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'Cancer is hitting people far younger than we think' | James O'Brien - The Whole Show
Oct 7, 2026
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0:00
Good morning. It's three minutes after ten. Do you know what I aspire to do, what we all aspire to do, if you do this for a living
0:11
You aspire to create a sort of intimacy, a bond, so that you feel, when you turn on the radio at seven o'clock or five o'clock or even perhaps at ten o'clock in the morning
0:23
you feel a sense of comfort, a camaraderie even. I've told you before that Mrs O'Brien and I used to plan long drives at the weekend
0:33
to coincide with Jonathan Ross being on the radio because the three hours would go by so much more quickly
0:40
when we were listening to Jonathan Ross than they did when we weren't
0:45
And that's what I aspire to. But in recent years, that's what I want to provide you with
0:50
although obviously I don't get to spin any platters, It cuts both ways, you know
0:56
It really cuts both ways. So I've barely drawn breath yet this morning
1:01
And you've already bombarded me with messages that sort of make me feel that sense of comfort and intimacy
1:08
about you that I aspire to sort of engender in your breast
1:13
I'll give you some examples. Ian's been in touch. That line about what car do you drive
1:17
to a boss moaning about how hard it is to run a business or how hard it is to find staff
1:22
I can't afford, you know, so the first thing you want to know is how much money are you offering to a young pizza chef, for example
1:29
And then the second question is, well, what car do you drive? Let's have a little look about, and Ian has just reminded me in a text to 84850, he sent that question in
1:39
What an honour it must be to hear me nick and fail to credit a question or a comment that you've sent into the show
1:46
and I then blithely and arrogantly pass off as all my own work
1:49
although if memory serves, I did credit Ian at the time. And then Ollie, in the same minute, all at 10.01
1:56
all three of these messages. He goes, down a line, an awful lot of you have gone down
2:01
as a consequence of that brief introduction that I did just before the news. Cars, he writes, and Jeremy Clarkson
2:07
In the same introduction, James, this better not be a motoring topic
2:11
And that, of course, is a little nod to the rubric, the furniture of the programme
2:16
My aversion to motoring topics, despite the fact that they are, of course, a hardy perennial, a staple traditionally of the radio phone-in genre
2:27
And then finally, Jack, who obviously, the programme obviously holds a very special place in his morning because he writes
2:34
where was your pre-show monologue at 9.46ish? I need it to know what time it is
2:40
We recorded it a bit late, mate. Sometimes we just forget, we don't notice
2:44
It's a miracle that I've never missed the top of the show. Because there have been occasions when
2:51
and I'm not suggesting it's somebody else's responsibility to produce the presenter at the top of the show
3:00
I mean, the presenter's job is to present. Some might argue that the producer's job is to produce the presenter
3:07
at the top of the show. But there have been times when Eleanor and I have looked at each other
3:11
and we're on a different floor and we've gone, it's 9.57, mate
3:17
And the speed, Aled Jones, sitting in the Classic FM studio, has, I think on occasion, he's phoned security
3:24
because he thought that there might be a cheetah on the loose in the building
3:29
because the speed with which I dashed past the Classic FM studio
3:33
when I'm about to, you may have caught me out of breath a couple of times. It's a miracle that we've never missed the top of the show completely
3:39
But we have on occasion been a little bit too late to get that recording in
3:44
So a little moment there to reflect upon the fact that I invest in you at least as much, if not more, than you invest in me
3:54
And that's why I think sometimes it's important to acknowledge that you need a bit of a rethink
4:00
You need a bit of a rethink. For example, what is the line I normally use to essentially malign excessive wealth
4:11
It's a line, and I usually say I can never remember whether it's Balzac or Tolstoy
4:16
It's Balzac because it's French. Le secret des grandes fortunes sans cause apparent est un crime oublié
4:25
My apologies to all the French. All the French people. My apologies to all the French people
4:31
and anyone who speaks French well, my apologies. Where was I? Son cause apparente est un crime oubli�
4:39
parce qu'il a été proprement fait. And if you can translate that
4:45
then I'll give you the money myself. What it translates as, roughly, is that the secret of a great success
4:50
or kind of fortune, a great fortune, for which you are at a loss to account
4:55
is a crime that has never been found out because it was properly executed. So I used to sit here and say
5:00
well as Balzac famously observed behind every great crime is a great fortune and that's not true
5:06
there are a lot of people who've made a ton of money who are lovely and decent and kind
5:11
and generous have been lucky enough to work for some of them over the years but that point there about if you can't work out where
5:16
the money's come from that's what that quote was about and I've spent
5:20
20 years hitting you over the head with it without ever having gone back to the French to work out what the
5:24
old fellow was actually saying old Balzac And that's not, he wasn't saying what I thought he was saying
5:31
A kind of Marxist position that property is theft. That's not what he was saying
5:37
He was saying if you can't work out where the money's come from and you're knocking about with somebody incredibly wealthy
5:42
then the chances are that it has come from suspect or nefarious sources
5:49
So I have to park that now. That just leaves the Orwell quote and the Steinbeck quote
5:54
as my hardy perennials, doesn't it? my all-time favorites. And I wonder whether I have to park Ian's question as well
6:02
whenever an employer, and we touched on this yesterday, but it was more about skills than money
6:09
which is why I'm returning to similar territory today. You tell me that you can't afford to hire a young apprentice
6:17
and then you tell me that you drive a £120,000 car, and I kind of find myself thinking
6:22
and I don't think this is lazy or Wolfie Smith territory, I kind of find myself thinking
6:26
well, we need a bit of a rethink here, mate. Then Jeremy Clarkson, and no, this is not going to be a motoring phoning
6:33
not by any stretch of the imagination, who has enjoyed enormous success with his pub and lager
6:39
and various other spin-offs from his farming show on Amazon Prime. He was at the Tory party conference yesterday
6:48
I think he was the youngest person there. And he said that there is no reason to set up a business in Andy Burnham's Britain
6:55
I mean, that's how the Daily Telegraph have chosen to phrase it, because Andy Burnham has only been running Britain for about five minutes
7:01
so it would have been a slightly odd conclusion to arrive at, without, of course, tracking back to things that were done
7:07
when Keir Starmer was Prime Minister. And I noticed that I did this yesterday
7:14
I was about to ask. I don't think it was Nigel in Chichester who..
7:17
It gave us such a crash course on welding and its role in highlighting the fact that Siobhan Mahmood
7:23
and doesn seem to know what she talking about He very nearly got a Ray Liotta I don think it was Nigel I think it was someone else to whom I just resisted the urge to say well what car do you drive Because it wasn a conversation about it being too expensive to do things Jeremy Clarkson
7:40
today is talking about it being too expensive to do business. I mean, part of me finds myself
7:47
thinking if it's so tough, why haven't you shut the pub you've got? Or indeed the farm
7:53
shop that you've also opened up as a consequence of the success of the TV show that is presumably
8:00
also made by your business. So you haven't shut any of the businesses that you've already got
8:05
but you've turned up at Tory party conference to preach to the converted and say that because
8:10
there's a Labour government in charge, please ignore all the successful businesses I'm currently
8:14
running, but hear me bemoan the fact that I'm not going to open another one. And indeed
8:19
If I was going to, I'd probably open it somewhere else, as in a different country
8:25
And I don't want to be a knee-jerk kind of guy. I try not to be a knee-jerk kind of guy, and often I fail
8:33
That line there, Balzac, behind every great fortune there is a great crime
8:39
Not Balzac's line at all. Behind every mysterious fortune there is probably a great crime
8:44
That works. But I want today to talk, and this is partly in tribute to Nigel in Chichester for bringing such a wonderful perspective to the program yesterday
8:54
I am not a businessman. Right. And I don't want to lazily malign all people that are
9:03
And I think the only definition I'm going to use here is employers. You have people on the payroll. Right. That's it. I don't have people on the payroll
9:12
I have always been on the payroll. I've had a management position
9:17
I know it's hilarious. I still can't believe it either. I've had people under me in company structures on newspapers
9:23
but I've never been responsible for paying their wages. And I think that is an enormous divide in our population
9:31
I think that is an enormous divide. As I mentioned a moment ago, I've been lucky in my life
9:36
to have worked for people who I both like and respect. But it's mutual
9:42
I think I don't want to open that particular Pandora's box, but it's always seemed to be mutual
9:50
And it means it's wrong to just sort of malign employers like Jeremy Clarkson when they say the system, the situation now as a consequence of national insurance changes that Rachel Reeves brought in, increases to the minimum wage and changes to the COVID era business rates
10:12
That's all that The Telegraph has been able to come up with. The last one strikes me as a little bit unfair because, I mean, on the politicians, because you can't bring in relief for an emergency and then complain when the emergency is over and they take away the relief, can you
10:26
You might argue that it shouldn't have coincided with the other things. But all we've really got here is minimum wage increases and national insurance increases, or if you are of the Daily Telegraph's or Jeremy Clarkson's outlook on life, raids
10:44
You call them a raid. I want to talk today, or rather I want you to talk today, about starting a business in this country or indeed running a business in this country
10:55
And I want you to honestly tell me whether or not it is measurably harder since Labour got into power for reasons that are attributable to Labour policies
11:06
That might sound dry. There's a free advert in it for you as long as you wait to be invited to broadcast it and don't just jump in straight away with the sort of self-reference
11:18
I'm really interested in this question because it can't be binary, can it
11:22
It can't be employers rise. It's like the Marxist ysis that the owning class are the root of all evil and the workers are the path to salvation. I don't actually believe that for the very simple reason that some of us might be clever. We might enjoy the trappings of success. We might be greedy. We might be all of those things, but we are never going to start a business
11:45
it's a mindset we're never going to do it there might have been moments
11:52
in the past where I kind of could have done it's still possible
11:56
looking at some of the exciting new developments in the world of broadcasting
12:02
but it ain't going to be happening anytime soon for me because I've just signed a contract for the next three years
12:06
here at LBC Towers calm yourselves I know that the excitement of that announcement
12:12
is considerable but we've got a show to get on with Some people will never do it
12:18
Most of us, statistically speaking, are happier working for someone else. I don't even think it's about courage necessarily or cowardice
12:26
I just think it is a mindset and a skill set that some people have and some people don't
12:34
And you may be surprised to learn I really respect it. I really respect it
12:40
I don't envy it, although I think if you really want to make a proper pot of money in your life, you probably need equity in something
12:48
You need asset rather than just earning. But I really respect it
12:53
Some of my closest friends over the last 20 or 30 years have started their own businesses
12:58
And I've watched them put quite a lot on the line. I've watched them risk quite a lot of the lifestyle that they currently enjoyed in order to pursue something different
13:08
something almost intangible. Some of them have ended up considerably better off
13:13
than they would have been if they'd stayed on someone else's payroll. And some of them have stayed in more or less the same place
13:20
And two of them have, I don't think they'd mind me using this verb
13:23
two of them have failed and gone back. They've been lucky enough to get back onto the treadmill, as it were
13:29
and go back into the employ of somebody else. But they're all possessed of something I don't have
13:35
If you are possessed of it, ooh, we go a bit meta on this
13:42
Should we do what is it? What is it that you've got that I haven't got
13:47
What is the thing that makes people want to run their own business
13:51
want to start their own business? That's not the phone-in, but it might be part of it
13:56
Yeah, let's do that, actually. What is it? That's lovely, isn't it? I love it when that happens
14:00
when we do a sort of fairly straightforward introduction and something completely unexpected pops out the bottom of it
14:06
So you went into business. What is it you've got that I haven't got
14:13
Oh, three, four, five, six. Or what is it I've got that you haven't got? I don't know. Could cut both ways, couldn't it
14:18
So I like that question as a sort of side order. Let's consider that the garlic bread of this morning's repast
14:24
Because the main course, the Pastor Alfredo, that is this question. Is Jeremy Clarkson right
14:32
Is it now unnecessarily difficult to start in the first instance or run a business
14:41
And he is particularly well qualified to comment on hospitality and farming
14:47
You will be well qualified to comment on any sector under the sun
14:51
I mean, and I will need the why of it. Why is it harder Because here is a political clash for the ages All right I think Cami Bader is tinkering with the idea of reducing minimum wage which is to most people eyes certainly
15:05
to most business owners' eyes, it's a pittance. So the political impetus to increase the income
15:11
of the country's poorest paid people is noble, right? I mean, I would ideologically be 110
15:19
behind that. But if it genuinely pushes us to a point where it is so high that I'm not going to
15:25
provide any job at all to that person who's currently unemployed, then you can see the
15:31
argument for claiming that it's too high. Although everybody who has ever claimed that they couldn't
15:37
afford to accommodate tax or minimum wage legislation or whatever else it might be has
15:43
to the best of my knowledge, never actually gone bust as a consequence of it being introduced
15:47
But that's the phone in. The philosophical question, what is entrepreneurial spirit? And the political question, is it currently, brackets as a consequence of Labour Party policy, close brackets, harder to run a business, harder to start a business in Burnham's Britain than it should be
16:08
0345 6060 973. And of course, if you're not a business person, but you are very political, then feel free to tell anybody complaining about the current situation commercially that they need to man up, stop eating so much avocado on toast and pay their workforce a decent wage in order to ensure that they're running a decent company
16:31
It's 20 minutes after 10. The phone lines are open and they are waiting for you
16:36
James O'Brien on LBC. It is 22 minutes after 10 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
16:45
Being an employer is the point. So self-employed people, people who have, if you like, a business because they need to do the work that they do
16:56
which is my kind of category, but not an employer, not responsible for somebody else's livelihood
17:04
That is the category we're looking at this hour. We're wondering what it is that drives people to be in that space
17:10
And this nonsense that I have in my head, it's not really big in my head anymore, but, you know, business owners are not rich
17:19
Business, by definition, you own a business. It doesn't make you wealthy
17:23
Businesses fail all the time. Businesses are small, medium-sized. Some years you don't make an awful lot of money, but you've still got to pay the fixed salary staff
17:31
So what's left at the end may be considerably less than it was during the good. Do you see what I mean
17:36
All of these reasons why I wouldn't want to do it. So is Clarkson right
17:40
Is it currently much tougher than it should be, could be, or would be if, for example
17:48
Kemi Baden-Ock was Prime Minister? All right? There, I said it. Rod's in Richmond
17:52
Rod, what do you reckon? Hi, James. How are you? Very well, mate. What's on your mind
17:57
Yes. So I think I wanted to touch on the first point of saying what differentiates somebody with
18:02
that entrepreneurial spirit that you mentioned. Yeah. I own a relatively successful business in London, and it wasn't like an entrepreneurial spirit that I had
18:14
I kind of think it came more down to survival in terms of I'd worked in the corporate world
18:19
I'd seen at times when they had downsized businesses, I was let go once or twice myself
18:25
So when an opportunity came, it was about to have my own control without someone else controlling my future
18:32
Yeah. How old are you? I'm 49 at the moment. Yeah, okay
18:37
And how old were you when you got let go? If you don't mind me, I was like, I'm sounding like some sort of therapist, aren't I
18:41
About 33. Yeah, I can see that. I can see that. So I had a wobble when I was about 30
18:48
And that was the only time I've ever looked at the possibility of being master of my own destiny
18:53
And then happily LBC came calling. And now I'm not even joking and I've never looked back
18:57
So I think that would have been a moment that might have crystallised my thoughts
19:02
Because you didn't want to be completely, I mean, you're still in hock or in thrall to the economy, to the vagaries of business
19:10
But ultimately, you're in charge of your own destiny in a way that you can never be when you're on someone else's payroll
19:17
100%. That's absolutely correct. I completely get that. So where are we today
19:22
Not in terms of how your business is doing, but in terms of how hard it would be to open another outlet or to start again from scratch
19:31
It is. Yeah, I mean, there are so many loopholes now. Obviously, I mean, it's very well kind of, I know in the news regarding the cost of living
19:41
everything, all the costs and everything else attached to it. But it's also the red tape that you have to go through
19:47
You know, when we want to implement elements to our business to progress it, to move it forward
19:53
You know, when we're talking to local council, we're looking at months upon months of waiting
19:59
So that's got nothing to do with the central government, except insofar as they could legislate to make it easier
20:05
But planning and things like that are all local. I think you're Liberal Democrats if your business is in Richmond
20:11
It's not in Richmond. I live in Richmond, though. That's OK. So they could do things to make it easier
20:17
but it's not necessarily the things that Jeremy Clarkson has identified. No, I mean, to be honest with you
20:22
I think one of our biggest concerns why we wouldn't open up another business It's really down to how hard it is to get good staff at the moment
20:29
I think that's where the problem is. And when we were talking about also the wages as well, as a business, we have no problems with paying higher wages
20:38
The challenge that we have is that if somebody comes in from fresh and we start with a higher wage
20:45
if they don't prove themselves to be good enough and they're not able to work within that business
20:50
we're kind of we're in that bad position where we've we've hired someone a good strong wage
20:56
but they're not fulfilling the potential that we were hoping for yeah and it's a high turnover of
21:01
stuff so it's always about if we can bring somebody in at a reasonable wage and allow them to prove
21:07
themselves and we would always be happy to pay somebody more once they obviously because if the
21:12
business is doing well they are a part of that process and and and what goes around comes around
21:18
But we're once again straight back to the difficulties of finding decent people
21:24
Very difficult. Since Brexit, it has been virtually one of the hardest elements. Can I just wait there a minute
21:29
Can I just point out that Rod said that? Not me. I might have been expecting it and I might have been wondering whether I should bring it up first, but Rod did it
21:38
Dave, I'm a huge fan of yours and I'm so glad that you are one of the biggest voices in this area
21:43
because I couldn't agree with you more. But since Brexit, it has been one of the toughest
21:48
Because my business is within hospitality, and the amount of great people that we have lost since Brexit
21:55
it's broken my heart. It really has. And it's not cheap labour that you want
21:59
It's just competent and capable labour who you would be happy to pay a decent wage to
22:04
if you could simply find them. And that is preventing you from opening another branch or another..
