Up next in 10
This is a catch-up version of James O'Brien's live, daily show on LBC Radio from the 25th of September, 2026.
00:00 - Lucy Powell: Vocational GCSEs Not Dumbing Down - They're Very Hard - Is This the Way Forward?
50:00 - More Than 52,000 Claiming Benefits for Non-Specific Back Pain - How Completely Crippling Can This Be?
01:39:00 - Mamdani's 'Opera for All': How New Yorkers Can Get 70,000 Free Met Opera Tickets - What Makes the Opera So Special? Is It Really Very Different From Other Art Forms?
02:19:00 - Full Disclosure: Eric Idle
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0:00
Three minutes after ten is the time, and I think this is possibly my biggest area of disagreement with Andy Burnham so far, but I could be wrong
0:13
And here, from a text that's already come into the programme, here is one of the possible reasons why I am wrong
0:21
It's from Marley, who writes, Your one flaw, James. Oh, come on, Marley, don't be ridiculous. I've got 99 floors, and quite possibly this ain't one
0:30
Your one flaw, James, is your belief in a system that you have benefited from
0:34
People being second-class citizens is about perception, a perception developed as a consequence of our political, social and cultural systems
0:42
But you know this. I used that phrase just in the little bit before the news
0:47
and lest it was misunderstood, I'm talking about the idea that at the age of 14
0:53
it is decided that you are not academic. That's all I mean
0:57
I don't mean first class and second class citizens by dint of what it is that you do later
1:01
I think that those distinctions are dying every day now. You know, the dream of blue collar workers in the 1950s and 60s that their own children would grow up to be white collar workers
1:14
That's going because the white collar jobs are disappearing at a rate of knots
1:19
And the only mystery is whether or not the robots are going to replace all the blue collar jobs as well
1:23
So, you know, what would you rather your kid did? train as a plumber or train as a clerk
1:29
or whatever the modern equivalent is of Bob Cratchit. For me, it would be plumber every time
1:35
Blue collar, not white collar. So that's what I meant by second class. Andy Burnham has said
1:40
We've all heard someone say school wasn't really for me. And we should think about why that is
1:49
Our system is set up to reward young people who thrive in academic subjects and exams
1:55
but what about those who learn best by getting stuck in and doing things
2:03
And I don't know that we have all heard someone say school wasn't really for me
2:10
Because, and this is really important, the reason I mention my education whenever we are discussing matters educational
2:19
is pretty straightforward. It's because it is, as Marley points out, the lens through which I see the world
2:24
but it's also I increasingly realize as I get older it's an entirely foreign country to most
2:30
people the kind of school that I went to despite the fact that for us it's completely normal and
2:36
we know no differently it's it's insanely alien to the massive majority of people in this country
2:43
including of course ordinary people who could never dream of going to a school like mine or
2:47
sending their children to a school like mine for simply financial reasons who've somehow been
2:51
persuaded to dedicate their political power to defending the privilege and defending the
2:57
inequality. It's extraordinary. But this is where I am coming from. It's going to be very personal
3:02
today. At least the lever with which I want to open up this subject is bespoke. It's my lever
3:09
I'm not sure that many other people have got exactly the same lever, even if they went to a
3:13
school exactly like mine. But if you went to a school like mine, you would thrive in academic
3:19
subjects, even if, and they didn't do selection at entry at my school, unlike an awful lot of
3:25
expensive fee-paying schools, they didn't have an entrance exam, which would mean that even
3:29
at the age of 11 or 13, you're being sort of separated
3:33
and told that that path is not for you. We had streaming in
3:37
school, five streams, A to E, and they were, and then within the streaming
3:43
of A to E streaming, we had sets for each class. So you could
3:47
be like a French kid who was I nearly said thick as mince then
3:51
which is not helpful but a French kid who wasn't very good academically
3:56
when they arrived at the school might be in stream E but they'd be in set one for French
4:00
you see because they could speak it was absolutely rigorous and forensic
4:04
the constant streaming but the point is that a school like mine
4:09
would expect the lads in the E stream to get a decent bunch of A levels
4:19
and go to university and, and we're going back now to the late 1980s, early 1990s
4:24
and as I said at the outset, things have really changed, and get a job commensurate with their academic qualifications
4:33
So, if Andy Burnham, and I'm glad he doesn't, because I want him to govern for the majority
4:39
but if Andy Burnham had been to a school like mine, if Andy Burnham's social circle was the same, for example
4:44
as Boris Johnson's or David Cameron's, I don't think he would have met many people
4:49
who said school wasn't really for me. The only fellow I can remember
4:54
his granddad owned half of Hampshire and all he wanted to do was farm
4:59
So he just didn't see any point at all in engaging academically
5:03
But if his grandfather hadn't owned half of Hampshire, a property to which he would eventually inherit
5:10
then the school would have actually turned him into somebody for whom school..
5:15
He's still got A-levels and I think he went to Sire and Sester Agricultural College, if memory serves
5:19
but do you see what I mean? And the reason why I opened with the acknowledgement
5:26
of how alien my experience is to almost everybody's, because, you know, they break it down
5:33
7% or 8% of the population is privately educated, but then you move into the..
5:39
And every parent pays money for their child's education in expectation of it being better than they would get
5:44
if they didn't pay money. But then within that, the strata are insane as well
5:51
Because, you know, the actual big traditional public schools give you not just the academic credibility
5:58
that you will need to push certain doors open or even just to have them open magically in front of you
6:04
but the really posh schools, the really fancy schools, also give you the cachet
6:09
There was another story this week, I just couldn't see a way into it, about nepotism, effectively
6:14
and about how it is still one of the biggest factors in whether or not you can get a break
6:22
is who you know, not what you know. So schools like mine give you both
6:26
They give you who you know and what you know. Have a look at the country
6:30
and ask yourself why the smartest person you know is not the richest person you know
6:37
or the most successful person you know or the most famous, I don't know, what measure you prefer
6:44
But the reason will be inequality and unfairness. The reason will be that if everybody in this country went to a school like mine
6:51
the country would be unrecognisable. The country would be absolutely unrecognisable. And all of the top jobs would be held by the most talented people
7:03
regardless of when and where they had been born or when and where they had been educated
7:09
Now, if I gave you a little dial of idealism or naivety
7:13
Where would you put me now? I don't think I've said anything that's particularly naive or ideal
7:20
but I'm about to. It would be great wouldn it if everybody got the best possible education because then we would edge closer to something that began to resemble a meritocracy That the idealism out of the way and now comes the pessimism
7:38
It's never going to happen. Certainly not as long as private education exists or private tuition exists
7:44
as long as some parents can spend some of their money on their children's education
7:49
while other parents, whether they've got the money or not, choose not to
7:53
it's never going to happen you're never going to have equality and if you don't have equality of education
7:59
you're never going to have meritocracy so the thing that worries me
8:10
about stories like this is the sense of these 14 year olds
8:17
that Andy Burnham is talking about and that Lucy Powell the education secretary
8:21
addressed yesterday is that they are being essentially labelled at 14 as non-academic, right
8:33
And at a school like mine, even the lads in E-Stream were not marked forever as being non-academic
8:44
They would still be... I mean, that was the thing that their parents paid for. We will get your child decent A-level grades
8:51
even though he's in the lowest 20% of the academic spectrum at our school
8:57
It was as if everybody is capable of educational achievement. A lot of this has only come to me later, you know
9:03
I didn't clock any of this at the time. I was too busy faffing about. And I have this..
9:10
This is where I sound a little bit naive, perhaps. I just think that's sad
9:15
I think it would be tragic to be labelled at 14. And I think if I'm really honest with you
9:21
I suspect if I'd gone to a very different school, if I'd gone to a school at the other end of the socioeconomic scale
9:27
I'd have disappeared. I guess I had a tendency to get into huge amounts of trouble
9:31
I was very, you know, I had problems with some teachers. If I got lucky and one teacher took me under their wing
9:37
I might have thrived, but it's perfectly possible I would have been very much a problem child
9:42
I got into enough trouble at my school, but that's not the point
9:46
I'm just always motivated by the thought of that 14-year-old who could do great things
9:54
but who has been labelled at 14 as, and Andy Burnham is doing it
9:59
as someone who learns best by getting stuck in and doing things
10:04
Is it either or? Is it either or? And, I mean, listen, I want you to talk to me about what you think
10:14
and indeed why you think it. And I think, as with me, it's going to have a lot to do with your own background
10:20
or your own education, what you think about this. But the question isn't really very complicated
10:29
I think the question's pretty straightforward. That the answers will be the ones possessed of nuance
10:37
Sam Friedman, who worked with Michael Gove in the Department of Education
10:41
but don't hold that against him. I mean, number one, and certainly on the PISA scores and things like that
10:45
some of the stuff that Gove introduced is standing the test of time. But I really like this guy
10:50
He does a substat with his dad, Lawrence Friedman, the professor of war studies at King's
10:53
and it's one of my go-to things now. And he pointed out, apparently the way Burnham thinks we get parity of esteem
11:00
is by saying vocational qualifications are for non-academic kids. Has it occurred to him that someone saying school wasn't for me
11:09
went to a rubbish school or wasn't taught to read properly at primary
11:13
excuse me and i think that's brilliant i think that's such a brilliant observation
11:21
when you see a 14 year old and you say oh school's not for them you are probably saying i think
11:30
oh that person went to a rubbish school or that person slipped through the net or that person
11:36
wasn't taught to read properly at primary school so of course they've never engaged of course
11:43
they've concluded themselves that school wasn't for them. But here's the problem
11:51
Here's the problem. This is the world we live in now. And if you have reached the age of 14
11:59
and the academic world has not worked for you, then regardless of the fact that in a different universe it would have done
12:08
regardless of the fact that at a different school it would have done, what should happen to you at 14
12:14
Should you be encouraged down a vocational route? And a vocational route will include anything from carpentry to hairdressing
12:22
doing something that does not demand traditional academic classroom-based qualifications. And the idea is that that decision will be made at 14
12:35
That decision will be made at 14. And I don't know whether that's fair or not because of my rarefied education, because of what I've just shared with you about my background, which show you might be sitting there thinking, yeah, you're an idiot. I mean, you're a well-meaning idiot, but we have to legislate for the world that we inhabit. We can't have an education system that's geared towards some idealistic utopia where every child gets the best possible education and therefore the country achieves its full potential in ways that no other country in history has managed to achieve
13:07
this is the world we live in, James. At the age of 14, it's too late to rescue a kid
13:12
It's too late to get a kid on an academic path. And there's certainly no way it's going to happen
13:15
in 80% of state schools. They're too busy looking after the kids who are engaged
13:19
and who are studying and who are working. So, what do you think
13:27
I mean, hand on heart and draw on yourself or a child that you know. So the child that you were
13:33
or the child that you know and tell me what you think about
13:39
segregating 14-year-olds according to their already finalised academic ability
13:52
So here we're 114-year-olds, 20 of them are going down the vocational route
13:56
or 50 of them are going down the vocational route. I just think it's too soon and quite..
14:08
But now I sound like a snob because now I'm sort of saying
14:12
oh, well, if those are the only jobs that these kids are going to be able, then there's something inferior
14:17
I categorically don't believe that. I'm talking really about education for education's sake
14:23
The thing you get from having a relationship with books or with numbers or with science
14:29
the things, the intangibles, sometimes the indescribables, the things you get from education
14:36
that are not linked to bar charts, that they are an end in themselves
14:46
And so if you get a good education and then you decide that you want to do something
14:51
a little bit more hands-on or a little bit more vocational, that's great
14:55
That great especially these days But to tell 14 that the classroom is not for them and the workshop is
15:06
that's a big change. I want to know what you think about it
15:10
I wonder if anyone's old enough to remember what the 11 plus was like when this was kind of done in a slightly different way
15:14
But that's it. You're telling 14-year-olds that the classroom is not for you
15:20
And I want you to tell me whether you think that's a good thing or a bad thing
15:24
that's all. It might well be a good thing. I am absolutely a
15:28
victim of my own back. We all are here. But is it a good thing
15:34
I think I'm quite pleased with how I've explained that for once. I think I've actually got it across to you quite
15:38
correctly. So is it a good thing to tell 14 year olds that the classroom
15:44
is not for you? With this caveat that if you'd gone to my school
15:48
then even if you were in the lowest academic set, you would never
15:52
have been told that. They would have expected you to get good grades
15:57
What do we think about a country that tells 14-year-olds, OK, mate, the classroom's not for you
16:04
The workshop is. 0345 6060 973. James O'Brien on LBC. It is 21 minutes after 10
16:15
I'm just going to add one little layer to that introduction that's come from Nicky
16:20
It's the same old hypocrisy. We constantly hear politicians, media pundits, and the comfortable middle classes bleating about too many people are going to university
16:29
We need more vocational courses. I don't think Andy Burnham's in that category, but that's pretty close to what he's saying
16:37
What they really mean, argues Nicky, is university is for our children and vocational training is for yours
16:44
Their little darlings get the opportunities while everyone else must know their place
16:49
This elitist nonsense has been going on for decades. And I can be drawn to that position quite easily
16:57
I can feel the siren lure of that position, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's correct
17:03
What do we think about segregating kids at 14 between, and this is me oversimplifying things, of course
17:11
but between the classroom for thee, the workshop for me, or to categorise Nicky's description
17:17
in the classroom for me, the workshop for thee. Ben's in Crystal Palace
17:22
Ben, what do you reckon? I think it's a disastrous policy, to be honest
17:28
Tell me why. Well, I went to a state school. My daughter now goes to a private school
17:34
so we've been fortunate enough to put her into what I think
17:38
will become an advantage position as she grows up. And at 14 years old
17:42
I think back to me and all of my friends, we weren't really ready to decide kind of uh gcses or or vocational and i think 14 your brain's
17:55
still developing you're still under you're still learning about the world and yourself and i
18:00
wouldn't have called myself academic at 14 but i ended up i ended up going to university
18:04
when i'm doing a levels ended up setting up my own business and i just think that at 14 all of
18:11
all of those opportunities would have been removed from me, I think would not put children on the right path
18:18
Well, we come from different backgrounds, although we've arrived perhaps or ended up in more similar places
18:24
than we started, and your feelings pretty much echo mine. It just feels as if you're being told
18:31
or these young people will be told, that that's not for you
18:35
And, I mean, I don't know how you could make it clear that it wasn't a two-tier education system
18:41
It's going to feel like one. And then you might know more about this than I do. At my school, Ben, you weren't really allowed to opt out, you know
18:47
I mean, obviously, we used to laugh at the swats a bit, but not that much
18:51
You would never have, for example, somebody who didn't think it was..
