program of national infrastructure? I suppose I usually say if he's going to
1:32:11
do half the stuff that they say so it'd be 10 times better than what the Tories and the Labour
1:32:15
do. But we've not really identified anything he says apart from some
1:32:19
fairly vague hopes regarding energy and nuclear, at least 80% of which have already been
1:32:25
enacted by the current Labour government. So I'm just a little bit confused because some people
1:32:29
listening might think that it is the racism you like, you're just trying to think of other things to
1:32:35
say and some people listening, not me, might think that it it hasn't gone very well, that attempt
1:32:42
to describe all the other things that reform and stand for. Do you see what I mean
1:32:47
Yeah. I'll be honest, I'm a bit unpropelled. Yeah, I mean, just to
1:32:54
be clear, we didn't ring you. Yeah, I know, yeah. Phone in
1:33:00
But I just thought I'd like to just say... No, it was important
1:33:05
Exactly that. I mean, you know, because I think everybody who doesn't support reform
1:33:09
needs to hear from people who do and not just the private recordings of
1:33:16
racists, just people like you as well with the nuclear stuff Shall I play you a couple of clips before you go
1:33:22
just so that you know what the broader conversation was about This bloke is the deputy
1:33:28
mayor of Solihull So when a house comes up for sale, white people need to be in there
1:33:35
You almost need to out-muslim the Muslims you'd need a proper nuclear option like literally drag them at their home stick them on planes and
1:33:45
off to pakistan which you'll never do in a month of sundays i'd be saying no more than
1:33:51
one percent of british population can be non-white um and this bloke was canvassing
1:33:58
he's a councillor in bromley but he ended up in makerfield during the last by-election
1:34:03
we've been ethnically cleansed out of london because you never used to get any like facts
1:34:09
anyone over in bromley and now you know bromley like massive larger in communities there no just
1:34:17
like this it's like all the ethnic dips right they're not right you know they're not right
1:34:24
right this song to say it i'm not right now i'm not racist i mean i suppose the question i'd ask
1:34:32
you Matt is, are you sure you want to be on the same team as these characters? Well, I suppose of any alternative
1:34:40
party, sort of I suppose conservative... Don't say nuclear. Please don't say nuclear
1:34:46
I just want to know, do you want to be on the same team as these characters? Because that's just
1:34:50
the tip of the iceberg. I mean, what else do we go with, I
1:34:56
would say, because like you said, the Conservatives is just... And what do you think
1:35:00
attracts all these racists to Nigel Farage? I suppose he's got the same rhetoric as him, in a way
1:35:10
And there we are. So you do support a racist party. I suppose
1:35:21
they are a bit racist, but then... And you support them? Well, yeah, I would vote for them
1:35:32
I wouldn't say that would make me a racist. What does it make you
1:35:38
Well, I just want something better than what we've got at the minute, really. All right, mate. I understand that
1:35:44
I mean, just, you know, from me to you, it's not them, Matt
1:35:48
I promise you, it's not them. Have a great weekend. I have listened to you for a few months now, and you do make some decent points
1:35:57
You're very kind. So do you. So do you. And we'll keep listening to each other, all right
1:36:02
All right. You have a great weekend. Seriously. I can call James, you too
1:36:07
Yep, they're not the answer. I promise you that. It's 12.01. James O'Brien on LBC
1:36:12
Four minutes after 12 is the time, you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:36:17
I'm beginning to wonder whether education is the new area for me
1:36:23
It's the new obesity. It's the new area where I am most in need
1:36:27
of having a little bit of a rethink and a little bit of a review of some of my opinions. And I will
1:36:32
do, and I will continue to do so, usually with your help. But I think I'm right today when we
1:36:39
turn our attention next to the Education Secretary's announcement that the ability to articulate
1:36:45
yourself clearly should be assessed as part of GCSE exams. It's a word I was only relatively
1:36:51
recently introduced to this. It's not oratory, it's oralcy. Is it oralcy or oracy
1:36:57
So I told you I'd only relatively recently been introduced to it. It's oracy, isn't it
1:37:02
It's got the same root as oral, which comes from the Latin word aura, O-R-A, I think, meaning mouth
1:37:10
If you have any idea how much it cost my parents, so that I could say with a modicum of confidence what the Latin derivation of a word is
1:37:19
And it's Lucy Powell who has gone for it. and the importance of being able to articulate yourself Now this may sound a little bit mealy on my part but I don necessarily want to get bogged down in the detail of the policy because
1:37:35
I don't think that we've actually got it yet. It's a central thrust. Talking to the Confederation
1:37:40
of School Trust, she said, both in content and in assessment, speaking, listening and communicating
1:37:45
will be a core part of every child's education from primary to GCSE and beyond. And I've been
1:37:52
thinking about this now for a couple of days because i well first of all let's have a look
1:37:59
at what the daily mail has to say the daily mail has gone even more bonkers than usual um dumb and
1:38:04
dumber education secretary told children will be the losers as she says speaking skills will be as
1:38:10
important as reading and writing in new plans for gcse so the daily mail are furious at the idea
1:38:17
that children and some adults need help talking. We need to pay a little bit more attention
1:38:25
to helping people explain themselves. I've just had a terrible realisation. Have you had the same realisation that I've just had
1:38:35
Now, this is like that time I nearly did a phone-in about people who haven't got phones. I can't do a phone-in about..
