Starmer's speech to try to save his skin | James O’Brien - The Whole Show

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And we're here again. 10.53 is the time
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Sir Keir Starmer has just delivered a speech which is viewed in many quarters
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as being something of a premiership saver, or at least was intended to be, hoped to be that
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I mean, I like the final bit. It's weird how this breaks us down, you know, how this divides us
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I like it when he talks about his parents, the warmth and the authenticity of those comments
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to me is, to be fair, although it came right at the end of that exchange
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right at the end of the media questions, I thought it was him at his most human
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Some people hate it. I don't know whether it's a psychological thing
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or whether it's linked to your own relationship with your own family, but some people hate it when he draws upon his familial experiences
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I'm not sure what else you're supposed to draw on when you're explaining what shaped you
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and what made you. But there was nothing in that speech, I'm afraid
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that you would describe as substantive or game-changing. I mean, there's some stuff that you might file under better late than never
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getting around finally to calling Nigel Farage both a grifter and a chancer
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The nationalisation of British steel is a big story, but it's something that has been thrust upon them, I think
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rather than something that they have elected to do. The stuff about being at the heart of Europe, great
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but, you know, what does that mean? The elephant in the room of British politics for some time now
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is that the chances of meaningful growth are negligible, if not nil, while we remain out of the single market
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Listen, I know some people either don't understand that, and have not been condescending
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or refuse to accept it if they do understand it. And I'm more likely to be condescending to those people
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the actual charlatans and fraudsters, than I am to people who've been let down by the British media
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But as long as we are outside the single market, the UK economy is not engineered for meaningful growth
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you might be able to deliver some fantastic payouts to cryptocurrency billionaires who may or may not have donated secretly five million pounds to the person that they want to be the next prime minister
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But in terms of meaningful growth for normal people, it ain't going to happen as long as we are outside the single market
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And he knows that. Everyone in his cabinet knows that. And he still can't say it
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So you get the, well, I don't even know what word I would use. You get the almost platitudinal insistence that we will be somehow closer to Europe
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There are myriad problems with that, most obviously. It ain't up to us anymore
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Thanks to Rhys Mogg and Johnson and Farage and Dorries and all the rest of them
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most of whom have now signed up with reform, it's not up to us anymore
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We get what we're given. We do what we're told. The idea that we were rule takers, not rule makers
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was one of the biggest lies of the Brexit movement. But it's true now. And of course, as long as our electoral system, as demonstrated last Friday, is all over the shop
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I'm looking at 10 wards, 10 council wards in the UK, where five parties got more than 10% of the vote
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That's absolutely bonkers if you did an A-level in politics in 1990 like I did
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Five parties in 10 wards getting over 10% of the vote. That's how madly open everything is
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And as long as there's a realistic chance of somebody who continues to lie about the European Union, either because they are doing Vladimir Putin's bidding wittingly or unwittingly, as long as you have that spectre in place, the European Union ain't going to do much to help us get closer to the heart of Europe
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I love the line about shared interests, shared values and shared enemies
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but almost everything good in that speech, if you are supportive of the British government
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you would file under better late than never, and everything bad in it was the same badness
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It was the vagueness and the absence of substance. So, I mean, other things that you file under better late than never
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But finally getting around to recognising that people planning to march in this city next Saturday are racists
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And they are wooing racists. And they love racists. And the idea of Labour politicians pretending that they are people with legitimate concerns as they dance to the tune of a multiple criminal is comical
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But again, why didn't you do that two years ago? Why didn't you say the stuff about the single market two years ago
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Why didn't you say the stuff about the heart of Europe two years ago? Why didn't you say the stuff about Farage being a grifter and a chancer two years ago
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You talk about the shared interest values and enemies, crucially, that we have with our European allies
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Why didn't you do it two years ago? Why are you only doing it now? So you break down according to either better late than never or, sorry mate, I've run out of road
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I don't know where I am at the moment. Would you scream at me if I suggested I was 52, 48
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There's not a lot there. I mean, it was one of the best speeches he's given. But once you reach the point where you're giving one of the best speeches you've given
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and it's not a brilliant speech, and it's not necessarily going to move the dial or the needle at all
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then where are you? Where are you? I mean, everything he said was true
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We are teetering on the brink of a very dark period in British history
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But whether or not he's done enough to drag people back from that brink, I don't know
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He's failed to persuade them to come back from the brink by pandering to their prejudices
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and aping the populists and the racists who have seduced them. but what's he offering them instead
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I don't know. I don't know. I was moved by the line about his parents
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deriving enormous comfort from the knowledge that they have made the country a better place
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for the coming generations. That is, for me, and don't laugh, you can mock me
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that's almost a definition of my politics in emotional essence rather than in policy-driven principle
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what is it that you want from a government I just want things to be better for my
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children's generation than they were for mine or I want things to be better
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for your children's generation than they were for yours and I don't know that that's going to happen
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so there's a lot to get through it was authentic, it was powerful but it wasn't perhaps enough, I don't know
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I don't know but I do know this, I've got two questions for you
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the obvious question is what did you make of the speech but with that we need a sort of side order
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don't we? that recognises the fact that most people aren't going to have listened to it or watched it
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they're going to be relying upon online headlines and the rest of it for
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their interpretation of what happened Starmer cosies up to Europe Starmer betrays Brexit
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Starmer abandons Brexit and the second thing is something I don't often ask you
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but I will today what do you want? seriously, what do you want
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James O'Brien on LBC Three minutes after 11 is the time. What did you think of that
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And what do you want now? 0345 6060 973. A little bit of context
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Don't phone me with your lunch orders. I've been listening to Keir Starmer's speech
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If you're just joining us, you'll have to rely upon other people's reports as to what went on
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But what do you want now? I mean, there are two distinct questions there
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What did you think of what you got? And what do you want now
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And I want your answers to come from a kind of thoughtful position
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I mean the simple idea that you know I want apple pie or I want a general election or whatever it might be is I think it well represented on social media but it not really very valuable for
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our purposes in trying to actually plot the course ahead. What did you think of that
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And what do you want now? Hit the numbers now, you will get through. Julian is in Maidenhead
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Julian, what would you like to say? Sorry, I just wanted to try and get my order in. Onion bar, G, nut and garlic chicken
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I thought, to me, it was okay. It was decent. Unfortunately, I'm not the huge swathe of people
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that need to be convinced. And unfortunately, the people that need to be convinced
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are not... I don't think they're open to hearing that from Stamm
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I don't think it rings with anything. He's not... So there's nothing he could have done
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The ship has sailed? Unfortunately, what I think... the country needs i think star may is kind of delivering it but you can't correct this ship
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that's been going off course for the past almost two decades you're not going to do it within a
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year or two it's not going to happen anyone who says it will is talking absolute nonsense and
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they're populists they're popular i mean was it beth rigby who asked about whether or not the
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country was ungovernable once again yes in the absence of natasha clark getting a question which
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is absolutely unforgivable when you look at the size of the audience that this programme and this radio station enjoy
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But, once again... It's typical of post-Brexit Britain. Isn't it? I couldn't agree more
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But Beth Rigby's questions were probably the best. And she did look at that ungovernable thing
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And there is something in that, isn't there? There is. The people that will rise furthest in an ungovernable country
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are the people promising simple solutions. They promise the world, promise unicorns, promise wealth for everybody
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And it's just not going to happen. And it's not going to happen overnight. but the populists will say it
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Starmer won't. He won't say it. He'll come up with something. He's not a charmer
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But there are other people who are far more charming but who are far less diligent, far less decent
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far less obsessed with making things better. They'll just want to line their own pockets or just..
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Well, I think actually, to be fair, in Nigel Farage's case, he already has
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You know, he's already got at least £5 million secret. I don't know
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And that's all we know about. I mean, goodness knows whether or not there are any other secret donations from foreign-based billionaires
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I don't know who bets against that. I don't think it's going to stop any time soon. What do you want
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I kind of really like the fact that we weren't an object of ridicule for every other country
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I'm of foreign origin. I'm not natively, my parents were not born here
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My first language was not this one that I speak. It was a different one
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So I've spent all my life dealing with continental Europe and other countries
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And I've been proud to be, because I speak several languages, I've been proud to be a sort of ambassador for this country
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saying we're not all monolingual. Some of us speak several languages quite well
