Can Andy Burnham really pull this one off? | James O'Brien - The Whole Show

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Good morning. Three minutes after ten is the time. I hope you had a cracking weekend
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I have quite a lot to get through today. Obviously we will be keeping a very close eye on that
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incident in Fairford. Still, I mean, thank God nothing terrible happened and we await
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details of what was or was not planned. But I don't know how much of the detail of the
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story you've read it's such a i i mean i'd even go so far as to say it's got such a cotswold
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subtext not even such an english subtext a woman driving back from a party whose husband was asleep
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in the passenger seat was dropping off a friend you can almost smell the birth bourguignon can't
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you coming out of that scenario and and encountered what she originally thought would be some sort of
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security exercise and then clock the fact that they kind of didn't look like the full ticket
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as it were. So she just phoned 999. And the next thing you know, a major incident has been declared
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and we're speculating about whether or not it might be an Iranian-sponsored terror attack
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One quick word on opportunism and treachery. I don't understand completely, well, unfortunately
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I do, this insistence that we must be told what nationality they are. Do you honestly think you're
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not going to find out what nationality they are so why do you want to know now why is it the people
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insisting that they need to know now are the same people that many of us consider responsible for
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things like oh i don't know the farage riots it's almost as if they're really really hoping
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there'll be some sort of ethnic or religious dimension to the story so that people who have
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nothing to do with any events that have or have not unfolded in fairford can somehow be held
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responsible for it i i don't know why it always falls to me to join these particular dots but
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we're going to find out who the arrested men are. We're going to find out what they are suspected of doing
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We're going to find out where they're from. We're going to find out what their star sign is. Why do people like Farage go, we need to know now
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Because he wants to make points about people that aren't them, but who share a certain characteristic
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I think that's pretty straightforward once it's explained to you. So, of course, it's up to you now
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whether you continue to subscribe to that rather sinister school of thought or whether you move into the light with the rest of us
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any developments there will bring you toot sweet and so we come to social
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well two things actually I'm in one of those moods aren't I I hope I managed to find some way of focusing on the central issues of the day
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before we throw open the phone lines two things occur to me
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one just popped up at the end of last week and one is very much back in the news today
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as John Healy the Chancellor of the Exchequer prepares to address conference today
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something which I'm currently minded to take If not in its entirety, then certainly we'll begin coverage of that speech live
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There was a little bit of a round-up in a column last week, and I double-checked the figures
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You don't really have to, but it's always worth double-checking things. The percentage of people..
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I can't remember whether I told you this on Friday. I think I might have teased you with the statistic and then not delivered the answer
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God, what an amateur. God, imagine a radio presenter who does so-called hooks and teasers
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and then forgets to give you the answer to the thing that he's teased you with. The percentage of our population that over the course of a lifetime will take more out of the system than they put in is currently about 53%
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Now, obviously, if you've earned a relatively average income and then you spend quite a few years being a pensioner, an old-age pensioner and not earning, then you can see how that happens
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You move into, if you like, the red in the course of a lifetime
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46% at risk of bombarding you with figures 46% working age people coming to this country
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in the hope of working and propping up not just our ailing demographic
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people living longer and being poorlier and younger people having fewer and fewer children
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not only are we actively repelling people who might come here and fix both sides of that demographic time bomb
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but we are also showing no sign whatsoever of stopping the endless calls for it
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So those are the twin facts. Extraordinary, right? It's extraordinary that this situation is allowed to persist
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But of course, it's not extraordinary when you think about where politicians and governments
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would go for the money that they desperately need if the country hadn't been persuaded
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to obsess endlessly about immigration. It would go to the people who've got it all
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And I don't even mean the high earners. I mean the assets. The assets that we have spent 50 years moving from public ownership into private ownership
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and from ordinary people into an ever-shrinking fiscal elite. But I digress, because that ain't what we're talking about today
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What we're talking about today is Andy Burnham's determination to sort something out
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And I suspect this has a lot to do with his personal experiences with his father. And that's both a good thing and a bad thing at the same time
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It's a bad thing because it reminds us of the old adage that this programme often operates at its best under
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which is things about which you know nothing until you need to know everything. So Andy Burnham will know almost everything
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about the difficulties of dealing with, in his family's case, in his late father's case, dementia
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but more broadly with social care. People who are not in receipt of specifically medical care
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but who need looking after pretty much all the time but whose family or even they are therefore on the hook
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for the costs of that care in a way that they wouldn't be if they had cancer. It's as simple as that
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If it is a physical illness, a traditional illness, is that a word even, then it's free at the point of care
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It's of course also one of the reasons why so many of us end up taking more out of the pot than we put in
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But if it's social care, if you just need help as opposed to treatment, then you've got to pay for it yourself
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Scotland have got a pretty good deal already, as is often the case when we turn our attention to these sort of issues
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And we'll include that in the conversation. But Andy Burnham has described his determination to rip the plaster off and to radically transform care
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to turn it into a universal service that would be free at the point of use for everybody in England
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He hasn't detailed exactly how it would be paid for, but it is almost certainly going to involve some sort of tax rise
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And that, of course, is politically toxic in a country whose discourse is dominated by right-wing media
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He's also pledged to put it into a general election manifesto. And the last time a prime minister did that, it was, of course, Theresa May
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And it was a disaster. It was widely regarded as being the main reason why she went from a healthy lead in the polls when she called the general election to actually losing ground to a Labour Party led by Jeremy Corbyn
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And he hasn't detailed yet what it is that he's going to do. He has rejected suggestions that it could cost as much as billion a year which of course is three times what we losing every year as a consequence of falling migration But he thinks that it will be lower and insists that he will grasp the nettle
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And he talks about being unpopular, which is a wonderful thing to see for those of us who try to actually understand what's going on
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rather than taking our political guidance from your Uncle Bob's racist Facebook page
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He is prepared to be unpopular, but he knows that it has to be done
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He knows that it has to be done. Quarter past ten is the time. It's Monday
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so we'll be doing the Burnham Optimism Barometer at some point. I know my monologues are quite lengthy
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but it's because there's quite a lot to get through, particularly on Mondays when we sit down. So I'm going to do things a little bit differently today
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I'm going to hit this junction on time, and I'm going to come back and talk a little bit more
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about the first phone-in that we're going to have. But if you want to get in early, the question will probably involve some variation upon this theme
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Would you be happy to see your taxes go up to fund social care for everybody
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Because at the moment, it's a bit of a gamble. Most people won't have to fork out for it, for themselves or for their loved ones
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So most of us, probably in utilitarian terms, are better off under the current system
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and we would be under a system where our taxation paid for everybody's social care
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But the same, of course, is true of the NHS. So that's probably where we're heading
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but you'll have to stay tuned to find out exactly where we end up. James O'Brien on LBC
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Two minutes after ten. So I think in the finest traditions of the time we spend together every day
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we are looking for both stories and opinions. The opinion is going to be looking at the wisdom or otherwise
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of using universal taxation to fund families that have members who need social care
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because it certainly ain't all of us. The same, of course, is true of cancer. Many families will never have cancer in their midst
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or a direct family will not have cancer in their midst, and yet, of course, our taxation is still required to pay for all the families that do
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But I think I forget sometimes how shocked I was the very first time
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I realised that this was the mothership of stories whereby or wherein
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we know nothing until we need to know everything. So I actually want some facts and figures
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particularly if you still can't quite believe it. You hear idiots like me on the radio
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Actually, that's not fair. I'm not an idiot every day. You hear characters like me on the radio talking about this
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and you sort of tune me out a bit, because you're sort of thinking, well, Mum's fine. We've got, I'm only 20, none of this is going to affect me anytime soon
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I get it. I used to do it myself. I used to present programmes, or at least listen to programmes, 20 years ago
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where even I was tuning it out. Social care, social schmer. My mum and dad are in their 50s
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I mean, it's never going to matter. It's not something that particularly..
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Then my grandparents died young, or I was young when my grandparents died. We never really had responsibility for..
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Haven't been touched by dementia as a family. Everything's hunky-dory, everything's fine
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And then boom, suddenly it isn't. And you are still reeling from the simple financial impact
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And it's a grim comparison, but it's the one that I'm going to use. If your loved one had motor neurone disease
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well, that actually is probably not a great example because the necessity of care is so obvious and so acute
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But if your loved one had a form of cancer and you were required to pay for it, you'd be bankrupt
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but if your loved one is simply fragile if i told you my mum ended up on a ward the other week that
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i hadn't even heard of before it was called the acute frailty ward it's a chilling phrase isn't it
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i almost brought tears to my eyes when i first heard it i thought i'd misheard actually on the
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switchboard the acute frailty ward and my mum was poorly she actually had all sorts of things going
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on, but you reach a point of acute frailty. You don't need to be ill. You are acutely frail
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and you need constant care. You need constantly looking after. But if there's no
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actual diagnosable illness there, then you're going to have to pay for it yourself. So bearing
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in mind that there'll be people listening to this who truly don't have the first idea about the costs
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involved, let's talk about how much it has cost you or your loved one. The simple impact
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financially of looking after somebody who, if you want to engage in slightly emotive cliché
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who has worked all their lives, who has made an enormous contribution to this country
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who was possibly in the armed services or the emergency services. And then when the time came
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when the curtain began to fall, it turned out you're going to have to pay for all this care
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yourself. So the house that you were hoping to leave to your children or your grandchildren gets
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sold or the money that you were hoping to use for a retirement has to go on the care of one of you
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even though they would much rather you kept it for yourself and went on that cruise that you'd
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always dreamt though do you see what I mean just the simple financial realities of it because an
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awful lot of people listening will not know 03456060973 and then alongside the experience
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the opinion do you think Andy Burnham can pull this off do you think that putting taxes up
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to fund universal social care that's free at the point of use
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is a mountain that he can succeed in climbing where pretty much every previous prime minister
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including specifically Boris Johnson and Theresa May, have signally failed. And remember, social care isn't just about old people
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Social care is about anybody that needs looking after because they can no longer look after themselves
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and possibly because they never could look after themselves. Amy is in Hemel Hempstead
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Amy, what would you like to say? hi James big fan thank you yeah so my dad is currently 72 and he went into a care home in
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spring with Alzheimer's and dementia he was diagnosed uh 2021 during COVID which was not
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great time to be diagnosed with Alzheimer's it took a a long time and there wasn't a lot of help
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um so he's kind of I would say in the last stages now he's completely non-verbal um and starting not
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to recognize definitely me i think he still remembers my mum um but i suppose i tried to
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ring last week when you were talking about a similar thing because it's so relevant to our family at the moment but um because mum was really struggling to look after him by herself she's
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really fit and active but it was a lot you know he started having fits uh he became incontinent
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it was really really difficult his moods were up and down it was really really hard and um
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a care home really was the only option. It was sort of driving her into the ground
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And, you know, she's got some years left to enjoy as well. And it was, you know, it was really, really hard work
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The fees are £9,000 a month. There it is. So just pause, because you're used to this now
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although I suspect it came as a fairly major shock when you first got told that
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Yeah, I thought it was going to be around five. Nine is correct. Nine is wild
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I just, my parents worked really hard all their lives. and had savings
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And, you know, I think the plan was to travel and go on nice holidays during retirement
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And that didn't come to be, sadly. And that money so the savings are depleting The savings are depleting She nearly now at a stage where it gets handed over to the estate I believe
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She'll never have to move out of her home. Well, this is one of the reasons I'm ringing at you
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So interestingly, the house that we've lived in since I was 12, I'm now in my 40s, she's still in
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It's got a big house. She's by herself, obviously. It's a lot to look after, but there's quite a lot wrong with it
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like it possibly has subsidence, there's some, like, leaking problems. And if she moves, potentially half the equity of the house would go to Dad's care
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So it completely limits her moving and where she can go. Are you following me
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Yes, I hadn't thought of that. So she can stay there for the rest of her life, regardless of what happens to your dad
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But she might not actually want to. And because of what's happening to your dad, her hands are sort of tied
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because that money would go immediately. It wouldn't go when she passes away or when he passes away
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Exactly. And, you know, we live in quite an expensive part of the UK
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House prices are expensive in Hertfordshire. And with the work that needs doing on the house
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she probably won't get what she should do for it and then that's going to limit where she moves
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So it does seem hugely unfair. So I suppose to answer the question, I'd be more than happy to pay into the system
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Well, of course you would. And you sound lovely, so we will theorise and speculate
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You listening to the radio 10 years ago or listening to the radio now when your dad never got dementia
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and then all of us are going to pay more tax in order to pay for families like yours
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when the majority of us will not be in one. Would you still have been all in favour of it
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if it was for thee and not for me? as it were or for me and not for me
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I think I would have been. I'm a bit of a socialist. I probably would have agreed
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to that. I mean you've only got to see it. You know we went to visit
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him in the home on Saturday and it's really sad. You know
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there's women just sort of wandering around lost. My dad doesn't say a lot
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A few of them will come over to us and chat to us and it doesn't make a lot of sense
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but it is sad. You know I took my children who are 14 and 11
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and they were both in tears. He doesn't speak to us. we just played some music to him, all his favourite songs
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and that seems to get him more excited than anything else now
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But it is a really sad state of affairs for all those people in the home
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Presumably that's at the higher end of care. Is it or not
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He's in a nursing home because of his needs. So I think hence why it's the nine grand
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But it's pretty standard. I think seven to nine grand is about right
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I mean, it sounds like a lot of money, but when you think about the rent, the food, the actual nursing staff, everything that is involved in the costs, it kind of makes sense
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It's nine grand a month, I think. Well, it soon adds up, and there's no suggestion that those figures are going to cut
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Well, I mean, we don't know what slice off the top the providers of private care, the private providers of care are taking
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And, of course, that is the great tragedy of the last 50 years
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is the commoditisation of everything, really, from the water that's coming out of your tap to the care for an elderly relative
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But, you know, I suppose arguably people voted for it, whatever you want to call it, neoliberalism or rampant capitalism
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But there might be a little bit of money to be saved if it came into public ownership
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but no one's talking about that yet with regards to most care homes
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And there's the problem. So nine grand a month, you've got to find it
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But about 45% in the southeast, which is why Amy mentions house prices, are self-funding
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In the northeast, it goes down to 24.6%. But that just gives you an idea of one of the statistics
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That's the families that do need it. Only roughly half of them in the wealthiest part of the country are self-funding
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So for the people who aren't self-funding, their taxes would go up as well. that's probably why it's so politically toxic actually because unlike Amy most people would
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say well I'm not going to have to pay it so why should I pay even if I go into it even if one of
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my loved ones needs social care I'm not going to have to pay for it so why would I want my taxes
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to go out to pay for other people to be looked after and that you know morally and emotionally
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is very much the direction of traffic in this country at the moment it wasn't always but if
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If it wasn't for Nye Bevin, frankly, we never would have had an NHS. It was an extraordinary effort of will from one single individual politician
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who just refused to be cowed or turned away from his path
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I don't know if Andy Burnham is a politician of quite that calibre
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although we will now open the Burnham Optimism Barometer. So, if you want to text 84850 with a mark out of 10
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for how optimistic you feel about Andy Burnham, not for what you think of his performance
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we may move on to that a little later in the year, but just how optimistic you feel about it
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today, after some ten weeks or so of his premiership, just text that number to 84850 or WhatsApp it to 03456060973
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and we'll get the results up shortly. The time now is half past ten
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and Dominic Ellis is here with your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC
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And 33 is the time you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
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where the, I mean, the key question here is the calculation on whether you're going to need it or not
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This would be social care that's free at the point of care versus your happiness seeing your taxes go up
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So if you're on the hook for nine grand a month at the moment because your dad is in a home
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then you are almost certainly going to be coming out of this equation
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better off if taxes go up to pay for everybody who's in that situation
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But the majority of us won't be. which means that the Tories will campaign on
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he's putting up taxes, we're spending too much on, I don't know
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cigarettes for children, whatever it is they're going to claim is the real reason why the country is in fiscal peril
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And it will work. People will fall for it. The Daily Mail will throw its full weight behind the thing that is not true
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The reason why the Chancellor has little fiscal headroom is because, well, in one way, one big reason for it at the moment
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it's because immigration is coming down, and that leaves us worse off as a country than we would be if it wasn't
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But they're never going to be able to explain that to you, are they? Because it's what they've told you that you want
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So how does it work, do you reckon? And that figure of 9,000, just how it hits you financially
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How you go from 0 to 60 in three seconds flat when it comes to understanding the financial reality of these scenarios
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for, quotes, ordinary people. Stephen is in Carlisle. Stephen, what do you reckon
22:00
yeah i mean we've uh good morning yeah we've just been through it as a family with my dad
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um unfortunately he passed away in june um yeah but i mean it went on for four or five years
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and uh just like the the lady i was listening to before on the phone she
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she described it quite well i mean it it an absolute financial nightmare um You know he worked really really hard all his life and you know he had this thing oh yeah you
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know be happy when I can leave the family a little bit. We decided as a family needed the
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best of care when it came to it. He had care at home full-time carers and then they couldn't
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manage him so we had to put him but we found the best care home we could because it was his money
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we decided it was his money. When he was having care at home, was that self-funded as well, or did that come from..