22:09
It's like, what? Yeah. Or just taking away the edge. What's that, sorry
22:14
Taking away the edge. You'd probably be looking into it a little bit more enthusiastically if it wasn't for all the things that you've just described
22:20
Absolutely It really about trying to find that balance and saying is all that effort and energy and the costs attached worth it to what we getting as a return How interesting And you looking at it i mean dare i say and he more than welcome to ring in and tell me that i wrong because james may did the other day so no reason why jereby shouldn himself but
22:38
you are taking a rather more nuanced and less politicized approach than he is but he was at
22:43
the tory party conference so you can't really critique him for being politicized would you
22:47
like a free advert uh no i'm okay our business is doing quite well so it's not a problem let's
22:53
leave it then that's lovely to hear and speak to you well likewise and good luck with it and and if
22:58
i do ever cross your threshold i look forward to sampling whatever your wares are rod and and there
23:02
it is so i'm just one business person lovely insight into it's not some special source or
23:08
magic number that makes you want to go into business sometimes it is age related and you'll
23:12
think well i don't want to run the risk of this rug being pulled from under me by somebody else
23:16
so i'm going to knit my own rug and see how i get on with that and that suddenly makes it open up to
23:21
I find that easily much more comprehensible than some of the other motivations to go into business on your own
23:28
But why would you not open another branch? Why are things trickier than they need to be? Can't find the staff. Not that I'm not prepared to pay them. I'll pay them
23:36
I just can't find them. And then the other thing Rod mentioned that was missing from my introduction was very simply the cost of living
23:41
it's really expensive you know austerity covid trust all of those things that have reduced our
23:51
performance economically and of course reduced and the fetishization of enormous wealth of course
23:56
pushing it ever upwards while pretending to believe in trickle-down economics the cost of
24:01
living the fact that people don't feel well off means that they're not spending money and businesses
24:06
don't get an exemption from that reality oh well that's fine no we've got to keep the businesses
24:10
open so you don't have to absorb the consequences of a cost of living crisis. Do you see that's
24:17
just silly? Plenty of room to swim in the other direction and say Clarkson's entirely
24:21
correct. My decision not to open another branch or not to open another business is based entirely
24:26
on what Rachel Reeves did to national insurance. James O'Brien on LBC. If you enjoy lengthy
24:34
introductions, lengthy, the best callers in the business and deep dives with LBC's standout
24:39
talent such as Simon Marks who will be back with us later today then
24:43
great news, you will be able or you can listen back to all of this ad
24:47
free on LBC Catch Up Plus it's our new subscription service and it gives you ad free catch
24:53
up listening to all our LBC shows you've got to be 18 or over to
24:57
subscribe and you can find it right now on our global player app on the
25:01
official LBC app or at LBC Catch Up Plus dot com. James O'Brien
25:07
on LBC. It's 26 minutes to 11. Just indulge me for a moment
25:12
Do you do anything that involves streaks? I don't mean watching Windows
25:16
I mean like online games. You know, Wordle and Duolingo and stuff like that
25:21
And you go on a streak, you get a streak. It's just occurred to me, what's the longest Simon Marks streak that we've had on the programme
25:27
Because we're going to go two for two today. Was he on on Friday? Was Simon on on Friday
25:32
Because I'm terrible at streaks. I keep thinking to myself, I'm going to get a really long streak together
25:38
and then I just one day, I just forget to do it. I play most of the nice word games on the New York Times app
25:44
and even on Wordle, I got up to 149 last year, and then just forgot one Sunday to do it
25:52
What's our longest Simon Marks streak, and shall we try to beat it? Shall we try to beat our longest Simon
25:57
Well, we can't, can we, because it depends upon the news. Although Donald Trump's doing a pretty good job of keeping us in business at the moment
26:04
10.35 is the time. We're talking about business. We're talking about the potentially quite partisan and lazy contribution to discourse from Jeremy Clarkson
26:16
The idea that because of Labour Party policies, he is not going to close any of his very successful businesses, but he's not going to open another one because blimmin' Labour
26:25
I just wonder whether that's true, because as far as I can tell, it's blimmin' Brexit that is one of the main reasons why people are not able to expand or grow their businesses in the way that they would like to
26:36
And it's not just because of the difficulty of finding staff. It's also because, of course, you can't do business with our biggest market as easily and as neatly and as frictionlessly as you could relatively recently
26:51
This is from Nick. I own a global fire protection company. We install complex fire systems
26:57
I haven't read out the name of it because I just haven't double-checked it yet. That's all. We install complex fire systems in very sophisticated or challenging buildings
27:05
featuring some of the most famous brands, buildings and companies. The only significant ball and chain around our business is Brexit
27:13
As a business owner, we care about the environment. We care about people's health and wealth
27:17
We don't mind regulation. We don't mind creating wealth for the UK PLC by generating tax revenue
27:23
As long as we know the rules, we can play the game. Fascinating yesterday, talking to Nigel, not that one
27:30
about the difficulty of finding staff to be welders, which was the system, was the example that Shabana Mahmood chose
27:40
And just dropping casually into the conversation, the fact that before Brexit
27:44
the qualifications that you would receive in the rest of Europe to be a welder worked here
27:50
They were applicable here. So you could train up as a welder in Berlin
27:54
and then start working in Birmingham on Monday. You can't anymore. They've got to jump through post-Brexit British hoops
28:01
So that's the kind of thing that Nick is referring to, whose company Equipro Fire does exactly what he just said
28:08
complex fire systems. So you are bringing stuff in from overseas. You may want some staff as well, but also goods
28:15
Remember, it's a single market. There's four indivisible freedoms. Freedom of movement for people and freedom of movement for goods
28:22
You can't have one and not have the other. So maybe Clarkson was being a little bit, I don't know, disingenuous
28:29
when he tried to blame it all on Rachel Reeves, although he was, of course, a Remainer, I believe
28:33
Danny's in Chester. Danny, what would you like to say? Hi, James. Thanks very much for having me on
28:38
Yeah, I'm a small business owner up in Burnley, so it's a construction design company. Okay
28:45
And to be honest with you, I don't agree with Jeremy at all
28:49
And I tell you a couple of things. Yeah. One is at the moment, I've got two thirds of my staff going through an apprenticeship in AI and automation, which is effectively government funded
29:01
Right. The second thing is I'm looking at recruiting an apprentice. Again, there's more funding for that available via the government
29:10
and all of the combination of those things and the willingness of the staff to innovate
29:16
to change, to get off our backsides and do something, has enabled us to save money within the business
29:22
And my view is that, yes, you know, increasing the minimum wage does put extra cost in
29:31
National insurance does put extra cost in. But it's down to me as the owner to navigate those challenges
29:38
to find ways. And look, there are things available from the government that can help you
29:44
And I do think it is just lazy to kind of blame it all on Rachel Reeves
29:49
Well, that's politics, isn't it? I mean, this is why I'm so glad that employers are talking to me today
29:54
because it wouldn't count for much coming out of my lefty gob
30:00
That's two different approaches to government, isn't it? You either do what you've described and help businesses help themselves
30:08
or you leave it all to bosses in the hope that something trickles down
30:14
I like the idea of governments making it easier for you to train up and hire people
30:19
rather than just sort of making it easier for you to hang on to more of the money that you make
30:24
and trust you to spend it yourself. Exactly. I've never thought of it like that
30:30
So tell me a bit about the AI training that you've got. How many employers have you got in total at the moment
30:35
So we've got 12 employers and eight of them are going through the AI training
30:39
A lot of them were very unfamiliar with AI. And we're sort of three to four weeks in
30:46
And we're already, as a small business, one of the things that we do is we outsource a lot of activity to help us
30:52
But actually what we're able to do is bring a lot of that expertise back into the business
30:57
because it's easier and quicker to do that stuff. They're being upskilled and feel much more confident
31:04
And we also just feel like the power's in our hands now rather than kind of waiting for suppliers and other people to do things for us
31:11
So, yeah, it's very exciting. Very exciting. Great stuff. I like that. And it is a government scheme that you're taking advantage of
31:17
Yeah, it's a government scheme. There is some kind of complications around levy-paying businesses
31:23
We're not one of those. But actually, that's a fraction of it. and there's another business that's helping us fund that
31:29
So all of us are going through this pretty much free of charge
31:33
Yes, there's a lot of effort from ourselves, but I think that's what it is. I think, to be honest, this whole debate is around
31:39
can you adapt? Can you think for yourself? Can you look for the opportunities
31:43
and can you just get up and do something? And, I mean, you say free of charge
31:47
but, of course, the money raised by the increases in national insurance
31:51
and I know this is a little bit simplest, it can be spent on doing the sort of things that you're describing
31:55
I mean, do you want an advert for your company? It sounds like you're pretty busy. Yeah, no
32:00
Thank you very much for the opportunity, but I will decline because those are my political thoughts myself
32:07
I like it. But thank you very much. Good for you. Good for you. 10.41 is the time you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
32:12
where the idea that businesses... Well, listen, this is just two examples
32:16
There's loads and loads of opportunity for you to say, no, he's absolutely right
32:20
The bloke with a net worth of approximately 55 to 65 million pounds
32:24
is absolutely right when he stands up in front of the Tory party conference and says, oh, woe is me, woe is me
32:29
I can't afford to open another pub because of Rachel Reeves. Sorry, did that sound sarcastic
32:35
It wasn't supposed to. Chris is in Bedford. Chris, what would you like to say? Good morning, James. How are you
32:40
Very well, mate. What's on your mind? Yeah, well, where to start, I suppose? Well, as one gobby leftist to another
32:48
I've been running a business for 38 years. and so I've gone through several governments
32:55
and numerous challenges whether it's Brexit which is the big one the pandemic
33:02
you know there's a whole host of things I used to have a meeting with the bank manager every year
33:07
where we had to second guess the next catastrophe and we never got it right
33:11
but anyway the point about this is this current government you can't start blaming this current government
33:18
for the problems which were created by previous governments. And the thing about being an employer is you have a fundamental responsibility to your workers
33:31
That is your first responsibility. You have to pay them well. I could not conceive of paying minimum wage
33:40
I could not conceive of using zero-hour contracts. I am the lowest paid person in my business for good reason
33:49
And that's because it's the people who work with me, not for me, but with me, who produce the results
33:55
I'm only benefiting from their endeavours. And it is a shared endeavour
34:00
And so Jeremy Clarkson, who I used to like when he was on Top Gear, although he knew very little about the subject at that point
34:10
Don't say that. But nowadays, I can't abide the man. Really? Yeah
34:15
Oh, come on. He's a bit lazy, that's all, because he's clever and he's funny
34:19
and he writes quite beautifully. But it's much easier to throw balls at the biggest coconuts, isn't it
34:27
There's no particular skill. It's almost like he wastes his talents. To some degree, but he is..