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But after Brexit, I had to walk around apologizing because everyone just thought, oh my God
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you've made such an absolute mistake, this country. And I was embarrassed and everyone was making fun of us
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Brexit served one purpose. it convinced everyone not to do the same thing
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because it has been an absolute... Absolutely. Absolute catastrophe of a political plan
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To divorce yourself from your nearest neighbour. Well, we're in favour of it
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Frexit and all the rest of it has disappeared from political discourse. You've got very, very right-wing politicians on the march
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in some European countries, none of whom ever posit leaving the European Union
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Even Viktor Orban, as he did everything in his power to sabotage and scupper the European Union
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never really posited the notion of leaving it. Not a lot there on the what do you want, but plenty, Julian, on the what did you think
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I'll continue to try to ride both horses. You remind me of an interview that Sadiq Khan's just given, actually
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in which he says, if you're a nativist, you believe in mono-ethnicity, you believe in mono-religion, then London is the antidote and the antithesis
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because we are diverse, we are pluralistic, we are liberal, and we are incredibly successful on any objective criteria
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which is, of course, what boils the blood of the kind of people who've directed the political discourse in this country
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In recent years, one person I did think of during that speech was Elon Musk
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He must be absolutely delighted that the needle of British politics has moved so far to the right
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that the Prime Minister has to now call out the kind of racists and grifters
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who would once have been very much fringe and marginal figures, but such as the toxicity of social media in general
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and post-Musk Twitter in particular, that the Prime Minister can no longer go down that road
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He has to actually point and shame. Let's go to... I've got two correct guesses on what it was about that speech
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that even now you can hear from my voice. I hope you can. I'm just thinking about it
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It's not quite Guy Goma territory. Do you want to know a secret about the Guy Goma appearance on this programme
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Can I share this or not? Is it a bit unprofessional? Eleanor, you decide
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It's not quite Guy Goma territory, but every time I think about the thing that I'm thinking about now
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I'm going to smile in the context of that speech. Only two people have correctly guessed what it was
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You can play by texting 84850 or WhatsAppping the usual number. Veronica is in Sutton
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Veronica, what made you pick up the phone? Well, first of all, I don't know what you're talking about
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so I'm curious to know what's making you smile. Can't you guess? Think back to that speech
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Well, actually, there are a few elements. But anyway, let me first give you my reaction. My first immediate reaction was relief
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my relief that he wasn't standing down today because i thought you know with all the pressure
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he was under over the weekend regarding the speech itself i mean for starmer that was a good speech
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yes for a normal orator it was you know i mean he's not it's not great doing speeches no but on
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the content the things i appreciated from it is first of all um everything about eu and i mean
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your first call has gone over that so i'm not going to go over there you know um and he's calling
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out is calling up brexit he was calling up for really strongly about the the sins of brexit yes
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and what happened so i was really pleased to hear that the second thing though um he called out the
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populism and about the the the hate march coming the march you know the the tommy robertson march
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that i'm thinking he's going there he's he's taking the battle to the populism uh thank god
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about time and you don't you don't have your enthusiasm for that polluted by the failure to
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do so sooner because if it were a matter of pure principle it would not have been diluted by
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pragmatism would it i think he was trying to ride two horses and now he's had a wake-up call
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um i think he realizes he cannot he cannot be um he's got to stick to the the wake-up call he's got
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to stick to true labor principles and to answer with you the back door is the green party um you
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know so he's got if i was you know advising him he's got to be more concerned about the green party
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because the reform voters are never, he's not going to get those people back
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Let them go. But what he's got to do is short up. What I want from the future, though
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is, and I don't want to swear here. Please don't. Goodness me, it's not you that gets into trouble, is it
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It's me and Eleanor. No, no, no, no. I just we cannot afford a psychodrama this inward political drama We need this country needs stability You know we went through Brexit We had multiple PMs
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For God's sakes, we need to just let them get on and do their job
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Yeah, I mean, I'm 52, 48 on that after Friday. I just, you know, the negativity that he personally attracts
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is the story of almost every doorstep, from Labour canvassers and Labour candidates
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And yes, he can prove people wrong and turn oil tankers around
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but I think it's a little bit more than a sort of yet another Tory round of infighting
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There is a sense of existential dread. I think it's more sort of Ian Duncan Smith territory, perhaps
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even though he's in power, not opposition, than it is Rishi Sunak territory
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I don't know, though, because, you know, I have this catchphrase, Veronica, good for business, bad for the soul
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And all of this is good for business. People like talking about it. It's important to discuss it
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But 48% of me agrees with you completely. So can we just focus on the..
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Let's talk about what the nationalisation of British steel means. Let's talk about what the European Union might allow us to do
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by way of accelerating and enhancing that relationship. But we won't. We will continue inevitably to talk about the sideshow, if you like
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because it is in some ways more important than what's happening on the stage. Is he still going to be Prime Minister by Christmas
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Veronica, thank you. I'm going to tell you. Shall I tell you what the thing is that keeps me chuckling? Yeah, go on
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Did you notice who didn't get a single mention in that speech? Erm, no
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No? I'll give you a clue. The person who was the real winner on Friday
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Oh, God, you can't. Go for it, I can't. The person who never makes any gaffes
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I mean, but... No. Still not. Okay, let me try again. The person who became working class when she worked in McDonald's
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Oh, God. Kemi Badenot. Yeah. Not a single... The leader of His Majesty's opposition
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It's completely made her irrelevant. Well, I don't think he's done it, to be fair
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I mean, I don't think she needed any help at all. But I opened Friday's show with my tongue wedged in my cheek
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saying the only thing that we're waiting for now is for Kemi Badenot to come out and claim that she's the real winner
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and she spent the entire weekend claiming to be the real winner
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A tactic so effective that the Prime Minister didn't think it was even worth acknowledging her existence
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when responding to the election results on Friday and setting his course for the future
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I thought when I asked you that question, my inbox would go, Bedenot, Bedenot, Bedenot, Bedenot, Bedenot, Bedenot, Bedenot
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But it didn't. The response in my inbox was very, very similar to Veronica's
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which was a sort of version of, I don't know, what? Oh, yeah. Ha-ha-ha
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Sean's in Birmingham. Sean, what would you like to say? First of all, that I, yeah
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Kemi Bader's not the real winner. Sorry, that's funny. Look at the tweets, mate
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Look at the posts, the social media posts. Yeah, I took a couple of days off
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and it seems I've missed the real drama, the real winner. But so the starting point on this is
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I mean, that speech is interesting. I was almost surprised by your pessimism
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quite honestly, with that speech. Because I'm sort of in the same place as you with that
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that it was a great speech for Starmer, but at this point it's, you know..
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I mean, it may be that there was no speech he could give that would have buttered the parsnips that you want buttering
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Yeah, that's it. That may have been it for me. But yeah, I think it was really interesting
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And I think what he, you know, when he does those family links, I definitely do sit there thinking, yeah
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that gives him that sort of humanity that I think is why Starmer gets these criticisms of Wooden a lot
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But going on to, you know, the main things he was talking about in that speech, the issue is he did begin to diagnose the problem that I've been seeing, an element of the problem that I've felt for a long time is that, yes, people aren't hearing the right things from the Labour government
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But the biggest issue that he sort of jumped over, which I would have liked him to talk about more, is about feeling
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So how are people feeling? People aren't feeling the change two years on positively
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I think we've spoken about this before. You know, monthly disposable income in the reality
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once all your expenses are gone is just at a point of..
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It's becoming more and more painful. And I think... There's not a lot he can do about that in the short term, is there
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No, this is it. But I think that it's... You wouldn't want to get ahead of the King's speech
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but let's be honest, there's nothing there that indicates... That's on Wednesday, for people who don't know
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We'll be taking that on LBC Live on Wednesday. So, yeah, you're right
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He couldn't make a massive announcement. They teed up, I mean, the nationalisation of British Steel, as I say, is more a response to circumstances and events than it is a policy diversion or a policy pronouncement
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He teed up, you know, Europe as being, or his people teed up Europe as being the big pivot or the big point
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And it was words, not policy, wasn't it, that he came out with. I can derive some comfort and encouragement from the fact that he went further with the words than he ever has done before
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but not enough comfort to move the needle particularly. Absolutely. And the public ownership and public interest bit that you said in reference to British Steel was interesting
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Because, again, I'm just thinking, remember how popular Corbyn was at the time
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What was that for? It was these policies of, you know, bringing back our fundamentals back to be done for the public interest, not for profit
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And, you know, British Steel is a very, very small starting point, which, as you said, they've been dragged to it
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but people want to hear policies that are going to be done in their interest
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and make that difference. And there's nothing in that speech, again, that really moves that dial at all
