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I want Andy Burnham to fix the British high street | James O'Brien - The Whole Show
Aug 12, 2026
This is a catch-up version of James O'Brien's live, daily show on LBC Radio from the 11th of August, 2026.
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0:00
it's three minutes after ten you are listening to james o'brien on lbc have you ever had
0:09
i was just reading a lovely story about jess phillips pretending she was sick in order to
0:14
avoid having to defend peter mandelson during the the the dog days of that scandal which probably
0:19
signaled the beginning of the end for kia starmer didn't it or the end of the beginning of the end
0:24
I'm thinking about bosses I'm thinking about also life when you really don't want to do something or
0:31
you think something is impossible but you know you have to try do you know that feeling do you
0:36
remember that feeling I talked we talked yesterday about the impact that the COVID experience not the
0:43
virus but the but the experience of of COVID management and lockdowns and the rest of it
0:47
will have had on young people and how big a part it might have played in the domination of neats
0:57
now the demographic domination of neats the one million neats and i'm trying to think of ways of
1:02
distilling it down to to nice easily digestible sentences and statements and this idea of being
1:08
frightened of the world is too vague it's too nebulous it's it's what what did you not learn
1:13
You didn't learn that thing when you really don't want to do something
1:17
or you think something is impossible, but you have to try. I think the reason why Bob remains quite high
1:24
the Burnham Optimism Barometer, which is now standing at eight for the third week running
1:29
only among the incredibly unscientific and self-selecting contributors to the Burnham Optimism Barometer at 10 past 10 every Monday morning on LBC
1:39
But one of the reasons why it remains high, albeit that we're only talking about a three-week window
1:44
is because I think Burnham is kind of encapsulating that at the moment
1:48
It doesn't mean it will work. Please don't think that I'm putting on rose-tinted spectacles
1:52
or engaging in excessive optimism. But he is looking at things that I think previous politicians
2:01
have looked at and shrugged or despaired. And he is sort of saying, well, we have to
2:09
Well, we have to. And if you were looking for a friendly or a kindly way of describing what perhaps those young people
2:18
many of those young people lost as a consequence of being de-socialized during COVID
2:23
it's that moment in your life where you kind of have to. Well, we just have to
2:28
We have to. I don't want to do it any more than you do. And we're probably going to fail, but we have to try
2:33
We've got to go to the... Am I making sense? that kind of psychological process, really
2:39
in which we do things that we, A, don't want to do, and or, B, don't think we're going to succeed at
2:46
And you kind of have to do it. It's really an incredible, I think
2:50
and I only had the thought about eight minutes ago, forgive me if it's not fully fleshed out
2:54
but I think it's one of the most important things that we do during that period of our life
3:00
that we were talking about yesterday. and I I was thinking about it this morning on two fronts
3:07
the first most obviously is when he says to the Justice Secretary I don't care, you've got to find a way to keep
3:13
Andrew Harper's killers in jail you've got to find a way to do it we're going to talk about that later in the programme
3:18
because it's not necessarily a good thing although it does fit this theory
3:22
that I'm currently fleshing out with you with regard to just saying
3:26
well no I don't care, we have to do it I don't care how hard it is, I don't care if it does this
3:30
that we have to do it. And that's quite... It's a double-edged sword, isn't it
3:34
Because it opens you up to failure and to all the other things as well that could go along with it
3:38
But it has to be done. So he's done that. He's told the Justice Secretary
3:43
he has to find a way to keep PC Andrew Harper's killers in jail
3:48
And Angela Rayner has been doing the interview rounds this morning. No one pulling any sickies at the moment
3:53
when asked to defend Andy Burnham's performance or decisions. And she insisting that they will find
3:59
a way of doing it. And then we come to one of my
4:05
historically favourite subjects of all the subjects that we talk about together. We come to the British
4:11
High Street. And this is what he's posted. Andy Burnham says that
4:15
the tweet, unfortunately, I don't know, we'll have a conversation again soon
4:19
about whether the government should still be on that hell site. Vape shops
4:23
betting shops, dodgy businesses. If you look at your high street these days
4:27
and think, who asked for this? You're not alone. I'm doing something about it
4:31
We're giving local people and councils more control over what opens and tougher powers to crack down on businesses
4:37
that aren't good for our communities. For too long, Westminster has stood by
4:41
while our high streets declined. That ends now. It's very much part of the pattern of politics
4:53
that seems to be taking hold at the moment. The prime ministerial politics that seems to be saying
4:59
people want change people want this to be different it might be quite a little thing
5:04
but the previous pattern has been oh there's nothing we can do about that
5:08
hasn't it? I mean that was the pattern with Andrew it's an odd parallel to draw
5:13
but that's the problem with a theory that's only just come out of your brain eight, ten, nine minutes ago
5:19
it's what he's doing with Andrew Harper's killers and it's what he's doing with the high street
5:23
other politicians have looked at it and shrugged, or not shrugged, despaired
5:28
They've just gone, no, we can't do this. And he might fail, of course
5:32
And that will probably not be forgiven, particularly on the Andrew Harper front
5:38
For too long, Westminster has stood by while our high streets declined
5:43
That ends now. That ends now. I think you might need a little bit more from me
5:54
before you ring in, but if you don't, ring in now. can Andy Burnham halt the decline of British high streets
6:03
And I obviously hope he can, but I would inevitably ask you, how
6:11
How can you halt the decline of British high streets? I wonder how kindly or how closely you listen to this programme over the years
6:19
Do you know what I usually reach for now? Not my own time in River Island on Worcester High Street
6:24
Nick had a call towards the end of his show from a high street from a commercial landlord on a high street I know well
6:30
Not my time in River Island or even my time on Regent Street in Aquascutum
6:35
I reach now for a pub in Leicester Square. And I don't know why I think about this whenever we turn our attention to this subject
6:43
Because a pub in Leicester Square has no lessons, really, for a commercial landlord in Kidderminster
6:49
Does he? Does it? I don't know. but the reason why I think of it is because I used to walk past it every day on my way to this studio
6:56
and how long have we been in there? About 15 years we've been in this building
7:00
so I mean for a long time and Leicester Square was undergoing a period of redevelopment
7:06
and I could not understand why this pub was empty it was a pub smack in the middle of Leicester Square
7:13
just down near the library I can't even remember what it was called anymore but I couldn't
7:17
I find the sight of an empty pub quite dispiriting at the best of times
7:22
which is also a conversation that we had and is probably linked to the decline of the high street quite closely when you think about it but commercially and I not very good at commercial things commercially I couldn understand why it was empty until the day that I did
7:37
And the reason why it was empty was because there was no point opening it
7:42
There was no point going to it because it was obviously going to be bought, knocked down and turned into part of a massive hotel at some point in the not too distant future
7:48
And that, dear listener, is exactly what happened. So, empty premises are not always sad stories
7:59
But Leicester Square must constitute some of the most expensive and productive real estate
8:05
profitable real estate on the planet. I don't know how profitable it is, actually. We have quite a high turnover of restaurants in the heart of Leicester Square
8:13
where we sit every day, where we work every day. But still, you take my point
8:16
So I started thinking, well, if the shops are empty, then landlords are either losing money or standing still or a.n. other
8:32
Theory three that I can't quite get my head around. And if a landlord is losing money, why don't they rent it out to somebody who can't afford to pay market rate rent
8:42
But listen, no one can currently afford to pay market rate rent because the premises is empty
8:46
right? And so along comes not a betting shop, although you may consider them a scourge
8:55
upon your high street, they make a lot of money so they can pay their way, but along comes
8:59
a business that may not be properly registered for tax, or a business that may
9:03
be a front for a money laundering operation, or a business that may be
9:07
I don't know, some sort of vanity project, again to stay in Leicester Square for a moment
9:12
I'll never forget a little shop that opened around the corner from here
9:17
a little cafe that opened, where every single thing on the menu was mango-related
9:21
And I remember walking past it and thinking, that's not going to... I'm no expert on this
9:25
but every single product they sold had mangoes in it. And I thought, that must be the child of a very rich man
9:31
who's just been given some money to open a mango-related... I wanted it to flourish
9:35
I wanted it to thrive. I went in there once. I can only take so much mango-related food or drink in a day
9:41
And it didn't... I don't think it did... I'm going to check now, aren't I? and there's going to be about 500 of them
9:45
There's going to be branches of the thing all over the world, and I could have bought shares on the early day
9:49
But you see what I mean. It's either going to be losing money, standing completely still
9:53
which means you own the freehold, does it? And therefore, you know, you don't have many outgoings or overheads
10:00
to pay on an empty premises, or something else is going on. Or something else is going on
10:07
And that's why I have a beautiful dissonance this morning when it comes to Andy Burnham's ambition to fix the high street
10:17
to fix the British high street. I don't think he can, and yet I really want him to
10:23
I don't think he can because of all the things I don't understand and that I've just shared with you there
10:28
The idea that an empty premises, an occupied premises is better than an empty premises
10:35
and if there was something else that could be in that premises now, it would be there
10:39
why are British high streets in such a state? 0345 6060973 can Andy Burnham improve things
10:49
and if so, how? 0345 6060973 is the number that you need
10:54
and get on board with this because I think the reason why I find conversations about high streets
11:03
so enduringly powerful is because it's something with which almost every single one of us has a relationship
11:13
Do you know what I mean? I don't know what your memory is. I've got a few. My memory would involve
11:17
there used to be a Marks and Spencers in Kidderminster and Brentford are the towns I currently know
11:22
And they're at almost opposite ends of this conversation. Kidderminster is very much a town in decline
11:28
And yet recently some fantastic venues have opened up and the town hall has undergone a magnificent re..
11:36
habilitation almost, not just a renovation, but they're booking some fantastic acts
11:42
My mate Mike Sanchez will be there, I think, at the end of this month, rocking the whole town
11:47
not just rocking the house or rocking the building. And some of the acts that are turning up, there's some new venues opening as well
11:53
And so it seems to be developing a nightlife, which it hasn't had since I was a kid
11:58
but it isn't necessarily going to be able to do much about the day life
12:02
You have shops next door to each other in Kinneminstead that are selling the same things
12:09
You have one shop that specialises in vapes and mobile phones or mobile phone accessories
12:14
And then right next door, you have another shop, or maybe just over the way, you have another shop that specialises in vapes and mobile phone accessories
12:21
There was one of our, I think our top man in Manchester was on with Nick this morning
12:24
talking about a street that has 40 vape shops on it. There's no way that's above board, is there
12:30
Please, as ever, you know how this programme works. correct me if I'm wrong, there's no way that's above board
12:35
You can't possibly be washing 40 faces by selling the same stuff
12:40
So something is clearly going on. We had two barbers on My High Street in Brentford until recently
12:47
when one of them shut down because the new one that opened is doing brilliant business
12:51
It's doing a great job. It's never empty. 50 shops in a 300-yard area, we heard about on The Breakfast Show
12:59
So there's a lot going on here. But none of it necessarily points to easy solutions
13:06
Can Andy Burnham turn it round? Can Andy Burnham turn it round
13:11
And if so, how? 0345 6060 973. And maybe if you've got some business knowledge
13:19
you can help me with this bit. You're talking about not letting..
13:23
Because most high streets have got boarded up premises now, right? The other problem with this conversation, of course
13:27
is I say high street, you see a different picture from the one that I see. I say High Street, what do you see
13:33
Where you are now, do you see your hometown? Do you see the last High Street you drove down
13:38
I say High Street, what do you see? We don't all see the same High Street
13:42
So the one with, you know, 40, 50 vape shops in a 300-yard route
13:47
if you're seeing that High Street, then Andy Burnham's words are going to be like honey to your ears, right
13:52
But if you're looking at, for example, Brentford High Street, where I live at the moment, you're thinking
13:56
well, we've only really got one vape shop, and God knows how many varieties of vape the world can sustain
14:00
but he seems to be doing okay. Why would we not want that to be there? And as I say, we've got one, Barber just lost one
14:07
So it's not really speaking about my high street, unless I think back to my days in Kidderminster
14:13
when I go and visit Kidderminster and think, oh, what a shame, this used to be such a lovely town
14:18
And now I sound like one of those bloody Facebook posts going on about drinking out of garden hoses and living off Spangles
14:25
Kidderminster has an awful lot to recommend it. I love the place, and I was reminiscing on Saturday
14:30
with a few fellow alumni of Kidderminster at the football in Hornchurch
14:35
and, you know, there's still a lot to recommend it, but it's not... You don't want to turn into one of those Facebook people
14:40
bemoaning the past, bemoaning it, remember it, recognise it, commemorate it, but don't bemoan it
14:47
unless you're describing a town that's had its heart ripped out by the same things that have ripped out the hearts of all the other towns
14:54
the out shopping centre and the internet And then if you have heard me cover this topic before you know that at this point I routinely reference my friend Andreas greengrocer to the stars who used to have a greengrocer in Chiswick where I lived at the time
15:08
and closed, and when he closed down, before reopening in glorious fashion in London's fashionable Chelsea
15:14
people were piling into the shop to commiserate about his imminent departure from our high street
15:18
at which point he would wryly note to himself that they were carrying bags full of groceries from Sainsbury's
15:26
when they came in to wish him farewell or to wish him, because you don't spend your money in the shops
15:30
that possibly can buck the trends. You spend your money after looking at the prices
15:35
and deciding what's cheapest. So, I mean, listen, the internet, obviously an out-of-town shopping centres
15:45
but if they are the behemoths of this conversation, If they are the optimist primes of this conversation
15:52
then the other question's already been answered. If it's all down to the internet and out-of-town shopping centres
15:58
then how can he possibly turn it around? By offering something else? What? What
16:03
What does a rejuvenated high street in Britain look like? Because I really want to go there
16:08
And if it works in that town, can it work in a town five miles away? Or does it involve a niche that can't be replicated unless you're 50 miles away
16:15
because otherwise you're going to be spreading what custom there is far too thinly
16:20
0345 6060 973. I love the high street. I love shops. My early jobs, my first jobs were in shops
16:28
There's something about that interaction. It's not unlike what I do now. It's customer facing
16:32
I love talking to people that I'm meeting in professional circumstances. Can Andy Burnham fix the high street
16:38
And if so, how? 0345 6060 973. James O'Brien on LBC. 21 minutes after 10 is the time
16:48
If I left you baffled by my little introduction this morning regarding the importance of attempting to do things
16:55
that are probably not going to work, or which might work where everyone else has previously given up
17:00
then Joe's been in touch with a quote from JFK. I haven't checked his provenance, Joe, so if you are sending an apocryphal quote into the ether
17:08
I'm going to blame you entirely. JFK said it, James, we choose to go to the moon not because it is easy
17:14
but because it is hard. It's not quite the same. Andy Burnham, we choose to resurrect the British High Street, not because it is easy, but because it is hard
17:22
But is it possible? Is it possible? 22 after 10 is the time. Mark's in Macclesfield. Mark, what do you reckon
17:29
Morning, James. Hello, mate. Hiya, mate, yeah. So, James, I don't believe that Andy Burnham can save the High Street with what he's proposing at the moment
17:37
my personal belief is the only way to change the high streets
17:42
is people actually want high streets to be like they used to be many years ago
17:46
Which they don't, do they? Possibly. I mean, we've all got great stories of our childhood
17:51
spending hours and hours walking around the shop. But all of those... No, I know
17:56
And Mum leaving you to play by the steps at Marks and Spencer's
17:59
were like a little climbing frame, practically. And there'd be about eight kids there just clambering all over it
18:04
We had this weird thing in Kiddy called the Swan Centre that had actual swans in it with like a tiny little slide inside
18:10
Anyway, I digress. All of those shops shut because we stopped shopping in them
18:16
Pretty much. Obviously, over the last few years, we've had the explosion in companies like Amazon
18:22
where you can literally order something now and it'll be delivered the same day
18:27
Unfortunately, High Street cannot compete with that. So the only way I believe that the High Street can regenerate itself
18:33
if there was public support for that, would be for the government to impose central legislation
18:39
to make it easier and cheaper for people to use the high streets
18:43
And that would, unfortunately, mean that there is a levy on any online purchases
18:49
And we actually clamp down that side of things. But I don't think that's going to get much public support
18:53
to be honest with you, James. He's not going to do that, is he
18:58
No. Highly unlikely. So, again, we're in a situation where most of the commercial retail properties
19:04
is on our high street, so it's actually owned by pension funds. I think the Duke of Westminster is one of the highest..
