Up next in 10
This is a catch-up version of James O'Brien's live, daily show on LBC Radio from the 4th of August, 2026.
00:00 - What happens after prisoners are released from jail?
49:43 - Should a former neo-Nazi be allowed to run in Somerset council election?
01:41:07 - What happened when you decided to ditch your phone?
02:20:01 - Coram calls for better support to address adopter shortage - Dame Carol Homden, CEO of Coram
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0:00
Three minutes after ten is the time. So, you know how naive I am. I've had this idea for some time
0:09
I think I've probably shared it with you in the past, and it's coming close to fruition
0:14
I wasn't sure we'd ever see the day, but I just wondered. I think other prime ministers used to do this
0:19
I've got it in my mind that possibly Harold Wilson did. But I just mean a kind of conversation with the nation from a prime minister who appears to be human
0:31
And, I mean, it's a long time since we could describe a prime minister as seeming like somebody we might know and think completely normal
0:42
I don't mean any unkindness by that. But I don't think that you would, I mean, which example would you like to pick
0:51
Keir Starmer most recently, never broke out of a kind of behavioral constipation, whether you want
0:58
to describe him as robotic or unfair. And I mean, terribly unjust because it did not do justice to
1:05
what was going on beneath the bonnet. But guess what? Despite the advice of the old proverb, we do
1:11
routinely judge books by their cover. And prior to that, Rishi Sunak, who I mean, kind of human
1:17
but then he'd do things like turn up at a homeless shelter
1:21
and ask one of the people availing themselves of its services whether he was in business or not
1:27
I mean, bless him in a way, we can't help the thickness of the walls of the worlds that we inhabit
1:33
but some people do seem to possess an ability not only to acknowledge the existence of the world far beyond those walls
1:39
but also to appear to be part of it. Before that we had Liz Truss
1:45
I mean, I don't really need to say anything else, do we? Before that, we had Boris Johnson
1:50
a man who would deliberately ruffle his hair and sort of feign confusion before walking onto stages
1:57
because since he was a short-trousered prep school boy, that sort of bogus schoolboy charm had served him well
2:05
But it's not exactly authentic or honest or somebody whom you... I mean, plenty of people did trust him
2:12
and look where they ended up. David Cameron, kind of. but, you know, when he did his hug-a-hoodies stuff
2:17
it didn't really feel authentic or sincere. Gordon Brown touched the Starmers, to be honest with you
2:23
A huge gulf between what went on below the surface, where you had one of the keenest minds ever to grace British politics
2:30
and one of the most developed senses of natural justice and hatred of inequality ever, really, to take a seat in the House of Commons
2:38
But he was stilted and difficult when in front of cameras and, indeed, when on the floor of the House of Commons
2:45
when behind the dispatch box at PMQs. He's fine with a set-piece speech
2:49
but he couldn't move on a £50 note, never mind a sixpence
2:55
And before that, Tony Blair, who, I mean, history is not judging kindly
2:59
for a whole variety of reasons. I mean, the biggest of which obviously begins with I
3:04
But he did communicate, in a way. Watch those things now. I'm a bit of a weirdo sometimes
3:10
I watch politicians with the sound off and wonder how they sort of reach our eyes
3:16
when they're not reaching our ears. And Blair was actually quite strange with the sound off
3:21
He was quite kind of, he was quite mannered, obviously studied. I remember being told a story about the influence
3:28
that Peter Mandelson exercised over him to the point where the person who told me the story
3:33
thought that Peter Mandelson was joking when he said to Tony Blair backstage
3:37
oh God, I missed out Theresa May. and again someone who is sort of
3:42
relatively human but if the naughtiest thing you've ever done is run through some wheat fields
3:46
or you are so scared of putting a foot wrong that that is what
3:49
you will claim then you don't it just doesn't mesh do you know what I mean you just don't look at
3:57
you don't have to like them but you just know them you feel that you know them I've tried to write
4:01
about this and I think I did a half decent job but what I'm trying to communicate
4:05
is not something that is necessarily likeable or affable, but something that is just
4:12
recognisable. I mean, you know, I hate the phrase you'd go for a pint with. Some people think
4:18
they'd go for a pint with Farage. But of course, watch him with the sound off, and he's
4:22
like a sort of Gerry Anderson puppet. It's all mannered and all deliberate
4:28
But the thing about Blair was that Mandelson said to him, when you get out onto the stage
4:32
and the bloke who was interviewing, oh, all right, it was Steve Coogan, who was interviewing him on stage
4:36
at a Labour Party event, possibly even party conference, and Mandelson said to him, when you get out onto the stage, take your jacket off
4:41
put it over the back of the chair and roll your sleeves up. Coogan thought he was joking, or it was some sort of Mickey take
4:46
of the reputation Peter Mandelson had for being a Svengali. But no, they walk out onto the stage
4:51
I can't remember whether Steve Coogan was interviewing him in character as Alan Partridge
4:55
or whether he was interviewing... I think it might have been in character for a kind of..
4:59
a vaguely comedy event. And he did that. He walked onto the stage, he took his jacket off
5:05
he rolled up his sleeves and he sat down. So it was both authentic and inauthentic at the same time
5:10
But let's be honest, it was 52% inauthentic, we can say now looking back, and 48% authentic
5:18
So Burnham is... I don't like the phrase the real deal because just because you seem to be human
5:24
and you seem to be somebody recognisable and you seem to be somebody who inhabits the world
5:28
that the rest of us inhabit, doesn't mean that you're going to be a brilliant prime minister
5:32
I would argue that it's a start. I would argue that it's a heck of a lot better than all of the recent alternatives
5:40
including the ones from his own party quite a big start actually
5:44
but that is an opinion that's not provable that's not science that's just my view
5:48
and I've wondered for some time what would happen if we had a Prime Minister possessed of that quality
5:56
who just simply sought to explain things to the public without second guessing
6:03
without worrying what the newspapers were going to do, without being sort of self-censoring at every turn
6:10
for fear of backlashes and responses, what would happen? What would happen if we had a Prime Minister
6:16
whether we liked their policies or not, who spoke to us as if we were adults
6:22
as opposed to either children, idiots, or bulldog avatars on social media
6:28
with 163 flags on our biography page, Speak to us as if we are adults
6:34
And that is, two weeks in, what Andy Burnham is trying to do
6:40
And he's done it today in the pages of the Daily Telegraph, which is, in some senses, taking the fight to the enemy
6:46
And what he's sought to do is explain the decisions he's taken with regards to the prison crisis, because it is a prison crisis
6:56
And he begins by pointing out some simple facts. Between 2010 and 2024, 500 places were added to the prison estate
7:06
and 23 prisons were closed. As a result of that, the system is now permanently close to capacity
7:12
dangerously close to capacity, and, as he writes, we run the risk of new offenders not being incarcerated in a timely manner
7:20
If you want a little bit more factual background for this conversation
7:24
because God knows not everybody going to give it to you Alex Chalk two months well back in March of 2024 wanted or announced plans for some prisoners to be released up to two months early under the Conservative government
7:41
He subsequently told the Today podcast that there had also been plans to go further and release some prisoners after 40% of their sentence
7:49
and to send fewer people to jail in the first place. He was the Conservative Justice Minister and he recognised, clearly, the crisis that the prison system was enduring, had already suffered
8:02
He warned Rishi Sunak that unless the government came forward with an early prisoner release scheme
8:08
very like the one that Keir Starmer announced in September of 2024, then they would have to get down on their knees and pray, his words, not mine, for the criminal justice system
8:17
so how right wing are you how how much of a big c conservative do you consider yourself to be
8:27
because there's nothing there that you can argue with the crisis in our prisons was inherited it
8:34
was identified by previous conservative justice ministers who called for prime ministers to act
8:40
and the conservative prime minister rishi sunak chose not to kia starma came into power in 2024
8:46
and did immediately what Alex Chalk had been telling Rishi Sunak he had to do
8:50
The alternative being to, quote, get down on your knees and pray. And of course, over the course of the last two years
8:57
the prospects of them being able to increase their capacity to the levels needed were nil
9:02
Whether they've done enough or whether they've done more than they might have done or less than they might have done is relevant to this conversation
9:09
but not the element that we're going to begin with. Because Andy Burnham goes further
9:13
He writes, there is nothing more I could have done without putting the prison system at risk of collapse
9:19
He has gone into some detail to explain to you what his decision-making process has been
9:28
He's at great pains to explain, or to claim, because you don't have to believe him
9:32
that he understands the anger and anxiety of the relatives of and the victims of crime
9:40
and he has decided to make significant changes. Rape, serious child sex offences and other grooming offences
9:48
will now be excluded from the scheme. This is in addition to offenders who are already blocked from early release
9:55
because the people charged with making these decisions have decided that they are too dangerous
10:01
They have been deemed by the courts as the most dangerous prisoners
10:05
That is the decision he has made. You turn to The Guardian this morning
10:09
and it is reported in good faith. Rapists and groomers will not be freed early
10:15
You turn to the Daily Mail and it is not reported in good faith. It appears under the headline
10:19
Burnham's set to free paedophiles and killers early which is simply a headline describing
10:25
the fact that things are going to carry on more or less as they are and as they have been
10:30
He's managed to stick the brakes on some crimes or some criminals early release
10:34
but obviously for numerical and statistical reasons he hasn't been able to put them
10:39
on other early releases that, as he writes again, he would have liked to do
10:44
But, and I quote, there is nothing more I could have done without putting the prison system at risk of collapse
10:50
He's also asked the Justice Secretary to look at other ways to free up prison capacity
10:55
They're looking at the possibility of jailing considerably fewer women and to early release more and more women prisoners
11:02
converting the women's estate to hold male prisoners. There's ideas he is asking for that perhaps Keir Starmer could have asked for as well
11:14
The other thing he did when he was making one of the two or three speeches
11:19
that greeted his appointment as or anointment as prime minister was talk about what right-wing media does
11:28
And one of the only politicians in serious power to properly recognise how bent it is
11:35
how utterly, utterly bent, and how dedicated it is. Do you know what they're doing today
11:40
They're pretending that Andy Burnham is taking a fortnight off or taking a week off, going on a family holiday
11:46
I tell you now, he will be working more hours while he's on holiday
11:51
than either Mrs Burnham or any other partner on the planet would be comfortable with
11:55
But, of course, they've got to start already. So the Daily Mail and all who sail in her
12:00
all the sort of seagulls that follow the Daily Mail in the hope of picking up a manky old herring
12:04
that's fallen off the back of the boat without doing any thinking for themselves. They'll all be pretending that Andy Burnham going on
12:10
quotes, holiday end quotes. Do they think that he leaves his phone at home
12:14
They think he said, oh, no calls for me. I'm off for a week now. I'll see you at the end of next week
12:18
If a war starts, have a word with Wes. Wes is going to handle the wars
12:23
If there's a diplomatic crisis or a terrorist attack, have a word with Yvette Cooper
12:28
Just do not bother me. It's just insane how patronising some people are to readers
12:35
Not least, of course, the Daily Mail. So you can tell that they are worried
12:42
And the thing that they're worried about is the thing that I'm describing as a good thing
12:46
the authenticity, if you like. It seems to be real. If you were responsible for inflicting Boris Johnson
12:53
Brexit, Liz Truss, austerity, I could go on, on an undeserving nation
12:58
then you should be hanging your head in shame and doing penance, but you're not
13:02
You're pretending to be cross about Andy Burnham going on holiday. I think we could loosely describe it as a working holiday. Otherwise
13:09
I'll give you the money myself. So, to the actual prisons, I'd like to do a phone-in
13:17
about whether or not we think it's going to make any difference at all for a Prime Minister
13:21
to actually properly explain, without fear of censorship, without being haunted by the
13:27
spectre of immigration lies, without being frightened of his own shadow, whether or not
13:31
it's going to make any difference at all for a Prime Minister to actually not only show you his
13:36
conclusions and the results of his calculations, but to show you, as every maths teacher in history
13:40
has ever said, to show you their workings as well. And much tougher community measures are coming in
13:48
as well, so offenders who have been released will be tagged, the period of supervision will be
13:53
toughened, and hopefully they'll look at some of the recall legislation that sees people, I've been
14:00
told, and the plural of anecdote is obviously not data, being recalled
14:06
to prison for being an hour late for a probation meeting because
14:09
the bus had been cancelled or there were road works on the pathway to the
14:16
probation meeting. I don't know. I don't know. It is 18 minutes after 10. And
14:21
what is the question to ask here? Do we talk about the hierarchies
14:28
of offending? So he had to pick some, and he picked rapists, child sex offenders, and groomers. You can't release, or you can't
14:41
delay the release of, again, something that you may not be aware of, you can't delay the
14:47
release of PC Andrew Harper's killers, because it would involve rewriting law retrospectively
14:53
which is you know the behaviour of a fascist If you have been convicted of a crime and a sentence has been handed down and they have not been given any sort of special treatment you can then say that sentence
15:07
should have, you can have a review of the sentence, you can go back to court, but you can't just tear it up and throw it out. They are not benefiting from any of the things that
15:15
Andy Burnham is imposing today. And they've changed the law. People seem to be unaware
15:20
of this. In the future, if, God forbid, a police officer were
15:24
to die in circumstances similar to those that PC Andrew Harper died in, then that
15:28
police officer's killer would not be entitled to the treatment that Andrew Harper's killers are currently getting
15:36
They have literally changed the law. They have addressed, I don't know whether it's
15:40
fair or not, to be honest with you, whether the life of a police officer should be treated with
15:44
more value and more sanctity than the life of anybody else, you know, the life
15:50
of a priest or the life of a footballer, the life of a radio presenter. I'm comfortable
15:54
with it. But again, that's a very personal opinion. It's not evidence-based or scientific
15:59
I'm comfortable with the idea of a society saying, if you kill a copper, we will come down harder on you
16:04
than if you kill a gob on a stick on the radio. I'm comfortable with that
16:09
I think it's probably the right thing to do, but it's not science. Harper's Law
16:15
Boris Johnson's government did this. Mandatory life sentences for people who are
16:20
kill an emergency worker in the course of their duty. They're doing it. The law is there, but it's not retrospective
16:26
You can't make it apply to something that happened before the law did, right? You know that, right
16:31
So this is me treating you like an adult, like someone who's intelligent enough to understand this stuff
16:36
instead of sitting here thumping my desk pretending that I don't and believing that you're too sick to care
16:42
It's all there. It's all clear. So what's the single most important question
16:47
that I could ask you this morning that would add to our collective understanding of this issue
16:53
an issue caused by Conservative Party policy, described by a Conservative Justice Minister
16:58
and left to the Labour government to clear up. What's the single most important question I could ask you today, do you think
17:09
I want to know what happens when you leave prison. Because if you're going to be back in a month
17:15
then that is probably the easiest thing to fix. That's the easiest wound to cauterize
17:23
And, you know, these phone-ins are not easy because not that many people are in prison
17:28
and not that many people who've been to prison want to talk about it and not that many people who want to talk about it
17:34
have got much to say or are very good at talking and not that many people who have been to prison
17:39
and do want to talk about it and have got a lot to say will be listening to this program at the moment
17:43
So, you know, as ever, I'm building a cross for my own back in pursuit of shared enlightenment, shared insights
17:49
It doesn't have to be, of course, an ex-con. It could be a probation officer
17:53
It could be a prison officer. It could be a family member. It could be a police officer
17:57
But how many people... I don't like doing that. I'm talking to you. I'm not talking to a room full of people or a crowd
18:03
I'm talking to you, you and you alone. How much do you know about what happens when you leave prison
18:10
I don't know much. I mean, I could start referencing porridge, which is probably what Dick Littlejohn will do
18:18
if he decides to write a column about this. He'll be bringing 1970s sitcoms into it, no doubt
18:22
as the best way of understanding what's going on in the world outside your gated community
18:27
But I don't know what happens when you leave prison. How easy is it to pursue a life
18:35
that minimises the likelihood of you going back to prison? are we almost looking through the wrong end of the telescope
18:42
if you want to reduce prison numbers the easiest place to start
18:48
is people who are being released early and then brought back again
18:52
I think that's just the easiest place to start it's not the only thing they should be doing
18:57
but I just want you and you may find this hard to believe
19:01
because of the world that you live in and the friends that you've got
19:04
and the life that you've led the massive majority of people have absolutely no idea what happens when you leave prison so i want both the that the overview
19:14
answers like this is what happens to everybody and i want the personal answer as well if you're
19:19
minded to do it what happened to you what happens when you leave prison 0345 6060 973 is the number
19:32
that you need. 23 minutes after 10 is the time and if you can answer this question then
19:38
I kind of need you to call me because very rarely I've got nothing else to say
19:45
James O'Brien on LBC 24 minutes after 10 and I mean I don't want to go down that sort of weird
19:52
men's rights route but there is also a conversation to be had
19:56
about Andy Burnham's suggestion that we send fewer and fewer women to prison and use the spaces freed up to accommodate men um but that's not the conversation
20:07
for today today i'm just thinking that uh if you are serious about increasing prison capacity and
20:13
listen again something else that the right-wing media seems to think you're too stupid to
20:17
understand thank god i'm here for you you can't fill a bucket twice so you know let's just say
20:24
that the bucket is full of murderers and it's full and now you've got 10 more murderers who need to
20:29
get into the bucket. What are you going to do? Are you going to let the 10 who've never been to prison
20:33
go free? Or are you going to take out the 10 at the top of the bucket to free up the space at the bottom for the new
20:39
prisoners to go into? I mean, this is just obvious. This is mathematics and this is scientific
20:44
But you wouldn't know it from reading some of the headlines. What happens
20:49
on the day or the week or the moment you leave prison
20:54
Amelia is in Newbury. Amelia, what can you tell us? Hi. thanks for having me
21:00
well depending on your lifestyle so for instance I was put on remand
21:04
because a lot of the conversation isn't around remand so I was on remand for six months
21:08
but that takes up a prison place though right? yes and there's a lot of people
21:12
on remand that have been on remand for over a year so what happened was I was released from court
21:18
so I had been there for six months I was literally just let off into the community
21:22
and a lot of things were up in the air So, like, my work was up in..
