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Labour MP for Makerfield Josh Simons this week announced that he plans to step down from his position, in order to trigger a by-election and allow Greater Manchester mayor Andy Burnham a chance to win a seat in parliament, and therefore a route back into the parliamentary Labour Party, with a view, in theory, to becoming the successor to Sir Keir Starmer as leader of the party and ultimately, Prime Minister. Lewis Goodall sits down with Simons to discuss his thought process behind stepping down in a seat which isn't a foregone conclusion, as well as what comes next for a 32-year-old with a long political career ahead of him. There's also chat about why Andy Burnham is the right man at the right time for Labour, and why the current government is failing to win over the population. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #lewisgoodall #andyburnham #labour #labourparty #government #parliament #keirstarmer #ukpolitics #politics #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
has been a fixture of Westminster political life anyway
0:04
that curious place in which I'm sitting, over the last weeks and months to constantly speculate as to where
0:10
if anywhere, Andy Burnham would be able to find a seat. We've had a sort of roll call catalogue of different seats come up
0:17
whether it's Manchester Rush Home or Bootle or Manchester Withington. I don't remember seeing Makerfield anywhere on the list
0:24
not least because, on paper anyway, it would be easily one of the hardest seats for Burnham to defend
0:30
But we are in that place where Makerfield now is, as I've been saying all morning
0:35
really in a way the centre of the political universe for the next four weeks in Britain. The reason that Makerfield will be and is is because of the man sat in the studio with me here in Westminster
0:44
Josh Simons, who was the MP for Makerfield. You still are, Josh, just about
0:48
I think I technically still am here until the day of the by-election. Until you become one of these bizarre jobs like the steward of the Shilton Hundreds
0:54
or whatever it happens to be that allows you to resign. But let's not get distracted by that and bore everyone to death
0:59
Why'd you do it? It was a really tough decision wrestling with this
1:04
It's not been a long time in the making at all. It's been basically two or three days
1:09
Really? You hadn't had any conversations with Burnham before that time? I mean, we talk all the time
1:14
And, you know, we go for pints. He lives 10, 15 minutes away from me
1:17
And we talk about politics and put the world to rights and whatnot. But this conversation about me giving up, standing aside as an MP, you know, I've been an MP for like two years
1:27
I've got three young kids. I've got a very newborn baby. I should have given that context really for people who don't know you
1:34
You are, yeah, you were only elected in 2024, potentially a long parliamentary political career ahead of you
1:38
And now you brought it to an end for a man who was elected in Parliament, has been around in politics for 25 years
1:44
giving way to an older man, as Harold Wilson once said about Jim Callaghan. It does seem weird
1:49
Yeah, well, I think there are some moments where, you know, my family made this, me and my wife made the decision together
1:55
And the question on the table for us was, is, can Andy Burnham, and if he wins this by-election
2:00
and then goes down to Westminster, can he stabilise the situation our party is in
2:05
which I think is what the country needs? But just as fundamentally for me as the MP was
2:09
is doing this in the interests of my community? Because I'm inflicting, you know, you know what it's like
2:13
The media circus has descended upon Makerfield. Is it in their interest
2:18
I think I'm going to go rent a house there for the next month. Great, you're very welcome to sleep in my living room
2:23
What an offer. Nice sofa bed. What an offer. And in the end, I think it is in the interest of my constituents
2:29
because basically what they feel like is over 20, 30 years, their towns and places like them have not been at the heart
2:37
of how Westminster functions and how Whitehall thinks. And I've really been radicalised as a local MP about that
2:43
Everything I've tried to get done for my constituents, whether it's dealing with the flooding, saving Ashton Library, getting this big link road bill
2:51
It's amazing how difficult it is to get that through even when your own party is in power
2:55
Really, you've been radicalised by that. Just give us a second, like why? What is it about that minister? Because you've been a minister
3:01
You should on paper, people would think, have the power to be able to pull the levers to affect political change
3:06
But you're saying it's actually too difficult. We need to rebuild the levers. You know, that's one of the things I always think about that phrase is people say
3:12
well, I pulled that lever and it wasn't there. Did you ever think about what the lever is, what's underneath it and what's going on in the actual system
3:18
That's what we need to do. We need to accept that the lever doesn't exist. And so you need to build one. And that kind of attendance to the actual system of government is what, you know, I think Andy will be talking about this by election
3:29
I think it's what we need. But let me just give you an example. There was massive flooding in Plattebridge in my constituency in New Year's Day
3:37
when I dug into why there was flooding, basically residents have been saying for 15, 20 years that
3:43
something needed to change about the flood defences they had. They've been saying that the new build developments were causing additional surface water runoff. And then they were met with