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And what do you want? I mean, you've kind of answered that question already, but do you want him to go
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Do you want him to be replaced? Because I know you think deeply about these things
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I mean, quite honestly, at this point, I genuinely think, even if it was Angela Rayner, who I guess would be my pick as a Green supporter
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or that, you know, closer to the left. I don't think, you know, all of these criticisms of Starmer
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it's this new Labour movement that regardless of whether you get Street in, Rainer, Burnham or this Catherine West
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no one heard of until the other day. That's not true. And even if it is true, it's not important
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because stalking horses traditionally are not household names. I think it was Sir Anthony Mayer possibly who began the process
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that finally got rid of Margaret Thatcher and I bet you still don't know his name. No, that's it
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And I definitely can't imagine a world where, I imagine that was more to Paul Streets into my case
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Well, she was a principal. She got fired, I think, by Corbyn because she refused to vote to leave the single union and customs market
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And she asked customs union, and she asked one of the questions in the House
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that actually began the ball rolling for Boris Johnson. So just because, I mean, you probably hadn't heard of the MP for Dan B. Dale
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who introduced... No. I feel like I'm cautioning you, which you don't really deserve
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But I just think the fact that we haven't heard about, The fact that we haven't heard of someone much before, or you haven't, doesn't mean that what they're doing today is not significant
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It's the point I'm making. Absolutely. No. No, fair enough. But I do think... Sorry, I've lost my train of thought now
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That's all right. It's because I kept interrupting you. You don want to change You don think a change would necessarily change anything I think the way I look at politics now and I think this is what the local election results have shown us is it not going to be Labour that stops reform And that the
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one common interest that we have. And I think it is going to be down to the Green Party
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quite honestly, to do that. Now there's stuff that needs to happen there, and that's not
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the point of this conversation. Sure. Except Labour won way more seats than the Greens did, didn't they, in total
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Yeah. And they lost more than anyone's lost ever. Sorry, pretty much. But I don't know
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So if he is in the business of trying to woo green-curious voters or green voters
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then they will not have liked him lumping them in with reform voters
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No, and that was something that stood out to me. It's like, you know, to try and caveat us
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as the same threat to the country is ridiculous, let's be honest. But I think the weak green and weak reform
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the statement that he made, and, you know, rather, no, we need to leave that away and be strong Labour
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I do completely agree with. I think it's, you know, we saw it with the asylum stuff
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where they've tried to satisfy the electorate and I think they do need to focus on what offerings they have
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why they've had the support they have. Yeah, because I don't think they're ever
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I mean, this is what we did on Thursday, actually, I think. Well, not Thursday, we weren't allowed to talk about politics
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but one of the findings we did towards the end of last week was about the fact that he has delivered what they say that they want
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when it comes to immigration figures. and of course what Farage will do is pivot away to disabled people
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or poorly people or unemployed people and start claiming that they're the ones who are nicking all your biscuits
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while the people who have got all the biscuits keep funneling millions and millions of pounds to his private account quite secretly
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But hey-ho, I just keep pointing it out even if many people insist that they can't hear me
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20 minutes after 11 is the time. Thank you, Sean. Phone lines are open
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If you're struggling to get through, remember as soon as Sean hangs up it frees up a phone line for you
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Questions are, what did you think of that? And crucially, what do you actually want next? And we'll look also, maybe, at the Europe question
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Quarter to 12, I've got that chap coming on, who I told you about last week, Munya Chihuahua
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who has made a documentary for Channel 4 that is on tomorrow night, looking at..
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OK, I'm going to say a word, and if you have been paying attention to this programme
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over the course of the last week, you will know exactly what's coming up next. And that's all I'm going to do
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I'm just going to say the word. OK? Kayfabe. Is that the right word, Keith
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Yeah? Kayfabe. James O'Brien on LBC. 22 minutes after 11. Kayfabe is the professional wrestling practice
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of portraying staged events, storylines and rivalries. We took an amazing... We did one of our maddest phone-ins ever last week, didn't we
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When we only took two calls. Not through choice, because I'd done a 58-minute monologue
25:15
but rather through necessity, because they were both so good We didn't have room for anybody else. First of all, it was Ash, the former Merchant Seaman
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who now trains Merchant Seaman, giving us an absolute masterclass in what was happening
25:27
and what was likely to happen next in the Strait of Hormuz. I think it's fair to say that his ysis of the Strait of Hormuz
25:32
is up there with my ysis of Brexit. None of his predictions have failed to come to fruition
25:38
And then Helen rang in from Manchester to explain about wrestling and kayfabe and the relevance that it has to Donald Trump
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something that Johnny Vaughan introduced me to first in the corridors of this building
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which I didn't take perhaps quite as seriously as I should have done. Because to understand Trump, you have to understand the world of professional wrestling
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up to and including the point that the wife of the founder of the WWE
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is currently his Secretary of State for Education. Secretary for Education. Education Secretary
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So one of the funniest people I've come across in recent years
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Munya Chihuahua, has made a documentary for Channel 4 looking in greater detail at this
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relationship between wrestling and Donald Trump and he'll be joining us at quarter to 12 today
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Before that, I get a lot of messages, you know, and I take criticism fairly well, better than I used to
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telling me that I am an absolute fraud, a charlatan and a cheat for not covering the stories that you feel
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I should be covering and would be covering were I not in the pocket of Big Pharma or various other
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And on this occasion, you are right. I have managed to get somehow to 25 minutes after 11
26:47
without mentioning at all what was by far the biggest story of this weekend
26:54
So, first of all, I would like to apologise. I'm very sorry
26:58
And second of all, I would like to make amends. Here it is
27:08
It's done. It's Kinavinsden's moment. They are back in the National League
27:18
And you can see just what it means. Pure emotion. All the pressure, week on week, building to this
27:27
Oh, man, he's not wrong. So if I think about the fact that Keir Starmer, the Prime Minister
27:31
gave a 25-minute speech without once mentioning the leader of the opposition, Kemi Bader not, I can feel a giggle building up inside me
27:39
I listened to that footage of the full-time whistle up in South Shields on Saturday
27:43
and I can feel a sort of borderline euphoria building up inside me
27:48
And as I suggested to you on Friday, I didn't go because I'm worried that I might become a jinx
27:53
So congratulations to everybody at Agbra, but obviously to Adam Murray, the manager
27:59
and the squad first and foremost, and also to the excellent Richard Lane, the chairman, who's now secured two promotions in four years
28:06
albeit promotion to the same league because we came back down again last time. But still, two promotions in four years isn't bad for a chairman, is it
28:14
And indeed, Paul puts it best. He says, Keir Starmer should resign and appoint Adam Murray
28:19
He at least retains the confidence of his dressing room. A reference there to the promotion-winning manager of Kidminster Harriers
28:26
who brought me untold joy this weekend. Anyway, enough about that. Back to the... Hey
28:30
From South Shields to North Shields. That's where Stephen is. I suppose you weren't shedding any tears on behalf of your near neighbours
28:35
on Saturday afternoon, Stephen. Hi, George. Good to speak to you. No, I wasn't
28:41
Although, congratulations to Giddeman, sir. That's great. Thank you very much. Now, what made you pick up the phone
28:46
Well, it's a couple of things. You're asking what I sort of liked about Keir Thomas' speech
28:50
and I thought it was great to hear him. Or didn't like, or didn't like, you know. Did like, did like
28:54
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was that he did really sort of have a go at reform and really started to point out the hypocrisy and borderline
29:02
well, beyond borderline, corruption of the likes of Farage. Probably can't say that out
29:08
I mean certainly secretly accepting £5 million may have an appearance of moral corruption
29:14
and it poses questions about his integrity but there's no suggestion of law-breaking
29:17
at this point just to clarify No absolutely and unfortunately the Commons Commission
29:24
no matter what they find out there will be no criminal charges it will only be potentially a slap on the wrist
29:30
but I hope it gets But you use the words grifter and chancer
29:34
So you're filing that under better late than never. Absolutely, yeah. And to talk about the division and stalking division and the use of these topics by the
29:43
parties and obviously lumped Green in there with reform when it came to the politics of division
29:50
Do you, let me get this right. So, when they wooed, and I think it was Morgan McSweeney's master plan, but Starmer went
29:59
with it. So, you know, he doesn't get to wash his hands of it just because he's washed his hands of
30:03
McSweeney. When they sought to woo these people, when they sought to say that people going on the
30:09
actual hate march were sort of legitimate citizens with genuine concerns, and they sought to sort of
30:15
pander to these prejudices and this propaganda, that wasn't a deal breaker. The fact that you're
30:23
letting him row back now to where I think you and I probably think his natural instincts lie
30:29
but they played with fire when they started trying to woo those people
30:33
So you might say better late than never. Other people might say, I'm sorry, you lost me forever when you went down that road
30:40
Oh, absolutely. And I think that's the case for myself. I'm very much on the green side of things now. Yes
30:46
Basically because I believe in compassion and I believe in decency. And I think, you know, in terms of what I'd like to see from Labour
30:52
it is a complete turnaround on their vicious policies or anti-immigration policies
30:57
Shabana Mahmood's disgraceful policies, in my opinion, and the sort of othering and blaming of immigrants
31:06
for all the wars of the country as a distraction from dealing with the real issues
31:10
And I think all they've done is pitch role for reform, made it more acceptable to discuss these things
31:16
and more acceptable to support these things. And I think that just, you know
31:21
goes against what I expected Labour to stand for. Yes. And certainly, you know, appalls me to the point of
31:26
contemplating whether I could ever support them again. Trying to out-reform reform is the simple way of putting it
31:35
I don't know that anyone can dispute that that is what we've been looking at for the last 12 months or even perhaps the last two years
31:41
And whether or not this represents a sea change in that will depend, as you say, more upon policies than it does upon pronouncements
31:49
So you've answered both questions, what you thought of the speech and what you want from them
31:54
Do you know, there's a little bit of me, Stephen, and I don't want to talk myself out of whatever paltry relevance I may currently enjoy
32:01
but almost every conversation about British politics that doesn't put the single market
32:06
right in the middle of everything is relatively pointless. You want to talk about economic growth, you want to talk about shared defence values
32:15
you want to talk about commercial interests, you want to talk about citizens' freedoms
32:20
you want to talk about mobility movement, all of those things. It's mad that we're still 10 years later living in a country where it almost feels as if he had to take a deep breath, close his eyes and jump off the top diving board before he could actually say that Brexit was a bloody disaster
32:33
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think it's probably political, I don't know, there's an inertia and I don't think it reflects public opinion
32:42
I think the public opinion has moved very much towards being open to some element of rejoining
32:49
whether that's single market or customs union or even a full rejoin
32:54
But I don't think anybody's testing the waters sufficiently to really get that picture
32:59
They've got their heads in the sand and they're determined that, oh, no, we've got to stand by that vote of 10 years ago, to all intents and purposes