21:27
Work was up in the air. I was... Depending on the amount of time..
21:31
Just to be clear, you're not an air hostess. You're saying that your work was up in the air
21:36
as in you'd been out of circulation for six months, so it would take quite an understanding employer
21:41
to keep your job open. I lost my university place. A university..
21:47
I don't think we're very versed in what happens when you're on remand. So it was very..
21:51
It was... They were saying, like, it was like a breach of university rules
21:55
even though technically I hadn't committed a crime because I had been acquitted. So I had to go through, like, education
22:01
to get my place back on the course. And I was lucky enough that my work were like
22:07
as long as I can provide them evidence that, you know, I have been acquitted of all charges
22:12
they're happy to have me back. But obviously people still know I'm on remand
22:15
so it's very, such a weird, I was on remand, so it's such a weird time to return
22:20
So I don't know how much detail you want to share, and I don't know how relevant it is to the point that you're making
22:24
but I nothing if not curious Can you tell me what you been accused of Well I don want to tell you that It was classed as a serious crime put it that way Which is why you on remand
22:35
because either you're going to be a flight risk or they're worried that you might re-offend
22:39
Well, I had no prior criminal conviction, so this would have been my first offence
22:43
And as my barrister said, you don't really go from that to that if you've never committed a crime
22:48
And then as soon as it came to court, as soon as it came to court, your barrister prevailed and that was it
22:53
you walked out of court a free woman with with no blemish on your record yeah yeah but it affected
23:00
it affected my son it affected my unborn child like i was pregnant while i was in prison so it
23:06
was a it was a very layered thing like it wasn't just i wasn't on remand it was affecting my entire
23:11
family they don't talk about the effect that it has so like i i still i'm still paying back the
23:17
money from the year that i couldn't that i didn't complete my degree um today even though now i've
23:23
got a degree i'm still paying for that entire year back to student finance because it's classed as
23:29
an uncle in not completed year so it doesn't come out of my wages i have to pay for that as a
23:33
separate debt like i was um like you spend so much money so i spent like 10 000 pound of my savings
23:41
just sitting in prison looking after my my son and making sure that he had all the stuff he need
23:48
and paid paying all my bills but then there's so many people who don't have that they don't have
23:51
support they don't have family they don't have stability they don't have people who care about
23:56
them and when you left i mean i'm tempted to ask you about what what you think about andy burnham's
24:02
suggestion that we should actually stop sending most women to prison at all because um they pose
24:09
a much much lower risk than men statistically and historically well go and answer that question
24:14
and i've said yeah well i am a part i was a part of the campaign to release pregnant women but i do
24:18
believe it should be for all women a lot of the sentences they can be served in community and they
24:24
are for non-violent crimes the statistics show that women are set being sent to prison for the
24:29
same crimes as men but men are getting to go home and women are being sentenced to them and a lot of
24:35
the women are the heads of the households they are the people that look after the households and then
24:40
they're being jailed and they're losing everything we talk about the pressure on the economy it costs
24:46
£48,000, I think, on average a year to have a prisoner there
24:50
And then you think about all the stuff that you lose and the pressure it puts on the country's pay
24:55
I think you might get this with women. You might be able to get that past the kind of
25:00
the great unthinking mass of the electorate. But you wouldn't get it with men
25:05
You wouldn't be able to say we're sending too many men to jail. I just don't think it works in the land that the Daily Mail built
25:10
I'm not saying... No, I know you're not, but that would be Andy... That's why Andy Burnham is saying it about women
25:16
even though there'll be plenty of men who don't pose much risk either, but people would balk at the idea of them being released
25:21
On the day that you left remand, is the treatment you received from the system
25:25
different from what you would receive had you been convicted and you were leaving prison at the end of your sentence
25:33
Well, I wouldn't know because I had never been to prison before. Good point. Yeah, fair enough. But I think for the..
25:38
Well, you might have asked around. You're going to know more about it than I do, aren't you, for goodness sake
25:42
Yeah, I think a lot of things, is a lot of unknown because I don't think prison
25:47
especially for the agencies that deal with you, like housing, social services
25:53
there's a lot of social workers who have never encountered people who have been to prison
25:57
So they were just the social worker that was assigned to my case, the midwife and stuff
26:02
They had never encountered it housing. The O2, like the phone company
26:07
like my television company, they had never dealt with someone sitting in prison
26:11
So they were chasing me for money when I couldn't provide it. So the life you come out to is potentially much more chaotic and difficult to square than the life you left
26:23
That's really helpful. Thank you. John's been in touch. Women are hilarious, he writes, which means he's definitely not a massive misogynist
26:33
Absolutely no accountability for their actions, he writes, after listening to that call from somebody who spent six months on remand
26:39
and then was completely exonerated of any crime whatsoever. But because she's a woman, John's very cross
26:46
And that's what I mean, you see. If you've got people like John in the world, how can you possibly have sensible, compassionate prison policy
26:56
I don't know, but Andy Burnham's trying. 10.32 is the time. What happens when your sentence is up or when you leave remand
27:04
What percentage of prisoners do you think are on remand? What percentage of the total prison population
27:09
involves people who haven't been to trial yet. In fact, you know what
27:14
That combination, I'll share that statistic with you in a moment, but added to Amelia's phone call
27:19
just let's do it. Let's do this as well. What's the single biggest thing? What's the single biggest reason
27:24
And you can state the bleeding obvious, or you can be super clever clogged. What's the single biggest reason for the fact
27:29
that our prisons are fit to burst? Or, if you prefer, what would be the easiest
27:36
the easiest and quickest way of reducing the problem. 0345 6060 973
27:44
It's 10.32. Dominic Ellis has got your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC
27:53
10.35 is the time. And, of course, it's not just misogynists like John
27:57
that are part of the problem of actually doing the politics on stories like this
28:02
You'll get people who very much see themselves as being on the other side of the political
28:06
various political divides as well. How many people are in prison for supporting Palestine action
28:12
I don't know off the top of my head. I know that four people are in prison for activities
28:19
that a judge decided were terrorist activities. That's four. I think he described one of them as showing extreme and gratuitous force
28:31
against a vulnerable police officer who was acting in the course of her duty. So regardless of what your views are about genocide in Gaza
28:38
the idea that we can solve the prison crisis via legislation surrounding Palestine action
28:43
is respectfully just bonkers, absolutely bonkers. The number of people on remand at the moment in this country
28:50
stands at about 15,386, or 18% of the overall prison population. So that is part of the criminal justice system
29:01
the fact that it's taking years for cases to get to court if it's been decided that you're going to
29:06
be locked up before you are put on trial you're now almost 20 of the problem of course if those
29:12
trials were taking place much more how often have you read in the paper and thought that it's a typo
29:16
this case is expected to be heard in 2028 for example you think that can't be right so it's not
29:22
even the middle of 2026 yes yet you might have thought a couple of months ago so that's a huge
29:27
So that's what I mean. I wonder how well informed we are, on average or collectively, about why this has happened
29:34
Why have our prisons reached bursting point? I'll take whatever answer you've got
29:39
But the question that interests me most, albeit that it really does set the bar high for you being able to contribute
29:44
is what happens on leaving day? What happens when you leave prison
29:50
Adam's in Battersea. Adam, what can you tell us? Thank you for having me on
29:54
You're very welcome. Basically, you get great support when you're in prison
29:58
They put you through. courses get you prepared coming out of the world like coming out into the real world and working and
30:04
being civilized the problem is is probation after coming out of prison probation don't support you
30:11
it's like they're there to treat you like oh you have to be on your tiptoes all they want to do is
30:16
get you back into prison probation that's the problem because i have been out of prison since
30:21
2015 i was sentenced for four years for violent disorder i made a mistake i was young since then
30:27
I have kept my head down, I have had two beautiful children, I've had a wife, but I couldn't get a job because of the criminal record
30:36
Everywhere you apply, I even applied for Uber. That's not the fault of the probation service, is it
30:41
I mean, that's employer's reluctance to hire someone with a conviction for violent disorder
30:45
When you come out, probation should support you and try to put you in the right path and do these courses
30:50
try to get you into certain employments that will accept a convict
30:56
But probation, all they do, they want to just test you, see if you're having drugs or..
31:00
Do we know how much of this is due to the privatisation? It's interesting. I mean, you came out in 2015, so that was before Chris Grayling privatised the probation service
31:08
I think the research I looked at at the time found that serious crimes committed on parole had gone up by 50%
31:15
So whether, on the one hand, they're not doing enough to stop people from re-offending
31:19
and on the other hand, they're not doing enough to help people... No, they're not helping. That's the thing
31:24
If you help someone when they come out, show them the right path, get them onto the right education, get them into employment that will hire them, you will change your life
31:33
People want to change their life. But when they see that their system is trying to always push them back, I don't blame these people
31:40
Put it on a more personal level then. Tell me about what happened to you
31:44
Me? I'll be honest with you. Every time I went to probation, I was trying to get them to get me to employment and stuff like that
31:51
They didn't care. All they've cared is I came on time, signed on time
31:56
and didn't cause trouble and test me for drugs. And then leave
32:00
And if you tested positive for drugs, would they have sent you back to jail
32:04
Yes, they'll send you straight back to prison to force your license. Even cannabis? Even cannabis. That's what they've tested me for
32:10
Oh, was it? Okay, so, I mean, there's something that most people would probably suggest
32:14
is a fairly stupid thing to be going on if we're having to release murderers early
32:19
and we're sending people on probation back to jail for testing positive for weed, for cannabis
32:25
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, I like that. That's a good example. I think they should work on the probation
32:31
When prison is released, work on them because obviously when they're released, before they're released, they've gone through courses in prison
32:37
So they're learning skills and listening skills and thinking skills, how to think and react and, you know, how to deal with people
32:45
They've worked through all this before they've released. And now they've come out, they're not using it
32:49
They're not utilizing it. Some people have had good experiences on probation. Some probation officers historically have been in the job for vocations that are just as strong and powerful
32:58
There is good probation officers. It's like five fingers. They're not all the same
33:02
But you have people that help you. And there's people that, but majority, I don't know if it's a goal for them to send people back to prison
33:08
They have a target or they get pay rise. But the thing is, people need support when they're released
33:14
They need to be, you know, put into education if it's a cause for construction work
33:20
This is what I did inside. It's construction work. I couldn't even get a job
33:24
So what I did, I opened a little logistic company and I started doing careers delivery
33:28
And I'm still doing it now. I've pulled over in the street now to speak to you. And that's what made me actually think, you know what
33:35
We need to learn skills how to develop your own business and how to work
33:39
And you're doing all right, are you? Thank God I am. Yes, thank God you are. But I mean, not everybody's got the wherewithal to do that
33:46
setting up your own business. Did you learn anything in prison that helped you set up the business that you're running
33:51
Oh, that's interesting. Good. There's so many courses in prison for you
33:56
I'll be honest with you, I went into prison as a very naughty boy. I've come out as a very good man
34:01
I help people. I stop sometimes. I see an elderly woman crossing the road
34:05
I help her. I swear to God. Because you know what it is
34:09
It's me paying back for what I've done in my life. I see someone, oh, do you need help to carry your bags to their car
34:17
I do that. I find that doing these great things make me so much happy
34:21
because I'm helping society now. To me, that's me helping someone in the public
34:27
And that helped me in prison. I was doing thinking skills, TSP, I think it's called
34:32
Okay, okay. That was helping me how to think. CBT. I can't remember because it was a long time ago
34:38
No, it's all right. There's so many, isn't there? It gets really confusing these days. Yeah, so if I put you in charge then
34:45
and the one thing you had to do, right, and you're going to like this, there's a pun coming up, Adam
34:51
are you ready for it? Yep. The one thing you had to deliver, am I right
34:56
Yep. No, deliver, because you're a courier. Deliver, because you're a courier
35:00
No? Oh, I don't know why I bother, mate. The one thing you had to deliver was bringing the numbers down right now
35:07
Stopping, bringing down the numbers of people being sent back to jail
35:11
what would be the one single, simple thing you did? I will, as soon as they're released
35:16
I will put them into an employment that hires convicts that can work on them
35:21
so they can feel how it feels to get work and get paid and be responsible for themselves
35:27
There it is. I know. I mean, it's not unlike what, of course, Timpson
35:31
Lord Timpson has done with his company and what his father before him did
35:35
Lord Timpson, of course, stepped down as a prisons minister shortly after Andy Burnham replaced Keir Starmer
35:40
but he would argue, and indeed does on the episode of Full Disclosure that we did together
35:44
passionately and powerfully, that the best thing you can do with a convict
35:49
Victorian language, is to stop them from being a convict again, so that they remain an ex-convict for the rest of their lives
35:59
and will never actually be a convict once more. The best thing you can do is show them, or give them, or help them into a different path
36:05
but that costs a fortune. And the first thing that would happen, I tell you right now
36:09
And I've wondered a bit in the recent months, do I need to dial it down a bit on how evil the right-wing media is in this country
36:15
But I really don't. It's so dangerous and so damaging. The conversation about the wealth tax yesterday really reminded me
36:21
You know what would happen if they put in place a scheme that was designed to help people
36:26
help ensure that they're less likely to go back to prison, the first thing you'd read about would be people pretending that they care about needs
36:32
Well, oh, OK now, so if you want some help finding a job, you've got to go off and mug an old lady, do you
36:36
Well, what about poor old Johnny? who's, fast forward 24 hours, poor old Johnny who's stuck at home with anxiety
36:42
is a malingering liar who's swinging the lead in order to get his hands on benefits money
36:46
But if you can pretend you care about them to attack them, they'll give you a column in the Daily Mail
36:53
It really is that simple. There's no point trying to dial it down or pretend otherwise
36:56
because then everybody's living in the dark. It's 10.45. James O'Brien on LBC
37:03
It's 10.47, you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. See, here's another example of what I'm describing. This is the Prime Minister writing in the Daily
37:11
Telegraph today. I know there will be concerns about who will still be released early, but
37:15
I know I can look people in the eye and say to them there is nothing more I could have
37:19
asked for without risking the prison system collapsing within months. Such an outcome
37:24
would expose the public to enormous risk Police would be unable to make arrests courts would be unable to send new offenders to prison and our justice system would grind to a halt He then goes on to detail the things he intends to do the things that he is doing to offer
37:40
more support to victims and the general public. And I don't know, it's not today's phone-in
37:46
Is he wasting his time? Is he wasting his breath? Because, you know, before the ink was dry
37:51
upon that newspaper, the Daily Mail was already going in with a headline shouting that Burnham is set to free paedophiles and killers early
37:59
because he can't keep everybody in jail and accommodate new offenders, new convicts
38:07
You just can't. You cannot fill a bucket twice. But people pretend, some of the best-paid people in this business
38:13
pretend not to understand that. And the real danger, the real danger of pretending not to understand it
38:20
and presenting your programs and writing your columns from a position of studied and deliberate ignorance
38:26
The real danger is not just that other people who are not paid for their opinions
38:31
end up believing things that aren't true, but it means that the actual solutions
38:37
slip ever further out of reach. For example, how would the Daily Mail respond
38:41
if it was announced today that if you're on probation and you test positive for cannabis
38:46
you're no longer going to be sent back to jail? Presuming that Adam's experiences are still relevant
38:50
ten years after he left jail himself. How would the Daily Mail respond to that
38:57
You don't need me to tell you, do you? People on probation, accused of serious crimes
39:03
locking them up before they've been on trial, is a necessary caution in a well-run system
39:10
but in a system where it can be two or three years before you get to trial, before you get to court
39:14
it's insane. And it's all on the Tories. I mean, of course, these newspapers won't tell you
39:19
And these broadcasters won't tell you that because they were cheerleading for Liz Truss
39:23
for Boris Johnson, for David Cameron, for Rishi Sunak, for Theresa May, for Brexit, for austerity
39:28
They brought it upon this country. And you've now got the second Labour Prime Minister
39:33
in three years trying to undo some of the mess. Could he go faster? Yeah
39:40
Can he undo Chris Grayling's botched privatisation of the probation service in a heartbeat
39:45
or the wave of a magic wand? No, he flipping can't. So don't mention that
39:49
talk about how he's going to free pedophiles and killers early because the governments that you put into power
39:55
over at Daily Mail Towers absolutely ruined everything. 10.50 is the time
40:01
Jason's in Acton. Jason, what made you pick up the phone? Your last question that you asked your last caller
40:06
what would he do to change things, basically? And I unfortunately served
