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You tell me why you're optimistic about Andy Burnham | James O'Brien - The Whole Show
Sep 2, 2026
This is a catch-up version of James O'Brien's live, daily show on LBC Radio from the 1st of September, 2026.
00:00 - Are you optimistic about Andy Burnham?
51:46 - What's your immediate reaction to renationalisation and "more public control"?
01:37:22 - Sharp rise in number of friendless young people - Why?
02:02:56 - How the media works - Mic Wright, Author of Breaking: How the Media Works, When it Doesn't and Why it Matters
#jamesobrien #politics #LBC
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0:00
It's three minutes after ten and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
0:08
Well, listen, what do you reckon? Do you think it's a coincidence? Five weeks now, or week five we are in, of what we have called the Burnham Optimism Barometer
0:18
something that was designed to recognise a strange phenomenon in that people were feeling
0:23
despite having been, rightly or wrongly, disappointed by Keir Starmer, the Prime Minister who signalled an end to years, it felt like, didn't it
0:35
Endless decades of Tory rule typified by austerity and Brexit and Boris Johnson and all the rest of it
0:43
And then Keir Starmer came in, not exactly on a tidal wave of optimism
0:48
but certainly on a small little wave of optimism. And very, very quickly it dissipated
0:54
dissipated and a large part of that dissipation was as much about personality as it was about
1:00
events. In fact it was probably that unique combination of personality and events whereby
1:07
somebody else could have coped with trials and tribulations better than he could and of course
1:13
in an ideal world you wouldn't have exposed yourself to the trials and tribulations in the
1:17
first place but the reason why we came up with the Burnham Optimism Barometer was because we
1:22
recognised there was a genuine sense of optimism around Andy Burnham. We may, this hour, look at
1:28
why, actually. In fact, I think we almost certainly will. It occurred to me just then
1:34
as in the bulletins, we heard that he is now going to be attending Parliament for the very
1:39
first time as Prime Minister. And it occurred to me, I started prep school, which is kind of
1:46
for privately educated people. It's kind of the bridge. You start at seven
1:52
so it's neither primary school nor secondary school. You start at seven
1:56
I started prep school in 1979, so that feels like the beginning of my education proper
2:02
You know, prior to that, it was very kindergarten-y. And I left school in 1990
2:09
which means that, for mathematics fans out there, There was an 11-year window of what you might loosely describe as my education
2:18
And for that entire period, arguably my most formative years, there was only one Prime Minister
2:28
There was only one Prime Minister between 1979 and 1990, and that Prime Minister was Margaret Thatcher
2:36
Do you know, it's not Monday, actually, it's Tuesday. Can you make a note to pick me up if I mention that it's Monday
2:42
It feels like Monday, but of course, you might well have been working yesterday
2:46
so it wouldn't feel like Monday to you today. It still feels like Tuesday. But occasionally, when I've had a couple of days off, I get on air
2:53
I never know what I'm going to say before my mouth opens. So far, so good
2:57
And I'll say something, and I'll think, that doesn't actually sound right. Have I got that wrong
3:02
Are you sure Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979? Are you sure that she left in 1990
3:06
I think I'm right. I should have checked before I came on air, but there it is. For my entire education, there was only one prime minister
3:13
Now, imagine somebody born 11 years ago. How many prime ministers would they have had
3:19
if they'd been born in 2015, right? It would be 2015. So you would have just had Cameron
3:26
and then you'd have had the Brexit referendum, and Cameron would have been replaced by May
3:31
And then May would have got sandbagged by Boris Johnson, and then Boris Johnson would have sandbagged himself
3:35
and been replaced by Liz Truss. And then Liz Truss would have, what's an even more extreme version of self-immolation than sandbagging
3:44
Liz Truss would have just sort of blown up. And you had Rishi Sunak
3:49
And then Rishi Sunak did all right. You know, kept the home fires burning until being handed his sandwiches wrapped in a roadmap by the electorate
3:56
I've already lost count. Have you lost count? I've already lost count. Let's start again
4:00
So David Cameron, replaced by Theresa May, replaced by Boris Johnson, replaced by Liz Truss, replaced by Rishi Sunak
4:06
replaced by Keir Starmer, seven. Seven
4:17
Seven prime ministers in the same period of formative years for someone who was seven in 2015
4:24
where, for me, at the same age, for the same period, there was one
4:29
There was one. One prime minister, and now there's seven. The reason I mention that is, A, because it's mildly diverting, isn't it
4:35
and quite interesting, but B, because it's... I mean, imagine how exciting it was
4:40
when Margaret Thatcher was replaced by John Major. That's a sentence I never thought I'd say
4:43
But historically and politically exciting, journalistically exciting. We've got a new Prime Minister
4:48
We haven't had a new Prime Minister arriving in Parliament for ages. And we've had seven in the last 11 years
4:57
which means it's less exciting, right? I mean, so what, you might say? We have to treat it as if there was one every decade
5:03
but in fact, there have been seven. in the last decade. It's insane, that, isn't it
5:09
Do you fancy a phone-in about why? Would that be interesting? I don't mean today
5:15
I just mean why? How have we ended? I mean, what is the broader truth that explains this extraordinary statistic
5:20
as opposed to the minute and specific details of why each premiership failed
5:26
The broader truth. Do we not give them long enough? Anyway, I digress, because Andy Burnham has arrived in Downing Street
5:32
for a country that has its political discourse almost entirely dominated by right-wing media owners
5:39
and the little bit that's left is now dominated by racist billionaire-owned social media platforms
5:45
So it's a flipping miracle that a Labour Prime Minister can be elected at all. And, of course, Burnham is yet to be elected
5:51
as a Labour Prime Minister. But the idea that one can arrive on the political stage
5:57
with a genuine sense of optimism and momentum behind them, when you look at all the effort put into pretending that people like Liz Truss are incredible
6:05
and that people like Angela Rayner are awful, it's a flipping miracle that enough of the British public can see through this nonsense
6:12
to arrive at the conclusion that this chap seems all right, actually. And do you know what? I'm actually quite upbeat about his prospects
6:19
So, remind me what the Burnham Optimism scores were so far. I think, did we go 8888, 8889, 8888, anyway, very high
6:29
And this is an entirely unscientific and self-selecting sample, although we do do it accurately for the people that bother to get in touch with the programme
6:38
It's open now and we'll shut it after the next break, but it's much easier if you don't actually send in your score out of 10 for the Burnham Optimism Barometer
6:47
until we head towards the first break of the day. But it has been, I think, 8889, has it
6:53
Is anyone checking this stuff apart from me? I think it's 8889
6:59
88899. It's week six of the Burnham... I told you I make mistakes when I come back to work after a few days off
7:05
So we're now in week six of the Burnham Optimism Barometer, and we've had three eights and two nines
7:09
As I say, it's entirely unscientific and entirely self-selecting, but it speaks to a sense, doesn't it
7:16
You don't have to be feeling it to acknowledge that it's there. There is a genuine sense of optimism surrounding Andy Burnham
7:23
And that is I think my first question for you today because it not going to last It quite funny to watch them trying to already punch holes in it I don know if you familiar with the practice of giving people who don really like thinking much helpful slogans or ideas
7:38
that allow them to avoid thinking much. So Brexit was probably the apotheosis of that process
7:42
when people would shout things like, they need us more than we need them, or let's go WTO
7:48
and none of these people could ever explain what on earth these things meant. So with the early release scheme now, you're supposed to just say
7:53
Why don't we stick them in Dartmoor? And it allows you to pretend that an incredibly complicated issue
7:59
created by Tory governments is easily fixed. And Andy Burnham must be an idiot for not thinking
8:06
oh, I know what we'll do. We'll just stick them in Dartmoor. So simple answers to complicated questions
8:11
having polluted British politics more than probably at any other point in history over the last 10 years
8:17
will now start coming for Andy Burnham. So stick them all in Dartmoor. Whatever you do, don't stop to think about things
8:22
or wonder about things or wonder why perhaps they haven't done that thing
8:25
that is blindingly obvious because Doris Impenge has phoned LBC to say so
8:30
Stick them all in Dartmoor! That's your first example of how they are going to try to knock the gloss
8:36
off the new Prime Minister. And then, of course, there'll be plenty of things that he does himself
8:40
that knock the gloss off him. But would you laugh at me if I said I'm surprised that he's arriving in Parliament
8:46
with so much of that gloss still in place? I don't know where he is most vulnerable
8:52
I really don't I probably would have said if you'd asked me that question about Keir Starmer
8:57
he's too managerial I moved shamelessly from welcoming the dullness to worrying that the absence of what you could call
9:05
personality or obvious personality was going to be huge and then of course there was the querulousness
9:11
the fear of doing anything the quality of U-turn and reverse ferret
9:17
the idea that none of us could really work out what he stood for even as he did many decent and creditable things
9:23
the sense of the whole project beginning to fall apart from pretty much the winter fuel allowance debacle onwards
9:29
was close to irresistible. So Andy Burnham has hit the ground running, I think
9:36
at a fair old trot. But I'm more interested in the emotional question of optimism
9:41
because optimism is not a scientific response to a scenario or a set of situations
9:48
Optimism is something, I don't know what it is, something abstract, isn't it
9:53
Something intangible. You can be optimistic even in the face of disappointment
9:57
It's a bit like football. You go to the football in the hope of winning
10:01
even when all of the evidence is that you're going to get absolutely thumped
10:06
And for people who follow such matters, yes, I was at Southend on Friday night
10:10
and yes, it was a perfect example of optimism triumphing over all realistic expectations or reality
10:16
Come on, the Reds. but I want to know why you are optimistic about Andy Burnham
10:22
or of course why you're not. Always remember that. Whatever the question is, ask yourself the negative version of it
10:28
Ask yourself the inverse version of the question that I'm asking. And it is interesting
10:34
You might not think your answer to this question is interesting but it's interesting to me
10:40
I've been slightly surprised, albeit that it's entirely unscientific and as I say, wholly self-selecting
10:45
I've been slightly surprised by the number of people getting in touch
10:52
to express their levels of optimism regarding the new Prime Minister, and even more surprised by how high those numbers started and stayed
11:01
It might plummet today. We might be down to two today. At some point, no doubt, it will be rigged and fixed and doctored
11:07
by bad actors and Russian bots. But for now, we're looking at an extraordinary run of high scores
11:14
in answer to the question of how optimistic are you about Andy Burnham's premiership
11:18
And we haven't yet stopped to wonder why. So there it is
11:23
It is going to be that curious blend of personality and policy
11:29
but at the moment I would argue, I would suggest even to you
11:34
that it's more about personality than anything else. Another Prime Minister, let me tell you exactly what I mean by that
11:39
Another Prime Minister could have announced the decision to pass legislation to keep Andrew Harper's killers in jail, making changes to the early release scheme in response to media and public pressure, as well as, I hope, and I think, profound concern for the well-being and the feelings of PC Harper's family
12:04
another Prime Minister could get a coating for that even if you end up doing what they want you to do
12:11
you can end up emerging from the entire process in debt, you know, in political debt
12:19
You saw it, oddly, with the winter fuel allowance. Keir Starmer did something that was unpopular
12:23
and then he undid it. So technically and logically, scientifically that should make you popular
12:28
Oh, he's done what we wanted. He ended up upsetting everybody. The people who thought it was a bad idea in the first place
12:33
and the people who thought it was a good idea in the first place. So Keir Starmer did something in a way that made everything worse than it was before he did it
12:43
He introduced a policy, he removed the policy, he came out of it with absolutely no credit whatsoever
12:48
Andy Burnham under a different lens, or Andy Burnham in a different universe
12:54
or a different Prime Minister doing what Andy Burnham did, and I'm sure that people will accuse him of a U-turn
13:00
but it's not currently going to stick any more than the idea
13:03
that the entire prisons crisis caused by Tories could be solved by reopening Dartmoor tomorrow
13:10
These things won't stick in the first instance because they're obvious nonsense, touted by populists and ignoramuses
13:17
but it could have stuck on Burnham. He's done a U-turn, he's buckled to media pressure
13:22
he should be true to it. It hasn't worked. That's a reason to be optimistic
13:28
I mean, it could all fall apart around his ears. And, of course, when people are released from prison early, in quotes
13:35
because there is literally no other option, if you want to keep putting people recently convicted in prison
13:41
then the attacks will begin and the blame will be laid at his feet
13:46
for the fact that somebody has been released from prison early and gone on to commit an offence, where the alternative would have been to leave somebody
13:52
who's just been convicted for the same offence on the streets. Don't worry about the details
13:56
just shout something about Dartmoor. It could all begin to fall apart
14:00
but it's not falling apart yet. And that's why it's a simple question, a nice, easy question
14:06
Why? Why are you optimistic about Andy Burnham? 03456060973. And if you want to, you could maybe stick a so
14:17
I think he's already put a foot wrong in Ireland. I know that the great political commentators of our time
14:24
in kneecap were leading chance of Andy Burnham is a bleep at Reading this weekend because he has
14:30
ruled out any immediate or quick referendum on the future of Ireland on a united Ireland
14:36
So he's already put a foot wrong there. I don't know that that will seep back much to the mainland
14:43
but it's evidence that the personality is going to be as crucial as the policy. So why are you optimistic
14:52
about Andy Burnham. 0345 6060 973 And then well actually let just leave that for now If you ring me on that I spare you any other questions and wriggles
15:05
I just want, yeah, come at that cold. Come at that cold and come at that honest
15:08
Why are you optimistic about Andy Burnham? Take a moment to think about it and then put it into words
15:16
Because I really want to know. James O'Brien on LBC. Ten minutes after ten is the time
15:23
And I should have made a little bit more about the fact that that is the word he is going to use today
15:28
to describe his vision for the UK. I don't know whether or not we can take any credit for this
15:33
but Andy Burnham will say today, in his first speech to Parliament as Prime Minister
15:37
that a, quote, sense of optimism is at the heart of his vision about Britain's future
15:43
So, either we have stumbled into the same space by complete coincidence
15:46
or we've read the room very correctly and got the measure of Andy Burnham's project from the get-go
15:52
or Andy Burnham is being, like the rest of the country, tuning in religiously to this radio programme
15:58
and focusing on Mondays on the state of the Burnham Optimism Barometer
16:02
and concluding that that is what people want. He will promise to unlock a feeling of positivity and possibility
16:09
in every part of the country. I mean, I'd love it. I would absolutely love to see it
16:15
But, of course, the question is whether or not you think he can do it
16:19
And if you're currently feeling optimistic, then, yeah, you must have some sense inside that he will be able to do it
16:27
Which is why the question this morning, for you, the first question this morning, the first question of the week
16:32
even though it's not Monday, as I keep reminding myself, is why do you feel optimistic about Andy Burnham
16:40
And then the second question will no doubt become, what does he need to do
16:45
What do we need to see to sustain that optimism? Steve points out Burnham is getting a relatively easy ride at the moment
16:52
The right-wing media are holding back until it really matters. Then we'll see the usual onslaught
16:57
Hillary says maybe it's just because he is positive and cheerful. Starmer seemed so miserable all the time
17:03
And the first criticism of the day comes in from Jamie. You cited a Doris from Penge as being a rabid numpty
17:09
My wife's grandmother lived in Penge, the posh bit, Crystal Palace Park Road
17:12
and her name was Doris. she was wonderful she wouldn't have liked the footballification of where we are and would have
17:18
enjoyed listening to you so keep up the good work i can't i mean i took a call from a doris didn't i
17:22
some time ago who was furious with me about using that name as a as a synonym for what jamie describes
17:28
as numptiness so i i can't um i don't know i can't i can't cite a fictional commentator without
17:37
upsetting somebody because somebody nice who doesn't deserve to be lumped in with people of
17:41
that. Even Nigel's, I think, probably. Used to be Nigel's, Rogers and Derek's on this programme. If somebody called
17:46
Nigel, Roger or Derek rang in, the chances of them being UKIP supporters was about 80%
17:51
But of course, the 20% who weren't got really upset at the characterisation
17:55
But on we go. Why are you optimistic about Andy Byrne? And Carol is in Morden. Carol, what do you reckon
18:02
Hello, James. Thank you for talking to me again. You're very welcome
18:07
I'm optimistic because what we talked about last time, Chris Packham's emergency briefing
18:14
was shown to a number of MPs and business leaders and things, but I'm not
18:20
sure it was shown to mayors. So I suppose I'm hoping he hasn't seen it yet
18:26
And when he sees it, he will obviously immediately be prompted to
18:32
start to do some of the things they're suggesting, which I still don't know
18:36
yet because I still haven't seen it. There's a lot of unknown knowns here, Carol
18:40
and there are a few known unknowns as well. But, I mean, are you actually feeling optimistic about Andy Burnham
18:46
That's the crucial question. I am. He left his dog in Manchester
18:50
so it wouldn't upset the cat at 10 Downing Street. Is that true
18:55
Yes. Well, some people will hate him for doing it. How can anyone turn their back on their beloved canine
19:00
Some people might see that as a negative. He's up there quite a lot as well
19:05
So, look back. I'm sure his dog will be fine. The last person to arrive in Parliament off the back of an internal party struggle was Rishi Sunak
19:13
There was a little bit of optimism there until he appointed Suella Braverman Home Secretary in the afternoon of his first day
19:21
He hasn't done anything like that. In words, leaving pets out of it, what is it about Andy Burnham that is reaching parts that previous Prime Ministers at this point hadn't quite reached
19:32
He's talking to people. Yes. He's asking people. He's brought down the bus fare
19:37
I think he's made a minimum bus fare. Which will affect a lot of people
19:43
I like the first thing you said about talking to people. He gives an impression..