33:07
built on a huge amount of lies and misinformation. why can't we revisit that
33:13
Why can't we have that sensible grown-up discussion on even another referendum
33:17
Yeah, it's funny someone had written a book about why we can't do that, Stephen
33:21
And of course I felt that Keir Starmer was very unfair to Nigel Farage
33:26
which is not something I say very often when he suggested that the only thing Farage won't
33:30
talk about is the failure of Brexit because of course he also
33:34
refuses to talk point blank about the 5 million quid that he secretly received
33:38
from a foreign-based millionaire I can't remember. One of the names he goes by is Christopher Harbourn
33:45
Made a ton of money out of cryptocurrency and would make a ton more if Nigel Farage were to deliver on some of the policies he's already mooted as a potential prime minister
33:53
I think his other name is Sats Chakrit. It'll come to... Billionaire. Billionaire, sorry, not millionaire. Fact check
34:02
It'll come to me in a moment. So, you know, come on, Sir Keir. A bit more integrity, please
34:07
how dare you suggest that the only things Nigel Farage won't talk about is Brexit
34:11
when the other thing he won't talk about is the £5 million that he secretly trousered
34:15
from a foreign-based billionaire who would be set to make unimaginable sums of money
34:21
in the event of you becoming Prime Minister. Do you know, he actually sat in that chair over there, Farage
34:26
and bigged up the company that Christopher Harbourn owns 12% of when he was on with Nick
34:30
No way Nick could have known that. But that's the thing about Farage, is that eventually he embarrasses everybody
34:36
Some of his cohorts, some of his closest colleagues forced at the weekend to either, well, I mean
34:43
asked whether or not they were confident he hadn't taken any other secret donations from millionaires and billionaires
34:48
And of course they can't answer that question because they don't know. And in the case of one or two of the people that have risen quite high in his party
34:55
you have to wonder whether they've given him any money. Just, hey, hey, I'm just asking questions
35:00
But you do, don't you? You look at the kind of Nepo babies that have triumphed in Nigel Farage's party
35:05
and the amount of money they have given to the party, you have to wonder whether, like Christopher Harbourn
35:10
they've also sort of sent a little bit of moolah, sent a little taste, sent a little slice into his current account as well
35:18
But I'm sure he'll be clearing all of that up at the very first opportunity. And if you believe that, I've got a bridge that you might like to buy
35:25
Here's Dominic Ellis with the headlines. James O'Brien on LBC. Here's 11.36. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
35:33
well I don't know how much of the speech you heard of course the further we drift away from it
35:39
the more likely it is that you weren't with us between 10 and 10.45
35:43
when Keir Starmer was both addressing the nation and taking questions from His Majesty's media
35:49
I have to be conscious of that because there's a temptation to talk about nothing else
35:53
until Sheila gets here with a brief interlude shortly wherein Munya Chihuahua will talk to us
35:58
about his new film for Channel 4 looking at the extraordinary relationship
36:02
between Donald Trump and professional wrestling. So, I mean, either we will do that
36:07
in which case I have to slightly rejig the question, or at least put more emphasis on the second half of the questions
36:12
that I'm asking this morning, as opposed to the first half. So the first half is, what did you think of that
36:18
And the second half is, what do you want now? Do we actually know what we want
36:22
It was Pippa Krell from The Guardian, not Beth Rigby, who, isn't it brilliant how the plurality
36:27
of the best political journalists in this country now are women? I'm not being weird, I'm just pointing out
36:32
that that was simply not the case when I joined journalism, let alone when my late father was in it
36:38
But Pippa asking a brilliant question about whether or not the country is ungovernable
36:42
It's not a phone-in, unfortunately. It's not a phone-in because you might turn it into a binary
36:47
Is the country ungovernable? Yes. Next caller, no. Next caller, yes. I don't know that it would be a very fertile phone-in
36:56
But it's a fascinating question, and it's contingent upon that central point
37:00
Or two central points that pop up on this programme on a regular basis
37:06
The first is the promise of the far-right populist as opposed to the left-wing populist
37:12
The far-right populist promises you racism, misogyny and climate change denial, along with latterly transphobia as well
37:23
And that is such a heady brew such an intoxicating mix that many people as we have seen in the United States of America are prepared to overlook reality itself because the hit they get from the racism and misogyny and the climate change denial is so huge and Farage very much going where Trump has led on that one
37:43
But the other side of that is the country ungovernable. It's not independent of that populist process, but it is the single market
37:51
it is the fact that geographically and economically this country is hobbled
37:56
by not being in the single market. It is objectively insane. It was insane when we talked about it in 2015 and 2016
38:05
and it's insane now. I saw some... What was it? I saw some pictures at the weekend of people
38:12
when they were going, do you remember that weird little Let's Go WTO episode
38:18
and people who had absolutely no idea what it meant were successfully persuaded when Johnson was wanging around
38:25
going on about no deal being better than a bad deal. A statement of such unutterable idiocy
38:30
that even Nadine Dorries probably understood that. No, scratch that. Even Jacob Rees-Mogg probably understood that
38:39
But the absolute madness of the people who were jumping up and down
38:43
waving let's go WTO placards and things like that sets the tone 10 years later for a country where we can talk about all the things that matter
38:53
without economically at least talking about the thing that matters most which kirstama finally
38:59
got around to doing today but what he can actually do about it i'm afraid um at best remains to be
39:05
seen at worst is diddly squat 20 minutes to 12 is the time we are planning on bringing back the
39:12
reform roundup obviously we were required to put it on ice during purda i think it's going to be
39:17
too big a job for Henry Riley to undertake single-handedly, so we may need a new name for it
39:22
I thought we might go for the road to five million. Can we find, between now and the next
39:29
general election, five million stories highlighting the racism, the idiocy, the dishonesty or the
39:37
criminality of people that have been brought into public service by Nigel Farage? Five million. The
39:43
Road to 5 million, I thought we might call it. 5 million Farage, perhaps
39:48
We're looking for 5 million stories detailing the anti-Semitism, the racism, hideous racism already
39:55
in one case. The criminality, the basic corruption, the moral corruption, the actual corruption
40:03
the lies. And don't forget, of course, that the vetting with this outfit
40:08
is absolutely brilliant. We know that because Nigel told us. Who's going to keep count
40:13
And what do we do if we get up to 5 million? If we get up to 5 million, what do we have to stop
40:19
What if there's 5 million and 10? 10 people could get away with it. But that's the name I'm going for at the moment
40:24
We can't call it Riley's Reform Roundup anymore because Riley isn't going to be able to do it all the time
40:28
He's got shows to present and, you know, a proper job to do. So I'm looking at 5 million
40:34
the road to 5 million is what we're thinking and calling it at the moment. But you're welcome to come up with your own suggestions
40:39
And, of course, speaking of your own suggestions, the phone lines are actually open. And if you want to tell me
40:44
A, what you thought of the speech, and B, what you want now from Labour, from Keir Starmer, from your government
40:49
then the number you need is 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need
40:55
Peter's on the Wirral. Peter, what would you like to say? Hiya, James, yeah
41:01
Just for context, I did listen to all of the speech this morning
41:06
and the questions later. I was in expectation of something special being said this morning
41:15
and was really disappointed. It seemed to be regurgitating what they've been saying before
41:23
And they're all very valid. I'm not discounting it. The young people, the minimum wage, the low paid, all of that
41:33
Europe, yeah, but we've heard it before with him. Other than British Steel, there was nothing there that said, this is what we're going to do
41:42
It was, this is the issues we've got, but trust me, I'm going to fix them
41:47
But do you know what really disappointed me, James? They left out. Go on
41:51
They left out. You mentioned it earlier, when he started speaking about his mum and dad
41:56
and their expectations for their siblings to do better. I thought he might have
42:04
just moved out a little bit further and spoke to me my generation and a younger generation
42:11
who have children who do expect that but we are paying the extra taxes
42:18
that we're being asked to pay and every year we are you know the freezing of the tax threshold
42:24
means as a pensioner with a small pension every year incrementally I'm paying more tax percentage wise
42:31
than they did last year. I'm happy to do that because that's what I understand is needed
42:37
I'm happy to do that to see what it is. Do you know what? He never mentioned us
42:41
He never once said, do you know what? We know what you're doing, guys
42:46
and we really appreciate it, and you know why you're doing it. And he never mentioned it
42:50
He left us. To me, he just seemed to leave us as if we're just pay, you know
42:56
It's an amazing thing, that, isn't it? Historically, not just politically, But I mean, I think it goes back to Mark Twain, doesn't it
43:04
Death and taxes being the only certainties in life. But taxes never portrayed as something, as a subject of pride
43:11
And I don't know that I can join you in criticising him for not turning that oil tanker around
43:17
because it would be such a huge pivot to say to the taxpayers of this country, be proud that you are helping to settle the bills
43:24
and, you know, seed the ground for the coming generations. I don't know what it would achieve
43:32
because most people, unlike you, feel aggrieved by the tax that they pay
43:37
I understand that, James, that there are lots of people being told that
43:42
But the narrative from the other side of saying, why aren't you being asked to pay these taxes
43:49
And this is the benefits that you, you as a person now
43:54
are going to hand on to your family, to your generation. Someone will pop up and just say
44:01
oh, no, nonsense, it's all going to the Skyvers and the refugees. And you know that they are lying
44:06
They do that anyway, but the fact that they're not saying it is a problem for me
44:11
Yeah, I see what you mean. And there's no counter-narrative to the populism and the propaganda
44:16
What did you think? Because a few people are unhappy with the perceived lumping together of Greenland reform
44:23
I'm less unhappy with it than some of my correspondents. not because I think he's comparing Green voters to Reform voters
44:30
but simply because he's comparing two leaders to each other who seem to offer quite simplistic solutions to complicated problems
44:37
But if he's in the business of trying to win over people who voted Green on Friday
44:41
that may not have been the wisest thing he could have done. No, I agree with you on that
44:46
But I also agree that, for me, the jury's out on Mr. Polanski at the moment
44:53
You know again it these simple answers you know If we squeeze the billionaires you get lots of money Well you know that not how the world works You know and we all got to understand that
45:06
We have to live in the world we inhabit, not the world of the ideology
45:12
And I think that's where we need to be moving away from. This is why the populism is what they have in common, isn't it
45:20
I don't know whether you take it back to 2016 or whether it's a bigger issue or an older issue
45:24
but the idea that people are now able to believe what they want to believe to the exclusion of either objective reality or history and tradition
45:31
as you point out, is one of the many, many problems that Keir Starmer is up against
45:36
11.46 is the time. You only need to look at America to understand that. You just shout, make America great again at the top of your voice
45:42
and refuse to acknowledge any questions asking what that actually means. And the next thing you know, you're president for the second time
45:48
It's almost as if the entire Trump regime is an exercise in professional wrestling tropes
45:54
Oh, what an extraordinary coincidence. Munya Chihuahua, who's just made a documentary for Channel 4
46:00
about how the entire Trump regime bears extraordinary resemblances to well-established professional wrestling tropes, is up next
46:06
James O'Brien on LBC. 12.12 is the time. A welcome diversion from contemplation of Keir Starmer's
46:14
I think you could say, desperate attempts now to hold on to his job
46:18
But if you disagree with that ysis, then we have still got room for your contribution later in the programme
46:24
But before that, this. They're going to America because there's a connection between Trump and wrestling
46:32
What do you think of the theory that pro wrestling might have influenced Trump? Everything he does is the psychology of pro wrestling
46:41
He's applied WWE storylines to politics. Saying the things that gets the crowd to boo and giving them what they want
46:48
You know right away who the bad guys are. He makes it easy for you to feel that
46:53
It's actually close to surreal that last week we introduced each other
46:59
You introduced me to the word kayfabe, which I had not actually, I'd managed not to come across previously
47:04
And then a sort of cautious nudge of the idea that the relationship between Donald Trump's regime
47:10
and his sort of modus operandi and WWE, professional wrestling, was something worth examining
47:18
And then it just exploded in our hands while we were talking about it on the radio. So, Johnny Vaughan had suggested to me that I needed to pay more attention to this
47:25
Linda McMahon, of course, has become Education Secretary, while having previously been known only, really, for her involvement with professional wrestling
47:34
And Munya Chihuahua, one of the funniest people around at the moment
47:38
who, I'm not even on TikTok, but his clips and films somehow managed to invade my consciousness
47:43
and make me laugh, proper laughs, on frequent occasions. You'll know his work
47:48
he has already delivered a documentary on precisely this subject just as I was picking up the phone on you to pitch it to somebody
47:56
here you are with it's on tomorrow night on Channel 4 Dude, great minds, birds of a feather or birds of the same spandex wrestling tights
48:02
So you began as a wrestling fan Absolutely, and what was so surreal is
48:09
I had tucked wrestling away in the treasure chest of nostalgia I'd grown up with it and I decided right it's time to step away
48:17
So imagine how I felt now when I see Hulk Hogan ripping his vest at a MAGA rally
48:24
Then I see Triple H in the White House. And then Linda McMahon, Secretary for Education
48:29
I couldn't connect the two in my brain. And it's only through going through the deep dive of the documentary do you realize it's been in plain sight all along
48:38
Wow. What are the big kind of themes? What are the key
48:42
Because you need to speak to both people who have followed wrestling, which is a lot of people