19:11
Well, that might be true in London. I don't think that's going to be true in Kidderminster, is it? Or Macclesfield
19:16
Well, I think, yeah, I think you'll be very surprised. Really? And the reason why..
19:19
But they can't be getting a return on it, though, can they, if it's empty? Well, let me explain this to you, James
19:24
If you have a book value of a property that's a million pounds, for example, for a Marks and Spencers that used to be in Kidderminster, it's now closed
19:31
If you rent that out at £20,000 a year for somebody, the book value of that property drops from a million pounds to 200,000 pounds
19:38
Now, are you telling me that pension companies around the world are going to accept
19:42
if you think the subprime mortgage collapse in the US in the early 2000s
19:47
if you think that was an issue, imagine the huge decimation of pension funds across the world
19:53
How does that work? I think your field is property rather than pensions, am I right
19:59
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But how does that work then? Why the pension has an asset that is not worth what the balance book says it's worth
20:08
How is that serving the pensioners? I don't know, I'm not the expert on that
20:12
No, that's what I thought. Yeah, I'm not cool put up on that, but I do know that, obviously
20:18
if something's overvalued and somebody then undervalues something, then that's going to cause huge..
20:23
Or someone insists on it being valued correctly, then the ramifications, as you say, take us back to 2008
20:30
when the subprime mortgage scandal exploded in the world's faces. So, yeah, so as long as most of the stuff you want to buy
20:39
is going to be cheaper to buy online, you cannot resurrect the high street
20:45
Well, it's cheaper and it's more accessible and it's more convenient. Those three things, unfortunately, at the moment
20:53
it's all in the favour of online shopping. Yeah, you're right. We seem to want things now
20:57
I mean, I remember years ago, James, you went to a video shop and you had to order the film in for maybe two or three weeks time
21:03
because there was only so many copies available at Blockbusters. All roads lead to neats at the moment
21:09
I guess we talked about neats and how, you know, you need to know to be bored
21:13
You need to know what it is to be bored and to wait for things. And instant gratification is what you're describing
21:19
Is there anything else you could do? I mean, short of, I mean, come back to my end of the telescope
21:25
Rather than saying what he needs to do to online retailers, what could he do on the high street
21:30
What about an empty premises now? Oh, yeah, if the landlord says
21:35
and if it's owned by a pension fund, and the landlord says, it's all right, you can have it for buttons
21:39
then the property comes down in value overnight. It comes down in value overnight
21:44
The other side of the coin as well, James, is I've got a number of businesses on the high street
21:49
in tertiary locations. What does that mean? Well, they're not on the main high street
21:54
They're in secondary locations. Yeah, I could have worked that out. So just off the main drag, as it were
21:58
So you sacrifice in footfall, you make up for in your offering
22:03
Yeah, so my rent. Yes. Yeah, so my rent, say my rent on my business is £20,000 a year
22:08
The same premises, literally 100 yards down the road on the main high street where the football is, could be £80,000 a year
22:14
I choose the £20,000 a year property because that's affordable for my business, yeah
22:19
Yeah. And I've invested in that property for 15 years and ran it as a business
22:24
so from my point of view why should someone suddenly be able to get the same rent that I paying in my fixed lease in the high football area and open the same business as me as you mentioned before about the bait shops opposite each other in Kiddimanster mobile phone shops
22:38
etc. Why should somebody then, another business operator who's starting off, who's not invested
22:43
15 years of time and employed 100 people in the town, why should they suddenly be allowed
22:47
to rent a property at 20,000? Why shouldn't I get that offer first? Absolutely right. I mean, why shouldn't you? And that's a rhetorical question because you're
22:54
Flipping should, obviously. Final question, and thank you. You've kicked this off absolutely perfectly
22:58
and you've made me think of another question that's a little less serious, but I'll add it to the mix after our conversation
23:04
Are there empty shops on what you would call the primary locations in the town
23:08
where you have your tertiary location? Oh, yeah. So they're actually empty shops
23:14
Yeah, there you go. Empty shops, yeah. They moved out of town, they moved to a retail park
23:18
literally a mile away, where it's free parking, James. I mean, one thing that offers..
23:23
is offer free parking. Yeah, I mean, people always say that, and yet that would involve
23:28
I was thinking about that in Worcester Hospital on Sunday when I was visiting mum
23:32
and it always boils my blood how much it costs to park in hospital car parks
23:35
but that money's not going to, at least as far as I'm aware, it's not going to an oligarch
23:40
You know, the money that the parking is spent on would then have to come from another part of a budget
23:44
a council or an NHS budget. Mark, before you go, as a Macclesfield man
23:48
one thing we can all agree is that I think Origi Bianchi are in the absolute premier league of retailers, am I right
23:56
Are you 100%? That's a crazy shum. I went to school with one of the current owners as a lovely bloke
24:03
Thank you, Mark. It is coming up to half past ten. Because if you're offering something exceptional and extraordinary
24:08
you will probably always be all right. Probably always be all right
24:13
But exceptional and extraordinary are exceptional and extraordinary words, for a reason
24:18
And just for the avoidance of doubt, Gary's been in touch to remind me, The Kidamista does have a thriving Marks & Spencers
24:23
but it's in Weaver's Wharf now, so it's out of town. And it's only just out of town
24:28
It's the same distance walk from the car park as it was when it was in the middle of town
24:32
So it's the middle of town that's broken. The town as a whole is not broken
24:37
It's just got the broken bit next to the thriving bit. And that is what Andy Burnham's problem is
24:42
Well, apart from all the things that Mark's just listed. What? Can I ask you this
24:47
Yeah, I think I can. Maybe tech... What shop would work? Do you ever dream of a shop
24:53
Do you have an idea of a shop that would really, really work? I used to think, if this all goes south
25:00
or if I run out of things to say, perish the thought, I'll open a little menswear shop
25:05
But I'll get it right. I'll do something differently from what everybody else is doing. I don't know what it would have been
25:09
Maybe specialise in formal wear. But that doesn't really hold anymore, does it
25:14
People don't wear dicky bows and dinner suits as much as they used to. I used to have a dream about a little, just a little shop
25:22
It was going to be called O'Brien and Son, but I don't have a son, so that would be the first thing that would have to be reviewed
25:27
Could you get a shop up and running? Who's done that? There you go. You see, I start with a silly question. I end up with a good one
25:34
Who started a shop recently? Give us a ring. Give us a call and tell us what you think about Andy Byrne
25:38
And you can have a free advert. There's a little inducement for you, because I know how busy things are, hopefully
25:43
How do you get, as someone who has recently opened a shop on a high street
25:48
what can we learn from you? 10.31 is the time. Dominic Ellis has your headlines
25:53
James O'Brien on LBC. 10.34 is the time. Two days running, we are bigging up byline times
26:00
They do some excellent work, and they have the strapline what the papers don't say
26:03
which is, for reasons you don't need me to explain, quite important these days. But they have got hold of, apparently
26:10
a cache of canvassing materials being used by Reform UK. And in one presentation
26:16
reform activists are told what the biggest threat to reform is. And I'm going to tease you with that for ten minutes or so
26:24
What do you think reform is telling its activists, reportedly, the biggest threat to reform is
26:30
What's the biggest threat to reform, according to Reform UK? And don't let me go home without telling you the answer to that question
26:38
In the meantime, high streets, you want them... You can't do... So, actually, I've just realised who Gary is
26:43
who sent me the message about Mark Suspensers and Kiddermere. So Gary runs our Facebook site for Kidderminster, and he's brilliant at closing down the pointless nostalgia
26:53
You know, it's like being nostalgic for rickets or typhoid or undrinkable water
26:57
Yes, in a sepia-tinted black-and-white photograph, that building looks magnificent. And yes, if we could go back in time, we probably wouldn't have replaced it with the old post office or some other concrete carbuncle
27:09
But most of the time, buildings are pulled down because they are no longer fit for purpose
27:16
So the old nostalgia about all those were the days when everybody had a chopper, a rally chopper, and we lived on cola cubes
27:23
That's not, it's a very popular thing on Facebook. But if, like me, you're interested in history and architecture and all the rest of it, that's not what a good Facebook past page will do
27:34
And you don't want to turn into that. So I worry that part of my nostalgia for the high street is, like Mark in Macclesfield said, born of childhood memory
27:44
So bear that in mind when you're telling me what the future looks like
27:48
Because if you did this phone-in badly, and goodness knows I know a lot about doing phone-ins badly
27:53
then you'd just be ringing in and tell me what the past looks like, right? Ah, that's quite an important point, isn't it
28:01
Don't ring me and tell me what the past looks like. Tell me what the future looks like
28:07
Mark's in Derby. Mark, what do you reckon? Hello. Long-time listener. Basically, just great to speak to you
28:13
But what I really want to discuss is I grew up in Walthamstow Market, basically
28:17
And I remember being dragged up and down by my mum and my nan. It was like an eight-hour shift
28:22
And it was heaving. It was the longest market in Europe at the time. And it was hustle and bustle
28:27
But, be honest, I'm really optimistic. We're in a point of evolution, I believe, in England and in the UK
28:34
And I feel that the high street is dying. But what we'll come after will be stronger and better
28:39
Our tastes are changing. I don't want to spend eight hours shopping for one item
28:43
I want to go on Amazon. You don't have to. So you're doing that thing, aren't you
28:47
Although you're doing it from a slightly different angle. You're not telling me what the past looks like with a nostalgic glint in your eye
28:52
You're telling me what the past looks like with a sense of relief that it doesn't look like that anymore
28:57
But what does the future look like? What does the future look like? Well, I feel like, like you said, in Kidderminster
29:01
we've got more vibrant cafes, we have more vibrant nightlife. I mean, nightlife is changing
29:08
Pubs used to be the place to go, but the young are not doing that anymore. But what about day... I'm sorry to be a blimmin' misery guts
29:14
but I'm thinking more about daylife. I mean, I said that when I described the new venues that have opened in Kidderminster
29:19
and the revitalisation of the town hall, and I bet they'll be booking me next if things carry on at this rate, Mark
29:25
But that's not daylife. We've still got loads of vape shops and phone shops and empty premises
29:31
And I don't know if this is peculiar, because I don't get out as much as I should
29:35
but it's the only place I've really seen, a town centre full of boarded-up shops
29:39
that has a market, market stalls on the streets outside the boarded-up shops
29:45
So, I mean, it's not without its charm, but it's even got a butcher's
29:50
It's not just sort of craft fairs and things like that, like you get in West London
29:53
I don't know that, you know, all the cafes and bars in the world can rescue the sense of decline
29:59
in a town where the shops are shut and there are trestle tables and stalls parked up outside them
30:05
Well, I live in Derby and I don't go into Derby city centre because they charge me like £3, £3.50 just for one hour
30:12
Yes. So that's what deters me, not the shops. It's actually what the local authorities are doing
30:18
So if they want people to go back into the city centres, you need to..
30:23
Just roll out the red carpet. First thing you do, free parking, wherever you are
30:27
Yes, exactly. And the council will have to find other ways to plug the hole that's left in the budget
30:31
And that's back to the, well, just do it, like Andy Burnham has said about Andrew Harper's killers
30:37
So what does the future look like, though? Because I'm not having nightlife. I'm talking daylife
30:41
What does the daylife look like in the glorious future that you were depicting when you came on the line
30:46
So when I go back to Walthamstow and I visit, and to be honest with you, I'm actually pleasantly surprised
30:50
Now, gone are a lot of the Percy Ingalls and all the old stalls and whatnot
30:54
but there's more cafes, there's more food places. I feel like the younger generation now like to go out and eat more
31:01
They like to go out and socialise, but not at nightclubs or pubs. They prefer to go to..
31:05
I'm not going to... Don't make me rain on your parade, but you know that we've got a cost-of-living crisis at the moment
31:10
and you're talking about what are loosely luxuries rather than essentials. Somehow, essentials are..
31:17
Well, maybe you're right. Maybe it would be luxuries, but it can't all be hospitality. Hospitality is in many ways on its knees as well
31:23
but I don't want to rain on your parade because you sounded so upbeat, didn't you
31:27
And Tiggerish when you came on at the beginning about the glorious... Andy Burnham painting a picture of our glorious future
31:32
but we don't really know what it looks like, and that's got to be a problem. Not just for us, but for Andy Burnham as well
31:39
Thank you, Mark. Sian's in Kings Langley. Sian, what would you like to say? Oh, hi there
31:44
Nice to talk to you, James. Basically, I opened my business. I own a shop on a small village high street in October 23
31:54
Yes. And it's really interesting listening to you talk about is the high street dead, like, I guess
32:00
it's the definition of the high street. For me, where I am, I'm in a small village high street
32:06
Right. And our high street is thriving, and I work really hard for my shop to do well
32:11
But my local town high street is the complete opposite. it so it's it's i think it's really a focus on what the definition of the high street is and i
32:21
just heard you're like you talking to your last caller about um essentials versus you know non-essentials
32:28
and i absolutely i guess i'm classed as well i i know i guess i am classed as a non-essential shop
32:35
i do simple living lifestyle products you know for people who want to come to a shop they want
32:42
to browse they want to interact with a vibe of a place so what like decor and things like that
32:48
so i do um i guess home and garden and lifestyle stuff so i sell lovely candles and beautiful
32:56
journals and pots for your garden and i love shops like yours thank you just have a little
33:02
pooch around and come up with something you didn't didn't know you needed didn't even know you wanted it let alone needed it absolutely and i have a lot of people who um come because we have
33:11
other places in the village that are an upholstery shop or, you know
33:15
there's a small art gallery here. We have a great clothes shop, a butcher's
33:20
So this is quite idyllic and this is what I meant when I said, I don't know if you heard, I said, you know
33:25
I say High Street, you close your eyes, what do you see? And if you're seeing what you describe, if you're seeing
33:29
the High Street where your shop is, then you're not who Andy Burnham is talking about, are you
33:33
Right. I think this is why I called in because this is the idea
33:37
of people's, you know... But do you think that that can be replicated
33:41
I mean, obviously not the same shops necessarily, but can that be replicated? Could they turn around
33:46
Is the local town King's Langley? Yes. So I'm in King's Langley close
33:51
Watford is the biggest town. Could they turn around Watford? Um, well, the hilarious thing is
33:58
I rarely go into Watford myself. Well, there you go. What would tempt you in
34:03
What would tempt you into Watford? Um, if I'm honest, owning a shop
34:10
I don't ever want to go to any other shops. No, fair enough
34:14
So it puts you in a slightly peculiar position, doesn't it? Yeah, I'm not the greatest kind of person
34:20
to kind of have a good and broad view of it. All I know is that I think I am lucky
34:26
and I think places like me are lucky, that the local people are very..
