Up next in 10
The Conservatives have overtaken Reform UK in the polls thanks to Kemi Badenoch's "good leadership" and Nigel Farage's "£5 million fishy donation", the Tory chairman has told LBC.
It is the first time the Tories have overtaken Reform in 18 months.
00:00 | Has the Reform bubble officially burst?James O'Brien shares his thoughts
13:25 | Reform supporter Luke is left speechless by James O'Brien in a debate on Farage's £5 million 'donation'.
Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp
#jamesobrien #nigelfarage #reform #reformuk #debate #ukpolitics #uknews #kemibadenoch #conservatives #tories #politics #LBC
LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK.
Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/
Sign up to LBC's weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:00
The question I get asked most often right now, if I am lucky enough to bump into you when I'm out and about, is do you think he's finished
0:09
Do you think Farage has fudged it? Do you think reform are done for
0:13
And it's one of those moments where I share with you one of my all-time favourite quotes from popular culture that we could probably all recite together these days
0:22
It's the hope that gets me. It's not the despair. I can deal with the despair. It's the hope that gets me every time
0:30
um if listen why does it matter answer have a look at the united states of america um you have a man
0:36
in the white house who the kindest thing about whom you can say if we're going to talk about
0:40
russia a bit is if he were a if he were a kremlin puppet what would he have done differently from
0:47
what he has done with regards not just to ukraine but of course the broader spectrum of world affairs
0:53
if he were actually um being blackmailed or bribed by vladimir putin how would he have behaved
0:59
differently on the world stage but particularly with reference to Ukraine since the illegal
1:05
invasion? And the answer is really hard because you can't really think of anything he would have
1:09
done differently in the event that he was actually on the Kremlin payroll. So that's one of the
1:14
reasons why you need to worry about the prospect of a reform UK government. They have, you know
1:20
they have form in this field, not just for transferring secret and enormous sums of money
1:25
from foreign-based billionaires, but also for trouncing sums of money in a previous incarnation
1:29
when they called themselves, I think, UKIP, but Nathan Gill was both a protege
1:33
and a close friend and a very close colleague of Nigel Farage
1:37
and throughout he was parroting Kremlin talking points in return for cash
1:41
in return for used notes passed under tables. Well, to be fair, to the best of our knowledge
1:47
Farage was saying almost exactly the same thing without needing to be paid for it
1:52
That's just one reason why you should be worried. The other, of course, is that, again, a quick glance over the Atlantic
1:57
and you'll see the utter destruction of truth and evidence. I think we're up to five. Let me just check with my top team of operatives
2:03
Have we got five journalists now banned from the Reform UK conference, literally for telling the truth
2:09
I said I wasn't going to talk about Russia much today, but that's a tiny bit Stalinist, isn't it
2:14
Why have you been banned from the party conference? Well, I reported something. Oh, dear, but did it turn out not to be true
2:19
Oh, no, it turned out to be completely true. That's why they've banned me. Six, I tell it like we're up to six
2:24
Six journalists currently banned from the Reform UK conference for telling the truth
2:28
And that's the ones that applied. I think we can be fairly confident about what would happen if I were to chuck my hat into that particular ring
2:36
So we're up to six. The party of free speech has currently banned six first-class journalists from its own conference
2:45
So the question I get asked most often is not, are you, writes Judgment Dave, Nigel Farage
2:51
because that might explain why I've never seen you in the same room together since 2014
2:56
And it is not, when are you going to interview him on your show again? Because my door is always open, Sam
3:01
My door is always open, perpetually and permanently. Stephen Nottingham asks, is it, what is your sprouts recipe
3:08
No, I share that regularly, Steve. There would be no need to buttonhole me in private, or indeed in public, to get the answer to that question
3:14
And full marks to the 37 people who have suggested the question I get asked most often in public by you is
3:20
what was it like i will explain that one day for new listeners but for old listeners let's consider
3:26
it a little bit of a a niche um comment 10 minutes after 10 is the time and and i don't know is the
3:34
answer i i mean in a in a logical universe they are finished in a universe or in a country that
3:41
cares about five million pounds worth of secret donations then obviously they're finished in a
3:48
a country that cares about deep and long-standing associations with people that take bribes from a
3:55
foreign power or from a representative of a foreign power then obviously they would be finished. In a
4:01