40:12
I actually served five years, four months, did half of that sentence. And when I came out, I wanted to change my life
40:19
So the first thing I wanted to do was get immediate money legitimately
40:23
So I tried to become an Amazon delivery driver just because I figured that was the quickest and easiest way to do that
40:28
Except you can't get car insurance when you've been an ex-prisoner. No one will tell you you can't get car insurance
40:33
except you're asked one very simple question throughout the process of getting car insurance
40:38
which you would have been asked the same question. Do you have a criminal record
40:42
Why they ask that question is beyond me because I don't really know what's that got to do with car insurance
40:48
It's an algorithm, isn't it? And statistically, if you have a criminal record
40:52
you are more likely to get into bother behind the wheel of a car or do something that might trigger an insurance claim
40:59
I mean, it doesn't make sense on a personal level, but on a meta level, on a kind of, you know, causation is not correlation
41:08
it does make some sense. But the problem is, is once you say yes and you don't lie about it
41:13
because you don't want to carry on committing any fraud, you don't get car insurance
41:18
Do we know for sure that's the reason? We aren't. You're talking to me. I know I am, but did they say to you
41:23
the reason we're not going to insure you is because you've got a criminal record? I know I'm talking to you
41:27
They would never tell you that, unfortunately. Well, then we don't know then, do we
41:31
Well, okay, but when you've finished... See, you're talking to me. What I want you to do is I want you to go online
41:36
and try and get car insurance as John White and just say, at the end of it
41:40
say you've got a criminal record. You'll get refused every single time. So then the probation service
41:46
They should have a system within probation that actually finds jobs, that helps you with car insurance
41:52
that actually does things relevant rather than irrelevant. So I had a much better life and a much better job
41:59
whilst I was a serving prisoner. Figure that one out. What were you doing
42:04
I'll tell you, and you won't believe me, but I can prove it to you. Of course I believe you
42:07
I became the front house manager of a golf course. Really? So you were in open prison then
42:13
I ended in open prison, and you're talking about paedophiles and murderers that are getting released early
42:18
they're all in open prison now anyway, being able to walk around in a mix with the public anyway
42:21
Because they have been a judge to no longer pose a risk to the public
42:26
Correct. So they might as well be at home rather than still being in an open prison and it will save the government millions of pounds
42:32
because they're spending millions of pounds keeping them in an open prison whilst they're able to walk around with the public
42:37
Have you got... Yeah, go on. So carry on. I used to leave prison in my own car
42:41
with my own insurance so the insurance company at that point knew that I was a prisoner, I was to drive off to the golf course
42:47
with all the keys to the golf course and all the log cabins. I'll promise you I was the front house manager
42:52
I run the whole place. At 9 o'clock at night, I was to leave there, go back to prison, sleep
42:56
and then leave again at 7 o'clock the following morning, seven days a week. Good Lord. I mean, that's why we're having this phone in, Jason
43:03
Because as I said from the very start, most of us know very, very little about this world or these issues
43:09
I mean, did you get car insurance in the end? Did I get car
43:13
Yes, I have got car insurance now. Because there are, I mean, you have to pay more. There are specialists
43:17
You told me to Google it, so I did. I mean, the mainstream insurers probably will knock you back
43:23
because you've got criminal convictions, whether they're motoring-related or not. But it does say that you will be able to find specialist providers
43:31
that can offer fair and tailored pricing, but it will be more expensive. Unaffordable, yeah
43:36
Yeah, to the point of if you're doing certain jobs, you wouldn't be making enough money to be able to comfortably
43:41
cover the premiums that you are required to pay. That's two. Two for two, then. If you want to stop people going back to jail
43:47
after being released from jail, then make sure they've got something else to do
43:53
Simple. Feels it. Sounds it. Jason, take care. Phil's in Chelmsford. Phil, what would you like to say
44:00
I just wanted to kind of say something a bit different to what all your
44:04
callers have been saying. Basically, I know somebody last year, he was arrested
44:11
he was. He wasn't going through a good period on his life. He made a few mistakes and one of them
44:18
mistakes involved getting arrested for low level crimes. He got arrested. He learned his lesson there and then
44:26
If you know the guy, you know that he is just not a criminal. The complete opposite
44:31
So he was arrested, he was, and he was put on bail
44:35
on the court date. Now, coming up in that But let's just say there was like a six to nine month break between being arrested and
44:44
having that good day. The person I know, he managed to sort his life right out
44:51
He did. He gone from being right at the bottom to thinking he on top of the world He got a good job He has He got a new girlfriend The girlfriend had a baby pregnant with another actually as well
45:06
He really fixed his life up. That was a conjugal visit, was it
45:10
Or, I mean, I don't want to... No, no, no, no. It was all kind of just involved in love
45:16
So during the court case, during... How long has he been inside for
45:21
Since Christmas Eve. Oh, okay, sorry. I was just doing the biology calculations in my mind there
45:26
You'd send me down a bit of a rabbit hole. Easy way of thinking about it, basically
45:31
When he was arrested, not long after that, he had a baby. Before the court case, he was also pregnant again with another baby
45:38
That's the easiest way of pointing it. No, I understand. So you're suggesting he should never have gone to jail at all
45:44
He shouldn't have went to jail. He's not, listen, he is not... No, I mean, I don't know him at all
45:49
No, of course you don't. But there will be lots of people in this category. There's going to be a lot of listeners going
45:56
you know what, you've done the crime, you should do your time. I 100% agree with that
46:02
I completely agree. But then you would also meet people in your life
46:06
that they've done something really bad and they've just been given a slap on the wrist
46:13
They've just had a tag put on their ankles. Now, what I'm calling up to say today is
46:19
I personally think that prisons are overrun because there are certain cases
46:23
where they're not actually looking into it. They're going, you've done this, this is the time you're going to get your..
46:28
It's a funny thing because politically, again, we're back to the Tories, they think it's good news to announce
46:33
that more and more people than ever are going to prison. Let me say so
46:38
And if they've got all the spaces for them, then I'm afraid your mate is just going to have to suck it up, isn't he
46:43
But if they haven't got spaces... 100%. If they haven't got spaces for prisoners who've done something really, really serious
46:48
then I don't think you need to be... you know, a bleeding heart liberal
46:54
to conclude that maybe the people that shouldn't be going to jail quite as much or for quite as long
46:58
are the people that have committed much less serious offences. Yes. No
47:03
But look, all I want to say though, yeah, is basically, if we look at the example
47:08
I've given a K, yeah, the person I was talking about was arrested instantly
47:12
I know the judges are going to notice this. He has fixed his life up
47:16
He has really changed it. He also went for a brain tumour and got rid of that as well at the same time
47:20
Flipping out, he's been busy. When's he out? No, he's very, very soon, and we can't wait
47:26
And what, I know you're being diplomatic about who it is, but what happens on the day he lives
47:32
I mean, he's obviously got people who care about him, most obviously you. A hundred percent
47:36
But he needs to get back into work, he needs to... A hundred percent
47:41
This is what I'm saying, is he had everything to look forward to
47:47
I'm not going to say the crime that was done. for everyone who's listening
47:52
no one's going to know. It is very low level, do you know what I mean
47:56
It's almost laughable, like that's how low level it is. And yeah, and so he's done..
48:02
Go on. What I'm trying to say, though, is he's gone through all of that
48:06
to make his life better for a judge to then go, do you know what, mate
48:11
Nah, you're going to go sit inside now for God knows how long
48:16
You've now lost your job. your family that he's left behind is now struggling with India
48:23
like the bills, the electric, everything. He's now worse off. He is actually coming out of prison in death
48:32
Yeah, yeah. I mean, these are simple but effective nuggets of knowledge, aren't they
48:37
If your top priority is to reduce the number of people in prison
48:41
without endorsing early release or more early release, then you need to either look at softer sentencing
48:50
or you need to look at the question of whether or not everybody in prison should be in prison
48:54
And of course, some people will be having... Well, they won't today
48:57
Today they'll be pretending that it's really simple and easy to understand and that it's not the fault of the Tories
49:02
and that everybody in prison deserves to be there. And if there was any justice at all
49:07
we'd be throwing away the key. But if you're going to be intelligent about it, these are the questions that you need to ask
49:11
These are the bitter pills that need to be swallowed and the difficult messages that need to be delivered
49:15
And I don't even know how difficult they are, reading Andy Burnham's piece in The Telegraph today
49:19
This makes me feel like I'm being treated like an adult by a Prime Minister who speaks a language that I
49:25
understand. And I don't know whether that works once it's been put through the
49:29
mangle of media lies and manipulation and you end up thinking that they're going to be releasing all manner of hideous
49:35
miscreants probably into the house next door to you. James O'Brien on LBC
49:43
I just think she's fantastic. Did you hear that clip of Cammie Baden-Ock
49:47
in the news the only question i ever really asked myself about cami badenard is does she genuinely
49:52
not understand what she's talking about or is she being disingenuous or dishonest and i usually plump
49:59
for the former and then i like her even more because i thought you know that level of confidence
50:04
imagine what you could do if you had that level of confidence despite having very few of the gifts
50:10
that would normally justify that level of confidence i've said it before and i'll say it again
50:14
If I had Cami Badenoch, self-belief, I'd be Pope. It doesn't matter that I'm married and I've got children
50:20
I'd somehow manage to work my way. I'd just be Pope. That level of self-belief is extraordinary
50:25
So let me remind you of a couple of things before we move on to a linked but different question
50:31
Alex Chalk, who was the Conservative Justice Secretary at the time, warned Rishi Sunak that unless the last Conservative government
50:38
came forward with an early prisoner release scheme, similar to the one announced by Labour last September, September 2024
50:47
then they would have to get down on their knees and pray for the criminal justice system
50:54
That's a Conservative Justice Secretary telling a Conservative Prime Minister that if they didn't do what Labour has done
51:05
then the entire criminal justice system would fall apart and they themselves, the Conservatives
51:11
and indeed by association the rest of us would have to get down on our knees and pray
51:17
A colleague of Kemi Badenok telling a colleague of Kemi Badenok that unless they did what the Labour Party did
51:25
what the Labour government did a few months later, then everything would fall apart
51:30
And Rishi Sunak chose not to do it because he knew he was going to call an early..
51:34
In fact, hand on heart, is this Mystic Jim? I don't think we'll ever find out
51:38
but I might do a little Mystic Jim jingle anyway for you in a moment. I think this was
51:42
probably one of the main reasons why Rishi Sunak called that election
51:46
so early in the first place. He was just looking for the reasons why he did it. He could
51:50
have done a Mr. McCorber, you know, that there could have been yet another migrant
51:54
crisis, something terrible could have happened, in which case politicians sometimes can make
52:00
political capital, but the mystery, it took everybody by surprise, the timing
52:06
of that election call, or don't at me to say it didn't take you by surprise, but do at me to say, actually, James, you predicted it
52:12
you must have forgotten, because that's possible, but I don't think I did. I think I was as surprised
52:16
by it as everybody else. If you now look back two and a half years later and try to work out why he
52:24
did it I bet this was part I don want to be the Prime Minister who has to announce that we releasing murderers early This is so important because when I talk about right media
52:35
of course I'm also talking about the creation of a context in which someone like Kemi Badenok
52:39
can look you in the eye and talk undiluted bilge. So Kemi Badenok's colleague, Alex Chalk, told Kemi Badenok's colleague, Rishi Sunak
52:49
that unless they implemented a programme of early release, the criminal justice system would collapse
52:56
And the programme of early release that they failed to introduce, Rishi Sunak instead, called the general election
53:03
was pretty much identical to the one that the Labour government was compelled to introduce in September of 2024
53:11
And yet, here is Alex Chalk and Rishi Sunak's colleague, Kemi Badenoch, either, and I'll leave you to decide
53:17
either having no understanding of what she's talking about, I mean zero understanding of what she's talking about
53:28
or being so deeply, deeply disingenuous that it almost beggars belief. If there's a third alternative here, tell me what it is, right
53:38
In 14 years of Conservative government, there was an early release of about 10,000 prisoners
53:42
We have had 60,000 released under Labour in just two years. You cannot compare the two situations
53:48
We do need to solve the problem of prison overcrowding. We said we were going to build prisons in the Conservative Manifesto
53:55
Covid derailed that programme. We still need to build prisons. When did Covid kick in
54:01
2020, 2021 was it? When did the Tories get in? 2010. I mean, even numbers are her enemy
54:08
But do you think she doesn't understand how stupid she is sounding, how stupid she is being
54:12
Or do you think she knows and thinks, I'm Kemi Badenoch, I can style this out
54:18
I honestly don't know. I don't know. Is she delusional or daft
54:24
Delusional, daft? No, is she delusional or dishonest? Anyway, I love her
54:28
I think she's absolutely fantastic. And if I had one scintilla of that self-belief
54:32
I think I would be playing in goal for England, actually. I'm bored of being Pope
54:37
Too much kneeling. I'm going to be playing in goal for England if I had a scintilla of Kemi Badenoch's self-belief
54:45
And now we come to a story that I hadn't originally realised
54:50
is linked to the conversation that we had in the last hour. So here's a test of all our prejudices
54:59
The last hour was contingent upon the idea of rehabilitation and redemption, wasn't it
55:04
Redemption is a slightly religious term. It's one that I grew up steeped in as a Catholic
55:09
The reason why we go to confession is to confess our sins and atone for them and be forgiven
55:13
And then we're given a penance, usually a, I mean, if you've been really naughty, it might be ten Hail Marys
55:19
And then the slate is clear. It's fantastic, really, if you believe in that sort of thing
55:24
You can just tell a priest that you've committed some sins or crimes
55:28
The priest's not allowed to tell anybody else. And lo and behold, the slate is clear. There was a reason why at my school, where the housemasters were priests, you weren't allowed to confess to your own housemaster
55:38
For slightly obvious reasons. Otherwise, if they were searching for the bloke that nicked the altar wine and got absolutely slaughtered around the back of the sacristy last Saturday night and everyone was on suspension until you came forward and confessed
55:50
If you then went to confession when your own housemaster was sitting behind the curtain and said, I'm terribly sorry, Father, for I have sinned
55:57
It is three weeks since my last confession and these are my sins. and then he said, I'm the one who stole the altar wine from the chapel
56:05
and got absolutely stocious around the back of the sacristy with my mates last Saturday night
56:10
And so you have technically confessed, you have technically owned up, but the priest isn't allowed to tell anyone
56:15
so he should, by rights, lift the suspension on everybody else because you have come forward
56:20
This is quite niche. This is quite niche, isn't it? But it is also, I think, quite a sophisticated ysis
56:27
of some of the flaws in the Catholic confessor's aureal doctrine. but I believe in redemption and I believe in rehabilitation
56:36
But do I believe that a former neo-Nazi activist with convictions including the harassment of a Jewish MP
56:42
should be able to stand as a Conservative councillor or Conservative candidate for a local election in Somerset
56:49
I am not even exaggerating. There is a character called Joshua Bonehill-Payne
56:55
who was very active online, is due to stand for election to Somerset Council next year
57:02
in a district, a new district. He has told The Guardian newspaper
57:07
that he was an executive member of the Tories' Yeovil branch. He told The Guardian that the branch and indeed the party
57:15
are fully aware of my past. Our chairman has been a vocal advocate
57:19
and has supported me since I became a member of the party. I am very grateful for the support
57:25
He has previously described himself as a nationalist fascist theorist and supporter of white rights
57:34
Critical of Labour and of Reform UK, the website that he runs has been very, very warm towards Kemi Badenow
57:42
So we've got something in common, me and this former neo-Nazi, is that we both think Kemi Badenow's fantastic
57:48
although possibly for slightly different reasons. He has a conviction for assaulting a police officer
57:53
and burglary of a police station, and he was convicted in 2014 of malicious communications
57:58
over an anti-Islam hoax that led to death threats against the owners of a pub in Leicester
58:04
He was jailed in 2015 for more than three years after posting vile anti-Semitic material online
58:10
before a planned neo-Nazi rally. In 2016, he was found guilty of racially aggravated harassment
58:17
over posts directed at the then Labour MP, Luciana Berger, who is Jewish
58:22
He called her a, and I'm quoting now, He called her a rodent and an evil money grabber
58:28
He told The Guardian his convictions had been spent and that he had various Home Office counter-extremism certifications
58:34
and that he'd spoken alongside MPs about his past and highlighted anti-Semitism faced by Britain's Jewish community
58:42
Reform UK said last night, Kemi claims to support the fight against anti-Semitism
58:46
yet selects a convicted neo-Nazi, a convicted, forgive me, a convicted anti-Semite Nazi
58:55
as a candidate. The Conservative Party has been approached for comment and we've actually got a comment from the Conservative Party
59:03
that I will share with you now. And I just want to tell you something
59:07
There's not a lot that's funny about this story, particularly if you are on the receiving end of Bonehill Payne's abuse or hatreds
59:15
But Cami Bedanoff's Conservative Party has recently told Grant Shapps that he's not allowed to run as a candidate
59:22
Grant Shapps, was he a Home Secretary? He had loads of jobs. And that's just the ones he had under his own name
59:27
So, under Kemi Badenot, there's no room in the Tory party for Grant Shapps, who has reportedly been told
59:32
that he will not be accepted as a candidate for the next general election
59:36