3:51
this bizarre panoply of agencies, United Utilities, privatised water company. Then they were met with
3:57
the Environment Agency, should be accountable to the Secretary of State for the Environment and Food and Royal Affairs, but sort of really kind of isn't. And then they were met with their local
4:04
MP and their council who couldn really do anything to get either of those two agencies to be held to account And so what they needed which was to be protected against that flooding it always fell through the cracks of the different agencies
4:16
partly because of privatisation, partly because of how the state works down in Whitehall
4:21
But the net effect of that is that they, again, suffered devastating floods
4:25
And the moment that I thought that Andy Burnham was more than just a pretty face
4:29
dare I say it, was when we were dealing with that. Look at those legs. Yeah, yeah. Fine. She needs to get some longer shorts. I've told them that
4:35
was when we were having one of the meetings with all these different agencies
4:38
and they were saying, oh, cost-benefit ysis, this, or there's this reason why it's going to take longer than residents asked for
4:45
And he would not budge from the perspective of the residents that he'd heard at that town hall
4:50
He just wouldn't, he refused to take no for an answer. And that is, I think, what we need, a kind of belligerence
4:56
and an unwillingness to move from the standpoint of the people who are frustrated by the lack of change
5:01
And I'll talk a little bit about him and why you've done it. But just on Makerfield, do you understand? And you've sort of alluded to this, but do you understand why
5:09
You know, one of your constituents, some of your constituents might feel really irritated by what you've done
5:14
Right. You know, they voted for a Labour government via you for five years
5:18
They voted for you to be their MP for five years. They voted for Andy Burnham to be the mayor of Greater Manchester for a full term
5:27
And now they hear that you're stepping down to make way for Andy Burnham to try and get rid of Keir Starmer
5:31
It all just feels like a Westminster classic Labour fix. Well, if I'm really honest, Lewis, I think that is out of touch with how they actually feel
5:39
I mean, having been there for the last week, firstly, they didn't really vote for me
5:43
Most of them didn't know who I was. You can ask any voter in Makerfield and they'll say it said Josh Simons
5:48
And at that point, my wife was working at Cambridge. So we were living in Cambridge. It said Cambridge on the ballot. You were parachuted in
5:52
Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, and I'm very candid about that. I was very candid with them. And I've worked my backside off over the last two years to demonstrate that I care and that I will do things to change that
6:00
And I think broadly, that's how people feel on the ground. So the thing that's hurt me the most over the last few days is when someone's come up to me, Andy and I were walking down Ashton yesterday, and they said, I'm really sad to see you go
6:12
You were doing a great job. I wasn't sure about you. I voted for you reluctantly, or even I voted reform, and I wasn't sure about you, but you've won me over
6:18
And that makes me think, oh, this is an unfinished journey. I wanted as a politician to get the things I promised to do done
6:24
But the reason why I chose not to do that was because there's a bigger thing at stake here
6:28
And at the end of the day, to go back to that flooding example, what you cannot do as a local MP is change the systems that are getting in your way in order to get things done for them
6:38
And so what's in the interest of my community in a situation like that? They've got a chance now to shape history and to send someone down to Westminster who's got an agenda that will put them, their community and the things they want to change at the very heart of it
6:51
And what they've said to me time and time again is I'm sad to see you go, but I'm glad you did what you did
6:57
I thought it was courageous. I mean, it might be noble puppeteering, Josh Simons
7:02
but it's still puppeteering, isn't it? It's still the Labour Party pulling the strings
7:06
to affect what it wants rather than what constituents and what people voted for
7:11
I'm not sure I get what you mean by puppeteering, but I don't think it's puppeteering. It's an election. That's the whole point about election
7:15
The power is in the hands of my constitution. You've engineered this to happen to try and facilitate Andy Burnham
7:20
who was not in Parliament. There's nothing engineered about it. It's a resignation. I resign. Yes, it's engineered to get Andy Burnham into Parliament
7:26
It's engineered an election. And what happens in an election is the people get to decide what happens next. But you've done it to engineer Andy Burnham getting into Parliament
7:32
But it's not engineering because the people, if they don't want Andy Burnham to be in Parliament, cannot vote for Andy Burnham
7:36
Let me just step back for a second and talk about that choice because it is a risk
7:40
I am saying to my constituents, the power is now in your hands and they might choose to do
7:46
what I don't want Andy Burnham to win that by-election. It's ultimately up to them. And they might say, no, thank you very much
7:52
The Labour Party is done for me. Even though Andy Burnham's platform is to change Labour
7:55
I don't want that. They might say that. But at the end of the day, to me, one of the problems with our politics now is that we have become so constantly driven by avoiding the worst thing that can happen
8:07