country that cared about councils being run by 12-year-olds and driven to ridiculous positions
4:07
of infighting and absurdity with councillors literally complaining that it's not fair to hold
4:13
a council meeting because they've got no idea what's going on and they don't understand anything
4:16
in a country that cared about such things, then they would, of course, be finished
4:24
But what have we learnt? And, of course, he's still boycotting the BBC Farage
4:28
but he managed to simultaneously boycott and give an interview to them yesterday
4:32
in which he complained about all the people who complain about him. How many... I mean, good Lord
4:37
Nadine Doris spent almost her entire career as Culture Secretary trying to get me sacked from this job
4:43
Little old me. Little old me. lying about me in select committees
4:47
which are, of course, covered by parliamentary privilege, so not subject to libel proceedings, unluckily
4:52
and trying to get me sacked, contacting badgering my bosses here at LBC Towers
4:57
to actually get me sacked. But no, it's them that are constantly complained about
5:01
I think I've got complaints in at the moment, haven't I, from 30P Lee for calling Nigel Farage names
5:06
That's how thick-skinned and tough they are and dedicated to free speech
5:10
Six journalists currently banned. Actually, the question I get asked second most
5:15
you're quite right, a lot of you have picked up on this, is where did you get your giant coffee mug
5:19
To which the answer is, A, it's tea, and B, it was specially commissioned, and the company went bust shortly afterwards
5:24
so as far as we're aware, it will be impossible to emulate or recreate. So, this week the question assumes a new resonance
5:32
not just because they're holding a party conference in a city where Honest Bob Jenrick recently complained
5:37
there were too many black and brown faces, but also because they have been overtaken in the polls
5:42
for the first time by the leader of the Conservatives, Cammie Baden-Ock, who pledged about a year and a half ago
5:49
that there was absolutely no way she would be reshuffling her shadow cabinet before the next general election
5:54
and reshuffled her shadow cabinet last weekend, promoting the man who was number three in the Treasury when Liz Truss set fire to the nation finances to shadow Chancellor And they overtaken Restore
6:08
Reform. Restore's the other one, led by the bloke who, I think he phoned the police when some charity rowers were spotted off the coast of Great Yarmouth because he thought they were refugees
6:18
I mean, if you look at where Great Yarmouth is, the idea that you could actually row there is a magnificent confection
6:24
But I guess brains have never been the strong suit of people attracted to that kind of politics or that kind of rhetoric
6:30
And that's the tragedy as well, in a way, in that there are lots of people who don't care about any of these things
6:36
They don't care about secret gifts. They don't care about Russian bribes
6:40
They don't care about counseling competence. They don't care about, well, they do care about racism
6:45
We'll get to that. but they don't care about all of the other reasons that might in a normal universe
6:50
hold an organisation or hold a political party below the waterline. So when people ask me
6:58
do you think he has fudged it? I answer no, I don't
7:05
And the reasons are bleak. I mean, he is obviously losing his touch
7:10
and it is obviously a one-man band. But imagine a hideous crime were committed tomorrow
7:15
by somebody with brown or black skin. Just imagine. That's all it has to be
7:22
It doesn't have to be somebody who's recently arrived here. It doesn't have to be somebody who is an asylum seeker
7:27
It doesn't have to be somebody who has any criminal record or form or whatsoever
7:32
Just imagine if a terrible crime were committed tomorrow by somebody with brown or black skin
7:38
And I still think that our media would be calibrated to provide coverage to the man
7:43
who has absolutely nothing to say about crimes committed by white people, but where the rest of us see horror and tragedy
7:49
sees opportunity and self-advancement. So if that were to happen on a regular enough basis
7:58
I think he may be able to regain the political momentum that has deserted him
8:05
The finances, I mean, you know, I thought I lived in a country where small C conservatives really cared about this stuff
8:12
And if somebody is taking £5 million in secret from a mega-rich foreign-based billionaire
8:18
that would be the end of their political career. But you're talking about people who profess to care deeply about Keir Starmer's spectacles
8:26
and who now profess to care not a jot about Nigel Farage's £5 million
8:35
So, I don't think it is game over, despite some members of the media who have been much more sympathetic to the characters involved
8:45
and the parties, the various parties he has led. I don't think it is over
8:50
Other pollsters have still got them ahead of the Tories, but Labour under Andy Burnham have pushed them into second place, perhaps unexpectedly
8:58
Certainly seemed a long way off under the last Labour leader, but these bounces are rarely permanent
9:04
