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“I think Zack Polanski's policing comments are really bad” | James O’Brien - The Whole Show
May 3, 2026
This is a catch-up version of James O'Brien's live, daily show on LBC Radio from the 1st of May, 2026. 00:00 - How big a misstep by Polanski is this? 51:03 - Antisemitism fears as police review London marches over terror threat - How do we know these are "hate marches"? 01:41:06 - How do you convince a sceptic that birdwatching is worth it? 02:23:30 – Full Disclosure, Emma Grede Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #jamesobrien #politics #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Three minutes after ten. So, at risk of sounding pompous, let me rephrase that. At risk of sounding unintentionally pompous
0:12
I see our programme, the programme that we make together every day, I see it in part, and only in a very small way
0:20
as pushing back against some of the dominant and very dishonest narratives
0:25
Wherever you choose to begin, whether it's in the obvious place, ten years ago, almost to the day
0:31
or whether it is in less obvious positions. My personal discovery that the industry I had dreamt of joining
0:38
since being in short trousers was riven with sycophancy, moral corruption and shills
0:46
But I'd see our role, or not our role, that's too pompous even for me
0:50
I'd see our programme, and it is our programme, as pushing back a little bit against the very dominant narratives
0:58
that our media is dominated by because the people that own our media
1:02
want it to be dominated by those narratives. Just a quick and very recent example
1:08
there is going to be a shift from attacking migrants to attacking welfare claimants, people on benefits
1:14
including sickness and disability benefits. There was a hideous story in the news yesterday
1:19
I didn't get around to sharing with you about an increase in the abuse being directed at people using bona fide users of blue badges
1:27
to denote a disability when they park their vehicle. Because the same people that sold you Brexit and racism are now selling you the idea
1:37
that everybody who has got a blue badge in the back of their car is either a fraudster or a liar or both
1:43
So those are the things that we push back against. Those are examples of things that we push back against
1:50
so when the Daily Mail started describing the Green Party as the Green
1:54
Menace and posting regularly on any story looking at the Green Party and looking at its leader
2:00
Zach Polanski with a specially designed little, what would you call it
2:04
graphic, a specially designed little graphic beware the Green Menace and Green Menace
2:10
is in green with a sort of weird effect on it as if someone has been
2:16
scratching at the words with their fingernails, beware the green menace, you feel, or I find myself feeling, that, well, that's
2:25
something we should be keeping an eye on. That is something that probably gets filed under the
2:32
elements of discourse that we see ourselves pushing back against. You know, give them a chance
2:39
give them an even break. And I intend to. I'm just sharing all of this with you because I want you
2:45
I mean, for what it's worth, for the people who care about such things
2:50
I want you to have a full understanding of the context of the question that I am about to ask you
2:56
So I've been watching the rise of the Green Party and the by-election success in Gorton and Denton
3:04
and the media savviness, I think I would say, of the leader, Zach Polanski
3:09
Polanski and the attempt by some members of this profession to either minimize, demonize or
3:19
denigrate him a little bit too much, focus on his previous career as a hypnotist when he made some
3:26
slightly questionable claims, I think it's fair to say. But I don't know why you would focus on that
3:31
more than you would focus on other things that don't involve sort of hatred, discrimination
3:37
racism, anti-Semitism from people's past. So I'm keeping... I've got what I would call it is a watching brief
3:45
I have concerns. I suppose I have hopes and concerns about all new political faces
3:51
and new political movements that don't appear to be part of the continent's lurch
3:57
towards the far right. Okay? I just want to get that out there
4:03
I really want to get that established, OK? Because when the chief of the Metropolitan Police slaps down a politician
4:15
I also find my natural impulses leaning in ways that are kind of..
4:23
Well, I'd normally worry, particularly if it's a politician from the left
4:29
because you somewhat lazily, and this is a little bit undergraduate, I don't apologise for that
4:39
I'm being completely honest with you. I kind of find myself thinking, oh, you've got an authoritarian police officer
4:44
swinging at a left-leaning politician. That rarely ends well. But I like Mark Rowley
4:52
I mean, you can sue me for that if you want. I like his style. I really don't like his refusal to use the word institutional
4:58
when describing the racism that every single report and inquiry into the Metropolitan Police Service has established
5:04
and proof of which is provided, it sometimes feels, on an almost daily basis
5:11
And yet, I think he has got it entirely right today. I can't quite believe that anybody
5:21
let alone somebody who is currently enjoying some time in the political sun
5:28
would choose to share or indulge in criticism of the officers that apprehended the 45-year-old man
5:40
who has now been charged with attempted murder after the Golders-Green attack, a fact, a simple matter of fact
5:45
that means we can and will say no more about it. We will say no more about it
5:51
Because of, I mean, rather obvious legal reasons. And I mean no more about it
5:55
So we don't need to refer back to that at all. We refer entirely to the head of the Metropolitan Police Service
6:03
choosing a relatively rare tactic of sending a strongly worded public letter
6:11
to a party leader, a leader of a party that is polling very, very well at the moment
6:17
describing a casual disregard for the incredibly challenging and dangerous work police officers do to protect the public
6:24
And because it's Mark Rowley, I find myself thinking this is not part of the attempt to demonize and denigrate Zach Polanski
6:34
for the crime of not being a politician determined to do the bidding of the kind of people that own the Daily Mail
6:40
or fund the lobby groups on Tofton Street that laughingly describe themselves as think tanks
6:45
So do you understand why I've gone to the trouble of explaining this to you? I hope you do because I am conscious of dishonest denigration being underway
6:54
and I don't want to let my opposition to dishonest denigration blunt my own objectivity
7:03
or my own political powers such as they are of political scrutiny
7:07
I want to be able to say this is a really big mistake without worrying that I've been brainwashed or misled into that
7:16