34:34
But then he's worth 65 million quid, so, you know. I don't think he's going to agree with that critique
34:41
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you just want him to be on the side of the angels, don't you
34:45
You want him to be using those skills and those talents. And I think he's possessed of empathy in a way that many more obviously right-wing commentators clearly aren't
34:53
You just like him to be using those powers for good rather than, well, in defence of Tories
34:59
who, of course, put national insurance up in about, I think it was January of 2024, just before the general election
35:05
So they put national insurance up, necessitating put it down, I beg your pardon, necessitating Labour putting it back up again just to keep things on an even keel
35:16
And as we are increasingly persuaded, they only called Rishi Sunak only called the early general election because the prisons crisis was about to explode and he didn't want to be in post for that
35:26
And then they will form an orderly queue to pretend that that was all Keir Starmer's and Rachel Reeves's fault as well
35:33
Thank you, Chris. 0345 6060973 is the number you need if you genuinely can tell me that you would be now
35:41
opening another business or starting a business but you've looked into it and it's all about that pesky Rachel Reeves
35:48
essentially reversing the cut to national insurance that Jeremy Hunt brought in a few weeks before the last general election
35:55
if it wasn't for that, that six month window when Jeremy Hunt's situation was in place
36:04
and the reversal of it, that six-month window when you could have done it
36:11
but you didn't. 10.45 is the time. James O'Brien on LBC. Listen, I take your point
36:17
What Clarkson wrote about Meghan Markle was absolutely and objectively hideous. I mean, truly, truly disgusting
36:24
But it doesn't alter the general timbre of the positive words I had to say about the rest of his output over the years
36:33
Some of the rest of his output. Did I tell you about the time my mother-in-law cut one of his columns out of the Sunday Times
36:39
Because she thought he was complimenting me. She said, oh, look at this, Jeremy Clarkson loves you
36:43
And I said, pardon? And he'd written something. I love James. I love the way he genuinely can't understand why people don't agree with him
36:50
So it wasn't a particularly cutting insult, but it certainly wasn't quite the compliment that my beloved mother-in-law thought that it was
36:58
And then you look back over all the things that I felt very strongly about
37:02
And don't I feel stupid for suggesting that austerity would be a disaster or that Brexit would be a disaster or that Boris Johnson would be a disaster or that Liz Truss would be a disaster or that Donald Trump would be a disaster or that climate change was real or that Benjamin Netanyahu was going to be a disaster
37:16
not just for the rest of the world and most obviously Gaza and the West Bank
37:21
but for Israel as well. All of those things where I just couldn believe people didn agree with me and more for me And Rhys is in Telford Rhys what would you like to say yeah morning james and it more to just try and give some hope back to people that actually there
37:35
are opportunities out there yes and i'm fortunate to be in a position now where i'm almost too busy
37:42
with work and considering taking somebody on so i would probably start to look at the apprenticeship
37:48
roots um but the kind of birthplace of my business came from seeing a father that definitely
37:55
struggled by bouncing between job to job and then eventually went self-employed and it was only once
38:01
he went self-employed i started to see the security within that i mean it's not guaranteed
38:06
is it but it's certainly clearly worked for your old man no and he went abroad he worked in germany
38:12
as a builder through the 90s especially during that period and only when he later became self-employed
38:17
in the surveying industry that he it's not guaranteed as you say but he found more consistency
38:25
with work and now it's the point where i have followed a similar path worked for other people
38:30
who set really good standards as a business employer worked for other people from that
38:35
that then set horrendous standards as an employer okay and said i can do this so much better and out
38:41
of necessity. I just decided to go self-employed. And how's it going
38:47
I'm struggling to meet the demand at the moment. Oh, that's great. It's not great for a country that needs
38:53
growth, because we want you to meet the demand. So that would mean taking someone else on soon
38:57
perhaps. Hopefully. I mean, I've helped train up surveyors in the past
39:01
I've got one that's fully fledged and is now a surveyor. And now I'm looking at taking somebody
39:07
else on to actually keep in-house. But I think for me, the
39:11
issue is actually trusting somebody to come in and and meet the standards that you have set which
39:18
is why i'm looking more to the apprenticeship route i like that yeah so there is stuff there
39:23
and it hasn't been your plans or your hopes have not been scuppered by um rachel reed's policies i
39:30
think there's a slight nuance in the in the national insurance stuff that i i overlooked
39:34
slightly is that Hunt reduced the employee, it's the difference between the employees and the
39:42
employers, isn't it? But no one cited that. What you might discover, of course, is that Brexit has
39:47
affected the likelihood of that or something has affected the likelihood of there being
39:52
enthusiastic young candidates itching to join you. Yeah, I think for Brexit, for me, I was
39:57
I mean, I'm 29 now. So Brexit was probably the first thing I was able to vote on
40:01
but I didn't really experience employment outside of bar work or restaurant work before that
40:10
so it's not something I've noticed a change with. It's just something I've always known
40:16
Yeah, and I hear it, and I like that idea. See, that's demystified it slightly
40:21
I'm sitting here thinking there's some sort of special sauce, some magic beans that make some people want to be entrepreneurs
40:26
but of course, if you've been, quotes, lucky, end quotes, enough to have very positive experiences of being an employee, then one of the major impetuses
40:34
one of the big drives of setting up on your own is taken away. And it demystifies it as well. It's
40:41
not really a question of thinking, well, I'm just built differently. I've just had a slightly
40:45
different experience. I wish you well, Rhys. Rhys, are you in Telford? I mean, is that home
40:53
Wolverhampton's home. I'm working in Telford on the property today. Okay. Because the phone in that I don't think I'm ever going to be able to have on this program
40:59
is who is better, Thomas Telford or Isambard Kingdom Brunel? That is a phone-in I would..
41:06
I mean, you're in the business, sort of. That is a phone-in I would really like to have. But even I don't think that our powers would extend
41:12
to turning that into a sort of a radio dogfight. Just to get it straight
41:17
Jeremy Hunt reduced employees' national insurance, which is paid by the employee
41:21
Rachel Reeves increased employers' national insurance paid by the employer. I think that's clear. I hope that's right
41:29
from Rhys to Ryan and from Telford to Basingstoke. Ryan, what would you like to say
41:33
Hi, James. Hello, mate. Long-time listener. Welcome. I just wanted to quickly say, actually
41:39
and what you just, the point you just said about the raising of the employer
41:43
national insurance, that has affected us. So I own a recruitment company
41:48
which is basically you're paid on billing. But what's recently happened with the rise of base salaries or a salary
41:57
it's really difficult for us as a company relatively small to be able to then hire
42:03
multiple people with higher salaries if they're not actually billing so we would when i first got
42:09
into eight years ago you'd have a relatively low base salary it's all relative would be like 12 to
42:15
15 000 but then you have massive incentives on commission right that's now hugely changed like
42:20
there's people done the job for a year that want 35 to 40 000 pound base salaries and that's a
42:26
cross recruitment um and how can they get i mean so again it's a shortage of people though it's a
42:33
buyer's market right you're the seller that is it is that right yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
42:38
and the the issue that we also face is is that if you've got i mean i i was lucky i worked for a
42:46
really good company who um the owners and founders were people that you would look up to me and my
42:53
partner, director, I should say, business partner, we went, well, we could do this
42:57
Little not knowing that when you own a business, it's not just recruiting. It's obviously then payroll, HR
43:03
running multiple different things. So it's a massive learning curve as well
43:07
that you have to take, which then your day goes from nine hours to 14
43:11
Why has this happened, Ryan? Because it's interesting. Why has the expectation of your entry-level staff
43:16
reached such a high level at a time when we keep reading about almost the opposite
43:22
it for is it specific to the recruitment industry uh well i could only talk for the recruitment
43:27
industry so why do you think this has happened what's changed in that 10 year window that has
43:31
seen relatively new recruits go from being happy with a low base salary and really good commission
43:36
to demanding a higher base salary and you feeling that you had little choice but to pay it yeah well
43:42
i think it was all to do with the cost of living i think it's just people then were going well i
43:47
can't risk going on let's say 15 000 pounds a year with the incentives of going well you could earn
43:55
150 to 200k and all this other rubbish that people spout because in your first year two years it
44:01
doesn't happen you've got to build pipelines and so forth but how i mean be honest with me then
44:05
because some people will just be getting smelling a slight rat i mean how likely would it be if i
44:11
joined your company that i would actually take home little more than 20 grand back in the day
44:16
or 15 grand even. Wait, but then that's according to the individual
44:20
and how much... But would it have happened? Because I might just not be very good at it
44:25
and I mean well, and I'm trying my best. I know what sales is like
44:28
So you're talking about people who would conceivably have ended up not earning enough money really to live on
44:37
Yeah, but again... What do you mean, yeah, but? It's a yes or no, isn't it
44:41
It is a yes, but the caveat is, because I've sit and seen people
44:47
Recruitment is a very relatively simple job. Yes. You're going from A to B with an individual
44:53
You've got three things that are variable. Yeah, yeah. But it how much work and effort you want to put in But it not is it Because it sales It not No no it is Because there magic to it Some people can sell ice to the Eskimos
45:05
But you can't. Recruitment is not sales in particular. It's people management
45:10
It's relationship management. But if you really wanted to do well, anybody can
45:16
And I would, anybody that wants to do well, email me. So you're cross, or not cross, you're describing a scenario
45:22
in which you are required to pay quite high base salaries to people who are not actually producing the goods
45:29
And you believe willfully, you believe there's a sense of entitlement there
45:33
that wasn't there before. Because if I'm on 15 grand a year and I'm not earning decent commission
45:37
there's nothing to stop me going somewhere else, is there? No, absolutely not
45:41
But then I would want the people that, or I think most people would
45:45
would want the will to go and get the more money. Because there's people that you'll see in the office
45:49
that are doing well, and they're not doing anything different to you and picking up the phone or doing the job
45:55
And I think that is... But going back to, sorry, is the whole, from a business owner perspective
46:02
is the way now that with the NI, the pension, which obviously you should have and pay
46:09
I'm not disputing that, but the levels that now, it makes it a lot more expensive
46:13
on top of all the other things that you need to provide. Laptop, a license called a LinkedIn license
46:19
that's £6,000 a year. so all of a sudden you've got someone a year or a year and a half you're already in for 40 000
46:26
pounds they then need to bill at least let's be honest 80 000 pounds for you to make any
46:32
conceivable margin on the person or what's the point and i did have a really good idea that i
46:38
felt gone that i'd love to do i i would say they should for businesses under the for businesses
46:43
maybe with less than 20 employees they should say well if you then employ x amount of people
46:49
we'll reduce your corporation tax by X amount of percentage to incentivise people to go and take a risk
46:56
Because that's what it is. It's a risk in my industry, for example
47:00
To hire someone new and just lower the costs of hiring someone new
47:05
until the risk had either paid off or crashed and burned. Yeah, a little bit
47:11
And if you're saying, well, I'm going to employ over the next two years, let's say 10 to 15 people, well, they say, OK
47:16
well then your corporation tax can go down by x percentage, five, six, seven
47:22
because Rachel Reeves didn't mind saying to Amazon or Google... No, that's true. That's true
47:27
Yeah, she didn't mind saying to them... You can have an incentive, you can have an inducement to do it
47:33
but not for the smaller businesses. Look after the pennies, as it were, Ryan
47:37
and the pounds will look after themselves. Yeah, which then infuriates people that, well, what
47:42
because we can only employ 10 to 15, it doesn't make as important as Amazon
47:46
that are employing the thousands, which I understand. If there's thousands of businesses like you
47:51
then the economy of scale kicks in, doesn't it? But I mean, in the first instance
47:55
the big companies are going to make a bigger impact to the national bottom line
47:59
So there's a logic to what she's doing, but there's a logic to what you suggest as well. What's interesting, I knew coming in at the end
48:05
to point out that the national insurance changes add to already considerable burdens
48:10
but the biggest thing you mentioned was the LinkedIn licence. and I don't know actually we did didn't we Rod the first caller was in hospitality but
48:17
generally speaking I wonder whether Clarkson's position is more peculiar to the hospitality
48:23
industry than it is to anything else but that leaves us with the question of why
48:27
the hospitality business that he already has isn't closing down if it's so hard to wash your face or
48:34
to make any money it is hard it is hard to run a business everyone listening to this knows that
48:40
who runs a business. It's harder to be an employer than it is to be an employee in many ways
48:44
But we need to be clear-eyed about what governments could and should be doing
48:48
to make it easier or unnecessarily harder. And I'm drawn to the lad
48:54
who's got a significant proportion of his smallish workforce on government-provided training programs
49:02
That, to me, is the political divide. What's the government going to do? It's going to think about workers
49:08
and how employers can be better from the workers' point of view
49:13
And then a right-wing government is thinking about how we can make life better for employers
49:18
and hope that they then spread the love to their workforce. There's a logic to both of those positions, but I suppose you'd have to look to history
49:26
to judge which one is more efficient. It's 11.02. James O'Brien on LBC
49:34
Five minutes after 11 is the time. and you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
49:41
I can't quite find a way into the Kemi-Badanox stuff this morning
49:46
You know I don't like to criticise colleagues, but how dare Nick Ferrari expect the leader of the opposition
49:51
to have even the vaguest grasp of the detail of the big policy announcement that she's made today
49:57
I mean, come on. It's almost as if the whole thing was simply designed so that they could have a front page of the Sun newspaper
50:03
that says, let me get this, That's an iron dome lady. Do you get it
50:08
Iron dome lady. Because it's like iron lady, but with a dome
50:13
Yeah. I think the entire policy has been done just so that they can do that
50:17
And that's why when she came on with Nick earlier and he asked her to go into a little bit of detail about what it actually is
50:22
apart from a front page, she couldn't. I think that's disgusting of Ferrari
50:28
How dare he expect her to have the first idea about the major policy announcement of the day from her own party's conference
50:35
She's Kemi Badenok. She is the special source. She doesn't need any grasp of the facts
50:42
She's an engineer, for goodness sake, who worked at Cootes Bank and the Spectator Bank
50:47
She's an engineer, for God's sake. She could probably build it herself out of pipe cleaners and old tin cans made of iron, not tin
50:57
So there you have it, the woman who never makes gaffes, proving once again that she is the woman who never makes gaffes
51:03
But I can't really see a way into it. £10 billion. It's called Britannia Shield, which I'm pretty sure
51:09
did I not see this morning, Britannia Shield is also the name of an insurance policy
51:15
from the early 80s? I could be completely wrong about this. It sounds like a bowls tournament that you might find on ITV4
51:24
doesn't it? The Britannia Shield. We used to have a building society called Britannia
51:28
I had an account there. Anyway, I digress because we're not going to be talking about that. We're going to be talking about something rather different and rather poignant
51:38
I'm going to tell you something that's very funny, but it is about a subject that is anything but
51:43
So speaking of beloved and esteemed colleagues, I used to hand over to somebody else on this program about 100 years ago
51:51
and sometimes it would appear that they hadn't been paying an enormous amount of attention
51:57
to what had happened immediately before. So we'd be in different studios then
52:03
Now, as you can probably tell, when Sheila comes in at one o'clock, she sits in the same room as me
52:07
We can see each other and pull faces at each other and throw, you know
52:12
chewed up bits of tissue at each other and stuff like that without you knowing unless you're watching later on YouTube
52:17