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No, self-funded. It was self-funded. Yeah, yeah, it was costing... It was costing basically, well
23:07
about over £4,000 a month, but we had to keep the house going as well
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And this is dementia, though, but if he had had... Yeah, dementia, yeah. If he'd been physically compromised
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then it would have been NHS provision there, not social care. Well, this is the whole thing
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You know, there is a thing called continuing health care, but the criteria is so strict to get anything near that
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to get any help near that criteria, that, you know, people are then bed-bound and on the last legs
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you know, in a lot of ways. Yes, I know. It's the hardest thing to actually understand
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unless you have, like you, been right through it, in this distinction. I mean, dementia is the
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forgive me for sounding crass, Stephen, but it's kind of like the trump card, isn't it
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It's a mental decline. Yeah. I mean, in some ways it is physical
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because the brain is an organ, but it's not the same as someone who can't walk
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and therefore needs help getting to bed at night or going to the... Do you see what I mean
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It's such a strange distinction when you actually break it down. But it's, you know
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that everybody knows about the mind-body connection. Yeah, of course. It's just..
24:23
That affects everything. I mean, you know, even when my dad was incontinent
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and had all the worst things you could ever imagine with dementia
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there was no help available at all. You know, so... Because it was dementia-related
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It is dementia-related. And I mean, I'm not 100% on top of this
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But I'm sure there's other conditions where there is help there. But it's not like urgent medical care or specific medical care
24:56
It's more like the long-term grind of care that exempts you from state support
25:02
And then when he went into a home, the house is next to go, potentially
25:06
Yeah, well, we were at the stage where we were going to have to put the house up for sale to, well, we did
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to fund his care in the care home. And to be honest
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the last few months of his life, he was bed-bound. And in the end
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we did manage to get a little bit of the continuing health care for him
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because his condition was that bad. But honestly, it's just such a fight
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Everything's such a fight. And it's as if people don't want to tell you what helps out there
25:47
You know, in the end, I was lucky enough to get a half-decent social worker
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but before that, it was an absolute nightmare. I've had a little taste of some of this in recent months
25:58
nothing like as serious or as severe as what you've been through, but I sensed a couple of points
26:04
I wonder whether you noted this. I wouldn't like to use the word competing
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But certainly when the hospital wants a bed back and they're keen to get somebody home
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and yet there are concerns that that person isn't ready to go home
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it sometimes feels like they're not all on the same side, all of the people involved in that process
26:26
Yeah, I can see that. And to be honest, when you go, you get into a situation where my dad had to
26:32
a couple of times, go into hospital because he had falls and different things at home
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And, you know, the communication between... I don't really want to criticise anything
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No, I can tell you don't, and I don't really want you to, but sometimes the left hand doesn't know what the right hand's doing
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I think we can say that. Exactly, yeah. We can say that without attacking either the left hand or the right hand, Stephen
26:55
Can't we? Yeah, it's about communication, really. But as a family, it can cause problems within families as well
27:08
Well, of course it can, because there are different priorities and different things. John Crace in The Guardian today makes this point
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although from a perspective where I don't think there was any family falling out
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but it is an experience many have gone through. My sisters and I, he writes, had to sell my mother's house to pay for her care
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during the last seven years of her life as she suffered from Alzheimer's. We didn't mind so much, but my mother would have been gutted had she been aware
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It mattered to her that she could leave her house to the three of us, paying a little extra in tax to make sure that other people
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possibly even you, don't have to burn through their assets seems the kind of thing any fair-minded society would do
27:45
And he's right until the usual suspects pop up and start pretending that all the money is going to go on illegal immigrants
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or children smoking 40 s a day. And they will do that
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I exaggerate slightly in the second example, but that's what will happen. And if it never happens, if Burnham can't get it over the line
28:03
or he campaigns for it on the next general election and loses, that will be why
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John Craze, one of my favourite writers, nails it. Why? He says, Burnham ended by saying, this is his interview yesterday on the BBC
28:14
he very much hoped to work cross-party on all this. It was too important not to
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This aspiration lasted all of five minutes, because that's how long it took the ever-ridiculous Chris Philp
28:23
to start going on about a death and dementia tax, like clockwork
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The Philpster becomes more and more a parody of himself, the Tory party's very own Alan
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venal, self-serving and not very bright. A man whose answer to everything has cut the welfare bill still further, seemingly unaware his leader has already spent the cuts her party has proposed
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It's as if he sees dementia as a personal failing. That's the tension. That's why I conduct these phone-ins in the way that I do
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The reality versus the rhetoric. That is the reality. Stephen's experience is the reality. All our caller's experience is the reality
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the rhetoric is oh well the only reason he's going to have to put taxes up
29:02
to pay for this is because everybody's living a life of Riley on welfare
29:05
everybody's living a life of Riley on universal credit and that's a lie
29:09
and people like Chris Philp know it's a lie but it's as if he's done a deal
29:14
whereby I'll tell lots of lies and it will increase my chances of getting back into power
29:18
even though almost all of the lies that I tell are rendered ridiculous as well as dishonest
29:22
by what we actually did last time we were in power including people like me
29:26
Chris Philp, who had quite big jobs at the time. It's tragic, really
29:30
And then you factor in the other two elements. 53% of us are going to be taking more out of the pot than we put in anyway
29:37
Where does that leave you if you're saying, oh, taxes, taxes, taxes? But I don't know how many people see it until it's too late
29:44
Emma's in Leeds. Emma, what would you like to say? Hi, I'm a hospital social worker
29:49
Gosh, that's hard work. It's my job to meet your relatives in hospital
29:55
and discuss what care is available outside of hospital. Right. if people are having bad experiences, but I can't speak for everybody, obviously
30:03
No, of course. But what I can say... I'll shut up for a while. What I can say is in the last 10 years since I've been working in hospital social work
30:12
the financial ability to provide and offer options for people has been squeezed and squeezed and squeezed
30:20
I'm working for a council who literally have cut all their services
30:25
in the last couple of years because they're in debt to the government because they were about to go bust because of our social care bill
30:32
And so I stand at people's hospital beds now and I have to offer them charged services
30:37
because I can no longer offer them a period of free service because we can't afford it as a council
30:42
And that's not, I mean, just to clarify, because I know you know this, but not everyone listening will
30:46
that's a postcode thing. That is literally not going to be the case in other parts of the country
30:50
Your lady was paying £9,000 a month. Where I live, you know, people are paying a lot less than that
30:58
because of the area we live in. Yes, of course. A lot less. But it's still a lot of money for the demographics
31:04
Yes. And the competition for those beds is horrendous. But what I do want to say
31:08
I listened to Andy Burnham yesterday. Yeah. And obviously I listened to this shouting at the telly
31:12
and the radio a lot. But I listened to him and I thought, well, do you know what
31:16
There is people in hospital right now who when I stand at their bedside and say
31:22
look, the total you would have to pay is £26 an hour for somebody to come and help you three or four times a day
31:28
And they say no to me because the thought of paying any money for care is something they really are scared of
31:34
They can't physically do it. They can't emotionally do it. They don't see that they've got enough money in the bank
31:40
And so they say no to me. And then the next week I see them again. They're back in hospital and I see them again and they're back in hospital
31:46
So it's the cost of those hospital beds is something like 15 to 1700 pounds a night
31:52
and if we do take Andy Burnham's plan and he made the point to Laurie yesterday
31:58
he said if we do this properly and we save the money in the NHS
32:03
by doing it properly we'll dig that out have a listen to what he actually said
32:07
we take from Peter and we pay so you felt he got it
32:12
I do feel when I listen to him I feel like he really truly understands
32:16
and I'm so impressed with the baroness who's doing there and I've contributed
32:20
to her findings. I'm so impressed with her when she comes on, Mrs Casey
32:24
and she tells us all about what she's finding because she's really listening properly. She's a class act
32:28
isn't she? She really is. I guess the problem is politically, and
32:34
of course rhetoric does not have to accommodate reality. That's the whole point, is that when
32:40
they start saying they're putting up taxes and it's all going to go on X, Y, and Z
32:44
people who might initially see the wisdom in what you're describing and what Andy Burnham
32:48
is describing can be put off again can't they they can but i think we you know i'm in my i'm
32:54
just about to approach 50 so i'm looking at my retirement and i'm thinking well i've i've got
33:00
the expertise of being in the system and even i'm panicking and i'm looking at trust to protect my
33:05
property and all of that stuff but fundamentally we all pay for the nhs and we all enjoy free
33:10
doctor's appointments we all enjoy you know that the benefit of of low prescriptions and all of
33:15
and free hospital stays, but why shouldn't we enjoy the same when we are at our most vulnerable
33:23
And they manage... Yeah, of course I do. I know exactly what you mean. And they manage it in Scotland
33:29
Yeah, well, to a degree, yeah. To a degree. It's not all roses, so it's limited, but yeah
33:34
And that's probably about as close to perfection as Andy Burnham will be able to get
33:38
But I'm interested to think... I like to think of you watching the telly yesterday morning
33:41
and thinking here is a Prime Minister who actually knows about the world I work in
33:46
Yes. The world I work in. Yes, very much so. And it's so heartening because you go into this role to help people
33:52
You know, you don't wake up one morning and go, I'm going to be a social worker for the money
33:57
But, but, but when, you know, there was a glorious time 10, 15 years ago
34:02
when I was able to sit in front of families and provide that relief, the options that they all go
34:07
thank God someone's sat here that can offer a solution. I don't feel I can offer many solutions anymore
34:13
because the government purse and the local government purse is so squeezed
34:17
The way it's funded is terrible. And all this talk across the media, the NHS, the NHS
34:22
I'm so pleased to hear that narrative start to shift. Towards social care, social care
34:26
Towards social care. It needs to be. Because we're no longer the poor relative
34:30
We are in the gutter. We cannot provide any services at all, really
34:34
I'm going to draw upon my own ignorance here rather than accuse anybody else of it
34:39
Ask me anything. This is what I do for a living. No, it's not even that. It's that most people probably, until they have to
34:46
don't understand that absolute distinction between the two. They just think, oh, no, if mum can't look after herself anymore
34:54
for whatever reason, then the NHS steps in. But it doesn't work like that
34:58
It does not work like that. And do you know what? Again, going back to the poor, the NHS versus social care
35:04
there's so many government-led policy announcements and there's so much in the press
35:09
and people learn about what the NHS is like and the waiting list and all of this stuff. No one knows what social care is like because we're not telling people
35:16
We're not saying save your pennies and put some money aside or protect your assets. We're not saying, you know, carers have rights too
35:24
It's not out in the public domain. And so it's really when they meet someone like me, the first time they're having these conversations
35:30
Yeah. And that is, I mean, I'm glad they've got someone as informed and sensitive as you on the other side of the table or the other side of the hospital bed
35:39
And I hope that everybody has that privilege and pleasure. but for goodness, I mean, nobody can, well, actually, someone can always argue, so Roger's
35:46
been in touch. You've just told us there is enough money in the system, it's just spent in the wrong
35:50
places, so no government needs to put taxes up. No. Roger, what I told you is what the liars would
35:56
tell you, mate. Goodness me, I can't believe I have to explain this. What is it about people called
36:00
Roger, Derek and Nigel? We used to have a moratorium on them on this programme, because they were
36:04
almost always possessed of brains like this one. What people like Chris Philp and Nigel Farage will
36:10
tell you is that we don't need to put taxes up to look after people when they get unable to look after
36:16
themselves. All we need to do is to stop spending all the money on immigrants and
36:20
unemployed people. But they're lying to you because the numbers do not support
36:24
that perspective. It's not an opinion, it's counting. But you're so desperate to believe it
36:29
that you end up literally voting against having your own social care, Roger, state
36:36
funded. So good job I'm here to keep you on the straight and narrow. I've got the
36:40
Burnham Optimism Barometer results are in. I think we could probably chalk up Emma
36:44
as a high eight or nine on that. I don't know whether she actually voted or not
36:47
The results will be with us after this. James O'Brien on LBC
36:52
It is 10.53, and now I'm going to be bombarded for the rest of the programme
36:56
by people called Roger, Derek and Nigel, who aren't thick racists. So I'll apologise in advance to all of you, all right
37:02
But you must understand that there is a disproportionate number of people
37:06
who share your name who generally do fall into that category. But you're absolutely right
37:12
I stopped generalizing, James. And in fact, speaking of generalizing, social care splits more or less half and half, by the way
37:18
between the elderly and the not elderly who still need it. And Michelle picks up this point very powerfully
37:23