by the broader, by the wider media denigration, denigration by this ludicrous beware the green menace in a newspaper that told you Liz Truss was going to be a genius And beware the green menace And so all that sounds very calm and thoughtful right So you might be surprised to learn that when I read what he had done
7:37
I was bloody furious. I have a weird... All that I've said about the racism in the Met, I stand by
7:43
They are, I mean, a profoundly imperfect service. I'm a middle-aged white man
7:47
so I am unlikely ever to really be on the sharp end of the most unpleasant veins of thought and behaviour
7:54
that run through the Metropolitan Police. But I also have, and I make no apology for this
8:01
I discovered it during a round of industrial action taken by the fire service shortly after I got this job
8:07
going back, I mean, a long, long time now. And I sat there watching newspaper coverage
8:12
and marvelling. It was just, I was right on the cusp of my old life and my new life
8:21
My old life when all I wanted to be was a newspaper person, like my late father
8:26
And the dawning realisation, A, that I wasn't very good at it. And B, that I wasn't, um, I wasn't as enamoured of that industry as I thought I was going to be
8:36
I was very lucky I got to work for a newspaper that was a sort of short-lived experimentation in liberal populism
8:41
And I did very well. I gotta say I wasn't very good at it. I was show business editor of a national newspaper by the time I was 28
8:46
But when that came around, what am I going to do next? Am I going to move on to the editorial floor
8:51
Am I going to, you know, become an executive who's not writing
8:55
Or am I going to try and become a columnist? I sort of found that I didn't really want to. I found that I didn't really want to
9:02
And so I moved into this industry. Very luckily, I was at 80% luck
9:07
And it turned out I could do it. I could do a job. And I watched some of the people I used to work with
9:11
This was a huge moment for me. It was a life-changing moment
9:15
I watched some of the people I used to work with attack firefighters. And I couldn't believe what I was reading or watching
9:25
I watched, I don't think it would be appropriate to name them. Most of them have been long forgotten now, to be honest
9:31
But they were queuing up, people that I'd broken bread with, people to whose homes I had been for dinner
9:36
people who I had shared pints with in the pub and banter with in the office
9:41
and people I'd done paper reviews with on the telly when I used to still do those largely thankless exercises
9:48
in turning up in Austerle at half past one in the morning to have a look at the next day's front pages
9:53
So I knew these people well and I considered them to be friends. And I started reading their columns
9:59
about how the firefighters were taking the mickey and the firefighters were all a bunch of unionised clowns
10:05
and how they all had second jobs in Ibiza. And I'd never really clocked before
10:10
because I was a showbiz journalist. I wasn't a political journalist. You offered me the chance when I was in my mid-twenties
10:16
to follow Norman Lamont around or Norman Cook. I was going to choose Norman Cook every time, all day long
10:21
It's this blimmin' job that's radicalised me. And I couldn't believe it
10:26
And it was when I first discovered a real sense of moral outrage
10:32
at the industry I had always wanted to be part of. I found myself thinking
10:36
how can you be joining attacks on the men and women who run into our own homes while we are running out of them
10:44
How can you possibly be attacked? And listen, nobody's perfect like any other profession
10:49
like any other group of human beings. There will be bad people in it and good people in it
10:54
But of course, unless you're a refugee or an immigrant in this country, nobody really thinks that you as a good person
10:59
should be punished for the actions of a bad person. But as a generality
11:03
the emergency services are a force for immense good. and the fire service and the police are the bravest of them
11:10
There's no criticism of paramedics, but you do not routinely, I know you do find yourselves in hideous circumstances
11:17
but you do routinely run towards danger. That is what you do
11:25
I am disappointed, writes Mark Rowley, because it is this kind of inaccurate and misinformed commentary
11:31
that is contributing to the rising tensions we are seeing in society
11:34
and undermines officer confidence to act. This after the leader of the Green Party shared a post on X
11:44
I wonder whether you could make a case for telling politicians to get off X. Probably not, sadly
11:49
Someone would have to lead, wouldn't they? That claimed that the two policemen were violently kicking a mentally ill man in the head
11:57
Which, I suppose, and we can say very, very little about that case
12:01
is possibly technically true. but when Sir Mark Rowley describes apprehending violent and dangerous criminals
12:09
as a full contact and messy task which may appear shocking to observers
12:14
with little experience of policing in the real world your decision to criticise these officers
12:19
using your public profile and reach will have a chilling effect. I said to you yesterday
12:29
because I'd only read this cursorily I said to you yesterday that they were fearful, possibly
12:40
of it being a suicide attack and that is why when the suspect
12:47
refused to show his hands they resorted to very serious actions and I think that's almost unbelievably brave
12:59
I mean I really do this is where the emotion kicked in
13:04
both anger and admiration what would you do in those circumstances two police officers
13:13
I actually don't know what happens does the adrenaline take over were they terrified
13:19
do they hit a zone do they move into a sort of space
13:24
that the rest of us rarely or never experience they are apprehending a man who they believe has stabbed two people
13:34
and who is clearly in a Jewish area of London and who therefore may well be a terrorist
13:45
This is what's going through their minds in that moment. They knew he had, or they believed he had a weapon, at least
13:53
And they, I think, are entitled to do whatever the hell they want to do
13:57
in order to make sure that they get him under control as quickly and as safely for everybody present as possible
14:06
So, how bad is this? So this is the first time Zach Polanski has been asked, really
14:15
to flex the power of his newfound status. It's the first massive public moment that party leaders..
14:23
And yesterday I was criticising the other ones. I was criticising the ones that turned up in order to try and make some political capital
14:29
including the one whose own school contemporaries remember him, insisting that Hitler was right and that the Jews should be gassed
14:35
but there's never been a bandwagon that Nigel Farage won't jump on, regardless of how hypocritical or deceitful the activity may be
14:43
So yesterday I was criticising other politicians for their behaviour. So it's not in any way a partisan..
