Why Keir Starmer has failed to stop the rot | James O’Brien - The Whole Show

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It's three minutes after ten and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
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And once you start, you just can't stop. I'm not talking about Pringles
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I am talking about rhyming. Once you start seeing the rhymes, you can't..
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Because the Starmer drama has now escalated into a streeting meeting. There is a... about which many people presumably are tweeting
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So they're tweeting the streeting meeting in the midst of the Starmer drama. a Prime Minister of course who should have been making things calmer
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I'm going to try to stop now but I'm going to struggle
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so please bear with me it was supposed to be anyone else just hear a streets lyric kick in there
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it was supposed to be so easy it was supposed to be
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a sea change it was supposed to represent an end to a very overused word, not least by me, psychodrama
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It was supposed to be the end of psychodrama just two short years ago
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when a managerial and unexciting man, whether that's fair or not, that was his public persona, a managerial, competent, process-driven
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managerial politician was making his way into Downing Street after a succession of either morally bankrupt
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or intellectually inadequate predecessors. Or, in the case of Theresa May, I think a perfectly competent politician
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who was required to pretend that reality was not reality as a consequence of the Brexit vote
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I have no idea what the history books will have to say about Rishi Sunak as Prime Minister
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It feels already like a punctuation mark, doesn't it? A semicolon, perhaps
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A semicolon of a prime minister. It feels like a semicolon. I can't think off the top of my head of anything significant that he did
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The ridiculous Rwanda plan. I think he inherited, didn't he, and just refused to put in the bin
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He was, I presume, frightened of the response from people who had absolutely no idea what the numbers were
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and what the reality of that policy would have involved, i.e. most of his own party
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I look back on Rishi Sunak at the moment as a punctuation mark, and I don't mean that unkindly
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I just think he was, like, pressing pause on the poison that went before
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So if you have the morally bankrupt Boris Johnson, the intellectually absent Liz Truss
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then Rishi Sunak came along, who was neither morally bankrupt nor intellectually inadequate
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but he just pressed pause on a process that began in 2015
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or 2010 technically, but effectively in 2015, 2016. And Keir Starmer, whether you welcomed his election or not
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it was very fleeting, the streeting meeting, whether you welcomed his election or not
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Keir Starmer was supposed to stop the drama. He was supposed to usher in a period of
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whichever way you dice it, either calmness or dullness, or both, wasn't he
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I mean, that was the thing upon which almost everybody was agreed, that at least we're not going to have the ludicrous inter-Nissan warfare
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that typified so many of the previous years. Theresa May's premiership was absolutely characterised by inter-Nissan warfare
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And on the other side of the house, so, of course, was Jeremy Corbyn. Then along came Boris Johnson and tried to rip up all the rule books
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and almost got away with it. He probably would have got away with it if it wasn't for you pesky kids
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and if anyone in British politics has ever looked like a Scooby-Doo villain
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then Dominic Cummings would probably be the winner of all the prizes
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and then of course that brief foray of Liz Truss an attempt to prove that reality really doesn't matter
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a sort of premiership built upon the presumption that financial gravity doesn't exist
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and that went well as you know and then as I say the semicolon the pause politician
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the pause-button politician, Rishi Sunak, who was never really equipped or entitled
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to make massive and meaningful change to the country, but at least he wasn't Boris Johnson or Liz Truss
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So everyone sort of gave him a bit of a break. So much so, of course, that his succession to the leadership
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was entirely unchallenged, because even the Conservative Party that had put Liz Truss in charge
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by that point had sort of thrown their arms up in the air and just gone, please, please make it stop
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and Keir Starmer made it stop. And he was supposed, of course
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to make lots of other things stop as well. And those things most obviously were
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interneissime warfare, drama, and chaos. And this morning, again, whether you like it or not
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because I'm struggling with the Venn diagram, How much of the brouhaha is media created and how much of the brouhaha is media reported
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I'm not struggling unduly because the election results of last week were catastrophic, but not unprecedented
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Catastrophic, but not unprecedented for the sitting government. The only thing unprecedented about those results was that the major party of opposition benefited not a jot from the epic unpopularity of the party of government
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That is unheard of. That is unprecedented. That is a mark of a very changing world
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But, I mean, it is obviously ridiculous to suggest that all of the talk of leadership change
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all of the talk of crisis, all of the talk of chaos, is down to journalists being addicted to drama
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In this case, of course, to starma drama. But when you've got the trade unions, 11 of the biggest unions
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effectively pulling the plug or calling time on a premiership, then it is a matter that extends far beyond the concerns of plutocrat, oligarch, right-wing media owners and their lickspittles
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I mean, this is the unions now saying that's enough to Keir Starmer, saying you can't go
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It doesn't mean it's true, it doesn't mean it will come to pass, but you can't pretend it doesn't matter
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You can't pretend it's all down to the Daily Mail or Rupert Murdoch, as I am sometimes tempted to do
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so he was supposed to stop the chaos he was supposed to stop the internecine warfare
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he was supposed to stop the um instability all of the things he was supposed to stop
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have not stopped again i don't think that's an opinion i think that's counting
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we could today have another conversation about who you want to be prime minister this time next year
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the fleeting streeting meeting in the middle of the starma drama suggests that the change were it
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to come is not going to be coming in the next 48 to 72 hours and when it does come it will be an
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announcement of a later change if it comes at all so i think i think the moment has passed
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in in terms of immediate and signal change but the moment of considering future change is absolutely still smack where we are
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Why has Keir Starmer failed to stop the rot? The democratic rot? The political rot
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Why? Because I do think it's important to take a broader sweep of recent history
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when you're talking about the state of the nation. It's ridiculous not to, frankly. Keir Starmer is a flawed man, but frankly, who isn't
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Answer, well, women. But they're flawed women. We are all flawed humans, aren't we
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Keir Starmer is not in the pay of foreign-based billionaires in the way that previous prime ministers and current party leaders are
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He is not detached entirely from economic reality in the way that Liz Truss was
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He is not dedicated to completely ignoring the rules and protecting his cronies from proper accountability and examination
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I mean, some of the stuff that went on under Boris Johnson would have stopped traffic if we lived in a country with a half-honest media
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I mean, even just little stuff like suggesting that they all need to form a square around Priti Patel
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and I think the second time she broke the ministerial code. And you look at how the right-wing media deals now
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with any breaches of the ministerial code and you have essentially a case study in epic hypocrisy
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And Keir Starmer has actually accepted resignations from politicians in his own cabinet
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who did things that would have probably got them promoted in a Boris Johnson cabinet
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So this idea, and everyone's doing it, I'm afraid, this idea that um that he is proving to be as bad as as predecessors is precisely what you would say
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if you had been um corrupt enough to defend his predecessors and i use the word corrupt
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very advisedly if you had been morally or materially corrupt enough to defend boris
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johnson in particular and liz truss as well then you would be desperate to pretend that where
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Keir Starmer finds himself now is in any way similar to where those two politicians took
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themselves and indeed the country. But you cannot argue with the failure to stop the chaos
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the failure to stem the inter-Nissan warfare, the failure to bring basic stability, dullness
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and stability were what was needed. And I think it is absolutely fascinating to ask you two
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questions. Why has Keir Starmer failed to stop the political rot? Why does it feel like we're in
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another cycle of chaos and competition? It was the one thing that I would probably have put money on
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two years ago, not happening. And here we are two years later. So why? Why has he? And I think
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And you may well prove me wrong with your answer to the first question, but I think intrinsic to that question is the question of responsibility
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How much of this, you've noticed this question just creeping up on the outside lane
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Is the country actually ungovernable? Have we reached a point as a consequence of various factors where no prime minister is ever going to get an even break
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It is going to become polarised, vicious, divisive and binary with essentially the main divide in British politics between being people who accept and acknowledge reality and people who peddle and pretend to believe in fantasy
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And not unlike what has happened in the United States of America, although you will struggle to find anybody who would mount a spirited defence of where the Democratic Party finds itself at the moment
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but a basic divide between reality and fantasy, between truth and lies
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And if you're governing in the world of truth, you are probably on a hiding to nothing
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You're probably on a hiding to nothing. So, why do you think Keir Starmer has failed to stop the rot
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and how much of it is down to him, how much of it is down to the person as opposed to the politics
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0345 6060 973 How much of Keir Starmer's current plight is his fault
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And how much is simply a consequence of circumstance? I am not going to answer that question at this point in proceedings
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partly because I can't with any great confidence but I am going to tell you
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as of 16 minutes after 10 this morning much to my own surprise after yesterday's program
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I kind of want him to stay put for now and possibly for the foreseeable
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because the more I contemplate the possible alternatives and what the delivery of those alternatives would involve
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the more I think better the devil you know that is a position from which I am very very persuadable
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but it's where I find myself now So, why has Keir Starmer failed to do the one thing that he seemed best qualified to do, stop the drama and the chaos
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How much of that failure is personal? How much of it is down to him
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And how much of it is political, down to the country that we now inhabit, the political environment in which we all live
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And just as a side order, I personally don't want any more chaos and instability
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and I don't see how a leadership challenge, a leadership battle of any type or ilk
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does anything but guarantee at least a good few more months of inter-Nissan warfare, instability and chaos
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0345 6060 973 is the number you need. 1017, I'm nearly there
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There is another question that we've never actually got round to asking, partly because it involves, I think
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speculating upon the motivation of slightly mad people. but the visceral personal hatred of Keir Starmer is unignorable
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and it will be driving a lot of the MPs and possibly even the union leaders
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who are calling time on his premiership it strikes me as being hideously unfair
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I mean by all means point out his dullness or his lack of charisma or critique his intonation
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but I mean apart from obvious lies online about his private life
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which of course all the usual suspects have signed up for What on earth explains why this relatively innocuous man
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has managed to excite such extraordinary levels of personal, vituperative dislike, even, and I don't like using this word in the context of politics
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even hatred. Is that enough to be going on with as we await the King's speech
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And while we await the King's speech, give me a little steer on how much dimblebee you want from me
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I don't really recognise anyone. I don't know what any of them are called. I've been doing this for 20 years. I still couldn't tell you the difference between a black rod and a pink stocking
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I I I I as I get older my facial recognition skills are diminishing so I probably won even recognise household name politicians as they make their way The only thing I can do with any confidence is describe to you the body language between Keir Starmer and Kemi Badenok
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as they make their way from the House of Commons, I think, to the House of Lords
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although possibly Westminster Hall. I don't even know where it takes place. 20-something years I've been covering the King's speech live
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Obviously, it was previously known as the Queen's speech. See, I'm not completely stupid
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And I still, if you put me on mastermind, I'd get zero on what goes on, what happens, who does what, where it all unfolds and what it means
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Except the body language between the two leaders. And here is the question, actually, pertinent to, you don't need to answer it
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pertinent to the question with regards to chaos, internecine warfare and instability
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when is the last time, genuine question, the Prime Minister and the leader of the opposition appeared civil
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as they made their way together down the corridors of power prior to the King's speech
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When was the last time they looked as if they would be able to break bread and enjoy a meal together
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What were the last two? The last leader of the opposition and Prime Minister
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Actually, that's a game. You can play that. Text me on 84850 or WhatsApp me on 03456060973
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Let's get the phone in, up and running after this. James O'Brien on LBC
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Cameron and Miliband is the most popular suggestion, and I guess that's true
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although we had some early indications under Ed Miliband's leadership of the Labour Party
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of just how completely hideous our newspapers were when they attacked his dead father
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in the most extraordinary of terms. But David Cameron was not either encouraging of
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or responsible for that hideousness. It was entirely on Paul Dacre, the editor of the Daily Mail
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dancing on the grave of a dead war hero. Absolutely extraordinary conduct
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But, of course, as Brexit edged ever closer, it became more and more in character, if you like
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But it's Starmer we're talking about today and his failure to do the one thing
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that enemies and admirers alike thought that he was best qualified to do
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to stop the drama. Anna is in Oxford to kick things off
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Anna, what would you like to say? Oh, hello. I was expected to be first on
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So my theory is, and I've had this theory for a long time before he actually became leader
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but I don't actually think he does have a lot of principles. I know you think he's a principled man, and obviously if you compare him to Farage, he is
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Anybody is. But looking at all the flip-flops even occurred really before he kind of got elected
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He used to be in Jeremy Corbyn's cabinet, and he said he supported Jeremy Corbyn's policies
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Now he doesn't support any of Jeremy Corbyn's policies. all of the stuff that everybody's gone through over and over child benefit cap welfare winter
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fuel that he's flip-flopped on pandering to trump and then not pandering to trump
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and my theory is it's because he's trying to play to two audiences so yesterday i had a look i wanted
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to see which members of the cabinet got donations from companies like private health care companies
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gambling companies things like that and the only member of the cabinet that there's ever been a
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member of the cabinet because she's not now obviously is reina is the one that hasn't had
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donations from any of those companies that potentially have conflict of interest so i mean
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it's a it's a fair point i just thought some people might roll their eyes at the frequency
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with which it's made but they do not give money nobody gives money to any politician or political
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party um without some expectation of something in return well hardly i mean there are a few i
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suppose glorious examples of it but hardly anyone does it whether it's on the left or the right
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yeah so so my so clearly if he's getting money from from various companies like that
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he is working for them whilst his backbenchers i think are more core labor old labor values
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they want to see the lives improve for their constituents the majority of them do
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and so there he is trying to basically pander to two completely conflicting uh wishes um and he
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cannot so he's trying to keep everybody happy and as a result he's keeping absolutely who should he
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annoy. He should annoy the big businesses. Then our economy suffers. I know. I mean, there's no perfect answer
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And there'll be considerably less money for all the things you care about, and I care about
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But betting companies, though. Betting companies. I mean, they've arrived on the working class
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It just makes my stomach turn, but I don't have a perfect
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answer. Well, nor does he, you see. That, to me, if you'd come at this from a slightly
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different angle, you could almost have been mounting a defense of him, but you're not. You're attacking him for not
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having a perfect answer to an imperfect world. Yeah. I mean, I also have another theory about why
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he's so disliked. Yeah, go on. So, you know, Biden was massively disliked, and there were reasons
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for that. And Trump doesn't get the same scrutiny for his mental
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health and his age, etc, etc. And I've got a theory that if you're
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Labour or Democrat, somehow the public does believe you stand for good. Yes. And even
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if you are a Republican yourself or a Tory or whatever, you still believe
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that somewhere inside, that the Labour and the Democrats are supposed to be the party that's helping
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people. So when you see someone like Biden or Keir Starmer not helping people, you
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have much higher standards, so you hold them to much higher standards than you would, for example, Boris Johnson
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you expect to be corrupt, you expect to lie, etc. It's almost like he's a headmaster
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or a parent. People expect him to be that stable, good person
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And people on the right are desperate to prove that they're actually
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frauds and hypocrites and people on the left are desperate to believe that they're not and so that
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level of scrutiny ramps up accordingly from all corners and all angles because that is how you end
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up hearing apparently sentient human beings trying to compare five million pound secret donations or
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one million pound public donations in in boris johnson's case from the same man after he was
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prime minister christopher harbourn bunged boris johnson a million quid um no questions asked and
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you see and hear people trying to compare that to sort of spectacles and suits and it's not entirely
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without foundation because keir starmer should have been turning down offers of free suits and
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spectacles not just turning down offers had they ever existed of millions and millions of pounds
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in his private current account or for his quotes office post prime ministerial office end quotes
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which um which is where boris johnson was when he got his million quid while living in the back
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garden of the bloke that owns jcb and anna's right i hate that she's right because it's not fair you
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see it right across the media as well you see people being held to much much higher standards
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if they subscribe to decency uh publicly um any evidence of tarnish or any evidence of bruises on
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their decency their own decency their own moral uh compass will be seized upon with an alacrity
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that barely applies to the people whose brand is immoral, to the people whose brand is greedy or racist or morally bankrupt
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And I don't know what you can do about that. It would be nice, of course, if the media was a little bit more balanced
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but it ain't. So it's all on Starmer for Anna, or at least most of it is
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I'm not convinced, as I pointed out, unless you've got an answer to what you should have done differently
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trying to ride two horses, because there are two horses for a Labour leader. You can't just say, right, we're looking after business
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and business will look after everybody else if you a Tory you can pretend to believe in trickle down economics if you Labour you know that the relationship between taxation and the population is the single most important element of our democracy If you a Tory you can kid yourself or truly believe
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as everyone on Tufton Street seems to do, that just making the richest people in the world ever
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ever, ever more richer will somehow be good for everybody else. John's in Fitzrovia. John, what would you like to say
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Well, really, first of all, I wanted to emphasize the fact that I was taught many, many, many years ago
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British decline started in 1870 against its competitors. And we've been going downhill ever since
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What happened in 1870? It was the day we dropped down the league table against our major competitors, such as the States and Russia
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I don't know why. Was it sort of the end of the Industrial Revolution? Yeah, well, they were catching up
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And they started to pass us. Fair enough. And they've been doing so ever since
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and the empire bled us dry effectively. We made less money out of the empire, at least as a nation
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than it cost us to run it. And you see it all in that light
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And then everything we see from then on, you normally have to look back 20 or 30 years
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to get some idea of the time frame and then project forwards to the kind of solutions
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And because we don't live in China, where you have 5, 10, sorry, 10, 20, 30-year plans
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And the rest, yeah. You know, Starmer is trying to do this for 10 years, and that's a big ask
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In a society now that's media-driven, where they want to build up kind of crises, tensions and so on
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within, not during, within a 24-hour news cycle, or possibly less. And it places him in an almost impossible situation
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And not only that, certain elements of the media, the usual suspects
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are just going to come up with the same short critiques of him
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It's going to be repeated. There's a bit chicken and egg, though. This is a little bit chicken and egg
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because, you know, you cannot ignore what happened at the end of last week
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And that may be partly a consequence of what you're describing, but the consequence becomes the story
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Yes. I mean, it was a catastrophic set of results for Keir Starmer
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and he has signally failed to do the one thing that everybody thought he was going to do
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which is to stop the chaos, stop the inter-Nissan warfare, and stop the instability
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Are you arguing, John, that no one could? I think it's a big call for anybody
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And all they can really do is effectively try and point people and say
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look the other way, while they're trying to sort of patch things up
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And unfortunately, that doesn't progress us very far. And then you've had long-term events and so on
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which, you know, like Brexit back in 2016, We're 10 years on from that
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But that was being effectively shaped by a number of forces, some outside this country, in order to effectively divide us
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to get us out of Europe. And the damage has been done
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The Russians were undermining our security services in the 20s, the 30s
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People like Philby knew what was going on and were telling the Russians during the war
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You know, they were at the heart of SOE, MI5, and all the secrets were out before we got them
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Western stability is something that is traditionally despised only by Russian leaders now
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It seems to be American leaders and some British politicians who've got a massive problem with it as well
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So you can't let him off the hook entirely. Two great opening callers, actually
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because you've sort of set out two opposing stalls. He has to bear some..