Social care does not just relate to old people There a significant proportion of younger people who require full social care The potential financial implications here are even worse My partner at the time was in
37:35
a very bad traffic accident 13 years ago. Since the accident, he has required 24-hour nursing care
37:42
I'm lucky enough to live in Scotland and I earn enough to pick up the shortfall for anything he
37:46
needs, such as four and a half grand wheelchairs, but not everyone is in my position. There are
37:52
people out there looking at 20 plus years of social care costs and i'm not hearing anyone
37:57
speak to them phone lines are open michelle i did try to address that but thank goodness you
38:03
were listening in order to um make that point clearer um but that is part of it as well if
38:09
you're going through that so i guess the difference is in terms of the fickle finger of fate
38:17
so you talk about a horrific road traffic accident and we're even less likely to think
38:24
we're ever going to be on that hook or that that's ever going to happen to us we do not live our
38:28
lives according to thinking it possible probable likely that we'll end up in that sort of situation
38:33
um but of course most of us don't live our lives thinking our house is going to burn down but we
38:38
still pay insurance the the difference is that we all know that we are going to get more fragile as
38:44
we get older or that the people we love are definitely going to. So that's probably why the conversation is skewed, but you're absolutely right to remind us that it shouldn't be
38:55
So you've got the shocking, shocking figures, and then you've got the likelihood of a politician
39:01
being able to do it when the Rogers of this world will be easily, so easily persuaded
39:05
that we don't need to raise taxes at all because all the money is going to people who don't
39:09
deserve it. And some people are so easily persuaded of that that they even get persuaded
39:14
of it when they hear someone explaining the effort that's been put
39:18
into persuading them. It's actually heartbreaking, isn't it, when you think about it. Talking of shocking figures, I've got
39:24
the results for the Burnham Optimism Barometer and for the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
39:28
6, 7th week in succession, it stands at a 9. I don't know, will this get mentioned at conference
39:34
do you think, Eleanor? Well, we've got to mention, you know, we've got to mention at the Liberal Democrats conference
39:40
you know, we've got me and Natasha saying something vaguely warm about Ed Davey
39:44
was such a rare moment in UK media discourse that it made the sort of an introductory montage
39:51
I think, actually, one of them mentioned me on stage last year
39:54
one of the Tories, I think it might actually have been... I can't remember who it was
39:58
It's kind of like a bit sad, really, because it means they're terminally online
40:02
and most of the people at Tory party conference won't be. So I think if you want to give me a shout-out
40:07
at the Reform UK conference, you're going to get a nice big boo. But I don't think at Tory conference most people there would know who I am
40:14
because they're not spending their life terminally online shouting at the moon
40:18
But I could be wrong. We'll find out perhaps later. Whether or not Andy Burnham references the Burnham Optimism Barometer
40:24
in his speech later this week, I would suggest currently is unlikely
40:28
Laura is in South Nutfield. How a cool name. Laura, what would you like to say
40:34
Oh, this conversation, it's just so personal and brings up so much
40:39
Thank you for tackling it because nobody else seems to want to
40:44
My mother had a fall. She fractured her hip and was one of the, well, she blocked bed
40:54
She was a blood blocker, I suppose. And then COVID hit and then they chucked her out of hospital knowing that she had COVID because they needed to clear bed. Yeah
41:06
So I had a lovely year and a half. I cared for my mother during COVID
41:14
Moving back to my childhood home, I was sleeping in the single bed with my mother next door
41:20
who couldn't manage stairs and everything. We'd have the house changed. And then it became fairly obvious that she needed more help
41:31
because I couldn't lift and carry her. I couldn't do lots of things for her
41:35
so for three years she went to a marvellous home in bex hill um who was simply marvelous they
41:45
they were a family run the staff had worked there for 20 or 30 years and it was a lovely lovely care
41:54
home she hated the fact that she was there because mentally she was absolutely fine she
42:04
wasn't suffering from Alzheimer's but physically her body was trapped, if you like
42:13
But mentally she was, I mean, we had political discussions all the time
42:19
Very irate discussions. You would have loved her. She would have talked to you about Brexit
42:25
And we actually had a member of the staff knocking on the door because we
42:30
were shouting at each other because I said, Mum, you can't believe
42:34
in Brexit, for God's sake. You know, and that was how we were
42:38
Keep the noise down. Yeah, keep the noise down. But the thing that
42:44
worried her, she was a single parent family. She brought up me and my twin brother
42:50
Jonathan on her own, without any help from the state, without any help
42:54
from my awful father. I'm sorry to... I'm going to correct you. Promise not to get cross with me
43:00
but you did she did she did get a lot of help from the state you you went to the nhs when you
43:05
were poorly did you go to private school or state school no i went to state school so that's help
43:10
from the state she got a lot of help because people say that and they and they think they
43:14
just mean unemployment benefits and that's why it's always a shock to discover that 53 percent
43:18
of people take more out of the pot in the course of their lifetimes than put into it so she got a
43:22
hell of a lot of help from the state she just never signed on yeah sorry it's important that i
43:28
clarify that. I don't feel comfortable doing it, but it's important to this conversation
43:32
No, no, no. No, that's fine. But she was one of these people if you work for
43:38
everything, you know, she... Except the NHS and her children's education, and the army, and the
43:44
roads, and the streetlights that come... I'm badgering, I'm badgering the witness
43:48
And so she, I presume, because we're short of time, didn't think it was
43:52
fair that she then had to pay for this while other people wouldn't have to. No, no, no, no, no
43:56
No, no, no, no. She I'm in all agreement for us paying more tax for..
44:02
Yes, that's what I mean. If everybody pays tax, she wouldn't have had to pay her own money
44:07
for the care that she received. Yeah, yeah. But for everybody to do this is going to help everybody
44:15
because the NHS needs this help. Yeah, that's a really good point
44:19
Because it's been blocked, the beds are blocked. You know, our social care system..
44:24
That's a brilliant point. That's a brilliant point. So it actually helps everybody, not just the people who will be receiving the social care
44:30
It makes everybody, it makes the NHS, it oils the wheels of the NHS. It changes the tyres
44:35
It increases the efficiency of the NHS in all sorts of ways
44:39
That's a really good point, which I think Andy Burnham will be well aware of
44:44
And it's a way to spike the guns of the people who will be chatting nonsense about this
44:48
It was dishonest Bob Jenrick who gave me a shout-out at the Conservative Party conference. I love the fact that you can remember that and I can't
44:53
I don know what that means probably just that I very forgetful It was back in 2024 when I think was he a Tory then I think he was a Tory then It 11 James O on LBC
45:05
It is five minutes after 11. And there is something on the horizon
45:10
that I am not sure how to deal with. I don't know if it's going to even happen in our lifetimes
45:16
I suppose that depends how lucky and healthy and how long we live
45:21
but there is an irresistible gravity to the reversal of Brexit I know some people still struggle with this
45:29
they've often got the names that I unfairly demonised in the last part of the programme
45:34
but I mean it's just daft look at what this country's become
45:38
we're going to be creating a £6 billion problem for the Chancellor
45:42
because immigration is coming down after years of everybody being persuaded that that's what they wanted
45:47
and you go back 10 years and 51 point something percent of the country
45:52
were persuaded to vote to become the first population in history to willingly and deliberately impose economic sanctions on itself
46:00
I don't even know what to think anymore, do you, when you see people saying, oh, no, it hasn't been done properly
46:05
or it was all the fault of the people that were busy pointing out
46:09
what a stupid thing to do it was. That's why it hasn't worked, because of all the people who tried to save the country
46:15
from this ridiculous act of self-harm, even after the vote had been cast
46:19
I mean, that is, you know, psychology, isn't it? It's neither politics nor economics
46:24
It's just psychology. I voted for something really, really stupid. But the reason why it's turned out to be stupid
46:29
is not the fault of the people that voted for it. It's the fault of the people who didn't
46:34
That's Brexit. I don't know if there's a German word for this or a psychological term, is there
46:39
But I voted for something stupid. Loads of people told me it was stupid. It has turned out to be stupid
46:44
But it's not the fault of the people that voted for it. it's the fault of the people who told us not to
46:49
it's the fault of the people who didn't and you can get on question time
46:52
still with that kind of thinking I voted for something stupid everyone said it wasn't stupid
46:59
I didn't pay any attention to them at all and now I realise it was stupid it's not my fault, it's their fault for making it stupid
47:05
it didn't need to be stupid it's there, it's what they do whether it's sort of professional grifters
47:12
claiming that Brexit has been somehow mishandled or hasn't been delivered, or we haven't received the full benefits of it
47:19
Could you tell me what the benefits are? No, don't be ridiculous. Of course I can't. But we haven't got them
47:24
You need to believe more. Quite extraordinary, really, isn't it? And again, I don't know whether it is a psychological..
47:31
Well, I know that it is a psychological condition, but I don't know if there's actually a name for it
47:38
And I don't know where the limit is either. Ten years? If after ten years you're still pretending to yourself
47:44
that you weren't mugged off in 2016, I can't help you. By all means, get cross with me. That's absolutely fine
47:51
But eventually, you're going to have to get cross with yourself because I didn't do this to the country, you did
47:56
And even if you're not prepared to take any responsibility for it yourself, but remember, everybody that didn't vote for it
48:01
was able to access exactly the same information that you should have been able to access
48:05
then just get cross with the people who told you. Get cross with the people who persuaded you
48:09
It was a good idea. Why am I wanging on about this again? Easy
48:14
Lord Khan, Sadiq Khan, the Mayor of London has urged Andy Burnham
48:18
and he broke very early on this partly because of course he has a political mandate
48:23
from one of the most cosmopolitan and successful cities in the history of humanity
48:27
and so is not tied to the Labour Party machinery in the way that other politicians
48:33
are and of course for much of his mayoralties he was by far
48:37
the most powerful Labour politician in the country in fact that's true until
48:41
Keir Starmer became Prime Minister So he has urged Andy Burnham to immediately start work on rejoining the European Union
48:49
And this is an obvious point. The bit I don't know how to deal with on the horizon when I talk about gravity and the inevitability of reversing some, if not all, of that ludicrous decision is how complicated it was to understand what was going to happen
49:04
do you remember how we depended upon people whether it was Kieran
49:09
who was a courier regularly delivering to the European Union who understood absolutely perfectly
49:17
what was going to happen and was routinely dismissed just simply saying this is my living
49:23
this is what we'll have to do at the moment I can drive from Birmingham to Berlin
49:28
with stop offs in I'm trying to think of other cities that begin with B
49:32
in continental Europe So I can drive from Birmingham to Berlin with stop-offs in Bonn, Barcelona
49:39
I know that you wouldn't necessarily go that way. And he could just do it unmolested
49:43
He could just fill up the van with his client's goods and he's off
49:47
Just as easily as you could go on holiday, he could do his job. And then, of course, the system changed
49:53
They all said that nothing would change and everything did. And a huge part of the problem here, of course, is that all of the people who said
50:00
everything's going to be fine, if not better, occupy some of the most senior positions in the UK media
50:07
So who's going to tell you the truth? Who's actually going to turn around and say
50:10
good Lord, I have no idea how we managed to get mugged off by that practice, by that process
50:15
but mugged off we were. Sorry, let's all start doing the heavy lifting
50:20
to get back in as soon as possible. And that's what Sadiq Khan has pointed out
50:24
the heavy lifting, the pitch rolling, explaining to the country the disbenefits
50:29
It's a dreadful word, Sadiq Khan. The disbenefits of being outside the European Union and the benefits of being part of this family
50:37
I mean, grounds for optimism? Andy Burnham has refused to rule out a pledge to rejoin the EU in a future Labour manifesto
50:47
Unlike Keir Starmer, Burnham has said he would like to see it happen in his lifetime
50:53
Tony Blair, who I don't think realises has become somebody whose endorsement is probably more negative than positive now
51:01
That's not the phone-in, and I could be wrong, and there's an awful lot to thank Sir Tony Blair for
51:06
during his premiership, his prime ministerial career, but subsequent to it, I don't know that he carries quite the heft
51:13
in this country that he thinks he does. He has urged the prime minister to declare an intention to return to the EU
51:21
but he's added, bless him, that that would involve the European Union
51:25
agreeing to significant reforms, which is why I wonder whether he realises
51:30
where he sits now in these kind of discourses so we've left
51:35
and you've absolutely accommodated our departure and you've cracked on perfectly happily
51:40
so it's a bit like you've left your wife because you're an idiot and you've said to your wife
51:45
alright, I'll come back but only if you do all my washing
51:48
and we can have chilli con carne every Tuesday night and your wife's like
51:52
I don't want you back or rather, if you want to come back you're the one that's going to need to change
51:58
You left me. I've got a new boyfriend now. Life is great
52:03
I've turned your stupid study into a little workout room. I've got a rowing machine and an exercise bike in there
52:09
And he's sitting there going, oh, well, I'll only come back if you wash my pants
52:13
and feed me pork scratchings while I'm watching Strictly Come Dancing. And she's going, mate, I don't want you back
52:20
I mean, listen, I loved you once. Perhaps I could love you again, but you got some work to do You got some work to do former darling before I even contemplate the possibility of Tony Blair there going alright well you going to have to change I want you to wear that blue
52:35
dress I like every Sunday and mate you don't get to tell them what changes they have
52:43
to make for you to come back that's what it looks like to me and I'm a little
52:47
bit nervous of going in hard on Tony Blair because he's still one of
52:51
those people I'd like to think will understand these issues better than I do but I don't think he does
52:56
so it's reopened fault lines within the Labour movement reports the Daily Telegraph
53:01
optimistically or rather wishing that this were true some of the unions don't like it
53:08
boss of Labour's Sharon Graham from Unite said that Labour must not undo the Brexit vote
53:13
we need to be sure that we're keeping to what the British people said the British people voted for Brexit
53:18
I think if we're going down a road of trying to undo that I think that will be seen as a problem
53:22
and I actually can see both points here. Thank you to everybody like Andy
53:28
who understands the important things that I want you to text me. Budapest, Bucharest, Belgrade, Bordeaux, Barcelona
53:35
he suggests. Thank you, Andy. What letter would have been the best one to choose
53:41
if I just wanted to be able to reel off a whole bunch of European cities
53:46
off the top of my head? What would have been the best letter to choose
53:51
because B wasn't great, was it? I still think B might have been the best
53:55
Do you ever do this? I do this sometimes, or I used to do this. I'm sleeping like a baby at the moment
53:59
but when I was struggling to sleep, when I had a bit of insomnia, one of the games I used to play
54:03
when I'd run through all the poems that I've learned off by heart is I'd try and..