That's Grant Shapps, former Tory party chairman. Not allowed to run for the Tories
59:41
under Kemi Badenot's glorious rule. Joshua Bonehill-Payne, a former neo-Nazi activist with convictions including the harassment of a Jewish MP
59:52
he can. So what has, this isn't the phone-in, what has Joshua Bonehill-Paine got that Grant Shapps does not
1:00:00
That's not the phoning. Here is the... And I really want you to think about this
1:00:04
I really want you to think about this. I want you to think about rehabilitation. I want you to think about redemption
1:00:10
I want you to think about second chances. And I want you to think about something I said to you last week
1:00:15
The fact that that old adage about a leopard being unable to change its spots is untrue
1:00:19
I mean, it's technically true if you're a leopard. But I don't think there's much point being alive if you don't try to be better
1:00:26
if you don't try to change. This might be a consequence of my Catholic upbringing
1:00:30
but you can arrive at the same conclusion via completely different routes. What's the point of doing anything if you're not trying to be better
1:00:37
And by being better, you usually end up happier. But that's not the point
1:00:42
A leopard can change its spots. I want you to think about all of that as I read you
1:00:45
a statement from a Conservative Party spokesman. Mr. Bonehill-Payne's past actions were indefensible
1:00:54
He was rightly punished and served his sentence. Mr Bonehill Payne has explained that he has sought to make amends through counter-extremism work
1:01:02
The Conservative Party believes in rehabilitation and that people can change, but all members must adhere to our code of conduct and our values
1:01:13
Ultimately, the decision to elect him will be one for the public
1:01:18
What do you think? What do you think? he's done his time, he's served his sentence
1:01:30
he apparently repents, and you can't read the guy's mind, you can't, you know, cut open his brain
1:01:38
and work out what's going on in there. The only chance you've got of knowing whether or not
1:01:42
he deeply regrets what he's done before is his own testimony. If, as he's claimed it's true
1:01:49
and I've got no reason to doubt him, that he has done work via the home
1:01:56
office presumably as part of his rehabilitation possibly while he was in prison in the arena of
1:02:01
community cohesion that he's working to spread the word on the evils of anti-semitism then
1:02:10
why shouldn't he be able to run for the Tories maybe we should leave Grant Shapps out of this
1:02:16
I think for the duration he's entitled to be a little bit aggrieved I think that a former
1:02:24
a neo-Nazi activist can stand as a Tory candidate, but he, a former Tory party chairman, can't
1:02:30
But he describes his convictions as spent, which I think is accurate
1:02:36
Describes himself as having held various Home Office counter-extremism certifications, which will be courses, I think, that he's been on
1:02:43
And he says that he's spoken alongside MPs about his past and highlighted anti-Semitism faced by Britain's Jewish community
1:02:50
I'm not a member of Britain's Jewish community, But I would remind you that he also went to jail for malicious, or he was convicted in 2014 of malicious communications over an anti-Islam hoax
1:03:03
So he seems to be an equal opportunity, or he was an equal opportunities hateful bigot, targeting both Jews and Muslims
1:03:11
And that one led to death threats against the owners of a pub in Leicester. And I honestly don't know
1:03:18
Is it head versus heart for you, this one? or is it really clear
1:03:23
that he should or should not be allowed to stand for the Tories I wish I'd never mentioned Grant Shapps now
1:03:28
I mean between you and me I wish I'd never heard of Grant Shapps but I have and now I've mentioned him
1:03:33
and it is slightly funny but it puts an unhelpful complexion on this story
1:03:38
is this a sort of paean to rehabilitation and the importance and power of redemption
1:03:46
or is it an appalling misstep I don't know what I think
1:03:52
hang on I thought I would have a really strong view by 18 minutes after 11 on Tuesday morning
1:03:58
you can't you can't have a neo but then what if he's not that person anymore
1:04:03
no you can't have a neo-nazi anti-semite Islamofut but he's not those things
1:04:10
anymore he's no longer those things 03456060973 what do you think you might know more about this dude
1:04:19
than I do, but he doesn't sound very pleasant, unless, of course, he has completely
1:04:23
changed, in which case, he probably deserves... Does he deserve? I mean
1:04:29
it would be better if he went off and did something else and stayed away from politics, I would suggest
1:04:32
with his past, possibly charity work, but he's got as much right to his decisions as I do
1:04:37
to mine. What, what, like, I want to know what you think and why, because I can do this either way
1:04:44
Of course he should be able to stand. He, he He has served his time
1:04:48
He has paid his dues to society. He has changed his ways
1:04:53
And he is acting in a way that proves it. Why on earth should he be treated differently from at all
1:04:58
And don't forget, we were talking a moment ago to a fellow who came out of jail and couldn't get a job
1:05:02
because he couldn't get insurance on his car. This bloke's coming out of jail and he's being offered an opportunity
1:05:07
to stand as a conservative candidate. Two wrongs don't make a right. And on the other hand, of course
1:05:13
I just don't know that I can see the words former neo-Nazi activist alongside conservative candidate
1:05:19
at a local election in Somerset. So tell me what you think and why. All right? 0345 6060 973
1:05:27
James O'Brien on LBC. So, a simple enough question. Well, is it a simple question even, I wonder
1:05:37
Because you might think that people who've committed some crimes and have repented and served their sentences
1:05:44
should be allowed to stand. as conservative candidates, or Labour candidates, or Reform UK candidates
1:05:49
but not these particular offences. It might be, as I think it is for me
1:05:53
that the former neo-Nazi activist element of his record that makes it almost unbelievable to me
1:06:01
that he would now be standing as a conservative candidate. But is that fair
1:06:05
If he had done other things, if he'd committed other crimes, if he'd pursued other paths that were both hideous and or criminal
1:06:12
but he had genuinely repented and he had rebuilt his life, then would we be sitting here saying
1:06:18
he shouldn't be allowed to run for office? Would you feel differently if it..
1:06:22
I mean, this has got to be a footballification-free zone. No? It's got to be a footballification-free zone
1:06:30
You can't come to this and say, I don't mind a Tory having a candidate
1:06:34
who's a former neo-Nazi activist, but I certainly don't think the Labour Party
1:06:38
should be able to do it. They have asked Kemi Bader-Nock about this, this very morning and this is what she had to say. So I want to be very clear and I think people
1:06:47
can look at me and know that I'm not a person who would be recruiting neo-Nazis. Josh is someone
1:06:53
who actually has been certified by the Home Office to train police officers on anti-Semitism and on
1:07:01
countering extremism. Yes he is somebody who had been previously convicted but he is someone who
1:07:07
has shown contrition for his crimes, has been rehabilitated and is spending every
1:07:11
day working to solve the very problem which he knew he had caused previously
1:07:16
He's going up and down the country training people and the Conservative Party believes in second chances. This is not just someone that we've picked up
1:07:23
who a convicted criminal This is somebody who is actively working to help communities especially Jewish communities and this is what I want to see I want to see second chances for good people for people who learned their lessons
1:07:36
for people who are showing that they know what they did was wrong. What I don't want to see is early release of people who have no contrition whatsoever
1:07:45
who don't care, and who are going to be out on the streets actually harming people
1:07:49
I told you she's incredible. She didn't even pause. What do you think about this neo-Nazi that you've..
1:07:55
Well, I would never recruit a neo-Nazi. What do you think about this neo-Nazi you've just recruited
1:07:59
Well, people can look at me and see that I would never recruit a neo-Nazi. Can I rephrase the question
1:08:04
So, well, ex-neo... What about this ex-neo-Nazi that you've recruited? Well, people can..
1:08:08
I'm going to play that to you again, and then we're going to get the... Because I told you she was brilliant
1:08:11
You think I'm exaggerating or that I'm being tongue-in-cheek? If I'd had that clip 20 minutes ago, I wouldn't have done an introduction
1:08:17
I'd have just played you that a couple of times and said, what do you reckon? Has she gone stark staring mad
1:08:22
Or is this a wonderful tribute to the powers of redemption and rehabilitation
1:08:27
Here is the leader of the Conservative Party justifying the inclusion on a candidate list in Somerset
1:08:32
a former neo-Nazi activist with convictions including for the harassment of a Jewish MP
1:08:39
God, she's magnificent. I want to be very clear. And I think people can look at me and know that I'm not a person who would be recruiting neo-Nazis
1:08:46
Josh is someone who actually has been certified by the Home Office to train police officers on anti-Semitism and on countering extremism
1:08:57
Yes, he is somebody who had been previously convicted, but he is someone who has shown contrition for his crimes, has been rehabilitated
1:09:04
and is spending every day working to solve the very problem which he knew he had caused previously
1:09:10
He's going up and down the country, training people. And the Conservative Party believes in second chances
1:09:15
This is not just someone that we've picked up who's a convicted criminal
1:09:19
This is somebody who is actively working to help communities, especially Jewish communities
1:09:25
And this is what I want to see. I want to see second chances for good people, for people who've learned their lessons
1:09:30
for people who are showing that they know what they did was wrong. What I don't want to see is early release of people who have no contrition whatsoever
1:09:39
who don't care and who are going to be out on the streets actually harming people. Okay, I mean, I don't know whether I'm coming or going now
1:09:46
Wasn't she absolutely on her high horse about Louise Hay's spank conviction for not reporting that she'd found a phone that she'd reported as stolen
1:09:56
I'm pretty sure she was. I mean, listen, maybe there's a universe in which not telling the police
1:10:02
that you'd found a phone that you'd previously reported, that you thought had been stolen in a previous..
1:10:06
Or maybe she told more egregious lies, but they weren't proven she wasn't found guilty of that
1:10:10
maybe that's worse in some ways than being a former neo-Nazi activist with convictions including the harassment
1:10:17
of a Jewish MP. Or maybe being a Conservative candidate for a local
1:10:21
election in Somerset is not comparable to being an MP. But I
1:10:24
right, if I didn't know what to think before I really don't know what to think now
1:10:28
So what do you think? Alex in Manchester. Alex, what do you reckon? I don't like that
1:10:35
I don't like that. How can you come on with a long pause like that? You're supposed to be
1:10:38
turning up with pungent opinions. He eats after 12 hours. Go on
1:10:42
He has to go to hospital. Well, he can crash and go into a coma. But if he eats, he's absolutely fine
1:10:48
But he's ill, so he's doing his off. I don't know what's happened to the phone line there
1:10:52
26 minutes after 11 is the time. Tina is in Haddonham. Tina, what would you like to say
1:10:57
I'd like to say hallelujah. I've been trying to get on your programme for years
1:11:01
Well, don't blow it, Tina. I'll try not to. I think there's only one decision here
1:11:08
which is yes, one answer I mean. And the reason that it's yes is that if I don't
1:11:16
or if we as a society don't believe in redemption and the possibility of changing the nature of a person
1:11:23
why do we have prisoners who might just as well execute everybody
1:11:29
I think you might be right. If there was no possibility. I think you might be right. Is it Matthew at Hope Not Hate
1:11:33
One of the people at Hope Not Hate had some fairly pungent far-right associations
1:11:38
back in the day. He's written incredibly powerfully about how he's seen
1:11:42
the light. I mean, if he has seen the light, and Kemi Bader not, has no reason
1:11:49
to... I mean, she'd have looked into it more than we can and more than we have
1:11:54
She doesn't want one, does she? She doesn't want a pretender. What if
1:12:00
he wanted to be an MP? Your position wouldn't change, would it
1:12:05
No, it wouldn't. What if you were Jewish? or a Muslim and his hatred had been directed at your community personally
1:12:12
No, I don't think so. It's hard to say, but, I mean, I'm a Christian
1:12:18
and plenty of Christians are being persecuted all around the world. Not me personally, but plenty are
1:12:26
I mean, we have people nailing babies like they were on a cross to the door
1:12:32
I'm beginning to see why you've struggled to get on in recent years, Tina. But I know, but I am, obviously, I'm delighted that you have today
1:12:38
I've just, just... What have I said wrong now? What have you taken offence of
1:12:42
I've not offended at all. I've got no idea what you've got. People named after doors
1:12:48
Nailed to doors. Nailed to doors. Nailed? Right. Okay. I mean, yeah, well, I don't think we can all agree that Kemi Baden-Ock should not have
1:12:57
anybody on the Conservative candidates list in Somerset who is suspected of nailing babies
1:13:01
to doors. Thank you, Tina. Well, obviously not. It is 11. Well, exactly. Obviously not. It is 11.28. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:13:11
The question, in case you've just tuned in, is about a Conservative Council candidate who has a fairly fruity history
1:13:20
And judging from some of my, what would we call it, messages, some of the contents of my inbox, you know a lot more about it than I do
1:13:28
none of which is grounds for doubting his sincerity or doubting the reality of his redemption, his rehabilitation
1:13:37
I get messages. I think, actually, she's pushed me back where I should have been in the first place
1:13:42
I get messages, not as many as I used to do because the world has turned
1:13:46
But some of the things I've treasured most over the years are the communications that I get from people
1:13:51
who have stumbled across the rubbish that I spout every day and reviewed some of their opinions as a result
1:13:58
Most obviously, at a relatively low level, you help people to realise that the problems in their lives
1:14:04
have not been caused by immigrants. They are much more likely to have been caused by the kind of people
1:14:08
who are either telling you to hate immigrants or sponsored by people who want you to hate immigrants
1:14:13
because the alternative would be to look at the distribution of wealth and fundamental inequality in this country
1:14:18
So these are the compliments that I treasure the most. I've also had a handful, it's not something that happens every day
1:14:25
of rather more profound communications from people who would tell me, for example
1:14:30
that they had been either in or flirting with the English Defence League and similar
1:14:36
And having these things explained calmly and clearly by me have brought them back, not just from the brink
1:14:43
but in some cases from well over the brink. The best I've ever had
1:14:48
and again, I've had more than one of these, are when the partners of people tell me
1:14:53
It happened when I been doing events with my books when the partners of people have queued up to have their book signed and have said to me you know thank you for help
1:15:05
And I'm not boasting or claiming any particular gifts. I'm just telling you what I love most about my job sometimes
1:15:12
is the fact that you can help people utterly review their worldview
1:15:17
and at the end of it be better and nicer than they were before
1:15:21
So why on earth have I got a problem with this story? because, well, I'm suspicious or sceptical, not really
1:15:30
Kemi Badenor, and I was taking the mickey earlier, of course, when she was talking about prisons places
1:15:34
but she is making perfect sense. Of course, everybody should be free to stand as a candidate
1:15:39
for the Conservative Party if they're committed to current Conservative Party policies
1:15:43
and they repent of their sins and misdemeanours in the past. Or should he
1:15:48
0345 6060 973. It's 11.31, and Dominic Ellis has your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC
1:15:56
It is 11.33 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:16:02
So you can't stand as a candidate for the Tories if you support net zero
1:16:08
and believe in the efficacy of the Human Rights Act. But you can stand for Cami Baden-Otz Tories
1:16:16
if you used to be a neo-Nazi activist and you have convictions, criminal convictions
1:16:21
including for the harassment of a Jewish MP. make it make sense because i think it does actually make sense but i appreciate that i'm
1:16:29
neither jewish nor muslim to communities um at whom his peculiar brand of bigotry has been
1:16:35
very specifically directed so maybe that would change as well but it's extraordinary that we're
1:16:41
even having this conversation um about a party that grant shaps has been told he's not allowed
1:16:46
to run for cameron's in bromley cameron what do you reckon james this is outrageous chap i can't
1:16:52
believe that we're even having this conversation. It's bonkers. I'm an accountant
1:16:56
and if I stole a packet of fruit pastels ten years ago
1:17:00
I couldn't be an accountant, James. But you could be a conservative councillor
1:17:06
so let's not compare eggs with rice. Well, and herein lies the problem
1:17:10
so surely there should be a higher state of accountability for somebody who
1:17:14
governs than a bloody bean counter, a naughty bean counter like myself. Or a
1:17:20
gob on a stick like me. I don't know. I mean, it's a bit like the fellow who couldn't get insurance for a vehicle after coming out of jail
1:17:27
because it indicates a proclivity or an increased likelihood of doing something wrong in the future
1:17:34
So you get struck off, would you, as an accountant? Yeah, I wouldn't be... I couldn't qualify
1:17:40
But he wasn't a politician... I think I disagree with you, but I'm wary of just arguing for the sake of it
1:17:46
So just let me... He wasn't a politician when he did this. If he'd been a councillor when he did these things
1:17:52
and he'd been drummed out of the party, then inviting him back in again would feel to me to be outrageous
1:17:58
But he was a private citizen when he did these things and he now repents and has been rehabilitated
1:18:04
So it's not comparable to you committing a crime in the commission of your accountancy duties
1:18:08
and expecting to be able to continue as an accountant, is it
1:18:12
I know though, James, if I committed the crime historically and declared it
1:18:17
I couldn't have letters after my name. Really? If you'd got anything on you, you couldn't become an accountant
1:18:22
If you have a criminal record, you can't become an accountant, James
1:18:26
No, I believe you. I'm just trying to apply that lesson to the candidacy of this guy
1:18:33
I mean, well, that's the rules of being an accountant. That's not the rules of being a conservative candidate
1:18:37
I mean, you don't have an offside rule in cricket. No, well, it's not, is it? It's not bonkers
1:18:41
It is a different criteria. What about the things Kemi Bader not said about the importance of second chances and rehabilitation
1:18:48
she's not wrong james she's not wrong but their words on paper mate it means in the broader context
1:18:56
of a chap who's who's done those things and then he's set to govern over the people that he
1:19:01
victimized he's going to be a counselor in somerset he's not going to have that much power
1:19:04
as well i mean any power at all if you've done those things like i said james my benchmark here
1:19:10
is i could not be an accountant if i'd stolen a packet of fruit bastles in 2015 let alone
1:19:17
victimise and racism. These are more heinous crimes, and he's governing, and I'm an accountant. This is
1:19:23
