This is the thing that absolutely changes your life | James O’Brien - The Whole Show

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It is three minutes after ten and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
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How do you process the fact, or the possibility I think, not the fact
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that something you really care about doesn't matter anymore? Is there anything like that? Just have a little think
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Something that when you were a younger person or perhaps relatively recently
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you thought it was of paramount importance, and now you're just not sure it matters anymore
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Or, a slightly different version of the same phenomenon, you realise that your beliefs in something
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or your beliefs about something, more perhaps than mere opinions, but your beliefs about something
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are built upon flimsy foundations, are built upon things, to be fairer
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that perhaps no longer apply. So you have to actually review your beliefs
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You can't believe in something based upon a fact that is no longer true
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I don't know whether I've ever really believed in anything more when it comes to things like education and sociology
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I don't know that I've ever believed in anything more than the benefit of a university education for people who aren't like me
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And I probably need to qualify that a little bit. So growing up, unlike both of my parents
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it was pretty much a given that I would go to university
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And I started university in 1991, which meant that I came out with a little bit of debt
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but a tiny fraction of what I would come out with today. And the reason I'm using myself briefly as a lens through which to look at this story
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is because that's about class. Such a difficult word to define and yet so easy to use
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Class, isn't it? There's another story in the news today which we may well move on to in the next hour
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telling us that the children of white working class families are the most likely to play truant from school
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We may look at the whys and the wherefores and indeed the withers of that a little later
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But class and education. The reason I sort of spoke quite pompously a moment ago
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about it being one of the absolute guiding lights of my own personal ideology, if you like
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or my own personal politics, is that the thing that breaks you out of the moulds that you were born into is education
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It is the thing that absolutely changes your life. One of the weirdest things about growing up, having had an education like mine
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is when you start spending time with people who are just as clever as you are, but didn't have an education like yours
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And you realise the doors that weren't just shut to them, but which they never knew existed
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It's not even that they could see the door and rattle the handle and not get through it. They never knew. People never knew these doors existed
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And I don't mean exclusively career-based opportunities. I mean everything else. So the idea of extending a university education to people who came from backgrounds that would never really have considered it to be a possibility struck me in 1997 when the Labour government turned it into a major priority as an absolutely beautiful thing
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And if it didn't involve the epic amounts of debt that it involves today, it categorically still would
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and therein lies the problem that's why i talk about wondering whether it's time to change your
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beliefs because a university education in 2026 is almost incomparable to a university education
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beginning in 1991 like mine did the the relationship between cost and expectation
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fulfillment and experience is, I mean, it's chasmic a word, Keith. Like C-H-A-S-M-I-C
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chasmic? I mean, Keith says yes, so that's a word. It is now. When's the dictionary
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been published, mate? In time for Christmas? Stick it on the website. Still working on it
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Well done. What are you up to? Odd, Valk. Chasmic is a new word
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I mean, it's enormous, that gulf, and it's odd, because until a few
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years ago, thanks to you, as always, when it comes to me changing my mind or realizing that my
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positions may be built on slightly flimsy or very flimsy foundations, it's almost always down to you
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or therapy, but usually you, I would approach conversations about university education
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from the perspective of my own experience. You know, inevitably, I always like to think I'm not
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like one of those ludicrous newspaper colonists whose opinions are based entirely upon their experiences in the 1970s
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But I obviously am susceptible to the phenomenon in the way that anybody would be
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because where did you frame your opinion about X? Well, I framed it when I first encountered it
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No, X, you can't even say X anymore, can you? Because of that ridiculous man
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When did you frame your opinion about Z? Or B? When did you frame your opinion about that thing over there
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Well, when I first encountered it. Or at least in the early days of my knowledge of it
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When did you frame your opinion about Keith? Well, when I first met him. Or at least in the early days
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What if Keith changed? What if he's converted to, I don't know, Zoroastrianism
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What if he's become a vegetarian? What if he's completely changed his view
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Would you still have the same opinion about him today that you had when you first met him or you first got to know him
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So when things change, your opinion of them should change as well, right
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That's not quite the same as saying, there's no point having a mind if you never change it
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But there's not much point paying attention to things if the things that you're paying attention to
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don't in some way prompt you to have a slightly different approach to things
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Turns out it is a word. Well played, Keith. Nine minutes after ten is the time
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And I hate this story for a whole bunch of reasons. Not least because I can tell you for a fact
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that none of the people punting it as a reason why your kids shouldn't go to university will be
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telling their own kids not to go to university. That's where class kicks in. I remember interviewing
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Joe Johnson, the younger brother of him, and he was announcing some sort of university line. He was
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a good education minister, but back in the days when being a conservative didn't involve being a
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complete crackpot, he was a good education minister, widely respected in the sector, and it wasn't a
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bad policy necessarily to sort of introduce a technically degree level qualification that
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didn't have degree level academia i think it was tied to practical experience or something like that
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so it was you know a training program that was equivalent to a degree but not a degree because
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it involved more hands-on experience than lecture hall or classroom based and i remember saying to
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him would you encourage your own children to do this and he looked at me as if i had food falling out of my mouth It was of course I I hadn actually crossed his mind that children like his or I suppose children like mine would go on that kind of thing And that silly as well because you
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know, if you're middle class, you may hate exams, you may be rubbish at exams, you may benefit
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enormously from a different kind of training. But the way I was raised, the way this country worked
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when I was of that age, when I was contemplating what I would do after leaving school
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somebody from my background and my class, not just privately educated people
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but anybody middle class or thereabouts, would automatically presume that they were going to university
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It was just a given. I struggle, apart from the people who went to drama school or art school
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I struggle to think of anybody that I knew in my teens from my own background that didn't go to university
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I genuinely struggle. It's partly a mark of how cosseted my own circles are
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but it's also a mark of how the relationship worked between tertiary education and class
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Class. Socioeconomic class. Another reason why I hate this story today on the front page of the Daily Mail
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is not just the fact that the people who are being told not to go to university will not be the children of the people asking the question
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but it's come from one of those lobby groups strokes think tanks stroke educational charities
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that is secretly funded and dedicated usually to doing the bidding of the donors
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whose identity they largely won't disclose in this case the policy exchange
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founded I think by people like Michael Gove and Archie Norman and Nick Bowles
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and sundry other sort of Tories who also go back to the days
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when being a Conservative didn't necessitate being a crackpot, although I'll leave you to decide
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whether that description applies to any of the people that I have just mentioned
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And, you know, until I've dug in, I doubt there are many people on the payroll at the policy exchange
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that didn't go to university. These people are normally recruited, I think, as undergraduates
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And it is a way in which you can pay people to essentially work for the right wing of British politics
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without having to have them on the payroll of the actual party
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That's why they're usually founded. Dominic Cummings founded one back in the day
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Ian Duncan Smith founded one back in the day. Keith Joseph founded one back in the day
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Michael Gove founded one. You've got this enormous army of very, very well-paid
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very well-educated people coming up with ways to sell right-wing policies to people who won't benefit from right-wing policies
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without having to call them conservative or even in the case of the Daily Mail this morning
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without even mentioning that it's an extremely right-wing organisation. So I don't currently, because I'm a trusting soul
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I don't doubt the research that they've done. They have found that more than 150,000 students a year
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struggled to reach the median, the average, salary. um the 35 000 pound threshold that represents the national average salary and it gets worse
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some of them aren't even earning over 24 000 pounds this will include the neats that we talk
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about an awful lot on this program and they make the point inevitably that young people are being
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signed up for degrees that can leave them with debts of £50,000 a year to study
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That's very much the top end, but it remains a reality. It remains a very real thing
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And so, the problem I've got this morning, and to be honest, if you get into media and journalism as a graduate
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you're going to be way below that national average for a good few years
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if not forever. I mean, that is just one of the givens. I think these national averages are probably hideously skewed
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by people who earned squillions, you know, by those of us who are lucky enough to earn very good wages
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There aren't that many of us, are there? Because we can't be one... Anyway, I digress
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I got an E in my AO level statistics, as you could probably guess
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when you listen to me discuss matters mathematical. So... Do I need, and I'm going to make it all about me today, deliberately, not accidentally, which is what usually happens
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Do I need to... I don't want to ask you this question
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Should we not be encouraging our young people to go to university
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and the big change I think and this is where I really need your help
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from younger people as it were I love that Oscar Wilde quote
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about a cynic being someone who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing
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and I don't think that's ever applied to anything in my experience
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more than it applies to education so particularly a university education a university education in my mind in my idealistic mind is about so much more than
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a university education it's about so much more than getting a degree it is depending on your
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background a huge improvement to your existence to meet people from very different backgrounds
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from your own there is if you're lucky enough to be able to apply yourself to your studies and most
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young people are something else i've learned as i've got older is that people like me who either
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won't or can't apply themselves to their studies are not the measuring stick for conversations like
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this one. But the beauty and the benefits of university, to me, were about 52-48, to coin a
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phrase. I'd say it was 52% academic qualifications and expectations of enhanced employment prospects
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and 48% intangibles, 48% being able to let your mind go to places that it wouldn't be able to go
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anywhere else on a regular basis as an adult, that you'd be able to dig into subjects
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whether they were technical or artistic, in ways that you would simply not be able to spend
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three years doing anywhere else in your life. There is a beautiful
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story in the news today about a boy in Ireland coming out of his
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exams to tell his mum that a poem she wrote about him
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about nearly ten years ago had turned up on his English paper
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or his literature paper. Imagine that! I mean, that, that, You see that feeling there
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If you have it, you know what I'm talking about. If you don't have it, stick with me
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You'll have it one day, I promise, if you stay with this programme. The idea of that boy coming out of his exam and saying to his mum
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the poem you wrote about me when I was seven, it's on the flipping paper, mum
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There's something that happens inside you when you hear something like that that is a little bit like what can happen at university if you're lucky
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If you're quite, or what used to happen at university. And it can't happen anywhere else
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I know it can but generally speaking it can't happen anywhere else
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in the same way that you can end up playing in the Premier League because you got discovered playing on Sundays
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on Hackney Marshes of course that exists but it not the normal path to playing in the Premier League The normal path to the sort of things I talking about was a university education
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And as I talked to you this morning, I worry that I sound... I'm 54, for the avoidance of doubt
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I worry that I sound as if I'm speaking to a different era. I'm speaking of a different era
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It doesn't mean the things that I'm saying aren't true, but it means that if I'm coming out with 50
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£100,000, £120,000 worth of debt, then that is a price not worth paying
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for the thing that I'm describing. And I wonder whether the thing that I'm describing
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even exists in a world where education has been so completely commoditised
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I remember being stunned to discover that students were complaining about lecturers not turning up
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And during COVID, students wanted refunds. Whereas when I was a kid
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if a teacher didn't turn up for a class or a lecturer didn't turn up for a lecture, it was straight to the union bar
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and trebles all round. but if you are entering into a commercial contract with your place of education then have all of the
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things that i'm talking about disappeared and that's the question i'm asking you this morning
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because i went to university but i know nothing about university i went to university but i know
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nothing about university i know nothing about university what one of my daughters is at
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university at the moment um but in dublin which makes it a completely different proposition from
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what it would be like if she was at university in england or in the united kingdom so i know
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nothing about it it's a much more preferable experience in in other countries where the
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debts are not so huge and where the commitment to learning for learning's sake is still complete
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I don't know whether or not that's a thing. Learning for learning's sake
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And that is the hideous question that I'm asking you this morning. Is learning for learning's sake dead in modern Britain
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0345 6060973. And if it is, then do we do our children a grave disservice
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by subscribing to the school of thought that says you have to go to university if you want to get ahead
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if you want to get a job, if you want to dot, dot, dot
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It's learning for learnings. And you will be an academic. You may be a teacher. You may be a parent who compares your own experiences to your children's
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You may be a student. You may be a recently graduated student
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I hate the idea of a young person coming away from a conversation like this
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thinking, I'm not going to go to university. but the reason why I hate it is because of all the things I think that you'll miss out on by not
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going but I've never had this thought before what if they're not there anymore what if they're not
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there anymore I mean I'm thinking of the societies I'm thinking of the extracurricular activities I'm
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thinking of the groups I'm thinking of the theaters and the debates I'm thinking of the newspapers and
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the radio stations I'm thinking of all the things that you can do at university that you may never do
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at any other point in your life. But is that worth tens
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if not hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of debt? So what is your answer to the question
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asked by a 19-year-old standing over there, an 18-year-old sitting over there
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waiting for their A-level results? Should I go? Should I try to go to university
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Yes or no? Oh, three, and you can say it depends. I'll take your quibbles
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Yes, if you are dot. No, if you are not. But there's an 18-year-old sitting next to me in the studio
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Let's make it me. 18-year-old me. My philosophy degree has not served me any purpose at all in my professional career
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Maybe a little bit of mental training, but I was one of those kids that turned up for exams high on ProPlus
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and managed to regurgitate things. I spent 48 hours cramming into my mind
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and barely paying attention for the three or four years of my course. Four years because I failed a year
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That's how much attention I was paying. So 18-year-old me sitting here in 2026, not in 1991
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saying, is it worth me going to university? Is it worth it anymore
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Not because of what was true, but because of what is true now
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Oh, man, I told you I was going to hate this question. But I'm looking forward to your answers
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And you can provide them by, you know the rest, dialing 0345 6060 973
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James O'Brien on LBC. 54 minutes after 10 is the time, and there's another bit
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There's another bit. I've told you this before, and it makes me sort of hypocritical
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but paying school fees to send my children to private schools for the latter part of their education
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was, for me, a refusal to let other people, other people's children have advantages
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that I could have given my children and didn't. so part of the reason why I hate the idea
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of telling young people not to go to university is that most people who are
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let us say working for Tufton Street think tanks or conservative politicians
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will be still sending their children to university do you get what I mean
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it's like I sort of think of little reese moggs running around the place
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with things that their parents have bought for them that I could have bought for my children and chose not to
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or things that you can't afford to buy for your children so they don't have to borrow money to get them
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And I'm telling you not to get them. But Reece Mogg's children will still have them
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That's why I think class is absolutely intrinsic to this conversation. Rowena is in Boreham Wood
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Rowena, what would you like to say? Hello, you're right. I'm very well, thank you. How are you
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I'm good, yeah. So I graduated uni like two years ago in 2024
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and I went to like a major London art school. I'm not going to name names
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Okay. You can if you want. I don't know. I'm sort of scared to you for some reason
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Right, don't worry. But yeah, it was like one of the major ones in London
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Okay. And it just like we all had the sense that it was just like majorly oversubscribed
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and because it was a practical course, like I did painting, we didn't actually have physically enough space
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for everybody to make their own work. So in the second year, they ended up devising the amount of space per student
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And we ended up with like one metre of wall space. And this is partly because they need the bodies
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to get the money, that they need to keep the whole place open. So it's a bit of a catch-22, isn't it
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Yeah. And were you signing up there expecting to make a career
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Most people on your course would have been expecting to make a career in art
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Or not? I mean, I think, yes, to an extent. I mean, with art school, I think there's obviously kind of a stereotype
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that obviously not everybody that comes through the doors is going to become like a, you know, world class, like a painter
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These days, it's the same with journalism school, to be honest with you. All these degrees that are vocational, film or, you know
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it used to just be art school and drama school when I was your age, and you'd think, oh, gosh, well, I'm going to get a proper degree
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because then I'll get a proper job. But it doesn't apply on the proper jobs anymore than it does for you
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and then you realise pretty quickly that there's no earthly way you're all going to spend the rest of your lives
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earning decent livings as painters Well yeah and I also just think there wasn really an opportunity to like actually fulfill like the potential of your own work because there just wasn enough space and like I guess teaching time and facilities but even just like just the space I mean it so simple
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Yeah, I hear that. I mean, you know, you could have done miniatures. Right, right, I mean, that's what they would say, they'd be like, well, you know, you just, you have to adapt, that's what being an artist is about
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So what you're telling me, and I hadn't thought of this dimension, is that because of the commoditization
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and because it has been completely commercialized, even the beauty of learning for learning's sake has been compromised
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So your experience over three years, you look back on it feeling squeezed
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You don't look back on it feeling, God, I had such an extraordinary freedom that I never would have had anywhere else in my life
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And those three years will always be precious to me, even if I start work tomorrow as a bookmaker or an accountant
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And you don't feel that you've even got that anymore. Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong, the people
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that I met were great, but like it's so much to do with luck
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and like, because you have to also buy your own materials, like that's really
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expensive, oil paint, canvas That's always been true, I think Yeah, yeah, but it's like
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you would think that the compensation would be like, oh, you actually have the space
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and the facilities to be able to utilise that Yeah, I hear you, so 18
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year old me, let's pretend for a moment that I am very gifted at art when I say to you, do you think I
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should go where you went, Rowena? No. Not where I went, at least
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I would definitely recommend going to a smaller art uni, maybe like in..