19:48
That he'll listen. ...of being a normal human. Yeah, he does. And who was the last Prime Minister that we would have put in that category
19:59
Well, to be honest, I would have put Theresa May. Yeah, maybe. But as far as I understood it
20:05
Theresa May didn't get involved with the rest of the Conservative Party in the bar
20:11
And in the end, she decided to resign. She did seem a little..
20:16
You could imagine meeting somebody like Theresa May in real life and not feeling that they were robotic
20:21
or that they'd come off a conveyor belt or that they were a complete sort of inauthentic confection
20:26
like Boris Johnson or, and I'm afraid, I still haven't got the words to describe whatever it was that Liz Truss was
20:32
But she didn't seem like a real person or an ordinary person
20:38
And did you ever see the birthday card? No. That had the Queen on... Oh, no, it must have been a joke
20:44
It had the Queen on the front. And the Queen said, I could cope with Boris Johnson and somebody else
20:50
but Liz Truss was too much because she died soon after she came in
20:53
She did. Although, I mean, as you say, it's a joke. I don't think anybody held Liz Truss personally responsible for that
20:59
But it spoke to a public mood and a political mood, didn't it? What is it then
21:04
What is it about Andy Burnham that we feel puts him, at the moment, in
21:08
a slightly enviable position of engendering or inspiring optimism? He wears his vulnerability
21:14
on his chest, says Seamus and Hemel. We all like that. And Kate says, my dad is called
21:20
Derek James. He did vote for Brexit and then he moved to France. He is a numpty
21:24
And Kevin says, why are you only asking for positive feedback? Well, optimism
21:28
Kevin, is genuinely a positive feeling. So if the Prime Minister is talking about engendering optimism, and we are running the
21:35
weekly Burnham Optimism Barometer, and therefore we find ourselves asking, why are you feeling
21:40
optimistic? I'd have thought that that was fairly obvious. But I did say several times, you can also
21:45
ring in and say, well, you're not feeling optimistic. But I fear that that will be a little
21:50
bit like shouting Dartmoor at the prisons crisis. It will just be people parroting positions that
21:55
they haven't really thought through or don't understand. No offence to you personally, Kevin
22:00
But it's too early, I think, to be picking apart policy-based positions
22:04
so you are looking at personality-based phenomena. And what most people recognise, whether they are clear on what policies they expect or want or not
22:13
is that Andy Burnham has hit the ground in a way that feels authentic and persuasive
22:18
and therefore people are, I think, feeling optimistic. And if there was any doubt at all about using that word as a basis for a conversation It would have been I think it would have been abolished by the fact that he choosing that word at the very heart of his first statement to the House of Commons later today
22:36
Andy Burnham saying that a sense of optimism is at the heart of his vision about Britain's future
22:43
If you want to introduce a slightly more negative element, I suppose we could address the question
22:47
of what there is to be optimistic about at the moment, given a backdrop. And I speak as someone
22:53
who wrote a book called How They Broke Britain, looking at the disastrous impacts upon this country
22:59
of everything from climate change denial right through to Brexit and beyond
23:03
What is there to be optimistic about? How can Andy Burnham unlock a feeling of positivity and possibility
23:11
I mean, I'm probably guilty of what I'm about to describe here. I'm a little bit addicted, perhaps, to the critique of a country
23:21
that has been brought so low by all of the things that I list on a daily basis on this programme
23:26
and then a tribute to the ludicrously biased media. How can Andy Burnham unlock a feeling of positivity and possibility
23:36
So, question one, why are you optimistic? Of course, if you're not, you can answer the second question
23:42
How can he, how might he unlock, these are his words, not mine, a feeling of positivity and possibility
23:49
and then if we're going to look at comparisons we should probably make the comparison with Keir Starmer
23:53
rather than previous Tory prime ministers and just look at the question of how or what he has done differently
24:01
in the first two months of his premiership in the first two months of his leadership
24:07
why do you feel differently about Andy Burnham than you did at this point about Keir Starmer
24:13
because it's in again how many do we have this week? Nine so we've gone 888999 on the Burnham Optimism Barometer
24:21
that the optimism that Andy Burnham is currently inspiring among people who both listen to this programme
24:27
and respond to the weekly invitation to tell us what their mark out of 10 is on the Optimism Barometer
24:32
is 9. Why? There you go, you don't even have to feel it to answer that question, do you
24:39
Why is Andy Burnham currently inspiring optimism? even if you're not feeling it as a political commentator
24:47
as an observer, as an armchair yst. What do you think he's doing that explains why
24:52
not only are people feeling a sense of optimism, but they are feeling it so much that he will today
24:59
stick it at the very heart of his first prime ministerial speech in Parliament
25:04
Can't be a coincidence, can it? It is an era of optimism
25:08
How long will it last? Crucially, for me at least, where is it coming from
25:13
It's half past ten, and Lottie Morley has your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC
25:18
Three minutes after ten, you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
25:23
I'm going to introduce you later in the programme to somebody else whose critique of the British media helps to explain much of the madness
25:30
that has engulfed us in recent years. It really is an insane list when you think about it
25:35
I've been thinking quite a lot over the last few days, the last couple of weeks actually
25:40
about the extraordinary result of you, Les, the way that children's lungs have been found to be measurably
25:48
and considerably improving as a consequence of that policy and that policy extension presided over by Sadiq Khan
25:56
and thinking about the question of how can people end up believing something
26:01
so obviously and dangerously wrong. The whole country went mad about you, Les
26:06
Keir Starmer lost a by-election and then sort of sought to blame it on people's opinions about you, Les
26:12
without pointing out that their opinions were absolutely rancid and wrong. And then you look at the long list of things that are much bigger examples
26:20
of a population being persuaded to believe things that are demonstrably untrue
26:25
whether it would be the wisdom of austerity, the wisdom of Brexit, the probity of Boris Johnson, the competence of Liz Truss
26:33
the likelihood of Benjamin Netanyahu proving to be good for either Israel
26:37
or the wider world, the obvious depravity of Donald Trump, the insanity of climate change, denial
26:44
all of these things that are huge, era-defining issues and about which many, many British people have been persuaded
26:51
to believe the polar opposite, ULES becomes a kind of, I don't know, like a totem of that process
26:59
And Burnham, crucially, I think, to distinguish himself from Keir Starmer, is not going to play according to those rules
27:06
at least that's the intention from the start whether it works or not we will
27:10
have to wait and see but I think part of the reason why I'm optimistic is that he appears
27:14
to recognise how rotten things are in the state of the UK
27:20
and he has already quite early doors acknowledged the role that the media
27:26
plays in that, I don't know whether that involves him painting an enormous target
27:30
on his back or whether it will actually turn out to have some salience
27:34
but Keir Starmer never did Keir Starmer always seemed to be playing according to the rules
27:39
as established by the rule breakers, the austerity fans, the Brexiters, the Liz Truss admirers
27:46
the Benjamin Netanyahu apologists, the climate change deniers. He never really seemed to take the fight to the people
27:51
that have turned our country into a mockery of what it could and should be
27:56
Up to and including, of course, all of the people who were architects of this disaster now claiming that it was all somebody else's fault
28:02
which seems to be a very popular pastime on the far right of British politics
28:07
So, why are we optimistic? What do we want to see? William's in Paisley
28:11
William, is there much optimism in Scotland, do you think? Yeah, there's some optimism
28:17
I'm a Scottish nationalist, but I'm also a socialist, and I'm looking at Andy Burnham as a fresh breath of air
28:22
Yeah. But he's got a big problem in front of himself. The one I would really like to see him tapping right away
28:28
is the genocide in Palestine. How they can justify sending weapons to this state
28:34
when America covers them with everything they need. And even the American public now have turned against the Israeli state
28:40
But he's got the health service. He's got a problem with that. The Tories have destroyed the health service year after year
28:46
and Labour were good at it. He's got the House of Lords, which people are not voted in
28:51
That's democracy. There's no democracy now in Britain. Because you can walk in, as he's said, as Prime Minister
28:58
you can walk into the House of Lords, you've got a royal family nobody can vote on
29:02
whether they want them or no, where they'll stop. You've got all these things
29:05
What do you want him to do first? I don't really know, but I'd like to see him bring in
29:10
proportional representation to bring democracy back to this country because if a third of the people vote a government in
29:16
that surely is wrong. And also the genocide. It really gets to me
29:21
I never used to phone in radio programmes at all, but it got in my guts how Britain could justify what was going on
29:28
I mean, the defense is that our contribution technologically to some of the weapons capabilities is relatively tiny
29:36
And on the political stage, the recognition of Palestine by Keir Starmer's government is arguably more significant than some of the other things that could be done in a policy framework
29:48
And, of course, there's also the incoming sanctions on the occupied territories, on the illegally occupied territories
29:55
So, I mean, my problem here, as someone who chronicles it, quite tirelessly is that we let the perfect be the enemy of the good
30:06
I mean, if I were to tell you that one son or one child of a prominent foreign leader
30:11
has come out today and said that the Falkland Islands are Argentinian
30:16
and I gave you a choice, I said, is it A, Donald Trump, B, Marine Le Pen, or C, Benjamin Netanyahu, what would you say
30:22
Probably Benjamin Netanyahu. Yeah, so Benjamin Netanyahu's son comes out and says something
30:27
that is absolutely antithetical to British interests and British values. He says the Falklands belong to Argentina
30:35
and his rationale for doing it is the Labour government recognising Palestine
30:40
The level of anger and reaction to what they've done there among right-wing Israelis is so high
30:47
that I worry a little bit that people like you don't realise how far they've already gone
30:52
I agree with you, but I put my trust in the Israeli people
30:56
the Jews in this country and everywhere else who have stood up for Palestine. I'm going to Ashoshan
31:01
You've got a huge level of support for the activities in Gaza among the Israeli public
31:07
Of course. But at the end of the day, I'm looking towards the progressive Jews
31:13
who are willing to look at the truth. The trouble with states nowadays is
31:16
they've got too much influence and it's not always about the truth. At the end of the day, it's about morals
31:22
You might not be sending hundreds of weapons. You might be sending a bone arrow
31:26
but still the morals behind it. And if you show that you don't believe in this
31:30
other states will follow. That's a sad story. What do you want him to do then, realistically and meaningfully
31:35
And plausibly, William, and that's a tricky word to use in this context
31:40
but I'm standing by it. Plausibly, what do you want him to do? I want him to declare that he's not going to support
31:47
a genocidal state and also highlight things... Plausibly? But highlight things that the British probably don't know about
31:55
the friends of Israel, the people going on holidays there, the companies in this
32:00
country who still send them money to kill innocent civilians. Yeah, but now you're
32:04
lumping in everybody with Israeli family or Israeli heritage, in with the people
32:10
who are undertaking the atrocities in Gaza, and you know, polling that I just mentioned, notwithstanding
32:16
there are plenty of people who are profoundly unhappy with elements of Benjamin Netanyahu's administration who
32:21
don't necessarily deserve to be punished for the actions of their leaders any more than you would deserve
32:25
to be punished for the actions of David Cameron or indeed Boris Johnson
32:31
The other story at the weekend that William will be aware of, but you may not be
32:35
was an extraordinary piece of footage that was posted by Itamar Ben-Gavir
32:40
the security minister in Netanyahu's government, that essentially showed animations of young Palestinian men
32:51
looking quite healthy and well-fed and then being put through the Israeli prison system
32:55
and coming out looking emaciated and broken, and he was dancing around celebrating that
33:01
If, I mean, another country perhaps, or another ally of the UK had done that
33:06
you would expect perhaps some sort of response from the top of government, and maybe there will be
33:11
but there hasn't been yet. Andrew, also in Scotland, is in Lanark
33:14
Andrew, what would you like to say? Hi, I think... I'm really glad that you're having this conversation
33:22
because I've been shouting at the radio for about a year now, The trouble with politics in this country now
33:28
is that we have too many politicians who don't believe in anything
33:34
They don't believe in... They've got no ism. They don't believe in capitalism, liberalism, socialism
33:40
Some of them are racism. They're into that, but they're not the ones I really want to talk about
33:45
Not since... Don't forget we're talking about optimism. Another ism, but not the kind of ism that you were talking about
33:53
when you rang in. No, but the producer researcher that I was talking to says
33:58
you know, what is it about Andy Burnham? Yes. Whether you believe in his politics or agree with him
34:03
I didn't vote Labour. I've not voted Labour since Blair. Crikey. I know
34:08
And I struggle with it. But I just need, I want to vote for somebody
34:13
who I think believes in what they're doing, takes the job seriously, and wants to serve their community
34:20
serve their country. Theresa May, I didn't like her politics, but I believe she believed in someone
34:26
What's the word that we're looking for here? Because you're the second person to pick up on that gap
34:31
that hiatus between Theresa May and Andy Burnham. And that, of course, puts Keir Starmer, in a way
34:36
in the same categories as Boris Johnson and Liz Truss, but somebody who just didn't connect at all
34:42
I would put Cameron Johnson, Sunak, Truss and Starmer all in the same field
34:50
not in the same pen, but I'd put them in the same field because they were there because they wanted to further their political career
34:58
Boris Johnson let Theresa May take that leadership because he knew she had a poison chalice
35:04
because Brexit was such a disaster. And I think he sat back and thought
35:09
no, I ain't taking over now after all that falafel. Which Burnham definitely didn't do
35:13
Burnham probably thought his chances of getting into Downing Street had disappeared for a long time when Keir Starmer won the general election
35:19
but cometh the hour cometh the man. What is it that we're talking about, though
35:23
Because, I mean, it's my job to put it into words. But, yeah, but what does he believe in
35:31
I think he'd be... I'm not going to agree with all of his policy. I've got a feeling once he gets his feet under the table
35:37
he's going to show his true colours because I think he really is. He talks about the years of conservative government
35:45
particularly Thatcher, and there's a real nip in his voice like he really does not like it
35:52
I think that's true. And hopefully he's going to try and... I'm hoping he covers... stays in the centre a little bit
36:01
See, for some people, and William just proved this in Paisley, for some people the situation in the Middle East
36:08
is going to be the defining issue of any Prime Minister and I don't know, to be honest with you, what is plausible and what is not
36:15
but I think that Starmer went far enough to invoke the rage
36:19
and the hideous abuse of Netanyahu and his allies, and Burnham has already pledged to go further
36:26
I don't know that that will ever be enough to satisfy some people, many people, rightly or wrongly
36:31
I'm just describing what I see. And then the other thing is, because you're talking about essentially being able to do things
36:37
and being able to do things, whether you're a household or a prime minister, involves money. And I probably find myself coming back to Brexit a lot
36:45
Now, you, presumably, given what you've just told me about your voting record
36:49
you weren't that troubled by Brexit, or you weren't that... No, I thought it was an absolute disaster
36:54
Oh, right. I thought it was awful. It's probably one of the worst things that's ever happened to this country
37:00
in the history of the country. It's up there in the top five. And that's why, for me, and he's kind of made some noises
37:06
and he seems to be moving in roughly the right direction, but in the same way that some people will never really be able to get over Israel
37:12
as the defining issue at the moment, I mean, I can't really see any form of recovery in this country coming into play until we're
37:19
back in the single market or the customs union. Absolutely, 100%. Right
37:23
And Starmer didn even go there Starmer did the opposite in fact didn he Starmer did the opposite And you know the funny thing is as well what really plays on my mind is when it came to Brexit I wasn really sure why I was voting against it I just knew instinctively that
37:40
it was a massive backward step. Why would we spend decades building a relationship with
37:46
all these different trades and all these different... Just to go and walk away. And it was all
37:53
It was all the whole campaign, Brexit campaign, was just a massive big lie
37:58
Yeah, well, we know that now. I've still got some sympathy for people who fell for it at the time
38:02
I don't have any sympathy for people who are still pretending that it was anything other than a disaster
38:06
No, absolutely not. What are you like? This is going to sound like a weird question
38:10
and I'm a bit late for the break already, but I'm trying to pin down. The best word we've got so far is authentic
38:15
If you're trying to look at what Theresa May and Andy Burnham have in common
38:20
but which David Cameron, Liz Truss, Boris Johnson, than Rishi Sunak and Keir Starmer did not have
38:25
The nearest we've got is authentic. I'm trying to work out how fair that is
38:29
How... So, just think about you for a minute, right, Andrew? Who you are
38:34
And I'd drop you in a social situation, right? Or a work situation
38:40
How confident are you that people will see the real you? Oh, 100%
38:46
It's held me back, to be honest. Okay, that's interesting. That is authenticity
38:51
but what I mean is you don't get held back by nervousness
38:56
or crippled by social anxiety or you're not too busy trying to second guess what people think
39:01
What you see with Andrew in Lanark is what you get. I'm very lucky that I've always had..