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Somebody could surely have done a better job than he has. i i think yes i think the trouble is he's not a politician he's you know he's not what we
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thought we wanted isn't it you know and because of that he he plays a fairly plodding role and
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doesn't try and effectively maximize the uh the ability to play people off against each other
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within his own structure very very very skillfully and as a result of that he he's he's living with
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consequences of that. Unfortunately, I don't really see anybody coming up in the wings who's
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likely to get the better of that with possible exceptions, but not England in Parliament
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That's why I find myself where I am today, in thinking that, I mean, it's not exactly a ringing
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endorsement or a magnificent vote of confidence to say I'm not convinced that things can't get worse
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so let's just leave them as they are, which is pretty flipping awful. But how inevitable is this
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awfulness? What would a more successful cessation or attempt to stop the chaos that the instability
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the inter-Nissan warfare have looked like? I mean, you know, upsetting your core support seems to me
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to be a major misstep in the country, let alone in the parliamentary Labour Party, the welfare
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cuts. But of course, he argued, and I'll remind you what he said, that you could not fix things
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until you'd cleared out the rot. And that was his defence of some of the things that turned out to
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be incredibly unpopular so much so that he had to um he had to reverse on them 10 32 is the time
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phone lines are open dominic ellis has your headlines james o'brien on lbc it's 10 36 you're
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listening to james o'brien on lbc i love it when worlds collide my very good friend gary is i mean
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it's almost an inadequate description of the work that he does um but technically he is a painter
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and decorator. For me, he's more of an artisan. And he was very, very struck by something I'd
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forgotten, for reasons that will become clear. Keir Starmer, when talking about his plans in the
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very early days, said, let me inject some hope. The whole point of this exercise is to make sure
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we can bring about the change that we need. If you don't clear out the rot and don't do it properly
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you've got nothing to build on, and therefore this is a vital step. If you're redecorating
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your house and you want it to look much nicer it's usually better if you strip it down get rid of the
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damp and the cracks first rather than painting it in five minutes thinking it looks much better
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and by christmas the cracks and the damp come back so this is actually a project of hope but
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it's got to start with the hard yards of doing the difficult stuff of clearing out the rot first
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I forget specifically what he was referring to at that moment, but he was talking about the broader project
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It came shortly after the announcement that winter fuel allowance payments would go only to pensioners who were in receipt of pension credit
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and before he was compelled or felt forced to U-turn on that policy
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but I don't think even his most ardent fans would currently argue
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that he is delivering on that work in process what was stripping down the old decor
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what was the damp he sought to get rid of the cracks he sought to fill in
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I don't even know I mean maybe reducing the welfare bill but even that was stymied by his own backbenchers
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so how much of Keir Starmer's perceived failure is down to Keir Starmer
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and how much of it is down to the context, the country, as he governs
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It's 10.38. Mark's in Milton Keynes. Mark, what do you think? I think you're right
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If you're implying it's down to personal style, I think you're on the money. I'm not. I'm genuinely not sure, because I find it hard to answer the question of who would do better
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It is a tricky question. But in terms of Keir Starmer, I mean, he spoke the other day and he was..
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Hope was his key message. Again. And anyone who works in business knows that hope is not a strategy
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Look at his personal style in terms of politics. When he first came in, when Corbyn left and he was leader of the opposition
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My personal perspective was, thank goodness, there's someone who's potentially credible on the world stage representing us
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He's delivered on that bit of it, on the world stage, I would argue, actually
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He says the right things. But look, getting into his style, apparent that he has no convictions, okay
30:48
I suspect the man's never had an original idea in his life. That's probably a bit harsh
30:54
Okay, but... But I'll tell you your point. But that's what he conveys
30:59
I think as the Director of Public Prosecutions and as a barrister, probably in the top 1% of 1% of administrators in the world
31:07
not enough for politics. Why not? To stop the rot, he's got to be able to think on his feet
31:14
He's got to be able to make quick decisions. Whereas his profession has always been about
31:20
referring to the textbook. Where's the legal statute? What should we do next
31:24
and barristers present and deliver messages. They parse every character, every comma in a piece of text
31:31
I thought I wanted that. I thought I wanted that, Mark. I thought I wanted sort of no drama stama, you know
31:38
sort of careful, plodding, dull, process-driven. I'm not convinced that it's a bad thing to want, actually
31:47
As long as you stick with the results of that process. Ah, that's what he's not..
31:51
So I don't mind how you arrive at your conclusion. I'd much rather you arrived at your conclusion very, very carefully
31:57
But if you then abandon that carefully reached conclusion in a heartbeat, what's the flipping point of the process in the first place
32:03
Couldn't draw back upon business planning and business strategy. You know, most CEOs of major corporations will say
32:09
my job is to say no to good ideas because we set the strategy at the beginning of the year
32:13
and we're delivering upon it. We're not changing plan every five minutes
32:17
No, and so there's two. I mean, it's slightly contradictory what you're saying
32:21
because he has tried to do that, but then he has contradicted himself
32:27
So it's not a question of the absence of original ideas. I like the ploddingness, is what I'm saying
32:33
and a minute ago you didn't. So we can agree, we'd probably rather have somebody
32:37
very carefully arriving at a conclusion, but if they're not going to then stick with that conclusion
32:42
then everything is a waste of time. Everything is a mess, isn't it? His plan was his manifesto
32:48
his direction was what he set out when he went in to become Prime Minister
32:54
And to take the country with him, he should have been delivering on what he said
32:58
Whether some of those decisions were deeply unpopular or not, but he should have said, this is why we're doing it
33:02
Because this is where we're going. And it's that conviction that's missing, you see
33:06
And sometimes the detail doesn't matter. A lot of conversation yesterday was about storytelling
33:11
They've delivered at least 20 of the manifesto pleasures they made in 2024
33:15
Getting rid of hereditary peers sitting in the House of Lords, abolishing the non-dom status
33:20
creating British energy, great British energy, scrapping VAT exemptions for private schools
33:25
recognising the state of Palestine, which is an important one because an awful lot of people who profess to hate him
33:29
hate him because of the perception that he hasn't done enough in opposition to Israel's actions in Gaza
33:36
and recognition of the Palestinian state. So there's a little bit of him that's damned if he does
33:40
and damned if he doesn't. But I'm with Mark on the simple question of process
33:44
I disagree with Mark about the kind of mercurial nature of leadership
33:50
I don't think that you necessarily want the same skill set in a prime minister that you might want in a CEO of a company that either employs you
33:56
or in which you hold a lot of shares I prefer a prime minister not to be off the cuff
34:01
and not to be too mercurial but if you're going to praise someone for their process
34:05
for their plodding-ness then the last thing they should be doing is changing their mind on a sixpence
34:12
the last thing So talk of U-turns, whether they are technically U-turns or exercises in listening or that misquote or that thing that John Maynard Keynes apparently never said about when the facts change, sir, I change my mind, what do you do
34:25
All of that works. All of that works. But not if the thing he was supposed to deliver was carefulness
34:35
You can't be carefulness and mind changing. Not on this level. The one cancels out this is important
34:44
That's a great contribution from Mark. It's clarifying things for me, and that is on him
34:49
That's not down to the context in which he finds himself. Should he have styled it out
34:53
Should he have told his own backbenchers to do one? Should he have essentially flicked the bird
34:57
at all the people complaining about the winter fuel allowance and stayed with it
35:02
Answer, yes, but 2020 hindsight is a wonderful thing. Do we have any sound effects, Keith
35:06
that's the that's a horse drawn carriage horse drawn carriage alert I'll do my own sound effects
35:16
seeing as I never get any production if Emily make this ask for a horse drawn carriage
35:20
she'd probably have a full train of horses in the studio by 11 o'clock this morning
35:25
she'd probably ride in on one if Emily make this one did a sound effect
35:29
on her newsagent's podcast for the horse drawn carriage alert that I'm now issuing in a very amateurish
35:36
and lonely fashion, she'd probably be given an actual horse by the management in this building
35:42
But here I am doing a horse-drawn carriage alert. Trumpet alert. Trumpet alert
35:49
The trumpets are now playing. I think it's Knees Up Mother Brown
35:58
Is it Knees Up Mother Brown? No, it's not. Hang on. Bear with me
36:05
Is it the Brian Adams one? the Robin Hood film. That is the king in his golden carriage
36:16
making his way. No, it's not. Who is it then? That's just a crown
36:22
in a carriage. That's the imperial state crown in a carriage. Also the sword of state
36:31
The sword of state. And the imperial state crown. making their way to Parliament in their own carriages
36:43
Drawn by horses and then accompanied by the plaintive wail of trumpets
36:50
or possibly cornets. All those really long, thin ones that I don't know the name of
36:58
At least I'm honest. Everybody else pretends they know what everything is
37:03
Is it a bugle? Am I talking about... No, a bugle's smaller. It's like a small trumpet without any pushy buttons on
37:09
I think. I don't know. I don't know anything, really. But here we are, marking the moment with the requisite solemnity and seriousness
37:19
I'm definitely not trying desperately to think of things that rhyme. More on that after this James O on LBC 10 is the time My thanks to Patrick who has informed us that the long thin trumpet is in fact called a strumpet
37:35
So it was the plaintive wail of the strumpet that accompanied the passage of the Sword of State
37:40
and the Imperial Crown of State up the... I would say up the mall always sounds a little bit indecent to me
37:46
but that is where they are and what they're doing. Listen, I'm not making this up. Here it is live
37:51
Who's that sniffing? That wasn't me, by the way. Just so you know
37:55
Was that you, Keith? Have you invaded the feed? Sounded a little bit like Velcro there
38:05
Just a little bit of background noise from the crowd. So we are having a radio phone-in about the state of British politics
38:12
but it's interesting how many people think that things like this, moments like this, sum up the state of Britain
38:19
Here's a couple of examples in the same moment. Alex writes, it sounds beautiful though, James, even if it is ridiculous
38:26
And Chris in the same moment wrote, hi James, this nonsense is everything that's wrong with
38:29
the UK. I just thought I would mention it. Well, I'm glad you did, Chris, because somebody has to
38:33
As I get older, I quite like it, but I wouldn't read too much into that if I were you
38:38
And Tim's been in touch to say, please ask James to define inter-Nissan. Well, I'm happy to
38:44
Inter-Nissan is tribal warfare, inter-Nissan warfare. It comes from the Latin. I'm not actually making this up
38:50
I'll be making up most of the things that I share with you in the course of the pageantry building up to the King's speech
38:56
For example, it's not really called a strumpet, but I'm going to pretend that I believe that
39:00
because my inbox gets interesting. People will tune in and say, why on earth is O'Brien calling it a strumpet
39:06
I never listened to this show. I've just tuned in by accident. Is he still going on about Brexit and strumpets
39:13
I am not making this up. Necus, N-E-C-U-S, is the Latin word for tribe
39:19
And from Necus comes Nessine, N-E-C-I-N-E. So inter-Nessine means within the tribe
39:26
not intra-Nessine, which would be tribes against each other, but inter-Nessine becomes tribal warfare
39:32
so family warfare, the family fighting each other. Which brings us, of course, to James I
39:38
who was king in 1605 when the gunpowder plot was discovered, which is why, at this moment, the yeoman of the guard
39:47
otherwise known I think as beef eaters although I could have got that wrong
39:50
will be conducting or have recently concluded a ceremonial search of the cellars
39:55
of the Palace of Westminster for explosives. A little nod there too
39:59
that gunpowder plot of 1605 in which a group of English Catholics
40:03
failed to blow up the House of Lords and kill the Protestant King
40:07
and a shout, not that it's worth it because they'll all be in the exam hall now, so a shout to the parents
40:11
of the young people who have started their A-levels today. Because if you're doing
40:15
A-level English and King Lear was one of your set texts, you'll probably be nodding
40:19
towards King James and some of the coded references in King Lear to King James
40:25
reign. But good luck to all the kids who are in there, but also
40:31
to the parents who are dealing with it. 10.51 is the time. How much
40:35
of the mess in which Keir Starmer finds himself is Keir Starmer's fault
40:39
Answer so far, quite a lot. And yes, the media is feral and yes we are all addicted to um psychodrama and yes we use the word psychodrama far too much
40:54
in political coverage and yes uh we are part of the problem by talking about it but yes the election
41:02
results at the end of last week mean that most of this is justified okay so how much of it is on him
41:09
How much of the failure to stop the drama is down to Keir Starmer
41:13
who's not a farmer, and this isn't karma. John's in Stafford. John, what would you like to say
41:19
Well, firstly, I think you've just helped Timbaldee. Thank you very much, John. I am available for all such engagements and assignments
41:26
And we now know where the strumpet comes from, so if that would have been a question for tomorrow
41:31
A fascinating moment of British pageantry, I felt. I think, with regards to Keir Starmer
41:38
I think the writing was on the wall for the moment of the donkey sanctuary
41:42