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I think I've heard good things about like Falmouth and things that are like not massive business art London
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franchises almost. Wow, I think I know where you went. It's not very hard to work out, is it? No
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I'm not going to say it. And can I ask how much debt you've got at the moment? I don't even know
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That's the spirit. Just keep sticking him in the drawer. if they're red under the bed
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29 minutes after 10 is the time. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
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And, you know, there are problems surrounding those debts as well because for a long time they were financially quite efficient
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Martin Lewis was a great champion of explaining why you shouldn't be intimidated by those debts
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but that's not true anymore. More on this after the very latest headlines with Dominic Eddard
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James O'Brien on LBC. 32 is the time you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
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Just a little more on this story, which I don't know quite
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I interviewed Cressida Cowell yesterday. You might not recognise the name. You probably do, but you'll be familiar with How to Train Your Dragon
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probably her most famous series of books, or far from the only one. Absolutely lovely woman
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I mean, it's a remarkable interview. And it's for full disclosure. and she has dedicated so much of her life
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both before and after becoming a worldwide phenomenon to encouraging children to read
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She told me a lovely story about being in a classroom and asking children what five-year-olds
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what superpower they would like to have. And a five-year-old girl puts her hand straight in the air
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and Cressida says, okay, what superpower would you like to have? And this five-year-old girl says
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my superpower would be to take everybody else's superpowers and make them better
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and then give them back. And I just thought, what an absolutely lovely thing that is
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What an absolutely beautiful thing that is. And I had a similar feeling when I got to work this morning
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and read about Emily Cullen picking up her son after his English exam, or his junior cycle English exam
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which is the Irish equivalent of GCSEs. Emily is a poet from Galway
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And a boy comes out of his English exam and says, well, she says he had a big, broad smile on his face
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and I thought, oh, that's good. He must have remembered some of his Shakespeare quotes
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I don't know if anyone else is in the flashcard period of their lives at the moment
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but you will, if you are, understand, or you ever have been, you'll understand exactly what she means
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And then her son Lee says to her, you won't believe it, Mum
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the poem you wrote about me came up in the paper. And that is exactly what happened
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She's the Mescal poet in residence at the University of Limerick, and back in the day
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He's 15 years old now, so it's equivalent to GCSEs. But when he was seven, she wrote a poem about him called Envoy in Chalk
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and it appeared in his junior cycle English exam. Does that make him a nepo baby? I don't know
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But it's one of the loveliest things I've heard in ages. And it somehow speaks to the spark
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in the same way that Cressida's story does about the five-year-old girl, the spark of education that I worry has gone out
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One text put it very, very bold. here it is from jordan learning for learning's sake is dead unless you have a lot of money
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and i have to ask you whether that's true or not however much i don't want it to be true doesn't
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matter i have to ask you given that your experiences will be much more current and recent and relevant
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than mine um and also because i can afford to look after my girls in this kind of space so i can give
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them an opportunity to enjoy learning for learning's sake but is jordan right is it dead unless you have
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a lot of money. Dan's in Southfields. Dan, what would you like to say? Morning, James. Hello, mate
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I almost don't want to have this conversation with you because... No, mate, it's both of us. Yeah. I mean
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there's no getting away from it. I had a very similar pathway
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to you, if you like. You know, I went to a good school, went to uni, did a degree, did everything
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I was sort of, you know, that was... It was a conveyor belt, really, wasn't it
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Although we may not have realised it at the time. Absolutely. And my
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daughter's about to go to uni, starts in September, and And I've not had this conversation with her
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And that's part of the reason why this is a difficult conversation to have with you. Luckily, I think she probably isn't into music or something
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What? You've failed on one parenting front, then. At least we can agree about that
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She loves me with three hours. She loves me with three hours. But my concern is either as a family we support her as much as we can
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We're looking at 60, 70K over three years. by the time you've got school fees of around
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school fees, uni fees of around 10k which if you've sent a kid
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to private school actually isn't, you know, a bit you're kind of thinking well that's almost a
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bonus. Yeah, I hadn't thought of it like that but you're right of course. Yeah
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I mean, average school fees in the UK you know, your school was
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one of the best you know. Yeah but that was 40 odd years
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ago and the numbers, you know, a journalist on the Daily Telegraph, just a normal
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journalist on the Daily Telegraph could just afford it. That wouldn't be true now. Well, I was one of these parents
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that because I went to public school, got the benefit of it. It was always a struggle
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to pay the money. I'm so glad that the VAT came in after we'd finished because that might have just
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pushed us over the edge. We would have found it some way, but anyway, it was tough
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I wasn't, you know, that's another conversation. But the reality is of her going to university
29:31
someone's going to pick up 60, 70k worth of debt, either us or we need to find that money or she's going to be encumbered
29:39
with that debt. And for what, you know, as you say, she's going to do a design degree
29:45
same as I did. I did it a year after you, yes, and a few years between us, followed
29:50
that pathway, got a job in design, it's paid my life, it's paid my, you know, it's one
29:55
of the few probably that actually did a degree and ended up, you know, carving a living problem
29:59
Even then, there were no guarantees. Far from it. But there's fewer guarantees now
30:04
Virtually no one on my course went into the industry. I was one of the very few. I got a first, which helped
30:09
and I really was passionate about it. There were people on my course who were, like
30:13
almost there just to do a degree. Yes. But I think the world has changed, you know
30:18
and I think AI has changed massively because I'm still in the industry as well
30:22
I can see what's coming. You know, I know how the world can change. This is really tough
30:27
So you're thinking you're not going to get a return on that investment in professional or career-based terms
30:34
What about the really scary elephant in the room? What about the learning for learning's sake or the joy of being at university for three years side of things
30:44
So I think the network thing actually, weirdly, is more obvious at public or private school than it is at university
30:53
because of the democratization of, which is a wonderful thing on paper
30:57
but the reality of it is, as you say, it's become kind of commoditized. There are a lot of courses now that literally just exist
31:04
because they can create a market for them. You know, they can sell that product, as it were
31:10
which is a horrible way to talk about education. But it is just true. It is just true
31:14
It is. And, you know, like the caller you had before, you know, which breaks my heart, you know
31:19
and you think for 60, 70K, I mean, that's minimum. You know, I mean, my one will be going in London
31:26
So it's what, I think 975, almost 10K a year fees. But then you've got accommodation on top of that, plus materials, whatever else
31:34
You're not going to get out of it for less than 60K over three years. If I was her, my daughter, I would say, you know what, don't even do it
31:43
Go into, if you can get an apprenticeship, get some work experience, make coffees for a year if you have to
31:48
you will after three years know more, bear in mind that I also
31:52
have interviewed many graduates over the years as well and see what the product looks like coming out of universities
31:58
I was very very lucky I had a couple of lecturers who were brilliant
32:02
who were from industry you know really knew their stuff I think that's changed a lot as well
32:08
in education So you're the perfect case study here aren't you because you feel all the things
32:14
I've described and yet the pull of that conveyor belt is still strong for people of not just our background and class
32:23
for want of a better word, but for anybody raised in a country where the university education
32:29
had a cachet that it actually probably doesn't have anymore. Which it doesn't have
32:34
because part of the flip side of the democratisation of education is that as everybody, as more and more people get degrees
32:43
more and more people go to university, it becomes less of a, unless you go to a really top university
32:49
then going to any other university doesn't give you, you know Or unless, and this is the heartbreak for me today
32:55
because I don't think anyone's going to talk me out of it, you're certainly not or you triple down on the learning for learning's sake
33:02
so you're saying of course children from, let me read you a beautiful message that I got
33:06
which really is a corollary to the one that we the caller that we took, the one that you're talking about
33:15
I'm not going to be able to find it now am I? but it was, here you go, I went to
33:19
Goldsmiths in 2000, this is from Alex and she says we had massive space, I came out with
33:23
little debt, I didn't expect to be an artist but I wanted three years to experiment
33:26
I've worked in accounts ever since but I feel so lucky to have been able to experience
33:31
university at that time when we were free to experiment, so you could triple down
33:35
on that, you could say of course it's worth going listen to Alex, that three years of her life was
33:38
seminal, they were formative, they were crucial but you can't say that to your daughter because
33:42
of the money that's involved. Exactly right. It was just a different..
33:46
I mean, it's also... It's painful because it shows our ages, right? Yeah. You know, you think the world doesn't change
33:52
It really has changed. It's been 30 years ago. Yeah. And so much has changed in that time
33:56
And as I say, just the... Even learning for learning's sake, the reality is
34:01
and you know this as well as I do, that actually getting experience in the workplace
34:05
every hour you spend in the workplace is worth 10 in an academic institution in most cases
34:11
especially in a vocational job. Even if you're making the coffees in the design studio
34:16
or the coffees in a... It's osmosis, isn't it? You're learning things all the time
34:21
And that was true when we were kids, but it wasn't either or then. And it feels..
34:25
You're a good man and a good dad, but I mean, you're on the horns of a dilemma there
34:30
and you have to do what she wants to do. You can't really
34:34
I worked so hard at her A-levels and got onto a decent course
34:39
and you can't then rain on her parade. but five years from now, ten years from now
34:43
with a little bit more distance generationally and a little bit more experience
34:47
more and more dads will probably go the other way. And rightly so
34:52
But if I was in exactly your position, I'd be doing exactly what you're doing. Oh, man, take care
34:58
1042 is the time. Corpsey takes Jordan's point even further. He says, learning for learning's sake was killed by Tony Blair
35:06
It's that relationship between study and cost. It doesn't apply in other countries
35:12
In fact, another one of the reasons why I don't like having this conversation inspired by today's policy exchange research on the front page of the Daily Mail
35:20
is that they are very much part of the political movement that knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing
35:26
And it's never their children who won't get these educations. It's always somebody else's
35:33
Joe's in Hounslow. Joe, what made you pick up the phone? Hi, James. Hello
35:37
I'm just finished my second year at university. And I must say, it is so valuable
35:46
I've really enjoyed it and I find it so interesting. And it does slightly, not break my heart
35:53
but when I hear people questioning its value, for me, when it is so valuable and I've really enjoyed it
35:59
I think there is a place for it. Good, good. I mean, there obviously is
36:03
It's just that I guess the graph has changed a bit. How much of it depends on where you go and what you're doing
36:11
I think on what you're doing is a massive kind of factor
36:16
And I think what you get out of university is what you put in. If you're doing a subject that you're incredibly, incredibly passionate for
36:22
and you're willing to work hard for, then absolutely university can be worth it
36:27
I was very set on what I wanted to do from a fairly young age. I have a brother who's about to go to university
36:33
who's very set on what he wants to do. and I'd absolutely say
36:37
university was the right thing for me and university was the right thing for him for others if you're not certain
36:43
I think it's not worth it in the same way but if you absolutely
36:46
do have a passion for something that's a huge difference though when I was your age
36:52
absolutely no certainty whatsoever I mean it would be a destination an even course
36:57
oh you can get into Bristol if you do this I've never heard of that before but you can get into Bristol if you do it
37:02
alright yeah I'll do that then dad and you know that that is a generational shift that i think you you can't see when you're in
37:09
the middle of it i certainly couldn't until quite recently so are you describing the joy
37:13
of studying something that you love and are fascinated by the pure and simple joy without
37:19
any necessary link to a future employment you just absolutely loving your studies well well the thing is is that what i want to do is related to my course so it kind of it and yes with that in mind but it the fact that I learning about it And yes I know I can apply it in the future
37:35
but I find it some things are so incredibly interesting that I don't mind sitting and reading
37:41
And not only that, but I think just the experience of university as well
37:48
So I would hazard the guess that you are at a... Well, people my age
37:54
and I'll make you s now, what people my age would call a cool university with a really banging social life
38:00
and lots and lots of extracurricular activities and societies. Yes, yes. And that was also played into my enjoyment of it
38:09
And I would say, when I talk to my parents about university, and the big thing that my parents say
38:15
is not only is it the academic stuff, but you learn to kind of live by yourself for the first time
38:19
in an environment that is not super hostile. You're kind of all in the same boat
38:25
And kind of, for me, I'm living with my friends all year round
38:29
And I think that as an experience is so good to have alongside getting so much value out of the academic side
38:35
And of course, when we speak about a million members of your generation being stuck in a sort of educational and professional limbo
38:42
the things you described take on an even greater resonance and an even greater value
38:46
What about the debt? How big a shadow does that cast over you? I mean, it casts a shadow over me
38:52
I mean, my parents are really quite cross about the changes and everything
38:57
I mean, I haven't dared to look at it at the moment. That's two out of two then on that
39:02
But in terms of the way I think about it is that
39:06
if you kind of talk about knowing the value of nothing, the value I feel, although it's really hard to put a numerical monetary value on it
39:17
in my head I feel that if you rounded up all those experiences
39:21
and everything like that, and then the links to future career, and try to quantify that, that would be worth more than the debt I'm paying
39:28
Yeah, this is a call that I needed. And oddly, you and Dan sit in perfect harmony with each other
39:33
because I'm pretty sure that if he felt his daughter did feel the passion that you feel
39:39
and did have the relationship between expectation and application at university, then he wouldn't be having the doubts and the reservation that he's having
39:46
So there will always be young people for whom university is obviously the best course
39:51
But as you say, the variables have changed enormously. I mean, for example, you would look at 18-year-old me
39:59
and my relationship with application and effort and passion, and you'd say, no, don't bother
40:05
Unless you're going to get stuck in, then there is not much point going
40:10
And that was true in 1991, to be honest with you, but it didn't have the debt, so it didn't matter
40:14
and then all the other stuff that I did I could have done elsewhere
40:18
because of other elements of my background so joining the drama society
40:22
all those things, I was in youth theatres and stuff like that but for loads
40:26
of people, that's what Joe's talking about you have opportunities and Alex
40:30
talking about being at Goldsmiths but in 2000, 26 years ago different world
40:36
therefore different answers to the same questions 1048 is the time James O'Brien on LBC
40:42
It's 10.51, you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. This is very powerful from Emma
40:49
who is a regular favourite contributor to the programme. It's reminiscent to me, they write, of feudalistic attitudes
40:59
Going to university for a lot of people, regardless of subject, is the first chance they get to move off the farm
41:05
to broaden their horizons past the five-barred portal of upper-class gatekeeping and see the world
41:12
Gosh, that's beautiful. It shows people who have only ever grown up in one place
41:17
with one group and one mindset that there are other possibilities. Telling someone they have to stay in their lane
41:24
and only aspire to the hay fork while constantly off on their own grand tours
41:30
No. And it's a point Jonathan makes in a slightly different way
41:34
when he points out these people are only attacking university because it's lefty
41:39
Again, you will see the same happening across the pond. And then schools will be lefty. Education is lefty
41:45
So we start talking about sending people out to work at 13 years old, like in the good old days
41:51
to stiffen out the youth who have been inept in the world of work since time eternal
41:57
That's the thing. That's the absolute nub of what I'm trying to talk about, the value versus the cost
42:04
But have things become so completely cost-oriented that we've lost the value
42:10
Not for the last lad, not for the chap in house lad
42:14
What was his name? Lovely bloke. My memory's an absolute mess at the moment
42:18
But for the earlier callers, it was. And for the parents wondering about whether or not it's worth it
42:25
It does seem that the cost has clouded out the value. Because cost and value are not the same thing
42:33
Unless you're a Tory. Kate's in Bristol. Kate, what would you like to say
42:37
Hello, James. It's lovely to speak to you today. Thank you. First time caller and all that
42:43
but I felt quite compelled to phone in. I was the first person in my family
42:49
to go to university back in 94. And I think I probably did it
42:54
because I didn't know what I wanted to do and I loved education. And I was incredibly lucky
42:58
that my dad was able to fund me through it. I'm trying to remember
43:04
what the student loan system was back then, but I know that I came out with no debt
43:09
Yes, well your dad probably did a little bit more than you realised, but you wouldn't have come out with anything like the debt that you would do now
43:15
No, absolutely. And I had quite a tough time at uni, but I'm really glad I got my degree and I think it's gone on to help me in so many ways other than just academically
43:28
I've got 25 year old twin boys now one of them went to uni in Bristol
43:36
and he's come out with colossal debt but he was incredibly he knew absolutely what he wanted to do
43:43
from about the age of dot and so he's gone on he knew what he wanted to do
43:48
and he's got his dream job now so the debt is awful
43:54
but it's really hard because I think until he earns enough to start paying it back
44:01
he sometimes pays it back a little bit depending on what his salary is
44:05
But his twin brother has no prospects, wasn't particularly academic. Wow, you've got a sociological experiment in your own family
44:17
I know. Because they're twins. I mean, it's the perfect control, isn't it
44:21
Yeah, and it's really interesting because the one that didn't go to uni now
44:24
kind of looks at his brother and is like, should have done better at school
44:29
And they actually live together now. And the uni one, I call it the uni one
44:34
he actually pays more rent so that his brother can live with him. And so it's..