a joke, James. The absurdity, the level of asymmetric accountability here. That's a great phrase
1:19:29
That's a brilliant phrase. Can I play you Kemi Bedanoff's words? Go for it
1:19:33
And see if you change it. But seriously, though, try and do what I do. I'm going to do my
1:19:37
best, James. Try and do what I do, and be prepared to change your mind, alright? Because this
1:19:41
is her explanation for why a neo-Nazi with convictions, a former neo-Nazi
1:19:46
that's an important distinction activist with convictions including for the harassment of a
1:19:50
Jewish MP has been selected as a conservative candidate for a local election in Somerset
1:19:55
So I want to be very clear and I think people can look at me and know that I'm not a person who
1:20:00
would be recruiting neo-Nazis. Josh is someone who actually has been certified by the Home Office
1:20:07
to train police officers on anti-Semitism and on countering extremism. Yes he is somebody who had
1:20:15
been previously convicted, but he is someone who has shown contrition for his crimes, has been
1:20:20
rehabilitated and is spending every day working to solve the very problem which he knew he had
1:20:26
caused previously. He's going up and down the country, training people. And the Conservative
1:20:30
Party believes in second chances. This is not just someone that we've picked up who's a convicted
1:20:35
criminal. This is somebody who is actively working to help communities, especially Jewish communities
1:20:41
and this is what i want to see i want to see second chances for good people for people who've
1:20:46
learned their lessons for people who are showing that they know what they did was wrong what i
1:20:51
don't want to see is early release of people who have no contrition whatsoever who don't care and
1:20:57
who are going to be out on the streets actually harming people hmm go on then james i don't like
1:21:03
you mate i i stopped where where where kemi says you can look at me and see that i'm not going to point
1:21:11
How, Kemi? Are you alluding to the colour of your skin? Oh, I hadn't thought of that
1:21:15
You wouldn't make a mistake. I presume she probably is, actually, but I'm
1:21:19
so, I've swallowed so much of the Kemi Bader not Kool-Aid, I just thought she was referring to her
1:21:23
own obvious brilliance. No, I mean it. So you can look at me
1:21:27
and you can see one of the cleverest human beings that has ever walked the earth. Do you really think that
1:21:31
I would recruit a neo-Nazi? He's a former neo-Nazi, for God's sake, Cameron
1:21:35
He's not a neo-Nazi. James, as a black man of Jamaican heritage this this subject topic is far too dangerous for your very unique brand of playing
1:21:45
devil's advocate sir right i'm going to go away i'm going to go away with a pathetic point scored
1:21:50
against you after your brilliant contribution to the program there's no such thing as very unique
1:21:55
you cannot have gradations of uniqueness camera and something is either unique or it is not unique
1:22:01
but other than that other than that you're making well you're making a lot of sense and my friend
1:22:05
Chris, who I went to... Did you grow up in the Midlands? I did. We've had this conversation before
1:22:10
I thought we had. Snobs, Caspians. Good Lord. Or Birmingham nightclub, sorry
1:22:14
Well, my friend Christopher, who grew up in Stourbridge, is also an accountant, and he's just been in touch to say
1:22:19
Cameron is quite correct, we would absolutely be struck off. So you couldn be an accountant if you did what Joshua Bonehill has done but you could be a Conservative candidate You see I love what she says about rehabilitation I not even joking The first hour of the show today
1:22:36
was about reducing the population of the prison estate, and one way to do that would be to help people
1:22:41
who are leaving prison to pursue more productive and, crucially, legal lives
1:22:46
And that means recognising their rehabilitation, recognising their redemption. And yet, you heard Cameron
1:22:53
I mean, he makes a lot of sense as well. But should any of these sentences be life sentences
1:22:59
Yes, if you want to be an accountant. No, if you want to be a Conservative candidate. Alec is in Manchester, hopefully on a better line
1:23:05
Alec, what do you reckon? Hiya, sorry about that. Yeah, I reckon you've got to practice what you preach
1:23:10
And if you believe in rehabilitation, you believe in redemption, then you have to practice what you preach
1:23:17
And as simple as that, the only things I wouldn't put on that list
1:23:21
is, honestly, paedophiles and rapists. so thank you Andy for keeping them in prison
1:23:26
Well do you know you've done, oddly enough you've knitted together those two conversations
1:23:30
completely because I was drawn, and we didn't do it as a
1:23:34
phone-in Alec, I was drawn to the hierarchy of offending and the fact we are more offended
1:23:39
by some crimes than we are by others and we don't all agree on what that hierarchy
1:23:44
would look like but I think I probably agree with your ysis of who
1:23:47
should be at the very top of the list of people not getting early release. Daily Mail
1:23:51
appears to disagree, but who knows. And that would be it. So, I mean, just, for example
1:23:59
he couldn't be an accountant, but you've got no problem with him being a Conservative candidate
1:24:04
I disagree with that he shouldn't be an accountant. I know they're the rules, and I can disagree as all along
1:24:08
Can't be a teacher, I don't think, with a criminal record. I think that's wrong
1:24:12
I think that life experience is honestly important. This is a proper pendulum
1:24:17
so I can't have it both ways, can I? I can't sit there saying, in the last hour
1:24:21
where you obviously did something awful and you've obviously genuinely repented and been rehabilitated
1:24:25
therefore employers maybe don't even have a right to know about the crime that you committed in the past
1:24:30
but they certainly shouldn't be judging you on it or turning you down for car insurance. And then fast forward 60 minutes
1:24:35
and we're saying, well, no, I'm terribly sorry. The nature of your offence is such
1:24:40
that you shouldn't be allowed to be a conservative candidate. What if you put neo-Nazism on the same page
1:24:46
as the two offences you've just referred to? I wouldn't, because... So, I..
1:24:52
It's a belief, not an action, isn't it? Yeah, I think there's a special sickness
1:24:56
when it comes to those two crimes, and, like you say, it's a belief, and you can change your beliefs
1:25:00
And we all have a brain, and we can learn, and we're all stupid in our own ways
1:25:05
even the cleverest... There you go, there's an example. I just can't even say it
1:25:09
No, you're absolutely right, and there is no point having a mind if, indeed, you never change it
1:25:14
What about a... Do you have any children? Forgive me for this, it's a little bit of a gotcha. No, yeah, I have two little boys
1:25:19
There are only one, though, so I'm not, like, at school stage or anything. No, but if they went to school and you found out that their teacher used to be a neo-Nazi
1:25:25
would you be supremely comfortable with that? Well, you could also play it the other way
1:25:29
What if my child became a neo-Nazi, changed their mind and rehabilitated themselves
1:25:34
I would be okay with it. I would just, I would hope, honestly, that they were being watched
1:25:39
And, you know, just if anything was a bit like, oh, that was a funny thing to say, like, that would be reported
1:25:45
And they're going to be watching him more closely than they're going to be watching any other Conservative candidates
1:25:50
All right. I mean, I'm flying on every caller here. I knew this would happen. I'm agreeing with each caller, even as they're completely disagreeing with each other
1:25:57
Final question. What about poor old Grant Shapps? Well, so, OK. I disagree with Kimmy Stantz on this whole net zero thing
1:26:10
But, yeah, I don't know. Oh, God. There you go. I got you in the end
1:26:14
I get you all in the end, regardless of the fact that I don't know whether I'm coming or going on this subject
1:26:19
Grant Shapps not allowed to stand as a Conservative candidate. Former neo-Nazi activist with convictions including the harassment of a Jewish MP
1:26:26
Absolutely welcomed into the party by Cammie Badernaut. Dilly decision, but that's her decision to make
1:26:35
Yeah, no, fair enough. I wish someone, I wish whoever asked her about Joshua Bonehill-Payne had asked her about Grant Shapps as well
1:26:42
That would have just been fantastic. Presumably, he's all right. He's strong on net zero and the Human Rights Act
1:26:48
Not so strong historically on the Nazis and Jewish and Muslim people
1:26:53
but he's strong on net zero and the Human Rights Act, so there is room for him in Kemi Baden-Ock's party
1:27:00
It's coming up to quarter to 12. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I think, I mean, should I be embarrassed
1:27:05
that I don't have a particularly strong opinion? Or I'm surprised that I don't have
1:27:10
a particularly strong opinion about this. And the reason is caller versus caller
1:27:16
Something feels utterly wrong about the idea of you not being allowed to be a teacher or an accountant
1:27:21
if you've got any convictions whatsoever. But you can be a conservative candidate if you've got convictions allied with your past as a neo-Nazi activist
1:27:29
And at the same time, why do we go to... Well, you perhaps don't go to church, but why does anybody go to church
1:27:34
Why do we repent? Why do we rehabilitate? Why don't we just execute everybody who's committed a crime
1:27:40
Why do we recognise the importance of change and improvement? I don't know which way round it would go
1:27:46
but I think I agree with Kemi Bader not. It's quarter to 12. Feel free to tell me why I shouldn't
1:27:51
James O'Brien on LBC. 11.47. This isn't a phone-in. I'm just intrigued by the things that you do
1:28:00
If you're anywhere close to my age, if you're anywhere around my kind of age
1:28:06
the things that you do that you can't quite believe the man that you've become
1:28:11
or the woman that you've become. I don't want to be that bloke going on
1:28:15
about how much of a raver he used to be. But I am that bloke
1:28:19
I do often go on about how much I used to love clubbing and things like that. But I've got a book
1:28:23
I've just had a notification. I've had a book delivered. If I tell you what the book is about
1:28:31
Oh dear. I'm going to tell you what the book is about
1:28:35
but I thought I might give you an opportunity to guess. how can I put this
1:28:40
first of all I was amazed to discover that a book existed
1:28:44
second of all I discovered the existence of a book while reading a thriller
1:28:48
a crime thriller that I mentioned to you earlier this week third clue that the thrillers are set in Norfolk
1:28:56
and fourth clue it speaks to my fascination with what lies just beneath the surface
1:29:04
of the world we can see as in the past. It's not like ghostly or spiritual or anything like that
1:29:13
So, I mean, I think it might have the word ghost in it, actually
1:29:18
No, it doesn't. The thriller had the word ghost in it, but the book I've ordered does not
1:29:24
Guess what I've ordered a book about? Anyway, before we get back to
1:29:27
or indeed before I reveal that, I'm just going to compare a couple of Cammy Bader Not clips
1:29:32
because I struggle sometimes to convince you that I genuinely believe that she's absolutely wonderful. If you could just bottle whatever
1:29:40
it is that Camille Bader not has got. I reckon that you could be Pope and I could be the
1:29:45
England goalkeeper. I mean, there's so much we can do. So the first clip that I want you
1:29:50
to play is her talking today about the decision to have a candidate, a Conservative Council
1:29:56
candidate in Somerset, who is, and I still can't quite remember that. believe I'm reading this words, a former neo-Nazi activist with convictions including the harassment
1:30:04
of a Jewish MP. Here she is today. So I want to be very clear and I think people can look at me
1:30:10
and know that I'm not a person who would be recruiting neo-Nazis. Josh is someone who actually
1:30:16
has been certified by the Home Office to train police officers on anti-Semitism and on countering
1:30:24
extremism. Yes he is somebody who had been previously convicted but he is someone who has
1:30:29
shown contrition for his crimes, has been rehabilitated and is spending every day working
1:30:34
to solve the very problem which he knew he had caused previously. He's going up and down the
1:30:39
country training people. And the Conservative Party believes in second chances. This is not
1:30:44
just someone that we've picked up who's a convicted criminal. This is somebody who is
1:30:48
actively working to help communities, especially Jewish communities. And this is what I want to see
1:30:54
I want to see second chances for good people, for people who've learned their lessons
1:30:58
for people who are showing that they know what they did was wrong. What I don't want to see is early release of people
1:31:04
who have no contrition whatsoever, who don't care, and who are going to be out on the streets actually harming people
1:31:12
Here's the thing, right? Before I show you what a Wombat Kevin Badenock is
1:31:17
I've just realised something. I've kind of worked this out in the course of the hour, and you've probably worked it out for yourself already
1:31:23
If Joshua Bonehill-Payne rang this programme and described who he used to be and what he had done
1:31:31
and then described who he is now and the journey he has been on
1:31:36
then you know how big my ego is. So let me add, regardless of whether or not he credited
1:31:41
the conversations that we have with each other every day as being part of his healing process, part of his rehabilitation process
1:31:48
I would roll out the red carpet for him, wouldn't I? Come on, you've listened to the programme for long enough
1:31:54
you know what I'd do. Rangith James, I used to be an absolute, I used to be a Nazi
1:31:59
but I'm on the straight and narrow now and I'm working in the community
1:32:02
to train police officers about how to spot anti-Semitism or Islamophobia. And I'd say, good, what was
1:32:10
and you know what I'd do. I'd say, what do you think the tipping point was, mate
1:32:14
Or do you remember the moment when you realized how ugly the world you'd embraced actually was
1:32:22
I'd be absolutely fascinated by what he's done. And here's the thing, I would believe him, wouldn't I
1:32:29
You know I would. I'd believe him. And for good or for ill, I think it's good to be trusting
1:32:36
It means that sometimes you get let down, but it's better than going through life not trusting anybody
1:32:41
because then you can never make meaningful bonds or relationships. I would, wouldn't I
1:32:49
So I can't sit here, I don't think, and say he shouldn't be allowed to run as a Conservative candidate
1:32:53
Unfortunately for Kemi Badernault, she also very recently said this, and just wait for the very end of these comments
1:33:01
that she made in the House of Commons about a year ago
1:33:06
The question today is what has been on the lips of all Labour MPs
1:33:09
including, I believe, the Health Secretary yesterday. The Prime Minister knowingly appointed a convicted prodster
1:33:15
to be his Transport Secretary. What was he thinking? Mr Speaker, the previous Transport Secretary was right when further information came forward to resign
1:33:26
What a marked contrast to behaviour in the last 14 years. And she talks about immigration, record levels of immigration under the previous government
1:33:37
Nearly a million. And she was the cheerleader. She was the one urging on the removal of the caps for work visas
1:33:45
She was thanking the previous Home Secretary for the work that was done. She championed it
1:33:49
She advocated it. Record numbers of immigration. Mr Speaker, he's obfuscating, but I'm going to keep him on the topic
1:33:58
He owes the House an explanation. He said that the former Transport Secretary was only asked to resign
1:34:04
after further information came to light. What was that further information? I'm not going to disclose private conversations
1:34:14
Further information came to light that Justice Secretary resigned. As I say, what a marked contrast
1:34:19
Whilst she's obsessing with the Westminster issues, we're getting on with fixing the mess, fixing the foundations, that £22 billion black hole, our prisons bursting
1:34:32
And Mr Speaker, as we found out last week, nearly a million net migration numbers because of the Tory open borders policy
1:34:41
The country needs conviction politicians, not politicians with convictions. now on to an even bigger fraud
1:34:51
mr speaker i gently remind her that two of her predecessors had convictions
1:35:00
for break for breaking the covid rules so yeah we want politicians with conviction not convictions except for this candidate in
1:35:18
somerset who's a former neo-nazi i still think that i still think they should let him run you
1:35:23
know i just do i believe if you don't believe that people can change and you can make jokes
1:35:27
about well he hasn't changed that much he's still a tory but that is a joke you know that there is
1:35:31
no crossover between traditional conservatism or Kemi-Badenaut's conservatism and actual Nazism. So I just, I love that
1:35:39
I just had the thought, what if he rang in and described the journey that he has apparently been on
1:35:44
I would believe him. And if he ended it by saying, and now I want to run for council in Somerset
1:35:50
I'd think, blimey, you've come a long way, mate. And it wouldn't matter what party it was. Well, as long as it wasn't a far right party, obviously
1:35:57
Gary's in Croydon. Gary, what are you doing? Good morning, James. How are you doing? I think I'm all right
1:36:01
confused but I like it when I can't make my mind up. Go on, what have you got? Don't make me change
1:36:04
it again. I think you might. I'm a firm believer in rehabilitation. I would be a hypocrite if I
1:36:12
wasn't because 30 odd years ago I served time in prison for fraud. Having done that, I wouldn't
1:36:19
expect to be the chairman of the Bank of England because you wouldn't want fraudsters doing that
1:36:26
This gentleman concerned, whatever his political views were, he was basically, he committed a crime
1:36:33
and it was related to politics. We're now allowing him, or Kenny Badenhoff is allowing him
1:36:39
to go back into politics. Oh, it's going to go again. I hate this. No, you're saying it out loud, aren't you
1:36:45
Yeah. And there's always going to be an element of worry about
1:36:50
can this guy be groomed? Can this guy be persuaded to go back? is he really totally
1:36:55
is he totally converted? Are you? Are you totally? I mean, is there still a little bit
1:37:02
of fraudster nestling inside you? No. Well, there you go then. The main reason is
1:37:08
I'm successful. I'm now a successful businessman. There's no need for me to take
1:37:11
those kinds of risks. But I'll be completely honest, I know businessmen that are taking
1:37:16
risks like that similarly every day. Yes, of course. Is it about then
1:37:21
So we believe in rehabilitation but it doesn mean that you should be able to access every single corner of society that people who never been convicted of any crimes can access So there should be some bits that are off for you
1:37:35
Yeah, of course, because, you know, you wouldn't want a convicted burglar looking after a care home, would you
1:37:42
No, actually, no, don't chuckle like that, because I think I'm thinking about former gang members, for example
1:37:48
who work in the community with children and helping other people not go down the path that they went down
1:37:53
and former burglars can be... A former burglar, not like a resting burglar
1:37:57
Yeah, they can be rehabilitated and go into those areas, but I don't want to put them in a leadership position
1:38:02
because they may at some... You know, they've proved, they've proved that they can be perverted
1:38:09
to go down a certain way or follow a certain... Can't we all be
1:38:13
If the cards are dealt slightly differently. I mean, I don't know that I ever would have become a neo-Nazi
1:38:18
but if my dad was a neo-Nazi, I might have become a neo-Nazi. Well, yeah, because you've been persuaded by your father to do it
1:38:25
So, yeah, but then we wouldn't allow you to, you know, you'd end up being a criminal and we wouldn't allow you
1:38:31
I've repented. I've proved that I've repented. It doesn't matter how much you repent. The point is..