34:32
They want to keep the high streets rising. They want our high streets. Yeah, it's more than just the community
34:37
I've worked out what your shop is called. You didn't spend ages coming up with the first bit of the title, did you
34:44
No. Can I tell people what it's called? Please. It's called Home and Garden by Sian
34:50
Absolutely not. Did you nearly call it Sian's Shop by any chance? No, I didn't
34:54
My predecessor was actually named the shop. So all my socials and all the people know the village
35:01
in the village the shop has, the little shop of happiness. It is a little shop of happiness
35:05
Oh, bless you. And that is, I mean, both the point and the opposite of the point, isn't it
35:10
Because that works. And it works in a beautiful little Hertfordshire village like King's Langley
35:14
but it would be absolutely no use whatsoever if we were trying to advise Andy Burnham on revitalising Watford High Street
35:21
So, there's something in that, though. A niche stroke destination, I think, works small
35:28
I mean, Kidderminster and Brentford are the towns, the high streets I see. When you say high street, I see Kidderminster and Brentford
35:34
Brentford is absolutely bonkers at the moment. A complete turnaround. Not to the eternal joy, necessarily
35:39
of people whose families have been in the area for years, but dockside facilities that have been empty for decades
35:47
have been torn down and turned into fancy flats. And with the fancy flats come new businesses
35:53
It's quite weird, though, because on the other side of the high street, where the development hasn't taken place
35:57
you've still got, like, a cost cutter and a vape shop and a barber's
36:01
I think Brentford is getting it pretty close to perfect at the moment
36:05
but we've got empty premises as well. We could probably support a shop like Sharn's
36:09
but we haven't got a butcher's. So what's Andy Burnham actually talking about, do you think
36:14
when he says that the decline of the high street will not be permitted to continue for too long
36:20
Westminster has stood by while our high street's declined. That ends now
36:25
So we've spoken to a shopkeeper. What about the nearly shopkeeper? What about... You can tell I'm in a good mood, can't you
36:32
because I'm setting new challenges for my switchboard every section of the programme
36:36
So you looked into opening a shop. You thought about opening a shop. You wanted to open a shop, and you didn't open a shop
36:44
Why not? What could perhaps be on Andy Burnham's to-do list that would have made you more likely to get the shutters up
36:52
more likely to open the door? If you hit the numbers now, you will get through
36:59
03456060973. Of course, the love for Watford is coming in now. Wayne tells me it's got new restaurants, large brands of cinema, a new Ford Court, food court
37:06
It's perfect for a quick escape to London or the commuter belt as well
37:10
So maybe it was wrong to lump Watford in with other towns, the towns that Andy Burnham's talking about
37:16
So that's ask number one. If you're waiting to talk to me, don't worry, we'll be able to squeeze you in as well, I hope
37:23
But ask number one is you didn open a shop because dot dot dot Is that dot dot dot something that can be and and ask number two you know he talking about your town vape shops betting shops dodgy businesses he bitten
37:37
off a little bit more than he can chew by going after the betting shops i'll tell you that for nothing they have an incredibly well organized and well-funded lobbying machine behind them but
37:46
um some people would add turkish barbers or kurdish barbers to that list vape shops betting
37:51
shops, dodgy businesses, if that's your town, I mean, the question I really
37:57
want to ask you is whether or not you would prefer them to
38:01
be shuttered. You'd prefer them to be empty. But if that's your town that Andy Burnham is talking
38:07
about, do you think he can turn this around? And if so, how
38:13
It is 10.46. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. James
38:19
O'Brien on LBC. 149 is the time. And, of course, I mean, on my sort of bus routes and beyond
38:27
some of the areas of London suburbs, the outer reaches of London that are thriving
38:32
often have quite a hefty ethnic slant. You know, you'll be looking at supermarkets
38:37
where people have a relationship with the owners, Ealing, Southall, in Southall at the weekend
38:47
Different, I mean, that's a very community-based offer. so you have shops and restaurants that are appealing to needs that can't be translated
38:59
out of those communities into different ones you know for example a shop selling saris is not going
39:05
to do very well in an area where there aren't any people who want to buy saris um so there are
39:11
niche for want of a better word or specific uh offers you can make that will work that will
39:18
thrive in certain areas, but Andy Burnham is setting himself a much bigger target than that
39:22
He wants to make it a national issue. The more I think about it, the more
39:27
I wonder if it actually is. Anne's been in touch to say he's talking about Makerfield
39:31
I don't know whether that is Anne in Makerfield, who this year has become one of my
39:35
favourite callers, but it could be. And if he's talking about Makerfield, that kind of proves
39:40
my point. Is that a town where the high street is dominated
39:44
by vape shops, betting shops, and dodgy businesses? And if so, what's the alternative
39:49
What's going to be there instead? Is nothing better than something? Alec is in Manchester
39:55
Alec, what can you tell us? Yeah, sorry. I'm a little bit under the weather. What did you just say
40:02
Do you know what I just heard? A bit of a blur, sorry
40:06
I just heard... Which is great, but I thought one of us has got a problem here
40:12
I hope it's not me. Carry on. Let's start again. I'm going to slow down. He's already done it
40:17
Stop hot. It was looking a bit... Sorry, I've got a crying baby
40:21
It was falling apart. Like, it had been renovated about 10 or 15 years ago, I think
40:25
Yeah. And he has done a £5 million renovation as his time as mayor
40:32
It's brilliant. It's honestly one of the best bits of my street you'll ever see
40:36
It's got unique restaurants. It's got florists. It's just really... I've never seen anywhere like it
40:42
And it's stop-bought. It's exactly the greatest place in the world. But it's bloody lovely now
40:47
It's really coming. It's honestly amazing. But, I mean, again, I'm raining on parades a bit this morning
40:54
and I don't intend to, and I don't really want to, but could that be repeated nearby
41:02
Because do you see what I mean? I'm thinking that Stockport has been turned around
41:06
and, in fact, it's even reached Reuters. It's been written about by Reuters, and it is often cited by the..
41:13
It was the Stockport Mayoral Development Corporation, wasn't it, using public capital to unlock private
41:17
investments. So to give the fellow his dues, he's got a plan, he's got an idea, and Stockport
41:22
would be a wonderful example. Population of 300,000, new homes, as you say
41:26
new businesses, all sorts of things. But could you do that up
41:29
the road as well? I hate to come in with the optimism, but
41:33
I think we've finally got a politician who does what he says and has done what
41:37
he said. I do think he can. Yeah. And that is why, because it is that thing
41:44
I don't know if you were listening at the top of the show, if you were dealing with the baby. You sound, Alec, don't take this the wrong way
41:48
you sound shattered, mate. Was it a tough night? Was it a tough night with a little one
41:54
No, no, I've got to, but no. Oh, good. Losing my voice a bit
41:58
That'll be it, though. That'll be it, though. But at the very top of the show, I was saying
42:02
maybe you just need someone to come along and break away from the idea of
42:06
oh, well, that can't be done. Even if they're doing it regretfully, they're doing it not with a shrug, but with a sigh
42:12
They go, I can't do that, it can't be done. And like you say, He's done it in Stockport
42:16
Why shouldn't he be able to do it elsewhere? In which case, the answer to the question that I'm asking
42:20
is probably a little bit more complicated than we can account for this morning
42:24
What are you going to do? Are you going to use public investment to bring in private..
42:29
or public money to bring in private investment? Which takes us slightly back to Mark in Macclesfield
42:34
From Alec in Manchester to Mark in Macclesfield. All we need is Anne in Makerfield, and we've got the hat-trick this morning
42:39
And it's a thing that my friend Scott picks up on. He's a shopkeeper, and he says
42:44
picking up on Mark in Macclesfield's point, it's not fair. It's simply not fair
42:50
when new shops get massively reduced rent to tempt them into the area
42:54
What are we? What are we, old shops? Chopped liver? So you'd have to deal with that somehow as well
43:00
There was one I saw recently in Ealing, and there was a privately run small organic supermarket
43:07
Don't laugh. I know I'm a walking cliche. I didn't go there. And then one of the chains opened
43:12
on the other side of the road. So that's targeted, right? There's no way they're both going to survive
43:17
So, you know, if you're trying to tempt in a big business, you're probably running the risk of squeezing out a small one
43:23
But we should all go to Stockport for the weekend. Does anyone want to come? Should we all get a shower bank to Stockport for the weekend
43:28
have a look at what's gone on up there and see whether or not it can be replicated elsewhere in the country
43:34
Liz is in Shepparton. Liz, what would you like to say? Oh, hi there. Hello, Liz
43:38
First of all, hello. Shepparton is amazing. The High Street, I absolutely love living here
43:45
purely because we have such a wonderful little variety of, we've still got a post office, we've got butchers
43:50
we've got a new wool shop that's open that's really specific, you know, for, but I've always, every now and again
43:57
the council comes along and says, well, we've got free parking up to three hours in our town
44:01
that you can just pull in, nip into the butchers, off you go
44:05
And people come to our village because of that, because they know they can just go in
44:09
The next town along, there isn't any free parking at all. So it's a bigger town and you have to go into the multi-storey
44:16
and you have to pay your £3 an hour. It's just gone up, actually, quite a lot. And I think people know they can bypass that
44:22
and go straight to the big Tesco's or Sainsbury's superstores with free parking outside
44:26
and just go in and get most of what they want. Or they buy online. So I think we need to encourage people to come in
44:33
for things that they can't buy online, get their nails done. All right, hairdressers, nail bars, people complain about them
44:38
We've got, I think in Brentford, we've got two or three nail bars. It's not necessarily something on my mental map of the town, to be honest with you
44:45
Although I do enjoy the odd manicure, Liz, between you and me. But, I mean, yeah, so services then become a replacement for..
44:53
Services that you have to come in for You cannot go online The other problem with the big town that just down the road from me is that all people used to go in because of all the restaurants and the takeaways They used to walk past the other shops and get the takeaway Now it a wall mopeds
45:07
with the guys delivering. Oh yeah, of course. Which means that people up there isn't a footfall
45:12
anymore of people walking past and they're not going to pay three pounds an hour to walk down
45:16
and go to, I don't know, maybe WH Smith or TK, whatever it's called now. Max. TK Maxx. No
45:22
No, it's not called TK Maxx, it's called TG Jones. Oh, TJ Hughes. TJ Jones, the old W Smiths, WH Smiths
45:29
Yes, anyway, I don't think they're going to, that's the point, I don't think people are going to pay money
45:35
They're going to go perhaps to a big superstore where they can ease, it's all about ease
45:39
Can you rescue a big town with wool shops? I'm being glib, but things like wool shops and cafes
45:47
and nail bars and services and hair salons, can you do that
45:51
Can you completely change the focus? I'm going to make a long list of all the things you can't buy online or get online
45:57
Start with services, move on to cooked food, but then you've reminded us even that can involve deliveries
46:02
which doesn't really help the high street at all. Can it be done? I mean, can it be done? I think if you can, with a bit of forethought
46:08
I think giving a couple of hours free parking would be a start
46:12
Everybody gets two hours, they can come in and do their little bits. Plus, the people in the next town, the lady who organises everything
46:18
She's almost the sort of guru of it all. She started to organize events in the main town square
46:24
where she puts on music and puts out deck chairs and then has little artisan markets
46:28
That's happening in Kiddy as well. Kiddy Minster's doing that as well. So actually part of the answer that's emerging in the course of this hour
46:35
is that you need to be the change you want to see at risk of going fully Californian
46:39
You need people in the community who want to improve the community
46:43
and it's manna from heaven for them to have a Prime Minister recognising that it's possible
46:49
albeit that it's going to be a heck of a lot more complicated than a single tweet allows
46:53
Liz, lovely stuff, thank you. And back to Derby. Blake is there. Blake, what would you like to say
46:58
I was thinking about experiences. Yes. So, in Manchester and Leeds, there's these arcades where you just pay to go in
47:09
and some of them are four floors tall. And it's just arcade machines from the 70s, 80s, 90s
47:15
all the way up to now. There's one in Soho, actually, although it's not that size. And I saw one in Worcester at the weekend
47:20
which I thought, crikey, I wish I wasn't busy. I'd love to lose a couple of hours in there
47:26
We've taken the kids a few times, and they are a real draw to the towns that you go to
47:32
This one just opened in Derby, and when my son saw it, he ran in to tell me about it
47:38
That's nice. That's a good thing, right? And does that, I mean, so, replace things that we didn't have in the past
47:45
Although we had arcades, didn't we? This is almost a sort of nostalgic arcade by the sounds of it
47:50
It is, but it's an experience that the kids can't get anywhere else. There's nothing else that's actually drawing people to towns
47:59
because everyone's broke now. That's true. Well, not everyone. So retail therapy, sorry
48:06
Yeah, no, it is about buying stuff for fun. It's not really for many, many people
48:11
So, I mean, we've got the lovely lady in Kings Langley. She has a shop that you go to to buy stuff for fun
48:19
to buy lovely stuff because you can and you want it. But that's not going to rescue a high street like Derby's
48:24
Derby's is going to have to draw people in very, very differently. And I love shops like that one that the lady was speaking about
48:33
But a lot of them are being replaced with stuff that people are buying from Team U
48:37
Yeah, I mean, you need to watch that as well. You won't get the quality on Team U. And speaking of Timu, our own Timu Trump, Nigel Farage
48:45
I did promise to reveal to you what they have told their own activists in Reform UK
48:50
is the biggest threat to success for Reform UK. The fact is, they wrote in a canvassing material seen by Byline Times
48:59
the biggest threat to reform is... It's not the Tories, it's not Labour
49:05
The establishment is going to throw everything at us. And the biggest threat to reform is..
49:10
how long have we got Keith 10 seconds can I string that one out do you think
49:16
I'll just do it again shall I come back round again shall I yes okay okay ready
49:20
yes the biggest threat to reform is I'll tell you after the news
49:25
James O'Brien on LBC 4 minutes after 11 is the time you're listening to James O'Brien
49:33
on LBC quite a few suggestions all variations on a similar theme
49:38
some left-field ones as well. But the biggest threat to Reform UK
49:44
according to canvassing material seen by Line Times, these are training videos and a cache of canvassing material
49:52
they not only advise party canvassers to ignore no junk mail signs
49:56
and leaflet the houses anyway, and to avoid wearing any party branding whilst doing so
50:01
in order to make the activists unidentifiable, But also, the fact is, the biggest threat to reform is people in it and itself
50:13
It's not the Tories, it's not Labour, the establishment is going to throw everything at us
50:16
The biggest chance of things going wrong is stuff like infighting, stuff like people just saying and doing stupid stuff
50:22
That's our biggest risk. They also advise people, which is, to be fair, advice that everybody should take
50:27
not to drink and tweet. because, as I say, the biggest threat to reform is the people in it
50:34
And that is reported in Byline Times this morning. Stay with Andy Burnham
50:42
And staying with that theme, I like this theme. It could all end horribly, but you would be able to say
50:49
well, at least he tried. And I know a lot of people feel that Keir Starmer
50:54
has been abominably treated even by Labour voters. But I can't really expend much more energy acknowledging your pain
51:01
because it's not very relevant anymore to the bigger picture. And yes, some of the things Andy Burnham has announced and been applauded for
51:09
were already coming down the slipway, were already on the schedule. But them's the breaks, that's the way it goes, you know
51:17
That was the old days, this is the new days. And the thing I was trying to articulate at the top of the show
51:23
That idea of, because the five people in front of you have had a look at something and decided nothing can be done, you conclude that nothing can be done
51:32
Andy Burnham is not doing that. And at the moment, it feels very refreshing
51:36
It may end up feeling ridiculous, but at the moment, it's feeling very refreshing
51:42
He is looking at the high street and decades of decline and thinking, no, we can turn things around
51:49
And thanks to our caller from Manchester, we know that, in fact, he has put his money where his mouth is, or put our money where his mouth, put your money where his mouth is, and done it in Stockpool
52:04
And then we come to Andrew Harper's killers, who previous prime ministers, two or three previous prime ministers, it's so hard to keep up, have looked at, and justice secretaries and attorney generals and the rest of it, they have looked at it
52:18
and they have said nothing can be done. And I think that the role that a pundit a gob on a stick like me plays in this process is sometimes unhelpful You can do things in two ways can you I never thought of this before
52:37
So, on the one hand, you can erroneously and quite dishonestly pretend that a problem is easy to fix
52:44
So you can sit here talking about, for example, small boats, or big boats, as I presume we're going to have to start calling them soon
52:50
and I could invite you to ring in with your solutions and respectfully, your solutions will be either ridiculous or illegal
52:56
and usually very cruel and I can sort of stroke my chin and go
53:02
oh, I hadn't thought of that and I'd be lying to you and you wouldn't be lying to me
53:06
I'd be lying to you and we'd all be pretending that this was feasible. But the corollary of that, if that's the right word to use
53:13
would be to think, well, if it was possible to fix it, they would have fixed it by now
53:17
I probably found myself slipping into that route with regard to channel crossings
53:23
and then lo and behold they managed to reduce them by 44% year on year so it's possible that things can be done
53:28
that there are solutions to a problem but a lot of things that haven't been done
53:34
politicians haven't done it you look at and you think well if it was possible to do it
53:41
then they would have done because they'd be daft not to right do you see what I mean
53:44
you just look at a problem and you can either turn it into a lazy..
53:48
Unfortunately, some politicians these days seem to think that politics is a lazy..