Yeah, okay. And they're having to dig so deep to try and find something to criticise and critique him over
41:49
that then moving into government, and virtually the first thing he has to deal with is the Farage riots
41:58
Yes. He dealt with it very sternly and very efficiently using the laws of the land
42:03
as you would expect somebody of his standing within the legal profession to do so
42:08
Yeah, that's true. That rubbed up a lot of people of the other persuasion of the right in completely the wrong way
42:17
And then we start getting the bombast about no free speech in the UK and two-tier here
42:24
And whereas you have somebody from his profession who is prepared to, has to listen to argument and make decisions based on those arguments
42:33
if the arguments coming into him are not all correct and are various persuasions
42:41
he's going to make a choice of who do I go with at a major incident an incident commander will have
42:47
heads from each section of that and they will come to him with the facts
42:52
and he will need to make a decision about that incident and how it's going to go forward
42:56
things will always change and in this world at this moment in time
43:00
things that are changing around us on a daily, on a minute-by-minute
43:05
basis, especially with what's gone on across the Atlantic. He showed his true colours
43:13
and he showed his determination not to be drawn into something that was going against
43:20
Leveson, it was going against everything that we didn't want to see
43:25
or whereas quite the right way around whereas certain tribal elements within our politics
43:34
would have had those body bags coming back. He's got that absolutely right
43:40
and anybody saying otherwise would be on Donald Trump's side during a conversation maligning our war dead from Afghanistan
43:48
which of course Donald Trump did without receiving a single syllable of criticism from the usual suspects
43:54
But I'm thinking about incident commanders. once they've made a decision and in the absence of anything changing to then change your mind is
44:05
is catastrophic so i'm thinking about winter fuel payments or even welfare cuts whatever you might
44:10
personally think about them he made a decision and then he backtracked on that decision which
44:15
is the worst of all imaginable worlds it is but from a leadership perspective from a leadership
44:21
perspective because you can do the you know well he realized he'd made a mistake so he changed course
44:25
defence, which is valid, but from a leadership perspective, it's disastrous. But you need to have a
44:31
leader who's prepared to listen and who's not afraid. But like you said, you listen before
44:37
you make the announcement. And then you hope that the hope word is
44:43
obviously quite relevant, that everything goes in the way that it would do, or should do
44:49
based on the current information that you've got. But other things then interject
44:54
and change the course of events and okay let try and keep Trump on side We got the lowest tariffs
45:06
Yeah, a fact lot of good that did us in the long run, but it was the right thing to do at the time
45:10
Absolutely categorically. But of course those tariffs have now been overturned, so there are going to be refunds
45:14
and most of those people that were affected by them, well, they've got the legal catedry ready to, you know
45:20
to see what happens with that. even as far as the Mandelson appointment, you have the likes of Downroads
45:27
you know, just saying how wonderful, what a good poetic move it was
45:34
so of course it wasn't No, and now it gets dredged up by people who were cheering
45:38
it from the rafters as proof of what a wrong and kirstoma is, which is again evidence of
45:42
epic hypocrisy and Labour leaders and Zach Polanski is being held to a much higher
45:46
account at the moment than Nigel Farage for example, despite both of them having
45:50
questions to answer farage's questions much bigger than polanski's they should both be hold to at
45:54
least equal and opposite accounts starmer will be held to much higher account than anybody and never
45:59
more so than when people who decided that the appointment of peter mandelson was a stroke of
46:03
political genius are now absolutely convinced that they knew all along and it proved beyond any
46:07
reasonable doubt that starmer was an idiot for putting mandelson in that role in the first place
46:11
but you're giving him too much credit and you must hold him responsible for some of the mess that he
46:16
finds himself in? Well, at the end of the day, well-worn phrase
46:23
there has to be a certain level of responsibility. He's going to have to do
46:28
that. But if you can hold his hands up and say, Mayor Culper, okay, yes
46:32
it was the wrong decision, but this is what we're going to do to resolve it
46:36
And that's what you want, is that he just doesn't hold his hands up and say, okay
46:40
well, I haven't got a clue. Who's going to do what? There should be a plan
46:44
put in place. And with the processes that he's had to deal with
46:48
i.e. over the Mandelson and the necessary investigations that were done with Mandelson
46:54
and the fact that he didn't get to know about it, and all
46:58
of these areas of government that have clearly been going on from the year dot
47:04
or somebody put them in place, are going to have to be revisited and redone
47:08
so that we don't have these kind of... And we're back to Gary
47:12
and his fond memory of the decorating ogy and the importance of getting everything ready
47:18
before you start redecorating and you know I suppose Starmer's defence would be that we're still in the business
47:24
of filling the cracks and stripping down the old decor but of course
47:28
that puts enormous pressure on whatever it is that they do next. John what a great call. What wonderful
47:32
calls today and we'll carry on with this I suspect until the King starts talking
47:36
time now for an update Someone just sneezed I felt a very patriotic sneeze though
47:46
very patriotic sneeze regal almost the king I think is still in bed
47:51
oh he's having a crafty round the back of the palace before the carriage turns up
47:55
someone just coughed so what you've got now is the yeoman of the guard
48:00
lining the that's Westminster Hall right how have I got my glasses on
48:06
that was a mistake that's something that David Dimbleby would never forget his glasses at the moment
48:09
I've got sunglasses would that look ridiculous but they've got a prescription lens in them
48:13
so I can probably see. Now the picture's changed. No, there's benches there, so that's the House of Lords, is it
48:21
Did you just see Lord Timpson? We like him. Yeah, we like him. He's been on full disclosure
48:30
They're all waiting now, patiently, in the House of Lords for... not for the king, who's not actually left the palace yet
48:38
They're waiting for the crown, which is being carried to the robing room on a special cushion
48:45
It's a technical term. You should see the training manual for this
48:48
That clinking you can hear is the guard's swords. The correct term, I believe, is clinkifying on the steps of the staircase
49:02
The steps of the staircase. The steps of the staircase. The crown
49:07
Do we know where the Sword of State is at the moment? Is the Sword of State all right? Is the Sword of State with the..
49:12
No, no word yet on the Sword of State. So they're all crammed into the House of Lords
49:17
I believe the Sword of State is just behind. No. Where have the fellas gone with the sort of ostrich feathers on their heads
49:24
They accompany it just to the main door, do they? At some point, Black Rod hits a door
49:31
I don't think anyone's actually gone missing. I think this is all as scheduled and as planned
49:34
but I don't know what happened to the blokes with the really..
49:38
What's the word I want? Fru-fru. The really fru-fru hats. Oh, hang on
49:44
They're coming. Here's the sword. Everyone relax. The sword is safe. The sword of state is safe
49:50
And here it comes. I tell you what, you think I'm bad
49:57
You should see the subtitles accompanying the BBC's coverage. A dancer and wearing this kind of garb
50:03
and sometimes we did, was a matter of hairpins, sort of extraordinary, even just to keep the wigs on
50:08
So you should count your lucky stars that you've got my coverage, not these people at the BBC who actually know what they're talking about
50:16
We cross live now to Buckingham Palace, which sits, of course, in the city of London
50:23
Not the city, city of London, with a capital C, but the city of London with a small city
50:27
The city of London, renowned throughout the world, because it's where Shakira Lloyd is practised by the residents
50:38
The king has now left the palace in his golden carriage with the very big wheel
50:43
How many carriages does the king have, I wonder? But he can only use one at a time
50:51
As that great sage of our era, J.K. of Jamiroquai once observed
50:55
when he was criticised for simultaneously being an environmental campaigner and the owner of several high-performance sports cars
51:02
he responded winningly, but I can only drive one at a time, so what's the problem
51:08
So it is with the king's carriage. Does it matter how many he has? He can only occupy one at a time
51:16
Members of the household cavalry mounted regiment now, escorting the king from Buckingham Palace
51:21
to the Houses of Parliament. To the Houses of Parliament. one of Queen Victoria's favourite carriages
51:31
that one, by the way I just read that on the screen
51:36
I don't know if it's true and how will we ever find out
51:40
who is here to contradict us given that Queen Victoria is sadly
51:44
no longer with us and hasn't been for about 128 years give or take
51:51
check which key here note to self Would you like some news
51:58
Do you feel it would be appropriate to interrupt this moment of epic solemnity and regal significance
52:06
Yes, I think it would be. Here comes the news. James O'Brien on LBC
52:12
It is seven minutes after 11 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
52:17
whereas you heard in the news bulletin, we will be taking the King's speech live. shortly around or shortly after half past 11 this morning I imagine Natasha will be joining me just before that to set the scene I mean it is the legislative programme for the next Parliament so there could be a couple of rabbits being pulled out of the policy hat
52:35
I don't know. Goodness knows, Kirsten Armagh at the moment needs all the help he can get
52:41
And he didn't really announce anything substantive in the speech on Monday morning that was widely regarded as a sort of career-saving intervention
52:51
And it didn't work, because his career hasn't been saved. He might still be Prime Minister, but we're still talking about how long that situation will sustain
52:58
And that leads us to the question we've been asking this morning, which is how much of this mess is his fault
53:03
And how much is just evidence of Brexit Britain no longer being a serious country
53:10
To be fair, the signs have been there for ages. A country in which Jacob Rees-Mogg could be taken seriously
53:15
Before Brexit, nobody would take Jacob Rees-Mogg seriously, except possibly Jacob Rees-Mogg
53:20
And I'm not even sure that's true, to be honest with you. I don't think Jacob Rees-Mogg took himself seriously until Brexit came along
53:27
And we started, for reasons that I've chronicled tirelessly, treating people who didn't know what they were talking about
53:34
as equal and opposite equivalents to people who knew what they were talking about
53:39
And we're still there now. Starmer, someone who knew what he was talking about
53:43
was supposed to stop the madness, or at least some of it, and he hasn't
53:47
Is that his fault? Is it because he lacks a very particular set of skills
53:53
Or was it an inevitable consequence of the broader context? For the record, if you're just tuning in, I think a lot of it is on him
54:00
And my callers so far have been divided with a preponderance leaning towards
54:04
he couldn't really have done things very differently, which I do disagree with
54:09
Wayne is in Kingsbridge in Devon. Wayne, what would you like to say? I think that you're probably right on both counts
54:15
It's a combination of the two, isn't it? he's damned if he does and he's damned if he doesn't
54:20
We live in a world now where we can scroll our finger from the bottom of our phone upwards
54:24
and get the next bit of dopamine hit. It's instant. We can order online
54:28
We can get the stuff delivered straight away the next day, in some cases within an hour
54:33
We are impatient people now. But he inherited a country where essentially everything
54:40
was just knocked down to its bare bones. If you take the house ogy
54:45
he inherited blank empty trenches where foundations should be and he's now supposedly built those foundations up
54:54
Yes. And now he's got to do the big job of actually building something on top of those foundations
55:00
He doesn't have the luxury of doing it in quick time. No. That's a really interesting ysis because it hinges on the question, doesn't it
55:10
which I can't answer, of whether or not he thinks he is doing a good job of getting those foundations in place
55:14
because they're invisible. To take the ogy to breaking point, Wayne, you can't see the foundation
55:19
so you can't be sure they're there until the big bad wolf comes along and starts huffing and puffing
55:25
Exactly, which is difficult. So he has to now prove that he can get his hands involved
55:30
that he can micromanage for a while, which, you know, it's been claimed by many people
55:34
that he is quite hands-off in his management style and lets his ministers and secretaries of state
55:40
get on with their job as intended. But he's got a manifesto to deliver
55:44
and he doesn't have enough time to do that delivery if he's not careful
55:48
And if he has indeed seen off this challenge to his leadership
55:53
now is the time where he needs to prove that he is a passionate man
55:57
that he can deliver stuff. That stuff's been trained out of him. Barristers do not show huge amounts of passion
56:05
They show facts in front of them and that is that. Well, some do. No, that's not true
56:10
It's the only hole I'm going to pick in your ysis so far. but some barristers are very theatrical
56:15
I went to see Paul Dacre giving evidence in the latest phone hacking trial
56:20
and the barrister who is leading on that is a very theatrical character
56:28
David Sherbourne, I think his name is. It was a pleasure to watch. It was like being at the theatre
56:32
albeit that I don't know what I'm allowed to say legally about..
56:36
Yeah, I was in the public gallery. Paul Dacre just sat there looking very cowled and small
56:42
but the barrister was... But anyway, I digress. I mean, some barristers are very..
56:45
What's the word I want? Flamboyant. Okay, so perhaps I've worded it a little bit wrong
56:49
Sorry. He deals in facts and facts only. Yes. And presents the facts only
56:54
and sometimes the feelings can get removed when all you're focusing on is the facts
56:59
Yeah, I guess. And meanwhile, his opponents, and the likes of Farage and Polanski
57:04
they all have this way of delivering that excites people one way or another
57:10
and we don't get that from Keir and we don't necessarily need it
57:15
but we need to feel like progress is being made at a pace
57:19
that is what we need and then the personal crashes headlong into the political because 15 years ago
57:25
we didn't need it we didn't need our politics when David Cameron and Gordon Brown
57:30
was it David Cameron and Gordon Brown to start with yeah it was wasn't it when one was Prime Minister
57:34
and one was Leader of the Opposition there was no love lost between them but there was no need for dopamine hits or warfare or any of those things
57:43
The world felt very different because they were on opposing teams that all agreed what the rules were
57:50
But the rules have changed. The rules have blown up, mate. The rules have gone. The Overton window has moved drastically
57:55
Very much. William Pitt, the younger, his world is totally different to what Boris Johnson and Thatcher had
58:03
So we have to move with the times, and politicians need to move somewhat with it
58:10
and present in a way that is palatable. I see so many people on my social media
58:16
particularly on Facebook, calling for him to go, but they're getting the hit from getting angry about something
58:22
They don't really know what they're getting angry about. And they don't know why they want him to go particularly
58:28
or what will be better if he does. It's just get rid of him, get rid of him
58:32
Yeah. And also, I think social media, and I obviously am a slightly weird person on this front
58:38
because I've got this job and I don't need the kick of social media to sort of validate myself
58:44
But I would if I didn't have this job and it validates everybody, you know
58:47
You can post absolute jibber-jabber on there and get 10 million likes
58:51
and feel that you're the most brilliant commentator. Some of the stuff I've read over the years
58:56
about myself, never mind other people, that is so utterly devoid of reality
59:00
so utterly removed from reality, but if you get 10,000 likes for it Or even, look, if your life is a little..