39:07
I've been articulate and confident enough to stand my ground. I know it's difficult for some people
39:11
and I wouldn't judge them based on that, but the word that keeps ringing round my head
39:17
about these people I've just mentioned, the Burnhams and the Gordon Browns
39:20
belief. They believe in something. And the others didn't. All they believed
39:27
in was their own... To be cynical, we don't have to pinpoint what it is they believe in
39:33
We just have to acknowledge that we look at them and see someone who we believe believes
39:36
in something. And that is what distinguishes... Yeah, there it is. That's money in the bank for me
39:41
That would bring me back to Labour. I think... I'm watching him
39:47
I'm hoping he's going to bring me back to Labour. And he doesn't have to go
39:50
back to that, what you see is what you get, because you've now brought Gordon Brown
39:54
into the conversation. Brown didn't... Not, yeah. Sadly, he couldn't quite communicate
40:00
who he was and what he believed in, in a way that a more successful politician can do
40:04
or has to. And I think he's done it better since he's... Yeah, he has
40:09
I've earned him on the radio the other day on LBC, talking about a subject that he's championing
40:14
and he's a very, very intelligent man. He is, Well, obviously, and there is a truly selfless politician
40:22
There is somebody for whom putting the welfare of the country and often the most vulnerable people in the country
40:29
is not just a priority but an actual raison d'etre, a guiding light for his entire personal and political life
40:36
But partly as a consequence of what I was describing a moment ago, that curious cocktail of propaganda and misinformation
40:44
he was appallingly treated in this country by the media, most obviously, and latterly by the electorate
40:51
It's 10.40, culminating, of course, in Nick Clegg deciding to hop into bed with David Cameron
40:55
and inflict five years of austerity upon an entirely undeserving country that was so gaslit and groomed into believing the opposite
41:02
of what was obviously true that we ended up with a referendum on Brexit. You talk about the job that Andy Burnham has
41:10
it's a budging miracle that there's any optimism whatsoever when you look at the..
41:15
I mean, you've got the liars and the cynics claiming, oh it was them that broke Britain
41:19
when of course it was Brexit that broke Britain in the first instance. Everything that has followed
41:23
has either followed as a political and logical consequence of Brexit or crucially as a social consequence
41:29
of allowing liars and racists to have the platform to rule the roost
41:35
1049 is the time we should catch up with Natasha as well because it is, despite the fact that there have been seven
41:41
in the last ten years it is a really big deal. We have a new
41:45
Prime Minister speaking for the first time in Parliament. And at the opposite
41:49
end of the important scale, Nigel Farage gets re-sworn in as an MP today after his humiliating
41:55
embarrassment of a by-election that he claimed would be a battle between..
41:59
Who did he claim it would be a battle between? Again, was it the people and..
42:03
and Wile E. Coyote? Was it... I know that's the new film, isn't it? Acme versus..
42:09
The people versus... Oh, I can't remember. But anyway, he beat a bin
42:15
So, congratulations. James O'Brien on LBC. Here's 10.53. It's a funny one, that
42:22
I love it when that happens. It's sort of unexpected. Nuggets emerge in the course of our conversation
42:28
because I wouldn't have put Theresa May on the same list as Andy Burnham
42:32
and then every other Prime Minister that we've had since 2010 on the other list
42:37
I might even have made a case for feeling that David Cameron was perhaps being a little bit unfairly treated
42:42
But no, I wouldn't make that case now. Something about Theresa May obviously resonated in an area of authenticity
42:51
You could have disagreed with everything she said, but you had a sense of public service and authenticity
42:57
And, I mean, I just thought Starmer had that, but he never quite cracked it, did he
43:02
Clearly motivated by public service and his career before politics as well as his career in politics, but he never success..
43:09
I mean, listen, it's that old adage, isn't it? It's all about authenticity, and if you can fake that, you can fake anything
43:15
You don't know whether it's true or not. It's about how it feels. But some people still think Boris Johnson is authentic or was authentic
43:20
the most confected character in probably the history of British politics, except possibly Count Bimface, although I don't know who is more credible or authentic, actually
43:30
the pretend alien or the pretend Prime Minister. But there it is, lots of people seeing parallels between Burnham and May
43:36
Natasha Clarke, LBC's political editor, is with me, because, of course, despite the fact that there have been seven in a decade
43:42
and there was only one for the duration of my schooling, a new Prime Minister arriving in Parliament is a very big deal
43:49
Of course it's a big deal, James. But, yes, actually, you're speaking about comparing previous Prime Ministers to each other
43:56
You're not going to like this. Some people in government have been comparing Andy Burnham to Boris Johnson
44:03
Potentially unfairly. Well, Johnson did optimism. He made people feel a little bit better about things
44:08
even when people like me were pointing out that the emperor was stark rollock naked
44:12
Yes. You know, yes. And I think there are similarities to be drawn. You know, charismatic is probably not the same as authentic, right
44:19
And Boris Johnson had charisma, but maybe he didn't have authenticity or, you know, an interesting relationship with the truth, shall we say
44:26
And I don't think people are saying that that's what Andy Burnham has, but he obviously has an ability to connect with people
44:31
on a level that Keir Starmer just did not have. He had that act of public service
44:36
but he could not connect with people on a one-on-one level in the way that Andy Burnham absolutely has shown
44:41
that over the summer he can do. So today is going to be a bit of a different challenge for Andy Burnham
44:46
He's giving his first Commons statement. We're expecting that today around sort of 3.30 or so
44:51
And he's not spoken in the House of Commons for some time, not since he was last an MP back in 2017 and he gave his sort of farewell speech to the Commons when he decided So that part part of a decade isn it It a big enough gap for a reset a recalibration I think And Westminster has totally changed since then James
45:07
It's completely changed beyond all recognition, not least because of what happened with the aftermath of the Brexit vote
45:13
several different Prime Ministers, and this sense that politics and whoever has been Prime Minister
45:18
has really struggled to create and generate that change that people have been crying out for, for, well, Andy Burnham says
45:24
40 years. So it's going to be an interesting moment to see whether he can convey that hope
45:29
and that optimism into the House of Commons chamber, which is a very different way of performing. That's a really good point. And actually, trying to pin down what we've been
45:36
trying to pin down today, somebody like Farage can come out and claim that the political
45:41
establishment is this, that and the other and his acolytes who have either paid a lot of money or
45:45
not paid a lot of money to get jobs in his party can claim that they did this and they did that
45:51
while inviting all the people who did it into the party as defectors
45:55
No one really believes him. Farage was obviously desperate from the start to be part of the thing that he constantly condemns and criticises
46:02
It's just that racism had become a big no-no for every major political party in the 1980s and 1990s
46:09
When Burnham talks about wanting to undo 40 years or reset 40 years
46:14
even though he's been in previous governments, I kind of believe him, actually
46:19
I think he sat in Manchester and thought, why do we do things like we do things
46:23
And he hadn't had those thoughts before he got there, but it is sitting in Manchester and looking at Westminster
46:28
that has made him think... This doesn't work. And yeah, his books, have you read his book
46:33
No, I haven't. It's quite a quick one. You could probably get it through in a few hours, I'm sure
46:38
But it's so interesting to hear his ideas about why Westminster doesn't work
46:42
and how the whole system essentially needs to be rewired and reworked differently. And he makes a very compelling argument
46:47
and he's arguably done so over the summer incredibly well. I think what the problem is is that he faces the same issues
46:55
that Keir Starmer will face in terms of the limits of what he can do, the capacity, the money, the finances, the civil service
47:01
all of these age-old issues. You can't rip up 40 years and rewire them in the state all in one go
47:06
It's going to take you some time. Well, Starmer didn't want to and didn't try to. Starmer didn't want to. I do think Burnham does
47:11
Yeah, many of us became quite quickly disillusioned with Keir Starmer was precisely because he was playing on the pitch that has been, you know
47:19
the lines and the goals have been put in place on that pitch by profoundly dishonest political movements and biased media
47:26
Burnham does seem to want to do things differently. So we'll wait and see. I mean, he won't do much today
47:32
Will Starmer be in Parliament today? I was thinking about this earlier. I think no, probably not
47:36
I think, you know, you don't want to be detracting from your successor's first big moment in Parliament
47:40
There might be, he might sit in the back and watch, from Parliament today
47:46
And yes, his second Cabinet meeting today, he wants to talk about hope
47:50
he wants to talk about water and utilities, bringing them back into public ownership
47:54
We're going to talk about that next, actually. Yeah, well, we're not getting that doom and gloom moment
47:58
that we got from Keir Starmer this time exactly two years ago, nearly, just over
48:02
It was when he and Rachel Reeves gave that Rose Garden speech saying, of course I want to make things better
48:07
but it's going to get worse before it gets there. And we're not going to get that from Andy Burnham today
48:10
Who pledged in January of 2025 that they would categorically not be undertaking
48:17
any form of reshuffle of their shadow cabinet before the next general election
48:21
Was it A, Count Bimface, B, Mr Blobley, or C, Kemi Badenow? I think it's all three, isn't it? Technically
48:26
And who has now done it? Kemi Badenow. Let's give her her proper title
48:30
Kemi, I don't make gaffs, Badenow. Kemi, I don't make gaffs, Badenow. Look, she has had her top team in for two years
48:36
I think it's not completely unheard of that you do think actually before a general election..
48:40
Well, then don't say you're never going to. Yeah, she shouldn't have said that. She never should have said that
48:44
She thinks there's going to be an election within the next 12 months and Westminster is now feverishly starting to speculate again
48:50
about when Andy Burnham's going to call an election and go to the polls. Somebody said to me they think it's going to be as early as May
48:56
which is very soon. You've got to be on the front foot if you're Andy Burnham
49:00
And Kimmy Badenot thinks that now is the time to reshuffle her top team
49:04
So out is Mel Stride, out is Priti Patel. Were you surprised at Stride
49:08
I mean, he's probably one of the only recognisable names in the shadow cabinet
49:12
Yeah, he's dead, certainly. And this is not a consequence of James Cleverley announcing
49:16
that he's going to have a crack at being London Mayor. She would have done this anyway? She would have done this anyway, but this was a good opportunity, I think
49:21
to start that process of happening. But yes, James Cleverley, obviously, you know, running for London Mayor
49:26
meant that she'd have to do that a little bit earlier than potentially she wanted to do so
49:30
But yes, Mel Stride, I think, a very confident and combative media performer
49:35
I'm not sure that many people have heard of Andrew Griffith, but it's... He was a Bosnian in the Treasury when Truss was Prime Minister
49:40
He was indeed. No, I think we're thinking of someone else. Are we? You're thinking of Chris Philp
49:45
Am I? I thought Griffith was in sort of, or certainly a cheerleader for Trusses
49:50
I can't remember. No, I can't. I mean, here is the problem that they all face
49:55
But yes, I think it's essentially for her about bringing the loyal people back in, right
49:59
So she had to reach across the party when she lost the election to bring in these big beasts
50:04
to try and stabilise the Tory party, to try and get that credibility back from these people that have been around a long time
50:09
and now I think she's feeling a bit more confident that she can basically put in her loyalists
50:14
the people that she wants to promote, that she wants to see as big
50:17
And so this is going to be her essentially getting her team ready for when that next election might come
50:22
and putting what she feels is the best people in the post. I don't know if you do this
50:26
Do you think there'll be an election next year? I don't know, maybe. No, I don't know either
50:30
I'm asking my political editor or our political editor. I think if I were in number 10
50:35
I would want to wait a couple more months. I would want the polls to be reaching 29, 30%
50:39
So maybe then. And I'd want to see a string of policies
50:44
that I've at least started to roll out. That you can campaign on. That you can campaign on. And I mean, key among them
50:47
I think my instincts were correct, he was Chief Secretary to the Treasury. Oh, well done
50:51
When Liz Truss was Prime Minister, so he was third in command
50:56
Financial Secretary to the Treasury, when Liz Truss's mini-budget caused a run on the guilt market
51:02
and almost bankrupted the country. So who here wouldn't make him Chancellor? Yeah, that's going to be a really tough sell
51:07
That's an incredible appointment, even by Kemi Baden-Ockstannes. That might be our first question
51:11
Who in the current front line... Is Quartel still in Parliament? He's not
51:17
So, that's it. He is the most senior Tory, still in Parliament
51:23
responsible for Liz Truss's financial apocalypse, and she's made him Shadow Chancellor
51:28
I think I might be you. I love her. I love her. I've said it before and I'll say it again. And she never makes gas
51:31
She never makes gas. That's just fantastic. Who wouldn't do that? Who wouldn't look at the political landscape and think
51:35
I know what we need. We need someone who's got Liz Truss's financial apocalypse on his CV
51:40
and very little else. It's 11.03. James O'Brien on LBC. It's six minutes after 11 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
51:51
Okay. I have a horrible feeling that on one issue, and no doubt on many issues
52:01
but I noticed something this morning that actually took me by surprise
52:05
and left me feeling a little bit embarrassed. And it was a story about the renationalisation
52:11
or the taking into public ownership of utilities. Most obviously, and I think most immediately, water companies
52:22
But one of the big things we're expecting Andy Burnham to draw attention to today when he addresses the House for the first time in 16 years from the front bench not in Parliament for the first time in 16 years six weeks since he became Prime Minister
52:36
He will use the statement this afternoon to put public control of services
52:41
at the heart of his priorities for the coming months. There's going to be other stuff about
52:48
the cost of living, about the economy and about getting a handle, a proper handle on the costs
52:54
of things and as we've heard optimism optimism optimism is going to be the equivalent to tony
52:59
blair's education education education he has determined we make this the moment we bring back
53:04
hope but one of the key and major platforms here is going to be legislation currently under
53:11
consideration to make it easier to bring struggling utilities like thames water under public control
53:18
so rather than worry about having to pay off shareholders you would just put them into
53:24
insolvency proceedings and take control of them afterwards. I'm not going to apologise for lacking
53:28
the expertise to comment on the finer detail of this sort of thing, because it's a phone-in show
53:33
and hopefully you will have some of this expertise. But here's the funny thing, right
53:38
You know I wang on almost endlessly about how gaslit this country is, and then I give you the
53:45
list of all the things that prove it, all of the things where people, whether you're talking about
53:49
Brexit or you, Les, all of the things where people have been successfully persuaded to believe the
53:53
opposite of what was relatively obvious and obviously true. I'm 54 years old
54:03
And I read that a similar age to Andy Burnham, actually. I did a politics A-level in 1990
54:11
Then I took a few years faffing about. When I got into the media, I was not writing about politics
54:18
I was writing about show business. But I've been here for over 20 years
54:22
A job immediately prior to this also involved daily discussions of the sort of current affairs agenda
54:28
So I'm quite, what's the word that I'm looking for? Engaged. I'm quite politically engaged
54:34
I'm quite well-versed in matters political. And if I had to point to one thing that I'm proud of
54:41
it's my ability to see through the gaslighting and propaganda that typifies so much of our media
54:47
I guess I point it out to you every single day, and I will never stop doing so
54:54
So I was quite surprised to note my gut reaction to this story
54:59
when I read it this morning. And I don't quite... I certainly don't like it
55:04
And I don't fully get it. Burnham will face an early test of his commitment to public control
55:11
as he considers legislation to make it easier to bring struggling utilities such as Thameswater under public control
55:17
what's your gut reaction to i mean it's not necessarily re-nationalization in the purest
55:24
sense of the phrase but bringing it under public control as opposed to private control
55:29
so the idea that you take massive utilities in this case water but you'd also of course have
55:35
energy transport any infrastructural utility that was sold off by successive governments a way of
55:43
raising money by selling, if you like, the country's infrastructure to private sector companies
55:51
which would never have worked if the private sector companies didn't think that they would make a hell of a lot more money out of it
55:58
than it was going to cost them to buy them. So logically, that money is money that would otherwise have made its way
56:04
into the public coffers, but instead makes its way into the pockets of the shareholders in companies like Thameswater or energy companies
56:13
what's your gut reaction to that phrase public control? Or, indeed, nationalisation
56:22
Because mine, I'm really embarrassed to tell you this, mine is negative
56:29
And I know that it shouldn't be. And the reason why I know that it shouldn't be
56:33
is because of what I just described to you. Here is something worth a huge sum of money to the country
56:40
well actually here is something objectively worth a huge sum of money
56:45
we're going to sell it in order to raise a huge sum of money but who is going to buy it answer
56:52
somebody or something who believes that they will make a heck of a lot more money out of owning it
56:56
than they're going to have to pay to own it so listen this is not exactly rocket science it's it's
57:01
the most basic arithmetic and and capitalism in a nutshell but here is a railway that belongs to
57:09
the country. We need to raise a ton of money in the shortish term. So what are we going to do
57:15
Well, let's sell the railway. Well, who are we going to sell it to? Well, let's sell it to that person. Well, why would he want to buy a railway? Well, because he thinks he's going to
57:21
make a heck of a lot more money out of owning that railway in the longish term than he is
57:28
going to have to pay to buy it. So I can logically persuade myself that public ownership and
57:35
nationalisation are not just desirable, but actually pant-wettingly, obviously, the best thing for a country to do. For utilities to be publicly owned means that profits make
57:47
their way back into the treasury. Back into the treasury. And in my... What's the word
57:54
that I want? I suppose in my brain... Here's the thing. I thought I was in favour of this
58:02
and in my bones I am. And yet when I read this story this morning
58:07
I caught myself thinking, uh-oh, because I was raised in a country
58:12
where privatisation was sold to the British public as the best thing since sliced bread