14:51
I don't need to tell you that, you know that. I guess I just second guessing what people will pretend to believe So people making political capital of it from one side of the divide came in for my criticism yesterday
15:06
Today, I'm wondering whether what he's done is worse. Mark Rowley got booed in Golders Green yesterday
15:14
I think that was unfortunate as well, but I'm not telling people in Golders Green how to conduct themselves
15:22
Or was it the day before, perhaps? Forgive me. I'm not telling people in Golders Green how to conduct themselves
15:28
or how to get their emotions under control at a time like this. Perish the thought
15:32
I am entitled to both think and say that that was an unfortunate intervention
15:39
But they have just witnessed a horror in the midst of their communities
15:44
Zach Polanski hasn't. He is Jewish. Let me be absolutely clear about that
15:48
And his name, he changed his name in order to reflect his Jewish heritage, which I think his parents or his grandparents
15:54
had jettisoned in order to avoid anti-Semitism. So, you know, that is an act of courage
16:00
and an act of anti-anti-Semitism, if that's even a thing. Well, of course it is. We're all anti-Semitism
16:10
But I think this is awful. And I want to know whether you do
16:17
Also, maybe you need to know a little bit more about police... Maybe you need to be a police officer to really dig into the weeds of this bit of Mark Rowley's comments
16:26
Your decision to criticise these officers using your public profile and reach will have a chilling effect
16:32
Will it? Will it? I mean, again, I said to you, didn't I, a minute ago, Wednesday lunchtime
16:39
I would have said to you the only thing we can say with any certainty here is that the police officer is going to get medals and everybody is going to applaud them and admire them
16:47
and here we are, two days later completely wrong so how big a misstep
16:56
is this for Zach Polanski and who do you agree with how much
17:01
do you agree, if at all with Sir Mark Rowley and how accurate is it
17:09
to cast the impact of what the Green Party leader has done far beyond this moment
17:15
and to say that he has actually had a chilling effect, his decision has had a chilling effect on policing itself
17:26
I really want to know what you think about this, because I've tied myself in a bit of a knot
17:30
and I'd quite like to untie it. I almost want your permission to be furious with him
17:36
But I'm holding back from being furious with him because I don't want to become part of the process of demonisation and denigration
17:41
that the rest of the media is up to. But that's his fault, not my fault
17:44
that he's done this thing. I think it's really, really bad. 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need
17:54
simply to tell me how big a misstep this is, if at all, and how much you agree or disagree with Sir Mark Rowley
18:01
whose words I will play you immediately after this. James O'Brien on LBC
18:06
It is 23 minutes after 10, and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
18:11
I'm probably tying myself in too many knots, Because you can simply say, you know, denigrating and demonising a politician from the left is awful and par for the course and they're bound to do it
18:23
But this particular politician from the left has made a really, really crass error in joining in criticism of the police who apprehended the suspect in the Golders Green attacks
18:35
But how big an error is it? Oh no, let's just have a quick listen to Mark Rowley talking about it
18:40
To Nick Ferrari earlier this morning. I'm not interested in politics but if somebody
18:45
eminent rather than some of the oddballs on social media, if someone eminent
18:49
says something or does something which I see has a risk to undermining the confidence of my officers to act
18:56
because they need that sense of public support then I need to intervene on that and that's what I did with that letter
19:00
Can you imagine being in that situation without a firearm it is the most extraordinary bit of policing
19:04
and I need officers to see that they are going to get
19:07
my support and public support for that and that's interesting the correspondence with
19:13
Zach Polanski, the support it's received online from the wider community is really heartwarming for officers
19:19
to see. Is Mr Polanski being ignorant? Rabble-rousing? What's he doing? So, that's for
19:25
others to talk about that. I'm just dealing with the confidence of my officers to protect the public
19:30
So, there's the sort of technical and operational element of this as well, which you will need
19:35
experiences that I have never had to comment on, but there's also the sort of
19:39
moral and political angle too. So a lot to get through. Let's start in Dudley
19:44
Nick's there. Nick, what would you like to say? Morning, James. I've told you before
19:49
I've had my head turned by the Green Party in the last six, nine months or so. But I think that Polanski has dropped
19:55
an absolute clangour here. My concerns with the Green Party remain around what they would do on the economy
20:01
and what they would do on security. And I think that latter point is linking into this now
20:06
I mean, first of all, who'd be a police officer now? who would join up and say
20:11
yeah, I'm going to carry a taser or even go into firearms when the scrutiny that you get after discharging them
20:17
is the level, isn't it, where you cannot be seen to do right from wrong
20:22
I don't know what people want to have been done differently by the police, if truth be told, in that instance
20:27
If you watch the footage, you could arrive at the conclusion that the guy had already been successfully subdued
20:33
And, you know, this is the age of social media and that they didn't need to go any further
20:39
And we can't, you know, endorse going further, even as we would struggle to determine or define exactly what going further is
20:47
But I can see why some people watched the footage and felt profoundly jarred. I was profoundly jarred watching a flipping shoplifter get apprehended
20:54
in Chiswick, Marks and Spencers the other day. So violence, unless you're inured to it, violence will always affect people
21:00
But if you're ever going to want it, let alone excuse it, it would be in a moment like this
21:07
Yeah, I agree. I don't think the police have done a fat lot wrong from what I have seen
21:12
But I think Zach Polanski's problem is he is looking at 50 years down the line
21:18
in some woolly world where we've got all these social interventions which reduce crime
21:22
And that's great. On his podcast a week or so ago, we had two ladies on who were talking about
21:28
basically how you can probably reduce 80% of prison people if you'd intervened early enough in society
21:33
Which is true, I think. Which is true, and in principle, I don't have an issue with that
21:38
The problem is that is not going to happen two days after an election with Polanski as PM
21:44
or even five years down the line. This is a long-term strategy. So we're talking about..
21:49
Go on, sorry. What he's done is undermining the police in the current world and the current reality
21:56
which is going to be the case. Let's say there's an election tomorrow and the Greens have a majority and they're the government
22:01
You're frightening the life out of me, man, because you know we're in Perda for the council elections next week
22:05
You're playing a blinder. You're walking the tightrope. No, you're not doing anything wrong
22:09
I'm just nervous. And I'm reminding you as well, because we can't go anywhere near that
22:15
because it's me that gets into trouble. You'll be fine. You'll be off to Dudley Zoo. I'll be the one getting hauled over the coals by Ofcom
22:21