1:38:40
Give me a ring now if you can't articulate yourself or you can't articulate full stop
1:38:46
That's not going to work at all, is it? Give me a ring now if you're really bad at communicating
1:38:51
Don't worry, we'll be okay. But I think that simple point there, I mean, this is phone-in radio
1:38:57
Think about the difference between a caller who is brilliant at articulating themselves
1:39:00
and explaining themselves and putting their positions forward, and a caller who isn't
1:39:06
And then have a think about what their life chances might involve, what their life chances might contain
1:39:12
How can anybody object to the idea that in 2026, the way that you can explain yourself in spoken word is incredibly important, more important perhaps than ever
1:39:37
More important perhaps than ever. Why do I say that? Well, this is what I've been thinking about loads
1:39:43
So there's two phone-ins here. One is going to be experience-based, and the other is going to be a little bit of social commentary
1:39:49
We're going to be looking at this together because you know I love the written word
1:39:54
but I also love the spoken word, as you've probably gathered over however long a period of time
1:40:00
you've spent listening to me. And because of my education, I understand where the Daily Mail is coming from, by the way
1:40:08
It's frightened men desperately trying to protect the only world they know
1:40:13
And of course, they are newspaper journalists. So the idea that talking is somehow as important or more important than writing is terrifying to them
1:40:22
But, you know, hands up now if you send voice notes instead of texting
1:40:28
Do you send voice notes instead of texting? You do, Keith, don't you
1:40:32
Send voice notes instead of texting? Not to me because I don't read them
1:40:36
I don't know why. I've got a real problem with voice notes. I just sort of can't quite get into the habit of it. But I appreciate that people do it. First of all, we complained about text speak, didn't we, LOL? And then we moved on to voice notes
1:40:52
the internet now is is the forefront of media new media and the ability to write has absolutely
1:41:05
nothing to do with the ability to communicate in most of the modern forms it's extraordinary when
1:41:11
you think about it that anybody could object to this what is in 2026 what is more important
1:41:18
being able to express yourself in print or being able to express yourself in person
1:41:24
now one problem is of course that if you can't express yourself in person then you will never
1:41:29
be able to express yourself in print unless you are cripplingly shy people who literally write
1:41:35
beautifully but just sort of their palms start sweating and their head fills with noise at the
1:41:41
very thought of speaking publicly. So we may move into that territory a little later. But
1:41:49
there's a phone in here about what it's like to not be able to talk well. But I realised a little
1:42:06
bit too late, that that is quite an odd subject for a radio phone-in to be about
1:42:12
Can I, should we just do it? Should we just open up the phone lines and see what happens on this one
1:42:17
Otherwise, I've easily got 60 minutes of original material on this, so Keith, calm
1:42:22
down, mate. Someone will ring in. But can you do a phone-in on the subject of not being very good at phoning radio stations
1:42:28
and not being very good at talking? It's really interesting, isn't it
1:42:32
So how can anybody object? And as I said, the detail matters, but the principle, the fundamental principle, the spoken language, which is already taught on the curriculum, but I would suggest is not necessarily taught well enough, should be at least as important as writing
1:42:59
Who could possibly object to that? and then the tricky bit of the phone in on this one and and teachers as well can tell me what
1:43:07
this is about um the the simple idea that we should now as a society as a country as a community as a
1:43:14
population we should be putting as much effort into teaching children how to talk better
1:43:18
as we put into teaching them how to write should we just do that then what's more important in
1:43:26
2026 being able to write well or being able to talk well oh three four five six oh six oh nine
1:43:31
seven three because i i mean i just do you want a little world exclusive did i tell you i just
1:43:36
signed a new book deal i haven't actually inked it yet but i think it's going to be the the kind
1:43:40
of broadened out version of how they broke britain so look looking at the whole of the western world
1:43:45
any ideas of what i should include would be would be very very welcome i've got about 80 percent of
1:43:50
it mapped out in my brain. But I am 52, 48. I absolutely love the idea of, what's Eleanor
1:43:59
writing on the screen? Did you check with your publisher that you're allowed to just
1:44:03
come on the radio and announce stuff like that? No. Do you think I should have done
1:44:08
Why? But these are my people. This is my family. I'm telling my, I'm telling my, I'm telling
1:44:15
the, no, they could still put out a press release. I mean, there's not, I haven't signed
1:44:19
it yet but I want you to know first I don't want it to be announced to the whole
1:44:23
world I want to tell people who tune into the program on a regular basis before I tell anybody else
1:44:27
that I no longer want you to take me out and shoot me if I announce
1:44:31
on the radio that I'm writing another book that was so 2022 honestly
1:44:36
or 2023 so I love writing 48% probably and I love talking 52
1:44:45
I'm going to find it really hard to decide what's more important. No, I'm not
1:44:52
Talking's more important than writing. And this breaks my heart in a way because I love reading as you know I love books I love the written word I the son of a newspaper journalist But I think being able to talk well is more important
1:45:05
I don't think it's either or, God forbid, because every time we talk about prisons
1:45:08
we get absolutely ambushed by the revelation about literacy levels in prisons
1:45:16
Anybody serious about reducing re-offending and therefore avoiding the necessity of early release
1:45:22
in the absence of new prisons being miraculously conjured up overnight should be putting absolutely all political energy and and funding into literacy
1:45:31
education in prisons seriously under my glorious rule that would be the top priority as sending