58:17
British rail was a byword for institutional incompetence where it couldn't possibly ever be well run
58:24
unless it was taken out of public control and put into the private sector. And I can point out how ridiculous all of this is
58:29
but i am a victim of precisely the sort of gaslighting and media grooming that i spend my
58:36
entire life haranguing other people for having fallen for because somewhere inside me there is a
58:42
gut reaction and it's not even that negative it's not even oh don't be ridiculous everything will be
58:47
awful by christmas it's more well this is this isn't really gonna this is going to be too difficult
58:53
to do, isn't it? You can't take the eggs out of a baked cake. You can't undo
58:59
I mean, why can't you? If you can sell off publicly owned utilities, why can't you take them back
59:10
So, he's going to tell MPs he wants to bring back hope. That's an intangible. He's also
59:15
going to tell them that he wants to bring struggling utilities, such as Thameswater, under
59:19
public control. Now, why are utilities important? Why do utilities have their own
59:23
category on a monopoly board? And the reason why utilities are important
59:27
very simply is because they are absolutely essential to the safe and healthy running of a country
59:35
What would you put on that list? You put energy and you put
59:39
transport infrastructure. I don't think you'd put education. Education isn't a utility, but energy, transport
59:45
infrastructure, water. They're just the two utilities. Is it on the Monopoly board? It's the electricity company and the waterworks
59:52
But then you've got the railways. So the railways essentially... So have a look at that. Why are they different categories
59:58
You think back to where Monopoly was invented. Why are they different categories? The things you can buy and sell and put hotels and houses on
1:00:04
and then you've got the utilities, you've got the four railway stations, the electricity company and the waterworks
1:00:09
Why are they different? Well, they're not anymore. You can buy and sell water companies now, you can buy and sell shares in electricity and energy companies
1:00:21
And yet I, as a 54-year-old man, raised in this country in a politically engaged way
1:00:28
and certainly latterly the last 20-odd years, above average levels of political engagement with politics
1:00:34
of engagement with politics, I am not 100% persuaded that bringing utilities back under public ownership
1:00:42
is a no-brainer or is absolutely the right thing to do. 0345 6060 973 is the number you need to tell me
1:00:54
Well, what are you going to tell me? Are you like me? I mean, what is your first reaction to the idea of bringing utilities back under public control
1:01:13
I mean, it can't be as easy as some people would attest
1:01:19
But equally, it can't be as difficult as I somehow have been persuaded to feel in my bones
1:01:25
So it's a more detailed policy question than the one we did in the first hour
1:01:30
I mean, what do you want? Do you want this and why? Commitment to public control, legislation to make it easier to bring utilities
1:01:38
I suppose what I'm asking you is there's two things going on here. The first is, why does public ownership have such a bad reputation in this country
1:01:49
Or public control? In fact, the first question should probably be, what's the difference between public control and public ownership
1:01:55
But this is separate from a lot of the other political conversations we have in this country
1:02:00
Regardless of what you think, for example, about immigration, you might actually agree with somebody that you disagree with about everything else
1:02:07
on the issue of public ownership and public control. There'll be loads of racists who love the idea of public ownership and public control
1:02:14
as long as we can keep the public exclusively white. So the political proposal is fascinating to me
1:02:20
And question number one, then, is why... I can't expect you to be my sort of political therapist every single day
1:02:28
but why does public control of utilities have such an immediately negative reception and reaction in this country
1:02:36
Why is it something that no prime minister has talked about since I was at school
1:02:44
0345 6060 973. No prime minister. I know that Jeremy Corbyn did, and maybe that's part of the problem for me personally
1:02:52
is that I found him such a ridiculous figure that I would associate ridiculousness
1:02:57
with some of the things that he suggested, despite the fact that when John MacDonald came out
1:03:00
with exactly the same proposals, I generally quite liked them. That's me being a little bit unreasonable or biased
1:03:09
So why in this country does public control of utilities have such an immediately negative feel to it
1:03:19
0345 6060973. And then, why on earth would we not do this
1:03:26
If something is profitable enough to attract private sector purchase, then the idea that we would have to absorb the losses as well as the profits becomes pointless
1:03:35
It becomes utterly irrelevant. I suppose it's going to be very, very difficult to sit here in 2026
1:03:41
and fully acknowledge the scale of the disaster that privatisation of utilities represents
1:03:46
Because it is, for people who still fetishise Margaret Thatcher, it's that and the Falkland Islands, really
1:03:51
There's not a lot else on that list. We made a ton of money from selling stuff to the private sector
1:03:57
And we saw off the Argentinians in the Falkland Islands. Those are probably the two biggest elements of Margaret Thatcher's legacy
1:04:04
What if it was the biggest mistake any Prime Minister has ever made in this country
1:04:08
Short-term gain for long-term pain. Because why would you buy it? Why would you buy it now unless you thought you were going to make more money out of it
1:04:17
than you were going to pay for it? and if you're going to make more money out of it
1:04:21
than you're going to pay for it then where is that future profit coming from
1:04:26
where is all that money coming from? it's coming from the pockets of taxpayers and the pockets of customers
1:04:31
who are also taxpayers so how can anybody look at the water companies
1:04:35
in this country over the course of the last 20 years and conclude that
1:04:38
A. privatisation was a good idea and B. re-nationalisation or public control is
1:04:44
not a complete no-brainer Stick them into insolvency, take control of them afterwards
1:04:50
Why? It's a national emergency. Because they are infrastructure and utilities. Ah, man
1:04:58
I haven't thought about this properly since my politics A-level. But there are some things that should not be subject to the markets
1:05:06
The ebb and flow of the markets. There are some things that should be owned by the people for the people
1:05:13
Isn't that? Anyway, you tell me. Hit the numbers now. Question one, why does public ownership have such a negative reaction in this country
1:05:22
And number two, why on earth would you not want it? Cut through the negative reaction
1:05:27
Tell me why this is a good idea or, of course, why it is a bad idea
1:05:30
Because it might be. I'm sounding a little bit naive, a little bit idealistic. Or a little bit obvious
1:05:38
20 minutes after 11 is the time. James O'Brien on LBC. It's 22 minutes after 11
1:05:44
Who else gets a gut reaction like mine? When I say privatisation, you say boo or hooray
1:05:49
It's my age, isn't it? It's the fact that everyone was doing it. And remember, you know, my parents could afford to send me to private schools
1:05:55
They didn't have any money left over to buy shares in British gas or anything like that
1:05:58
But everybody did. Advertising campaigns were successful. Everybody got a little bit of the action
1:06:04
Everybody made a few quid on it. It's like selling off council houses. That would be the third thing you put on Margaret Thatcher's legacy
1:06:09
She saw off the Argentinians. She made the country a ton of money by selling off the country's most precious assets
1:06:16
To her mates. Okay. Oh, and she sold... Some people were able to buy their own council house
1:06:20
again, at a knockdown price. So where did the knockdown price come from? Well, they paid less than they would have done on the open market
1:06:27
Okay, so that was bad news for everybody who didn't buy their own council house
1:06:32
They would have ended up making up the short... Anyway, why does privatisation stroke nationalisation
1:06:37
evoke the feelings it evokes in you? Bob's in Labbrook Grove. Tidied up yet, Bob
1:06:44
Yeah, I'm ready. No, have they tidied up yet? Are the streets clear? Oh, the streets..
1:06:49
Yeah, where I am, it is anyway. Glad to hear it. What's on your mind? Yeah, basically, you know, at the end of the day..
1:06:55
Mate, you've got to stop right there. You can't come on the radio and say, basically, and at the end of the day
1:07:00
before you've said anything else at all. This is not a football phone-in. This is about privatisation
1:07:07
It's a game of two halves, James. When you've got privatisation, yeah
1:07:12
Yeah. The same people, yeah, that people say the public sector, private sector
1:07:18
the same people, people are people, are gonna be running the services, yeah
1:07:23
So if it the train service it the electric if it the gas yeah Not necessarily Well it is because No it isn Not at the top of the tree The board people not the actual people running it the experts The people on the boards they
1:07:35
move around. They move from, like, Woolworths to Network Rail. I think one of them did back
1:07:39
in the day, or it was the other way around. So they're not the... So let me ask you a question, then. Let me ask you a question, then, yeah
1:07:45
Yeah, all right. If you get the best person from a company
1:07:49
who run national services, you can pay them what they're getting paid in the private sector, yeah
1:07:55
Yeah. And they come over and they run the public sector, yeah
1:07:59
The big difference why the private sector make more money than the public sector
1:08:03
is because, like the buses, yeah, they pay less pensions to people, yeah
1:08:08
And there's worse terms and conditions. So they prioritise profit over absolutely everything else
1:08:15
whether it's employee welfare or customer satisfaction or costs. Which is absolutely fine
1:08:20
Yeah, which is fine. Well, it's fine if you're selling burgers. It's not fine if you're selling essentials, like water
1:08:25
Let me finish my point. I am. So the profits that they would have made
1:08:31
so these tens of millions, hundreds of millions that they would have made
1:08:36
instead of going to private hands, it will go to paying the wages
1:08:41
and the excess can go to things like the NHS and other things that don't make money
1:08:47
I agree with you, don't I? So you're saying that the profits, whether they come down a little bit
1:08:54
because you are paying your employees more or trying to keep costs down because you're Prime Minister and the cost of living is as important to you as anything else
1:09:01
but they are still profitable and all of the profits go into the Treasury
1:09:05
What's not to like? Well, exactly, because it's a monopoly. The electric was a monopoly
1:09:09
The gas was a monopoly. The water is still a monopoly. You can't shop around for a water deal
1:09:17
Well, look, I'm with Thames Water, yeah? Yeah? My bill went up
1:09:21
Did you just get your text? My bill went up, yeah. Did you just get a text? Stop saying yeah
1:09:25
Did you just get a text? Did you just get a text off Thames Water? Thames Water
1:09:29
No. I just got one. I just got one. Despite the recent rain, our host pipe ban remains in place
1:09:34
This is breaking news. I got it at 11.01. Our host pipe ban remains in place
1:09:38
Thank you for your continued support. Please keep saving water. Yeah, but my bill went up 40%, yeah
1:09:44
And you know what the reason they went up by 40% was? For them to invest in infrastructure
1:09:48
But they didn't. Now, exactly. Now, if it was in public hands
1:09:53
they would have been invested in the infrastructure instead of off-whatever it is saying
1:09:58
yeah, we allow you to raise bills by 40% because you've been all our money down for all these years
1:10:02
and giving it to shareholders. See, I knew. Do you know what I did then
1:10:07
I was saying to myself, stop policing the way that he's speaking. I've already picked him up on saying at the end of the day
1:10:13
and basically at the top of the show, and then I told you to stop saying yes so much. So I stopped policing the way that you were speaking
1:10:18
and you used a naughty word, so we had to dump it. Oh, sorry. Well, you're not sorry
1:10:23
Well, at the end of the day... Stop saying at the end. Oh, Bob, for heaven's sake
1:10:28
Well, basically... Just let him swear. Seriously, otherwise he can't... Sorry. No, you're all right
1:10:37
It's literally profits, yeah? It's all about profits. I'd have thought so
1:10:42
I mean, it seems... Again, so why then? Okay, so briefly and without resort to any potty language
1:10:47
Why does, and it's not just me, although I'm clearly a bit of a mug on this one
1:10:53
why does it immediately engender such a negative reaction when you read the words re-nationalisation or public ownership
1:10:59
You know what it is? It's because it starts from the top, yeah? It's the mentality from the top
1:11:04
There are very well-run businesses, yeah? And how the business runs and how it goes through to the employees
1:11:11
starts at the top. If you go on a first-class flight anywhere, yeah
1:11:15
you're going to get a certain level of service, haven't you, aren't you? Yes. Exactly, because the expectation is there
1:11:21
The problem with our public services is that the expectation from the top
1:11:25
is not that we're going to give brilliant services and it'll be worth it
1:11:29
And also, this idea that took hold, and this might be partly a consequence of my education, actually
1:11:35
the kind of school that I went to, you are fed the idea
1:11:41
that it will be inefficient if the money isn't kept by the owners
1:11:47
I'm not even exaggerating, am I? No, not at all. That is exactly what we are taught
1:11:51
That's where the whole process of privatisation comes from. That's why the entire practice of privatisation takes hold
1:11:58
because British Rail was a wonderful example of this in the 1970s and the 1980s
1:12:02
The company will not be well run unless the owners or the people running the company
1:12:11
get to keep the money. And I think a little bit of me, Bob, has fallen for that over the years
1:12:16
The idea that... And I'll tell you why. So let's look at a hospital, for example
1:12:22
And if I am signing a contract with someone who's going to be in charge of fixing the electrics when they go wrong
1:12:29
if that money, the money I don't spend is somehow recycling back round to me
1:12:36
then I'm going to pay a lot more attention to that contract
1:12:40
than I am going to do if I can just sign it off anyway. So that's the problem with the sclerotic nature of public services sometimes
1:12:47
But they've privatised huge swathes of the National Health Service and it just looks increasingly like the companies getting the contracts
1:12:54
are sucking money out of the system without actually delivering anything measurably better
1:12:59
than what we would have got under public control. So why? Why does public control engender such an extraordinary emotional reaction
1:13:05
let alone the word renationalisation. 0345 60 60 973. And where are you on this
1:13:13
Is it actually going to be something that... I mean, this could be the biggest example of all
1:13:17
which is why, in my defence, I've fallen for it. So I give you that long list of things
1:13:21
that the British public have been persuaded to oppose, despite the fact that it was stupid to do so
1:13:27
And the biggest one of all, when it comes to public opinion, will be privatisation
1:13:31
It's because the people that own the media, the people that own the newspapers, wanted to also own the utilities
1:13:36
and wanted to also own the privatised companies. So, of course, they create an idea
1:13:42
that there's something negative going on, but almost everybody, regardless of their political affiliations
1:13:46
on any other issue, almost everybody is going to be in favour of it
1:13:50
as soon as they understand the most basic facts. Here's Lottie Morley with your headline
1:13:53
James O'Brien on LBC. 33 minutes after 11, you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:14:00
So, is this one of those moments where you are slapping your forehead and going
1:14:05
oh, James, finally. I've never really talked in great depth or at great length
1:14:10
about privatisation and nationalisation, but I am a creature of my age, of my era
1:14:17
And I was very much growing up when privatisation was all the rage
1:14:22
Was it Don't Tell Sid? Do you remember? No one's going to remember that. I work with much younger people than I am
1:14:27
Well, Keith's not that young. Do you remember Don't Tell Sid? Was it Don't Tells the British Gas Campaign
1:14:32
And it was the idea. So here's the thing, right? Wins next and then Josephine
1:14:37
So bear with briefly. I know there's been a lot on me today, but I'm trying to work stuff out
1:14:42
You say, why are they doing that, Dad? And Dad would say, well, everyone is going to be able
1:14:46
to own a piece of that company. And their shareholding will increase in value
1:14:52
Well, they'll get dividends. That's a great idea, right? So I a middle kid It didn really cross my mind There be loads of people who can afford to buy shares in these utilities just like there be loads of people in council houses who won be able to buy their council houses in a million years And somehow they going to be
1:15:06
on the hook for the money that Margaret Thatcher gave away to the people who could afford to buy
1:15:11
council houses. So is this one of the biggest no-brainers of the last 50 years, that privatisation
1:15:16
was an unmitigated disaster, except for the people who made a ton of money out of it
1:15:20
I remember reading about the son of a housing minister under Margaret Thatcher
1:15:27
who ended up being one of the biggest private landlords of council, former council houses
1:15:33
So the person buys them and then the person who buys the council house sells it to a massive property company
1:15:39
So they are charging more rent and keeping all the money on properties that had a generation previously been under public ownership
1:15:46
and it could be one of the biggest and this is where you sort of think I'm an idiot
1:15:51
for only really fully grasping this today if indeed I have, I may have got it all wrong
1:15:57
in which case 03456060973 Don't Tell Sid was BT apparently no it wasn't, it was Gaz, Tell Sid or Don't Tell Sid
1:16:06
something about Sid and it just made it all feel rather jolly and fun
1:16:10
as opposed to right-wing politicians selling what was in a sense the birthright
1:16:15
of every British citizen in this country to the highest bidder in return for buttons
1:16:20
Because if you didn't have any shares, what did you get out of that sale? Oh, all right, the government raised a ton of money
1:16:25
and they could spend it on infrastructure, but when the money runs out, when that payout runs out
1:16:30
and what you sold was... Anyway, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wynne's in Horsham. Wynne, what made you pick up the phone
1:16:36
Ah, good morning, James. Yes, I picked up the phone because I actually worked for a nationalised company
1:16:41
back in the day. I worked for West Midland Gas in the early 80s before it was privatized
1:16:48
And that experience leads me to, you know, my reaction to the idea that we're going to re-nationalize things
1:16:55
Yes. I'm wary. Yes, I bet. Tell me why. I can understand the economics, yes
1:17:02
You know, obviously we don't want the profits disappearing offshore, you know, and that sort of stuff
1:17:08
But I also wonder about the actual management of these companies because the management was pretty appalling
1:17:15
It was sort of internalised. The politics at the higher levels as people sort of went for the jobs
1:17:25
and things like that was pretty poor. You've got to watch out for that. The other thing is that there were deals done
1:17:31
between the various nationalised companies. In the late 70s, I lived in Telford, Newtown
1:17:38
and in Telford, some estates were denied gas, basically, so that the electric company, which was also nationalized
1:17:48
would have a market for its rather appalling storage heaters. Yes, I remember those
1:17:55
Emotion heaters. Yeah, no, not emotion heaters. They were a block of concrete
1:18:00
Oh, there were even worse. Yes, of course. Yeah, on cheap electricity overnight. But are we, I mean, this is 40 years ago
1:18:06
Exactly. Are we letting the perfect be the enemy of the good? Because, I mean, if I was in..