59:06
If you get 10 likes for it, it's more than you've ever got before. 10 likes I got for slagging off James O'Brien
59:12
10 likes I got for slagging off Keith on Twitter. That's incredible. I'm going to do a lot more of that
59:17
I'm going to, oh, well, that lie... And everyone feels like they matter now
59:21
And in a way, that should be a good thing. But if people like Elon Musk are rewarding you for lying
59:27
or for being racist, or for being bigoted, then it's obviously not a good thing at all
59:31
And I mention that because Wayne leads us into the contemplation of why
59:35
Keir Starmer is personally so incredibly unpopular. And I think a lot of that has to come from social media
59:41
But for me, the best illustration of it comes via Israel, actually
59:46
Because Keir Starmer is hated by the left for being what they describe as complicit in genocide
59:52
And yet he is hated by defenders of Israel's genocide for standing up to it
59:58
That is an almost impossible... situation for a politician to have found themselves in. There was a march of solidarity for Jewish
1:00:06
people in Britain at the weekend, and a lot of the coverage, and again, I don't know whether
1:00:11
the coverage was fair, but a lot of the coverage suggested that a huge amount of energy was
1:00:15
expended on hating Keir Starmer, on chanting or shouting dislike for disapproval of, hatred of
1:00:24
Keir Starmer. And yet, of course, on the left of British politics, he is, quotes, hated, end
1:00:29
quotes, because he has been complicit in the genocide for the people on that side of the fence
1:00:35
So normally I like centrism. It's the politics of compromise. It's the politics of the possible
1:00:42
as opposed to the impossible. But sometimes when you find yourself in the centre of a situation
1:00:47
getting abuse from that side and for that side, while they are in complete disagreement with each
1:00:52
other, you don't know how much of that is on the person caught in the crossfire from both sides and
1:00:57
how much of it is a consequence of the context in which he finds himself and that's that's the
1:01:02
question that we're asking today how many of kirstarmer's problems are kirstarmer's fault
1:01:06
and how much uh of the situation in which he finds himself in is down to the situation in which he
1:01:12
finds himself in and and you won't find a better example than that uh 03456060973 is the number if
1:01:20
you want to join in let's just have a quick listen to the carriage that's the house of lords where they await the king do we have a feed of the
1:01:32
oh it's a strumpet king and queen are now arriving that is um i just called to say i love you by stevie won't it hang on it'll come to me
1:01:52
It's a fire starter by the prodigy, I think. Yeah, that was fire starter by the prodigy, being played on the strumpet
1:02:01
That has been a tradition now since about 1991. Prior to that, the strumpet would play my old man's a dustman
1:02:12
He wears a dustman's hat. He took me round the corner to watch a football match
1:02:18
The king is now exiting the carriage. obviously ladies first so here comes the queen resplendent
1:02:29
that's all, just resplendent in a in a lovely crown oh that is a nice crown
1:02:39
and here comes the king who's put a shift in lately I know it's relative
1:02:46
and you'd happily swap places with him in many ways but here he is
1:02:51
putting in another ship. Queen moves, glides, I would say, glides effortlessly to his side
1:03:02
David Lammy is wearing a wig and leading the procession up the stairs
1:03:10
Going to take a little break, I think, and then return to proceedings imminently
1:03:16
It's 11.18. James O'Brien on LBC. It is 19 minutes after 11
1:03:22
I think I got my intras and my intras mixed up. I do apologise. I was sounding so clever as well
1:03:27
when I was answering the question about what inter-Nissan warfare is and drawing on me Latin
1:03:32
which I haven't studied since 1988, but some of it sticks. And I got all of that bit right
1:03:37
but I think inter is one tribe against another and intra is when it's within the same tribe
1:03:43
So when you're talking about the Labour Party tearing itself to shreds
1:03:47
it could be both, couldn't it? It could be inter-Nissan warfare because they are different tribes within the same party
1:03:52
or it could be intra-Nissan warfare because they are technically within the same tribe and or party
1:03:59
But I think I prefer inter-Nissan warfare because it's tribes within the Labour Party
1:04:04
but I explained that wrong a moment ago. I may have some very significant breaking news for you in the next couple of minutes
1:04:12
So, as I introduce Kai in Hornsey to the programme, I caution him that he may be interrupted with that breaking news
1:04:18
or indeed with a particularly gusting blast of the strumpet. Kai, what would you like to say
1:04:26
Well, we're on tenterhooks then for this call. See what I do? It's like I've done this before, mate
1:04:30
I'm building up a little bit. It'll probably go out like a buzz balloon, but anyway, here we are
1:04:35
James, can I just say that going up the steps of the staircase is peak O'Brien commentary
1:04:40
That's John Motson, eat your heart out. Thank you very much. Yes, I've been on a course
1:04:45
Yeah, I'm in Hornsey, so obviously I'm at ground zero of Catherine West's specific omni-shambles of this political week
1:04:53
I basically wanted to just call in something quite simple. And, I mean, it's been mentioned before
1:04:59
and you've had so many callers that have spoken about personality politics. I think the problem is that we're living, unfortunately
1:05:07
regrettably at the moment, in the age of the strongman in the UK
1:05:12
in the US, in so much of Western politics. and Keir Starmer is just seen as weak
1:05:19
The problem is that when you're seen as weak, your message, whatever your message is, isn't going to cut through
1:05:27
and he doesn't really have many messages that cut through anyway. I think the problem is that people see being a strong man
1:05:35
or being a strong person, a strong character as something that has to be inherently conservative or right-wing
1:05:41
And that's because most strong people that we've seen in the last decade, be it Trump or Farage or even Boris Johnson, have been concerned
1:05:49
But none of them are strong. I mean, I know that you're using the phrase as a figure of speech, but that's a sort of cavalcade of pathetic children that you've just described there
1:06:00
That's true. Thin skin, and they pretend to be. I mean, it's populism that you're describing
1:06:04
Absolutely, absolutely. But I think it's, people are equating how specific and how targeted their messaging is with having a strong message
1:06:17
Well, this is why the question is whether or not Keir Starmer could do anything differently, because he's never going to become a populist
1:06:24
No, he's not. He's never going to become a racist liar. He's never going to become a climate change denier or a misogynist
1:06:29
He's flirted with some of the right-wing positions, and it's made everything worse, not better
1:06:34
So when you look at the mess he's currently in, is it a consequence of context or a consequence of character
1:06:40
Well, I think the thing is, I mean, I'm not a fan of Jeremy Corbyn. I'm a Labour member
1:06:43
I mean, I've never been a fan of Corbyn. But I would put Corbyn in the same bracket
1:06:48
in terms of the strength of character and the strength of his message
1:06:53
Now, the thing is, with all of these characters, whether you want to look at... But he was also... I mean, he's also susceptible to accusations of populism
1:07:00
Absolutely, indeed. But I think the key thing is, as soon as you have someone that has sort of strength of message, they seem to garner respect
1:07:11
Strength of message versus strength of character. That's interesting. Because, I mean, you use the word weak to describe Keir Starmer
1:07:16
I don't think he is. As we've seen over Iran more than anything else
1:07:20
But it's about perceptions, isn't it? It not about policies or people sometimes It about perceptions Natasha Clarke is here with I know I being a little bit facetious and flippant today with regards to the King speech in
1:07:35
Parliament but this is a very serious moment potentially. Yes potentially James so we've just
1:07:40
had in the last few minutes some news from allies of West Streeting and according to the Times
1:07:45
newspaper he's told allies which we think are MPs that he is preparing to resign and trigger a
1:07:50
leadership contest as soon as tomorrow. So we've been discussing here on LBC for the last sort of
1:07:57
24 hours about whether this day of the King's speech had meant that all politicians would be
1:08:01
putting aside their differences and putting aside everything, sort of this Westminster
1:08:06
speculation about Keir Starmer's future to one side for the day. But it seems like that's not
1:08:11
the case, isn't it? And we had that meeting earlier between the Prime Minister and Wes Streeting. We know he was... Which was notably short. It had a distinct air of Streeting being told to sling
1:08:20
his hook I felt. I think probably fair. That's probably fair and like I say we haven't had a
1:08:23
readout from from number 10. We don't know from West Streeting's side either what was said between
1:08:28
the pair but what we do know is what he was preparing to say ahead of time. We know they
1:08:31
were planning to have a leadership conversation. We know that West Streeting had tried to do that
1:08:36
after cabinet and was told sorry guys come back later and it's clear that he hasn't been happy
1:08:41
at least according to these reports because of what he has heard that he was in number 10 for
1:08:46
just 16 minutes this morning so incredibly rapid meeting we should say that obviously you know the
1:08:50
prime minister's a busy man it's probably unusual that he has 10 minute meetings but king's speech
1:08:55
today as well exactly he's got enough a blank day in the diary but this would appear and this is from
1:08:59
is it stephen swinford at the time yes from from albury allegretti and and patrick maguire at the
1:09:04
times so and and i have very very well connected journalist exactly and so we have heard um that
1:09:09
there and i have to be fair having having conversations with with mps that are close
1:09:13
to Wes Streeting, so some of his allies. And so I've put this to them and not sort of had that response yet
1:09:19
But one Streeting ally who's spoken at the time says he is going to go for it
1:09:23
He is going tomorrow. So it could be that we are in for a 24-hour truce
1:09:28
and then all hell might break loose tomorrow. Does he fight? He's going to fight
1:09:32
I absolutely am confident that the Prime Minister is absolutely going to fight. So he could end up making everything worse in a way
1:09:39
Well, or not. I mean, who knows at times like this, really. And, I mean, his allies were quite confident last night that he doesn't have the numbers, because we've obviously seen around 90 MPs come out and call for the Prime Minister to go
1:09:51
We don't imagine that all of them will be supporters of West Streeting. But there's quite a lot of MPs we haven't heard from, isn't there
1:09:55
We've had, you know, 100 on one side, 100 on the other side. Well, that does leave the other 200, and we don't know exactly what they think
1:10:00
I mean, is it feasible for Streeting, given that the membership of the Labour Party reportedly, reputedly, holds him in quite low regard
1:10:08
He seemed very much as a figure of the right of the party, where the membership leans partly as a consequence of Jeremy Corbyn's period in charge of the party and the number of people that joined them
1:10:18
But historically, it leans a lot further to the left than where streeting is seen as doing
1:10:23
Because he wouldn't be allowed, would he be allowed a clear path? I don't think he will be allowed a clear path
1:10:29
I don't mean by Keir Starmer, I mean by other candidates. Because if he's the only one against Keir Starmer
1:10:35
he's got a much better chance than if other hats start heading ringwards. Well, what we've heard in terms of, from Angela Rayner
1:10:41
and in terms of sort of other MPs, including, there was a report as well in the press in the last 24 hours
1:10:47
saying that, you know, Ed Miliband could be prepared to stand as the soft-left candidate. Angela Rayner has also made it clear that, basically, if West Streeting goes
1:10:54
she's going to go too. They don't want someone from that winning of the party. And like you say, he is seen as being too right-wing for the Labour Party
1:11:01
So 75% certain this story is kosher. I mean, it could be that they are being told this, but Streeting hasn't actually inked it yet and will change his mind
1:11:12
But I mean, they wouldn't have gone public. I know those two journalists and they wouldn't have gone public this unless they were dead certain of their..
1:11:19
Yeah, like I say, it sounds like an MP that's spoken to the paper who says that he is going to do so
1:11:23
But equally, I mean, look, he's been weighing this up for a long time. This would, if this is true, this is a huge change in position for him
1:11:31
because West Streeting has repeatedly said, and I was speaking to MPs and allies of his yesterday
1:11:36
that said we're not going to pull that trigger, we don't want to do that, so. We're dropping the news
1:11:41
largely because Natasha has just brought you the biggest political story of the moment
1:11:44
but mostly, but also, of course, because the King is now making his way
1:11:49
through the House of Lords, accompanied by his wife, the Queen. um is it bring your wife to work day today or is it is that just for him is it not just just for
1:12:01
him um and and page boys various page boys and some of these outfits are absolutely magnificent
1:12:08
they're they're a little bit sort of late era michael jackson aren't they an awful lot of
1:12:14
jewelry um brocade is a wonderful word that you don't really hear very often except on days like
1:12:20
today. And epaulettes. I don't know that I've ever worn an epaulette
1:12:24
but I aspire to one day wearing epaulettes. Epaulettes and brocade, not to mention crowns. Two crowns
1:12:30
One for the king, the other, of course, for the queen. Everyone's looking
1:12:34
very serious. Where do they find the little boys? Do we know? You boy
1:12:41
What day is it? It's King's Speech Day, sir. I don't know where they find the little boys, but I..
1:12:49
and he's making his way to the big old chair where he will sit down
1:12:54
and deliver the king's speech it's pomp and ceremony no one else in the world does it like this
1:13:03
but if someone started doing it like this we'd think they would start staring mad
1:13:06
and Donald Trump probably watches this and wonders why he's not allowed to have this kind of event
1:13:11
or this kind why can't I have a crown why can't I have ermine why can't I have epaulets and lots of medals
1:13:15
but it would be very very odd if this were to be sort of instituted from a standing start
1:13:24
And now the assembled throngs of politicians from both houses rise to their feet as the king makes his way into the chamber
1:13:34
led by a nice-looking fellow carrying a very large pole. Here he is
1:13:44
This is oddly a feed from the House of Commons. now but the king is of course in the house of laws but i suppose it's closer than i am so
1:13:54
you may as well listen to that for a moment or two king is now sitting down as is the queen
1:13:59
the mysterious page boys um i bet david dimbleby would know where they came from
1:14:05
where is david dimbleby when you need him and i think um they usually say some prayers i think
1:14:13
they say the prayers before he sits down. It could be wrong. That's a whopping old train
1:14:17
though he's got. It's like a big long ermine and velvet, like what a bride would have
1:14:25
rolling out from behind the king's robes. Now waiting for the signal there given by the Lord Great Chamberlain. It's a good title
1:14:36
That's a signal to Black Rod. Here it comes. We will now head to the House of Commons
1:14:43
This is the bit I could remember, where you get to see the body language
1:14:49
It's not impossible that Kemi Bailenok will do a lap of honor at this point
1:14:53
around the entire Houses of Parliament while shouting I the best I the best I Kemi Bailenok I the best Although tradition dictates that she will walk somberly alongside the Prime Minister Keir Starmer
1:15:06
who, as Natasha has just told us, may not be having a good day. That's the sound of Black Rod banging the door
1:15:13
Little chuckle there, someone listening to this coverage with a surreptitiously placed earpiece
1:15:20
and the door opens doors plural Blackrod makes his way into the House of Commons
1:15:33
this noble house to attend his majesty immediately in the House of Pears
1:15:50
the king commands is what he is saying i don't know how we've managed to lose the feed there the
1:15:56
king commands this noble house to attend his majesty immediately oh you heard that um in the
1:16:00
in the house of peers i think some of the pictures are running a tiny little bit ahead of some of the audio and now is the moment where all of the
1:16:07
mps get to their feet and make their way to the house of laws the the the door being slammed in
1:16:14
the face of Black Rod is a mark of the independence of the House of Commons
1:16:22
Something that I presume goes back to Charles I, or at least Charles II
1:16:29
And they're off. The MPs now making their way in a sort of slightly piggledy-piggledy fashion from the
1:16:35
House of Commons towards the House of Lords. I'm just trying to see the
1:16:42
the key players if I can there's an awful lot of lavishly clad
1:16:50
attendants in place there they are Camille Baden-Ock and Kirstarmer chatting away
1:16:56
quite amiably Diane Abbott immediately behind Kirstarmer because she is of course the mother of the house
1:17:01
and I told you I wouldn't recognise faces who's the old, is that Edward Lee
1:17:05
is it? God, well done me that was Edward Lee, the father of the house which just means they're the oldest
1:17:12
Is it the oldest or the longest serving? Longest serving. Lady and man, woman and man, mother and father
1:17:24
Yeah, well, you know, I don't want to read too much into this, but Cammy Bedanot was chatting away there
1:17:29
Keir Starmer didn't look riveted. But he has quite possibly got an awful lot on his mind at the moment
1:17:34
i.e. a leadership challenge incoming from West Streeting, as our political editor, Natasha Clark
1:17:38
shared with us just a moment ago. And we are going to take the speech in its entirety. I won't interrupt it
1:17:42
I don't think that would be appropriate. What is the likelihood of there being, Natasha
1:17:47
major pronouncements in this speech, like major movements, major moments, stuff that perhaps some people were waiting for
1:17:53
on Monday morning but didn't materialise? Yeah, I mean, from what we understand of it
1:17:57
and what the government has told us overnight is going to be in it, I don't think this is going to be a groundbreaking King speech
1:18:03
I don't think it's going to say a lot more that we didn't already know was going to be in it. Reform to the NHS, police reform, immigration reforms
1:18:10
already set out by the government in many ways. I think I'm sure there will be something in it that's a little bit new
1:18:15
We gave, Keir Starmer gave us a flavour, didn't he? He said it was going to be the nationalisation of British Steel Bill
1:18:20
which was going to be coming as part of this King's Speech. But 35 bills is nothing to be sniffed
1:18:25
That's quite a lot of legislation to try to get past. Of course, they've got as well lots of other things
1:18:29
they didn't manage to finish as well in the last session. Things like the Hillsborough Law, for example
1:18:33
that managed not to get on the statute book. So there's a lot of things that this government keeps saying that it wants to do
1:18:38
but I don't think there's going to be any major surprises, I don't think, in there. One of the things that I was being told was being drawn up
1:18:45
was a bill specifically about Europe and closer alignment with Europe. I think we'll probably expect to see something there
1:18:51
but whether it will be ripping up the Labour Party's red lines on the single market and customs union..
