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There's no guarantee Andy Burnham wins this by-election | James O’Brien - The Whole Show
May 16, 2026
This is a catch-up version of James O'Brien's live, daily show on LBC Radio from the 15th of May, 2026. 00:00 - MP resigns, clearing the way for Andy Burnham's path to Parliament - What do you think about all this? 47:54 - If you're from Manchester, what do you make of Andy Burnham? 01:25:12 - Farage says voters in Clacton "don't care" about £5M Donation - Shivani Sharma, LBC's reporter in Clacton-on-Sea 01:36:40 - Privately educated CEOs are seen by investors as a safer bet, despite not performing better than state educated counterparts, why? 02:14:12 – Full Disclosure: Russell Kane Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #jamesobrien #politics #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Four minutes after ten is the time
0:04
I was about to make a joke about a story breaking before I got to the end of my monologue
0:08
but one has broken before I actually got to the beginning of it. Allies of West Streeting have confirmed two journalists
0:15
I can see this from the Huffington Post, but there's no exclusive tag on it
0:19
so I presume that others have got the nod as well, that he will run in a future Labour leadership contest
0:26
to replace Keir Starmer as Prime Minister. one telling the HuffPost UK he has the numbers
0:31
and will be a candidate when there is a contest. So that's one of the known unknowns taken off the board
0:37
and transformed into a known known. It was a known unknown because it was known
0:43
that West Streeting had ambitions to be Prime Minister, but it was not known whether or not he had the numbers
0:47
to mount a leadership challenge or indeed the appetite at this point
0:51
We now know that he does. So my channeling of Donald Rumsfeld so far massively overshadows
0:57
is my channeling of Brenda from Bristol. That's the lady who said, oh no, not another one
1:02
When told about another imminent general election, I felt a bit like Brenda from Bristol yesterday
1:07
and so did you. It was Helen from Manchester, wasn't it, who encapsulated most of our thoughts
1:11
when she said, Wes, wind your neck in. And, and, and... I don't know why I said and three times then, either
1:18
But the... The pendulum, man. It's the pendulum. It just... You can't..
1:24
Nobody can have certainty at times like this, because nobody knows what's going to happen next
1:28
If you could sell people, you know, shares in people politically, which would you buy at the moment and which would you sell
1:37
Would you be selling Starmer and buying Burnham? Would you be hedging with Streeting
1:41
It's extraordinary, isn't it? And, of course, if you could know what the future held
1:46
you could make your decision now really easily. Will Andy Burnham translate extraordinary popularity in the North West
1:52
into comparable levels of popularity, or even simply much more personal popularity
1:59
than Keir Starmer across the entire country. What outcome renders Labour most likely to win another election
2:07
Keir Starmer retains power, whereas Striegsting achieves power. Andy Burnham nips in and wins power
2:15
Angela Raynaud, still not a dark horse necessarily, but very much in the mix, and Ed Miliband
2:21
I would mention briefly, because this week's Full Disclosure is with one of my favourite comedians
2:27
not with a politician, but if you want an introduction to almost all of the possible contenders
2:32
then they've all been on Full Disclosure, they've all sat down with me for an hour. So, Keir Starmer, Ed Miliband, Angela Rayner, Wes Streeting and Andy Burnham
2:41
They're the top five, right? They're the top five contenders under anybody's current reading of the situation
2:46
and they have all sat down on Full Disclosure to share a little bit more about what they're like
2:52
away from the bits of their life that you won't know about
2:56
or won't know so much about. Full Disclosure, if you've never listened to it, it kind of ends with people..
3:02
It ends at the point where you know what happens next. It wasn't necessarily conceived like that
3:09
It's just, of course, when you're having a conversation with you, you're more interested in the things that you don't know
3:12
than you are in the things that you do know. which brings us back to Donald Rumsfeld
3:16
There are known knowns, known unknowns, unknown knowns, and unknown unknowns, and possibly some other permutations thereof
3:23
regarding the current situation at the top of the Labour Party and the top of the country
3:30
I've got to tell you, my original intention this morning, I was preparing some comments about how selflessly West Streeting had acted
3:38
because it seemed to me he had concluded he didn't have the numbers to mount a leadership bid
3:43
but was so convinced that a change at the top was needed
3:46
that he was prepared to become, if you like, the stalking horse
3:50
and potentially the whipping boy for the party by kicking the door open, the door to a challenge
3:57
even though he wasn't poised or minded to rush through it himself
4:02
That's what I was planning to do at 10 o'clock this morning. It's a good job that the plans that I have on this programme
4:08
at least by way of the introduction, are never... Well, A, they're never written down, as you know
4:14
That's today's script, if you're watching on YouTube. And B, they can move on a sixpence
4:20
Sometimes I'll hear a story in the bulletin at 10 o'clock and think, oh, we should probably be talking about that instead
4:25
Such is my agility. So I was going to start cautiously praising West Streeting selflessness
4:34
and saying it's a very different act if it is undertaken in pursuit of any change
4:40
It's not undertaken for reasons of personal ambition. I was having, actually, precisely this conversation
4:45
about, ten, eight minutes after ten, so about 14 minutes ago, with our political editor, Natasha Clarke
4:52
about whether West Streeting was doing it in some sort of selfless sense
4:56
because he was so keen for change, or whether he was kicking down a door
5:00
that he intended to run through himself. And since we have come on air, we have discovered that he is intending
5:07
to run through it himself. We know that Andy Burnham is now hoping to be in Parliament
5:14
by the time this business begins. I mean, again, it gets even more murky, if you like that word
5:21
I've got quite a good new catchphrase that employs the word murky
5:26
that I may share with you a little later in the programme. You may have already seen it. I can't claim it as my own
5:30
Somebody else came up with it. I'll tell you what it is, but I won't tell you who I'm talking about, all right
5:36
The count of murky crypto. I quite like that. Don't you? Andy Burnham is going to be given a seat
5:46
or given a chance to fight for a seat, by an MP who was heavily, heavily, heavily associated
5:52
with the successful campaign of Keir Starmer to become Labour leader and subsequently Prime Minister
5:59
And he had to resign as a minister, the MP that is stepping aside
6:04
after it was reported that the think tank that he ran was sort of engaging in dirty tricks when it came to the targeting of journalists on
6:14
the Sunday Times. Josh Simons announced yesterday that he will stand down as the MP for Makerfield
6:20
which is in Wigan, not Manchester, to make way for a, quote, leader who has the radicalism
6:25
energy and immense courage to meet the moment. He is speaking, of course, of Andy Burnham. At
6:33
At least that is his reading of Andy Burnham. So I think this is one of those mornings where we just chew the fat together
6:42
I'd like to ask specific Mancunian questions about Andy Burnham. I think that the popularity ratings that he has in the Northwest
6:55
are not understood by many people outside the Northwest. so I'm going to enlist your help with that
7:02
in the second hour of the programme but I think in the first hour I just, I can't quite just say
7:08
how are you how do you feel about all this can I, can I do that Keith
7:14
I mean I've done it before I mean don't just ring in a cell I'm very well thank you James, how are you
7:18
that would just be weird but the it's the counter isn't it
7:24
to where we were yesterday that why this is difficult I think we ended yesterday program with a sense that the moment had probably passed and the appeal of stability was dominant
7:41
Obviously we don't all move as one. We're not all sort of coming off at one o'clock or at 12
7:47
noon yesterday because of course we had mystery out. I'm all persuaded of the same thing but I did
7:51
like the caller who said I wanted a leadership election until I heard another caller explain
7:54
why she didn't want a leadership election, and now I think I don't want a leadership election. And at one o'clock yesterday
8:00
I, A, didn't want another round of infighting in the Labour Party
8:06
and B, I didn't think I was going to get one. It shows how quickly things can change
8:11
And if you needed more evidence of how quickly things can change, then I give you Wes Streeting letting it be known now
8:18
that he is intending to run when the battle actually commences. It was supporters of Keir Starmer who had claimed
8:29
that he didn't have enough support from MPs. He is now convinced that he does
8:34
So, yeah, I think, first up, early doors, what do you make of all this
8:39
0345 6060 973. There was quite a lot of anger on the programme yesterday
8:46
about the perception of self-inflicted wounds. And what irritates me, and I do have a bead on this
8:55
I do know roughly where I am, I'm just a little bit conscious of flip-flopping
9:01
but what irritates me most is that the two figures most responsible
9:06
for damaging or for inflicting immense political damage on Labour and Keir Starmer last week
9:13
are having a really bad time. Farage's constantly changing stories about money
9:20
received secretly from economic migrants in Thailand is, even by his very dismal standards
9:28
this is a grim story. They'll try and style it out. They'll bet the house on their followers
9:32
being too racist to care about anything except promises to be horrible to foreigners
9:36
And some of their supporters will pretend that they don't care about politicians
9:40
trousering secret donations from economic migrants. and Zach Polanski, I mean, if there's one thing that a party leader has to do
9:48
you know, the one-job territory, so you have one job, then voting for your own party would be pretty near the top of the list
9:56
of things that you just presume happened. Turns out Zach Polanski didn't even vote for his own party last week
10:02
He didn't vote for anyone. So they're having a time of it, both of these characters, these populists
10:07
and if you don't like the conflation of both of these men as populists
10:11
populists and um i understand that you may not then you need to listen to zach polanski telling
10:18
ian dale that he kind of wanted to be a farage of the left so it's this isn't a comparison that
10:24
is being foisted upon him this is a comparison that um he has made himself i should be absolutely
10:30
clear about that uh so they're having a tough time they are having a bad time i i varying degrees i
10:38
I mean, it seems to me, frankly, ridiculous to compare his council tax confusions
10:43
regarding a c boat with a secret £5 million donation. But some of the most corrupt people in this business
10:49
are probably going to be comparing a £5 million donation kept secret
10:52
to a pair of spectacles made public, such as the desperation of client journalism in this country
10:58
But you could agree that Starmer, unchallenged, could be making some hay from the travails and the difficulties
11:06
He's being faced by the two men who inflicted the most damage on him last week
11:10
But no, up pops West Streeting to turn it into civil war, potentially
11:15
and take the spotlight away from the enemies of the party, the enemies, the political enemies of everybody in Labour
11:24
But the thing that happened to me yesterday that I was a little bit surprised by
11:29
and a little bit disappointed in myself with when I came off air
11:33
was the pressing of the pause button on dissatisfaction with Keir Starmer
11:38
I don't want to be dissatisfied with Keir Starmer. And the emotional pull of, A, that sort of loyalty to your own vote, as it were
11:50
and B, the appeal, the seductive nature of stability, leads you to forget just how unimpressed or how unhappy you were
12:00
with his performance as Prime Minister a month ago. And whether it is the absolutely unavoidable observation that he has gone after reform voters and ignored traditional Labour voters
12:15
a mistake of epic proportions because A, reform voters are never going to vote for somebody who is pretending to be a bit racist instead of somebody who is an out-and-out racist
12:24
and B, it's the Greens who are taking bigger chunks out of some Labour votes
12:29
and that is a direct consequence of Labour going down a path
12:33
that had been set, if you like, by the far right elements of British politics
12:39
So very unhappy about that. Very unhappy about the missteps. Very unhappy that the man, the one thing
12:46
was it only last Monday, was it this Monday that we opened the show by expressing dissatisfaction
12:51
deep dissatisfaction at the fact that the one thing you could bet
12:55
the one thing everybody thought he would bring was process and a sort of managerial competence
13:02
Was that only Monday? Crikey. I'll tell you what, lads. A week is a long time in politics, isn't it
13:09
I think it was on Monday that I opened the show with the observation that there's very little you can say
13:14
with absolute confidence and very little you can say that might constitute consensus
13:18
but Keir Starmer was elected with enemies and admirers alike convinced that he was going to provide process-driven competent management
13:29
that was the one thing he might not have stardust he might not sparkle
13:33
he might not be a great orator or be possessed of whatever charisma actually is
13:38
he might not pursue cheap victories he might not be the most exciting
13:43
all of those things he might not like his intonation that word popped up a lot didn't
13:47
But everybody accepted that he was going to be a paragon of competent, process-driven manager-erialism
13:56
He was going to be a safe pair of hands. The adults, many of us attested two years ago, were back in the room
14:04
And he's blown that. And if you read Wes Streeting's letter yesterday, you will see that that sense of something being blown is very real and very big
14:15
and that necessitates, in the mind of Wes Streeting and Andy Burnham and many others
14:20
that necessitates change. Or at least it necessitates challenge. And that's what we've got
14:29
We've got a challenge. 03456060973. As a loyalty to my own vote
14:36
I mean, indulging in the thing I always attack you for. There's a little bit of footballification going on here
14:42
A little bit of, well, that's what I voted for. It's only been two years. It's not time to abandon it now
14:48
But a month ago, and in the horns of the last U-turn
14:54
and the last deep disappointment the last failure you found yourself thinking is it ever going to get better Is it possible that those great political prophets of 1997 D Reem were wrong when they insisted
15:09
that things can only get better? Perhaps things can still get worse. And that is where I, and that
15:15
is where Keir Starmer finds himself this morning. So I am sympathetic to the seductive nature of
15:23
stability. I don't want another fight. I'm tired and I'm bruised, you might say, as a voter
15:30
But that doesn't cancel out the possible necessity of change. That doesn't cancel out
15:35
the widespread perception that Kirsten Hammer has already blown it. And that is why
15:40
many people, perhaps, this morning are unhappy but resigned to the need for a leadership challenge
15:50
But here I am, putting words in your mouth. I don't need to. You can put words in your own mouth and share them with me by dialing 0345 6060 973
15:59
And of course, you know, politics being politics, there's no guarantee, there's no stone-cold guarantee that Andy Burnham will win the by-election that is about to be called as a consequence of Josh Simons resigning
16:10
I think that's probably among the known unknowns. I think that's one of the least likely outcomes
16:17
I mean, it would be funny on one level if they went to all this trouble and then lost a by-election
16:22
But I don't, as it stands, think that is likely to happen. There becomes a sort of almost an urban loyalty, a tribal loyalty
16:29
You know, it's our man could be getting the big job. So, of course, you want to have a prime minister in your constituency
16:35
I just think that might kick in. But we need to be aware of the fact, of course, that nothing is certain in politics
16:41
And a 5,400 majority at the last general election in a constituency where Reform UK performed extremely well at the locals just last week is by no stretch of the imagination a slam dunk or a done deal
16:56
So that's a known unknown or an unknown known, whichever way around you prefer
17:01
But as it stands, this is a conversation about what is happening, what will happen next, and what you feel about all of it, what you think and feel about all of it
17:11
21 minutes after 10. 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need
17:18
Do we need this? Or is it, dread word, unnecessary and unwanted psychodrama
17:26
James O'Brien on LBC. It's 23 minutes after 10 and of course there'll be plenty of people listening to this
17:34
who will have votes in any imminent leadership election. At 10 o'clock this morning I thought there was a possibility
17:42
that Andy Burnham's passage to power would be almost unchallenged by anyone except Keir Starmer
17:49
Well you know that's not the case because we know that at least one other person is going to throw his hat into the ring when the time comes
17:54
because West Streeting has made that clear this very morning. But what we don't know, and what nobody knows, is A, whether or not things can only get better
18:04
or whether or not things can get worse, and B, what this does, what this all does to the voter
18:10
I can't tell you whether this is a necessary realignment or an unnecessary psychodrama
18:17
But I also, actually, I'll shut up for a while, sorry. Anne's in Lemster. Anne, what would you like to say
18:23
Well, I'd like to say that I am very, very upset. And there are the names
18:30
Andy Berman... I'm going to have to do something about your phone there, Anne. I don't know. Sorry
18:35
I absolutely want to hear what you have to say because you are very, very upset, as you said
18:41
But the phone line there wasn't quite up to sniff. So the questions that we're asking are pretty clear
18:50
Where are we now and how do you feel about it? 24 minutes after 10 is the time
18:54
You won't be able to get through to the studio at the moment, but I don't currently have anybody else to talk to
18:59
And so just bear with me for a moment. And I'll probably swap some jokes with Keith in a minute
19:04
Anthony's in Northwich. Anthony, what would you like to say? Hi, James. Thanks for taking my call
19:09
You're very welcome. It's just the hotspot almost to Andy Burnham, just to think that, you know, I must be prime minister now
19:19
so I'm going to create two very losable by-elections. and then no guarantee that he's actually going to
19:28
win a seat, probably lose maybe the Manchester Realty to the Greens
19:31
who knows Is that a possibility? I haven't seen the numbers but it feels very possible
19:39
doesn't it, especially after Gorton and Denton Yeah, I mean and as you say the polling in Makerfield
19:45
I've seen the election maps UK that's pretty much safe reform Yeah, I think that that gets thrown into disarray by context and circumstance
19:54
but it's far from a cakewalk. So, I mean, yesterday there was a sense that Wes Streeting should wind his neck in
20:01
and let Keir Starmer get on with it. On this programme, and I was interested and a little bit troubled by the consensus
20:09
because I wasn't sure we were fairly reflecting the broader feelings. We may have been, there's no way of knowing, is there
20:14
And today you're leading the line on the Andy Burnham has got a bit up himself
20:18
A little bit. And he's prioritising personal ambition over party and country
20:26
It's the idea, I suppose, it harks back to, remember when Rishi Sunak made David Cameron..