So, no, I hear you. So I mean so it not an unfortunate misstep for you It rather more significant than that because you already extrapolating from it to much broader observations much broader political conclusions
22:35
Correct. Yeah, all right, man. I'm thinking what the long term is with this
22:39
and what they would be looking to implement. And this is a course
22:44
and I'm glad that you said from the outset that you were generally warm towards him
22:48
and indeed them, because people who fear them electorally will, of course, be making points similar to yours
22:54
for potentially or perhaps rather different reasons. So you have the Home Office Minister, Mike Tapp
23:00
saying that he was disgusted and claiming that the Green Party had hit a new low
23:04
Labour MP David Taylor saying Zach Polanski's sympathy for a marauding anti-Semitic terrorist
23:09
rather than his victims shows why his Green Party is dangerous. But he then adds something
23:16
that could have come out of my mouth a moment ago. How can anyone watch that video from Golders Green
23:21
and not feel proud of the way those brave police officers wrestled with the attacker who would not let go of his knife
23:29
I wonder whether it is, as Nick suggests, evidence of something more broadly troubling
23:35
And we are responding to something he has done. So, listen, by all means
23:40
if you've got nothing better to do this morning than to resurrect the ghost of Jeremy Corbyn
23:44
and claim that Zach Polanski is being demonised and denigrated in the same way
23:49
then just have a little look at what the head of the Met is saying and why
23:54
and ask yourself what you would say to the police officers that he chose to attack in the immediate aftermath
24:00
of their successful apprehending of a profoundly dangerous suspect. What would you say to the police officers
24:07
I've only got four messages mentioning Jeremy Corbyn, but, you know, it's like Banquo's ghost, isn't it
24:13
What would you say to the police officers? Oh, yes, no, it's nothing to do with you being attacked by him
24:19
This is all about him being attacked by them. I don't get that position, but I acknowledge its existence
24:24
Coming up to half past ten, Met Police Chief accuses senior politician of spouting misinformed rhetoric about officers who strike the rest of us as heroes
24:35
I just want your response to this moment, actually, from whatever perspective
24:40
0345 6060 973. Lottie Morley has your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC
24:48
It is 32 minutes after ten. And I suppose Nick and Dudley kicking this question a little further than I had managed to
24:56
despite spending an awful lot of time talking, me, not him, which is whether or not this is evidence of a broader problem
25:04
And my jury is still out on that. But I do feel that Polanski, the leader of the Green Party
25:10
has behaved absolutely appallingly in joining in criticism of the police officers
25:15
responsible for apprehending the suspect in the Golders Green attacks. And listen, if you find any of my language questionable, it's for legal reasons
25:24
I do occasionally get a text that isn't unhinged. Questioning, querying rather than attacking some of the words that I choose to use for legal reasons when cases are still live
25:38
10.33 is the time. Theo is in Islington. Theo, what would you like to say? Good morning, James
25:43
Good morning. So before I became a journalist, I served for seven years within the Metropolitan Police
25:52
And this kind of thing from Mr. Polanski does absolutely have a chilling effect
25:58
And I've got to say to Sir Mark Rowley, this is a bit of a breath of fresh air
26:04
and it is good to see the commissioner publicly loudly and really sticking his head over the
26:13
parapet to defend these officers which is not something that my former colleagues and i
26:21
certainly felt we've had much of before i'm just letting that settle actually i'm not going to push
26:29
back against that. I can't, you know, walk in your shoes or their shoes, but feeling supported
26:35
from the top is one of the absolutely finest things that anybody in any
26:39
job can enjoy. What about this question of undermining or the chilling effect
26:45
for the future? Would you go that far? I would, yeah, and I saw this anecdotally
26:54
in first person. When a significant event happens, I saw my colleagues say well I'm just not going to risk that
27:02
I'm not going to stop that vehicle even if it's a bit suspicious
27:06
I'm not going to get involved above and beyond and those officers absolutely went above and beyond
27:13
a knife-wielding suspect in that manner requires by the SOPs of course reality gets in the way an armed intervention
27:22
and the suggestion that he had already been satisfactorily subdued by the taser, which is coming from a lot of armchair experts
27:31
No, absolutely not the case. A taser is an effective tool. However, it does not always work, and it turns off
27:41
Once the muscle release goes, that person may be a bit dazed
27:45
but he still has the knife in his hand, and those officers are still fighting for their lives
27:49
You can get slightly nicked with a knife and suffer a serious, serious injury
27:56
the inside of the leg, the wrist, the arm, the neck, any of those areas can lead to your death
28:04
So, I mean, support from not necessarily within the ranks anymore, but I imagine that your views, your thoughts
28:10
would be echoed by pretty much everybody who is. So then I nudge you towards the second element of today's question
28:16
which is how big a misstep is this, given that it's very, very hard for honest people
28:22
to get a clear bead on Zach Polanski, because dishonest people in the media are so busy distorting that lens
28:30
Well, it feeds that narrative that is being told about the Green Party, isn't it
28:35
Yes, it does. But set all of the narrative aside. Focus exclusively on this issue
28:39
And one of his first big tests as a major political player on the national stage
28:46
how big a misstep is this for you personally? For me personally, it's a very significant misstep
28:52
Okay. I see it on the centre-left, I would say. So the Greens are a little bit far for me
28:58
Sure. But it confirms some of my fears about the Green Party
29:03
And I think that, I don't want to speculate too much about what Mr Polanski
29:08
you know, why he did it, but it seems to me like a bit of a knee-jerk. Oh, I agree with that. I'll retweet it
29:13
Yeah. Yeah. And then there's a lack of thoughtfulness there, which, of course, social media absolutely incubates
29:19
but which you have to do better once you achieve a certain status
29:23
or once you're undertaking a certain role. I think, listen, there's absolutely no reason
29:29
why there has to be a consensus on this question, but I think that if you're going to disagree with Theo or with me
29:35
then you need to have your ducks in a row, that's all, isn't it
29:39
Steve's in Peterborough. Steve, what made you pick up the phone? Morning, James. Just a little bit of context
29:44
I suppose politically, I don't support the Green Party, but I've certainly been interested in some of the recent activity by the Green Party
29:55
but probably more significantly for this conversation. I spent 20 years in the Met Police
30:00
I was a tactical firearms commander, so led a number of firearms operations
30:06
And I just don't understand why, in the context of that situation
30:12
Zach thought that the best thing that he could do in that scenario was to try and criticise the police officers who ran into danger
30:19
Even if, as you said, on the face of it, you look at that video and you might be inclined to think, oh, have they gone a bit far
30:27
is that a bit over the top, which I completely disagree with. I think actually what they
30:31
did was entirely in keeping with the sort of force that's needed to subdue
30:37
someone who's, let's be honest, only got murder on their mind. So, yeah, I mean..