1:18:54
It doesn't really matter anyway, because they can pronounce anything they want, really, on Europe
1:18:58
It's up to Europe what we can and can't get now. True. That's absolutely true
1:19:02
but I think it would be a sign, and I think there were some Labour MPs over the weekend
1:19:06
saying something really bold like saying, like Sadiq Khan has said, let's go back into the EU
1:19:11
Might be enough to shift Labour's... David Lammy, and some people will find this a little bit hard to swallow
1:19:16
David Lammy down on one knee there in front of the King, handing over the speech, and here it comes
1:19:22
...members of the House of Commons, an increasingly dangerous and volatile world
1:19:29
threatens the United Kingdom, with the conflict in the Middle East only the most recent example
1:19:36
Every element of the nation's energy, defence and economic security will be tested
1:19:44
My government will respond to this world with strength and aim to create a country that is fair for all
1:19:53
My ministers will take decisions that protect the energy, defence and economic security
1:19:59
of the United Kingdom for the long term. They will defend the British values of decency, tolerance
1:20:07
and respect for difference under our common flag. And they will harness the potential of the pride felt across this country
1:20:16
for its communities. My government will take urgent action to tackle anti-Semitism
1:20:24
and ensure all communities feel safe. my government believes that the United Kingdom's economic security
1:20:34
depends on raising living standards in every part of the United Kingdom
1:20:39
my ministers will support measures that maintain stability and control the cost of living
1:20:47
they will use public investment to shape markets and attract further private investment
1:20:54
They will deploy the power of an active state in partnership with business
1:21:01
and enable reforms that support higher growth and a fair deal for working people
1:21:09
My government believes that improved trading relations are vital for the United Kingdom's economic security
1:21:17
for significantly raising economic growth and for lowering prices for working people
1:21:24
My ministers will introduce legislation to take advantage of new trading opportunities, including a bill to strengthen ties with the European Union
1:21:36
My government will also support the economic security of British businesses. Legislation will be introduced to tackle late payments and to reduce the burden of unnecessary regulation through innovation
1:21:54
The United Kingdom's economic security depends upon world-class infrastructure. Legislation will be introduced to unlock the benefits of airport expansion
1:22:09
enable roads to be built at pace, including the Lower Thames Crossing
1:22:14
and deliver a fair deal for the north of England through northern powerhouse rail
1:22:19
My ministers will continue to take all action necessary to safeguard the domestic production of steel My government will also improve the United Kingdom security
1:22:36
by continuing to invest in the renewal of public services. My ministers will push forward with significant reforms to the police
1:22:46
the National Health Service and to the criminal justice system to help them deliver services the British people expect
1:22:54
legislation will be introduced to increase confidence in the security of the immigration and asylum systems
1:23:05
my government will improve critical infrastructure with legislation to clean up the water industry
1:23:13
and establish great British railways my government believes that the United Kingdom
1:23:22
should be a country fair for all and a place where every child is included
1:23:28
in the nation's highest aspirations. My ministers believe that every child deserves the chance
1:23:36
to succeed to the best of his or her ability and not be held back due to poverty
1:23:43
special educational needs or a lack of respect for vocational education. My ministers will continue to invest in apprenticeships
1:23:54
and measures that tackle youth unemployment They will respond to the Milburn Review and the Timbs Review
1:24:03
and continue to reform the welfare system to support both young and disabled people to flourish in work
1:24:11
as the basis for long-term economic security A bill will be brought forward to raise standards in schools and introduce generational reforms of the special educational needs system
1:24:28
My ministers will also proceed with the introduction of digital ID that will modernise how citizens interact with public services
1:24:39
Alongside strong public services and a strong economy the highest standards of trust in public office are essential for the social contract
1:24:52
and the United Kingdom's collective security My government will introduce the Hillsborough law to bring forward a duty of candour for public servants
1:25:04
my ministers will also introduce legislation to enable peerages to be removed
1:25:11
my government will bring forward proposals that strengthen the delivery accountability innovation and productivity of the civil service
1:25:22
these proposals will also seek to safeguard its impartiality and core values
1:25:29
to enhance trust and confidence in the institutions of government my government will bring forward a bill to speed up remediation
1:25:42
for people living in homes with unsafe caddy and a draft bill to ban abusive conversion practices
1:25:51
in this volatile world my government will continue to pursue foreign policy
1:25:58
based on a calm assessment of a national interest It will continue its unflinching support for the brave people of Ukraine who fights on the front line of freedom
1:26:12
My ministers will seek to improve relations with European partners as a vital step in strengthening European security
1:26:23
It will continue to promote long-term peace in the Middle East and the two-state solution in Israel and Palestine
1:26:32
my government will also uphold the united kingdom's unbreakable commitment to nato
1:26:41
and our nato allies including through a sustained increase in defense spending
1:26:47
my government will seek to reinforce the long-term energy defense and economic security
1:26:56
of the United Kingdom as an essential component of strength on the world stage
1:27:03
This will include housing, which can be a source of insecurity for many people
1:27:11
My ministers will bring forward legislation to increase long-term investment in social
1:27:17
housing and to reform the leasehold system, including the capping of ground rents
1:27:23
My government will introduce legislation to tackle the growing threat from foreign state entities and their proxies
1:27:34
They will respond to the horrific attack in Southport with measures to protect the British people from extreme violence
1:27:42
and honour the victims, the injured and their families. my ministers will also introduce legislation
1:27:50
to improve the country's defences against cyber security threats my government will support our gallant armed forces
1:28:01
and their families who make considerable personal sacrifices for the collective security
1:28:07
and freedom of everyone in the United Kingdom my ministers will recognise this service
1:28:14
with an armed forces bill that improves the service justice system and establishes the Armed Forces Covenant in statute
1:28:25
My ministers believe that energy independence must be a long-term goal of national security
1:28:32
and that the nation's energy security requires long-term investment and reform, as demonstrated by recent events in the Middle East
1:28:43
Increased production of clean British energy will help to ensure that enemies of the United Kingdom cannot attack the economic security of the British people
1:28:55
My ministers will therefore introduce an energy independence bill to scale up homegrown renewable energy and protect living standards for the long term
1:29:08
My ministers will also take forward recommendations of the Nuclear Regulatory Review
1:29:14
and encourage a new era of British nuclear energy generation. My government will remain a leading advocate for tackling climate change
1:29:27
and achieving a world free from poverty. The United Kingdom will also take action to reduce humanitarian need
1:29:36
and conflict around the world. My ministers will champion the rights of women and girls
1:29:43
to live in a world free from violence. This will include promoting women's full economic
1:29:50
and political participation within their societies with agency over the decisions that impact their lives
1:30:01
Next year, the United Kingdom will take on the G20 Presidency and host the G20 Summit to drive global growth and reinforce global stability, which is essential for the prosperity of working people across the country
1:30:18
my government is committed to the strength and integrity of the union of the united kingdom
1:30:27
and will continue to work closely with the devolved governments to deliver for citizens across the whole of the nation
1:30:36
members of the house of commons estimates for the public services will be laid before you
1:30:44
My Lords and members of the House of Commons other measures will be laid before you
1:30:52
I pray that the blessing of Almighty God may rest upon your counsels
1:31:12
I need to speak now otherwise the emergency tape will kick in, but there is now a sort of pause
1:31:17
while the King's standard, I don't know if that's what it's called
1:31:23
but I think David Lammy comes and takes the speech back on one knee, which I feel is a bit of an anachronism now
1:31:30
don't you? It just looks a little odd. But the King's speech is now over
1:31:35
Natasha and I will pick over what was and was not in it shortly
1:31:39
but if you're just joining us, The big political story of the moment is not the legislative programme just set out by King Charles
1:31:47
On behalf of his government, it is the breaking news that West Street in the Secretary of State for Health
1:31:54
is poised to resign as a precursor to mounting a leadership challenge to the Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer
1:32:01
The King and the Queen now making their way from the House of Lords Chamber
1:32:05
They will, of course, process back through the Royal Gallery and to the Robing Room
1:32:11
where they will get ready for their departure. 11.48 is the time
1:32:17
James O'Brien on LBC. It is nine minutes to 12, and you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:32:25
I mean, there's a lot going on, and there's nothing going on
1:32:29
which sounds like a strangely existential observation, doesn't it? But it is actually true
1:32:35
So the King's Speech is a big deal, but, Natasha Clarke, there wasn't really much in it
1:32:38
as is expected and as is normal. As expected and as is normal, there's usually not like a rabbit out of the hat. It is not like budget day where we are sort of expecting something major. A few little things to pick up on. We have had the confirmation that the government wants to bring forward a draft conversion practices bill to ban conversion therapy. They repeatedly keep saying they're going to do this. I think Theresa May's government said they were going to do that and it's not been brought forward
1:33:03
Also a tourist tax, the government confirming that will be brought in line with other European nations
1:33:07
When you go on holiday, you should pay a tourist tax, don't you, when you go to stay at a hotel? That's something that many mayors, including Manchester Mayor, I think Andy Burnham, has been making the case for this
1:33:18
So essentially bringing us in line with other European nations. So when you go on holiday, you'll be having to pay an extra tourist tax, which will go to the city
1:33:26
But yes, generally there's most of the stuff that we knew was going to be in the King's speech is in it
1:33:31
We've got a late payments bill, we've got more on Northern powerhouse steel industry
1:33:36
clean water bill, competition reform, more regulating for growth. Lots of these things that the government have talked about repeatedly, none of which is hugely new
1:33:45
I thought it was interesting, actually, James, the European bill, the European partnership bill
1:33:50
is an interesting one. I didn't think until a couple of weeks ago someone told me this was going to be in it. We've got not much information about what's going to be. It's got a very, very short
1:33:58
few pages on this and but one of the lines that I did think was was interesting and sort of just
1:34:03
Worth reflecting on as we're talking about whether Keir Starmer is doing enough to get close to Europe
1:34:08
This bill is going to give powers to the government to fulfill treaty obligations in the agreements with the EU where it quotes
1:34:14
Serves the national interest Tory MPs aren't gonna like that too. Well that might be subsistence
1:34:18
I may have misspoken slightly, but as you say it will depend on what that means won't it and what what is feasible
1:34:22
plausible and deliverable with the majority whoever the Prime Minister is the size of the
1:34:27
current majority they can more or less do whatever they want. In theory yes, in theory you think so
1:34:32
but that seems to be to be quite a big step forward saying that we could align with other EU treaties
1:34:37
if the government believes that that's power. You know it's sort of as close to the EU as you can
1:34:41
get without going back in and that seems to be what Keir Starmer's government are trying to
1:34:44
attempt so I wonder if that will will get some some discussion and some and some MPs either riled
1:34:50
up or in total support of that, saying this is exactly what we need to try and sort of
1:34:54
separate us from the Greens and separate us from the Liberal Democrats, who are really
1:34:57
squeezing Labour's vote, as we saw last week in those local elections. It's debated now, isn't it, the King's speech? They go back to the House of Commons and debate
1:35:07
it, which is a slightly odd prospect. But again, that's what happens every year
1:35:12
It is what happens every year. And yeah, exactly. It just feels like such an odd moment to be
1:35:17
having MPs in the House of Commons talk about governing an agenda and we're getting on
1:35:22
And we've, as part of the documents that the government have released, in the last few minutes since the King has made that speech
1:35:28
we've got an introduction to the King's speech from the Prime Minister. And he's sort of making the case, you know, he said
1:35:33
our country stands at Piltl moment. The world today is more volatile and dangerous than any point in our lifetimes
1:35:39
And this would have been written in light of losing those local elections, it's fair to say
1:35:43
He says, this time will be different. this King's speech shows us it will be different
1:35:47
with a plan to make this country stronger and fairer. So it's interesting to see his framing
1:35:54
in light of these election losses. But lots of MPs, like I say, that I've spoken to over the last week, James
1:35:59
especially in light of that speech he gave on Monday, just saying, we still want you to go further
1:36:03
We want you to be bigger and bolder. And they feel that that's not happening. Indeedy doody
1:36:08
Five minutes. I've got to stop saying that. I only started yesterday. I've said it about 11 times in the last 24 hours
1:36:12
12 noon just around the corner for people just joining us we don't really know what to do with this news
1:36:19
because Keir Starmer or rather Wes Streeting who had a meeting with Keir Starmer
1:36:24
amid the drama earlier this morning that's lovely thank you if I was still on X
1:36:30
I'd probably be tweeting what's the verb to blue sky I don't know
1:36:36
skeet I think skeeting about Streeting having a meeting with Starmer amid the drama beautiful
1:36:41
thank you very much But nothing's going to happen now. So one of, for people just joining us
1:36:47
one of West Streeting's allies appears to have told journalists from the Times newspaper
1:36:51
that he is going to resign and trigger a leadership contest tomorrow
1:36:56
or as soon as tomorrow, which is probably true. You know, there is room for him, of course
1:37:02
to change his mind, to withdraw. It's unlikely he's going to be over the moon with whoever has broken cover on this
1:37:08
particularly as the king was assuming the position in the House of Lords. But, I mean, no one can respond to it until Streeting's actually
1:37:17
made his move. I mean, we can, we can talk about it, and we will in the next hour, but
1:37:21
Starmer can do anything about this until it actually happens And Streeting there a great photograph that Cat Nealon of The Observer has picked up on a still from events in the House earlier where Streeting is looking ahead in a very unamused fashion while James Cleverley appears to be sort of teasing him and cajoling him
1:37:42
Cat Nealon of The Observer suggests that James Cleverley, who of course would be leader of the opposition
1:37:47
if his own leadership bid hadn't been beset by complacency and a degree of numerical incompetence
1:37:53
James Cleverley is saying to West Streeting, have you thought about lending some of your votes to Ange
1:37:59
Heidi Alexander behind West Streeting doing a very bad job of trying not to giggle
1:38:04
while James Cleverley, in fact, everyone around them is giggling except West Streeting
1:38:08
while James Cleverley clearly engages in some inter-party badinage. But nothing's going to happen now for 24 hours, is it
1:38:17
It can't. I mean, Streeting won't choose today to confirm or deny. Well, he might deny
1:38:21
he could say today I'm definitely not mounting a leadership bid but that ain't likely
1:38:24
and he ain't going to confirm until he actually does it. Yes, and we did hear from his team yesterday
1:38:29
that they were unlikely to tell us A, what the contents of this conversation with the Prime Minister has been
1:38:35
and B, whether there would be any sort of next steps for Mr Streeting
1:38:40
So this MP, it sounds like an MP that's spoken to the Times New York Times
1:38:43
has jumped the gun a bit and if I were West Streeting I'd be feeling totally furious that he's done this today of all days
1:38:49
just as the King was walking into the Houses of Parliament. But yes, the fact that West Streeting's team have not confirmed nor denied any of this
1:38:57
they've not put out any statements, they've not picked up the phone, it lends me to think, firstly, it's probably true
1:39:03
but B, that they don't want to do anything or say anything today. So are we in a bit of a holding pattern now for the next 24 hours
1:39:08
while we wait for a new dawn, not the King's Speech Day
1:39:12
in order to give the government that time? And also to give West Streeting time, right
1:39:16
He needs to make sure that he's got the numbers, for goodness sake. And we know what happened with James Cleverley when he thought he did
1:39:22
Well, he did. He was so confident he had them that he told some of them that they could vote for someone else
1:39:26
in order to try and finesse who he would be up against in the final round
1:39:30
Exactly. And then in Lowenbelt, he wasn't in the final round. Yeah, I think that's kind of probably unlikely between those two camps
1:39:35
but you never know. So, yes, I think, you know, West Streeting's team will be making sure
1:39:39
that he has got those 81 MPs in order to do so. But it is interesting
1:39:43
And like I said, this is not what we've been being told. For weeks and months and days by West Streeting's team
1:39:48
They repeatedly keep saying to us, Wes is not going to be the one to trigger it
1:39:52
So there is always the chance that this is a rogue MP trying to force Wes Streeting's hand
1:39:57
And he's still not made up his mind. He's still not decided because it is a very big decision to challenge the leader of the Labour Party
1:40:03
especially when you are seen as being so divisive. And lots of MPs will not be on your side if you do so
1:40:08
Sky News going with allies, plural, telling Sky News that he is preparing to resign
1:40:13
So all of those messages pinging back and forth at the moment
1:40:18
and adding to the sense that this intervention is imminent. Things change, don't they
1:40:23
That meeting earlier today may well have made Streeting realise that Starmer isn't going to put a plan in place