54:07
I even thought about trying to turn this into some sort of game show, but the problem with game show ideas
54:11
is that it's almost certainly already been done. But you can have this one for nothing. If it gets commissioned
54:16
just give me a, you know, buy me a nice bottle of wine or something. You get the alphabet and you've got to name something with each letter of the alphabet
54:24
So, girls' names. You start with Anna, Bernadette, Colleen, Deidre. It's gone a bit Irish, hasn't it? That's nice
54:31
Elizabeth, Francesca, Gertrude, Hermione, Isabel, Jane, Karen, come on, Leanne, Leanne, Mary, Natalie
54:47
obviously things get a little bit tricky when you get to the weird ones like x and zed
54:53
ophelia you can tell eleanor did an english degree uh persephone there you go you can tell
54:58
i studied the classics uh q there you go q queenie queenie works that's usually a nickname queen is queen a thing queen you can have that's
55:11
the other thing as well at this point you start going through whether or not that's fair or not
55:14
and you find yourself not being nodded off to sleep, but you instead find yourself having sort of internal stewards' inquiries
55:21
about whether or not that's an actual girl's name. Rose or Rosie, Stephanie, Teresa, Ursula, Vera
55:29
and then it's over. It's also... God, he's one of the Greeks
55:35
Someone in Greece? Xerxes? No. It's X. I've skipped W. Wilhelmina. And then you've got X, Y, Z
55:43
Xanthe, Yolanda, Zara. So that was quite easy. I've forgotten what I'm talking about now
55:54
Oh, Brexit. I knew it had an X in it. So what city would have been best when I chose B
56:00
I don't know. It's a great game, and you can do it with anything. Brands of car, boys' names, obviously, and countries
56:07
You do it with countries, and you really do get stuck on a couple of those. But we got all the way through on the girls' names
56:11
Should we just do that for an hour? Shall we just... You ring in, I'll get stuck
56:15
You ring in, you say something like, Xerxes, James, or Zebedee, or something like Zaire
56:21
There you go. No, we should have a proper phone-in. I'm making a habit of this now
56:26
I'm going to hit the junction on time, and then I'll set the phone-in up afterwards. It's 11.16
56:32
James O'Brien on LBC. I believe I forgot about the Warrior Princess
56:36
Anyway, this is not a phone-in about whether it was a good idea or a bad idea to leave the European Union, OK
56:41
I fully accept that some people still think it was a good idea
56:45
and I acknowledge that you're even allowed to use scissors but it's a question about whether or not it would be good politics
56:52
now for anybody but we'll look at the Labour government we'll look at the Labour party because it is Sadiq Khan
56:57
calling for it and Andy Burnham who will make the decision on whether or not to deliver it
57:01
and that hopefully will make for a more nuanced conversation than the rather binary
57:07
question of whether or not and the rather obvious easily answered question of
57:11
whether or not it was a good idea to leave. Just because it was a ridiculous idea to leave
57:15
doesn't actually mean that it would be a good idea now, in 2026
57:20
to campaign to rejoin or simply to join a customs union. So some of the things that you might want to bear in mind
57:31
or take account of, the first would be the political damage it might do
57:36
so even though it hasn't gone well I wanted it and therefore you're taking away from me
57:44
something that I successfully secured you could I think imagine right wing newspapers
57:52
returning to the dizzy heights of dishonesty that they occupied during the referendum conversations
57:57
I don't know that immigration can get any more weaponised now especially as it's plummeting
58:01
but that idea that it might scupper the Labour Party project Andy Burnham wants to win a general election
58:09
in order to do X, Y and Z do you think, I suppose the question becomes
58:14
that pledging to rejoin the European Union would have that much political traction
58:21
I actually don't know and obviously I'm James O'Brexit but I actually don't know
58:27
I've oscillated on this if you listen to the programme regularly you'll know that I have
58:30
I've gone from thinking we need to wait a lot longer before we start contemplating the possibility of rejoining or undoing it
58:39
And then I've had moments where I've thought, look, the sooner we get on with it, the better. Andy Burnham, in the context of social care yesterday
58:44
was talking about ripping off plasters. And then another thing that you might want..
58:51
And I've ended up thinking, yeah, look, we're going to have to do it at some point, so do it now
58:54
But that, of course, ignores the political dimension, the potential politics of it
59:00
You also have an awful lot of people, whichever way they voted, whether they voted or not
59:05
You have an awful lot of people who, and I want to say this kindly
59:08
because it's not really your job to be across these sort of things, although it would be nice if you were before you voted
59:13
who still believe things that are ridiculous, who still believe that somehow we couldn't make laws
59:21
or that we couldn't do X or that we were limited from Y
59:25
or that there was some sort of democratic deficit involved in being in the European Union
59:29
Or the biggest, I think the daftest lie of all, No, lie's not fair, because these people don't realise
59:34
that they're just regurgitating things that aren't true. So Jim Ratcliffe did it last week
59:39
He was talking about how we joined a common market, we didn't join a political union
59:44
And Ted Heath was writing in 1973, the Prime Minister that took us into the European Union
59:49
or indeed the common market as it was then, literally writing at length about how this is much, much, much more than a common market
59:56
This is social and political union in all sorts of areas. So the biggest nonsense of all, you've got someone like Jim Ratcliffe, who's very good at chemistry and running chemical companies
1:00:08
If someone like that, outwardly quite clever, he still doesn't understand it
1:00:13
Doesn't stop journalists asking him his opinion on something that he's got no understanding of
1:00:17
You might as well ask me how to build a paint factory in the Wirral, but I wouldn't know where to start
1:00:22
But I can tell you that literally nobody paying attention thought in 1973 that we were simply joining a common market
1:00:29
we were joining a European Union. So that's a big problem. You've still got an awful lot of voters
1:00:34
who are forgivably or unforgivably ignorant. You can choose whether it was forgivable or unforgivable
1:00:42
that type of ignorance. And that's why I don't know. And you've got union opposition to it
1:00:48
Sharon Graham, who is a very interesting critic, actually, of some of the positions you might expect a Labour government to adopt
1:00:57
insisting that it would be a mistake. It would be a problem to try to undo what was done 10 years ago
1:01:04
So that's the question. I cannot ask you to leave at the door what you want to happen, right
1:01:11
Of course I can't. I've got a bit of an advantage here because I'm not quite..
1:01:17
Because I know what I want to happen, but I'm capable of conversing with myself to such a degree
1:01:22
that I can't simultaneously want it to happen and not know or not believe that now is the time to do it
1:01:30
I think I'm 52%, and if there's ever a time for the infernal ratio
1:01:34
it's surely now, I'm 52%, get on with it. 52%, set it up
1:01:39
52%, start explaining why it is such an obvious and necessary thing to do
1:01:44
And 48%, let's not go there again. Let's not re-litigate that hideous battle
1:01:54
Just because the people who were wrong won doesn't mean that anybody else wants to go back to war
1:01:59
Who do you agree with? Sadiq Khan? That the Prime Minister needs to start explaining to the public
1:02:05
the necessity of rejoining the European Union. He said yesterday, we've got to start the work now
1:02:11
You can't, a week before a general election, pull out of a hat this rabbit of a manifesto
1:02:16
and say we're going to rejoin in six weeks' time. The heavy lifting, the pitch rolling must be done now
1:02:22
Explain to the country the disbenefits of being outside of the European Union
1:02:27
and the benefits of being part of the family. And then you've got Sharon Graham
1:02:31
We can put Sharon Graham in the other corner who says, no, don't do that because even the very prospect or possibility of rejoining
1:02:38
would be a huge mistake. So you've got Sadiq Khan on one side
1:02:43
the most successful Labour politician of his generation, and then you've got Sharon Graham on the other
1:02:48
the leader of the biggest Labour-supporting trade union in the country. That goes to show, I think, very clearly why this is potentially problematic for Labour
1:02:57
Who do you agree with? Sadiq Khan, that we should do this? Or Sharon Graham, the leader of Unite the Union, that we categorically should not
1:03:05
And obviously on this programme, I want to know why. OK? 0345 6060 973 is the number you need
1:03:12
And I want to know why you think reopening this debate, because every time Andy Burnham says something evidence-based, demonstrably true
1:03:21
about European Union membership, someone like Jacob Rees-Mogg or Boris Johnson will pop up to tell you a lie
1:03:28
So that's what the debate is. Jacob Rees-Mogg and Boris Johnson, Daniel Hannan
1:03:33
either not understanding what they're talking about or being deliberately dishonest, versus kind of dull reality
1:03:39
as represented by Andy Burnham and his mates. But would you like to see that happen now
1:03:45
Colin is in Alton. Colin, what would you like to say? I would like to say that I don't normally
1:03:51
like to agree with Sadiq Khan but on this occasion I think he's got it absolutely right
1:03:56
We've got to start the manoeuvre now. You've got to work out whether the Europeans are going to
1:04:01
actually take us back and I think that to do that you've got to convince them that we actually made
1:04:08
a mistake in 2016 and there are thousands of people like me who voted for Brexit not because
1:04:17
we thought for one second that it would go through but simply to show that there was a voice
1:04:23
objecting to the way they were running what they wanted to see
1:04:28
and the United Federal States of America, of Europe and telling us everything we had to do
1:04:35
so I think we need to go back start now with humble pie
1:04:39
say we made a mistake and get back to those 250 million customers
1:04:43
but do you not believe anymore the nonsense that you believed in 2016
1:04:48
I didn't really listen to it that much. I just knew that what they..
1:04:52
But you just used that phrase, didn't you? You used that ridiculous phrase, the United..
1:04:56
I mean, it's so ridiculous you even forgot what you were saying for a moment. The United Federal States..
1:05:00
No, no, no, the United States of Europe. Yes, I mean, that's meaningless. Apart from, of course, Winston Churchill
1:05:05
who expressed a deep desire to see a United States of Europe within his lifetime
1:05:10
I suppose I'm asking politely whether or not people like you would still be susceptible to nonsense like that
1:05:16
if it all started again now? I think there are people like me
1:05:21
who think they made a mistake. Yeah. Whether they listened to the rules
1:05:25
or whether they didn't, I think we ought to go back and say it's better for Europe
1:05:32
and it's better for us. I think we didn't like, a lot of people like me
1:05:37
didn't like the way, the European Brussels, unaccountable way, they approached the whole thing
1:05:43
actually really was what Britain should be doing. We are all separate states all over the country
1:05:50
But it's not unaccountable. This is why I worry slightly that none of the things that you thought were true then
1:05:56
were true then and they're not true. It's never really unaccountable any more than a sort of civil service is unaccountable
1:06:04
The commission is there to do the bidding of the European Parliament, which is a profoundly democratic institution
1:06:10
And in a way, because we're on the same side here, oddly, in a way, this is my worry
1:06:15
is actually that although what you say has an ineluctable logic to it
1:06:19
of course we should rejoin, that the engines and the influences that pushed you in the opposite direction ten years ago
1:06:25
they haven't gone away, Colin. They're still here and they could start pushing again
1:06:29
Now you might see through it this time, but a lot of people wouldn't
1:06:33
And I don't know that we've got the national energy to go through it all again without a guarantee of success at the end
1:06:39
I think we should start. Yeah. We should acknowledge we made a mistake
1:06:44
And I think if you make a mistake, the best thing to do is set up, say you made a mistake, and see if you get the body of people behind you
1:06:52
And if there were another referendum, God forbid, but if there were, there's no question at all that they would vote to put us back in Europe
1:07:01
Well, I think, yeah, well, if you could prove that, then I'd give you the money myself
1:07:06
But the simple question of how many Collins are there out in the world
1:07:10
How many people are prepared to say, I made a mistake? and your rationale for it, your reasoning behind it, your explanation of it, your excuses for it
1:07:19
it don matter anymore It would simply If Colin is in a majority if there are lots and lots of Collins out there then actually Sadiq Khan is obviously correct The weight of public opinion is such that it becomes a no The problem we have
1:07:35
and despite being a member of the media, I feel this problem more keenly than the average
1:07:39
bear, the problem we have is public opinion. You know, all of the polling can say we're
1:07:45
in favour of this, we're in favour of that, but it won't necessarily translate into votes
1:07:49
in a putative referendum, or if the weight of public opinion is big enough, you wouldn't
1:07:53
need a referendum at all. So be more Colin. Helen's objecting to
1:07:59
Colin using the word we instead of he. I think he was speaking collectively about leave
1:08:03
voters. He wasn't including those of us who didn't vote to leave in
1:08:07
his ysis. It's half past eleven. The number you need to join this conversation about the wisdom
1:08:11
or otherwise of essentially re-litigating Brexit. Sadiq Khan calling for it. Major union leader cautioning
1:08:19
against it. Where are you on this question? And crucially, and Colin really rose to this challenge
1:08:25
why? 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need. It's half past 11, and Dominic Ellis has your headlines
1:08:34
James O'Brien on LBC. Six minutes after 12. Listen, I don't really do motoring topics on this programme, as you know
1:08:43
but the fact that UK diesel prices have just hit a record high, not only does it come about a year after I got rid of my diesel car
1:08:49
horribly late in the process, given the ULAs. But there's Donald Trump in action for you, lads
1:08:57
Well done, everybody. It's a little bit Brexity, isn't it, Donald Trump? How do you do that
1:09:01
How do you square? Well, it's not the fault of the war in the middle. It's probably Vladimir Zelensky's fault
1:09:06
that diesel is so expensive. It's nothing to do with the straight-hull moves
1:09:10
Anyway, it's open. I honestly don't know how Donald Trump supporters square reality with their carefully cultivated prejudices
1:09:18
And for a long time, the same was true of Brexit, to which we will return imminently
1:09:23
But before that, a quick heads up about what's coming up later in the programme. John Healy will be addressing Labour conference at 12
1:09:29
I'm going to take it live for two reasons. Number one, the obvious one
1:09:33
He's the Chancellor of the Exchequer and therefore the second most important speaker at conference
1:09:39
And number two, I'm going to go home early. No, I'm joking. Because it won't last a whole hour
1:09:44
Number two, we don't actually know. I mean, John Healy's not one of those politicians who you could draw or who you could do an impression of
1:09:52
Presuming that you're gifted enough to do a drawing of someone that becomes recognisable or indeed an impression of someone
1:09:58
Don't answer that by saying, well, James, what are you talking about? I can't do an impression of anyone. If you could do an impression of someone, I don't think yet you'd be able to do an impression of John Healy
1:10:06
I just don't think we've seen much of him. Therefore, I thought it might be helpful to take the speech
1:10:11
if not in its entirety, then certainly in its majority. We'll have a proper listen to that
1:10:18
And after that, Sheila Fogarty in the heist. Prime Minister Andy Burnham taking your calls on LBC
1:10:25
live from Liverpool with one of the city's most famous daughters, Sheila, soon-to-be Dame Fogarty
1:10:31
Well, unless she duffs him up, I suppose, today. I'm joking, she's not soon-to-be a dame
1:10:37
That's from 3pm today. So a couple of hours into Sheila's show, Andy Burnham, the Prime Minister, will sit down with her in Liverpool in order to take your calls
1:10:46
The number, of course, remains the same. I made a couple of deliberate mistakes today on the programme
1:10:51
I don't know how many of them you have noticed. I think I may have just said it was 26 minutes after 12 when it was approximately 36 minutes after 11
1:11:00
Well done if you noticed that. I'm not going to tell you what the other deliberate mistake was because there's a prize for anybody who manages to point it out
1:11:08
but it was in the last hour of the programme. So for the avoidance of doubt, the time now is 11.37
1:11:15
My apologies to anybody to whom I just sort of gave a minor fit of the heebie-jeebies
1:11:22