1:45:37
like hip squads crack squads how long would it take to take to take a barely literate adult
1:45:42
and turn them into someone that has functional literacy skills because if you release if they
1:45:47
go into prison barely literate and they leave prison functionally literate i would estimate
1:45:52
that the likelihood of them coming back to prison anytime soon is at least halved
1:45:57
So, of course, reading and writing, or writing in particular, is desperately important
1:46:02
But talking is more important, right? When's the last time you did a job interview on paper
1:46:10
When is, ah, then we've got the right on the internet. I think this would be quite interesting
1:46:16
So that's question number one. I'm not having a phone-in about whether or not it's arrogant of me
1:46:20
to refuse to listen to voice notes. I did get one off a very famous person the other day
1:46:24
and I listened to that one, but I didn't reply. I want to know what we think is more important and why
1:46:30
In 2026, being able to speak well or being able to write well
1:46:35
And this is the tricky one, and I'm nothing if not optimistic
1:46:40
Can you tell me what it's like to not be good at talking
1:46:47
03456060973. what are the odds on this one flying the phone lines are full now i hate it when that happens
1:46:54
i need some i need a couple of lines on my switchboard for people to ring me who don't
1:46:59
think they're very good at talk is that gonna work am i sounding bonkers now is this give me
1:47:04
a ring if you haven't got a phone part two except this time i didn't stop myself from doing it in
1:47:08
the nick of time and i've gone not quite all in but i've gone in on what's it because this is a bit
1:47:13
like david and you look will you allow me a little moment of arrogance would that be okay
1:47:18
I know what you're thinking. A little moment, James. We get three hours a day, Monday to Friday on LBC
1:47:22
plus the Full Disclosure podcast. Actually, I'm quite modest on the Full Disclosure podcast
1:47:27
he says, modestly. But would you allow me a little moment of conceit
1:47:31
I'm quite good at talking. Right? Can we all agree about that at least
1:47:35
I'm quite good. Thank you, Keith. Thank you, Keith. So this is a little bit like, reluctantly, my colleagues agree
1:47:43
I am quite good at talking. so I've got no idea what it would be like to not be good at talking
1:47:49
Every stage of my life being good at talking has been really important
1:47:52
It gets me into trouble, of course it does, but it gets me out of trouble as well
1:47:57
It allows me to mask the fact that I haven't done any homework. On one occasion, when I was about ten
1:48:02
I stood up in class to read out an essay I hadn't written
1:48:05
and I got away with it. You believe that, right? I literally wrote the essay in my head as I was standing up
1:48:13
wasn't very long only about a page and a half but that is a sign of being quite good at talking
1:48:17
okay my career in case you hadn't noticed is talking but it is just one of those things
1:48:23
that i you know that i have it's a faculty it's a bit like asking why other people aren't very
1:48:30
good at taking free kicks if you're david beckham so david beckham does a radio phone in about how
1:48:35
i mean what's it like not to be very good at taking free kicks what's it like not to be take
1:48:41
but I have no idea what it would be like not to be good at talking
1:48:45
but I don't know if you can tell me because you would have to talk
1:48:49
are you good enough at talking to tell me what it's like
1:48:55
to be not very good at talking this has all gone a little bit surreal hasn't it
1:48:58
you can tell it's Friday give me a ring and tell me what it's like
1:49:04
to be bad at talking but you're so bad at talking I won't be able to understand
1:49:10
what it's like to be bad at talking because you're not very good at talking. We might have to confine ourselves to the question
1:49:16
of what's more important, talking or writing, but I want to reserve special love
1:49:20
Maybe you used to be really bad at talking and now you're really good. What was it like, got there in the end, Keith
1:49:25
what was it like to not be good at talking? Imagine being terrified of talking
1:49:32
Imagine, I mean, for some people, and you hear it on the phones, people are proper nervous when they ring in
1:49:37
quick shout out to Tracy who I met in Walsamstow the other night
1:49:42
and I was saying, well how can you be nervous? and she goes, I know what you're going to say, you're going to say it's only me
1:49:46
I said, but it is only me, how can you be nervous? but people get really nervous at the thought of phoning in
1:49:51
imagine if you're a bit nervous at the thought of phoning in give me a ring now if you're too nervous to phone in
1:49:57
there we go, we've got the hat trick give me a ring if you haven't got a phone give me a ring and tell me what it's like to be rubbish at talking
1:50:01
and give me a ring now if you're too nervous to give me a ring the three phone-ins
1:50:05
the holy grail of impossible phone-ins. We've done it. We've done it
1:50:10
But imagine doing what I do for a living. So if you're nervous of ringing in
1:50:14
imagine what you would feel like if you came in on a studio tour
1:50:18
Be like one of those Ant and Dec things, wouldn't it? You came in on a studio tour
1:50:22
and I said, oh, hang on a minute, I'm just popping to the loo. And then you're sitting in my chair
1:50:26
to have a little selfie taken, and the light comes on, and Keith says in your ear, I'm really sorry, you're going to have to talk
1:50:32
What would you do? hello hello um you're listening to lbc some people would be absolutely terrified by that i'm the kind
1:50:47
of guy i go to a wedding with people i don't know that well because they're friends of mrs o'brien
1:50:51
i get a little bit annoyed that i don't get to make a speech later in the day i sit there thinking
1:50:56
this i know he's the bride's dad but good lord he's dull i've got five minutes i could give you
1:51:01
five minutes of material and I speak to professional comedians who feel exactly the same
1:51:05
sometimes, but what's it like to be really bad at talking or to be terrified? We can do
1:51:11
terrified, no, we can't do terrified at talking because you'd be too terrified to call me
1:51:16
