The secret £5m gift to Nigel Farage | James O’Brien - The Whole Show

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Three minutes after ten, and you can tell I had a good weekend
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I hope you did as well, by the way. Long weekend indeed. Because I found myself sort of tilting at a windmill this morning
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that might sometimes seem a little bit too big or too fanciful
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I am a member of the British media. I don't think that needed a spoiler alert or will come as a major shock to anybody
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I am currently talking to you from behind a microphone in a studio
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and presenting what I think is the most popular speech-based programme on commercial radio in the United Kingdom
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So I'm not just a member of the British media. I am a relatively, what would the word be
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prominent player in some ways, according to whichever measures you prefer. That's not a boast. That's not an opinion
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Altogether now, that's counting. But there are days when I find myself contemplating current affairs
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which is after all the meat and drink of what we do together every morning
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and what I get paid to pontificate upon I find myself contemplating current affairs
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and wondering whether I am part of some Truman Show style social experiment
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it doesn't happen very often and I'm conscious of the role that biases play from both ends of the telescope
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I have biases, I have prejudices, I'm certain of it. I hope I don't have bigotries, but it's perfectly possible
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And that doesn't exclude or preclude me from pointing out the hideous bigotries and biases elsewhere in our world, in our politics and in our media
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But there is only so far a bias can go. Right? There is only so far a bias can go
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and it's not enough some mornings to simply say well that's the way it goes that's the way
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that bias has taken us because sometimes you look at a story or a juxtaposition of stories
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a combination of stories a coverage and and you just wonder whether you are actually
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part of something truly hideous. And listen, while I'm running through my CV
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I don't just present a radio programme, I've also written a book which essentially examines
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how on earth you create an ecosystem in which a population can be persuaded
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to vote epically and repeatedly against its own interests. It's called How They Broke Britain
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and it's probably due a sequel. So I'm not ignorant of the forces
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that could be loosely described as oligarch media or vested interests or, I mean, violently effective lobby groups
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pretending to be think tanks while refusing to reveal where all that money is coming from
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But even that, I mean, I suppose what I'm very cautiously suggesting to you
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is I'm more qualified than the average bear to answer the question that I'm about to ask you
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but there are days when I can't answer it. There are days when my answers don't seem to be adequate
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They don't seem to go far enough. In May of 2023, Keir Starmer received some spectacles
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Quite expensive designer glasses to the tune of £2,485 from a colleague
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who happens to be a very rich member of the House of Lords
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His wife also got some free clothes. This is in preparation for the imminent election campaigns
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And we joined in the criticism of this, although I hope, I hope
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and I perish the days when the internet started doing viral clips
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because if I did get a bit hysterical about it, you're going to be able to remind me in a moment
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In May of 2024, forgive me, he received these glasses before becoming Prime Minister
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And the world, I think you will remember, went a little bit mad, didn't it
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The world went a little bit mad. The outrage, the fury with which this revelation was greeted by
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I would like to say some, but I'm going to say almost all quarters of the British media
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You can pick your favourite if you want. You can think of somebody now who went absolutely bonkers
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about Keir Starmer getting some spectacles, getting gifted some spectacles by a parliamentary colleague
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who happened to be much richer than him. And you can probably measure on a scale of one to ten
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how absolutely bonkers these people went. I turn your attention next to a story
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that I hope you're aware of, but which, if you're not, I get it
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I completely understand how you have managed not to be aware of the following story
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Nigel Farage, the leader of Reform UK, was given £5 million. Not his party, not his organisation, not his structure, not his last party or the one before that, but him
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Current account territory. A £5 million personal gift. And he was given it, the Guardian reported last week
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shortly before announcing that he would stand in the 2024 British general election after all
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having previously insisted that he wouldn't. What's going on? A genuine question
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What is actually going on? The man that gave him this donation, this personal donation of five million pounds
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this who shall I make the check payable to, Nigel, donation of five million pounds
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is a so-called crypto billionaire who is based in Thailand and operates under two names
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His given name was Christopher Harbourn, but he has a Thai name as well in order to conduct his business in Thailand
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and he is heavily invested in cryptocurrency, which Nigel Farage has subsequently revealed
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He intends to deregulate in the event of him becoming prime minister
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in ways that would, and I don't think you need to be an economist
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to answer this question or to make this point, which would be incredibly beneficial for people
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who have made a ton of money already out of cryptocurrency. Tons more money will be heading their way
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five million pounds versus three pairs of spectacles now you know and i know that we live in a country we live in a society where the traditional means
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of getting our hands on the news are changing and crumbling all the time for example newspapers
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certainly the printed version of newspapers carry nothing like the weight that they used to call
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carry tragically um the way that social media is engineered and algorithmed these days mean that you can actually control the diet of news that British people are receiving in the hope of advancing your own interests
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whether financial or ideological. It is, lest there be any doubt, why Elon Musk bought Twitter
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There's an extraordinary story in the news today about one of the vilest Islamophobic accounts on that platform being run by somebody who would be a target of the hatred
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that he disseminates, were it not for the fact that he does it anonymously and is based in Pakistan
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He runs an account on Facebook and Instagram, not Twitter, forgive me, publishing memes calling for all Muslims to be deported from Britain
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and he's got 192,000 followers on Facebook. So that's how it works. That's how people get their information these days
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So it's possible you missed this story. I will tell you again
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£5 million as a private donation to a politician who at the time I think was chairman
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of the party and had said he wasn't going to run again because he was too skint and then lo and behold
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he announces that he's going to run again and shortly after that announces
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proposals that would render cryptocurrency billionaires eye-wateringly richer than they are already
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and I don't need AI, although Nico, thank you for actually taking up my offer, if you've got
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the time. I don't know if it's worth it. We could probably do it
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couldn't we, off the top of our own heads and get it right
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But make a list. Name a commentator. Name a broadcaster. Name a columnist
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Name a commentator and get some scales and on one side of the scales
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I want you to put the coverage that they gave to Keir Starmer's spectacles
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and on the other side of the scales, I want you to put the coverage that they gave to Nigel Farage
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accepting £5 million privately, secretly, undisclosed
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from a cryptocurrency billionaire based in Thailand. because I don't get this bit
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I do not understand how six days after that story broke, it's almost entirely disappeared
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Farage gave up his regular seat on Laura Koonsberg's programme, probably because even she, in these circumstances
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would have been compelled to ask him questions about it. But I don't understand how people who do what I do for a living
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I don't understand how people who call themselves commentators or columnists I genuinely don't understand
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I'm not a naive man I'm a bit idealistic I'm a little bit a sweet summer child at times
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of course I am I would much rather live my life believing the best of people than the worst
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but I do not understand my own industry and it's on days like that that I despair
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because look either I'm completely in the wrong on this or everybody else is
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with a few exceptions obviously and most obviously The Guardian, who broke this story and would probably have expected
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I don't know if they're as naive as I am, they would probably have expected it
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to have dominated the news agenda for at least as long as Keir Starmer's spectacles
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Because just think for a moment about how mad that is. Just think how mad that is
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It's not a donation, it's a gift. It's a present. How mad is that
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We could sit here and express similar levels of incredulity if it received the same levels of attention
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that Keir Starmer's spectacles received. The same levels. So we'd sit here now and we would go
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oh, well, I mean, that's a bit rum, isn't it? Keir Starmer accepted some spectacles from a parliamentary colleague
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Nigel Farage accepted a £5 million secret donation from a cryptocurrency billionaire based in Thailand
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who operates under two different names. And, God, what a weird country we live in
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that they've received equal and opposite amounts of coverage. Ha! Silly old me
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I'd have thought the £5 million secret gift might have been a slightly bigger story
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or a slightly bigger deal than the spectacles. The spectacles. And a suit
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But we're not. That's not the conversation we're having. We're not sitting here saying
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good Lord, how did those two stories, despite being so obviously and violently different
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receive the same level of coverage? We are sitting here and saying
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why has one of them barely been mentioned by individuals and outlets
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who were obsessed, I think, for weeks with Keir Starmer's spectacles, but have had absolutely nothing to say
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about a prominent British politician taking a secret £5 million gift from a cryptocurrency billionaire
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Shortly before, A, reverse ferreting on his pledge to stay out of politics
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and B, announcing potential policies that would be of enormous, almost immeasurable financial benefit to cryptocurrency billionaires
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This chap, Harbourn, by the way, is already the gifter of the largest ever single donation by a living person to a British political party
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He gave £12 million to Farage's outfit in 2025, including a one-off gift donation of £9 million
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£9 million. I haven't checked what Nigel Farage has to say on the subject
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but he probably claims he's never met the bloke such is his want
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such is his style £5 million in your current account £12 million
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in your company account or your party account and how much do you know about this dude
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how much do you know about him so i've written a book about it i've talked to you about it endlessly i am a victim of the um
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what's the word that i want a victim of the ecosystem i described because that's why i
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mentioned to you a few minutes ago that i can only find myself with the appetite to do this
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sort of thing when i've had a particularly restful weekend because it's lonely work don't get your
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violence out, seriously, but it's lonely work. My father was a newspaper journalist, my late father
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it's all I ever wanted to be. And until leaving newspapers, I was a fully paid up member of the
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Defenders Till I Die brigade. Even when I think Max Mosley was pursuing tabloid newspapers for
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extraordinary invasions of his privacy, I was attacking Max Mosley. I think I did so on
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question time. I was a member of the tribe. I was a member of the cult. I was absolutely
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it my family It my business It my and then over the years of doing this job with your help I come to see just how absolutely bent everything is But every now and then every now and then
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I sit here and I go, maybe I'm mad, and actually this isn't extraordinary
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Maybe I'm mad and this isn't insane. And this is one of those days
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Could you tell me why you think this happens? That's all. And I would quite like sensible answers
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I don't want you to hold back on the grounds that it might be obvious, because when something is as enormous and as egregious as this, every little helps, doesn't it
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I don't want insensible answers, necessarily, but I will tolerate a couple of unsensible ones
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but how can we just tell me how we can live currently in a country
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where one party leader gets hauled over the coals in the most public
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and spectacular fashion for accepting some spectacles from a colleague, a rich colleague
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while another can take a secret 5 million pound gift from a cryptocurrency billionaire
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based in Thailand and it merits barely a mention on radio programmes, television programmes and newspaper front pages
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I want you to explain it to me or to everybody else listening to the programme
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Because if I had woken up today after being asleep for only 10 years, only 10 years
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not 20, not 30, not 40, if I had been asleep for 10 years and I woke up today
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and you presented me with these two stories and the utter, utter chasm in coverage
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I would not believe you. I would not believe you. I would have thought that British journalism was better than that
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And that British journalists were better than that. and that people I have crossed swords with, but still maintained respect for, were better than that
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A £5 million secret gift, secret gift, to a man poised to become Prime Minister
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receiving barely a mention from exactly the same people that thought Armageddon had arrived early
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when the man who is currently Prime Minister was reported to have accepted some free spectacles
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while he was still in opposition. Just explain it to me, because I don't get it
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I don't get it. 0345 6060 973 is the number you need
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And look, I mean, obviously, you have to pretend you don't care
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if whatever it is that these people are selling is something that you love
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It's like with Trump, right? You get the misogyny, you get the racism, you get the climate change denial
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you get the transphobia. So that's fine, but don't demean yourself by pretending that it doesn't matter
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Of course it matters. It just doesn't matter enough to you because you love all the other stuff more
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Five million pounds. Just imagine it was any other politician. Imagine it was a politician you don't like
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or a politician that you are ambivalent about or a politician you've never heard of
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ask yourself how you would, and I know you don't ring me anymore, but I still think about you