20:31
Foreign Secretary. Foreign Secretary, put him in the Lords, and he looked at the entire panoply of Parliament and thought
20:37
nah, none are you, mate? Yeah. So it felt a little bit like that
20:41
I know you like quoting Michelin Webb. There's another slight sketch where he does the head of Hufflepuff
20:48
and so he looked deep into your souls and what was there evidently didn't impress
20:55
So we have to go with Burnham. I hadn't thought of that. I mean, he's, I suppose, a clean skin, to use another ogy
21:02
despite being Labour through and through and having held cabinet-level positions. And I think he's had two tilts at the leadership before
21:08
He has. I think he's got short memories. He's a clean skin in some ways
21:11
or at least he's perceived as a clean skin. I mean, the only challenge to what you've said
21:15
and this is where my own uncertainties begin to flower, is that him, Streeting's letter
21:23
certainly conveyed somebody who simply feels that Starmer has blown it. I mean, you know, there's always personal ambition
21:31
You don't go into politics without somewhere inside dreaming of being Prime Minister one day
21:35
If they both feel that Starmer has blown it, then the ambition prioritised over party argument
21:42
actually isn't fair. No, and as you say, if Streeting, sorry I'll get my words out, has done it for a very altruistic reason, then yes, maybe there's a point to be made if he's not actually doing it to himself, but it's almost then what happens next, and it's like, Birdman's created an impossibly high bar for himself to clip, for all the things he has to do to get there
22:09
The possibility of losing the by-election and the mayoralty is real. And what would that do to Keir Starmer's position
22:16
I actually don't know. I mean, technically it would strengthen it, but actually it would mean that the party he leads
22:21
increasingly resembles a clown car at the circus Let get back to Lemster which Oh hang on a minute we run out of time We come to Anne first after the half news I think Actually Anthony if it is to go to The Wire who do you want to prevail
22:39
Out of... Out of anyone? Out of anyone? Yeah, you can throw Keith into the mix if you want, although he hasn't declared yet
22:45
I'm pretty sure Keith would do a good job. Oh, you must be joking. Go on, who do you fancy for it? And Starmer is still in the mix, remember? but..
22:54
Starmer's still in the mix. Oh, goodness, tell me off for this
22:58
but I'm going to go with Angela Rayner. Yeah, fair enough. I think she's probably
23:02
a little bit underpriced at the moment, and the attacks that the right-wing media
23:06
will already be preparing, if they haven't started already, will be probably more vituperative
23:12
and vicious in the case of Angela Rayner, because, of course, the political project
23:15
that the right-wing media supports is largely built on keeping workers compliant
23:22
by feeding them an unleavened diet of racism, misogyny, and in recent years, climate change denial
23:28
So Ed Miliband is on the hook for the last one. Angela Rayner is on the hook for the second one
23:34
It's coming up to half past ten. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC, where, you know, some days that line
23:39
good for business but bad for the soul, it feels like, I mean, it is good for business
23:44
Everybody wants to talk about this, but it does also feel a little bit draining
23:49
a little bit, not boring, because it's the future of our country that is in the tumble dryer
23:55
but just a little bit draining and dispiriting that we're doing this all again
24:00
And there, in the space of half an hour, he goes from channeling Donald Rumsfeld back to channeling Brenda from Bristol
24:06
Here's Dominic Ellis with the headlines. James O'Brien on LBC. 10.32 is the time
24:12
One of the many things I love about my job is the bridge that it builds between the bubble and the outside world
24:19
And I never know for sure how the outside world feels about the things that the bubble is obsessed with until I ask you
24:26
Yesterday was a very instructive morning. And the sense I got from people who want the best for this country and therefore the best for the current government
24:36
was that this round of internecine warfare was unwelcome. I'm resetting that question a bit today, now that we know that the internecine warfare is close to inevitable
24:47
with a reminder of just how dissatisfied many, many, many people our stroke were
24:54
with Keir Starmer's premiership. And that sense conveyed by Wes Streeting yesterday
24:59
that no matter he's only had two years in the top job, he has already blown it
25:04
And he's in Lemster with a better phone line. Anne, what would you like to say? Yeah, morning, Geoffrey
25:08
That's more like it. Yeah, right. I just want to say, first of all, how do I feel
25:14
I've been shouting at the radio and the television since yesterday. I am very angry, I'm very upset, and I'm very appalled
25:24
And I'm a member of the Labour Party, and I really feel Andy Burnham particularly has let us down
25:31
And you know we talk about the known and the unknown. Well, we do know that Andy Burnham couldn't beat Jeremy Corbyn in the last round
25:41
Well, nobody could, to be fair. Well, admittedly, but he, if you remember
25:45
do you remember they had those little motorbikes and he was flip-flopping around, Andy Burnham
25:50
And it was appalling. What do you mean he was flip-flopping around on a little motorbike
25:55
Did you remember they had this thing? It was a cartoon thing
26:00
Oh, I see. Okay. Anyway, as a result of that, I think he's very self-seeking
26:06
and his ego is enormous. It's bigger than the Labour Party. You think so
26:11
And I do. And the other thing, I remember him saying that when he became mayor of Manchester
26:17
it was the best job in the world, and he would never, ever, ever become an MP again
26:24
So we all know that. So the unknown is whether he's going to win this by-election
26:30
And if you think about it, we've got to wait now six weeks if the NEC agree to him standing
26:38
Have the by-election. Then we've got to go all through the summer if there's going to be a leadership challenge
26:47
Yes. Then we get a conference, and if somebody wins, if it's not Keir Starmer
26:54
then they're anointed at conference. I mean, it's just terrible with what's going on in this country and the outside world
27:02
But it would all be forgotten by the time of the next general election, and the defence of the pretenders to the Crown would be
27:10
whoever ends up wearing it, will be that we've got a better chance of winning now
27:13
than we would have done if we hadn't done what we did two and a half years ago. I disagree
27:18
Clearly. Yes, I do. I think that Keir Starmer, for all his faults
27:22
has done really quite a good job against all the odds over the last two years
27:27
And for heaven's sake, we have got a huge majority. Let's get on with governing, not all this psychodrama
27:34
Yeah. But he's not done a very good job of governing. This is, I think, I gave myself a B yesterday after the programme
27:41
which is rare for me, because I normally give myself an A quadruple star. And I don't ask anybody else's opinion
27:47
But I only gave myself a B yesterday, because I think I forgot, I let go of dissatisfaction with Starmer
27:53
as a key part of this story. And you are doing that today. No, I do
27:59
Do you know what I would have liked to have happened? And I think should be happening
28:03
I don't think Starmer should clean this into the next election. I think a year before, or 18 months before the next election
28:11
he should have stood down and there should have been basically a calm way
28:18
of getting a new leader in that's got plenty of time to perform well
28:23
before we go into the next election. All this... I'm going to argue with you, Anne. Is that all right
28:31
Yes, you can. Well, but then you'd have the chaos fresh in the memory
28:35
because no one can control the process, either the incumbent or the challenger
28:40
No one can control the process. Even if Keir Starmer decided to go willingly
28:45
he wouldn't get to anoint a successor. That's your job as a party member
28:50
and it's highly unlikely that only one hat is going to land in that ring. So all of the things that are putting you off having it now
28:56
will still be true a year or 18 months out from a general election
29:00
but they will be much fresher in the electorate's memory when that election comes around
29:05
I think I disagree with you about that. Right. Who is to say that Andy Burnham or Wes Streeting or Rainer
29:14
are going to make any difference? I mean, we're assuming that the great Andy Burnham
29:21
comes in and changes everything. I don't think he can. I think that it will all go on the same as it always has
29:29
But then you're letting Starmer off the hook for his personal failing
29:34
So whether they're policy-based or whether they're perceived flaws in his character
29:38
they both change with a new leader. You no longer have the criticisms that are very personal to Keir Starmer applying
29:45
There might be a new set of criticisms. Absolutely. But there might not be
29:49
I mean, or there might be much smaller criticisms. There might be a much smaller target
29:52
I actually don't think that this psychodrama will be forgotten. I think it'd be brought up, the Conservatives aren't going to let us forget it
30:05
Well, that means they might. Charities nonsense won't let us forget it
30:08
It will be constantly brought up that we failed to govern this country
30:14
We were too busy arguing with each other. I mean, you do make a powerful point
30:21
I just don't quite buy the idea that a succession later in the electoral cycle
30:26
would insulate the party from any of the accusations that it will now face
30:31
And you remind me of the thing that probably animates me most at the moment, which is that the two characters who inflicted the most damage on Labour last week
30:38
are both on the hook this week. Farage in particular, all of this money
30:42
God knows how many donations he's taken from people. I mean, who here can really believe a word he says
30:47
He's already changed his story about why he took 5 million quid off the economic migrant Christopher Harbourn
30:52
who operates under a Thai name while doing business in Southeast Asia
30:57
It's just, it's obscene and absurd, this stuff. But the focus moves to the Labour Party
31:04
They're having an internal squabble when they should all be firing guns galore
31:08
at the two people who did the most damage to Zach Polanski. For me, this is a much less egregious issue
31:13
than any of the ones that Farage finds himself caught up in. But the fact that he didn't vote in the election last week
31:19
and appears to have lied about it or been at least dishonest about it
31:24
because he literally told a mayoral candidate, you have my vote. And he didn't vote
31:29
It'd be crikey, make a list of the things that party leaders have to do. And you wouldn't put vote for your party on the list
31:36
because you'd think that was too bleeded obvious. Zach Polanski somehow managed not to do it
31:40
And here we are having another civil war in the Labour Party. Thank you, Anne. Lovely stuff
31:45
Peter's in St. Albans. Peter, what would you like to say? Oh, hi, James
31:49
Hello, Peter. And thanks for letting me give an opposing viewpoint. You're very welcome
31:53
I'm absolutely delighted that Andy Burnham's come into this. And can I just make an important point before..