Shall I, give me a ring now if you don't have a radio. Okay? Give me a ring now if you've
1:51:21
never listened to the radio. Shall I stop talking now and see what
1:51:25
happens for the final 40 minutes of the programme? Yeah? Ah, I'm game
1:51:29
if you are. James O'Brien on LBC Andy Burnham's giving a speech at the moment
1:51:34
I know what you're thinking oh can't we listen to that instead and he's quite a good speaker
1:51:40
but if you listen to his audio book that he did with Steve Rotherham
1:51:43
his bits are absolutely awful it's completely different he can't do it
1:51:47
it's just a really interesting thing isn't it and I massively welcome
1:51:52
attempts to teach children more how to speak the importance of being able to communicate well
1:51:58
vocally, orally, rather than simply in print. But anyway, there's a phone in here
1:52:03
somewhere. I don't know where it is. Let's see if you do. Chloe's in Berkhamstead. Chloe, what
1:52:07
would you like to say? Hi, James. I thought I'd do you a solid
1:52:11
I'm someone who's not very good at speaking out loud. You're doing alright so far, mate
1:52:17
I'm really, really nervous, honestly. It's like chit-chat, anything important. If I having to debate someone I just kind of freeze up and feel like I can articulate myself I guess it like a confidence in Is it And it always been there
1:52:36
I would say so, yeah. It's definitely something as an adult I've become more aware of
1:52:41
Like, I read a lot, I can write my thoughts down, but I can't say them out loud
1:52:47
But people listening to this now, and I'm not being sort of silly
1:52:52
people listening to this now won't believe you. Maybe. Yeah, I guess that's something I hear
1:52:58
It must be a personal opinion thing. I don't know. It could be a confidence thing
1:53:02
And you're actually a lot better than you think you are. Like me and dancing. You might be right
1:53:06
I wish I'd done debate at school. I think that teaching that in all schools would be super valuable
1:53:12
Yes. I mean, debate is kind of like gear five, really, of Oracy
1:53:17
I mean, I'm thinking more about the kids in class who would be nervous
1:53:23
A, of reading out loud, and that can often be dyslexia. That, of course, now does get caught and addressed a lot more
1:53:30
But the kids who dread being asked a question because they're frightened of answering it publicly
1:53:36
That was me. Yeah, for sure. That's me and my daughter. A complete anxiety
1:53:41
Your daughter as well. I think you're describing anxiety to me rather than a lack of articulacy, you know
1:53:47
You might be right. So that's where you should get help for your little girl and for yourself
1:53:53
as well, just deal with the anxiety side of it and you'll be... There was a
1:53:57
kid at my school who had a really bad stutter. Right. And the headmaster used
1:54:01
to get him to sing. And if he sang, and this is probably terrible
1:54:05
I don't know, I haven't kept up to date with the latest developments, but if he sang, he was completely
1:54:09
fluent. So that was an anxiety... Exactly what I did. Are you joking
1:54:13
Seriously? It does help. Yeah, it's funny. And briefly, how do you think it's held you back
1:54:19
what you're describing? I think when it comes... More recently, I've seen it manifest in more important topics
1:54:27
whether it's around speaking to friends about Palestine or like sort of global events
1:54:31
And people who are really good at debating will shut me down very quickly, so I can't get my opinion across
1:54:37
Well, that is frustrating. Yeah, it is. That's really frustrating. I guess practice makes perfect
1:54:42
I don't want to patronize. I don't want to patronize. It's language, isn't it? It is language
1:54:46
But, I mean, you've just come on national radio. I don't want to frighten you, but I'm sure you realize, you know
1:54:51
This has got an enormous audience, this show, the biggest in the history of UK commercial radio
1:54:55
for now at least, although we're all conscious of gravity. And you've absolutely smashed it
1:55:00
You've done brilliantly well. So hopefully that could be a little building block or a brick in the wall of increased confidence
1:55:06
And you've given us a topic, Chloe. I told you there was a phone in here somewhere
1:55:11
Not only did you have the confidence to ring into the show, you had the confidence to ring into a show
1:55:14
that actually hasn't really got a topic running through it. And you've given us a topic
1:55:19
which is how do you know the difference between confidence and articulacy. Where does confidence end and articulacy begin
1:55:25
You know? I don't think I lack either. I can't lie. But I couldn't tell you what I would sound like
1:55:31
if I was confident and not articulate. There's a reason why we get politicians
1:55:37
to do my holiday cover. There is a presumption that they will be confident
1:55:41
and articulate enough to do what many other people, normal people, we might say, would be terrified of
1:55:48
Sam's in New Milton. Sam, what would you like to say? Hello, James. Am I on
1:55:53
Wow. Yes, mate. Yeah, yeah. First time caller, long time listener. Welcome
1:55:59
And, yeah, just, yeah, I'm not very good at talking, as you can tell
1:56:05
It's just like... Thank you. Can I just say, I know I should... Thank you for calling in, because that's an incredible thing that you've done
1:56:13
Thank you, yeah. It's your fault, this. you've made me bring in because I'm like, oh, I'm awful
1:56:20
So, yeah. It's just the fear. I don't know. I can't explain it
1:56:25
You just have explained it. Am I on speaker? This is so annoying for you
1:56:32
Yeah, I am. Do I get rid of that? Take me off speaker. Take me off speaker
1:56:36
Let's do that. So I can hear you more clearly in my ear. And everyone else can hear you as well
1:56:41
Describe the fear to me. Where is the fear and what does it look like or feel like
1:56:45
deep deep within you know in the stomach in the pits of somewhere and where did it begin when can
1:56:53
you first remember having it school yeah school when uh primary school um i had a teacher he was
1:56:59
a brilliant teacher but he was like right we're going to do impressions um and he was like do an
1:57:04
impression of me and i was like in my head i was like thinking yeah okay okay i've got this i've got
1:57:09
stood up, everyone's looking at me, staring, and I just froze and was like..