18:58
Someone who didn't want their mates to think they were clever. I've got friends who went to normal schools
19:04
as we usually call them, and one of them, in fact, three or four of them, listened to the programme, and they constantly tease me
19:10
about how if you did that at my school, you'd have got your head kicked in. You know, even if it was, like, art
19:16
or playing the cello or something. If I think back to school, it was interesting
19:20
I went to a... I'm not sure if I'm allowed to name the school. Oh, well, there's no need. I just call it normal
19:26
Well, I went to a school that opened in September 1991. Okay
19:30
So that was when I was 11, and I went to what was now my senior school
19:35
And at the time, so year seven, the school day was 8.30 to 5.30
19:42
It was 8.30 to 5.30, and the school had decided we're going to develop
19:46
we're going to operate these hours to get children ready for work, which was great
19:50
And this was a regular state school. It was fantastic. And at 14, you start thinking about, okay, what GCSEs am I going to choose
20:01
And we had the options of some vocational edged GCSEs. Right. But to say to a child now, oh, you can't choose maths or you can't choose English, you can't choose double science
20:11
In fact, you're going to have to choose between woodwork. Well, it wouldn't quite be that
20:17
I mean, let's be clear. You would still be doing literacy and numeracy
20:21
And, of course, any job that you're going to do in the future is going to depend in part on those
20:25
But you would be encouraged to go down good quality vocational qualification rather than academic
20:32
So, I mean, it's not going to be a zero-sum game. But yeah, you're right. Your feelings echo mine
20:37
14. I mean, at any age, it's a tough thing to do
20:41
But at 14, it seems to me to be more of a guillotine
20:45
More of a guillotine than an opportunity. But we could both be wrong. Of course we could
20:50
Gail's in Farnham. Gail, what would you like to say? Hi, James. Thanks for taking my call. I appreciate it
20:58
Yeah, so when I was at school, when I was 14, I went to see a careers teacher
21:03
who pretty much told me that I wasn't academic and that I should pursue vocational, you know, a vocational route
21:11
I should go into childcare, something like that. So as a result of that, I then thought that I was actually quite fit
21:19
Had you thought that before? No, absolutely not. So the careers advisor said this and you kind of went
21:25
oh, oh, I didn't realise that. Well, okay, what do I do next? So then I sort of dropped the ball with academia
21:31
and I was like, well, obviously, you know, academics isn't for me. I'm not going to try hard at school. So I just kind of, I did
21:37
all right. I did okay. But I don't think that I was supported, you know, through, I was
21:44
probably one of those students that needed a little bit of help, you know, a little bit
21:48
more help. You know, I mean, I passed my GCSEs, etc. And I think if I hadn't have been told
21:55
that, I think I would have, I wouldn't have labelled myself as the kind of, you know
22:01
Not the sicko as such, but just somebody that academic work was not for
22:06
And later in life, I retrained as a teacher and went to university. So I feel like if I had have had that kind of message given to me and that support
22:17
perhaps I would have gone on to, you know, to university, after school, etc
22:22
But you would. Yeah. You would. If you gone to my school you seen well I mean if you gone to my school it would have been very odd because there weren any girls But apart from that little loophole if you gone to my school you absolutely would have gone to university Because I mean they never would have said that to you
22:36
Partly because your parents were paying. So I think that if your parents are paying tens of thousands of pounds a year and a teacher turns around and says
22:42
well, the academics aren't really for you, your parents are going to say, well, what the hell am I paying for? Exactly. I mean, this is a state school
22:48
So, you know, it was... Of course it was. Yeah, and I think I sort of labelled myself from that moment on
22:55
I was like, okay, so vocational it is for me. And I didn't even, like, apply to do A-levels
23:01
All my friends were going to the local college, you know, to do A-levels
23:05
And I was like, oh, no, I've been told I need to go to the... And listen, it may be that they can come up with a system that spikes these guns, you know
23:13
that avoids these pratfalls or these pitfalls, but they have not described it yet, that system
23:18
And it's not just me that thinks that. Alan Smithers, the director of the Centre for Education and Employment Research
23:24
at the University of Buckingham, says literally that the government is spot on in identifying a problem with vocational education in schools
23:31
but added what it proposes is not the solution. So I don't know how you do it
23:35
And one thing that would need to be addressed is this sense of status
23:40
this sense of two tiers. And Andy Burnham has accidentally added to that
23:45
by talking about school wasn't really for me. School wasn't really for me, Andy
23:50
that's not what you even mean, mate. I mean, school could be a place
23:54
where you get taught lots of other things that are of more use in the workplace, but it's still school
24:00
It's not classroom versus workshop. It's better classrooms that we should be
24:05
I don't know. As I say, I'm thinking out loud. I totally disagree with you, James, says Hazel
24:11
No one is going to tell a 14-year-old what to do. They will be given a choice. Surely that is good
24:16
I disagree again. I don't think it is good. I think when you're 14, you want the teachers that you have
24:21
and the school that you're in to be absolutely dedicated into teaching you as much as they possibly can
24:27
And at the moment, the world that we inhabit, that is a classroom-based education
24:31
And this is the bit. This is why I do wang on about my own education because hardly anybody does, you see
24:37
It's such a well-kept secret. How do you think people like Jacob Rees-Mogg end up in the House of Commons
24:41
or Boris Johnson ends up in Downing Street? Johnson, obviously bright. Rees-Mogg, obviously not
24:47
but a brilliant education is like a laxative, a social laxative. You can slide through life effortlessly
24:55
with the combination of the academics and the social gifts that a public school education gives you
25:02
And unless you went there, you've got no idea. Every single 13-year-old that I started school with
25:08
would be expected to get good A-level grades. And guess what? They would all get them
25:13
All of them. And there was no academic selection. there was no academic selection
25:19
So that's where I'm coming from. But maybe that's just stupid. Maybe this rarefied minority experience
25:26
of people who went to schools like mine, when someone like Boris Johnson comes out with a policy like this
25:32
I think, how dare you? It's the workshop for mine, it's the classroom for thine
25:36
But when Andy Burnham comes out with it, I'm thinking, well, maybe he knows more about this world than I do
25:40
And 14 is a reasonable age at which to say, OK, vocational for you, academic for you
25:46
It just keeps coming back to me that it would never happen at the kind of school that I went to
25:51
It's half past ten. Dominic Ellis has the headlines. London's Victims Commissioner says the public have been grossly failed by the decision to bail a paedophile to his flat overlooking a playground
26:01
Zafir Dogen was jailed for 28 months yesterday for taking photos of women and girls before using AI to turn them into nude images
26:10
The anti-migrant activist Daniel Thomas is due in court shortly, charged with criminal damage
26:15
It's alleged that the 37-year-old slashed a boat with a knife in the English Channel
26:19
while an emergency responder was on board. And the Pope has arrived in France as part of a four-day visit to the country
26:26
Pope Leo will later give a keynote speech on AI at the UN's Cultural Heritage Organisation in Paris
26:33
LBC weather, rain lingering in northern and central areas of the UK
26:37
dry and warm in the southeast, a high of 26 degrees. If you're into monologues of epic proportions
26:43
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You must be 18 or over to subscribe, and you can find it right now on our Global Player app
27:01
the official LBC app, or at lbccatchupplus.com. James O'Brien on LBC. It is 10.34 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
27:15
where I have just got the inkling, the beginnings of an inkling
27:18
that I'm doing a thing that I try not to do which is looking at the world when we discuss educational issues
27:24
through the lens of my own experiences. So I patted myself on the back for that just after 10 o'clock
27:30
But of course it's a very different world now. Quite a few of you picking up on this
27:33
Andy perhaps most pithily. Ten years ago he writes, I would have agreed with you James
27:38
that this is wrong. However, with the advent of AI, a lot of jobs that more academic pupils will do
27:44
will be affected and in some cases won't even exist. So we need to plan an education system
27:49
around what the world of work will look like in 2035, not 2015
27:54
All right, I'll push back on that and say, yeah, we'll teach all the kids all the things
27:59
It shouldn't be either or. You want to bring in more vocational subjects, do them alongside all the other subjects
28:05
I think everyone might benefit from having a slightly more vocational education
28:11
Everyone would benefit from that, except people who are destined to be Oxford dons. And do you know what? It would probably do them some good as well
28:18
This is what I object to, is the segregation. The idea that it's necessary
28:23
It's another thing, actually, about a school like mine, is that you wouldn't believe the hour
28:28
What did I say the other day that people couldn't? Oh, yeah, two hours every day, hour and a half every day for sport
28:32
And then you'd go back in the classroom afterwards. You know, have lessons again in the afternoon
28:36
You wouldn't clock off until 6, 6.30. And you wonder why the country is dominated by people
28:42
men largely, who went to schools like mine. And some of the lads I was talking about, actually
28:47
as in my personal friends, who went to very different schools and find it extraordinary when I tell them
28:52
what was absolutely commonplace at mine, I contribute into this conversation. They don't have to tell you that it's not for you
28:59
It's implicit, wrote one, to which another replied, the trouble is that message can stay with you
29:04
holding you back, you identify with, it's never for me. And then adding, you stay in your lane
29:11
So both saying the same thing in different ways. And that's in the system as it stands now
29:17
So you go into their school and separate further kids for the classroom, kids for the workshop
29:24
I don't know. I don't know. Because now I'm thinking maybe, yeah, all right, mate, in the 90s, when you left school
29:30
late in 1990, literally, then all of everything you said would have been correct
29:35
But it's 2026 now. The world is changing. And this is an example from Andy Burnham's point of view
29:42
of how to change with it. Margaret's in Bromley. Margaret, what would you like to say? Hi, James
29:46
I'll start by saying I think you're amazing. Quite right. Now I've got that out. Carry on, thank you
29:51
I've got three things. The first one, I'll cover them, which is choice and options for young people
29:57
Number two, we've got so many needs at the moment moment, it allows people to potentially stay in school and attain something. Yes
30:05
And the last thing is I am a woman working in construction
30:10
When I was given careers advice growing up, I was seen as academic
30:14
Right, Margaret, you could, I've got a law degree. I have a law degree. I have a master's in international relations
30:19
I also have a Princeton qualification. And I now work in construction because I was told you go and do all of those things because
30:27
you're academic. And no one said construction, as a project manager, as an engineer, as a ground worker, as a maintenance person, was an option for me
30:36
And I think it's so important that we give people choice and option and access to lots of different things
30:44
And I think this does that. You don't think, I mean, if you're right, I'm wrong
30:49
No, seriously. Well, you're never wrong. I am. I'm often wrong. I've written a whole bloody book about it. I'm often wrong
30:54
I think you're describing the system that the fellow from the University of Buckingham would like to see
31:02
but he doesn't think that what the government is proposing is actually that. He doesn't think the system is ready or the school system is ready to do what you dream of
31:10
and what Andy Burnham clearly wants to see. In fact, he has said that the schools can't do this
31:16
Most schools lack the mindset, the facilities, the specialist teachers to provide practical learning
31:20
that would be of direct value to employers. And the thing I'd ask you is, why is it either or
31:26
It doesn't have to be either or. I think it's at so many levels
31:30
So when you're making your choices, you should be given more option
31:34
At the moment, it is too narrow. You're either academic or you become a neat
31:39
But surely they're going to make it even more narrow, aren't they, with this? No, it doesn't
31:43
It gives you choice. It gives you options. And not just that
31:46
You are still, as you said a moment ago, you are still doing maths, English learning
31:51
But also, why does learning have to be in one particular way? You can learn in so different ways through practical means, through construction, through IT
32:00
I think we are making it too narrow. But also, schools can be set up to do this
32:06
And the option is do nothing. Is that what we want to do? To go down a road continuously of we do nothing because nobody's ready
32:13
We do nothing but the schools are not there. If you absolutely put these things in place, there will be people like myself
32:19
who would volunteer to talk to young people about career in construction
32:23
And it's there. I mean, it's on the list. It's one of the subjects. And this is why I'm so excited
32:27
because as a woman in construction, I can't wait to show young girls and boys
32:33
that you can go into this particular field and not be pigeonholed
32:38
That's what we want to do. Give people options. Oh, no. Have I messed this up
32:44
Oh. Because now you say this and I'm reading Laura Trott who's one of those sort of ridiculous Tories
32:51
who thrive under Cammy Baden-Ox regime. Right, oh, here we go. She says, no, I know
32:55
Oh, this is a bad day. Better schools will continue to protect rigorous subjects
32:59
but disadvantaged children will be steered towards easier routes, lowering expectations for the very pupils
33:05
who need high standards most. That sounds a bit like me, doesn't it? She doesn't understand what we need
33:11
In the market at the moment, we have a low skill shortage. We need people in so many different industries
33:17
and we are not meeting that need. The school is not meeting that need. And to open it up and to give people options and choices
33:24
these are the things that we need for the future. We're thinking too short term. And I think they don't even understand the system to be able to advise it
33:31
I think this is a great opportunity and opens so many doors for young people
33:36
And also, the thing is, you only go down the road that you see
33:41
In my environment, I only saw one thing. This gives you access to so much more
33:47
And I think that's it. You've got to open young people's minds to not just one opportunity
33:53
Give them access to so much and it creates a world that we wouldn't even expect
33:58
And that's why we've got to try. We've got to try this
34:02
Have you just done me up? Oh, not on purpose. I think you're amazing
34:08
Yeah, I'm glad you opened with that. You put me on the back foot, really. It's offered me up for the pummeling
34:13
that you went on to give me. You basically put me in the same corner as Laura Trott
34:17
and dance rings around both of us. No, not at all. I think you are challenging
34:21
and I think it's important to look at different angles of this. What I would need to join you in the promised land
34:30
is confidence that there would be equal weight, as it were, that you could do it all
34:36
And I don't know that the system is capable of delivering that because it's buckling under the weight of what it's already delivering
34:42
But before that, or apart from that, What made you, when did you change lanes
34:47
What happened post-Masters that made you see this course? I wasn't fulfilled
34:53
And not just that. I started, and I think what we need to explain to young people
34:57
you don't have one career. You are going to have six, seven, eight
35:02
With the introduction of AI, you are never going to have the same job
35:05
And not just that, there is never, at the moment, there is no job security
35:09
You must be able to pivot. and in my career I have had access to so many different people and conversations and networking
35:18
and I've realized there is so much more of the world out there that I have never experienced
35:23
and I wasn't fulfilled so I wanted more and when I fell I fell into construction it was purely by
35:30
accident I could not believe that I was good at this I could do this and there were other women
35:36
and I was maybe one of the first. And that is what we need to start showing young people
35:41
And, yeah, maybe that is the promised land, but I think we need to give them that opportunity
35:46
If that's what Lucy Powell and Andy Burnham were talking about, I wouldn't have been having this phone in
35:50
And I don't know whether this is a desperate line of defence against your full-fronted assault
35:55
but I don't think that is what they're talking about. It might be what they're dreaming of, but it's not what they're describing
35:59
and it's not what the system is currently capable of delivering. But it blooming well should do, shouldn't it
36:04
It should. It should. And let's support our teachers to do that. Let's support the education system
36:09
Let's get the roles out there and the jobs out there and find the people to do it and set it up
36:14
Just because it's not there now, it doesn't mean it can't be. Would you do it yourself
36:19
Would you look into it yourself? A hundred percent. I would dedicate my time and effort to showing people
36:26
young people in the industry, that there is so much more to what they think is this narrow path
36:32
And I think that's why young people get stuck. they're like oh i have to choose one thing i have to be academic i have to pass my gcse's i have to
36:39
and therefore they block they stop or the opposite or the opposite or i'm not therefore i'm already
36:45
a failure therefore i'm opting out therefore i'm not bothering exactly exactly so i would and there
36:51
are people out there james and i and i and yeah and whether we agree or disagree i think you're
36:56
still incredible and amazing and true inspiration honestly i listen to you every single day let me
37:02
repay that with some interest because this has come in from dp and and there are a lot of messages