32:02
I think this is much wider... Well, before you make an unimportant point. Well, I mean, I could just sit here and tell you why I think Andy Burnham's great
32:10
Well, do that then. I just want to put it into some historical significance, because I believe he's the only person they've got in the Labour Party
32:18
who really will have the abilities and the skills to take on Farage and reform
32:23
I mean, he is the most popular nationally. He's coming out in the polls as the most popular
32:31
He's ran Manchester. He's had three big wins in Manchester, and he's managed to get loads of non-Labour voters
32:39
And he's not called the King of the North for nothing. But can I make another point
32:43
Because I know you might want to talk about Andy later in the programme. Don't do what you want. It's your show as much as mine, Peter. Fill your boots
32:51
I genuinely think that he's got a wider grasp of what's happening in Britain today
32:56
Okay. In the sense that 80% of people didn't vote Labour last week
33:02
And he knows this north-south gap probably a lot more than possibly the London-led part of the Labour Party
33:11
You know, I'm down here in the southeast, so I know how different it is and how comfortable it is in many ways, in the sense that a lot of people in those areas which voted for Farage and reform are experiencing, you know, quite serious cost of living issues
33:31
Now, I think Burnham gets all those things. He understands the difference, the gap
33:38
And did you know he went to Cambridge University when he was very young, obviously
33:43
Yes. And he said then that he recognised the gap. Obviously, at Cambridge, he learnt his literary skills
33:51
I think he did literature. He did. One of his first jobs was in Brentford, actually
33:56
while we're swapping Andy Burnham facts. Oh, right. My neck of the woods
34:00
So, I mean, he does have a foot at both ends of the country, doesn't he? And I don't know why I think that's important
34:06
I said yesterday it's my most shallow political opinion at the moment
34:09
but I think a Labour Party with a Northern accent goes into the next general election on a better footing
34:14
than a Labour Party with an accent like mine. I just do. I don't know why. I'm probably talking gibberish, but I just feel it in my water
34:20
I think you're right. I think, well, I wouldn't want to denigrate Keir too much
34:26
because he has done some really great stuff, but I think it has been a very much London-led Labour party
34:34
Well, yeah, and tin-eared when it comes to tackling some of the issues that you describe
34:37
and alienating traditional supporters by trying to sort of do a reform light on some issues
34:44
without being honest about what the impacts of plummeting legal immigration are going to be
34:49
Why is he? I mean, because he was a bit of a joke when he left Westminster. He wasn't, I mean, that may be a little unfair
34:56
but he certainly was perceived as a nearly man who was a little bit wishy-washy or flip-floppy, as Annin Lemster said
35:04
And this idea that he is reinvigorated, he's a man reborn, how has that happened? Where does that come from
35:13
I just get the feeling that he, after the Corbyn victory, he was, like, in fact, the mayor of London
35:23
people like that just drifted away. David Miliband drifted away. And I think they just felt that they wanted to do something else
35:30
because they were so... They just saw that it was going to be a period of irrelevance
35:36
and they didn't really want to have any part of it when they could go and be relevant somewhere else
35:41
David Miliband on the international aid front and Andy Burnham up in Manchester
35:46
Yeah, I mean, I think that's something we may indeed move on to a little later in the programme
35:50
but you've set the tone perfectly for us, Peter. It's a bit I don't quite get, and I pay quite a lot of attention to politics
35:56
And I have a deep affection for Manchester as well. I've spent some of the happiest times of my youth there
36:04
But I don't quite know why the Andy Burnham rebrand has been so successful
36:09
We'll get on to that shortly. It's 10.45. James O'Brien on LBC
36:14
It is 10.48, and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
36:21
The Green Party said that Zach Polanski had voted by post in Hackney on polling day
36:26
because eagle-eyed journalists noted that he hadn't done the traditional photo opportunity
36:32
at a local polling station and once again a backtrack. The party issued a statement yesterday explaining that he hadn't voted at all
36:42
Zach's living arrangements have been in flux in recent months and he has recently moved into a rented home
36:47
and then a slightly disingenuous attempt to do what Farage is doing at the moment
36:52
and trying to pass security issues as a reason for missteps, shall we say
37:00
or for perceived problems. And Labour is talking about itself again, talking to itself and tearing itself apart
37:11
Great trail from Lewis Goodall there, who will be with you this weekend, of course
37:16
and I mean he's got his ear a lot closer to the ground than I have
37:19
I generally avoid politicians like the plague unless they coming in for full disclosure If there is talk of extinction then the answer to why so many people have decided that it is better to tear the plaster off than to leave the wound festering
37:35
doesn't quite work, that ogy, but I'm sticking with it, becomes much easier to understand
37:40
And of course, you know, that sense that things can't get any worse may prove to be wrong, but you won't know unless you try it
37:49
Mark's in Brighton. Mark, what would you like to say? Hey James, how you doing
37:52
Hey Mark, I'm all good. How are you? I'm doing great, but let me start out by saying I have no dog in this hunt
37:59
Sure. I'm an American. Yeah, but you live here. Yeah, I do
38:03
I live in Brighton, lived here the last seven years. But let me start out by saying, number one
38:09
Keir Starmer, if he's going to survive this at all, needs to fire his comms shot
38:14
Fire them. Get rid of them. You had somebody on one of your colleagues shows
38:19
was it Tom Swarick, I think his name is? Something like that. Yeah
38:24
Okay. He had a caller who ran down a list of Keir Starmer's accomplishments
38:29
And when it was done, he said, Tom said, you know, you've done a better job than Starmer has
38:34
And it's absolutely true. Absolutely true. Now, that having been said, if I was running a comm shop, you know what recommendations I'd make no matter who it was who was running for office
38:48
One, eliminate the VAT from June to September. Why? Why? Because it puts money in people's pockets
38:56
Yeah, but, I mean, it takes money out of the treasury, which is on its opposite. Yeah, whatever. Let them find something for it. Give the people money
39:04
Yeah, no, I'm not having it. That's a silly idea, Mark. Why
39:08
Well, I mean, think of the costs that businesses would have. They'd have to change all their software on their computers
39:13
They'd have to change all the labelling. They'd have to take the signs down from little windows
39:17
They'd have to swap things. Nah, it's a daft idea. Yeah, let me tell you something
39:21
All right. You put money in people's pockets, it becomes less and less daft
39:26
Yeah, well, yeah, but then maybe they could find another way to give people a bung, give people a little bit of a boo
39:30
But also, that would give me more money than it would somebody who is on minimum wage
39:37
Okay, means test it if you have to. Well, come on now. It's falling apart, Mark
39:41
It's falling apart. No, no, give working people money. Okay. All right, number two
39:47
You're nationalizing the rail services. explain to people how that's going to make it better
39:53
That's a very good point. You know? And cheaper, ideally. I know, last time you travelled by train
39:58
but I had to sell a kidney the last time I went to Kitterminster. Yeah, I travel by train regularly between here and London
40:05
Yeah, it's not cheap. No, it's not cheap. I have a senior rail car
40:09
Full disclosure. Cheaper than mine, then. You know what? The two words that people who take the trains dread more than anything else
40:19
you know what they are? Tickets, please. Replacement buses. No, of course. Yes, of course it is
40:25
And there's plenty of them around. I suppose it depends whether you're a fair dodger or not. I was just harking back to my youth then
40:30
I want to just get a word from you on what is going on
40:35
not so much on what Starmer needs to do to save himself, but on how you see this period of conflict
40:45
Of unrest. Yeah, unrest is a great word. What I'm talking about would be applicable to anybody who aspires to the Labour leadership
40:52
It's not germane just to Starmer. And the third thing, the last thing, the thing that would take the longest to fix, the water
41:01
Water. Yep, the water. Because, you know, you had people for extended periods of time who had to use bottled water
41:09
They had to ship water in because the water was so full of crap. Indeed, indeed
41:14
I am going to say something that I don't know if it's entirely fair
41:19
I'm going to say if any of this was doable, then they would have done it. Oh, I don't think they thought of doing it
41:26
Oh, come on. The magic money tree. You're just shaking the magic money tree and all the coins are landing in people's pockets
41:31
The water companies, I mean, the idea that a government could easily have handled the water situation better
41:38
I just, and I'm not defending all the governments here, including the ones that privatized them
41:44
I don't know what you could do to make it. That's why it would be third on the list and not in front of the other two
41:51
What was second? The nationalization of the railways. Yeah, okay, that one might, but I don't know if it's a vote winner
41:56
I mean, look, there's stuff there. I'll take your original suggestion about the absolute failure of communication
42:03
And I'll look for the, I'm sure it's been clipped up of someone doing a better job on Tom Swarbrick's show of listing Labour achievements than the Labour Party themselves are doing
42:14
Part of the problem is platform, of course. You know, more likely to hear a Labour politician being asked 77 times how much a pint of milk is than you are to be offering them an opportunity to talk about what they've done to improve the lives of people in the country
42:29
and the newspapers generally don't see any clicks or mileage in calm accounts of mild success
42:37
But it's a point, isn't it? There's a failure of narrative, a failure of story
42:42
Thank you, Mark. 10.54 is the time. Neil is in at Rushcliffe, so from Brighton to Nottinghamshire
42:49
Neil, what would you like to say? Good morning, James. Hello, Neil. The thing that's really, I guess, in my mind about the current situation
42:56
is that I feel like there's a rather large elephant in the room that's in danger of being passed over
43:02
Go on. What my take is that Bando Starmer has been in lots of ways
43:07
The problems he is facing run much deeper than his leadership. Labour itself has such underlying deep issues
43:14
and those issues are still going to be there no matter who comes in next, whether it's any one of them, including St Andy
43:20
They're still going to have to face the same dilemma, and the dilemma is shown more than adequately
43:24
by the fact that Labour lost as many votes, almost, or certainly in principle
43:29
to the Greens as it did to the reform. So I think part of what Keir Starmer has struggled with himself
43:35
as well as his personal style, is the fact that Labour really doesn't ultimately have a clear view
43:41
on what it's trying to do and who for and how. The problems are much bigger than him
43:44
But you're completely, you're discounting entirely, and you may be right to do so
43:50
but a lot of people are not doing this. you're discounting entirely the toxic personal popularity ratings
43:56
that Starmer has secured. But he's secured those toxic ratings, James, from both sides of the spectrum, hasn't he
44:03
Yeah, but it's personal. This is one of the great mysteries of the last 12 months for me
44:09
Only so much of it can be chalked up to the toxicity of Twitter. No, it's visceral and personal
44:16
and anybody who's been on doorsteps campaigning, particularly in the run-up to last week's elections
44:21
will tell you they've never actually seen anything like it. They've never come across such a visceral, personal animosity
44:27
towards a man who has always struck me as being relatively innocuous
44:32
I'm personally not necessarily that surprised by that because I think that is the tip of the iceberg
44:38
of the way that our politics have become not just more partisan but the role social media is playing
44:43
But all of the other potential candidates poll much better than he does personally
44:48
especially Andy Burnham, whose popularity in the North West is close to unprecedented for a politician in actual power as opposed to opposition Andy Burnham you know with all respect has had a much easier role as mayor of Manchester than any PM has had or is likely to have in the near future
45:08
Oh, I mean, indubitably, but it's a path to power that's well-trodden, isn't it
45:11
Albeit by Boris Johnson. We can see how popularity as a mayor can be translated into something else
45:17
I mean, you're absolutely right about the threats that Labour faces from both extremes
45:22
or from both sides, if you prefer, and the absence of what you might call a mission
45:28
a sense of what they are and what they stand for. You can't rely indefinitely on just hoovering up legacy votes
45:35
from people who've never really voted for anyone else and can't imagine ever wanting to do so
45:39
The Greens, big on the Middle East, I don't know how much of their popularity
45:44
how much of their success comes from a much, much stronger line in opposition to what Israel has done in Gaza and the West Bank
45:52
and latterly in Iran. I think it may be that in power
45:56
you wouldn't be able to pursue those rhetorical flourishes quite as enthusiastically as you can in opposition
46:02
And then on the right, the weaponisation of immigration continues, even as immigration plummets
46:06
because it's never really been about facts and figures, and it's always been about feelings
46:11
But they have signally failed to address either of those issues to the satisfaction of wavering voters
46:17
And that isn't necessarily on Starmer. That could be, as Lewis Goodall said in that little clip earlier for his
46:23
weekend show. That could be an existential issue as opposed to a personal
46:27
issue. But I do still think that a change might be as good as a rest and that
46:33
the perception of Starmer having blown it, whether it's fair or not and whether you personally
46:39
or I personally like it or not if it is sufficiently widespread a conclusion then the
46:45
necessity for change becomes clear and close to irresistible. It's coming up
46:51
to 10.59. Thank you. Neil, plenty more people wanted to talk about this
46:56
but I want to add another question to the mix as well. What's gone on here
47:03
How have we seen a political figure move from a relatively low reputation
47:12
you know, perceived as a failure, really, or a nearly man? Andy Burnham, when he announced that he was leaving Parliament
47:18
it had a slight whiff of sour grapes to it because he tried and failed to secure the big job
47:23
on at least, I think, on two separate occasions. Did he run against Ed Miliband and Jeremy Corbyn
47:29
I think he did, you know. And I didn't necessarily cover himself in glory
47:33
when he was in government, by his own account. What exactly? I don't confine an entire phone in to call us from Manchester
47:40
but if you've been paying closer attention to events in Cottonopolis, then I'd love to know what you think has happened to Andy Boon
47:50
James O'Brien on LBC. Three minutes after 11 is the time. And so to Manchester, where Andy Burnham has been
47:59
we are told, and I speak in a consciously London-centric way here
48:05
that he has been an excellent mayor. One of the frustrations of interviewing the Mayor of London every month
48:12
Sadiq Khan, has been the realisation of how little heft he personally carries
48:19
with regard to things that we would all like to see changed. And that has improved slightly
48:25
since the party of which he is a member became the government
48:30
But when you have a Tory government and a Labour mayor, certainly with reference to London
48:36
there's not as much... The mayor can't do as much as you might have thought he could do when you voted for him or her
48:41
I mean, it is one of the lessons of this job for me in recent years
48:46
I don't know whether or not Mayor of Manchester is measurably different
48:51
or a constitutionally different role, whether or not he does have more powers
48:56
and has therefore done more for Mancunians, but I do know that his popularity
49:01
and therefore his potential leadership credentials are very high. So this hour we will talk exclusively about Andy Burnham
49:14
as opposed to about the situation in which we find ourselves. If you can, give me a bit of guidance
49:21
on this extraordinary rehabilitation because he wasn't an unpopular politician when he was in Westminster
49:29
but he was a failure in many ways. And I don't mean that in a personal or an ad hominem way
49:35
He had two tilts at the leadership. I think, wasn't there, there was an example of
49:40
something, I can't remember, but an example of a potential sort of political cowardice
49:47
that I've got that will pop up to the front of my mind, I'll dredge it up from the back of my mind
49:52
I've got Evette Cooper involved in it. I can't quite remember what that was
49:56
But he tried twice to be leader and failed, and then went off in what looked like a bit of a huff
50:02
to try to become mayor of Manchester, which was, you know, for a politician of his calibre and credentials
50:08
it was a bit of an open goal. So if you are in that neck of the woods
50:11
if you are in Manchester or it's on Verones, could you tell this southern ignoramus
50:17
quite why and how Andy Burnham has rehabilitated his political reputation so completely
50:25
Or so comprehensively? Because it's never complete, is it? And I'm also interested in whether or not you think it runs deep
50:31
or whether it might actually be a shallow popularity that would be easily diluted, reduced or destroyed
50:39
So the number you need, as always, is 0345 6060 973. You'd be doing as a solid
50:46
I really mean that because the massive majority of the country, and I'm talking about the United Kingdom now
50:50
because that is of what he would become Prime Minister if his leadership challenge was successful
50:56
They're not going to have been plugged in to local events. Manchester Evening News is not the force that it was
51:03
but it's still a paper well worth consulting. and there's an excellent sort of online publication
51:08
called the Manchester Mill that I consult as well. But even there, I'm not getting a daily update