But back in the day, the person who came on after me
52:21
would be in a different studio. So we used to do this thing where we used to do a game called Beat the Suite This is quite hard to believe if you have a relatively recent arrival at LBC
52:35
But we went through a phase of trying to sort of wean ourselves off
52:38
an unleavened diet of news. So, you know, we'd be encouraged to be silly
52:43
and to do things on air that were not current affairs adjacent
52:47
or current affairs defined. And so Beat the Suite was one of the ridiculous games I invented
52:52
I would put a suite in my mouth and then you would ring me and I could only answer yes or no
52:58
to whatever question you asked and through a process of elimination, caller after caller
53:04
I think you stayed on until you got a no. So as soon as you got a no
53:09
we moved on to the next call and you were seeking to establish what sweet I was eating
53:14
Would that be in the archives, Eleanor? Would there be any old episodes of Beat the Sweet
53:17
or is that all lost to the ages? God, what a terrible, terrible tragedy that would be
53:22
And then one summer, it was quite hot. So we came up with the idea of evolving Beat the Sweet into what we decided
53:32
to call Good Golly Miss Lolly. And this would involve me eating a lolly and you ringing it
53:38
Well, you can work out the next bit that would happen and you would try and work out what
53:43
lolly I was drinking. And my friend Alex, who worked here at the time, was a very talented
53:47
musician and he recorded a song for us he recorded a really raucous guitar electric guitar version of
53:55
good golly miss lally and and he would so we would play that out and i was so delighted with it
54:00
it's almost as if i haven't changed at all it was when i got some production on but we could do it
54:04
ourselves in those days so we got some production i liked it so much i played it out several times
54:09
in the course of uh the final sort of 10 minutes of the program and my beloved colleague who came
54:15
on after me obviously wasn't listening because we played out good golly miss lally about three
54:20
times in five minutes and we got to the end of it and i'm just getting to the end of the show i go oh go on then um is up next and before i go one last blast and then we played alex going good golly
54:31
miss lally and then and then my colleague came on and was obviously preparing a conversation about
54:38
an entirely different and much more serious subject so you have the dying chords of this diy
54:44
Y musical interlude, followed by, in a very heavy voice, in a very serious tone, quite rightly, my colleague simply going
54:53
cancer. And it was awful. I mean, it was so awkward and uncomfortable and incongruous
55:02
but it was a consequence of the person taking over from me not having listened to the end of the programme
55:07
that they were taking over from. If I'd known that they were going to do that, there's no way I'd have played that silly song
55:11
immediately prior to them introducing a very serious topic. And it is the very serious topic that I want to introduce now
55:19
I was with a wonderful, wonderful person. I was with Lisa Faulkner yesterday, who you will know from not just her acting, of course
55:26
but latterly her food broadcasting and her recipe books. And Lisa, as you may know, has recently described her recovery from her treatment for breast cancer
55:39
She's almost exactly my age. And my wife and I, my wife's a couple of years younger than me
55:45
I'm in my soon-to-be mid-50s. My wife and I have really noticed recently that people in our circle
55:54
friends and I don't think family at the moment touch wood, but friends of around our age and younger, getting cancer
56:05
People who we thought would be too young to get it. getting it. We've had a couple of friends with prostate cancer and a couple with bowel cancer
56:17
and three or four people that we know, not like our best friends, but three or four people in our
56:23
orbit who have had breast cancer recently. And we've been talking to each other about it
56:29
We've been saying, is it getting... First of all, we've been conscious of
56:35
getting tested ourselves, so doing the prostate test or going for a mammogram
56:39
And second of all, we've been wondering whether this was just freakish, whether this was a trend that would hold true outside of our orbit
56:48
outside of our social circle. And so when I saw the headline today, very, very stark headline
56:54
sharp rise in under-50s cancers, a ticking time bomb, say experts. Seven types of cancer have risen sharply among younger people in England
57:05
prompting warnings that lifestyle choices are costing thousands of lives. each year. It's not just here either. English, US and Dutch data crunched by the World Cancer
57:17
Research Fund has identified significant increases in early onset cancer for seven types in England
57:24
five in the US and four in the Netherlands. So for at least two or three of these
57:31
there have to be reasons that are specific to how we live here that perhaps explain
57:38
the uptick. And the rate of rise in early onset cases was higher for the under 50s
57:46
than it was for other ages. So it's going up across the board. But cancer among the under 50s
57:52
while still uncommon, is now subject to a very, very worrying trend. And
58:00
I think it's important to talk about this. I think that the first way into this conversation
58:08
is to explore what it's like to be young. Because normally the median age at diagnosis is above 60
58:20
So in your mind, this is what I was talking to Lisa about yesterday. I mentioned that because it's going to be on a forthcoming episode
58:26
a very soon episode of Full Disclosure. But talking, and she lost her mum to cancer
58:31
which is something else that she talks about very, very powerfully, and somehow managed to, at a young age
58:37
managed to sort of shut down that part of her brain. And I think we all do that. We're all conscious, oh, this might come for us one day
58:43
What were we talking about the other day? It was dementia, wasn't it? And that fear of getting it means it's an issue
58:51
that you approach differently from the things that you've somehow persuaded yourself you're not going to get
58:55
I've never had cancer in my immediate family I've had one of my closest friends
59:00
die of a brain tumour but it wasn't actually a cancerous tumour, it just
59:05
got big enough to blow to make his life unlivable, to kill him
59:11
sorry, it's not a euphemism is it it killed him so I don't know what it's like if you grow up
59:18
with it, if you grow up in the shadow of losing a parent to it or not but
59:23
most of us, I suspect, when we're in our 40s, we kind of keep it
59:30
it's something that isn't going to affect us. It's something that's not going to bother us
59:34
So, you know what the question is on subjects like this that I ask first
59:40
What's it like to get a cancer diagnosis at an age that you didn't think it
59:47
could or would happen? It's the age element to it that I'm interested in
59:51
today. What is it like to get that diagnosis at an age
59:57
as in before you're 50 where you just didn't have it on your list of things that might go wrong
1:00:06
So it's happened to you or yours, and the role that age plays in it is the thing I'd like you to talk to me about
1:00:13
0345 6060 973 is the number that you need. Lots of you reflecting upon that anecdotal evidence I provided of this phenomenon before
1:00:25
I saw the research this morning, five people in one family here being diagnosed
1:00:29
Those two have already passed away. It's a 34-year-old sister. Not, I hope, one of the ones that passed away
1:00:37
because that would be horribly young. But that relationship with age, I don't know what we're going to do about it
1:00:42
That's not a phone-in that we can have yet. But I do know this, and it's slightly weird, this question
1:00:49
and because I don't currently have any skin in this particular game, it might not be an appropriate question
1:00:54
but I have a feeling that it will prove to be. What do you wish you'd known
1:00:59
so if you get that diagnosis of cancer at a an implausibly or an unexpectedly young age and we're
1:01:08
talking about adulthood here we're talking about you know the what you might call the lifestyle
1:01:13
cancers that you didn't expect to get until your life had gone um quite a bit further what role does
1:01:23
that age play in it and crucially what do you wish you'd known what do you wish you'd known
1:01:28
doesn't have to be you it could be loved ones maybe that question applies even more to the
1:01:34
loved ones than it does to the i don't know actually as you can tell i'm just completely
1:01:38
sort of thinking out loud on this one but the relationship the role that age plays in the
1:01:43
diagnosis and the things that you'd wish you'd known because we're going to have to change as a
1:01:48
society we're going to have to test more and earlier presumably most obviously in the areas of
1:01:56
breasts and prostates. The number of prostate cancer cases among men under 50 has gone from one in
1:02:04
every 100,000, so it's small, to 3.6 in every 100,000 over a 20-year period. And so
1:02:12
that's gone up by 350%. And yeah, the numbers are still small, but not if it's
1:02:20
you. Nothing feels small about it. I don't think we can speculate on what the lifestyle things are
1:02:27
but we know that processed foods aren't very good for us. We know that alcohol isn't very good for us
1:02:31
I think the smoking lesson has been more or less learned, but, you know, these little packets of tobacco that people have in their mouth
1:02:38
or the vaping, I don't know. That's a conversation for a different day
1:02:42
Today's conversation is about the worrying nature of lifestyle factors contributing to thousands of deaths
1:02:49
and that meaning that you're now more likely to get it at the kind of age where you didn't think in a million years that you would actually get it
1:02:55
It's 11.19. James O'Brien on LBC. 21 minutes after 11 is the time
1:03:03
Seven types of cancer in this country are increasing rapidly among the under 50s
1:03:10
Four types have doubled in the under 50s. And the situation is worse in England than it is in comparable countries
1:03:17
The other countries in the research, the United States and the Netherlands
1:03:22
I think and we can't do the why of it although they are what you would describe as lifestyle
1:03:27
linked conditions but we can do the how of it or the what of it and what it is like when these
1:03:35
grenades go off in your life years before you might realistically have expected them to and
1:03:40
I'm adding in I'm just out of curiosity really a question about what you wish you'd known Ben's
1:03:45
in Cheltenham. Ben, what made you pick up the phone? Hi, James. It was..
1:03:50
It chimes with me. I was 44. I was expecting a baby. I wasn't. My wife was
1:03:57
expecting a baby in seven weeks, and I got this letter through the post saying
1:04:01
come in again, and I'd had a biopsy. I was going to the toilet a lot
1:04:07
and they diagnosed me with prostate cancer. What made you go for the test at 44
1:04:13
Yeah, it was a few complicated things. But mainly, I work on a topical TV show
1:04:24
and something was said on there, which made me chime a bit
1:04:28
And then I started to go to the toilet, just for a week
1:04:33
I'm talking every 45 minutes. Oh, okay. You're not in the pub at this point
1:04:40
This is normal service. A few years ago. Yeah. And I remember once yawning
1:04:45
I was going that long. And I was like, oh, my. So I went
1:04:49
They didn't. I did all of the tests you can do at the docks
1:04:53
and they didn't find anything. Right. Because of your age. They may not have been looking for
1:04:58
I remember the doctor telling me, you haven't got this, but we're going to change
1:05:02
He was a really great doctor. Yeah. And he said, but I want to get your PSA tested again
1:05:08
Yeah. And then I did. and then I got a call back because it was twice
1:05:13
It was only a tiny bit higher than normal. I just got really lucky, and I got really, really lucky
1:05:20
because Cheltenham's got a urology apartment. And they got it? Yeah, yeah, they got it. They took it all out
1:05:27
So this is prostate cancer? Yeah, prostate cancer. At 44? 44. I was diagnosed at 44. They think I'd had it earlier
1:05:34
Really? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, presumably, I mean, there's the horror of it happening
1:05:41
the fear of what might happen, and then there's the, hang on a minute, I'm only 44 in a minute of it
1:05:46
It is, yeah. I've said to you, my family tend to die of heart attacks in the male line
1:05:54
and I just wasn't expecting that sort of thing. I'm glad I can ask you this question against the backdrop of successful treatment and recovery
1:06:05
but does it change the way you look at the world? Because I'm fascinated by mortality
1:06:10
and the fact that somewhere inside, I interviewed Eric Cantona about 15 years ago
1:06:15
and I swear to you, Ben, he looked me in the eye and he told me he was immortal
1:06:20
And in that moment, I know he's as mad as a boatload of seagulls
1:06:25
but he did kind of mean it. And I look back on that sometimes and I think
1:06:29
I kind of get that. We all think we are somehow. We're not
1:06:33
No, and you get hit presumably pretty hard with that realisation. Probably going to, you know
1:06:40
some thinking that sort of thing is going to get whacked even harder. Yes, exactly. So I lost my dad 10 years ago
1:06:45
so I kind of feel like my sense of mortality kicked in then, really
1:06:49
because you're losing your parents at a relatively early age, very unexpectedly, and they were fairly young
1:06:56
And then this was just chaos. I mean, the major thing was financial
1:07:03
I tell anybody. I tell anybody, especially if they haven't got a secure job like I've got
1:07:12
try and get some sort of insurance, because it's nearly destroyed us with finances
1:07:20
Because you couldn't work for a straight. Yeah, yeah. How long were you out of action for I was out four or five months but then I already been off a couple of months before because my wife had this thing called hyperemesis during pregnancy right and you freelance if you in this
1:07:37
business so there's no no no no work going on nothing coming in yeah and it coincided with that
1:07:43
excuse for prime minister trust oh lordy doing what she did and then our work just fell off the
1:07:51
side of the world so it's never really come back properly like it used to so we are still
1:07:56
still feeling it now three four years later I bet you are and that would be the thing
1:08:01
that you wish you'd known the simple because you don't even when are you going to think about money if you're
1:08:07
worrying about your life but of course as soon as you can find space in your head to
1:08:11
worry about anything other than the cancer it's going to be the cash what are we going to do
1:08:15
got a young family got a baby on the way I mean yeah we did Lordy. But anyway, I mean, you're in a much better place now than you were then
1:08:22
We're getting there now, yeah. We've had a... I'm on trials for prostate cancer
1:08:28
People who are trying to get... There's a trial for people under 70
1:08:33
Your clasters... OK. Your clasters... What's the word? Your clasters... I'm trying to find the right word, sorry
1:08:44
If you're under 70, your clasters, not infantile, but junior, oh okay you shouldn't be getting it yeah you're not going to get called that very often are you
1:08:52
for the rest of your yeah no you're not um i haven't got the right word there no that's all
1:08:57
right so someone will know yeah but that the other thing just briefly that anecdotal thing i mentioned
1:09:04
just simply comes from not knowing people who've been in your sort of situation too lads i can sort
1:09:10
of see in my mind's eye now as i'm talking to you but the when you've been through it you're more
1:09:15
attuned to clocking other people doing it. So are you less surprised than
1:09:19
others will be by the news today that under 50s like you
1:09:23
cancer diagnoses... No, because as soon as you're in that zone you just clock it when it's happening to other people
1:09:29
differently. Yeah, I've even worked on shows where they're giving out cancer information and I'm
1:09:35
looking at saying that. I think they said something about when Joe Biden was poorly
1:09:39
And they said, oh, it'll really help the people in their 80s
1:09:43
And I think that means basically But, you know, it's giving a free pass to everybody to think they'll be fine
1:09:48
Yes, I think that we do. I think we do. I mean, it's human nature, isn't it
1:09:53
You offer me a little scintilla of hope that this great, big, horrible problem that may come down the road at me one day is still a long way off
1:10:01
I'm probably going to bite your arm off. And yet, of course, your experiences tell us that that's complacent
1:10:07
And the news today tells us that it's becoming increasingly dangerous to be glib like that
1:10:12
Take care, mate. That's a good story. It's a positive story. You were, in your own words, you were lucky, unlucky to get it
1:10:19
lucky to spot it and get it dealt with so quickly. And 44, baby on the way
1:10:24
This is the thing, isn't it, that the early diagnoses, or rather the under-50s diagnosis, speak to
1:10:31
They speak to the idea that it comes along at a time when you've got enough going on, and it's never a good time for it
1:10:38
but you were just not expecting this thing to be added to your list of things to deal with
1:10:44
We've got quite a lot to get through today, so we may stay with this for a little longer than the single hour
1:10:48
Simon will be with me at quarter to 12 to extend our Simon streak
1:10:54
That's the game that we're playing today. We've come so far since the days of Beat the Sweet
1:10:59
I want to get some input on this French revolting students. That's one of my favourite puns
1:11:05
I don't know why. It's been one of my favourite puns since I was a revolting student. But the students are revolting in Paris
1:11:11
and I want to know more about that. and then my colleague Joseph Draper
1:11:14
has an extraordinary story a follow up actually in a way to the story he brought you some time ago
1:11:19
about a British man dying while in service to Vladimir Putin while in the Russian army
1:11:26
and we've got an extraordinary follow up to that today as well I think it might be called young onset prostate cancer
1:11:31
but don't take my word for it James O'Brien on LBC LBC's charity makes some noises
1:11:38
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1:12:41