Fine lines are busy now. They weren't a minute ago, or they weren't before the news
1:11:27
This show, right, became something very different in the aftermath of Brexit
1:11:32
Not in the run-up to Brexit, but in the aftermath of Brexit, when we were able to set about the very important business
1:11:37
of pointing out after the referendum result had happened that none of the things promised by the prominent Brexit campaigners
1:11:45
would ever be delivered. That ancient interview with Farage went viral again last week
1:11:49
but the one you should really watch, the one that I find most fascinating
1:11:55
and you know I never do this, I don't do this, but I did get Jacob Rees-Mogg on the programme briefly
1:12:01
at some point before the treaty was signed, and I popped up on my feed the other day
1:12:09
more later on Wholesome Algorithms. It popped up again on my Facebook feed the other day
1:12:13
and the bilge he talks, the things, because now you can say, has that come true then
1:12:19
Has that thing he said would happen happened? You can go back over that interview
1:12:23
and the plausibility with which he speaks, that patrician drawl. I looked at the comments at the time
1:12:31
and I tried to look at some of the really negative comments, negative about me, comments on that
1:12:36
because I'm fascinated, as you know, by the psychology of people being conned
1:12:41
And I realised something, which I realised at the time, but it really merits repetition
1:12:47
That if you speak in this country, even in 2026, if you speak in a certain way
1:12:53
a certain type of voter will just trust you and believe you. If you turn up on the telly or on the radio and you sort of
1:12:58
well, what do you have to understand? Is this, that or the other? I mean, literally, he could sell you a bridge
1:13:05
Even I probably didn't fully clock at the time. What undiluted build she was talking
1:13:11
And yet now, of course, several years later, you can find out for yourself
1:13:15
So it's all great and hunky-dory that that Farage interview just refuses to go away
1:13:20
Because it was appallingly humiliating for him. But the Reese Mogg one is the one that matters most, actually
1:13:28
Highlighting the fact that Nigel Farage is a disingenuous grifter. That's not exactly man-bites-dog territory, is it
1:13:34
But Jacob Rees-Mogg, prominent Brexit campaigner, back in the days when some of these people would come on this programme
1:13:40
absolutely now, with the benefit of hindsight, absolutely jibber-jabbering his way to idiocy
1:13:48
And, of course, at the time, nobody noticed. And I mention all of that because this show
1:13:53
moved into a very different space in that period. And there's a strong chance that you wouldn't be listening to it now
1:14:00
if we hadn't done such amazing work during that period. Changed my life professionally and personally as well
1:14:07
But even I'm not sitting here now going, this will be a bastion for rejoining
1:14:13
This show will be at the vanguard of rejoining. Some people are
1:14:17
Some organisations are. And I'm a big fan of them. Best for Britain, I think, most obviously
1:14:23
does incredible work in this field. And I think their most recent polling showed that
1:14:27
if Labour were to stick this on the manifesto, they'd automatically hit 37% support
1:14:32
But I'm not there yet. I'm just not there yet, which I think is significant in the sense that just because you knew it was going to be stupid and just because you've been proved right doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to be in favour of trying to undo it
1:14:45
And that's why I don't know what your answer to the question of whether you think Labour should campaign on this
1:14:53
03456060973. Lewis is in Stevenage Lewis Actually Lewis just excuse me for a moment I just need to clear something up There isn a prize that was a figure of speech there no prize for pointing out the mistake i made at
1:15:05
approximately half past 10 this morning no prize at all stop clogging up my inbox i didn't think
1:15:09
anyone had noticed and now i've said that there was a prize everyone who did notice and didn't
1:15:13
bother messaging me about it is messaging me about it and i'm thinking oh dear there's no prize if
1:15:18
there was a prize i'd have already run out of prizes so well well done for spotting the deliberate
1:15:22
mistake that I made at heart, but anyway, no more of that, please
1:15:26
On with the show. Lewis is in Stevenage. Lewis, what would you like to say? Absolutely good to speak to you, James
1:15:31
I think fundamentally, with all this, so put it in context to, I was 13
1:15:36
in 2016 when the vote happened, and looking back at all of that now, it's
1:15:42
really wild, the rhetoric that's going on at the time, to say the least
1:15:47
It's amazing. So, I mean, your generation and beyond, of course, have never had any say whatsoever
1:15:54
in the mess that we're currently in. But people would, of course, respond to that by saying
1:15:58
well, you know, I was 13 in 1973. I never got the chance to vote against joining the common market
1:16:04
So can you see any hazard or peril in the idea of reopening this potential political Pandora's box
1:16:13
You know, I really do. I think there are some small things, but I think even the fact that the rhetoric with Burnham
1:16:19
is moving this far with streeting in the progress conference essentially i think giving him implicit
1:16:25
psychological permission to move this kind of thing forward and i think really the kind of
1:16:31
wider macro thing is labor preparing themselves for an electorate an age demographic of the
1:16:37
electorate of 2039 or 2029 and 2034 yeah and that would be in those i mean the the polling supports
1:16:45
you. It's not 100%. Nothing ever is. But there is, I mean, Brexit was always a graph that went up
1:16:52
support for it went up according to your age. The problem I posit here, and you're obviously
1:16:58
quite informed, so you'll be an exception to this, that nobody knows any different from that
1:17:06
generation. 13 is an interesting cutoff point. A politically conscious 13-year-old has probably
1:17:11
been able to track things that have got measurably worse. But your average 13-year-old, perhaps
1:17:17
is not going to have reached the age of 23 with a clear picture of what's gone
1:17:21
So would the motivation be there? I think combined with a... And I think this is a wider strategy
1:17:30
a more... Essentially a better political education in schools that I remember when I was in secondary school
1:17:36
was non-existent. I don't know about the case now. and that's the point isn't it and i mean because even if i'm right and your generation is nowhere
1:17:44
near as plugged into this issue as you happen to be that makes sadiq khan more right when he says
1:17:49
the business of explaining it now needs to needs to start now um you can't a week before a general
1:17:55
election pull out of a hat this rabbit of a manifesto and say we're going to rejoin in six
1:17:59
weeks time if thank you lewis if he started now if they all started now burnham rainer
1:18:05
you get them all on the case. If they started now, is there a possibility
1:18:12
this is a question for you, not for Lewis, it's a question for everybody, is there a possibility that it would have become a no-brainer
1:18:18
by the time of the next general election? If you just simply put all of your effort into calmly
1:18:22
explaining, well, we can't do that because we're not in the European Union, and we haven't got that because we're not in the European Union
1:18:28
I don't know, actually, because I don't know how honest John Healy is going to be in 15 minutes' time about the fact that he's £6 billion
1:18:33
pounds in the hole as a consequence of immigration, quote, successfully, end
1:18:37
quotes, being brought down at a rate of knots. I don't know whether
1:18:41
or not you could almost detoxify this. It would depend in part on what
1:18:45
Rupert Murdoch and the owners of the Daily Mail and the Daily Telegraph decided to do
1:18:50
If they wanted to gaslight and groom the population all over again with the sort of nonsenses
1:18:54
that used to pop up on this programme on a regular basis. And what was fascinating about that
1:18:58
the reason I mentioned it earlier, is that you only ever had to ask one question. It was incredible. Do you remember
1:19:03
the absolute certainty people had that the EU makes all our laws
1:19:08
And then you'd ask people to name a law that they were really unhappy about, and they couldn't
1:19:12
I mean, literally, they couldn't. It was a journey of discovery for me
1:19:16
I thought, well, there must be some arguments against it. It's why that interview with Rhys Mogg sits in my mind with some significance
1:19:22
because even the champions, even the big heroes of Brexit, were as ignorant as the most ignorant caller to a radio phone-in show
1:19:31
As soon as you actually ask them stuff, They either fell apart like a cheap suit, or if they were sitting in the studio in an expensive suit
1:19:37
they just started saying things that have been rendered utterly ridiculous by subsequent reality
1:19:43
So is that a reason to be wary of doing it all again
1:19:48
It's 11.45. James O'Brien on LBC. It's 11.48, you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:19:57
I guess the reason I'm being a little bit more self-referential than usual is because we have some ownership of Brexit on this programme
1:20:04
It was a big, big thing for us. And, you know, no one likes I told you shows or anything like that
1:20:11
But I think it proves how interesting this question is. The fact that I'm not 100% yes, yes, Sadiq Khan's right
1:20:18
Let's definitely start doing the heavy lifting now. I can see negatives. Not least, of course, as David points out
1:20:24
I don't think the EU would have us back. Well, Farage is still around British politics. That is a very real risk, of course, that you start rebuilding a house, even as the arsonist is within reach of taking over the house
1:20:40
So why would you do that if the arsonist is still in the vicinity
1:20:44
And as James says, the reality is the problem. The reality is the problem
1:20:48
The Brexiters won by promising unicorns. If we go through it all again, they'll claim that the unicorns still exist, but we can only have them if Farage is prime minister. and
1:20:57
Fotis simply says yes it is the right time to open the conversation
1:21:04
Andrew points out the one thing that has happened since we left or one of the things that has happened since we left
1:21:09
is that the Russians and Trump's treachery have opened a lot of eyes
1:21:13
have they? I hope so I hope so Claire Zimbire, how appropriate
1:21:18
have you noticed anything missing? yes, funnily enough something, you know, sort of stitches and stuff like that
1:21:24
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I know where it is. I think I know where it is. No, I'm going to tell you on it
1:21:30
Go on, what made you pick up the phone? Anyway, yeah, well, big fan. Thank you for all you do
1:21:35
Anyway, yes, I'm just going to sort of say from the EU point of view
1:21:39
not that I can speak for the whole of the EU, but generally there was a political show on last night I was listening to
1:21:45
Yeah. And the UK coming back into the EU isn't a great, you know
1:21:49
priority on the discussion, but it did come up. And what they were saying is, until there's a consensus with all political parties that could potentially be the next government, whether it's Andy Burnham's or not, there's just no way on this earth that they would start a real serious negotiation if they think that, God forbid, there'd be a Farage Prime Minister or the other one ever coming into..
1:22:14
Yeah, that's the one. I didn't think he meant Ed Davy. Either of those, I do forget her, but anyway
1:22:20
If either of those two were to come into power, that would just you know unfortunately you seen as a bit of a bipolar mad as a box of frogs kind of case One minute you you know you want to yeah we really want you back in
1:22:37
The next minute, oh my God, if there's that option coming in, that awful negotiation
1:22:41
Because it's a huge palaver for them as well. You know, they've had to rewrite things and recalibrate things and read
1:22:48
I don't know we're near as much as, but they've lost trade as well, of course, with us. Absolutely
1:22:52
Both as an import and an export market. Well, they'd love it for the UK to come back. They'd love it
1:22:56
But not if there's a chance of us setting fire to the treaty again four or five years down the line
1:23:02
There it is. So why on earth would you sign a treaty with firefighters
1:23:06
when they could be replaced by an arsonist in the next electoral cycle
1:23:11
Yeah. If you did a step-by-step scenario, like Canada or something like that
1:23:17
then, you know, okay, that could open a door and it doesn't absolutely set on fire everything
1:23:21
and knowing that if Farage or Badenov ever got back in, it would be on hold or whatever
1:23:29
Yes. But, you know, the full-on EU, I mean, obviously, I mean, everyone in
1:23:34
well, not everyone in Europe, but most people in Europe would be pro it
1:23:38
Oh, of course. I mean, Le Pen and Bardella may not be quite so. But they're not talking about taking France out themselves anymore
1:23:44
So, I mean, that is actually one Brexit benefit, even as fascism is on the rise across continental Europe
1:23:50
but one Brexit benefit is that none of them are talking about leaving the European Union anymore
1:23:54
whereas before we did it, of course, they all were. You remind me of the time that Nigel Farage insisted that the Front National
1:24:01
was far too toxic for him to ever break bread with or do business with
1:24:06
and then look who popped up on stage at the party conference this year, but the great white hope of the Front National, or whatever they call themselves this week
1:24:15
Yes, in total, really, people, you know the French system is for the presidency
1:24:22
the second round is always one person against a second person. If either, well, it's going to be Le Pen rather than Bardella gets through to the second round
1:24:30
it's still the case that people will vote against them. Well, until they don't. You're a more optimistic human being than I am, but I don't, I mean, until they don't
1:24:39
And that's one of the things that I think maybe slightly softens the message that you're delivering
1:24:45
If you are looking at it from the European Union interest, then us coming back is something they might accelerate or they might be a little bit more open to
1:24:54
because of what it says, poor encourage, as they say in your part of the world
1:24:59
because it would actually make anyone thinking of campaigning in the future
1:25:03
to take another country out of the European Union. and you've got this, you know, thing hanging over them
1:25:09
we'd be like Banquo's ghost, wouldn't we, at the feast, going, are you sure? This is a good idea
1:25:13
We lasted 15 years, and then we went back with our tail between our legs, because it's a stupid thing to do in the first place
1:25:19
But yeah, if the prospect of it being undone remains electorally likely
1:25:24
then you can see that the appetite of our former partners will probably not be as big as ours to rejoin
1:25:31
Claire, lovely stuff, thank you. Jennifer is in Penrith. Jennifer, what would you like to say? Well, I didn't vote for Brexit the first time
1:25:40
I was an avid anti-Brexit person, but I wouldn't vote now to go back
1:25:45
unless there was some real calculation from our government on how this would affect us
1:25:51
I would want to see them approach the European Union on some key issues that made people vote to leave last time
1:25:58
You're Tony Blair. This is Tony Blair's argument. So you're going to tell them what they've got to do for us to come back
1:26:04
I would love them to take us back, but I just worry that the damage that's been done
1:26:09
by us leaving in the first place would be subject to some quite harsh consequence
1:26:14
and I wouldn't blame them. I don't think so. I mean, you mean like almost punishment
1:26:19
for having the audacity to leave in the first place. I honestly don't think so
1:26:24
And you were just talking before about, you know, the message that it was sent to other European countries
1:26:28
wouldn't it? You know, don't consider doing this, because look, I'm not saying they would. I'm just saying that those are the answers that I would want
1:26:34
if I was to vote to go back in now. Because I think there'd be a real chance of some civil unrest in our own country
1:26:40
if these things weren't properly explained to the people that voted to leave the first time
1:26:45
And like you just mentioned with one of your other callers, the people that would be voting this time are a whole other generation of people
1:26:50
that didn't have the experience of the Brexit vote last time and the rhetoric that was being pushed by David Cameron
1:26:58
about the excessive migration and the European Court of Human Rights and we're a small country and we can't afford this
1:27:04
and nor can we tolerate the numbers coming in. That will be what will be in the minds of their parents
1:27:09
We don't teach politics to any depth in school. And so, you know, the government currently
1:27:16
would have to reach out to those young voters, not on mainstream media, because young voters don't watch it
1:27:21
but on social media and those channels that really lean into our youth
1:27:25
And they'd have to explain it to them in a way that, you know, benefits them
1:27:29
You know, it opens things up for you in terms of study and travel and all those things
1:27:35
employment, that we've removed from them by leaving in the first place
1:27:39
So I think there's got to be some really detailed laying out over a period of time of what they will benefit from
1:27:46