37:06
like this coming into the studio and um this is my favorite because of the way it's so
37:11
personal she just writes where was this woman when i was a kid she's brilliant thank you no thank you
37:17
and let me add if i may that that it is um building and construction is absolutely on the list
37:23
for the avoidance of for the avoidance of doubt the kids the kids would still be studying english maths and science but the new subjects could include business management finance child development and
37:35
here it is, building and construction. If you get Margaret as a teacher, I think you'll be absolutely set for life
37:42
James O'Brien on LBC. At 10.48 is the time and inspired by Margaret, I'll put my guard down and take a few more
37:50
slaps around the chops, shall I? this in a text, James, I love you, but basically you look down on people in the workshop. That's
37:57
all it is. It's a side effect of your upbringing. I hope not. I mean, I really don't think that's
38:01
true. And, you know, I could call upon testimonials to prove it. But I do think, because of my
38:09
education, that everybody is perfectly capable of getting good A-level results. Everybody is
38:16
and to say at 14 you're not just seems to me to be a shame but i see it's hard to separate that
38:22
from the idea that what you end up doing as a consequence of being told at 14 that a levels
38:28
aren't really for you is it could sound like i'm looking down on that but i'm not my granddad was
38:33
was worked in a workshop my maternal granddad was the head of maintenance in sheffield three
38:38
sheffield steelworks so you know it's not it's not quite as straightforward it's certainly not
38:43
this, you cheeky so-and-so from Stuart Jones. I worry that you're drawing
38:47
too much upon your own experience as a young construction worker. I'm definitely
38:51
not doing that, you dingbat. And this is lovely as well. I've actually
38:55
seen this. Shaparack calls Andy comparing her career's chat. I think she went to high school in Hanwell
39:00
to that of Boris Johnson, who of course went to Eton. And Andy
39:04
acknowledges this isn't verbatim, but it is part of Shappie's act. Well, Shappie, you're not a high achiever, but you communicate
39:11
well and you clearly have an interest in travel. what with being from Iran and everything. Have you considered becoming a travel agent
39:16
And then you have the same experience being undergone at a very different school by Boris Johnson
39:23
and the conversation goes thusly. Well, Boris, you're not a high achiever, but I think he was, to be fair
39:27
But you communicate well, and you clearly have an interest in travel, what with being born in the USA and everything
39:32
Have you considered becoming prime minister? That's what I'm trying to talk about
39:36
So it's not that I'm looking down on the workshop. I just think, you know
39:41
you go to a school, like his or mine, and you say I want to be Prime Minister when I grow up, and nobody laughs
39:49
Imagine that. Jessica's in Queen's Park. Jessica, what would you like to say
39:54
Hello, James. Hello, Jessica. First time caller and all that. You're very welcome
39:58
and all that. I just thought I would like to introduce a bit of reality
40:05
I work in a Brent secondary school as an invigilator in the summer
40:10
and other bits and pieces. I've been doing it for about five years
40:14
And I see the reality of GCSEs and how many kids are realistically going to pass them
40:22
how many kids are actually going to walk out with absolutely nothing. Yeah. And that's what they're addressing
40:28
They're not addressing some theoretical utopia where everybody gets an education like mine
40:33
And everybody thinks about doing A-levels. A lot of those kids, A-levels, they would just laugh in your face
40:39
if you said, you know, at the age of 14, don't want to go and do A-levels. They don't even want to do GCSEs
40:45
They don't think school has anything, anything to offer them. But they have already been let down
40:52
They weren't born like that. And again, I can't get past this line
40:56
I'm saying far too much. If they'd gone to a school like mine
41:00
they would be doing A-levels. But they're never going to get to do that. The reality is, and every year, every year I see it
41:06
and every year it becomes a bit more heartbreaking. to see these kids that are going to live
41:11
And I'm talking about quite large numbers. They're going to leave with nothing
41:15
We've offered them nothing. And they're 16 and they're leaving school. And I try and talk to them about what they're going to go on and do next
41:23
And some of them aren't even going to bother to go. They're supposed to legally go to some sort of a college
41:28
But you know that loads of them aren't. They're going to go to nothing. They're going to be hanging around the streets
41:34
So if we file this under, let's find some way of engaging these young people, it begins to feel and look a whole lot different
41:42
All right, then I'll be the misery guts now then, rather than being the Pollyanna with the rose-tinted spectacles
41:48
Why are they more likely to engage with, let me read the list again, finance, business, management, building and construction or child development than they are with geography or history
42:00
I'm not sure. I'm not saying the list is correct. I don't want to badger you, but what would you put on the list
42:08
They're all very keen on social media. It needs to be something that actually engages them
42:13
Music in a modern way, social media influencing, they spend their life on the internet
42:20
I don't know, I'd have to... But it needs to be something modern
42:25
It wouldn't be any worse. Even if it didn't work, it wouldn't make anything worse than it does
42:29
It wouldn't make anything worse. I have been, I was, about two years ago, I was in a sports hall of just over 200 kids
42:37
And I think it was a science GCSE. I think it was chemistry
42:42
I walked every lane and counted how many kids in that hall were going to fail that exam
42:47
And that's purely by, about 10% hadn't written a thing other than their name
42:53
Another 15%-ish hadn't written enough to pass. So that's 25% of 200 kids
43:01
And that doesn't count the kids that had written enough but wouldn't pass anyway
43:06
So they're wasting their time and everybody else's, as things stand. And money, because that school has to pay
43:12
for every single exam that kid does. And it does pay because it wants to give everybody a chance
43:18
everybody an equal chance. But it's just a lost cause. Yeah, and, you know, just because we can't necessarily
43:24
come up with things that would work, and I hear what you say about social media and influencing
43:30
and the rest of it, but translating an interest into, or rather an enthusiasm into teachable skills
43:38
are going to be at the very heart of this whole programme. But as you point out
43:43
nothing is going to help these children as things stand. So what is the harm in trying something new
43:47
Thank you, Jessica. Wow, this is a game of two halves, isn't it? This conversation
43:52
I'm not... Yeah, it's not just about jobs. I fully appreciate that, the way that the conversation sometimes sounds
44:02
because education is your passport to opportunity. But there's other things that education can give you
44:09
and I worry that we're losing sight of those. But when Jessica paints a picture like the one she just painted
44:14
I sound like someone sort of complaining about the quality of the deck chairs
44:20
on the Titanic, don't I? it's you know the ship is sinking it doesn't matter what kind of deck chairs you bring out
44:28
or how you arrange them on the deck we've got to try and keep the ship afloat before we start
44:32
faffing about with the deck chairs i don't know one benefit of a of a of an education of a certain
44:38
type is that you get to read some pg woodhouse which i think improves everybody's life i can't
44:42
imagine anybody reading pg woodhouse and not thinking that their life has been enriched as
44:46
the consequence. And I've got a lovely little quote from The Code of the Worcesters, which
44:50
was written in 1938 that could have been written today except in slightly fruitier language The only thing I haven decided yet is whether or not when I read it to you I attempt an accent I think I might but that why I not reading it yet That and because also Paul is in Sevenoaks Paul what would you like to say
45:08
Good morning, James. I just echo so many things that the last call has actually just said
45:15
My story is a little bit dated, but I think still relevant given the comments that other
45:21
callers have made. So I was a star pupil at junior school, went to
45:27
a large comprehensive in Bradford, completely a fish out of water, and just sunk
45:35
into the depths of the school system, became the naughty boy, and
45:43
at 14 was written off, was told that I could not come back
45:49
for A-levels. I'd been suspended numerous times and they just wanted me out. So I left at 15 with two O-levels
45:59
and ended up in construction for Liena, which is a common theme, where I enjoyed myself
46:07
but it's hard work and doesn't pay that much, certainly at the level I was at. My brother
46:12
had gone to grammar school and had become an accountant by then. And he had a fancy
46:18
white Ford Escort XR3i, which I quite like to look up. Living the dream
46:25
And so I thought, well, maybe I should give myself another chance, backed myself, went
46:31
to night school, got a job with the help of my sister in the civil service, and eventually
46:40
got myself into an intensive course to do accountancy, and became a chartered accountant
46:46
or fast forward through the system, became a chartered accountant, a bit of imposter syndrome
46:52
but battled that and rose through the system to become the global head of a business unit
46:59
at one of the big four global accounting firms and earned well into seven figures per year
47:08
doing that job and retired at 56. I really liked you until the end of that story, Paul
47:15
Sorry. So, you know, had I been funneled down a construction route or something like that at the age of 14, I might have grabbed it like a log in a..
47:31
I hear you. A live raft, yes. In a stream, yeah. But it would have been... And I would have probably enjoyed it
47:38
You've actually preempted my question then, because it wouldn't necessarily have... I mean, you would have been less rich
47:43
but would your life necessarily have been less rich? I think so because the work I did was in the restructuring arena
47:55
So I ended up saving dozens of viable businesses. And you found that incredibly fulfilling
48:05
And saved thousands of jobs. And there's no more fulfilling job for me
48:10
Than saving someone else's job. Than building something. So, you know, I still enjoy..
48:14
What would you say to 14-year-old you, just on the simple question, who's already thinking
48:20
and you were lucky, a variety of things that came along that helped you
48:23
but you're looking down the path of life and you're already thinking, that's not for me
48:28
that's not for the likes of me. You're already thinking, stay in your lane
48:32
And then you had an opportunity to get inside that young person's head
48:37
How would you phrase the advice that you should aim for the start
48:45
I've been back into schools, actually. I thought you might have done. I've had this kind of conversation
48:51
and I would say to people, forget about the subjects for a minute
48:59
Yeah. What do you enjoy? What do you want to be? What person do you want to be
49:05
Not what job do you want to have? What kind of person do you want to be
49:09
What interests you? And, you know, listen to that last caller. So many of those kids are sat there and nobody's talking to them
49:17
I just know. And nobody talked to me. Like, it was just easier to write me off than try and understand
49:23
So this whole story might be the opposite of what I thought it was at 10 o'clock this morning
49:28
It's not writing off 14-year-olds. It's actually under your ysis and some of the other callers
49:33
It's doing the polar opposite. I think so. but I think there's some really viable points
49:39
that have been made around expanding the curriculum. And how they have to do it
49:43
I think, you know, like for me, economics, even at the basic level
49:48
should be a part of the core curriculum, as should business studies
49:53
Yeah. Because, you know, in today's world, at least understanding how interest rates work
49:58
and how the economy works, you know, it's on the news every day. Yeah, and also a lot of people, including
50:03
and you'd think in my line of work, that the bar might be a bit higher. An awful lot of people don't really understand what's going on
50:09
I'm so glad you got through. I'm so glad we squeezed you in, but there is one thing I have to ask you
50:13
Don't worry, I'm not going to ask to borrow some money. Did you ever get the XR3i
50:19
I have a better car than that. It's Italian and it makes a very loud noise, yes
50:26
Was the company founded by someone called Enzo? It could be, yes
50:31
It's 11 o'clock. Nice one, Paul. James O'Brien on LBC It's four minutes after 11
50:37
it'd be a bit self-indulgent to take a vote on it but do not let me forget to read
50:41
to you a single paragraph from The Code of the Woosters by P.G. Woodhouse
50:45
The Woosters written in 1938 would you believe, around about the time
50:51
of course that the Daily Mail was offering full-throated support for the Blackshirts
50:55
and even for Adolf Hitler Plus a change and it speaks directly to some of the events
51:01
that have been happening in our... We talked about on the programme yesterday, children being encouraged to call for the deaths of refugees
51:08
A quick word on that, because I'm always struck by people who share tales of family fracture
51:15
and say, I've tried your tactics, James, and they don't work. Here's a really helpful thing to do
51:20
if you're dealing with somebody who is currently calling for other humans to be burnt to death or to be left to drown in the sea
51:27
Once people are persuaded to do that, Once people are encouraged to believe that, to want that, to articulate that, nobody gets to control where they go next
51:40
So what is the abiding line of conversations on this program about racism stroke Brexit
51:46
Oh, I don't mean you. Right? Oh, I don't mean you. First said to us, I think, by the daughter-in-law, the Polish daughter-in-law of a Brexit voter
51:55
who she called mum, if I remember the call correctly, voted Brexit to get rid of all the immigrants
52:01
She said, well, I'm one of the immigrants, mum. And mum said, oh, I don't mean you
52:06
And when you see children with loud hailers calling for refugees to be left to drown
52:12
or you see women being invited onto stage at Nigel Farage's parties
52:16
having called for human beings to be burnt alive in their beds, and you think, well, you know, it's only the people in the boats
52:22
it's the refugees I hate. James needs to get down off his high horse once the society allows this once it not anathema you know once people turning up to these protests
52:35
and they get jailed for attacking our police and then people say, well, that's a bit strict or that's a bit stiff
52:41
you don't get to control who they attack next. You don't get to control who they are going to decide next
52:48
deserves to die and publicly say so. That's the point, you see, for people like me
52:57
Oh, he only cares about the refugees. No, he cares about absolutely everybody, including you, you know
53:05
You call for people to be killed, then somebody might sit there thinking
53:09
well, you deserve to be killed as well, and you've created a world where we're allowed to call for people to be killed
53:14
whether it's a political figure or someone in a small boat. So it's not about picking a side
53:21
it's about recognizing that we're all on the same side and when you have people saying
53:27
burn them alive and then treated like folk heroes by daily telegraph journalists
53:33
like Alison Pearson and Liam Halligan or you have politicians calling for them to be
53:38
sunk in the sea and you have children calling for them to be left to drown
53:43
and you think oh no this is a conversation about refugees James this is a conversation about small boats James
53:48
oh we learned yesterday that it's not if you are of colour, it's a conversation about you
53:54
for huge numbers of people who have a slightly better grasp of the facts than people like Suella Braverman
54:00
But for the rest of us, it's a conversation about everybody. It's a conversation about the relationship between a society
54:06
and incitement to murder. And you can't have a society where incitement to murder is okay sometimes
54:16
You just can't. But guess what? We've got one. We've got one
54:23
I don't know when it happened. It's kind of crept up on us. We have created a society where incitement to murder
54:28
is not only okay sometimes, but it is to be applauded at those times
54:33
by people like Alison Pearson and Liam Halligan and loads of others as well
54:37
They just happened to be hosting the event on stage at the conference a year before a woman got beaten up
54:42
on the conference floor by so-called patriots. So that might help when you're talking about people
54:49
That might help. just to simply say, no, once it's okay in our society
54:55
to celebrate incitements to murder, where do they go next? Whose murder will we be calling for next with impunity
55:03
or with a round of applause at one of Nigel Farage's parties
55:07
Who will it be next? That's all. That helps. It helps me, at least
55:10
It's important to remember. And, of course, people will shout, why don't you care about this? The point is you care about everybody
55:15
What you don't do is respond to a crime according to the ethnicity of the culprit
55:20
it. You respond to a crime according to the severity of the crime. They should disgust
55:24
you equally. And if they don't, you've got a problem. I just wanted to share that because
55:32
I was haunted a bit by some of the people talking to me yesterday about how hard they
55:36
find it even to converse now with family members who've gone down the let's murder some humans
55:41
today route at the behest of various media figures and politicians. We're talking about
55:46
something completely different. Did you notice what happened at the end of the last hour? It very nearly turned into a motoring phone-in
55:53
When I was talking to Paul about his extraordinary journey from, if you like, a forgotten 14-year-old
55:59
to world-class accountant, and he mentioned the car that he got, and I presumed it was a Ferrari
56:06
so I happen to know that the founder of Ferrari was called Enzo. It nearly turned into a motoring phone-in
56:12
And now I'm flirting with one of the other things that are generally anathema on this programme
56:18
The things that could make the phones ring very easily, but are very, very rarely interesting conversations
56:24
It's not smart motorways, and it's not parking tickets. I think it was Clive who came up with this
56:31
I think Clive came up with this. You really can't make the phones ring, and you're sitting here
56:36
And, God, no one's ringing me. What am I going to do
56:39
What am I going to do? Well, I'm all right. I'm James. I'll do another monologue. But, you know, other people..