53:52
Oh, send all the prisoners to El Salvador. That's exactly what a phone caller to LBC
53:57
might have said five years ago and it is unfortunately utterly unworkable
54:01
But that, of course, doesn't matter. That doesn't matter. The choice you have
54:06
and I've never noticed the negative side to this before, the choice you have when presented with a really difficult problem
54:12
or the choice we sometimes make when presented with a really difficult problem
54:15
is either to pretend that there are simple solutions or to conclude honestly that there aren't any
54:25
Because if there were a solution to this problem, then all the other people would have implemented it
54:31
Because you've all had a crack at it. You've all had a go at it. It's a bit why
54:34
It's a bit how to stay with the boats for a moment. It's a bit... It's why you end up with these ridiculous scenarios
54:40
where people like Honest Bob Jenrick and Suella Braverman leave the party that presided over an explosion of channel crossings
54:51
not just presided over, but whose policies caused an explosion in channel crossings
54:55
and they hold roles like Home Secretary or Immigration Minister, and then they hop over to a new party and start gnashing their teeth and clutching their pearls about it
55:05
I mean, it's palpably absurd. But if you're in the business of not being able to deliver a meaningful solution when you have power
55:12
what choice have you got when you've not got power than to pretend that it's actually really easy to solve
55:17
just please don't mention the fact that I didn't solve it. So those are the two camps that you have
55:22
when presented with a political problem. People with power who haven't fixed it
55:27
and therefore lead or tempt some of us to conclude that it's unfixable
55:31
and those who don't have power who pretend that it's easy which is probably something that politicians should leave to phone-in hosts
55:40
Let us pretend that all these things or let our callers pretend things have got nice and easy solutions
55:43
and we can either wave you through without any challenge or we can tear you to shreds live on the radio
55:50
But politicians pretending that there are easy solutions to complicated problems, history has taught us are very, very dangerous
55:57
Let's send all the prisoners to El Salvador. Which brings us to Andrew Harper
56:03
and this curious dissonance again between what we want him to do, Andy Burnham in this case
56:13
and what he can do. So it's hard to think of a better example
56:18
I don't know why I brought small boats into it, never mind big boats, because it's hard to think of a better example
56:24
Your Prime Minister, there's two people in jail, right, who should be staying in jail
56:28
Pretty much everybody thinks so, if you see the case in complete isolation
56:37
But they're coming out of jail because the system demands it. Andy Burnham comes along and says
56:45
no, that's not going to happen. He's actually gone further. That's why I paused there
56:50
I was just handed... That's not why I paused. But he said this morning he does not want a single prisoner released early
56:56
and he's very keen to address public concern over the issues. In Derbyshire on a visit, the Prime Minister said
57:02
I don't want to see a single prisoner released early and that's the spirit that I've brought into the first three weeks
57:07
that I've served as Prime Minister, and I've always worked like that. I've never taken no for an answer
57:12
I'm turning into him now, so let me rephrase that. I've never taken no for an answer. Not in the past, dealing with Hillsborough and other issues
57:18
and not now, when I'm facing the situation that I'm looking at now. It's always been my style. I won't give up
57:23
and I believe there is more I can do. It's my job to speak up for the public on this issue
57:27
I take that duty very seriously. I don't know why I'm reading this out. We could have played his voice, couldn't we
57:31
we could have actually had the authentic voice of Andy Burnham reading out this instead of my middle class cost of tones
57:38
I take that duty very seriously indeed and I'm confident that there's more that can be done and will be done to address public concerns
57:43
So it's the perfect example of what I'm talking about. I look at it, regardless of who's in charge actually
57:50
and think, well, if the Attorney General says it can't be done, I don't care what colour scarf the Attorney General is wearing
57:58
If a Conservative Attorney General says it can't be done and we change government, I still think it can't be done
58:04
Because why would the Attorney General lie? It's not necessarily a question of lying
58:09
It's a question of not digging deep enough or not shrugging. Do you see what I mean
58:16
I'm desperate now to knit together these two theories. The theory of the shrug and the theory of the simple solution to a complicated problem
58:24
He is essentially saying, I don't care who has concluded that it can't be done
58:29
I am Prime Minister and like Jean-Luc Picard on the bridge of the USS Enterprise
58:36
he is simply saying to his Justice Secretary make it so make it so
58:43
make it so that Andrew Harper's killers stay in jail even though as I understand it
58:53
the current legal frameworks make it... Well, Downing Street themselves said impossible yesterday
59:04
How do you police there? How do you walk this tightrope? As an observer, as a punter, as a voter
59:08
never mind as a pundit. Yesterday, Downing Street said it was impossible
59:13
The spokesman, a Downing Street spokesman, yesterday said it was impossible. Today, Andy Burnham is saying
59:20
you've got to do it. You've got to find a solution. You've got to keep these two particular criminals in jail
59:26
because the crime that they committed has, well, I think it's fair to say
59:30
that the crime they have committed has engendered such strong public opinion
59:34
and media pressure that you're going to have to keep these killers in jail
59:40
And he has indeed announced himself overnight confident of success. So, there's part of you that loves this, right
59:47
Flipping heck. Here's a Prime Minister who's been told by, and then insert your sort of pet peeve
59:53
the men in grey, the suits, the blob, the woke majority, The Prime Minister has been told by..
1:00:00
the, quote, experts, end quotes, that it can't be done, and he has said, I'm not taking that, I'm not accepting that
1:00:08
Do it. Make it so. He's told his Justice Secretary to draw up plans
1:00:13
to prevent the early release of PC Andrew Harper's killers, and he has told them to present those plans to Parliament
1:00:20
at the first opportunity. He's even announced himself increasingly confident that a solution could be found, and here's the bit
1:00:28
despite stark warnings from officials that it would be impossible to prevent the release
1:00:34
of these two men, who I don't particularly want to name, not least because every time I see their names
1:00:39
I see the pictures of them grinning at their friends as they were being taken down from the dock
1:00:43
having been found guilty of P.C. Harper's manslaughter. He said, Burnham, that he's never accepted
1:00:49
that he must choose between releasing perpetrators of rape, grooming, and the killers of police officers
1:00:55
as in you can release one of them, but you can't release the other. The new Justice Secretary, whose name you could be forgiven for not having on speed dial yet, Alex Norris, has been told to find a solution before Parliament returns next month
1:01:09
So, 0345 6060973. What are you going to think if this works
1:01:20
I would now be very surprised if it didn't. But Andy Burnham is doing things differently
1:01:28
he is doing things differently which makes me think this will now work
1:01:34
if you were using the old rules of politics here you would be saying things like
1:01:41
he's expended too much political capital he's shown too much ankle he's written his name now on the release being prevented
1:01:48
there's no way it can't happen you wouldn't necessarily want to be Alex Norris
1:01:53
you wouldn't necessarily want to be the Justice Secretary charged with delivering what was yesterday
1:01:59
according to Downing Street, impossible. Actually, just think about that. Can you do this, please
1:02:04
Hang on, who are you? Oh, I'm from Downing Street. What? The same Downing Street that said it was impossible yesterday
1:02:11
Yeah. That's us, mate. What's your problem? Well, you're asking me to do something today, on Tuesday
1:02:16
that you said was impossible on Monday. This sounds like a James O'Brien monologue
1:02:21
There's no earthly way that we can do on Tuesday something that we said was impossible. Sorry, pal, that's your job
1:02:25
but you've got to do it. Give me a ring when it's sorted, see you in Parliament at the end of recess to announce it
1:02:31
But what are you going to think if this happens? What are you going to think
1:02:37
Okay? 0345 6060 973. I don't know that this is healthy. I said to you last week
1:02:47
if I was Prime Minister, I'd just keep them in jail. I'd do whatever needs to be done to keep them in jail
1:02:51
because it's a massive PR win. And then I said to you
1:02:54
thank goodness I'm not Prime Minister, because the Prime Minister should not be in the business
1:02:58
of pursuing PR wins without being properly mindful of the consequences. Without being properly mindful of the consequences
1:03:08
And the consequences are, as I understand it, that you could have an avalanche of cases being brought
1:03:14
saying that we are being discriminated against, or that we should be treated differently as well
1:03:21
Victims in particular are coming forward to say, How can you be releasing the person who killed my dad
1:03:25
when you didn't release the person who killed Andrew Harper? I'm not a lawyer
1:03:31
There will be lawyers listening. I don't know how qualified they will be to provide definitive..
1:03:36
There's no such thing as definitive advice. That's why we have judges. You have two lawyers arguing with each other
1:03:41
and then a judge takes a view. But if you had a different judge, you might have ended up with a different view. There's three bits, three moving parts here
1:03:48
for me at least. The first is... why Andy Burnham is doing it
1:03:56
The second is, whether or not it is going to succeed, to which I think the answer is now
1:04:02
yeah, probably. And the third is, the bit I'm most interested in
1:04:06
what are you going to think if it does happen? Is it going to make you think better of Andy Burnham
1:04:14
I don't think it's going to make anyone think worse of him. So, if this happens
1:04:20
what does it do to your attitude to Andy Burnham if he pulls this off as it were
1:04:28
also a couple of you have pointed out that there's no way Downing Street
1:04:33
or you're suggesting there's no way Downing Street would have said yesterday that it's impossible
1:04:36
without checking with him first so they've kind of played us a bit maybe say it's impossible
1:04:41
and then I'll come out tomorrow and say that we're going to do it and that is again pursuing a big PR victory
1:04:47
so let's say he does it that he somehow finds a way
1:04:53
that Alex Norris somehow finds a way to keep these particular killers, these two prisoners serving 13 years each for manslaughter in jail
1:05:03
but can't change the rules for all the other people currently serving sentences for the same offence
1:05:08
What, what, yeah, all right. I mean, goodness knows I go on a bit
1:05:12
What will you think, all right? What will you think if this happens
1:05:16
0-3-4-5-6-0-6-0-9-7-3. So in a way, what do you think now? And what will you think if he actually succeeds in delivering
1:05:25
what many people have been simultaneously calling for quite loudly while believing it to be impossible
1:05:31
Because if it was possible, why didn't Keir Starmer's government do it? Why didn't Rishi Sunak's government do it
1:05:36
Short answer, because they weren't due to be released on their watch, but they could have changed the rules to make sure that they never would have been
1:05:42
So I just want to know what you're going to think of this story, of this event, if Andy Burnham manages to deliver it
1:05:48
It's 11.20. James O'Brien on LBC. 22 minutes after 11 is the time
1:05:54
I think that what I'm trying to articulate is the idea that a prime minister
1:05:58
is supposed to do unpopular things because he has to. So you're putting it better than I am
1:06:05
This is from Nick. Burnham is in danger of allowing the pendulum of popularity
1:06:08
versus policy to swing too far in the other direction as an overcompensatory reaction to Starmer
1:06:15
David similarly says, the newspapers smell blood. If they can force Andy Burnham to change the law now, they will make his life hell
1:06:24
You're looking at justice by newspaper headlines. And I kind of want you to tell me whether you agree with that
1:06:32
Or whether this issue can be ring-fenced in a way that means it can be almost unique
1:06:39
It can be specific. In a way, I want you to ring me and tell me something that I'm not prepared to say on the radio myself
1:06:46
Because I don't mean it. give me a ring and tell me why they shouldn't be released early
1:06:52
that that maybe is the best way into the question of why what andy burnham's doing is potentially
1:06:58
problematic while also being in the short term incredibly popular oh three four five six oh six
1:07:04
oh nine seven three give me a ring and tell me why they shouldn't be released early because i think
1:07:12
it's important to hear those arguments and to hear those voices in a media environment that has gone
1:07:16
a little bit, understandably, because it's such a horrible crime and such an emotive murder, manslaughter
1:07:23
it important to remember why yesterday it was impossible John in Manchester Oh a very Northwest heavy show today John I here for it What would you like to say
1:07:35
Yeah, this is about political will, as it always is. Is it
1:07:39
And just on your point about the Attorney General, you made a point about the Attorney General there before you said
1:07:45
why would he lie? It would not be the first time that an Attorney General
1:07:49
or any other type politician has lied. The Attorney General lied in 2003
1:07:54
when he lied us into a war and he said it was legal. So this is..
1:07:58
I think that's still... This is why I say it's about political will. It's still debatable, though, isn't it
1:08:03
That Lord Goldsmith initially... Oh, you're making me swat up now on stuff I can't remember
1:08:10
It was Lord Goldsmith. Let's move to the point about political will. Yes, but let me just clarify that
1:08:15
I don't think that's a statement you can make with your full chest. I think it would be disputed
1:08:19
No, no, I dare to do that. I would dare to do that. No, I know, but you're not going to get sued for libel by Lord Goldsmith
1:08:24
I am. So it is not the case that he concedes or believes
1:08:28
that he lied about that. And in answer to the question of why would an Attorney General
1:08:32
do it, the answer would be because enormous pressure was being brought to bear upon him by a Prime
1:08:36
Minister who was desperate to go to war with George W. Bush. So it's a different but similar
1:08:40
story. And I just wanted to clarify those two things. Now, fill your boots. Now, political will
1:08:46
And I'm not a great fan of any politician in particular but Andy Burnham, to be fair
1:08:52
to him, has shown political will in the past. In 2009, he was told to shut the schools
1:08:58
of 60,000 people would die from swine flu. He didn't. He showed
1:09:02
political will. He didn't shut the schools. He didn't close down society
1:09:06
60,000 people did not die. And I think we need to do this. Politicians need
1:09:12
to be brave enough to do this more often. Question experts. Experts like the Attorney General, who
1:09:17
throws his arms up and says, oh, this can't be done. It can be done if you have the political will
1:09:24
And he does. But is it a political will or is it a populist will
1:09:29
Is it a will that people want dangerous criminals who have killed enforcers of the law in prison
1:09:38
I think the population wants that. You can call it all the names you want, James
1:09:43
No, but they are in prison. They are. And we want them
1:09:46
And they will get out at some point. They will. But the longer they're in there, the better for society
1:09:53
Or the better for public opinion. What's public opinion? Is it better for society, James
1:10:01
that dangerous criminals who have killed law enforcers are in prison for as long as they should be
1:10:07
Well, is it better for society that they stay there when they are adjudged to no longer be dangerous
1:10:12
Who makes that judgment? The authorities, the people that you're saying political will should overcome
1:10:19
Has that judgment been called as a question? So you're talking, you're responding to my points too quick
1:10:23
Hang on, you're responding. Just stop for a minute. You're talking too quickly
1:10:28
I'm struggling to keep up with you, but I don't want you to gloss over the point I just made
1:10:32
because you asked me who makes that decision and that's the point, isn't it
1:10:36
It will be parole officers and probation officers. You have to let me finish, John
1:10:41
You're too quick for me. You have to let me finish. You're too quick for me, all right
1:10:45
Because you asked me that question and I'm not sure that you're listening to my answer
1:10:50
I'm not sure that political will should be a card that trumps the system or the parole officer
1:10:57
I certainly don't think public opinion should be something that trumps the parole officers
1:11:01
the prison system, the justice framework. Hang on, you're talking too quickly again
1:11:06
You can't possibly have taken on board what I've just said because I haven't yet. Go on, go on. So do you see, you're essentially saying political will should overcome the rule of law
1:11:16
No, I'm not. You are. Because these people were assigned a specific sentence
1:11:23
and now they're being let out early. Well, then everybody, then nobody can be let out early
1:11:29
I'm sorry? Then nobody can be let out early. Are they being let out before their sentence has expired
1:11:37
Yes, everybody is. What sentence were they given? What sentence were they given and are they being let out early
1:11:42
Yes, 14 years and yes, but everybody is being let out early. Everyone convicted of similar crimes
1:11:46
Everybody shouldn't be let out early, James. That's why the question is about these two, not about everybody, mate
1:11:53
Come on, this should be clear to you. It's not a question about whether we approve of early release schemes
1:11:58
Unfortunately, for the very simple reason that you can't fill a bucket twice
1:12:01
we've got no choice to let out prisoners before their sentences are over
1:12:05
No, we don't, because the alternative is to send people who got convicted today
1:12:09
somewhere other than prison. So let's focus on the case in hand
1:12:13
because I think it may be my fault you've misunderstood the question, Well, what's the question then
1:12:20
The question was, should we let them out early? These two? Yes. And all the others
1:12:26
And all the others should stay in prison. And what you need is somebody with political will
1:12:30
So should you treat these two differently from everybody else? On that point, I don't care
1:12:36
I don't care about the money you say. You have to. I don't care about the money you say of this, James
1:12:41
What I'm saying to you is, I want a politician in there with a political will
1:12:46
to keep all of them in. Every one of them. Yeah, okay
1:12:50
Not just... So that's not the phone-in that we're having, though, is it? If he's going to cherry-pick... Yes
1:12:56
...two people who have killed law enforcers... Yes. ...then I'd say, I'll take that deal
1:13:01
I'll take that deal for now. But I would want a politician in there with the political will
1:13:05
to keep all of them in. Well, that's not going to happen, unless we build, like, 10 new prisons
1:13:10
Well, that's very sad, isn't it, James? That's very sad, and it shows the weakness of the system, doesn't it
1:13:14
And it shows the anti-democratic will of the people is not being, the democratic will of the people is not being adhered to
1:13:21
And that's not good, is it, James? Well, the early release scheme is a consequence, as you probably know
1:13:27
of a decade and a half of failure to, well, A, run the justice system efficiently
1:13:32
and B, have enough prison places for right-wing policies that think that..