48:46
and people who haven't, which is also a lot of people. So some of the stuff I found really helpful
48:51
actually, it crystallised, it made sense. I look at people like Robert Kennedy and Hegseth, the defence guy
49:00
and I could not imagine how anyone would ever appoint them to senior roles in an administration
49:05
until I was introduced to the notion of building a stable of wrestlers
49:11
And I listened in to that. Well, first you've got to, during the documentary, you have to understand the mechanics by which wrestling operates
49:17
Because we think it's just body slams and elbow drops. But to earn that catharsis of sort of physical violence
49:22
you need to build a story. And there are devices for doing that. The smack talk, which are these quotable threats
49:28
The Rock was the king of smack talk. You've got the foreign heel, which is the deliberate stereotyping of the foreign outsider
49:35
You know, in wrestling during the... You know, you had like a Japanese Yoko Onzuna
49:40
the Iron Sheik, who was Iranian-American, uh muhammad hassan who was post 9 11 used to carry out a terrorism storyline despite being an italian
49:49
american and then you've got the kayfabe which is what you've spoken about which to my view is kind
49:54
of the soap operatic element of wrestling which is blurring the line between fiction and reality
49:59
so once you find out those are the tools wrestlers are using you then ask have i ever seen any of that
50:04
in trump's political strategy and the short answer is yes and you couldn't start finding evidence i
50:08
I mean, once you're looking for it, it's as if you are immersed in it, right
50:13
Because the links are, I mean, absolutely complete. Yeah. Well, I mean, first and foremost, you know, Trump already had an affinity to wrestling
50:22
because, as we know, he loves a strongman. And wrestlers are the strongest in many ways
50:26
He hosted WrestleManias, he took part in a Wrestlemania. And then one theory that we float is, what if that time he took part in a Wrestlemania
50:35
which for a while was the most viewed pay-per-view of all time, Maybe that was the first time he was able to stand amongst thousands of people and doing the wrong thing was the right thing
50:46
Smack talk, which ordinarily wouldn't fly outside the ring Suddenly was gaining him like these gladiatorial, you know, Coliseum
50:53
Lock her up, lock her up, would that be smack talk? Absolutely, you know, Sleepy Joe, Crooked Hillary
50:59
Of course, give them all nicknames Exactly, that's the dehumanisation process The foreign heel, you know, saying all Mexicans are rapists or Haitians are eating cats and dogs
51:10
That is creating the foreign heel. And when that happens in wrestling, what you'll find is the crowds are screaming USA, USA
51:17
That's what happens in the ring. And in this political context, or Israelis, it's the same thing
51:22
And it almost deafens out any nuanced thinking. Because all you can think about in that moment is your patriotism and wanting to protect your way of life
51:30
What about this idea that those of us who have never been enthusiasts for WWE or any of its sort of precursors or competitors
51:39
that it's obviously not true, but it is true at the same time
51:43
It reminded me a little bit of Trump's line about Fifth Avenue, being able to shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and not lose a single vote
51:49
It's because everybody knows that this is happening, but at the same time nobody knows that this is happening
51:54
This is exactly it, man. This is what we talk about when we speak about kayfabe
51:57
so to put it into context right you know how people say wrestling is fake okay and how could
52:03
anyone possibly believe this it's not necessarily as fans that we did believe it it was more that we
52:09
made a mutual agreement with the wrestlers to suspend our disbelief because it was more enjoyable
52:14
as a kid i watched kane bury his brother alive you know i was in year nine mourning the death
52:19
of the undertaker i watched uh you know vince mcmahon being blown up in a limo and i thought
52:23
thought it was real but maybe a small part of me didn and kayfabe in wrestling makes a great story but in politics it Kevlar Because what it means is you can never be wrong or right if you make a ludicrous statement
52:36
and then you go on to fulfill that policy or pledge, you're a hero. But if it falls flat
52:40
I turn around to you and I go, we're stupid for believing it. That's on you. That's incredible. So when you win, you're the victor. When you lose, you're the idiot
52:47
That's alternative facts, fake news, in a nutshell. In fact, you see it now with Iran
52:52
I know the war kicked off after you'd finished making the film, but you see it from one day to the next
52:57
It's a ceasefire on a Monday. It's an escalation on a Tuesday. It's all over on a Wednesday
53:02
They're going for a drink on Thursday. And then it recycles. It's rinse and repeat
53:07
And it matters, but it doesn't matter. It's true, and it's not true
53:11
How do you... I mean, by trade, you're a satirist and a comedian
53:17
I haven't seen the film yet. I'm going to watch it tomorrow night on Channel 4 at 10 o'clock
53:22
How do you satirise? You don't satirise this. You just go into false Louis Theroux type mode, do you
53:28
Because you can't satirise this. True, true. I mean, look, there are some key differences
53:33
between me and Louis in that, for example, I have the American bald eagle stretch across my crotch
53:38
at one point before stepping into the ring. But we do satirise to a degree in the sense that
53:44
you know, with the foreign heel arc, for example, we play the parallel between how Vince McMahon
53:49
would use the foreign heel to generate ratings And Trump is the same. You know, there's like a sort of Ghostbusters-esque parody where it's like
53:56
do you need to improve your ratings? Blame foreigners. You know, that's the tagline of the song
54:01
So, you know, intuitively wrestling is a pantomime tradition and it lends itself to comedy quite freely
54:08
But you're right, James. It's becoming harder to satirise because the weight is heavy
54:14
Yeah, of course it is. Not just in the context of this project, but in terms of how do you satirise the world at the moment
54:19
Exactly. You know, after the local elections, I had a message shortly after and someone had gone, you know, are you happy with the results today, sausage? You'll be back on the boats with them in two years, right? And here's the thing. It's like, when I try and when I have satirized in the past figures like Farage or any political leader, often, more often than not, it's not for my gain. It's because collectively, whatever happens, we're the victim
54:48
Like, we're all going to have to deal with that together. And so, you know, sometimes people think it's the battle of the echo chambers
54:56
That's what politics has turned into. You know, that adversarial nature, that binary nature of good versus evil
55:01
that's what we are now as an electorate. And it makes no sense because we're meant to be the tag team
55:06
If everything goes wrong in Westminster, it's us who have to team up in the protests outside to say
55:11
no, we want to change. But at the moment, we can't even have that discourse. And, you know, James, back in the day, I hate that this is nostalgia now
55:18
but when it was Labour versus Tory, Labour supporters and Tories could be in a pub together
55:23
and sort of roll their eyes at each other. But now, if predominantly reform voters are out on the streets
55:28
and any other political belief is out on the streets, suddenly we need a police line to stop us throwing bricks at each other
55:34
Like, as an electorate, that's a loss for all of us. You know, and so satire for me has become less about almost pointing the finger at the obvious enemies
55:44
and reminding us that we need to, when we vote, It's not even about making a vote to spite your neighbour
55:51
It's about making a vote to help you... Sorry, to spite your neighbour. It's about making a vote to help your neighbour
55:56
You know, don't vote to spite your enemies. Vote to help your neighbours. Because if you don't do that
56:01
there's no way we can unite against whatever result comes out. And we've seen where it can lead
56:05
as you would have experienced when you were in the United States of America. Were you surprised by anything
56:10
Because it's such a cohesive thesis. It's an amazing thing. Like, if you were an academic
56:15
it was almost like every book you open, you'd be going, Yep, that proves I'm right
56:19
Yep, that proves I'm right. It's like the WWE MAGA crossover is so complete
56:24
Did anything take you by surprise? I was surprised by how effective wrestling techniques are out in the real world
56:33
You know when you used to watch wrestling, right? And you'd see someone, like, chucked off a cage through a flaming table
56:38
No matter what you saw, every show was bookended by, don't try this at home
56:43
And I used to think as a kid, I was like, well, I'm going to do the cheeky, I'm going to do a cheeky backdrop on a trampoline
56:48
or I'm going to throw someone into the bouncy castle at my next party. But, for example, we went to visit a drinking club for MAGA fans
56:55
which was called Trumpsters Triumph Tuesdays, which makes no sense as a name
57:00
And it was just watching these people and speaking to these MAGA fans
57:04
very open-mindedly and hearing them say things like, he's a man of the people, he's a working-class billionaire
57:10
he's a blue-collar billionaire, all of these oxymorons and really seeing the effect of kayfabe
57:17
in making people believe that if they fell down in the street, he would be there to help them
57:21
It's like watching Superman and then approaching the actor and being like, I'm really struggling to pay my mortgage at the moment
57:27
Could you lend me a fiver? You know, it's just, it works
57:31
Kayfabe works. And so now I realise when wrestling said, don't try this at home, it wasn't just the moves
57:35
it was the storylines. I can't wait to watch this, but I've got one concern. I'm not going to come out of it a WWE fan, am I
57:41
Life's too short. They've already got enough box sets queued up to stream
57:45
Listen, LBC fans have been waiting to see you in a singlet for years now. Give the people what they want
57:50
But who would it be against? Let them know what O'Brien's cooking. I'm on your show hour
57:54
Thank you so much. Channel 4, 10 o'clock tomorrow night. The show will be broadcast, Wrestling With Trump
58:02
which even the title wrote itself. It's great to see you. I wish we'd met before because I seriously
58:07
you need a big laugh in this day and age, and you've delivered many, many to me
58:10
Just tell people where do they find you the rest of the time
58:15
I mean, I would say just type in Munya Chihuahua, but I just know that's impossible
58:19
The other day someone spelt my name Mundane. So I've given up
58:22
Oh, man! I've actually just given up, James. Just type in Chihuahua Zimbabwean and see what comes up
58:27
C-H-A-W-A-W-A. It's been a pleasure, seriously. Thank you, man. Good luck with the documentary
58:33
Extraordinary. Aligning of the planets. It's 12.02. James O'Brien on LBC. It is six minutes after 12
58:40
Can you guess what I said to myself before Munya came into the studio? Don't mention blank
58:45
Don't mention blank. Don't mention blank. Like an old bloke having a conversation about something he doesn't really understand
58:52
I'm not that old, but I am compared to him. Having a conversation about something he doesn't understand
58:55
desperately reaching for a cultural reference point that would make me feel a little bit less at sea
59:01
I mean, even in my own workplace, I'm getting blank faces looking back at me. I kept saying to myself, don't mention Big Daddy
59:07
Don't mention Big Daddy. don't mention still got blank faces looking back so that's what i think of when you say wrestling
59:12
i have friends little brothers who were really really into wwe and stuff like that and obviously
59:17
i know who hogan is um but that's pretty much it oh and the other one stone cold steve austin
59:22
and there's another one as well or is it stone cold steve austin there's a there's a pinball
59:27
machine in the arcade in wells next to sea that is based upon a wwe fighter and last time i checked
59:34
I had the fourth highest score. If you want to go and have a look, J-O-B on the high scores
59:39
It won't be there anymore. I haven't been for a couple of years. But I don't have the vocabulary of professional wrestling
59:45
so I reach for Giant Haystacks and Big Daddy. But I thought, I can't say that, because A, it will be irrelevant
59:52
and B, it will just demonstrate that I'm desperately trying to sound like I know what I'm talking about when I don't
59:57
So go me. Dwayne The Rock Johnson, I think. It probably was. So the ones that have ended up in Hollywood movies
1:00:03
obviously I'm aware of. But anyway, I digress. I just thought you might
1:00:07
But yes, you're right. Loads of people got that correct. It was Big Daddy or Giant Haystack, says Jamie
1:00:11
It was Giant Haystack, says Roddy. Giant Haystack, says Adam. A lot more response to that
1:00:15
than there was to my question about why Keir Starmer's speech was unintentionally hilarious
1:00:19
Or possibly intentionally. And the answer was, Kami Baden-Ock, who I think we can all agree
1:00:24
was the real winner in Friday's elections. Kami Baden-Ock didn't get mentioned once
1:00:28
That's extraordinary. It's not funny on one level, because it speaks to the fragmentation of politics
1:00:33
and the rise of populism. But goodness me, I've told you before
1:00:37
and I'll tell you again, I wish I could bottle whatever it is that Kemi Baden-Ottt represents
1:00:41
and have a little swig of it every morning before the show, because that level of delusional self-belief
1:00:46
is absolutely extraordinary. Maybe it's so intoxicating, that level of delusional self-belief
1:00:53
that it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. If she acts genuinely, she doesn't look like she's thinking
1:00:59
right, I'm going to have to pretend this has gone well. You never get that sense that before the cameras start rolling
1:01:04
she's off set, going, come on, doing those things that she was reported to have done
1:01:09
with the sort of motivational phrases into her own mirror. You are a strong and powerful woman
1:01:15
You are amazing. You have won these elections. You don't get the sense that she's doing that
1:01:20
She seems to have, it seems to have worked. She seems to have reached a point
1:01:24
where the motivational pep talk into the mirror of her, of the Linton Travel Lodge, for example
1:01:29
It seems as if it's worked now. She says, well, I don't need those anymore. I am a strong and powerful woman
1:01:34
I did win the elections on Friday. So she goes into these interviews
1:01:38
She goes on the stump. She goes out into the public, having just delivered absolutely catastrophic election results
1:01:45
and truly believes that she's done brilliantly. It's magnificent because if you weren't really paying attention
1:01:53
you might believe her. I'm not going to look at the numbers. Why would I look at the numbers
1:01:57
Never mind the numbers. feel the enthusiasm, feel the joy. This could work. You mark my words
1:02:02
She might turn it around sheerly by the power of delusion. Genuine delusion
1:02:08
I am winning, but you're in last place by a country mile. Yes, but
1:02:11
I'm actually winning if you dig into it and you think... And the next thing you go
1:02:15
the next thing you know, you're sort of going, I mean, it can't be as bad as it looks, because there's
1:02:21
no way, if it was as bad as it looks, there's no way she'd be so upbeat, right? if it's as bad as the numbers tell me
1:02:28
there's no way she'd be doing a lap of honour at the moment
1:02:31