56:44
Is anyone feeling a bit poorly? Oh, three, four, five, six... Is anybody old out there feeling a bit poorly
56:50
0345 6060 973. That's not the phone-in. That's a joke. That's me being facetious
56:59
But what is going to constitute a conversation today? And the reason why I just said that stuff about
57:06
you don't get to control where they go next. The Spartans, for example, used to throw disabled babies off cliffs
57:13
You know, let them die too. You don't get to control where that goes next
57:17
And it is ironic, as a couple of you have pointed out, Craig most pithily, that the people calling for these human beings to drown in the channel are the same people who were shouting all lives matter a couple of years ago
57:27
Weird that, eh? But this is a conversation about people who are poorly
57:33
But it's also a conversation about where the target goes next, right
57:38
So even if we reduced immigration to zero, the distribution of wealth in this country would remain hideous
57:48
So all of the people who think that the reason why they are struggling is because of immigration, they would need to find somebody else to blame
57:56
And you can see it beginning to happen. And the most obvious people to blame are disabled people or unemployed people
58:04
So Kemi Bader not yesterday came out of the block saying, oh well, unemployed people, if they've been unemployed for X amount of time
58:09
then they won't be able to spend any of their money on cigarettes or gambling
58:16
OK, so that's nice, you're punishing people. Yeah, but it's a lifestyle choice, prove it
58:21
Well, I know someone who knows someone who definitely... Yeah, well, why are you punishing everybody because of this
58:27
So, disabled people and unemployed people. The so-called taxpayers' alliance, which is of course nothing of the kind
58:34
will be leading the line on stuff like this. so will the so-called Institute of Economic Affairs
58:38
secretly funded think tanks that essentially exist, or so-called think tanks that essentially exist
58:43
to promote the interests of their anonymous, very wealthy donors. That's not an opinion, that's counting
58:49
And they have succeeded in having media treat them like sort of unbiased academic insight providers
59:01
when they're nothing of the sort. They are secretly funded lobby groups, effectively
59:05
in representing the interests of their very wealthy secret funders. And they've done some research
59:11
which The Times has picked up and parroted, about people who've got non-specific back pain
59:19
So that's who you're supposed to be getting angry with today. Because the subtext here, they must be faking it
59:25
More than 52,000 people are claiming disability benefits for back pain with no specific cause, ysis shows
59:31
and of course in that 52,000 you've absolutely got someone who's gone into the GPs
59:39
like this oh, oh, ah oh, my back oh, doc, doctor oh, oh, you've got a sort of Jack Duckworth
59:46
I don't know why I just thought of Jack Duckworth but I just thought of Jack Duckworth off Coronation Street
59:51
whose daughter listened to the programme did you know that? it was one of the loveliest moments of the year
59:56
when I, I loved Jack Duckworth I mean, Bill Tarmey And Liz Dawn, who played Jack and Vera Duckworth, for me, are among the finest actors of the last hundred years
1:00:05
And I don't know if anyone's ever moved me quite as much as they did when Jack came into the sitting room and found Vera dead in a armchair
1:00:12
But I just thought of him. He's kind of like a malingerer. He was portrayed very much as a shirker
1:00:18
And he's someone you could easily imagine going to the doctors and pretending to have a bad back
1:00:24
and yeah, of course some people will do but, but, but, but, but, but
1:00:30
I buy this actually I think that an absolutely debilitating back pain
1:00:41
that has no obvious cause is both commonplace and serious like really, really serious
1:00:49
so this is for the first and probably last time in my career
1:00:53
This is me asking you how bad your back pain is. Genuinely, because I just know how this works
1:00:59
You'll allow me, I think, to claim a degree of expertise in how the very, very wealthy manage to cede public discourse
1:01:07
to distract attention from the unfair distribution of wealth and their own obscene riches
1:01:14
and focus instead, if you're looking for a receptacle for your dissatisfaction
1:01:20
immigration is going to disappear soon despite the best efforts of the Daily Mail and others
1:01:24
to pretend that things are going, are rocketing. It's actually plummeting. More on that later
1:01:29
And it is going to move. The spotlight, the target is going to move
1:01:33
And it's going to move to unemployed people and disabled people. And it's going to move fast
1:01:40
And I honestly think that unspecified back pain is probably a huge and real problem
1:01:50
a huge and real problem. And I just want you to tell me
1:01:55
I just want you to prove it, okay? Look, some people are going to fake. I know they are
1:01:59
But again, if you can't prove that they're faking it and you can't prove that it's real
1:02:05
you either have to accept that the fakers are the price you pay for looking after the real people
1:02:10
That's how society works. Where else would you punish absolutely everybody with a genuine grievance
1:02:17
because some people are pretending to have a genuine grievance? it's insane but it's also you know right-wing politics in a blinking nutshell so i i've i've
1:02:26
got i don't know if he'd let me tell you who it is but i've got a colleague who um recently took
1:02:32
to hobbling around the office and couldn't exercise someone who loves running so obviously
1:02:36
not me uh couldn't exercise and i got another colleague when i was on newspapers who was my
1:02:41
age in there in the 20s i think or early 30s who couldn't come to work couldn't barely get out of
1:02:48
bed just almost overnight their back broke they didn't literally break but it ceased to work
1:02:57
they were in unspeakable agony almost all the time and i think it's real
1:03:04
and the fact that a doctor can't actually identify what it is
1:03:09
doesn't make it any less real to me so that's what i want to do but remember i need to know
1:03:16
how big it is, how debilitating it is. I just want to recognise, if you like
1:03:23
that just because it isn't specific doesn't mean it isn't real. Non-specific back pain
1:03:31
as an absolute curse in your life. And ideally, you're someone who five years ago or ten years
1:03:40
ago, you'd have read this headline and you'd have gone, oh, flipping heck, what next? Nosebleeds
1:03:45
good god you're getting signed off work for car and yet i've come close to it myself
1:03:51
i just had like what the heck is wrong with my back everything hurts sorted it out i may tell
1:03:58
you why if you're very very good but i want i want you to tell me about how completely
1:04:03
crippling this can be all right the number you need as always this is really all i'm asking it's
1:04:11
the easiest phone-in we've ever done, but obviously you can't contribute to it if you're not
1:04:15
speaking from a place of personal experience. But you are being, we are
1:04:19
all being encouraged to think this is an exercise in lead swinging and all a load of rubbish
1:04:23
I completely believe that unspecified back pain can ruin your life and completely destroy your ability
1:04:31
to work. I just want your help improving it. 0345 6060 973
1:04:37
is the number you need. James O'Brien on LBC. It is 20 minutes after 11, and I'm obviously not suggesting that any children with loud
1:04:45
hailers are going to start let them die, start chanting let them die at people with unspecific
1:04:49
back pain. But it's part of the same graph. It's part of the same spectrum. You are being encouraged today by the same people that encouraged you to hate immigration
1:04:58
and to vote Brexit, to look at people with nonspecific back pain and think that they
1:05:02
are all liars, and therefore to hate them. And somewhat oddly, but you know me, if something tickles my fancy, then we'll do it on the show
1:05:10
somewhat oddly today, I kind of want to stick up for people with non-specific back pain
1:05:14
because I was nearly one of them. I think I told you about, I went up to, I think it
1:05:20
was filed up near Blackpool to watch a football game, and I came back, I could barely get
1:05:24
off the train. I was absolutely bent double with agony, and I thought, oh, it's because
1:05:28
I had a big wallet in my back pocket, so my hips have been uneven, so I moved my, it wasn't
1:05:33
that, it was a big wallet, it was full of receipts, mate, it wasn't full of money, I wish. Receipts and dry cleaning tickets. That's not exactly living the struggle, is it? Having
1:05:42
dry cleaning tickets in your wallet. But it wasn't that. And this is very, very boring
1:05:48
but it turns out I'm a side sleeper. So I was flirting with crippling back pain. There
1:05:54
were days when if I had to stand on the tube, I was this close to sitting on the floor
1:06:00
So if I'd had a job in retail like I used to have, I'd have been absolutely scuppered
1:06:03
I would not have been able to stay on my feet for eight hours a day. And then I bought this special pillow for pregnant women
1:06:10
that you kind of wrap your knee over when you're sleeping, and it means you're level, and it's fixed
1:06:19
And I've started doing a little bit of yoga. So now, if the bus is coming around one corner
1:06:22
when I'm coming around the other corner, and I break into a trot for the bus, I'm like Linford Christie, lads
1:06:27
I'm serious. Well, all right, maybe not Linford Christie, but I'm moving at a rate of knots
1:06:32
and I'm not feeling any pain. you know you get into your 50s and you're not really looking after yourself and everything hurts
1:06:37
a bit and so i've sorted it but i was just down that path far enough to know that if i had my old
1:06:44
job in the shop from 157 years ago i would not have been able to do it because an hour standing
1:06:51
up on the tube and i was in in proper pain at the end of it so that would be like one or two on a
1:06:56
scale of one to ten if you're a 10 of course you should be signed off sick and of course you should
1:06:59
be getting pip, he says, waiting to be proved wrong. Minnie is
1:07:03
in Camden. Minnie, what made you pick up the phone? Oh, hi, Jane. First time caller
1:07:08
Here, with you anyway. You're very welcome. I mean, I didn't think this was the first time you'd used a telephone
1:07:15
Yeah. So my experience was I had debilitating back pain sort of 15 years ago
1:07:22
For eight years, I was going to the doctors and they kept telling me that the pain was in my head there was something wrong with me I ended up having to have an MRI it was an osteopath that said you need to have you know something serious is going on with you
1:07:35
And basically had an MRI the next day I was on the operating table having an emergency back surgery and six months later a total hip replacement
1:07:43
So it wasn't all in my head, the pain, and it was... And they literally told you that, are you sure
1:07:48
I'm not doubting you, but they'd say, well, we can't see anything wrong, it must be psychosomatic or something like that
1:07:53
Yeah, yeah. It didn't help that I had scars from a previous life on my arms
1:07:59
Right. So they maybe didn't trust you. I think that they, and I certainly didn't trust them
1:08:04
Wow. And it was a long time. And it took me five years from the first surgery
1:08:09
to actually claim benefits for myself. And I had to go to court
1:08:13
I got to take the DWP to court. It was really humiliating
1:08:18
It was, you know, I'm still on benefits. I'm very grateful for benefits
1:08:22
I've just had five days on the floor, actually, because my back just went again
1:08:25
Oh, no. Yeah, so I've got a lot going on with my back. I've got two hips now
1:08:30
Two artificial hips, just to be clear, because having two hips is a bit dog bites, man
1:08:36
Yeah, yeah. And if you had three, we'd have a story, wouldn't we
1:08:42
If you had three, we'd have a story. So, when it, I mean, the idea of you being able to do a normal job of work
1:08:49
obviously went out the window about the time you back went. I was working for Age UK at the time
1:08:53
Oh, were you? Yeah, I just couldn't walk. And I think the hardest thing was not being believed, you know
1:08:59
I mean, and my youngest son was, I think he was about 11 or 12 at the time
1:09:04
And it was really difficult, you know. I was a single parent. So, yeah, things were really difficult
1:09:10
And I think that not being believed, not taken seriously, and that there was some serious damage going on, you know
1:09:16
Who do you think said this? So the Times, when they print this bill, you have to find a politician to contribute
1:09:22
so they go, who's the biggest idiot we know? Oh, let's ring him. Who do you think said it
1:09:26
It's not fair on taxpayers who are being forced to pay for this and it's not fair on those in genuine need either
1:09:31
Just presuming that these figures are evidence of widespread fraud. As part of our plan to cut the welfare..
1:09:37
Guess who it was? It's a garage. No, nearly dishonest Bob. It was dishonest Bob Jenner
1:09:42
I mean, honestly, it's like a Rubik's Cube. No, that's quite difficult. I can't do Rubik's Cubes
1:09:47
It's like a dot-to-dot. Join the dots, isn't it? You know, up pops the lobby group, calling itself a think tank
1:09:54
Up pops the so-called research. Up pops the Reform UK MP. Up pops the hatred
1:09:58
And already, as Minnie describes, people in this situation are not being believed
1:10:04
That is what it's designed to do, to create further scepticism and further incredulity
1:10:10
What's it like to be in absolute agony and to be told, as you will be now, increasingly
1:10:16
because there's a reason why this is in the news today, that you are either swinging the lead or making it up
1:10:20
or both? Guys in Hailsham. Guy, what would you like to say? Yeah, I want to talk about
1:10:24
back pain, because I've had non-specific back pain. Fraud start, fraud start
1:10:30
Skyver, Skyver on his Bob Jenricks here, he wants to give you a good old dressing down
1:10:35
So, I yes, so I became, I worked in an office like you, worked in London
1:10:41
up on the tube, absolute agony, thought I could never be doing an office job
1:10:46
So I actually retrained as a physiotherapist, because I wanted to understand
1:10:52
I've been to physios. I've been to doctors. No one could fix it. No one could tell
1:10:56
me what was going on. So I retrained, became a physiotherapist to truly
1:11:00
understand back pain. And I don't have back pain anymore. And there is a big..
1:11:08
People don't like the Heades. People want to put a label on it. People want to be able to say
1:11:12
I've got a burst disc. I've got this. I've got that. Because we're very unsympathetic in our
1:11:18
society but there is a huge a huge psychological um what we call essential pain controlled element
1:11:27
to back pain okay that doesn't mean it's in your head it just means that it's complex i uh i work
1:11:34
with a wonderful young lady called eleanor i don't know if you ever heard me mention her name
1:11:38
but she was she was unaware that we evolved as quadrupeds rather than bipeds yeah and that is a
1:11:46
I mean, we are not designed to walk around on two legs. We're supposed to be scurrying around on all fours
1:11:51
as Keith often does, actually, around the studio. But that, I mean, you talk about unspecified back pain
1:11:58
and you remember that we actually evolved to walk on four legs, not two. It ceases to be quite such a mystery, I think
1:12:05
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We shouldn't be sitting at desks all day, but you also need to consider, you know
1:12:11
when you are a bit stressed, your back's going to tense up. If you've got some anxiety, that's the natural reaction
1:12:17
Is it? That makes sense. And that feeds into pain, and then pain feeds into muscular tension
1:12:22
How? And did you fix yourself as well? Eventually, but a lot of it was about education
1:12:28
So, yes, I understood that just because you're feeling pain, it doesn't necessarily mean harm in terms of your back is destroyed and fragile
1:12:37
No, of course not. Okay? And they're not mutually exclusive. You have to understand the complexity of it
1:12:46
So a big part, what I do with my clients, what I have done, is about education
1:12:51
Unfortunately, a lot of people don't want to hear that there's nothing structurally wrong with their back, per se
1:13:00
And that's the challenge that you have. Oh, really? Yeah. They want you to give it a name and give them a treatment
1:13:07
Yeah, they want a name and a treatment because that's as we are in society
1:13:11
that everyone will then say, well, that's okay, you're not a scrounger because you've got a prolapse disc
1:13:17
But if you've got non-specific back pain, oh, well, you're just making it up there, aren't you
1:13:21
You're a scrounger. And here's the point. I presume it would be impossible
1:13:26
even for someone like you to prove that someone was malingering. I mean, short of creeping up behind them with a balloon
1:13:32
and popping it and watching them judge. Do you see what I mean? Yeah, yeah
1:13:37
I mean, I did know a consultant that used to press on people's head
1:13:40
and he said, does that hurt? And if they said, yes, he might think that
1:13:45
But, you know, there are small elements of people that may be trying it on
1:13:50
but there's a huge amount of people with non-specific back pain in agony
1:13:54
In absolute pain. And that's why when dishonest Bob Jenrick says this isn't fair on those in genuine need
1:14:00
he's being incredibly disingenuous because this makes life much harder for those in genuine need
1:14:05
It increases the scepticism and it paints everybody as a fraudster. Exactly
1:14:09
I think, 100%. What a career change, that is, eh? I bet it's more... I don't know what you were doing before
1:14:14
but I sense that you love what you're doing now. Yeah, absolutely
1:14:18
I do. Yeah, I do. I can help people. It was a really..
1:14:22
I was lucky to have the opportunity to do it because education was funded then
1:14:26
and I've also got a bursary, but that's another... That was the last phone-in, really
1:14:31
That was the last hour of the show, but I do like it when the two planets seem to collide
1:14:36
Thank you, Guy. Richard's here to speak for the sort of idiots
1:14:40
Good idea, James. Have a phone in for people with back pain that is debilitating. I wonder how many will call in to admit to playing the system
1:14:46
but in your world, if everyone that calls is genuine, then everyone must be genuine. No, mate
1:14:50
If you can't prove who is faking it, then you have two choices Either you punish everybody including those who are not faking it or you accept that the price you pay for decency compassion and people like Guy is the suspicion
1:15:07
the unprovable suspicion that some people are faking it. So you, with back pain, with your
1:15:13
position, would be ruling yourself out of receiving treatment or support for it. But, you know
1:15:20
at least you're not the stupidest person getting in touch today. That's Callum, who says, oh, this is really nice, James, you haven't been banging on about reform for a while
1:15:27
You've been having a really nice phone-in about, oh, no, you just, yeah, I'm talking about a story that your mate, dishonest Bob Jenrick
1:15:34
has used to attack people with back pain. And you're too daft to realise, mate
1:15:39
But don't worry, because tuning in every day, and bit by bit, day by day, I will lead you into the light
1:15:47
For free. Here's Dominic Ellis with your headlines. Safeguarding campaigners have told LBC
1:15:51
victims have been grossly failed by the decision to bail a paedophile to his flat overlooking a
1:15:57
playground. Zafir Dogen was jailed for 28 months yesterday for taking photos of women and girls
1:16:03
before using AI to turn them into nude images. An inquest into the death of three-year-old Noah
1:16:09
Woods has heard that he left a play area through a gap in the fence. The toddler went missing and
1:16:13
was found in a lake following a huge surge in Brantham in Suffolk earlier this month
1:16:18
And Dovid Powys Police has revealed that it's been targeted in a cyber attack
1:16:22
The force says it caused disruption to non-emergency systems and could have led to staff information being compromised
1:16:29
LBC weather. Rain will linger in northern and central parts of the UK through today
1:16:33
Dryer and warm in the south-east, a high of 26 degrees. James O'Brien on LBC
1:16:40
It's 11.34. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. where a couple of you are pointing out
1:16:47
that this is designed to introduce what could be loosely described as collective punishment
1:16:53
So here are 100 people with back pain and we have managed to identify
1:16:57
or we suspect that 2 or 10 or even 20 of them are faking it
1:17:01
Therefore, we're going to take away the medical support, the financial support that all 100 people receive
1:17:06
Up pops Robert Generic. What should we call him? Dishonest Bob or Robert Generic? Or is it too childish
1:17:12
Should we be moving beyond childish nicknames and embracing a brave new world of seriousness and cerebral activity
1:17:19
I don't know. But, I mean, they are, like, flipping... I don't know what they're like
1:17:23
What are they like? They're like Pavlov's dogs, aren't they? Here's someone on benefits. Fake
1:17:27
And then the worst lie that people like generic use, it's the idea that it's not fair on the people in genuine need
1:17:35
The whole point about this condition is how hard it is to prove that someone is in genuine..