30:43
But even if you were inclined to think that actually maybe that needs to look at
30:47
like, how is... I don't understand how in that particular situation, the
30:53
leader of a political party thought that the best thing they could do would be to try and criticise the police
30:58
That's brilliantly put, actually, because you're turning it into a judgement question
31:03
and you are... Well, I mean, it was already a judgement question, but it's a conscious thing
31:09
The best defence he's got, really, is that he did it without thinking, which is bad enough, because his job is to think
31:15
Well, that's it, and then ultimately what he's admitting to then is that he's just trying to appeal to people's base instincts
31:22
i.e., if you are... Take the police. If you are someone who doesn't like the police, who is inclined to be mistrusting of organisations like the police
31:34
then they will read that and they will immediately sort of be aligned with you
31:38
Well, actually, in situations like this, what you need is people to step back the objective and try and look at the evidence
31:45
And he must have people around him who know how policing works
31:49
and what situations like that entail when it comes to the use of reasonable force
31:54
and even just common sense. You've got someone with a knife who's trying to kill people
31:59
who is then failing to comply with your commands who, let's be honest, we don't know what else may have been happening
32:08
in relation to stuff that he may have had on his body. And that's, you know, with hindsight, these things are easy
32:13
but those officers are running into danger not knowing what they are facing
32:17
or what is about to happen and all they're trying to do is neutralise that threat
32:23
And the reality is if armed police had turned up first I think he would have likely probably been shot
32:28
Yes, well I mean I'm not pushing back against you with 20 years in precisely the job
32:33
that would have been turning up armed so a few people have made that point already
32:37
but none are going to make it as powerfully as you. And I mean the other element of Nija
32:41
and the best defence and I'll acknowledge this throughout, is that he wasn't thinking straight
32:46
and he did it in a fit of, you know, emotion. But in that case, I think a very swift withdrawal and apology
32:53
would be the order of the day. And with every ticking minute, that becomes A, less likely to happen
32:59
and B, less effective if and when it does happen. So it also, and this opens the door to criticism
33:05
that will be both fair and unfair, depending on who's making it and why
33:09
it also opens the door to criticism that he has, in the absolute moment of terror
33:15
expressed more sympathy for the perpetrator than for victims. Yeah, and that's how you say it
33:21
That's why I think it's tone deaf from him. And I think, actually, if he came out and apologized very quickly
33:28
then maybe I fear that this potentially might be a fatal error he's made
33:36
You've been penicillin, of course. yeah i think mark rowley actually was entirely right to come out and in defense of those officers
33:43
yes well i'm not surprised and as theo said earlier a former member of the met it isn't
33:49
always the case that the head man or woman feel that they can or should or could um display such
33:55
obvious and explicit solidarity but goodness me um i can't really account for it any more than
34:02
steve can as to what would go through your head at the moment like that we've all posted stupid things on social media
34:09
sometimes accidentally, of course. One of our callers yesterday was still very angry
34:13
understandably, on one level, with Gary Lineker for something he accidentally posted
34:17
quite a while ago now. So it happens. But actually, Gary's quite a good example
34:23
of what you do when you have done something without noticing what you were doing
34:27
which I don't think Polanski can claim, or without properly thinking through what you have done
34:33
which is his defence. But in Lineker's case, it was absolute unawareness of the graphic in the, I think, in the corner of the screen of the message he was sharing
34:44
So you can simply say, I don't know what, I can't believe I did it
34:49
And of course, if you're defending him, you can say, I, I, I, it's only a, he's only a retweet, it's only a share, anyone can do that
34:59
But if he doesn't apologize, he undermines your defense of him, I think, in many ways
35:03
03456060973 is the number that you need. 10.43 is the time. Derek is in Doncaster
35:12
Derek, what would you like to say? Good morning, James. Hello, mate. I can't really..
35:17
I don't want to talk about the following two police officers' talks. I don't really want to talk about the incident
35:22
other than the police officers involved would have been very aware of the limitations
35:26
of what they could and couldn't do. Yes. They didn't know if someone else was going to jump in
35:31
that was associated with him. That's also true. That's also true. Yeah, you don't know
35:37
You're only focusing on the man on the ground. There might have been an accomplice there that could have been coming in or whatever
35:41
I don't know. So from their point of view, they absolutely did the right thing
35:45
They neutralized it as quickly as they possibly did. Talking about Zach Polanski, I think part of it is he's been around, what, a year now
35:56
And everyone who likes what he's sort of proposing is quietly in admiration of him
36:02
and to be fair, the only way the media have been trying to trip him up is about some
36:06
hypnotist job that he had about 10 years ago which I think is gibberish
36:10
or close to gibberish I mean it happened, don't get me wrong, it happened
36:14
but the idea that I'm supposed to care more about that than I do about Nigel Farage marching around
36:18
Dulwich College shouting gas the Jews according to people that were there with him
36:22
is just laughable and that's exactly it so I think if you like me in addition to him
36:28
and you admire him, this is the first time he's properly messed up
36:31
he didn't do it consciously. It was probably a week that he just sent out
36:36
on the spur of the moment. Then you just say so. Then you just say so
36:40
Yeah. He needs to own it. He needs to step up, say, look, I messed up
36:44
I'm really sorry. Whatever it is that... The problem is, is everyone's been itching for him to trip up like this
36:50
and they will be all over it. Yeah, but that doesn't mean that those of us
36:54
who haven't been itching for him to trip up can ignore it or pretend that he hasn't tripped up
36:59
because that way Corbyn 2.0 lies. Yeah, and this is the point where he shows leadership and ownership
37:06
and he sorts it out. But I think, yes, I understand your anger
37:12
but I think there's also an element of disappointment in him. Yes
37:16
I think we need to realise, you know what, he's gone a long while without tripping up majorly
37:23
And hopefully he get back on an even keel as quickly as possible in the broader interest of democracy But you have to wait and see whether or not he decides to just hope that this one goes away
37:35
or whether or not he decides to acknowledge error or admit error
37:39
But if he doesn't think he's made an error, then it would be, I don't know, it becomes even trickier to insist that he does
37:45
Of course, reposting inflammatory and misleading social media in the midst of a live crime situation
37:53
or in the midst of a hideous crime situation is something that Nigel Farage wrote the book about
37:58
I suppose we should be grateful that Polanski's intervention in this case didn't actually cause any pogroms or race riots
38:03
It's 10.45. James O'Brien on LBC. 10.49 is the time the head of the Metropolitan Police
38:11
takes the rare step of publicly and explicitly criticising a senior politician
38:18
And I think it's fairly clear that most, if not pretty much many people
38:25
think that Mark Rowley has got this completely right and that Zach Polanski has dropped something of a clangour
38:29
by expressing concern for how the suspect was being treated by the police who apprehended him
38:36
after the Golders Green attacks on Wednesday, 10.49. John's in Wembley. John, what would you like to say
38:43
Hi, James. Right, I kind of see where Zach Polanski was coming from
38:51
Okay. And let me explain. Of course. In 2016, there was a well-known footballer
38:56
that played for Aston Villa called Dalian Atkinson. Yes. And he had a mental episode
39:02
The police attended and subduted him and everything, tainted him and everything
39:08
and he died of a cardiac arrest. The policeman that was involved in that arrest
39:13
kicked him in the head. He did. He's in jail now for eight years
39:18
Benjamin Monk, I think, is his name. Yeah. Now... Go on. As I said to your... when I was... when I phoned up, I said
39:26
look, fine, investigate it. Investigate what happened in Golders Green. Not a problem
39:32
But there's a case... there is... there is a precedent here. No, there's not. There's not a precedent, mate
39:37
Why not? Tell me, James. Why? Because nobody thought that Daly and Atkinson might be a suicide bomber
39:43
or saw that he was carrying a knife. Well, all due respect, James, yesterday I didn't believe he was a suicide bomber
39:49
Well, that's not the point, is it? The police officers have to behave as if he might be
39:54
How do you know he wasn't? Well, that's my point. He's just undertaken..