James O'Brien on LBC. It is 11.34 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:12:49
Looking at the English angle on this story about cancers, four types of cancer doubling in the under 50s
1:12:58
seven types of cancer seeing unprecedented increases in England. Professor Chris Elliott is the founder of the Institute for Global Food Security at Queen's University Belfast
1:13:09
And that I said, there's no point looking for the reasons. But I mean, people like him do
1:13:16
And he said the increase in early onset disease has to be down to our environment, what we eat, what we drink
1:13:22
Also, remember, you're ingesting things involuntarily as well. In the modern world, there's stuff floating around in the water, stuff floating around in the air that may be having impact on things
1:13:32
cancer, although it's harder to see how they would be specific to England or that England
1:13:36
might have a greater incidence of them. One of the main suspects, says this professor, that certainly I've been pursuing for about
1:13:44
10 years, is the use of a particular class of chemicals in the processing of meats
1:13:50
This is particularly in bacon and ham. Nitrates or nitrites, they're called
1:13:55
And I don't know, do we eat more ham than more bacon
1:13:59
Possibly. But anyway, that is a side issue, really, to the central question about getting cancer when you are an age that you really, really didn't expect it
1:14:10
And what that does to you and crucially, I think, what you wish you'd known
1:14:14
So the first lesson that we take away from Ben is perhaps the most obvious, although I'd missed it
1:14:19
Money, you know, if you're out of action for a few months, then that old thing we always talk about on the program
1:14:26
about the number of pay packets you'd have to miss before the proverbial really hits the fan
1:14:33
becomes even more acute, doesn't it? 11.36 is the time. Bob's in Durham
1:14:37
Bob, what would you like to say? Hi, James. Yes, I was right on the cusp of the under-15
1:14:43
In fact, I was 50 years old when I was diagnosed with lymphoma. Still no age, is it? You weren't expecting it at that age
1:14:49
No, no, it's actually quite young for that type of cancer, I was told. It's the first time I've been called young in quite a while
1:14:54
Take it where you can find it eh So I started off when my tonsils grew to a broad size The first time I noticed it was my wife complaining about me snoring
1:15:05
Okay. Which, you know, at that age, you kind of expect that. Yeah. But my tonsils got really, really big
1:15:09
What did she say? Did she say this isn't like your normal snoring
1:15:13
or were you not previously a snorer? No, I was. Well, I have been, but no
1:15:18
So, she knew this was a bit... Okay. I just think this stuff is really interesting, actually
1:15:23
You know, those little things in a family or in a relationship where somebody else knows that something's changed
1:15:29
Yeah, I shouldn't have just been what I did. But actually, my tonsil got so big that I literally couldn't breathe at some point
1:15:37
As I turned my head to the side, I was literally choking. And because you're a man, you didn't go to the doctors as soon as you should have done
1:15:43
Or not? Yeah, probably. Well, yeah. I mean, could I tell you the story of my initial diagnosis
1:15:48
Yeah, go on. I'm just worried about the phone line. So bear with me for a moment, and if it gets worse
1:15:53
then we'll try and fix it and come back. But you crack on for the time being. Yeah, so I went to my GP, and the GP said
1:15:59
oh, you've got a tonsil infection, take some paracetamol and come back. And the second GP that I went to see, wait later, gave me some antibiotics
1:16:08
And then the third GP looked at my throat and went, oh, my God, I think we need to do something about that
1:16:14
So, yeah, that's how it started. What made you go back three times? Because the tonsil was so big, I was almost choking to death
1:16:20
And it wasn't getting better, so the paracetamol didn't. I mean, that is fairly shameful, isn't it
1:16:26
Paracetamol for this. Yeah. Reminds me, there was a nurse at my prep school who used to give us a fisherman's friend whatever was wrong with us
1:16:32
and one lad had a broken, I kid you not, a broken collarbone
1:16:35
and she sent him back to class with a fisherman's friend. And then the antibiotics, I guess, more forgivable
1:16:40
because it looked like an infection. And then the other GP, I nearly said bloke then
1:16:45
which would have been a bit of casual sexism. No, it wasn't. It was a woman. There you go. You see, I'm glad you go. Saved myself
1:16:50
The other GP, she looks down your gullet and just knows straight away that this is something much more serious
1:16:54
Yeah, she put me on an immediate two-week cancer waiting list. Wow
1:16:59
So I had to go through haematology and ENT. I had to have a tonsillectomy, which was painful
1:17:04
I've had another one since because the symptoms reoccurred, but actually I'm fine. Oh, good
1:17:08
So, yeah, then I had to have chemotherapy, so I lost all my hair, which was pretty grim
1:17:13
Oh, Lord. And it absolutely broke me, I'll be honest. What, losing your hair
1:17:18
Yeah, not just bad. You mean the whole chemotherapy thing? Yeah, I think the worst thing is that nobody tells you about it
1:17:24
It's the effects on your mental health as well as your physical health. Tell me. I mean, I was just so down
1:17:30
I mean, I had four or five rounds of chemo, I can't remember
1:17:35
But after the first one, three days in, I was just a mess
1:17:39
I was just broken. And is there help for you with that kind of stuff in place
1:17:43
I did actually get some help via Macmillan. and the nursing put me in touch with a therapist
1:17:49
and she helped me talk through things. So, yeah, it was really horrible
1:17:53
I mean, yeah. Do you know what causes it might have been or not
1:17:58
Is that not something that is discussed? No, well, no, I did. I asked and they said there was nothing definite
1:18:03
It wasn't genetic. It wasn't. I asked if it was down to alcohol
1:18:07
I said possibly, but not definitely. It won't have helped. It's just one of those things
1:18:12
It doesn't help with anything, but it's not going to be the crikey. And how long were you out of action for
1:18:16
About seven or eight months, I think. And that must take a toll on every other aspect
1:18:21
Yeah, it does, absolutely. It just breaks it. I mean, it was over Christmas as well, so I remember going into Durham City Centre
1:18:27
to try and buy my wife a Christmas present in the parking car and walked about 120 yards
1:18:31
and had to sit down because I just couldn't do it. I just had no energy
1:18:35
It was just awful. And that's another reason why the age element is so interesting, isn't it
1:18:39
Because you are not expecting to be frail or fragile at that age
1:18:43
No, absolutely. And then suddenly you are. Suddenly you are. Yeah, very much so
1:18:47
I mean, even getting up the stairs some days was horrible. You know, it's just really difficult
1:18:52
I can imagine. And actually, it's that aspect of what it does to your mental health that people don't really talk about
1:18:57
Well, I put that on the list of the things you wish you'd known, that it was going to take a huge toll on you emotionally and mentally
1:19:02
And that, of course, affects everybody around you as well, doesn't it? That's part of it. Yeah, I mean, my wife was, you know, I mean, I've got a youngster
1:19:09
He's not so young now, it's four years. But he was doing his GCSEs at the time
1:19:13
and I had to tell him a couple of weeks before he sat a couple of his GCSEs
1:19:17
I kept it from him as long as he could, but down to a point where I was going to start chemo
1:19:22
I was going to go bald, and I had to tell him. He might have noticed. I mean, they can be quite self-absorbed at that age
1:19:27
but he might have noticed. I think he'd have noticed that. I think he would
1:19:31
I mean, I'm fine now, which is the main thing. I can tell, but it's changed you
1:19:35
It changes you. Yeah, it does. I mean, I've been through something similar. I had similar symptoms
1:19:40
and I've been waiting. Would you believe I had to wait five weeks from the transaction to find out whether or not I was all right or not
1:19:47
I actually had to contact my MP to get them to deal with it
1:19:51
because I chased up the hospital for confirmation whether everything was all right and I couldn't get any answers
1:19:57
and I ended up complaining to the hospital and complaining to my MP and then eventually I got a call from the consultant
1:20:03
I guess, I mean, not to defend them because you're in living hell
1:20:09
in limbo when that stuff is going on, but maybe if it had come back positive
1:20:13
then the system would have kicked in a little bit more effectively so that you'd be told that you need to come in and be seen
1:20:18
I don't know. I'm not making excuses. I've just got a mum in the absolute jaws of the NHS at the moment
1:20:24
and I feel sort of minded to stick up for them, albeit that that experience is unforgivable, absolutely unforgivable
1:20:31
Bob, I mean, out the other end. So two things there, then, the financial impact and the mental impact
1:20:36
because you just hear the word cancer, and it almost sucks everything else out of the room, doesn't it
1:20:42
I think we did a phone-in once about the moment of diagnosis
1:20:47
the moment that you're sitting there with somebody and they tell you. And we may well do that again one day, but not today
1:20:53
because we're doing this conversation. And Bob is one of the reasons why
1:20:59
Those two things there, straight away, didn't know, because it sucked everything else out of the room
1:21:03
Didn't think about what it's going to do to your financials, and you don't think about what it's going to do to your mental health
1:21:08
And how much of that is down to what you're going through and the difficulties of processing it
1:21:12
and how much of it is down to the actual treatment and the impacts that the medication and the therapy can have
1:21:18
the radio and chemotherapy. Jamie's in Wigan. Jamie, what made you pick up the phone
1:21:23
Hi, James. I was just looking to what you were saying about cancers in younger men's lads
1:21:29
I was 32 when I was diagnosed. Oh, boy. So relatively young
1:21:34
Yeah. And I was diagnosed with thyroid cancer. And at the time, to be fair, I didn't even know I had a thyroid
1:21:40
I didn't know what a thyroid was. so I was diagnosed with viral cancer
1:21:44
How did they find it? What made you, did you seek, did you go to the doctors
1:21:48
Yeah, I did. I went to the hospital quite a few times, to be fair. Because you were tired
1:21:52
or because what were the symptoms that you were dealing with? No, I was getting tingling in my fingers and my legs
1:21:58
Okay. And I get in a hot bath, and my legs would be cold
1:22:02
Ooh. But what really started it was, I have swollen lymph nodes in my neck, reactive lymph nodes
1:22:09
And you could feel those? yeah and they're still there to this day you know 14 years on that they're kind of still there now
1:22:14
yeah um but they was kind of scanning those um and they came back clear nothing wrong with those
1:22:21
another time my fibroids wasn checked and i went to the doctors and i kept going to the doctors and doctors and the doctors and the doctor kind of said to me I think you clinically depressed I going to put you on diazepam Okay And at the time I kind of stood up and just said
1:22:35
I'm not depressed. There's something wrong with me. Wow. So I changed doctors, went to a young lady
1:22:42
same date of birth as mine, and she just said to me, has anyone checked your thyroid? And I went, I don't know what a thyroid is
1:22:48
And it kind of went from there, so she referred me. I had a scan. and I remember having the scanning
1:22:54
and he just said to me, your lymph nodes look fine, but I am concerned about what's on your thyroid
1:22:58
I'm going to do a fine needle biopsy. So I kind of knew from there and then
1:23:03
It happened very quick from there. This was on the first day. I was in the hospital on the Tuesday
1:23:08
I was diagnosed on the following Thursday. So it was basically a week it was out
1:23:12
diagnosed and away you go. Flipping, eh? I think for me, James
1:23:17
I think Bob mentioned the mental health aspect. Yes. cancer never leaves you so if i get a sore throat now if i get a tweak in my neck i always go i
1:23:28
wonder if it's back and this is nearly 14 years down the line it never leaves you at all and i
1:23:35
think that's what people struggle with around me you know they see me now 14 years the cancer's
1:23:39
gone it's like oh you're fine i'm not it never ever leaves you it's always zero cancer and it's
1:23:44
difficult it's not a surprise but it must be really tough one thing really well lots of things
1:23:50
interest me but the that little cliche thing i think i said it to bob not you was that because
1:23:55
you're a man you didn't go to the doctors and we've done phone-ins about that back in the day
1:23:59
when we just tried to work out why men in particular because i think somehow it's a sign
1:24:05
of weakness or vulnerability or whatever it may be you you didn't have that at all you knew
1:24:10
something was wrong and you weren't going to take no for an answer from the doctor no and i and i'm
1:24:14
the opposite i'm i'm a believer in if something's wrong the sooner it's diagnosed the better just
1:24:20
For the avoidance of doubt, Jamie, you're obviously right. And all the people on the other side of the argument are idiots
1:24:28
But it's interesting that you're so all in on that, isn't it? Oh, absolutely
1:24:32
And I am to the day, you know, if mum says anything like that, I've got a little cough, I'll be like, OK, mum, can you give it three weeks and I'm going to see the doctor
1:24:38
The doctor I got with at the time was really, really good because I really suffered with mental health after it
1:24:44
Because one, I was misdiagnosed because I was told I was clinically depressed. And then it was fine
1:24:48
So I stopped trusting in health professionals. But I sat down with a very good doctor
1:24:52
Because what I used to do, James, every single day I'd check my body for everything. I'd look at my mouth, I'd look at my skin
1:24:57
The smallest little change on my skin, I'd be like, is this skin cancer? I was obsessed with skin cancer
1:25:03
And on the back of that, I do have health anxiety on the back of it, which I medicated for all the other day
1:25:07
The doctor once sat down with me and said, I want you to get a little diary
1:25:12
And anything that comes on your body, in your mouth, or cough or sore throat, you write it in the diary and the symptoms
1:25:17
and he said instead of checking your body every single day, check it every
1:25:21
second day. Okay. So wean yourself off it really. Wean yourself off the anxiety almost
1:25:27
And he said to me, if the issue's still there in three weeks, then you come and see us
1:25:31
He said, but 99% of the time that issue will have gone because it'll be a cold, it'll be a
1:25:35
common cough, it'll be a... And that's what I do to the day. I wait
1:25:39
for three weeks like a ticking time bomb. If it's still there in three weeks, I'm like, oh god, what could this be
1:25:43
But it never has been. No, it never Well, there you go. Good advice. No
1:25:47
Wow. I mean, I'm glad that you are where you are, but what an experience
1:25:52
And how interesting to hear that's the third thing on my list, is that it never leaves you
1:25:57
So we've got the money, we've got the mental health impact, and in a way, an extension of the mental health impact is it never leaves you
1:26:04
I've got a feeling, had I been through what you've been through, that I would be a bit like you, or maybe a lot like you
1:26:09
and every twinge, every tweak, you'd be thinking potentially the worst, because it happened before
1:26:15
and it was it was the worst. Jamie stay safe. A quick word from Wendy which I think is important
1:26:20
GPs please give GPs a break they see sore throats every day the majority of tonsillitis is viral
1:26:28
and self-limiting so antibiotics would not be appropriate at the first consultation the main
1:26:33
thing is asking the patient to come back if they don't get better common things are common if every
1:26:39
patient was referred at the first consultation the whole system would collapse GPs have to sift
1:26:44
that needle out of the haystack. That's a helpful contribution, Wendy, and I'm very grateful to you for making it
1:26:50
The time now is 11.48. We're going to extend our Simon Marks streak, I think, after this
1:26:56
James O'Brien on LBC. 11.52 is the time. What a happy crew we are
1:27:01
Because that message from Wendy about going a little easier on GPs was, of course, in response to Bob's call from Durham
1:27:07
They had a nightmare experience, three different goes before the GP spotted the problem
1:27:12
But Bob was listening to Wendy's defense of GPs and has just texted to say, good to talk to you
1:27:17
That lady who just texted in defending GPs, fair point. I hadn't considered that
1:27:22
It's becoming an absolute oasis of harmony, this program. I'm sure it won't last
1:27:27
Simon Marks is here. There's not a link. I'll do my best. What have you got for us today
1:27:33
Well, I should ask, begin by asking who Donald Trump is threatening to blow up next
1:27:39
Yes, well, precisely. Two American cities. Both of them happen to be in California, of course, a Democratic stronghold
1:27:46
Donald Trump took to the campaign trail again yesterday. We're now exactly four weeks from Election Day, four weeks before this midterm campaign wraps up
1:27:56
And he went to Nebraska, where once again he was telling voters that the impact of his war on Iran
1:28:04
on America's economy is being overstated in their minds. It is, as he keeps saying, a small price to pay to make sure Iran doesn't get a nuclear weapon
1:28:14
But then he went off on a new trajectory. I want to see a tremendous victory. You want to see a tremendous victory because it verifies all the things we did
1:28:23
And again, remember, with the word, it's just artificial. It's a little bit high
1:28:27
It's a small price to pay for keeping the world safe, keeping our country safe
1:28:31
They can take out a city. Let them take out Los Angeles. Let them take out San Diego
1:28:38
This is a very small price to pay, and it's going to be up with very soon
1:28:44
It's essentially almost over with. So that's Donald Trump fans cheering the suggestion
1:28:48
that the Iranian Revolutionary Guard blow up Los Angeles and San Diego
1:28:53