1:17:38
Well, in that case, we'll have to take it away from everybody. And look, it's coming. I've been saying it for a couple of years
1:17:43
Since Keir Starmer decided to triple down upon reducing immigration, I've been telling you to keep an eye out for where it goes next, haven't I
1:17:55
Did we ever do the Mystic Gym thing? I think we did, didn't we
1:17:59
Can I have it now, please, Keith? Is it available? Or has it fallen into the bin
1:18:07
Mystic Gym. So I said to you, as immigration plummets, which it will
1:18:12
they will do two things. They will put heaven and earth into pretending that it isn't
1:18:17
and we're seeing an awful lot of that around at the moment but they will encourage you to start hating other people
1:18:23
They will need, because of course, if you don't start hating your neighbour
1:18:27
whether it's because of their country of origin or whether it's because of their welfare claim
1:18:33
or whether it's because of their unspecified back pain if you don't start hating your neighbour
1:18:38
you might actually start having a problem with the people who really are laughing all the way to the bank
1:18:44
they will start moving it along. And now we've got to people with back pain. And it's the same group
1:18:50
It's the right-wing media. It's the Tufton Street collective. And it is designed to make you hate people
1:18:56
who you really shouldn't be hating. And I could probably take a call from someone who said
1:19:01
well, no, actually, Jez, I know someone who's faked it. They laugh about it down the pub. And to which the response is, that's terrible
1:19:06
You should report them or film them. I love those stories about people making claims to insurers who are caught riding horses through the Serengeti or something
1:19:15
I actually really like those stories. It's kind of detective work, isn't it
1:19:19
So report them. Film them. Send it in. No one should be swinging the lead
1:19:23
But let's not pretend that one person swinging the lead is somehow a justification for punishing everybody who's not
1:19:30
And that's where we're going. And I told you that we would. And that's why they call me Mystic Jim
1:19:34
On the other front... Oh! Whoa! Mystic Gin. Wow, that happened, like, organically
1:19:42
Keith didn't press any buttons, or... That was, like, magic. That's because I'm mystic
1:19:48
And then the front page of the Daily Mail today. Labour's army of migrants. 83,279 small boat arrivals since general election
1:19:56
So they're literally sitting in a room at the Daily Mail and going, Christ, these numbers are coming down at a rate of knots, lads
1:20:01
What are we going to do? Well, let's add them all up. Let's pick a completely random threshold
1:20:06
how about when Labour got into power and completely ignore the fact that year on year
1:20:12
or indeed compared to the Tories, these numbers are coming down at a rate of knots
1:20:18
Whatever you do, don't mention the fact that we deport twice as many people who came here by a small boat
1:20:25
And let's pretend that the biggest number, which is what happened on Wednesday, the largest number to cross the channel this year
1:20:30
let's pretend that's the largest number ever, which I've heard some members of the media doing
1:20:35
So at the moment, the absolute, and this is the weirdest thing that's happening in our country at the moment
1:20:40
it's even weirder than the black nappies turning up outside police stations. The weirdest thing is that the people who have created an environment where you are encouraged all the time to get really, really angry
1:20:54
about immigration in general and small boats in particular, they are the ones desperate for you not to notice that it's plummeting, that it's coming down at a rate of knots
1:21:04
and today's front page is a masterclass in that sick process. Absolutely extraordinary
1:21:12
Let's pick an entire... And also, can we think of some ogy that distracts people from the fact that the numbers are plummeting
1:21:19
How about saying it's bigger than the British Army? Yeah, that works. So let's pick a completely random and meaningless threshold
1:21:27
So when Labour got elected, and then let's take that number without mentioning that it's coming down annually
1:21:33
it's coming down in every measurable way at a rate of knots, 83 and a bit thousand
1:21:39
And how can we make that sound awful? Let's say it's bigger than the army. It's bigger than the army
1:21:45
And it started on a random date some years ago. Brackets, when Labour got elected, close brackets
1:21:50
don't mention that the bloke who is our star columnist was Prime Minister when the numbers were five times higher
1:21:55
I'll say that again, because there may even be people reading the Daily Mail who don't realise
1:21:59
The numbers were three or four, five times higher when Boris Johnson was Prime Minister for Immigration in general
1:22:09
And he's their star columnist, reportedly on £1 million a year. Probably part of the reason why poor old Richard Littlejohn
1:22:16
has had one of his columns taken away, because they're having to give all the money to Boris Johnson
1:22:20
That could be the reason, or it could be because Nadine Dorries has got more readers or it could be because management finally got tired of him boasting about the fact that he writes about things he knows absolutely nothing about Like me But I don know It could be all of the above it could be none of the above
1:22:36
But the poor fella has seen 50% of his journalistic output, um, binned, uh, overnight
1:22:42
Thoughts and prayers, please. 11.40 is the time. Shall we get back to unspecified back pain
1:22:47
I think we probably should. Charlie's in Southwark. Charlie, what would you like to say? Hello, James
1:22:52
Hello, Charlie. I'm calling. I bet you can't even remember what we're talking about after that little outburst
1:22:59
Yeah, so as I was saying to your producers, I'm 27. Okay
1:23:04
I would say when I first started working at 18, I used to get up in the morning and I would walk to work, and I loved it
1:23:10
And I walked back from work, and I loved it. I'm 27, and I now feel I hate walking
1:23:17
And I know I shouldn't. But I find that no matter what I'm doing
1:23:21
even if I'm driving I've got back pain and I'm like I'm 27
1:23:26
I shouldn't have this It's not quite debilitating yet you can carry on
1:23:30
you can do your job still Yeah I don't require assistance or like a walking aid or
1:23:35
I can still walk but I don't have the same enjoyment of walking
1:23:39
as I used to back seven years ago But you're on a
1:23:43
you're on a graph I reckon it's unlikely to get better anytime soon it's probably going to get worse
1:23:47
and there will come a point where it limits what you can and can't do and yet have you been to the doctors
1:23:51
about this specifically no I've had chiropractic treatment when I had shoulder pain
1:23:57
I brought it up to people and most people would just sort of boss it off and go oh you know it's
1:24:05
you know you're just growing up and but it's I'm like I'm 27 I shouldn't have this and I feel an
1:24:12
element of guilt because I'm like am I doing something wrong am I not active enough and I just
1:24:18
find that there's not really much advice around what you should do
1:24:22
No, and of course if it does get worse then you'll be accused of faking. What do you
1:24:26
do for a living? I'm a police officer. Oh lordy. Yeah, I know, I get that a lot. Well, you can't, no, I love
1:24:32
police officers, but I mean, you can't not walk as a copper. Well, I mean, I suppose
1:24:36
you could get a desk job, but it is usually quite a big part of the beat, isn't it? Yeah, I wouldn't want to do that
1:24:40
It's, you know, as I was saying to your producers, you know, a big part of police
1:24:44
in the UK at least is, as we are known for, being on the beat, walking
1:24:48
and I know back seven years ago, the idea of walking and getting paid for it
1:24:53
would have been a godsend for me. Now, it's like knowing where you're carrying
1:24:58
in excess of 15 kilograms worth of equipment and then you're walking... Do you think that might be part of it
1:25:03
Do you think that might be part of it? I think it hasn't helped
1:25:07
I think it's an aggravating factor. Do I think it's the root cause? No. Well, we don't know what the root cause is
1:25:12
No, we don't. Do you sleep on your side? I do. right okay what i want you to do yeah for a week is get have you got a big pillow at home
1:25:24
have you got like a if it's the pillow technique i've i've been doing that for years no come off
1:25:29
it really properly like a proper one like a yoga bolster i will get like a proper thick pillow
1:25:35
and then i will wrap whatever so if i'm laying on my left side i'll wrap my right leg around the
1:25:40
pillow. I can't sleep without a pillow under my legs. Oh, so that's not actually helping
1:25:47
No, it gives me that element of comfort, but to say that it does
1:25:52
anything in terms of waking up... Because it changed my life, and it changed the life of the
1:25:56
colleague that I was telling you about earlier, who was hobbling around the office like
1:26:01
um, I don't know, like a hobbly thing, and they all laughed
1:26:04
when I said, what you need is this, and I told him what pillow to order. So you're just using a normal
1:26:08
pillow, are you? Uh, yeah, I use those, you've got those sleep night ones
1:26:14
It's nothing fancy. You need to get yourself the things that pregnant women use
1:26:19
Yeah. And me. And my very butch colleague, who probably wouldn't thank me for revealing that I put him onto this
1:26:28
I reckon it's worth doing. Now, look it up online. They're not cheap, I grant you
1:26:33
Or a yoga bolster. You know, a yoga bolster would probably do the trick as well
1:26:37
Thank you, mate. And take care. It's a bit, you know, it's not the most important conversation we've ever had, but it's part of the most important conversations that we ever have
1:26:47
It is evidence of where the spotlight is going to go next
1:26:53
And John in Orpington is here to prove the point. 781 illegals arrived on Wednesday alone, James
1:26:59
Whatever statistics you manipulate, it doesn't feel like the numbers are plummeting. I mean, what do you do with people like John
1:27:08
So 781 people arrived on Wednesday, John, right? So how many days are there in a year
1:27:14
Yeah? 365, right? So you take all the days, John, yeah? And you add them all together
1:27:21
and you come up with a total number of people that are crossing the English Channel in small boats
1:27:26
because the people you vote for shut down all the safe and legal routes
1:27:29
And you add them all up over a year and then you compare them to the previous year
1:27:35
Or if that's too complicated for you, You add them all up until September the 25th in a year
1:27:40
which is this year. And then you compare it to all of the crossings
1:27:45
all of the people, all of the numbers from the year to September the 25th last year
1:27:49
And then you compare the two, John. And if the number for this year
1:27:54
is 40-plus percent lower than the number for last year, then the numbers are plummeting, John
1:28:02
Do you see it now? Or do you want me to explain it again using words of only one syllable
1:28:07
Because I've got to be honest with you, mate, I'm good, but I'm not sure I'm that good. I don't think I could do it entirely in words of one syllable
1:28:14
Shall I try? Shall I try? Okay. So, John, if there is a..
1:28:24
Well, how can I say number in a word of one syllable, Keith? Can we think of a word for number
1:28:30
Some. If there is a sum of folk, one day, you need to add up all the days
1:28:43
and all the folks for one year. Then take that sum and the sum of the year just gone
1:28:58
and work out if the sum this year is more big or more small than the sum last year
1:29:12
and by how much? And if the sum this year is much more low than the sum last year
1:29:26
you can say, see, you can see that the sum has..
1:29:38
And I'm breaking out of monosyllables now, John, but I'm pretty confident that you're with me
1:29:44
Plummeted. And that's not an opinion, mate. That's counting. James O'Brien on LBC
1:29:51
Can I just say it myself? Can I just say it myself? I've got..
1:29:55
Oh, for heaven's sake. Really? Really? OK, apparently I shouldn't be giving out medical advice on the radio
1:30:04
I didn't think I was. I just suggested that if you've got a bad back and you sleep on your side, then you should get a..
1:30:10
What's that? You're not going to... The advice offered in this hour is for guidance only
1:30:16
You should always seek your own independent medical opinion. OK. Can I just say, though, that..
1:30:23
The advice offered in this hour is for guidance only. You should always seek your own independent medical opinion
1:30:29
Keith, this is my show, mate. Right? And I feel that I owe it to my listeners to tell them that if you are..