40:00
I'm not going to have an argument with you. This is silly
40:04
Nobody thought... Dahlien Atkinson was not carrying a knife and there was no evidence that he had harmed anybody else
40:12
I think he'd broken a window in his father's front door. He was under the impression that he was the Messiah
40:18
all of the evidence that was presented in court painted a picture of someone who needed care and concern
40:24
Not a picture of someone suspected of stabbing two people and quite possibly being in the middle of a continuing terror attack
40:32
So what happened to Daly and Atkins? No, you have to know. Yeah, but this is silly now
40:38
Sorry, John. No, it's not silly, James. It is, John, because... No, it's not. Sorry. Don't say I'm silly
40:43
I'm not saying you're silly. He was kicking him in the head. Yeah, but they're completely different circumstances
40:48
in which case one mode of... Oh, okay, different circumstances. So a kick in the head is different
40:52
Yes, of course it is, if it's somebody you think... Oh, James. John. Wait. What
40:57
You don't know what you... A kick in the head is a kick in the head. No, it's not. If someone's carrying a knife
41:01
you are allowed to treat them differently from someone who is not carrying a knife. Surely you understand that
41:06
Oh, James. What? I see all this... Right, this is another thing
41:10
Let me just finish on this. No, let me just clarify that you do understand that the police... No, no, no
41:14
Well, you have to. I understand. I'm not stupid, James. I'm not saying you are stupid
41:18
I'm saying that you're being a bit silly. So if you're carrying a knife, you can expect much more heavy-handed treatment
41:23
from a police officer should you refuse to give up that knife than you can if you are not carrying a knife
41:28
Full stop, John. James, let me tell you something. Personally, if someone is carrying a knife or not
41:34
and I'm in an altercation with them, things are going to happen, okay
41:39
That's for me personally. But I'm saying to you, James, if you look across the pond
41:45
Yeah. Any police officer in America that has kicked, punched or whatever, they've been dismissed
41:52
Obviously here... Again, they haven't. We've got a different attitude towards it. They really haven't
41:56
You can shoot people as a police officer. I mean, look at the ICE agents. They shot someone in the face in Minneapolis just two months ago and they didn't get fired
42:03
I'm focusing on kicking in the head and punching. All right. Okay
42:07
So you're going to get fired for kicking someone in the head but not for shooting someone in the face
42:11
Oh, James, yeah, but you're... John, I don't know. I think we're on slightly different planets this morning
42:16
We're on slightly different planets this morning, and I look forward to meeting you again on the same one
42:22
And it may well be, in a parallel universe, that you are completely right
42:26
But if you're comparing the horrible treatment of Dalian Atkinson, who hadn't committed any crime
42:33
wasn't suspected of having recently stabbed two people, was not, by any stretch of the imagination
42:38
embarked upon a terror attack that was far from over, was not posing a serious threat to absolutely everybody in the vicinity
42:46
if you think there's a policing parallel to be drawn between him and someone who was all of those things
42:53
then I, um... I mean, I can't really see much point in going anywhere else
43:00
through this conversation except to say, take care and have a lovely weekend. It's 10.54. Chris is in Haywards Heath
43:05
Chris, what do you think? Hi there, James. My first time calling, so be gentle, please
43:09
Of course I will. I'm gentle with everybody, as I just proved, actually. So I spent 31 years in the Met
43:15
and I did eight years with Sussex Police. But one of my jobs in the Met was
43:21
I used to train police officers in use of force and self-defence training. So you're in your comfort zone when you're looking at footage like this
43:28
professionally speaking. No one enjoys it. Well, particularly in the sense that I was one of the country's
43:35
leading subject matter experts in use of force. Okay. So I would go to, for example, maybe a coroner's inquest, a criminal court or a discipline board advising around police officers' use of force
43:50
And my main point here is the body-worn camera footage is brilliant
43:58
but what it doesn't do is it doesn't contextualize the thought process and the fears and what is going through the officer's mind when they deal with what they're dealing with
44:11
For example, what other information they have. Clearly that will all come out in due course, but that is something that people need to take into account
44:20
It's all very well and good looking at body-worn camera footage, but it's what's going through the officer's mind at the time
44:27
And the other thing I would say is whenever I gave evidence at any form of inquest or court case
44:33
I would always say training never replicates what goes through an officer's mind
44:42
The fears that when they're actually dealing with an incident alive, you can never replicate it at all
44:49
Not even close, I don't imagine. You can do a million days of training. You can prepare for incidents like this for an entire career
44:54
But until you smack in the middle of it you got absolutely no idea what you going to do or what is going to happen Let me nudge you if I may then towards the commissioner intervention
45:05
and the talk of a chilling effect for Polanski to have decided in that moment
45:14
to criticise the officers or to join in with criticism of the officers
45:18
Do you think that Mark Rowley is getting a little bit carried away
45:22
when he describes it having a chilling effect more broadly. Well, I think there's quite a difference
45:29
between police officers of my era and police officers of the modern era
45:34
OK. And it's far more difficult to be a police officer now
45:40
than when I was a police officer because you've got mobile phones, CCTV..