Yes. The country's not going to recover quickly after he's gone, is it? No, and certainly not
1:28:58
And I think it's really important to underscore that this is not the first time that Donald Trump on the campaign trail
1:29:04
has made threats, not of a military nature, to Democrat strongholds. He indicated several times on the campaign trail
1:29:14
that if Democrats win various gubernatorial seats, because remember there's over 35 of them, I think, up for grabs this time
1:29:22
I love using that word. You can never use it often enough. Gubernatorial seats. That's the keys to the governor's mansion
1:29:29
If Democrats win several of those, he is going not to answer the call
1:29:34
when Democrat governors call him and ask him for federal emergency aid
1:29:38
after perhaps some kind of a major wildfire or a hurricane or whatever it happens to be
1:29:43
But what he was saying last night also, while it infuriated, of course, the Democrats who run California
1:29:50
Gavin Newsom said after sending the National Guard and Marines to occupy California, Donald Trump is now saying
1:29:55
our foreign enemies should take out Los Angeles and San Diego He is deranged and dangerous. That's Governor Gavin Newsom, of course, a Democrat in California
1:30:05
Remember, there are races in California that Republicans are hoping to win, including Steve Hilton
1:30:14
David Cameron's former aide-de-camp, who is running for the keys to the gubernatorial mansion in California
1:30:22
And the notion that Steve Hilton this morning, out there campaigning to try and win as a Republican in that state
1:30:28
is going to have to answer all sorts of questions about why he proudly has Donald Trump's endorsement
1:30:34
after Donald Trump suggested blowing up two cities that could take as many as 10 million lives
1:30:41
in Los Angeles and San Diego combined. Well, it can't be an easy breakfast for Steve Hilton out there in California this morning
1:30:47
It's an incredible hat trick career-wise, isn't it? I mean, right in at the ground floor of austerity, director of strategy for Cameron in 2010
1:30:55
and lasted about two years, famous mostly for walking around Downing Street in his bare feet, I think, and then Fox News
1:31:01
and now a full Trump ticket contender for the gubernatorial... I mean, not going to win it. I mean, that's pretty clear
1:31:09
It's polling around 30%, 34%, I think, in that state, and Xavier Becerra, his Democratic opponent, is clearly going to win
1:31:16
because it is a Democratic stronghold. But nonetheless, the idea that on the campaign trail
1:31:21
you engage in that sort of antic that leaves Republican candidates in California, potentially in, you know
1:31:29
other parts of the country, given other things that he said, having to engage in
1:31:33
clean-up on aisle nine, day after day after day, is just bizarre. Isn't it
1:31:38
What else have you got? Well, he is being accused of quite literally trying to
1:31:43
buy votes. Is this real, this story? Yeah, well, it's worse than it sounds. I mean, first of all, let's take a listen to what
1:31:49
he said in Ohio over the weekend. The Democrats kept money, but we're giving it back to you
1:31:55
They kept millions and millions of dollars. I just sent out nearly one million refund checks for $500 each
1:32:04
including 70,000 to 70,000 families in Ohio. You'll be getting them within the next couple of days
1:32:12
This is money that the Democrats hid because they didn't want to pay it out
1:32:19
They didn't want to pay it out. They got caught. We caught them. You know where we caught them? In our great search for fraud
1:32:25
So this is all to do with his assault on the Affordable Care Act, also known, of course, as Obamacare
1:32:30
Claims he's discovered that all of these people are owed $500. There is, of course, disagreement about whether that is necessarily the case or not
1:32:39
But separately from that, while he's sending out these $500 checks with a personal letter that he signs saying this is because Joe Biden was conning you and fleecing you
1:32:49
They've also announced that they're sending out $90 checks to 20 million pensioners to help offset the costs of health care that they are facing
1:33:00
So suddenly, four weeks from Election Day, millions of Americans are getting checks from Donald Trump
1:33:07
And the entire country, of course, has also been promised that if the Republicans maintain their majorities in the House and Senate, everybody's going to get $5,000 in cash from the president of the United States
1:33:18
I mean, it's like watching a game show. Yeah, it is, isn't it? And, I mean, has anyone cashed these checks
1:33:23
I mean, they're real. The $500 checks and the $90 checks, yeah
1:33:28
you can literally take those to the bank. This is a desperate roll of the dice. Of course, yeah
1:33:33
There's hope. It's all over now. Let's just throw some money at them and hope that they vote
1:33:37
The five grand that he's promising to voters, it's never going to happen
1:33:41
and people are not going to believe that it's going to happen. But these actual checks that roll through the door
1:33:46
yeah, absolutely. Holy moly, he says. introducing the next subject. Precisely. So, Fox News last week
1:33:52
and this is a story... This is incredible. Stop what you're doing. I mean, unless you're driving
1:33:56
but just listen to this. Everything about this is staggering. Fox News
1:34:00
has a presenter on the weekends by the name of Kayleigh McEnany. The name may be
1:34:04
familiar because she was Donald Trump's press secretary during his first term at the
1:34:08
White House. On Saturday, she introduced viewers to an author of a now New York
1:34:14
Times best-selling book, who in October 2021 went into a coma for 18 days after riding an electric skateboard at 30 miles per hour without a helmet
1:34:26
coming off it and suffering head injuries. He's in a coma for 18 days and claims that he spent those 18 days in the company of Jesus Christ
1:34:37
And here is the exchange between Ms. McEnany and the fabulously named Gabe Poirot
1:34:45
Poirot, just like Hercule, Gabe Poirot, about his experience of meeting Jesus. And remember
1:34:52
this is on the nation's number one news channel. 18 days you were in that coma. You had this
1:34:58
experience. You came face to face with your savior and then you woke up. How has your life
1:35:02
been different since that experience? Yeah. Now with every single person I meet
1:35:06
I tell them of the love of Christ and that he did it all for them. And he died and rose again
1:35:12
And also, I love how, you know, all these other testimonies, they didn't meet a female Jesus
1:35:16
They didn't meet a soft or a passive Jesus. Jesus is a man. And especially in America, he's been misrepresented
1:35:23
And especially even, you know, there's so many cultural things that present him as if he's some just tolerant guy
1:35:28
It's not the Jesus I met. He's a lion. But he's not a lion angry against me
1:35:33
He's a lion angry for me. He's a Mustang on my behalf
1:35:37
He did it all for me. And what did he look like when you saw him? Pure fire
1:35:42
He was 5'11", like six feet, yet as tall as eternity. Like an ocean of love, yet his eyes were burning white and red at the same time
1:35:53
And, I mean, talk about testosterone, like a Mustang, I'm telling you
1:35:58
He's the Lion of Judah, and there's a roar within his voice
1:36:02
Got a thing about Mustangs this little bit. And testosterone. And testosterone. And if your eyes are burning red and white, aren't they pink
1:36:08
Yes, but I also don't quite understand how you can be 5'11", but also as tall as eternity
1:36:14
But nonetheless. As you say, a best-selling book. Number three on the New York Times list of advice and how-to books
1:36:23
Number three. Oh, OK. It's right behind Mel Robbins. I mean, how can they be conducting that conversation with us
1:36:32
I mean, he says, remembering the other things that they've done with a straight face on Fox News, including, of course
1:36:37
suggesting that Donald Trump won the election that he lost. So why is this surprising
1:36:42
I mean, I think that that is why it's a moment, this
1:36:46
because the notion that the top-rated channel purveying news to the public decides to spend time
1:36:53
amplifying this story at this moment, you know, at this particular moment
1:36:58
when you really want to get the Christian vote out in the midterm elections, when you want to bring these kind of stories
1:37:05
to the attention of people that may be wondering, do I really want to show up at the polls or not
1:37:09
to it's just an astonishing uh point that underscores again how much of this stuff is
1:37:17
going to be irreparable after the trump administration reaches its end yeah and and also
1:37:24
the question we asked ourselves many times and indeed each other is is what is going to happen when it actually finally starts falling apart where the lies and the nonsense and the moral corruption and the derangement and the depravity become unsustainable
1:37:38
I don't think I had that on my bingo card. Well, they're going to start interviewing people who've been hanging out with Jesus, who's like a Mustang
1:37:45
Testosterone like a Mustang. So this man, Mr. Poirot, Monsieur Poirot, fell asleep for a very long time and dreamt about very muscly men
1:37:57
It seems that that possibly occurred. Amen. James O'Brien on LBC. Six minutes after 12
1:38:04
What would you have to do now, then, if you wanted to get a bit of that sweet, sweet money
1:38:08
If you wanted to sort of hitch a ride on the Fox News far right evangelical Christian money train
1:38:16
well someone's now done Jesus someone's bagged Jesus Gabe Poirot has been hanging out with Jesus
1:38:23
while in a coma what would you have to do you'd have to go in a coma for much longer I reckon if
1:38:27
you did six months in a coma and came back with a new testament you could call it the new new
1:38:35
testament so you wake up you say and you go on Fox News and you say well I've been hanging out
1:38:39
with all of them I don't know about this Gabe Poirot dude the Mustang Mustang Muppet but I was
1:38:45
knocking about with Moses. I was with Abraham and Isaac. They've kind of made the peace with each
1:38:50
other now. I was with Noah. I was with Noah. I was hanging out with Noah. And I spent about three
1:38:55
months with Jesus and the big fella and the big fella. And here is the new Bible. And it is
1:39:04
available for $39.99 in all good bookshops. That would be the ultimate grift, wouldn't it? To come
1:39:11
back claiming that we've got a new Bible. And Matt, that bloke, I didn't pick up on this
1:39:15
with Simon. If you've just tuned in, don't worry, I haven't gone mad. There's been a bloke on Fox News
1:39:19
claiming he's met Jesus. He said Jesus was not tolerant. I mean, at what point in that
1:39:29
interview does, I mean, has it left the room before the interview begins? But listen, I
1:39:35
actually do know my way around the Bible, the New Testament and the Old Testament. But even
1:39:39
if you didn't, even if you didn't really know much about Jesus
1:39:43
I might listen to it again actually I think we probably should even if you didn't know much about Jesus
1:39:49
you know that tolerance Jesus is many things to many people but he's
1:39:55
generally regarded as being quite big on tolerance, there's a clue in the way
1:40:01
that he answered a question they were often trying to trip him up those Pharisees
1:40:05
and I don't even get me started on the Sadducees, but they were often
1:40:09
trying to trip him up by asking him whether he agreed with stuff from the Old Testament. So
1:40:14
there was a question one of them asked him about whether or not he agreed with an eye for an eye
1:40:18
and a tooth for a tooth, the kind of Old Testament vengeance. And Jesus, clever fella, said that no
1:40:26
he believes that you should turn the other cheek. I don't know that there's ever been a more
1:40:31
beautiful encapsulation of tolerance or indeed pacifism than turning the other cheek. But not
1:40:38
for old Gabe Poirot, the Mustang Muppet, because the Jesus he met, he wasn't tolerant at all
1:40:45
Oh, no. He was he was all of these things. 18 days. You were in that coma. You had this experience
1:40:52
You came face to face with your savior and then you woke up. How has your life been different
1:40:56
since that experience? Yeah. Now, with every single person I meet, I tell them of the love
1:41:01
of Christ and that he did it all for them. And he died and rose again. And also, I love how
1:41:06
You know, all these other testimonies, they didn't meet a female Jesus. They didn't meet a soft or a passive Jesus
1:41:12
Jesus is a man. And especially in America, he's been misrepresented. And especially even, you know, there's so many cultural things that present him as if he's some just tolerant guy
1:41:22
It's not the Jesus I met. He's a lion. But he's not a lion angry against me
1:41:27
He's a lion angry for me. He's a Mustang on my behalf
1:41:31
He did it all for me. And what did he look like when you saw him? Pure fire
1:41:35
He was 5'11", like six feet, yet as tall as eternity. Like an ocean of love, yet his eyes were burning white and red at the same time
1:41:46
And, I mean, talk about testosterone, like a Mustang, I'm telling you
1:41:51
He's the Lion of Judah, and there's a roar within his voice
1:41:56
There's been a miracle. There's been an actual miracle in the studio while that was happening
1:42:01
I have received, I think, the stupidest text I have ever received in my entire career
1:42:06
as a radio presenter, as a direct consequence of Gabe Poirot describing the time he met Jesus
1:42:13
whose eyes were glowing red and white at the same time. Now, does that mean that they were going red, white
1:42:19
red, white, red, white, like a kind of ambulance or the Ghostbusters mobile
1:42:25
Or were they pink? Were they just pink? Were they just red and white? What do we think
1:42:29
The first one. So going red, white, red, white, red, white. I mean, OK
1:42:34
But Peter is in Birmingham. Peter has been listening to what you were just listening to
1:42:40
A bloke on the telly claiming he'd met Jesus and that he was a Mustang
1:42:46
which is a horse, I think, rather than the muscle car. But who knows? Certainly muscle seemed to play a big part in his reverie
1:42:54
Good word, that. So Pete in Birmingham has been listening to what you've just listened to
1:42:58
and he got his phone out of his pocket and he used his actual fingers to type the following message
1:43:04
Yes, James, taking the mick out of Jesus and Christianity is so easy
1:43:09
and all the profit you mentioned. I noticed you cautiously avoided Mohammed, peace be upon him
1:43:16
I wonder why that is, says Pete in Birmingham. So, Pete, I'm not going to suggest that your brain has been absolutely boiled to mush
1:43:26
by spending your entire life on the internet. but why when you're describing a bloke chatting nonsense on American television about having met
1:43:35
Jesus while he was in a coma and he has red and white flashing eyes how is that taking the mickey
1:43:41
out of Christianity you irredeemable fruit loop how is that taking the mickey out of Jesus and on
1:43:47
what possible planet would anybody think listen to that bloke on the telly talking about Jesus
1:43:53
why aren't they talking about Muhammad, eh? That's what I want to know
1:43:57
Pete, you are absolutely crackers, mate. I pity the people who live with you, if indeed anyone does
1:44:04
I suspect she left some time ago and probably doesn't let you see the kids either
1:44:08
But there is hope for you. Just keep tuning in to this radio programme
1:44:13
and eventually you will feel the madness that has pushed you to a place
1:44:17
where you got your phone out of your pocket and typed that after listening to what everybody else
1:44:21
has just listened to twice. I think it is a, what might we call it
1:44:27
I think it might, at least I hope it might be a reversible process
1:44:33
On we go. No little grey cells in evidence in your message, Peter
1:44:38
I probably need to explain that to you, don't I? But I'm too busy because we've got to get back to the phone that we were having
1:44:44
namely about the fact that, well, in the absence of being able to meet Jesus
1:44:49
and ask him to cure you, most people have to rely upon the auspices of the National Health Service
1:44:53
if they contract cancer and most people of course are most likely to contract it later in their lives over the age of 60 or so which is why I am so intrigued by the question of what is different when it happens when you young
1:45:08
and it is the under-50s that we're talking about mostly today. Jack's in St Albans. Jack, what would you like to say
1:45:16
I heard what you were talking about. I thought I had to bring in, because I'm..
1:45:21
Have you ever met... You've never met... Just before we crack on, Jack. You've never met Jesus, have you
1:45:27
No, I've not. All right, carry on. So if you're the top, I'm well-versed on that. Yeah, okay. So age 14, I was diagnosed with a brain tumour
1:45:38
And it was an interesting experience because... Flipping, isn't it? Yeah. And the thing that I find is when I was undergoing treatment
1:45:49
and going through that, it's largely the family around you that carried the brunt
1:45:53
Yes, of course. You're going through it and you're being told by the doctors what happens next
1:46:00
I mean, I refused to engage with doctors and anything medical because I didn't want to admit I had cancer because that was scary
1:46:07
So I let my parents and my family talk the medical things over them
1:46:11
and they weren't allowed to do anything in front of me regarding that or talk about that with me because that would make it too real
1:46:17
Wow. I mean, I get that, but it's probably not the ideal scenario
1:46:21
from everybody else's point of view, but whatever gets you through the day was probably their attitude at the time
1:46:27
Yeah, and then you go through, I mean, the NHS are incredibly good at working through it
1:46:38
and you get put on a set of train tracks and you go through this path of treatment
1:46:45
that you go through from step to step to step. So I had brain operations, then radio therapy and monitoring after that
1:46:55
And you are on these rails. And then you get to the point where they say, right, you're cured, we're done that
1:47:03
We'll keep monitoring you, but go back and enjoy life. But you get the issue that the life that you knew has been put in a blender
1:47:10
and you can't put it back together for love and money because your friends at school treat you differently, even though they don't want to
1:47:18
You want to go back and pick up doing everything, but it's just..