44:40
It's a sociological experiment and a microcosm of society. Yeah, because there's no way that unless the other one goes back to education
44:49
which just isn't his bag, he got for him to kind of move forward now and get a good wage is really difficult Whereas his brother done the hard work and has got huge debt under his collar i not sure which i understand what you saying but you just making me
45:08
recognize i knew there'd be flaws in this research because of where it comes from and who stuck it on
45:12
their front page this morning so so the median full-time worker salary that includes people at
45:17
retirement age yeah so really that figure is utterly meaningless because what you really want
45:23
to see is how the people with degrees compare in their first job to people who haven't got degrees
45:30
and what the daily mail and policy exchange have done because that's what they do is that they have
45:34
completely manipulated the figures to fit the political point that they're trying to make which
45:40
is that people who are not from wealthy backgrounds shouldn't be going to university well and it's
45:46
it's it's just it's it's frustrating but this is why when you do conversations like this i normally
45:51
drive and listen but today I was compelled to uh to pull over and talk to you because it just makes
45:57
you think and it makes you question and it's um yeah yeah you're right and and you're I mean
46:04
it's interesting is it when did can I ask you a slightly personal question yeah when did you
46:09
realize that the boys had different intellectual capabilities are they identical twins yeah they're
46:16
identical twins. That's why I ask. Everyone's fascinated by identical twins. They always have been. But when
46:22
did you realise that one was... I think even right back at
46:26
school, like little school, what do you call it? Infant school. Like one of them
46:30
would question things. He'd want to know more why something was. And
46:33
I always say if you put them together, you get a whole one. Because they are literally
46:38
down the middle. In and young. Yeah. But the one that doesn't go to uni has got
46:44
the most amazing qualities. Yes, of course. But they're no good in the work..
46:49
Well, they are good in the workplace, but they don't account for monetary
46:53
No, and it may change as the years pass. He may stumble into something that fits him like a glove
46:59
and end up rocking the world and looking after his brother, because that's the most beautiful thing you've told us
47:04
is that they kind of operate at the age of 25 as something of a unit
47:08
with one picking up the slack for the other and one helping out. Because he can and because he wants to
47:13
You've clearly done something very right there, Kate. Thank you for your call. A sparkling debut
47:18
1057 is the time. Which was the politician who says, I love the poorly educated
47:23
Shreed, any guesses on that? Which politician said recently, I love the poorly educated
47:29
I'll try and find you a little clip, shall I? Sam's in Brighton. Sam, what would you like to say
47:34
Hi there, James. So, I work in a southern university. I finished my PhD in 2016
47:40
and honestly the death knoll for education for education's sake was the increase in fees
47:48
and then the final kind of nail in the coffin was the increase in interest rates that young people are playing
47:56
That way it has to be an investment into the employable future
48:01
rather than a formative experience. So learning for learning's sake is toast really
48:08
it has you know since the introduction of the financial constraint then absolutely it's gone
48:13
so it's nice as you pointed out kind of class structure it's nice if you're from a middle
48:17
class background and you can be supported and you can have that uh you can have that extra support
48:22
should you be uh trying to get placements in places that don't necessarily support but as a
48:26
as a first in family working class kid it's it's not that you don't have that choice and i see many
48:32
kids who are brought into into my university on my courses and they really shouldn't be there they
48:37
They don't know what they want to do. They're just accumulating debt. They have no idea about how much debt they're accumulating
48:41
And yet on the other side of the argument, there are still professions in particular and jobs in general
48:48
that you can't get close to without a degree. So you're still..
48:52
It's still a golden ticket in many ways. You can't get close to without a degree in connections and that networking
48:57
So it's more than just the degree. I mean, my son... Yeah, but you still need the degree
49:02
You do absolutely need the degree. And you need a degree for a good university. and then you also need the connection to get you into that
49:09
So, you know, my son, who's 18, who's got offers from Russell Groups at the moment
49:13
I'm telling him to choose apprenticeship. And is he going to take your advice
49:18
I mean, I sold him the university experience prior, but as we've kind of been working out the finances
49:25
he's thinking about it and he's looking at it. What's the picture with regards to..
49:30
However, you know, it would be a wonderful experience for him to go to university
49:34
It's just unaffordable. It's just become, it's edging ever further out of reach
49:39
for more and more people. What is the score with regards to apprenticeships? Because I don't want to just let that pass as a glib alternative
49:46
You've obviously looked into it and decided it's attractive. It's attractive because they pay for their tuition
49:52
and they give them a wage and they have the same independence. You don't necessarily have the same campus experience
49:58
but you still have your connections. You still develop your education. There's some very good apprenticeships out there
50:02
but they are quite competitive but it is definitely a way forward
50:06
you know it's just because they gutted the learning for learning's sake
50:11
kind of courses from most universities so it's you know Yeah and some still persist
50:17
but it was Joe I think it was Joe wasn't it in Hounslow who was telling us about that
50:21
some still persist and yet the massive experience which is what I opened this hour by talking about
50:27
the commonality of experience when I was your son's age has just changed beyond all recognition
50:33
That wasn't quite as heartbreaking as I thought it was going to be that hour, but it didn't, I'm afraid, turn the oil tanker around
50:40
in any way, shape or form. We did actually ask Policy Exchange
50:44
the lobby group, stroke think tank, stroke educational charity that has issued these figures
50:50
without pointing out that they're comparing people who graduated in the last five years
50:54
to the median wage, which will include people who are never going to retire
50:58
It will include every wage from every age group right across the country in order to make the point that they want to make
51:04
which the Daily Mail obligingly sticks on its front page, and plenty of broadcasters won't do the thinking that's necessary to work out the detail here
51:12
Is university a waste of money? We asked them how many of their senior staff didn't go to university about an hour ago
51:21
We haven't heard back yet. It is one minute after 11. One question I can answer for you
51:26
Who was the politician who said, I love the poorly educated? I loved the poorly educated
51:32
Ah, yeah, of course it was. James O'Brien on LBC. Two minutes after 11, and I think we're going to knit together
51:40
quite a few things that are going on at the moment in the course of the next conversation
51:44
That horrible story from Belfast that you just heard referred to. I left the studio for a moment
51:50
so I don't know if the bulletin mentioned the suspected origins of the suspect in that case
51:57
but they mean that another political bandwagon will take off now which will be an extraordinary one to witness
52:04
because people are going to claim potentially that hideous violence in Northern Ireland
52:09
is a consequence of immigration which, I mean, if the subject matter wasn't so serious
52:14
that would be an irony beyond ironies but of course the truth or facts or history or knowledge or experience
52:21
won affect any of the people who used Henry Novak murder against the express wishes of his family to score bogus and fallacious political points and no doubt they be doing the same So stand by for reading about how Northern Ireland
52:37
a particularly hideous bloodbath in the annals of British and Irish history
52:43
is witnessing acts of hideous violence as a consequence of immigration. I point that out because, oh, it's just true
52:53
and we move from that to Kami Badenoch's insistence that she's going to get rid of equality legislation
53:01
or change equality legislation, again, as you heard in your bulletin and then we turn to a story about the white working classes
53:08
which I don't know if it has happened yet but it probably will
53:14
The white working classes are by far the most likely to skip school
53:21
to not go to school. The figures are extraordinary. So I don't know if there's any way you can turn that into anti-white bias
53:29
Because when I started in this job, I think the figures were the other way around
53:34
Or certainly the white working class was always overrepresented in truancy. But that was achievement, wasn't it, not truancy
53:40
It was young black children, particularly young black boys, were doing worst at school
53:44
And everybody blamed it on the parents. But they no longer are
53:48
as a direct consequence of the sort of policies that Cami Baden-Ock is keen to get rid of
53:53
because they address things like institutional racism in schools. Lo and behold, young black kids now do a lot better than they used to do
54:00
and even better than some other demographics. So it turns out it wasn't the parents at all
54:04
it was actually the institution. So I suspect we're going to hear soon how schools are..
54:09
And they won't be able to claim they're biased against white kids because, of course, middle-class white kids are still doing
54:13
almost as well as... well, better than almost anybody else. but they're biased somehow against working class white kids
54:20
So the Farragists will be somehow checking your child's credentials at the door of the school, establishing what class they belong to
54:26
and then treating them well or badly. I wish I was making this up. I wish I was making this up, but I'm not
54:33
And my thanks, of course, to Nick Abbott for ensuring that that clip of Donald Trump
54:38
saying that he loves the poorly educated is very near the top of the in-queue at LBC Towers
54:44
Nick making genius radio in ways that, I mean, he's been doing it for longer than I have
54:49
and he still reaches heights that the rest of us can only dream of as a broadcaster
54:53
If you haven't checked out his show, then do. My Uber driver yesterday spent a significant part of our journey singing Nick Abbott's praises
55:01
which is exactly what you want as a radio presenter, to hop into a car and hear somebody waxing lyrical about the brilliance of one of your colleagues
55:09
Nine minutes, as long as it's Nick Abbott. Nine minutes after 11 is the time
55:14
And so there's a bit of class, there's a bit of race, there's a bit of ethnicity, there's a bit of political point scoring
55:19
there's a bit of fallacious posturing. There's a lot going on here
55:24
And I want to know about the children involved more than anything else
55:30
7.6 million pupils ysed by University College London, white working class children are more than twice as likely
55:39
as the average pupil to be severely absent from school. So, here's an example of some inverted snobbery
55:47
If you were talking to me about middle-class children being absent from school, I would ask you a question about the difference
55:54
between can't and won't. You may have heard me do that. If I was talking to you about middle-class children
55:59
being absent from school, children like my own, then I would be talking to you about
56:04
what's the difference between won't go to school and can't go to school
56:07
and then we start talking about things like neurodiversity and we start talking about things
56:13
like anxiety and depression and um adhd and various other uh increasingly successfully
56:21
diagnosed conditions that in in the in families where parents have sought out diagnoses
56:27
explanations are provided for why their children struggle with something called school refusal
56:32
which is an unhelpful term and probably one that needs changing but one that is very different from
56:37
truant. You move the spotlight to the working classes and the word truant
56:43
doesn't even get put in quotes in the Times newspaper today. One in twenty working
56:49
class children in England are missing at least half of their schooling. I don't know if it's the
56:53
sub-editor that stuck the word truant in the headline and I don't know
56:57
because I haven't read the whole thing whether or not it even appears in the University College London
57:01
ysis but a little bit of me doubts it. I suspect they use phrases
57:05
like persistently absent or missing a percentage of lessons. And then they will make comparisons
57:11
and they find that white working class pupils miss 13% of lessons compared with 7% nationally
57:20
And about half of those, 45%, are unauthorised. So if you are white working class
57:27
you're twice as likely to miss school than anybody else. Why? and we've had extraordinary phone-ins in the past we've had one we may have had two but we've
57:40
definitely had one about what it's like to be the child of parents who don't care about education
57:45
and there's there's a dimension to that here and i may move on to that question in the course of
57:51
the next hour but what i really want you to do is tell me what it was like to be that child
57:58
so it's a bit of an ask this because I'm working on the principle
58:03
that it is possible well I need three things to be true
58:08
for you to ring me I need you to be a member of the white working class
58:15
I think I need four things I need you to have been
58:19
a frequent truant so a won't go to school or didn't go to school
58:25
not a can't go to school and I need you to have turned your life around
58:31
to a sufficient degree that you can tell me why that was
58:38
And then, of course, the fourth thing I need is for you to be listening to this programme at this precise moment in history
58:43
So there are four things that I need in place here, but I'm nothing if not ambitious
58:48
Thing number one, what is your explanation for this? Sorry, the four things that I need you to do are you need to be a white working class person or you need to have been a white working class child
59:05
You need to have been somebody who was often absent from school without authorization
59:13
You need to have reached a point where you can offer up an explanation for that
59:20
So I think, I hope this doesn't sound snobbish, I think that involves in part having turned your life around in some way
59:26
Having made something of yourself despite the fact that your beginnings were so difficult
59:31
And then, of course, the fourth thing that I need is for you to be listening to this program at the moment
59:38
There's not a lot I can do about the fourth thing. There's not a lot I can do about any of those things
59:42
All I can do is encourage you, if you have all four of those things on your CV, is encourage you to ring in
59:48
because what I want you to tell me is why you think it is
59:58
So I know what white means. Okay, we all know what white means. We can tie ourselves in knots trying to work out exactly what working class means
1:00:06
For the benefit of research like this, I think we're probably looking at a socio-economic group, a sort of financial distinction
1:00:15
but there's probably some elements of parents' education. It's going to be the poorest kids, but there'll be elements of parents' education and things like that
1:00:23
So that there are, and of course, working class may be something of an oxymoron because the parents may be more likely to be out of work, but they still qualify as working class for the purposes of parameters like this