but she's doing a lap of honour at the moment ergo as the Romans might have said
1:02:37
things can't be as bad as they appear to be because she is clearly celebrating something
1:02:43
which means logically there must be something to celebrate and the next thing you know
1:02:48
I kind of think oh she's not that bad is she? she's doing I don't know
1:02:52
but my goodness me at the moment it is just I'm gonna use a word I don't always use in these sort of when I'm talking about policies. It's actually beautiful to watch
1:03:00
It makes me it makes me smile. It just makes me chuckle
1:03:05
And here we are Prime Minister doesn't consider the leader of the opposition to be
1:03:11
worthy even of mentioning Something there isn't there that's a little bit kayfabe about Kemi Bader not maybe
1:03:18
if I was Donald Trump I'd probably come up with a new nickname now
1:03:22
and call her Kayfabe Badernot but happily I'm much bigger than that back to the phones and the question of A
1:03:27
what you thought of the speech but of course I now have many people listening who won't have heard or watched the speech
1:03:32
which means I have to acknowledge your existence as well unlike Keir Starmer and Kami Badernot
1:03:37
I acknowledge your existence and I am interested in what you have to say so question number two is what do you want from Labour now
1:03:42
what do you want from Keir Starmer specifically and question number three no prizes for guessing what the third iteration of this morning's phone-in is going to be
1:03:51
all dancing around the same maypole do you want a change do you want a change do you want do you
1:04:00
want him to go yes or no if yes then why if no why not oh three four five six oh six oh nine
1:04:09
seven three is the number that you need so what did you think of today's efforts what do you want
1:04:15
from them now and do you think which is contingent really upon the second question and possibly
1:04:20
informed by the first do you do you think it's time for him to go because i'm not there yet i i i
1:04:26
kind of i couldn't really be more disappointed in so many ways with so much of what has gone on
1:04:31
and and today's speech forgive me if this upsets you but not really offering up a great deal of um
1:04:36
hope but i don't know what would be better and until i can convince myself in my bones that
1:04:44
that would be better than this, I'm going to stick with this. But where are you on that question
1:04:48
03456060973. MJ is in Edinburgh. MJ, what would you like to say
1:04:55
Hi, James. To start off, I thought I'd bring your wrestling references
1:04:58
30 years closer to the present. Big Daddy Cool, a later wrestler, one of Hulk Hogan's contemporaries
1:05:05
was who I thought of when you were talking about Big Daddy
1:05:09
Now, Big Daddy, do you know, here's a pub quiz thing for you that you'll never thank me for
1:05:13
his real name was Shirley. Didn't know that. No, well, very few people did
1:05:18
It's just one of those things that's stuck in my childhood brain. His real name was Shirley, and he was just a big old fella in a swimsuit
1:05:25
and his great nemesis was Giant Haystacks, and Mick McManus, Saturday afternoons on the telly
1:05:31
I don't know whether it was fake or not, that iteration of wrestling, but I like to think that Big Daddy Cool was a little nod
1:05:37
towards Big Daddy Shirley, but we'll probably never know. That's not why you rang in
1:05:42
it's not i just thought it was quite fun it is thank you no i i mostly wanted to concentrate
1:05:49
on the second point about what what you want for now and it's it's less of a specific policy thing
1:05:56
more of a kind of general um point about politics um and it's we um i feel like we are infantilizing
1:06:09
our conversation so much and we have we've made it such a not just a polarizing debate but such a
1:06:15
factional debate that we've just lost the ability to actually debate issues and about how we go about
1:06:23
solving them with this kind of the i guess the fairly new thing of everyone being a populist
1:06:30
like you've got nigel farage being a populist you've got zach polanski being a populist
1:06:34
that seems to be a very easy get out rather than actually going let's actually look at their
1:06:40
policies and if you don't like them explain why you don't think they're good policies or explain
1:06:46
why you don't think they'll work rather than the fact that they are a populist automatically
1:06:51
disqualifying everything that they say but people i mean i i think this is going to sound a bit rude
1:06:56
i suppose but there are plenty of people doing that on on both fronts i don't know whether your
1:07:01
algorithms are keeping them i mean some some of the green party's economic advice and economic
1:07:07
policies has been dissected in incredible detail by um i think dan needle's done it uh the the um
1:07:14
the lawyer who brought down nadim zahawi and certainly farage has promised that if you vote
1:07:21
for me your life will get better because i deport that person over the road is it barely worthy of ysis is it it so obviously rubbish but i i agree with you but what I not seeing is that within the political space I not seeing like I think one of the reasons
1:07:35
I mean, this is opposition squared, though. They don't really offer up meaningful policies
1:07:39
One side is saying, blame everything, hurt the foreigners enough, and your life will get better
1:07:44
And the other side is saying, hurt the billionaires enough, and your life will get better
1:07:48
Now, listen, if I have to pick a populist, I'm always going to go for the one who isn't a fascist
1:07:51
So if it comes down to a choice between populists, it's no contest for me
1:07:57
But by definition, they don't provide detail or substantive policy platforms. So it's impossible to do what you suggest
1:08:06
You look at any dig deep into, for example, a wealth tax is a fascinating thing to do
1:08:13
But there's very little precedent through which to examine it. And there's very little consistency through which to test it
1:08:19
Because when people say, if you introduce that, I won't be around to pay it
1:08:23
a lot of them are, as we have discovered in recent years, a lot of them are telling the truth
1:08:28
That might well be true. I think, I don't want to go too deep into it, but the point on a wealth tax is that
1:08:36
yes, people might leave, but the literal assets that are here, like all of the buildings
1:08:42
You'd still be able to take a slice of. But I've read, I mean, I have read yses of this
1:08:47
but I don't know who you would want to be leading the charge against it, as it were
1:08:52
the idea that we're not examining it enough. Thank you, MJ. I'm just glancing at the clock and noting that Catherine West
1:09:00
the MP who was talking about triggering a leadership challenge against Keir Starmer before the speech this morning, has moved
1:09:08
She's made her move. Clearly not sufficiently impressed by that speech. Indeed, she has said that it was good, but it doesn't outweigh the results from last Thursday
1:09:20
So she is now gathering the names of Labour MPs to call on Sir Keir Starmer
1:09:24
to set a timetable for the election of a new leader, which rather puts an entirely different complexion on my question from eight minutes ago
1:09:32
Do you want a new leader? 0345 6060 973. More on that breaking news story with Natasha Clarke, our political editor, after this
1:09:42
James O'Brien on LBC. It is 90 minutes after 12, and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:09:49
where, as I revealed a moment ago, we have some breaking news
1:09:53
And it involves Catherine West, an MP with an interesting record of prioritising principle over personal advancement
1:10:01
And I think it's important to bear that in mind as the predictable cavalcade of calls for people pointing out
1:10:07
that they've never heard of her. It says more about you than it does about her
1:10:12
What's going on, Natasha? Yes, James. So she's just sent a letter to, well, a text, a tweet at least, according to the reports that we're seeing
1:10:21
which is basically calling on colleagues to put their names down to a leadership challenge to Sikir Starmer
1:10:29
So she's canvassing whether she can get the 81 MPs that she needs in order to formally trigger a leadership contest
1:10:35
And that is Song's candidate. You just need the names. You don't need to have put forward a potential alternative or not
1:10:42
I'm actually not sure exactly on that, but I do believe that you do need to put down a name to those challenges
1:10:49
I think there does need to be attached... That might be her. She might be the one
1:10:52
She may put it down under her name. But I do think it needs to be attached to a name
1:10:58
as far as I understand the Labour Party rules, which are quite complicated. But she says that she's listened to the Prime Minister's speech
1:11:04
that she welcomes the renewed energy and ideas, but has reluctantly concluded that this morning's speech
1:11:09
was too little too late. And actually, that's something else. Another MP text me today when I asked them how they thought this speech went and what their response to it was
1:11:18
They said all too little, too late. So I've been asking MPs all morning what they think of it
1:11:23
And it's fair to say it's not quite inspired them as much as I think Keir Starmer absolutely hoped that today would
1:11:30
And that many people now are looking to those leadership rivals, to Catherine West, to Wes Stoeting, to Angela Rayner
1:11:36
to see whether they share those frustrations like Catherine West and feel that the time is now right for a leadership contest
1:11:43
It's a very febrile atmosphere in Westminster this morning, James. Indeed it is
1:11:48
So, Streetsing kind of let it be known over the weekend that if there is a battle, obviously I'll be part of it
1:11:55
The rest have kept their powder relatively dry. Burnham's path to Downing Street, of course
1:11:58
has one rather large obstacle in it, namely that he's not currently a member of Parliament
1:12:04
is there an argument for suggesting they could have waited until after the king's speech which
1:12:10
is only on wednesday and we'll set out the next program for government or not yes huge argument
1:12:16
and it's obviously um it's going to be hugely embarrassing if indeed the king does have to get
1:12:20
up and and an mp has already triggered a leadership contest for what could be the next poor old king
1:12:25
prime minister having a right old time but he's pulling victory from the jaws of humiliation at
1:12:29
every turn at the moment exactly and to be fair that has been used as an argument in the past oh
1:12:33
let's not embarrass the Queen, let's not embarrass the King, in that sense. And it does work with MPs
1:12:38
It's an argument that's quite a tried-and-tested one. But equally, it's not one that MPs are mentioning to me, at least today
1:12:45
as a reason why they will not go over the top. I do think it's clear that they've got a small window of opportunity
1:12:50
within the next few days. And that's why the King's speech was put here, right, James? This is why the government have decided to schedule the speech for this day
1:12:57
to try to curb and get ahead of any leadership challenge. But equally, it doesn't seem to be working
1:13:02
they are still arguing about whether they're going to do this or not. Do we..
1:13:07
Well, I don't suppose we do really, do we? I mean, in terms of the rubric, she perhaps goes forward as a stalking horse
1:13:12
and then if they get the 80-odd votes that they need, it's quite prosaic to read this
1:13:16
Please reply yes if you think this is the right thing to do. Your name will not be made public for now
1:13:21
It just seems a little odd, given that they could be choosing the next Prime Minister. Does it read you like a spam text
1:13:27
For customer service? It does, doesn't it? Press three for merch. Shall we have a little look back at the speech that you feel
1:13:33
Well, in your considered opinion, is Keir Starmer's position the same, worse or better than it was at 10 o'clock this morning
1:13:42
That's a good question. I think it's probably a small amount better. I think that, you know, if you're an MP that wants to put off a leadership contest
1:13:49
you will be able to point to a few things in that speech and say, you know, Keir did roll up his sleeves
1:13:54
Keir did give us a little bit of... Literally and metaphorically. For sure. And he gave us a little bit more of what we've been asking from him
1:14:00
But I think many people will say it is just not going to cut the mustard
1:14:04
It is just not enough. And that's exactly what my inbox is filling up with
1:14:08
But in terms of the speech generally, I thought that actually he was probably stronger on the argument why not to replace him rather than the argument why he should stay
1:14:18
And you remember, James, you know, it was an argument not well made enough by the Remain campaign
1:14:24
and many people said that was too project fair at the time. Do you see what I'm trying to say
1:14:28
Of course I do. So she has backed down in a way by calling for the Prime Minister to set a timetable
1:14:33
for the election of a new leader in September. Was she not poised to go further than that
1:14:39
if the speech had been even less impressive, to nominate her? She was going to ask Labour MPs to nominate her
1:14:45
if the speech was a 2 out of 10, but if it's a 6 or 7 out of 10
1:14:50
she's going to ask the Prime Minister to set a timetable for departure in September
1:14:54
which doesn involve a challenge immediately And if it had been a 10 out of 10 she have packed up and gone home That what she said yesterday So her sort of plan was three if it were The first was I want Cabinet to launch a coup by the end of the day
1:15:06
and if they don't, then I will put my name forward. Right, so that's not happening. So the Cabinet coup hasn't happened
1:15:12
She then said she wanted the chair of the Labour Party to come up with a timetable for a leadership election
1:15:17
That obviously isn't happening either. So she's now on part three, which is that she's saying that she or another member of parliament will be launching a leadership challenge
1:15:27
So she is now saying that she's collecting names of Labour MPs to call on the Prime Minister to set a timetable for an election
1:15:32
But she does say that that shouldn't happen next. Now, this helps one person, and that's Andy Burnham, because he is not in parliament right now
1:15:39
So if you are, for example, thinking today as Wes Streeting or Angela Rayner and thinking that you've got a better chance of defeating just one of those candidates
1:15:47
the question will be now do you come out today and say it should be me and it should be now
1:15:52
because you've already got one of your rivals out of the picture if indeed you wait six months you
1:15:57
wait till september there's a chance that andy burnham has a seat in parliament and that list
1:16:01
of candidates that could beat you is growing ever longer so that's the question that they are weighing
1:16:05
up today and and so if she even if she gets the numbers i don't think either of us are going to
1:16:11
be clear on this there's no actual leverage then in the in the absence of a challenge it will just
1:16:16
she will let it be known how many people have signed up to her plan
1:16:20
and therefore Keir Stummer will decide whether or not that is enough people to force his hand
1:16:25
Yes, well, I mean, it obviously gives Number 10 an idea of the strength of feeling, but it does not trigger a leadership contest, as far as I understand it
1:16:31
unless you have 81 names. And also, you get Catherine's message there, she says..
1:16:35
But even with 81 names, reading what she said today, I don't think she is going to..
1:16:38
Exactly, it's not clear that she will be the person to put her name forward because she has to either put her name forward
1:16:42