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I still care about you. How would you respond if it was a politician
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that you didn't have a sort of fetishistic regard for? What does it say about our democracy
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What does it say about our decency? What does it say about our country
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that he can trouser five million quid in cash, tax-free, not tell anyone, not declare it, not disclose it
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and get away with it in a world where people were calling for Keir Starmer to resign
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over spectacles. What is going on? It's 10.22. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
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The number you need is 0345 6060 973. James O'Brien on LBC
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Four minutes after ten, and that's the sad bit, isn't it? Is, you know, what would we call it, footballification
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We used to believe that everybody played on the same pitch. Everybody played on the same pitch
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I'm obsessed with this, not just because I'm obsessed with footballification, but everybody played by the same rules
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even if you would be biting chunks out of each other before half-time oranges
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And here we are, comparing coverage of some spectacles to coverage of five million pounds
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Would you like to hear a statement from Farage's crew? Here you go. This was a personal, unconditional gift
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that was given before he was elected. That's all right then. Everything has been declared in accordance with the rules
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I think that's probably a wait-and-see pie there. But I don't care whether or not everything has been declared in accordance with the rules
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I want to know why it receives a tiny fraction of the coverage that Keir Starmer's spectacles receive
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Kevin is in Clacton, appropriately enough. Kevin, what would you like to say? Well, you just kind of mentioned footballification, but I got that term from you anyway
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I always do, mate. I always do. Yeah, I know, and it's such a good term. I think this is, you know, like if their player handballs it
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you're all up in arms screaming at the red. That's not true, though, is it? It's not true because when Starmer was announced
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revealed to have taken these spectacles, a lot of people said, well, he had to be squeaky clean
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He didn't just have to be clean. It doesn't matter whether he broke the rules or not
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Perception is nine-tenths of the law. He had to be squeaky, squeaky clean. So no one was really coming out and saying
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this is nothing, this is a great big nothing burger. People were critiquing him
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but obviously... It just reminds me of Maradona's handball. It just reminds me of that
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because the Argentinians are like, he got away with it, he got away with it and that's how we win
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and it's just become about winning and losing and I don't know why the press aren't going after it
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Probably you're better informed than me on that. I have my suspicions. No, I haven't got a clue, mate, honestly
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I mean, we could sit here now and say, well, they obviously want him to be Prime Minister
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They tried Boris Johnson, they got Liz Truss, that hasn't worked out so they're smacking their head against another brick wall
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and I think it might just be sadly as simple and as awful
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as that that would explain that would explain owners that might explain why
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Viscount Rothermere has sent a missive to Ted Verity at the Daily Mail saying
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God this is nowhere near as bad as those spectacles is it let's stick it on page
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507 or why Dick Littlejohn probably won't mention it at all two different things aren't there
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the columnist or the presenter going mad about the spectacles and then choosing not to talk about this is not the same as the
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oligarch owners thinking that their interests whether they're cryptocurrency billionaires or whether they television station owners their interests are going to be best served by having him in downing street I don understand why people on my level are so morally corrupt Yeah I don know either
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I just see that anyone on the right at the minute is generally in favour with the press
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and anyone who's not is out of favour. And like you said, they've been going for Starmer
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and I'm not a huge Labour fan or a huge Starmer fan, but from day one they've been going after him
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It's obvious, and it's so obvious. To me, I'm like, I started taking interest in it all
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and now I'm just becoming really uninterested. I'm like, this is just awful
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You mean a what's-the-point scenario? Yeah. What's the point? What is the point of caring
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What is the point of critiquing Keir Starmer for being foolish in not realising how it would look
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when it was reported that he'd accepted a free suit from a millionaire colleague
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What is the point of caring about standards and decency? You look across the Atlantic, Kevin
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and you realise that... I mean, this is where the King was so brilliant last week, isn't it
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Where he just reminded us that even if everything is going south
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you still have to care. And I'm a bit of a Republican, but I think he absolutely smashed it
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I was like, that's the best job he's ever done since I've been around
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That was excellent work. And now I'm leaning, well, maybe we need more of that
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I'm rethinking everything. If you need a rich donor to buy you your glasses and your clothes
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you're not fit to be Prime Minister. Go on, take a wild guess who said that a couple of years ago
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No idea. Nigel Farage, mate. Nigel flipping Farage. Of course he did
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If you need a rich donor to buy you your glasses and your clothes, you're not fit to be Prime Minister
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But if you need a rich donor to give you five million quid
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for no apparent reason, except, I don't know, maybe he woke up that morning in a very good mood
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then are you fit to be Prime Minister? And they won't ask him. They won't read these quotes back to him
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There might have been one morning where they might have done. So if he'd gone on with Laura Koonsberg on Sunday
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he lost his season ticket apparently, he was booked for the programme, but he didn't turn up. He knew that even she would have to ask her that question on that day
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Next time he goes on... Pre-pass. No question. So what do we care about
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And you sit here thinking, oh, never mind. But it's America. That's the thing that frightens me
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It's looking at what happens when everybody abandons decency. And it starts with the media, actually
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And then it's the colleagues. And then you've got an absolute reprobate running around the corridors of power doing whatever he wants
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making Boris Johnson look responsible. But I want to talk about the five million quid
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I want to talk about the spectacles, and I want you to tell me what is happening or has happened in our country
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That's all. And tell me I'm an idiot. Tell me it's always been like this, and we can have a bit of an argument
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Or tell me that it's no big deal. Tell me that it makes perfect sense. One of them's Prime Minister, one of them's an opposition leader
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Just have a crack at it. Because otherwise it's just going to be me and Kevin and everybody else sitting here rolling our eyes and going
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I mean, I mean, I'm fling. Shush. Oof. Dominic Ellis has your headlines
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James O'Brien on LBC. Three minutes after ten, I mean, the mad thing is, when you think about it
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all the phone-ins we've done expressing shock at what is happening in the United States of America
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and, you know, I don't think it could happen there, we would say
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I thought that was the kind of thing that could only happen in Hungary, or in North Korea
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I thought that the Founding Fathers, when they put the Constitution together, had guarded against such absolute abandonment of decency
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and now we're having a conversation that suggests we could be heading down
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a very similar road how can a senior politician accept a 5 million pound secret donation
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from a foreign based billionaire shortly before announcing policy plans that would enrich that foreign based billionaire
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to wealth beyond our wildest dreams and not get anything like the coverage
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that another politician got for buying a field for his disabled mother
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to keep distressed donkeys in and turning a profit on said field a few years later
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or accepting some spectacles and a suit from a fellow member of Parliament
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a Labour member of the House of Lords. I mean, you see what I mean now
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Do you see what I mean now? Because, listen, I mean, a couple of messages coming in
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but, I mean, Idiot's Corner isn't really big enough for people saying, oh, well, the left went after Keir Starmer
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so now went after Boris Johnson, another writer going after Keir Star
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I can't really deal with people like you because you will never admit
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that you don't care what they do, your heroes, as long as they endorse your racism
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your misogyny, your climate change denial, or as a smaller dish, but still a poisonous one
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your transphobia. There's no point, is there? I mean, I've watched it happen with Trump
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Oh, I don't care about a politician. It's upsetting all the right people
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Five million quid secret donor. How would you feel if a politician that didn't indulge your racism or your anti-Semitism
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or your homophobia or whatever it is. How would you feel if a politician... Oh, well, that'd be outraged
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I'd be resignation. He'd have to go. He'd have to go. When you sit here going, oh, it couldn't happen here
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No, we're better than that. We're a Western liberal democracy. Do you want a little bit more of the statement
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that they gave to us last week when we were asking questions about this
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The two are entirely unrelated. That's the £5 million gift to a man
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who said he wasn't going to go into politics, go back into politics, and then went back into politics after getting the £5 million gift
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The two are entirely unrelated. This gift was given when Nigel was retired from frontline politics
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I think he was chair of Reform UK at the time. A while after the gift was given
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Nigel confirmed he wouldn't stand at the next general election. He then reversed his decision to stand in June
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I've got no way of checking the chronology here. I'll just read out what they're saying. Secret £5 million gift to a man who would be prime minister
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Now, listen, we could speculate all day long on whether or not it is feasible
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that you would make a gift like that in expectation of absolutely nothing in return
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No, I don't want anything. Here's five million pounds. I think he's claimed it was for security reasons
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while simultaneously claiming, after receiving it, that he couldn't hold parliamentary constituency surgeries in Clacton
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because of security reasons. But it doesn't matter, does it? I want to find one of these messages
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there's not enough coming in, it's not like the good old days when everyone thought Brexit was going to go brilliantly
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pretending that it doesn't matter because you often get accused when you pursue my politics
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of looking down on people who voted for Brexit or looking down on people who vote
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according to whatever the Sun or the Daily Mail has told them
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the opposite is true the opposite is true, nobody holds those people in lower regard
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than the people manipulating them and harvesting their votes and support. Literally nobody
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Those of us on the other side of the political divide, they give credit where credit is due
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The benefit of the debt, everybody's capable of decency if they're given half a chance
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But if you want to make a bunch of money in this country, whether online or on Fleet Street
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just pander to everybody's worst imaginable prejudices. Five million pounds. versus three pairs of spectacles and a suit. Make it make sense
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Josephine's in Westminster. Josephine, what would you like to say? Hi, James. Well, I think I see it on two levels, really
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So firstly, regarding the journalists, I think Simon Marks provided the answer to that last week
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when he talked about the journalists who were basically complicit in keeping Trump in power in the States
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because they have access to his phone number, and he rings them up and talks to them for hours about policy
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And I think the journalists here are looking over the pond and they want a similar situation
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So they're thinking Farage might get into power and they want that level of access when he does
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And then I think there's also a certain class of people who are essentially almost jealous
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They see the corruption. Hang on. Pause, pause, pause, pause, pause, pause. Because I think there's something in that
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And Simon Marks almost speaks ex cathedra when he pontificates on such matters
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But why would you lose access to him but not lose access to Starmer
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I mean, they've been embarked upon the most extraordinary... Every Labour leader endures hatchet job after hatchet job
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after donkey sanctuary, after spectacles, after dead father maligned in the pages of the Daily Mail
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So, I mean, I subscribe to the access argument, but I don't think it covers all of the territory that we're exploring here
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Well, the rest, I think, is just money. It's just greed, essentially. I mean, if you look at the policies that Labour are bringing in
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I'm not Starmer's greatest fan, but things like the renter's rights bill, I mean those are things that should have been enshrined in UK law decades ago
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They make us stand out against any other European country. And you read headlines like the Times saying that there aren't going to be any rental properties left in this country
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when every other European country that has these kind of laws manifestly has a rental market that is flourishing
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I've got that story in front of me. I think there is going to be a short-term negative impact of this legislation
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I am, but anyone who has any knowledge of economics and economic history sees that these things tend to somehow balance themselves out over time
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And once you create a market, it's just regulation that comes in, short-term effect
32:08
And then in the long run, you end up with an actually vibrant market that works for everyone
32:12
So are we actually, and this is where I worry about that question of condescension
32:18
Are we actually wondering how many British people can be so silly or can be so unable to see what is unfolding under their very noses
32:27
Five million pounds. No, nothing to see here. I think there's been a concerted effort in this country over decades, if not centuries, to really keep people, essentially, to not educate people and not give them access to the truth
32:42
and worse still not give them access to the information so people see five million
32:46
just like they saw 250 million on the side of a bus and and they kind of they have no sense of how
32:52
how big that is in comparison so in comparison to starma because the numbers aren't presented like
32:58
that they're presented like oh it's just five million it's just you know it's just that amount
33:02
and it's not presented next to starma next to the amount that starma apparently was given
33:07
you know so there's the comparison he wasn't he wasn't given any money he accepted 2485
33:13
thousand pounds worth of spectacles and suit 2485 pounds and i worse still i think there's
33:22
actually a certain class of a class in this country who have access to power and to the media
33:28
who almost see this kind of corruption and think oh okay actually we do want that because why do
33:34
Why do you think we're in this business? Why do you think we're in this business? We can get a slice of the pie
33:38
I mean, if you look at what happened during COVID, people literally saw COVID and thought
33:42
how can I make money out of this? And almost wanted to, like, they were almost happy
33:46
that someone like Boris was in power because it meant that they could be corrupt
33:50
and take as much as they could from the state and bleed the straight dry
33:54
And that's what's happened time and time again. You see it with the privatisation of things like water