45:45
There's a lot more scrutiny. Now, that is largely, in my opinion, a good thing. Yeah, it is
45:51
But I think Mark Rowley coming out and supporting the officers in this instance is exactly what's needed
45:56
Because otherwise what will happen is police officers will become fearful of dealing with things
46:01
And let me turn this on its head slightly. Imagine if the officers had turned up and not used that, or I think it's an appropriate level of force
46:12
and the suspect had got up, stabbed one of them, and then gone on to stab another member of the public
46:19
What would be the criticism there? I think we can answer that question quite easily, and it's a brilliantly rhetorical question that you pose. Thank you, Chris. The subject matter is too serious for Ray Liotas today, but it is notable once again how many people are kind enough to call in from positions of real professional expertise and experience. 10.57 is the time. Steve's in Godston. Steve, what made you pick up the phone
46:41
yeah good morning James first of all I totally agree with your last caller
46:46
and I totally disagree with the one before that and I admire your diplomacy
46:51
for calling that one silly and I'm not sure what planet he's on either
46:55
I served for 30 years I was in the Met for 30 years and as soon as I saw that footage
47:02
the other day my friends and colleagues that I served with almost collectively said
47:08
let's just wait for the complaint to come in Oh, my gosh. And that was, you know, you're looking at, like, officers that all serve 30 years
47:16
I mean, a little bit of cynicism involved, but there's a difference between the complaint coming in from
47:20
I think Rowley himself described them as the sort of usual clowns on social media
47:24
not his words, mine, and the leader of an increasingly serious political party
47:30
Sure, absolutely. And I'm really disappointed in Zach Polanski. And the question I would ask is, what was the point of it
47:37
I don't really understand what the point is. But we were always, when I served, when I did my authority
47:43
we were always under the impression that there wasn't a huge amount of support. So I absolutely doffed my captain, Mark Rowley, on this occasion
47:50
And I think someone mentioned him putting his head above the pad. And I just say, good on him
47:55
Because I think the police now, as the last caller said, they're very different now to when I joined in 93
48:01
And you were kind of allowed to do your job. And by criticising them, I don't really know
48:07
This is where John in Wembley actually was helpful, because you need to have higher levels of scrutiny
48:16
than were in place a generation ago, because of people like Benjamin Monk
48:21
who unlawfully killed Daly and Atkinson, and you don't want a culture of cover-up
48:26
any more than you want a culture of fear caused by excessive scrutiny
48:30
We're never going to get it perfectly right, but on this occasion, I think, and you think
48:34
and almost everybody contacting the programme thinks that that the police did get it right
48:39
I've been struck, and forgive me for this, because I probably shouldn't have been surprised by it
48:42
I've been struck by the way in which all officers, serving and former
48:47
have shared a sort of sense of unhappiness with what leadership would normally do in these circumstances
48:54
The idea that Roley has moved, you know, before any investigations or any inquiries
49:00
he's moved to show solidarity with his officers in a way that I sense sort of cheers your ex-copper's heart
49:07
Yeah, absolutely. And when the footage came out, I was really surprised
49:11
That was what was happening on the chat groups and stuff. I think it's the first time that the footage has ever been released that quickly
49:19
And there was a reason for that, I think. And that reason is to show that those officers were acting in a situation
49:26
that no member of the public, no normal member of the public has ever been in. And with your last caller, with regards to the use of force
49:33
the people that criticise and the people that, you know, maybe Zach Polanski
49:37
for example, has maybe never even been close to a fight or an armed
49:41
suspect or a dangerous situation so to criticise someone that's trying to do the right thing
49:47
at the time, if the officer had been armed if he'd been fully armed and he was
49:51
acting on the, we all act on the information that we have at the time if they thought he was a suicide bomber or was wearing a vest
49:58
he would have been shot dead probably and that would have been the case in many other countries as well
50:04
or if there had been armed police present on the scene or nearby
50:08
or they'd arrived first then yeah I think you're absolutely right we'd be having a very very different conversation
50:14
thank you Steve I read a couple of messages just for not balance necessarily
50:19
but diversity of view this is from Alex who writes I could give a flying fig about the person charged for the crimes
50:27
but you guys are so scared of a proper left-leaning person coming along and upsetting the right-wing apple cart
50:34
and making society a fairer place that I can almost smell the skid marks, she writes
50:39
And I think, respectfully, a lot more pertinent and sensible, this from Orbelix
50:47
consider that black people might see this differently. Black people have suffered at the hands of these officers
50:52
of 30 years plus in ways that white people have not. Two minutes after 11 is the time
51:00
James O'Brien on LBC. It is five minutes after 11 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
51:08
Another element of the aftermath of Wednesday's attacks is the increasing call for marches in support of Palestinian people to be curtailed or to be stopped
51:24
they got called hate marches very very early on um which is
51:30
unhelpful isn't it because it creates the idea that everybody on that march is engaging in hatred
51:38
and and it was obviously anti-semitic hatred that was being alluded to it's categorically false to
51:44
claim that everybody who has marched in support of palestinian people or or against genocide
51:49
in Gaza, as it sort of became latterly, is either anti-Semitic or expressing hatred of anybody
51:59
And yet that landed, it landed really early in certain quarters, some quite surprising quarters
52:06
And I mentioned that if you're happy with that depiction, then you're obviously happy with maligning people
52:16
completely innocent of the charge that you're levelling. at them while leveling it at others
52:22
And these for me seem to be at the heart of so many problems in society at the moment I misspoke earlier didn I When I said that it only if you a refugee or an immigrant to this country that you going to be held responsible for the actions of complete strangers
52:38
with whom you have got absolutely nothing to do. Obviously, if you're on a march in support of Palestine
52:45
you are also going to be held accountable for complete strangers who you have never met and have absolutely nothing to do with
52:51
But by calling you a hate marcher, you are being punished for their alleged actions or for their activities or for the activities of the people that we are aware of
53:03
I can think of two women who were photographed with images of paragliders on their knapsacks or on their placards, which is just hideous
53:12
It's objectively hideous and clearly a celebration of the October the 7th terror attack in a fairly obvious and hideous way
53:22
You throw the book at people like that. People who chant globalise the Intifada are not calling for, are not all calling for attacks on Jewish people anywhere in the world or everywhere in the world
53:36
But some people who use that phrase seem to be. So it becomes an anti-Semitic phrase
53:41
And for me, the sensible, decent thing to do is to disassociate yourself from phrases that have been corrupted or polluted or that don't have as much nuance as you might have thought that they had
53:52
But you can still go on the march. You just need to perhaps moderate some of your language or your placards
54:00
What we don't have is any really clear idea of how much of this movement is made up of people who are culpable or questionable when it comes to anti-Semitism or hatred
54:21
I'd be really uncomfortable levelling an accusation at 1,000 people if, for example, only 10 of them were guilty of that accusation
54:31
In fact, I wonder what number you'd stop feeling bad about. So here are 1,000 people that you are maligning as racist
54:37
or anti-Semitic or perverted, or whatever it is. There's 1,000 people in a crowd over there
54:45
and you're calling them all racist because you know or you think that 10 of them are
54:51
That feels wrong to me. What if it's 20? Is it okay now? Okay, it's 100
54:57
10% of that crowd over there are wrong-uns. Do you malign the entire crowd
55:02
Do you stop the 900 people from marching because the 100 are culpable or questionable
55:09
100 out of 1,000. Is that enough? 200? I mean, 501, I think it's pretty close to a slam dunk, right