or there has to be somebody willing to do so. And at the moment, we do think there are enough names
1:16:47
but are they going to be attached to Catherine West will be the challenger? And I think that's still unclear
1:16:52
But she says at the end of that message, your name will not be made public for now. The whole point of this is that these names are going to have to be made public
1:16:58
That's the whole way that this Labour... Otherwise it's a meaningless figure, isn't it? Well, that's how the Tories did it. They did it with these secret letters, and you never have to put your name to it
1:17:04
And people say that the Labour argument in the Labour way is a little bit better. And also, Labour don't have a 1922 committee
1:17:11
So they don't have that tradition of going to visit the Prime Minister and saying you've lost the fair
1:17:17
So this is, I mean, it's curiously unsatisfying. Yeah, it totally is
1:17:21
And it's not quite sort of the same sort of process. You've got the chair of the Labour Party, Anna Turley, who could be in charge of the leadership
1:17:28
So instead of the men in grey suits of the Tory party, you have the woman in a red suit of Anna Turley
1:17:34
that could be marching up to the Prime Minister and saying your time is up. She's not doing that
1:17:37
She's obviously facing a lot of pressure. and I think it's fair to say that she understands that there is frustration with the Prime Minister
1:17:45
with the Labour leadership, but is there enough pressure in order to launch a leadership challenge
1:17:49
Well, she can't say yes until she has got 81 MPs and a name
1:17:54
Those are the Labour Party rules as we understand them, so she cannot act at the moment. Yeah. Watch this space. Up to about 37 at the last time of checking
1:18:02
Yeah, I think there's a few more actually. I last saw 40 when I was looking earlier
1:18:06
but yes just to come back to the speech I don't know if you wanted to hear any of the speech
1:18:11
why didn't you get a question I know I know sorry I did ask I'm beginning to get offended on your behalf now
1:18:15
but they ask these outfits that have got like 11 viewers or 12 readers and we've got one and a half million
1:18:21
so why the hell aren't you getting a question who do I need to shout at I'll give you some numbers after the show
1:18:26
I'm not even joking I'll get Eleanor to do it she's much more frightening than I am
1:18:30
but I mean seriously what's the point of having the biggest audience in the business if you don't get a question
1:18:34
at the Prime Minister's Press Conference. Yeah, but look, in fairness, there was lots of other journalists
1:18:41
that didn't get questions. There's about 40 journalists in the room. Big, big, big amount of people there
1:18:45
So, anyway, I'll better be getting one next time or I won't be showing up. But yes, just going back to the speech
1:18:50
I thought that there was two interesting points. One was obviously on closer ties to Europe
1:18:57
This is what he had to say on whether we should be essentially going back to the customs union or the single market
1:19:02
What I want to do is take a big leap forward with the EU-UK summit this year
1:19:08
and take us closer both on trade, the economy, defence and security
1:19:14
And that will then be a platform on which we can build as we go forward
1:19:20
And as we do that, I strongly believe we've got to turn our back on the arguments of the past
1:19:26
not open old grievances, but look forward together to how we make this country stronger
1:19:33
how we make this country fairer. And so that's the approach that I will take
1:19:37
So I thought it was interesting, James, because obviously we were seeing that this speech was being built up as a big policy shift, but that to me didn't feel like a big announcement. It
1:19:45
wasn't like him saying, hey, I'm ready to take us back into the customs union. I'm ready to
1:19:49
do a deal. He made very much the big argument that we should be closer to Europe, but he's been
1:19:53
making that argument for quite a long time. And I think a lot of people, a lot of MPs were hoping
1:19:57
for a bit more from that speech from the Prime Minister today in terms of actual policy announcements
1:20:03
Or even an ambition, but an ambition would almost certainly be dashed by a combination of
1:20:07
what European Union membership actually means and the British domestic political situation
1:20:12
making any promises negotiated by this Prime Minister, liable to be blown up by the arsonist
1:20:18
who is in line to become the next Prime Minister. Exactly. And that leads me on to my second final
1:20:23
point, which is that I thought actually his argument about Nigel Farage was possibly the
1:20:27
strongest moment of his speech. Here's what he had to say about the Reform UK leader
1:20:31
Only Labour values and Labour policies can ensure our country not only weathers these storms, but emerges
1:20:39
stronger and fairer. And the Labour case that neither Nigel Farage nor Zach Polanski offers our country
1:20:47
the serious progressive leadership that these times demand. And arguably, I think that people do feel that his sort of attacks on Nigel Farage
1:21:01
I thought it was interesting, he goes for them both, doesn't he? He clearly is being squeezed by both of those two parties
1:21:06
and that's an admission in his Save My Skin speech, that he has having to attack to both sides
1:21:11
But yeah, I just generally came out of that speech thinking that the argument for why we should keep him in
1:21:17
because Nigel Farage has to be kept out, that felt like a stronger argument than why we should keep him
1:21:22
is Prime Minister, why the Labour Party should, you know, it felt like the positive case for him
1:21:26
wasn't made strongly enough, and the Project Fear argument for, oh, well, what if we get Nigel Farage
1:21:31
felt like the stronger one, and I just, I don't know if MPs, no, I don't think MPs are going to
1:21:36
be feeling too confident about that when they come to make their decisions about leadership later
1:21:39
today. Thank you, Natasha. Natasha Clark, LBC's political editor there, offering up her ysis
1:21:46
of Keir Starmer's speech earlier. I continue to canvas yours, and you can contribute it in all
1:21:51
the usual ways with that little third side order now which has been sort of both
1:21:55
highlighted and somewhat diminished by Catherine West's hokey-cokey. Do you want a different leader
1:22:02
Do you want someone else to have a go? 12.31 is the time and Amelia Cox
1:22:05
has your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC. 12.34 is the time and
1:22:11
you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. There is a story that
1:22:15
speaks to some of the misgivings that Keir Starmer sought to so about Zach Polanski, the leader of the Green Party
1:22:22
And these stories are becoming worryingly common from his point of view You be aware of questions regarding his claim not to have lived on a houseboat but merely to have stayed there occasionally while when it was put up for
1:22:38
sale, it was written that he and his partner had lived there very happily for three years
1:22:43
Dan Needle, who I mentioned earlier, is digging into that, and that doesn't currently look very
1:22:50
good for the Green Party leader. I don't know what you make of this story. The Telegraph is
1:22:54
encouraging you to get very excited about. I find it funny, but also perhaps interesting
1:23:01
Populism and opportunism go hand in hand, and some populists get away, get their opportunism forgiven
1:23:07
but some populists will not get their opportunism forgiven. And sadly, I've got a horrible feeling
1:23:10
that if you're an opportunist or rather a populist from the left, then you're going to be judged a lot more harshly for your opportunism
1:23:17
than you are if you're a populist from the right. So this was a claim from Zach Polanski
1:23:22
that he worked at the Ministry of Justice. when he was campaigning to become deputy leader of the Greens in 2020
1:23:29
He wrote, currently working at the Ministry of Justice on their training and diversity programmes, which sounds great
1:23:35
But they've actually dug into this. And this is the problem. When someone digs into your CV and finds either a falsehood
1:23:44
or an embellishment or an exaggeration, the problem for Zach Polanski is that they won't stop digging
1:23:50
So they phoned up the Ministry of Justice and they said they'd never heard of him
1:23:56
So then they phoned up Zach Polanski's people and they said he actually worked for the Justice Assessment Committee
1:24:03
which no one has been able to find any evidence of the existence of
1:24:07
In fact, you could go so far as to state that this committee does not exist
1:24:12
The only reference in the public domain to a Justice Assessment Committee
1:24:16
appears to have been made by Zach Polanski himself at City Hall in 2024
1:24:20
So they went back for further comment and finally, at the third or fourth time of asking, he admitted that when he said he was working at the Ministry of Justice, what he had been actually doing was role-playing
1:24:35
He'd been hired through an agency, because he's also been an actor, who provided actors to pretend to be criminals or prison guards or lawyers for the judges' recruitment process
1:24:48
So when you're auditioning a judge, as it were, when you're trying out a judge
1:24:53
you have a fake courtroom full of actors pretending to be various people
1:24:58
That's what Zach Polanski was doing when he claimed he was working at the Ministry of Justice
1:25:04
on their training and diversity programme. So again, you know, whether there's fire yet is up to you, really
1:25:11
but there's a heck of a lot of smoke. 12.37 is the time. Darren is in Hammersmith to steer us back to Starmer
1:25:17
Darren, what would you like to say? Hello, James. If you remember, I've got a slight stutter, so please be gentle with me
1:25:21
Always, always, always. Thank you, sir. To my mind, this morning hasn't done much because it still fails to address the thing that I think the Labour Party consistently find themselves foul of
1:25:33
which is remembering that most people, unlike people that listen to the show, unlike you and I, people that are focused on the detail
1:25:40
most people focus on the headlines because most people, politics are quite boring. and what they routinely
1:25:48
don't seem to cut through on is those headlines and it allows them to get stuck
1:25:55
with things that are out of date and to my mind if they want to do the politics
1:25:59
that they need to do which is that so boring backgroundy stuff that changes the
1:26:04
actual foundation of things that are broken they need something like a great YouTube channel
1:26:08
something that cuts through on social media, tells exactly what they've been doing every week and people can see that but they don't do that
1:26:13
What they do is they sort of stuck in like a yesteryear form of communication
1:26:17
And this speech this morning was just more of whatever the problem is
1:26:21
as opposed to what the solution is going to be. And that's the bit that, unfortunately, that's the bit on Friday
1:26:26
that was quite clear is people are desperate for the headline-grabbing solution
1:26:32
or something to explain. No, not even at all. I don't think people are at all
1:26:37
I think they've given two years. They haven't cut through on the headlines. and in second part
1:26:43
is he does he need to do I want him to go
1:26:47
No, because I also recognise that they saw the yo-yo of Prime Minister thing
1:26:51
it doesn't work for us it's just not good for the economy it's not good for anything but I also recognise
1:26:55
he's going to have to go because as I said with the Peter Mendelsohn thing this guy is now the storage
1:27:00
where you can't get any work done and I just I'm more disappointed
1:27:04
with the Liberal Democrats than anybody else because because they I think there's a lot of people
1:27:09
like me that are moderate politics, and that's who Liberal Democrats generally appeal to
1:27:15
I love this. I don't really want to talk about it. I don't operate in the far extremes of reform
1:27:22
or the far extremes of the Greens. I nearly did a phone..
1:27:27
As you know, don't tell anyone what I'm about to tell you, Darren. Let's just keep it between us, all right
1:27:31
Thank you. I wanted to do a phone-in about a week and a half
1:27:36
or just before Perder kicked in, on why that, why don't we talk about the Liberal Democrats more
1:27:42
And reason number one I didn't do it was because, of course, I'd be leaving myself open to constant accusations of being part of the problem
1:27:49
not the solution, even though I was asking the question in good faith. And reason number two was, it's a bit like when Ed Davey came on on Friday
1:27:56
I don't know if you were listening, and the first thing I said to him was, doesn't it bother you that you don't get anything like the attention
1:28:01
unless you dress up as a chicken or jump out of a helicopter, you don't get anything like the attention that all the other parties get
1:28:07
I asked him while he was down in Portsmouth giving away free coffee. And he said, oh, I don't mind about that at all
1:28:14
And I just felt if I did a phone-in on it, I'd almost be making the problem worse, not better
1:28:19
Because I agree with you. He seems to me to be the most authentic party leader that we've got
1:28:25
or certainly in the top two, and a decent man who's driven by some really powerful principles
1:28:31
And yes, you know, he sold a slice of his soul when he joined the coalition government
1:28:35
but that's politics as pragmatism. and he's got a ton of MPs
1:28:39
and he's just got a really good result from a high start, unlike the other people who got good results from incredibly low starts
1:28:45
And yet, what can they do? What can they do to get the sort of attention
1:28:50
that you quite rightly identify them as never getting? It doesn't feel like they're even trying to do anything
1:28:56
That is the problem. Oh, they are. They're desperate for more attention and more coverage
1:29:01
Where do you see that? Where do you see that anywhere? Where do you see that in crossing the paths
1:29:10
Where are the headlines? Well, I mean, not to be indiscreet, but they will be reaching out to broadcasters
1:29:17
offering up Ed Davey for interviews and what have you all the time
1:29:22
But because he's not a populist or in power, it's quite hard for people to see..
1:29:27
Or the headlines, or working the headlines. That's what I mean by populist
1:29:32
That's what I mean by populist. Lib Dems announced something sensible, and mildly popular that wouldn't offend anybody or involve any innocent people getting punched in
1:29:41
the face or deported it's not going to get anything like the attention that farage's latest
1:29:45
bilious belch is going to get would it all that happens is all that happens is it just leaves
1:29:51
another another day in another year of people that understand the problems that care that care
1:29:56
that care speaks about quite correctly and also understand that actually we
1:29:59
I want the sort of nasty messages of the... I know, I know, I know, and the Lib Dems, I'm like you, I'm like you
1:30:06
I'm sorry for talking over you, but I just want to cross live, or not live, Angela Rayner giving a speech at the moment at the Communication Workers' Union
1:30:13
and she's gone perhaps a little bit further than some people might have expected
1:30:18
telling a conference that Andy Burnham should never have been blocked from standing in a by-election this year
1:30:24
something she probably couldn't or wouldn't have said had she still been Deputy Leader of the Labour Party
1:30:28
but of course her own difficulties with her house purchase and failure to properly understand and pay stamp duty due
1:30:36
meant that she couldn't stay in that role. Have a little listen to what Angela Rayner has been saying in the last few minutes
1:30:43