34:00
I mean, these are fundamental things that have been brewing in our society for a long time
34:04
and that has kept the scene for that. And you can't do the really bad stuff unless you've ceded the ground beforehand
34:10
And we've seen what happened in the United States of America. You mentioned water companies
34:16
The Asset Class by Hetty O'Brien looks at how private equity turned capitalism against itself
34:22
And Hetty will be joining me at about half past 12 today, Josephine
34:26
to talk about her new book. I have a feeling it'll be right up your strasser
34:30
And it looks at some of the stuff that Josephine just touched on. If you are in the business of making money, that's all that you care about
34:38
Then that's all that you care about. You don't care about whether or not the rivers are full of sewage
34:43
You don't care about whether or not care homes are unfit for purpose. You don't care about whether or not the railways run
34:50
You just care about money. You want money. And if you can make more money by having a politician in your pocket
34:57
then you will try to get a politician in your pocket which is one form of political donation
35:02
to political parties. Some people I think make a ton of money
35:07
and want to give something back to society. I can't think of many off the top of my head
35:11
I think Clive Hollick, former Labour peer he was quite a good example of this
35:15
Bill Gates I suppose in some ways before he was deeply tarnished
35:20
by his appearances in the Epstein files. Sometimes you make a ton of money and you think I'd like society to be a better place
35:26
Other times you make a ton of money and therefore you make donations accordingly
35:30
Other times you make a ton of money and you think, do you know what I'd really like? A ton more money. And then you make your donations accordingly
35:37
And the rest of us sit here, I don't know, like mugs? James is in Leeds
35:41
James, what would you like to say? Hello, James. Oh, God, I'm so angry
35:45
I've been angry about this ever since I've heard about this. And how do you maintain
35:49
forgive me for the crassness of this question, how do you maintain your anger when all around you are staying calm or not caring
35:58
Well, I'm just becoming hopeless, James. I'm sorry, but I'm just becoming hopeless
36:04
I find that ultimately, I think, with this story, the reason I said I was going to call in
36:11
is that the size of the donation is shocking and the other donations as well
36:19
But the key to all of this is why that money is being given and the potential dangers to what could happen if we had a prime minister who was prepared to deregulate the cryptocurrency market
36:40
And apparently the figures show that this guy, this donor, could become the 30th richest man in the world
36:48
Now, we have no proof that there's, you know, that there's a direct link between the donations and what may happen
36:55
No, and that will be denied by all involved. It's just a coincidence that the bloke who gave him five million quid secretly
37:02
will become one of the richest men on the planet as a consequence of policies that he will introduce
37:07
That's what we're being asked to believe. It's important that we understand what we're being asked to believe
37:11
I make no judgment. I make no comment on the plausibility of what we're being asked to believe
37:15
but we're being asked to believe that it's an extraordinary coincidence. Yes yes and on the other hand you know you have I think I believe a millionaire himself Lord Ali who gave Well what you know was he doing that because he wanted some financial return on that
37:36
You know, it just, that doesn't hold up, you know. It doesn't matter, does it? That's the thing
37:41
I don't know whether we sound naive or defeated or, I mean, you know
37:46
the people who claim that they don't care or that they welcome this or that there's nothing to see here
37:52
I mean, how deep do you have to dig into them to actually understand how they can't care about the things that you care about
38:00
Regardless of who's doing them, someone gives Keir Starmer secretly five million quid
38:06
and then by complete coincidence, Keir Starmer announces that when he becomes Prime Minister
38:10
he's going to bring in laws that will make you one of the richest people on the planet. How can you not care about that
38:15
Well, you can't care if you don't know. But they do know
38:20
it's the fact that, you know, I'm sure that a large proportion of the electorate
38:26
who are going to go out and vote the day after tomorrow... Yeah, no, whoa, whoa, whoa, we're not saying anything about that
38:32
It's just me being paranoid, I hear you, but we're not discussing anything to do with Thursday's elections
38:39
But, I mean, we can certainly speculate about the sagacity or otherwise of our fellow men and women
38:46
And I wish, again, that we had the technology to count. How many people are hearing about this
38:54
I mean, I've done it on the show. I did it on the show towards the end of last week. But then you get the long bank holiday weekend
38:59
He manages to duck out of interviews that had previously been scheduled
39:02
without providing any meaningful excuse. He offers up some challengeable claim about his own personal security
39:09
which was also the reason he gave for why he couldn't have surgeries in his constituency
39:15
So either he spent the money on security or he hasn't spent the money on security. And, of course, the claim that his home had been firebonded, a terrible, terrible claim, that so far we've been unable to establish which police service that was reported to
39:29
And it will just go away like it did with Trump. I think when you look back on Donald Trump, what's the thing that you think should have broken it
39:39
Is it the grabbing women by their, I'm not going to say the word on the radio, boasting about sexual assaults effectively
39:47
Something that Nigel Farage defended, of course, and inevitably. Was it that? Was that when you thought, well, that's got to be it now
39:52
Or you look back now and think, well, that should have been it
39:56
That should have finished things. The abuse of the disabled newspaper reporter doing a sort of impression of his symptoms
40:08
I come back often to the Gold Star military veteran, the dead soldier who happened to be Muslim
40:15
so Donald Trump insulted his parents. Or John McCain, the military hero
40:22
that Donald Trump insulted. I mean, how many of those milestones on the road to what they have now
40:28
were visible from space? And we don't yet know the full extent
40:34
of Donald Trump's financial dealings. I mean, it is an extraordinary coincidence
40:39
that large bets are placed on prediction markets It's shortly before announcements come out of the Oval Office
40:47
It's an extraordinary coincidence that members of his family have made huge sums of money
40:52
from cryptocurrency investments that have benefited enormously from him being president. But when you think back to Trump
41:00
what things do you think of as the things that shouldn't have just set the alarm bells ringing
41:07
They should have had everybody rushing for the fire exit. Because here we are
41:13
Here we are. Five million quid? What for? Nothing. I expect nothing in return
41:19
Five million quid? How do you make your money? Cryptocurrency. Farage doing anything with cryptocurrency
41:23
Yeah, it's going to make it even more lucrative so that I could become one of the richest people on the planet
41:29
Complete coincidence that you gave him five million quid, though. Yes, absolutely a complete coincidence
41:34
I have no reason to challenge that. I'm just counting. James O'Brien on LBC
41:40
12.52 is the time. Patriotic millionaires, they call themselves, and they get a fraction of the coverage
41:46
that is secured by the people that secretly fund Tufton Street lobby groups
41:50
masquerading as think tanks, because one is spending a bunch of money on enriching themselves further
41:55
and the other is spending a bunch of money on supporting politics that would see them pay more tax
42:01
I'll leave you to work out why one of those groups gets a lot more coverage than the other
42:06
But why on earth would a story about £5 million in a secret donation to a prominent British politician
42:12
get less coverage than a story about three pairs of spectacles in a declared donation
42:19
after advice was sought to a British politician. And listen, I mean, I'm going to have to
42:26
keep an eye on this for a long time, I imagine. Not just this story, but what it represents
42:32
And it's fine. It's absolutely fine. I'd rather you were listening to me and pretending that you don't care
42:36
or pretending that you love it than listening to the echo chamber
42:41
you spend the rest of your life in where you'd be enraged by Keir Starmer's spectacles
42:45
and supremely comfortable with Nigel Farage's five million. Five million Farage. And if you don't care about that
42:54
you don't actually care about anything. But here you are, proving your patriotism
43:00
by hanging a tatty flag from your local roundabout lamppost. Jordan's in Wembley. Jordan, what would you like to say
43:06
Hi. Yeah, I'd just like to say I'm not really surprised that, you know
43:10
Keir Starmer's got more backlash compared to Nigel Farage. I think it's quite normal for people to have their favourites
43:16
and to work within their conflict of interest. I mean, I'm not surprised, but I'm shocked
43:23
I'm shocked at the comparison that occurred to me this morning. It's a £5 million secret donation versus a few pairs of spectacles
43:35
and people who do what I do for a living had heart attacks about the latter
43:40
and have said not a syllable about the former. I think what surprises me, Jordan
43:46
is that you haven't even had lip service being paid to the story. You haven't even... Well, this looks a bit rum
43:52
Perhaps we'll ask him about this next time he's in the studio or this is... Not even, as far as I'm aware
43:58
had some very prominent critics of Keir Starmer even acknowledging the existence of the story
44:04
which is different from normal service. It's almost as if they know it's so disgusting
44:10
they can't afford to mention it at all. Yeah, I mean, I assume they maybe think he, you know
44:16
not restore, sorry. What's his party called again? It's so hard to keep up
44:22
The Brexit party, is it? No, that was the last one. UKIP, UKIP. No, that was the one before
44:27
Oh, come on. Reform, reform, reform. There we go, yeah. So I guess because they assume they're going to win, it's just not in favour of them to really speak out
44:37
And once again, it's kind of normal human nature. It's not normal human nature, mate
44:42
The normal human nature is to be even more let down when someone you admire does something bad
44:47
than you are when someone that you don't admire does something bad
44:51
Have a little listen to this. This is Nigel Farage on LBC in September of last year Tether is a stable coin stable coins are the way which money goes from conventional currencies through into cryptocurrencies and back again
45:05
Tether is about to be valued as a $500 billion company. You know, stablecoins
45:12
crypto, this world is enormous. And I've been urging for years that London should embrace it
45:19
We should become a global trading centre for this stuff under proper regulation. And the governor of the Bank of England
45:24
earlier this week indicated that nobody, no individual, should be allowed to have more than £10,000 worth of
45:30
stable coins, to which some of my friends have said, shall we just emigrate? Why is the bank so out of touch
45:36
Why is it behaving like a dinosaur? Why not get with the 21st century
45:41
These new technologies aren't going away. I don't know if he knows it or not. He's already emigrated
45:46
mate. He lives in Thailand, and he gave you £5 million while owning 12
45:50
of the company that you were just bigging up in an unpaid advert live on this radio station
45:54
So the bloke that gave Nigel Farage five million pounds, secretly, owns 12% of the company
46:01
that Nigel Farage is advertising here. Tether is a stable coin. Stable coins are the way
46:07
which money goes from conventional currencies through internet currencies. That's going to be great
46:12
He lives in Thailand. The bloke who literally... Do you think you should have mentioned it
46:15
during that interview? Some of my friends... I'll tell you who's really cross about this
46:20
The one who just gave me five million quid. and we sit here being all British
46:25
Well, we're not, are we, though? We're not being all British. The British used to hate this kind of thing
46:32
There is no need to bribe or twist, thank God, the British journalist
46:38
for seeing what the man will do, unbribed, there's no occasion to
46:43
I never understood that before. That was like my dad's profession. That's what I wanted to do when I grew up
46:50
I still do want to do it. if and when I grow up. I always thought that was really unfair
46:55
I think it's 19th century. Sounds a bit Victorian, doesn't it? I always thought that was really unfair
46:59
Don't laugh at me. This is a noble... My dad was a noble man. Lots of journalists that I've known over the years
47:06
are good and noble people. And now I am watching a man
47:11
advertising a cryptocurrency company that his secret £5 million donor owns 12% of
47:21
and people electing not even to mention the existence of the story
47:28
My friends. And the governor of the Bank of England earlier this week
47:32
indicated that nobody, no individual, should be allowed to have more than £10,000 worth of stable coins
47:38
to which some of my friends have said, shall we just emigrate? Some of my friends have said, shall we just emigrate
47:43
Which friends, mate? Which friends? Because he can't be Christopher Harbourn. He's already emigrated
47:48
He uses a Thai name to do business. in Thailand. And he just gave you, shortly before that
47:54
appearance on LBC, he gave you five million pounds. We can only speculate on how scandalous
48:03
and outraged the story would be if he'd accepted three pairs of spectacles worth something
48:09
in the region of two and a half grand. That's it. I mean, he's a complete coincidence that the company
48:14
that he chose to talk up there live on the radio is the
48:18
company that 12% of which is owned by the man who had recently given him a secret donation of 5
48:24
million pounds and it's not invisible this story it hasn't disappeared but the people who are
48:32
exercised by it are the people you would expect or hope to be exercised by it or four of us
48:39
the people who were or pretended to be or were genuinely outraged by Keir Starmer's spectacles
48:46
have been absolutely silent. And that is, I don't even know what the word would be
48:54
but that is a little bit like looking the other way when Donald Trump abused the disabled man
48:59
boasted about sexual assault or insulted war veterans. James O'Brien on LBC
49:06
It is three minutes after 11 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
49:10
there's a fascinating correlation almost be careful what I say, who was I talking to
49:20
about this the other day, see if you can remember because I presume it was on the radio the people at the very top of society
49:26
and the people at the very bottom of society are the two freest constituencies
49:30
of all it may have been on a full disclosure episode everybody in between
49:35
the sort of absolutely ginormous middle classes are constrained by, I mean, everything from social traditions and mores
49:46
financial considerations, whatever it may be. But people at the very bottom of society
49:52
sort of, as depicted in the television programme, shameless, and then people at the very top
49:58
people are so rich they can do whatever they want without any real fear of consequences, are free
50:03
And everybody else is in some way constrained. and what constrains us in many ways civilizes us
50:12
Without constraints, we are civilized. But I just kind of remember when I was a kid
50:19
and I was a boy, how often we went out as a family
50:25
and how normal our timetable was. I've talked about my dad quite a lot today
50:32
He was, as I mentioned, a newspaper journalist And so it was during an era where you couldn't be a newspaper journalist without spending quite a lot of time in the pub
50:41
I think I had my first ever pint in a pub in Birmingham that was bought for me by the head of the Serious Crime Squad
50:47
despite the fact that I was West Midlands Police Serious Crime Squad, who it turned out were not exactly lily white in their approach to law and order
50:56
but I was underage, so I perhaps could have seen a clue on the horizon about what was going on there
51:00
but I never went to the pub as a child particularly it was a sort of bottle of dandelion and burdock
51:07
and a packet of crisps in the car on the rare occasions that mum and dad would go in
51:11
I'm trying to remember the restaurant visits that we'd do and they were real treats, you know
51:19
I mean mum and dad obviously went out for dinner a bit and we'd have a babysitter
51:24
but nowhere near as often as I was doing 10 years ago, say
51:29
I read an article the other day about a reset in socialising
51:36
and it suggested that we did a lot less of it in the 70s and 80s
51:42
and then, for reasons we did a lot more of it subsequently
51:48
and now it might be going back again so, you know, eating out
51:54
or going to a bar or a pub I don't know how we'd measure this
51:59
Do the numbers exist? That we've been going through something of a golden era
52:04
Even as, of course, pubs have started closing at a rate of knots. We would all spend more of our disposable income
52:10
Did we have more disposable? Well, we had more disposable income for that period than we did in the 70s
52:17
Things started picking up in the 80s. And then by the 90s, we're out all the time
52:22
I mention this because there are two stories in the news today pubs have been closing at a rate of almost two every day reports the Daily Telegraph which is a reflection of roughly where things have been for a while now
52:36
although the Daily Telegraph, understandably, are very keen to blame it all on Rachel Reeves
52:40
as if until this government got in, pubs were opening up and down the country at a rate of knots
52:45
And the other story, in a different paper, is that the pint in London
52:53
the um i don't think it's an average yet but it is becoming ever more commonplace
53:01
where you will spend and if you're listening to this in the north you might want to sit down
53:06
you'll spend more than 10 pounds on a pint the 10 pound pint is here the average is still about
53:16
six pound 48 but by the time you factored in some of the fancy schmancy venues and some of the
53:21
fancy schmancy brews, you get the you get the £10 pint. I've had an
53:30
expensive pint in some relatively normal pubs, but it's your sort of premium
53:35
craft beer IPA cliche, censorious dad dot com pint. I don't remember ever paying
53:45
more than £10 a pint. But more and more people are. I can't help seeing these two stories as being very intimately related to each other
54:00
Most pubs are not going to be charging over £10 a pint, but it has become commonplace enough to merit a news story
54:08
And then you've got the other story about pubs shutting. And I've touched on this with you before, because I think it's really interesting
54:18
I love, more than anything else on this programme, I love talking to you about change
54:25
I love change. I love transformation. It's the opposite way, traditionally, of doing radio phone-in programmes
54:33
A traditional radio phone-in host will be presenting the same programme in 2026
54:37
that they were presenting in 1996. They just take it in turns to decide whether it's travellers or migrants
54:43
or single mothers or people on welfare. Who's going to get a kicking today
54:47
and you just roll the wheel in the morning and you come on air and you go, oh, aren't those migrants awful
54:52
Or you roll the wheel again on a Wednesday and you come on air and go, oh, aren't those people claiming disability benefit awful
54:58
And you roll the wheel again and you go, oh, aren't those single mothers awful? Single mothers get a fairly easy time of it at the moment, don't they
55:04
That's probably something that will change in the next couple of years or so
55:07
although possibly, possibly society has moved on sufficiently. I suppose all the children of single mothers have grown up
55:15
and won't tolerate the bigotry and hatred that was engendered against their mothers 10, 20, 30 years ago
55:22
So I love transformation, and I like conversations that recognise sometimes uncomfortable change
55:29
things that we don't think we want to change, and we think that because they are changing, there must be something wrong
55:35
But a lot of change is incremental. A lot of change is simply society changing
55:42
our relationship with alcohol is changing all the time that the you know that the days of
55:49
everybody thinking it was um absolutely fine to get stocious on a regular basis are behind us
55:57
we are bombarded for good or for ill because a lot of the public health messaging is cancelled out
56:03
by the amount of money being spent on advertising the stuff that we're being warned about but a lot
56:08
of information and education about alcohol has reached us. Changes to legislation and drink
56:15
driving in the 1970s and possibly into the 1980s was absolutely endemic. Extraordinary to think
56:22
that they had to run massive advertising campaigns to discourage people from getting behind the wheel
56:27
of their car with the children in the back and driving home from the pub. I mean, genuinely
56:35
It was so widespread. This is what I mean by transformation. Do you see why that is fascinating
56:41
So, not only would you get behind the wheel of the car having had six pints, but your children would be in the back
56:46
and none of you would be wearing seatbelts. That's the country I grew up in
56:50
That almost sounded nostalgic. That was normal when I was growing up
56:57
Not the drink driving in my family, but the widespread practice being so endemic that the government felt the need to advertise
57:08
the dangers of drink driving. That's kind of gone away now. And the seatbelts have gone away now
57:16
The idea that you need to be compelled or ordered... I just find myself wondering whether..