51:15
or a daily sense of what people are thinking and what people are feeling
51:19
in the way that I do as a Londoner about London. And you know, on this show, I try desperately hard
51:24
not to become London-centric, not to sort of confine our conversations to what's going on in the M25
51:29
but that's an inevitability to it, as there is with all London-based media
51:33
So the only way I can break that bubble, break that fourth wall, is with you
51:38
As someone in Manchester, or from Manchester, following things in Manchester more closely than people outside Manchester do
51:46
just answering that very simple question. Why do we think that Andy Burnham has seen his personal reputation flourish so wildly
51:58
at a time of very, very widespread dissatisfaction with politicians in general
52:03
and unpopularity for Labour politicians in particular. Actually, that's not true, is it
52:08
Because Sadiq Khan has secured three terms. London is in better shape in many ways than it has ever been
52:13
despite all the Shakira law. And his personal ratings remain very high
52:19
to the absolute annoyance of foreign racists and domestic racists, of course
52:23
They all hate Sadiq Khan for being brown but they really really hate him for being a good mayor and running a city that in the words of Paddington Bear or in the words of Mrs Brown explaining the appeal of London to
52:36
Paddington Bear, a city where everyone is different so anyone can fit in. Manchester, I mean, similarly
52:43
multicultural and similarly diverse, but Andy Burnham, more popular after a few terms as mayor
52:51
of Manchester than he ever was as a term, after a few terms as a minister or a cabinet minister
52:56
or a shadow minister. What is it that has happened? How has Andy Burnham managed to
53:03
rehabilitate his reputation? 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need. I always worry a little
53:12
bit about personalising commentary about politicians because I don't generally like it
53:18
but we're living in an era, we've probably always lived in an era where elections general elections are beauty contests defined by the appeal or otherwise of the main players of the
53:27
main characters and of the five potential leadership contenders that i have sat down with
53:32
um what would i rank them according to what would i rank them according to is it charisma
53:40
is it is it um a charm because if it was if it was simple pleasure in their company
53:47
I'd put Angela Rayner first and I think Andy Burnham would come in
53:52
this is what I mean about not being comfortable with the sort of
53:56
personalised nature of it Ed Miliband I'd say was more clubbable than
54:01
I quite liked Andy Burnham as well it was an interesting story
54:05
some depth to his political journey his story but what I couldn't tell you
54:10
because I haven't been there and I don't live there what I couldn't tell you
54:14
is how Andy Burnham has rehabilitated his political reputation to the point where two failed bids to become Labour leader
54:24
have given way to an essential perception that he is the leader in waiting
54:33
He is by far the favourite in the event of a challenge going ahead
54:38
He's the only one on paper at the moment who would seem set to beat Keir Starmer
54:43
He is spoken of by almost everybody as the most obvious contender and the most obvious potential successor to Keir Starmer
54:52
And yet he hasn't been in Parliament or the national political field for the best part of a decade
55:00
So I just need to know from Manchester, if you like, what it is that you think explains the rehabilitation, the rebranding almost of Andy Burnham
55:13
I read something very clever this week. I mentioned it to you yesterday, but you may not have noticed or you may not have been listening
55:21
It's a really silly position. I found myself slipping into it without noticing to think that because someone's tried to do something before
55:28
they should be excluded from ever doing it again. It's why I think Ed Miliband is probably underpriced at the moment
55:34
in any coming leadership battle. And it's also why it obviously doesn't have to matter
55:39
that Andy Burnham has tried and failed twice to become leader of the Labour Party
55:43
He could easily have gone away and got better. Do you see what I mean
55:47
He could have gone away. He could have learned lessons. He could have become a better politician
55:52
He could have become a better person. It's absurd to suggest that because you had one bite
55:58
of the cherry ten years ago, you should be forbidden from biting again, or
56:02
that you are somehow fatally flawed or undermined by the fact that you failed previously
56:06
The best parallels, I think, are probably Stanley Baldwin, a beautifully boy, would you believe
56:11
and Winston Churchill. And according to that measure, then Stanley Baldwin would never have been Prime Minister twice
56:20
let alone three times, and Winston Churchill would probably have been drummed out
56:24
of politics altogether after the Gallipoli campaign, or certainly after flipping parties, which he did. So the idea that politicians have to get onto rails and then stay
56:33
on them for their entire careers is probably unhelpful. But I still don't know what it is
56:39
that's happened in Manchester that has seen Andy Burnham's fortunes transformed in the eyes of
56:44
voters so completely. So let's find out. Catherine is in. Wait for it. Manchester. What do you reckon
56:48
Catherine? Hi. Yeah, I think Andy Burnham is somebody who, one, I think his communication
56:56
style is, you know, he talks like an actual human and like a normal person. And it's very easy in
57:05
terms of listening to him and the way he speaks. And I think the most important thing that he's
57:11
done is focused on things that matter to people every day. So, you know, two pound bus fares
57:18
wherever you go in, you know, free bus passes for the 16 to 19 year olds to get to college and stuff
57:24
you know these are things that mums don't have to fork out and you know and therefore you know
57:29
it matters it makes a difference to people's everyday lives and i think that's what he's
57:33
done in manchester you know he puts his money where his mouth is 20 or i think it's 10 or 20
57:39
percent of his salary whatever each month goes to the bed every night you know for homeless people
57:44
i didn't know that don't gloss over that i didn't know that we're 100 100 on that are you
57:48
uh yeah yeah well we'll check i mean but again isn't that interesting that i don't know that
57:54
And it might be a professional failing on my part, but I don't, I mean, I'm not exactly asleep for three hours every morning
58:01
No, that's a scheme. I think it started in COVID or even before that
58:06
I don't know. But it was to eradicate homelessness in Manchester because it was a really bad problem
58:12
You know, Deansgate was littered with people basically sleeping rough. Yeah. And it was when he basically set up a bed every night scheme type thing
58:23
hostels and what have you. He had a very good Covid, didn't he
58:28
I remember the footage of him on the steps of City Hall. Yeah
58:32
Just looking very workman-like, actually, and railing against Boris Johnson's policies and descriptions
58:41
It wasn't City Hall, it was the library, wasn't it? It was the central library. Yeah, central library
58:45
And that, I think, really galvanised support, and that's where the whole
58:50
King of the North schtick comes from, isn't it? Well, he was furious. Yes, he was genuinely
58:55
He was palpably furious. It was a weird thing that was going on. And we were kind of seen to be disproportionately disadvantaged
59:02
and it was kind of like, hang on. And he went into battle for us, and I think that was also, you know
59:07
something that people kind of went, yeah, fair enough. And I think, you know, he's got a track record on Hillsborough
59:14
in terms of the victims of Hillsborough, and I know he did an awful lot of work with that
59:19
I think he was, you know, actually, I mean, I know people are saying, oh, he was, you know, not successful with the leadership
59:26
But I think, you know, he was a pretty effective health secretary, as I remember, in terms of his proposals for social care and health
59:35
And I know he wanted to kind of do stuff, quite radical stuff, to change the whole health and social care
59:42
How do you feel about the fact that you voted him to be mayor and he's going to clear off then
59:48
Yeah, I mean, that's obviously, you know, on a selfish perspective, well, we really miss him, I think
59:53
You know, he's done loads and the transport system and all of the rest of it
59:57
You know, all the things that he's done. and introduced are great things and you know and i hope um they continue but i think um on a
1:00:07
non-selfish basis if he can replicate that across the national on the national stage then hooray for
1:00:14
britain i say you know if he can take that kind of agenda and roll it out i mean the investment
1:00:21
in manchester i think there was something like if we were a little country on our own
1:00:24
I think we're 3% growth I read the other day versus a kind of 0.6% growth on this
1:00:31
The Financial Times asked 10 fund managers this week which leading contender to replace Starmer
1:00:36
would be worst for the UK government bond market and six picked Burnham
1:00:41
So I suppose that might work either for him or against him on the economic front
1:00:47
It isn't necessarily fund managers that a Labour government should... But I mean you're talking about the bond market
1:00:52
which is what did for Liz Truss. I know nothing about that market. No, nor did Liz Truss
1:00:57
Nor did Liz Truss. It didn't stop her becoming Prime Minister. Catherine, thank you. Are you a party member
1:01:01
Can I ask? No, no, I'm a hack, you know. Just an FE teacher
1:01:06
And again, he's been really invested in education for, you know... It's nice to hear somebody talking with such enthusiasm
1:01:13
about a politician, actually. Talking with warmth and enthusiasm about a politician who is improving people's lives
1:01:19
as opposed to the sort of really ugly enthusiasm you sometimes hear people talking about politicians
1:01:25
who are just promising to hurt others, whether they're disabled or foreign or asylum seekers
1:01:31
It's nice to hear someone talking warmly about a politician who seems to be dedicated to improving people's lives
1:01:38
in pursuit of political success rather than hurting people in pursuit of political success
1:01:44
Thank you, Catherine. More on this after this. James O'Brien on LBC
1:01:49
It's all about bottom, isn't it? It's all about bottom. So you can be a popular mayor, and Boris Johnson was a very popular mayor
1:01:57
That's not 2020 hindsight, he just was. And he translated that popularity at a local level into popularity at a national level
1:02:05
It sort of presaged his passage to Downing Street. And he had no bottom
1:02:12
You know, it is essentially a completely different proposition, not least fiscally
1:02:18
The fiscal trade-offs required in government, in national government, are absolutely immense compared to any comparable decisions that you're called upon to make as a mayor of Manchester or London
1:02:32
So, you know, you might worry that you would have... I'm always very wary of any comparisons with Boris Johnson because he was a uniquely awful politician
1:02:42
Uniquely awful, actually. Although he did take a million quid from the bloke that gave Nigel Farage five million quid
1:02:49
So maybe there are some similarities and comparisons. But that comparison is probably fair
1:02:58
because you've done well in one job that is technically a political leadership role
1:03:05
The perception is that you would do well in another job that is technically a political leadership role
1:03:10
but they are such different roles that we probably shouldn't be putting too much store in the performance in one
1:03:18
when assessing the likely performance in another. That makes sense, right? I probably could have said it in a slightly more concise fashion
1:03:24
Oh, marvellous. Amanda is in Makerfield. Is it? Can I ask you a question, Amanda
1:03:29
Hello, James. Hello. Hello. Excuse my voice. I'm just getting over a virus, a very awful one
1:03:34
I don't know what you sound like the rest of the time. You sound perfectly good to me. That is true, yeah
1:03:38
You sound great to me. Do you get, because whenever the Kidder Minister is in the news
1:03:41
which isn't very often, I get a weird little thrill. Are you enjoying weird little thrills today
1:03:47
every time Makerfield gets mentioned? Well, strangely, yesterday, I couldn't believe it
1:03:51
I think LBC it was, actually. I saw it, the notification that an MP
1:03:58
found an MP in Greater Manchester, and then I saw it was Josh Simmons. I thought, oh, my goodness, that's mine
1:04:03
It's Makerfield. Yes, and Josh Simmons, in all fairness, James, has been amazing
1:04:09
Oh, that's good. He really has. He's been, you know, complete, ran with the job
1:04:15
Oh, amazing. He really has. Well, he might run for mayor. I don't know if he's got a high enough profile
1:04:21
but it's not impossible. Well, that is true. That is very true
1:04:25
Maybe we could put it out there. So why has Burnham enjoyed this rehabilitation
1:04:31
do you think? He's just so well-liked in Greater Manchester. That's not an answer to my question
1:04:37
and that's the premise of the question. Why is he so well-liked? Why is he
1:04:43
Well, he's a northern guy, northern roots, obviously. Size Bernard Manning. Yeah, but he has done a lot for Manchester, James
1:04:52
He really has. People love him there. Really? You'd use that word
1:04:58
The B network. Is that the trams or the buses? The buses, yeah
1:05:04
He's really done great work, basically, in Manchester. When I lived in Lee, I voted for him
1:05:14
He was MP for Lee. He was very good. And then I voted for him to become mayor in this area
1:05:22
But then, obviously, it's a seat now for contention now. But I'm in two minds about it
1:05:29
I know you want to talk more about Andy, but... I heard whatever you want, Andy. I really wish I'd rang in earlier
1:05:33
you can talk about the other thing as well because you could now be
1:05:37
getting a new MP who isn't necessarily going to be Andy Burnham remember
1:05:45
he could lose and you're going to be getting a new mayor as well despite the fact that the one you voted for
1:05:50
hasn't finished the term that's why as you would say I've got a foot in both camps at the moment
1:05:56
I would rather Keir Starmer I do think that he is doing good things behind the scenes
1:06:06
but of course, right-wing press aren't, you know, getting out there with it
1:06:10
The comms have been rubbish for Labour. Yes. He needed to have been getting up every week
1:06:15
This is what we're putting. This is what we are doing. This is our direction
1:06:21
And getting the message out there. People don't know. If you ask the average Joe on the street
1:06:28
what's Keir Starmer put into place, to be like, but they can reel off all the negatives
1:06:34
Yeah, they can. And this caller that Tom had earlier in the week that Mark in Brighton referred to
1:06:38
reeled off all the positives in a very fluent and impressive fashion. And it does rather pose the question of why
1:06:44
no one in the sort of government has managed to tell that story more successfully
1:06:50
Is there a danger? Because this is where I think the parallel with Boris Johnson is fair
1:06:55
He's a bit too keen to be liked. Yes, yes. I suppose, I suppose he is
1:07:03
But as you say, unfortunately, personality is what people seem to want instead of stability
1:07:10
It's crazy, really. Yeah, well, I mean, we shall see. And he's got personality
1:07:15
Weather vane, one of the accusations levelled at him when he was in Westminster
1:07:20
that he would change according to the weather, like a weather vane does
1:07:24
But that isn necessarily something that would hold true ten years later And of course it not an entirely bad thing Thank you Amanda I hope you feel fully chipper sooner rather than later That the first call from Makerfield
1:07:35
Can we get another call from Makerfield, do you think? I've got one phone line for you, if you're quick. 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need
1:07:44
I've just seen a quote from a speech that Burnham gave in January
1:07:48
which is a bit close to home, this. So he was setting out his theory of who broke Britain
1:07:54
and you know what he came up with he said it was the four horsemen of britain's apocalypse
1:08:01
but no he didn't then name the individuals that i have uh termed the four horsemen of the
1:08:08
crap-op-a-lips in this country he went instead for deregulation privatization austerity and brexit
1:08:13
i like that i i i like that not just because it sounds like something i might have said but because
1:08:19
it speaks to the problems that are obvious and constantly repeatedly denied by the um
1:08:25
i don't even know what words to use anymore to describe the members of my profession
1:08:30
who constantly shill for deregulation privatization austerity and brexit do you know that don't blame
1:08:36
the bankers was an actual catchphrase around the time that gordon brown was prime minister
1:08:41
for a global financial crisis caused by bankers you'd actually have people on telly or the radio
1:08:47
or writing newspapers, oh, don't blame the bankers. Alexis Sale nailed it when he said that everybody knows austerity
1:08:53
was a policy necessitated by the fact that the global financial crisis of 2008
1:08:58
was caused by there being too many libraries in Wolverhampton. Don't blame the bankers
1:09:03
I wonder, you find someone that said with a straight face, don't blame the bankers, and then just draw a line
1:09:09
from don't blame the bankers to Brexit's going to be brilliant and vote Boris Johnson for Prime Minister
1:09:13
I would be amazed if that hat trick is not absolutely universal
1:09:17
That Venn diagram is a circle. So here's a circle of people that use the phrase
1:09:21
don't blame the bankers for the global financial crisis caused by bankers
1:09:26
Here's a circle of people who told you to vote for Brexit and here's a circle of people who told you
1:09:30
Boris Johnson would be a great Prime Minister. You tell me that's a Venn diagram
1:09:33
That's just one big circle, isn't it? With exactly the same people in all three camps
1:09:38
And still, of course, dominating discourse in this country because they went on to bring you Liz Truss
1:09:44
and cheerleading for Donald Trump. So, Andy Burnham. there you go, Manchesterism
1:09:50
which is one of the words he has adopted. Would it translate? I don't know
1:09:55
Stephen's in Lancaster. Stephen, what would you like to say? Hiya, James. I love the show
1:10:00
I'm calling you from Cottonopolis rather than the apocalypse. So, yeah. So, I think, for me, there are similarities
1:10:08
between Burnham and Boris. And I think they're more from the top down