1:30:35
The advice offered in this hour is for guidance only. You should always seek your own independent medical opinion
1:30:42
Buy a pregnancy pillow! It's 11.52. The advice offered in this hour is for guidance only
1:30:49
You should always seek your own independent medical opinion. What's that from normally
1:30:53
What is that? Where did you get... Oh, the world. The world
1:30:57
Mark's in painting in Devon. And Mark, what made you pick up the phone? I just had to call in after hearing about the back pain
1:31:04
So I'll tell you my story. I'm a puppeteer. We have spoke before
1:31:08
Of course we have, yes. I'm able to do the show. But like five years ago, walking the dog
1:31:14
I felt like somebody walloped me in the lower back with a hammer. The pain spread out to the hips
1:31:19
And I couldn't move at all. Out of nowhere? Out of nowhere? Absolutely out of nowhere
1:31:24
Very active before that. It was almost like, the only way I can describe it, It's like an engine running out of oil
1:31:29
I just seized up. I couldn't move. Wow. What happened next? I mean, you sought help
1:31:35
I mean, you had to move at some point. You did sort of get some mobility back. Or did you sort of crawl home
1:31:40
Baby steps. I was walking the dog into the woods. So I had to literally lie down on a bench for about 20 minutes
1:31:45
I managed to hobble down to me van, get back, get to the doctor
1:31:51
Well, phone the doctor up. They said it was sciatica, which it wasn't. Um, so since then, I was, uh, referred to the back specialist who said it's probably my hips
1:32:01
The hip specialist said it's realistically probably my back. Then, wear and tear and arthritis, but there was nothing that showed up in the x-ray
1:32:10
So unspecified back pain. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it just affected everything
1:32:16
It's horrible. I live on top of a hill, so I can't leave the house without driving
1:32:21
Why not? Um, because I can't walk back up it. Oh, sorry
1:32:24
You mean because of the back pain? Yeah. I thought you were saying because of the hill
1:32:30
but it's because of the hill plus the back pain. I mean, you could roll down it
1:32:34
but you'd have a struggle getting back up it again. Very true. And I have to rely on people
1:32:39
With the show, my son, who's 14, he comes with me as often as he can to help me set up
1:32:46
But it has caused a lot of mental problems. I just feel useless, even though I'm able to do stuff
1:32:52
What I was able to do in a day now takes me about a week, if that makes sense
1:32:56
No, it really does. And the doctors have not found any, they can't tell you what it is
1:33:01
No. Even an MRI, you said, I think. Yeah, the MRI showed up an impinged nerve and disc bulge
1:33:07
but the consultant disputed that. So what I've actually done after this summer
1:33:11
because we had obviously nice weather and worked well on the beach
1:33:16
I've got an appointment on Wednesday with a private hospital to see
1:33:20
because I just want a diagnosis then I can actually target what's going on
1:33:24
and you know and I know that the way that this research and quotes is
1:33:29
or quotes ysis and quotes is offered up today we are supposed to come away thinking that
1:33:35
everybody like you is making it up is malingering, is faking it
1:33:39
it's hard as well because it's unspecified so you know the temptation to disbelieve you
1:33:43
is real yeah I mean I can move stuff around but it's when I'm walking
1:33:48
I am loading up the van is a nightmare in the morning if I'm going to go out to work
1:33:56
Yeah, I think also with the amount of people they keep on saying about the number of people unemployed
1:34:01
people like me, even though I'm self-employed, I'd gladly go and do a couple of days' work
1:34:06
so I could keep my business going but actually work as well. And it just winds me up because I'm neurodivergent, so I have to keep doing stuff on and on and on
1:34:18
and I can't sort of sit down and not do stuff. That's hugely frustrating. When's your next gig
1:34:24
Have you got any gigs coming up? I've actually got one tomorrow up in a place called Colleton
1:34:29
Where's that? Not far off of Horneton in Devon. Oh, lovely stuff
1:34:34
Okay, well, good luck with it. Remind people what you're called. I'm Poulton Puppets of Painting
1:34:39
Poulton Puppets of Painting. We like an alliteration, don't we, Mark? We do
1:34:43
Poulton Puppets of Painting. Get yourself up to Colleton to see Poulton Puppets of Painting tomorrow
1:34:47
and if Mark's looking help him will you with his boxes, help him load the van up
1:34:54
if you're there will you they are pretty good I'm sure they are but you know
1:34:58
the effort that's been put into making us all turn on each other
1:35:02
has now extended to puppeteers from Paynton, Adams in Wrexham Adam what would you like to say
1:35:07
Hi Ginge, several years ago well during lockdown actually just before I had severe back pain
1:35:15
couldn't move very active I was in my late 30s then I was hiking at the gym
1:35:21
playing football playing basketball so very active but I just had this
1:35:24
back pain like de-abilitate sorry de-abilitating out of nowhere just came out of nowhere
1:35:30
or did it creep up on you? well it kind of it was slow building if you like yes
1:35:34
and then we got to lockdown I wasn't furloughed so I was working through lockdown
1:35:40
but working from home right but I got to the point where my back pain got so severe
1:35:45
but I was working out of my bed. I couldn't get out of bed. So going from being, you know, active, very active
1:35:52
very whatever, relatively fit, to not barely being able to get out of bed
1:35:56
with my wife having to help me out of bed pretty much every day over the space of maybe three, four, five months
1:36:03
Just out of nowhere, yeah. And it was unspecified? Unspecified, yeah, unspecified
1:36:10
So obviously during that time you couldn't just nip to your GP. No, of course not
1:36:13
anyone you know everything was done online on video calls i did end up having to go into hospital
1:36:19
during this time um where i was essentially um put down to my underpants and a mask right um and
1:36:26
paraded around an operating room um with you know doctors trying to figure out what was wrong with
1:36:32
me and they couldn't find anything medically wrong with me at all um so yeah it kind of put you know
1:36:38
it was obviously a stressful time as it was i wasn't able to get out and walk as most people
1:36:43
would so you know i was feeling very down about myself etc yes um but all during this time um i
1:36:48
i was like i said i was working but it was a job i didn't really enjoy it was quite stressful
1:36:53
especially in the things we were in did you have a colleague who kept playing out medical
1:36:57
disclaimers when you were trying to talk yeah something like that yeah well i feel your pain
1:37:03
mate i really do um so anyway during this period i actually got offered another job okay um i was
1:37:09
headhunted through LinkedIn. So I didn't apply for it. I found this job, obviously I had an
1:37:16
interview via Teams or whatever, Skype, whatever you're using and etc. I got the job and within
1:37:23
the month notice period I needed to quit one job to the other My backing disappeared So it was stress Stress 100 And actually he said that didn he The lad who retrained as a physiotherapist earlier
1:37:35
said that it's one of the places that seizes up. It's the back. It's what will go
1:37:40
Absolutely. I wouldn't have believed it. If someone would have said it was stress, I would have laughed at them
1:37:44
Speaking of believing, speaking of believing, five years ago, would you have believed you
1:37:51
No, absolutely not. No, but what I mean is, would you have thought that someone saying
1:37:55
oh, I can't get out of bed, I can't do this, the doctors can't find anything wrong with me, would you have found it easy to believe that they were lying
1:38:01
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, unless it happened to myself. Yeah, it's one of them
1:38:06
But I went back to the hospital, they saw me, they're like, wow, there's nothing wrong with you
1:38:09
such a quick improvement. And she wanted to put me in a medical journal. Now, I don't know if that's been published or anything
1:38:15
but the whole thing, she'd never seen anything like it, and the quick recovery and everything
1:38:19
So by the time I started my new job in four weeks, that black pain had eradicated it
1:38:24
gone as if I'd never had it. I can see why she wanted to put you in a
1:38:28
medical journal, because the medical journal is what you offer up in opposition
1:38:32
to some Herberts from Tufton Street claiming that there's 50-odd thousand people and they've all got unspecific
1:38:38
back pain and we can't afford, whereas actually you go, well, here's someone, here's a story
1:38:42
it's true, deal with it. That's it. I love it. Well, nice one
1:38:46
mate. While you're here, I've just got a tiny little bit of advice for you. Have you ever thought of
1:38:52
The advice offered in this hour is for guidance only. You should always seek your own independent medical opinion
1:39:00
It's 12 noon. Sorry, James, somebody spoke over you then. Yeah, you're telling me, mate
1:39:05
It's coming up, it's just gone 12 noon. I couldn't believe what I want to do next
1:39:12
You can tell it's Friday. This Mamdani dude in New York, right, he's the real deal, I think
1:39:19
I think that's the problem, isn't it, with being progressive. is that he'd get hopes up and then another fascist comes along
1:39:24
and just wins an election and you think, oh, well, it was nice while it lasted, let them drown
1:39:29
But he, I mean, he's extraordinary. Netanyahu yesterday sounding like a drunk in a pub
1:39:34
just literally attacking everybody. People getting up and leaving the United Nations Congress
1:39:38
at a rate of knots, obviously, because there's an international arrest warrant out for the man
1:39:43
But he just took to the stage and started attacking everybody. Mamdani, however, dot, dot, dot
1:39:49
James O'Brien on LBC. 12.04 is the time. I don't know if you were listening to Mystery Hour yesterday
1:39:56
I will do that P.G. Woodhouse thing. I've just lost it temporarily. There we go. I found it again
1:40:00
I'll do that P.G. Woodhouse thing because it's so lovely. Right on the money of the current situation
1:40:07
And yet he wrote it in 1938. And I'm going to try and do it in a P.G. Woodhouse-style accent as well
1:40:12
because it's Friday. Why not? But this is quite a Friday-feeling subject as well
1:40:18
Zoran Mandani, the mayor of New York who is out of the blocks
1:40:23
at an absolute rate of knots making differences, doing things, upsetting I don't normally like this phrase
1:40:29
but I think upsetting all the right people sometimes does reach parts that other descriptions cannot reach
1:40:35
it's moved into a space that I read about this morning and it made me think about a moment in yesterday's show
1:40:41
during Mystery Hour when I explained to I can't remember, what was the question about
1:40:48
It was about sounds, wasn't it? Or music of some kind. It was like a reflex reaction to things
1:40:54
that we have no control over. And I said to you, it was Bass Face, wasn't it
1:40:58
I said to you a couple of years ago that I had gone to a free concert
1:41:03
And I've been to concerts before and I've been to the opera before
1:41:08
And it doesn't always happen. But I'd been to a free concert in a church
1:41:14
and I had caught myself, I had found myself at a classical music concert
1:41:21
I had noticed, I'd sort of came to, as it were. I hadn't fallen asleep, but I'd..
1:41:27
I kind of came to, as it were, and noticed that I had tears streaming down my face
1:41:32
Not tears of sadness, I don't know if that... Really tears of joy, but tears
1:41:36
I had been moved emotionally in such a way that my body responded independently of my mind
1:41:44
So, bizarrely, there were three questions on Mystery Hour yesterday about bodies responding independently of the mind
1:41:50
One of them was about the face that you pull when a particularly thumping bass line kicks in
1:41:55
One of them was about what your tongue does when you're eating. And I can't remember what the third one was
1:42:01
But there were three things that all unexpectedly ended up with quite similar answers
1:42:07
And I was thinking about that music thing and about what had happened to me that day
1:42:14
And I'm, you know, I'm quite a, what would the word be? No, not pretentious
1:42:19
That's not the word I'm looking for. Culture makes me sound like a wally
1:42:23
I'm lucky. Lucky. I'm very lucky. I get to go to things. I get to go to big cultural events
1:42:28
I can be transported by theatre, for example. I've never seen a King Lear I didn't love
1:42:34
But my feeling is, and colleagues disagree, my feeling is that classical music affects you in a way that nothing else does
1:42:47
now some of the best nights out i've had in my life and even this year involve pop concerts or
1:42:57
rock concerts so this year alone i've seen james i've seen bel and sebastian and i've seen the
1:43:03
streets live and they were absolutely incredible and there were moments that i would describe as
1:43:09
transcendental, when you're there but not there. Do you know what I mean? You're picked up on a
1:43:13
tidal wave of joy. The same with sport. Sport is very much a spiky graph because there are periods
1:43:20
of boredom when you're watching sport or periods of ennui and then periods of absolute misery and
1:43:28
ridiculous excitement. When we scored our third against Southend United away, there were about
1:43:34
9,000 of them and about 90 of us. That, me and Wayne from
1:43:38
Basildon, we were jumping around the away end at South End United
1:43:44
So I get that. That's transcendent, but that's a transactional. You sit through the misery
1:43:50
if you go to sport in return for the joy. It's very
1:43:56
transactional. You sit through the misery. You sit through Hornchurch away because you know that there'll be a South End
1:44:02
away admittedly this is quite niche unless you're a kid amongst the harriers fan in which case it's
1:44:07
the most bespoke radio that you will ever hear rave is different because there were a lot of drugs
1:44:14
involved for a lot of people apparently so that doesn't quite work i don't think that the the
1:44:19
transcendental nature of of rave culture or nightclub culture but mamdani has introduced
1:44:26
a program in association with the Metropolitan Opera House, which will give away 70,000 tickets
1:44:34
a year. Have a little listen to him describing it. Welcome to a night at the opera. Opera is one of
1:44:42
the greatest art forms we have, and there's no better place to see it than here, at the iconic
1:44:46
Metropolitan Opera House in Lincoln Center. Every New Yorker should have the opportunity to see this
1:44:50
no matter how much money is in their pocket That why we giving away 70 free tickets to the Met this season for New Yorkers who never experienced it before From now until early June we releasing 10 tickets a month via a lottery to see shows like Macbeth
1:45:05
La Boheme, and many more. All absolutely free. And the best part, this will be a permanent
1:45:11
ongoing partnership with the Met every year. So if you miss a show this year, don't worry about it
1:45:15
You'll have a chance next year and the year after that. And well, you get the idea. All you have to
1:45:19
do is go to on.nyc.gov slash opera to sign up from the rise of the opera bufa in the 18th century
1:45:25
the mayor fero la guardia's people's opera in the 1940s this art form was meant to be seen
1:45:30
by everyone just get your glasses out and i'll see you at the show and i i'm not i haven't even
1:45:37
looked into whether or not there's been criticisms of this or talk about the cost or the money or any
1:45:43
of that because i just love the idea of a politician achieving power and and thinking you know that
1:45:49
old line about, oh, it's not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your
1:45:53
country. Right, what can I do with this power that I've got now? What can I
1:45:57
do? Okay, I'm, uh, yeah, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. 70,000 people
1:46:03
who may not have otherwise been able to go to the opera will be going to the opera every
1:46:07
single year from now on. And that's just a magnificent thing. It's a wonderful thing
1:46:11
But why? So you know how this program works. Why is it a wonderful thing
1:46:17
what is it so there are two questions here this is culture hour
1:46:23
isn't it on LBC there are two questions here classical music and opera
1:46:30
including opera the idea that it reaches parts that other art forms cannot reach
1:46:36
now I'm a little bit I don't know whether I would 10 or 20 years ago
1:46:44
have argued this position I think I might have said that what I feel in the audience at a Stone Roses concert
1:46:52
is absolutely identical to what I feel in the audience at a Debussy recital or at an opera
1:47:00
and I've been to some operas that I haven't enjoyed, don't get me wrong this isn't like some absolutely foolproof switch that you flick and suddenly get transported
1:47:10
so I think that it does refresh parts that no other art forms can reach
1:47:16
that's the traditional phone-in agree or disagree 0345 6060 973 but the
1:47:26
the second phone-in the one that I'm more interested in is trying to put
1:47:32
into words things that can't be put into words, it's just becoming a bit of a theme
1:47:37
on the program isn't it, phone-ins that aren't phone-ins and give me a ring and put into words
1:47:41
something that is impossible to put well it can't be impossible to put it into words it can't be impossible to put it into words
1:47:48
what happens in those moments why did tears suddenly start pouring down my face
1:47:56
while listening I think to some Schubert a piece of music I'd never listened to before
1:48:01
so it's got no associations it's not as if it's triggering memories
1:48:05
or kicking things off there's two things that are relevant here i think if you ever do meditation or if you ever do um
1:48:15
uh like yin yoga or meditative yoga do you know i'm in such a good mood today and i'm not entirely
1:48:24
sure why although my mum's back home which is a a major relief um and a rather lovely thing so
1:48:30
that's probably taking a bit of a bit of a weight off my shoulders but i'm in such a such a lovely
1:48:34
me today, I may tell you the Tai Chi story before the hour is out. That could be
1:48:38
Sasha's been asking about it. Maybe the Tai Chi story gets an outing today, but no, it won't. I'm never
1:48:44
going to tell you the Tai Chi story. Never going to tell you that story. But if you're doing stuff like that
1:48:50
then you reach this plane sometimes that I think is best described as liminal. So you're
1:48:58
not asleep. Everyone's done this. You don't have to do yoga or
1:49:02
anything like that to get there. You know that You might get it on an aeroplane, for example, or you might just get it in bed normally
1:49:08
You're not asleep, but you're not awake either. You are completely relaxed
1:49:13
Zen, I guess, is what you'd call it if you were in that world
1:49:18
And a good teacher can help you get there. You know, they do this thing where first you relax the crown of your head
1:49:27
you move down your body, and before you get to your toes, you've gone
1:49:30
so it's not a million miles away from hypnotism you know from from hypnotherapy you're not asleep
1:49:36
but you are zen you're i call it i think of it as a liminal space between
1:49:44
sleep and wake so beautiful imagery in in some books i was reading by ellie griffith about
1:49:52
norfolk and the the space between the the land and the sky or the sea and the sky the space between
1:49:57
there's spaces in between spaces really fascinating to me as I get older
1:50:03
and sometimes this kind of music does that it takes you into
1:50:07
a space, almost like a trance like state where you are neither awake
1:50:15
nor asleep and then you snap out of it and you notice
1:50:18
that you've got tears running down your face what's happening? 0345 6060 973
1:50:27
is the number that you need. What is actually happening? And, genuine question
1:50:35
is it unique to classical music? Because this is what Zoran Mamdami
1:50:39
is trying to give to 70,000 New Yorkers. He's trying to give them the thing that I am struggling..