1:40:30
for a peaceful transition of power. He's going to fight tooth and nail to hang on to power
1:40:35
He's certainly going to fight tooth and nail to maintain control of the situation
1:40:40
and that puts Streeting in a position where he thinks, well, it's now or never
1:40:44
There may never be a better... That wasn't true before he went to Downing Street this morning, He may have come out of Downing Street believing that this is it now
1:40:51
It's now or never because Starmer's not going anywhere. He's going to have to be pushed
1:40:56
He ain't going to jump. He wouldn't have known that for sure before he went to that meeting
1:41:02
No, and we should say that the Labour Party rules mean that the incumbent is automatically on the ballot paper
1:41:07
So Keir Starmer's name will be automatically there. So we say Keir Starmer's going to fight
1:41:11
He has said yesterday to his cabinet that he's getting on with the job of governing
1:41:15
and the leadership challenge hasn't been met. We know, we've heard repeatedly from his allies, from people in Downing Street saying repeatedly that the Prime Minister will fight any challenge
1:41:24
And like I say, he won't have to fight. His name will automatically be there. The idea will be, do you want West Streeting or do you want the current incumbent to stay, which is a high bar to meet, isn't it
1:41:34
And Streeting would need 20% of the Parliamentary Labour Party to nominate him
1:41:38
Yeah, that's the 81 MPs that we've been talking about. To stand for leader. To stand for leader
1:41:42
And as we know, we know there are 81, more than 81 MPs that do want the Prime Minister to go
1:41:47
But I'm absolutely convinced that not all of them will be vacuuming, worst treating. And many of them, some of them want Andy Burnham, of course they do
1:41:53
And some of them just want the Prime Minister to go and they have not decided who they want next. Which many people think is totally mad to be calling for the Prime Minister to go without a replacement
1:42:01
It's in June, July, August, September. It's probably four months for this situation to unfold if it does go ahead
1:42:08
Yeah, I haven't read the specifics of the Labour Party rules, which indicate what a timetable would look like
1:42:13
But I think it depends on the Labour Party chair, who is Anna Turley. She sets out that leadership timetable and what that looks like
1:42:19
And, you know, it depends on what they want to do. We have seen the Tories, for example, have very short leadership contests
1:42:25
where the chairman of the Tory party has decided, we don't want this to drag out for two or three months
1:42:30
We want to go quickly. There's different rules in place. Every Labour MP has a period in which to secure nominations
1:42:35
from 20% of the PLP. You only get on the ballot. if you get 20
1:42:40
people may remember the remarkable circumstances in which Jeremy Corbyn secured that 20% and the motivations
1:42:46
of the people that helped him. Another reminder of how unpredictable all of this can be when
1:42:52
push actually begins to come to shove and then the party units
1:42:56
would have the chance to make supporting nominations followed by hustings and then the vote
1:43:00
it is someone heavily involved in the Labour Party for a number of years has messaged me
1:43:04
to say it is a proper pain and it has deliberately so in order to mitigate challenges
1:43:11
So it is deliberately a painful and painstaking process in order to ensure that nobody does it frivolously
1:43:17
Exactly. And we also should note that it's not just the MPs that have a say here
1:43:21
It's the Labour MPs. It's the unions and affiliates, of which we have heard from this morning
1:43:25
saying they do believe that we should change the Prime Minister and the Labour leader. And then it's the constituency Labour parties as well and then the members
1:43:32
So there's a lot of people to consult. This doesn't just take a week or two
1:43:36
it can take months so it's the question is whether labour mps want to drag this out over over many
1:43:42
months and have a very painful protracted contest of which it looks like it's going to be incredibly
1:43:47
dirty especially if west streeting is the one pulling that trigger and it makes the warning in
1:43:52
one newspaper this morning from andy burnham that he will not uh welcome a coronation of west
1:43:58
That's a good headline there. Did you spot it, Keith? A Coronation Street-ing
1:44:04
Nice. Wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah. And we're back to the strumpet
1:44:10
James O'Brien on LBC. Seven minutes after 12 is the time. There is some extraordinary cognitive dissonance, isn't there, in the King
1:44:22
Talking about housing crises and poverty. in 2026 in the United Kingdom
1:44:30
And I don't want you to think I'm unaware of it, or that I'm unanimated by it
1:44:35
There's something a little bit unseemly almost about it, the idea that someone can be delivering a speech
1:44:41
addressing poverty and housing crises when they own countless properties. One of the biggest landlords in the country, isn't he
1:44:49
But, I mean, the properties that are for his own use are innumerable as well
1:44:54
and poverty while he wearing jewellery that you could probably house 100 homeless people simply by flogging down the porn brokers today
1:45:07
I'm just mentioning it. I'm not unaware of it, but I'm going to take issue with Susan from Scotland
1:45:12
I'm not putting you in idiot's corner, Susan, yet. It's obscene, James, obscene
1:45:17
Let's have some of them jewels and spend it on social care. Why are you so in awe of ridiculous nonsense
1:45:24
waving a wee union flag, are you? I'll bet Lewis Goodall isn't
1:45:30
Well, if you felt that that coverage that I just provided of the King's speech
1:45:34
was awed, reverent, respectful, and, well, insert words of your own choice there
1:45:44
then I'm afraid you're absolutely bonkers. I don't even know what I could have done
1:45:48
to demonstrate how unseriously I take an awful lot of that business
1:45:53
But hey-ho. and be careful. Don't start, you know, trying to build up some sort of rivalry
1:45:59
between me and Lewis Goodall. That way madness lies. Susan from Scotland
1:46:04
But Michael's been in touch to prove a point I made when I suggested to you that the correct name
1:46:08
for that long, thin horn was strumpet, which obviously wasn't true, but I pretended to think it was true
1:46:15
in order to get messages like this from Michael, who writes, I don't think the instrument is called a strumpet, James
1:46:20
A strumpet is something else entirely. Thank you, Michael. And then I'm going to read you a message
1:46:28
I've had some lovely messages today. I don't read out the lovely ones. I don't know why
1:46:32
I probably should read them out a little bit more, but it always seems a little bit self-aggrandizing
1:46:36
But there have been some really lovely ones today. Thank you for enjoying. I've got some rude ones as well, of course
1:46:42
but the general sense was that you enjoyed my attempts to bring some levity
1:46:47
to the business end of the King's speech. So thank you for those
1:46:52
but sometimes you just get me. You really do. Please don't read my name out, says this texter
1:46:59
but I'm just about to go to my mum's funeral. And James' reference to the prodigy
1:47:04
and his commentary on the King's speech has just made me chuckle on a day when I didn't think I would
1:47:09
And those, I'm going to delete that quickly so that I don't accidentally say your name
1:47:13
but my commiserations, my condolences if you're still listening, and I hope today goes off as well as it possibly can
1:47:20
If it's any consolation at all, the knowledge that your mum knew how much you loved her will be a great comfort to you one day
1:47:30
Maybe not today, okay? Probably, definitely not today. Today's too raw and too difficult
1:47:35
But as the days turn into weeks and the weeks turn into months and you look back upon a lifetime and a relationship
1:47:43
then the knowledge that she knew how much she meant to you will be a great, great comfort to you
1:47:49
But those are the moments. I don't know what the radio equivalent of a fourth wall is
1:47:54
Do you? You know when you're in the theatre and you break the fourth wall
1:47:58
or you're on television and you do one of those little asides like Sarah Jessica Parker in Sex and the City
1:48:05
But when I get a message like that, it reminds me, it just reminds me, because I'm always conscious of it
1:48:11
that we are essentially just people who hang out together every day
1:48:17
And I try to look out for you. And when I get messages like that, it reminds me that sometimes we just manage to get it right
1:48:24
So seriously, God bless and good luck today. And thank you for that lovely message. 11 minutes after 12 is the time
1:48:30
Back to business. Let's act as if West Streeting is going to announce his leadership bid tomorrow
1:48:37
I'd say it was 85% certain. Natasha's now getting messages from allies of West Streeting confirming that they also think that it is about to happen
1:48:45
The brevity of that meeting at Downing Street today suggests to me that Streeting arrived with hopes that were quickly dashed
1:48:52
And those hopes would have involved the roadmap for departure that many people were calling upon Keir Starmer to construct
1:49:01
So not an immediate resignation, but an announcement of what was going to happen
1:49:05
An acceptance that the game was up. That's what Wes Streeting wanted
1:49:10
when he realised that he was not going to get it, that for Keir Starmer, the game is not up
1:49:18
That's when he decided he had little choice but to press the big red button
1:49:24
Marked leadership challenge. So he'll resign as Secretary of State for Health. It's not beyond possibility that Keir Starmer sacks him
1:49:30
in the course of this afternoon, if Keir Starmer is absolutely certain that this is what West Streeting is planning to do
1:49:35
A bit like what Kemi Bader not did when honest Bob Jenrick decided to spend the rest of his career
1:49:41
pretending that he'd never been in the Tory party, let alone immigration minister, while moaning for the rest of his career
1:49:45
about what a mess the Tories made of everything, especially immigration. Akemi Bader not got wind of that plan from Honest Bob
1:49:52
so she handed him his sandwiches wrapped in a road map. It's amazing how many complaints I get
1:49:56
about that figure of speech. It's one of my all-time favourites, but I'll try and moderate my use of it
1:50:01
So she kicked him into touch. She pushed him before he could jump, effectively
1:50:05
I suppose Starmer could do that. I can't think of a precedent for that happening
1:50:11
but it's not beyond the realms of possibility. But we're going to conduct our conversation now
1:50:14
as if it is a fait accompli. So West Streeting is mounting a leadership challenge
1:50:20
against Keir Starmer. It's 13 minutes after 12. I don't have a great deal to say about this
1:50:27
as you would expect, because it has only just happened. I am very keen to hear your absolute gut reaction
1:50:34
your knee-jerk reaction. Normally I'm a bit allergic to knee-jerk reactions because I'm much more interested in the why than the what
1:50:40
but sometimes the what works, and the what works at moments like this. Wes Streeting, mounting a leadership challenge to Keir Starmer
1:50:48
less than two years after Starmer won a landslide general election victory
1:50:55
Albeit a shallow and largely loveless landslide, a landslide numerically it was
1:51:01
What do you think? I mean, particularly interested if you are surprised by your initial reaction
1:51:08
But give me a ring now and tell me what your initial, what your immediate reaction is
1:51:14
to the news that Wes Streeting has broken cover and is bidding to oust Keir Starmer
1:51:21
as leader of the Labour Party and, of course, Prime Minister. My first thought, and I reserve the right to completely change my mind about this
1:51:30
in the course of the next 45 minutes, My first thought is that this is quite weaselly behaviour, quite self-serving behaviour
1:51:39
It is the opposite of loyalty, it is the opposite of unity, it is the opposite of stability
1:51:48
But it may well be that it is the best chance that the Labour Party has of going into the next general election with a leader capable of winning it
1:51:59
I honestly don't know. But on a personal level, before we get into the politics of it
1:52:03
I'm not immediately sure where streeting is going to emerge from this very well
1:52:08
They often say that he who wears the dagger never wears the crown. It's not entirely true, but it's quite true
1:52:14
Anybody who thinks of John Major's toothache at this moment, or his dentist, is probably as big a political anorak as I have become
1:52:22
over the last few years. but there something about being the one to stab your own leader in the front or the back the et tu brute moment that I think can tarnish somebody for a very very long time
1:52:37
And right now, West Streeting is in that space for me. I'm a little bit kind of, oh, come on, really
1:52:45
You're going to hand this kind of gift to your own enemies? A bunch of bozos voting reform because they thought that it would have an impact on national politics
1:52:54
and you would somehow get Starmer out as a consequence of voting for the various racists and weirdos
1:53:01
that now populate the council chambers of the United Kingdom under Nigel Farage's Christopher Harbourn-sponsored flag
1:53:08
You kind of give them a win as well, don't you? In a way? I don't know. I'm going to find out what you think
1:53:13
Get the numbers now. You really will get through, but be quick, all right? 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need
1:53:22
The time now is 12.16. James O'Brien on LBC. 15 minutes after 12
1:53:28
I mean, if you look back at Dennis Skinner's contributions during the Queen's speech
1:53:33
they are nowhere near as iconic or as funny as they seem to be at the time
1:53:37
They're rude and they're all on YouTube. Sometimes Skinner was a very, very funny man
1:53:43
But quite often he just, in retrospect, comes across as a little bit sort of obnoxious
1:53:49
However, it is believed to be a Labour MP called Torquil Crichton
1:53:53
which does not immediately strike you as a name likely to be associated with a Labour MP
1:53:58
but we live in strange times. Torquil Crichton would have been a sort of 19th century Conservative MP
1:54:04
Torquil Crichton! He is believed to be responsible for a moment of genuine comedy
1:54:10
And just in case you get confused, it's Andy Burnham that you need to have in your mind
1:54:14
at this moment. But this is what happened just a few moments ago when Blackrod arrived at the door of the House of Commons
1:54:22
not her Andy why didn't he get a round of
1:54:33
why didn't he get a laughter or a round of a bloody idea that it was Andy Burnham I think because it's not
1:54:37
immediately obvious it's extremely funny though a moment of levity do you think
1:54:41
a very serious that's not that serious but um but there we are
1:54:45
referencing the fact of course that the leadership challenge actual or imagined is
1:54:51
in the forefront of everybody's minds. And it is Wes Streeting who appears to be the one to pull the proverbial
1:54:57
trigger. And I want to know what you think about that. Angela's in Barnet
1:55:01
to start the process. Angela, what would you like to say? Well, James
1:55:05
I'm shocked and I'm disgusted. And I'm a member of the Labour Party
1:55:11
and if Wes Streeting ends up standing for the leadership, I'm not voting for him
1:55:16
Why not? Because I think the way he's behaved is appalling. I think the way
1:55:21
they've all behaved is appalling. What's the matter with them? They're no better than
1:55:25
the Tories now. We've waited, James, 14 years for them to get into power
1:55:31
as Labour supporters and voters. I've waited 14 years and now look how
1:55:39
they're behaving. I mean, it almost makes me want to cry. I can hear the emotion in your voice. Is there
1:55:45
nothing in the results of last week's elections that sort of moderates
1:55:49
your disgust. You sort of think, oh, well, I'm very sad that this is happening, but
1:55:53
it's probably for the best. No, I don't think it is for the best
1:55:57
You know, the alternative is no better. Who's going to stand? Andy Burnham's not an MP
1:56:04
No, but he could be. I mean, there's a three to four month process going forward
1:56:09
now, so it's tricky. And streeting may be calculating that as well, of course, which I don't think is going to give
1:56:15
him any leeway in your reckoning. He may well be calculating that if he moves now, then he won't have to
1:56:21
face Burnham, but if he waits for the next opportunity, Burnham could be in place
1:56:27
But where's Streeting has got a majority of 700? The chances are he's going to get
1:56:33
voted out at the next election, and then we have another leadership thing, if he wins
1:56:38
Good Lord. It's all going on, isn't it? Yeah, and it's just crazy
1:56:43
What's the matter with them? I mean, they need to grow up
1:56:48
If I push you briefly away from the them to the him, does your opinion of West Streeting change at all in this moment
1:56:56
Yes, and I used to really like him, James. That's interesting. I mean, I think a lot of Labour supporters really liked him
1:57:03
He was straight talking, he'd answer a question, and now he's this weaselly little person
1:57:10
whispering in dark corners, plotting and it's horrible. And I'm shocked. I'm really shocked
1:57:19
Well, I suppose from your point of view, then let's hope it's not true, although all of the indications are
1:57:23
that it almost certainly, or that it probably is. Thank you, Angela
1:57:27
22 minute, I almost feel I should be offering you condolences, but we are operating on
1:57:31
the presumption that these reports will be proved accurate. We don't know for certain
1:57:35
yet that West Streeting is going to resign tomorrow to launch a leadership
1:57:39
bid against Keir Starmer. But let's say that he is how do you respond to that news 22 minutes after 12 is the time um i mean i should probably
1:57:49
mention that if you want to listen to quite in-depth long very personal and human interviews
1:57:56
with wes streeting angela rayner andy burnham keir starmer and david lammy who no one ever
1:58:03
mentions in this kind of context but you never know um why is no one i mean i don't know whether
1:58:08
Sadiq Khan's got any interest in the big job. But it's odd that they're talking about one mayor
1:58:12
whose record is nowhere near as impressive as another mayor as potential prime ministers
1:58:18
But anyway, the four obvious contenders in a coming leadership battle, should Keir Starmer decide to fight it
1:58:24
are Wes Streeting, Angela Rayner, Andy Burnham and Keir Starmer, all of whom have appeared on full disclosure
1:58:31
one of whom in front of an audience, which obviously creates a slightly different energy. But, I mean, we should probably put that together
1:58:38
as a package for people, if they all do end up on a ballot
1:58:41
to familiarise themselves a little bit more with what they're like, not away from the microphones, obviously, or the cameras
1:58:48
but in a slightly more human and intimate environment. Angela, thank you. David is in Bayswater
1:58:53
David, what would you like to say? Yeah, hi, James. So basically, I think we need to make a distinction
1:58:58
between people like Wes and the ordinary MPs, because Wes has not stood up against any of the policies
1:59:04
that Kiristam has tried to get through Parliament and failed. And so clearly he didn't object to these or he didn't publicly say he did
1:59:11
Well, he's a cabinet member, mate. He's not allowed to. No, no, but can I just finish my point, James
1:59:15
No, you can't. Don't be so rude. He's a cabinet member. A cabinet member can't object to what the government is doing
1:59:23
without leaving the cabinet. It's called collective cabinet responsibility and it's been part of our unwritten constitution for over 100 years
1:59:32
But, James, my point is it goes to show he's putting his own self-interest..