in order for people to vote return. I think otherwise they're just voting off of their
1:27:50
maybe the votes of their parents or grandparents. That's a really good point
1:27:55
In fact, I mean, you've set my pendulum swinging in the course of a single conversation here
1:28:00
Well, no, I love that. That's what pendulums are for. A clock doesn't work if the pendulum doesn't swing
1:28:05
Because I think you're definitely right about the second bit. It might be part of the reason why Andy Burnham is talking about
1:28:12
setting up a new centre to counter disinformation, especially from Russia, in that online space
1:28:18
No prizes for guessing who's spoken out against stopping Russia from influencing UK politics dishonestly
1:28:25
It's the leader of the party that has someone currently in jail for accepting bribes for talking up Russian talking points
1:28:32
But the bit where the pendulum swung the other way was when you were talking initially about the prospect of them wanting to punish us
1:28:40
It's a little bit like the original point, isn't it, about they wouldn't want us back until we were really committed to going back
1:28:47
Yeah, and I think that's absolutely right for them. We were so hasty in leaving
1:28:52
Instead of just negotiating what our issues were with being in the EU
1:28:56
and coming out with a better deal for our apparently small island
1:28:59
Now you've sent it swinging again because there wasn't a better deal. But this is actually, unintentionally
1:29:05
one of the reasons why I'm not persuaded that reopening this conversation is a good idea
1:29:09
So, again, I'm going to sound... I don't want to sound patronising. I'll try not to
1:29:14
But there was no better deal. We literally... We had all of the vetoes
1:29:18
We had all of the exemptions. We didn't... We weren't in the single currency
1:29:22
We had by far the best deal of any member state. And then David Cameron made the fatal error
1:29:27
of pretending that he would be able to go there and get something else unspecified
1:29:31
And then very cowardly resigned to not see the fruits of his labour through
1:29:36
which can leave the problem for somebody else. I remember the David Cameron resignation speech very well
1:29:41
and being very angered that you've set the country up to believe that Brexit was the best thing for us
1:29:47
And I really believe that he played on the race machine. Well, he campaigned against it, Jennifer
1:29:52
He did campaign against it, Cameron. I don't think so No he did mate
1:29:58
Not with any kind of erasity Well, he campaigned harder than Jeremy Corbyn did, who was leading the Labour Party at the time
1:30:04
What he couldn't do, of course, and this is why I find Cameron's position unforgivable
1:30:09
is acknowledge that an awful lot of things that voters were blaming on European Union membership
1:30:13
were actually a direct consequence of austerity and his own policies. But, yeah, two things there that you would need to pop these balloons
1:30:21
The idea that we didn't have the best available deal back then, we probably wouldn't be able to get the same one now
1:30:27
and the second thing being the misinformation that now dominates discourse online in this country
1:30:33
And in case there was any doubt at all about who I'm talking about when I say that only one senior political figure has condemned
1:30:40
I'm going to say this again, a government, the British government, plans to set up a new unit to tackle Russian misinformation
1:30:48
The British government is setting up a new unit to tackle Russian misinformation online
1:30:53
and Nigel Farage is unhappy about it. the leader of a party who's leader in Wales
1:30:59
is currently in jail for accepting bribes to promote Russian talking points
1:31:04
He's got some nerve, hasn't he? Essentially inviting you to... Why on earth would Nigel Farage be opposed to plans to tackle Russian disinformation
1:31:14
Answers on a postcard, please, while I talk to Paul, who's in Selby. Paul, what do you reckon
1:31:18
Hi, James. Hello. Do you know, I believe that a referendum should never have been held
1:31:24
I believe that the question is just too big and complicated to be put to people
1:31:29
Well, it's a bit late now, mate. No, but for the next time as well
1:31:34
Yeah. It should be a constant question. They should always be asking, are we better in and out
1:31:39
But it should only be asked to the people with the information. You need to have a panel of experts from lawyers to doctors
1:31:46
Or just the parliament. Well, the problem with a parliament is... It shifts
1:31:52
It shifts, yeah. And you don't know what's going on behind the scenes. And even if you got the parliament to say, yeah, this is correct
1:31:59
you don't have all the time the vast majority of the population
1:32:03
that voted for that parliament. No, you're right, actually. I think a parliament was a silly suggestion
1:32:08
I can't believe you made it. The problem is, as you point out, with what you suggest
1:32:15
is that people like Farage, and you can't talk about the idiocy of leaving the European Union, sadly
1:32:19
without talking about him, is that he will poo-poo any such panel
1:32:23
You know, he will go after bishops, he'll go after the police, he'll go after soldiers, he'll go after anybody who's offering up reality
1:32:30
And he'll even go after a British government seeking to tackle Russian disinformation
1:32:34
because telling public things that aren't true is his career. So if Parliament is vulnerable to the shifting majority
1:32:44
then any panel whatsoever with a Prime Minister who's a liar, that panel is going to be dismantled in a nanosecond anyway
1:32:52
so I don't know that it is necessarily better than leaving it to Parliament to decide
1:32:58
I mean I guess but asking a question to people who are not experts on the subject
1:33:03
is never going to be the best idea James. No and then we're back to what the BBC did during the referendum
1:33:10
and invited people on who were not experts on the subject to argue with the experts as if they somehow were 50-50 equal and opposite forces
1:33:18
Paul, thank you. I love Selby. It's a lovely part of the world if you've never been there
1:33:22
We are waiting for John Healy, the Chancellor, to take to the stage at the Labour Party conference in Liverpool
1:33:29
the second most significant speech of the week, of course. When's Andy Burnham? When's Andy Burnham due to speak
1:33:35
Do we know? Tomorrow afternoon, so we won't get to take that one live
1:33:39
And I'm taking John Healy live, partly because I'm interested in what he has to say and partly because I'm interested in John Healy
1:33:44
He's not one of those politicians that I have a kind of... It doesn't take up much space in my mental Rolodex
1:33:50
So I know who Ed Miliband is, what he stands for, ditto
1:33:55
Increasingly, Andy Burnham, he kind of knew roughly where Angela Rayner sits on things, Rachel Reeves
1:34:01
John Healy, despite doing a pretty good job at defence, was not... Anyway, that's why
1:34:07
That's why we're going to cross live. In fact, let's do it now
1:34:11
Here comes the Chancellor, not the hot stepper. Thank you
1:34:46
Now, conference, I have to be honest, I'm no first-time delegate. My first Labour conference was in 1986, 40 years ago in Blackpool
1:35:02
And back then, I had hair. Back then, Neil Kinnett was leader
1:35:08
He was calling for sanctions on apartheid South Africa. John Smith was calling for an industrial strategy to deal with the Tory slump
1:35:18
John Prescott was just arguing. But it was a vibrant time. It was a vibrant time, and I still get that very special energy
1:35:28
that comes when the Labour movement gets together at conference. So, conference, it is the privilege of my life
1:35:37
to stand before you today as Labour's Chancellor of the Exchequer. And to have this man as our leader, our Prime Minister
1:35:55
as he likes to remind us, the first ever cooperative Prime Minister of this country
1:36:00
Andy, you have the vision you have the determination
1:36:10
and you have the plan to get things done, to give people hope again
1:36:14
and frankly anyone who can do the Great North Run in under two hours just deserves respect
1:36:20
I do have to say though you're still wrong about the best pub snack and
1:36:26
and I I know Manchester's a great city, just like Liverpool is a great city, but give me Rotherham any day of the week
1:36:39
Conference, before I go any further, I want to pay tribute to our former Chancellor, Rachel Reeves
1:36:53
She brought to this country financial discipline. She delivered two Labour budgets that mean we're cutting NHS waiting lists and we're lifting half a million children out of poverty
1:37:07
And after 800 years, she will always be recognised as this country's first ever female chancellor
1:37:14
And to Keir Starmer he took on this party as our leader He took us from one of our worst ever defeats to one of our biggest ever victories And then as Prime Minister he rebuilt Britain respect and international reputation
1:37:39
especially standing up to Russia in defence of Ukraine. On behalf of us all, we thank you, Keir
1:37:49
and you know as politicians we can only ever be as good as the people who work with us
1:37:55
and work behind us so i can't tell you how fortunate i count myself to have this talented
1:38:03
team of treasury ministers emma and lucy torston james dan and david and a small dedicated team
1:38:13
who work with me in the constituency office. To you all, I say a huge thank you
1:38:25
And finally, conferences, someone else I want to thank. When I say Labour is my family
1:38:33
I mean it literally. And my guide, my inspiration, my blessing, my wife, Jackie
1:38:43
Jackie is a third generation Labour activist
1:38:53
You know her Grandma Jones kept Labour meetings running throughout the Second World War in
1:38:58
Stoke-on-Trent, even during the bombing raids. And Jackie worked in Labour HQ, I worked for the MSF Union, we met at a union conference
1:39:08
And within two weeks, we were engaged. And she's been by my side ever since
1:39:19
Jackie, thank you. Conference, today I want to talk about the politics of hope
1:39:33
our belief in a better day, our conviction, that committed citizens can change the world
1:39:41
No matter how hard the task, how daunting the odds, this is our Labour politics. That hope
1:39:48
that is earned, earned through fiscal discipline, through good work and through strong industries
1:39:55
So I want to tell you how we'll bring back hope. How we'll get Britain growing with hope for our young people
1:40:03
with good work and good jobs and a new age of industrialization
1:40:08
Because Conference, I believe in Britain and we believe in Britain. In Conference, I'm a proud optimist. I'm also a proud Yorkshireman representing a former
1:40:26
Coalfield community. And like many in our area, I have a miner's lamp on my shelf at home
1:40:34
And those miners didn't just use their lamps to light their own steps, they shone them to
1:40:41
help others. A symbol of solidarity, a symbol of hope, no matter what the darkness, there's
1:40:49
always light at the end of the tunnel. And you know, the same goes now for Britain's
1:40:55
future. Why? Because this country has such resilience, such strengths, still such greatness
1:41:04
You know, we're home to nearly half the most innovative companies in Europe. We're
1:41:11
world leaders in life sciences, in defence tech, in AI. Our financial services, led by
1:41:17
London, are some of the best in the world. And our theatre, our TV shows, our fashion
1:41:24
Our music has treasured the world over and we have the best people
1:41:30
The veterans of the Royal British Legion at Remembrance. The winners of the Daily Mirror's Pride of Britain awards
1:41:38
The Lifeboat volunteers of the RNLI, risking their own lives to save others in danger on
1:41:44
the sea. This is the quiet patriotism that makes Britain great
1:42:01
So despite everything that we face, there are many reasons for optimism
1:42:07
New leadership, new confidence and new hope. And confidence, much as I believe in Britain, I also believe in Labour
1:42:19
in what we can achieve by the strength of common endeavour. I was part of the Labour government in 1997
1:42:29
that rebuilt Britain after 18 years of Tory failure, leaving the country fairer
1:42:36
giving the next generation a better start in life, from the day they're born in the NHS
1:42:41
to the schools they go to, to the first job they get. And Labour in power, at our best
1:42:49
has always been about building institutions that we pass on to the next generation
1:42:56
The NHS, NATO, the Open University, the National Moon and Wage, the Good Friday Agreement
1:43:09
In just the last two years look at what we've achieved as a Labour government. Railways coming
1:43:14
back into public hands. New rights for renters, new rights at work, steel, British steel saved
1:43:21
And look at how we acted in Andy's first week as Prime Minister. We acted on the cost of living
1:43:27
pressures. We cut VAT from electricity bills. We capped bus fares at £2. We reduced business rates
1:43:35
on pubs, clubs and music venues to give people just a bit of breathing space. A bit of breathing
1:43:43
space today and hope for tomorrow. And confidence, if we don't talk up Labour's actions, no one else will
1:43:58
So here's my first challenge to you as your Labour Chancellor. Be confident in who we are
1:44:06
Be confident in our past. Be confident in our future. Let's tell the story of how Labour can deliver change, how we can change lives and how we
1:44:16
can change this country. Let's tell people what we've done, what we're doing and what we will go on together to do
1:44:30
Labour creating hope again. Now, I first worked in the Treasury under Gordon Brown in the late 90s and noughties
1:44:44
It was new Labour, new promise then. And Gordon was and is an inspiration
1:44:50
His determination, his drive, his block cap emails in the middle of the night. And I joined him in 1999 And one of my first duties was to join him at Labour Party conference in Bournemouth that year
1:45:06
He'd been at the IMF. He flew in overnight and arrived just before he was due to give his conference speech
1:45:13
So I was in this small room with this big group of Gordon's top aides
1:45:19
I was the new boy. There were big names there. Ed Miliband was there. Douglas Alexander was there
1:45:23
Ed Balls was there. And suddenly, Gordon was just about to go on
1:45:28
and soon I said, Gordon needs a red tie. And the only person in the room wearing a red tie was me
1:45:39
So in 1999 at Bournemouth, Gordon made his speech as Chancellor with my tie
1:45:50
I did get it back. I did get it back. He signed it, and I've never worn it since
1:45:57
Until today. Now, I know the 90s is having a bit of a revival
1:46:14
To Angela's excitement, Oasis are going back on tour. To Angela's joy, Gladiators back on Saturday night TV
1:46:23
But I have to level with you, conference. The money New Labour had in the 90s is simply not there now
1:46:32
You know, economic growth under Gordon was more than double the Tory years that followed
1:46:38
And Britain has it harder now. We had 14 years of flatlining Tory growth and living standards
1:46:46
When Cameron's austerity gutted our public services. When Johnson's Brexit hammered our exports
1:46:53
and Truss's mini-budget crashed the economy and collapsed confidence in Britain's fiscal strength
1:47:02
They lost control of Britain's finances. They left a legacy of sky-high debt costs
1:47:08
for families and for government. And yet, Kamik Badenoch, her new Chancellor
1:47:15
is the very minister that helped Truss write that mini-budget. And even now, he still claims
1:47:21
there were lots of good things in it. So I say to them
1:47:28
your reckless actions are still causing pain to people today. You left crumbling public services
1:47:35
and you left Britain spending more on debt, more on debt than the Home Office
1:47:42
Defence and Justice put together. And people won't forget. People won't forgive
1:47:50
the cost of the nation's debt is not just a number in a Chancellor's budget
1:47:56
it's the money that we can't spend on the NHS, on schools, on housing, on social care
1:48:03
on policing our streets, on controlling our borders on defending our country
1:48:08
and I tell you these levels of debt an assault on our common sense
1:48:15
they're an affront to our values And that's why the Prime Minister and I are in lockstep
1:48:20
That we will meet the fiscal rules. That we will maintain control of Britain's finances
1:48:28
And, you know, it's not just the debt that the Tories have left us
1:48:33
Over the decades, as Andy has argued, this country has seen political powers centralised
1:48:40
economic control privatised, Britain de-industrialised. And the result? Too many people today feel that Britain hasn't been working for them
1:48:52
for their family and for their area. And we also know how worried people are about the
1:48:58
cost of living, the insecurity of work, the cost of business. And they're worried about
1:49:03
the world. And they're right. Because the worldwide economic shocks, conflicts, trade
1:49:09
tensions are felt hard here at home from the prices at the pump to the cost of
1:49:15
them monthly mortgage payments. The conference you know what these times demand of us a greater resolve a greater determination and a greater hope
1:49:28
to build a more resilient country and remember conference we are Labour. It was
1:49:36
It was Labour that stepped up to clear the slums and build the council houses during the
1:49:41
Great Depression. It was Labour that stepped up to build NATO and the NHS after the war
1:49:48
It was Labour that stepped up to lead the world through the global financial crisis
1:49:53
When times are tough, we step up. And now, Conference, we're stepping up again with a plan for Britain, with our international
1:50:09