1:00:36
and I want you just to tell me why you think that is
1:00:39
because, I mean, it's a much maligned phrase, white working class. I'll tell you something for nothing
1:00:46
If we ever find ourselves at war in anything like a conventional sense, then you will thank your lucky stars for the existence of the white working class
1:00:54
But at times like this, they're either used as weapons in race provocations
1:01:00
you have middle class, privately educated, far-right politicians pretending to speak for the white working class
1:01:06
by telling them that they're victims of prejudice, when of course they're not
1:01:09
but as long as you can persuade them that they are, then they won't start wondering why privately educated far-right politicians
1:01:15
are taking millions of pounds from foreign-based business people and refusing to explain either why
1:01:20
or why they kept it secret. So you've got to keep people angry
1:01:26
you've got to keep them oppressed, you've got to keep them believing that they're victimised
1:01:30
but they are real words. White, working class. And truancy is obviously, for the reasons that we covered quite effectively in the last hour
1:01:40
going to be a great, great obstacle to living your best life
1:01:45
The less education you have, the fewer opportunities you have. So why would being white, working class, and I want to make this
1:01:52
well, I don't necessarily want to exclude you from the programme on generational terms
1:01:58
but I am interested in the specifics of the United Kingdom in 2026
1:02:05
Why today are white working class children twice as likely to skip school
1:02:14
That's won't, not can't. White working class children are twice as likely to skip school as almost, well, as anybody else
1:02:22
0345 6060973. and if you were one of those children then you can go to the front of the queue today
1:02:30
speaking of queues Benjamin has just kicked open the doors of Idiot's Corner
1:02:34
who's taking bets on James going through the whole show without mentioning Belfast
1:02:39
I want to put some money on it alright mate, how much? and then you just press rewind on Global Player
1:02:46
and find that you sent that message at 11.13 and I know counting is difficult for you
1:02:52
but that was approximately four minutes after I talked about it so perhaps you could make a donation to a refugee charity of your choice this is james o'brien on lbc
1:03:02
it is 11 18 you are listening to james o'brien on lbc and uh i got a few people who um
1:03:11
are ticking all four boxes oliver puts himself in that category i skived school from year seven
1:03:16
onwards i didn't go in at all for any of year 11 my mother never cared about education i'm white
1:03:20
working class and I'm listening, says Oliver, who is now working as a self-employed Tyler
1:03:26
Turned his life around at about the age of 30. So I need you, Oliver, and people in your
1:03:31
position to tell me why you think... I mean, some of the answers may be
1:03:35
obvious, but why you think the prevalence of skipping school is so much higher among
1:03:40
white working class children. And listen, I'm fascinated by inverse prejudices. When you think you're on the side of the angels
1:03:49
but actually you're indulging in a prejudice, yourself. So if I say white working class kids skipping school, do you immediately feel sorry
1:03:57
for them? Because if I say middle class kids who can't go to school, then I will be encouraging you
1:04:04
to immediately feel sorry for them. And that's why I am focusing upon the fact that these are
1:04:09
unauthorized absences, but it is written and the research is conducted very much in a way
1:04:14
that is casting these children as tearaways, as ruffians, as, sorry, that's not true, the research is not written like that
1:04:23
the newspaper coverage is. And it speaks to a sort of ancient prejudice
1:04:28
of the feral youth, the great unwashed, whereas in fact, if a child's parents are sufficiently disengaged
1:04:37
to not care whether the child goes to school or not, that child needs looking after
1:04:42
and sympathising with. But it's hard to do, right? It's hard to do
1:04:48
Billy's in Sevenoaks. Billy, what made you pick up the phone? Well, listening to your conversation
1:04:54
past about the four boxes, I pretty much ticked them. Good man
1:04:59
Basically, so when I was sort of 14 years old, my life changed
1:05:03
and I ended up moving out of my mum's house. I didn't really get on with a stepfather
1:05:08
and moving in with an absent dad who remained absent once I moved in with him
1:05:13
So from the year nine onwards till the end of year 11, I was skipping school frequently
1:05:19
In that time, I also become a persistent young offender, getting in trouble with the police multiple times
1:05:24
and having to go to juvenile courts, etc. Did anyone go with you to court
1:05:31
Sort of extended family, friends. My mum was supportive. It was, like I said, it was the incidents from my stepfather that sort of pushed me out of that environment
1:05:42
So my mum did remain supportive, but ultimately I was left to my own devices
1:05:47
So by the time I come into young adulthood, between the ages of 18 and 25, you know, I was kind of distraught and hanging about with the wrong people, getting in trouble, not doing the right thing
1:05:59
And then, you know, I made a decision. I become self-employed within an industry
1:06:04
I worked from the bottom up with starting off on £8.75 an hour, minimum wage at the time
1:06:11
Worked my way up, was self-employed for 10 years within that industry
1:06:15
And then all of a sudden, I had a lucky break and I got offered a salary
1:06:20
which is within the top 20% of people's PAY salaries, having never had a job before
1:06:27
And, you know, within school, the only qualification I have is a C grade within maths GCSE
1:06:33
I've done zero further education I've done zero university with that being said I have zero
1:06:39
debt and zero obligation to pay anything back. That's true. And now
1:06:44
in my mid-30s I've kind of leapfrogged a lot of what people go to university for
1:06:50
and become, you know got myself into a PAYE salary job which
1:06:54
makes me feel worthwhile and makes me justify, you know, getting up
1:06:59
in the morning and going to work hard Yeah, and the steeper the mountain, the more fulfillment there is in reaching the peak
1:07:07
Let me just rewind a bit, if I can, Billy. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but from the way that you told that story
1:07:16
the reason why you didn't go to school, or a large part of the reason why you skipped so much school
1:07:20
was because no adult was particularly bothered whether you went or not. Yeah and at the time the schools didn have the systems in place to report truancy There was never any threat of any fines or any court action or anything like that It was before that time
1:07:36
And something will stick with me forever. Now, my head of year at the time, I won't say his name, of course
1:07:43
but my head of year at the time, when I turned up to do my match GTFC..
1:07:47
Yeah, please don't. He was shocked to have seen me. Right. He was my head of year, and he didn't even know if I still attended that school or not
1:07:56
Good Lord. You know? Are you cross with anyone when you look back
1:08:01
No, no, no, because I made the decisions from my life. I don't have many regrets
1:08:06
I do, of course, I have some regrets. If I could go back and go back to education, of course, I'd stick with education
1:08:14
But you need somebody. So there needs to be a hand on your tiller at that age, doesn't there
1:08:17
There needs to be somebody steering you, and there wasn't. Yeah, there certainly does. And like adults don't understand the pressures that children feel. For example, I used to have to travel quite a way to school because I moved location
1:08:32
Yeah, when you moved home. Of course, and to be fair, James, I lived in, I went through five locations within the space of two years where I lived
1:08:44
So I was with mum, then went with grandparent, then I went with dad in temporary accommodation
1:08:50
then more temporary accommodation until we actually got our permanent place. And that was over the space of two years
1:08:56
But within that two years, it's a similar period as to when I went off the rails and was left to my apartment
1:09:01
Of course it is. And you see someone looking in from the outside is just going to see a kid going off the rails
1:09:06
They're not going to see the fact that you didn't know where you were going to put your head at night
1:09:11
You didn't know where home was. You didn't have that sense of security. You didn't have the care, the concern, the interest
1:09:18
the simple solidity of an address, the same address, all of those things
1:09:24
But if I'm looking at it from the outside, I'm just seeing someone who is bad
1:09:28
Off the rails, who gives his trouble, who will give you stick, if that makes sense
1:09:33
And another thing that will always stick with me, James, one more thing that I must say
1:09:37
Now, I must have been about 15, 16 years old, and it was when I just first..
1:09:42
Well, not first, I'd been getting into trouble for around one to two years consistently with the police
1:09:46
Do you know what the police done to help me? No. Sent me a Christmas card saying
1:09:50
we're watching you. Yeah. There was no... It's not exactly what you'd call rehabilitation, is it
1:09:58
No, no, because you know what? that done at the time? No, I don't. It made me angry and it made
1:10:03
me say to them, but... I don't think that came out enough for us to dump it
1:10:11
It made me very angry and it made me basically stick my middle finger up and say, you'll catch
1:10:15
me now, and I probably committed twice as much crime due to the fact of
1:10:19
being 15, 16 years old and being manipulated. And feeling marked. Feeling marked already
1:10:25
That's it. They've got me down. I'm on a list. I can't, there's no point in me trying to turn my life around
1:10:30
because I'm a wrong and in the eyes of the actual police. At 15, 16 years old, being through all what I've been through
1:10:36
And the funny thing was, you know, what the police should have been doing is
1:10:40
they should have been watching the real criminals, the adults who, you know, were in their 20s
1:10:45
and still committing crime. And then somebody like me, they should have been offering support and services
1:10:50
to prevent me committing crime because if I was preventing committing crime
1:10:54
I'd probably say, as of the guests, and I'm no expert here, but I'll probably cost the country around half a million pounds
1:11:00
or a million pounds in court appearances, solicitors, prison space, etc., etc., etc
1:11:05
Whereas they could have invested probably 5% of that amount in a community scheme
1:11:10
and they probably could have prevented two or three people like myself going down that route
1:11:14
You should be advising the Minister of Justice, mate, not ringing up me on a Tuesday morning
1:11:19
because that is the power of prevention and rehabilitation in a, let's say, in a chuffing nutshell, shall we, Billy
1:11:27
There you go, mate. That's fascinating. And quite straightforward when you think about it
1:11:33
because when they say white working classes, that they are essentially saying disconnected or absent parents
1:11:41
in Billy's case. And I will make a personal point here, because there were kids at schools like mine
1:11:46
whose families were incredibly dysfunctional, but they could pay 30 or 40 grand a year
1:11:51
to have their children taken off their hands for most of the year
1:11:55
Not an option for Billy's family. Sean's in Eastleigh. Sean, what would you like to say? Good morning
1:12:01
Yeah, I come from a white, working-class family. I didn't really get on at school in the early 70s
1:12:10
going into the 80s, and I left school 85, 86. Hated school
1:12:16
I had a bad start in life, I think, as in one of my parents was dyslexic
1:12:22
The other one worked a lot. I come from a really loving family and a very supportive family
1:12:27
especially with grandparents and also with mum and dad. But when I went to school in the early 70s
1:12:33
because I was sort of like, didn't know the colours of the rainbow, couldn't count to 10, didn't know me ABC
1:12:40
didn't know how to spell my own name, basically, but I knew other things. So I could go to a train station, get on a train and go all around the country
1:12:47
even at five years old, could get public transport, and all about that
1:12:52
and all about the new forest and wildlife and all these sorts of things. But I just didn't have that grounding
1:12:58
Because no one had given it to you? No, I just didn't get it, no
1:13:02
Mum being dyslexic, obviously she couldn't read or write or no good with figures
1:13:07
until the day she... Excuse me, until the day she died. So it was a case of really
1:13:15
school wasn't for me. And did school mark you out from pretty much day one
1:13:21
So you turned up without that arsenal of knowledge, and they therefore thought that there was no point
1:13:28
I mean, because that would be a really unfair thing to happen to you, Sean. It was, I think so, yeah
1:13:34
There was one teacher in particular, when I went from infants into the juniors
1:13:40
he sort of took me under his wing and said, get these books, do this, that, and the other
1:13:45
Apart from read and write, and basic maths, add up and take away
1:13:49
I didn't really, when I left school, I didn't really know anything else
1:13:53
And to be fair, university just wasn't for me and definitely not going to college or university
1:13:59
So I went down the line of an apprenticeship. That's what I wanted to do
1:14:04
I struggled to get into that because I had very little qualification. But I did get in, come out of that with distinctions
1:14:12
I did go on to do an advanced craft as well within the apprenticeship industry
1:14:19
and then I joined the railway industry as a bricklayer and then I just worked my way up into supervisory roles
1:14:27
and then into management roles and now I'm senior project manager. And you enjoy your work enormously, I think
1:14:34
I think I've been there 35, 36 years now and I still like it
1:14:40
There's not a day that I don't get up and think I don't want to go in the day. That's a gift. I'm the same, actually
1:14:44
We're both very lucky in different ways. Did you skip a lot of school when you were..
1:14:48
Yeah, yeah, all the time, yeah, yeah. I would go get my school uniform on and go
1:14:53
and then I'd end up going fishing, or I go do something completely And did Mum know that was happening Did Mum and Dad know They did eventually because there was letters going home and then there was all sorts of people got involved from the school
1:15:06
and had to come around and speak to my parents so I had to go into the school and that
1:15:11
It's like you were, you know, do you remember those things we used to play with when we were kids
1:15:14
when you'd have a star shape and a circle and a square shape and you had to slot them
1:15:18
through the holes into the... It's like they were trying to, it's like the education system
1:15:23
it's like you were a star shape and they were trying to shove you through a circle. Exactly, yeah
1:15:28
And the system, I mean, and your mum and dad were not negligent, but they just didn't have the tools or the vocabulary to help you
1:15:36
and the school, apart from that one teacher, just sort of let you slide away
1:15:42
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You always put in the to-do-better groups, if you like
1:15:48
There's another couple of words I'd use, but I won't use them on your show. No, better not. Billy nearly went there, Sean
1:15:54
but I think we got away with it, right? Yeah, but we were in the Could Do Better
1:16:00
Yeah, of course. And you were branded, but next year, when you went up a year
1:16:05
you were automatically put in them groups. You didn't really get the opportunity to..
1:16:09
It still hurts, doesn't it? A little bit, it still does, but..
1:16:13
That's 40 years later. Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why it's important to..