We're just terrified of risk, obsessed with process and managerialism and all the rest of it
8:11
And I think people are fed up with that, too. They want to be able to say whoa OK let do this you know and let take a risk And we always miss out on the best things that can happen because we so frightened of the worst things What does it say about the crop of the parliamentary Labour Party and the current government a PLP that you are still just about part of
8:29
that the Labour Party and you have felt compelled to give up your seat in order to get someone who's not even part of that 400
8:36
I mean, was there really nobody within the ranks of the PLP who can do what Burnham has done or can do, in your view
8:41
No, I mean, there are some great politicians in the Labour Party. You know, Rosie, who you just had on before me, is a great example of someone who's not spent ages in politics
8:49
She's got this young, fresh perspective and she always speaks from that perspective and from the heart
8:54
So there are loads of great MPs, lots of whom actually people have not necessarily heard of at this point
8:59
But the thing about Andy that was different to those people is that he's left that bubble
9:04
And it really is a bubble. It's like mad how much it's a bubble and how much it distracts you from what's really going on
9:09
And I think that does give him a way of speaking, a way of thinking and actually, most importantly of all, a way of feeling about how people feel and feeling his way through issues that is different to the kind of basic way that Westminster almost forces you to be
9:24
And I think that is exactly what people want to see. So the other thing I didn't say about you, but could have done, obviously, in terms of the context of your career, is that you were head of Labour Together
9:33
And Labour Together was the sort of internal pressure group, think tank, whatever you want to call it, which was Morgan McSweeney's and which was instrumental in making Keir Starmer leader of the Labour Party and prime minister
9:43
Therefore, surprised even more for many people, it would be you which would give up your seat basically to try and remove him from office
9:50
When did you come to the conclusion that Keir Starmer was not the man for the job? Well, it's funny because it's really been striking watching people process that fact
9:58
And to me, it wasn't even something that I was thinking about over the last few days. But I when Keir Stum was elected leader of the Labour Party, I was getting married in America and doing a PhD and writing a book about AI
10:08
That's what I was doing when I moved back and then was asked to take over Labour together
10:13
I think it was 2022. We were two years away from a general election
10:17
And my job was to try and find the best people in the country to think about some of the hardest problems facing the country
10:22
And I'm proud of what we did that. You know, we push things that people don't, you know, when they put these stupid Westminster buckets that people put them in
10:30
For example, the make work pay bill that's now law. And I'm proud that it's law
10:33
We defended that tooth and nail because we thought it was the right thing to do. We also, for example, really push some of the big investment in energy and transport that, you know, was coming was coming under pressure
10:43
So it's easy to kind of categorize people in these straightforward ways. And you understand the Labour Party better than most
10:48
But most don't. And so most say, well, if you ran Labour together, you must be, you know, eternally on the right on every single thing that anybody thinks
10:55
And I know one thing about you and I can know everything about you. And actually, I believe in security. I believe in strong borders
11:00
I believe in defence. And I believe that the economic change that this country needs to see to benefit my constituents
11:06
who've not felt better off for two or three decades, is really quite radical. We need to rewire the economy. I've always believed both of those things
11:14
That's meant I've fallen into slightly different buckets. And I've been really frustrated as a minister, as an MP with the appetite for radicalism, the willingness to take risks, the willingness to take on the system and bureaucracy that we've had over the last few years
11:26
So I understood that people are complicated and so on. And certainly you've behaved unpredictably
11:31
But nonetheless, you were part of something that was absolutely dedicated, full square to getting Keir Starmer elected and a prime minister
11:38
When did you realize and think that actually he's not the guy? He's not the guy to do this job
11:43
Well, I don't know Keir very well. I never knew him at all, really, while I was running Labour together
11:47
And the point to me was, if you're in 2022 and you're taking over a Labour-aligned think tank
11:52
what are you supposed to do? Of course. Are you going to be campaigning to get rid of the Labour leader who's on track to win a general election
11:57
Were you never very impressed with him? I've met Keir less than a handful of times
12:01
I don't know Keir. And, you know, there is something in that that is a problem
12:05
because people like me who allegedly are stormtroopers, as I'm often called
12:10
it'd be good if they did have more relationship to the person that they're allegedly, you know, So you never thought he was that great
12:16
I just, you know, Keir, to me, when I ran that organisation
12:20
it was about getting Labour into power and doing the big change that the country needs
12:23
It's not, I've never been in it for Keir. It's not, that's not what I'm about really as a politician
12:28