1:38:35
What's the point of repenting then, if it doesn't matter? It doesn't matter because it's what's in the back of the mind of the people
1:38:42
So no one can change. No one can make... No, they can change. They can change
1:38:47
They just have to understand that they can't enter the forum in which they committed a crime
1:38:52
because it's always going to be in the back of somebody's mind. Oh, I see
1:38:56
And the proof of that is you're having a radio programme about it
1:39:01
Yeah, what's that proof? So it's in the back. Let's see what it proves. It's in the back of people's mind
1:39:06
Hang on a minute. He's a convicted neo-Nazi. Maybe he'll go back. That's the reason your programme's working so well today
1:39:12
Well, I don't know. There's a couple of calls that we've taken this hour that might challenge your ysis of the programme
1:39:17
working so well this hour, but leaving that aside for the moment, or at least one, leaving that aside for the moment
1:39:22
that's not why it's working so well. It's working so well because it's the tension
1:39:27
between a belief in redemption and a belief... Well, it's because you're a lovely guy, James
1:39:30
Well, there's that as well, Gary, and obviously your charming contribution has nudged us up another notch as well
1:39:36
So, I mean, yeah, so it is just a list of things that certain convictions should exclude you from doing
1:39:42
So no one's saying that you can't drive a bus or run a business. The gentleman you spoke to earlier..
1:39:48
Cameron, right at the top of the hour, the accountant. I can't remember
1:39:51
The gentleman who said, no pedophiles, no rapists. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because you're moving them into positional power
1:39:59
where they could groom people again. And there's a suspicion amongst the people who are looking at them
1:40:05
And that's why he should not be allowed to re-enter the political forum
1:40:10
I'm back in the room. You're right. Do you know what I think has happened? And you've reminded me of this by commenting on what a lovely bloke I am
1:40:16
I sometimes I wasn't serious I know you weren't, nor am I
1:40:21
I sometimes think well, maybe I should try a little bit harder
1:40:26
to see things differently, because it's Cammy Bader and I just find her hilarious, and now she's
1:40:30
ended up with a neo-Nazi on her team a former neo-Nazi on her team, so let's try and see
1:40:34
the positives in it, and maybe argue that it's not as bonkers as it looks, but it is
1:40:38
actually just bonkers, you can't have a former neo-Nazi running for the cast
1:40:42
for God's sake, O'Brien, what's wrong with you? Can you, Gary? No, you can't
1:40:46
No, you can't. You can't because of the nature of his previous convictions
1:40:53
Yeah, so carry on doing the great work that you're doing in the community and working in the arena of anti-Semitism
1:40:58
and helping people to benefit from the errors of your ways, but you can't be a bloody counsellor
1:41:03
Get over yourself. James O'Brien on LBC. It is four minutes after 12
1:41:08
I just told the team about the book I've just bought. And it's not, like, weird or pervy
1:41:14
But the idea of 18-year-old me finding out what I've just bought off Oxfam
1:41:20
just, I mean, one colleague pointed out that I am the bloke who wants to do a phone-in about what's your favourite bus journey
1:41:27
So perhaps it's not that surprising to them. But the, um, I've bought a book called Ghost Fields of Norfolk
1:41:35
which is about the airfields that were used largely by the American Air Force
1:41:42
during the Second World War, and which you can still see the sort of vestiges of today
1:41:52
Sometimes you can see the old abandoned runways and stuff like that
1:41:56
There's one at Scullthorpe that has got a lot of the buildings are still there, but some of them have just become reintegrated into the local farmland
1:42:04
I could do a TV show about it. It's far too much like hard work. But someone, if they haven't done it already, should do a TV show about this
1:42:11
and I discovered I mean I've seen them in person but I didn't know there was a book
1:42:17
until I was reading a thriller like a crime thriller which is my current favourite by Ellie Griffiths
1:42:23
which I think is called The Ghost Fields I can't remember I've read about eight of them
1:42:27
on the trot since my holiday and she used a book for her research
1:42:32
and I read it in the acknowledgements and so I wrote off and ordered it
1:42:36
so 18 year old me is listening to this programme in some weird time-space vortex
1:42:43
That's who I am now, mate. That's who we are now. We're the kind of bloke who orders a book about ghost fields
1:42:49
ex-airfields, abandoned airfields, abandoned wartime airfields. You're the kind of bloke now, James
1:42:57
Used to be falling out of trade on a Sunday after. You now order books about abandoned wartime airfields in Norfolk
1:43:05
and you cannot wait to get home today to get your hands on it
1:43:11
How has that happened? What the heck has happened? Eh? Abandoned, yes, and I know it's pure Alan Partridge
1:43:18
except I, yeah, no, it's not even an accept but, is it? I mean, sometimes you say I'm like Alan Partridge
1:43:23
and I go, no, I'm deliberately trying to be, but not on this one
1:43:27
This is just, like, the nice bits of Partridge. His genuine enthusiasms
1:43:32
The ghost fields of Norfolk. Abandoned wartime airfields. a whole book. I don't know how many pages it's got
1:43:39
Probably not many, but it'll have loads of photos in it. And tomorrow I may not be
1:43:43
in work, because I will be engrossed by the ghost fields of Norfolk
1:43:49
I also added a £5 donation to Oxfam, because that's what I've become
1:43:53
as well. I've become like Howard and Hilda in ever-decreasing circles. If Mrs O'Brien ever buys matching anoraks
1:43:59
that's it. It'll all be over. Speaking of classic sitcoms, this looks good, doesn't it
1:44:05
the Joe Wilkinson and David Earl show that's on TV tonight. I love Joe Wilkinson and David Earl
1:44:10
They do a podcast called Chatterbicks. I just had the great pleasure of being on, but it was during lockdown
1:44:14
I hated doing stuff on Zoom, but I love doing that with them because they're so amazing
1:44:18
But they've got a show on tonight, I think, looking back at the classic British sitcoms
1:44:23
That's got me written all over it. So what I'll be doing tonight, I'll be sitting on the sofa
1:44:27
with the ghost fields of Norfolk open on my lap, watching two men of a similar age to me
1:44:32
revisit the classic sitcoms of the 1970s and 80s, and I will be in seventh heaven
1:44:40
And one of them, Eleanor has correctly spotted, was indeed Porridge, which is why it was in my mind at the top of the show today
1:44:47
when we started talking about prisons. Luckily Joe and David will be discussing Porridge as a sitcom as a comedy not as Dick Littlejohn will no doubt do in a forthcoming Daily Mail column discuss it as social documentary which shows how good what was it was it Heidi High he was watching when he said I was watching
1:45:09
no, it was The Bill, he was watching The Bill, and he actually wrote a column about how, oh god, everything was better then
1:45:15
I was watching some 20 year old copies of the, Living the Dream, watching some 20 year old copies of The Bill and reflecting upon, um
1:45:22
how much things have changed. I've got, yeah, I am going to talk about change next
1:45:30
And it's a conversation prompted partly by something in the news and partly by some conversations that I've been having in real
1:45:36
not in real life, this is real life, but outside the studio. And it's about the children who are falling
1:45:44
If your children are on social media before they are, by the time they're 11, this is extraordinary
1:45:50
and it no doubt needs deeper digging. But it's the explanation that I find fascinating
1:45:57
If your children are using social media at the age of 11, they could end up, by the time they sit their GCSEs
1:46:04
up to six months behind their peers or six months behind where they would otherwise have been
1:46:12
TikTok, Instagram and others at the age of 11, so, you know, everyone says you can't have a phone
1:46:17
until you start secondary school. so they get their phone when they start secondary school at the age of 11
1:46:22
By the time they're 15 or 16, in certain subjects, they will be six months behind where they would otherwise be expected to be
1:46:32
The researchers claim that this provides compelling evidence that early engagement with social media adversely affects learning outcomes
1:46:40
And I believe all that. It's research conducted at the University of Milano-Bicocca
1:46:46
ysed the social media habits of 5,227 Italian students and then collected their test scores for Italian, English and maths
1:46:58
And it's been published in Nature Human Behaviour, a journal. A significant negative impact of early social media
1:47:05
That's not what we're going to be talking about because what I was reading was the reasons that were given
1:47:11
And the reasons that are given, basically, it's frequent phone checking. lack of parental supervision and excessive social media use
1:47:20
But the thing there, I think, that really matters is the frequent phone checking
1:47:27
And I tell you something else I've been thinking about a lot lately. We're talking about the kids too much
1:47:33
We're all sitting here having worthy conversations and stroking our beards. My apologies if you haven't got a beard
1:47:38
Stroking our chins. Oh, isn't it terrible? How much time the children are spending on social media
1:47:46
oh, we need a ban, I hope Andy Burnham brings in a ban
1:47:49
to stop the children being on social media. I don't know if the lad we were talking about in the last hour
1:47:56
would have ended up being a neo-Nazi in the world before social media, but there's a hell of a lot of neo-Nazis out there
1:48:01
who would not be neo-Nazis if it wasn't for social media. And spoiler alert, they're not children
1:48:06
I mean, they were once, I imagine. But the conversation has been almost exclusively confined
1:48:15
to the problems that children end up with as a consequence of being on social media too much
1:48:24
No, smartphones. Because that line there is not about the social media
1:48:29
The headline writers are going to go for the social media. It's about the constant checking of the phone
1:48:34
That, to me, is the phenomenon that we don't discuss enough. It's not about what you find when you check it
1:48:40
that is the purpose of today's conversation. it's about the fact you have to check it
1:48:46
Now, have a think about the last time you watched a film at home
1:48:50
without checking your phone. Right? Last time you read a book without checking your phone
1:48:56
And it doesn't matter whether you're checking social media or the news
1:49:01
My dad was addicted to the news. It was his job to be addicted to the news
1:49:05
He had to watch the news. Whatever else was on the telly, if we were sitting there watching Ghostbusters
1:49:09
he had to come in and put the news on. We were in the car, We never listen to music in the car
1:49:14
We just listen to the blooming news all the blooming time. It's a miracle I didn't become a music DJ, frankly
1:49:20
But here I am talking about the news. Well, not actually the news, technically speaking, but you take my point
1:49:26
You had to know that constant checking. And now you've got this thing in your pocket, this thing in your hand
1:49:31
I play a lot of word games on my phone. In fact, I'm just going to check to see if anyone has gone yet
1:49:38
So I'm playing a lovely game now on the New York Times website called Crossplay
1:49:42
And it's very like Scrabble, but not quite. And you can play with complete strangers
1:49:47
Something like, again, it's up there with the ghost fields of Norfolk. I can't believe I'm playing games with strangers on my phone
1:49:53
I hate strangers. I'm flipping heck. But I'm checking that all the time
1:49:57
It'll buzz at night. I'll get it. So I've weaned myself off Twitter
1:50:01
I'm never really on Facebook. I don't spend more than half an hour, I don't think, in total
1:50:07
maybe maximum an hour a day on Blue Skit. No, half an hour maximum, unless I'm trying to bring an article
1:50:12
a brilliant article I've written to your attention, which I will be doing later today if you don't follow me on Blue Sky
1:50:17
My handle is at MrJamesOB. Completely and successfully weaned myself off Twitter
1:50:21
Not suffering from an awful lot of the... I'm not allowed to write about the ghost fields of Norfolk
1:50:27
Maybe next week. This week, I imagine I'll be writing about Farage's ludicrous speech yesterday
1:50:33
about immigration and the hilarious whereabouts of the boat that he featured, or the ship that he featured
1:50:40
on the front of his Photoshop document. Anyway, I digress. It's not about what you're doing when you check your phone
1:50:51
Because word games are healthy, right? It's like doing a Sudoku, except with words. So no one's going to go, oh, I'm doing too many Sudoku
1:50:57
It is. And this isn't about the children. This is about you
1:51:03
This is about you. You are checking your phone too often. You just are
1:51:10
I am checking my phone too often. I even check it when I'm on air, which is ridiculous
1:51:17
Well, sometimes I'm getting messages of mates or family members who are listening to that
1:51:23
I don't know why. You'd think they'd get enough of me off their time, wouldn't you
1:51:26
I said, what are you going to do? I'm just going to go and listen to Jay. But you had dinner with him last night
1:51:30
Yeah, I know, but he's talking about... Anyway, there you go. That's my life for you
1:51:34
Um, I check my phone when I'm on it. In fact, I'll just check it now, because this is a conversation that we were having a bit on..