1:57:14
I don't know. And that's it? You think that's where it began
1:57:19
Because until that point, you were confident enough to stand up and go first or to dive in on it
1:57:24
and then something happened. It's like a rabbit caught in the headlights, literally
1:57:29
Yes. And from then on, there's just anything. It was a role-play, a group thing
1:57:35
Like, oh, horrible. And yet here you are. And here I am
1:57:39
it's a turning point, James. You're bouncing a ball around the court
1:57:43
You're about to slot it into the basket. How do you think it might have held you back in life
1:57:47
I mean, in what moments have you really wished that you could do it better
1:57:52
I think just like, even at college as well, you present something or you
1:57:56
write part of an essay and you have to sort of explain it. I wish I was good at that
1:58:01
because that would just, I don't know. Make life a little bit easier
1:58:05
Make life a little bit easier. And have you ever tried to be better at it? Or have you just sort of made decisions based upon avoiding those kind of scenarios
1:58:12
I think I have. I think I have. I've sort of chosen a path to deliberately dodge all that stuff
1:58:17
You wouldn't have rung me today if you didn't know deep in your bones that this was a reversible condition
1:58:22
Yeah. Would you? You wouldn't have done. How are we going to reverse it? How are we going to reverse it
1:58:26
I don't know. I'm not going to give you. I'll give you some exercise. I'll ring in again. I'll give you some exercise
1:58:30
Yeah. Why don't you ring in again? Okay. Seriously. We'll keep an eye on it
1:58:34
And then we can track how much easier it gets and how much easier you find it
1:58:38
How are you feeling now on a scale of 1 to 10? I've calmed down a little bit
1:58:42
You see? So, hey, this is the start of something. Maybe, I don't know
1:58:47
And I think, I mean, we both think it's really important. The ability to communicate verbally with people is absolutely huge
1:58:55
I've got a clip I was going to play. Can we play it before? Stay, is this, is it just
1:59:01
Oh, okay. I just thought that I might have an example of how inarticulate you can be
1:59:06
and where you can end up in the world. and I was going to play you a little clip of the new White House press secretary
1:59:11
but you've probably heard it already. Any time you're feeling a bit insecure or anxious about your articulacy skills
1:59:18
have a listen to the new White House press secretary. Whatever the opposite of imposter syndrome is
1:59:24
that's what we need a little bit of. But you've done brilliantly, Sam, and we will talk again soon, I hope
1:59:30
Mind how you go. Half past 12 is the time. And this clip that we've got of Katie Zakaria
1:59:34
I mean it's almost as if somebody took Donald Trump's new press secretary to one side and said
1:59:41
James O'Brien I don't know if you've heard of this bloke on British radio he's an absolute
1:59:46
menace he's the worst kind of liberal um a gob on a stick he's a hideous person far left that's
1:59:54
what they'd call me wouldn't they if you are far left don't message me to tell me how I'm not far
1:59:59
left I know I'm not far left I'm not far left I'm not far left I'm not far left I'm not far left I'm far left, but right wing idiots think I am far
2:00:02
left. And so they say to Katie Zakaria, he's always going on about this and that and the other
2:00:07
We need you to make a clip that is tailor made to get onto his
2:00:11
programme. And guess what? She has done. And I'll share it with you after the very latest headlines with
2:00:17
Amelia Cox. James O'Brien on LBC. So what could the White House press secretary
2:00:23
possibly say that would possibly raise or make you think that She was doing it deliberately to provide me with some material
2:00:32
Here she is, Katie Zakaria. How did you feel it went personally
2:00:38
Well, Sean, I want to give some background, and it's nice to be on here with you and such a privilege to serve as President Trump's new press secretary
2:00:45
What I feel is I really stepped up and to the plate to do the press conference
2:00:50
Sean, with very little prep time, I received briefing materials in the morning of Tuesday
2:00:56
and I went to deliver all of the great results that President Trump is delivering for the American people
2:01:03
I took several questions and I think it's been mixed, Sean, because they've said I only took questions from conservative outlets
2:01:11
However, the Daily Mail is not known to be a conservative outlet
2:01:14
or friendly to conservatives, so I do challenge that narrative. I hadn't actually heard that. I'd only read the headline on it
2:01:25
You know, in a way, she's right. Compared, as Simon Marks would frequently remind us
2:01:31
compared to the propaganda networks, the far-right propaganda networks that now get pretty much the only passes
2:01:38
into the press briefings. The Daily Mail looks a little bit like
2:01:42
I don't know, das Kapital. But there is... I mean, we laugh
2:01:47
We shouldn't laugh, should we? Because it's the death of another... It's the death of another guardrail against fascism
2:01:54
accusing the Daily Mail of not being right-wing. I mean, for a start, everyone at the Daily Mail is going to be furious
2:02:01
How dare she say we're not right-wing? For goodness sake, what more do we have to do? We were pro-Hitler back in the day
2:02:07
We were in favour of Oswald Mosley and the Blackshirts. And we've got columnists who think Nigel Farage is the answer to the country's problems
2:02:13
and Richard Littlejohn wants Donald Trump to run this country. How can you call us not right-wing
2:02:19
That's sensational. Can we just have the punchline again? I might play this 463 times between now and Christmas
2:02:27
They've said I only took questions from conservative outlets. However, the Daily Mail is not known to be a conservative outlet or friendly to conservatives
2:02:36
So I do challenge that narrative. Listen, just to highlight the point and indeed the point I made a moment ago about the kind of mincemeat you'd have to have between your ears to think that I was far left
2:02:50
Here is a Daily Mail columnist today. Indeed, it is Richard Littlejohn writing about how he can't possibly be racist
2:02:57
because he's got Pakistani neighbours and sometimes goes to a kebab shop in Cockfosters
2:03:02
Hey, you know, what else are you going to write about in the week that Donald Trump has abandoned Ukraine