1:13:36
Well, why don't I tell you what? You can't let me finish a single sentence. This must be what it feels like to ring me normally
1:13:42
It's supposed to be the other way around. where are all the texts attacking John for talking over people and sounding like..
1:13:47
So there's a fascinating piece in The Observer at the weekend about what they've done in Scandinavia and the re-offending rate
1:13:54
Because if you are genuinely interested in what's best for society, the re-offending rate and the rehabilitation successes are off the charts
1:14:02
I disagree with you about what's best for society. What's best for society is to take a huge number of prisoners
1:14:08
who are either illiterate or neurodiverse who have come from poor, deprived backgrounds
1:14:15
and turn them into people that aren't going to re-offend again. That's the best thing. Otherwise, we keep everybody locked up
1:14:20
The prisons get bigger and bigger and bigger, and eventually the whole country sinks under the weight
1:14:24
of the metal doors that you'd need to keep them all banged up. So I do disagree with you fundamentally about that
1:14:30
And you can't make up your own phone-in. Only I'm allowed to do that
1:14:34
And this phone-in is about whether or not Andy Burnham should, to use your phrase, put the political will
1:14:40
or the public opinion card on the table and trump the whole system
1:14:45
You can't respond to that by saying, well, I don't like the system, because he's not ripping up the system
1:14:50
He is saying, here's a card that overplays, it's like I'm putting down a joker
1:14:54
and none of these other cards count anymore And that I don think is something that we should be so casual about But James if this is the thin end of the wedge Oh don use that phrase John
1:15:05
If this is the thin end of the wedge that will correct the system in the right direction, I'm all for it
1:15:11
And rehabilitation be damned? Rehabilitation. Reoffending rates be damned and thin end of the wedge
1:15:17
It's normally a bit of a red flag, that phrase. But anyway, I hear you. So you'd come out of this thinking that Andy Burnham..
1:15:23
it's quite a long conversation that John and I'm not entirely sure that I can
1:15:27
neatly pricey what you're going to come out of this thinking about Andy Burnham it'd be good if he did it
1:15:32
but he should have done a lot more anyway and everyone who's
1:15:35
currently set to be released from prison early which is everyone and they
1:15:39
were released from prison early long before the early release scheme came in the sentence
1:15:43
that you're handed in a court is never the sentence that you are actually required to serve unless
1:15:49
you misbehave in prison so I don't know i mean maybe that is populism 101 here's dominic ellis with your headlines james o'brien
1:15:58
on lbc this is the story of the week i think um andy burnham's determination to prevent the early
1:16:06
release of andrew harper pc andrew harper's killers he's veiled while we've been on air to
1:16:11
keep close to the family there's also reports it's a bit tricky sometimes when it says breaking news
1:16:17
on the screen because it may not be breaking at all they just stick that up there to draw our eyes
1:16:21
But I've heard the suggestion that women's prisons could be repurposed pretty quickly to accommodate men
1:16:27
which means women who have committed crimes would walk free, while men convicted of the same crimes would not, presumably
1:16:35
That's another phone-in. At least he's keeping us busy. And then No Hostages poses a question that I don't think I've asked you yet
1:16:42
And he poses it very powerfully. Does your caller, I think referencing John in Manchester
1:16:46
think that people who kill police officers should be treated more harshly
1:16:54
than someone who killed a nurse or a teacher, your granny or a child
1:16:59
And I don't think that's a rhetorical question. Because here's a text picking up on it
1:17:05
They should not allow people convicted of killing emergency workers, whether it's murder or manslaughter
1:17:10
to have any discount on their sentences. This is the view, I believe, of the huge majority of the country
1:17:16
I mean, I can't count the huge majority of the country, but I think I can live with a different tariff
1:17:22
for people who've killed emergency workers or public servants. I mean, I might struggle to make a conclusive or definitive list
1:17:35
of people who risk their lives to protect ours. If you kill one of them
1:17:43
you get an even more big punishment than you do if you kill me
1:17:47
I don't really want to think of any other family members in that category when we're talking about being killed
1:17:51
But I think... I mean, is there a reason why? Is there a reason why you wouldn't think that
1:17:59
If your job is to run towards danger when I'm in danger
1:18:06
or possibly running away from it, and you get killed in the line of duty
1:18:13
is it so unreasonable? this law? I think it was Rishi Sunak's government that introduced it
1:18:20
I don't know that it is. No, Hostages, one of my favourite correspondents
1:18:24
has sent that question in. I don't think it's meant to be rhetorical. Why would we not want to live in a society
1:18:29
where people who kill police officers get treated more harshly than people who kill nurses, teachers, your granny or a child
1:18:38
I don't know. It's a question we can add to the list. 03456060973
1:18:43
Although, where does it stop? Do you extend it to all key workers? You know, all of the people that we were banging saucepans for during COVID
1:18:51
They go above and beyond. Any job that involves a genuine slice of patriotism
1:18:58
Do you get a greater tariff for killing a politician than you do for killing a pub landlord or a milkman
1:19:03
I don't know. That would be a fairly difficult one to sell
1:19:07
because, unfortunately, we live in an age, whether rightly or wrongly, most people don't think that politicians are necessarily people performing patriotic duties
1:19:18
I don't know about this, actually. And if I'd lost a loved one who wasn't a police officer
1:19:27
actually, that's the call I want, isn't it? Someone who's currently serving a sentence for killing someone you love
1:19:33
who's not a police officer. What do you think? do you think that Andrew Harper's killers
1:19:39
should serve longer sentences than your loved one's killers? I'd be surprised if I've got that listener
1:19:45
Or at least if you are listening, that you would feel comfortable calling in
1:19:49
to tell me what you think. And you're only one view. There'll be two people in that position
1:19:54
who've got different opinions. But that's the key question, isn't it? If your mum had been killed
1:20:02
or your dad or your husband, let's say, had been killed, either at work or not
1:20:07
by a horrible person, or persons, and they're due for early release
1:20:15
I think you'd probably just take the win, wouldn't you, and say, well, it's better that one person's killers stay in
1:20:19
even if my loved one's killers don't. I don't know, though, because it's systemic, this
1:20:24
Andy Burnham's going to make an exception for him, but not for you
1:20:29
Nick's in Dudley. Nick, what would you like to say? Hi, James. I don't think Andy can get involved in this
1:20:35
I don't think he should. I think you have to have a clear separation between politics and the judiciary
1:20:41
And what you have to recognise as well is that this law for emergency workers
1:20:45
was brought in after this offence. Yes, I know. Well, it's called Harper's Law, isn't it
1:20:49
I think it's his law in a way. So you can't retrospectively punish them for..
1:20:55
I've got no sympathy for these chaps. I feel very, very conflicted in making this argument
1:20:59
But my point is you can't move the goalposts backwards. and linking to what you've just said a minute ago
1:21:05
about, you know, somebody else's killer was released and obviously not in that position
1:21:10
But you're saying to somebody, PC Harper's death is more important than your family member's death
1:21:19
Therefore, we're going to lock them up for longer and that isn't fair. What you need to do..
1:21:23
Well, that's where we are already, as you say, because of the law. It's just that his actual killers
1:21:28
aren't going to be subject to that law. But moving forward, if you kill an emergency worker
1:21:31
you will be treated differently from someone who kills you or me, Nick
1:21:36
Perish the thought. No, I agree. But I think in the same way that you have a whole life term
1:21:42
you may need to just make some slight amendments to it will be a full-term sentence
1:21:46
You will not be eligible for early beliefs. That would be the easiest way around it
1:21:51
But Andy Burnham needs to be very, very careful for what he gets involved with
1:21:55
because the next time this comes up, there will be precedent set
1:22:01
you got involved in this one for PC Harper's Killers, you should be getting involved in this one
1:22:07
and then you're in a very, very, you're on a very difficult and sticky wicket for which ones are more important than others
1:22:13
The simplest approach is to have a blanket response on not getting involved, that's for the judiciary
1:22:17
And the people in that offender category, for what's the better term
1:22:22
are going to be subject to early release. Now like it will lump it we can do that What he should be doing is potentially actually using this as leverage to argue that more money in the justice system because that affects not just criminals but also victims
1:22:36
And saying, look, if we've got better probation services, if we'd have more capacity to keep these people locked up
1:22:43
so I'm going to announce there are many million to do this, and that means that these victims and their families can take solace
1:22:49
in the fact that those people are going to be behind bars for longer. Yeah, I see. I think you're probably right
1:22:54
but as you say, you don't really want to be that guy, do you? Saying, no, let them out
1:22:58
Because that's, I mean, you can make all the intellectual arguments you want
1:23:02
but ultimately the headline that they would write about you would be Nick and Dudley wants them to be released
1:23:08
You don't particularly want them to be released. You just understand why, in the great scheme of things
1:23:13
it would be a bigger negative, and it might even be 52, 48. It doesn't, it's not black and white or a zero sum
1:23:19
It would be more bad than good, because what it says about the rule of law, what it says about the importance of not moving goalposts, basically
1:23:27
Absolutely. Absolutely. I think if he'd got... He's come out with obviously a lot of rhetoric and stuff like that
1:23:34
in the first couple of weeks of his premiership. If he had ambitions to change the justice system
1:23:40
this would be the way in, for the reason I've just said. We're going to put more money into the justice system
1:23:45
so that we can have lesser dangerous people on the streets and keep the bad guys locked up
1:23:52
And yet, in the meantime, he is going to somehow finesse the continuing incarceration of these two people
1:24:01
which, I mean, if it happened, you're not going to be out on the streets with a placard, are you
1:24:05
You're just going to think, oh, that's probably a mistake. And that's part of his calculation as well
1:24:09
That's quite a cynical political calculation. The people who are right won't be that upset about this, will they? no
1:24:19
but if you but if you take but if you if you act on
1:24:23
facts not feeling James to use an O'Brienism yeah if you're if you're in the next
1:24:28
cell along and you get released having committed in a sense at the same time
1:24:32
for the for an offence and given a similar sentence length and released at the same time
1:24:36
is that justice because it should be proportioned to the crime committed yeah and and yeah
1:24:44
no you're right should be treated equally yeah and it I mean as I say, I think it will be a large part
1:24:49
of the calculation will be, well, who's going to be upset? People who, I've just thought about things
1:24:55
for a little bit longer, and I don't mean that in a patronising or condescending way
1:24:59
because these are stories where your feelings almost always overcome the facts
1:25:03
and if Andy Burnham is legislating for people's feelings, and ignoring essential facts, and
1:25:09
you know, good luck to him, let's hope that it doesn't have repercussions or set a
1:25:13
precedent for other cases, because it's going to haunt him potentially, I agree with Nick about that
1:25:18
I agree with most of what Nick said, but you come to a point where what happens next time
1:25:23
there's a case that is very... Look, you don't even need to say tabloid-friendly
1:25:29
or media-friendly, you just need to say emotive. A very emotive case
1:25:34
And Andy Burnham will have demonstrated that if all the lawyers come out and say it can't be done
1:25:38
and all of the attorney generals have come out and said it can't be done and three different justice secretaries have said it can't be done
1:25:45
and Andy Burnham comes along and says, yes, it can be done, it will be done, make it so, and it's done
1:25:52
then every single time there's something emotive in the news, he's going to be called upon to
1:25:57
maybe that's the calculation he's made and thinks I can live with it. I'll be able to explain to people why I can't do it this time
1:26:02
And in fact, he could even use this case as an explanation
1:26:06
Look, you know I would if I could, because I did when I could. But this time I could. I don't know
1:26:10
It's a good question, though. I'm glad I'm not Prime Minister. James O'Brien on LBC
1:26:14
11.48, have a little listen to this because bearing in mind what we've heard so far
1:26:20
I think this really cuts to the heart of what we're talking about
1:26:24
listen to why Andy Burnham is doing what he's doing and then we'll return to the question of whether he should be
1:26:30
I've heard the depth of concern felt across the country about the potential release of the killers of PC Andrew Harper
1:26:40
and obviously I feel for the family and the anguish that they're going through
1:26:47
What I have done since I came into office is push the system every single day to go further
1:26:54
I've not accepted it's impossible to do more. I believe there is more that can be done
1:27:00
So today I have asked the Justice Secretary to present a plan in early September to Parliament
1:27:08
to go further so that we do not have to release as many people early
1:27:14
And that plan will include issues like returning more foreign national offenders
1:27:21
to their country of origin and looking at the injustice of IPP sentences
1:27:26
which have led to young people or young when they were imprisoned
1:27:30
being imprisoned indeterminately. And that clearly is unfair. So if you break that into four parts
1:27:37
I'm worried about the first one. I really like the second one. third one again worried
1:27:43
fourth one yeah great the reason why I'm uncomfortable with the second
1:27:47
bit is the depth sorry the first bit depth of concern why are we doing this
1:27:53
depth of concern from the public where does that come from who woke up thinking about
1:27:59
this case unless the story had been put there by people like me
1:28:04
should that really be what informs the Prime Minister's decision to do something
1:28:12
then the bit I love. Why do we accept that this is how the system works
1:28:15
Why can't it work differently? Why can't it work differently? It doesn't matter whether you're talking about high streets or prisoners
1:28:21
And then towards the end, some ways that you could improve things, the IPPs, the indeterminate sentences
1:28:26
we've talked about that on the programme. We didn't talk about recalls. I think that should really be on the list
1:28:33
The idea that people are being recalled to jail who haven't committed crimes
1:28:37
They've breached the condition of their probation. or parole. I'm never 100% sure what the difference is
1:28:42
between parole and probation, but you take my point. They haven't actually committed an objective crime
1:28:47
They've breached their release condition, so they're back in jail, having a look at that. People on remand, maybe releasing women
1:28:55
I don't know that public concern, the depth of concern, should be enough
1:29:00
Ian's in Lancaster. Ian, what would you like to say? Hi, James. I had a feeling
1:29:05
you were to cover this topic today, so I kept my ear tuned to the radio
1:29:09
Flattering, thank you. Cheers for having us on. So yeah, basically, I don't feel Andrew Harper's killers should be released
1:29:19
Not because he's a police officer or was a police officer or that doesn't influence it at all
1:29:25
I think it comes down more to the complete disregard for the law of the perpetrators. Yes
1:29:34
The reason I feel that is you basically go to prison for two reasons or you know you basically go there to be punished
1:29:42
but also to be rehabilitated and in terms of earlier prisoner release you really have to
1:29:51
question rehabilitation and if you look at the attitude of his killers you know that if every
1:29:59
They might not remember the detail, but they tried to steal the quad bike initially, got seen off by the person who lived in the house, then came back later that day for a second go
1:30:13
So that was the attitude you're dealing with. But then to add insult to injury, you've got, as you've spoken about today, the photographic evidence and the core evidence of their attitude in court, you know, mocking the system
1:30:28
But this isn't... I'm not arguing with anything you've said about the feelings it engenders
1:30:35
and that smirk, that twin smirk is hideous to witness. I mean, equally, we don't know for sure whether or not
1:30:41
they've undergone some extraordinary process of rehabilitation. I'm happy to join you in thinking that that's unlikely
1:30:47
But this isn't our call. And it's not the Prime Minister's call either
1:30:52
The sentence is set by the court. You can't turn around later and say, hang on a minute
1:30:58
the public are very unhappy about this, let's override the sentence that was handed down by the court
1:31:05
Where does it end? Where does it end, Ian? Who's next? Who's up next for you and me to decide
1:31:10
whether or not they get early release or not? Because if they get a release
1:31:14
it should be based on rehabilitation and proof... Yeah, but it isn't. You can't answer a question about a case
1:31:22
by answering a question about a system. We can all agree we don't like the system
1:31:26
Andy Burnham doesn't like the system. The system needs fixing. But this isn't a question about the system
1:31:30
This is a question about a case. And if in this case you allow, let me get the words right
1:31:35
it's a depth of concern to override the justice system, then where does it end
1:31:42
Who's next? Well, didn't they do the same thing with Jamie Bolger's killers initially
1:31:48
I can't remember, actually. I think that had more... Certainly the original point was not to disclose their identity
1:31:57
Yeah. I don't know that they were kept in jail differently from how other people would have been
1:32:02
I mean, in a way, that phone-in would be even trickier because are you really going to argue that a child
1:32:07
is more culpable for a murder than an adult? So should a child..