leadership and with our Labour values. That is the Labour I know
1:50:13
That is the Labour I love. So let me tell you how we'll do it
1:50:24
I will bring fresh hope to Britain, built on the rock of fiscal discipline, built on
1:50:29
a growing economy with good work and jobs in more places, built on a new age of industrialisation
1:50:37
On day one, as Chancellor, I said my first duty is fiscal discipline, and I'll tell
1:50:43
you why. It underwrites every promise this government makes on growth, on jobs, on national security
1:50:53
and on public services. We can't succeed without it. And that's why the Prime Minister and I are united in meeting the fiscal rules, balancing
1:51:04
the books with a buffer against uncertainty, controlling borrowing to bring down inflation
1:51:11
and reducing long-term pressures on our finances. And, Conference, that commitment is so important
1:51:20
There is nothing progressive about losing control, because it's always working people
1:51:25
who pay for it. And conference, just look at who offers the opposite
1:51:32
It's not just the shadow chancellor, but the Reform UK, dodgy donors, fantasy funding behind
1:51:39
every plan, and Nigel Farage. He wants you to think he's a man of the people, but when it comes to the economy, he's Liz
1:51:48
trust with a Bitcoin account. That's not my politics
1:52:01
That's not our politics. And so through the core of the budget I deliver a month today will be fiscal discipline
1:52:09
To give families and businesses a bit of breathing space. To drive good growth and jobs in more places
1:52:17
and to write a new chapter of hope for Britain's future. Conference that miner lamp on my shelf at home in Rotherham came from Cortonwood Colliery the pit where the miners strike started where Thatcher crusade against coal communities started
1:52:41
And our last pit in Silverwood was closed by the Tories in 1994
1:52:46
The jobs went away, hope and opportunity went too. You know, one in three men were unemployed
1:52:54
So when I was first elected, I had as my first top three priorities, jobs, jobs, jobs
1:53:05
And now as then, I still have that burning determination. Good work, good jobs, Britain, working again
1:53:24
This party, our party, was founded by workers for working people. The rhythms of work, the value of work, the pride that good work brings
1:53:36
That's been Labour's watchword for more than 100 years. In the 30s, it drove the Jarrow Crusade to London
1:53:45
In the 40s, it drove the Attlee government to build full employment
1:53:49
And in the 90s, it drove Gordon and Tony to launch the New Deal for young people
1:53:54
getting them off benefits and into work for the first time. Their futures transformed and making their contribution to the future of the country
1:54:07
Now, Conference, we all remember our first job. Mine was at the Milburn Arms in North Yorkshire
1:54:16
I washed pots and glasses. I worked for John and Betty Young
1:54:22
They worked me hard, but fair. And that job taught me the basics, about turning up on time, about getting on with others, about respecting those with more experience
1:54:34
It also taught me the glory of a hand-pulled pint. But every person, every young person, should know the pride of getting their first job and taking home their first paycheck
1:54:47
And while I learnt about work at the Milburn Arms, it's Alan Milburn's work now for government
1:54:55
that lays bare the scale of the challenge young people face once again today
1:55:02
You know, after COVID and before the election, the Tories let the number of young people
1:55:07
in this country, not in employment, in education or training, rise to nearly one million
1:55:14
Two thirds have never worked. Potential wasted, ambition frustrated, opportunity closed. Signed off, written off. And I know it's tough for young people today
1:55:31
Some find it hard to face the world and I hear the fear in their mums and dads
1:55:36
voices when they talk about their kids futures, when they talk about the dark
1:55:40
forces on the internet. And our social security system must always be there for those who can
1:55:47
never work. But for everyone else, benefits should be a bridge to work, to wider participation
1:55:55
to a better life, not a trap that people can't escape. And conference, it is simply not progressive
1:56:10
It's not progressive to allow a bigger and bigger benefits bill and a system which offers an income but doesn't offer a future
1:56:21
So once again, as a Labour government, it falls to us to act
1:56:27
And this is more than just an economic must. This is a moral duty
1:56:31
And, Conference, I refuse to write off a million young people like the Tories have done
1:56:40
You know, when some people see a million youngsters with no work and no training, they see despair
1:56:56
I see hope. I see the future workforce of a re-industrialized Britain, future business founders, future union stewards, future homeowners
1:57:08
I see a generation born this century, digital natives, whip smart, questioning, ambitious, brave
1:57:19
I see the best asset we have in Britain, in our young people
1:57:23
And I believe this generation has the potential to be a great generation
1:57:27
And I believe we can help this generation move from generation jeopardy to generation hope
1:57:38
And let me tell you about an apprentice pipe fitter called Stee
1:57:50
I met him on Saturday when I went with Andy Burnham and Mayor Steve Rotherham
1:57:55
on the first newly built ferry across the Mersey in 60 years
1:58:01
Stee helped build it. Built here on the Mersey at Birkenhead. and I asked him what advice he would give to a younger brother or sister about apprenticeships
1:58:12
and he said this, just go for it. Just go for it, he said, because you're earning and learning at the same time
1:58:19
and you can take these skills anywhere in the world. Well, conference, I'm happy to say that Steve is here today
1:58:27
with some of those other apprentices
1:58:39
150 at the Camel Yared Laird Yard that helped Bray build that ferry
1:58:45
Lads, it's great to see you today. Thanks for joining us and thanks for what you're doing
1:58:49
for this great city. So today I want to announce a down payment on Alan Milburn's work
1:59:04
A local apprenticeship service expanded to more places, led by mayors, targeted at these young people
1:59:14
Delivering thousands more apprenticeships for these young people. With local teams, a bit like football scouts for apprenticeships
1:59:22
of local teams who will go to local firms that have never taken on a trainee and say
1:59:28
we'll help you do it. They'll go to the youngsters who've been out of work and say, we've got a place for you
1:59:36
Led by mayors, because it's the mayor that knows their areas best
1:59:41
They know which firms are hiring, they know which colleges are delivering
1:59:45
and they know which estates have been left behind. That's what devolution means
1:59:52
And we had planned to start in a few areas. Now every mayor will have the chance to do it
1:59:59
backed by an extra £100 million, fully funded by savings from the DWP
2:00:16
Because conference, the best thing we can offer a young person isn't a benefit payment
2:00:20
it's a first job with training and a wage. Our determination to help matched by their determination to hope
2:00:30
A conference my politics have been shaped by the industrial heartlands of South Yorkshire
2:00:42
And the most brutal day of that bitter miners' strike was at Orgreave
2:00:48
Today, on the site of the Orgreave pit, is Rotherham's Advanced Manufacturing Park
2:00:55
one of the most concentrated areas of innovation anywhere in Britain. It's where South Yorkshire's young people are now working with high-tech systems, making
2:01:06
things their grandparents could never have dreamt of. And one of those young people is Sean
2:01:14
Sean's dad was a local miner, but there were no pit jobs for Sean
2:01:19
So he joined the Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre. He joined as an apprentice
2:01:26
And so while his dad mined the coal that kept Britain's lights on, above that same coal
2:01:33
scene, Sean is now working on high-tech research for the future of nuclear power
2:01:40
Our coal mines are not coming back, but this is how Britain's industrial past is being
2:01:45
remade now for the modern world. It's how people are starting to tell each other stories of the future and not the past
2:01:53
This conference is a story we can tell across the country. In Scotland, where Dundee's old tyre factory closed
2:02:04
a new innovation park stands in its place. On D-side in Wales, where generations of shot and steel workers were laid off
2:02:14
Airbus is now recruiting hundreds of new workers to build the wings that fly the world
2:02:20
And in Derby, where they made the Spitfire engines, Rolls-Royce now build nuclear reactors
2:02:26
and put the UK at the front of clean energy globally. And so today I can announce that Rolls-Royce will invest an extra £300 million into its British factories
2:02:41
In Derby, in Bristol, in Glasgow and in Rotherham. Conference, this is the new age of industrialisation
2:02:59
This is the new confidence in Britain, lit by this government, driven forward by business
2:03:05
So don't tell me, don't tell me it's not possible to create a new age of British industry
2:03:12
Don't tell me it's not possible to have good growth in every postcode
2:03:16
And don't tell me that people can't hope again. We will use everything we can to drive good jobs, create good jobs, and industrialise Britain
2:03:37
We'll use the National Wealth Fund, creating and supporting 130,000 jobs across the UK
2:03:45
by 2030. pulling in the private investment to create jobs in AI, in tech, in defence and in clean energy
2:03:54
And we'll use the power of public procurement to direct more of the British taxpayers' money
2:03:59
to British business, British jobs and British innovation. We'll work in partnership with business and unions
2:04:08
We'll work with patriotism, proud to back British firms, promote British exports
2:04:13
and get British people working in the jobs we create. Now I know, I know how national industrial strength is national security
2:04:27
It means no dictator, no adversary can ever push us around. And so I want to confirm today that we, this government
2:04:36
will commit to £6 billion of contracts for our British shipyards. They'll build..
2:04:45
They'll build a new docks for the new submarines
2:04:57
that will defend us all for decades to come, built in Britain by British workers
2:05:02
because of the decisions of this Labour government. And confidence, confidence, credit where credit's due to the GMB for helping us get
2:05:17
this over the line. Because I'm proud to say that the British trade unions are full partners in this new
2:05:29
age of industrialisation. Proud it was the Labour government that put unions as full members on our industrial council
2:05:36
And yes, unions on the board of the Bank of England. Because Britain's economic success is built on the success of working people
2:05:53
And so to every union delegate in this hall, especially to those of you who serve as reps
2:06:03
or stewards, today I'm also announcing the rebirth of the Union Learning Fund
2:06:10
Set up by Labour, abolished by the Tories, now re-established by this Labour government
2:06:33
Thank you these volunteers who step forward to help their colleagues in the workplace
2:07:13
they do so as volunteers, sometimes at a cost to themselves, but always with the strength of the trade union behind them
2:07:21
They, too, are the very best of us all. So I'm proud. I'm proud to bring back this Union Learning Fund. I'm proud of the fact
2:07:32
that last time 180,000 workers every year got new training through that fund. And we'll
2:07:42
do that again. Better skills, better prospects for British workers because of the decisions
2:07:47
taken by this Labour government. And, Conference, I want this new learning fund
2:07:59
to come with a new focus, to help British workers harness artificial intelligence
2:08:05
not be outrun by it. AI is the greatest innovation of our time
2:08:11
It's a general-purpose technology that will simply transform our society at every level
2:08:16
Every business, every community, every hospital, every school, everywhere can benefit from adopting us
2:08:24
It's at the centre of a groundswell of new world-leading British tech companies
2:08:30
And it's the driving force with which this new age of industrialisation can be built
2:08:37
Yes, we need to face the serious risks to national security, to personal data and to our children's wellbeing
2:08:46
and it will change our labour market in fundamental ways. But I give you this commitment
2:08:53
We won't let AI leave Britain's workers behind, and we will make sure that Britain wins in this AI revolution
2:09:09
At Confidence, as we draw inspiration from our values, we also draw strength from our past
2:09:17
And it was 70 years ago, at a Labour conference, that Tony Crossland published his book on the future of our party
2:09:25
He wrote it then, believing that economic growth will take care of itself
2:09:31
and that Labour's job was simply to share out the proceeds. 20 years later, he realised he'd been wrong
2:09:38
That growth doesn't just happen. We have to work for it. We have to create the conditions for it
2:09:45
And without growth, there is no social democracy. You can't fund ends without the means
2:09:52
And that's the lesson for our generation. And Labour isn't just here to cut the cake in a different way
2:09:59
We have to bake a bigger cake and make sure that it's fairly shared
2:10:04
So whether it's the cost of business or the cost of living, the only long-term answer is growth
2:10:12
Good growth in every postcode. A dual mission from the Treasury and Number 10 North
2:10:18
London, the powerhouse of Britain's economy for so long, should not shoulder the economic burden alone
2:10:25
We need growth generated in more places. We need wealth created in more places
2:10:31
And I want our government decisions and our policies to bring new levels of confidence, investment
2:10:37
and, yes, profits in British business. because it's businesses that will create this country's jobs and wealth and growth
2:10:47
And I say... Growth isn't just a graph or a spreadsheet
2:11:02
It's a family at the kitchen table saying, yes, it looks like we can afford that holiday this summer
2:11:09
It's the sole trader saying, yes, for the first time I think I can take on an apprentice
2:11:16
And it's the community looking at its high street or its town centre saying, there are new shops, there are new businesses, the pubs haven't closed, we're turning a corner
2:11:28
And this is what I dedicate myself to as Britain's Chancellor. the growth that drives progress better wages better lives that is the Labour way
2:11:48
as a conference let's bring back hope to Britain for the next generation of young
2:11:52
people for a new age of industrialization for growth made here by
2:11:57
British firms and British workers. When you leave this hall, when you leave this
2:12:03
conference, remember that miner's lamp. Those Caughton Wood workers didn't carry it for themselves. They carried it for those beside them. They carried it for
2:12:14
their community. They carried it for the ones who came after. That is our job now
2:12:20
To light the way for a generation that's been told there is no way through. Good
2:12:26
work, fresh hope, a new age of industry and the solidarity that has always carried this
2:12:32
country forward. A country that can hope again, a country that will hope again, earned by
2:12:38
Labour, delivered for Britain. Thank you. I think he's finished
2:13:06
Sorry, this is James O'Brien speaking now, not John Healy. The standing ovation suggests that that final thank you
2:13:12
was a farewell to the stage. A quick explainer, I think, two things I want to tell you
2:13:17
Then perhaps we'll head to the junction and then come back with Natasha Clark after that
2:13:22
I don't know, let's see how the timings work. But that's why. I told you why I wanted to take the thing in its entirety, because I don't have much in my mental Rolodex about John Healy, and now I do
2:13:32
Whatever you thought of the speech, you now know a lot more about him, and he sees Labour through and through, isn't he
2:13:38
And taking it right back to his youth, and indeed giving that little introduction at conference that they all used to do, all the delegates used to do
2:13:45
where they state their affiliations. I think all the sort of less prominent delegates still do
2:13:50
They state their affiliations to constituency Labour parties and trade unions and a really timely reminder of in whose interests the Labour Party historically and currently serves I don know quite what the equivalent would be at other parties but speaking of other parties it is almost exactly two hours and 40 minutes since I told you that the relevant authorities would as soon as it was possible from their point of view release more details about the five men arrested over the suspected bomb plot at RAF Fairford
2:14:20
The authorities, the police, the security services are always adamant that the rest of us should avoid speculation because it is incredibly unhelpful and potentially even compromises criminal proceedings
2:14:32
Nigel Farage, of course, dives straight into speculation, talking about Iranian agents coming over on small boats
2:14:38
And I explained to you two hours and 40 minutes ago why he does that
2:14:42
It's to encourage people to blame anybody with a shared characteristic for unwelcome and unhappy events
2:14:51
And two hours and 40 minutes later, the police have revealed that the five men arrested over the suspected bomb plot at RAF Fairford are all British nationals from London, aged in their 20s
2:15:01
We now know that three are 24 years old from Camden, Westminster and Wilsdon
2:15:06
the others are 23 and 25. So, I mean, I don't spend a lot of time on the..