2:03:07
and Nigel Farage's party has been revealed to be riddled with racists? You're certainly not going to write about any of that
2:03:12
But here it is. Despite what The Guardian and posturing far-left liars like LBC's rent-a-gob posh boy Jim O'Brien would have you believe, I've always been in favour of migration
2:03:23
Of course you have, Dick. You file your columns from Florida, mate. You couldn't do that if you were a patriotic Brit based in this country
2:03:31
So just by way of illustration, poor fella's forgotten that he's supposed to claim he doesn't listen to this show
2:03:38
Oh, dear. There it is. Once more, I think, Keith, with feeling
2:03:43
the short one they've said i only took questions from conservative outlets however the daily mail
2:03:51
is not known to be a conservative outlet or friendly to conservatives so i do challenge
2:03:56
that narrative um i was wondering a moment ago what great confidence with no articulacy sounded
2:04:03
like wasn't i i don't know why i mentioned that just just apropos nothing in particular to having
2:04:09
the opposite of imposter syndrome, that you might call Baden-Ock syndrome. Enormous confidence
2:04:15
but nothing really to back it up. Jo is in Boreham Wood
2:04:21
Jo, what would you like to say? James, hi. Thank you so much for taking my call
2:04:26
You're very welcome. I feel like you have created the phone-in for me
2:04:30
and I'm so grateful that I'm actually able to call in. I mean, my heart's been pounding the whole time I've been on hold
2:04:36
It's only me. that's what i'm telling myself that's what i'm telling myself um so i mean i am in absolute awe
2:04:44
of people that are um that can articulate themselves clearly um use all the good words
2:04:50
um and just sound really on point um and for that reason i've actually been listening to lbc for the
2:04:58
last 10 years i listen probably to everybody even the ones who've used don't mention any names
2:05:05
it's just embarrassing absolutely not no absolutely not i mean i value everybody's
2:05:09
input to be honest it's good to have views from all sides and sometimes i really want to call in
2:05:14
and challenge some of those views but i feel like i don't have the confidence for a debate quite to
2:05:21
that level even though all the ideas and words are in my brain and they exist i i feel them i see
2:05:27
them i can get them out of my mouth yeah and the more the more adrenalized you are so the more you got your kind of heart in your mouth the harder it becomes Because you doing quite brilliantly now And I not patronizing you or exaggerating
2:05:42
You are doing brilliantly now. You sound calm. You sound collected. I've been deep breathing for the last 20 years
2:05:48
But if you'd rung in to tell me that I'm a disgrace and that, you know
2:05:52
I am a, hang on, let's get it back out again, a far left rent-a-gob
2:05:58
uh but far left liar rent-a-gob posh boy then your emotions would be running a tiny little bit
2:06:06
higher and you would struggle to get the words out i would i made i may just burst into tears
2:06:10
actually to do something like that so that's why i don't bother i mean english is not my first
2:06:14
language my parents um spoke to me in italian from day dot and we went to italy spent lots of
2:06:21
time there before pre-before school age so when i came back i didn't speak a word of english and
2:06:26
know so you need to school and I think that was quite a lot of trauma for me because so you turned
2:06:31
up at school on your first day and you couldn't speak and isn't that interesting that both of you
2:06:37
was it I think the last caller was Steve the um memory he had of thinking he was going to stand
2:06:43
up and start doing an impression of someone and it was all go fine and then suddenly it was like
2:06:47
ah and he can trace it back to there and you're tracing it back as well to something that happened
2:06:51
really early on that broke something inside you. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I think it did really hurt me
2:06:57
I was 10 years old, so you can imagine by that point, you know, my language should have been, you know
2:07:03
a certain level, and it really wasn't. And I just remember absolute fear when it came to having to read out in class
2:07:08
all the way through school. Not fair, is it? Do you still have fluent Italian
2:07:13
Are you still fluent in Italian? Yeah, I mean, thankfully I am. It's not amazing
2:07:17
I mean, it's been a long time, but I speak it all the time. And in fact, I was so traumatized by not being able to speak English on my first day of school that when my children were born, my husband, their dad wanted me to speak to them in Italian
2:07:30
And I absolutely refused. I said, no, these kids are going to have the best English they can possibly have
2:07:36
And now at age 26 and 22, they have been telling me for the last 10 years how upset they are that they don't have a second language
2:07:44
That's how much it affected us. That's an incredible thing, isn't it
2:07:49
They almost feel that your trauma, and I would call it trauma
2:07:54
I can't imagine. It is. No, it is. Yeah, your trauma has deprived them of their birthright, in a way. Absolutely
2:07:58
Because they should be bilingual. They should be bilingual. Yeah, they should be bilingual. And I kick myself every single day
2:08:04
Well, tell the lazy so-and-sos. It's never too late. They probably do classes at the embassy, for heaven's sake
2:08:09
Stop moaning and get on with it. I bet they are. They are trying. Yeah, they are. They're desperate
2:08:13
They're desperate to speak Italian. And I feel terrible for that. But at the time, I just wanted them to go in, being the kids that can speak the best English
2:08:20
So I didn't stop talking to them. What could school have done differently
2:08:27
Because I don't think anybody really contributing to this conversation is going to think
2:08:31
oh, no, this is terrible. How dare they be putting more effort into helping people? School could have helped, right
2:08:37
School, I think, did their best, to be honest with you. What can you do? It was good with 80s
2:08:41
I think it's more down to my parents. my mum spoke fluent English
2:08:47
She had been here since the age of 12. There was no excuse, really. I think they were just lazy
2:08:54
Sorry, mum, if you're listening. We've gone from, oh, I'm too nervous to ring in
2:08:58