1:51:39
Oh, here you go, yeah. One of them said, he's doing my topic, lads! And I am, because a mate of mine on WhatsApp, which I check
1:51:47
was talking about how he knows he's got to give up his phone. He knows he's got to give up his phone
1:51:53
And he can't. They'd had a little period, him and the kids, and his good lady wife
1:51:58
I don't know why I've turned into a 1950s character. It's a good lady, why
1:52:03
Put the phones in the drawer for a bit and then they just creep back out again. We just do it too much
1:52:07
That's what they're designed for. And this isn't about the evils of the algorithms. This isn't about the corrupting nature
1:52:15
of some of the stuff that's on there. Even if you're looking at relatively wholesome stuff
1:52:19
like banter with your friends and word games, it's too much. We doing it too much And it changed something about our relationship with other things It changed something about our attention spans and all we do is talk about the
1:52:37
kids which is absolutely ridiculous because how long has it been part of your life now
1:52:45
How long has it been part? You think it's not affecting you? Oh it's terrible what it's doing
1:52:49
to the children, a younger generation. Oh, I don't know. Oh, what about you, man
1:52:56
What about you? On holiday, take it with you to the beach
1:53:03
don't you? You do? Checking it, checking it on the beach. Look at the view, look at the view
1:53:07
No, I'm checking my phone. It's all right, I'm not looking at weird stuff
1:53:11
I'm just playing a game. What game? Scrabble. On holiday, on a sunbed
1:53:17
reading a book. I just checked my phone. I'm getting a bit and you feel this thing right it's not just me you're reading a book in a way that ten years ago
1:53:24
You could have done a hundred pages in one sitting particularly on holiday, but you're on the beach
1:53:28
You've got your book. You've got your phone. You're doing what ten pages check the phone ten pages check the phone ten pages
1:53:34
Check the phone. It's not the end of the world It's not good though. Is it it's not good
1:53:39
And it's not just the kids it's us as well. So what are we losing
1:53:43
confusing when's the last time you were really really bored i mean really bored answer you
1:53:52
weren't you haven't been bored for years not really but and don't i'll do the joke all right
1:53:58
oh it's when i lost my phone james and i was listening to you i mean really bored really
1:54:03
really bored i mean church maybe i'm trying to think of somewhere you have to sit and you can't
1:54:10
check your phone. I mean, maybe you were unlucky enough to be watching a really bad play or
1:54:14
something like that. But when we were younger, we would be bored, not all the time, but a
1:54:20
lot of the time. We would just be bored. There's nothing to watch on the telly. I haven't
1:54:26
got a good book on the go. I'm not in the mood for, I've got nothing to do. I'm just
1:54:29
bored. I'm just bored. Do you remember the summer holiday, the beginning of the summer
1:54:33
holiday, six, eight weeks spreading out in front of you? And you'd feel this magnificent
1:54:38
sense of wonder. Two weeks in, week and a half, what the
1:54:42
blood, what am I going to do all day? I'm so bored
1:54:47
I'm so bored. When's the last time you listened to me? Without checking your phone
1:54:52
Maybe a call, every now and then there's a call, again, the greatest compliments you
1:54:56
get are the ones that say, I'm parked in the supermarket car park and I can't get out of the car
1:55:00
because I'm listening to this call. Or monologue, but mostly call. I'm listening to this call, I can't
1:55:06
get out of the car. When's the last time you did that. When's the last time you listened to an hour of LBC without checking your phone
1:55:14
You haven't done it. You haven't done it. So, some people have, right? Some people have
1:55:23
actually recognized, not many, I don't think, not many people, but some have recognized that
1:55:30
this is ridiculous. This level of dedication or devotion is ridiculous. Even if, and this
1:55:38
is the whole point of today's conversation. Even if what you're doing is not
1:55:41
in and of itself negative. So it's not about looking at filth
1:55:46
It's not about absorbing hatred. It's not about becoming a neo-Nazi by dint
1:55:51
of being on Twitter for 25 seconds. It's not about having your
1:55:55
racism in. So it's not about any of that. For the purposes of this argument, you are not
1:56:02
doing bad things when you get your phone out. But you are getting your phone out so often that it is obviously having a negative impact on other areas of your life
1:56:14
And if it was the kids we were talking about, we'd be talking about how they're ending up six months behind where they should be
1:56:22
academically speaking, over the period that elapses between the ages of 11 and 16
1:56:27
because of what this thing is doing to our brain. This thing is doing to our brain
1:56:35
six months. You can sit there and say, well, I don't think it's having any negative effect at all
1:56:39
It is. It just is. Because if it's knocking six months off the learning curve of a youngster
1:56:45
what's it doing to you? It's doing something to you. Which way round
1:56:53
do we do this? I mean, most obviously, give me a call if you've
1:56:57
knocked it on the head, and tell me about the difference that it's made
1:57:01
And I don't want to talk about children today, I'm only talking about adults. How many
1:57:07
parents have been wringing their hands about the dangers of social media
1:57:11
and the dangers of smartphones posed to young people without recognising that they are absolutely
1:57:17
in it themselves, up to their ears in it themselves, and beyond. What, what, what
1:57:25
Actually, yeah, you can do that as well. What have we lost? What has it damaged
1:57:30
If you'd said to me 30 years ago, in the future you will never be bored
1:57:35
Do you know what I would have said? I'd have said, wow, really? That's great. Sign me up. I hate being bored
1:57:40
Being bored is rubbish. In the future you will never be bored. But we've lost something by dint of never
1:57:46
What have we lost? What's going on here? What have we lost? What's been broken
1:57:52
What's been damaged? For the grown-ups. Not because of what we look at on our phones
1:57:57
but because of how often we look at our phones. 0-345-60-60-973 is the number that you need
1:58:05
And no, Anthony, I'm not asking people who haven't got a phone to call me
1:58:09
I'm asking people who have successfully weaned themselves off a smartphone addiction
1:58:14
because you might have one of those old bricks. They're becoming increasingly popular. And you can see why, can't you
1:58:19
I mean, to be fair, I could spend about 14 hours straight playing Snake on my Nokia back in the day
1:58:24
so I'm not sure I'm a very good case study. But you wouldn't have to check it every 10
1:58:29
8, 12 minutes? What's it done to us, do you think? 0345 6060 973
1:58:37
What have we lost? And what happened when you tried? Because of course it might have failed
1:58:43
and that will be, if anything, even more interesting than the people who've succeeded. What happened when you tried to beat your addiction
1:58:51
Because you are addicted. And so am I. It's 12.21. James O'Brien on LBC
1:58:59
It is 12.23. What are we losing? And what happens when you recognise the dangers of addiction
1:59:06
and try to do something about it? And we're talking about phones, and we're not talking
1:59:10
if you're just tuning in, about the dangers of the things that you see on your phone
1:59:14
It could be entirely wholesome or innocuousness that you're accessing, but you're accessing it so much that it's broken something
1:59:22
So I was reading an article about children, and although the newspapers have all chosen to put social media in their headline
1:59:28
the first line of the academic research says, constant checking of the phone
1:59:33
Constant checking of the phone. Ebru is in Winchmore Hill. Ebru, what made you pick up the phone
1:59:40
Oh, thank you for taking my call, James. The moment I heard you speaking about this
1:59:45
I thought I have to call in. It's such a sensitive subject
1:59:49
and this is a crisis I'm seeing in... well, it's a big crisis in my life
1:59:55
but everyone I'm speaking to, including my parents who are in their 80s
1:59:59
who have the latest phones. Yeah. I'm seeing this issue everywhere, and a lot of people that I speak to, they're aware of it
2:00:10
Well, I didn't realise, Eleanor, the producer, had the same conversation on Saturday night that I had this morning with three of my pals
2:00:16
about how we kind of know we have to do this. We kind of know that we have to stop it
2:00:20
because it's ridiculous, and none of us have. And you're right, our parents
2:00:25
you know, people who are 20, 30 years older than us, are absolutely glued to them all the time as well
2:00:30
Everybody is. If it was a science fiction film, they'd think that they'd put something in the water
2:00:36
to make us addicted to these devices as opposed to the things that are in the devices
2:00:40
What are we losing? I mean, just connection, family connection. You know, I mean, we lose out on just quality time
2:00:52
being present, whether it's with your partner, whether it's with your family, your parents
2:00:56
It's almost any opportunity you get, it's sort of you escape to binge
2:01:03
It's a binge, really, because you can't help it. One of the things I found was, I mean, I deleted Instagram off of my phone
2:01:13
I deleted the app off my phone. Right. And so because it takes a lot more time to download the application, I just don't bother
2:01:20
So that has helped significantly. But now it's YouTube or just the news
2:01:26
And what happens if, I mean, you don't notice, do you? You just, it's an itch and you have to scratch it
2:01:32
Yeah, you do. It's horrible. I'm aware I'm doing it. I'm fully aware I'm doing it
2:01:38
So, you know, my partner would come in, he'll take care of the kid and I haven't sort of been on my phone
2:01:43
I try not to be on my phone next to my daughter unless I'm cooking
2:01:48
But it's like, why do I need to have something on when I'm cooking? Yeah
2:01:53
You know, any opportunity, I have to have it on. And how do we know..
2:01:58
I just have to be watching something alongside whatever it is I'm doing. Yeah, yeah. I mean, unthinkable 20 years ago
2:02:03
But how do we know this is bad? That's not a facetious question
2:02:08
Or rhetorical, actually. How do we know this is a bad thing? As I said, if you'd said to me when I was a kid
2:02:12
when you grow up, you'll never be bored, I'd have thought that sounded brilliant. How do we know what we're describing is a bad thing
2:02:19
It sort of feels involuntary when you're doing it. Ooh. I feel like I'm doing something
2:02:27
I'm almost automated when I'm doing it I'm just doing it It's not that
2:02:34
you know there's just a drive it's a habit really it's just a really really bad habit
2:02:41
to constantly check and you get nothing out of it it's like constantly eating popcorn or something
2:02:47
you're not going to get any nourishment whatsoever but you can't stop eating it
2:02:51
well, you don't get any nourishment, any good nourishment, but, I mean, it is designed to keep you on there
2:02:58
The algorithm is designed to constantly... No, we're not talking about algorithms. No, because for me..
2:03:04
It's so hard not to. No, but without being holier-than-thou about it all, I'm playing word games, and I check the news
2:03:10
So those aren't algorithms. They're not sending me a feed of things. Even when, you know, the news starts changing
2:03:17
according to what my preferences are, I delete it, clear it, and just watch whatever it is that's coming up first on the BBC, the LBC, the New York Times
2:03:27
the I, the Financial Times, whatever they've decided the order of stories should be
2:03:31
that's the order in which I will read my stories. I won't let an algorithm decide what I am and I'm not more interested in
2:03:36
So it's not the algorithms for me, but I still check my phone way too often
2:03:41
Way too often, even when I'm doing other things that I'm enjoying. It's a compulsion, isn't it? It's a compulsion. It's an obsession and a compulsion
2:03:48
yeah you know of it absolutely but i i know you're ignoring the algorithm
2:03:54
no i'm not ignoring it i'm not ignoring you no no i'm not hearing you out i'm absolutely there's
2:03:59
no point me laying down these rules if people are just going to ride roughshod over them you see back in the day when we were capable of concentration you wouldn't have been distracted
2:04:06
by the thoughts of the algorithm or indeed have insisted no we've had a million conversations
2:04:10
about the algorithm i'm being i'm being a bit a bit unfair but we're not having another one today
2:04:14
because it's about the checking. The algorithm is part of this conversation
2:04:20
and simultaneously a different conversation, but it's not this conversation. This is about the checking
2:04:26
And what happens if you can stop doing it? Amy's in Hayes. Amy, what made you pick up the phone
2:04:31
Hi, James. Hello. Yeah, so I'm just enjoying this topic, basically, because I'm completely opposite of checking my phone all the time
2:04:46
I basically, I have two children, so that's my priority all the time
2:04:53
just making sure that, you know, I answer their calls. But everything else is just all secondary and it's all temporary
2:05:00
Was it always like that? Yeah, I think, well, not always. I think I was before addicted to my phone, you know, when it all first kicked off, you know, social media, Instagram, Facebook, etc., etc
2:05:16
But over time, I think for the past three, four years now, I think I've actually just, I've just become more present and just enjoying life a bit more without having the phone around
2:05:29
Why did you decide to do it? Why did you decide to change? um because it was getting a bit too much you know i'm always like on my phone oh what's on instagram
2:05:39
who's doing what who's getting married who's getting engaged well that's quite important i
2:05:43
don't know what your friendships are like but um it's usually quite good to find out you don't want
2:05:50
to miss a wedding amy it's um anyway you've taken me right up to the news so i'm very grateful to
2:05:54
that it is half past 12 you are listening to james o'brien on lbc and um i presume amelia cox
2:06:02
has got your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC. 32 is the time
2:06:09
It's about what you lose, isn't it? Although on a completely different subject
2:06:13
If you're listening in the last hour and you have been crazy enough
2:06:18
to listen to this programme for a number of years, then you'll appreciate this from Stuart
2:06:23
He said, crikey, you've come a long way from not wanting nurses to have tattoos
2:06:28
to thinking that neo-Nazis should be able to run councils. Yeah, all right, you have to listen to the last hour
2:06:34
to understand exactly what it is that Stuart's talking about. You may even have to read my second book
2:06:38
How Not To Be Wrong, to understand a bit about the nurses and the tattoos
2:06:43
The ability, suggests Andy, to be 100% present within our surroundings. The ability almost to be part of our surroundings
2:06:52
Lauren says, Boredom is the psychological counterweight to enjoyment. It is necessary for a healthy psyche to become motivated by boredom
2:07:00
If nothing is boring, then nothing is interesting. Is that right? John says, I'm on holiday in a remote part of Canada
2:07:08
I have no signal normally and I read like crazy. This year I've got Starlink
2:07:14
So it's both great and awful because I've barely read a chapter this holiday
2:07:20
I'm listening to your show in bed at the moment with my eyes closed. Well, I bet you just sat up, John, didn't you
2:07:25
And this is from Jazz We were out for dinner on Sunday evening my brother and I both praised our friend two daughters 16 and 19 as they were both fully engaged in the conversation with us
2:07:37
and neither of them looked at their phone throughout the whole evening
2:07:42
It felt strange to tell them that we felt proud of them
2:07:46
for doing something so obviously basic. This is really powerful, actually. A lot of people will recognise this
2:07:55
But we see so many other adults and youngsters on their phones rather than socialising with the people that they're with
2:08:00
This is the thing about age, isn't it? And finally, Elisa writes
2:08:05
it's bad for you because it stops you from doing other fundamentally human things
2:08:09
We are losing the habit of deep thinking, of harder problem solving
2:08:13
of enjoying real things, of searching for knowledge. We think it's all there at our fingertips
2:08:18
but that's an illusion. So we don't even realise what we are missing
2:08:22
I think that's my favourite text at the moment. we're pretty good don't get me wrong i mean this is where we do get a little bit holier than now so
2:08:30
um we don't have our phones at the dinner table and we try if everyone's at home to eat together
2:08:36
as often as possible my wife and i are eating alone or if we're out for dinner we'll check our
2:08:40
phones probably too much but we won't do anything on them do you see what i mean you're not going to
2:08:45
start sitting there reading but and i don't want to be judgmental because there'll be people who
2:08:50
are having the time of their lives so both reading two different things on their phones i might
2:08:54
read a book at dinner when we're on holiday. But actually, no, I don't really do that
2:09:01
But I'm not going to sit there in company, choosing the company of my phone
2:09:06
but I will check it. I will check it too much. I will check it too much
2:09:11
And I'm losing something as a consequence. And in fact, it's that message from John in Canada
2:09:15
that nails it most. If I haven't got a signal on holiday
2:09:19
I'll read a book. If I have got a signal, I will barely read a chapter
2:09:24
That sums it up, right? That absolutely sums it up. And I haven't yet, or we haven't yet
2:09:31
articulated exactly what it is that we're losing. But I want you to try
2:09:35
And I also want you to try, if you've done this, because I think probably more and more of us are going to in the coming year
2:09:42
It's not quite a mystic, Jim, that. But let's wait and see. What happens
2:09:46
What do you notice most when you actually succeed in stopping, either by getting a phone that doesn't have the technological capabilities
2:09:55
like a phone that is literally just a phone, or via some other methods that you've worked out for yourself
2:10:01
What do you gain? What changes? It's 12.36. Joanna is in Maida Vale
2:10:05
Joanna, what would you like to say? I think the biggest change that if you were able to put the phone down
2:10:11
and not necessarily need to have that stimulus all the time is you're not getting this huge cortisol rush
2:10:16
if you're stressed about what's happening on your phone and you don't know. I would be walking my dog
2:10:22
and every less than five minutes it's too generous I'd put my hands in my pocket
2:10:27
pull my phone out look at it there's nothing there I'd put it back in my pocket I'm like what am I doing
2:10:31
So about three years ago I turned everything off What made you
2:10:36
Just the simple recognition of how silly your behaviour was How silly
2:10:41
But also there's something really dangerous to our hormones in terms of the dopamine kick
2:10:46
that we're getting and then the cortisol if we're stressed about not seeing what's on the phone
2:10:50
And being out with friends, if everyone is in a conversation and someone picks up their phone
2:10:55
it instantly drops the connection. So you feel like there's a detachment there
2:11:00
And in turning everything off my phone, notifications, sound, vibrate, nothing. I will only know if my phone is ringing if I see it
2:11:08
Otherwise it's in my pocket or it's somewhere else. I turn it off at 10 p.m. every night
2:11:13
And the funniest thing is I'm a physiotherapist and my patients i went to see a patient last year in hospital and she said oh you could never get joe