2:15:14
Well, I don't spend any time at all in the sewers of social media anymore, but occasionally something bobs to the surface
2:15:19
and I can't ignore it. So I've seen people... Some people insisting that it's a false flag operation by Mossad
2:15:26
and at the other end of the idiot's political scale, people adamant that it must have been undertaken
2:15:31
by people who arrived here in a small boat yesterday. And there are the police
2:15:35
dealing in investigations and facts. Quite a warm reception for John Healy's speech
2:15:44
I mean, not entirely warm, obviously, but mostly warm, and I think mostly of a piece with my observation
2:15:50
that it would be nice to know a little bit more about him, and now we do. We'll catch up with Natasha Clarke shortly
2:15:54
to pick over the bones of that. But first, across England, children are waiting for permanent homes
2:16:02
and there's an urgent need for more people to consider adopting. This Wednesday, Sheila Fogarty will be joined by
2:16:09
Adoption England's National Adoption Strategic Lead, Sarah Johal, MBE, to discuss a new campaign from You Can Adopt
2:16:18
They'll explore why some children wait longer to be adopted, what the process looks like today
2:16:23
and how prospective adopters could help shape a child's future. That's this Wednesday with Sheila Fogarty
2:16:30
I'm James O'Brien. It's 12.45. James O'Brien on LBC It's 12.48 You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
2:16:40
Final word on that thing from the police about the five men
2:16:45
arrested in Fairford The reason why the people who are currently polluting public discourse concern
2:16:51
me so much is because we should now if we follow their logic, we should now be
2:16:55
punishing all British nationals in their twenties, or we should be calling for all
2:16:59
British nationals from London in their 20s to be locked up or we should be suggesting that the british public should not trust
2:17:04
they're all fighting age is that fighting age british nationals in there do you see what i mean
2:17:09
so it doesn't matter whether they had turned out to be x y or z you you couldn't hold anybody who's
2:17:15
not them responsible for what they may or may not have done i'm going to keep pointing that out and
2:17:19
i'm never going to get bored of it because i'm not sure there's anything more important going on
2:17:23
in british politics at the moment up to and including the speech we just heard from the
2:17:27
Chancellor. Natasha is in Liverpool. I'm just going to rattle through some
2:17:31
texts in the spirit of PMQs. I like John Healy, writes Carl. Healy's impressed
2:17:35
me here. Actually not a bad speaker when he has something good to read. Oh, I wasn't expecting this, says Callum, but I really
2:17:41
like him. I'm not a natural labour guy, says Alexis, but Healy is coming across very
2:17:45
well. I love that he talks about the young... This is clever of me. There's two
2:17:49
texts here directly next to each other. Listen to them both. I love that he
2:17:53
talks about the young people in a way that sees them and the world they inhabit as it is
2:17:57
not trying to impose his own experience on them, says Elise. Whereas Fred says, what is it with politicians
2:18:02
that whenever they talk about issues affecting 16 to 24-year-olds, they so often address their parents rather than the young people themselves
2:18:09
They talk about them rather than to them. So two people listening to exactly the same speech
2:18:13
arriving at diametrically opposed conclusions. And Paul writes, so far on Healy's speech
2:18:20
a vacuous nothing burger, and that was at 12.28, so probably with about 10 seconds still to go
2:18:26
including the resurrection, of course, of the Union Learning Fund. Natasha Clarke is there. She is in the room where it happens
2:18:35
And you won't have heard this, Natasha, because you were far too busy working, but I suggested it would be an opportunity for John Healy to tell us a little bit more about himself, actually
2:18:45
because he's not one of those politicians that the average voter has on a kind of mental speed dial
2:18:50
You don't know an awful lot about him, and he certainly took the opportunity to do that
2:18:54
hi james yes you're right i think many people won't really know too much about john healy other
2:19:00
than that he resigned when he was defense secretary because he didn't think that enough
2:19:04
money was being put into defense and he's back uh now in the cabinet now as chancellor and he's got
2:19:10
a big budget uh friendly announcement on defense spending for us talking about how the government
2:19:15
want to build more of the parts of british uh british nuclear deterrence uh here in britain
2:19:21
and lots of billions of pounds going into that investment. But yes, it was really nice to see, I think
2:19:28
cabinet ministers like John Healey being much more personable, I think, than they have been under previous prime ministers
2:19:34
and under Keir Starmer, certainly. John Healey, like I say, is behind the scenes a very personal man
2:19:41
People describe him as sort of like a real true sort of labour man to his core
2:19:45
but a lot of people, I think, don't know really what sort of John Healey-ism is going to be and what it is going to look like him in the Treasury and what the decisions that
2:19:52
he's going to make at the budget are going to look like. And this speech was never going to be about
2:19:57
the decisions we might see in the budget, but more the framing of that. And the whole message
2:20:01
for this conference is, which you saw on the on the speech on the on the screen behind John Healey
2:20:05
was hope again. And that's what he was trying to lay out today. And I thought interesting that he's
2:20:10
talking about the NEATS review that he wants to talk about Labour getting people into work and
2:20:16
and those 1 million young people who are not in a job and how he's going to make that a real key centrepiece of what Labour are going to do
2:20:25
But John Healy talked a lot about sort of his experience in the Treasury already
2:20:29
I remember when he first was announced as Chancellor and he was a surprise pit
2:20:33
Nobody knew that he was going to be appointed Chancellor. He was not on the list that anybody had on their bingo cards, James, at the time
2:20:39
And that really nice anecdote that we just heard from Healy just then when he was talking about when I was in the Treasury last
2:20:45
Gordon Brown was doing his first speech to the Labour Party conference so you know cast your
2:20:49
minds back in time and he didn't have a red tie so he had to nick mine and I've only just got it
2:20:53
back. Lovely story. That was a nice little moment there. Yeah and like showing you know the more
2:20:57
personal side to him because I think you know John Healy's seen as Mr Serious isn't it isn't he and
2:21:02
obviously now he in charge of the government purse strings He did set us up with a little bit of a budget warning there saying look I not got the money that the Labour Party had when they first when I was last in the Treasury
2:21:13
We had loads of money to spend and we don't anymore. So a bit of a warning there that he's not going to be able to do everything that everybody wants him to do in this upcoming budget
2:21:20
It's going to be really hard. And he explained the reason why we're spending so much money on debt
2:21:24
We're spending more money on debt's interest than on the Justice Department and the Home Department put together
2:21:30
So billions of pounds being sort of basically put down the drain there
2:21:34
But interesting to see Andy Burnham in the room for his speech, the pair of them, you know, smiling and sort of patting each other on the back
2:21:41
And, you know, a bit of an indication there of the relationship between the two men
2:21:46
which obviously we know the relationship between number 10 and number 11 is so important for any prime minister and really showing that they are
2:21:52
according to at least what we saw from the main stage there
2:21:56
they're very much on the same page. They're very much showing a united front. This is Andy Burnham's victory lap, really, I think, James, today at this party conference
2:22:04
He's obviously, you know, become prime minister. We've not seen too much of him. We've not seen too much of John Healy
2:22:09
And this is, you know, I think the party faithful's moment to really have a bit of a reset moment
2:22:15
Everybody here is a little bit cheerier than they were last year. There's a little bit more hope, a little bit more optimism in the room
2:22:21
And that's exactly what Andy Burnham and John Healy were announcing today, sort of setting the stage for that moment of hope that Andy Burnham is going to be delivering in his big speech tomorrow
2:22:29
And what time tomorrow should people be tuning in for that? I believe it's in the afternoon
2:22:36
OK, so it's not on our watch. I think it's at about two o'clock
2:22:39
No, I don't think so. What else has happened today? Ed Miliband has given a speech. Yeah, Ed Miliband's speech, really interesting a thought today, James
2:22:46
Not really a lot of new news in there, but really defending what he has done already on Israel
2:22:51
I don't know if you've seen the video circulating on social media. Ed Miliband was accosted in Pizza Express here in Liverpool
2:22:57
by some activists last night. But I think he handled the situation incredibly well
2:23:02
Obviously, he's getting a lot of flack from some parts of society. Was he sweating
2:23:06
I don't think so. Sorry, it's a rubbish joke. It's a rubbish joke. Carry on. Sorry
2:23:11
I don't get it, James. I don't get it. Pizza Express, Prince Andrew, Andrew Windsor sweating
2:23:16
Sorry, I totally should have got that. I should not interrupt you. Sorry. So he coped with that well
2:23:20
And he addressed some of the... He coped with it really well. He's talking about how he believes it's the right thing to do
2:23:25
He's defending the decisions that he's made on Israel, which I think have gone down incredibly well amongst the Labour Party faithful
2:23:32
He said earlier today, you were right, we hear you. He told those critics that Labour was wrong on Gaza
2:23:37
He's saying the government under Andy Burnham will take more decisive and progressive foreign policy decisions
2:23:42
So that will be really interesting and we'll be hearing from him a little bit later today on LBC as well
2:23:46
where he'll be talking to us about making those decisions and why he believes that Labour do need to be bolder on Gaza
2:23:52
So it's been an issue that we've talked time and time again, including on your show about. I think many people here really welcoming the government's shift in position on Israel in the last few weeks that we've seen
2:24:02
And back to John Healy. I mean, things that the party faithful will take away from that that are substantive rather than rhetorical or biographical
2:24:10
There seem to be a very warm response for the Trade Union Learning Fund
2:24:15
A return to money being made available for sort of adult education, really, I think, for trade union members
2:24:22
Yeah, definitely. That got the biggest cheer in the room, didn't it? It was a big cheer
2:24:25
for the defence of the RNLI and a big cheer for that union learning fund money, which John
2:24:31
Healy says scrapped under the Tories, brought back under a Labour government. So, like I
2:24:35
say, really trying to show those dividing lines with the Conservative Party. We also
2:24:39
heard the ghost of Liz Truss mentioned, didn't we? John Healy saying that actually, and I
2:24:43
think this is going to be, as you rightly pointed out at the time, Andrew Griffith
2:24:47
the guy that is now the Tory shadow chancellor at the heart of that Liz Truss mini budget
2:24:52
And that, I think, is going to be a big theme for the Labour Party going forward to try and get those dividing lines with the Tories and remind them that actually the economic inheritance now that this Labour government is having to deal with, a lot of it is because of Liz Truss
2:25:05
A lot of it is because of the Conservatives, where they have left John Healy. And actually, it's a really interesting comparison, isn't it
2:25:10
When in 2010, the Tories took over, that there is no money left note that was left for them
2:25:16
now totally trying to turn the tables on that narrative and saying the reason we are in this economic rut now
2:25:21
is because of the mess the Conservative left. So a fascinating sort of way to frame it
2:25:26
I did think it was interesting. I don't know if you heard this, James, and forgive me if I did. There wasn't much on reform, I felt, in John Healy's speech today
2:25:32
And we have seen the last two years under Keir Starmer, the government and the Labour Party really treating reform as the official opposition
2:25:40
And there are some people that we've been speaking to here at the Labour Party conference that are worried that they're now shifting back to the Conservatives
2:25:45
as their main sort of official opposition, a sign that maybe Nigel Farage is sort of on the down
2:25:51
and maybe the Tory party are on the revival. So who knows
2:25:54
But from what I heard of John Healy's speech, I didn't hear him really go after Nigel Farage
2:26:00
They don't really have any economic policies at the moment, And apart from making it easier for cryptocurrency billionaires to become even richer than they are already, including, of course, the cryptocurrency billionaires who keep funneling money into both Nigel Farage's party and Nigel Farage's personal pocket, although they tried to do the second bit in secret
2:26:16
He called him Liz Truss with a Bitcoin account. and I suppose if we were to get into the Kremlinology of it
2:26:22
when he defends the RNLI volunteers, he is attacking people like Nigel Farage
2:26:27
and various sort of black-shorted fascists who turn up at our ports
2:26:32
because, of course, they think nothing of either describing the RNLI in very unhelpful and unfair terms
2:26:38
or indeed terrorising the volunteers themselves. So it may be interesting to see what Burnham does
2:26:45
Generally, warm reception here, very, very warm reception in the hall. one of which you could predict, the other one of which, not necessarily
2:26:52
not necessarily, but that air of optimism in the room was palpable, as Natasha suggested, which is, of course, why the Burnham Optimism Barometer
2:26:59
is now in its sort of 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 10th week
2:27:03
And the result earlier today, if you missed it again, was the seventh nine on the trot
2:27:10
It's coming up to 12.59. Sheila Fogarty, of course, like Natasha, in Liverpool
2:27:14
and even more importantly, joined by the Prime Minister himself at 3 o'clock today
2:27:21
when he will be taking your calls on the usual number. If you missed any of my show today
2:27:25
you can listen back on our free Global Player app or the LBC app, where you can also stay up to date
2:27:29
with all the latest news, videos and opinions. You can listen to a range of podcasts
2:27:34
including James O'Brien Daily and Full Disclosure, which I'm about to record with the man who..
2:27:39
I just forgot about this. when we got Charlie Hickson to do David Davis
2:27:47
during the Brexit shenanigans in the style of Swiss Tony off the Fast Show. Charlie's my guest, finally
2:27:51
Charlie's going to be joining me on Full Disclosure later today. I don't know when you'll get to hear that, but sooner rather than later
2:27:56
Download the official LBC app for free from your app store now
2:28:01
Coming up on LBC at four, it's Tom Sawbrick, but now it's time for Sheila Fogarty
2:28:05
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