1:47:23
It's not the same anymore as the life you had. And it doesn't fade into the background
1:47:31
I mean, it must fade into the background a bit. I mean, you're a couple of years back at school
1:47:35
and it's not the first thing everybody thinks of when you walk into the room
1:47:40
but it's always there with you. You're always a kid who had cancer
1:47:44
Are you? Are you? Yeah, because it's not... And this was a big cancer
1:47:51
I mean, this is months out of school and everybody back at everyone. I left school for treatment in Easter of my year nine year
1:48:00
and got back to September in year 10, so six months off school
1:48:05
It's huge. And I'd been trying treatment. I was playing lots of sport, playing rugby four or five times a week
1:48:12
I couldn't do that anymore. Everything in my life was around the activities I did
1:48:19
and on friendship groups around that, but you have to adjust to a life where you can't do that
1:48:26
And even when you try and involve with people, people just see you differently
1:48:30
because you've got this big asterisk above you. People don't know how to approach anything with you
1:48:38
And how old are you now? I'm 28 now. And how much of this is still true
1:48:45
So through working with some fantastic charities and working with them, I can now say it's one of the best things that have happened to me
1:48:57
What do you mean? What do you mean when you say that? So through being diagnosed, I suddenly, after treatment, I learned to take
1:49:06
I was just sort of bumming along and not focusing on what I was doing
1:49:12
I learned to really apply myself in school afterwards because I actually realised that school was fun and I enjoyed doing it
1:49:20
I learned what actually mattered in life. So to work with some of the charities I worked with
1:49:26
I learned what was actually really important. And I had, years later, I had some bad times
1:49:32
where I had to go and speak to people and sort a few things out in my head. But since doing that, I now spend my summer working with some of the charities
1:49:40
to help other young people going through that time to show them that actually there is a bright side at the end of it
1:49:48
and you can believe in a bright future. That's a beautiful thing
1:49:53
Are we talking, I don't want to be crass, mate, but are we talking about a kind of recognition
1:49:58
of the preciousness of life that most of us probably miss because we blithely push ahead without..
1:50:05
But that thing of in early jobs and in school, it would be slightly irritating to go
1:50:13
well, this is really important for you to get top grades on this, or it's really important for you to push this next level in work
1:50:19
And you turn around and go, that's not actually important. Now, what's important is being sounded by the right people doing the right thing
1:50:25
The stuff that matters most. Yeah. Of course. And that's the thing that entirely through meeting the right people
1:50:34
I learned to see how it could positively impact my life and how I can now use it to positively impact others
1:50:40
who are in the same situation. Ah, good man. I get that. You're making perfect sense to me, actually
1:50:46
And, I mean, I don't know that I can quite get my head around you
1:50:50
saying it's the best thing that ever happened to you, but I've got a clear grasp of why you think it had positives
1:50:56
as well as negatives, and that has got to be one of the most important lessons
1:51:00
any of us can learn. You can become president of the United States of America, Jack, without ever having learned the lesson of what actually matters in life and what's actually valuable
1:51:09
But to stare down the barrel of having it taken away from you at such a young age, it will
1:51:15
And as you say, if you're lucky enough to have the right support and the right counselling, it will help you appreciate what matters
1:51:22
You've taken my breath away, Jack. Thank you, mate. Stay safe. It's 12.19
1:51:27
James O'Brien on LBC. 22 minutes. after 12. That was lovely from Jack
1:51:34
and an awful lot of people thought so in fact more than one person
1:51:37
pointing out the way that we moved effortlessly from the ridiculousness of the weirdo on Fox News
1:51:44
who claims he's been hanging out with Jesus right through to the quiet beauty
1:51:48
of Jack's contribution about how cancer at a very young age as a teenage boy brought him to
1:51:53
a much greater appreciation of what matters and doesn't matter in life. A lesson that many
1:51:58
of us never ever learn. um adventures in my inbox chapter 304 i i this is now one that i i do get drawn to um sorry i'm on
1:52:09
catch up and forgot was the message so i always then think i wonder where they are what they what
1:52:14
have they done why are they apologizing and also i'm touched that you think i've got time to respond
1:52:18
and explore every single one of these messages which i don't but i spotted this one and it it
1:52:24
It came a minute after you sent the figure 10 to this So I think what happened here is you voted in yesterday Burnham Optimism Barometer You listening on catch to yesterday show
1:52:36
and you voted, which is great, and then you've realised that you're listening
1:52:40
to yesterday's catch-up, so it's gone. And the only other text you've ever sent
1:52:45
to the programme before, how did we go from James O'Brien to this ghoul
1:52:52
Hurry home, James, this is excruciating. And that was sent on the 9th of July, 2026
1:52:59
which means it was smack in the middle of my holiday, which means that you are referring to somebody
1:53:04
who did my holiday cover, which means it's probably Dishonest Bob, doesn't it
1:53:09
I think, I can't remember. Suella didn't have a go this time, did she? It's got to be Dishonest Bob, I imagine
1:53:15
You can check. I'm sure it'll be on the record. 23 after 12 is the time. Back to the horrors, if you like
1:53:21
of unexpectedly young people being diagnosed. And by that I mean under 50, just because Jack was 14
1:53:29
This is more about people who are older than that, but considerably younger than the age at which we might expect this sort of diagnosis
1:53:36
And I've got a little look at one of the charities that Jack mentioned
1:53:40
is the Ellen MacArthur Cancer Trust. That's one of the charities that has helped him out
1:53:45
So if you want to have a look at their work, you just go to ellenmcarthancertrust.org
1:53:51
you can even donate. Caroline is in Shardlow in Derbyshire. Caroline what would you like to say
1:53:56
Oh yes, hi James. I just wanted to say that I was diagnosed with breast cancer when I was 45
1:54:02
so for me that was a bit of a shock and I know that the statistics are quite high but it was one of them when
1:54:11
you think it will never happen to you, which is probably naive in my sense
1:54:15
but I suppose you just get on with your life, don't you? And don't think things like that are going to happen
1:54:20
Did you find a lump? Yes, yes, I did. So I found a lump and I rang the doctors
1:54:27
and then the doctors got me in straight away, saw a nurse and she fell and said
1:54:33
oh, yes, I can feel a lump there. So she said, I'll refer you. But she said, try not to worry about it
1:54:39
You know, it might not be anything. Just wait for your referral. Easier said than done
1:54:43
or could you put it out of your mind? No, I tried to talk about it every day
1:54:49
No, and I probably did the worst thing that you could when they said, don't Google anything. And what did I do
1:54:53
I just kind of like Googled it and, you know, all kinds of things I was thinking
1:54:57
But I tried not to think about it, but it is difficult when you find a lump
1:55:02
and, you know, you're being referred. So it couldn't come quick enough to be really
1:55:06
the referral date. So on my referral date, it came round within about two weeks
1:55:12
so that was good, which is what they normally say within two weeks
1:55:16
Went to the breast clinic, had my mammogram, and then the mammogram chap who did that said
1:55:23
no, it all looks fine, we can't see anything. So for me, I was thinking, oh, good
1:55:28
Obviously, it's like maybe a false alarm. But then I went next door to the radiologist
1:55:33
and then they did an ultrasound, and then he said to me, I found two lumps, and you're going to need some treatment
1:55:41
So I think that was when it hit me because I thought, oh, I only found one
1:55:45
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's scary. What's wrong? It's scary. I've got two lungs now
1:55:50
So I've gone from kind of like finding one lung to being told that I've got two lungs
1:55:55
So normally afterwards, they normally put you just back in the waiting room
1:56:00
but I knew something was wrong because they said, we'll send you next door, and they put me in a room on my own
1:56:05
Oh, boy. And then they had a breast cancer next to the other with you and then kind of like shut the door
1:56:09
so I was like sat there absolutely devastated, broke down you know, crying my eyes out
1:56:14
On your own as well? Yes, I was on my own because then at this point
1:56:18
your partners aren't allowed in with you they're only allowed to come in with you
1:56:22
when you go see the consultant when I did go to see the consultant
1:56:27
my partner, he was called by breast cancer nurse to come so at this point he didn't know what was going on
1:56:34
so he got called and nobody held that so from his point of view
1:56:38
he was like really, really panicking as well. And then when we went and see the breast consultant
1:56:43
it was really scary because he said that, you know, he was worried about what he'd seen
1:56:47
and he told us to prepare for the worst. And so he said, you're going to need a biopsy
1:56:53
So we was kind of like trying to process all that. And then I had to have the biopsy
1:56:58
and then they said, oh, it'll get sent away. And then, you know, I think it's about two weeks time
1:57:02
you get the results. But for me, them two weeks was agonising
1:57:07
and waiting for the results because I had everything going through my head. Of course you did
1:57:12
And because we kind of like, we knew something that, I knew I had to prepare for something and I kind of like
1:57:19
we had to go and tell my family, but I didn't really know what I was telling them. I just kind of like had to say, I think I've got breast cancer
1:57:25
but I can't confirm anything until my results, but it looks like it is. So we, but I kind of like, the way I persisted it was
1:57:33
I just prepared for the worst in my head. Oh, okay. So, I mean, so you're kind of ready if it's terrible
1:57:40
And if it's less than terrible, you might just feel a bit relieved. Yes, yes
1:57:45
So in my head, I'd already said, right, this is the worst case scenario. This is what can happen
1:57:50
So when we actually went and got the result and when they said it was, I think it was like grade two and it wasn't like an emergency
1:57:59
I mean, it's not really, what's the word when it's aggressive. It's not really aggressive
1:58:05
So for me, that was quite a relief. So even though I'd kind of like got a cancer diagnosis
1:58:11
I actually felt relief because it wasn't maybe as worse as I thought it was going to be
1:58:16
And they actually said to me, it's treatable and potentially curable. So for me, it was like a good outcome
1:58:24
So for me, it felt like I'd been, well, not given a second chance
1:58:31
but it wasn't maybe as worse as I thought. Well, it would be a bit like, yeah, well, maybe a bit like being given a second chance
1:58:35
I suppose it depends how successfully you've prepared for the worst, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, of course
1:58:40
If you'd absolutely persuaded yourself that it was going to be goodnight, Vienna, then it would feel like you'd been given a reprieve or a second chance
1:58:47
What do you wish you'd known looking back when you went into this? What do you wish you'd known
1:58:51
Well, I think the more I've... Because I looked quite extensively into, you know, breast cancer
1:58:58
I looked at, like, loads of studies, loads of papers, loads of research. I did quite a lot of work online just looking at things
1:59:04
And for me, I was surprised actually how treatable breast cancer could be if you can catch it in the early stages
1:59:13
And that there is quite a lot that can do. So that gave me, it made me feel quite positive that if anyone else was going to have a diagnosis
1:59:23
that there is quite a lot that can do for breast cancer. So I think I probably wouldn't be as scared next time
1:59:30
I'm not saying like next time, because I don't want to do next time
1:59:34
No, but I understand what you mean. And that's something everyone would benefit from knowing
1:59:38
And also the importance of getting checked, getting tested, and going to the doctors at the first opportunity
1:59:44
if you find anything that you think might be amiss. Yes, yes, because the earlier, I know they always say it
1:59:50
but the earlier they can catch it, you know, the better the outcome is
1:59:54
and the more they can actually do. So I know it might seem scary if you've got like a lung, but in my
1:59:59
experience and go in and know what they could do and learn how treatable it actually was kind of
2:00:05
like gave me her applause yeah i like that no i think because this is i mean it's another one of
2:00:11
those subjects about which you know nothing until you need to know everything and actually people
2:00:15
who've been down that road can help people who haven't be better equipped knowledge after all
2:00:19
is power um which is why all of the calls today have served um two purposes one to inform and and
2:00:27
to prepare people who might go through something similar. 12.31 is the time. Caroline, thank you
2:00:33
James O'Brien on LBC. It is 12.34. Again, having fun in the inbox, but this is really poignant
2:00:42
This really moved me. And this person, Sophie is her name, has never sent a message to LBC before
2:00:48
which is probably why the message opens in the way that it does. Hello, she writes, I can't believe what just happened
2:00:54
I just turned the radio on, and the young guy who had brain cancer was saying how much cancer changes your perspective on life
2:01:01
Right now, we are waiting for results for my dad, who has advanced prostate cancer
2:01:06
We've been on this journey for two and a half years, and the one thing it has done for all of us is show us what is important
2:01:13
I'm taking this, as in tuning in while Jack was talking, as a good omen for us today
2:01:19
Everything crossed for you, Sophie, and indeed for your dad, Mike. It's just one of those weird little moments where the radio reaches parts that other media cannot reach
2:01:29
As promised, I turn your attention next to the school protests in France
2:01:33
I shall resist the urge to overplay my favourite pun of all time about revolting students
2:01:38
and focus instead upon Lisa Louis, a freelance reporter who is in the République area of Paris
2:01:45
where many of these protests have taken place or indeed are due to take place again later today
2:01:50
But to begin, Lisa, they're up and down. They're across the entire country
2:01:56
Well, absolutely. Today is a day of nationwide protests and demonstrations. The students from secondary schools will be marching together with teachers
2:02:06
and also with university students. Now, these protests started about two weeks back, you know
2:02:12
at a number of schools in Saint-Saint-Denis, which is the poorest department in France
2:02:18
a number of secondary schools. These pupils were took to the barricades because they were complaining about the conditions at their school
2:02:26
They are saying, you know, there's not enough money. Our buildings are really run down
2:02:31
There were pictures online of places where the ceiling is coming down, the water is dripping to the floor
2:02:38
There are rats in the building. And also there's a problem with teachers, replacement teachers sometimes takes months or even a year to find someone who replaces another teacher who's gone on leave or who is ill
2:02:50
So they are saying these pupils I've been talking to over the past week or so have been telling me that, you know, this is not how we can get educated in a proper way
2:02:59
And we need to have access to proper education to become educated adults. and and it and it snowballed i mean other other schools followed and then undergraduates university
2:03:08
students joined in and crucially i suppose for people who might chalk it up as um you know young
2:03:14
people being young people the teachers have joined in as well well absolutely it snowballed from this
2:03:19
one department the destitute area to other departments across france to other schools
2:03:25
that were facing the same problems but also schools that weren't facing these problems and
2:03:30
And then the students there took to the barricades to show solidarity with the students who don't have access to all the proper resources
2:03:37
And today, as you just mentioned, you know, at that protest, there will be teachers and there will be university students joining the marches here in Paris, but also in other cities across France
2:03:49
And the big question is obviously what's going to happen today and in the coming days
2:03:54
Will there be wider protests? Will other universities, other middle schools as well, maybe
2:04:02
join the protests and really gain more traction? Marseille, Nice, Nantes, Lyon, Paris, I think, all are expected to see
2:04:09
in fact, some of them underway already, and attacks on street furniture and indeed the police
2:04:18
It's a political problem for Emmanuel Macron. I mean, is he on the hook for it
2:04:23
Are the protesters holding him responsible for what's going on in schools
2:04:28
or is it more sophisticated than that? No, I think that's really part of the problem
2:04:33
Emmanuel Macron has been in power for almost 10 years now. He will have to leave in April, May
2:04:39
when there will be general elections here in France. But right now, he's really being targeted as the main problem
2:04:47
And the students are saying, you know, we need money to employ additional teachers
2:04:52
And yet France's budget, France's finances are in dire strait. The country is now trying to put together a budget for next year, for 2027
2:05:02
But it has a huge public deficit and a huge public debt
2:05:06
Public debt is at about 117% of GDP right now. That is huge
2:05:12
And the country needs to find tens of billions of euros to bring down that public deficit, really
2:05:17
So it's really difficult for the government to come up with, you know, with measures, concrete measures that will calm down the anger of these student protests
2:05:28
There was a meeting last week between the education minister and several representatives of the students that are protesting
2:05:36
And the government also over the weekend, they came forward saying, you know, we're going to address these issues
2:05:42
We will look into how to hire new teachers, how to refurbish the buildings also to make them fit for climate change
2:05:49
And there were several heat waves this summer here in France and the students have been complaining about that
2:05:53
But will they find the money? That's really the big question here. I mean, staying in the political arena, Mélenchon, Jean-Luc Mélenchon
2:06:04
has certainly in the coverage here has been cited as one of the instigators of the activity
2:06:10
Is that fair? Well, I don't know if you can call him the instigator
2:06:14
One of. Well, his party is certainly trying to piggyback the movement
2:06:20
They've been publishing photos and videos of themselves with the student protesters
2:06:25
But I've actually put that to some of the pupils that are demonstrating right now
2:06:29
They are protesting. And they're saying, well, they are supporting us. But it's not because the party told us to protest that we took to the barricades
2:06:36
But they're certainly trying to benefit from this movement, also appeal to first time voters for next year's presidential elections
2:06:45
Yes. So it's an organic movement that politicians are just going to be politicians and try and see it as an opportunity
2:06:52
And of course, there have been some fairly grim scenes. One young man had his hand blown off, I think, after picking up a smoke grenade yesterday
2:06:59
Policing in France is very different from policing in this country. So the clashes later could escalate
2:07:04
um i i i wonder if you could just tell me what if you've got a handle on what the broader public
2:07:10
opinion is because it it's impossible to speak about an entire population's feelings but is
2:07:17
there a genuine or general sense of support for the students or are their parents and grandparents
2:07:23
generation um running out of patience well you know it just so happens that here in france there a lot of polls being done regularly And there one poll that was done one week ago about you know
2:07:36
especially that particular protest movement. And it turns out that two thirds of the French support the students
2:07:42
in general here in France. Often when there are strikes, when there are protests
2:07:46
a lot of people say we need to show solidarity, especially with such a you know with students who are fighting for more means for such an important
2:07:55
sector the education sector that everybody thinks or many people here think more money should be
2:08:01
invested in um that's extraordinary isn't it so even harder then against that backdrop to know
2:08:06
how things are going to are going to settle how this stops well absolutely you know that's the
2:08:13
big question is this movement going to continue will there be more more blockades will the
2:08:19
government be able to calm them down or to control the movement? And you mentioned the
2:08:23
violent clashes. Obviously, there are now riot police that are being deployed to make sure that
2:08:30
different situations are under control. But we have seen very violent clashes with dozens of
2:08:37
students injured during these protests. And there is a risk that this could gain even more ground
2:08:45
and maybe also spread to other sectors. That's at least what some here are fearing
2:08:49
Lisa, thank you. That was a fantastically comprehensive dispatch, and I'm very grateful to you
2:08:54
I wonder whether we'll talk again. It seems likely, given that the..