1:18:10
No, I'm not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, but I think what I'm trying to get at is the difference
1:18:15
between nationalisation in terms of ownership and public control. Because... But I see your West Midlands gas, and I'll raise you Thames Water
1:18:26
Yes, I know. And that's because Thames Water has been allowed to get away with things
1:18:30
because it's had absolutely no public control. So what it means is that your experience at West Midlands Gas
1:18:37
is not necessarily indicative of the broader experience of public ownership. It's just an example of what can go wrong
1:18:47
Yeah, it's the way that the monopolies... Monopolies can behave in monopoly..
1:18:53
How would you call it? Monopolistic. Monopolistic manners. Easy for you to say
1:18:59
And that is certainly what's happening in the 1970s and early 1980s
1:19:05
And it actually was one of the reasons why Batcher was able to gaslight the country
1:19:10
And this is where I am still a child of my era, because somewhere in my mind I'm thinking about British rail sandwiches
1:19:17
and poor provision of utilities, and therefore privatisation was a necessary corrective to public sector scleroticism
1:19:26
That's another hard word to say. Yes, but it was the wrong thing, wasn't it
1:19:30
Because what was really needed was... Fix West Midlands gas, don't give it away or sell it, just fix it
1:19:35
Yeah, just fix it. Just make sure that it's more customer-facing than it was
1:19:41
because, frankly, we weren't customer-facing. And nobody really held your feet to the fire
1:19:47
because who is going to hold your feet to the fire if ultimately your boss is the Prime Minister or the Energy Secretary
1:19:53
Yeah, exactly, and they weren't going to. So particularly when, you know, if you've got people that don't, you know, like the company and want to keep it in public ownership because it's all part of it
1:20:05
Yes, this is a really helpful insight. How then, I think I know the answer to this, but I'll ask you anyway, how do you greet Andy Burnham's commitment to public control of utilities
1:20:16
I like the public control. I like the idea, because what I see that's gone wrong with the water companies is that the Environment Agency has no teeth
1:20:26
There is no way of holding the water companies, making it expensive for them to dump sewage
1:20:33
Yeah, and frightened, therefore, of doing. And frightened, yeah. And ultimately, I would say, you know, in the worst cases, there is going to be the threat of jail time
1:20:42
Yeah. It's too easy for companies to say, oh, well, we'll pay the fine, we'll pay the fine, that's okay
1:20:50
someone else will pay the fine. Ultimately, the customer will pay the fine
1:20:55
Ultimately, the customer will pay the fine, as you say, yeah. So I like the idea of public control
1:21:01
but it's when it immediately goes over, oh, we're going to nationalise everything, we're going to take ownership
1:21:07
that's approaching it from the wrong direction as far as I can see. So it is under a different set of rules from other capitalistic enterprises, because it is a utility and an essential. It's a monopoly
1:21:18
So, in fact, as you mentioned monopoly, it is not as daft as it sounds for me to point out that the six squares on the monopoly board that you can't build houses and hotels on are the railway stations, the electricity company and the water company
1:21:32
they should be immune from or subject to different rules and regulations from other
1:21:39
capitalistic enterprises or money making enterprises you what? I like that idea
1:21:46
it's good isn't it? that's why they're on the board it's why you can't put hotels on them
1:21:51
because they should be policed differently you can't develop them to make more money out of them
1:21:58
and that's exactly what we've done we've allowed people to develop them to make more money out of them, not to provide better services
1:22:04
or cleaner water or less sewage, but to make more money out of them
1:22:08
Keith, write this down. I think this might be a new one of those moments where I pat myself on the back even more enthusiastically than usual
1:22:13
Why? As you say this on Big Debate, why do you think the six squares on the Monopoly board
1:22:18
that you can't build hotels on are the transport infrastructure, the energy company and the water company
1:22:23
Answer because they should obviously not be subject to the same regulations and rules that the rest of the world is the rest of the capitalist society is They should be differently and better regulated and there should be greater consequences for malfeasance
1:22:39
because if they go bust or if they lose money, it's not shareholders picking up the tab, it's all of us
1:22:44
Even though the shareholders get to keep the profits, the losses will be socialised
1:22:48
A great call, thank you, Wynne. Josephine's in Westminster. Josephine, what made you pick up the phone? Good morning, James
1:22:53
So we last spoke about Japan because I'm now a design historian. But in another life, I originally did economics at Cambridge
1:23:00
So I feel like I have kind of an objective opinion on this
1:23:05
You do. It doesn't have to be objective. I'm a big fan of subjective opinions
1:23:09
But you see your boots. So my view on this is very much that there is very little nuance in this conversation
1:23:16
So the public is always presented with this option of like, there is either public ownership or there's private ownership
1:23:22
and nothing in between. And my issue is really with how privatisation was executed
1:23:28
in Thatcher's time. So it was basically almost like with the sledgehammer
1:23:33
So the issue with council houses, for example, they were sold off, but the money from..
1:23:39
Oh, that's gone. I lost you then. I lost you at the money from
1:23:46
The money from them what? The money that was made by selling off the council houses
1:23:50
was not ring-fenced to build new houses. No. So that was a fairly simple thing
1:23:56
that could have been introduced into the plan that would have essentially, you know
1:24:01
meant that we don't have a housing crisis now. Now, something similar could have been done
1:24:05
with the water companies and with the rail, with the national rail, in that you could have had government
1:24:10
someone from the government on the board of the newly privatised companies. So you could have maintained some level
1:24:15
of government control within these companies on the basis of essentially national security, I would imagine
1:24:22
because, you know, at the end of the day... Yes, I mean, it's a miracle that... I mean, that's a fundamental..
1:24:26
So the reason why public support for nationalisation is off the charts
1:24:31
and it really does defy all other political affiliations or all other political opinions
1:24:38
it feels almost, in your guts, correct, that some of these things, most obviously utilities
1:24:46
monopolised utilities, should not be subject to the same rules that the rest of the market operates under
1:24:52
because they are so different. And national security being the best explanation
1:24:57
of why they are so different. You know, if a beef burger company goes bust
1:25:01
it doesn't mean that, you know, we're all going to starve. Whereas if a water company fails to produce and perform
1:25:08
we literally have no water. But also in the age in which we live
1:25:12
where we have the very real threat from, you know, states like Russia and potentially also China
1:25:19
you know, the threat that exists by having these as private companies
1:25:23
with absolutely no government oversight about what is done or who can control them is really quite concerning, I would imagine
1:25:32
Yes, and it's a perfect example of gaslighting because the more you talk about it, the more obvious it becomes
1:25:38
The more you look at the polling, the more clear it is that most people have already worked this out for themselves
1:25:43
But the more you rely upon public discourse or media to frame these conversations, the more you realize how utterly ridiculous the conversation is
1:25:52
And not just un-nuanced, but positively dishonest. Exactly. Dishonest. And in whose interest, you know, these companies are being manifestly not being run in the public interest when you have people paying, you know, sky high prices and our waterways are completely polluted
1:26:09
it's just we're laughing stock on kind of on the global scale because actually no other country has
1:26:16
this kind of system in place i mean in scotland we don't even have to go as far as like scotland
1:26:21
you've got the water up in japan you know in scotland it's all nationalized and it works
1:26:25
perfect well i'm sure there are issues but i mean nothing is no system is ever going to be perfect
1:26:30
and if we design if we do take it back into public control perhaps we can learn from those
1:26:35
examples and actually design a better system. 82% of Brits believe that water companies should
1:26:39
be run in the public sector. 70% say the same of energy companies. The problem, Josephine
1:26:44
and this is my particular hobby horse, the problem is that if the combined forces of
1:26:51
Fleet Street, various weird new television stations and the so-called think tanks, the
1:26:58
lobby groups on Tufton Street that pretend to be think tanks, if they got to work, they
1:27:03
could halve that figure by christmas exactly that and we're seeing that already we are so that's why
1:27:08
we really need a prime minister like andy bernard who has the political imagination to be able to
1:27:13
drive this through and i think he's i think he's got that i think he'll i think he knows how to
1:27:18
and this takes us back to the last hour because you are you are sounding optimistic and the reason
1:27:23
why you're sounding optimistic is that he refuses to play by the rules when they are set by the
1:27:27
entirely bogus alliance of billionaire-owned media, pretend think tanks that call themselves lobby groups
1:27:34
are quoted all over the papers, even today. And, of course, very, very rich people
1:27:40
who've now started launching their own weird little television stations in order to persuade people to believe things that aren't true
1:27:46
And that's where my other hobby horse pops up, because so many of these roads lead back to Brexit
1:27:51
Josephine, lovely stuff. 11.47 is the time. James O'Brien on LBC. an LBC exclusive for you
1:27:57
which is so on the nose for this story that you could almost believe that
1:28:01
we planned it. First five months of 2026, 7,280 incidents of water firms in England
1:28:07
and Wales dumping sewage chemicals and other pollutants on days of little or
1:28:11
no rainfall. So the rate at which these companies discharged the most toxic sewage more than
1:28:17
doubled at the start of 2026. LBC, my colleague Connor Hand, you can read this on the website
1:28:23
have exclusively obtained this data. So the rate of potentially illegal spills rose to 48 incidents per day. I think back to the
1:28:32
earlier caller, I think it was Wynne in Horsham just pointing out that these companies are not frightened of anything. Public control, not necessarily public ownership. There's obviously
1:28:42
a distinction to be drawn there. I don't yet fully understand what that distinction is, but how can
1:28:47
anybody be opposed to public control? I don't know, hardly anybody is. 82% of Britons believe
1:28:51
water companies should be in the public sector. So why aren't they? Because Margaret Thatcher
1:28:55
sold them. Or John Major sold them. Who to? People that make tons of money out of them
1:29:01
and pump epic amounts of toxic sewage into our waterways. Even on the days when there's little
1:29:07
or no rainfall. Because that's the excuse that's usually offered up, isn't it? There's been so much rain, we just can't control the flow
1:29:13
of toxic substances into the water. Anyway, have a read of that article. I may not
1:29:17
have done it justice, but it seems very, very apropos, doesn't it
1:29:21
the conversation that we're having. So why does this country feel as if
1:29:25
or why do so many people in this country react negatively to the mention of renationalisation of public ownership
1:29:31
Answer, they don't really. The polling shows the opposite. But people like me, who perhaps spend their lives
1:29:36
with their nose pressed up against the newspaper, are not getting a full or clear picture of the issue
1:29:42
Three-quarters of the public support railway companies being brought into public ownership
1:29:47
And actually, there's seven squares on the Monopoly board. And I'm not including things like free parking or go
1:29:55
but what are the squares on the Monopoly board that you can't build hotels on, i.e. that..