1:16:19
I know a lot more than most people did, you know? I can survive in the real world
1:16:26
it was just academically I struggle and even today to this very day
1:16:30
if I get put under pressure it all comes back from being at school
1:16:34
because if I had to take an exam or something like that the heart rate goes up, the sweats come on
1:16:39
and everything and it all stems from not being I think it was being included
1:16:44
when we were at school because we were in the in the lower 1
1:16:48
I suppose of the class and I suppose, I mean I don't know what a teacher
1:16:52
would say about this, but the resources and the personnel are probably tighter now than
1:16:59
it was even when you were a kid. So the temptation for members of the system to let people slip
1:17:04
through the system because it spares them the job or the responsibility of looking after
1:17:09
them is going to be hard to resist in some cases. But you tell a great story, an inspiring
1:17:13
story, you don't mind me saying that, of just sticking to your enthusiasms and finding
1:17:18
a job that met them and rising to a supervisory role despite not having reached
1:17:24
the educational thresholds that you may have been required these days. That's the point
1:17:30
That's why I said a minute ago what do you think of? Because you didn't
1:17:34
think of Sean and Billy when I said a little boy, a child
1:17:38
a white working class kid who skips school a lot. You didn't think of Billy and Sean
1:17:44
You thought of someone bad that you'd read about in the papers and albeit that Billy did
1:17:48
commit a lot of crimes as a kid. He clearly turned it around and had the
1:17:52
capability to be somebody different all the time. And that's why I think the words white working class are important
1:17:58
for once in a new story as opposed to being used as a sort of
1:18:03
byword or shorthand for middle class people pretending to believe that everybody poorer than them is racist
1:18:09
Here's Dominic Ellis with your headline. James O'Brien on LBC. Here's 1136
1:18:14
You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. where a conversation, I mean, it's gone in a really powerful direction, hasn't it
1:18:23
A conversation about why white working class children are twice as likely to skip school
1:18:28
than almost anybody else. And the answer is not really as interesting as the stories
1:18:34
The answer, in short, is because they can, largely, because there aren't any adults in their lives who are not laying down the law
1:18:43
or reaching for the, you know, for the punishment book, but who are just not sufficiently
1:18:50
either they're either not able or not minded to make sure that children go to school
1:18:56
Class and privilege are such, I mean, almost every subject we talk about
1:19:02
could come down to class and privilege. And I wasn't exaggerating when I said there'd be kids at my school
1:19:07
who, if they were not wealthy from wealthy families, they'd have been truants
1:19:12
You know, they would have had very dysfunctional home lives. Look at some of the aristocracy over the course of the last few hundred years
1:19:19
Incredibly dysfunctional, but if you've got several million pounds in the bank, you can get away with it in ways that you simply can't wear mum and dad a skin
1:19:28
So you could pay tens of thousands of pounds to farm out, to outsource childcare
1:19:34
And they did, you know. But the white working class experience is going to be completely different
1:19:40
And this is why having these conversations matters. because if you don't have these conversations
1:19:45
then that phrase, white working class, gets co-opted by upper class and middle class racists
1:19:51
who want to pretend that it is all because of immigration or it's all because of foreigners
1:19:56
that people aren't getting the opportunities and the breaks they deserve. Whereas in these cases
1:20:01
it's simultaneously much simpler and much more complicated than that. A lot, a lot, a lot of love coming in for Billy and for Sean
1:20:09
And I add mine to it as well. 1138 is the time. And Michael's in Brentwood, almost
1:20:14
Michael, what would you like to say? Good morning, James. Thank you for having me on
1:20:19
It's a pleasure to speak to you. I've spoken to you before about similar subjects
1:20:25
So I'm, I guess, definably white working class. I like to use the word painfully white
1:20:32
You and me both, mate. I grew up in, across Waltham Forest initially
1:20:38
And then when I started being a little bit of a toe rag, my mum had the good sense to move us out to Billericay
1:20:45
which was a furthest from London she thought she could get, Essex
1:20:49
Just going to pause you already, if you don't mind. Because that word, to-rag, that's self-defining as bad, isn't it
1:20:58
And I know it was a throwaway line, but you weren't born at her
1:21:02
I was about 12 years old, and I started engaging with low-level criminality
1:21:05
So I think my mother, in a very rare example of clear thought
1:21:15
decided she didn't want her son to become a fully-fledged criminal and moved us out to Essex, which didn't really help much
1:21:20
Yeah, I get that. But I suppose in my ideologies tell me
1:21:27
that you wouldn't have been like that if you were being brought up in different circumstances
1:21:31
or a different place, as your mum proves. Oh, probably not. No, I mean, I grew up on a crummy estate in Walthamstown
1:21:39
You know, I guess everyone is kind of pretty self-deprecating. But to a point, most lads I grew up with are pretty self-deprecating
1:21:49
But when I was in secondary school, I was a pretty high achiever
1:21:55
I didn't really need to work much to kind of pass, you know, pass the test to get into the top sets
1:22:04
But school just wasn't challenging for me. I got to, you know, the GCSE years
1:22:11
and there were three or four of my options that I took that I just weren't interested in
1:22:16
So I resolved to go and self-educate, and I'd bunk off school, and I'd go to the library and..
1:22:20
Well, that's not quite what we're talking about, is it, to be fair? I mean self because you kind of felt that the school system was not meeting your intellectual capacity isn quite the same as the white working class being scarred for life by truancy Michael
1:22:35
With respect. I mean, so, the thing, the basis of conversation was, and the way I took it, apologies
1:22:43
No, I'm only teasing you. I'm just saying it doesn't sound to me like you were scarred by truancy
1:22:49
When it came to the school, when it came to the school's response to this
1:22:53
I mean, the feeling I had when I was a kid was that they simply didn't care
1:22:59
They obviously had an obligation to report it to my parents or my parent at the time
1:23:04
but she was a junkie. She was an addict to various things
1:23:09
So there was just nothing. There was no one at either end that was able to or willing to kind of put any measures in place to stop me
1:23:20
That's the recurring theme, whether you end up in a library or whether you end up in youth custody
1:23:25
The recurring theme is the answer to this question. Don't get me wrong, I ended up in custody a couple of times as well
1:23:30
It was simply that, you know, on days when it's piddling down with rain, I don't necessarily want to be out on the street choring everything
1:23:37
I'd much rather be nice and cosy in the library reading. And no one cared
1:23:41
Yeah. No one. That's the theme. I cared. I know you care, but no one cared for you enough
1:23:53
The thing is... No one cared about you enough. And the part that's really frustrating is
1:23:59
and I've spoken to you previously about ADHD, I found out quite late in life
1:24:04
so I think I was aged 36, was diagnosed ADHD. And since then, you know, I've just improved
1:24:12
in productivity in lots of ways. it's my favourite subject at the moment
1:24:18
that you know on the show late life diagnoses of ADHD because it's as if you're having
1:24:23
your arm behind your back untied isn't it I think for real
1:24:27
I've spoke with you previously about it and used the term that it was like
1:24:33
being gifted a missing cog to the cog I love that but the frustrating thing is
1:24:39
I don't have any expectation that my parents you know would have picked up on it
1:24:43
Because who would have? This was back in the 90s. No, no, no, no, but your parents let you down in other ways
1:24:48
I hope you don't mind me saying that. Of course, yeah. It's, I want to say it's water under the bridge in many ways
1:24:55
but in other ways it's not that, you know. It's never. The body keeps the score, mate. What, do you ever, I mean, it may not be a healthy thing to do
1:25:02
do you ever wonder about the path not taken? Do you ever wonder about what your life would have been like
1:25:06
had you been in a functional household, not populated by drug addicts
1:25:10
And I think, well, I think when I've spoken about ADHD before
1:25:22
I've spoken about going through a kind of mourning phase for the person I could have been
1:25:27
for the person I'm not, but I could have been. And, you know, everyone's experience of that is obviously going to be unique
1:25:35
It's just mine wasn't only like, oh, I've gone through life being challenged by things
1:25:40
that, you know, most other people wouldn't find challenging. But also, and it didn't help that both parents
1:25:47
were not really present with kind of doing their own thing. And, you know, it's interesting that all three of you so far
1:25:53
have talked about that absent or detached parent in quite loving ways or in very forgiving ways
1:26:01
So there's not abuse here, there's just inadequacy. And that's a horrible word to use
1:26:05
but it's the best one I can think of in the circumstances. I guess Billy's stepfather wouldn't fit into that category
1:26:11
but his mum would. Just not able to be the parent that a child needs
1:26:16
And a child who has a parent who is not able or not willing
1:26:20
perhaps, to be the parent that a child needs, that child is going to be the one that is..
1:26:25
I mean, it's not exactly rocket science. That child is going to be the one most likely to skip school
1:26:29
I wonder what the percentages are. There's something that Sean said about waking up in the morning
1:26:34
and never thinking, oh, I don't want to go to work today. I wonder what the percentages are of children who wake up in the morning and think I really don't want to go to school today
1:26:42
And then thinking do you know what I don't have to Whereas most of us if we were to wake up in the morning and think I really don't want to have to go to school today
1:26:49
And then to realize well you haven't got any choice son You're going to school today
1:26:53
I managed to play Chewan a couple of times at a boarding school Which is an extraordinary achievement for which I think I deserve some sort of award perhaps a FIFA Peace Prize
1:27:02
Because I mean you're at school but you're playing Chewan while you're at school
1:27:06
hiding under a bed in your own room, whatever it may have been
1:27:11
But I don't know what the number is. I mean, did you wake up often
1:27:15
Did you wake up often thinking, I don't want to go to school today? When I was very young, I once made a bowl full of fake vomit
1:27:21
in the kitchen out of bits of bread, kiora, orange juice and milk
1:27:25
and mixed it all up in a bowl and threw it all over the bedroom floor and pretended to my mum that I'd been sick
1:27:29
because I found the idea of going to school awful, awful. Every morning you'd wake up, oh God, I've got to go to school
1:27:35
That's not normal. Most people don't wake up every morning thinking, oh, God, I've got to go to school
1:27:41
But if you haven't got an adult in your life who's going, sorry, mate, you do, then you won't
1:27:46
That's an easy bit of this conversation. Michael, thank you. 11.46 is the time
1:27:51
James O'Brien on LBC. It's 11.49. I mean, I don't know that we've nailed the white working class element of it
1:28:00
as in why white working class children are twice as likely to skip school
1:28:04
because, you know, having absent or incapable parents is not unique to the white working class
1:28:16
Of course it isn't. It's not unique to any ethnicity or any socioeconomic class
1:28:20
but we certainly know what it's like to be one of them as a consequence of the extraordinary calls that we've taken so far
1:28:25
And I think the answer sort of comes into focus, doesn't it, the more stories you listen to
1:28:31
Alison is in Tenerife. Alison, what would you like to say? Hi, Jane. Are you all right
1:28:36
I'm very well. Are you on holiday or are you an expat? I'm an expat. I'm an expat
1:28:42
Carry on. Yes. Okay. Well, obviously your topic applies to me 100%
1:28:48
Very similar to your previous callers. But I'm taking you back to 1975, actually
1:28:55
Okay. Between 1975 and 78, myself and two of my brothers, we never went to school
1:29:03
we were, well I say never we'd gone on odd occasions so they knew us
1:29:07
but in between we'd be paying cards at home mum and dad were both at work
1:29:12
did they know, did mum and dad know that you weren't at school? no, we had a wag woman used to come round
1:29:19
now and again that's the chairing officer, a wag woman I haven't heard that phrase at all
1:29:23
we called him the wag woman she'd come round now and again
1:29:27
mum would tell us off and we'd promise to go to school But not really
1:29:31
And that really was it, yeah. Not enough to double-check on everything and things like that
1:29:35
No, not at all. Yeah, make sure you go to school. And in fairness, again to your previous call, a similar thing
1:29:43
there was no interest in our education. They just wanted us to go to school
1:29:47
They weren't bad parents. Well, they were both at work, so it's not like they were opting out of their responsibilities
1:29:53
or anything like that. Absolutely, and they worked their whole lives, you know
1:29:58
obviously to keep the house. But at the time, the school didn't push it either. I don't know whether they do now
1:30:06
And if they had, maybe we would have gone. None of us three had an older brother
1:30:12
He did go to school. He went to a different school actually. He did very well in his exams. We never took any
1:30:20
And I think even my mum didn't know about that. When I got a report, I changed the C's to A's. Really
1:30:28
Ease to bees. You were like three little Beano characters, weren't you
1:30:34
Well, you know, but they didn't scrutinise it. And yet not through, I mean, was that because they didn't
1:30:41
I mean, it wasn't a big deal to them, education. It just wasn't, it wasn't that they didn't
1:30:46
they were being negligent or neglectful in any way. They just didn't have it writ large in their list of things
1:30:52
that they cared about for you. So getting food on the table, looking after you
1:30:56
making sure you had clothes to wear. Those things were important, but not actually getting educated
1:31:01
That's right. Yet also at the same time, the three of us that were diving
1:31:06
we also had Saturday jobs from about the age of 13. Yeah, there it is
1:31:10
So it's just a strange one. And we all did okay once we started working life
1:31:17
We got, I believe, good work ethic. But you also mentioned, like, white working class. Yes
1:31:24
Because I also do remember, I had many Asian friends, and none of them took time off school
1:31:31
Their parents would have... Well, that's the crucial difference, isn't it? That is a big difference
1:31:37
The immigrant experience often involves making even more of the opportunities that you've got in the new country than the people who were born here
1:31:45
That's right, absolutely. Well, and in fact, I probably should have called you an immigrant a minute ago
1:31:49
A few people are crossing me for calling you an expat, so I'm happy to clarify. It depends, doesn't it, which way you're looking through the telescope
1:31:55
That's right. And I'm still working. Are you? So, yeah, yeah. And do you ever think..
1:32:00
I keep moving ahead. Do you ever think about the path not taken? Because, I mean, I don't know if you heard the first hour
1:32:06
when we were sort of talking about... I did, yeah. ...the fundamental value of education as opposed to the cost
1:32:11
and the idea of it opening up horizons and showing you opportunities that you wouldn't have found otherwise
1:32:17
Do you ever think about that? Do you ever wonder what might have been different if you'd gone to school more
1:32:22
Well, one of the things that comes to mind is I perhaps didn't realise I was capable of applying myself and getting results until I went to work
1:32:34
I was sent on a couple of courses and I thought, oh, hey, it's not so bad, I can do this. I'm quite good at this. So you've got a sense of fulfilment and achievement that you wouldn't have got from school
1:32:42
That's right. But also, my path was I did very well through promotion and application rather than qualifications
1:32:53
But one thing that I would so, so advise, and I don't know what it's like now
1:32:58
but coming through the ranks of schooling and early work to those people that find they can't take jobs
1:33:05
I hear through friends that many youngsters don't want to go into a factory, not that there's that many left. No
1:33:11
or the stores and that. Please, they should do it just to get the social experience of teamwork
1:33:18
that they'll get nowhere else. That's so well put. Even if it's not the job of your dreams
1:33:25
and even if there's bits of it that you hate, just do it for a while because you'll be absorbing skills and lessons
1:33:30
that you can't actually get anywhere else. It's one of the big takeaways from our neat conversations
1:33:34
when we talk about young people not in education, employment or training. There was a dad a couple of weeks ago
1:33:39
who said something that I think some expert came out with the next day
1:33:43
in the papers, just about, just get in there and get some experience and it will grow
1:33:47
Not for everybody, but it can't. It can't possibly do any harm. It's brilliantly put
1:33:52
And of course, as we've discovered, I like that ogy about the... I mean, you say historically, don't you
1:33:56
A square peg in a round hole, but I preferred conjuring up the image of those toys that we all had as kids
1:34:01
when you're trying to fit the star through the star hole. The star won't fit through the circle hole or the square hole
1:34:06
and yet our education system can still feel a bit cookie cutter at times. Alison, what a lovely call. Thank you
1:34:11
11.55 is the time. From Tenerife to Medway in Kent. Bryony is there. Bryony, what would you like to say
1:34:17
Hiya, James. Hello, Bryony. I'm a first-time caller, so I'm a bit nervous. It's only me. It's only me
1:34:23
Go on, what's on your mind? Right, so basically, I had quite a turbulent upbringing
1:34:30
I really loved primary school. Primary school was brilliant for me. I went to a really good primary school
1:34:36
Shout out to Morehill Cops. Well done. I then went, as soon as I started secondary school
1:34:43
it was like, it completely turned my world upside down. My dad also moved to Wales, so that was pretty hard
1:34:51
But I just started not going to school. Because we'd walk through the park to school, me and my sister
1:34:57
and I'd just meet a crowd of people. We'd go in the woods and we'd stay there all day
1:35:01
and then we'd go back home. And mum didn't know? She did know
1:35:06
She did know, but it wasn't until kind of probably my second year at secondary school
1:35:10
and it started to become more of a problem. Right. But the school, they didn't do very much
1:35:15
I mean, we're talking 2004. Okay. So, not that long ago, but, you know, kids were just kind of left, you know
1:35:22
they're more focused on the kids that wanted to kind of learn. And, of course, if you're in the classroom, potentially you're disrupting it
1:35:28
and you're causing trouble for those kids that want to learn and therefore for the teacher
1:35:32
That's the thing with me. I never really... I was never really naughty at school. Okay
1:35:35
I was quite a good kid, but I really struggled kind of..