although the Andy Burnham one is sustaining in such a way that the right-wing media is now
9:08
not just sharpening their cudgels, but very, very rapidly unsheathing them. I just don't think
9:17
and maybe I'm too pessimistic. The fact that, you know, we look at Donald Trump's approval ratings
9:23
and everybody else says they've gone through the floor, and I say, how can anybody still support him
9:28
How can anybody still think that Donald Trump is anything other than a depraved lunatic
9:35
There's a war in Iran. absolute gold standard of the things that he promised he'd never do
9:41
Pointless foreign wars, which he's losing, by the way. The abandonment of Ukraine
9:45
Before you even look at domestic politics, how could anybody in Britain still hold a torch for Donald Trump
9:51
who has betrayed Ukraine, something that was a rare example in British politics of unity
9:56
Although, of course, Farage tried to blame the illegal invasion of Ukraine on Ukraine
10:00
just as he did with the illegal invasion of Crimea. Then you've got Iran
10:04
something that Farage felt that we should have been getting involved in but which Events of Tortoise has been and was always destined to be
10:11
an unmitigated disaster. And yet still, the idea that there is something admirable
10:20
something desirable, something impressive about the man sustains, it persists. And that's the main reason why I'm pessimistic about all of the trouble
10:30
surrounding finances, surrounding incompetence, surrounding infighting, surrounding all of the things that we've listed
10:37
I still don't think that they are hold below the waterline. I still don't think that you are or we are currently witnessing
10:46
the end of the greatest political grift of our time. It is 17 minutes after 10
10:53
You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. And the question is
10:57
as Kemi Badenock of all people overtakes or Kemi Badenock's conservatives overtake Reform UK in an
11:06
opinion poll for the first time in more than 500 days is this the beginning of the end for reform
11:16
or do you like I mean obviously this is one of those phonies where I want you to talk me out of
11:21
my own sincerely held position. I'm probably, I mean, I can't say 52-48, can I? Because it's
11:29
actually sadly a little bit deeper than that. But I'm 60-40. I'm certainly swayable. And
11:34
do you know what really breaks my heart? And this is the thing I'll never forgive the far right for, whether they're operating in the media or whether they're operating in politics
11:42
It spoils your view of your own people, doesn't it? Spoils your view of your own fellow citizens
11:47
The fact that people can really forgive almost anything if the racism is offered to them in an attractive enough way
11:56
That's the thing that I think is hard to undo and hardest to forgive
11:59
It happened in families The amount of messages I get of people who are falling out with their own family because they swallowing all the nonsense that been shoved in their direction by people desperate that we don talk about all of the things that we talked about yesterday like a fair distribution of wealth or equality or decency
12:17
Let's just point at some people and shout about how much we hate them
12:21
It breaks my heart to see that happen on a national level. God knows what it would be like on a family-based level
12:27
but do you think they are um do you think we are witnessing the beginning of the end because under
12:35
almost all circumstances the point at which you get overtaken by a party led by kemi badenot would
12:42
be the point at which you would either pack up and go home or start if you're not the top man
12:47
start agitating for change oh three four five six oh six oh nine seven three is the number that you
12:55
need. What do you reckon? The Conservatives have overtaken Reform UK in an opinion poll for the
13:00
first time in more than 500 days. Farage is looking thin-skinned, petulant and weak. He's looking very
13:06
small. He's looking to be all of the things that some of us have always known he is. Whiny, small
13:14
self-pitying, self-serving and self-pitying always go hand in hand. But will it matter
13:19
enough for the kind of people minded to vote for him to change their mind
13:25
Luke is in Bridgewater. Luke, what would you like to say? Yeah, good morning
13:31
I'm a reform voter and earlier on in your programme you said that you haven't had the opportunity to speak to a reform voter
13:38
Well, I mean, not so far today, so thank you for coming on
13:41
What do you think about the current travails? Well, I'll be brutally honest
13:46
it's like I said to your researcher on the phone Nigel has had
13:52
a difficult summer and the party do need to reset through all the conferences and whatever
14:01
I completely agree that his by-election stunt was a bad idea Why
14:11
I just think it was a bit of a waste of taxpayers' money to be perfectly honest with you
14:15
Why do you think he did it? Um, well, I believe he did it to give the people of Clapton a choice
14:23
But they had that two years ago. Yeah. Yes, they had that two years ago
14:28
And they voted, and they voted for Nigel. So why did they need to do it again
14:35