57:22
whether the country's relationship with the pub, or with a pub, has actually reached critical mass
57:33
whether actually we are no longer going to be a nation of pub goers
57:41
And there are two or three questions thrown up by this. The first is, what will that do
57:49
What will that do? I don't want to sound silly, or any sillier than usual
57:53
or unintentionally silly, but some of my loveliest memories were in pubs
57:58
I courted Mrs. O'Brien in a pub, well, in various pubs, actually
58:03
Some of my firmest friendships were formed in pubs. Some of my funniest times unfolded in pubs
58:09
I love pubs from the age, well, pretty much from when I arrived in Manchester
58:14
before I even went to university, I started spending a lot of time in pubs
58:19
The pubs of Chalton come hardy. Still have a very warm spot in my heart
58:23
And I'm not a sociable person. If you, oh, drop me in the middle of a birthday party where I don't know many people
58:31
It's my idea of hell on earth, but in a pub, someone at the next table starts talking to you, you talk back
58:37
One of the maddest experiences of my life was in a pub in Romilly, just outside Stockport
58:42
where I found myself spending an entire afternoon with three men who'd spent the previous evening
58:46
nicking the copper off a church roof up the road, and I checked the local paper. It was true
58:52
No, I didn't report them. So, I mean, obviously as I've got older, I've done it less and less
59:00
But my grandma was a publican. She was a pub landlady, but I never knew her
59:05
So pubs have been part of my middle-class, centrist dad cliched existence
59:10
in ways that are probably a bit out of the ordinary, a bit different
59:16
So what will it do when they are no longer... Well, there's three questions
59:23
So the first is why did you stop going? And what difference did it make to your life
59:27
positive or negative or both 0345 6060973 is the number that you need
59:35
what gap well no gaps are negative isn't it so why did you stop going
59:44
and what difference did it make ok I think the question even before that is
59:51
are we in the midst of an unstoppable decline I mean, listen, of course, Chancellors of the Exchequer can always do more to help all
59:59
businesses, but what you can't do is stop the tide from coming in
1:00:07
Is the pub industry now in a place where we're recalibrating on a national scale
1:00:16
So certain types of pubs will survive, but a lot of the older traditional models of pub
1:00:24
will disappear. So that's the political or the social angle. So we've got the personal and we've got the political
1:00:34
The personal is the difference it made to you when you stop going
1:00:38
The political is, are we actually looking at now a nationwide decline
1:00:43
that we're all going to rub our hands about and be, not rub our hands
1:00:47
we're all going to, you know, what's the word, clutch our pearls or ring our hands, ring our hands
1:00:52
But actually we're just watching society change. We're just watching society embrace less pub-based socialising
1:01:02
But then there's the third question, is what difference will that make
1:01:08
What hole does a pub leave in a life or a village
1:01:14
I mean, an abandoned church, in fact, it's a former synagogue in the news at the moment
1:01:23
as a site of another arson attack, it would appear, in the early hours of this morning
1:01:28
I don't have the same emotional relationship with former mosques or synagogues or temples
1:01:36
that I have with an abandoned church. I went to church a lot as a kid. So an abandoned church speaks to me of social change
1:01:44
It's crikey. I spend a lot of time in Norfolk, as you know, where you can buy churches and turn them into houses
1:01:49
Quite a lot of people have. I look at these churches. which is sometimes in, I mean, I'm not exaggerating when I say they are in the middle of nowhere
1:01:59
There's one in particular where I think they do one service now once a month
1:02:04
on the last Sunday of every month. And I used to be on one of my walks, one of my favourite walks in Norfolk
1:02:10
And I used to look at it and just imagine what an enormous role that church played in that area's life
1:02:20
Because no one had cars. You would walk to church, and the nearest village was a 40-minute walk
1:02:28
I mean, you have these churches. It's not just in Norfolk. It just happens to be a part of England that I know rather well
1:02:34
I look at these churches, which are almost like a ship in the middle of an ocean
1:02:40
A church that has been dropped from the sky, equidistant from five or six different villages
1:02:45
all of which are quite far away from it. And on Sundays, everybody would convene
1:02:51
Everyone. You'd have processions, I imagine. I'm thinking like mid to late 19th century, maybe early 20th
1:02:56
You'd have processions of people going to church. And no one could ever imagine anything being different
1:03:03
No one could ever imagine any of those churches being shut. Whereas now, I mean, the lucky ones have been turned into houses
1:03:10
The unlucky ones have got trees growing out the roof. And it's a little bit of me that wonders whether pubs are going the same way
1:03:17
We just do not go to the pub in the way that we used to
1:03:22
and I wonder what gap that will leave. I mean, I've never done a phone-in
1:03:26
about what gap the closures of churches have left in our lives or other places of worship
1:03:30
but perhaps I could have done, I should have done. What does it do to a community when a pub shuts
1:03:39
Because if I'm right about the first thing, which is that we are on a period of incremental
1:03:45
and relatively straightforward decline and closure, then the second thing is actually a difficult question to answer
1:03:51
because you can't ring me up and tell me, oh, oh, well, it will do this and it will do that
1:03:56
and it will do the other. And I say, well, when's the last time you went to a pub? And you say 1978. Do you see what I mean
1:04:01
Are they just, are they just, is it natural, this decline? I always get there in the end, Keith
1:04:07
That's the word I want. Is pub closures part of a natural decline
1:04:13
Or has it, are they becoming, I mean, are they victims of something more sinister
1:04:19
Something political? So your personal relationship, what would your life be without a pub
1:04:27
Why did you stop going to the pub? What difference did it make when you did
1:04:31
Why could you never? 0345 6060 973. And is this decline actually natural
1:04:39
Because I sit here wringing my hands about the £10 pint and the two pubs a day
1:04:44
And, you know, I like pubs. I happen to live in a part of London that has several excellent pubs
1:04:50
I'm very lucky, actually, as it goes. But which pubs are shutting
1:04:56
Is it the pubs that are, if you like, natural wastage, a natural decline
1:05:02
And then what difference would it make or has it made? What will it do to society to have fewer pubs
1:05:09
I think that's enough for you to get your teeth into, isn't it? If you hit the numbers now, you will get through
1:05:14
Slightly different conversation from the one that we had in the last hour, but no less interesting for that. 0-3-4-5-6-0-6-0-9-7-3
1:05:22
Churches used to be everywhere. They're not anymore. And there would have been
1:05:25
had there been radio phone-ins during that period, there would have been an awful lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth
1:05:30
about the closure of churches and the impact it was going to have on our society. What impact will the closure of pubs have on our society
1:05:38
Is it having on our society? Is it natural what's going on
1:05:43
And then give me your personal on this as well, not just the political. 0345 6060 973
1:05:49
James O'Brien on LBC Has anything replaced it? Sort of community nucleus
1:05:57
Community centre Some parts of, where was I recently? And the pub sort of doubles up as a village shop
1:06:04
I was in Scotland What replaces it? If it's like a centre of a community
1:06:10
And it shuts What happens next? 22 after 11 is the time
1:06:16
Oh, Scotland it is. Alex is in Glasgow. Alex, what made you pick up the phone? Hello, James
1:06:21
I hope you're well. Very well indeed. Thank you. Well, I was just listening to you
1:06:26
and again, I was reading that there are two pubs a day
1:06:30
closing somewhere in the UK. And again, I was listening to what you were saying
1:06:35
and I was agreeing with you. You know, the price of things, pints going through the roof
1:06:40
Yes. You were talking about the £10 pint down in London. Well, Edinburgh is very like that
1:06:46
I live in Glasgow, but I go through to Edinburgh a lot, especially during the festival
1:06:52
And the prices skyrocket. It's eye-watering how much you're paying for basically a pint of cheap lager
1:06:58
You know, this isn't even craft beers. This is really your bog-standard lager
1:07:03
or heavy, as we call it in Scotland, you call it bitter. And it's just ridiculous
1:07:08
But on your last thing there about what happens when communities lose their pub
1:07:14
I've noticed in places like the Western Highlands, the community has taken over the pub
1:07:20
I think this has also happened in the north of England, where the local community have
1:07:23
actually clubbed together and bought the pub Well this is why I find half of your ysis fascinating and the other half perhaps less fascinating because there is going to be wastage The kind of places you describe in Edinburgh are presumably
1:07:36
making quite good money selling. Oh, yeah. That business model works, but that business
1:07:42
model... My oldest son is a bar manager in Edinburgh for quite a posh pub, and they make a lot
1:07:48
of cash. But the days of, you know, the sort of sticky floor and the
1:07:52
table in the corner and the one man and his dog, and those
1:07:56
pubs are obviously not washing their faces anymore. And I don't think it's necessarily
1:08:02
and I always have sympathy for people losing their jobs or their livelihoods or their homes
1:08:06
but I don't necessarily think it's a national tragedy for failing pubs to close
1:08:13
No, I agree with you with that, but it's sad to see them go, like yourself. My formative years
1:08:18
were spent around about pubs and clubs and things like that. I've made many
1:08:22
many friends. But it's sad to see churches go? If we were having this conversation
1:08:26
100 years ago, there'd probably be a greater rationale for saying, well, churches are closing, everyone's going to start
1:08:32
thieving and committing adultery and accepting secret £5 million gifts from curious..
1:08:38
Well, maybe Nige could actually save a couple of these pubs by investing
1:08:42
his money in them. He needs it all for security, mate. Oh, right
1:08:47
He knows a lot about Edinburgh pubs, because the last time he was up here, that's how he had to
1:08:52
barricade himself into Edinburgh pubs. Here is a question. Here is a question for the ages
1:08:57
East of England, 16 closures. West Midlands, 11 closures. South West, 13 closures
1:09:03
North West, 18 closures. Scotland, 41 closures. East Midlands, 10 closures. North East, 2 closures
1:09:09
London, 17 closures. Yorkshire and the Humber, 10 closures. Wales, 3 openings
1:09:17
What is happening in Wales? Perhaps Wales are getting better paid jobs
1:09:23
Could be that. I don't know what it is. Why on earth would the number of pubs be going up
1:09:28
It could be what you allude to, actually. And it could be old pubs reopening
1:09:33
because the community have decided to do something about it. Or I could be talking out the top of my head
1:09:38
I would quite like to know, though, why Wales is the only part of the United Kingdom
1:09:42
wherein pubs have gone up in the last year as opposed to gone down
1:09:47
Thank you, Alex. What does it leave, though? Does it leave anything? I don't know. I'm glad to hear that the pubs of Chalton come harder
1:09:53
are still going strong. Thank you for that, Raj. Ian's on the Isle of Wight
1:09:58
Ian, what would you like to say? All right, mate. How's it going? It's all good. What made you pick up the phone
1:10:04
Because you always manage to hit whatever's been bugging me right on the spot
1:10:10
So I think, basically, I've thought for a long time that the breakdown in British society
1:10:16
is directly related to the decline of the pub. Back in the day, you sat at home
1:10:25
you know, people didn't have mobile phones, there's no social media, and you sat there and you thought to yourself
1:10:29
what shall I do tonight? I'm really bored, it's nothing on TV, there's no sky
1:10:33
You go down the pub to see what your mates were doing, and that would be Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday
1:10:40
and Super Sunday as well. Whereas now, it's like people don't need to do that
1:10:48
Also, the reason that they don't, like even... And then there was a while that people would just go out on Friday, Saturday night
1:10:55
But, you know, I'm a DJ, so I see this happening all the time. They're not bothering on a Friday or Saturday night
1:11:01
Literally, because it's just too expensive. What are you saying? £10 a pint somewhere
1:11:06
Why are they opening up in Wales? I mean the numbers are not
1:11:11
you know absolutely huge but Wales seems to be bucking the more general trend
1:11:16
I don't think that there's more money in Wales or less distraction or less social
1:11:22
media, I don't know, I mean it's a side order It's just an anomaly
1:11:25
It could just be a glitch But like you you talk to like these politicians
1:11:32
and people, I have a way to fix it Can I tell you
1:11:38
Go on, yeah, of course you can. I've got a feeling this isn't going to be a deadly serious suggestion, Ian
1:11:42
but prove me wrong. It is actually a deadly serious. Now, do you remember when Richie did that eat out to dine out or whatever
1:11:53
Right, this was during, like, a COVID thing, social distancing, right? I know the place where I worked, daytimes, DJing
1:12:02
they've never had it so good as that. During that period, yes
1:12:07
during that period. I mean, daytime DJing must be a bit of a trip
1:12:14
No, no, no, it's the way forward. It's difficult because people weren't allowed to dance
1:12:19
but social distancing, forget it. But, like, I just made the point, what they need to do
1:12:23
you need to speak to Rachel Reeves, get her to cut... I haven't done the figures
1:12:29
Oh, don't worry about it. Not at Rishi Sunak. Like, cut duty on, you know, on..
1:12:38
But why? Listen, listen, listen. I can't listen. I've got the news to go to
1:12:43
You're taking ages. Spit it out. Quickly, cut the duty on alcohol in pubs
1:12:48
and quadruple, triple the duty on alcohol in supermarkets. Therefore, people will think
1:12:57
I have to go out if I need a drink. You make an interesting suggestion
1:13:02
And, in fact, the first thing that the pub industry should do is sign up a Tufton Street lobby group
1:13:06
Masquerading is a think tank. They could do some secret donations. They seem very popular at the moment, not naming any names, Nigel
1:13:11
But get them to lobby government in order to protect the pub industry
1:13:16
to the detriment, quite possibly, of the customers. But, nonetheless, it would be to the benefit of the pub owners
1:13:20
This one, I think, would be... I don't know. But what gap does it leave is the crucial question, isn't it
1:13:25
What hole does it leave in a community? and that idea of a pub
1:13:31
It's a third space as well. It's a great point made by Kev
1:13:35
I shall share that with you a little further in a moment. And as Tim points out, or at least as he asks
1:13:39
is the Lawnswood Arms or the Market Tavern still open? And why does that demonstrate a particular level of attention
1:13:46
to this radio programme and this radio presenter? Answer, they're both pups that were at various times
1:13:54
in the dim and distant past run by my late grandmother, and neither of them exist anymore
1:13:58
The market's heaven. I don't think the building is even there. And the Lawnswood Arms, I'm delighted to tell you
1:14:03
is now a Hickory's Smokehouse offering authentic Southern-style barbecue, a dedicated kids' menu
1:14:09
and a sports bar, along with dog-friendly spaces. So would that have counted as a pub closure
1:14:16
When it went from being a pub to being a kind of themed restaurant? I honestly don't know
1:14:20
Half past 11 is the time. Dominic Ellis has your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC
1:14:25
It's 33 minutes after 11. I wonder whether I was a little bit, um, what would the word be
1:14:32
A little bit cowardly at the top of this hour. The question I'm really asking is whether or not the closure of pubs
1:14:40
in its current form is something we should all be mourning. It's presented to us as a national tragedy
1:14:47
And, of course, if it's in certain newspapers, it will be presented to us as all Rachel Reeves' fault
1:14:52
or Keir Starmer fault or possibly Gary Lineker But actually that the question isn it It took me a while to get there But the question is whether or not this is actually a tragedy A few of you pointing out that alcoholism and the rest of it
1:15:06
are going to be affected by the ease of access to alcohol
1:15:12
And even if you're not an alcoholic, but you're not doing your health any good by popping in for a couple of sharpeners on your way home every evening
1:15:18
I mean, there's quite a lot of argument for saying that the closure of pubs is quite a good thing
1:15:23
with the constant caveat, of course, that that's terrible if you're working in one or running one or indeed living above one
1:15:31
But is it really a national tragedy or is it something that represents both social change
1:15:36
and quite possibly a change for good? 11.34 is the time. Matthew's in Red Hill
1:15:41
Matthew, what would you like to say? Good morning, James. Matthew. Yes, I think this whole subject of communities having somewhere to go
1:15:50
and be together and discuss ideas is critical to so much of what you talk about
1:15:56
the footballification of society, would perhaps be diluted if more people spent time with their neighbours
1:16:02
It does seem to me that there were always way more pub boars than we realised
1:16:06
when they were confined to being pub boars, because they'd get laughed down or they'd get teased out of their pompous position
1:16:14
or they'd get punched, whereas now they spend all of their time on social media
1:16:17
surrounded by other pub boars, and they're taking over, Matthew, they're taking over the world
1:16:23
They are, absolutely. And even the people who aren't a pub bore, they are choosing to sit at home
1:16:29
or maybe they're not choosing, maybe their local pub is closed, and therefore they're stuck in their own house
1:16:33
with their own mobile phones, cheap wine that they've got from the supermarket
1:16:39
and they're not meeting anyone else. And having their carefully cultivated positions and prejudices
1:16:46
challenged in any way, shape, or form. I mean, that's one thing that we could mourn the passing of
1:16:52
but, I mean, are we really looking at a national tragedy, or is there, I just can't help thinking that
1:17:00
if it was something else that was shutting, like betting shops, we wouldn't all be sitting here going
1:17:05
oh, this is terrible, all the betting shops are shutting, and there's probably more of a parallel between a pub and a betting shop
1:17:10
than there is between a pub and a greengrocer. I don't know, because I don't think you would spend much time
1:17:16
in a greengrocer chatting. It might be. I did once. So my mate had a greengrocer's nearby, but he's moved to Chelsea now
1:17:24
so hardly ever see him. But no, you're right. The greengrocer is not exactly a social hub
1:17:28
But you don't need alcohol to socialise. I mean, the third space is what Kev described
1:17:34
You're talking about the third place, home, work, and then a third place
1:17:39
whether it's a pub or a library or a church. I mean, you wouldn't do much socialising in a library either
1:17:43
But somewhere where you could go and interact in real life with fellow flesh and fellow blood
1:17:52
that is what we're seeing the disappearance of, which is where your social media point comes in
1:17:57
And also, if I may make a point, my local pub briefly closed
1:18:02
and suddenly the community realised what it had lost. And a few spirited individuals rallied together
1:18:10
and managed to reopen it. And it's been... I think people, now that they realise what it was like not to have it
1:18:18
they've come back in their droves and there's now a book club
1:18:22
a craft club, there's musicians meeting there the pub is doing a great trade, it's not
1:18:28
charging 10 pound a pint, it's more like a fiver and I just feel like
1:18:32
because we had it taken away from us and then we got it back it made a massive difference
1:18:38
Yes, and it would be obeying different imperatives as well if you're going to be, if you like
1:18:44
ramping up the community element then you'll be ramping down the commercial element
1:18:48