1:35:41
Why do you think that was? Why do you think that was? So I'm one of six, and I was the youngest
1:35:45
Right. So I was used to a lot of older siblings. Yeah. So when I then went to my school, we had one of the worst year groups they'd seen in 20 years, apparently
1:35:53
Right. And it was so disruptive. I mean, some of the kids were, you know, they were really, really naughty
1:35:59
and I just couldn't settle there and I couldn't... Oh, so this is the opposite
1:36:04
This is the opposite of what people would presume in a way you were skipping school for a more peaceful life
1:36:09
Yeah. So when I finished kind of... So in the end, I got kicked out of school when I was 13
1:36:17
My mum then didn't know what to do with me, so she moved me to Wales to live with my dad pretty much
1:36:22
And then I was kind of home educated for about two years, kind of doing my own thing
1:36:26
Nothing really, not like sitting down doing maths every day or English, nothing like that. It was kind of interest-led
1:36:30
Okay. Which really, really suited me and I loved it and I learnt so much. Okay. And then
1:36:35
I got offered a place at one of the top sports academies in
1:36:40
Wales. Are you very good at sport? I was very good at sport as a kid, yeah. Right
1:36:46
And that was always my focus when I was at secondary school as well. I'd always go in on PE
1:36:50
day because that was that much thing. You know, and I still love
1:36:54
sports to this day, but yeah, so I went to one of the top sports academies
1:36:58
and I was there for a year, and I got into drugs. Again, the kids were a lot older than me
1:37:04
I was only 15 at the time, but these kids were like 18, 19. And I fell into drugs and got kicked out
1:37:10
And I still look back to that day, and I just think, oh, if only I'd done so much better there
1:37:16
I could have gone on to do better things. But actually, I then moved back to Kent
1:37:21
and I started working as a cleaner in Tesco. Okay And then I really like what the last lady said about you know just getting experience from kind of work that handed to you Because when I started working as a cleaner there was a manager in Tesco and she kind of saw me
1:37:36
She kind of saw, you know, that I wasn't, I needed something more
1:37:41
So she actually gave me a job at Tesco, and I worked for Tesco for 10 years
1:37:45
And, you know, the people that I met and the stuff that I did, it kind of gave me a lot of experience
1:37:49
and then from there I then started doing care in the community
1:37:55
and that was just, I should have done that from that was just everything. That suited you. Yeah absolutely
1:38:03
and I still do it to this day so yeah. Do you have children of your own
1:38:07
I do so I had children at 27 and it was kind of when I had them that I decided that I really wanted to go back to education
1:38:14
so actually at the moment I'm studying at Rochester Adult Medway Education Centre
1:38:22
and I'm doing my GCSE maths. Fantastic. And I suspect that if you were to suspect
1:38:29
that your children were skipping school, you'd have something to say about it. Yeah, but, you know, I'd ask them a kind of..
1:38:36
Square peg round hole question as well, isn't there? It's good, that. It's actually thoughtful
1:38:41
There's always a reason. Usually, yeah. Well, no, of course there's always a reason
1:38:45
You're absolutely right. That's something everyone's learnt this hour. But, of course, the Victorian idea that everyone has to be exactly..
1:38:52
I always think of people getting into trouble for being left-handed when I think of that square peg round hole thing
1:38:57
or what you just said, there's always a reason. Children are not going to school
1:39:00
Help them go to school or help them find a way to get an education that doesn't necessarily involve doing the thing that they can't or won't do
1:39:07
Some echoes of the first hour, albeit that that was about university education
1:39:12
But the theme, of course, is education. The Latin, and I know this because my parents spent a fortune on my education, the Latin educate, it means to lead out, to lead out
1:39:24
So you're sort of leading out things you didn't know you had inside you or you're being led towards
1:39:28
It's a wonderful way of thinking about it. And if you don't have it, then there's all these undiscovered destinations that you're never going to visit
1:39:35
And all of our callers today, happily, have ended up visiting places that they could have been prevented from getting to by dint of their absence, if you like, from education
1:39:46
What an amazing bunch of calls. That's an incredible hour. I'm just sort of honoured, really, to just sit here and listen
1:39:51
James O'Brien on LBC. It's four minutes after 12, and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:39:59
I've got a new feature for you. It's called Unhinged Event. it's a bit like unhinged headline
1:40:04
but it's an event, not a headline which means that we won't have the
1:40:08
production ready, so what we'll do we'll play the unhinged headline bit
1:40:12
and then Keith will turn the volume down on headline and I'll go, event should we practice that Keith at some point do you think
1:40:18
before we actually do it or should we just wade straight in there and do it, and I've finally found
1:40:23
on a similar theme I have finally found the biggest victim of Brexit
1:40:29
and it's taken a while there were a lot of contenders but we can now say with some confidence
1:40:38
that we have now found the person who has suffered the most as a direct consequence of Brexit
1:40:44
and I wonder if you can guess who it is and I wonder whether I will remember to tell you
1:40:50
before the end of the programme but we turn our attention next
1:40:53
to a much, much, much lighter conversation of that you can be sure
1:40:58
And it's one that we almost had last week, and I can't really remember why we didn't
1:41:01
I think we were rather overtaken by events. I wasn't. I didn't do favourite bus route, even though Eleanor was on holiday
1:41:09
I just didn't quite. I think she's robbed the joy from my life when it comes to doing a phone-in on favourite bus routes
1:41:15
Before I retire, favourite bus routes. Just give me a ring and tell me your favourite bus route
1:41:20
What's not to like about that? But I tell you the sea of incomprehensive
1:41:26
uncomprehending disapproval. We didn't do it. We kind of did it, but we didn't do it
1:41:32
You made me combine it with something else, about days out. And one day we'll just do the best..
1:41:38
Because then everyone rings in to say, oh, I really liked a bliseau. No one rings in to say
1:41:42
oh, the number 36 from Stourbridge to Whitley Court, that's a beautiful bus, right
1:41:48
So you have to do it. The phoning about the best days out was rather nice
1:41:52
because there was a heatwave at the time and stuff, if you weren't listening, and there was lots of stuff that you wouldn't necessarily know about, things to do
1:41:58
but it was a way of robbing me of the opportunity to actually do your favourite bus route
1:42:03
You can't do anything else. We took one of the best calls of the year, actually
1:42:07
from the bloke whose dad used to tell them they were going to France, and he'd take them to the Isle of Sheppey, I think
1:42:11
on a bus and then a little ferry. And they'd get there and think that they were in France
1:42:15
years before they found out that they weren't in France at all. But I digress
1:42:19
We didn't do favourite bus routes. And nor did we do a conversation inspired by the actress Rosamund Pike
1:42:26
who, from the stage, called out an audience member for using their phone
1:42:31
I found it remarkable when I read the story that they were actually texting
1:42:37
during an emotional moment in the performance. Not a... a curtain call
1:42:46
It was during the curtain call that she called out the member of the audience
1:42:50
And to her credit, she said, I'm not going to identify you directly because you know who you are
1:42:55
And maybe you were a doctor who was being asked for really important advice about a crucial operation
1:42:59
But it was a really emotional part of the play. Now, I mean, there are things that spring to mind
1:43:06
I'm a great, this will sound weird to you. I haven't told you this for ages. I remember once seeing a bloke in the middle of road rage
1:43:12
and oddly I was in the car with Mrs O'Brien at the time
1:43:16
and the road rage was directed at the car in front of us and it could have been us
1:43:21
you know if it had happened 30 seconds later he'd have been effing and jeffing at us
1:43:24
and jumping up and down you know when someone just loses the plot entirely
1:43:28
like burst blood vessel kind of territory and I hope it wasn't in a holier than thou kind of way
1:43:35
we were talking about him and about it and expressing a degree of concern
1:43:40
about whether the traffic was ever going to get going again and I said to my wife
1:43:43
I said you don't know what's happened to him this morning I'd never had that thought before
1:43:49
and I can't get rid of it now so if I see someone doing something
1:43:54
that I think is really bad particularly when it comes to temper and anger
1:44:00
there was a bloke yesterday I was in Brentford there was a bloke in the phone box
1:44:06
he still got a phone box in Brentford outside Greggs and he appeared to be on the phone
1:44:10
actually using a phone in a phone box. But he was going tonto, and he was hitting the receiver on top of it
1:44:16
and shouting down the phone. And again, I just found myself... My initial reaction is visceral
1:44:21
It's fight or flight. So it's disapproval. It's a kind of danger, danger
1:44:26
danger bad, danger bad. But then this thing kicks in now where I find myself thinking
1:44:31
what happened this morning? Because I don't know when the last time you lost your temper was
1:44:35
but I bet when you last lost your temper, it happened in circumstances
1:44:39
the thing that triggered you could have happened in other circumstances and you wouldn't have lost your temper
1:44:45
So if you were really stressed already or you were really tired, or possibly you were really hung over
1:44:50
which is kind of sometimes a combination of being stressed and tired, or your husband had left you that morning This is what I was thinking about the bloke having road rage I was thinking maybe his wife left him this morning You don know what happened So there a little bit of me that thinks that this parent this person in the audience that Rosamund Pikes played
1:45:08
may have been a parent with a very anxious child who was at home having a panic attack
1:45:14
and so they're desperately texting and it's easier to text from your seat than it is to get out of this
1:45:18
So there is a danger when you're a radio phone-in host of introducing too much nuance, compassion and concern
1:45:24
into every conversation that you end up with nothing to talk about. Happily, there's a story in the newspaper today
1:45:31
that contains details that I think insulates against any fears of being insensitive or unkind
1:45:38
It happened at the Royal Shakespeare Company, and it happened in a theatre that I know quite well
1:45:43
in the big theatre, the memorial theatre at the Royal Shakespeare Company, and it concerns a mother who took her baby to see The Tempest
1:45:54
a baby. I feel like, to continue the theatrical theme, I feel like Lady Bracknell in The
1:46:00
Importance of Being Earnest, but instead of a handbag, it's a baby. A baby
1:46:04
A baby? A handbag? And I go to the theatre a lot
1:46:10
and I ain't never seen no baby in no theatre. Like, literally never
1:46:16
It gets worse, as you possibly would expect. One audience member told the Daily Mail
1:46:22
I've been going to the theatre monthly, I don't know why I'm doing an accent that goes against all of my I've been going to the theatre monthly for over 30 years
1:46:28
and I've never seen anything like it there was a young woman with a baby in the audience and it
1:46:33
mithered which suggests this woman was northern so I was quite right not to do a a rude stereotype
1:46:40
middle class um accent it mithered all the way through the first act thank goodness there was
1:46:45
never any actual screaming or crying but it was gurgling and cooing and chirping very loudly
1:46:50
throughout. It never let up. They were sitting in the highest tier. So that, I know that
1:46:57
theatre. That is, that, that, it's the gods, we used to call it. Do we still call it the
1:47:01
gods, Keith? We used to call it the gods right up in the sky. And it's steep as well. I
1:47:05
remember going there as quite a young boy. And, um, not only was I worried about nosebleeds
1:47:10
I was worried about falling. It's a really steep bank. I don't know if it's still like
1:47:14
that, because it's a long time. I don't sit up there anymore, old boy. I sit down in the
1:47:18
stalls or the royal circle but back in the day when i'd go on my own to the theater in stratford
1:47:23
as a as a school boy um it was a nice little deal five quid i think there was one seat that was all
1:47:29
on its own and it had a sort of weird little box in front of it that you could put your program on and halfway through the play you could put your feet on it as well but anyway so i know
1:47:37
exactly where they were sitting um but it's the the acoustics in the theater are great as she says
1:47:43
it's a very compact theater so everyone in the room could hear it no doubt including sir kenneth
1:47:47
and the rest of the cast. So this is a reference to Sir Kenneth Branagh
1:47:53
who is playing Prospero in the Royal Shakespeare Company's new production of The Tempest
1:47:57
Be not afeard, the aisle is full of noises. Literally. Except that would be aisle spelled A-I-S-L-E, wouldn't it
1:48:04
If you've got a baby gurgling in the theatre, as opposed to aisle, which is what Shakespeare wrote, I-S-L-E
1:48:10
Sounds and sweet airs that give delight and hurt not. and what I love about this story
1:48:18
there's two dimensions to it this is the first there were queues of people lining up to complain
1:48:24
at the ticket desks during the intermission even the ushers were being barracked
1:48:29
about it because what that paints is a picture of a scenario wherein
1:48:34
everybody knew that it was wrong except the mum because there's another bit coming to this story
1:48:40
everybody knew that this was out of order except the mum. And now we come to the mum
1:48:47
because, as Sian Morgan told the Daily Mail, but then, amazingly, I saw the woman herself
1:48:54
and she was completely unapologetic. All right, close your eyes. Not if you're driving
1:49:02
Picture her now. Is this bad? Am I being bad, Eleanor? Is this bad
1:49:07
Close your eyes. Picture the mum. So the entire theatre, I exaggerate, but only a bit
1:49:13
The entire theatre is complaining about the fact that she took a noisy baby into a theatre, into a play
1:49:22
Close your eyes and picture her now. Who do you see? Actually, text me if you see a real person
1:49:30
Text me. Who do you see? Because the witness goes on, she was a bohemian middle-class type
1:49:37
accompanied by an older woman who I think must have been her mother and she seemed to think that everyone else
1:49:42
was being unreasonable in asking her not to come back in. It's even got a celebrity angle
1:49:49
David Blunkett was there. Lord Blunkett was in the auditorium, and Lord Blunkett, being blind
1:49:54
would presumably be even more sensitive to the auditory interference than everybody else would
1:49:59
I think that's true, but who knows? He says himself. I said to the person sitting next to me
1:50:05
I'm very tolerant, but I'm not sure the baby is getting anything out of this
1:50:09
Which is a beautifully put little aperçu from Lord Blunkett. Apparently the guidance is that babies
1:50:18
can be admitted to all performances, but if the child is disturbing others
1:50:21
an adult may need to watch the show from the screen outside of the auditorium with the baby
1:50:26
So there are three elements to this story that I love. Neil saw Jacob Rees-Mogg in a wig
1:50:34
That's not fair on Jacob Rees-Mogg. I think that he's politically fairly hideous
1:50:39
but he's extraordinarily well-mannered, you know. in a way that the Victorians often use to describe
1:50:45
to disguise moral turpitude. His P's and Q's and his table manners would be absolutely impeccable
1:50:50
There's no way that Jacob Rees-Mogg would cause a disturbance in a theatre, albeit that he's possessed of epic senses of entitlement
1:50:57
They can sometimes go hand-in-hand with etiquette. Cammy Badenow's getting a lot of votes, as is Nadine Dorries
1:51:02
But anyway, I don't know whether that's fair or not, and it's probably not even a game we should have played
1:51:06
But it's too late now, so I'll keep reading out your answers. That's the bit there
1:51:12
I saw the woman herself and she was completely unapologetic. There are two elements to this that I think are really interesting, right
1:51:24
I can only think of two occasions in my life when I have tried..
1:51:32
Well, one of them, she wasn't even misbehaving. She was just ruining my enjoyment of a show
1:51:38
I've told you about that before, I think, but not for a while. And then we went to see Hamilton a couple of years ago for the second or third time
1:51:45
It's a real family favorite for us, as you can tell, because I sometimes drop Hamilton quotes into our conversation uncredited
1:51:53
So we were in the room where it happens, and we were watching the play, and the family that were both behind us and next to us were behaving..