Um, well, because of the constant attacks that Nigel's had through the media and through the establishment
14:43
For example. Well, hang on a minute. Listen, before we get into the constant attacks
14:48
because I think what you're describing is things that actually happened that other people are pointing out
14:52
what do you mean when you use the word establishment? Well, the Labour and Tories and the Liberal Democrats
15:00
What about all the Tories that have joined reform? Yeah, every PMQs, every opportunity Keir Starmer had
15:08
whether he was there or not, all he ever seemed to do was attack Nigel Farage
15:12
I mean, I'm going to be polite, but he didn't. He spent all of his time attacking Kemi Bader, mate
15:19
and she spent all of his time attacking him. So in that battle there, which one is the establishment
15:26
Well, both the establishment. But they're attacking each other. They're attacking each other
15:31
but they don't want each other in power either. Well, yeah, I get that
15:36
And there was no parliament over the course of the summer, was there? So when you said the entire summer getting attacked by the establishment
15:42
you obviously didn't mean what was happening in Parliament. No, during the PMQs, before they broke up for summer
15:47
So how was he attacked over the summer? Well, he wasn't attacked over the summer, I suppose
15:54
You just said he was. Well, that's just, yeah, you just, well, you just, yeah, okay, that's fair enough
16:01
Yeah, I did say that. And no, I was wrong. You're right, he wasn't attacked over the summer. But that was your reason for him calling the by-election
16:09
It's, well, it's the attacks he's had since the Reform Party has gained as much traction as it has
16:17
So let's run through those. Well, you can't deny that they've been pulling it
16:22
No, no, the attacks. Well, why are they making such a big deal of the £5 million donation
16:29
Do you remember Keir Starmer's... He received that donation before he was elected as an MP
16:35
But you have to declare anything that you receive in the 12 months prior to becoming an MP
16:41
Right, but that's actually not by law though, is it? Well, I mean, it is the subject of the investigation that he went to the by-election in Clacton to sort of curtail or respond to
16:53
So he obviously thinks it's very important. But it's not a legal investigation that he's undergoing, is it
16:58
Well, no, but it wasn't a legal investigation when Boris Johnson was found to have breached parliamentary rules
17:03
and he left Parliament entirely as a consequence of that. But why, I mean, when you say you sort of think it's been inflated
17:09
were you very cross when everybody was going on about Keir Starmer's spectacles
17:13
I'll be honest, I was, yeah. I thought, well, why is everyone making such a big deal out of it
17:18
Yeah, because it was just spectacles. Yeah. Yeah, as opposed to five million pounds, secretly donated by a foreign-based billionaire
17:26
for his security. No, no, no, he's changed that story now. It was a reward for Brexit
17:34
Oh, hang on, I think he might have changed that story as well. It's for whatever he wants it to be
17:39
and he can spend it on high-performance motorcars should he so desire. So there have been three different answers to that question
17:44
Which one do you believe? You've taken that completely out of context
17:48
He said he could spend it on high-performance motorcars if he wanted to
17:52
because it was a donation for him to spend that as well. So it wasn't for security
17:56
It was, which he will use for security, yes But it was a reward for Brexit
18:01
Well no he never said that did he Yeah he did Well can I just say I been listening to you all morning this morning Let not talk about me because I do that all the time Let carry on talking about you
18:14
Did you not realise he'd said it was a reward for Brexit? Yes, I did, yeah
18:18
But you just said he never said that. Oh. So just run me through what it is you like about the guy before I go to the news
18:31
Well, I think we just need a complete change. We've had two-party politics for too many years
18:37
and it's about time someone else had a go, basically. OK, what, Mr Blobby? Count Benface
18:44
Or the bloke that took £5 million in secret and told so many different stories about it
18:49
that his supporter can't even remember which one he thought was true two minutes ago
18:53
Let's give him a go. Well, everyone was singing for Count Benface not so long ago
18:59
I'm pretty sure you was even advocating for him during the Clackton-by-election
19:03
No, see, I'm prevented from doing so by dint of the rules
19:08
that govern all broadcasters, so that's something else you never heard happen
19:19
I... yeah. I'm obviously not going to win you over, are you
19:23
I mean, you've spent all morning... You can win me over. Tell me something true. Well, you've spent most of the morning calling me a racist
19:31
I never said you're a racist. I've never met you before. You've said the majority of reform voters must be racist
19:36
Or comfortable with racism. Well, I'm neither. OK, so when Robert Jenrick said that he hated the fact that in Birmingham he didn't see any white faces..