So when people club together to buy a local pub that's closed, they're not going to be enslaved by the profit imperatives of the big pub companies, are they
1:18:58
They're going to be able to run it for different reasons and for different people, if you like
1:19:03
I guess a coffee shop has come back round again. You go back to the times of Charles Dickens
1:19:10
Coffee shops would have been a big challenge to the pubs. It would have been one or the other that you would go to for a socialise
1:19:17
In fact, I think, and I haven't got the history to state this with absolute certainty
1:19:21
but the coffee shops would have been a more civilised place for socialising as opposed to the pubs
1:19:26
Certainly around Fleet Street and places like that, going back beyond, before Dickens, coffee shops are absolutely crucial
1:19:32
Salons, if you like, of interaction and discussion. Probably a bit easier to do it in a coffee shop than it would be in a pub
1:19:39
It depends how many cups you've had. And then the Quakers came along and brought out the chocolate
1:19:43
so you'd have hot chocolate, but you could still socialise. you don't need the alcohol, the lubricant of socialisation
1:19:49
You don't need the alcohol to have the socialisation. But as Kev points out, they're shutting all the third places
1:19:55
And not for commercial reasons. Churches didn't shut because they weren't making money
1:19:59
Well, I suppose in a way they did. But you don't think of them as a commercial enterprise
1:20:03
Thank you, Matthew. Danny's in Harlow. Danny, what do you think? I reckon it's more a case of social engineering
1:20:11
Go on. Well, by making pubs, too expensive. You're forcing people into supermarkets
1:20:19
where alcohol's cheap. Once they've been to the supermarket, they go home, where they have
1:20:24
no other entertainment but to stare at a television that's feeding them propaganda
1:20:29
or looking at social media that is polarising whatever idea they may have at that time
1:20:34
They might be watching the football, or EastEnders, but I take your point. The exposure, I mean, the algorithms
1:20:38
were designed to suck us in, chew us up and never, ever spit us out, aren't they
1:20:42
So the pub would have been almost a sort of challenge to that model
1:20:47
Yeah, and when you consider that most of the working class movements and movements of the 1800s
1:20:52
were either started in, as you say, coffee shops or in pubs
1:20:56
it's almost like, you know, they're guiding us towards the information that they want us to know about
1:21:03
And by taking out that social interaction, that discussion, people's ideals and ideas have become so polarised
1:21:10
because there isn't that level playing field, at one place where you can go to discuss ideas
1:21:15
whether you're right or wrong. You learn stuff at pubs. I never drank. I'm not a heavy drinker
1:21:20
Not really. I probably drink at Christmas. So when I used to go to my pub
1:21:25
where all my mates used to go in Stortford, the Tanner's Arms, I used to go in there and make myself a cup of tea
1:21:32
sit down. It wasn't because of the alcohol. It was because it was a place of like-minded people
1:21:37
where you felt safe to discuss the issues that you're not allowed to talk about
1:21:41
Where would you go now? Nowhere? I don't go anywhere. Oh, that's sad
1:21:46
No, instead I just harass people like you and politicians. It's a good one
1:21:52
I suppose we serve a purpose then. We've got a form of sort of community group or social group on here
1:21:59
but it's not the same, is it? I mean, for a start, no one would be allowed to lay down the law
1:22:04
and dominate the conversation in a pub as much as I do on this programme. No, as I say, the other side effect to drinking at home is
1:22:13
the possible rise in domestic violence due to alcohol. I don't know about that
1:22:18
I think you'd be just as likely to come home from the pub in a state of anger and violence as you would be necessarily to reach it
1:22:24
But I know that incidents do go up when there international football on and that would obviously usually involve alcohol consumption as well How do we know though Danny that we not just sort of mourning the seasons
1:22:37
Do you know what I mean? That these things come... I like your ysis, but it's knocking at the door of a conspiracy theory
1:22:43
that this has been deliberately inflicted upon us to stop us from communing and conversing
1:22:49
and sticking it to the man and recognising oligarchy. I mean, it's possible, but for me, it's unlikely
1:22:56
It could just be that we're changing our habits. Here you go. This is from Laura
1:23:00
Why are we mourning this? Every day meeting at the pub, anyone under the age of 35
1:23:04
has no great love for dark, smelly paces where you can only order beer and bad wine
1:23:09
Many people over 35 would probably rather go anywhere else, to a cafe or a restaurant or even somebody's house
1:23:15
Again, it's... Oh, I've forgotten what I was going to say now
1:23:20
I was listening to you. Happens to me all the time, mate. 11.42 is the time. Greg is in Penmako in Wales
1:23:26
Um, Penmakno. No, he's not. He's gone. So there's no Penmakno. There you go, see if Danny's come back. Danny, has it come back to you
1:23:34
Uh, no. Oh, well. Joe's in Enniskillen. Joe, what would you like to say? Hello, James. Let me... Oh, hang on
1:23:41
That's all right. Let me take you back a few years. Let me take you down
1:23:46
I'm a little bit older than you. Yeah, yeah. And I grew up in a similar size of area
1:23:53
Right. I grew up in social clubs. My dad was on the committee
1:23:59
My mom played for the darts team from the age of probably three until I was about 30
1:24:07
I was in a social club every day. So that was one of the heart
1:24:13
Yes. The community. but then pubs, it was pub sports. Like you had dance teams
1:24:21
snooker teams, Wist. They used to go from pub to another pub
1:24:26
could be three miles away, spend the whole evening with a whole different group of people
1:24:30
But not that many people were in the teams. Regulars didn't travel, did they
1:24:34
So there'd only be four of you in the dance team. No, no, this was like
1:24:38
you know, community-wise. All right. This would be the 80s. There were teams of eight
1:24:44
OK. And two teams in each pub. Ladies and gents. It's just stopping assimilation of our community
1:24:52
It's like the previous two guys said very well. I hadn't thought of it this way around
1:24:56
I mean, the idea that we're becoming more atomised as a consequence of third spaces closing
1:25:01
and the pubs would be the biggest, I suppose it actually makes perfect sense. I wouldn't go so far as the last lad
1:25:07
and claim that it has been done deliberately from on high. It's just a... It's an unfortunate consequence of something that was happening anyway
1:25:16
No, I think... When did you last have a conversation with someone that you didn't know previously
1:25:23
Apart from me. I do it every single day. But that's because I work with people
1:25:29
Oh, no, I don't mean that. That's at work. Because I can't count this, can I
1:25:33
Because I'm at work. If you're not at work, if you're literally in a space that is not your home or your work
1:25:38
and you have a conversation with somebody new. When was the last time you did that? Every single day because I live in Northern Ireland
1:25:45
Oh, I see. Well, I do now. Yeah, it's like mum in Yorkshire. I mean, that is what some people do
1:25:49
They can have conversations, but that's just ships that pass in the night. You're not going to sit down
1:25:54
and actually set the world to rights together, are you? Oh, blimey, there's a lot here
1:25:58
But that idea of it not necessarily being the national tragedy. When I started this job
1:26:04
I would look at newspapers and recognise that the agenda was set
1:26:07
by people who were 20 years older than me and mostly looked like me
1:26:12
Some of them had been educated like me. That's not true anymore, because I'm getting on a bit
1:26:17
relatively speaking. But I think some things are legacy. So pubs closing, bad
1:26:23
Whereas most people, as Laura pointed out, certainly people under 35 will not be thinking that
1:26:29
They'll be thinking something quite different. It's 11.45. Simon Marks is up after this
1:26:33
James O'Brien on LBC. It's 11.49, you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:26:42
Conversation in the first hour had some echoes of what we have seen unfold in the United States of America
1:26:49
And I think one of the least controversial things I can say on this programme is that we have been able to navigate all of the things or most of the things going on in the United States of America with expert guidance, thanks to Simon Marks' status as our LBC Washington correspondent
1:27:04
and lo and behold, here he is again. Is it open? Is it closed
1:27:08
Is it closed but a bit open? Is it open but a bit closed? Is Iran right? Is Trump right
1:27:12
Is it all going well? Is the war over? Is the war being won? Is Iran desperate? Morning
1:27:19
Well, we're certainly no further forward. Good morning to you, James. We're certainly no further forward
1:27:23
and we are arguably several steps back. And what we've seen over the last 48 hours
1:27:29
is just more chaos arising from Donald Trump's sudden announcement on Sunday on social media of this new initiative, what he's calling Project
1:27:41
Freedom, which he couched in his initial announcement as a humanitarian effort to try
1:27:49
and alleviate suffering on board tankers that are basically stuck, either waiting to sail through
1:27:58
the Strait of Hormuz or sail up the Strait of Hormuz, but they're basically stuck at sea
1:28:04
they're running out of food on board, they're running out of water in many cases, and according
1:28:10
to the President, increasingly unsanitary conditions are developing on some ships that pose, he says
1:28:16
a health threat to crews. And to be absolutely clear about the way he positioned this, he said
1:28:22
that this was an effort to help tankers associated with countries that were uninvolved in the
1:28:30
conflict, not American ones, not Iranian ones, tankers, particularly from Middle Eastern countries
1:28:37
and other parts of the world, that had simply found themselves in this very difficult position
1:28:43
And so the U.S. Navy, in some fashion, was going to get them through the strait. Well, all of that
1:28:49
caused a significant number of questions that the White House then scrambled to answer
1:28:55
And within hours, the White House was putting a clarification out saying the president did not
1:29:00
mean to indicate that the United States Navy, which is, of course, blockading the Strait of Hormuz
1:29:07
was going to start leading these ships through the Strait. This wasn't about breaking the blockade
1:29:12
this was about providing those ships that wanted to try and alleviate the humanitarian problems
1:29:19
they're facing with guidance on how they themselves could successfully navigate the
1:29:26
strait presumably you know getting on a radio and saying these are the point bearings that
1:29:30
you need to follow if you want to avoid known risks but it wasn't about anything other than that
1:29:36
So then of course yesterday... Go ahead. No, no, you go ahead. Sorry
1:29:41
Well, so then of course yesterday all hell broke loose because the Iranians smelt a rat and thought that this was all an effort by the United States to break the blockade
1:29:51
They claimed to have lobbed two missiles that they said had hit a US warship that then retreated. Central Command denied
1:29:59
said that no US warship had been hit, although didn't say whether a US warship had been targeted
1:30:06
and also didn't comment on claims that the Iranians had made that the warship had turned
1:30:11
around and retreated after coming under attack. And then suddenly we learnt that Central Command
1:30:16
was announcing that they had successfully guided two ships through the Strait of Hormuz
1:30:22
both of them US flagged, which of course was not what Project Freedom was supposed to be all about
1:30:31
The Americans then said that they struck seven or eight Iranian fast boats that were in the water
1:30:37
I mean, so this idea that was first promulgated on social media by the president
1:30:45
suddenly becomes the ignition point for a possible end to the ceasefire
1:30:53
that, let me remind you, he himself has cited in letters to Congress
1:30:59
where he has explained to lawmakers why he doesn't need to seek congressional authorization for his war because he claims
1:31:06
well, the war's over. Hostility's terminated on April the 7th when the ceasefire began
1:31:12
So this sort of blundering about has once again brought the Iran crisis to boiling point with every possibility after certainly one tanker, a UAE vessel, did get struck by Iranian fire yesterday, that this tinderbox once again gets reignited
1:31:31
Our, um, another esteemed correspondent that we have on the programme is an ex-merchant
1:31:37
navy officer who now teaches maritime matters and creates online courses, Ash in Northampton
1:31:45
and he kind of predicted a couple of the things that have happened and are happening, up to
1:31:51
and including the fact that the only people who can absolutely guarantee safe passage
1:31:55
through the strait of home is, will always be the people that put the mines there in the first place
1:31:59
He also alerted me to the plight of the sailors stuck on the ships who've been completely overlooked until you mentioned them a moment ago
1:32:06
And this has never happened before, but I'm possibly more confused when you finished talking
1:32:10
than I was when you started talking. But there's a first time for everything
1:32:15
Hang on, hang on, hang on. Are they still there? I mean, the ships that are supposedly the beneficiaries of the policy
1:32:22
are, because their plight is so terrible, they haven't moved an inch
1:32:27
Well, not so far, other than the two US-flagged vessels that were guided through the strait
1:32:31
Who were not part of the original proposal. Who were not part of the mission. No, I do understand it. I take it all back
1:32:37
Holy moly. And does any of it matter? This is a question I ask you almost every time we talk
1:32:42
Is any of this resonating anywhere important or relevant or significant? Well, I think it is
1:32:47
I think it matters on Capitol Hill increasingly. I mean, with every passing day
1:32:52
we get 24 hours closer to the midterm elections. And with every passing day
1:32:56
Republican lawmakers who are up for re-election, or those in various parts of the country running for election for the first time, are getting increasingly antsy, not just about the direction of the war in Iran, but about the economic consequences of this
1:33:12
Donald Trump again yesterday breezily suggesting that petrol prices are going to drop, they're
1:33:19
going to sink like a stone as soon as this conflict is over, that runs entirely counter
1:33:25
to testimony and classified briefings that Pentagon officials have provided to lawmakers
1:33:30
who say that even if peace was agreed today, it would take up to six months fully to be
1:33:38
certain that the Strait of Hormuz was cleared of mines. So this is not going to be like a tap. You don't, you know, turn it off and everything suddenly returns to normal the moment you agree peace with Iran
1:33:51
And this government, the U.S. government, appears to be almost uniquely unable to strike a peace agreement with the Iranians because of the nature of those people engaged from the American side in the negotiations
1:34:08
There's still no one from the American side that is steeped in the complexities of the nuclear issue
1:34:16
I mean, you've got Steve Witkoff, the president's old real estate mucker
1:34:20
man he met in a deli at two o'clock in the morning in New York and once bought a sandwich for
1:34:25
and then they became firm mates. You've got Jared Kushner, the president's son-in-law, who spends half his time
1:34:30
trying to gild his own lily by securing investment deals from the Saudis and other players in the region
1:34:38
You've got Marco Rubio, maybe, maybe not involved, very unclear. He's briefing the press here later today
1:34:44
We might get a fresh sense of where things are going. They're all kind of, you know, they're sort of gentleman amateurs in all of this
1:34:52
The Iranians have got years and years of experience of negotiating with Western powers
1:34:59
over the very issue that Donald Trump says is his red line, the nuclear issue
1:35:03
And it's far from clear the Americans have got anyone on their team able to match the specialisation that the Iranians can deliver in any talks that may or may now not be taking place
1:35:16
All of which explains why it was greeted with such relief and joy when it was actually signed back in 2015 by members of the previous administrations
1:35:25
I mean, William Hague writes rather powerfully about in The Times today. On we go
1:35:31
You spotted this. I know you did. The Financial Times reporting on the tariffs, almost to continue a theme, Simon
1:35:38
having precisely the opposite effect from the one that Donald Trump predicted they would have when he introduced them
1:35:45
Yeah, I was really startled by this a few days ago. It was sort of tucked away in a corner of the Financial Times
1:35:50
But there are new numbers out about the UK's trading relationship with the United States
1:35:57
And if you remember last April, the Liberation Day tariffs, we were all very hurt by because we argued and indeed the Trump administration accepted
1:36:08
that US-UK trade was basically in balance. We weren't running a massive trading deficit. We
1:36:16
were sending them pretty much what they were sending us. There was a bit of dispute around
1:36:21
the edges, but we were way ahead of many of the other countries that were being seriously penalised
1:36:27
by the Trump administration. We then fast forwarded to the UK-US economic prosperity deal
1:36:34
with Lord Mandelson smiling like a Cheshire cat in the Oval Office as Keir Starmer called on the phone to herald this
1:36:40
as a major turning point in the relationship. If you actually look at the numbers since April of 2025
1:36:48
Liberation Day, through until February of 2026, suddenly there's a trading deficit
1:36:55
UK goods exports to the US averaged $4.7 billion a month, down from their previous average of $5.5 billion a month
1:37:07
So what Donald Trump has managed to do is actually create, between the UK and the US
1:37:14
the very thing that his Liberation Day tariffs were designed to try and overcome
1:37:22
Trading, of course, they could never overcome it, because if you a tiny country like Swaziland you never going to be able to export as much to the United States as you buy from the United States But if the goal of all of this was to eliminate trading deficits
1:37:36
well, in the case of the UK, it's completely backfired because, as the FT reported
1:37:42
there are UK manufacturers that have just got so fed up with dealing with the unpredictability
1:37:49
of the Trump administration, they've said, let's go to other markets, let's sell to Hong Kong
1:37:53
let's sell to Germany, let's sell to India, let's sell elsewhere. So it's an astonishing own goal for the US economy and for US consumers
1:38:02
but it's also a problem for the UK because it means we're selling less across the Atlantic
1:38:08
to our major trading partner. Just another example of the chaos that Donald Trump has wrought here, but also there
1:38:17
Well, you lob a rock in a pond and you don't get to control where the ripples go. We're out of time, so we can't talk about Eric Trump
1:38:23
which, frankly, is a relief. Don Jr. Thank you. Was it Don Jr.? It wasn't Eric
1:38:30
Next time we'll catch her. We can't talk about either of them. Such is the nature of the passage of time
1:38:34
Simon Marks, live from Washington. It's 12.01. James O'Brien on LBC. There are two stories in the news today
1:38:41
that turn your head somewhat and raise your eyebrows. And then you remember that
1:38:45
although they are absolutely remarkable stories, they are human stories as well
1:38:50
So they don't lend themselves to unseriousness, is probably the word that I'm looking for
1:38:57
There's one particularly grisly tale of a hotelier in South Africa who was found inside the belly of a crocodile
1:39:04
It's an extraordinary, I can't say rescue, obviously, but they needed to extract the crocodile from a
1:39:12
there's no other way of saying this, from a crocodile-infested island. and they did so by hitting it with a dart
1:39:20
lowering someone down and then tying the crocodile up and lifting it all back out again on a helicopter
1:39:25
And then when they opened up the crocodile, they found the missing hotelier. And I thought that had an extraordinary level of interest in it
1:39:35
but I noticed myself a couple of minutes, a couple of seconds into contemplating the story
1:39:39
and wondering whether we would talk about it. It's a human story
1:39:45
It's about a person. It's about someone's dad. It's about, you know, a huge..
