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James O'Brien reacts as Andy Burnham pledges to look at the UK's relationship with the EU.
Speaking on the subject of Brexit during his conference speech, Mr Burnham said leaving the EU "hasn't given us control".
The Prime Minister detailed how Britain had "lost some of the control we had over our economy, as a decade of low growth has put us in a weaker position".
Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp
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0:00
Let's just pause together for a moment, shall we
0:03
Some strange things have happened in recent years. No, not those. Some very strange things have happened in recent years
0:09
I don't know when it happened, but it probably had something to do with Boris Johnson
0:15
finally cobbling together pretty much exactly the same deal that Theresa May had offered to Parliament
0:22
and Boris Johnson had rejected as a key part of getting his hands upon the reins of power
0:27
But maybe something happened there. Was that 2019, was it, roughly? End of 2019
0:33
And you just sort of thought, oh, well, that's it then. We've done it. We've jumped off a cliff without a parachute
0:37
We've got on the wrong train. And I love that Japanese proverb. I don't know that I've ever shared it with you before
0:43
But rest assured I'll be sharing it again in the course of today's programme. If you get on the wrong train, get off at the first station that you can
0:50
because otherwise the journey is going to cost you a heck of a lot more than it needs to
0:56
If you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station. The longer you take to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be
1:03
But I'm afraid I haven't subscribed to that proverb over the years. Listen, if you're one of the many people that are relatively new to this program
1:11
then just a quick word on how we became a kind of bastion of Brexit reality
1:17
in the aftermath of the referendum. I'm not even entirely sure how it happened
1:22
And it's probably because almost all of the rest of the media, especially commercial media, had signed up for the whole project for reasons that still baffle many
1:32
You know, whether you're talking about radio presenters or newspaper columnists, they almost all, all of the ones with a degree of prominence, insisted that it was all going to go brilliantly, even though it was blindingly obvious to anyone with a brain that it was not
1:44
And so we became a bit of a bastion of reality. And people would ring in and in their defense
1:50
And I mean that sincerely. In their defence, they would parrot the sort of lines that they'd heard from people like Jacob Rees-Mogg or Daniel Hanan or, I mean, I can't remember the most, Boris Johnson, I suppose, David Davis
2:07
They'd parrot the lines that they'd heard from these people and, of course, their favourite commentators
2:12
And I would ask them one or two very simple questions and the entire edifice, the entire argument would fall apart like a cheap suit
2:20
And sometimes perhaps I was a little unkind in my approach. And as the years passed, I tried to be kinder
2:25
But the point is that we were a little bit, I don't want to say ahead of the game
2:31
because I relied on other people's expertise to explain some of the finer points to me
2:36
whether it was the looming difficulties of exporting into continental Europe, Things that you needed no paperwork or regulations particularly to export previously
2:50
And then, of course, some of the economic questions and the relationship between membership and international trade, all of those things
2:58
And the lies about immigration, bizarrely. The fact that people still believe that it was membership of the European Union that demanded that influx of Eastern European people immediately after accession
3:11
accession and it wasn't because countries like Germany handled things very differently but it doesn't matter
3:17
now. I mean that battle is lost so you would think, wouldn't you
3:20
that we I, it's not a member of the royal family that I would be
3:26
cock-a-hoop today finally we have a Prime Minister who has told the truth
3:32
and I wonder whether we were slightly corrupted by the excessive caution
3:36
of Keir Starmer. Keir Starmer in retrospect and I don't want to do this on a daily
3:41
basis, but I think in the immediate aftermath of his successor's first conference speech
3:46
you cannot but help glance in the rearview mirror as you contemplate the road ahead
3:51
And Keir Starmer's excessive caution, you know, the way that he conducted his premiership
3:57
in fear of criticism or in fear of opinion polls or in fear of the front page of the
4:02
Daily Mail, when he gave an impression at the very beginning that he wasn't going to
4:06
do that meant that he came out with something like we will never rejoin in my lifetime I don believe we will ever rejoin in my lifetime And I wonder whether that corrupted me slightly in that it sort of prompted a subconscious shrug of the shoulders Subconsciously
4:23
when you hear a Labour prime minister who was a very prominent advocate of the idiocy of leaving
4:29
the European Union, you hear a prominent politician like that who has achieved power
4:33
the ultimate power that this country can bestow, and he says, not in my lifetime. I wonder whether
4:39
there was a sort of internal shrug and I just sort of thought, ah, well, oh, that ship has sailed
4:46
And then there are people who do brilliant work in trying to get the ship afloat once again
4:52
trying to refloat the ship. And I would occasionally, my eye would be caught by their work or their
4:58
polling or their efforts. And I'd think, yeah, there's no way. Let's say Keir Starmer's got
5:02
another 30 years on the clock. There's no way we're still going to be out in 30 years time
5:07
It's gravity. It's being on the wrong train. It's common sense. And then the other voice would kick in
5:14