2:11:22
to be here in case of emergency contact because she never answers her phone and so for me it's
2:11:26
great because now i've trained people don't expect to hear from me immediately don't expect an
2:11:30
immediate reply don't expect me to pick my phone up and i don't have the pressure how long did it
2:11:35
take from because you went cold turkey i mean how many times did you how long did it take for it to
2:11:42
become the new normal, as it were. Oh, it would be unfair if I said
2:11:46
less than three months. It's not an easy thing to do, but now
2:11:49
I love it. I could leave my phone at home for hours and be out
2:11:53
I could leave my phone in a different room for hours and not bother
2:11:57
checking it. And everybody knows that you're... Everybody. You're in danger of sounding like
2:12:05
a vegan. Do you know what I mean? Let me explain that. It probably needs a bit of context
2:12:12
No, I understand. Because one of the people who everybody listening knows is right
2:12:16
and yet we feel a bit ashamed of the fact that we're not more like you, so we're going to start accusing you of being smug
2:12:23
You're not sounding smug at all. You're sounding brilliant and clear and very persuasive
2:12:27
almost evangelical. And you're not preaching. You're not telling everybody else that they're making mistakes
2:12:32
And maybe it's just me who responds like this to people who are clearly doing better than I'm doing
2:12:38
It's like you're describing things that we should obviously be doing. And yet we can't
2:12:44
Well, my father, when I was a teenager, he had a mobile phone, you know, the old Nokia brick, and he would check his phone
2:12:49
Then he'd put it back down and walk out the back door and get in the car. And I said, Dad, what are you doing
2:12:53
It's a mobile phone. He goes, why do I need to be connected to everyone? I said, why have a mobile phone
2:12:58
And he's still the same. He has a smartphone. He's 75, but he won't necessarily check it all the time
2:13:03
So maybe I was fortunate enough to have that as my model
2:13:08
Yeah. I mean, although you went the other way to start with. And no doubt, I mean, downsides
2:13:13
because, you know, things I would think of. What if there's an emergency? What if somebody really needs to get hold of you
2:13:19
What if, what if, what if? Okay, but remember the times when we didn't have mobile phones
2:13:23
and we just had war phones? Yeah, no, you're pushing your luck now, I think. I mean, obviously I do remember those times
2:13:29
but I don't know that anybody wants to return to, he says out loud and then thinks immediately
2:13:34
maybe we would want to return to them. But if there's an emergency, I will find out
2:13:40
Yeah, of course you will, maybe just a bit later than you would otherwise. And then we just go from there
2:13:49
I think that the danger is that people's minds are starting to change
2:13:54
The hormones in people's minds are starting to change because of this constant, immediate gratification
2:14:00
seeing something on the phone, then you go to the next thing, then you go to the next thing, then you go to the next thing
2:14:04
And people just, it is a very, very dangerous addiction that so many adults have
2:14:09
And yes, children have got the social media stuff, but adults have this, exactly what you were saying, inability to be bored
2:14:15
Inability to be bored. And that, yeah, I mean, you're brilliant. That's absolutely perfectly expressed
2:14:20
and speaks directly to that sense of knowing that this is really rotten
2:14:24
this is really bad. And yet it's so baked into our behaviour now
2:14:29
that we almost can't recognise how bad it is. Just have a little look around next time you're in company
2:14:34
next time you're in a room with lots and lots of people in it. how many people are just sitting at a table looking at their phones when they are with
2:14:42
the people that they care most about in the world. This is very moving or very poignant
2:14:46
from Leslie. I'm losing my wife and my daughter, not literally, but my relationships with them
2:14:52
They angry with me because I can hold a conversation or be present at anything I 49 years old and my daughter chides me when we have conversations about her day and then I check my phone I know it wrong but I can stop and that what
2:15:05
Joanna just described. You're having a conversation and the person checks their phone and it breaks
2:15:09
the connection somehow. I'm bad at that by the way in case anyone thinks I'm sounding even smugger
2:15:14
than usual. I find that hard. Once the thought is in my head I wonder if a story's dropped
2:15:19
My excuse? Well I've got a phone in show to present tomorrow and I need to know the news
2:15:23
but I don't need to know it now. I can check it when I'm quiet. I can check it when I'm, I don't know, in the bathroom
2:15:29
I can check it when I'm not in the middle of a conversation with somebody else. If a massive story breaks at four o'clock in the afternoon
2:15:35
they're not going to phone me up and say, can you come in and take over from Tom
2:15:39
I mean, I don't need to know that story until ten o'clock tomorrow morning. But I don't know
2:15:44
So that's a rubbish excuse. That's a lie you tell yourself to justify the thing you're doing
2:15:47
that you know isn't healthy. From Joanna to Susanna in Kensington. Susanna, what would you like to say
2:15:53
James, it's just lovely when I hear you saying what I've been saying all along
2:15:57
The inability to be bored. When James O'Brien is like, James O'Brien is saying this
2:16:03
Yeah, it's just, but I think that ability to stop and feel
2:16:09
really feel what you're feeling in the moment is what people have lost. Following on from the psychotherapist you've just been talking to
2:16:17
you're in an alternative health world at the moment because I'm an Alexander technique teacher
2:16:22
and we teach people to stop and be more mindful, to be more present, to observe their breathing
2:16:29
Lots of other people are saying that, you know, meditation, yoga, everyone wants us to stop
2:16:33
and be more mindful of our breathing. But people don't want to be anymore
2:16:38
I've started doing it. I can't remember whether I've shared this yet, but I've been doing yoga for about four months
2:16:43
But I've been doing quite yin yoga, not like very exerting and stuff like that
2:16:48
just holding the same pose for quite a long time and then doing breath work and sound baths at the end
2:16:53
And I'd leave my phone in the car. I don't even, I'm not even tempted
2:16:59
I take my watch off as well, actually, when I'm in there because it's so beautiful to get into
2:17:04
And I need so much help doing it. I've got to pay someone to be my yoga teacher. I go to classes
2:17:09
I haven't stretched yet to a one-on-one. But that's the point. I couldn't do it on my own
2:17:13
I can't find that mindfulness, we call it. I can't find that kind of mindfulness alone
2:17:19
Mindfulness movement is, sorry to interrupt, is Alexander Technique. Some people, there are people in New York who think it should be rebranded
2:17:26
I don't, but Alexander Technique has been around for 100 years, way before mobile phones came along
2:17:32
And I've been, I'm 57, a boarding school survivor, by the way. Hyper Vigilance got set up for me at boarding school
2:17:38
So I escaped into, yeah, that was, you know, 1968 to 1975
2:17:44
And I escaped into overthinking everything, etc. Alexander Technique came along in my mid-twenties
2:17:53
Now I'm going to teach for 20 years. But it's clear that people are just not used to being able to stop
2:18:01
but they relish having to put their mobile phone away. Yeah, and you feel something
2:18:06
You probably couldn't put into words what it is that's so special about it, but a large part of it is not having your flipping phone with you
2:18:11
What did you ever fall into it, though? Were you ever constantly checking your phone
2:18:17
Or you still are? I can't tell you that I'm totally cured. No, I'm still there
2:18:22
Because I am on Instagram. As I'm a technical teacher, I need to be on Instagram
2:18:26
But if I go onto Instagram to make a post, of course, they know every 80s film that I loved
2:18:33
They know everything about my body, apparently. They know what I'm looking for in the internet
2:18:38
No, yeah, I have to. And if I'm feeling low, of course it's easier to escape than to stop
2:18:48
and observe your feeling, your breathing, and feel what you're feeling. But if I can't do that, then how can I teach anybody else to
2:18:54
I like that. And I'd also like your evangelizing for the Alexander Technique
2:18:59
Anything that just creates space in your own head for you to be you. You know, that's another thing
2:19:05
I mean, who are you? If you're just constantly engaged with something, where does that end in you start
2:19:10
And there's some very poignant messages coming in. Another one here. My wife is the same
2:19:15
She's on her phone from the moment I get home to the moment I go to sleep. I don't think she's doing anything bad
2:19:20
She reads books like crazy and spends time doing her family tree online. But she doesn't hear me when I speak
2:19:26
God, that's a song lyric, isn't it? She doesn't hear me when I speak
2:19:31
And it's happened for so long that I've now almost stopped talking unless it's very important
2:19:36
because I don't want to repeat everything three times. Starts with the dad jokes
2:19:40
and then you realise that it's everything. It's very depressing, but she just doesn't think that she has an addiction
2:19:45
because, like me, you see, she is doing wholesome things. She's doing genealogy and books and things
2:19:53
but you're there, having a relationship with the screen rather than with the person
2:19:57
12.46 is the time. James O'Brien on LBC. 49 is the time you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
2:20:06
where we turn our attention next to a subject that is, as you know, very close to my heart, although it is a subject which
2:20:12
as you may also know because i do tend to talk about it quite a lot has changed almost beyond
2:20:17
recognition in the course of my 54 years on this earth and i mentioned those 54 years
2:20:22
on this earth because 28 days into them i was um i was adopted uh one of the biggest uh
2:20:29
organizations in the world of adoption these days is quorum possibly the biggest actually i'm sure
2:20:35
my guest will confirm or deny that in just a moment. And we're looking at now the centenary
2:20:43
of legal adoption in England. And where that leads next, we will discover shortly because I am joined
2:20:50
by Dame Carol Hornden, who is the CEO of Quorum. And it's not a phrase I use very often, but she is
2:20:57
a great friend of this program. Shall we begin at the very beginning? What happened before adoption
2:21:03
was legalised, Carol? Well, it was the Wild West, James. I mean, there was not a proper framework for
2:21:13
regulating the ways in which children might move into a loving home or they might be exploited
2:21:20
And so this groundbreaking piece of legislation was a vital bedrock of child welfare legislation
2:21:28
and it was accompanied by other things at the time. And for the first time, it was possible
2:21:33
properly to transfer parental responsibility for a child so that they were as if born to
2:21:41
their adopt. That's the crucial distinction as opposed to living in a sort of form of
2:21:46
second class family status or even as you say a sort of formalized servitude or informal servitude
2:21:56
Yes that's right. It regularized things like inheritance rights and name entitlements because
2:22:03
Because, you know, many children who were born to unmarried mothers were treated as second-class citizens because of their illegitimacy
2:22:11
So when I was born and when I was adopted, it had only been a legally recognised process for 46 years
2:22:19
Yes, that's right. I mean it was really on the back of the First World War and the flu pandemic of that period in the early into the early 1920s that Parliament realised the importance really
2:22:36
of providing proper grounding for children who are very vulnerable. And, of course, there are still thousands of children in that category
2:22:45
over 3,000, in fact, currently on a placement order and waiting to be adopted
2:22:49
This is just in England, with over half of those waiting for 18 months or more
2:22:54
So we are marking the centenary by pointing out that there are way more children hoping to be adopted than there are currently families looking to adopt
2:23:04
1,350 approved adoptive families, 3,000 children with a placement order. In the years that you've been running Coram and working at Coram, why do you think, with a broader historical perspective, this gap is as big as it is today
2:23:22
Well, I think there's a demographic change. So first of all, many people in what one might describe
2:23:28
as the usual parenting age groups are also caring for elderly relatives
2:23:34
There has been a significant increase in the success rate and availability of infertility treatment
2:23:42
And there's been a cost of living crisis. Many of the children waiting, and let's remember how very young they are
2:23:49
We're talking about children under five. Most of them infants are under three
2:23:54
But many of them are waiting in sibling pairs. So, you know, you not only need to have room in your heart
2:24:00
you need to have room in your home. And housing costs, particularly here in London, can be a big barrier
2:24:08
So how do we alleviate those concerns? I mean, how does Coram persuade somebody or help somebody who is interested
2:24:17
but put off by some of the things that you've described to make the leap to become a family or a bigger family
2:24:25
Well, I think the first thing is that we encourage people to consider adoption as a way of enlarging their family
2:24:32
or forming their family. It is ordinary people who do this remarkable thing
2:24:38
And, you know, people are delaying having children longer than ever before
2:24:43
and for some of them, they will be willing to think about forming a family in a different way
2:24:50
We as agencies need to be utterly welcoming and help people to go through the process of exploring
2:24:57
whether they are able to care for a child from the care system, whether it is right for them
2:25:02
Adoption is for the few and not the many. And agencies work extremely hard and government has a role to play here
2:25:09
it needs to leave adopters in absolutely no doubt whatsoever that not only agencies but society as
2:25:17
a whole will stand with them and give them whatever support it is they need because this is the most
2:25:23
important thing for every vulnerable child that they have the stable permanent loving home that
2:25:28
they need the alternatives are instability care or residential i mean i suppose technically the
2:25:36
current government is only two or three weeks old so it may be a little bit unfair to ask you to grade
2:25:40
them out of 10 but i mean in the last few years the last few governments which is more or less the
2:25:46
same thing actually now i come to think of it but have have you been receiving the sort of political
2:25:50
support that you so obviously need well there's been a consistent narrative about the importance
2:25:55
of family in life of a child but there's been significant emphasis on fostering and please do
2:26:02
come forwards if you can help and foster children. We have an insufficiency across all types of care
2:26:09
at the moment, but there's always more government can do by the tone and the priority that it sets
2:26:17
And our Minister is energetic and committed to children having the loving home they need
2:26:23
of all kinds. But please do not forget adoption and its vital role as we mark this centenary
2:26:30
Indeed. And if you want to find out more about the work that Coram does and possibly what you could do with them, then go to Coram, that's C-O-R-A-M.org.uk
2:26:40
Carol, while I have you, I know that Coram is celebrating the centenary in a whole variety of ways. Tell me some of your favourites
2:26:49
Well, we've published a new website called adoptionstory.org.uk, where you can discover all the facets of adoption
2:26:57
and later this year and that includes many notable stories of all different kinds so please do
2:27:04
explore that we're running academic and professional programs of course but it is the voice of the
2:27:10
children and the voice of adopters that really matters at the heart of this and they are central
2:27:15
to this program so please visit the website and give your story and your contribution or visit
2:27:22
firstforadoption.org.uk and begin your adoption journey today. And yes, I mean, it may just be
2:27:28
that some people need their hand held. Yes, that's very much what Coram and other agencies do
2:27:36
It's a bit like having your own personal guide through the process. And of course
2:27:41
the process has challenges in it because we're going to entrust the life of a child into your
2:27:48
hands. Hard to think of anything that's more important. Thank you, Carol. Always a pleasure
2:27:53
to talk to you. Dame Carol Omden, the CEO of Quorum, where, as you've heard, there is a
2:28:00
heartbreaking imbalance between the number of children with a placement order and the number
2:28:04
of children, beg your pardon, the number of families currently looking to adopt. Do you know
2:28:09
why it's called Quorum? Have I told you this before? Thomas Quorum was a sea captain who
2:28:14
took it upon himself to look after what were then known as foundlings
2:28:20
So these would be children that were just sort of left by mothers
2:28:24
who would usually be unmarried. Quite often they'd have been in domestic servitude themselves
2:28:29
so they'd sort of fallen pregnant to, I don't know, either the man of the house or the son of the house
2:28:35
or a footman or somebody like that, and they had nowhere to go. And of course, if they had a baby, they'd lost their job
2:28:41
So the babies would just be left by the roadside or left on doorsteps
2:28:45
And Thomas Corham was a sea captain who used some of the money he made from his maritime adventures to set up the Foundling Hospital, which sat in, I always forget which square it is, just down near Hoban, just near Russell Square, just behind Russell Square
2:29:00
And if you've read the books, the Hetty Feather books, that's sort of all about Thomas Corham's work
2:29:10
Those books are wonderful, the Jacqueline Wilson books. They're just beautiful, magical books
2:29:16
But Thomas Corham was a fundraiser as well, raised money off people like Handel
2:29:20
I think the royalties from the Messiah went to the Foundling Hospital
2:29:24
unless I've got that complete. But anyway, I mean, it is, even if you've got no interest in adopting at all
2:29:29
or indeed adoption, then the history is just fascinating, and it may tempt you to make a donation to the charity as well
2:29:36
Incredibly important and good work. It is Brunswick Square. There she is
2:29:41
I googled it. You did the knowledge. You did the knowledge, didn't you, just between jobs back in the day
2:29:47
I don't know if you saw Sheila bombing around on her moped. Her radio's gain is the taxi industry's lost you. Absolutely
2:29:53
It was Brunswick Square. I love to be a cabbie. You can still visit, right? You can still visit the founding hospital
2:29:58
It's a really exciting play, really interesting. It's a nice one for the kids as well, especially if they've read the Hetty Feather books
2:30:02
That's it from me for today. You can listen back on Global Player app. It's free. All the LBC apps
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Stay up to date with all the latest news, videos and opinions. You can listen to a range of podcasts
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2:30:15
So do download the official LBC app for free from your app store now. Tom Swarbrick with you at four
2:30:20
Sheila Fogarty with you now. She's not going south of the river. I'm not going south of the river, no
2:30:25
James O'Brien on LBC
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