1:39:51
Do you know what I mean about how sometimes the humanity can be overshadowed by the extraordinary nature of the context
1:39:57
It happens a lot. And I don't want it to happen in the conversation that we're having next
1:40:00
because three people, as you just heard in the news, are dead. But it struck me, and this is something of a conversation
1:40:06
that Mrs O'Brien and I have on an ongoing basis. The only time you ever hear about cruises
1:40:12
is when something bad happens. I mean, in many ways, the only time you ever hear about anything
1:40:18
is when something bad happens. It's, you know, the nature of news reporting, I suppose
1:40:24
It's like that. I got it wrong the other day when I said it was... Who did I say it was? The Fast Show
1:40:29
It's from the day-to-day, I think. It was a Steve Coogan character playing the lifeguard in the swimming pool
1:40:35
In 1988, nobody drowned. In 1999, nobody drowned. he's trying to justify the or in his mind the unfair amounts of attention that are paid to the
1:40:46
fact that someone drowned on his watch in one year so he lists all the other years where that never
1:40:52
happened have i told you my equivalent story i'll just tell you very very briefly i must have told
1:40:58
you this before keith will nod if he knows do you know the one about when i went to visit the um
1:41:02
the illegal travelers encampment in essex do you not do you know this one so i went to visit this
1:41:10
illegal travellers encampment in Essex because a 16-year-old girl rang in to the program to talk
1:41:15
to us about what life was like actually on it while the rest of the media was raging and raving
1:41:20
about how they should all be burnt out of their homes or removed from the planet entirely and I
1:41:25
was just again struck by her humanity so I did something I don't really do anymore
1:41:31
I arranged to go and visit. I don't really like leaving the studio. It was bad enough doing it
1:41:35
from a shed during lockdown. So I visited and we drove down there, me and the producer that I had at the time
1:41:40
We drove down there and it was an absolute experience. There's no doubt about that
1:41:45
And it was an extraordinary piece of radio. Unfortunately, this was back
1:41:49
when nobody actually listened to this programme. And we certainly didn't have cameras in the studio
1:41:54
or indeed a reliable habit of scoring what the kids call viral clips
1:42:00
So you won't be aware of this unless you happen to be listening to the radio on that day
1:42:05
Because about three months later, we were assembling our forces to enter the awards that we used to enter
1:42:15
And I said to the producer of the programme, I said, oh, we must put that in for an award
1:42:19
I've never heard anybody do that before. And he looked at me slightly askance
1:42:24
And he went, ah, I've lost it. I said, what? He said, he said, I've lost it
1:42:33
I said, you've lost it? Can you lose it? He goes, well, everything's on tape. And I mean, this can't have been..
1:42:39
There must have been a digital archive, but I think it would..
1:42:42
Would it refresh or it would erase itself? Unless you specifically and deliberately..
1:42:47
So we're going back 20 years, give or take. You specifically and deliberately archived something
1:42:53
to save it for, you know, a rainy day or for posterity
1:42:57
Everything would get wiped over. Like CCTV, if you like. You know, if you don't get there in time
1:43:03
then it's going to have gone back to the beginning of the tape and started again. I know it's all digital now, but it wasn't that
1:43:08
That's how old I am. And I got quite... I got quite aerated
1:43:16
Is it aerated or aerated? Is it aerated? I don't know. I got quite cross
1:43:19
Why do I always have to use three syllables where one will do? I got quite cross. And I said, what do you..
1:43:24
You can't... I mean, it's the best thing I've ever done on the radio, which was a slight exaggeration, but only slight
1:43:30
What do you mean... And he did that thing. He literally said, well, it's the only thing I've lost this year
1:43:35
I said, it's the best thing we've done this year. Yes, but it's the only thing I've lost. On Monday, I didn't lose anything
1:43:40
On Tuesday, I didn't lose anything. But on the day that we actually, you know, did some proper journalism
1:43:48
we lost it. So that was my equivalent of this. I do like that story as well
1:43:55
Thomas reminds us the captain of the Titanic, had he survived, would have said
1:43:59
no one ever talks about the icebergs he didn't hit. So, I mention all of this because the only time you ever read about cruises or learn about cruises or cruises ever make the news is when something terrible is happening
1:44:11
And something terrible is currently happening. There are more than 20 Britons, including a sick crew member, stranded on a cruise ship at the moment
1:44:19
At the centre of a suspected rodent-borne virus outbreak that has already left one British citizen in intensive care and three others dead
1:44:29
A Dutch husband and wife and a German. the ship is not allowed to dock at the moment
1:44:37
just off Cape Verde, so presumably it is under their jurisdiction, and the tour company has said that one crew member
1:44:47
it's only a 35-day voyage, but they are seriously ill. I think since we come on air they arranged to airlift two people off the ship but the ship is not allowed to dock And here the thing right this is not going to be one of our big serious heavy phone
1:45:09
I have always fancied going on a cruise. Genuinely, I've got this... what would the word be
1:45:17
I've got a slightly romantic image of a cruise, of the ocean waves sort of lulling me to sleep at night
1:45:27
and arriving at somewhere exciting and not having to run the risk of being bored
1:45:32
because I've got to leave again. Do you see, I've always... Everything I like about the idea of a cruise
1:45:39
Mrs O'Brien doesn't like. So we have an incredibly harmonious marriage, So much so that we very recently celebrated our 26th wedding anniversary, would you believe
1:45:50
And yet, the one thing I don't think we'll ever do, that I would like to do, is go on a cruise
1:45:56
And part of the reason for this is the fact that whenever they are in the news, it is because something terrible is happening
1:46:05
There aren't many worse sort of intros to a story than a suspected rodent-born virus outbreak that has already left one British citizen in intensive care
1:46:16
But I've got friends that have been on cruises. Some of my mum's friends go on cruises
1:46:24
And yet, I can't... What's the word that I want? I just..
1:46:29
I just got a... There's a fear on my part. You can't change your mind when you're on a cruise, can you
1:46:40
You can't sort of have a bit of a rethink or stay somewhere else
1:46:43
or cash your chips in and change location. I simply want to have a chat today
1:46:51
about whether or not they are Marmite. Whether or not a cruise..
1:46:58
Because what I really want to do is talk to people who went on a cruise and hated it. I want to get to the bottom of whether or not the things that appeal to some people repel other people
1:47:07
and the things that repel some people appeal to other people. It's a really odd way to holiday if you've never done it
1:47:15
You know what I mean? So you might hire an apartment, or you might stay in a hotel, but you don't go anywhere when you go on a cruise
1:47:21
You kind of go everywhere. You don't have a location. Where are you going? I'm going on a cruise
1:47:25
Where are you going? I'm going to the Caribbean, and I'm going here, and I'm going to... But where are you going on holiday
1:47:29
I'm going on a ship. So your ship is your holiday. The ship. Do you see what I mean
1:47:34
Somewhere inside me I can see the appeal, but that's my heart
1:47:39
My head, my head struggles. The more thinking I do, and this is where Mrs O'Brien is
1:47:48
as is so often the case, way ahead of me, because she's doing the thinking, and I'm doing the feeling
1:47:54
The more thinking I do, the more mad it seems as a holiday plan
1:48:00
So I just want to know the truth. Is it good or is it bad? 0345 6060 973
1:48:05
And you say this, look, here it goes. You could get off at the first stop and then fly home
1:48:10
They're not allowed to dock, Alyssa, at the moment. They've got a rodent-born virus sweeping through the ship
1:48:18
and they're not allowed. So I'd live with that fear. I'd live with that fear
1:48:24
And there's always stories, and they're probably massively unrepresentative. unrepresentative. I'm sure there's a thousand successful cruises for everyone that makes the
1:48:31
newspaper because every single person on the vessel is puking. But there's something, there's
1:48:36
something quite, maybe it's because I went to boarding school. There's something, I don't know
1:48:40
what it is that I'm trying to pin down, but I do know that you can help me pin it down. So cruises
1:48:46
should stories like this act as a valid deterrent to put the rest of us from even contemplating such
1:48:52
a strange way of spending a few weeks, 0345 6060 973, or are they actually
1:48:58
the exceptions that prove the rule? It's only because they are usually such wonderful
1:49:02
and happy experiences that we get the coverage that we get when something terrible
1:49:08
like this happens. I just want to know. I want to kind of, I mean, either give me
1:49:12
what I need to persuade Mrs. O'Brien to do one, as in to go on a cruise with me
1:49:16
not to actually do one, or confirm her suspicions that these are
1:49:22
You can tell I'm tying myself in knots. All right, I'm going to say it
1:49:27
Are they holidays for a very specific sort of person? 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need
1:49:34
Or would everyone enjoy one? There's a sort of type that likes a cruise
1:49:40
because, you know, they don't... It's a bit like... It's a bit package
1:49:49
0345 6060 973, please. James O'Brien on LBC. It's 12.17 and there's some other things now
1:49:57
Some coming through my inbox and some bubbling their way up to the top of my own consciousness
1:50:01
The thing that I have a problem with is what I've witnessed when I'm having a very nice holiday somewhere like Venice or Santorini
1:50:10
And then the cruise ship arrives and it decants these Americans who, they're like locusts
1:50:20
so venice in particular i think they've made measures now haven't they to contain the horror
1:50:26
the horror but santorini as well which is one of the most beautiful places you could ever dream of
1:50:32
visiting and then these people land and they're like locusts in the sense that they just need to
1:50:37
do they need to tick that box and buy that thing and absorb that experience and photograph that
1:50:43
view and it's almost as if i'll tell you what it is it's like it's like pokemon go was a holiday
1:50:49
they're just sucking up a preordained list of experiences and sites and we must go to that
1:50:57
restaurant and eat that ice cream and i i i don't know i holiday in a very different way
1:51:03
i could find myself staring at a beautiful view for days all right not days but you can't anyway
1:51:10
good or bad yes or no is it a certain type of person or a certain lorraine's in little hampton
1:51:16
And Lorraine, what would you like to say? Yes, I booked a world cruise back in 2020
1:51:21
Shouldn't you have had a taster first? Oh, I had. Oh, good
1:51:25
I had, but because my partner won't travel, so I thought I'd go and see everything in one hit
1:51:31
Right. And then COVID came about. Yeah. And we're heading towards China after going around New Zealand
1:51:39
and my partner came to... How much, I mean, how much of China are you likely to see on a cruise
1:51:46
On a world cruise? You could go to different places. You could go to excursions and pay the extra to travel
1:51:52
So, like, for three hours? To the Terracotta Army. Yeah. Yes. Anyway, because of COVID
1:51:58
and hearing that the cruise ships were being kept in Japan and China
1:52:03
and all around there. Yeah, I remember that. So I jumped ship in Australia and flew to Sri Lanka
1:52:08
waiting for the boat to pick me up, so I thought. Right. And then the world closed down
1:52:13
and I managed to get... This is a slightly rarefied experience, Lorraine
1:52:17
I don't know that it's going to push me away from or towards cruising as a choice
1:52:21
as a holiday choice. You can get off the ship. Oh I see what you mean Okay Yeah because I paid for the cabin so I jumped I went to Sri Lanka waiting for the boat and it never happened But I got back to London just before lockdown
1:52:36
and all my friends on the cruise ship had to sail around for a good few weeks
1:52:39
without stopping anywhere. Yeah. So, I mean, it's not a once-in-a-lifetime experience, is it
1:52:46
This idea that something bad happens on a ship and nobody wants it to dock anywhere near them
1:52:52
Would that underpin your whole experience? Can I ask you a very un-British..