1:59:36
No, it doesn't. Well, in my opinion, can I just finish my point? No. John's in Telford. John, what would you like to say
1:59:43
I've got to follow that. Hi. Can I just finish my ludicrous point that bears no resemblance to reality whatsoever
1:59:49
Because I'm me and it matters. So carry on, John. I will have my say
1:59:53
You will. Hi. Sorry, James. First time call. A long time listener
1:59:57
Welcome. But it's only you, right? It is. Correct. I think this is actually great news for Starmer, Opportunity Knox now
2:00:05
You can have the cabinet reshuffle, you can drop Angela into health if you wanted to
2:00:11
kill two birds with one stone. If Streeting doesn't get the 81 points, then that's..
2:00:17
It's a big if. It's a big if. It is a big if. Susan in Scotland's favourite LBC presenter, Lewis Goodall, has just posted that
2:00:26
If West Streeting challenges and has the number, and that's a big if
2:00:30
he says, then the next big decision will be with Ed Miliband. Well, or, or, but at least shuffle has to be done because Wes is out
2:00:41
Therefore, he can seem to be doing something that might kind of feed the media beast and calm things down
2:00:48
And your personal opinion of, reaction to Wes Streeting, is it changing in the moment
2:00:54
My inbox is not very pleasant reading for the health secretary, but I'm interested in what you think
2:01:00
It's not doing him any favours, is it? His timing's off. It's not doing him any favours at all
2:01:04
He was widely seen as the coming man. Yeah. But today is not that day
2:01:08
So I think, actually, he's doing himself more harm than he is to Stam
2:01:13
Yes, it could well be. Unless, of course, it all comes off perfectly, and he's Prime Minister this time next September
2:01:20
September, yeah. In which case, you'll have forgotten this conversation, and I'll be alright
2:01:25
Yeah, same here. Luckily, none of it's recorded. 26 minutes after 12 is the time
2:01:29
streeting moves first. What do we think of that? Charlie's in Hitchin. Charlie, what would you like
2:01:33
to say? I just think it's probably the first domino in many
2:01:37
dominoes to fall for the Labour Party the next general election. Why do you say that? Well, I just
2:01:43
think we're going kind of down the same route that the Tories went. Where it's leader after leader
2:01:49
All vying for power. And I think really the next Prime Minister
2:01:53
should be the person that doesn't want to be Prime Minister. I think that's probably
2:01:57
I think politics should be full of people who don't want to be in politics. It's one of my pet theories as well, actually
2:02:03
like the old Groucho Marx line about clubs. You see, I was about to scoff then
2:02:08
not quite as violently as I scoffed with the caller before last, but I was about to scoff and say, oh, don't be ridiculous
2:02:13
Of course we're not going to go down a Tory route of having leader after leader after leader
2:02:19
But two years ago, Charlie, if you'd said to me, I don't think Labour are going to be any different from the Tories
2:02:23
they'll probably be talking about changing the leadership in two years' time, I'd have scoffed
2:02:27
I'd have gone, oh, don't be daft. Of course they're not. This is a complete diff. So you can't really say anything with confidence anymore
2:02:33
Well, I think that's probably my problem. And while I feel a bit disenfranchised with our democracy right now
2:02:39
is none of these leaders come in and actually stick to what they're trying to do. I feel like the parties are so fragmented
2:02:45
You know, the Labour Party, you've got the Labour left, you've got the Labour centre and the Labour right
2:02:48
and nothing can get done. And meanwhile, we're all the sorry people trying to get by
2:02:54
and none of these policies are happening. That's a brilliant point. Because, of course, Starmer's failures are partly as a consequence of the left of his own party. People to the left of him, which is probably most of the parliamentary Labour Party, and where Streeting is perceived as being, if anything, to the right of Starmer
2:03:11
So the idea that he's the natural heir apparent is pie in the sky
2:03:17
And of course it also adds to that thing you've just touched on, which isn't pretty, is it
2:03:21
That this just speaks to the picture of chaos. It speaks to the catalogue, the continuing catalogue of chaos
2:03:27
that typifies British politics and has done now for the best part of a decade
2:03:31
And that's where we started the show at 10 o'clock this morning. Keir Starmer and Labour were supposed to be bringing an end
2:03:38
to that particularly chaotic chapter. Charlie, great stuff, thank you. Zoe's in Stonehouse. Zoe, your gut reaction to this, and we're calling it news for the time being
2:03:47
It's very strong. I'm very nervous at the moment, mind you. It's only me. It's only me. It's only me. I'm a cat. I'd never rude to anybody. I'd never cut callers off with little reason or justification. You're absolutely safe here, Zoe
2:04:03
No, and don't butt in or anything. None of that. No, it's just my gut reaction
2:04:08
Yes. Extremely angry. I've spent all week trying to get in touch with my local MP here, Simon Ofer
2:04:16
who obviously is backing ousting Starmer. Okay. I don't think it is going to do us a great deal of good because
2:04:25
I mean, I know you don't go on threads, but I'm on threads now. Okay
2:04:29
And the amazing support on there for the Prime Minister is incredible
2:04:36
Well, Blue Sky is similar, but it doesn't translate into any opinion polls
2:04:42
No, no. It's not, I mean, it's even more, I mean, it's anecdotal, isn't it
2:04:45
And a plural of anecdote is not data. It is, it is
2:04:49
However, I just, I wouldn't vote for Westwitch. I really, he has gone down, in my opinion
2:04:56
It's all just more drama, as you say, for drama. And we're not going anywhere, we're not going anywhere forward
2:05:04
But if this is the best chance to go into the next general election with someone capable of winning it
2:05:12
that involves accepting that Keir Starmer isn't, which I don't think you have done. You haven't accepted that Keir Starmer isn't capable of winning the next general election, for the record, nor have I
2:05:21
But that is Streeting's only defence, really, isn't it? What, that he could do the next election
2:05:27
That's why he's doing it. Yes, exactly that. I can do better than Keir Starmer will
2:05:31
No, well then I think that he'd better be careful what he wishes for
2:05:37
because he'll just be skewered as they all, anyone who takes over will be
2:05:42
because that's just how it goes for Labour There is one element that we've all overlooked, or at least I have overlooked
2:05:47
and it's been picked up, you mentioned threads the platform of choice for me is Blue Sky these days
2:05:53
where one of my all-time favourite contributors is a chap called Roland Smith
2:05:58
who is probably a more assiduous watcher of unhinged headlines even than I am
2:06:03
And he points out, Streeting will know the adage that he who wields the knife fails to wear the crown
2:06:09
but I suspect he knows he can't win, which is why he's wielding the knife
2:06:16
I hadn't thought of that. I'd pointed it out that his path to power looks almost insuperable
2:06:23
because he is so unpopular on the left of the party. But that, of course, is not going to be something that West Streeting is unaware of
2:06:32
So, arguably, we now do a 180-degree turn from thinking that West Streeting is acting out of unalloyed and undiluted self-interest
2:06:40
to wondering whether he is, in fact, acting in what he sees as the best interests of the party
2:06:48
even if it involves him being tarnished by the act of betrayal
2:06:55
and not having any real prospect of coming away with the cup
2:07:00
That's fascinating. That's really interesting. And it's a gut reaction, which is what I'm canvassing from you as well at the moment
2:07:06
on 0345 6060973. Amelia Cox has your headlines. James O on LBC 14 is the time I tell you something If you think I bad at this job you should have known me when I was a showbiz editor Which is admittedly now a very very long time ago But there is a story in the news today that has brought back to me with blood accuracy what an appalling showbiz journalist I was
2:07:32
I was good at interviews. I'm not being conceited. I was good at interviews and I was good at writing
2:07:38
but I had absolutely no nose for a story which is a bit of a problem on the showbiz beat
2:07:46
The worst example ever was probably when I was backstage at a music show, a TV show, not Top of the Pops
2:07:54
but it was like, I'm very old you know so it was like an attempt to be like Top of the Pops
2:07:58
Is Top of the Pops even still going? Might have been the Pepsi chart show
2:08:02
and I saw Chris Evans coming out of Gerry Halliwell's dressing room
2:08:09
and I just thought to myself oh that's nice I didn't know they were friends
2:08:16
and then of course I got to work the next morning and every other newspaper
2:08:20
all of whom had been in attendance are running a story about a romance between Chris Evans and Gerry Halliwell
2:08:24
so I had absolutely no excuse I'd literally been there I think I even saw it
2:08:29
before other people did and I just managed to completely miss the boat
2:08:35
There's a story in the news today, it's Wednesday today, spoiler alert
2:08:39
there's a story in the news today that I have been aware of since Saturday and it didn't actually cross my mind to mention it
2:08:46
I don't know if it would have merited much coverage on LBC, to be honest with you, because it's very much a showbiz story
2:08:52
But I could easily have given a nod to a pal who's still on that pitiless beat
2:08:58
but I didn't because I am absolutely appalling at knowing what a story is and what a story isn't
2:09:05
Special prize today, a handshake and a pat on the head for anyone who can guess what story it is
2:09:10
In today's news, the showbiz story in today's news that I've known about for over half a week
2:09:19
Okay? And it comes with a punchline, this, so let's hope that I remember to tell you
2:09:24
1237 is the time. Where's Streeting? Cometh the hour, cometh the man, perhaps
2:09:30
Anthony's in Dartford. Anthony, what would you like to say? Hi, James, yes. We're living in an age of ping-pong politics
2:09:36
It's almost like a football management term, isn't it? You know, if you don't have two good games, you're out
2:09:42
You're out. You're literally out. The thing is, I feel a little bit torn all over the place, really
2:09:48
because Keir Starmer, yes, I know he's dull as dishwater, but he has scored some goals
2:09:53
He just hasn't had the celebrations. You know, he hasn't made the noise. Yes, I like that
2:09:57
But I don't think his and Angela Rayner's approach to politics has been extremely dynamic in any way whatsoever
2:10:07
I mean, when we go back to, you know, old Two Jags and Tony Blair
2:10:12
you know, they kind of appealed to both sides of the public, didn't they
2:10:18
Yes. You know what I mean? Yes, I do. And we just don't have that anymore
2:10:23
People want to be excited by politics. They're not. not with with stardom and stuff it's weird though because he defended ukraine he's coped with donald
2:10:31
trump's destruction of the atlantic alliance which is an extremely big deal historians will be
2:10:36
making a much bigger meal out of that than um than we have recently and and yeah there's a good piece
2:10:43
in the spectator actually that's just dropped by nick cohen um he points out he somehow ended up
2:10:47
more unpopular than liz trust despite never causing an economic crisis and more unpopular
2:10:51
than nigel farage even though the worst allegation against him was that he took free suits from a
2:10:56
friend rather than five million quid in secret from a crypto billionaire it is bonkers but it's
2:11:01
also true that's the problem isn't it that's what you're talking about but i mean when we're talking
2:11:06
about west street and stuff like you know and him coming in it's no surprise there's no surprise
2:11:12
that there is a challenge a challenge coming you know when when starmer seems to be at his weakest
2:11:20
at his most vulnerable. I mean, I don't like the way that Starmer treated Corbyn
2:11:26
ousting him from the Labour Party after, you know, Jeremy Corbyn got the most amount of memberships
2:11:31
for the Labour Party. Well, that was over a very specific thing that he was suspended from the Labour Party
2:11:37
It wasn't... I mean, it's not linked to his popularity or unpopularity as Labour leader
2:11:42
No, but again... But then when we say about his... He doesn't like to be challenged
2:11:46
I think he likes to be the top dog, you know? and I think he's very threatened by Andy Burnham
2:11:52
We saw it again, didn't we, a few weeks ago, you know, when Andy Burnham was on the fence
2:11:57
whether he's going to be the mayor or stand to be an MP again. That was blocked
2:12:02
Yeah, and Angela Rayner has come out and said so, of course. She doesn't approve of that. Yeah
2:12:06
So I just think that Starmer is... He's vanilla, isn't he? He's magnolia
2:12:14
He doesn't really... He can't be vanilla, mate, because everybody hates him. Vanilla is like a byword
2:12:18
It's not. He's Marmite, except nobody loves him. I know what you mean
2:12:23
I know what you mean. A lot of people don't like Magnolia either. They don't choose it these days
2:12:28
Magnolia. What do you think? I mean, in a sense, because of course Roland Smith has thrown a bit of a cat among my pigeons
2:12:35
by pointing out Streeting might know he can't win, but he's decided someone's got to do something and nobody else is going to
2:12:40
So he's like the, forgive this ogy, Anthony, because it takes us a long way from sport
2:12:45
unless you're very familiar with the career of Gary Lineker. Wes Streeting is playing the role of the laxative here
2:12:50
in the process of flushing out Keir Starmer. Yeah, he is. But look at him
2:12:56
He's a very... What's the word? Ambitious guy. Clearly. He's extremely ambitious
2:13:04
He's rocketed through. He's done some good things. He's tried to, you know, pick up the NHS, digitalise it
2:13:11
You know, he's got rid of NHS England. He's done some good things. He has done some good things
2:13:17
But is he just another one who is out for himself? I don't know
2:13:21
Well, I don't think any of them are, to be honest with you. Not in this iteration of the Labour Party
2:13:25
I don't think any of them are out for themselves in quite such a base way as some people are
2:13:31
And by complete coincidence, some more breaking news for you. The Parliamentary Standards Commissioner
2:13:35
has revealed that it will be launching an investigation into Nigel Farage's secret £5 million donation
2:13:41
from a cryptocurrency billionaire set to make absolutely unimaginable fortunes from policies that Nigel Farage has already announced
2:13:48
that he would introduce if he ever became prime minister. The billionaire, of course, who owns 12% of the company
2:13:53
that Nigel Farage sat in this very studio praising and promoting without revealing to Nick
2:13:59
who was conducting the interview at the time, that he'd just trousered 5 million quid from the bloke who owned 12% of it
2:14:04
That on top of the 22 million quid that the same bloke had given to Farage's various political parties
2:14:10
and the 1 million quid that he gave to Boris Johnson. There is a story doing the rounds. A lot of you are cross with me for not talking about it
2:14:17
Listen, we are subject to law like everybody else is. So if one hideous character threatens
2:14:25
to take legal action against another hideous character over allegations made by the second hideous character about the first hideous character I have to wait until my lawyers tell me that I can cover that story so um don be a fool and think that it evidence of me not wanting to talk about something or or being um being frightened or or cowled at least nobody suggested i been
2:14:45
silenced that ship seems to have sailed anthony great stuff mike's in sutton mike what made you
2:14:50
pick up the phone hi james listen to you um since before it was popular this is the first time
2:14:55
I think I've ever been... Since before it was fashionable. Yeah, and this is the first time I felt sufficiently passionate