1:32:10
It's not that. No, I'm not coming from that angle. I'm coming from the point of you can overturn laws
1:32:18
You know, you can intervene. I figure who it was... On a specific case
1:32:23
Well, you obviously can, because they're going to do it. But he's told us why he's doing it, Ian
1:32:27
and he's doing it because of depth of public concern. So if I'm a newspaper owner
1:32:33
or, God forbid, a renter gob on the radio, I can help create higher levels of public concern
1:32:40
And I'm not sure that that's the rationale that a prime minister should be acting on
1:32:45
But I think if the public have concern, it's not that the Prime Minister would necessarily react to that
1:32:53
It's that if you're going through... He's just said it, that's the phrase he used
1:32:58
Yeah, that's the phrase he used, but, you know, everybody can just hang on to one phrase
1:33:03
can't they, and pin it on that? I'm sure he's got several other phrases
1:33:07
Yeah, we'll agree. I agree, Andy Burnham has more than one phrase in his vocabulary
1:33:12
Yeah, you know, but, you know, it's not even about witch hunts
1:33:17
and, oh, you know, yeah, they don't deserve to come out because this and that. It does come down to rehabilitation
1:33:23
and I think it would be very difficult to convince the general public
1:33:28
that any form of rehabilitation is going to be done. These guys deserve a break of any kind
1:33:32
But then you're back to the system, you see, and there'll be loads of people who are going to be..
1:33:36
Yeah, I get that. Yeah, they are going to be released early who are just as unapologetic
1:33:41
or as unremorseful as these two possibly, probably, we think are, although we don't know
1:33:48
And I really recommend, everybody has a look at the article that a brilliant journalist called Rachel Silvestre
1:33:55
used to be at the Times, she's now at the Observer, wrote this weekend about so-called Scandi wings
1:34:00
in British prisons. They're experimenting with a scheme at Wandsworth Jail in South London and elsewhere
1:34:06
where the staff are hired, they come from a sort of graduate scheme
1:34:13
and it's people who are dedicated to rehabilitation. It's what Ian mentioned
1:34:17
It's a fascinating scheme. This is the first that I'd heard about it. They're called Vanguard Wings
1:34:21
and they've been set up in Wandsworth and Pentonville, two of the most challenging jails in the country
1:34:26
And what makes them different is not the people in there. They include some of the most violent and dangerous men
1:34:31
in the prison system, including some who have previously assaulted staff. But what makes them different is the staff
1:34:39
The prison officers working on the Vanguard Wings are selected on the basis of their commitment
1:34:43
to turning offenders' lives around. This is the Scandinavian approach, the rehabilitative approach
1:34:52
and that's what they're there for. They've had official training, they've had different training, additional training
1:34:57
they've spent time in a Swedish prison. Last month, some were at the little Scandinavia wing
1:35:02
at the State Correctional Institution in Pennsylvania. That's cats and a dog
1:35:06
I mean, imagine, I think Nigel Farage is complaining about prisoners having colour televisions at the moment
1:35:10
God knows how he'd feel when he finds out that they've got a Zen garden and a therapy room
1:35:14
at one in Donald Trump's United States of America. But if the figures demonstrate that this makes people measurably and considerably less likely to re-offend
1:35:24
why wouldn't you want that to be the system in place? And that informs part of Ian's point about rehabilitation
1:35:30
But unfortunately, if you make an exemption for these two, you send a message to the country that if you shout loud enough
1:35:37
you will get what you want. It is 11.58. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:35:45
And he has decided that it is his job to speak up for the public on this issue
1:35:50
It's two parts now to the Burnham Project that I think we've identified in the last few days
1:35:56
Part one is... What's the phrase I want? I don't want to call him a laxative, a political laxative
1:36:02
because that's a slightly indelicate imagery. But he refuses, like, say, an oil can
1:36:07
he refuses to accept that the machinery can't move he is going to seek to move the machinery
1:36:15
and it's really interesting isn't it how many of the calls we get today being a case in point
1:36:21
from the northwest endorse the idea that he can do this whether you're pointing at the high street
1:36:27
in stockport or whether you're talking about homelessness or other issues or whether you're
1:36:32
Man in Makerfield, who's watched him very closely now for a while, they are much closer to believing it to be possible
1:36:39
than those of us who are coming fairly cold to the Andy Burnham model. So point one is, just because everyone else says it can't be done
1:36:46
doesn't mean it can't be done. Who doesn't welcome that? And then point two is, reflecting public feeling
1:36:55
I am going to speak for the public on this issue, he said today. I take that duty very seriously indeed
1:37:02
And that's a good thing too. It only becomes a bad thing potentially
1:37:07
when he's listening to the loudest voices. James O'Brien on LBC. It is three minutes after 12
1:37:13
just a quick postscript to the conversation we had in the last hour
1:37:17
Back to my correspondent, No Hostages. That's the handle that they use on Blue Sky
1:37:24
More food for thought for you I think Harsher sentences for killing police officers are a good example of the sacralisation of social roles We stop seeing the victim simply as a person and invest the uniform
1:37:35
with a special moral value. The result is a hierarchy of victims. A criminal's conduct should
1:37:43
determine their treatment, not how sympathetic their victims appear to the public. If Burnham
1:37:48
continued in this way, then those who murder homeless drug addicts would be treated better
1:37:52
than those who kill beloved celebrities. And, you know, as you read those words
1:37:57
you can imagine some people nodding along, can't you? And say, yeah, well, homeless drug addicts
1:38:01
of course, if you kill one of those, it's not as bad as if you kill my favourite radio presenter or my favourite actor or pop star
1:38:10
And, I mean, it's, as I said, more food for thought. Four minutes after 12 is the time
1:38:17
We move, I think, inevitably, next to the weather. The climate. The heat wave
1:38:24
There's another one on the way. And, of course, we can see flames engulfing, engulfing the new forest at the moment, started by a van
1:38:34
I sometimes worry that we spend too much time in Idiot's Corner. But, you know, there are people out there who think that it's really relevant that lots of people have been arrested for arson or for starting fires, some deliberately, some by accident
1:38:46
There are concerns in France in particular about people who appear to be a little bit vulnerable getting arrested for throwing cigarette butts around and carelessly throwing a cigarette butt around and causing a fire
1:38:58
The reason why these are not arguments, and I'll explain it a little perhaps more kindly than I did last time, these are not proof that climate change isn't real
1:39:07
It's because climate change doesn't start the fire necessarily. Climate change dries the tinder
1:39:14
okay so i really don't think there's any excuse for clinging on to this ludicrous argument once
1:39:20
it's been politely explained to you it so what happened in the new forest is that a van caught
1:39:26
fire on a road and everywhere around the road was so dry as a consequence of the fact that we
1:39:33
haven't had any rain for about 100 years that it went up like a like a barbecue the new forest
1:39:40
right so it doesn't matter whether or not it started because a van caught fire or because
1:39:45
someone threw a cigarette butt out of their window or because you know some sunlight went
1:39:50
through a magnifying glass do you remember doing that as a kid and and landed on a leaf and the
1:39:55
leaf caught fire doesn't matter it's not the spark that is caused by climate change necessarily
1:40:01
it's the conflagration because climate change has dried out the tinder and increased the temperature
1:40:08
The high temperatures have dried out the tinder. So I really, I don't know
1:40:13
Does it help? I mean, if you are believing that, I'm kind of thinking you've probably made a decision
1:40:17
some time ago to ignore all of the evidence and all of the facts and all of the science
1:40:22
But I don't know. Maybe I can reach you with that simple, simple observation
1:40:29
And last time we talked about this, I lived by the clip, died by the clip
1:40:34
I got kebabbed by the clip because I was trying to articulate the fact
1:40:39
that a lot of us are wandering around simultaneously knowing that this is blooming awful
1:40:45
and there are elements of it that we are finding unawful. You know, the things that you can do on a nice day
1:40:55
that you can't do when it's not a nice day, you are currently doing a lot
1:40:59
But unfortunately, if you hear half of that argument, if you don't hear the bit where I say
1:41:04
you know it's awful, you know it's catastrophic, you know it's apocalyptic, and you only hear me
1:41:09
sounding like an ice cream man celebrating the fact that business is booming, then you're going
1:41:13
to think I'm an idiot, which is often true, but on that occasion it actually wasn't. But it's
1:41:19
interesting to map your personal relationship with what's going on. And Mrs O'Brien and I were
1:41:25
walking the dog last night, and it was a conversation with her that had prompted that
1:41:30
observation a couple of weeks ago about how many of us were thinking well it's nice to eat in the
1:41:34
garden just little things like that but how guilty i feel for having that thought because i'm in a
1:41:40
sense minimizing the response to the apocalypse that's unfolding around us um and and we were out
1:41:48
last night i can't remember who said it first but we're walking through what like you are now a park
1:41:55
where the grass isn't just dry. The grass is, you know, it's gone
1:42:00
That's it now. We've got a weird thing in our garden. When the builder did it, I can't lie to you
1:42:06
I didn't fully understand what he was talking about. You know what happens when I've got builders in. I turn into the lost Mitchell brother
1:42:12
I start talking like an extra from EastEnders. Yeah, all right, mate, yeah, nice one
1:42:16
And he's explaining to me why he's digging some reservoir in the back garden. It's something to do with what happens when the drain overflows
1:42:21
And it meant we got a little digger. It came into the back garden. and I got to drive it around a bit as well, so I was all for it
1:42:27
But I didn't fully understand what he was doing. You all know if you're in the trade
1:42:31
or if you pay attention when people explain things to you. So the middle of our lawn is still green
1:42:36
because there's a blooming great water reserve under there, which is where all the water goes to make sure that our drains don't overflow
1:42:42
Does that make sense? Anyway, whatever. The rest, so it's like an inverted egg with a green yoke
1:42:48
and then almost white now, grass, almost yellow grass. but we were out last night and
1:42:57
I mean it's just extraordinary how dry it, you've had moments where you've noticed it in the past
1:43:03
but it's when you're in parks, if you're a town or a city dweller, it's when you're in parks
1:43:07
that you really take on board how bonkers this is how utterly arid
1:43:13
all of our shared spaces are, all of our green spaces are utterly, utterly
1:43:17
arid and that's not a word I've ever used on the radio before
1:43:21
that's an interesting marker of where we are at the moment, everything is
1:43:26
arid and I can't remember who said it first but it was an acknowledgement
1:43:32
that the novelty the short lived novelty of being able to have
1:43:36
more barbecues than usual and you know, have a vimto in the garden of an evening, that's gone
1:43:41
in fact I bumped into a neighbour yesterday and she said how are you
1:43:45
coping with the weather a week ago we would have been saying are you enjoying
1:43:50
or how are you, but how are you coping? And I said, not well, actually, because I'm starting to get scared
1:43:58
And I don't really know why. It had something to do. It's called a soak away
1:44:02
Well done, everybody. I told you you'd know more about this than I did. Have you got a soak away, Keith
1:44:06
Well, you wouldn't in a flat, would you? Okay, I know you've got air con and awnings
1:44:12
Keith's got awnings. Awnings Keith, they call him now. I don't know why I was getting scared
1:44:19
I don't, I mean, I might ask you, actually, but obviously I'm more interested in whether you're getting scared
1:44:26
That's the thing, isn't it? It's so weird. How many times have we sat here and wondered
1:44:30
what's it going to take? And we watched flash floods. We watched wildfires
1:44:38
A little bit further away than the New Forest, but, you know, not on the other side of the world
1:44:43
or anything like that. We watched behaviour that was, or rather we watched scenes and images that were shocking
1:44:52
on our doorstep metaphorically speaking Is that going to work Is that going to change us and it only yesterday that i fully grasped the fact that fear is the key currency here it fear and
1:45:12
forgive me if this is obvious to you but it took me a while to to get my head around it
1:45:18
we don't like being scared i know we sell more tickets for the ghost train than we do for the
1:45:24
speak your weight machine, but that's managed fear. We know what we're doing
1:45:29
when we're queuing up for the ghost train. We know what we're doing when we're watching a horror film
1:45:32
So, when I say we don't like being scared, don't zinger. Don't zing back at me
1:45:37
by saying, ha ha ha, I think you'll find that Friday the 13th was the most popular
1:45:41
film of 1982. No, we don't like being scared. Uncontrollable fear. Fear of things over which we have no control
1:45:51
Alright? We can give ourselves frissons and thrills of fear by watching films or going on roller coasters or whatever it is
1:45:58
but we don't like fear. Think about death for a moment, if you would
1:46:03
That's fear. You don't want to die. So what do we do when we have fear
1:46:11
Do you remember me telling you in the early days of lockdown that I felt that it would be cowardly to wear a mask
1:46:18
I'm so glad I get to talk to you every day because I can work through the times
1:46:22
when I'm obviously being a bit of a plonker. I'm walking through Leicester Square
1:46:27
I was still coming to work. Not everybody was. Masks were not mandatory
1:46:32
They were not required to wear a mask. But everybody who knew what they were talking about
1:46:36
was kind of going down the better safe than sorry route. Whether you kind of..
1:46:40
Don't phone me about masks, for God's sake, all right? But I'd see people wearing masks
1:46:45
And I've seen people from Asia wearing masks for years in central London, tourists
1:46:51
And I just found myself thinking, well, I'm not going to wear a mask. I'm not going to announce that I'm scared of this virus
1:46:57
I don't want anybody to think that I'm scared. It's a very male thing, isn't it
1:47:02
It's probably a consequence of upbringing. I don't want to look scared
1:47:07
I'm not going to wear a mask. And I articulated that to you. And by explaining to you what I was feeling and what I was doing
1:47:12
I could see pretty clearly how silly I was being. Why would you not wear a mask
1:47:17
Well, I don't want people to think... Because so few people were wearing them. You'd see a bloke wearing one and you'd think
1:47:22
oh, you big girl's blouse, which is pathetic. It's ridiculous to think that
1:47:26
But not only do we not like fear, not only do we not like being scared
1:47:33
we don't like other people knowing that we're scared. It's probably primal, that
1:47:39
It's probably evolutionary. If you know that I'm scared, you're more likely to try and rob me, aren't you
1:47:45
You're more likely to bash me over the head and steal my... I don't know, I usually use the wrong thing here and talk about dinosaur stakes
1:47:52
and you point out that there was no period where dinosaurs were cohabiting with you. But you take my point
1:47:57
If I send out fear, it's like they say about dogs, can sense your fear
1:48:01
Remember when you tell the kids that, or when mum told you that? The dog can sense your fear
1:48:05
So you think, oh God, please don't let the dog sense my fear. You get more scared, but you're putting more effort into not looking like you're scared when you are scared
1:48:11
So we don't like being scared, right? and we don't like people knowing that we're scared
1:48:20
This is a phone-in about being scared. Because I think we should be, shouldn't we
1:48:26
I don't want to hear about power stations in China or even Daily Telegraph editorials
1:48:33
I just want to talk about being scared. And not permanently scared
1:48:38
You know, just walking around last night, looking at the state of the ground I was walking on
1:48:45
and then at my weather app and looking at the fact that it's going to get even hotter
1:48:54
I think Thursday is the killer. No sign of rain on my app. Again, don't act me with that
1:48:59
No sign of rain until Sunday. And last time there was a little rain icon on my app
1:49:04
It didn't actually arrive. It looks like things will get better at the end of this week
1:49:08
but who here thinks that next summer is going to be like a summer in the 80s or a summer in the 90s
1:49:16
And as soon as you start feeling scared, you start putting effort into not feeling scared
1:49:23
And we're back to the Leonardo DiCaprio film. That's why you don't look up
1:49:28
That's why you don't look up, because if you look up, oh my lord, you're scared
1:49:33
So don't look up. I guess last night I couldn't avoid it. And I've walked through parks, of course I have, but just something about my mood, something about the moment, something about the conversation I was having with my wife, just sort of, we both stopped and sort of went, oh, flipping heck
1:49:50
This is really bad. This is really, really bad. Have I got a question for you that goes beyond
1:49:59
Yeah, okay, it's not just are you scared. It's, when did you get scared
1:50:06
When and why did you get scared? I felt a very different type of fear last night
1:50:12
to any that I felt before. I don't like feeling frightened, and I don't want you to know that I'm frightened
1:50:18
but I'm being honest with you because, you know, these things are rather more important
1:50:22
than my misgivings or sensibilities. I just want to know when you started feeling..