1:50:45
No, he's trying to give them the thing that I'm asking you to describe. What happens in those moments
1:50:53
what happens in those moments because i don't know and i know and i think is there a film is
1:51:01
it one of the mafia films is it the godfather and and maybe marlon brando is at the opera and he's
1:51:07
got tears streaming down his face do you is that am i imagining that there's definitely a film where
1:51:13
a big mafioso is sitting at the opera and that thing happens and i remember watching it and as
1:51:20
quite a romantic kid. And I remember thinking, oh, that's lovely. I wish that would happen to me
1:51:24
But it never did. It never did happen to me. And then it did
1:51:30
You know, two years ago, well into my 50s. So what is it
1:51:33
What is happening in those moments? And is it unique to classical music
1:51:40
That's, um... The phone-in I would have done a few years ago, and it's one of the
1:51:43
loveliest calls we've ever taken to the programme. It would be about discovering opera
1:51:47
or classical music, particularly if it was not part of your childhood
1:51:51
or part of your background or anything like that. Do you remember, we took a call from a lovely woman
1:51:56
and we got her some tickets. We got her a couple of tickets to the English National Opera and she had an absolute ball
1:52:01
And she just randomly or organically developed this passion for opera. The ENO, by the way, has all sorts of schemes
1:52:08
that make opera a lot more affordable and a lot more accessible for people
1:52:12
especially young people. But the thing I'm trying to describe is I've got words like
1:52:23
zen doesn work does it because you can do that with no music transcendent what is happening in that moment and why is it so beautiful why is it so powerful because that who i think mamdani is i really do i think he is someone who
1:52:36
has been there in that place and thought god if only everybody could feel this and that is such
1:52:44
an extraordinary thing for a politician to do to witness beauty and think i've got some power now
1:52:52
maybe I can help and it won't work on all 70,000 people of course it won't but
1:52:57
I think it's Robert De Niro in The Untouchables that I'm talking about actually
1:53:02
I knew it was a big one but Mamdani's been to that place
1:53:07
he's felt that thing he's felt that beauty and he has decided
1:53:11
that he wants other people to do it as well he wants other people
1:53:16
to have that experience because you could go through your whole life and never have it
1:53:21
and of course if you're from a poorer background or you don't have these kind of influences around you then
1:53:28
you're much more likely to go through your whole life and never have that feeling and that's why
1:53:32
there are two questions here because the first is is it just classical music that can do this
1:53:40
well i think it is and i love my other forms of music my other art forms is it just classical
1:53:50
music and what is it? What is actually happening? What is actually happening? 0345 6060 973 is the
1:53:59
number you need. If you hit the numbers now you will get through. This is a completely self-generated phoning topic. I don't think anyone else will be doing this any time soon but
1:54:09
it's inspired by politics. It's inspired by current affairs. It's inspired by Zoran Mamdani
1:54:13
arguably the most impressive politician at the moment in the English-speaking world
1:54:17
more on him a little later this hour. But I want to start with this. What's actually happening
1:54:22
What is the gift he's trying to give to 70,000 New Yorkers? And is it a gift that can only come wrapped up in classical music
1:54:30
This is 12.18. James O'Brien on LBC. 20 minutes after 12, you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:54:38
Crack on with this, and then I'll squeeze in some P.G. Woodhouse as well before the hour is out
1:54:43
I think that's pretty much all we've got to get through today. Oh, Eric Idle on full disclosure
1:54:47
Eric, my third Python. That's probably it now. A really lovely conversation
1:54:52
A little bit of that coming up later as well. Paul is in Cologne to steer us to the music of the spheres
1:54:57
Paul, what would you like to say? Hi, James. Nice to talk to you again
1:55:01
Likewise. You're an opera singer, aren't you? We talked before, yeah. I helped you with your speaking voice
1:55:06
You did. You're having problems losing your speaking voice. Yes. It worked. It's worked. I'm still here
1:55:12
Did it work? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go on. I think one of the things is that
1:55:17
presumably when you went to classical concert you were listening to music that might be two or three hundred
1:55:23
years old. Yes. So in that situation only the best music has survived
1:55:28
whereas when you go to a rock concert you're hearing current music
1:55:33
a lot of which won't survive that test of time. Do you think
1:55:37
I kind of do. Well a lot of it won't because you know I mean that's not an opinion
1:55:42
and that's counting. But I mean, I've witnessed... I've seen some popular musicians
1:55:48
at the absolute top of their game and I haven't felt what I felt that day
1:55:52
And, you know, I've felt it a few times since. I haven't always come around to notice tears flowing down
1:55:58
So you've been quite pragmatic about this. I thought you'd be more team opera
1:56:03
Well, I am. I've got some other things, but I just thought that that is definitely a factor
1:56:08
Only the best survive. The operas that move you the most are the ones that continue to get played every year for 300 years
1:56:13
and the ones that don't move you that much disappear. Yeah, so you've removed recency bias, really
1:56:18
from your emotional palate, haven't you? You know when they sometimes say, what are the best 100 albums of all time
1:56:24
And the Spice Girls come third, and you sort of think, I'm pretty sure that's not the third best album of all time
1:56:29
but it was number one last week, so people have it in the form
1:56:32
You get rid of recency bias under what you described. So the classical music that has made the canon, as it were
1:56:39
is the best we've ever had. Yeah. If it moves you, you'll come back and see it again
1:56:45
Yeah, okay. But what's it doing, though? What's it doing, regardless of what..
1:56:52
You know, regardless of how it's ended up at the top of the tree
1:56:58
what's it actually doing? Well, I think every sound that you're hearing
1:57:03
from a classical instrument or a classical voice is coming to you without going through a circuit board
1:57:10
And a lot of it is to do with breathing, which is an emotion that transmits through a theatre
1:57:17
You see those musicians, whether they're playing instruments, whether they're singing, you see them take the breath as they're playing
1:57:25
They're sending that emotion out without it going through any circuit board or amplification
1:57:30
And I think that's really, really powerful. So that's John, go on
1:57:35
You see that because I've done some operas that have to be amplified because of where they are
1:57:42
and you absolutely lose, I would say, 20-30% of the communication. You feel it. It's gone because you've gone through a circuit board
1:57:51
And I don't want to take away any talent from musicians who use circuit boards, of course
1:57:56
but what I would say to them is if you can do that with an electric guitar
1:58:00
imagine what you could do with a cello without your circuit board
1:58:04
do you know oddly I was just thinking about Miles Davis in the background while you were talking there
1:58:10
and my friend Scott just sent me a message saying what about Thelonious Monk I think jazz he's described it
1:58:15
and he's a brilliant musician sophisticated music can do it so that's where your
1:58:22
electric guitar cello observation comes in I don't know exactly what we mean by sophisticated
1:58:27
but we kind of feel what it means don't we I always say it's like fine wine or cheese
1:58:33
When you first taste it, you don't understand it at all. Yeah
1:58:36
But when you've had it a few times and you start thinking about it and you're a tiny little bit educated about it
1:58:43
then the pleasure becomes greater than the simple wine and the simple cheese
1:58:48
It's like a dialogue between your intellect and your emotions. Yeah, and it doesn't even have to be that you understand necessarily
1:58:54
everything that's coming at you. It's a feeling. and it's a conscious thing when you're sat next to everybody else in the audience who's feeling the same thing
1:59:03
That's also really powerful. That amplifies it for you as well. Does it cut both ways
1:59:08
I mean, do you think you reach places that the rest of us can only dream of by dint of being both consumer and supplier of these moments
1:59:18
I suppose it does give you a different perspective and you certainly feel when the connection is great and when it isn't great
1:59:24
and I've certainly done a lot of operas that haven't connected with people and a lot of modern operas that haven't connected with people
1:59:31
So you definitely feel that. Are we talking about a spiritual dimension here, do you think, in some way
1:59:38
Well, I mean, it's definitely the same. I mean, I had the same feeling when I used to go to church
1:59:43
as a little boy in the choir and I didn't understand half of what was going on
1:59:48
But the feeling to me, the emotion that everyone who's producing that sound had
1:59:54
and the feeling that the audience had coming back at you is exactly the same thing when you're in an opera
2:00:00
I absolutely buy that. Absolutely buy that. And of course it's not a coincidence, is it
2:00:05
that many religions, my own Christianity, particularly high church Catholicism as well
2:00:12
are absolutely steeped in choral music and it is an incredibly transporting genre
2:00:18
It really is. And, you know, it may well be that the congregations
2:00:22
are feeling something they would have felt going to the opera, but they presume that it is somehow linked to God
2:00:28
This is great as well from Emma. It's not just classical music. It's any experience where you contemplate
2:00:33
giving up yourself to the infinite, even if only for a brief moment in our time
2:00:38
We all yearn for connection to something higher and more beautiful than ourselves
2:00:43
Terry Pratchett described us as where the falling angel meets the rising ape
2:00:46
Again, it's that idea of the hinterland, the point of move meeting
2:00:53
And human-made media can help us connect to that universalness, that timelessness
2:00:59
I still think it's most likely to be music though and I would add jazz actually to classical for those
2:01:07
and I really would, I mean really good jazz obviously like a bit of Miles Davis or a bit of Thelonious Monk
2:01:13
the list isn't getting much longer, you've basically got sophisticated music on the list
2:01:18
so have you ever listened to an artist called Hania Rani so I discovered her during lockdown
2:01:24
actually I'm going to go and see her live at the South Bank I don't even know what you'd describe that as
2:01:29
but that is music that is very, very modern and is almost designed to take you to the space
2:01:36
that Paul is talking about. Robin is in Murfield in West Yorkshire
2:01:41
Robin, what made you pick up the phone? Hi there, James. Hello, Robin
2:01:44
Yes, it's me, the worried waller again. Yeah, I was listening to you and I was just thinking
2:01:53
it's not just opera. Opera is brilliant. It's powerful. It sweeps you up
2:01:59
And, you know, seeing and hearing the singers and, you know, feeling the vibration
2:02:06
Yes. It is physical, isn't it? Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned the vibrations
2:02:11
Yeah, and it sweeps you up. However, I wouldn't say it's just opera
2:02:17
I, when I'm out working, alone in a field somewhere hammering away at a wall
2:02:21
I'm listening to a lot of heavy metal. It goes with the work, and it really helps power you along
2:02:29
But at the same time, you have some beautiful lyrics. People don't always associate
2:02:35
Yeah, but the lyrics is the intellect. The lyrics is your processing that
2:02:41
That's your process. But the same with poetry, because I love poetry, and sometimes I'm transported by poetry
2:02:46
But I don't think I'm ever transported in quite the same way that I am by classical music or jazz
2:02:51
But it's the way it's conveyed. Is it? Well, the singers, for instance
2:02:55
The types of metal I listen to a lot is heavy metal more broadly
2:03:00
but also power metal and symphonic metal. This is where you have a lot of people who train in sort of similar ways of opera singers
2:03:09
even if not having done opera themselves. Nightwish is a classic example
2:03:15
They even did a... So could you go to a Nightwish concert and conceivably forget who you are and where you are
2:03:22
and come around a few moments later and find tears running down your face
2:03:27
Yes, absolutely. Is it sophisticated music? Because you said symphonic. Symphonic, I think, in musical terms
2:03:34
is probably a synonym for sophisticated. Yes, but also feeling like there's a symphony
2:03:42
Because to be clear, you're not talking about status quo. No, although that being said
2:03:47
rocking all over the world is always great to bounce around to. I'm quite happy to lose myself
2:03:51
But no one has ever disappeared into themselves and come round to find tears pouring down their face
2:03:55
while listening to In the Army now. No, maybe not. I don't know. I'm not a snob
2:04:01
I'm not a snob. I can be a snob in some ways, but I don't know the kind of music that you're talking about
2:04:09
but I presume it is very sophisticated. There's an awful lot going on
2:04:13
and that might be part of the answer that we're moving towards, in that you can listen to a beautiful song
2:04:18
Some of the best songs ever written are incredibly simple, like imagine you know or but but it's not going to hit you in quite it's almost as if you're getting
2:04:27
messaged by how oh here it is it's like you're getting messaged by a thousand hands at the same
2:04:32
time and and that's why it needs to be sophisticated yeah it's it's um i mean one of the feelings i've
2:04:38
had from having both been to heavy metal concerts and also been to opera is that it um it sort of
2:04:45
makes you, it is a sort of a spirit, almost like a spiritual thing
2:04:49
It makes you feel like you're achieving something that you physically cannot do
2:04:53
Like flying. Yes, yes, yes, exactly that. Exactly that. And that to yourself is
2:05:01
completely unbelievable and that's one of the things. And you get that out of this
2:05:05
genre of music as well. Yes, I listen to things like Sabaton
2:05:09
which did do a good cover of In the Army now. I wasn't dissing the
2:05:13
quo, you know that, don't you? I would never diss the quo. I would never diss the quo
2:05:18
Oh, no, no, no, don't worry. And, yeah, I've listened to even heavy metal
2:05:23
versions of opera, which are a great crossover. Yeah, so it's closer than most people listening will realise
2:05:29
then, actually, genre-wise. It's not, I mean, because I don't know that anybody is going to have these kind of experiences
2:05:35
listening to classic pop, but there's something about the kind of metal
2:05:39
that you listen to that is symphonic and multi-layered, and therefore closer, perhaps, to classical
2:05:45
than pop it's also of course in the end it's all subjective is it though is it all subjective
2:05:51
i'm not sure it is i think there's got to be something here that we can and it might be vague
2:05:57
it might be like we're plugging into the universal and we plug in in different ways but we are all
2:06:02
doing that or there will be something we can identify as a uniting phenomenon and it will be
2:06:08
i mean it's not the best ogy i've ever come up with but but that trying to trying to expand on
2:06:13
the notion of sophistication. Having your mind massaged by a thousand different hands
2:06:19
at the same time, as opposed to the two brilliant best hands ever
2:06:23
There's something about the sophistication that takes you to a slightly different place
2:06:28
I think. I don't know. I'll tell you what, I've got a lot of Sabaton fans listening to this programme
2:06:32
Robin, who knew? Brilliant. I'm so glad. I'm so glad. Who knew
2:06:38
Take care, mate. Back into the fields. Back into the fields with you if you didn't understand
2:06:42
elements of that exchange robin is a dry stone waller which actually do you ever get it while
2:06:47
you're working do you i mean regardless of the music do you ever when when you're on a roll as
2:06:53
it were and everything feels like it slotting into place perfectly and and everything is um it feels almost as if it been written in the stars as opposed to other days where you be trying to find the right bit of stone and you be really noticing that your knees hurt
2:07:09
and then some days you just feel like you're flying. Yeah, it is
2:07:14
It's brilliant, and those are the days when you think, oh, I wish I could be working here forever
2:07:18
Yes. And it's just, you don't want the day to end. I get that sometimes here
2:07:24
I get that here as well. I think you can probably tell. Do you know how Douglas Adams put it
2:07:28
The guy that wrote Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Oh, how? He said that some days you throw yourself at the floor and miss
2:07:36
Yeah. That's fair. I love that. So long and thanks for all the fish in the meantime
2:07:43
It's 12.33. Amelia Cox has your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC. 12.36 is the time
2:07:51
Okay, time for some culture of a very different flavour. So this is written in, or probably written in 1937
2:07:57
And remember, this is an era where Oswald Mosley was on the march, where fascism in this country was probably closer to the surface than it has been at any point until now, where it is also very close to the surface
2:08:08
And Woodhouse, despite being very much a member of the ruling class, had an extraordinary ability to puncture the pompous and to recognise the evil in fascism at a time when, of course, the owners of the Daily Mail were praising it to the rafters, as they would also do to Hitler himself
2:08:27
and Woodhouse, this is a gift, isn't it? Talking about culture being transcendent
2:08:33
I mean, sometimes you're reading Woodhouse, and you really do go to places that you don't go to with anyone else
2:08:39
It's just so funny. You've probably seen, did you see the Fry and Laurie adaptations a few years ago
2:08:44
Many years ago, in fact. They really got to the heart of it, but there's nothing quite like reading it
2:08:49
And I'll try and do a posh accent, all right? Which, I mean, probably won't work
2:08:55
But I think it just works better if you can try and hear it in the voice of Bertie Worcester
2:09:00
So this is 1938, OK? Have a listen to what you just heard in the news bulletins
2:09:06
Have a listen, have a think or reflect upon why we are talking increasingly about fascist flash mobs on British streets
2:09:14
And then listen to it. This is one of the best ways to deal with it. It is about time, I proceeded, that some public-spirited person came along and told you where you got off
2:09:25
The trouble with you, Spode, is that just because you have succeeded in inducing a handful of half-wits
2:09:31
to disfigure the London scene by going about in black shorts, you think you're someone
2:09:37