2:15:04
to call you up about something, believe it or not. Yeah, go on. Look, I'm fuming
2:15:08
Look, full disclosure, I'm a Labour Party member. I'm a bit of a star, my loyalist, so that's where I come from
2:15:14
I don't think West Street team quite realises within the party that most of his support are from people like me
2:15:20
on that side of the party that will be absolutely fuming about this
2:15:25
you know it's absolute madness and he's he'll have alienated a massive proportion of the people
2:15:32
like me that thought you know what one day after starman's gone or whatever happens would vote for
2:15:37
Wes next not a chance now i tell you what five years time if it's burnham and street in and i
2:15:42
really dislike burnham i'd vote so this is what about that suggestion that street thing is
2:15:48
forcing the issue without much hope of actually coming out on top
2:15:54
Well, I think people suggesting that probably aren't talking about the same way Street Team the rest of us now
2:15:58
I think he's an incredibly ambitious person. And I would be highly sceptical of anything like that being pushed
2:16:07
And do you know what? He wouldn't win. If Starmer stood, Starmer wins. If somebody else stands against Street Team
2:16:13
there's a whole host of other people that would be more popular in the Labour Party to the left. so he's opening it back up again
2:16:18
I cannot understand it for the life of me James No, well except that
2:16:23
he really does feel and a lot of people around him and other contenders really do feel
2:16:29
that Starmer's reached the end of the road and you categorically don't feel that
2:16:33
I'm afraid I'm rather pathetically oscillating between thinking that and not thinking that
2:16:37
for which I can only apologise but at least I'm honest you think Starmer deserves to be given another chance
2:16:44
as he pleaded for on Monday yeah i mean look i'm not i'm not immune to it or james i mean you'd have to have your head in the
2:16:51
sand but i have an element of trust i have an element of respect for what the fourth guy to
2:16:56
win labour in election to give him more than two years we're becoming a country that if we allow
2:17:01
that to happen whatever party it is it becomes ungovernable that's my worry let's give the guy
2:17:06
a bit of a chance you know and if you're a year 18 months out from election then you can have that
2:17:11
conversation but it's just madness two years in absolute madness yeah that's my worry and then if
2:17:17
whoever comes up next doesn't produce the goods in five minutes flat they'll start talking about
2:17:21
replacing him or her as well and i'm afraid that is feasible now and it used to be a conservative
2:17:25
condition and now it would appear to have been contagious and it's infected labor as well it is
2:17:31
12 45 you are listening to james o'brien on lbc um i may catch up i don't know if there is any more
2:17:38
information to give you but that five million pounds that nigel farage accepted in secret from
2:17:44
a cryptocurrency billionaire based in thailand called christopher harborn who uses a different
2:17:48
name when conducting business in thailand um is being investigated uh by the parliamentary
2:17:54
commissioner despite nigel farage insisting that they'd already investigated it themselves and he
2:17:59
had absolutely nothing to account for it's 12 45 james o'brien on lbc uh 12 48 is the time you are
2:18:07
listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I said I'd tell you what the story was
2:18:14
Eric Clapton was on stage in Barcelona at the weekend. I think it was Barcelona
2:18:19
And some fool in the audience threw a record at him. A sort of a record in a record sleeve
2:18:27
And as a consequence of that, he called off the concert. He left the stage a little early
2:18:32
much to, of course, the disappointment of the people that were in the crowd
2:18:36
He's 81 years old and as he was walking off stage to prepare for his encore
2:18:41
the vinyl sleeve came spinning towards him, hitting him in the chest
2:18:45
which would be really scary, wouldn't it? Regardless of your age, if you were on a stage and someone threw something at you
2:18:52
it would really disturb you. My friend Mike was in the audience
2:18:56
Mike Sanchez himself, an absolutely brilliant musician, who's on tour in the UK this summer and who has supported Eric Clapton in the past
2:19:04
and he brought it to my attention on Saturday but with my classic, in my classic tradition
2:19:10
as a first class showbiz journalist the worst showbiz journalist ever I completely missed the fact that this would constitute a proper news story
2:19:18
until yesterday when it started appearing on all the news sites and today when it's appeared in your newspapers
2:19:23
Eric Clapton walking out of a concert after being hit in the chest by a record
2:19:29
apparently, get ready for this Keith, you'll like this one apparently he was backstage
2:19:34
and they were saying to him and it's terrible someone's thrown a record at you Eric
2:19:38
but are you going to go back on? and he said no I'm not and that's vinyl yeah
2:19:45
vinyl? Rachel's in Manchester Rachel what would you like to say? I'm just infuriated
2:19:51
if I'm being honest it has become a circus an absolute circus
2:19:57
I think for people like me who's a labour you know lifelong Labour voter
2:20:02
I'm a single mum. I earn a good salary. You know, I'm in £50,000
2:20:07
a year and I'm struggling. I think what the Labour Party is failing to
2:20:11
see here, the problem isn't Keir. The problem is the party. They've got no plan
2:20:17
They can't move fast enough on things. They've become the party of benefits
2:20:21
And I could not vote for West Street. He's not someone I would think
2:20:28
could do a better job than Keir Starmer. So what is the plan that West Street has today
2:20:33
Well, I mean, I suppose we'd have to hear him out first before we could conclude that..
2:20:37
I don't think he'd have anything to say, James. What could he possibly say
2:20:41
Just to clarify, it was Madrid, not Barcelona, where Eric Clapton got hit with a record sleeve
2:20:46
But that's not necessary. It's obviously not at the top of your list of priorities at the moment
2:20:51
Not right now. I just think this whole thing is infuriating. I'm at a point now where..
2:20:57
What are we going to do as a country? because I can tell you if West Street pulls the trigger today
2:21:02
the Labour Party can say goodbye to the next general election. Why do you think that
2:21:07
Because Starmer is unspeakably unpopular. But is it Starmer that's unpopular? No, it is
2:21:12
No, it is. I don't get it, but it is. I mean, his personal popularity rating is off the charts
2:21:18
Because people are not educated in politics. And what happens is nowadays
2:21:23
when people don't see change fast enough, they blame the politician, the prime minister
2:21:27
All the reform voters think that Keir Starmer's to blame for the fact that the votes keep coming in
2:21:33
Not the Conservatives, so that's why he's unpopular. West Street will be just as unpopular
2:21:38
The next Labour leader will be just as unpopular. There is no end to this
2:21:43
Well, we've talked a lot on this programme. Indeed everyone who does this for a living has talked a lot about Starmer personal and particular set of skills about his club ability his intonation his voice his delivery his confidence All of those things would be different
2:21:56
with a change of leader. We talk a lot about charisma without being 100% sure what it means
2:22:01
Well, West Street hasn't got any charisma. No, but Angela Rayner has. Angela Rayner has. No, I agree. I completely agree
2:22:05
You know, I could probably put a vote behind Angela Rayner. Yes
2:22:09
Andy Burnham, not so much. I don't think he's got the charisma
2:22:13
that she holds, but she would be very unpopular with certain parts of the party
2:22:17
And they would come for her with not just the political bias, but with all of the misogyny and the rest of it
2:22:23
and the snobbery that underpins newspapers owned by various Viscounts and foreign billionaires
2:22:30
Streeton is making a huge mistake, because if he thinks that people are going to get behind him
2:22:36
most of the country right now are pointing the finger at Keir Starmer
2:22:40
because they don't understand that the problems that we're having they're due to wars in Iran, Brexit, all of those things
2:22:47
14 years of Tory rule. But isn't it on him, final question, shouldn't he have made that case more powerfully than Rachel
2:22:53
Yeah, and you know what, like I said, for me, care can go, but it's who's going to replace him
2:22:59
And right now they don't have a plan or a person who's any better. So if I was them, I'd shut up until they did
2:23:05
And that's all I can say, honestly. Give her a cup of tea
2:23:09
Oh, fantastic. Great stuff. Thank you, Rachel. No, thank you. We'll do this again, I hope
2:23:14
No support whatsoever for Wes Streeting at the moment. And this is, you know, I am essentially a left-leaning radio presenter
2:23:22
albeit that I'm the king of the centrist dads. I am surprised. There's nobody, given the amount of clamour for change
2:23:30
you'd think somebody would at least be saying thanks, Wes, whether you end up winning or not
2:23:33
At least someone is pressing the button. At least someone is stirring the pot
2:23:38
but at the moment, extraordinary levels of opposition and disappointment in West Street
2:23:44
Natasha Clark is back in the studio. What do we know about this investigation into, what's his name again
2:23:49
The chap who accepted a secret £5 million from a cryptocurrency billionaire based in Thailand
2:23:54
who uses a different name to conduct his business in Thailand, which I will remember by one o'clock today
2:23:58
That's the one. Yes, so according to reports in the BBC, they understand that the Parliamentary Standards Commissioner
2:24:05
has decided to begin an inquiry into whether the reform leader, Nigel Farage
2:24:09
breached House of Commons rules by accepting that £5 million gift. We know that he hasn't declared it
2:24:16
And whenever reporters have approached him about this, the Reform Party leader and indeed the Reform Party
2:24:21
have repeatedly said that under their understanding of the rules, they think he doesn't need to declare it
2:24:26
They think it doesn't breach rules. And they think that Nigel Farage has accepted legal counsel
2:24:32
which has told him that he didn't need to do so. and it's unclear at the moment whether this is indeed uh open this investigation is indeed
2:24:41
definitely open because they've not given us the statement it's just the report from the bbc's
2:24:45
chris mason again we talk of reputable journalism he is of course a reputable journalist and reputable
2:24:49
source but we have not got a statement yet from the parliamentary authorities um confirming uh
2:24:54
this news now we usually do get a statement from them saying that they have had these allegations
2:24:59
reported to them indeed they will open investigation but we have not had that news
2:25:03
indeed many MPs do think that that that this was inevitable that he was going to face such a probe
2:25:08
um but again when I've been speaking to people within the reform party they're confident that
2:25:11
Nigel Farage has done nothing wrong although I've seen various interviews in which various because
2:25:16
they've all given money to the party haven't they all the senior members Nick Candy the treasurer
2:25:20
has given million uh this Christopher Harbourn character otherwise known as Chakrit Sakunkrit
2:25:25
based in Thailand he's given 22 million pounds I think to the reform party to the party five
2:25:30
million to Farage. Richard Tice has given millions to the party. Zia Yusuf has given a lot of money
2:25:36
to them. There's no one in that up apart from poor old 30p Lee. They've all given money to the party
2:25:42
but this is money given to Farage personally. Exactly, and the rules are different. But what
2:25:47
they're not confident of, I've heard various members of that inner circle, or sort of donor
2:25:52
circle, being asked whether or not they're confident he hasn't taken money from anybody else
2:25:56
and none of them can say that they are confident that he hasn't taken money from anybody else
2:26:00
because if he has, he hasn't shared it with them. Just like, presumably, he didn't share this one either
2:26:05
Yes, and again, it's not clear how this information got into the public domain
2:26:09
because, of course, it was before Nigel Farage was an MP and there are different rules which, you know
2:26:14
you don't have to abide by if you're not an MP. You don't have to declare. If you or I, James, managed to get our hands on £5 million
2:26:21
we don't need to declare it. But this is different. The rules for elected politicians are, of course
2:26:25
understandably much much higher and do need to be declared if you're if you're getting that that
2:26:30
sort of money and declared um but equally it hasn't been done so nigel farage believes that
2:26:34
because he wasn't an mp at the time um he doesn't didn't need to and i'm sure you you've been hearing
2:26:39
him when he's been speaking about this and lots of journalists have been asking about this he
2:26:42
hasn't been hugely willing to answer questions on it but he has um implied that the information
2:26:50
that was released uh about this has been gotten by illegal means now he hasn't told us exactly what
2:26:55
that meant or what's happening. I'm hearing from my sources in the Reform Party that they're
2:26:59
considering taking legal action over this. They have said that before. But again..
2:27:03
A lot of legal action going, being considered over there at the moment. Indeed, indeed. But like I say, they believe that Nigel Farage has sought legal counsel
2:27:11
has spoken to people and he doesn't believe that he needs to declare this. I'm just getting..
2:27:18
Just to be absolutely clear, regardless of whether... No one is disputing that he took
2:27:24
five million pounds in secret from this billionaire who's based in Thailand and has made all of his
2:27:29
money out of cryptocurrency and shortly afterwards announced policies he would introduce as prime
2:27:33
minister that would be to the immeasurable benefit of cryptocurrency billionaires just like the one
2:27:38
who gave him five million pounds in secret that he chose not to tell anybody about yeah completely
2:27:42
completely um just yeah just to bring to you one of my sources has said uh that they are aware that
2:27:48
this is this is the case that this story is true again we haven't got a comment from the commissioner
2:27:52
but I can tell you that one of my sources in Parliament has said, you know, we can say that LBC understands that this is the case
2:27:59
that the Parliamentary Standards Commissioner, Daniel Greenberg, has written to MPs and to parties interested and involved
2:28:06
to say that he has opened an investigation into Nigel Farage. That's being confirmed by our sources now here at LBC
2:28:12
A question is also being asked today about some helicopter rides that he took in the course of campaigning
2:28:18
but we are almost out of time, so they'll have to wait for another day
2:28:22
Thank you very much indeed, LBC's political editor, Natasha Clarke, in the middle of what I suspect will continue to be a rather busy day
2:28:29
President Trump has just landed in Beijing. Whether or not he's aware of that, I'll leave you to decide for yourself
2:28:35
But the rest of us can say with some confidence that that is quite an important trip about which we will learn more in the course of today and indeed tomorrow
2:28:44
If you missed any of today's show, you can listen back on our free Global Player app or the LBC app where you can also stay up to date with all the latest news, videos and opinions
2:28:51
you can listen to a range of podcasts including James O'Brien Daily the best bits from my LBC show every day
2:28:56
so do download the official LBC app for free from your app store now
2:29:00
Tom Swarbrick will be with you at 4 but now it's time for Sheila Fogart
2:29:04
James O'Brien on LBC

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