1:50:30
Because I'm surprised by the quality of the fear that I felt last night
1:50:34
it's different from anything that I felt before and it will go away again
1:50:38
I mean it already is going away again I'm sitting in an air conditioned studio
1:50:42
I'm not frightened now but just something last night as we walked through the park
1:50:47
about the is it aridity or aridness about the aridity of the terrain
1:50:53
the absolute bone dry nature of it coming shortly after I'd been watching the footage
1:50:59
of a part of the country I know well the new forest up in flames
1:51:03
because a van caught fire and it went off as if the land had been laced with petrol
1:51:09
That's what it went off like. And I just thought this is actually something
1:51:14
that we should be scared, more scared about. So, how scared are you
1:51:23
17 minutes. Seriously, let's just talk about it because it's not necessarily a conversation
1:51:27
that you can be able to have everywhere else. You sit down next to someone in the bus queue
1:51:31
and go, hello, I'm really scared of you. But we can probably have a crack at it
1:51:36
I am frightened of what this means. I'm not even thinking about children
1:51:44
or potential future grandchildren, but this is the direction of traffic now, right
1:51:50
How does this sound to someone who's been scared for 10 years
1:51:54
Because you've got to come up with a better late than never on this. You can't have a crack at us for not having been on board sooner
1:52:00
and don't hate me for the fact that I'm saying I'm going to be less scared tomorrow
1:52:06
I'm going to be less scared this time next week because it will have rained a bit and the temperatures won't be so high
1:52:10
How do we... So how scared are you? When did you get..
1:52:14
How do we hold on to the fear when it's no longer scorchio outside
1:52:21
I don't know that we can as human beings. I think we go back don we Go back to complacency because you can look up at heat when it not hot I want to talk about fear I want you to talk to me about fear 03456060973
1:52:43
And there are other elements to this. Stories about crop failure, mass wildfires becoming an
1:52:48
an annual event. And, of course, mass migration from the places that are considerably worse affected than we are
1:52:55
And you've already seen how some people in this country will talk about refugees and asylum seekers
1:52:59
how they'll treat them. That's something else to be scared of. I might read you that line from 1984
1:53:05
about the refugee being used for target practice and the cinema audience watching it in England cheering
1:53:12
And it's fiction. It's George Orwell. Fear. how scared are you when did you get scared
1:53:20
and how do we stop ourselves becoming unscared again when we know deep down
1:53:29
we don't want to be scared 0345 6060 973 is the number
1:53:37
that you need alright hit the numbers now you will get through we're talking about fear fear 1220
1:53:44
James O'Brien on LBC. It is 21 minutes after 12 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:53:54
An amber warning for extreme heat has been issued by the Met Office for Thursday
1:53:58
where some parts of England could face temperatures of up to 38 degrees centigrade
1:54:02
And alongside that explanation of why, even if a million people are arrested for arson in areas where there have been wildfires
1:54:09
it doesn't challenge the fact that climate change is real and causing wildfires
1:54:14
We must also put the fact that this is not going to be news soon
1:54:19
How far away do you think the day is where we don't say, well, you'll announce it, the Met Office have
1:54:24
but they did that last week and the week before and next week and the week after that
1:54:29
That's terrifying, right? Maybe the phone-in we should be having. Why aren't we more scared
1:54:35
Patrick's in Epsom. Patrick, what made you pick up the phone? Yeah, because the subject today resonates with me
1:54:42
because what I'm afraid of is the individuals that are in charge of making a difference
1:54:48
not making a difference, not taking it seriously, because I believe that there is something that we can do about it
1:54:53
And we're not doing it. We're not doing what we need to do about it. It's not something that's at the forefront of any kind of national emergency
1:55:02
I feel like the suits, the higher ups, the politicians are more into playing their political games
1:55:08
And when I say that, they're more concerned about defense spending than the whole earth being shriveled up into a ball of dryness
1:55:17
And the idea of them not being reactive to this is, I think, is criminal
1:55:23
I think it's criminal. It's tapped them out to lighting a wildfire yourself
1:55:28
They are responsible for the pails of water that douse the heat that this earth is experiencing at the moment
1:55:34
and they're choosing not to douse the planet with what is necessary in order to deal with climate change
1:55:41
It's obvious. Every single year our temperatures are rising. Sorry, excuse me
1:55:45
No, don't say that. Crikey. Since when do I get to tell other people to talk less or be briefer
1:55:53
It's absolutely shocking. And the individuals in... Sorry to just bang on
1:55:58
Fill your boots, Patrick, seriously. The individuals that get put in charge of things like the environment
1:56:04
it seems like they're paper tigers. They have no power. We look at individuals who I think are relatively sincere about their mission
1:56:13
people like Fergal Sharkey, people like Ed Miliband, and they're almost subordinate politicians in the case of Ed Miliband
1:56:25
when he was Environment Secretary. And I don't even understand why it would take somebody like Fergal Sharkey
1:56:31
to be raising awareness about the condition of our waterways and action not being taken in respect to that
1:56:40
You'd think that all you'd need to do is raise the alarm and then the people that are supposed to be taking care of us
1:56:45
would look into it and be like, OK, so our waters are polluted
1:56:49
OK, so the temperatures are affecting the crops. OK, so the temperatures are affecting our green belt
1:56:57
that we hold so dear to our hearts, but not dear enough in order to, in effect
1:57:01
make sure that we do what we need to do in order to protect them fully. I mean, you are obviously right
1:57:07
and yet your depth of feeling is not widely reflected among the population, not just among politicians
1:57:14
but among the population in general as well. It's as if we know that we should be feeling what you're feeling
1:57:18
but most of us are not. When did you feel your thoughts head into this place
1:57:25
For the last 20 years to be. Really? My family and I generally go to a holiday in France in August
1:57:33
and we all tend to travel towards the south of France. So it's quite obvious the further south you get
1:57:40
the more arid it is. But that's always been true, though. But to this extreme
1:57:45
No, well, clearly not. But you were able, because of the annual visit
1:57:49
you were able to clock the ticking, as it were. So in areas that started off hotter
1:57:54
they're ahead of us when it comes to the drying out of the land
1:58:00
James, I tend to holiday initially in a place called Ossia in France
1:58:04
When I first met my wife and we holidayed there, at mid-August, it used to be, it could be overcast
1:58:12
it could be quite rainy. This year, we are leaving the temperatures that we generally head towards
1:58:19
which is quite it just feels strange we're leaving England when the temperatures
1:58:27
are in the mid-30s to head towards our stated goals which is to head towards
1:58:33
the heat of the Mediterranean but we have it right here even more madly
1:58:38
the holiday I was on a month ago in Greece the weather was cooler than it was back home
1:58:42
every time I checked on my phone I don't know what we're supposed to make of that but your central point is true
1:58:47
the fear, how do we do the fear? what do we do with the fear? I think you're a gardener, aren't you, Patrick
1:58:54
Well, myself and my children, we are trying to, in effect, establish some type of self-sustainability
1:58:59
within the space of our garden. But, James, I can't blame the general public
1:59:05
The general public tend to, in effect, believe the news that they are fed
1:59:10
At the moment, we are told that there's an immigration crisis. So that's at the forefront of the working man's mind
1:59:16
when it comes to the problems that we are experiencing in this country. It's the messaging. It's the messaging
1:59:22
It's the people who we pay our taxes to that we rely upon to take care of us
1:59:27
to be honest and truthful. It's the messaging. It is the messaging
1:59:32
And, of course, the prioritisation and the, I don't know, the distraction tactics
1:59:40
Sometimes it's done for populist reasons. Sometimes it's done for reasons that are almost impossible to decipher
1:59:47
Good Lord, Patrick. I mean, and that's part of the problem as well, because you hear someone who's on it
1:59:52
and do you want to be like that? There's no criticism of Patrick whatsoever
1:59:56
but you kind of understand, my friend Emma gets, like, full-on, um, I'm terrified about this. When I allow myself to think about it, I have cut-offs for my
2:00:06
own mental health, my soul shuts down. I know in my bones that we are absolutely doomed as a species
2:00:10
it's a tragedy greater than any genocide, any atom bomb, any massacre we've ever managed
2:00:15
and it's going to happen crushingly, torturously slowly, with everyone biting and clawing to stay
2:00:20
on top of the heap until the very last second that the atmosphere can still support our breathing
2:00:24
I mean, there's an upbeat element to our ysis as well. We can slow it if we all drag in the same direction
2:00:32
It invoices the point that Patrick's making, political decisions against big business, 75% to cover that
2:00:39
but 25% is changing people's mindsets, recognizing that the planet is a living system
2:00:45
And I felt that fear last night. I felt a frisson of that fear. But I'm not going to feel it as deeply and as permanently as Emma does
2:00:52
or as Patrick does. and I kind of want to but don't want to at the same time
2:00:56
and that's part of the problem, isn't it? That's part of the problem is that we do not like being frightened
2:01:02
So let's pretend we're not. And the better you are at pretending, the more effective, obviously, that will be
2:01:10
Sarah's in Lambeth. Actually, Sarah, I'm just glancing at Keith's face, not the clock
2:01:14
I've stopped looking at the clock. I'm just looking at Keith's face now to work out what time it is. Just bear with me a moment
2:01:19
And judging by Keith's face, I haven't got time to take a call from Sarah
2:01:24
So we will get you on first after the news, I promise
2:01:28
It's coming up to half past twelve. I do sometimes, of course, look at the clock. And the other story that I loved this week or today
2:01:37
was the one about Jess Phillips, if you weren't with us earlier, pretending she was sick when it was her turn to go out
2:01:42
and defend Peter Mandelson, former Home Office Minister. Talking to Ian Dale at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival yesterday
2:01:49
said that she'd get the call for backing Mandelson or sticking up for Mandelson
2:01:57
and she'd say, I pretended I was sick. Lovely stuff. It is coming up to half past 12
2:02:03
and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Here is Matt Hewitt
2:02:08
James O'Brien on LBC. 12.32 is the time you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
2:02:15
where the conversation is about fear and why some of us have it and some of us don't or all of us have it but to such varying degrees
2:02:23
that some of us might as well not while others can think of little else and these moments the
2:02:29
new forest is on fire your local park is yellow i mean yellow everywhere is yellow trees will
2:02:36
probably die in the coming weeks as a consequence of the fact that they haven't got anything like
2:02:40
enough water. And Christmas will come. And, I mean, real wallies will say, oh, gosh, freezing
2:02:48
out, so much for global war. I presume that that line of argument is beginning
2:02:52
to diminish in all but the most sort of reformy circles. But, for the rest
2:02:58
of us, we will subconsciously recalibrate and stop being frightened until next summer, when we'll have to get
2:03:03
frightened again. And I just want to talk about fear. Sarah is in Lambeth
2:03:08
Sarah, what would you like to say? Hi. Great to talk to you, James
2:03:12
Thank you for talking about this subject. It's petrified me. Has it really
2:03:17
It has petrified me for about 20 years. 20 years ago, I was doing my PhD
2:03:24
and we had someone from BP. He used to work for BP
2:03:28
and he was now a consultant who came in, really well-dressed, very well put together
2:03:33
looked like he'd stepped out of an Eton poster. he came in to talk to us about how to communicate our science
2:03:40
Okay. And he gave a little bit of background about what he had done. He had been in charge of parts of their marketing or whatever in the Caribbean
2:03:50
and he talked about what a great life it was. I didn't really know anything about the petrochemical industry at the time
2:03:56
Okay. So I kind of, the internet was coming up. I started looking up things
2:04:00
and one of the first things I came across was how the petrochemical industry scientists
2:04:08
were the ones in the 70s and 80s who had been talking about climate change
2:04:12
and they had been shut down. Their lives had been made so difficult
2:04:18
Some of them ended up jobless. It had made their family lives very difficult
2:04:23
They were trying to sound the bells. They were trying to tell people
2:04:28
that this is serious. People need to wake up. But no one listened at the time
2:04:34
And from there, I started looking at other things. I started talking to a couple of friends
2:04:39
I became a science teacher. So that was kind of like fertile soil. Yes
2:04:44
But what I found was there were people educated, really well educated, very well read people
2:04:51
who would not engage with it at all. They wanted nothing to do with it
2:04:57
But I had a couple of friends who were very, very invested in this
2:05:03
They were working. They started working with Just Stop Oil. They started working with Extinction Rebellion
2:05:08
And they were sidelined. People made fun of them. People didn't engage with them
2:05:14
They were really, really harsh about them. But we were like, this is real
2:05:19
This is affecting us now. And as Patrick said, I've worked in the south of France
2:05:24
and I saw the difference there. last year my husband and I decided we're not actually going to go away in the summer
2:05:30
We're paying so much to go away somewhere else. It's the same temperature
2:05:35
And I don't actually like to fly in the first place. No, and of course the impacts of that are relevant as well
2:05:41
We were having that conversation last night actually. I don't know if you're familiar. Do you know Donald Perlman, the lawyer and lobbyist
2:05:47
who was widely regarded as the godfather of climate change? I only learned about him a couple of years ago
2:05:53
because the RSC did a play about him called Kyoto and his attempts to scupper the first big climate deal
2:05:59
But what you reflect is the effort that was put in to ridiculing your friends and colleagues
2:06:04
and to rubbishing the science. Do you think, I don't think that the word optimism
2:06:09
has much place in this conversation, but do you think as we live with the unavoidable consequences
2:06:16
of what you're describing, we are going to get collectively frightened enough to demand political action
2:06:26
I mean, I don't know is the short answer, which is why I'm asking you
2:06:30
So my family is originally from the global south Yeah And I think the power of these decisions still rests with the north Yeah When you see what happens at the climate summits
2:06:45
these people come in, they're impassioned, they've brought in all the evidence
2:06:49
and everything is sidelined or made to seem inferior to the profit margins of the big companies
2:06:57
If you look at how much money the oil companies have made
2:07:00
in the petrochemical industry has made just since the trade-off started. You know, it's completely insane
2:07:07
We're paying for this. People are being inconvenienced right now. But no one seems to want to take a stand on it
2:07:17
Well, they do. I mean, you've kind of answered your own question there. I think people do want to take a stand on it
2:07:22
but they get shouted down or they get ridiculed or they get cowled. They get attacked into silence
2:07:28
I mean, the most powerful thing you said when you came on was talking about the families of the people
2:07:32
that were trying to tell the truth about the science being targeted or being, you know, to the point where you say
2:07:37
Dad, do you really have to do this? Or can we not just, why can't you get a nice job in corporate law
2:07:42
or something like that? Why do you have to do this and that and the other? But so you don't hold a much hope in the short term
2:07:48
that just simply the experiences we are having in the global north at the moment
2:07:52
are going to be enough to make more people feel things as keenly as you do
2:07:58
I don't know. I remember going to a talk by Berners-Lee when he wrote There's No Planet B
2:08:07
And that went on to become kind of like a meme. People say it all the time, but do they actually understand what that means
2:08:15
And then, of course, you recognize the point that Patrick made, which is it's the politicians that need to be doing this stuff
2:08:20
not the punters, and the politicians won't do it unless the punters need to
2:08:25
Okay. And how many people have just heard the echo of Andy Burnham's voice
2:08:29
talking about PC Andrew Harper's killers, talking about the quality of public opinion being so great that it was irresistible
2:08:36
And this is, you know, not a criticism of his attitude towards Andrew Harper's killers
2:08:41
but that was the phrase I wrote down when we played out that little clip. I'm not going to be able to find now my notes
2:08:47
but that was the thing that jumped out of me, the question of whether or not it's a good thing or a bad thing for a prime minister
2:08:53
to be essentially responding so completely to public feeling. and the public feeling about climate change is not enough
2:09:00
for the Prime Minister to think that it's the most important thing in his entry, Sarah
2:09:04
It just isn't, is it? He's not doing it. Sorry, I've got two Sarahs
2:09:11
That was Sarah in Lambeth. Thank you. This is Sarah in Uxbridge. Sarah, what made you pick up the phone
2:09:16
I picked up the phone because it's a different sort of fear that I fear now
2:09:21
I walked over the park, my local park, this morning and I'd just come back before you started this conversation
2:09:30
which is brilliant that you're having. And I'd already said to my daughter, I was really afraid in that part because it's so dry
2:09:36
It can catch light in any direction and we're planning to go out there to experience the eclipse tomorrow
2:09:43
Oh, yes. And I'm thinking, is it safe? I know that, you know, but it's immediate fear in that
2:09:51
And what we need are immediate plans. We need to know if something catches fire in our road, what do we do
2:09:58
You're talking about the really, you just said the phrase, immediate fear, aren't you
2:10:03
You're talking about the fear of your community catching fire. Exactly. Wow. Yeah, of course you are. Of course you are
2:10:10
Well, I think that's a real fear, and this is why more people are feeling it now
2:10:14
Yes. Because cars, if a car, you know, we've seen the wild places going up
2:10:19
but if cars start going up, you know, and we need a plan. We don't want to be this afraid
2:10:24
A fear is, we have fear for a reason, so that we can react
2:10:30
But we mustn't react with the fear, we must react through our intellect
2:10:34
and we must have plans that make sense. And you have to talk about it all the time in order to keep the fear alive
2:10:41
even when the weather has calmed down again, briefly or temporarily. So the problem I've got, Sarah, and I can't expect you to particularly worry about this
2:10:49
is that it's not traditionally brilliant phone-in territory. This phone-in is probably the best we've had in a long time
2:10:58
I've really enjoyed this phone-in. So have I, actually. I can't meet with every single person that's spoken
2:11:02
But we couldn't do it all day, every day, even though on one level that's absolutely what we should be doing
2:11:07
But we must get to the point where we're making the plans
2:11:12
We can't expect a council to do it, or the government to do it without the people doing it
2:11:17
Without the people demanding that they do it. That phrase that I couldn't remember
2:11:20
Absolutely, utilizing it and being part of the solution. Because when the solution is taken, there's a disconnect
2:11:27
and it's when they're doing water planning, they're not looking at the actual rivers and the actual reservoirs
2:11:31
and the actual terrain. You know, the people will know which bits are going to catch fire
2:11:37
which bits are furthest away from any water. You're a bit ahead of the rest of us
2:11:41
I think I'm still thinking largely in the abstract, even though my thoughts in the abstract are prompted
2:11:46
by what I can see in the immediate. you're thinking of both
2:11:50
you're thinking of the relationship between what you can see immediately outside your window or as you walk
2:11:54
through the park but also the consequences of that for the abstract
2:11:58
the way that things need to move and respond, Sarah, thank you
2:12:02
and my job, such as it is is to just keep an eye on the
2:12:08
or find ways of keeping the conversation front and centre, keeping the conversation
2:12:12
in the public arena it is 12.42 you are listening to James O'Brien
2:12:18
on lbc theo and theo is in islington theo what made you pick up the phone hello james um so i
2:12:25
am afraid i've been afraid for for a long old while about this since you know first watching
2:12:32
al gore's film at school in about i think it was 2008 i watched that and it didn't land with me as
2:12:39
well i mean it did i remember bits from it like a republican mayor who was changing his whole town
2:12:45
because the threats of flooding he'd managed to sell to the community as having a commercial impact on them
2:12:51
Therefore, we should get ready for it, rather than, as an environmental argument
2:12:56
and Al Gore was kind of like, I don't care who my allies are on this, I don't care who..