1:10:15
So with Boris and I was living in London in 2012, the Boris bikes, the Olympics, that infrastructure, that logistics about getting around the city, that's what I feel that Burnham's doing in Manchester now
1:10:28
And even with the insignia, so just with the B network, B network means family, it means people, it means community, it means everything at ground level
1:10:37
I think what goes under-reported or not really talked about too much
1:10:41
is the ability to speak to, well, just putting the infrastructure in or the investment in
1:10:46
So, you know, he stood on the halfway line at the field and spoke to the people
1:10:51
Yeah, he did. So there's Hillsborough and there's also the infected blood scandal
1:10:56
That was very much an Andy Burnham issue and a big success for the families involved
1:11:03
but also a political success, a campaigning success for Andy Burnham. And that speaks of concern for people, doesn't it
1:11:09
in a way that I don't think Boris Johnson ever demonstrated. And he also spoke to Sir Jim Ratcliffe as well
1:11:17
and I'm not a United fan, but he's looking at bringing in major investment
1:11:20
from the richest man in Britain into Manchester. So just on the top level of infrastructure
1:11:27
talking to the people, bringing investment in, they're all national things. So there's certainly similarities between that and Boris
1:11:34
with him bringing in the Olympics and the logistics for that and the way you get around the city
1:11:40
I think there is kind of parallels there. But he's very well liked in Manchester at a personal level
1:11:48
And that's because he's done visible things. I mean, it's not actually a big mystery, me sitting here in London
1:11:52
saying, what's happened? How's he managed to rebrand? What's the rehabilitation all about
1:11:56
He's done things that are visible and popular. On a personal or rhetorical level
1:12:02
like standing on the steps of Central Library and giving Boris Johnson a kicking
1:12:06
when the entire country wanted to, or very, very visible networks of public transport
1:12:12
and bringing it back into public ownership as well for the first time since Thatcher deregulated it in the 1980s
1:12:20
Yeah, I think there's... And your question before around, you know, can he run again
1:12:25
You mentioned yesterday that, you know, there's many politicians that have run twice
1:12:29
and it's just about timing and sometimes you're better at another time
1:12:33
I think this could be his time because right now, status quo
1:12:40
Starmer gave us the status quo since the Conservatives. With Andy, he brings this radicalism to actually fix things
1:12:52
I think people need that, need to see the... There's a quote in the Financial Times today
1:12:57
from what they describe as one left-winged Northern MP. I think the view is not that he's the messiah
1:13:03
but he's a damn sight better than what we've got. And that seems to be taking hold, doesn't it
1:13:08
Despite Wes Streeting letting it be known today that his hat will be making its way into the leadership ring
1:13:14
when battle finally commences. So no mystery or confusion from anyone so far
1:13:20
as to why Andy Burnham's popularity has grown in such an extraordinary fashion
1:13:26
during this period of British politics, but also no real addressing of the simple fact
1:13:32
that it's a very, very different job, to which you could easily respond by saying, so what
1:13:37
It's a very different job to be Prime Minister than it is to be Leader of the Opposition. It's a very, very different job to be Prime Minister
1:13:43
than it is to be Director of Public Prosecutions. It's a very different job being Prime Minister
1:13:47
than it is to be a grifter on Cameo saying disgusting things for coins
1:13:52
They're very different jobs. Is one a preparation or a qualification for the other or not
1:13:56
I don't know, but I guess that running a city is a lot closer to running a country
1:14:01
than some of the other jobs you could have done previously. Dominic Ellis is here now with your headlines
1:14:06
James O'Brien on LBC. 11.34 is the time you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:14:14
I recommend this piece in the Financial Times about Andy Burnham. If, like me, you are conscious of needing a bit of help
1:14:21
getting your head around the transformation in his fortunes, It's written by a brilliant journalist called Jennifer Williams, who is based in Manchester and who is reliably first class
1:14:32
I mean, Financial Times is a really exceptional newspaper. But even there, some journalists are more exceptional than others
1:14:40
And she's done a really good job of both listing and yzing this extraordinary uptick in not just reputation, but performance as well
1:14:51
looking at the responses just in no particular order to the government Covid restrictions When Burnham was seen as speaking very passionately for his people if you like
1:15:05
for the people of Manchester, then you've got the transport infrastructure, the taking back into public ownership of the bus system for the first time
1:15:17
I think, since Thatcher's deregulation. He doesn't have a big team. I didn't know that
1:15:23
The mayor only has one full-time paid political advisor upon whom he relies heavily
1:15:28
Obviously, the mayor of London's core operation is much bigger than that, because London is much bigger than Manchester
1:15:35
But it means that he's managed to maintain, as Jennifer Williams puts it
1:15:39
an outsider status away from Starmer's unpopular government. And that is why so many MPs want him
1:15:47
I was reading Tom Watson's substack this morning about the necessity of making everything as free and as fair as possible
1:15:55
Slightly worrying to also read this morning that the National Executive may not be quite as plain sailing for Andy Burnham as was previously thought
1:16:05
but we'd have to wait and see on that. 11.36 is the time, and Wes Streeting responding to reports
1:16:11
that the National Executive may not be quite as plain sailing for Andy Burnham
1:16:16
as was thought at 10 o'clock this morning by describing him as one of our best players
1:16:21
and the necessity of having him on the team. This is the point Tom Watson made overnight
1:16:25
which is essentially that for the benefit of the public, not just the party
1:16:30
the leadership battle has to be seen to be fair. You can't exclude, I mean
1:16:38
Rainer's already gone on the record saying they shouldn't have excluded Burnham last time
1:16:41
They shouldn't have banned him from running in Gorton and Denton. To do that again, I think, would be catastrophic for Keir Starmer
1:16:48
albeit that it might buy him a little bit more time. But it would be catastrophic for a whole heap of reasons
1:16:54
not least the fact that it makes him look scared and slightly dishonest
1:16:59
So, back to Burnham, the Burnham bounce. Do we think it will extend from Manchester to Westminster
1:17:08
Kathleen's in Wigan. Kathleen, what would you like to say? Hi, James. Hello
1:17:13
Lovely speech, yeah. Likewise. I am not in the same as all the others what's been on
1:17:20
Good. I am not an Andy Burnham fan. Oh. I am a Labour supporter
1:17:26
I'm 81 years old. I've never voted for anybody on the Labour
1:17:30
Yeah. In councils and everything. But I've never voted for Andy Burnham to be my mayor
1:17:37
He's the only person I've not voted for. I held my nose and voted for Jeremy Corbyn
1:17:42
Carvin, although I didn't like him. But I cannot vote for Andy Burnham. I hate Andy Burnham
1:17:50
He's a big backstabber. He's a big backstabber. He will other meet. He walked away. He backstabbed
1:17:59
the Labour movement when he walked away from Westminster and left us with Jeremy Carvin
1:18:06
on all them idiots. And now, Keir Starmer's brought us all back
1:18:12
to being in government and this man thinks he can walk into
1:18:18
Wigan's seat. I'll tell you something now. He will not get in
1:18:22
in this. Are you in Makerfield? Because I live in Wigan. I'm in Makerfield
1:18:26
I won't vote for him. And on Monday night, Joss Simmons came out
1:18:31
and publicly slaughtered Keir Starmer. So the disloyalty for you, this is a story of epic disloyalty
1:18:41
I hate disloyalty. I'm 81 years old. I wish my family was in the room there to speak to you, they'd tell you
1:18:49
I don't even like going to Nex during my shopping because of the taurus, believe it or not
1:18:54
I do believe it. I'm very loyal to what I believe in. And I think, yes, he has that, but he threw his dummy out and run away
1:19:05
and I don't like that and I've never voted for him. No, you mentioned that
1:19:11
And everybody who I speak to till it comes round will all listen to me
1:19:16
and I will tell them and I'm sure they won't vote for him either
1:19:20
But then you might end up making things worse then. Well, I want them to
1:19:28
reform again anyway. I'm sat here now and I'm looking at my window
1:19:33
and there's people across from me who's got a big flag in the window
1:19:41
English flag as they call it, whatever they're supposed to be. And I think they've never done a day's work in their life
1:19:50
They've got four cars, most of our own lots of things. And I'm looking through the window
1:19:56
and thinking, they're what we've found. Yes. And that's what'll happen. it will go to reform
1:20:04
And everyone will end up with egg on his face and you'll be able to say, I told you so
1:20:10
Well, I mean, you understand why I hope you're wrong. Just because that is not an ending, I would like to see
1:20:15
I know, is it? And I have to say this as well. Go on. I love Keith Thurman
1:20:20
Fair enough. I think he's a gentleman and I think he's brought us back from the age of Johnson
1:20:27
And I love Keith Thurman. And I'm afraid I won't vote Labour again
1:20:31
Well, you will if he's still in charge. If he's in charge, if Andy Burnham gets in
1:20:37
definitely will not vote Labour. And I've never voted anybody else. Well, flipping out. I hope they're listening, Kathleen
1:20:43
I really do, because you make powerful points. I mean, disloyalty is one word you can apply to the current situation
1:20:52
and I'm certainly not going to argue with you. There is the counter-argument that it is actions necessitated
1:20:58
by Keir Starmer's perceived failure, and they feel, where Streeting feels, Andy Burnham feels
1:21:05
that if the party is to prevail, if the party is to win another election, then they need to be led by someone else
1:21:10
But that doesn't diffuse the disloyalty accusation, which I don't think anybody will be able to make as powerfully
1:21:15
or indeed as persuasively as you. Thank you, Kathleen. Will you ring me again
1:21:21
I will, yes, definitely. I keep ringing and I'm turning it off
1:21:26
because I'm not very good at speaking. Well, I disagree with that. I lose my rag too much
1:21:31
There's nothing wrong with losing your rag, Kathleen. I lose mine occasionally, but it's lovely to hear your voice on the radio
1:21:36
and I'd like to hear it again if that's all right. Thank you. No, thank you. And you have a lovely weekend
1:21:40
Thank you very much. Thank you. Bye. Bye-bye, Kathleen. It's 11.42, and just down the road in Stockport
1:21:47
Kim is waiting. Kim, what would you like to say? Hi, James. Lovely to speak to you
1:21:51
Likewise. I listen as often as I can. Thank you. I thought that lady was lovely, previous caller
1:21:59
but I have to disagree with her. I think with Andy Burnham
1:22:05
I don't think he left Westminster because he was having a hissy fit
1:22:10
Judging by what he's done as Mayor of Manchester, I think he left because he was frustrated
1:22:15
He wanted to be in power. Politicians need to be in power to get things done
1:22:19
And that seemed to be missing sometimes from the whole Corbyn project, didn't it
1:22:23
that simple recognition of the importance of being in power Yeah I actually joined the Labour Party to try and get rid of Carby because I couldn be doing with him at all but I have spoken to Andy Burnham met with him
1:22:39
a few times and I belong to a little community group we're trying to get a rail passenger
1:22:46
service but we don't have one at the moment and we've been campaigning for a while and Andy
1:22:54
Burnham has taken our cars on. I think without that we'd have had the door firmly
1:23:00
shut in our face a long time ago. But the thing about Andy Burnham is that
1:23:06
he makes you think you matter. Yeah. And that's gold dust. That's gold dust politically
1:23:12
Absolute gold dust. Absolutely. I mean, the first meeting with him, there was two friends groups
1:23:18
and there were all the powers that be from TFGM and all the rest of it
1:23:21
He came in the room and he came and sat with us. And the first thing you think is, oh, well, that's great
1:23:29
And that's the first thing he did. So it gives you the impression that he's with you before anything even started
1:23:36
He does do a lot. He does make you think as so
1:23:42
He makes time for you. Now, you know, once you get down in the Westminster bubble
1:23:47
I don't know how hamstrung he would be, but he always makes, he makes you feel as though you matter
1:23:53
This is really interesting. This is really interesting. And you've actually second-guessed the question I was about to ask you
1:23:59
about whether it will translate. But obviously we don't know, do we? No
1:24:02
But the question I'm asking is why has he managed to butter so many parsnips up in Manchester
1:24:08
And it is on him. It is because of his particular set of skills
1:24:13
Yeah. I mean, you know how, I mean, you've got to realise how busy he is
1:24:19
But he seems to make time for you, which is great. I don't know that there's a higher praise you can pay for a politician than that
1:24:26
that he cares and he seems to make time for you. Although I don't know that Kathleen, just down the road in Makerfield
1:24:32
is going to have necessarily... She definitely doesn't know. That is necessarily going to have been persuaded to your point of view
1:24:39
I've hugely enjoyed listening to both of them. Thank you, Kim. It is quarter to twelve
1:24:43
We'll head down south a bit next, because Shivani Sharma is in Clacton-on-Sea
1:24:48
responding to Nigel Farage's claims yesterday that nobody there cares about all the money that he's making on the side
1:24:54
whether it's secret donations from economic migrants in Thailand or whether it's money that he gets paid for promoting the IRA
1:25:01
and sundry other things on the Cameo platform. So she just went with a microphone to ask people
1:25:08
You'll find out what they said after this. James O'Brien on LBC
1:25:12
148 is the time. A switch of focus now onto one of the things that would be getting rather more attention than it currently is
1:25:20
And it's still getting some if the Labour Party hadn't just embarked upon a round of almost inevitable inter-Nissan warfare
1:25:29
I mentioned to you when this £5 million secret gift from an economic migrant in Thailand to Nigel Farage was first reported
1:25:37
that his story would change, that he would just claim whatever needed to be claimed to make the question go away
1:25:44
and it failed, of course, because he started refusing to answer questions. He came perilously close to shouting Bernard Manning at journalists
1:25:50
which is what he does when he is particularly desperate to avoid scrutiny
1:25:55
But you will remember that his original claim was that he needed the money
1:26:00
despite the fact that he wasn't a politician when he received it and had already announced that he was leaving frontline politics when he received it
1:26:08
He said that he needed it because of his personal security. It wasn't political in any sense at all, but it was for one purpose
1:26:16
I've been the most attacked, physically, politician of modern times. And yet, despite repeated requests to the Home Office, the police, for protection and help
1:26:29
I've been denied at every twist and turn. This money is the only way I can look after myself and protect myself for the rest of my life
1:26:37
I think that's worth fact-checking, actually. the Home Office and the police
1:26:41
I have personal experience of how they assess and provide protection and security to politicians
1:26:49
and how they assess threat levels as well. I also dread to think
1:26:53
what the families of Joe Cox and David Amess make of his claim that he's the most attacked
1:26:57
politician of modern times they of course both murdered while he's had two milkshakes and a takeaway cup
1:27:03
thrown at him the last of which from the street when he was on an open top bus
1:27:09
but Farage gonna Farage and he's changed his tune already it's no longer for security that he received
1:27:15
the money, claiming that it had absolutely nothing to do with politics a reverse ferret so complete that he's now claiming
1:27:21
it was given to him as a reward for his politics telling Harry Cole of the Sun newspaper
1:27:27
and my goodness me, they'd have gone down a list of journalists to decide who was
1:27:31
the least likely to ask him any questions that he found difficult or embarrassing
1:27:34
and there would be quite a few journalists on that list but none perhaps
1:27:38
quite as prominent as this clown, but he gave him an opportunity to offer up an entirely different account
1:27:45
of why he took the £5 million from the economic migrant based in Thailand
1:27:50
It's very unusual for someone to give up 27 years of their life to campaign for something
1:27:54
and this was given to me on an unconditional basis, completely unconditional basis
1:28:00
but frankly, it was given as a reward for campaigning for Brexit for 27 years
1:28:06
Oh, nothing to do with security then. Shivani Sharma is in Clacton, unlike Nigel Farage
1:28:13
who still hasn't done any constituency surgeries there, as far as I'm aware, because of the security concerns that he had
1:28:18
despite having received five million quid for security that wasn't for security, but was instead a reward
1:28:23
for doing the politics that he did, having failed in the city and deciding that politics might offer him a better opportunity
1:28:29
to achieve some sort of renown. What a wonderful country this is. Shivani's on the beach. I hope you've wrapped up warm
1:28:35
Why are you in Clacton, Shivani? Well, James, I'm in Clacton. Good morning, sunny seaside Clacton today
1:28:41
Not just because of that £5 million story that you've just outlined
1:28:45
and the changing narrative there about it being for security reasons and then for it being a reward for Nigel Farage's campaigning during Brexit
1:28:54
But £2 million is the other figure this morning because that is what we've learned Nigel Farage has made
1:29:00
since he became an MP less than two years ago in a lot of his outside work that he's done
1:29:06
when he's not been representing constituents here in Clacton. Now, he says this is a non-story
1:29:13
He says there's nothing to see here. And this is what he said to Harry Cole from the Sun
1:29:19
when he was asked about it yesterday. So what? You don't think that's a..