You hear them shouting, Hail Spode! And you imagine it is the voice of the people
2:09:42
That is where you make your bloomer. What the voice of the people is saying is
2:09:47
look at that frightful arse spode swanking about in footer bags. Did you ever in your puff see such a perfect perisher
2:09:56
And that is Bertie Wooster or P.G. Woodhouse effectively describing the grifters who you will be aware of
2:10:05
in the news at the moment in absolutely perfect terms. The only words of translation that I think needed
2:10:11
Footer bags refers to the black shorts that these fascists were wearing in 1938
2:10:19
and which, of course, you will probably have seen fascists or, as Woodhouse quite beautifully describes them
2:10:26
a handful of half-wits parading about in today. That's another reason why
2:10:32
Education, to go back to the first hour, is about much more than qualifications
2:10:36
and culture is so liberating. Jamie's in St. Albans. Jamie, what made you pick up the phone
2:10:44
Hi, James. So I asked myself the same question a few months ago
2:10:48
because I wanted to know why I could be so emotionally moved
2:10:52
and manipulated by music. Yes. So to take you very briefly on that journey
2:10:56
I've played self-taught piano and guitar for the last 35 years. Okay
2:10:59
And I wanted to know why people like Hans Zimmer or Andrew Lloyd Webber could literally pull those strings in my emotions
2:11:07
and make me, you know, come to tears, like I said. Yes, yes. And so I went on a journey about music theory, which I knew nothing about, but always wanted to know about
2:11:16
So I knew how to play an instrument, practically, but never knew about theory
2:11:20
And started following this guy from the 90s on YouTube who taught me about music theory and specifically something called intervals and modes
2:11:30
And very simply put, the intervals between different notes create different feelings when we hear them
2:11:37
and so if you imagine one note on one instrument doing a certain change from one note to another
2:11:44
makes you feel a certain way, an orchestra has multiple instruments playing multiple notes
2:11:50
which they know will manipulate you and you get a kind of an amplified effect of that
2:11:55
and then of course adding the environment and your situation and what's going on
2:11:59
and that is how you get manipulated by music. So the sophistication is relevant
2:12:06
Very, very. Wow. Anyone who talks about this, so if anyone's interested
2:12:10
go and check out a guy called Scotty West. He's a genius in terms of teaching this
2:12:14
I've never known anyone who can teach this so well on YouTube. But what he explains is that people who really love music
2:12:22
and really understand it, they will listen to jazz, as you mentioned before
2:12:27
and opera and classical because it's more complex. And symphonic metal. And symphonic metal, yes
2:12:33
And I guess the way to think about it, you like food and I like food, in cooking is you could have a very simple plate of spaghetti or you could have a plate of spaghetti
2:12:42
with very complex flavors. Chocolate in your chili is a good example, right? Because then the more
2:12:47
complex it is, the more intriguing it is, the more you go, oh, ah, you know, what's going on there
2:12:53
So you appreciate it more. And that doesn't mean that fish and chips isn't delicious
2:13:00
I mean, absolutely delicious. And it might be the last meal you want if you're on death row
2:13:04
but a Tom Carriage special is going to I can't get past this idea
2:13:12
and it's quite an unpleasant phrase if we say your soul is being massaged
2:13:16
by a thousand hands you can't get past the fact that the number of hands
2:13:20
is going to make a difference and that's a very very simplistic version
2:13:23
of what you've just said can I blow your mind even more? yeah go on
2:13:27
ok so I really went down a rabbit hole on this because ultimately to use your phrase
2:13:31
it's maths isn't it? it's all to do with maths right? And then, and counting, yeah, so it also, Pythagoras, our friend with triangles
2:13:41
he had calculated the same thing, because actually if you start to look at the maths of music theory
2:13:47
it's all Pythagoras. That's the music of the spheres, so to speak
2:13:51
That's it. When you get that thing, brilliant mathematics, and sometimes filmmakers do it, don't they
2:13:56
And it does feel close. So it's formulaic almost. but not at the same time
2:14:03
because otherwise AI would be able to write better operas than Mozart And that the question Why can AI not do that And the reality is that humans are a big old bag of mixed emotions and experiences
2:14:15
and different hearing and sight and all those kind of things. So you add all of that into it
2:14:20
and that's what really is the magic, the special source or the alchemy, if you want
2:14:24
I love this. And so you would say that, albeit that we might be incredibly moved
2:14:30
and feel that our soul has been touched by simpler music, it is a different thing that happens when we're listening to these genres
2:14:37
I think because of the complexity, but in the same way using your fish and chips example
2:14:43
I can listen to Jeff Lynne, for example, a VLO, and it could be guitar, drum and bass
2:14:49
but the way he changes that chord or puts one chord above another melody
2:14:55
it pulls you, you know? So it can be very simple, or just a single violin can do it
2:15:00
Yes, yeah, yeah, I guess, I guess. I think that is absolutely fascinating
2:15:05
What's the name of the dude again? So check him out. His name is Scotty West
2:15:09
He's now, it's really, just briefly, he basically did a guitar kind of course in the late 90s
2:15:14
and it's hilarious because he sits there and he's kind of like, kind of werewolf, you know, fleece
2:15:20
doing these kind of videos. And it didn't really go anywhere at the time
2:15:24
but someone uploaded them all. Oh, amazing. All for free on YouTube, and he's become a massive success and phenomenon
2:15:30
How lovely. I just... In fact, you mentioned Jeff Lynne. You know, Peter's reminded me of this
2:15:38
Have you seen Shawshank Redemption? Many years ago, yeah. I watched it again recently
2:15:43
One of the great things about having children who are film buffs is you find yourself re-watching films
2:15:47
and you've forgotten just how brilliant they are. And when Tim Robbins' character, Andy Dufresne
2:15:53
locks himself in the governor's office and he plays some Mozart, I think it's the Duettino Solaria
2:15:59
and I don't think that would have worked, that scene, if he'd played anything
2:16:04
if he'd played ELO or if he'd played... I'm not... I mean, I love ELO. I mean, Roy Wood was a local lad
2:16:11
I think a few of them were. But the... I don't think it would have worked in the same way, you see
2:16:15
Do you? Honestly. I... I... I don't... I don't think it would have worked
2:16:20
because I think classical music is timeless. Yeah. So, you know, ELO is of a time
2:16:26
You can still appreciate it now. I'm not sure my son would like ELO, but it's all the time
2:16:30
But as your previous caller said, this is music that's been around for hundreds of years now
2:16:35
and it's been refined and refined and it really is at the core, I guess
2:16:41
in terms of, you know, kind of evolution. Yeah, and I mean, we're talking about the West
2:16:47
Of course we are. And there will be other theories and other ideas
2:16:50
and other moments, but the notion of transcendental or transcending the quotidian, the day-to-day as a consequence of music
2:16:58
I think it's something that, obviously, Mamdani values enormously and quite, quite correctly
2:17:05
James O'Brien on LBC. It's 12.48. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
2:17:12
We're paying a little bit of praise to Zoran Mamdani. I don't know if you saw any of Netanyahu's speech
2:17:18
to the UN General Assembly in New York on Thursday. Netanyahu, of course, would be arrested in most countries
2:17:23
or many countries in the world, as a consequence of the arrest warrant that has been issued for him for alleged war crimes
2:17:30
And he did that thing that no one else is allowed to do
2:17:35
He conflated being Jewish, criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism, including Zoran Mamdani, of being anti-Semitic and attacking everyone
2:17:43
He even attacked Britain. He attacked France. The attack on Britain is quite funny
2:17:48
because the kind of people who think that there was absolutely nothing wrong with Britain's conduct during the colonial era
2:17:54
or during the empire or even during slavery, they are often quite likely also to support Benjamin Netanyahu
2:18:01
So when Benjamin Netanyahu essentially accuses us of a hypocrisy for criticising his regime over what they're doing in the West Bank and Gaza
2:18:08
by saying, as if Britain can lecture anybody else on and then insert whatever words you're most comfortable with
2:18:13
ethnic cleansing, colonialism, genocide, how do those people, if they actually had any consciences
2:18:18
how do they square their support for Netanyahu with the fact that we didn't do anything wrong at all during that era
2:18:24
So how dare the bloke we're supporting accuse us of having done bad things
2:18:28
Of course, that's one of the great advantages of never having to think deeply about things. But simply because he calls Zoran Mamdani anti-Semitic
2:18:35
and proves once again that that is a phrase that people like Benjamin Netanyahu have managed to render
2:18:40
almost meaningless, even as the reality of anti-Semitism remains hideous and real
2:18:46
I just thought I'd play you this, partly because I'm now, as you've probably gathered
2:18:51
becoming a fully paid-up member of the Zoran Mamdani Fan Club, and partly because it's such a beautiful corrective
2:18:56
to the bile that Netanyahu was spitting in New York yesterday. This is from a few weeks ago, September the 11th to be precise
2:19:06
when Mamdani invited some Jewish children to City Hall to celebrate Rosh Hashanah ahead of the Jewish New Year
2:19:14
And it's just lovely. It's only 44 seconds, but it will make you feel better about things
2:19:20
and it might actually help to erase the hideous sight of Benjamin Netanyahu
2:19:25
ranting like a pub boar at absolutely everybody who dares to critique the continuing carnage he presides over in Gaza and the West Bank
2:19:35
I have a question for everybody here. How do we celebrate Rosh Hashanah
2:19:40
The apple and the honey? Yeah, and you wish for Happy New Year or something like that. Okay
2:19:47
And what do you say to wish someone? Shana Tova. Shana Tova
2:19:52
Because Rosh Hashanah is a Happy New Year. Shana Tova. I wish these apples didn't have skin on them
2:20:05
Yeah. Next year we're going to do that. What would make a sweet New Year for you
2:20:11
A jetpack. A jetpack? How about for you? Michelle? How about for you
2:20:18
Family. Family? It's lovely. And it goes on, actually. It also includes a nod towards the arsenal
2:20:24
which, of course, is probably the most divisive thing that happens in the entire exchange
2:20:29
And, of course, he doesn't just do that kind of basic, simple, beautiful humanity
2:20:34
He's also pretty good at the politics. I told the president that we're going to have
2:20:38
all of the members of the press here on the lawn, And that is something that I believe in is everyone, no matter the opinion or the critique that we engage
2:20:47
It's interesting because they said they were going to boycott me, but they never boycott me
2:20:54
So I wasn't very worried about that. Look at all that press. I never get anything positive
2:20:59
It's always negative. Even having to do with the war, we've done so well
2:21:04
We have told, look, they're not going to have a nuclear weapon. Let me just put it that way And they not doing well They not doing well In fact I have meetings on it today They doing very poorly You would think that an outlet would write at least reasonably well but never And I think that these outlets have an obligation to be fair And if they fake news I really think I have an obligation not to allow them into another very special house This is a special house Gracie Manchin Well the White House is the most special of all houses I have to say And I don even think the mayor would argue with that
2:21:37
And I think I have an obligation not to let fake news. They're very bad for the country, very bad for national security
2:21:43
So I have that obligation. So we'll see how it works out. Trump lying, just for the avoidance of doubt, absolutely lying
2:21:50
No one ever threatening to boycott, but him deciding to ban people from the Oval Office anyway
2:21:56
And somehow, somehow, somewhere, I wonder if there was a word we could think of to describe what might inform this kind of thinking
2:22:02
someone looks at those two men and prefers the second one to the first one on any conceivable
2:22:09
level personality politics um conduct context imagine that it's just absolutely extraordinary
2:22:17
but it's important to remember that that these people these people walk among us um 12 53 is the
2:22:24
time back to the music conversation nick's in shawram nick what made you pick up the phone
2:22:28
Hi James, it was just really interesting to hear this conversation because I think that what we're talking about here
2:22:35
isn't, it's over intellectualised sometimes and it's not necessarily about sophistication there's magic in music and we shouldn't necessarily seek to
2:22:44
understand it or know it all I like to try, it's nice to try
2:22:50
I don't think we'll ever succeed because if we could we'd be turning it into a formula
2:22:56
that could be, you know, easily replicated. But I like to contemplate the unknowable sometimes, Nick
2:23:03
But I think we need to hold on to the magic. This is the big AI debate in music
2:23:07
because it's like, you know, an AI will never replicate what a human is able to convey
2:23:12
through the frequencies and times. Absolutely, 100%. Because I want to be, and I am at the moment
2:23:18
But, you know, we can be taken by surprise, can't we? It's conveying something that words can't
2:23:28
and it's magic. Are you in the industry? I am, yeah. Where, what sort of level, if you don't mind me asking
2:23:35
I own a record label, but I guess my claim to fame to some degree
2:23:39
is discovering Adele. Adele? Amongst many other things. You're Nick Huggett then
2:23:44
Yes. So, okay. Also, our mates Rizzle Kicks are on your roster as well, aren't they
2:23:48
Well, I also signed them. I know you did, I know you did. and are you keeping a close eye
2:23:55
on what AI is doing Nick? I don't care No I know but I just
2:24:00
Only in the sense that I truly believe that I think there's magic in
2:24:07
music, humans and artistry that can never be replicated I'm against what the music business
2:24:15
is worried about and against that The thing is though to knit together the two
2:24:19
themes of this conversation My confidence that AI can never do what the humans do
2:24:24
kind of depends upon the ability to articulate the thing that you described as overthinking
2:24:31
If we were to actually be able to put together a compelling case
2:24:35
that AI can never do what the humans do, we'd have to make a better job of describing what it is that the humans do
2:24:42
Yes, I just don't know if we need to describe it or put it into words
2:24:46
Some things are just magic. Yes, they are. Some things are just magic
2:24:50
and I kind of envy your confidence that it's never going to happen on a computer
2:24:55
I'm about 99%, but you're a lot closer to the action than I am. Nick, thank you, mate
2:25:00
Lovely stuff. Lola Young as well. Manny Starr, yeah. She's fantastic. We love her
2:25:04
It's quite a roster you've got there. They've just put it in front of me. Extraordinary
2:25:09
Well, speaking of extraordinary rosters, you should check out Eric Idle's contacts book
2:25:13
and the people that came to visit him at his house in France in Provence, about which he's now written a new book
2:25:18
which was the reason why he dropped by the Full Disclosure Studios to record the latest episode of my interviews podcast
2:25:24
But harking back again to the first hour of the programme, I'm always more interested in the bits of the stories of these people
2:25:32
these iconic people that I meet, that we don't know, the story before they became the household name
2:25:38
And it turned out Eric Idle and I had at least something in common
2:25:43
When did you become giggly? I mean, did you giggle a lot with Nat, Grandma and Pop
2:25:47
Because I know Grandma took you to the cinema a lot. You got into the Marx Brothers and stuff
2:25:52
Were you a giggly boy? I think I knew what comedy was. But did you giggle? Were you giggly
2:25:57
I don't think I giggled. I think it's hard to discover when this happens
2:26:03
Of course it is. But I do remember not censoring anything. It would come out
2:26:08
So you tend to be the one who says what everybody's sort of thinking and then they all laugh
2:26:12
And then you get the one get beaten. Yeah. But you enjoyed the laughter
2:26:18
I think you must. I think that... Also, they can't hit you if they're laughing
2:26:22
No. So would you be... I mean, would you fight with other boys? Would there be..
2:26:26
Yes, absolutely. So it is a feral environment then. Yes. Yeah, yes, it is
2:26:31
But with teachers, otherwise it would have been Lord of the Flies. It was very much... That often occurs to me
2:26:36
Does it really? Yes, it does, because our particular class from 11 onwards
2:26:41
was a very much of a gang. We never took an honest exam
2:26:45
They'd unscrew the back of the Masters of Wardrobes, get out the exam paper, get out more exam questions
2:26:52
and then they'd write them all at night, the answers, and take them into the exam. Sensational
2:26:56
No, sensational, except O-level, which they couldn't get hold of. Yeah, but you can't do it
2:27:00
And they all disappeared. Really? Yeah, though I think six of us came back
2:27:04
Yes, absolutely. I wonder what happened to the others. Well, I think some of them were in jail by the time they got back to school
2:27:11
It sounds like they might have been. Yes. And then later, which I didn't know about
2:27:15
when he had this house in Provence, everyone from sort of Paul Simon and Art Garfunkel to Mick Jagger, various, Rowling, Sabine
2:27:20
it was just mad. It's not a world you wouldn't have minded being part of
2:27:25
It's a lovely interview, that, with a really, really lovely man. And the bigger the name
2:27:29
the bigger the expectation for me, and the more worried I am about them not living up to my..
2:27:33
I think I told you, people like Eric Idle, that's when I miss my dad the most
2:27:37
The idea of being able to ring my dad and say, Dad, guess who, guess who I've got in the studio
2:27:41
So, Eric Idle, Eric Idle. And Dad would be uncharacteristically excited in those moments
2:27:48
And I'm delighted to say that he lived fully up to all of my loftiest expectations
2:27:52
It's a lovely listen. If you missed any of today's show, you can listen back on our free Global Player app
2:27:57
or the LBC app where you can stay up to date with all the latest news, videos and opinion. You can listen to a range of podcasts, including that one and this one and the other one as well
2:28:05
So, download the official LBC app for free from the App Store now. Coming up at four on LBC, it's Tom Swarbrick
2:28:10
But now it's time for Sheila Fogarty. James O'Brien on LBC
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