19:46
I disagreed with him. I completely disagreed with him. And when Sarah Pochin said she hates it, drives her mad when she's watching television
19:51
and she sees so many brown and black faces. Yeah, I completely disagreed with her
19:56
So you were very uncomfortable with that? Yeah, I was, yeah. But you still support them
20:03
Yeah, because... So you're comfortable with racism? Well, no, I'm not comfortable with racism, no
20:07
But you still support them? I support the party, yeah. So you're comfortable with racists
20:13
No. But you still support the party? Well, yeah, I do support the party
20:17
And the people doing the racism are in the party? The thing is, you're taking it completely out of context
20:23
You keep saying that and I've got a horrible feeling you're not entirely sure what it means
20:27
Well, I do know exactly what it means. What? Well, it means that you're blowing things out in proportion
20:32
and you're using it to suit your argument. It doesn't mean that. You're telling me that you're cross about being
20:38
described as comfortable with racism. I'm describing all the racism. You're telling me you still support them
20:43
I'm suggesting that means you're comfortable with it. That's 110% inco... OK, but you're not uncomfortable enough
20:49
to support some party that's not obviously full of racists. Well, no, because we had 14 years of the Conservatives
20:57
and look at the state of the country that they left. Yeah. Labour have been in power for two years
21:01
You mean people like Robert Jenrick, Suella Braverman, Danny Kruger, Andrew Rosindale
21:07
Yes, who stood down from the Conservative parties. But they were in the government you're critiquing. Yes, and they stood down because they didn't agree
21:14
with the way that the country is being governed. No, no, they were governing it, mate
21:18
They only stood down after they lost the election. No, they... Yeah, and they stood down because they knew that was why they lost the election
21:26
was because they did such a terrible job. Right, and now you're going to vote for them again
21:31
Well, no, I'm going to vote for the reform party. Because they are now in the reform party that you're still supporting
21:36
Under a different leadership with completely different values. But they're the same people
21:41
Yeah, they've got different values. Well, what are the different values that they have
21:46
well I can't tell you that for a fact just a theory
21:52
I don't know one sorry alright hand on heart what do you really like about them
22:01
I just think that the country needs change I just think that the country needs change
22:10
it's been two party politics for far too long yeah okay Why not the Greens? Why not the Liberal Democrats
22:17
Because I don't align with their views. Well, you can't tell me what the things that you do align with are
22:24
Because when I ask you, you just say, I don't know, I haven't got anything, but I just want change
22:28
I don't, yeah, I do want change. The only thing I know for you for certain
22:31
is that you're definitely very uncomfortable with all the racism being done in the party that you support
22:37
because you want to change. So what are the views that you align with, do you think, Luke
22:40
Well, I believe that illegal immigration needs to be stopped into this country
22:45
Everybody agrees with that these days. But does that make someone racist
22:50
I didn't say it did. I'm asking what aligns with your views that reform offer that nobody else offers
22:55
Well, I like their policies on the economy, for example. Go on
23:01
Well, they wanted to raise a tax threshold up to 20%. And how is that going to impact you
23:09
Well, it would impact my local community because there's lots of people unemployed
23:13
or local businesses would be able to employ more people. Okay. Are you sure
23:22
Yeah. All right. That'll do. I mean, that'd be a nice change, wouldn't it
23:26
Well, yeah, definitely. Okay. Do you think there are any circumstances in which you'd think
23:32
maybe this is not a party that is going to be good for the United Kingdom
23:36
Or maybe these people who, as you've pointed out yourself, many of whom spent 14 years misgoverning the country
23:44
and turning it into the mess that you think it is today. I'd probably agree with you on bits of that
23:48
Do you think there's anything that would make you think, hang on a minute, I think I might have been sold a pup here
23:53
No, not really, to be honest. Not do I. There we go, we found something to agree on
23:58
I can't imagine any circumstances whatsoever in which you'd think that. Fair enough
24:04
Before you go, quick question. Do you like Donald Trump? No, I'm not a fan of Donald Trump, no
24:09
Good man
news