1:52:00
I mean, I'd like to say they were behaving as if they were at the cinema, but, I mean, it would have been annoying in the cinema
1:52:06
They were behaving as if they were at a soft play facility. About eight people, so probably two branches of the same family, the younger children were
1:52:17
climbing on things. They were climbing over their other family members, they were climbing over chairs, they
1:52:22
were swapping places they were eating noisily but that the risk you take these days If it like you know things that you can buy in the theatre that there was a teenager there the slightly older child who was on her phone for the entire duration and and after
1:52:35
they'd all swapped seats for the 14th time i ended up sitting next to her and i thought i'm never
1:52:39
going to tell it i'm never going to tell a teenager off um especially not a teenage girl um so i'll
1:52:46
have a word with the parents and i said do you think you could keep the noise down i'm finding
1:52:51
it very hard to concentrate on the play. And they sort of, like, whispers, and it starts up again after ten minutes
1:52:57
and I just think, oh, forget it. I had to sell a kidney to buy those tickets, but what can you do
1:53:01
I'm not one of those people. Does it ever even work? If you were to shame someone into..
1:53:08
I mean, you've got eight people, and they're all... Even the parents are joining in. Well, what can you do in those sort of scenarios
1:53:15
I don't think there's anything you can do. and then you have the question of what else you've witnessed so my daughters went together to a
1:53:29
theatre to see an Agatha Christie production and they came home and they've been to the theatre
1:53:34
quite a lot over the years my girls so they kind of had an idea that this was a little bit out of
1:53:39
the ordinary but they just wanted to double check with dad so the people in the row in front of them
1:53:44
had brought in what I believe is known as a family bucket
1:53:49
from Kentucky Fried Chicken. Now, a burger would be bad, right, in a theatre
1:53:54
but not unheard of. I'm thinking of parallels with the cinema. A burger you could just about understand
1:53:59
but nothing that involves bones. If you're in a theatre, and a cinema to a certain extent
1:54:05
but bones... So the people in the row in front were eating chicken, but eating, like, drumsticks in a theatre
1:54:13
And they were like, We didn't know what to do. I mean, you can't... I'm amazed they got it past the ushers
1:54:19
but I presume if you're listening and you are an usher or an usher, right, I presume that you wouldn't have noticed
1:54:26
You wouldn't let someone into the auditorium with a bucket of chicken, would you? Wings, which are particularly fiddly
1:54:32
Drumsticks. Maybe the odd little fillet, a bit of popcorn chicken. I mean, it's delicious, don't get me wrong
1:54:37
but in a theatre, it's the finger-licking bit as well. It's even in the advertising slogan
1:54:42
And you do not want to be sitting in a theatre within hearing distance of somebody licking their fingers to suck all the chicken juices off them
1:54:51
What would I have done if I'd been there? I don't know. Probably nothing
1:54:55
You're either built that way or you're not built that way. So, and then I started talking to younger colleagues this morning, and they're all anti-baby
1:55:04
All of my younger colleagues who don't have children yet are quite anti-baby. So I'm saying, obviously you can't take a baby into the theatre
1:55:11
and they're saying, well, I don't think you should take them to restaurants either. I say, what? Well, where are you going to eat
1:55:16
If you can't take your baby into a... Well, it's all right if they're quiet, but if they start making some noise
1:55:20
if they start screaming, you should pick the baby up and take it outside. I think that's probably true
1:55:25
But the thing about being a parent is that you think you're going to be able to stop them from screaming any minute now
1:55:30
So you don't want to get... Also, your food's going to go... So I don't know. The baby's in a theatre
1:55:35
I don't think anyone's going to defend that, right? 0345 6060 973
1:55:39
I don't want to sound too bossy but I want like bucket of chicken type stories
1:55:46
I don't want oh they were really noisy or they were looking at their phone type stories
1:55:50
I mean like you're in a theatre an auditorium a theatre or a cinema
1:55:55
maybe a concert somewhere where it's a live audience and you can't quite
1:56:00
believe what somebody else thinks is acceptable so first of all how do you complain
1:56:08
Have you done it? Are you one of the people that can... Can you do it nicely? I've always worked upon the presumption
1:56:15
that somebody who is behaving in that way has already made a sort of social contract
1:56:18
that they don't care. Or, if I'd said to that person, maybe they'd never been to the theatre before
1:56:24
and I said to that person, you know, it's really not on to be eating chicken wings in a theatre
1:56:30
and they'd be mortified, so you have to be... So I come on the presumption
1:56:34
that they know they're being obnoxious, therefore there's no point complaining because they will respond obnoxiously to my complaint
1:56:40
This woman in the theatre with her baby sounds as if, if the eyewitness is to be believed
1:56:45
sounds as if she did kind of behave in a way that was slightly obnoxious
1:56:51
If you've got massive cues of people complaining about the fact you've taken your baby into the theatre
1:56:56
then it takes something quite special to think that they're all wrong and you're right
1:57:01
So how do you do the complaining about other people's behaviour and what is the behaviour that you have witnessed
1:57:08
that is bucket of chicken territory? Not Rosamund Pike, put your phone away territory
1:57:14
that's bad enough, but actual buckets of chicken territory, all right? In a live audience
1:57:20
I think cinema is slightly different from theatre because, spoiler alert, you can't actually distract the actors
1:57:25
that you're watching in the cinema in the way that you can when you're in a theatre and as this eyewitness points out
1:57:30
Sir Kenneth himself could probably hear the baby gurgling and the baby burbling
1:57:36
So how do you do the complaining? 0345 6060 973. How do you do the complaining
1:57:45
And what is the maddest thing that you have witnessed and possibly wanted to complain about
1:57:51
All right. I told you it was a bit lighter hearted than the other topics that we're discussing at the moment
1:57:56
0345 6060 973 is the number that you need. Also, you're quite right, Kate
1:58:03
There was a redundant yet in that comment when I said my colleagues haven't got children yet
1:58:07
There's a presumption of what you might call a breed-up mentality. They may never want to have children
1:58:12
And then I found myself wondering, how old do your kids have to get before you become them again
1:58:17
So when your children are young and they make noise in a restaurant, and you think, oh, I'll just give them a little bit of a cuddle, and then they'll stop crying
1:58:23
So I'm not going to take them outside because my starter's just arrived and it might go cold. So you're one of those bad parents who is disturbing everybody else's dinner by having your child with you
1:58:31
But then your child grows up, your children grow up and they leave home, and you're in a restaurant and someone else's baby starts crying
1:58:37
and you think, I've got that kid out of here now. So you go full circle. I don't know what age they have to be before that starts to kick back in again
1:58:44
but that's not necessarily the question that I'm asking today. 23 minutes after 12, that's the longest introduction of the day, right
1:58:52
On by far the least important topic. It's almost as if this stuff is..
1:58:56
All right, I'll just stop then. James O'Brien on LBC. If I get a chicken in a theatre in London
1:59:03
I think may have been just evidence that those people had never been to the theatre before
1:59:07
because I don't know. But I do know that sometimes people do things
1:59:11
and you cannot believe your eyes. But what I don't know is how you complain about it effectively
1:59:16
or efficiently. So live audiences, unbelievable behaviour, the art of complaining. Julie is in Sheffield
1:59:24
Julie, what have you got? Oh, hello, James. It was just a couple of years ago
1:59:28
and we were at the pictures in Sheffield and there was a mum in front of us with three young children
1:59:34
It was a youth. They were entitled to be there. Yes, of course
1:59:37
But we didn't know them. And then partway through she turned round
1:59:42
and asked me if I'd take her little boy to the loo
1:59:45
Pardon? To the toilet? Yeah. It was about four or five and I just said, okay
1:59:53
And I took him, he came with me, but I kept saying to people like on room
1:59:59
I don't know him, but his mum has asked me if I bring him, because she's got two other children
2:00:06
And I didn't complain, obviously. Well, I didn't complain, but I felt, well, actually, afterwards, I really wanted to see that film as well
2:00:14
Yeah. What was it? I thought, oh, do you know, it would be something like, because my husband quite like kiddies
2:00:20
It would be a toy story. Oh, lovely. Yeah, of course. Yeah, something like that
2:00:24
Maybe a Pixar. A U. Yeah. But I felt, yeah. You couldn't say no
2:00:29
afterwards it put me under a bit of pressure taking a child I didn't know to the toilet
2:00:34
Well of course it does, I mean there's safeguarding issues as well. Yeah. Although it was sort of, I mean part of me thinks well that's nice in a way that
2:00:42
it's a reminder of when the world was a much more trusting and less suspicious place. But
2:00:46
another part of me is thinking I wonder if you missed a good bit. Yeah that's true
2:00:51
Did you pause? That's why I can never remember part of that film. Did you pause and process it? Did you pause and go
2:00:58
well, this is extremely strange, but I can't say no. Or did you just sort of go, oh, yeah, all right
2:01:03
No, I saw that he really wanted to go because he was in front of me
2:01:06
You know how little boys do? They clutch the pants, don't they, when they want to go. And I was looking, I'm thinking, oh, he's had all that coke
2:01:13
But I didn't expect her to turn around and ask me to take him
2:01:17
And that's why I just said, okay. And off you went. And off we went
2:01:22
And did you talk to him? I just kept saying really loudly
2:01:25
I think more so that other people could hear. We're going back to your mummy
2:01:29
We're going back to your mummy when we've been to the room. We may have an early winner here
2:01:33
I mean, I don't even know if that's not obnoxious or anything, really. It's just completely out of the ordinary, isn't it
2:01:38
No, not bad behaviour, and I wouldn't complain. No, I can tell, because she's got no choice
2:01:42
She can't leave the other two children on their own. No. Well, I never..
2:01:49
Well, there you go. Well, at least she didn't ask me to take all three. because it was a mixture of boys and girls
2:01:53
If you got back and she'd said, right, it'd be like a relay. It's time for the next one now
2:01:58
Off you go, off your trot. You've made your bell. Oh, I love that, Julie. Thank you
2:02:01
28 minutes after 12 is the time. And it gives you, you know
2:02:05
how many times have you been at the theatre, or actually the cinema, more likely
2:02:10
with a mum or a dad who's got multiple young children with them
2:02:14
Never once have I thought, I don't remember ever having to do that myself
2:02:18
And if I took two children, just two, not even three, and one of them needs to do and you don't want to leave the other one on their own
2:02:23
I suppose it depends how old they are. But that's extraordinary. 0345 6060973 is the number you need if you want to join in
2:02:31
The conversation, if you are wondering, is inspired by something which we could have had a Mrs Merton-style heated debate about it
2:02:38
but I just can't imagine anybody defending somebody, taking a baby to the theatre and continuing to insist
2:02:45
that they haven't done anything wrong or out of the ordinary when cues were forming of people trying to complain
2:02:51
gurgling and cooing and chirping very loudly throughout the entire performance, which I suppose if you were watching Chitty Chitty Bang Bang wouldn't matter so much
2:02:58
but if you're watching The Tempest, it's suboptimal, isn't it? The time now is half past twelve, and Matt Hewitt has your headline
2:03:06
James O'Brien on LBC. ...scenes reaching us from Belfast. Northern Ireland knows better than anywhere the dangers of trying to blame an entire community
2:03:17
or an entire group of people for the actions of an individual. But as I predicted would happen, it's happening anyway
2:03:25
Attempts to turn the hideous actions of one individual into some wider, broader point about everybody with the same skin colour
2:03:34
or everybody with the same country of origin are well underway and gathering pace
2:03:40
I would just briefly remind you that when Sarah Everard was murdered by a white-serving police officer
2:03:46
Nigel Farage insisted that you shouldn't blame men or police officers. I think I'll say that again
2:03:54
When Sarah Everard was murdered by a white-serving police officer, Nigel Farage insisted that you shouldn't blame all men
2:04:00
or indeed all police shouldn't make any conclusions about anybody except the person that did it
2:04:05
And he was right on that occasion, albeit it subsequently emerged that her killer's misogyny
2:04:11
was fairly well documented and recognised by colleagues who perhaps could have done something about it
2:04:16
But just try and think of humanity as a homogenous force. and when a human is killed in any circumstances, it's a tragedy
2:04:24
And the person responsible is the killer. So it's an increasingly unfashionable position to adopt
2:04:30
but for the millionth time in the last few years, no pleasure whatsoever in seeing one's predictions entirely come true
2:04:39
1234 is the time. I got a couple of things to play to you
2:04:47
including the reception that Donald Trump received when he turned up for a basketball game overnight
2:04:55
and indeed a brilliant, powerful, I don't know what you want to call it
2:05:02
intervention from the journalist that I was telling you about, Scott Pelley, who has been fired from 60 Minutes
2:05:09
and subsequently claimed that he was being told to inject bias into news reports
2:05:17
What's mad about that is CBS is owned by one of the Ellisons
2:05:21
And when Donald Trump was abusing that female journalist a couple of days ago
2:05:27
he included CBS in the list of things that are fake news
2:05:30
So even when you're sacking journalists essentially for refusing to be biased
2:05:35
you're still going to get it in the neck from Donald Trump. Because until it is a bit like 1940s Germany, not 1930s Germany
2:05:41
until every media outlet, until it's like North Korea, and you're just simply not allowed to question him
2:05:47
never mind criticizing him, then you're going to have problems. So I'll play it to you in this order
2:05:53
Here is Donald Trump talking about Scott Pelley. I think Scott Pelley's got his own problems
2:05:59
He's terrible. Look, Scott Pelley's a stiff and he's afraid. And he's part of this, you know
2:06:04
gang of crooked, stupid people that don't care about our country. And here is Scott Pelley talking
2:06:11
among other things, about Donald Trump. I've never worn the uniform, but I've been in combat for this country
2:06:22
in Afghanistan and Iraq, Kuwait, been shot at, spent nights in foxholes
2:06:34
filling up with water in the desert. I'm not aware that the president of the United States has ever done any of those things for
2:06:46
his country. Please correct me if I wrong You become a journalist because you love the First Amendment You become a journalist because you love the country
2:07:02
And while all the other descriptions that the president used about me might be applicable
2:07:10
not that one. there is no democracy without journalism
2:07:24
it can't be done and that is why i am a journalist
2:07:35
that i think will stand the test of time that testimony from
2:07:40
Scott Pelley talking there to Lulu Garcia Navarro of the New York Times about not the end of his own career, which is, well, his career isn't over, but his time at 60 Minutes is for the foreseeable future, but talking about the death of democracy
2:07:56
It's a favorite subject of mine. You can't make informed opinions without information
2:08:01
You can't make informed opinions without proper journalism. Look at the way lies took hold last week about Henry Novak's hideous murder
2:08:08
and this ludicrous notion of anti-white prejudice in the police. And the people who enforce that aren't journalists
2:08:16
I don't know what they are, stenographers, propagandists. The journalists will tell you what the judge said
2:08:21
The journalists will tell you what the family said. The journalists will tell you what the prosecuting lawyer said in court
2:08:26
The journalists will tell you what the pathologist said. I don't know what word to use to describe the people that will tell you things other than that
2:08:34
who will amplify the words of Nigel Farage instead of the words of the trial judge
2:08:38
but they're not journalists. They're not journalists. Scott Pelley is a journalist
2:08:44
And I'm going to play that again, actually, because I really think that you need to be
2:08:49
we all need to be reminded sometimes of what the job of a journalist actually is
2:08:55
Harder to forget in this country in recent years than in the United States of America, I think
2:09:00
because how many times have I used the word client journalist? I'm afraid that I realise now, listening to Scott Pelley
2:09:06