1:29:24
When you see everyone lathering themselves up into getting annoyed about it
1:29:28
you just think, well, it didn't do Donald Trump any harm being loaded, right
1:29:32
You see what people in Clacton say? Good lecture, mate. Yeah. They don't care
1:29:37
No one cares. They care if you're a crook. Yeah. Which I'm not, never have been
1:29:44
But the fact that I made a few quid doing things, just doesn't worry people at all
1:29:50
Now, James, as you say, I'm in Clacton. I've been speaking to people up and down the beach here
1:29:54
all morning to find out whether, in fact, they do care. And look, it's fair to say some of them don't care
1:29:59
care they're Nigel Farage staunch supporters and it seems like nothing he does will change that
1:30:06
effectively but what I have to say is a lot of the people I spoke to don't just care but they're
1:30:12
angry at this two million pounds because for them they feel that this represents that he's
1:30:18
his priorities are in the wrong order that he is focusing on his own personal wealth and not the
1:30:25
people here in clacton that he's supposed to be representing nigel fry i wouldn't trust him as far
1:30:31
as i could throw and i can't from very far if he's earning two million pounds away why isn't he in
1:30:37
parliament doing his proper job what he's paid for not to go and earn two million pounds somewhere
1:30:42
else you don't think he's doing his job properly how can he do two jobs at once and if you do two
1:30:48
million pounds you're not doing it on the side are you not doing a half part-time job five to six
1:30:55
in mcdonald's not for two million pounds so when he says no one in clacton cares about this issue
1:31:00
i mean forgive me but i think you two both live in clacton you you have a different side of the
1:31:04
story yeah i think more people care about it than he's willing to admit if you're here to look after
1:31:12
the community here your job is to make sure that you're you get a wage for that that doesn't mean
1:31:18
that you make two or five million pound on the side because that could rather than a genuine
1:31:24
need to support people in this area he's got a genuine need to receive high numbers of funds
1:31:33
from other people so there you go james i'd say at least half of the people i spoke to
1:31:38
said that they're they're furious about this there was one woman actually i spoke to who said
1:31:43
there's a where's wally poster of nigel farage down the road or at least there had been at one
1:31:47
point because they haven't seen him in a really long time and they felt that this story just adds
1:31:53
insult to injury for them because it shows according to them that his priorities are not
1:31:59
in the right place now obviously as you know the parliament standards watchdog is now investigating
1:32:05
the five million uh pound sum um but as i say the claim that no one cares about this two million
1:32:11
pound income uh is not an accurate one i should probably tell you what reform uk has said
1:32:17
about this at Nigel Farage. And about the £5 million in particular
1:32:21
they've said he's always been clear this was a personal, unconditional gift
1:32:25
They say they look forward to this being put to bed once and for all. And, of course, the reason why he's had to reverse ferret
1:32:32
on the claim that it was for his security is because journalists keep finding out about houses
1:32:36
that he's bought. He's got this incredible number of them. Do we know how many houses he owns at the moment, Shivani
1:32:41
Well, we do know that £1.4 million is the amount that he spent, James
1:32:47
In cash? Well, in cash, yes, exactly, a short while after he accepted that £5 million donation
1:32:56
And I saw another report yesterday of a house he owns that he'd applied to knock down and build again
1:33:01
with an extra basement added. Thank you very much indeed, Shivani Sharma. Live from Clacton-on-Sea
1:33:07
gathering responses to Nigel Farage's claim that the people there are too stupid to care about him
1:33:13
feathering his own nest while he should be representing their interests in Parliament
1:33:16
and I think we can all agree that interview that we heard shortly before. An absolute masterclass in rigorous questioning
1:33:22
and holding the feet of prominent politicians to the fire. Imagine being the person that you go to
1:33:28
if you're too frightened to go on Laura Koonsberg's show. That is an accolade
1:33:33
That is a badge everyone should wear with enormous pride. 11.57 is the time
1:33:39
Squeezing a final call, I think, on Andy Burnham and then I decide what we're going to talk about in the next hour
1:33:45
Awet is in Bolton. Anyway, what would you like to say? Right
1:33:49
What I'd like to say is you judge any politician, you know
1:33:55
through having reflections of what he has achieved, okay? That tangible Andy Burnham, since walking out of Westminster
1:34:04
he did exactly that, okay? Bringing social change that affects every individual
1:34:11
within the Greater Manchester... Fair enough, yeah. Okay. I don't need to go back on it because of short of time
1:34:19
Thank you. Now, we have to acknowledge Andy Burnham's greatest asset is the people of Manchester, social cohesion
1:34:28
There's been a lot of attempted disruptions. They've succeeded. We've also started under a good leadership, institutional leadership, including Greater Manchester Constabulary
1:34:37
to deal with, together, of anything that would disrupt social cohesion, especially, for example, drugs
1:34:45
you know, and so on, okay? He has done that. What do you think about the ease or otherwise
1:34:51
of how easily these things would translate into national leadership? It's a different proposition
1:34:58
but things like social cohesion, they are universals, aren't they? Absolutely. Having social cohesion, you know
1:35:06
a good leadership that promotes good social cohesion brings the stability of the government
1:35:10
to do what it promised to do. You know, you need the people behind you
1:35:15
And to say nay to the people, the kind of, you know, whether it is foreign organizations and everything else
1:35:20
no, no, we're not going to have it. Without having a social cohesion, you cannot progress any forward
1:35:26
The idea of a politician who's actually seeking to unite rather than divide
1:35:31
is another reason why he might offer up an antidote to the rather more divisive approaches
1:35:36
of some of the other characters currently vying for prominence, including the one that we were just talking to Shivani about down in Clatsun
1:35:44
And AWAC, you mentioned that we were short of time, so thank you for bringing that in on schedule
1:35:49
No, thank you. We'll talk again. It's coming up to 12 noon. I mean, it feels to me as if the political milestone
1:35:55
that we find ourselves in is still the only story in town
1:35:59
I have got a couple of other contenders. I shall consult Eleanor and Keith during the news
1:36:03
but in the meantime, why not let me know what you would rather do? Do you want more on the current Labour infighting
1:36:10
and indeed the increasingly less curious appeal of Andy Burnham. I don't know about you, but I'm getting a much, much clearer picture
1:36:19
of why he is the only politician in the country at the moment
1:36:22
whose polling is a net positive. His personal popularity polling is in plus
1:36:29
Everybody else is arguing about who's the least unpopular, whereas Andy Burnham, I think it's only plus four
1:36:34
but at least it's not minus. James O'Brien on LBC. It is four minutes after 12
1:36:43
You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I'm going to move away from politics now. I'm talking about something completely different
1:36:48
It's one of my all-time favourite subjects. And, you know, it's not entirely unrelated to the conversation that went before
1:36:56
Quite a few of you picked up on my question about accents
1:37:00
my point about accents. And I wonder whether Kathleen up in Wigan
1:37:05
and Kim in Stockport and others actually made the point as well
1:37:08
It was a very northern hour the last hour wasn't it necessarily because we were
1:37:14
Confining callers almost to people with personal experience of Andy Burnham's mayoralty. So, um, you know
1:37:20
It doesn't mean you're going to sound Mancunian or or or Northern because you could have moved there from the south but but that there something authentic about a northern accent whether you like that or not i just think that it true
1:37:35
um the the the populist with the northern accent is not really a politician that we've had yet in
1:37:42
this country i don't want to tempt fate but if kirsten went to comprehensive school it became a
1:37:49
grammar school while he was there but not not um in in a way that required his parents to pay fees
1:37:54
So his entire life is a narrative of low expectations being defied
1:38:01
I think that's part of the reason, I said I was moving away from politics, I promise you I am
1:38:05
but I think that's part of the reason why he is curiously unruffled
1:38:09
I mean, I'm sure that he looks a lot more ruffled away from the cameras than he does in front of them
1:38:13
But he's been dealing with scenarios like this for his entire life, and he's been dealing with a perception that he's not up to it
1:38:20
or a perception that he's doomed. and then he has defied those perceptions and those expectations for his entire life
1:38:28
not just his professional life, he rose to the very top of his profession as a barrister
1:38:33
but his schooling as well. And at every turn, people were not expecting much from him
1:38:40
It defined in some part by his own father's disappointment in his own lot
1:38:44
his father feeling he could have done more and didn't. And so Starmer, I think, lived his life determined to do as much as he possibly could
1:38:51
and that has always involved defying expectations. Now, if you go to a school like mine, that doesn't really happen
1:39:01
If you go to private school, or in my case, public school
1:39:05
and Americans probably need a quick explanation of what the difference is. The public schools in this country are the best private schools
1:39:11
It's a very weird linguistic glitch that I don't fully understand, but I can easily explain to you
1:39:20
So all private schools are fee-paying, but the very best private schools are fee-paying and somehow called public schools
1:39:28
So the public schools are the sort of household name schools. Private schools, you won't know the names of many of them, but they will all involve fee-paying
1:39:40
And there's a story in the news today about chief executives who went to private schools being perceived by investors as a safer bet
1:39:48
This is an extraordinary study that has been undertaken by the University of Surrey
1:39:54
because it also found that state-educated counterparts perform and behave just as well
1:40:04
So a company run by a privately educated boss will experience lower stock market volatility
1:40:10
even though there are no meaningful differences in their performance, decision-making or crisis management
1:40:17
So simply put, investors see a boss who went to private school and automatically feel safer or more secure than they do when they see a boss who went to state school
1:40:30
And the brilliant bit of this research is the evidence or the proof that it's not based on anything measurable or tangible
1:40:40
It's a vibe. It's a vibe. It's what I would call a very expensive vibe
1:40:47
depending upon which school that you went to, but it's entirely a vibe
1:40:52
One of the co-authors of the research, Dr Christos Mavrovitsis, says people like to think markets are purely rational
1:40:58
but our findings show that perception still plays a powerful role. A chief executive's background can shape how investors feel about a company
1:41:07
even when it has no real impact on how that company is run. Now, we haven't done this for a while
1:41:13
It is historically one of my all-time favourite subjects, and I'm going to take a little moment to tell you why
1:41:19
It is because of two things from my past, two things from my life, that are almost at odds with each other
1:41:27
One is the fact that I went to public school and fully, fully recognised the golden ticket that it provides beneficiaries with that is vibe-based
1:41:40
And the other is that I was adopted as a baby by my parents. And therefore, I've always had, I've told you this before, but I think I'll tell you again
1:41:47
because it's part of my interest in the story and why I want to hear your answers to the question I'm about to ask
1:41:53
It means, and I only realised this quite late in life, it means that I've always subconsciously
1:41:59
and I don't know if this is true of all adopted people, but it's definitely true of me
1:42:03
I'm always subconsciously aware of the me that didn't get adopted. so the the the version of me that was born to a teenage single mother in rural island
1:42:15
and the opportunities that would have been available to me not adopted compared to the
1:42:22
opportunities that were available to me adopted because i would still be me right i i would still
1:42:28
be me my dna would be exactly the same uh my hair and my feet would be exactly that i would still be
1:42:37
me. But I wouldn't be me. I would be someone else's child. I wouldn't be my mum and dad's
1:42:43
son. I would be my biological mother's son. I would be differently educated. I would not
1:42:51
have gone to public school or private school or fee-paying school. I might be speaking
1:42:55
Irish as opposed to being a monoglot and only able to speak English. I could have developed
1:43:02
entirely different political opinions based upon my formative experiences and my life. So there's two me's, two very real
1:43:11
me's. There's me that went to this school and had this life and had that family, but it's the education element of it
1:43:19
I'm most interested in today. And there is the other me who I will never know. Would the other me
1:43:27
have been as confident as I can sometimes come across as? Because I'm not. When I was
1:43:35
on newspapers, I would give the impression of being very confident. I had what I think has been
1:43:42
described as the public school swagger, but inside I was crippled by anxiety and nerves
1:43:47
to the point of being physically sick quite often when I was sent out on stories. So nervous was I
1:43:52
about having to march into a room full of famous people and try to get them to say something silly
1:43:59
that my tummy would cramp up, it would tie itself in knots. And yet on the outside, I remember going to a party
1:44:06
with the literary editor of the paper I was on at the time, and we shared a taxi there
1:44:12
and Jay McInerney and Martin Amis were on the other side of the room talking
1:44:17
I think it was a Jay McInerney book launch, one of my all-time favourite authors. And I said to the literary editor of the paper
1:44:23
who was quite bookish, as you'd hope, I said, oh, just excuse me for a moment, I better go and get a line off them
1:44:28
meaning a line for the newspaper that I was working for. So I marched across the room
1:44:34
interrupted Martin Amis and Jay McInerney talking, asked them, I think I was quite charming
1:44:43
I hope I was quite charming, because they didn't seem to be particularly offended. It was his book launch, and they throw these parties
1:44:49
in order to get some newspaper coverage. Had a bit of a giggle with Martin Amis and Jay McInerney and then excused myself and went back to the other side of the room to the chap that I arrived with and he was looking at me goggle He was sort of going how did you do that That extraordinary
1:45:06
And I was really bad at this. My friend Henry was absolutely brilliant, but I was really bad at it
1:45:10
because it didn't come naturally. But from the outside, it looked as if I was very much to the man of Bourne
1:45:17
Inside, I'm in absolute pieces. But to the outside, there's a veneer or whatever you want to call it a patina of plausibility i mean it's extraordinary
1:45:28
right um full disclosure this week is with russell kane who is absolutely fascinating
1:45:34
on this subject he literally woke up one morning in um a university hall of residence
1:45:45
and saw people sitting on lawns reading books. He was in his 20s
1:45:52
He was staying with a girlfriend. And he saw people reading books
1:45:57
and thought, I want that world. I want to be part of that world
1:46:02
And he transformed his entire existence as a consequence. It's an incredible story
1:46:07
It's a brilliant episode of Full Disclosure. But the idea of duality
1:46:14
the idea of there being two different people, one who had the privilege, one who had the advantages
1:46:19
and whatever it is it conveys, and one who didn't, is fascinating to me, because here you have two CEOs
1:46:25
of equal and opposite ability, right? Equal and opposite ability. One of them gets an easier ride off investors than the other one does
1:46:38
despite the fact that they are of equal ability. why does that one get an easier ride off the other one than the other one off investors
1:46:47
answer because he went to private school but that's not an answer is it that's a sort of
1:46:51
explanation but it's not an answer why and how do you even know what is it that you convey what is
1:46:59
it that you see so i think what i want to do this hour oh i just clarify on the education question
1:47:04
Keir Starmer's educational past. I got it a bit backwards. He was at a grammar school, which became a private school
1:47:13
but his parents were never required to pay any fees because it happened while he was there
1:47:20
I want you to tell me what you see. So you be the investor. you
1:47:30
you tell me as someone who didn't go to one of these schools right
1:47:36
you hear this story and you are much less surprised than I am
1:47:41
you go well of course it's like an inbuilt prejudice it's like innate stobbery
1:47:47
it's an absolutely intrinsic to the British class system but I can't quite see it
1:47:53
as clearly as you can because I only see me when I look in the mirror and I can do all this stuff about being very anxious and nervous
1:48:00
when I appeared very arrogant and confident, but I don't know if that's because of my school
1:48:06
The thing that surprises me perhaps the most when I look back
1:48:10
is, and I don't mean anything disparaging about this, but I think it is a big shock
1:48:16
to people who went to what I would call normal schools. If someone from your year at school became a doctor
1:48:24
where would you put them? in the graph of the spectrum of cleverness
1:48:31
the spectrum of basic intelligence, someone from your school became a doctor
1:48:37
I suspect if you went to a normal school, they're going to be in the top 5% of people in terms of intelligence
1:48:44
Would you agree with that, in terms of the average spectrum of intelligence? No
1:48:49
My school, perfectly possible for someone who was in the C stream. So A, B, C, D, E, five streams
1:48:54
perfectly possible for someone who was in the sea stream to now be a doctor, or even a consultant
1:48:59
Because what we learned, and I don't ever remember being taught it, it never sat us down in a classroom and said
1:49:07
you can be this, or you can be that, or you are entitled, or you are born to rule
1:49:12
Christopher Burr told me an extraordinary story. I think he went to rugby school
1:49:17
Christopher Burr, if you've never met him, is an absolutely lovely man. One of the loveliest people, famous people
1:49:22
I've had the pleasure of meeting in all the years. that I've been meeting famous people. And when he was at school
1:49:28
they were told by their teachers that they were soldiers of empire
1:49:33
And this, of course, translates into being born to rule. Still a legacy of empire
1:49:39
when these schools would churn out men who could go to the other side of the world
1:49:44
and start bossing the natives around without ever stopping to think about what on earth gave them the right to do so
1:49:49
It's a sort of God-given right almost. and you carry it and you don't know that you have it
1:49:55
You don't know that it's emanating from you because you can't see yourself as others see you
1:50:02
Oh, touch of Rabbie Burns there, isn't there? Won't some gift the gifty gears to see ourselves as others see us
1:50:10
And you can't see yourself as others see us because that's who you are. So I had that little moment at that party
1:50:16
and I kind of saw myself as others see us and he just saw this very confident person
1:50:22
marching up to two of the most famous authors on the planet as if they were old friends
1:50:26
interrupting their conversation, cracking a couple of jokes and then coming back across the room
1:50:30
But if inside, I'm in pee, I'm churning up completely. So what do you see
1:50:38
So using this story as our way into the conversation, right? It is about investors seeing two chief executives
1:50:46
possessed of identical skill sets This is the point. Identical skill sets
1:50:53
But one of them went to private school and one of them didn't. Investors will treat the one that went to private school much, much more positively
1:51:04
They will be much, much more likely to invest. They will be much more comfortable with the one that went to private school than the other one
1:51:15
And I want to know what the investors see. because I can't see it
1:51:22
What do they see? 0345 6060 973. I don't know if this is relevant
1:51:29
And hit the numbers now. I need help on this. What do you see as someone who didn't go to private school
1:51:35
when the vibe, the unfairness that a privately educated person portrays that is intrinsic
1:51:45
and explains unfairness and explains advantage and explains why investors would see the privately educated person
1:51:54
as a safer bet than the identically talented, normally educated person. I just love to hear what it is that you think you see
1:52:03
I'd love you to describe it to me. 90 minutes after 12 is a time
1:52:07
There's something else that happened once. When I was doing a bit of work with a charity with underprivileged children
1:52:15
that's a dreadful phrase and i was introduced to some kids who'd got involved in in criminality and
1:52:22
they were on the cusp of gangs and and you know they really needed help they really needed a leg up and i remember shaking hands with them I a big one for shaking hands And they all had very limp handshakes for want of a better word
1:52:37
And I remember thinking, well, that's something I can help them with. The importance of a firm handshake
1:52:43
And I mentioned this in passing to one of the people that worked with them all the time
1:52:47
And they just sort of said, why? And I said, well, it's like a badge
1:52:53
It's like a sort of... I was... And I couldn't answer their question
1:52:57
Why on earth would you think that these kids would benefit from having a firmer handshake? And the answer, actually, is because of people with my prejudices
1:53:05
People who would notice a limp handshake and think less of a person than they would if they had a firm handshake
1:53:11
Why? It's stupid, right? But it's also true. So that's an example of me..