to I'm just going to slag my mum off in front of her. I forget people can hear me, James
2:09:03
I just think I'm talking to you. I just want to say, I actually listen to you
2:09:08
and everybody else speak. And one of the reasons is not just to, you know
2:09:12
keep abreast of what's going on but it's actually to learn so i was saying to your producers that
2:09:18
when you do your monologue honestly i love it i just sit there and think wow if only i could do
2:09:23
something like that well you just did i actually have learned a lot listening to all of you guys
2:09:28
and that's well what you're learning really is just it's just a that it's possible and b that a
2:09:33
lot of it is confidence you can't be what you can't see or in your case you can't you can't be
2:09:37
what you can't hear and now you're hearing it so so so you're doing it but this is in your second
2:09:41
language effectively a contribution that if people didn't know what the topic under discussion was
2:09:48
they would not in a million years have been able to guess this is a phone in um for people who don't
2:09:53
think they're very good at talking and they'd be like well what the heck is joe doing on it then uh yeah but i mean it's just it's a skill i can't even say the word that you said earlier
2:10:03
oracy what is it no i did it wrong as well though you see i got it wrong as well but i just keep
2:10:08
Ploughing blithely on without looking in the rearview mirror. Oracy. Oracy, I think
2:10:13
There we go. Another lesson. Monday's monologue, Jo. That's for you, all right
2:10:18
Thank you. Thank you so much, James. The first ever dedication that I think we've done
2:10:23
I hope it's a nice subject. It's coming up to quarter to one. You're listening to James O'Brien and Jo on LBC
2:10:30
only one of whom is speaking in their first language. James O'Brien on LBC
2:10:36
14.47 is the time. Jonathan's up north. That's his description, not mine
2:10:39
Hi, James, he writes, I must have misheard your request. It took me 20 minutes to set this one up, Jonathan
2:10:44
so there's no excuse for not having... I know, you're being sarcastic. You must have asked for very articulate
2:10:49
and not noticeably nervous talkers to call in. I know what you mean, but that's where we've gone
2:10:55
That's what's turned out to be one of the most fascinating things about this issue, is that we don't know where anxiety stops
2:11:01
and articulacy begins, or vice versa. and you could, just based upon a very unscientific sample
2:11:07
conclude that people who don think they very good at talking publicly are actually a lot better at it than they have given themselves credit for That part of the issue And if you do it in school more oracy in school
2:11:20
then more confidence. And more confidence, more comfort. More comfort, more conversation
2:11:26
And unlike Elvis Presley, I think we need a little more conversation, baby
2:11:31
Adrian's in Lyme, Regis. Adrian, what would you like to say? Hi, James
2:11:35
I'm not the best speaker at all, even, you know, not going on with you, getting nervous about coming on
2:11:46
Why are you nervous? No, don't tell me why you're nervous. Tell me what nervousness feels like
2:11:52
It feels like, I think some of the other colleagues have said, you get a hot feeling in your stomach, your nostrils flare
2:12:01
you feel hot, dry throat, and then you start nervous chuckling. Where is it now
2:12:08
Where is the nervousness now? All of that, I think. My nostrils are flying, if you could see
2:12:14
Does your mouth water? No, it goes dry. Does it? Because I do the gulp sometimes
2:12:20
And obviously, I'm not going to take you by surprise here, Adrian. It doesn't happen to me very often
2:12:26
I've been listening to you for a while, and yeah, I don't notice it. But when it does, I think, you know, if I'm doing like a eulogy at a funeral or something like that
2:12:35
and I just can't carry on sometimes, there's a swallow that comes in, it kicks in
2:12:40
and I just like, oh, I can't do this anymore. And you catch yourself doing a weird swallow, but that might be a dry mouth as well
2:12:47
Yeah, I've also got a nervous spasm sometimes. It flicks on my lips when I'm trying to speak as well
2:12:52
It just doesn't help. Well, it's chicken and egg, isn't it? I mean, if you weren't nervous, then you wouldn't have the spasm
2:12:58
Do we know where it started? Where do we think it started? It could have been, I was born in Yorkshire
2:13:04
but then moved to Essex very young. So I was in a school in Essex with a Yorkshire accent
2:13:10
No one could understand me. And they would pick up on that, kids being kids. And then by the time I got the Essex accent, we moved to Oxford
2:13:17
and that changed me again. And then a couple of years later, we progressed back to Yorkshire
2:13:24
And I'm living in the South Coast. So you were, in your formative years
2:13:29
you were constantly a little bit frightened of opening your mouth. Yeah, and I think that's where it went back to
2:13:36
If I'm in groups of people, I'm usually the quiet one at the back
2:13:41
who's listening to the conversation, might have things to add, but if it's a group more than three or four people
2:13:47
I'd probably be the quieter one. Is it frustrating? Luckily, I married to my wife
2:13:52
I mean, all of my wife sometimes, the way she can speak. and she's so natural
2:13:57
Yeah. But then I sit back and then... Does it frustrate you
2:14:01
No, I don't mind that because I don't like being put in that situation. No, good. I don't want it to
2:14:06
Like I say, I've got to... What I do as a job
2:14:10
I get put in front of a lot of people quite a lot of the time and do interviews and things
2:14:14
and get put on the spot. I've got to try and take a breath
2:14:20
and do what I need to do to get my points across. What do you do for a living
2:14:25
I'm an author. So you're quite good with words then? Yeah, written words, I'm good at that
2:14:32
But yeah. Can I tell people who you are? Yes. You're A.C. Salter, one of the top fantasy writers
2:14:41
Yeah. And therefore you will be going to schools and places like that to talk to children about the Bane of the North
2:14:49
and your other series. That's correct. When you're writing, do you hear a voice in your head
2:14:57
Do you hear your characters' voices when you're writing? Yeah, kind of
2:15:02
I won't say the characters' voices. What do you hear in your head when you're writing? At the keyboard, I'm more of a..