one of those words is redundant. That's why my father became a journalist, my late father
2:09:11
I'd like to say that it's why I became one, but I think that would be both pompous and self-serving
2:09:16
I don't think I did. I think I became a journalist because I thought it would be a really cool life
2:09:22
a really cool job. But I listen to people like Scott Pelley today and I'm very, very glad that I did
2:09:28
I've never worn the uniform. But I've been in combat for this country
2:09:36
in Afghanistan and Iraq, Kuwait, been shot at, spent nights in foxholes
2:09:46
filling up with water in the desert. i'm not aware that the president of the united states has ever done
2:09:57
any of those things for his country please correct me if i'm wrong
2:10:01
you become a journalist because you love the first amendment you become a journalist because you love the country
2:10:13
And while all the other descriptions that the president used about me might be applicable, not that one
2:10:30
There is no democracy without journalism. It can't be done
2:10:40
and that is why i am a journalist it's 20 to 1 you're listening to james o'brien on lbc let me
2:10:50
give you an example of what scott pelly is talking about okay here is a brief clip of events at
2:10:59
madison square gardens for a very important basketball game and here is a clip of the crowd
2:11:07
greeting the president. And here's how it gets described by the president
2:11:44
in a world where the journalists have been silenced, have been removed
2:11:50
have gone to the place that Scott Pelley was alluding to. You just heard rafter rattling booing in Madison Square Gardens
2:12:01
And this is the official version of events that without journalists would go unchallenged
2:12:06
I thought it was great. I mean, I thought it was amazing, actually
2:12:10
You mean when they had the camera on me? I thought it was very good, yeah. It was certainly amazing
2:12:16
It was, I think, mostly cheers. It was loud and it was very enthusiastic
2:12:24
So that's what he's talking about. I had those clips prepared for you. I hadn't realised they were related, actually
2:12:30
Because you talk about North Korea or you talk about 1940s Germany, 1930s Germany
2:12:36
that's what happens when you don't have journalism, and that Donald Trump can be booed to the rafters
2:12:42
and the next day's papers will say that he was cheered. I think that the, I can't remember which paper it was
2:12:48
but when he stormed out of an interview the other day, and inappropriately touched the female journalist on the way out
2:12:55
it gets written up somewhere as the events that happened in the interview
2:13:00
rather than he stormed out when he was asked to provide evidence of election fraud
2:13:03
He stormed out when he was asked to provide evidence of election fraud, because there isn't any. I played you that clip yesterday. But that's what Scott Pelley is talking about. An entire stadium of people can boo a man to the rafters, but the official version of events in the absence of journalism is that he was cheered to the high heavens
2:13:24
an election can unfold in entirely ordinary and normal ways but in the absence of decent journalism
2:13:32
the man who lost can lie about it being rigged and stolen and it will become the official narrative
2:13:38
it will become the official version of events a mob of violent people with blood on their minds and the name of a vice president on their lips can march upon the Capitol at the behest of that man who lost that election
2:13:53
And they can strike terror into the guardians of democracy who both work there as politicians and work there as protectors of politicians
2:14:04
And they can leave people dead in their wake. but without proper journalists
2:14:10
that gets described as an act of patriotism and the criminals responsible for it get pardoned
2:14:17
because the liar is in charge which means the lies have become the official version of events
2:14:24
so here is that crowd once again cheering and showing their love
2:14:31
and their admiration for the winner of the FIFA Peace Prize MUSIC PLAYS
2:15:07
James O'Brien on LBC. A little bit of housework, if you will
2:15:12
I said last week when I interviewed the Labour MP, Jess Asato
2:15:16
that I would share details both of the petition you could sign
2:15:20
to show your support for her attempts to hold companies accountable for AI-generated sexual abuse images
2:15:28
She's taking legal action against Elon Musk's company after people used its technology to create fake sexualized images of her
2:15:39
and I didn't. So I am now sharing the link that you need to sign that petition
2:15:44
and indeed the email address that you would need if you wanted to find out more or join in the legal action
2:15:52
that Jess is taking on my Blue Sky account. So that would be Mr. James OB on Blue Sky
2:16:02
So apologies for not doing that sooner. If I told you the reason, you'd just laugh at me
2:16:06
I shared the link and it went really long on my Blue Sky
2:16:10
and I don't know why. And then I did it again the next day and it wasn't really long
2:16:16
I just must have either pressed the wrong button or used the functionality incorrectly because I'm an idiot
2:16:21
So, you know, I'm glad that we can... Don't press the round of applause when I say that, Keith
2:16:26
So I'm happy that we can clarify that. It is 12.49. All right, a little bit lighthearted, I think
2:16:33
needed after that moment there with Scott Pelley. Let's get back to the craziest things
2:16:37
the most inappropriate things you've witnessed in a live audience. Connor is in Glasgow
2:16:42
Connor, what would you like to say? Good afternoon, James. I just wanted to tell you about a time
2:16:48
about two or three years ago when I lived in London and I was a university student
2:16:52
and of an evening I thought I'll take myself to see The Lion King in the West End
2:16:58
And I sat myself down next to a family and the lady who I was sitting next to
2:17:02
in probably the strangest behaviour I've ever seen, whenever there was a character who appeared on stage
2:17:08
that she didn't like, she would take handfuls of popcorn that they'd been selling in the foyer
2:17:13
and throw it at the stage. Of course, we were sitting in the circle
2:17:17
so none of the popcorn could reach the stage. So lots of people sitting in the stalls
2:17:22
were getting a shower of popcorn. So it's absolutely crazy behaviour. I mean, proper handfuls
2:17:28
Proper handfuls of popcorn. which is not cheap, by the way. I don't want to sound too Scottish
2:17:33
And they sell it in the theatre. They sell it in the theatre of where The Lion King is showing you
2:17:38
I love The Lion King. It's a great show. I had an aisle seat last time I went to see The Lion King
2:17:44
and my drink almost got knocked over by a giraffe, but it was my fault for not moving it when the ushers told us to
2:17:50
Well, I mean, there's part of me... I mean, the fact that the popcorn wouldn't reach the stage
2:17:54
and would shower just down on the people below is obnoxious. but there's part of me that just thinks she was so caught up in it
2:18:00
that she didn't realise what she was doing. Possibly, but I mean, the thing which I found crazy about that
2:18:05
is that she appears to be a mother there with children. Right
2:18:09
So I remember her being there with two children. This is maybe three years ago. Well, at least she didn't ask you to take any of them to the toilet
2:18:15
So you should be counting your lucky stars. So, yeah, what you mean is she should have been in control of the situation
2:18:20
or what have you. Yeah, or setting an example of how you behave in public to them
2:18:25
But that's why I think she may not have known. It's like a boo-hiss moment, isn't it
2:18:29
I mean, I like it and I don't. Listen, if I was sitting below her, I'd be livid
2:18:35
Yes. But if I was in the show and someone told me afterwards
2:18:39
every time he came on stage, there was this woman throwing popcorn at the stage. I don't think she knows what she was doing
2:18:43
You'd probably be quietly quite proud. Maybe she was just sharing. Maybe she was just sharing
2:18:48
Yeah, participation, yeah. Exactly that. And of course, you didn't say anything
2:18:53
I was much too British. Yes, exactly. I did my kind of tutting and side-eye
2:18:59
What are you doing? What are you doing? Exactly. That's the point, isn't it? I don't know whether or not we actually approve
2:19:04
of the people who do the complaining, even as we berate ourselves for not being the kind of people
2:19:08
that can do the complaining. Thank you for that, Connor. Paul's in Selby
2:19:13
Paul, what would you like to say? Hi, James. First of all, can I just say thank you
2:19:18
for being the same voice in what seems like an increasingly insane world
2:19:22
You can, actually. You get me through the day. Well, you're very kind. Normally I'd make jokes here about how do I know you are actually sane, we might be the mad ones, but on this occasion I think I will actually take that to the bank and just say thank you very much. That's very kind of you, Paul, but it is a two-way street and I get just as much from you as you are kind enough to suggest that you get from me
2:19:41
Well, thank you. So I'm on the other side of the footlights
2:19:45
I'm an actor. So I'm on stage and I've seen it all. I worked at the National Theatre
2:19:53
I did South Pacific at the National Theatre with the most wonderful actor, Philip Quast
2:19:59
Triple Olivier Award winner. And a very, very quiet scene between him and the character that played Cables
2:20:08
He comes sneaking on stage and some kid was eating crisps in the audience
2:20:14
And he walked up the steps, took the crisps off the kid, put them in the kid's bag
2:20:19
walked back down and carried on with the scene. Fantastic. Which was amazing
2:20:24
Fantastic. It was almost like it was part of the scene. And so much so that no one clapped or anything like that
2:20:30
No, no, they just carried on with the scene. So he didn't break the moment. He didn't even break the fourth wall there
2:20:35
Nothing. Stayed in character. It was amazing Crisps are a kid But crisps are a thing right Because I mean sometimes I don understand why they sell anything that in a wrapper But crisps popcorn you can eat quite quietly
2:20:47
You can't really eat crisps quietly. And the packet is as noisy as the crisp itself
2:20:51
It's an extraordinary thing to pull out in a theatre. But the worst thing that I've seen was
2:20:56
last year I was doing railway children in the Howarth. Yes, oh, lovely
2:21:01
Oh, lovely. I bet that was a nice production. Oh, it's fantastic. I did it in London as well
2:21:05
but I went and did it again in Howarth. at King's Cross, was it, when you did it here? I did it at King's. I finished it off at King's Cross
2:21:10
Oh, I may have seen you in it then. I may have actually seen you in it. I played Perk for King's Cross. Oh, fantastic
2:21:14
Anyway, if you've seen the show, there's a railway track down the middle of the theatre
2:21:20
Yes. And the theatre, you use the side bits and you use the middle bits that come floating up
2:21:26
And when we did it in Howard's last year, the people used to literally bring in picnics
2:21:31
and they'd sit virtually on the stage having picnics with their children
2:21:36
Full-on picnics. And poor Graham, who played Mr Perks, with a trolley going down this
2:21:43
used to have to navigate all these people and these picnics. And kids, it was astounding
2:21:49
But you know, as well as I do, what the groundlings would have got up to at theatres in Shakespeare's day
2:21:55
And, you know, they would have been probably shucking oysters and eating all sorts of things and jostling each
2:22:02
So that's what I meant about the popcorn at The Lion King. There's a part of me that quite likes the idea of demystifying theatre
2:22:10
There is that. I mean, so when I did, again, I feel like I'm going through my CV
2:22:16
Well, feel free. I could listen to you all day. When I did the Scottish play at York
2:22:20
they built a big outdoor theatre, so we had Groundlings. Right. And I came on as Macduff
2:22:26
Oh, lovely. And I've got a massive broadsword. I'm huge. Yeah, all right. No one likes a show-off, Paul
2:22:32
And I was walking through, and the schools tended to be where the groundlings were
2:22:37
Yes. And, you know, you're trying to get out of the way through, because the entrance is through that way, and I've got an army behind me
2:22:43
and I'd literally have 15-year-old kids standing in front of me like they wanted to have a fight with me
2:22:49
Oh. Yeah. But the worst one was I was at York doing Captain Hook in pantomime
2:22:56
and a heckler shouted something from the audience. So was Captain Hook
2:23:00
I shouted something back. and all that sort of stuff. And this guy shouted something else back
2:23:05
and I shouted something else back, and eventually, he offered me out onto the car park
2:23:08
What, genuinely? Genuinely offered me out of the car park. And I'm still there going
2:23:13
well, I'm disabled for a start, because I've got this hook on. Yes. And I basically turned around and said
2:23:18
look, it's a kid's show. What are you doing? You know, from the stage
2:23:24
Madness. Pantomimes, probably. You're more likely at a children's show or a pantomime
2:23:29
to have adults in the audience that haven't been to the theatre before. Yeah
2:23:34
So that chat probably, I mean, crikey, I've not witnessed that. So for you, none of this is out of the ordinary
2:23:39
For me, as an audience member, if I witnessed any of this, it would be man bites dog territory
2:23:45
But if you're on stage every night, it becomes dog bites man after a while. Well, I mean, sometimes it's actually helpful
2:23:51
I've just finished doing Small Island on tour. Oh, yeah. Which is fantastic when you get an audience
2:23:57
Oh, it's fabulous. and in Birmingham we had an ethnic heavy audience because of the subject matter
2:24:04
of course and they would shout things out like you tell him sister
2:24:08
which was fantastic and when you get things like that happening in a show like that
2:24:14
it really really helps that's interaction isn't it that's not distraction yeah even if it's not
2:24:22
I think American audiences are more like that as well I think on Broadway things can be quite rambunctious
2:24:26
can't they You'll find out one day. No, you're not. I don't think I'd be allowed into America to be able to..
2:24:34
Well, that was nearly a phone-in today. We nearly did, after this Somali referee has been banned from the World Cup
2:24:39
we nearly did a phone-in about why people aren't going to the World Cup
2:24:43
for fear of precisely the possibility that you described. Thank you, Paul
2:24:47
12.57 is the time. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. As promised, we found the biggest victim of Brexit
2:24:53
the person for whom you would need a heart of stone not to shed hot tears
2:24:57
What did he say, Sid Woodell? Salt tears. When Alexander of Macedonia was 27 years old
2:25:05
he shed salt tears because there were no more worlds to conquer. Eric Bristow
2:25:10
No, 32. I got it wrong, she. When Alexander of Macedonia was 32 years old
2:25:15
he shed salt tears because there were no more worlds to conquer. Eric Bristow is 27
2:25:22
That's the finest bit of sports commentary ever by humans. It hasn't got much to do with what I'm about to tell you
2:25:27
but this is the person for whom you should be shedding salt tears over Brexit
2:25:32
Listen to this. There were occasions when we were basically invited along to little dinner parties
2:25:37
to be pilloried by everybody else and to be figures of fun. All sorts of weird, weird things happened, but it was a very difficult few years
2:25:45
This is Matthew Elliott, the founder of Vote Leave, complaining about the reception he received after helping to turn us
2:25:52
into the first population in human history that actually voted to cast or to impose economic sanctions on himself
2:25:58
He also goes on to say that Brexit has been a success, yes, 100%
2:26:02
Which makes it a bit odd that today's new feature, which is called Unhinged Event
2:26:08
we've got some special production for it. Unhinged Event. Is one inevitably promoted by the Daily Telegraph
2:26:16
called How to Make Brexit a Success. So you've got the founder of Vote Leave saying Brexit is already a success
2:26:22
and then you've got Alistair Heath, inevitably, James Frayn, Alison Pearson, and then David Frost and Daniel Hannan
2:26:31
all attending a panel called How to Make Brexit a Success. So we've now reached the bit where one of the architects is saying
2:26:37
it's all been a great success, and five of the other architects are saying, well, it hasn't actually been a great success
2:26:42
but there is a successful Brexit, it just goes to a different school. All of which begs the question of why Lord Hannan and Lord Frost
2:26:48
accepted their peerages for services to Brexit if Brexit still hasn't been a success
2:26:53
But I am a bearer of very little brain and I have neither the energy nor the inclination
2:26:57
to try to answer that question. That was pretty slick, that one, Keith
2:27:01
We didn't even rehearse. It'll never catch on. If you missed any of today's show, you can listen back on our free global player app
2:27:07
or the LBC app, where you can also stay up to date with all the latest news, videos and opinions
2:27:11
You can listen to a range of podcasts, including James O'Brien Daily, the best bits from my LBC show every day
2:27:17
So do download the official LBC app for free from your app store now
2:27:21
Coming up at four on LBC, Simon Marks is in for Tom Swarbrick. What a treat
2:27:25
The only downside is, of course, it means he can't pop up on my show while he's sitting in for Tom
2:27:29
But now it's time for Sheila Fogarty. James O'Brien on LBC

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