It's no wonder that across the UK people feel that the system is rigged against them
1:30:50
and the Labour Party must now live up to its name. We must be the party for working people
1:30:57
The Prime Minister today acknowledged the frustration that was expressed last week
1:31:04
But we will be judged on actions and not just our words
1:31:09
I'm proud of our Labour values But they're not enough if we do not have a plan to put them into practice
1:31:18
It's no good acknowledging the mistakes if they're not put right so let me be honest conference
1:31:27
we as a party have to do better than this and we can only prove we mean our Labour values
1:31:37
by putting the common interest ahead of factionalism and we can start by accepting that Andy Burnham should never have been blocked
1:31:47
it was a mistake that the leadership of our party should put right
1:31:52
That feels quite significant because it is a fairly hefty shot across the bowels of the party leadership
1:32:04
even though she was the second most senior member of it until not long before that decision regarding Andy Burnham was taken
1:32:12
I wouldn't read any more than that into it at the moment, whether or not you're looking at a double ticket
1:32:17
or whether or not she's queuing up Burnham for a return. And I think she's just pointing out that she is perfectly capable of both attacking and embarrassing the party leadership
1:32:30
And more importantly, perhaps, because we kind of knew that already, that she is increasingly prepared to do so
1:32:37
It's coming up to quarter to one. Henry Riley back in the studio after this with, well, I don't think you get any prizes for guessing what
1:32:46
James O'Brien on LBC. Well, 47 is the time. It's not to make light of this hideousness
1:32:52
but you could almost spin the wheel with the new phalanx of councillors and politicians
1:32:58
coming into public life on Nigel Farage's coattails. You could spin a wheel that has got words like racism on it
1:33:05
or anti-Semitism, which is, of course, a form of racism, but I think one that deserves its own category
1:33:12
particularly in the current climate. and then you'll have sundry other grievances and horror shows
1:33:20
that are likely to be persuaded. Hatred of Muslims, no doubt, will be there as well
1:33:24
But I think it would be a little bit disrespectful to the actual victims of this bile to have an actual wheel
1:33:32
Instead, we've got Henry Riley, who will not be able to conduct Riley reform roundup indefinitely because as you may or may not be aware Henry is very much the coming man here at LBC And he not only has his own radio shows but he often out on manoeuvres So we going to spread it around But in our hearts it will always be Riley
1:33:52
reform roundup, even as we rename it something like the road to 5 million. Isn't that an
1:33:58
interesting illustration of a diversity in a book that you can go from 30p Lee to 5 million Farage
1:34:04
in the space of a single party. Isn't that nice and uplifting? What have you got, Henry
1:34:08
And welcome back. I'm blushing. Thank you, James. There's quite a few. I think we'll probably start with the biggest sort of story
1:34:15
that's come out of those council elections, which is an individual called Glenn Gibbons
1:34:20
who was elected to Sunderland City Council on Thursday slash Friday morning
1:34:26
He is currently under investigation following allegations of racism. Now, as I mentioned, he's in Sunderland
1:34:33
One of the leading Reform UK voices there is Darren Grimes, who's Deputy Leader of the Council
1:34:39
He was asked about the comments, which I'll tell you in a moment, on the BBC
1:34:45
Is that person still welcome in Reform UK? He's been suspended and the party is investigating those very serious allegations and will act on them
1:34:53
There is no... You found this out before he was elected? Well, yeah, it was a failure of the vetting process
1:34:58
I accept that. I do accept that. But Richard, I just wish the media would shine a spotlight on the way in which the Green Party have had candidates who have been arrested and all the rest of it
1:35:07
That's repeatedly about it. So he says there, Darren Grimes, that he's been suspended
1:35:13
I have been in touch with Reform UK and he's not been suspended, but he is being investigated
1:35:19
Of course, you can be both suspended and investigated. But he hasn't been suspended. He hasn't been suspended
1:35:23
Do we think Grimes is being crafty or do we think that he just didn't know
1:35:28
Well, I mean, certainly he said it with a lot of confidence, so unclear at the moment
1:35:33
You know, I'm sure he wouldn't knowingly lie. So what did this character actually say
1:35:38
If indeed you can repeat it on the radio. I can repeat it, but I would give a warning that this is obviously incredibly offensive
1:35:44
so apologies in advance. But he wrote, and I sort of say it verbatim
1:35:49
can't, spelled C-A-R-N-T, believe amount of Nigerians in town should melt them all down and fill in the potholes
1:35:56
which was exposed by the campaign group Hope Not Hate. And these comments were actually exposed before the elections
1:36:06
a few days before by that campaign group. But nonetheless, this individual has been elected
1:36:10
was still Reform UK on the ballot, still hasn't been suspended, but is being investigated. And the party's deputy leader, Richard Tice
1:36:16
was asked about this again on the BBC yesterday. We have an internal party process
1:36:20
But here's the point. It's not a very good one if somebody expresses that can be elected. We've heard all the smearing and the sneering
1:36:25
Let me tell you what people are really concerned about. No, forgive me. Laura, Laura, I'm going later to a campaign
1:36:31
against the scourge of anti-Semitism, right, which is the greatest threat facing us here in
1:36:39
particularly in London, elsewhere across the UK. That's what people are really concerned about
1:36:43
We've stood up strongly for the Jewish community. And if people have said daft things
1:36:48
of course it'll be looked at. So that would have, Richard, just to confirm then
1:36:52
And so Glenn Gibbons, investigation ongoing, not currently suspended. It's interesting when Tyson, even Farage himself, tried to cloak themselves in the clothes of people who are opposed to anti-Semitism
1:37:06
not least because of Farage's reported rhetoric when he was at school
1:37:11
and subsequently, of course, when he was contemned for talking about a Jewish lobby and the rest of it
1:37:16
when I think he was working here. But their own raft of candidates is likely to throw up a few examples of anti as well Well yes there is someone who been elected as a Reform UK councillor who described the Holocaust as a hoax
1:37:30
This is J. Leslie Cooper, who won a seat in Bootle West, which is part of Sefton Council
1:37:36
It was actually broken by the local newspaper, the Liverpool Echo, and they were alleged to have said on Facebook last year about Adolf Hitler
1:37:45
quotes, I don't agree with him murdering innocent people, but the Holocaust, spelt with an A, spelt wrong, is a hoax
1:37:53
This wasn't, sorry, there wasn't even 6 million Jews in Europe at the time propaganda
1:37:58
Wow. Now, on that individual, they have been elected, but Reform UK say that he has resigned the whip
1:38:05
and his membership is in the process of being revoked. The party previously said they were looking into the allegations
1:38:12
and, as you might expect, they've been roundly criticised, these comments. And what's interesting is he's actually the only Reform UK candidate elected in that ward
1:38:22
The other two were won by Labour. This individual managed to beat the third Labour candidate
1:38:28
and be the top-performing Reform UK on the ballot paper candidate. Do you know why
1:38:34
Look at his name. Cooper. Yeah. High up. Alphabetical order. Often happens
1:38:39
Yeah, it's an extraordinary anomaly in the British electoral system. and Jim Watterson on London Sendrick was writing about it the weekend
1:38:45
He'd done some research and statistics into it. It's incredible, but because it goes in alphabetical order
1:38:50
we are more likely to put a cross next to the name near the top of it than we are near the bottom
1:38:55
Think of Adam Afrayi, the Conservative candidate. He's laughing, yeah. So indeed is Aaron Aardvark
1:39:01
who I believe is running for the Monster Raving Looney Party. Carry on, Henry
1:39:05
This is a curious one. So he's gone, but he's fallen on his sword rather than being..
1:39:09
So no one yet has actually been punished by the party. Although his membership is in the process of being revoked, but he did resign the whip
1:39:17
Another story, this is Michael Quigley, who's one of three reform candidates who won the Houghton South Ward on Sunderland City Council
1:39:26
Now, James, there's a sort of curious back and forth between me and reform on this, so let me read you what he said, and I'll let you interpret
1:39:32
Why don't we put our defence forces to use and defend our borders
1:39:36
Anyone attempting to enter our sovereign territory without going through the proper channels will be shot on sight and transferred to a holding island where they will be given one day to present their documents or confirm their true nationality so they can be safely escorted to their home, wherever that may be
1:39:52
Enough with this farting about the endless boats escorted in the country
1:39:59
I did put those comments to Reform UK, noting he's been elected to Sunderland City Council
1:40:04
they say a source in reform says he was talking about the boats in terms of shooting rather than
1:40:11
the people he even says they should be transferred to a holding island where they'll be given one day
1:40:16
anyone attempting to enter our sovereign territory the exact phrase anyone attempting
1:40:20
attempting to enter our sovereign territory without going through the proper channels will
1:40:24
be shot on site although he does say later on and transferred to a holding island yeah
1:40:28
um reform saying that he was referring to the boats so it's not clear if there's an
1:40:33
investigation into him. Three for three. We've got to get this up to five million by the next
1:40:37
election. Oh, yeah, I was hearing. Five million examples. What else have we got
1:40:41
One more. This is Daniel Devani, who is, he actually topped the polls again
1:40:47
on D, on Bradford's... Double D. Double D. Yeah. Who topped the poll on Bradford
1:40:55
City Council's ward of Clayton and Fairweather. He one of two reform candidates elected on the ballot The third was the Labour Party But he was dropped during the election but he still was reform on the ballot The party
1:41:09
have been in touch with me today to confirm that there is an investigation ongoing
1:41:14
but that he may not be suspended. So this is the curious
1:41:17
thing. He was dropped during the election but Reform UK, I specifically asked, was he suspended
1:41:22
They said there's an investigation ongoing not suspended, even though he was dropped. Anyway, he said
1:41:27
he described Muslims as pure scum, later clarifying, I said it when I was in a bad mood
1:41:34
and watching TV. It was on and I just let off steam
1:41:37
They're not scum. It was a bad thing to say. I've offered to step down. He also said
1:41:42
I'm not racist as I help my Asian neighbours. I just want to do something for my community
1:41:46
And he apologised as well for that, but stood by his defence of Enoch Powell
1:41:51
Well, I suppose swings and roundabouts. It's a much more wholesome apology
1:41:55
than anything that Nigel Farage has ever offered up for his reported comments about Jews
1:42:00
But on the other hand, it seems unlikely that that's the kind of thing
1:42:03
that you would ever say, or indeed post online by accident. So one day in and four on the board
1:42:11
Four on the board. Is that it, do you think? Should we park it now, this feature
1:42:15
Or do you think there might be any more in the coming days, weeks, months, or even years
1:42:18
It's over 1,450 new reform, or re-elected reform candidates. We need five million stories
1:42:26
So, but there may be multiple stories. I mean, I wouldn't give up hope, James, if that's what you're saying
1:42:30
I mean, I think there could be multiple stories per candidate, not sort of wishing that, but, you know, that could be the lay of the land
1:42:36
Indeedy-doody. And we will keep a very close eye on proceedings. So, just to go back to Tice, he was shown, I mean
1:42:45
he was asked to comment on the candidate, successful candidate, suggesting that Nigerian people should be melted down
1:42:52
and used to fill in the potholes. and he refused to condemn that. And he sort of tried to divert the conversation to the Green Party
1:43:00
which is actually the... But you can do both. I mean, you could condemn that and then say
1:43:04
but the Greens have got questions to answer as well. Yes. But he didn't do that. He just refused to condemn the bloke who wants to melt down Nigerians
1:43:11
Or Darren Grimes sort of falsely claimed that he'd been suspended. Yeah, but we don't know whether that was crafty or ignorant, do we
1:43:17
And the Greens do have a lot of questions to answer, and they're quite likely to be popping up frequently as well
1:43:22
They do. And it's important to bring you Saika Ali, who was, this is one of the candidates
1:43:27
who was arrested over alleged anti-Semitism. They were actually elected to the St. Leonard's Ward in Lambeth Council
1:43:36
but still under the Green Party ticket, although the party say they couldn't, it was too late to remove that
1:43:40
And just to be clear, the Green Party have confirmed that they will sit as an independent
1:43:44
and that they have been suspended. I've got a favourite. Yeah. Have you come across Peter Reeve yet
1:43:51
I'm not quite sure where he is, but I can tell you what he said. I can tell you where he is, actually
1:43:55
Oh, he's good, isn't he? He is Huntingtonshire District Council. A recently elected councillor for Reform
1:44:03
Reform. Yeah. Yeah. Our message is UKIP's here, working hard with local communities
1:44:11
Sorry. Reform is here, working hard with local communities. And we... I've been doing this for the last 15 years
1:44:18
from the UKIP days all the way through to Reform. Oh. Henry Riley, thank you very much indeed
1:44:23
That's it from me for another day. If you missed any of today's show, you can listen back on our free Global Player app
1:44:27
or the LBC app, where you can also stay up to date with all the latest news videos and opinions. A range of podcasts, including James O'Brien Daily
1:44:33
Full disclosure, of course, this week with Philippa Perry. Download the official LBC app for free from your app store now
1:44:38
Tom Sawbricht with you at four on LBC. Sheila Fogarty with you now. James O'Brien on LBC

Starmer's speech to try to save his skin | James O’Brien - The Whole Show

Global - LBC

Has the Reform bubble burst? | James O'Brien reacts

Why Keir Starmer has failed to stop the rot | James O’Brien - The Whole Show

Farage On The Record | LBC Exclusive with Reform UK's Leader

'The tanks and guns will park on Andy Burnham's lawn' | James O’Brien - The Whole Show

Starmer’s closest allies assess his downfall

'He had fire in his belly!' | PMQs analysed

Starmer accuses Farage of exploiting Henry Nowak’s death

There's no guarantee Andy Burnham wins this by-election | James O’Brien - The Whole Show

Four ministers resign... but Starmer clings on

Starmer vs Burnham - The first punch has landed

Will Farage still be investigated by the Electoral Standards Commission?

Andrew Marr reacts as Starmer receives a standing ovation in final PMQs

Middle-class areas must house more asylum seekers, says PM | James O'Brien reacts

Andy Burnham's NHS warning | James O'Brien reacts

Does there need to be a Labour leadership contest? | James O’Brien - The Whole Show

Up next in 10

Starmer's speech to try to save his skin | James O’Brien - The Whole Show

Global - LBC