1:52:56
Oh, I think she's dropped off the line. Can we get her back? Because there's one crucial question that I want to ask her
1:53:01
I mean, a world cruise. Is that, like, the best thing you've ever heard or the worst
1:53:06
Because I can see both angles of world cruise. It's like she said, she's going to be able to see everything
1:53:12
She's going to see the Eiffel Tower, Statue of Liberty, Terracotta Army
1:53:16
How long was it scheduled to take, Lorraine? Oh, it was about two and a half months altogether
1:53:21
The whole world? Yes. In two, in ten weeks? Well, could have been more than that
1:53:27
And here's the question. Okay, how much was it cost full work
1:53:32
I can't remember now, but I did get a refund. How much was it roughly
1:53:37
Ballpark. Come on, Lorraine, don't be coy. Oh, about 22. Oh, okay
1:53:41
It wasn't too bad. And would you go on another one? No. No, I don't blame you
1:53:46
I don't know what that story does in terms of my pendulum. It's curiously inert at the moment
1:53:51
Thank you, Lorraine. It's nice to have you back. Paul's in New Southgate. Paul, what would you like to say
1:53:56
Hello there. Yeah, I was someone sceptical. I didn't fancy cruising. It was for old people, even though I'm kind of pushing 68
1:54:03
I'm old. But last year, we decided we'd never been on a cruise
1:54:07
and we'd never done Japan before. We thought, what a good way to do Japan
1:54:12
because that way you're not unpacking and repacking. You leave your room at 8 o'clock in the morning
1:54:17
when you've docked after breakfast. Just you go on, you either go on your own trip that you can organise yourself
1:54:24
Well, you go somewhere like Tokyo, you're going to see different things. Osaka was amazing
1:54:30
How many different, how many ports did you port in? Did you dock in
1:54:34
We did, it was 13 days. We did about eight, including one day in South Korea
1:54:40
That's insane. And how did you get to Japan? Did you fly to Japan and then get on the boat
1:54:44
You didn't sail to Japan? No, it was a whole sort of trip
1:54:50
So here's the thing, right? Don't tell me yet whether you look back on it fondly or negatively
1:54:54
What happens if, on day one, you go somewhere amazing, right? And you think, flip it out, I could spend a fortnight here
1:55:00
It's fantastic. And then on day two, you go somewhere a bit mediocre
1:55:05
and you realise that you're going to have to book another holiday to see the first place properly
1:55:11
and the second place didn't float your boat at all, if you pardon the pun, Paul
1:55:16
But no, that's the thing. I mean, every day was good. There was probably one slightly boring stop-off
1:55:22
But the thing is, it is an introduction to a country. And doing it that way, it was a good way to do it
1:55:29
Is it? Are you sure, Paul? Because it sounds a little bit, I don't know what the word is
1:55:35
It sounds a little bit like the holiday equivalent of ultra-processed food
1:55:40
No, because you actually, I mean, if you go to the talks beforehand
1:55:44
and they say, this is what you're going to see. You can either book a slightly overpriced trip with us
1:55:49
or you can just go and jump. Make your own way. Okay, so you do another one, would you
1:55:55
I think we've got his gone as well. I don't know what's going on. They're all falling. John's in Northampton
1:56:00
John, what can you tell me? We did our first cruise after sort of deliberating
1:56:05
for about 30 years, shall we, shan't we? Yeah, that's where I am at the moment. I'm about 15 years into that process
1:56:11
Right. It was our 50th last year. Oh, congratulations. So, did a week as a taster in the Mediterranean, sort of the Ajax area
1:56:20
Very nice. And if you're the type of person that doesn't like discipline, you like to do what you want to do on a holiday
1:56:27
Yeah, man, that's me. I'm basically a maverick. I'm a maverick. Yeah, I know you get to Greece a lot
1:56:34
So, the thing is, you have to be up about five o'clock to have breakfast if you're going to do one of the tours
1:56:38
So, and then you're going to be looking at your watch because you're going to be back at four o'clock to catch the boat again or ship
1:56:45
That would drive me nuts. So that's what you're going to be telling Mrs. O'Brien
1:56:49
Yeah, she'd be fine. I'd be an absolute mess. Actually, I see that. She's terrible at airports
1:56:54
So you quite liked that. You liked having the timetabling and the slightly..
1:56:58
No, not at all. No, you didn't. I hated the discipline. No, exactly. We spent 20 years, you know, going to our own place we had over in Cyprus
1:57:05
That's it. Well, you can do what you want. You can do what you want, John. You know your way around, you've got your favourite watering holes, you know where you get the good..
1:57:12
Or just stay in the pool, you know, have a gin and tonic, job done. So who likes that then, do we think
1:57:19
Well, I think we might try again because it's one of those all-inclusives
1:57:24
and it's a different type of person on the all-inclusives. What does that mean? Go on, don't..
1:57:30
No, no, no, carry on cruising. There was a few of the carry-on cruisers at the end of the bar
1:57:34
Oh, OK. All right, so you've got Kenneth Connor at the end of the bar
1:57:38
making his way through several sailors' daily allowances. Yeah. But I would say it's a way of getting a taste
1:57:48
because we did Malta and we did one of the tours and we like Malta, so we may go back there for a week's holiday
1:57:54
Yeah, I mean, you're retired, I sense. Partly. Yeah, so you've got a lot of time
1:57:59
So if you've only got two weeks a year, A cruise is a much bigger risk than it is for someone in your status, in your position
1:58:07
Okay, so I didn't really go mad for it, but you're going to give it another go? Potentially
1:58:12
I might take another 30 years. Is there an unregimented equivalent? Is there a cruise company that kind of lets you..
1:58:20
I don't know. You couldn't really do your own thing, could you? Because the boat's going to leave. No, I think we've been told the West Indies is a good one to do
1:58:27
but we thought we'd do this taste a week first. Do you have to dress for dinner
1:58:32
No. Okay. No, you can dress smart for different restaurants. Oh, okay
1:58:37
But we had a good choice. Yeah, these are the bits where I start warming to it
1:58:41
This is where I start warming. I'll tell you what I used to love as a boy, John. I used to love the ferry to France
1:58:46
Yeah. It was like a kingdom, and you'd wander around it, and you'd find an observation deck or another bar
1:58:51
or an arcade where you could play, like video games. Well, very primitive video games
1:58:56
Just as a side show, we did one of these sort of out-the-paper mini cruises
1:59:01
to Iceberg about 20, 30 years ago. Yes. And when we got there, the fog came in
1:59:08
The lady was taking us around and kept saying, if you could see, this is what you would see
1:59:13
So we had three days. I hope you gave her a good tip. It's brilliant
1:59:17
That's an amazing gift. You're a seal sanctuary that I think got frozen seals in it
1:59:21
but that's about it. Didn't see anything. I mean, she could have just been leading you around the block
1:59:26
couldn't she, by not showing you anything at all, just claiming that the sights that you would have seen
1:59:31
had the fog not been there were extraordinary. Such things I have not seen. Thank you, John
1:59:36
Hmm. I don't even know anymore. Neil's in Havahill. Neil, what would you like to say
1:59:41
Hello, James. Good to speak to you. Likewise, Neil. Yeah, we went on first cruise ever, my partner and I
1:59:48
back on the last day of January. We went up to see the very, very northernmost top
1:59:53
to go into Norway to see the northern light. Oh, I could get into that
1:59:58
The Aurora Borealis. That's it. Yeah, if you've not gone to see them up there, you haven't seen them. They are terrific
2:00:06
Okay, that could tempt me, actually. We went, as I say, first cruise, we went on a Norwegian line. Is it all right if I don't mention them
2:00:17
Yeah. Because they were good. Okay. I can if it's not a problem
2:00:22
No, I don't know. I mean, why don't we decide when you finish the story
2:00:26
Okay, okay, man. But we went up to, as I say, we had a 15-day cruise
2:00:31
We got to Southampton, and we were told that there was going to be a five-hour delay
2:00:35
because there was an outbreak of gastroenteritis on the ship. So you were coming home at this point
2:00:42
No, we were just leaving. When you got there? How can they have had an outbreak of gastroenteritis
2:00:46
Oh, the previous people? Correct, from the previous cruise. Oh, that's going to put me right off, though
2:00:54
Well, you know, long story short, we didn't catch it. So it was a deep clean, was it
2:00:59
They were giving the boat a deep clean or something like that? They did before the cruise began
2:01:05
and they were doing it on and off all the way through. They were washing all over the place
2:01:10
but we did lose several amenities we couldn't have. For example? Well, I'll tell you what, it sounds silly
2:01:17
but it was a blooming nuisance, was using the public toilets around the ship
2:01:24
We couldn't do that. So we always had to go all the way back to your cabin. Did you go over the side then, did you
2:01:30
No, I did think once. I thought, no, it's a bit too public. So, I see
2:01:34
So it's a big, yeah, you would also, you probably frowned on. You've got a big old boat and you're off doing your thing
2:01:40
You're at the Nobbly Knees contest or you're enjoying a lecture or something like that
2:01:44
And then you can't use the facilities. You've got to go all the way back to your cabin
2:01:48
So the bigger the boat, the bigger the inconvenient, really. True. Yeah, we were lucky
2:01:52
The ship wasn't huge. I think nowadays there are bigger car ferries crossing the Channel now than we had. Okay
2:01:59
So you do it again? Definitely. Okay. I mean, there's a certain consensus emerging on this
2:02:05
I was hoping for stuff a little bit grislier. I'm not going to lie to you, Neil. But, you know, second-hand gastroenteritis isn't necessarily a deal-breaker, is it
2:02:13
It's not going to put you off. It's coming up to half past twelve. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
2:02:19
I've got a peculiar following among cruisers, clearly. I've switched boards absolutely groaning under the weight of people
2:02:24
I'm looking for some more negative stories now in the interest of balance. But up next, Hetty O'Brien, who has written a book
2:02:31
that really addresses so many of the points that we examine. Sometimes it feels a rather lonely business when we examine them on this programme
2:02:39
The tyranny, if you like, of what she has chosen to call the asset class
2:02:45
but which we routinely refer to as private equity, the profits reaped by investors
2:02:50
who, as I've said to you, on several occasions, whether we're talking about care homes, burger joints or water companies
2:02:58
they don't care about anything except money, and we all labour under the illusion that we do
2:03:03
Some of the consequences of that will be explained to us by Hettie O'Brien
2:03:07
the author of The Asset Class, after the very latest headlines with Amelia Cox
2:03:11
James O'Brien on LBC. 33 is the time, the latest in an occasional series when I say to you, here's a book, go and buy it
2:03:20
Hettie O'Brien has written a book called The Asset Class, which speaks to so many areas of conversations that we have regularly on the programme, Hettie
2:03:27
And I think it's fair to say that anyone who thinks that we exaggerate when we talk about the iniquity of private equity and the potential depth and breadth of the damage that it can do to a society is not exaggerating
2:03:44
But let's begin at the beginning. Why did you decide that you wanted to write this book
2:03:48
Well, I think I was thinking about a lot of the things that probably a lot of people in
2:03:53
Britain are thinking about now to do with the sense in which the economy feels quite
2:03:57
stacked against us or against the general population. And you get a lot of explanations for that that can feel quite abstract and remote, cost
2:04:06
of living crisis, lack of economic growth. And actually, as a journalist, when I was looking into subjects to do with housing, water
2:04:14
and so on, this same group of companies with names I hadn't even really heard of before
2:04:19
kept cropping up. And these are private equity firms. It just seemed that after 2008, they'd
2:04:25
gone on this gigantic shopping spree, buying up the places where we live and work and die
2:04:31
and perfecting this really cradle to grave model of investment that was having all sorts
2:04:36
of effects on the ways we live now. And as you said previously, it's a really lonely
2:04:41
business this isn't an industry that wants people to really see inside it and to it doesn't want to
2:04:47
tell us much about what it's up to and so as a journalist when you get the sense that something
2:04:51
is really powerful but also wants to kind of go under the radar you think i want to i want to get
2:04:58
inside that black box well but that's the beauty of the book because we have all encountered sort
2:05:03
of sprouts emerging from the black box and everyone will have favorites whether it's you know the
2:05:08
Water Company is probably the most obvious, certainly in mainstream news coverage and in recent years
2:05:14
But I have personal experience of a residential children's home shutting down for reasons that none of us could understand
2:05:20
until it emerged that it was owned by private equity. People's favourite restaurants suddenly becoming considerably less enjoyable
2:05:28
than they used to be because private equity has moved in and decided to shave a bit off here and shave a bit off there
2:05:34
The bit that is probably hardest to convey to somebody listening to this
2:05:38
who has only scratched the very surface of it, is that none of that matters
2:05:43
The overarching ambition is just more money. So it doesn't matter whether it's an autistic child
2:05:51
a beef burger, or a water company. They just see an entity that can be further squeezed
2:06:01
Yeah, I think that the results or the consequences, though, are really catastrophic when it comes to the services
2:06:06
that we rely upon in our everyday lives. If you think about the money you have coming into your bank account each month
2:06:12
and then what goes out, the bills that you're spending on that you have no choice over whether or not you pay for
2:06:17
water, the place where you live, energy, and so on, that's the areas where this is a really ill-suited model, I think
2:06:25
Because, I mean, if it's owned by the state, then the state has a vested interest in keeping everything up and running
2:06:30
If it's owned by private equity, then infrastructure is actually antithetical to short term profit Well yeah and I think when you look at the type of model of investment this involves it involves basically loading assets and companies that private equity funds acquire
2:06:47
with debt in order to enrich those private equity fund managers and some of their investors
2:06:53
That is fundamentally ill-suited to public services. And when you look at what has happened
2:06:59
in care for example at care homes that were taken over in the US by private equity funds
2:07:05
before and after those takeovers after those takeovers death rates increased by something like
2:07:11
11% because of the effects of that debt because what that debt does is it means that a company has
2:07:17
less money to spend on doing the very thing that it's supposed to be doing whether that's cooking
2:07:22
your burger or caring for your elderly relative and it's when it's caring for your elderly relative
2:07:27
that I think it becomes really catastrophic. Where do we sit on this as a country
2:07:32
Where does the United Kingdom... Because I thought we had a particular problem. We don't, do we? This is obviously a global issue
2:07:37
A hospital in Africa that features in your book that is a particularly hideous story
2:07:43
And you mentioned the United States care homes. Do we have... I mean, are we..