and you remember that the whole Brexit project involved denying those three things
5:19
We're not on the wrong train at all. We always intended to be going there. Just because we bought a ticket for somewhere completely different
5:24
doesn't mean that we are disappointed to find ourselves heading off in the opposite direction from the one we were promised and the one that we paid for
5:32
It's not common sense at all. It's not about common sense. It's all about believing. If you just believe enough, you can entirely defuse the power and the importance of common sense
5:42
And don't be ridiculous. It's not gravity. If you believe in Brexit, you can fly. You will be able to fly
5:49
So if you'd asked me, and actually you may have done if you've ever been to any of my live events
5:54
if you were to ask me, if you had asked me, what, a year ago, two years ago, five years ago
6:00
how do you think the return will begin? or who do you think will sound the sort of clarion call
6:07
to begin the process, I think I would have said to you, I don't know
6:13
I don't know. The Tories have no chance of doing this. I used to have a little fond and mischievous imagining
6:20
not that long ago that it would be a Tory who broke rank first
6:23
It would be a Tory leadership contender, probably one more leader from now or two more leaders from now
6:30
It would be a Tory leadership contender who said, Can we all just stop pretending that leaving the European Union was anything other than an absolutely stupid idea
6:39
And I don't know whether it would have turbocharged their Tory leadership campaign
6:43
or whether it would have hold it below the waterline before it even got going. But it's like a breaking of a murder
6:49
Leaving the Liberal Democrats out of it, both major parties have used phrases
6:53
or subscribed to schools of thought like respecting the will of the people
6:57
which is, spoiler alert, stupid because none of those people voted for what they actually got
7:05
They all voted for the things that they told they were going to get. Most obviously, I suppose, whether you're an actual racist or not
7:12
for reduced immigration, which you were never going to get as a consequence
7:15
of leaving the European Union unless you were happy to see the ranks of our employment sector absolutely deserted
7:25
That was obviously never going to happen, but people voted for that. Or they voted because they thought they were going to be richer
7:31
Or they voted because they thought that somehow we would be able to free ourselves from laws
7:35
that they were signally unable to mention but absolutely convinced were a terrible stranglehold
7:42
upon their daily existence. It is not the will of the people if the people voted for something completely different
7:48
from what they got. So both major parties too frightened of, I don't know
7:53
the massed ranks, the gross alliance of client journalists, plutocrat newspaper owners and half-witted or jingoistic politicians
8:05
They were all too frightened to say, and listen, it would have been perhaps electoral suicide to say it on day one
8:12
but they've all been too frightened to say for the best part of ten years
8:16
what a sorry mess this is. The sooner we can undo it, the better. Take back control. Do me a flavour
8:23
I mean that was probably the stupidest slogan in history until it all began to fall apart and they came up with believe in Brexit instead And that was the stupidest slogan in history until that began to fall apart and they came up with let go WTO
8:37
I try sometimes these days to be a little less rude than I have been over the years
8:42
but goodness me, the mutton-headed ignorance of the people carrying around banners
8:47
that contained a selection of words which when put together meant absolutely nothing
8:52
but they were prepared to sacrifice our economic health upon the altar of their own stupidity
8:57
their own bovine ignorance, absolutely still boggles the mind and drives a coach and horses
9:03
through any attempts on my part to be a bit kinder. I spent ten years doing Contempt for the Con Men
9:09
Compassion for the Cond, and I meant it, but I don't mean it anymore
9:13
If you're still clinging to that carcass, then I'm afraid you're a fool. At the very best, you're a fool
9:21
But I didn't think it was going to happen yet. I really didn't think it was going to happen yet
9:26
and I don't know why I am so surprised that Andy Burnham has gone so far so quickly
9:33
and I certainly don't think anything is guaranteed, and I certainly don't want to engage in any premature chicken counting
9:42
but when you have on the front page of Rupert Murdoch's Times
9:46
and remember that although he subsequently denied it, Rupert Murdoch reportedly told the then city editor
9:51
of the London Evening Standard that when he goes to Downing Street, they do what he says
9:56
But when he goes to Brussels, no one gives a hoot what he has to say
10:01
a large part of the reason why his newspapers came out passionately opposed to European Union membership
10:07
because he has more influence in a country that's cut itself off from the biggest single market in the world
10:14
And when you see on their front page the headline, Burnham raises prospect of a second referendum on Brexit
10:20
You have to recognise that for now at least, for now at least, the conversation has changed
10:30
The mood has changed. The wind even, perhaps, has changed. And I don't know quite what to make of that at the moment
10:38
He went further. He ran through a selection of options. And I should, sitting here today, I think, I should be feeling a little bit more excited than I am
10:53
And this is one of the subjects where I hope you'll allow me to adopt a very personal position on the issue
11:00
So why am I not more excited? I mean, this is almost as if Andy Burnham has answered my personal dreams
11:08
He is recognising that we need to get off the train as soon as possible because we're heading in the wrong direction