1:30:00
can't be used by property developers to line their own pockets. I've given you six
1:30:04
There are four railway stations and two utility companies. There's actually a seventh
1:30:10
And if you're wondering about the tomber of some of the coverage of some of the current prisons crisis
1:30:17
the kind of people who just shout Dartmoor and pretend that it isn't all the doing of the Tories
1:30:22
and if you want to get full-on conspiracy theory about it, or not even conspiracy theory
1:30:27
why on earth would the Tories allow the prison system to be driven into the ground
1:30:31
One answer is, well, they knew they weren't going to be in power for much longer and Labour would have to deal with the mess
1:30:35
and therefore client journalists can pretend that it's all Labour's fault. But what if one of the reasons why the Tory government
1:30:43
from 2010 onwards allowed the prison system to be... I mean, who on earth would put Chris Grayling in charge of anything
1:30:48
unless they wanted it to fail? What if there's another story here
1:30:54
what if the prisons crisis is actually the plan and the reason why the Tories wanted the prisons
1:31:02
to be in such dire straits was so that they could privatise them
1:31:06
at some point in the future because that's the seventh square on the monopoly board
1:31:11
that you're not allowed to make a profit on jail Dales in Edinburgh, Dales, what made you pick up the phone
1:31:21
we used to make a profit on the jail Yeah, but we kept it
1:31:25
You couldn't... Private sector couldn't make a profit. How did we make a profit on the jail
1:31:28
I'm talking about my sister. She was a pure capitalist, and she added the jail spot
1:31:33
Oh, you mean at Monopoly? Yes. Yes. Where is she now? She's retired, obviously
1:31:39
OK. Go on, then. That's not why you rang in, because I only knew I was going to say that 30 seconds ago
1:31:44
and you were already on hold. Why did you ring in? I just wanted to say that I'm one of the 82%. Yeah
1:31:50
Because we will never have shares. Well, even if you did have shares, I think
1:31:55
do you think it's just the 18% of people who want water companies to be not in the public sector
1:32:00
are the ones who've got shares or who think that they'll have shares someday soon? No, I think it's a smaller number of people
1:32:05
who know that they can make a profit, like Thames Water. Yeah? I had a contract with Thames Water
1:32:10
so I know them intimately, and I've never seen any infrastructure building
1:32:14
in the 10 years that I had the contract with them, ever. All I did was emergencies
1:32:20
And that's what would happen if there was... no requirement to improve your services or punishments, particularly pungent punishments
1:32:27
when you fail. Yeah, I only ever turned up with bottled water and emergency piping. That
1:32:33
was your job, to plug the gaps caused by poor management. I used to chase pressure buildups
1:32:40
in London, across London, and it was just chasing the same leak all the way through
1:32:45
London over a year. And there was never any infrastructure rebuilds. All the stuff I went
1:32:51
to which Victorian old depots that you could hardly get a truck down, let alone a car
1:32:57
It was just so bad when I was working for them and there was never, when I was with them
1:33:02
any infrastructure building. I stopped doing it as a phone-in because it just became too circular and dispiriting
1:33:10
You just list all of the things that were going on on a daily basis and Connor's story on the LBC website
1:33:15
returns us to that sort of territory, although it's not exclusive to Thameswater
1:33:18
and you just list the spills South Westwater, 1,299 Yorkshire Water, 1,228
1:33:26
Thames Water, 1,052 That's, you know, across the whole of last year
1:33:31
the numbers were similar and this is just in the first six months of this year So in the first six months of this year
1:33:36
an already dire situation has got enormously worse and the sense that there's anything at all
1:33:43
that we can do about it has left the building Can I say something? Yeah, of course you can
1:33:47
That's how this place works, Del Yeah, out of the many subjects that you talk about, James
1:33:52
The only two that are really great are Trump, for me, and the water one
1:33:57
When you have Fergal Sharky, you're almost crying listening about the fishing
1:34:03
My grandfather literally stopped fishing when Margaret Thatcher basically sold the water companies off
1:34:09
because he knew what was coming. I like this, getting an insight into your family
1:34:14
and also an interesting perspective on the water company. Why do you think it happens, Del
1:34:20
Because it's so obvious to you. It was obvious to your granddad. Why do you think it happens
1:34:25
Because, you know, I like to lay a lot of the blame for a lot of the problems in this country at the feet of biased media, client journalists
1:34:30
and editorial lines that are set by the owners. But is it that simple
1:34:35
I mean, have we just been utterly gaslit into believing privatisation... Or not even believing, because the numbers aren't there
1:34:41
but the public discourse is dominated by the idea that privatisation is good and nationalisation is bad
1:34:47
Well, as soon as you said the word Sid, it automatically flashed back to those people
1:34:52
whispering in each other's ears, don't tell Sid. Don't tell Sid. Yeah, I don't even know what it meant
1:34:56
What did it mean? Yeah. But there's an elephant in a room that you're not talking about with this subject
1:35:01
that you talk about on other ones. Oh, go on. Data sensors
1:35:06
Oh, OK. Yeah, I hear you. But that's the AI thing. I don't think that that is an elephant in this room
1:35:12
I think that elephant is in another room, though. Because there's a woman that you just spoke to
1:35:16
and she said Russia and China. Yes. There is another elephant in a room and that's America
1:35:21
Well, you can't have lots of elephants in the room because... You can have as many as you want, James
1:35:24
No, but you can't because there's no room for anybody else. So data centres are interesting
1:35:28
and they are relevant to this conversation, but I don't think that they..
1:35:33
And I want to squeeze in at least one more call, so if I'm wrong, I apologise. I don't think that they are elephants in this particular room
1:35:39
I think they are interesting and attendant issues. Although talking about Russia and China
1:35:45
The Spanish Prime Minister has come out and criticised Russia and Israel
1:35:49
for misinformation that was spread during that crisis in Theuta. The Spanish Prime Minister, Pedro Sanchez
1:35:58
accusing Russia and Israel of inflaming that crisis by spreading disinformation online
1:36:04
It's obvious that Russia is involved in spreading disinformation on this issue. Israel is also spreading disinformation on this issue
1:36:10
by criticising the Spanish government, he said, And that won't be because they are worried about migration to Spain from Europe
1:36:16
but precisely because of the political positions we're taking, which I think are courageous, regarding the genocide in Gaza or Putin's invasion of Ukraine
1:36:25
Another example, perhaps, of only half the story reaching many consumers of media in this country
1:36:31
Dale, thank you, not just for your contribution, but also for the little bit of family history there
1:36:36
It's coming up to 12 noon. Still quite a lot of people waiting to talk about this. I'm both gratified and surprised by that
1:36:42
But I think we've touched on something. It is arguably the biggest example of gaslighting
1:36:47
that we've seen in the neoliberal era. So we may stay with elements of it
1:36:51
But the other story that caught my eye today is about loneliness
1:36:56
And I don't know that we are moving in the right direction
1:36:59
on some of the issues affecting young people today. You can't just shout the internet at everything
1:37:05
I mean, it's not entirely unhelpful. It's not as stupid as shouting Dartmoor at the prison crisis
1:37:09
but it is not going to be all of the answer to all of the questions for example these children
1:37:16
still go to school so why are they all so lonely james o'brien on lbc three minutes after 12 you
1:37:24
are listening to james o on lbc um we come back to that i hope it not going to be one of those millstones that I have to carry around for years Oh and you know what else He didn realise how bad privatisation was until 2026
1:37:38
Calls himself commentator. This is a sad story, all right? And it is not a question to which you can answer
1:37:48
simply by shouting the internet. Although the internet is going to be part of it
1:37:52
and you are going to go a little bit further. You're going to need to tell me a little bit more
1:37:58
not just it's the internet, but what it is about the internet or social media
1:38:02
or technology in general that helps explain why the number of young people, this looks at England
1:38:09
I doubt things are different elsewhere, but the number of young people in England who describe themselves as having no close friends
1:38:15
has soared since 2014. So, I mean, you can point at lots of things
1:38:22
most obviously austerity, the pandemic and social media. But you can't answer the question with any single one of them
1:38:31
and none of, even the various combinations are going to deliver the complete answer
1:38:38
the complete explanation. Something has changed since we were at school or since you were at school
1:38:45
Data paints a sobering picture, it's reported this morning, of 11 to 24-year-olds growing up in a bleak world
1:38:52
shaped by pandemic and social media, but they still go to school
1:38:57
They've got about one in 20 now reporting that they have no close friends at all
1:39:02
which is up from one in 100 in 2014. That is an extraordinary acceleration
1:39:09
prompting the Institute for Public Policy Research, which is a proper think tank, not one of those secretly funded lobby groups
1:39:15
that calls itself a think tank in order to get on programmes presented by people who don't really care about facts
1:39:20
They have called it the loneliest generation. You've also got, obviously, figures falling for few friends as well
1:39:31
So if you've got at least three close friends, that number has come down rapidly as well
1:39:36
And the relationships that you do have are less strong than before
1:39:40
14 and 15-year-olds who were completely or very happy with their friendships
1:39:44
has fallen by 10% to 76. in the same period. So what we can say with confidence
1:39:50
is that over a 10-year period, or a 12-year period, actually, young people in this country
1:39:59
have fewer friends and less meaningful friendships, less secure friendships
1:40:10
Young people in... And I hate this. and this is such an awful thing
1:40:17
however bad life is friends make it better you can almost sort of start writing the hallmark cards at this point
1:40:28
can't you? but there's a reason why things become cliches the idea of having nobody to turn to when things are tough
1:40:37
or having nobody to have fun with to just have fun with
1:40:43
is it's an absolutely heartbreaking statistic and it's one that I think we need to spend a little
1:40:50
bit of time together today trying to understand a little better and I also do something I don't
1:40:55
often do on the program I'm also going to add that that extra thing if you're a parent or a teacher
1:41:01
or if you are a formerly lonely human how do you make things better how do you make things better
1:41:11
do you do to actually become less lonely? And I'm interested initially and chiefly in children
1:41:22
What can a child do to become less lonely? So it's either what did you do or what have you learned
1:41:28
But the first question is going to be why. It almost always is on this programme, isn't it
1:41:32
Why? And not just the umbrella terms. What is it about the pandemic or social media or austerity
1:41:39
that explains for you why children today are going to have fewer friends and less secure friendships
1:41:51
The number you need is always the same on this programme, 0345 6060973
1:41:56
You can use it to WhatsApp me as well, but it's the number you need to ring in to the programme
1:42:01
and answer the simple question of why young people today... Because, look, I like the age range here as well
1:42:08
It's 11 to 24-year-olds. If I asked you, how can you go to school and have no close friends
1:42:17
would you think I was being cruel or crass? Because I can understand how it's possible to go to school
1:42:23
and have no close friends. But you're going to stick out like a sore thumb
1:42:27
You're going to be a very sympathetic character to me, at least
1:42:32
and I hope to everybody else. It would be almost impossible to go to school and have no close friends
1:42:38
when I was at school. You know, even the kids that were a little bit eccentric
1:42:43
or perhaps a little bit vulnerable would form their own tight friendship groups
1:42:49
They'd form their own close friendships. I can't remember anybody who was absolutely isolated
1:42:56
And at boarding school, as with many things, I suspect it would be ten times worse than if you didn't actually go home at the end of the day
1:43:03
But I'm trying to think of somebody who would have described themselves as having no close friends at all
1:43:07
And I can't. I can't quite understand how you can be socialising every day for, well, let's say for seven or eight years of your life and coming away with no close friends
1:43:25
So how does it happen? 0345 60 60 973. And the other thing that occurred to me when I was looking at this this morning was the argument I used to have
1:43:42
And this is going to be interesting, actually. This is where you may not realise you've got something helpful to say about this subject
1:43:49
So I remember when Fortnite and other games started getting a grip upon youngsters
1:43:56
Would this have coincided roughly with the pandemic? Or was it just before
1:44:00
but the idea that the kids would come home and they'd plug in their machines
1:44:05
and they... It's a slightly out-of-date description, isn't it? They'd take the machines out of standby
1:44:12
and they'd put on their headsets and they'd play FIFA or Fortnite online
1:44:17
and I would say that's a very bleak and lonely existence and parents would tell me
1:44:22
no, it isn't. They're chatting to their mates. They're doing loads of socialising
1:44:26
And I would think, oh, that's me told because I'm showing my age here or I'm not working this out
1:44:33
And actually, and parents, I'm not at the moment minded to turn this into a question
1:44:41
about how much of this is the parents' fault, but bear with me
1:44:46
we are terrified of letting our children out of our sight these days
1:44:50
We were supposed to do this on the show the other day and that we got overtaken by events
1:44:53
but there yet more evidence of how much of a child lack of socialising lack of getting out and about is as a consequence of parental paranoia One of the first subjects because I became a father not
1:45:06
long after I became a radio presenter, so for the first five and ten years of me doing this job
1:45:12
I was fascinated by these issues because I'd catch myself being the kind of parent I never
1:45:16
expected to be. I was adamant that we'd never have screens on long car journeys, for example
1:45:20
because we talk and play Mini Cheddar or I Spy or whatever it is
1:45:25
And then, of course, you know, when you've got a really long car journey ahead and the idea of the children in the back of the car being absolutely engaged
1:45:33
and therefore quiet, irresistible. So the next thing you know, we've got a couple of screens
1:45:38
so they can watch Peppa Pig in the back of the car. And, you know, I'd be one of those parents who didn't do junk food
1:45:43
or they'd never do this. And then reality kicks in and you actually become a little bit different
1:45:48
So for 10 years, I was fascinated by these sort of issues. And the one that fascinated me the most
1:45:53
was another example of me becoming the kind of parent that I never thought I'd be
1:45:57
And I would get absolutely terrified if I didn't know where they were. You know, when they first walk home from school on their own
1:46:03
or when they first go out to play with a neighbour. And my kids were okay
1:46:08
We lived in a nice, safe part of London and they would go to the park sometimes unaccompanied
1:46:12
And I hated every minute of it. Didn't have the technology at the time, but if we'd had the Find My technology on our phones
1:46:18
I'd have been tracking their every movement. And I used to take the mickey out of parents who were like that
1:46:23
before I became one. I remember the first time we talked about phones
1:46:27
I'd never let my child have a mobile phone, and someone rang in to say, yeah, but I want to know if they get abducted
1:46:32
And I'd say, yeah, listen, I'm not exactly a criminologist, but if someone abducts your child
1:46:37
the first thing they're going to do is chuck the phone away. So you're not going to know that your child
1:46:41
you're just going to be ringing a phone that nobody's answering. Your child isn't going to ring you to say
1:46:44
Daddy, Daddy, help, I'm being abducted. And I thought I was being funny. Fast forward five years, and I'm like
1:46:49
I think we should get the kids' phones, you know, just in case they need to get hold of us, in the case of an emergency
1:46:54
It's paranoid parenting. I didn't know I was going to go down this path
1:46:59
when I started talking about lonely children. Maybe you'll think I shouldn't have done
1:47:05
But why are children so lonely? Answer, internet, austerity, social media, pandemic
1:47:12
but also, when do children make friends? They don't really do the whole business at school
1:47:19
They do it after school. They do it outside of school. And if they're coming home to play games on their headset
1:47:28
I could be completely wrong about this. Let me make that absolutely crystal clear from the very start
1:47:34
They're absolutely persuaded, these parents, that their children are having an engaged and sociable time
1:47:42
because they're playing FIFA or Fortnite on their computers with their mates
1:47:47
some of whom they will know in real life, many of whom they won't. So are you worried about your child being lonely
1:47:52
No, they're playing football with ten friends every night on the PlayStation. Do you know these friends? No
1:47:58
Do they know these friends? Not really. Do they, like, have to kill two hours together when they're bored
1:48:03
No, they've never had to do that. When are friendships forged in adversity and boredom
1:48:10
I think childhood friendships are forged. In adversity, boredom and team sports, perhaps
1:48:18
Or joint endeavours, let's say. Not the kind of joint endeavours that got me expelled from school
1:48:23
but the joint endeavours that involve doing things together and becoming friends with the people you're doing it with
1:48:29
whether it's a model-making club, a rugby team, or a debating society
1:48:34
The less you do face-to-face with other people, the less likely you are to form friendships, I think
1:48:42
I think. You may not be ready to address the possibility that by dint of being a paranoid parent
1:48:50
you have made your child more lonely than they would otherwise be. But it's just an example of how we might get into this
1:48:57
in ways that don't just involve shouting pandemic, social media and austerity at the problem, OK
1:49:05
It's quarter past twelve. Here's the question I want you to answer. here are the questions, plural, I want you to answer
1:49:13
Number one, why are children... No, this is how we'll do it
1:49:18
Why are the children you know so lonely? 03456060973. And then you get the detail of it
1:49:25
So if the answer is social media austerity and pandemic, it's interesting because you're watching it
1:49:31
You're not just shouting it, like shouting Dartmoor at a prison's crisis. It's detail. It's insight
1:49:37
its experience and therefore it's relevant and interesting why are the children you know
1:49:43
lonely oh three four five six oh six oh nine seven three is the number that you need and
1:49:50
what can we do about it seriously looking back how can you i don't know if you can help a lonely
1:49:58
child be less lonely but you have to believe that you can otherwise you're consigning them to
1:50:04
to a lifetime of relative misery? How can you help as a teacher, as a parent
1:50:09
How can you make your child less lonely? Do you remember play dates that you didn't want to go on
1:50:13
Do you remember those? In the school holidays, someone's mum would be reaching out to your mum
1:50:18
because they didn't have much to do during the school holidays and your mum wanted to be friends with their mum
1:50:22
So they'd say, oh, you're going to go round to Keith's to play on Friday. I go, I don't like Keith
1:50:26
Keith's so bored. Don't make me go round to Keith's mum. But you have to go and you went round to Keith's
1:50:31
and you actually had quite a nice time. because Keith had a grifter and he let you ride it
1:50:35
I don't know. You see what I'm saying. There are things you can do. So Keith's mum did a great job of making him less lonely
1:50:41
by persuading my mum to send me around to play on a Friday
1:50:45
I just hate this idea of children... I mean, do they know they're lonely
1:50:51
That would be absolutely heartbreaking. It is 16 minutes after 12, and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:50:59
And the phone lines are open on this. Why are the children you know so lonely
1:51:05
And what can we do about it? What can anybody do about it? Crucially, I suppose, what can they do about it
1:51:12
Well, some breaking news for you. Funnily enough, because I asked Natasha Clarke earlier today
1:51:16
whether we thought that Keir Starmer would be in Parliament today for Andy Burnham's debut as Prime Minister
1:51:23
and it has been reported in the last hour that he is to step down as an MP
1:51:27
Keir Starmer to step down as the MP for Hoban and St Pancras
1:51:31
where he has been serving for 11 years. This is an exclusive story in the Camden New Journal
1:51:37
to give credit where it is due. Indeed, I don't even do the byline. I never do the byline
1:51:41
Richard Osley and Dan Carrier got this absolutely first-class political scoop on their patch
1:51:48
And after weeks of speculation, he has explained to his local newspaper why he felt it was the right time to leave the House of Commons
1:51:55
Initial reaction to this is, I don't think it's a coincidence that he's chosen this moment
1:52:00
and therefore perhaps distracted a little bit of attention from the successor that he promised not to distract attention from
1:52:07
But I could be wrong. 18 minutes after 12 is the time. A little bit more on that story, no doubt
1:52:12
But main attention focus next on the question of why children are lonelier than ever
1:52:20
and what we can, if anything, do about it. 0345 6060 973 James O on LBC after 12 is the time you listening to James O on LBC It after 12 is the time You listening to James O on LBC
1:52:36
Sir Keir Starmer, the big political story of the moment, although the new Prime Minister is set to address Parliament
1:52:41
for the first time later this afternoon. As Prime Minister, he has indeed addressed Parliament before
1:52:47
but Sir Keir Starmer to step down as MP for Hobart and St Pancras, just trying to get the dates on it
1:52:51
but it means there will be a by-election, and previous incumbent in that chair was Frank Dobson, actually
1:52:56
who did my holiday cover once. I know that's not the most important thing to note about his career
1:53:01
but it was a very memorable experience for those who witnessed it. 28 minutes after 12 is the time
1:53:07
Kate's in Watford on the question of loneliness. Kate, what would you like to say? Hello. Yeah, you nearly had me going then, crying
1:53:13
because what you're saying is... You're a big fan of Keir Starmer, are you, Kate
1:53:20
Not Keir Starmer. I'm talking about a lonely scale. I know you are
1:53:23
I know you are. I'm labour through and through, but anyway. I've got two sons
1:53:28
One is older, obviously, than the other. But I'm talking about my youngest
1:53:32
My oldest was fine. Had no problems. My youngest, I absolutely wanted to cry for him
1:53:40
I could not get him to have any, couldn't get any friends. They swapped him out of his class at school to another class
1:53:48
When I used to send him out to play, because there's a park at the back of us
1:53:51
it's not on the road or anything, sends him out to play, the other kids would bring him back
1:53:56
And it was a total nightmare until one day he was sitting in the back of the car
1:54:02
as we're coming home and he said, Mummy, why am I so naughty
1:54:06
And that just killed me. And so I had to do something about it
1:54:11
And he got, I'm sad to say this, everyone's going to jump on me
1:54:16
but he got a diagnosis of ADHD. No one's going to jump on you, Kate
1:54:19
Well, the people who would jump on you for saying that are idiots. They are cruel and ignorant people
1:54:25
And even if Channel 4 are putting out programs like the great ADHD myth
1:54:29
it doesn't stop them being cruel and ignorant people. So never think that you can't say things like that in decent society
1:54:36
Thank you. This was before the pandemic as well, so it wasn't related to that
1:54:43
And I since have found out that I'm actually ADHD as well
1:54:46
There's a lot of it about. There's a lot of it about. But anyway, he is very successful now
1:54:53
He's going to be a paramedic. He's only 21. He does voluntary work
1:54:57
He does... He was... What did you do to help? What did you do to help
1:55:04
Went through hell to get him diagnosed. Sure. It took a long time
1:55:08
And then I actually lost him at one point, but he went to my mum when he was 14
1:55:15
But how did you help him make friends? Or did you? Well, he came out as being gay and just gradually took him
1:55:23
I've got a horse, took him up there, and he just, being around other people, older people
1:55:31
which isn't particularly good, but it was getting, and once he started being able to make eye contact with people
1:55:38
and do the, he finds it difficult, but once he overcome that, now he's off his meds
1:55:48
and he's doing grand, and I am so proud of him. He is such, oh, he's such a diamond
1:55:54
and he's so worthwhile having in this world. What age was he when you felt that things were beginning to turn around
1:56:00
He was 10. When did you start to feel they were getting better
1:56:04
Better? Not until he was 18, to be honest. Yeah, see, that's why I was worried you were going to say that
1:56:10
because it is really hard to know what you can do in that window, secondary school being a really brutal place sometimes
1:56:16
and yet no connections at all. He just constantly in trouble and other people didn't want to knock around with him
1:56:24
Exactly, constantly in trouble. Me on the phone trying to send him off to PGL
1:56:29
you know, parents get lost, and sends him off to there. And then, you know, and it would just be people..