And the same is true of Andy, you know, he is not the messiah And I think people should be quite careful about that Even if he wins this by he has brilliant qualities that I admire in him massively That why I done this But he is not in one foul sweep going to fix all of the Labour Party problems and all of the country
12:42
massive problems either. And just briefly on that, I mean, why do you think Starmer, with his huge majority, why hasn't he been able to affect that change? What is it about him
12:49
Two things, I would say. One is a willingness to take risks and to make big arguments about why we
12:54
should take risks. The thing about risk in politics is that we have to stop thinking that we can
12:58
control everything, that we can map and quantify all the things that might
13:02
control nothing. Right. And so you have to you have to have courage and you have to make
13:06
arguments and you have to reason with people and level with them. And I don't think we've done
13:10
nearly enough of that. And I also think there's something quite deep about emotion and feeling
13:15
Politics is about feeling and emotion as much as anything else. It's about policy, but it's also
13:19
about feeling. And I think sometimes there's been a lack of feeling. You know, the country's had a
13:23
traumatic decade, frankly, and there's a lot of feeling floating about. And if our leaders
13:28
don't seem to feel that with the country, it's quite hard to persuade them to do things differently
13:32
and it's quite hard to persuade their elected representatives to do that. So I think on those two things
13:37
the ability to make arguments and take risks and the ability to feel and tell a story about emotion
13:43
both of those I think have been a bit lacking. And obviously since this by-election started
13:46
the first couple of days in an area, as you know well, heavily leave voting
13:52
the first couple of days of the conversation is being dominated, partly because of what West Streeting said
13:56
about rejoining the EU. Do you think this is going to help or hinder Labour's efforts
14:01
in that constituency? Well, I do agree with what Lisa and Andy said this morning
14:06
which is that it's a bit weird. When you go to make a field, it is very, very rare
14:11
when you're knocking a door that someone brings up the European Union, the single market or the common market
14:15
or even the referendum. It's just not top of their agenda. People want their bills to come down
14:21
They're fed up of having to pay so much for everything. They want their wages to go up
14:25
because they've not felt better off for a long, long, long time. And they want to feel a bit of joy around going to the pub
14:29
Now, if leaders think there is a serious argument for rejoining the European Union that would help with those things
14:36
then fine, they need to make the argument in those terms. But what I slightly worry about
14:41
is that we're having a bit of an identity signalling conversation here. You know, are you like a London person
14:46
who's obsessed with the fact that everything went wrong when we left the European Union? Or are you not one of those people who voted against that establishment
14:53
and we're kind of trying to rehash that argument. I think that is dangerous. It's a mistake
14:57
And it just is not what people in my constituency and maker field are thinking or feeling or worried about
15:03
So would it be helpful if West Streeting would leave this alone? West Streeting can make whatever arguments he wants to make
15:09
And, you know, he's trying to make a bigger case about something that is important as he sees it
15:12
And I do think that's important. I think we've had a massive lack of intellectual argument in our party
15:17
And I think it's important that when people believe something like that, they do actually argue for it
15:21
Just finally, just because, I mean, A lot of people I can just see out the corner of my eye are messaging this and WhatsAppping this and want me to ask it to you
15:28
Has Andy Burnham promised you a job? Some people have said that I'm going to the House of Lords
15:33
I'm 32. Of course, I'm not going to the House of Lords. Some people have said that I'm running for mayor of Manchester
15:38
I do not have the energy for that at the moment. No, it wasn't about a deal
15:42
It wasn't fast enough to have a proper contours of a deal. We've talked about all kinds of things that I might do in the future to help him
15:49
And I want to help him because I want him to succeed. But he's not promised me a job. And when we sat for, you know, quite a long time talking to Andy about what he thought, we were talking about, you know, what's he going to do on energy, the economy, you know, all the things he said on the economy
16:02
There's a big question about how we fancy working in a Burnham number 10. Fancy working in a Burnham number 10. Well, we're a very, very, very, very long way about from that because he's yet to win a by-election that is a really tough by-election
16:12
He's not the leader of the Labour Party when he wins that by-election. How tough do you think it's going to be
16:17
But I want him to succeed. How tough do you think it's going to be? You know that constituency better than anybody. Really tough. And that's, you know, I think that's partly why this matters
16:24
There is the potential, if Andy can win this by-election, that it changes the story
16:29
It changes the story of where the Labour Party's heading. It changes the story of our national politics
16:33
And a moment like that, which can drive change and make people feel just the tinges of hope
16:38
I think that is worth fighting for. Josh Simon, still just about the MP for Makerfield
16:42
the man who's made way for Andy Burnham in that constituency
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