2:15:08
I feel like a director would sit in a director's seat watching the characters ahead of them
2:15:13
and write this scene, what you see is unfolding that way, and that's how I seem to do it
2:15:19
That's incredible. You know, getting the characters out. So your imagination is absolutely on fire when you're in the zone
2:15:25
See, I really envy you that. Oh, thank you. You get lost in those moments, right
2:15:30
Yeah, I can envy you. I pass five, six o'clock in the morning sometimes, and my wife touches me on the shoulder in the afternoon
2:15:36
and says, you realise what time it is? I'm gone. Yeah, once I start writing, I get lost
2:15:42
It swings and roundabouts, and I'd trade you. I'd trade you 20% of being able to talk for 20
2:15:48
of how you can get knuckled down at a desk. Yeah, we'll definitely swap
2:15:51
Yeah, like I say, when I do, like, interviews, or I do live interviews sometimes
2:15:56
and I've got to take a breath, stick some X army, so I'll go back to the box breathing
2:16:02
Yes. And that helps. But then sometimes when I've got to record videos
2:16:09
for my social media, I do videos to obviously promote and stuff
2:16:14
It could take me 30 or 40 takes just to do, like, 10 or 20 seconds
2:16:19
and either my nostrils are flaring, my throat's gone dry, it's all over the place
2:16:24
It's crazy, isn't it? I mean, I don't know what the trick is, really
2:16:30
It's as if thinking about it becomes it, right? I think that's what it is
2:16:36
You overthink it, and then that causes the problems. And yet, when you're sitting down writing it
2:16:42
you couldn't be more fluent, you couldn't be more fluid. Is there anything else that works
2:16:46
I know the box breathing I used to tell people to imagine the audience is naked but that not great advice Yeah it only works with adults for a start Yeah yeah
2:16:57
I've heard it, we're not trying it. And as well, because you're on the spot, I think you just got to do it
2:17:05
But yeah, box breathing, take a breath and try and... And I think that everyone's watching you, but they're also in that moment with you
2:17:14
I've got a moment with you, so you've got to create that space. To you, everything's happening so fast, but to them it's slurping
2:17:20
That's very true. That's very true. I mean, you've just added, really, and you sounded
2:17:26
when you started talking to me, you sounded like you describe, but you haven't sounded like that since
2:17:32
Sometimes it's a bit like that, riding bicycles without stabilizers, isn't it
2:17:37
You don't notice when someone's stopped holding you, you're off. Yeah, except warming up
2:17:42
and I was on with Tom Swarbrek a few weeks ago talking about Gallows Bond and the book
2:17:48
and I froze up. Luckily, I think he's recognised my problem, and he took over the conversation kind of thing
2:17:55
But afterwards, I thought, oh, so much of what I'm just saying and get out
2:18:01
Luckily, he... Well, like Joe, you know, the more you do it, the easier it gets
2:18:07
Yeah. I mean, unfortunately for me, I'm finding that the book writing
2:18:11
it's not getting any easier the more I do it. So you've got one over on me there, Adrian
2:18:16
If you want to get it that way, you can always get in touch with me and I can give you..
2:18:20
I might have to, I might have to, because as I say, I've got another one coming down the slit
2:18:24
Mate, you've done an absolute solid job here, and you can find out more about Adrian's work
2:18:29
on his own website at acsalter.com. And there it is, a perfect example
2:18:36
an almost textbook example of somebody who is brilliant with words, but by their own ysis not brilliant with speaking and and there it is how can anybody
2:18:44
think it's a bad idea to try to close the gap between the two whichever side of the divide that
2:18:49
you're on speaking of books gary kemp um spandau ballet actor the craze the body god loads of stuff
2:18:56
and and latterly a lot of stage work as well a lot of really strong stage work including some pinter
2:19:00
um really interesting guy really interesting guy and an amazing book that he's publishing which is
2:19:07
based upon his purchase of Brian Epstein's, you'll like this, she, Brian Epstein's contacts book
2:19:14
So the Beatles manager, when he died, his contacts book was on the bed in the hotel where he died
2:19:19
and it came up for auction, and Gary Kemp bought it, and they've put together an entire book based around its contents
2:19:24
But full disclosure being full disclosure, we started his story at the very beginning
2:19:30
You were not from the other side of the tracks. Your upbringing was poor
2:19:34
It was properly working class, and it was properly poor. Yes, it was
2:19:39
I, um... You know, in a way, I don't even like to say that
2:19:43
because I don't want to even say, Mum, Dad, you were poor. Well, no, I sensed that then
2:19:48
I didn't, you know, I didn't mean it like that. No, no, but we... And also, you only know the childhood you've got
2:19:53
It's only when you meet people later that you realize what you didn't have. But what you did always have was love
2:19:58
No question. The first, there were two things that made me aware of being
2:20:03
you know, not having a lot of money. Um, my mum, I remember my mum crying
2:20:11
because she couldn't afford to buy me a new pair of shoes. And I'd grown out of the ones I had
2:20:18
I remember the exact moment, just sort of, you know, crossing Essex Road and to the shops
2:20:26
And another moment which stuck in my mind, sticks in my mind, is, like all kids, you know
2:20:32
I think, oh, there's my mum's coat hanging up there. I'll have a look to see what she has in her pockets
2:20:38
Lipstick or something. She had two holes. And it obviously there is a
2:20:47
it's more metaphorical than actual, but it's stuck in my mind and as being sort of symbolic of who we were
2:20:58
Just a little flavor there in my conversation with Gary Camp. One of the, I mean, they're all enjoyable, you know
2:21:03
I don't think I've ever had a doff one, but the joy of being utterly taken by surprise by somebody
2:21:09
was very acute in that one. Not just because of him, I kind of knew what to expect
2:21:14
because of this extraordinary book as well. And I think by way of, what's the word that I want
2:21:19
Tribute to anybody who suffers from imposter syndrome, anybody who really thinks that if only they could be a little bit more confident
2:21:26
then they'd be much better at talking. This is what happens if you're incredibly confident and rubbish at talking
2:21:32
The idea of not spending evenings with my kids is completely unacceptable
2:21:38
So my president, excuse me, my husband, that's a good one. My husband is out here
2:21:45
So that is the White House press secretary. So technically one of the finest communicators in the world
2:21:51
I don't know what the opposite of imposter syndrome is, but I know what it looks like. That's it
2:21:56
If you missed any of today's show, you can listen back on our free Global Player app or the LBC app
2:22:00
where you can also stay up to date with all the latest news videos and opinions. including that full disclosure interview with Gary Camp
2:22:05
and indeed the best bits from this show every day on James O'Brien Daily. So download the official LBC app
2:22:10
It's free from your app store now. Tom Swarbrick will be with you at four
2:22:14
Kudos to Tom for the very sensitive way that he dealt with Adrian
2:22:18
my last caller today, and kudos to Sheila Fogarty for just being generally wonderful
2:22:22
Oh, here we go. That's a nice way to end the week. Thanks very much, James. There we go. James O'Brien on LBC
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