1:53:18
I mean, obviously, a firm handshake isn't a mark of having gone to private school
1:53:21
but it's a mark of having been schooled in something. The word that runs through all of this is entitlement, isn't it
1:53:29
But I don't know what entitlement looks like from the outside. And I want you to tell me on 03456060973
1:53:40
Because Andy Burnham has something we discovered in the last hour that is authentic and not whatever it is that privately educated people have that other people don't
1:53:55
What is it? What do you see? Hit the numbers now, you will get through. James O'Brien on LBC
1:54:01
14.23 is the time. Privately educated bosses are seen wrongly by investors as a safer bet
1:54:07
So what do investors see that they don't see when they look at a state-educated CEO
1:54:12
possessed of an identical skill set? Sylvia is in Bristol to kick things off
1:54:17
Sylvia, what would you like to say? I wanted to say that, yeah, I agree with what you're saying
1:54:21
I think that a lot of it is confidence of these kids who are basically brought up to believe
1:54:26
that they are better than everybody else in society. And it's that kind of, like, the ego that carries you through
1:54:34
as well as the gravitas of having, like, an expensive private school on your TV
1:54:41
I'm a teacher. I teach in a comprehensive school. and when I did my teacher training
1:54:46
we did one day where we went into a private school and ironically to go and see how well
1:54:50
they were doing with their English and traditional language students but obviously they have so many
1:54:56
privileges, like the class sizes are a lot smaller, there's like 24 kids
1:55:00
in a class and I was really really shocked to observe a lesson
1:55:04
where they were teaching world literature which has been stripped from the curriculum since Michael
1:55:10
Gove and they were still teaching kind of world literature. And when I went to speak to the teacher
1:55:16
at the end, she said, oh no, we don't do the new Michael Gove curriculum, we're still teaching
1:55:20
the old curriculum, which means they can produce coursework, right? Coursework is much easier to get a high grade
1:55:26
in at GCSE. So these kids, not only are they benefiting from the privilege
1:55:30
of going to a private school, but on top of that, they are also taking easier
1:55:34
exams, which I just think is... But that doesn't explain what I'm..
1:55:38
I mean, everything you say is true, and most of it I knew, but it doesn't explain, what did you see in the children
1:55:43
because they wouldn't know half of that stuff, would they? That child in front of you would not
1:55:47
Well, I don't know Would they absorb it by a form of
1:55:52
almost osmosis? Because they get better grades So I must be clever
1:55:56
Well, yeah, I'm sure they are clever and this is not me, like, you know, diminishing
1:56:01
their ability. Oh, diminish away There was some right bozos at my school
1:56:05
Well, yeah, it's just the fact that you wouldn't believe, I mean, you would believe
1:56:09
because you went to private school, but the lunches that they're eating, the grades that they're getting
1:56:14
the facilities that they're existing in, are all designed to make them feel
1:56:19
you know, basically that they are, like, living a life of luxury
1:56:24
And if you're, you know... But they don't know any different. I mean, and again
1:56:27
I'm not going to mount a rearguard defence. The food at my school when I was there was inedible
1:56:31
I mean, genuinely stone cold inedible. It was absolutely disgusting. But, you know, what happened over COVID
1:56:37
Like, I'm sure you saw the same things as me. like the difference between preschool meal kids
1:56:41
and the stuff that they were getting sent home which was sometimes like half a carrot and a rotten bag of potatoes
1:56:46
and the difference between these private schools they were being given you know like
1:56:50
just unbelievable three course lunches but the thing that confuses me and I don't know whether you're helping or not at the moment
1:56:59
the thing that confuses me is that those children those people they don't know anything else
1:57:05
so where are they getting the idea that they're better than other people. So if I'm in a room where I'm sitting at one table
1:57:14
having a three-course meal, and you're sitting at another table in the same room
1:57:18
having a bag of mangy old potatoes, then obviously I am... Well, either I'm going to buy in fully to the unfairness of it
1:57:27
or I'm going to become an activist and share my food with you
1:57:32
Can I tell you, I grew up in Cheltenham, right? Cheltenham is a place, like, saturated with private schools
1:57:38
It's so, yes. Very good private schools and grammar schools also. I went to a comprehensive school
1:57:44
Now, I made friends with people who went to, like, Ladies College, for example, or Pate's Grammar School
1:57:49
I had one friend who actually used to tell her parents that I went to Ladies College because otherwise
1:57:53
I wouldn't have been allowed to go around to their house. I had other experiences where we would..
1:57:58
But what did they display that you didn't? Do you know what
1:58:04
They wouldn't have known. because I'm well-spoken. I'm from a fairly poor family
1:58:10
but they wouldn't have known because I'm... And then you're not helping me at all
1:58:15
Well, I suppose... So what is the thing? Because you, then, by your own account
1:58:21
you've got this thing. You can fake it? Not everybody does. Well, what is it
1:58:29
I think it's ego, and I think it's confidence, And I think you can be lucky and you can grow up with that
1:58:36
and you can get it from your family. Or you can be unlucky and you can grow up in a home
1:58:40
where there's no books on the shelf. You haven't got enough to eat. Whereas if you take the family out of the equation
1:58:44
everybody's lucky in a school like that. Exactly. Because they don't know
1:58:51
And what do you see? You just see fake confidence. Because I was not, and I can use myself as an example
1:58:58
I was not comfortable in my own skin until relatively late in life
1:59:02
But if you'd met me, you would have thought not only that I was comfortable in my own skin, but I was unfeasibly pleased with myself
1:59:08
Well, I think a lot of teenagers are really uncomfortable in their own skin, to be fair. Yes, I do. Yeah, that's true
1:59:12
I think most of them are. But I think if you look at, like, there's such inequality in the classroom now
1:59:18
In a comprehensive school, most classes now are full of 32 kids that are packed to maximum capacity
1:59:23
And, like, it's not like that in private school. It's not the real world
1:59:28
At least if you're a rich kid going to a comprehensive school, you are mixing with, like, I can't think of a better phrase
1:59:35
the great unwashed. You're mixing with every type of person. If you go to a private school, that's not the case
1:59:40
You think that the world smells of fresh paint. And I think it's that kind of like..
1:59:45
Yeah, and it is osmosis then. So it is, you are just going to absorb things subconsciously
1:59:50
and unconsciously that frame who you are and how you view the world
1:59:54
and, crucially, how you view your place in the world. But if I wanted to do it from the other side of the..
1:59:59
lens. I'm going to need more than just confidence, but I think you make a brilliant point about the
2:00:05
fact that whatever it is can be achieved by people who don't go to these schools, but it's going to
2:00:11
involve an awful lot of luck. Whereas for the people who do go to these schools, it's inculcated
2:00:16
it's handed over on day one, and it's not got anything to do with luck at all. Thank you
2:00:21
It's coming up to half past twelve. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I've got to
2:00:26
catch up with the politics with natasha clark and i um also have a another tale of a of an outgoing
2:00:32
reform councillor although this one is for reasons that you probably wouldn't be able to predict it
2:00:36
has for example got nothing to do with nazi flags and swastikas as was the case with nathaniel mendy
2:00:42
who was elected to represent the woodhouse ward on sheffield city council at last week's local
2:00:47
election has now been suspended or indeed the councillor who has apologized after posting on
2:00:53
social media that the police needed to take action about non-white persons who were taking over
2:00:58
a town park. It's considerably less predictable a reason for another departing reform councillor than
2:01:06
the racism and the apparent Nazism. Half past twelve is the time
2:01:11
Amelia Cox has your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC. It's 12.33, you're listening
2:01:16
to James O'Brien on LBC where the question is pretty straightforward. What do you see
2:01:22
when you see a privately educated person if you are not privately educated yourself
2:01:27
And through that answer, we get closer to understanding why privately educated bosses are seen wrongly by investors
2:01:34
as a safer bet than rival CEOs who didn't go to private school
2:01:40
but who are possessed of identical skill sets, who don't perform any or behave any differently
2:01:46
from their privately educated counterparts. Why would investors see something different? what do they see? Ian's in Hook. Ian, what would you like to say
2:01:55
So, I've spoken to you before about education for a different reason but I'm a state school educated child
2:02:02
I didn't really growing up realise anything about private school for a difference. And it wasn't until university
2:02:11
when somebody said to me, what school did you go to? I thought, what are you talking about
2:02:14
That's a killer question. That's an absolute killer question. Because you just
2:02:18
normal people just don't ask that question. My mate Andy, who we lost
2:02:22
during lockdown, I talk about him quite a lot, and he ended up
2:02:26
knocking about with very, very successful people. He was a hugely successful man himself, but
2:02:30
he always found it absolutely hilarious when people asked that question, because he went to a comprehensive
2:02:34
school in Rochdale called Older Hill, and he used to answer. And, you know, he used to wait for
2:02:40
the reaction, and occasionally someone would realise that it's a really, really
2:02:45
presumptuous and quite a snobbish question to ask. but there it is and then when i when i started out in advertising you could walk into a room
2:02:54
and if you met the client for the first time you would know whether they went to a private school
2:02:58
or not just by their bearing by their innate confidence and then i turned to my children
2:03:05
who are that private school yeah and the reason they're at private school is i wanted them to
2:03:11
have that experience so they didn't have to fight like i did for a seat at the table they just
2:03:16
expect it. Ah, you make it sound like my late father. Anyway
2:03:22
that's... No, you're sorry. You just ambushed me a bit there. I wasn't
2:03:26
expecting that. That's almost word for word what my late father would have said
2:03:30
about it. I have to ask you, has it worked? Yes. When my son
2:03:36
left his prep school, which is obviously, you know, for anyone listening
2:03:40
two years later than you would at a primary school, he did a presentation on
2:03:45
JFK assassination. And he held the room of 60 people, half of which
2:03:53
he didn't know. And it never crossed his mind that he shouldn't be doing that
2:03:58
There was no lack of confidence. He walked out onto the stage
2:04:03
delivered the appearance. My wife sat next to me, literally said, I've got to do a presentation
2:04:08
with half of them, I think I might take it. Yeah. And there'd be some kids
2:04:13
in that school who would have been daunted by doing it and there'd be some kids at perfectly ordinary schools
2:04:18
who would have been brilliant at it as well, but it's about the generality of the experience
2:04:22
It's about the odds and the fact that it feels normal to lads like yours
2:04:28
and indeed to me when I was of the same age to do something that is abnormal or extraordinary
2:04:35
What is ordinary in our schools is extraordinary to people outside our schools
2:04:40
and there it is. I mean, I don't know if we're going to get any bigger or better than confidence or variations thereof
2:04:47
But it's worth trying. Ian, thank you so much. 12.36 is the time
2:04:51
Natasha Clarke's had a busy week. Is it over yet? I don't think so, James
2:04:55
But it might be calming down over this weekend, we hope. But yes, we have had the news today where Streeting has come out throwing his full weight behind a return for Andy Burlam to Parliament
2:05:05
And the next few days, I think, James, are a matter of a little bit of process just within the Labour Party about what happens next
2:05:10
So we're going to have a crunch NEC meeting at some point in the next few days where they will have to decide the timetable for this by-election that's going to happen
2:05:19
Josh Simons last night saying that he would stand aside for Andy Burnham
2:05:23
We expect that will be where the NEC will decide the timetable when to have this by-election
2:05:29
And also, of course, he can stand in it because we know that Andy Burnham, as the Manchester mayor, has to get the express permission of this group of Labour executives in order to stand
2:05:37
He didn't get it last time. I'm told that that will probably be happening in the next couple of days
2:05:43
that the NEC officers will be meeting to decide whether Andy Burnham should be allowed
2:05:47
Everybody is saying that it's probably likely that he will be. Number 10 are essentially briefing that they will not block him, as Keir Starmer did last time
2:05:56
So it's basically anyone's guess. They do have, obviously, their own power to do so
2:06:01
But it does sound like they are going to give the green light to Andy Burnham to be able to stand
2:06:06
and to basically make him Labour's candidate in that area. It's not the safest seat in the country, is it
2:06:11
It's not. It's really interesting. And according to the local election results that we had last week in that constituency reform won more than 50 of that vote Labour around 26 of that vote So this is going to be a really tricky election I think for Labour
2:06:27
It will be, you know, a big swing. But then when we look at what happened in the 2024 election when Josh Simons won that seat
2:06:33
he won it with a 6,000 majority reform came second. So by all means, it's not a walk in the park for reform
2:06:40
I spoke to some sources in the reform camp yesterday. They're not feeling, you know, that absolutely we're definitely gonna win it like Richard
2:06:46
Tice was speaking on the radio earlier today. Did Richard Tice get asked whether or not he knew about the £5 million before the newspapers
2:06:55
reported it? I'm not sure if he's been asked that specific question
2:06:59
He was asked about why it was that Nigel Farage has now changed his tune on it, but I'm not
2:07:03
sure if he, I don't know if he knew about it or not. So streeting, everyone is saying you can't block Burnham
2:07:10
Basically, yeah. That would be bad. I mean, it would just look bad, and it would be bad
2:07:15
So we're looking at least three hats in a ring now. We're looking at streeting Burnham-Starmer
2:07:21
That's right. And then, obviously, potentially more. It can't be more than five, because they all need to get 20%. Exactly
2:07:27
So there will be, obviously, a limit. But you could potentially see, if the vote is very, very split
2:07:31
at least Angela Rayner trying to run. But equally, I don't think she probably will do
2:07:37
Do you not? If, indeed, she has done, potentially, this deal. well I think there probably will be one soft left candidate
2:07:42
so I imagine it will be Angela or Andy or Miliband and if Andy Burnham is making it clear that he can stand
2:07:48
there is a bad, you know, a sort of worst case scenario for Labour though that if Andy Burnham doesn't win this seat, then what happens
2:07:54
And also they lose the mayoralty, well they won't lose the mayoralty because he'll do both jobs for a while I presume
2:07:58
It's interesting, I'm not sure He doesn't have to resign as mayor to run for parliament Exactly, he hasn't done so yet
2:08:03
but he will indeed need to do that at some point so it depends on the timetable for this by-election
2:08:07
and what that looks like But yes, absolutely, there could be a situation where he doesn't win this seat
2:08:13
And then what happens? Do you then descend into a very messy leadership contest
2:08:17
potentially between Angela Rayner or Red Miliband and Wes Streeting? I think that's the worst of all possible worlds for Labour
2:08:23
if you're looking at what happens and what's happened this week and where we go next. So if they have a leadership challenge, but the favourite isn't in it
2:08:30
Exactly. Oh, Lord. And that's Andy Burnham, let's be honest. No, I know it is. That's what I'm saying
2:08:34
Okay. Well, have a nice weekend. I'll try. I mean, it's not over yet
2:08:38
There's nothing that might. Is there anything likely to happen today? This is the man who said at 20 to 1 yesterday
2:08:43
well, it looks like that moment's passed and Wes Streeting isn't going to make his move. And then, of course, just as Mystery Hour came to an end
2:08:48
because I think he was timing his announcement according to Mystery Hour
2:08:52
just as Mystery Hour came to an end, he moved. And I came on air at 10 o'clock this morning thinking that Wes Streeting wasn't going to run himself
2:08:58
He just knocked the door open for others. And then as soon as I sat down, I saw that Wes Streeting has announced
2:09:02
that he is going to run himself. So what could happen before Monday? What could happen before Monday
2:09:07
Look, I think probably West Streeting is going to probably not do any major interviews or interventions as far as I understand it
2:09:14
However, he is doing a speech tomorrow. And I imagine he will be setting out what he said in his resignation letter
2:09:21
He's speaking to the Progress think tank tomorrow afternoon, we understand. And he'll be setting out why he's resigned and why he does believe that Andy Burnham, I'm told, needs to be able to be allowed to stand
2:09:31
So we will be hearing from West Streeting for the first time in a while this weekend
2:09:35
but is he going to sort of trigger that challenge? I think that's probably unlikely
2:09:39
and again, will we hear from Andy Byrne this weekend? He'd like to think if he wants to make the case
2:09:43
then he will be getting out and about or at least his allies and his MP friends will be getting out and about
2:09:47
to make the case for why he should be allowed to stand and why he is the best person for this candidate
2:09:51
So I think that's what we're going to see a weekend of jostling, James. Hurrah and also huzzah
2:09:56
Natasha Clarke, great stuff. Thanks for all your help this week and I hope you managed to get some rest this weekend
2:10:01
which isn't quite upon us yet. 12.41 is the time And the question of what it is that people see when they see someone who has been privately educated is one of enduring fascination to me
2:10:13
Brought into sharp relief this morning by research showing that chief executives who went to private school are perceived by investors as a safer bet than counterparts who are state educated and don't perform or behave any differently
2:10:26
So something's going on here. What is it? Anita is in Harefield. Anita, what would you like to say
2:10:30
well I'll give you a potted history first of my sort of background
2:10:35
I was brought up by grandparents on a miners role and my gran had been
2:10:42
a cook in a private house so she taught me table manners and all the rest of it
2:10:45
and my granda used to read to me every night and this is a hard truth for parents
2:10:50
really here that I'm going to say now is you used to read anything
2:10:54
from Shakespeare to you know Walter Scott and all the rest and then I got into
2:10:58
reading four books a day, didn't have a TV He practiced piano all the time, which came up literally off the back of a lorry with no working pedal
2:11:06
And then I got into a conservatoire to study piano, and I was the only working class kid there
2:11:13
What was that like? How did you become conscious of class? I didn't
2:11:17
But the interesting thing was my head teacher and the staff in the mining town
2:11:22
comp, all wore their mortarboards and gowns. I was the one on the piano playing Gaudi Amos
2:11:27
So the head teacher had amazing foresight and strategy for that school
2:11:33
And many of us went on to be really amazing things in our profession
2:11:38
One girl that sat next to me in geography, she makes hats for the royal family now
2:11:42
There's all sorts of different people doing different things. And none of us were privately educated
2:11:47
The thing was the head teacher had amazing control on the school discipline
2:11:51
Very interesting. We were in sets and all the rest of it. So anyway, I went on to study piano and, you know, I remember one teacher saying, oh, she's from a very rich family
2:12:01
Look at the shoes she's got on. And I looked at her shoes and I thought, I wouldn't actually know if she was from a rich family because I knew so little about shoes
2:12:10
And the point is that if we educate our children as parents and read to them and everything else, we have an equivalent opportunity as anybody else
2:12:20
So then after I was an added opera singing as well. I actually disagree with you
2:12:24
Do you? Yeah, of course, because the person whose parents are doing all the things that you
2:12:28
describe and is sending them to an expensive school has got an advantage over the person
2:12:33
whose parents are doing all the things that you describe but is going to a normal school I would agree in part I mean it just Because otherwise why would you hand over or a year
2:12:44
if you weren't getting something in return? Yes, and I think during the..