1:56:36
And I'd always be sent out of places, like I tried busy bodies and I did two rounds of that
1:56:42
which is quite good if anybody wants to do it. but it's a family thing
1:56:48
You go, you eat, and the children get friends. Trying to engage, trying to get the children in
1:56:53
Exactly. And that idea for almost all parents, well, not almost all
1:56:58
but for the massive majority of parents listening, because we're looking at one in 20 kids now
1:57:02
saying that they have no close friends. It was one in 100 in 2014
1:57:06
so the number of people who will recognise what you describe is rising exponentially
1:57:11
Some of it will, of course, be down to neurodiversity, but an increase in diagnoses and you know this Kate does not mean there's an increase in the
1:57:18
number of people with these conditions it's just that we now recognize them and name them so
1:57:22
it doesn't explain the the rapid acceleration in this that's likely to be other factors in which
1:57:28
neurodiversity can be exacerbating but there's something about the society we've created
1:57:34
which explains this and a pandemic of loneliness an epidemic of loneliness how do you deal with
1:57:41
that as a parent. Someone told me once, it's not entirely true, but someone told me once that as a
1:57:46
parent you can only ever be as happy as your unhappiest child. And it's quite pithy that
1:57:52
it's almost like a kind of t-shirt slogan, and it's not true. But it has a truth within it
1:58:00
You can only be as happy as your unhappiest child. If you've got a very unhappy child
1:58:04
and loneliness and unhappiness are close, they're not necessarily twins, but they're cousins
1:58:09
you've got a lonely child it will prey on the mind of a loving parent in in a in a way that
1:58:15
unless you've been there you're never going to fully understand 12 25 is the time laura is in
1:58:20
parent porth in cornwall laura what would you like to say oh hi james um yeah i've just been
1:58:26
reflecting on your topic really um i've got a five and six year old um but i think my experience
1:58:33
of motherhood has just been so different from what I imagined. I was told growing up I could
1:58:39
have it all. I could be a high-flying career woman and a very successful
1:58:43
mother at the same time. But as I've mothered, I've just realised, like
1:58:49
that is impossible in our current society. And as a consequence, I don't really think
1:58:55
I'm giving my children the ingredients they necessarily need to kind of change for
1:59:03
Yeah, I mean, don't be too harsh on yourself. Mothers throughout the age, and indeed fathers
1:59:09
have felt that they could be doing more. But let's talk about those ingredients
1:59:13
What is it that makes you worry that they're not being given the tools
1:59:17
that they would need to forge friendships as they get older? I guess kind of play
1:59:23
I guess kind of at the end of the day, when I've worked nine to five and I'm full up of all of my work stuff
1:59:31
I don't really feel I have the energy or regulation to kind of really put into my children
1:59:38
the way I perhaps would if I had a different kind of work-life balance
1:59:43
I feel like, you know... Do they play with other children? Yeah, but I mean, like, if you think about after-school clubs
1:59:51
they're all on at kind of like four or five o'clock. They're quite difficult to kind of get to when you work full-time
1:59:59
Yes. And I just, yeah, it's... And you leave your village a lot of the time now
2:00:05
in kind of the modern-day world. I don't have kind of the cousins and the aunties
2:00:11
and the grandparents on the road that people used to. So I guess kind of they don't get those experiences either
2:00:17
of being held in those kind of networks anymore. You describe a more atomised existence
2:00:25
And, I mean, when you describe it like that, it's right. I was worried for a moment that you might be sort of in danger of sounding like one of those trad wives or something like that
2:00:33
But you're simply, you're describing the necessary reality that we inhabit. And if we compare it to, I mean, you're obviously quite a bit younger than me
2:00:42
but if we compare it to our own childhood experiences, these are things that have changed
2:00:48
Particularly that notion of atomization. So I don't know why I obsess about cars in the school run
2:00:53
But most of my mum's friends in Kidderminster were friends that she made when she was picking my sister and I up from school by foot
2:01:01
Because you would talk and you would socialise and then her friend's children would become your friends or your friend's parents would become her friends
2:01:10
And all of that is changing alongside the more obvious things like social media and the pandemic and austerity
2:01:16
Is there anything you can do about it? Have you thought about this before or am I responsible for ruining your day
2:01:23
No, I have thought about it a lot. I'm also a psychologist, a clinical psychologist by trade
2:01:30
so I kind of think about it a lot when I... They need to be doing these things
2:01:34
They are tools for socialisation, and we're not taking the tools away
2:01:39
They're just never in the same room as them, are they? No, they just don't have the same kind of opportunities, I don't think
2:01:45
All I say, I mean, by way of comfort, is that we've all been through what you're going through
2:01:50
and most of us have done all right, I hope, so don't beat yourself up unduly
2:01:55
But be aware of these things and conscious of the fact that it means a lot. I think of stories, bedtime reading
2:02:00
I don't think that's part of the friendship-forming process, but it's certainly part of the parental guilt trip
2:02:05
that many of us go on. It's coming up to half past twelve. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
2:02:10
I've got a guest for you in the studio next. The author of a book that addresses many of the shibboleths
2:02:17
that we frequently find ourselves looking at on this programme but does so with uncommon wit
2:02:22
and clarity his name is mick wright his book is called breaking how the media works when it doesn't
2:02:28
and why it matters and um i know a little bit about what it's like to publish a book that critiques
2:02:33
the british media in ways that the british media won't welcome but i obviously have the benefit of a
2:02:37
massive radio show from which to uh toot my own trumpet mick doesn't so i'm going to try and
2:02:43
encourage you to read indeed buy and then read his book as a consequence of listening to him
2:02:48
explain what's in it in a few moments time but before that amelia cox is here with your headlines
2:02:53
james o'brien on lbc you're mentioning jonathan hates book the anxious generation which goes far
2:02:59
beyond social media actually i don't think it's a i mean it's probably a seminal text but i don't
2:03:04
think it's an infallible one jonathan joined us in the studio that interview will be around
2:03:08
somewhere um but it looks at much broader changes in in society and in family and indeed
2:03:14
in parenting that might explain this hideous statistic today that loneliness among children
2:03:21
or the number of children who describe themselves as having no close friends has risen exponentially
2:03:26
over the course of the last 12 years, 12.33 is the time
2:03:31
I am such a snowflake, you know, there's a little bit of me now that is sitting here thinking
2:03:36
oh, it could be a coincidence. I'm sure Keir Starmer hasn't timed the announcement of his decision to step down as an MP
2:03:44
to somehow disrupt Andy Burnham's first day in Parliament as Prime Minister
2:03:49
Everything seemed so friendly. Of course, I'm just a snowflake. I'm a Muppet
2:03:54
Of course this is deliberate. This has got to be what the kids would call a something move
2:04:00
This can't be a coincidence. There is Keir Starmer announcing his resolution
2:04:04
Right, does it on the first day that Parliament's back? Is that an excuse? Does that give him cover
2:04:08
He doesn't have to do that. He could have waited until tomorrow. he's literally trying to queer the pitch
2:04:15
that Andy Burnham will make to the country a little later today. And you can tell by the way that the news headlines will work
2:04:20
What's going to be the big story? What was the big story half an hour ago? Andy Burnham will today address Parliament
2:04:26
and speak of the importance of a sense of optimism and set out a policy platform that will include renationalisation
2:04:32
or at least public control of utilities. What will it be now? Sir Keir Starmer has announced his resignation as an end
2:04:38
but it's not a coincidence at all. Get over yourself, O'Brien. I just used the word exponential to describe an increase in numbers
2:04:44
I don't think that is one of the lazy journalistic habits that Mick Wright picks up on in his book
2:04:49
Breaking, How the Media Works, When It Doesn't, and Why It Matters. But you pick up on most of them
2:04:54
Mick, why did you decide to write this book? Because I have been working as a media critic for about five or six years now
2:05:05
I started writing a newsletter during the COVID era. And increasingly, in writing that media criticism newsletter
2:05:13
I was hearing from people who read it saying, oh, it's really interesting
2:05:18
I didn't realise it worked like that. So in the end, I sort of felt I need to put together a guide
2:05:23
that explains how it works, why it works, what's going wrong in a kind of, you know, more coherent, longer form, basically
2:05:31
How surprised have you been over the course of that period by things that you didn't know to be true previously
2:05:38
Well, I don't know. I mean, I've been, I mean, not as long as you
2:05:42
but I've been a journalist for 21 years now, so I guess my being surprised era probably ended some time ago
2:05:50
But I think the intensity of the lack of embarrassment that some of our media outlets have has surprised me
2:05:59
The depths, for instance, that the Daily Telegraph has managed to descend to is still surprising
2:06:06
It's, you know, if they... There's no sort of flaw to which they will not dig further down
2:06:12
Well, I mention it because I think you might be a bit more cynical than I am. I'm constantly surprised
2:06:16
I constantly find myself thinking, I can't believe they've gone there, I can't believe they've done that
2:06:20
Today, talking about bringing utilities back into public ownership and trying to work out how public support
2:06:25
for bringing utilities back into public ownership can stand at 80% or 90%
2:06:30
And yet public discourse creates and I speak as someone who been suckered by it I kind of come at these issues with the idea that there something suspect about public ownership
2:06:40
But public support for public ownership is huge. Public discourse, whenever public ownership is discussed, is dominated by the idea that it's awful
2:06:49
that it's a terrible thing. And of course that's an example of a population being gaslit
2:06:53
I suppose we've got to think about the percentage of the population that is against it
2:06:57
which is a tiny, tiny fraction of the percentage of population who own newspapers
2:07:03
Yes, or who have persuaded others that they're about to. You're about your old Steinbeck line
2:07:08
about there being no such thing as poverty in Dust Bowl era America, just temporarily frustrated millionaires
2:07:13
Shall we racquet all through the chapter headings and you can give us a quick pricey of what each one does
2:07:19
Be delighted. How does that sound? So becoming a journalist, that's the personal bit. Yeah, it's the story of how I got into the business and how I went through it and the things that surprised me and the wider history of what it is to train to be a journalist
2:07:37
I think there was a period really in the kind of mid 20th century when journalism was almost slightly more egalitarian because there were way more routes into it
2:07:48
there was, you know, a local journalism infrastructure that meant that people could, I mean, for instance
2:07:54
you know, Harold Evans, one of the greatest journalists we've ever had, comes into local journalism by just, you know
2:08:00
rocking up at a paper trying to get a job there and moves up and eventually, you know, becomes editor of the Times
2:08:06
And that doesn't exist anymore. Although he never became editor of the Times. I met someone the other day
2:08:11
and I'll remember who after I've said goodbye to you, who was explaining that you couldn't come straight onto a national paper
2:08:17
you had to come through, I think it was Robert Harris, actually, you had to come through the regions
2:08:22
or a trade mag, the NUJ, would not allow people to be hired straight from university
2:08:28
and go on to a national newspaper. Mostly. Of course there would be exceptions to it
2:08:33
particularly on the op-ed or the opinion pages, but certainly on the news desk, that speaks of the egalitarianism that you're describing
2:08:40
Yeah, and just more opportunities to get in there, And now, you know, we look across the op-ed desks of newspapers that look at who columnists are and, you know, Oxbridge dominates
2:08:52
Who owns the news? Chapter two. We all know the answer to that, don't we
2:08:56
Yes, but in that chapter I talk about two particular figures. Lord Northcliffe, the creator of the Daily Mail, and Rupert Murdoch
2:09:06
because I feel that those two individuals are basically the creatures that then end up creating the British news culture that we live in now
2:09:17
What Northcliffe builds at the Mail is the vision of a populist newspaper
2:09:22
He understood fundamentally that you don't just report what's going on, you create news
2:09:27
He'd find what people were talking about and turn that into news. And then, you know, Murdoch's father is a kind of protege of Northcliffe
2:09:36
and then Murdoch creates, you know, with the News of the World and the Sun
2:09:40
the tabloid culture that we have now, which is way, way different
2:09:45
How conscious was it, do you think? I mean, was it not just, because it's a little bit chicken and egg
2:09:50
or people like this, we'll give them more of it, or this is what we want people to like
2:09:55
therefore we'll create an environment in which it's... Well, it's a bit of both
2:09:59
I mean, Northcliffe initially, you know, he's a guy who wants to make money
2:10:03
so he makes stuff that will sell. His very first publication is a thing called Answers to Correspondence
2:10:09
which is essentially questions from the public that he finds answers to
2:10:13
But he submits most of the questions and writes all of the answers
2:10:18
and, in fact, stole the idea of that from Titbits where they had had a column called Answers to Correspondence
2:10:24
for some years before. So, you know, plagiarism is the very start of the Daily Mail Empire
2:10:29
Chapter three, what's the story? So it's about what makes a story
2:10:36
like how does something become news and how does it stay news
2:10:40
and what is this kind of, the way that news lives and dies, basically
2:10:47
And I think... And how those questions have got different answers over the last few years
2:10:52
Yeah, definitely. And I think one of the other things we have now is that, I mean, you know this, of course
2:10:56
is that news doesn't, news used to sort of happen. News was a place you sort of went to
2:11:00
like there were news bulletins across the day and you would visit the news
2:11:04
and the stories had a sort of beginning and middle of the end
2:11:08
Now a news story is a sort of ongoing buffet and it never sort of ends and it never sort of starts
2:11:13
and it's very difficult to know where to sort of step into it and step out again
2:11:20
An anatomy of the news. I was just breaking down how the words are used
2:11:27
how stories are structured, even just down to the thing of how you begin and structure a new story
2:11:37
Because a lot of the structure of how news is done is a lot of the way that stories end up being
2:11:42
because they are forced into a certain structure and talked about in a certain language
2:11:47
Is there an attempt throughout to address the question of how a population can end up believing things
2:11:52
that are either damaging to that population or fundamentally untrue or both
2:11:57
yeah 100% and one of the fundamental things that I'm trying to do is make people when they
2:12:04
see a story look and see that underlying structure I think that's important
2:12:08
I know a lot of other people have written very good books on you know the nature
2:12:12
of propaganda and that kind of thing I kind of wanted to write something that's about
2:12:16
well you know why are these news stories like this when you read one
2:12:20
how can you dissect it to see what is underneath because I think that's important
2:12:24
that will let them do that themselves We're going to run out of time. I'm rattling through now