11:16
That doing so is neither straightforward nor easy and could involve a variety of different options for, most obviously, rejoining the customs union or rejoining the single market or rejoining the EU or some sort of bespoke deal, which is possibly the most likely
11:35
You'd look at Switzerland probably as the chance of that, but his words are unequivocal
11:43
He has not ruled out a second referendum, but further than that, he's pointed out that Brexit has not gone well, and indeed that it was never going to
11:52
So I don't want to do an entire phone-in based upon why I'm not more excited, but I would like to examine that question by asking you whether you are
12:03
It's happened. We have a Prime Minister who recognises explicitly the foolishness, the foolhardiness
12:11
Stop saying idiocy because you were conned. You didn't know that you were heading towards a cliff edge
12:18
You thought you were heading towards a promised land. So the foolhardiness of Brexit acknowledged, recognised and described by a serving Prime Minister
12:29
and a promise, a pledge, an indication of a determination to undo at least parts of it
12:41
There it is It a completely different conversation In fact that little shrug I described to you ten minutes ago should be unshrugged now Is that a verb Is that a word Can I use that on cross Un I don think you can
12:52
unshrug, can you? Because a shrug involves an unshrug, right? You shrug your shoulders, it goes up
12:56
and down, so you can't unshrug your shoulders because a shrug is not a permanent state
13:00
of affairs. If you unshrug your shoulders, you might fall over. The Prime Minister is talking
13:06
about this now as something that he wants to do, recognises the necessity of
13:10
doing. And I wonder whether that shrug gets undone, because it now becomes plausible and
13:18
feasible. Whereas the reason why I didn't think it was worth talking about, or I didn't feel it was
13:22
a viable or a realistic prospect, or I didn't feel the burning sense of passion and injustice
13:28
that many of the brilliant campaigners in this field have kept the flame burning for a decade
13:34
now, best for Britain being probably my favourite of those organisations. I didn't feel the passion
13:40
that they felt because it didn't seem to me to be worth it
13:45
With Keir Starmer in Downing Street and the Tories being the second most likely replacement for them
13:51
and Farage, one of the key architects of Brexit and putting Boris Johnson in Downing Street
13:55
and telling you that Donald Trump was going to be a brilliant ally to this country and denying climate change
14:00
and describing Liz Truss as an economic genius. One man has been wrong about everything in the last ten years
14:06
It's him. And he was leading the polls until very recently. So I guess that sense that this might happen never really landed with me
14:16
And if I'm completely honest with you, I don't know that it has yet
14:22
I'll read you some of Andy Barnum's words and I'll play you some of what he said in his speech. And then I'll ask whether you are feeling it
14:28
0345 60 60 973 is the number that you need. But before that, focus on the question
14:36
I mean it is essentially a question about how you greet the news
14:41
how you greet the fact that we have a Prime Minister who is up for it
14:47
is keen to get us off this stupid train I said a while ago that what we should do is just rejoin
14:53
and tell everybody that they're allowed to claim that that's what they wanted all along and then you get your sort of human gristle
14:59
can just sort of go quiet and they can even start moaning about it again
15:03
but just you absolve everybody of the responsibility for driving the coach off the cliff
15:07
or for cheering the drivers who drove the coach off the cliff and you want to go back over it
15:12
This may be a little hypocritical of me, but you want to go back over it and almost rejoice
15:17
in pointing out to them that you were right all along. It's happened way ahead of what I expected
15:24
The Prime Minister has, as you've just heard, laid out the very simple fact that Brexit has done
15:28
in his words, more harm than good, although I don't think it would have been fair to ask him to list exactly what the goods were that it has brought to us
15:34
that undoing it is necessary because our relationship with our largest trading partner remains profoundly suboptimal
15:41
And all of this is self-evident. And I don't currently feel any urge to reach for the party poppers
15:50
That's the reason why I don't know how I feel, because I don't know that it is doable
15:56
And so obviously I feel passionately about the stupidity, I shouldn't say that word, the foolhardiness of leaving the European Union
16:04
And I could, until relatively recently, muster up epic reserves of empathy for many of the people who'd been conned, not least because I get to speak to them
16:12
You know, I also historically have had a very good line of communication with the people who will never admit that they were conned and who just shift from one nonsense to another
16:21
From, you know, take back control to believe in Brexit to let's go WTO to whatever nonsense it is that they're coming out with next
16:30
Well, I'll tell you what they're going to come out with next. And it's actually the most logical position that they've ever held
16:34
We shouldn't join now because the deal we get won't be as good as the one we had before
16:38
Say the people who said that the one we had before was so bad that we should leave the whole operation
16:42
I mean, it's madness, but at least there is a sort of logic to that for the first time in all of the previous positions
16:48
So the reason why I have reservations is because I'm not convinced that we live in a country that is psychologically ready for this
16:59
And by that, I suppose that I mean, I think the liars might prevail again
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