2:12:48
I became a teacher. I worked my way up to being a secondary head teacher
2:12:52
I haven't quite finished my ported history. Then I became a Labour councillor
2:12:56
I stood for Parliament, blah, blah, blah. So, anyway, if I go back to schools for a minute
2:13:02
when David Miliband came in and realised we'd build skills for the future, the 90s up to 2010 was a golden era for state education
2:13:10
So much so that, you know, our line managers used to say to us, don't go inside education because they're all..
2:13:15
I'm going to be late for the break. What do you see when you see a privately educated person
2:13:20
that you don't see when you see someone who didn't go to private school? And I fully appreciate that you can pull it off, as it were
2:13:26
but what do you see? Parents that could be bothered... No, that's not it, though
2:13:31
It's not the best for the children. Well, it is. No, it really isn't, because I went to private school
2:13:36
It was full of kids whose parents couldn't even know their names. They just signed checks every year to make sure someone else did the business of raising them
2:13:43
So my parents sent me there because they wanted the very, very best for me
2:13:47
But for the people from families whose grandparents, grandfather and great-grandfather had all been to the same school
2:13:53
it categorically wasn't the case that they were motivated by a desire for their children to have the best opportunities in life
2:14:00
It was pure, pure entitlement. Incredibly dysfunctional as well in many cases
2:14:06
but happily not mine. Thank you, Anita. 12.45 is the time. James O'Brien on LBC
2:14:12
It's not education in and of itself, but, of course, that is a part of it
2:14:19
I mentioned Russell Kane earlier. Let's have a little listen to Russell Kane
2:14:24
on Full Disclosure this week, talking about the thing I was mentioning to you earlier
2:14:27
about recognising that you haven't got something, and in Russell's case, because he's an extraordinary human being
2:14:34
determining that you were going to jolly well get it for yourself. Why am I doing a job moaning like a 40-year-old man
2:14:42
literally feeling suicidal, hating my life, living for the weekend so I can get off my tits
2:14:47
When all they've done, they've been encouraged and read a few books. I went to the cigarette room for my break
2:14:52
even though I didn't smoke, but I went there every day, and I opened my diary
2:14:57
which was just a functional diary, go here, collect, dry, clean, and I wrote, today's the day I change my life
2:15:02
I'm going to do my A-levels. I'm going to go to uni. I went home that night
2:15:06
Of course, we couldn't afford internet. It was just about existed, but we didn't have it. And I looked up
2:15:12
I think with the National Extensions College where you can do A-levels out of a box for people that are 18 or over
2:15:17
I was exactly 18. And I thought, I'm going to do sociology A-level. That's clearly where my anger is
2:15:21
Of course, that was the worst thing I could have done once I started learning about feminism racism and class I realized I've been
2:15:29
short-changed by the people that run the game I was I was I was just a tool to go into the system
2:15:35
and I was like that got the fastest ever a grade three months from enrollment to a grade I
2:15:41
went to the house of commons to collect an award from Betty Boothroyd my mom still got the picture
2:15:45
and then of course I couldn't once I did that it was like you know the note when people describe
2:15:50
a moment of a nervous breakdown when they collapse in the street whatever the opposite of that is It was like someone reached around and went, excuse me, mate, you do realise that's not plugged in
2:15:58
What's not plugged in? Bradley Cooper, limitless, pupils dilated. Every book went in. Jane Austen, Zola, Flaubert, Dickens, Trollope
2:16:07
I'm 19, first class honours degree, straight out into an advertising agency
2:16:13
That's what I mean about the brain, you see, and what a school like mine would do with a brain like that
2:16:19
compared to what a school like his did. and him being so extraordinary that he then turned it around and grabbed it all for himself
2:16:25
It's a wonderful interview, that. I've already had a couple of comments about it because it drops early on Friday
2:16:29
but I don't bring it to your attention until around about now. That's Russell Cain on full disclosure
2:16:35
12.51 is the time. Back to the programme proper. We have already heard today of the newly elected Reform UK councillor
2:16:44
who's been suspended after his social media account appeared to contain a Nazi flag with a swastika on it
2:16:52
an image of Hitler's Mein Kampf, as well as suggestions that the UK had a sub-human underclass
2:16:58
We've also got a councillor apologising after posting on social media about, and I quote
2:17:03
non-white persons taking over, end quote, a town park. But I must confess that the other departure from the ranks of Nigel's party was somewhat harder to predict
2:17:15
Chris Chambers is here with the story. Chris, what has happened? Well, we have a man called Stephen Mousdale, who was elected onto St Helens Council last week in the local elections for reform
2:17:28
Comfortable winners in that all out election, taking 34 of the 48 seats, a complete wipeout
2:17:34
Then we find out that Councillor Mousdale actually has an alter ego online
2:17:38
He goes by the name Lachlan Taylor. His bio says he's a porn star, a DJ
2:17:43
He boasts about the size of his manhood, that he is a size 8 shoe
2:17:47
Goes on to say various other bits about his private life. And there is an eye-watering amount of hardcore sex videos
2:17:53
accessible to anybody who cares to watch. At least one of them filmed outside in what looks to be a public place
2:18:00
On this account, there's promo for videos he's released. there's competitions rather
2:18:05
to win a year's free subscription to OnlyFans and there are adverts encouraging people to collaborate
2:18:11
with him and his partners so quite an eye opening and eye watering
2:18:15
revelation. Reforms response Go on. Sorry go on. The vetting, the vetting Chris, the vetting
2:18:21
is supposed to be top draw, they were spending loads of money on it, they'd brought in brilliant people
2:18:25
Nigel assured everybody that now that he was back in charge the vetting would be
2:18:29
absolutely foolproof or porn proof. And this was This wasn't hard to find either. Reform's response to it was that, you know, Councillor Mousdale's lifestyle choices may not be to everybody's taste, but he's not broken the law
2:18:42
Very true. He says the electorate were fully aware before the election and still decided to elect him
2:18:48
Now I argue this stuff wasn on the leaflets or mentioned on the doorstep but you know they say that was the case And they say that Councillor Mousdale is an asset to his local community But he has now resigned saying recently things have come up with regard to myself We have full
2:19:03
jobs and adult professions, all, and this was an interesting line, all which abide by all EU
2:19:09
and UK laws, which I wasn't entirely sure was relevant. I was told to apologise to the public
2:19:14
stop doing what I was doing if I was in for a chance of staying, being a councillor. But he
2:19:18
refused because he hasn't done anything wrong now richard tice go on richard tice was on with
2:19:25
nick ferrari this morning the deputy leader of reform and was asked about the vetting process
2:19:30
and says you know things haven't necessarily gone well well look the reality is when you stand 5 000
2:19:36
candidates whether you're the green party who had to uh dismiss uh many candidates uh every party
2:19:43
with that many candidates you'll get the odd person who you've certainly got odd people you've
2:19:47
You've got that right. You've got porn stars and Nazi supporters. I call them old people. Well done
2:19:52
To be clear, we condemn anybody who says or writes offensive material
2:19:58
and we have a party process that will deal with it. But I would just reiterate, for all of this smearing and nonsense from the media
2:20:05
voters have voted with their feet in their millions and many of them only had a vote thanks to reform
2:20:11
They've said we want more reform. I mean, I don't know whether Richard Tice's very expensive education
2:20:17
was enough to make this very easy for him to understand. But reporting things that have actually happened
2:20:21
are never smears. You know, a smear would involve saying that Nigel Farage had taken £10 million
2:20:29
from an economic migrant based in Thailand. A story is saying that he took £5 million in secret
2:20:35
So, Chris, just to sum up, the party defended him, but he's resigned anyway
2:20:41
on the basis that while they were defending him, they were also privately telling him
2:20:45
that he had to apologise. I think that seems to be the way that this has unfolded
2:20:50
Is that right? That seems to be the case here. What they're saying outwardly
2:20:54
is not necessarily what's happening inwardly. And the argument's been, this is behind closed doors
2:20:59
and he should be allowed to do whatever he wants to do. Now, obviously, it's not behind closed doors
2:21:03
in particular one case where it's next to a huge dry stone wall somewhere on a country path
2:21:08
And then you've got it all over X, which is accessibility. Yeah, I mean, a lot of people
2:21:12
will have a much, much less problem with someone doing pornographic work
2:21:16
than they would with someone apparently being a Nazi. I'm probably one of them
2:21:21
but it's a party management story rather than necessarily a moral judgment story
2:21:28
I just thought that people might be interested in hearing it, not least Richard Tice's pathetic attempt
2:21:33
to gloss over the subject when he was on with Nick earlier. 12.56 is the time
2:21:37
Chris Chambers there, LBC's North West correspondent, who I suspect was probably gearing up
2:21:43
to talk about Andy Burnham when he woke up this morning, or yesterday, and not about a Reform UK councillor
2:21:48
resigning after it emerged that he was living a double life as a hardcore porn star
2:21:54
Rachel's in Wandsworth. To steer us back to the conversation about private schools, Rachel, what would you like to say
2:21:59
Good morning. Or is it afternoon? What time is it? It doesn't matter. It's afternoon. I was going to call and say, look
2:22:04
I was born in Newcastle. I live in London. I was privately educated, first to go to university
2:22:12
in my family to be probably educated. My mum had me when she was 19
2:22:18
I was the first child of that generation in my family. And my husband, by contrast..
2:22:24
Oh, we'll never know. ...who came home. Oh, hang on. Maybe we will. The phone line's gone south
2:22:30
which is a shame. I'm just going to have one go at this, because the phone line's appalling, but can you
2:22:34
tell me what you see? What does your husband see? Well, I don't even know what you... I can't ask the question
2:22:40
can I? Because I didn't get any of the information that I needed. What a shame. Sorry, Rachel. Kate's in Hastings. I've only got a minute, Kate. Is it worth starting
2:22:47
Oh, yes. Go on then. Hi, James. Hello, Kate. It's a knotty question that you've asked there. I'm in a unique position because I was
2:22:55
privately educated at a well-known music school till 14, then due to the death of a parent
2:23:00
Oh, I'm so sorry. That's all right. Ended up in the state sector. Now, obviously, I'm going to have to make this
2:23:07
very brief, but the upshot of it is that I recognised that there were so many differences
2:23:13
between the two, that when I had my own son, despite not being in a particularly good
2:23:17
financial position, I made sure that he went to private school. And what did you
2:23:22
buy for him when you did that? Well, confidence. Is it that word we keep
2:23:27
coming back to? Or at least the appearance of confidence. Exactly that
2:23:31
yeah. And connections and networking and opening of doors and better pastoral PSHE
2:23:39
and guidance in general and mindset and aspiration. There are so many
2:23:43
things. You're good. And did it work? Well, I hope so. He's
2:23:48
at university. He's doing computer science. He's chosen that over music as it's more vocational
2:23:55
which I obviously am very happy with. And he is very confident
2:24:01
He's got a girlfriend that he's been with for a while. That's what it boils down to, isn't it? It seems to. Just that idea. It's not just opening
2:24:06
doors. It's knowing that the doors are there. It's one of the great lessons in life for me as my
2:24:10
social circle after I left school became a lot more diverse than it was when I was there in
2:24:15
socioeconomic terms. And you'd realize that other people didn't even know that the doors existed
2:24:20
let alone how to open them or get through them. I've often thought that wealth is about choice
2:24:25
It can't buy you happiness money, but it can buy you choices and options and access. And all of
2:24:31
those things probably increase your chances of finding happiness at the end of the rainbow
2:24:34
So thank you, Kate. Apologies to Andrew and to others who were waiting to contribute to that conversation
2:24:39
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