2:12:28
A matter of opinions? That's fairly self-explanatory. Columnists, why they do what they do
2:12:33
And looks at some particular ones. The late Rod Liddle wasn't late when I wrote it
2:12:38
Giles Carr and various others. And some people in the US as well
2:12:42
Just seeing how they get away with what they do, really. Political theatre? Political journalism is essentially like professional wrestling, is my thesis
2:12:51
A lot of it is for sport and for show. and if you're in a green room at a radio station like this
2:12:57
you'll often find people on the left and right getting on very well with each other and then ripping lumps out of them
2:13:03
Well, I think... I do, so don't be shy. Yeah I do because it very performative And then you look at for instance who turns up to the spectator garden party You know there are people who are normally meant to vastly disagree with each other
2:13:16
and they're all there enjoying the same vintage champagne. The impractical question of impartiality
2:13:22
It's about the BBC and the way that the BBC is always shot by both sides
2:13:28
And fundamentally, my belief that the BBC is not left-wing in any kind of functional way
2:13:34
It's a fundamentally conservative institution with a small c. It's naturally inclined to whatever the status quo is
2:13:44
rather than being some kind of nest of radicals. Interviews and the art of war
2:13:49
How do interviews work? Like this one now. But more so things like political interviews
2:13:54
and how do you go about understanding how politicians avoid the question
2:13:59
and how that's changed over time as well. There's definitely been an evolution in how the political interview in particular has worked
2:14:07
I've got a question that I'll end with, but let's just get the last four chapters out of the way
2:14:11
Ethics isn't a county in England. Yeah, the problem with it, what is ethics in journalism
2:14:16
and how does it work and are people ethical at all? A lot of places will say they've got good ethics
2:14:21
and, you know, they're transparent. I should stress that you back all of this up
2:14:26
with countless extremely well-argued examples. The cock-up conspiracy interface, what's that? Well, lots of people tend to think that the media is sort of lots and lots of conspiracies
2:14:37
But actually, when you work in it, you find out that a lot of stuff comes out of incompetence or the random sort of whim of a news editor or an editor
2:14:46
So it's kind of understanding that. Sometimes conspiracies exist, but they're really rare and it's hard to hide them
2:14:52
When you become the story, Chapter 11. Yeah, I mean, that chapter opens with the story of Christopher Jeffries
2:14:59
but I also talk to various other people who have been at the centre of news stories
2:15:06
and how that feels and what that is like. And I think, you know, after this summer, that's even more important than ever, really
2:15:12
Of course it is. You're referring to Jason Arday. Yeah. And finally, the future of the news
2:15:18
Yeah, where's it going? A big part of that is about, you know, is AI, like what's happening with AI
2:15:23
and my argument is I think we need to fight really hard for organic news
2:15:27
and to say that we want humans to write our news and keep writing it
2:15:31
because even though they're very flawed, it's a lot better than letting AI drive that
2:15:35
And it was the word of the day until Keir Starmer resigned, optimism
2:15:40
But is there any optimism? Is that final chapter there a source of any optimism at all
2:15:47
about the future of this industry? I think there's some optimism because local journalism
2:15:51
is starting to come back alive in many ways. is places like the mill up in Manchester or London Centric in London
2:15:56
that are telling stories about... The dispatch in Birmingham. Yeah, about the places where people live
2:16:02
and stories that actually care about. And I think that's a fundamentally good thing. So there is some optimism there, yeah, definitely
2:16:08
You know I like it. I've already told you that. And I hope other people will go out and have a look
2:16:12
Here you go. The first one is in. Lauren says, this guy sounds like he knows the score
2:16:17
That'll do. That could be your next T-shirt. Thank you very much, yes
2:16:22
Breaking, how the media works. when it doesn't and why it matters is by Mick Wright
2:16:26
And if you want a sort of slightly more grown-up version of some of the things that I wang on about on a very regular basis
2:16:33
as well as some things that I don't, because I didn't really know about them as well as Mick does
2:16:38
then I recommend this book very, very heartily. Available in all good bookshops
2:16:43
and presumably all the mediocre ones as well. Yeah, and bad ones. Even the really bad bookshops
2:16:48
It's 12.47. James O'Brien on LBC. And as my guest Mick Wright just pointed out
2:16:54
there is still grounds for optimism in this so-called profession we call journalism
2:16:58
not least because of what is happening at the ground roots level in local journalism
2:17:03
which is undergoing something of a reversal or a recalibration, one of my favourite words
2:17:09
And, you know, if further proof were needed, it is to the new Camden Journal
2:17:13
or indeed the Camden New Journal, that Sir Keir Starmer turned this morning
2:17:18
to announce his imminent resignation from the House of Commons, a story which is, I mean
2:17:24
both expected and unexpected at the same time. I mean, Kemi Baden-Ock said, as we mentioned a
2:17:29
moment ago in January of last year, that she would never have a reshuffle. Keir Starmer said not that
2:17:34
long ago that he would not be stepping down as an MP anytime soon, but that he was not open to any
2:17:39
approaches regarding a job in Cabinet. So here we are. Here we are, James. Yes, Keir Starmer
2:17:45
announcing that he's going to be stepping down as the MP for Hoban and St Pancras. And as you say, exclusively revealed by his newspaper, the Camden New Journal
2:17:53
And he did say just a few weeks ago in an interview with the BBC over the summer
2:17:57
that he would be an MP and he was going to stay as an MP for the remainder of the parliament
2:18:02
Yeah, that's it. He did say that, didn't he? He did indeed. I thought I might have misremembered
2:18:06
About seven or eight weeks ago was his, I think, final trip to Ukraine that he did in the final weeks of his premiership
2:18:12
But now he's issued a statement which says it's been an honour and a privilege to represent the constituency for the last 11 years
2:18:18
It's now time to step aside and focus on other issues. International affairs, including defence, security, trade and technology in a fast changing world
2:18:26
I'll also continue working to tackle violence against women and girls. I think, James, we can read into this that Keir Starmer has probably been offered a job in the last few weeks
2:18:35
And he probably just wants to be able to essentially give notice and start that new job as soon as possible
2:18:40
Potentially there was lots of speculation that it might be a job in NATO that he was eyeing up just a few weeks ago
2:18:45
that his spokesperson was forced to deny at the time. But actually it does make sense for a former prime minister
2:18:50
especially one that arguably, as we were discussing earlier, his strengths are in international affairs on the world stage
2:18:57
Maybe it is something like NATO. And of course the authorities, the parliamentary authorities
2:19:02
have to vet any offers or any roles that former or departing MPs
2:19:07
not just departing prime ministers, might take. I only know that because Boris Johnson chose not to
2:19:13
He announced his job before he told anybody that he had a job and therefore left Parliament, breaking even more rules than he broke while he was in it
2:19:20
Exactly. So this is, I call it ACABA, it's the parliamentary essentially ethics watchdog
2:19:25
that looks at all of these offers that MPs, that former prime ministers get
2:19:30
and they say, well actually there's a conflict of interest here because you sir were in charge of this policy
2:19:34
when you were working as a minister for this department And actually we recommend that there three months six months a year before you take up that job So one reading could be that he has now got this job offer and that he wants to essentially hand his notice in and get this sorted as quickly as possible And also this is obviously the first day that he can formally do this because it the first day back in Parliament So that can
2:19:56
now start that process. So potentially it's that too. But he could have waited until tomorrow
2:20:01
Could have waited until tomorrow. I mean, some will see this as a little bit of a sort of
2:20:05
slight snub against Andy Burnham. It's his first day in the job. It's taking a little bit of the
2:20:10
thunder and stealing it from under his nose, isn't it? By saying, actually, I'm off
2:20:14
Yes, I think I think that. I mean, I can't quite come up with any other reason why he
2:20:18
wouldn't just pause until tomorrow, if not to sort of bit of a yarboo sucks at the man
2:20:23
who probably perceives as having nicked his job. Well, absolutely. And I speak to people all summer that used to work for Keir Starmer
2:20:30
and they are, of course, incredibly upset about the way that this has been done, the
2:20:34
way that Andy Burnham's team essentially organised a coup against a sitting Labour Prime Minister
2:20:39
which has never been done before. And there's lots of very upset
2:20:43
very angry people in Keir Starmer's camp. And I imagine that privately
2:20:48
Keir Starmer probably shares some of that frustration. He was only in office for less than two years
2:20:52
didn't get a chance to do all these things, had a huge Labour landslide and essentially has been forced to resign really quickly
2:20:58
So I can understand why he'd be a bit miffed off. There's one reason why he might not have done it tomorrow
2:21:03
Oh, go on. What's happening tomorrow? It's his birthday. Oh, happy birthday, Keir
2:21:06
I'm not even joking. Who sent me that? Callum. Callum, you need to get out more
2:21:11
How did you know it was Keir Starmer's birthday tomorrow? Yeah, I didn't know that. That's incredible
2:21:15
He's a Virgo baby. I didn't know that. That makes sense. Just to be clear, Natasha, there is no comma in that sentence
2:21:21
that Natasha just issued. He is indeed a Virgo baby. Not a Virgo comma baby
2:21:25
Yes, thank you. What's the precedent here? Who is still in... God, here's a game to play
2:21:30
Who's still in Parliament? I'll run through the last few prime ministers. You tell me whether or not they're still in Parliament
2:21:34
I'm going to lose this game, so I've already got this mistake. Rishi Sunak? I think he's still there
2:21:38
I think he's still there. Theresa May? She's not. She's gone, has she? Yeah, I made this mistake earlier
2:21:42
She's gone. Boris Johnson has gone. He's gone. Liz Truss has gone
2:21:46
She lost her seat. Yeah, she did, yeah. The famous scout there. Cameron has gone. So it is..
2:21:51
Yeah, pretty much just for... Theresa May stayed around for a while after she obviously stepped down as a prime minister
2:21:58
It's a bit of a hit and mix. Most people do tend to leave after they've left office
2:22:03
And, you know, after you've really done the biggest job in politics, I think a lot of people say, well, I want to go and do something completely different
2:22:10
Do I really want to return to the backbench? It's a very odd thing to do. I think Gordon Brown's stick around for quite a long time as a backbench MP
2:22:16
It's a good question, but I honestly can't remember when he stood down. It is a very odd role. I don't think he stood down immediately
2:22:21
No, I don't think he did either. But Starmer is not hanging about. And you've mentioned NATO, I suppose, drawing on his experience as a human rights lawyer
2:22:28
There might be some opportunities in that field, in that world, an international court or something similar
2:22:36
but he is still a relatively young man, isn't he? Yeah, he's, what, 63
2:22:41
Yeah, and comes across as younger. He's got young children. He won't be looking to retire in any way, shape or form any time soon
2:22:49
No, he's clearly got offers that he will have and things that he wants to do
2:22:53
But it means we have a by-election. What can we say about that at this point? Well, Sir Hoban and St Pangra is a very safe Labour seat
2:22:58
Is it? Yeah, absolutely. Is there such a thing still of a very safe seat for any party
2:23:02
Yeah, for Labour in London, for sure. but equally the Green Party have been doing incredibly well in Camden
2:23:08
In the last local elections they did very well in that area of North London
2:23:12
so there is a chance that that will be potentially a battleground if the Greens decide to sort of flood it as a seat
2:23:18
And actually a spokesperson for the Green Party has this afternoon said
2:23:24
Zach has always made it clear he would like to be a London MP. London has been his home for over 20 years
2:23:29
That's according to a Green Party spokesperson. So potentially Zach Polanski running for Keir Star-Mazotti
2:23:33
That would be interesting. It would be really interesting. It might happen. A dimension, wouldn't it, that would be missing
2:23:38
if it were not a Green candidate who was well-known, or at least who voters had heard quite a lot about
2:23:44
And Starmer will follow in the tradition of Frank Dobson and not publicly endorse anybody to be his successor
2:23:50
Yeah, well, the Labour Party will obviously pick their candidate, and I'm sure there'll be a huge batch of people
2:23:55
from the local Labour Party that they'll want to shoo in. But I imagine it will be someone moderately high profile
2:24:01
that they'll want to put in that seat, again especially if they're facing off against someone like Zach Polanski
2:24:06
And it's the first electoral challenge for Prime Minister Andy Burnham. And it's the first electoral challenge for how far we've come from
2:24:10
you know, sort of a few months ago when Andy Burnham was fighting
2:24:14
for his own by-election and now he's going to be trying to essentially fight off others
2:24:20
So what a turnaround. Can I make an early prediction? Yeah, of course you can. Jonathan Ashworth
2:24:24
Jonathan Ashworth, that's a very good shout. He definitely wants a seat back. He definitely wants to be in Parliament. He wants to be back
2:24:28
For sure. And he's well thought of. Yeah, indeed. It's not really got a lot of ties to the areas
2:24:32
He obviously was serving... Where was he serving as the MP for before
2:24:38
It's not around. I want to say Leicester. Yeah, it wasn't at London. I think it was Leicester, actually
2:24:43
He's not a London MP, so potentially not. It's the ghost of Ted Heath, isn't it
2:24:48
The MP, the PM who hangs around trying to cause trouble for a successor. Exactly
2:24:52
I don't think he's that kind of guy that's going to stand and agitate on the backbench
2:24:56
But is he the kind of guy that has just sent a little bit of a raspberry in the direction
2:24:59
I think so. She says, Keir Starmer is just being Keir Starmer. He does things by the book, and announcing it on the first possible day that he can
2:25:05
is simply doing things by the book. I'm excited to see what he does next
2:25:09
I hope it is NATO or something similar. We'll know, presumably, pretty soon
2:25:13
I think so, yeah. And when will the election be? Do we know that yet? It's usually like sort of eight weeks, six to eight weeks or so
2:25:19
Oh, here we go again. But yeah. Here we go again, as Brenda in Bristol almost said. Natasha Clarke, LBC's political editor
2:25:24
Thank you very much indeed. If you missed any of today's show, you can listen back on our free global player
2:25:29
I mentioned Robert Harris in that conversation with Mick Wright a moment ago. Robert is my guest on Full Disclosure this week
2:25:35
You know him as the author of Conclave, perhaps, which, of course, was filmed very recently
2:25:39
or Fatherland, an incredible novel set in a fictional Berlin after Hitler won the Second World War, a brilliant author
2:25:49
and now back in his Roman territory with his new book, Agrippa
2:25:53
But he was a journalist before that, and he was with Tony Blair on the night that Tony Blair became Prime Minister
2:25:58
and we cover all of that in the interview. It's an absolute corker in my humble
2:26:02
You can listen to that and indeed a range of podcasts including James O'Brien Daily
2:26:06
the best bits from this LBC show every day. So download the official LBC app for free
2:26:10
from your app store now. The schedule is returning to normal. Tom Sawbreak will be with you at four
2:26:15
Sheila Fogarty is with you now. James O'Brien on LBC
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