2:13:00
I think I met him, actually, at that period, going back a long time, aren't we
2:13:04
2008, like you say. And I mean it landed with you in ways that it didn with me because I don know maybe I Well I say that but it been a sort of constant background hum of fear And now that tone is rising to a sort of warning siren
2:13:23
But I also want to counsel a bit of caution when it comes to fear
2:13:28
Fear is a youthful emotion. It acts as that warning siren. It tells us something is potentially wrong
2:13:34
but if we let it metastasize into despair that can lead to inaction and that is actually a tool
2:13:42
that those bad actors who have helped propagate this crisis who hopefully one day will face their
2:13:50
reckoning once we're done dealing with it yeah use to try to slow down the response that is needed
2:13:56
what we need to do is ignore that and hammer our fear into resolve into action and the political
2:14:05
will still isn't there i mean we're still i mean you know i don't even i think i do that if we just
2:14:11
stop immediately as widely and as deeply as possible setting fire to fossil fuels then it
2:14:16
would be a beginning of a recovery or the beginning of some sort of um recalibration but the political
2:14:22
will to do that is not there. And that phrase that Andy Burnham used, I knew it was relevant
2:14:28
for a reason. He talked about depth of concern, not breadth of concern. So you can send me
2:14:33
as Beatrice has done, the polling that shows climate concern is huge among the population
2:14:40
But depth of concern is different from breadth of concern. So that's what's changing
2:14:47
The depth of our concern, it's what Theo just articulated, the depth of our concern is
2:14:52
growing. You become, that's fear. The difference between the immediate and the abstract fear
2:14:59
of what the future holds, not just for you, but for your children, for your planet, for your species
2:15:05
And that is as if our feet are, forgive the rather clumsy ogy, our feet are getting ever
2:15:10
closer to the fire on this. And the New Forest is on fire
2:15:15
And wherever you are in England, certainly, most of Wales, I think
2:15:18
Scotland's had quite a bit of rain lately, but generally speaking wherever you are at the moment um you look outside at what was green it's now
2:15:26
yellow and will be for the foreseeable future and then it won't be and you'll stop being frightened
2:15:31
again but the depth of concern means that you'll be this is even clumsier language you'll be less
2:15:39
on frightened than you were before there'll be a residual fear that grows every year until
2:15:44
perhaps we become somehow capable of persuading our political masters that this is the single
2:15:50
most important thing on their agenda, on their to-do list. It's 12.46
2:15:56
James O'Brien on LBC. It is 12.49 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
2:16:05
I'm just reflecting on that simple question of whether or not we can talk about this more than we do already
2:16:11
And of course the answer is going to be partly. We can probably talk about it for as long as the weather is scaring us
2:16:17
And then when the weather stops scaring us, we won't be able to talk about it in quite the same way that we are
2:16:22
So we will definitely talk about it again before the end of this week. But I just want to take a moment, if I may
2:16:27
to indulge in a little bit of petty feuding. I don't know if you were listening on Friday
2:16:33
when we had quite a lot of fun at the expense of Dick Littlejohn
2:16:37
the Daily Mail columnist, who usually relies on 20-year-old episodes of The Bill
2:16:41
to provide his social commentary. What do you do? It's the first rule of journalism, really
2:16:48
is if someone tells you it's raining and someone else tells you it isn't, what do you do? Do you report both sides as somehow being equal
2:16:54
or do you stick your head out of the window to find out for yourself? So he's talking about me again in the Daily Mail today
2:17:00
I won't dwell on it unduly, but I think that if you were listening on Friday
2:17:04
you'll find this extraordinary attempt to pretend... Well, you listen for yourself
2:17:10
I'm told LBC Rent-A-Gob radio host James O'Brien reacted in a predictably petulant way to my column on Friday
2:17:16
Good. obviously I didn't hear it as soon as the excellent Nick Ferrari finishes
2:17:21
at 10am I switch straight over but readers who did tune in
2:17:25
tell me it was the most spectacular on air meltdown since Peter Finch's
2:17:29
I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore to Raid as a deranged TV presenter
2:17:33
apparently O'Brien's always slagging off the Daily Mail and me in particular and then he writes
2:17:39
who cares should we just have a little think about that if you've got a column in
2:17:46
national newspaper and you can write about whatever you want. And in your last two columns
2:17:52
you've written about me. You can't really write who cares, mate. You sausage
2:17:58
It's a badge of honour coming from a poisonous public school tosser
2:18:02
like him posing as a tribunal. He knows a lot about me, doesn't he
2:18:06
For someone who never tunes in or listens to the show. Here's a new one. O'Brien, like Meghan Markle
2:18:13
has his own truth and a tendency to believe only what he wants to believe
2:18:17
And then we're back to the stuff we covered on Friday, championing fantasists like convicted paedophile Carl Beach
2:18:22
who, of course, was held up as an example of what brilliant journalism the Daily Mail was doing
2:18:28
Anti-Tory smear merchants, including non-finder general Tom Watson and most recently disgraced professor Jason Arday
2:18:34
which, of course, we spoke about for an hour on Friday as well. Yet he throws his toys out of his pram
2:18:39
when I tell the real truth about him, he writes. having not listened to it, allegedly
2:18:48
So if you did listen to it on Friday, do you recognise any of this at all
2:18:54
this depiction of what we did? Like so many on the left who delight in viciously trolling
2:18:59
those with whom they disagree. Again, it's a bit of a student of my work, this guy
2:19:04
considering that he never... But anyway, who cares? Who cares, Dick? The great Julie Burt, he can dish it out
2:19:11
but he can't take it. I'm taking it. This is literally what I'm doing. I'm taking it, and I'm laughing at you
2:19:17
The great Julie Birchill, formerly of this parish, has a perfect expression to describe cowardly, smug prigs like O'Brien
2:19:24
Who cares, Dickie? Who cares, eh? Not you. Cowardly, smug prigs like O'Brien
2:19:29
Cry bully. I'm a cry bully. So you've got a choice here with Richard Littlejohn
2:19:35
He hasn't called me a failure anymore, because I was showbiz editor of the Daily Express when I left Fleet Street
2:19:40
a job that his hero, Paul Dacre's father, also sought to hold one day
2:19:46
And he hasn taken the mickey out of me for selling suits back in the day either because presumably all of these people writing to him to tell him that I had a massive meltdown have pointed out that it makes it look like he being condescending to people with normal jobs But listen if you take this
2:19:59
nonsense at face value, you have one choice to make. Is Richard Littlejohn writing columns about
2:20:04
things he knows absolutely nothing about, me, or is he a liar? Liar? Or writing columns being too
2:20:15
sick to realise that he's literally admitting in print that he writes columns about things
2:20:19
he has no knowledge, experience or understanding of. Listen, I don't want to be unkind. I don't want to be
2:20:25
a quiet bully. I think it's, having read his work over the years, because I would never critique
2:20:31
somebody, obviously, professionally without familiarising myself with their work. That would just be weird
2:20:37
right? I think it's the latter. I don't think he is a liar. I think he routinely
2:20:41
writes, oh no, hang on a minute. it's both isn't it he is a liar and he routinely writes columns about things he has no experience
2:20:50
understanding or knowledge of mind how you go dick uh dan's in skipton back to the fear
2:20:56
dan what would you like to say hi james thanks for having me on thanks for having this conversation
2:21:00
you're very welcome i probably shouldn't have indulged myself then in the middle of a conversation
2:21:04
about the future of the planet but that's the way else quai bullies operate dan what's on your mind
2:21:09
I know, I quite enjoyed it. Thank you. Yeah, I'm a former airline pilot, actually
2:21:13
And when I stopped flying about six and a half years ago, because of my conflicts, I suppose
2:21:18
I was aware of the impact of aviation. And that's kind of a weird way into it, really, isn't it
2:21:23
You're doing a job which is causing a kind of disproportionate harm, impact
2:21:27
And it's through that awareness that you become aware of, you know, there's, I suppose, an anxiety around it
2:21:32
but also making a decision to do something completely different. Flipping heck. How did that go down with your family
2:21:38
I hope that's not an inappropriate question to ask. No, not at all. I mean, it was really hard
2:21:43
I love flying. My grandfather flew in the war. He flew commercially in the 50s, 60s, 70s
2:21:47
My dad flew. I'd always wanted to fly since I was really young. And yeah, honestly, it was a difficult decision for me
2:21:53
And yeah, I think they were surprised. It wasn't necessarily what they wanted to happen
2:22:00
And yeah, but it's just, I think, just reflecting on that experience of doing the job
2:22:05
of knowing the impact of that job and feeling that conflict. And it's quite painful, I think
2:22:10
when you really connect with that. You're a better man than me, I think. To put your principles so far ahead
2:22:16
of your professional advancement is extraordinary to witness. What really clinched it
2:22:20
Because I hope that's not a silly question, but, you know, walking through the park last night
2:22:25
I felt things inside me shift. What was it for you? What was the big shift
2:22:32
Because they haven't shifted for me anywhere near as much as they must have done for you to take a completely different part in life
2:22:38
What was interesting is that one of the areas of training that I actually delivered within the airlines I worked for
2:22:41
was in like human factors. So this is the non-technical areas of training
2:22:46
And a lot of that was around decision-making. And one of the big things we talk about, you know, in terms of how pilots can make decisions
2:22:52
that help us to be free from bias is understanding our cognitive bias
2:22:55
and understanding the things that could mean that we actually might not make the right decision
2:23:00
And I think I became really aware of how our brains work. and I recognised that I was kind of
2:23:04
I was looking for all the reasons why it was okay, and I was dismissing all the reasons why it wasn't. Yeah, well, we do, that's hiding from fear, right
2:23:10
That's persuading ourselves not to be frightened. That's what I was trying to talk about. Exactly, and I realised that I was doing that at a much broader level
2:23:17
You know, if you get an indication in a cockpit that you've got a fuel leak, your brain will do everything you can to find out
2:23:23
to look for reasons why you don't, because having a fuel leak is really inconvenient. So you have to be trained as a pilot to think free of bias
2:23:29
and to actually, to not ask why don't we have a fuel leak, but why do we have a fuel leak
2:23:33
And I realized that I was doing that at a bigger scale. So when I kind of asked myself, actually, what would I think
2:23:38
If it wasn't for the fact that I'd always worked to fly, that I love flying, that I'm benefiting from it financially
2:23:42
and I was presented with this science, and I knew I was going to now become a parent
2:23:46
so I'm now thinking, you know, 100 years ahead, not, or 80 years ahead, not, not just 50 years ahead
2:23:50
what would I think? And the answer to that question was really different. And when I kind of sat with that
2:23:56
and then when I kind of explored, okay, what is the aviation industry doing? What is their answer to this
2:24:00
they were celebrating 15% improvements in efficiency whilst kind of not talking about the projected 50% increase in growth
2:24:07
The greenwash was just, you know, it didn't sit well. It's not really about saying it's anti-flying
2:24:12
It's about being pro-truth and pro-realistic solutions. And so that's why we started Safe Landing
2:24:18
the group we've got of aviation workers, because what we want to do is create a community of people
2:24:22
within the sector who feel similar. We know that, as you said, the breadth of people that are concerned about this is huge
2:24:28
and they feel that conflict and what we want to do is support them
2:24:33
to be a positive voice for change because we need a lot more people talking about this a lot more of the time
2:24:37
But that's such a mad thing to hear, isn't it? It's because you sit here as a phone, forgive me to bring my job into it
2:24:42
but we've talked a bit about yours. I sit here as a phone and I was thinking, I can't talk about this more than I do
2:24:46
And you're 100% right that we as a species have to. Yeah
2:24:51
And you as a profession, do you want to give the group a name? Do you want to give it a shout? It's called Safe Landing
2:24:56
Yeah, we're a community of aviation workers. And the idea is we really want to engage anyone who works in aviation or anyone who's connected to aviation
2:25:03
If you're a person that depends on aviation to see family members abroad, if you're someone that deeply loves flying or studying flying or working in aviation
2:25:10
but you have this sense of discomfort that I know that it's also not doing what it needs to do
2:25:15
It's not on the right trajectory to become part of a livable future. You're not alone. And we need your voice
2:25:20
We need you to be part of this community because the industry is not going to change. Regulators, government at the moment at least, the direction we're seeing airport expansion is still very much on the table
2:25:28
I'm going to have to interrupt you you're beginning to sound like I do
2:25:33
at 10 past 10 in the morning as if you could talk uninterrupted forever but we see a foggy sing in the background
2:25:40
a complete lack of recognition of what I just described, thank you Dan, we'll talk
2:25:44
again I promise, and indeed maybe tomorrow we'll return to this because Justin
2:25:48
and Mark are waiting, Francis is waiting, Fiona's waiting, Paul's waiting, Neil's not waiting, it says he's called in
2:25:54
to complain, so I don't think he'll be ringing in tomorrow if we return to this
2:25:58
territory. Or maybe he's complaining about Sheila Fogarty. Send him to me
2:26:02
Possibly complaining about Sheila Fogarty not being on soon enough. So let me detain you no longer. If you
2:26:06
missed any of today's show, you can listen back on our free Global Player app or the LBC app, where you
2:26:10
can stay up to date with all the latest news, videos and opinion. You can listen to a range of podcasts
2:26:14
including James O'Brien Daily, the best bits from my LBC show every day. So do
2:26:18
download the official LBC app for free from your app store now
2:26:22
Coming up at four on LBC, it's Tom Swarbrick. But now it's time for Sheila Fogarty
2:26:26
James O'Brien on LBC
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