2:08:58
Well, it's hard at the moment to envisage the scenario in which this would end
2:09:02
That's Lisa Louis, a freelance reporter in Paris, in the République area
2:09:07
Oh, I don't know why I do that. I've got to be honest with you. It's just a bit performative
2:09:11
I could have said Republic area, Republic, But I have to go like flipping René off the République, the République area of Paris, where the protests are due to take place later today
2:09:22
Already underway, I think, in Lyon and elsewhere. But now the riot police get deployed and potentially things get much hairier
2:09:29
Speaking of Harry, this is a reference to the scenario in which she finds herself
2:09:34
I don't know if you heard that in the news. But so I suggested to you earlier, if they clip this up later, I need to hold it like this
2:09:41
So I suggested to you earlier that the only reason that Kemi Bader not had talked about a dome because it's iron was so that the son or the male could say iron dome lady and allow her sort of Thatcher fetish to
2:09:55
Well, I mean, she, of course, doesn't have a Thatcher fetish because last week she was attacking Andy Burnham or a couple of weeks ago when he gave his first speech in parliament as prime minister
2:10:04
Baden-Ock attacked him for talking about Thatcher and suggested that, you know, that those days are
2:10:08
long behind us. And she wasn't even around when Margaret Thatcher was prime minister. But she's
2:10:14
changed her tune. She now desperately desperately wants everybody to think that she is Margaret
2:10:17
Thatcher. So that's where the Iron Dome claim came from. Unfortunately for the lady that never
2:10:26
makes any gaffes, she's now claiming that she never ever compared the air defence system that
2:10:32
she is proposing but couldn't describe to Nick Ferrari earlier today to Israel's Iron Dome
2:10:38
She's adamant. That was never the intent. No, absolutely not. Don't be ridiculous
2:10:42
Unfortunately, if you were to get hold of the press release in which the announcement of the
2:10:49
defence system that is nothing like the Iron Dome was announced, you would see that they used the
2:10:55
phrase Iron Dome. And if you were to read the newspaper article which she used and indeed wrote
2:11:03
in order to announce the new air defence system that she was unable to describe earlier today to
2:11:10
Nick Ferrari but is definitely not being compared by anyone to Israel's Iron Dome, she in her
2:11:17
newspaper article compared it to the Iron Dome. So be careful what you wish for. She wrote for the
2:11:26
Sun. Iron Dome lady. And she wrote in the Sun, modelled on Israel's Iron Dome, Britannia Shield
2:11:35
will invest 10 billion pounds over 10 years in the radar missiles and technology needed to detect
2:11:40
these threats and stop them before they reach British soil. In the next news bulletin at 12
2:11:45
at one o'clock, you will probably hear it being reported that Kemi Badenok has denied that she compared
2:11:51
a new air defences system to Israel's Iron Dome despite having a byline on an article that reads
2:11:58
modelled on Israel's Iron Dome. I've got to write a column about this in 15 minutes' time
2:12:07
and so I cannot express how grateful I am to Mrs. Badenok for providing me with so much material
2:12:15
James O'Brien on LBC. 12.49 is the time. Joseph Draper, one of LBC's finest, had a cracking story in August of this year
2:12:27
about a British bloke killed by drone in Ukraine while fighting for Putin's Russia
2:12:35
And it is to similar territory, Joseph, that you return today. Yeah, absolutely. That was Yorkshire fisherman Bradley Townsend
2:12:42
He was 33 years old when he died, as you say, in Ukraine earlier this year in June
2:12:48
He was killed reportedly by an FPV drone, a remote controlled Ukrainian drone
2:12:55
And he became the first person, first British person confirmed to have died fighting in this invasion for Putin
2:13:03
Just weeks earlier, he travelled to Moscow and signed up with no military experience
2:13:09
and for those who knew him, James, he was described as an ordinary man, really, even a good man
2:13:14
but someone who had struggled with mental ill health throughout his life
2:13:17
and who would eventually become the victim of online grooming and brainwashing, really
2:13:24
That's how it's been described by some of those who knew him back in his hometown
2:13:30
Now, since then, we've tracked down his main point of contact in Moscow
2:13:36
a man called Ben Stimson, a former antiques dealer from Oldham, who's also served in the Russian army
2:13:43
And this is Bradley talking to Ben Stimson in Russia in April, just days before signing up
2:13:49
Well, I came with the idea that I probably won't be able to go out and definitely get persecuted if I went back
2:13:54
Yeah, well, it is worrying. I'm not here for a suicide mission, but I understand that's what can happen
2:14:00
I'll shake your hand as well, Brad. It's good to have another northerner here, finally. God bless you
2:14:06
And that was Ben Stimson talking there at the end of that clip, shaking his hand, appearing to congratulate him
2:14:13
Also in that video, he can be heard in Russian saying, well done
2:14:18
And Ukrainian officials believe Stimson essentially recruits fighters for Russia from Britain, Australia, also the United States
2:14:26
And he's reportedly previously admitted helping 10 other foreign fighters join the war
2:14:31
And he admitted to us that Bradley had been following his content online for years and that Simpson even let him stay at his flat and introduce him to other foreign fighters in Moscow before he went to the front
2:14:43
But when I asked whether he felt any responsibility at all for Bradley's death, this is what he told me
2:14:48
Do I feel a responsibility? I can't make up someone's mind for them
2:14:52
I can say this I can show them the reality of what they doing And I did say to him wouldn you be better supporting us on the streets of Britain But he had followed your content You don see how that may have
2:15:05
People are following your content. People are following your content. Ben, I'm just asking if you feel like you have any responsibility for his death, that's all
2:15:12
No, I didn't kill him. The Ukrainians shot him. And this wasn't..
2:15:16
When he says us, Joseph, he's supporting us on the streets of Britain. Do we know what exactly he means by us
2:15:22
Well, he claims that there are lots of people who support Russia here. So it just means supporting Russia
2:15:27
Essentially, yeah. The illegal invasion of Ukraine. Exactly, yeah. The illegal invasion of Ukraine, which he says has a lot of support here in the UK
2:15:37
He says that British people who reach out to him, he encourages to take part in anti-NATO and pro-Russian activity here at home
2:15:46
But this isn't his first time in Russia. He firstly actually went to Russia in 2015
2:15:54
He then joined Russian-backed separatists in Ukraine's Donbass region. And then he returned to the UK and he was actually prosecuted under terrorism legislation
2:16:04
And he served around seven years in prison. He then tried to set up, he told me, his antiques business back in Oldham after being released
2:16:12
That appears to have failed. and by his own account he was then forced back to Russia
2:16:17
where in 2024 he signed a professional military contract and trained other foreign recruits
2:16:24
preparing them essentially for the front line, for the meat grinder which we've been seeing in Ukraine
2:16:30
But I put to him the claims that he's a traitor to his country and this is what he said
2:16:35
The British tabloid media has described me as such. That's it. So how am I a traitor
2:16:40
I wish you in Britain all the best. back on. I live in Lostome now. I'm still a British citizen as far as I know. If the government
2:16:49
think I'm a traitor, I'm quite welcome to take my citizenship. I don't plan on returning any time
2:16:54
And perhaps the most concerning part of this story, James, is that he is not the only fighter
2:17:00
He told us he knew of around 15 others who joined Putin's invasion of Ukraine, but that there could
2:17:08
be many more. I've since put that figure to Ukrainian officials. They've told me there could
2:17:12
be dozens, certainly far more than the small number of people who've already been identified
2:17:19
Now, we put all of that to the Foreign Office. They couldn't confirm the exact figure. They
2:17:23
said they don't track the number of British people who travel to Russia. But they did
2:17:28
say anyone who does fight for Russia could face prosecution if they ever return here
2:17:33
to the UK. That would be the clincher, wouldn't it, would be returning here to the UK. Do we know anything
2:17:38
about the grooming or the recruitment process? I mean, because watching content is one thing
2:17:43
but ending up concluding that the illegal invading force is... Well, I suppose we have politicians in this country
2:17:50
who have talked about poking the Russian bear or Putin, feeling provoked by NATO, not technically treachery itself
2:17:58
but about setting the tone of a conversation. Do we know how someone like Bradley ends up
2:18:03
falling under the spell of someone like Stimson? Yeah, well, I mean, in this context, you know
2:18:07
Ben Stimson can insist as much as he likes that he didn't groom him, that he didn't actually encourage him to fight
2:18:14
But certainly he acknowledged that Bradley had been following his content on social media for several years, had been engaging with Ben Stimson
2:18:25
having these conversations, whether it be about NATO, as they see it, intervention in other countries
2:18:31
Very quickly, you can see how that turns into kind of pro-Russian sentiment
2:18:36
But certainly the relationship between these two men had been going on for several years before Bradley made that jump to Moscow
2:18:43
And Ben Stimson knew that Bradley was on his way to Moscow. He joined. He met him there. He let him stay at his flat
2:18:49
He introduced him to other foreign fighters. And I don't think Ben Stimson was under any illusions about what Bradley was intending to do next
2:18:57
And I mean, you've used the phrase meat grinder, which is a description of what happens to frontline troops fighting for Putin
2:19:03
I mean, there's not much prospect of any Brit that signs up for this is essentially offering to become cannon fodder
2:19:13
Certainly, especially if you have no military skills and you don't speak Russian
2:19:17
This is something that Ben Stimson himself acknowledged. He basically said that Bradley never had very good chances going into that situation
2:19:26
I know that Tom Tugendhat described Bradley's action as an incredibly stupid thing to do
2:19:33
I think he's probably a bit more nuanced than that, isn't it, in that he's been very clearly led into this kind of scenario
2:19:40
Have you spoken to his family at all? We've tried reaching out to his family
2:19:44
We respect their privacy, understandably. Because he told friends he was going to Romania originally, I think
2:19:50
and the next thing they know is that he's in Moscow, and the next thing they know, he's in a war zone
2:19:56
Ill-equipped and unqualified. Yeah, I mean, it's possible as well that the next time they heard from Bradley
2:20:02
was in that video I played you, the first clip I played you
2:20:06
when he's talking to Ben Stimson and another pro-Russian-British fighter, Aidan Minnis, in that video
2:20:13
He goes on to say that he wasn't led into anything and he was there to defend Russian separatists and Russian speakers in Ukraine
2:20:23
But certainly the relationship between him and these men went on, well, it started long before he ended up in Moscow
2:20:32
And there are questions really about someone who was described as an ordinary man ended up dying on the battlefield in Ukraine
2:20:39
It's an incredible piece of journalism and an unpleasant and surprisingly poignant story
2:20:46
And this Stimson character doesn't really make much effort to disguise his motivations
2:20:52
describing Andy Burnham's visit to Ukraine as being a great time for the Russians to use their Oresnik, the hypersonic missile
2:21:02
while Burnham was in Kiev, calling him Burnham, and then sharing AI-generated images of troops
2:21:10
quote, liberating, end quotes, London, under the caption, Liberation Day 2027. And it's interesting, isn't it
2:21:17
Because very quickly people can go from a position of being opposed to NATO, perhaps
2:21:22
to having those views which are very much blatantly pro-Russian. And it's interesting that you describe those pictures there
2:21:30
and then you listen to the words of Ben Stimpton himself claiming he wishes all the best for the British people
2:21:36
Clearly those two visions are at odds. You can read Joseph's report, Joseph Draper's full report
2:21:41
and indeed the original report of Bradley's death on the LBC website, lbc.co.uk and indeed on the LBC app
2:21:48
In fact, if you missed any of today's show, you can listen back on our free Global Player app
2:21:52
or the LBC app where you can stay up to date with all the latest news, videos and opinion
2:21:56
You can listen to a range of podcasts including James O'Brien Daily, best bits from this show
2:22:00
if they can find any, every day. So do download the official LBC. I think you'll make the cut, Joseph
2:22:05
They'll find some best bits today. Download the official LBC app for free from your app store now
2:22:10
Coming up at four on LBC, it's Tom Swarbrick. Now it's time for Sheila Fogarty. Thank you very much, James
2:22:15
James O'Brien on LBC. Thank you
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