2:07:47
Some of the companies have British connections, but the UK isn't a particular victim of this
2:07:53
Well, I disagree. I actually think that we have, our governments and our ministers have had a decades-long love affair with private equity
2:08:03
Why did it start in 2008? Sorry to interrupt. Okay, it started actually a bit before that
2:08:08
It started really in the late 1970s, early 1980s, and it comes out of the US
2:08:14
And what you get when it comes to Britain is this realisation that actually this investment model of heaping debt upon assets and companies
2:08:22
is really well suited to what's going on in Britain, where you've got the creation of all these new opportunities
2:08:28
because formerly publicly owned companies, such as the water companies or such as care homes
2:08:34
are being privatised. And so I came across a fund manager who was in the US
2:08:39
who wrote a really interesting book on infrastructure who said Britain really is the leading model for this
2:08:45
in terms of where this experiment plays out. We're really at the sharp end of this
2:08:49
It might be an American model, but it's definitely trans-travelled to Britain
2:08:54
and it's had really big consequences here. So I borrow a ton of money
2:08:59
I buy a formerly state-owned asset and I then dedicate myself to taking as much money
2:09:06
as I humanly can out of that state-owned asset until the pipsqueak
2:09:11
Well, look at the fact that we're paying, what, 28% of our water bills in England and Wales
2:09:15
now go on servicing debt that were taken on in order to enrich investors and fund managers
2:09:20
so yeah. We can, I can find an enraged person literally within moments of giving out the phone
2:09:26
number if we were talking about a football club where exactly the same model had been deployed
2:09:32
but it would be a little bit harder to find an enraged person sufficiently well informed to
2:09:37
understand that this is what has happened to their grandma's care home or their own water supplier
2:09:43
Why is that? Well I think that's a real shame and that's what I was hoping to do with the book was
2:09:48
really shed a light on that and show people how it really affects their everyday lives. But I think
2:09:53
partly opacity and power go together. The industry is very secretive and there's a form of power in
2:10:00
that in the sense that in not having to tell people what it's up to, it means that it can't
2:10:04
be properly held accountable. And when we hear about the bonfires of red tape and deregulation
2:10:10
and things like that, they're often euphemisms to describe making life easier for the sort of
2:10:16
vested interests that you're examining here? Yeah, I mean, you can look at the lobbying for
2:10:21
the greatest tax break that's perhaps ever been achieved within the history of the British state
2:10:26
which is the carried interest loophole. Might sound technical. What it means is that private
2:10:30
equity fund managers pay less tax on their incomes than you or I pay. And that's actually
2:10:37
a result of a really concerted lobbying effort to do with the idea that this model would bring
2:10:43
quote-unquote investment to the country. But when you look at what investment means
2:10:47
it means very different things to different people. This is the latest iteration of the trickle-down myth, really, isn't it
2:10:54
It's the idea that if you provide impunity or more freedom to create epic amounts of money, somehow everyone will benefit
2:11:01
It's the trickle-down myth updated for an age of austerity, where you have this argument that public spending cannot be afforded
2:11:08
and therefore private capital has to be relied upon to fill the holes created by the retreat of the state
2:11:14
And yet somehow there'll be more money to care for the public responsibilities
2:11:18
while private interests are taking more money out of the system anyway
2:11:22
So, I mean, it's like, I don't know, it's like Percy and Blackadder
2:11:27
coming up with a brooch of purist green. It's like, it's just, it's obviously not going to work
2:11:32
And we obviously end up paying for it. It's just, we pay for it perhaps later or in ways that are less visible
2:11:37
Meanwhile, it's trebles all round in the boardrooms of the companies that you examine here
2:11:42
It's been, the industry has been referred to as a billionaire machine for a very good reason
2:11:47
which is that the profits and the benefits of its methods largely flow to and are captured
2:11:53
by a small group of financial insiders. Do you have a, this is going to sound
2:11:59
like a bit of a crass question, but do you have a favourite
2:12:03
I mean, is it the water company? Is there one area where the inequities
2:12:08
of this practice and this system are more glaring or more obnoxious than they are in all the other
2:12:14
areas i i would say none of these areas are my favorites um you know what i mean
2:12:19
um look i think that when it came to care perhaps it's because i have a more of a vested interest
2:12:26
in this personally perhaps it's because i think it's where things happen to people in care homes
2:12:31
behind closed doors because those people are vulnerable because they are often elderly as
2:12:37
you mentioned your relative who's autistic, people who cannot stand up for themselves
2:12:43
And in a context where other forms of regulation and investigation and other watchdogs have
2:12:49
exited the picture, when you have private equity investors moving into those spheres
2:12:53
I think that's really where the dangers occur. And there is no sphere safe
2:12:58
I mean, if those areas can be subject to this practice, then any area can be
2:13:02
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when you look at what's happened to that surgeries, which is not necessarily
2:13:06
an area that you think would be particularly exciting for Wall Street financiers Private equity now owns I think it around 60 of vet surgeries in the UK Undertakers were an even earlier example weren they Undertakers exactly Your funeral parlour is quite possibly owned by Private Equity
2:13:22
and you don't even realise that to be the case. Is there a route back? I think the route back is, particularly when it comes to
2:13:29
my concern is what this looks like within public services, within the things that we depend upon
2:13:35
the route back looks like having greater confidence behind the idea of public investment
2:13:40
because public investment does attract private investment. When the government spends money, private capital will follow
2:13:47
But we cannot rely upon that capital to do the work that government should be doing
2:13:51
because actually that conditions the very things we end up with as a society
2:13:55
We hear a lot about the need for rebuilding Britain, for infrastructure
2:14:00
And when you look at the types of infrastructure that this industry is creating, Keir Starmer announcing on LinkedIn that Blackstone is building a data centre
2:14:08
is that data centre going to have beneficial effects for people in Britain in the way that
2:14:14
fixing all the potholes would no but it will make somebody somewhere exceedingly wealthy
2:14:19
are they I mean this might be a bit too speculative but are they a little bit
2:14:24
um gaslit political figures there's so much effort put into wooing them and courting them and the
2:14:31
there's not that much challenge to the overarching narrative that this is both necessary and desirable
2:14:36
There isn't much challenge. That's a challenge that I was hoping to pose with the book
2:14:41
But also there is the time-worn story of lobbying, of vested financial interests, of private equity
2:14:48
the private equity industry and its lobbying body in the UK, giving money to various politicians and so on
2:14:55
And I think that's part of the explanation. Just to be clear, this is money that is given to politicians, not secretly
2:15:01
You're not alluding to £5 million donations made secretly to politicians. There's no laws being broken here whatsoever, but doesn't that tell you something about our existing laws
2:15:10
Indeed it does. It tells me lots of things. The whole book does. Hettie O'Brien's The Asset Class, How Private Equity Turned Capitalism Against Itself is out now
2:15:20
Thank you, Hettie. Would you like to hear what Stuart had to say on the subject of your visit to the studio
2:15:25
Yeah. He says, that's two brilliant O'Briens that I've heard on LBC now
2:15:29
Phillips O'Brien at St. Andrew's University and Hettie O'Brien, the author of The Asset Class
2:15:34
That's very kind. Yeah, very good, Stuart. Well done. It's 12.46. James O'Brien on LBC
2:15:40
14.48 is the time. And just for the avoidance of doubt, Hetty O'Brien, the author of The Asset Class
2:15:46
is not, to the best of both our knowledge, any relation of mine
2:15:50
Natasha Clarke is back from her travels. Keir Starmer has been, well, leading a sort of summit on antisemitism
2:15:58
What have we learnt? Yes, so he's just been hosting a roundtable of leaders
2:16:03
from basically across society this morning, James, in number 10. So leaders from the Jewish groups, from community groups
2:16:08
from the police, politicians, essentially to talk to them about what more we can do to tackle anti-Semitism
2:16:14
He says he wants a, quote, whole society approach to this problem
2:16:18
Of course, it all comes after the spate of attacks we've seen in recent weeks on the Jewish community
2:16:22
the most recent being the Golders Green attack last week, the arson attacks on Jewish ambulances
2:16:27
the Hedem Park Synagogue attack as well a few months ago. Starmer has today announced an extra one and a half million pounds in funding to strengthen
2:16:35
community cohesion and to protect Jews in areas where they face quotes the greatest risk
2:16:40
ministers also are planning anti-terror laws that will enable them to ban the IRGC
2:16:46
that's going to come in the next parliamentary session we understand that was already on the
2:16:50
in the pipeline it was yeah indeed and like I say it has taken them a little while to get to
2:16:54
grips with this I think James and many people in the Jewish community just feel the prime minister hasn't been acting quickly enough
2:17:00
They want to hear more than just warm words from him. We know that he was heckled a little bit on a visit to Golders Green last week
2:17:06
So he's the head of the Met. Exactly. So it's a problem that obviously many Jewish people feel very strongly about, understandably
2:17:11
and are wanting more action on this. But it is also important to recognise Keir Starmer, of course
2:17:16
in a very unique position on anti-Semitism. He inherited the Labour Party
2:17:20
who was accused of having a huge problem on this at the time. So speaking earlier today in Downing Street
2:17:25
he said that he had seen that poison of anti-Semitism growing within the Labour Party
2:17:29
and now greater action is needed to be taken in the country. Because only by working together can we eradicate anti-Semitism from every corner of society
2:17:41
I've seen this poison up close. I've seen the damage it does when it takes hold
2:17:47
And I know what it demands to root it out. A coordinated approach, an unwavering resolve and zero tolerance for failure
2:17:57
That is the action I took in the Labour Party, that I had to take in the Labour Party
2:18:04
And that is what we must do today. And James, he also announced today that universities are going to have to step up
2:18:11
and say more about what they are doing to tackle anti-Semitism on campus
2:18:14
When abuses take place, we're calling on universities to demonstrate action. we will now expect them to publish the scale of the problem on their campuses
2:18:27
as well as the specific steps they have taken to clamp down on it
2:18:32
There will be zero tolerance for inaction. In our cultural venues and spaces, we will also expect more
2:18:39
Where public funding is being used to promote or platform anti-Semitism, the Arts Council must act
2:18:46
using its powers to suspend, withdraw and claw back funding. And today we're mandating an independent audit of how allegations are handled
2:18:56
So I thought what was interesting from that, James, is obviously, you know, Jewish groups obviously experiencing demands for funding day in, day out, and they need that extra security in order to continue
2:19:07
Basically saying to bodies, government groups, which are funding these arts organisations and saying, look, you know, this needs to be funded by government
2:19:16
they obviously face increased risks and he doesn't want Jewish groups, comedians, artists to be
2:19:22
squashed out of public life purely because they have to pay for police on the door, for extra
2:19:27
security, for more people to make sure that these events can go ahead. And also the idea of taking
2:19:33
away funding from groups which are funded by the government if they do not do enough to stamp out
2:19:38
anti-Semitism. We know that of course this has been a problem amongst students on campuses and
2:19:44
also, you know, what the government could do in terms of banning some potential protests
2:19:48
So there a lot of things I think the government are looking at It isn quite clear whether they will be taking more action on protests imminently We talked as well just then about the idea of banning the IRGC
2:20:00
It's not quite clear why it's taken the Home Office and the government quite so long to get around to doing it
2:20:04
but there are clearly national security implications that the people within government are keeping at the forefront of their mind
2:20:10
especially with what's going on in Iran and the wider Middle East conflict. Big difference, isn't there, between cleaning out a political party
2:20:18
and cleaning out a country. Of course, but equally, there's lots of lessons I'm sure he can draw on
2:20:24
And also, you know, at the time it was said, you know, this can't really be done because it's something that sort of roots itself in society
2:20:31
And actually Sir Mark Rowley, the head of the Metropolitan Police, has been calling for this sort of wider approach to this problem for a long time
2:20:39
So Keir Starmer has decided to take him up on this idea of a summit, which it's not just politics, it's not just police
2:20:45
it's people from across society saying, this is what we think and what do you think the government could do more to tackle this problem
2:20:51
Raising his own children in the Jewish faith, I think. Keir Starmer? Yeah
2:20:55
Yes, I believe so. I believe that he sort of wouldn't class himself as sort of traditionally practising
2:21:01
and it's his wife, Victoria, that has spoken about this a little bit in the past
2:21:05
And this is why he said he wouldn't work on Friday evenings unless he absolutely had to. Exactly. Because they're observing challah and kiddush, I think
2:21:11
Yes, I think you're right. That was something that he'd said before the election and got quite a lot of criticism for it
2:21:15
And Keir Starmer doesn't talk about this. He doesn't talk about the fact that it is something that affects his own family very often at all
2:21:20
Why not? It's interesting. I don't know, actually. Do you think it's some politicians who would, for good or for ill
2:21:26
I mean, he's never opportunistic. I think that's it. I think he doesn't want to be seen as
2:21:30
I'm a part of this community, therefore I'm against this other part of this community. He wants to be seen as a prime minister, like most people do, for everyone, right
2:21:36
But there are lots of things I think the government are accused of not doing enough on
2:21:40
These protests are one of them. It's a really difficult balance, and I heard from politicians
2:21:44
all across the political spectrum over the last sort of few days about how they feel about taking more action on police and protesting
2:21:51
But equally, you speak to Jewish community groups, and they say, well, we're seeing a direct correlation
2:21:55
between the protests on our streets and what is now happening in terms of very targeted attacks
2:22:01
on the Jewish community. So they are calling for more action to be taken. And it does sound like the government are listening on that
2:22:07
And Keir Starmer sort of indicated over the weekend that that will be the cumulative effect of some of these protests
2:22:12
will be taking into account. There's protests against what is going on in Gaza, or was going on in Gaza, and what continues to go on in Lebanon
2:22:19
Yes, exactly. So, I don't think it is that that the government have a problem with
2:22:23
Of course they don't. What they do have a problem with is when it turns into extreme language
2:22:27
when it turns into calls, which I shan't repeat, which some people say is giving oxygen to these attacks
2:22:35
and giving legitimacy to this. But what I think is really interesting about this approach from the government today is exactly the idea that
2:22:42
anti-Semitism, that racism lives sort of in not just in one corner of society. It is something
2:22:47
very embedded, very ingrained in some communities, and that the government are looking at a wider
2:22:53
approach rather than just saying we're just going to give more money to security services
2:22:57
Indeed. Natasha, Clark, thank you very much indeed. I mean, words today, more words, which of course
2:23:02
many members of the Jewish community have suggested are not enough, but perhaps words that will on this
2:23:07
occasion lead to action. I mean, a quick heads up on what some of the issues that Keir Starmer was
2:23:12
alluding to. The fact that the Golders Green attacks last week, the suspect also believed
2:23:19
to have attacked someone he'd known for 20 years in Southwark previously. I saw some extraordinary
2:23:26
attempts on social media this weekend to sort of claim that it challenged the notion that the
2:23:32
Golders Green attacks had been anti-Semitic, that the fact that an earlier victim had clearly not
2:23:36
being Jewish and those are the sort of things that reminded me of some of the characters and
2:23:41
some of the arguments that Keir Starmer had to deal with when he actually inherited the mantle
2:23:45
of leadership of the Labour Party but even being quite familiar with the practice didn't stop it
2:23:49
from being absolutely shocking and quite mind-boggling actually at times. Natasha thank you very much
2:23:55
indeed. I think we're out of time but Diane in Whitstable has been waiting for ages. Why would
2:23:59
you want to go on a cruise if you already live in Whitstable? Well I've only recently moved to
2:24:04
Whitstable actually but um yeah I was a reluctant cruiser my husband always wanted to go and in the
2:24:10
end in the uh spirit of harmony I sort of uh gave in and said okay let's go and uh we ended up
2:24:16
cruising we've done a few cruises now but two fantastic places one we cruised to the Baltics
2:24:22
and we managed to spend two days into St Petersburg where we saw all of the sites and it was just
2:24:28
amazing and I know that people are not probably going to be able to go there certainly in the near
2:24:33
future if ever so that that was amazing to be able to do that and the other one was my love of
2:24:38
Norway and I've cruised to the Arctic Circle twice now and I would never have seen Norway in the way
2:24:46
that I saw it if it hadn't been some cruises and I just want to say you don't get up at five o'clock
2:24:51
in the morning to go on on trips we're quite late risers we we've had fantastic days out which
2:25:00
have encouraged us then to go to other countries. I mean, we've done other holidays
2:25:04
It's not just been cruising. But sold. Pardon? Sold on the cruising now
2:25:09
Do. Do it. Do it. Do it. I can't go on my own, though. I bet you'll love it. I can't go on my own, can I
2:25:14
And I don't think I'm ever going to be able to tempt Mrs. O'Brien. Honestly. I'll keep trying
2:25:18
How long did your husband badger you for before you finally gave in? Probably about 15 years, I will be honest
2:25:25
And there became a point where, and I just to say, our son at the time we went was 15
2:25:30
and it will be one of his best holidays because there were young adults
2:25:36
and he managed to meet quite a lot of people where some of the traditional holidays we've been on
2:25:41
Oh, it's a bit late for me now. And he's a only child. My kids are older than yours. So, hey, I'll tell you what
2:25:45
that ship has sailed for me, Diane. Oh, it's okay. He's 24 now, so I am looking back
2:25:50
But, yeah. Diane, I said that ship has sailed. Oh, sorry. Flipping heck
2:25:54
Woman misses terrible dad jokes, Shutter. It was a terrible dad joke. I do apologise, Diane
2:25:59
Thank you. I enjoyed that conversation. I don't know if I'm any warmer or cooler towards the idea of cruising
2:26:04
but best wishes and commiserations to all of the people caught up in the latest crisis
2:26:10
If you missed any of the show today, you can listen back on Global Player. It's free, as is the LBC app
2:26:15
You can listen to a range of podcasts, including mine. You can download the official LBC app for free from your app store now
2:26:21
Stay tuned for Tom Sawbrook at four. But first, don't you touch that dial
2:26:25
It's Sheila Fogarty. Absolutely not. Thanks very much indeed, James. James O'Brien on LBC

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