55:17
If it's a plurality of people embarked upon a process, then there is a reason to curtail that process
55:24
There is a reason to censor that speech. But the evidence needs to be absolutely incontrovertible, surely
55:35
Otherwise, not only do you have a freedom of speech problem going on
55:39
although it's unlikely to be complained about by the people who dedicate their lives to pretending that they care about freedom of speech
55:45
and the other thing it might do is turn up the temperature of anti-Semitism
55:49
as a Jewish caller suggested yesterday. that you actually end up putting another burden on the shoulders of British Jews
55:57
by allowing others to claim that they're responsible for the censorship or for the cessation of these marches
56:04
So it's a mess, and I'm not sure it's helpful to anybody to have it front and centre in the immediate aftermath of the attacks in Golders Green
56:12
For example, do we think that the suspect went on any of these marches
56:18
We have absolutely no idea. it seems unlikely. So why are we talking about marches in the context of, do we think that he
56:24
had his head turned by people carrying solidarity with Palestine placards through central London
56:31
It's not impossible. But of course, you can have your head turned by anything. It's not necessarily
56:36
the fault. It's not the fault of the person carrying the placard if you have gone off on
56:40
something of a mental tangent as a consequence of witnessing it. But it's far from likely
56:45
let alone plausible, that that is what happened at all. And, you know, people have marched through London in the last 12 months
56:56
I think they've got another one planned. Who are celebrating pogroms and racism
57:01
and calling for people to be treated in an appalling fashion? So, what do we need to know
57:07
before we can say, with any confidence, that these marches are a problem
57:18
Nothing for many people in my perspective. We don't need to know anything
57:23
Or we need to see some pictures on social media that have been disseminated incredibly widely
57:29
and that represent a proportion of a crowd that I have absolutely no interest in registering or counting
57:36
Like those hideous people marching around with the paraglider. images on their right side
57:42
If that was commonplace, this is my theory, right? But I'm fairly confident in my theory
57:48
If that was my, if that was a commonplace behaviour, if that was
57:54
widespread behaviour, we would know about it. The journalistic effort and the activist effort put
58:02
into watching these marches is rightly high. And evidence of activity like that, I think would be quickly found and widely disseminated. So how do we know
58:21
How on earth do you arrive at the conclusion that it is a hate march without knowing for a fact
58:25
that a significant number, if not a majority of people on there, are not there because of their
58:32
concerns about Israeli activity in Gaza and beyond, but are there because they have a historical
58:37
hatred of all Jews. It's such an unfortunate descent into the diminution of language that
58:45
we have seen. You're calling someone anti-Semitic for describing events in Gaza as a genocide
58:51
What words are left to describe somebody undertaking targeted attacks on Jewish people
58:57
in Golders Green? What words are left? You call it a hate march because people are expressing
59:03
horror and sadness at the killing of innocents what words are left to describe people who actually
59:10
hate other innocent people you call it a hate march you i think are in danger of doing more
59:17
harm than good and some of the people doing that will be coming from in their own minds a good
59:22
place but you need to know i'll call it a hate march if you can show me that they are massively
59:30
massively undertaken by what I'm going to somewhat inadequately describe as wrong-uns
59:39
As wrong-uns. 14 minutes after 11 is the time. So I think I want to talk to people who've gone on them
59:46
A problem that I have, and I do mean people who have gone on them. Because if I am on a WhatsApp group
59:53
that shares footage of bad people on these marches, that is all I've ever seen
59:59
I'm not on... 99 other WhatsApp groups sharing footage of the other people on these marches who are doing nothing wrong
1:00:06
I am often told, for example, that Jewish people are on these marches
1:00:11
but no one would argue that they represent all Jewish people, or indeed that they represent all the marches
1:00:17
So I just don't know how we are supposed to be honest in our response to calls for these marches to be banned
1:00:26
while, of course, nobody, as far as I'm aware, is meaningfully calling for the serial criminal Stephen Yaxley-Lennon
1:00:33
who organizes marches like it's going out of fashion. Nobody, as far as I'm aware
1:00:41
none of the same people calling for these hate marches, what they call hate marches to be banned
1:00:46
are calling for genuine, I mean, absolutely unapologetic disseminators of hate to have their march banned
1:00:55
I mean, that's mad, right? when you stop to think about it. Unless, of course, there is proof or there is evidence
1:01:00
that the pro-Palestine marches are dominated, I think is the word I would need to use
1:01:09
Tell me that I'm wrong. Tell me that if it's 10 out of 1,000, it's still enough to ban the whole march
1:01:14
I'm interested in that argument. But unless there is really... I mean, it's so unhelpful when people like Suella Braverman
1:01:20
are first out of the blocks. Because I think everybody, decent and sensible
1:01:24
is going to find themselves pushing in the opposite direction. But Suella Braverman is a broken clock
1:01:29
She might be right twice a day. But when she comes out and uses this language
1:01:33
immediately and without pause or reflection, while also flirting with, of course
1:01:38
or not even flirting with, consummating her relationship with a politician who is remembered by his own school contemporaries
1:01:44
as a vile and hideous Hitler-supporting anti-Semite. Things that he denies, although he denies pretty much everything when the moment arrives
1:01:58
So it's unhelpful when people like that use this kind of language
1:02:02
but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's wrong. I just don't know that I've ever been shown anything close to compelling evidence
1:02:12
that these protests are populated by hateful people or by anti-Semites. They're on the march
1:02:20
but there'll be people on the march who are domestic abusers. There'll be people on the march who are
1:02:26
there's probably a couple of murderers on there who've got away with it. I mean, there'll be all sorts of hideous people
1:02:31
in any congregation of human beings but you wouldn't typify all of them
1:02:37
according to the opinions, the views or the activities of some of them
1:02:43
So, I don't know, I could be wrong, I don't think globalise the Intifada
1:02:47
is a hill that is worth dying on for pro-Palestine supporters. I think you should agree that that phrase can be removed
1:02:55
It can be excised from the vocabulary of protest. Because, again, it's the same as using the phrase hate march
1:03:02
You use the phrase globalise the Intifada, which is very easily understood as a call for violence against the Jewish diaspora
1:03:11
It's very easily understood as that. And just because if you say you don't mean that
1:03:16
doesn't change the fact that it's very easily understood as that. And so it becomes something
1:03:22
that you, as someone who wants to express your solidarity with Palestinian people, you can easily
1:03:31
remove that phrase from your vocabulary if you are minded to use it. You can find a phrase or a
1:03:37
slogan that is not easily comprehensible as a call to attack all Jewish people. But I just worry
1:03:44
about, again, this word that runs through all these conversations like finally through a stick
1:03:50
of rock. I worry about conflation. You know? You go on a march and a proportion
1:03:58
of people on it shout globalize the intifada. You wish they wouldn't
1:04:04
but you are now guilty of agreeing with them and you are a hate marcher
1:04:10
So my experience is limited. I generally encounter pro-Palestine marchers only on their way home
1:04:20
So on a few occasions, I have seen what I will describe as little old ladies
1:04:26
and a perfectly nice-looking middle-class residence of Ealing, because the last time I encountered a few, it was at Ealing Broadway Station
1:04:35
and you can tell that they've been because of the badge that they're wearing or the flag that they're carrying, and I've never encountered anything
1:04:41
that would be remotely described as anti-Semitic, but every single one of them has been called a hate marcher
1:04:46
by various members of the political establishment and the British media. Every single one of them has been called a hate marcher
1:04:53
because they have gone on a hate march. How do we know it's a hate march
1:04:58
0345 6060 973 is the number that you need. I'm not upset with Blackpool, Bill
1:05:07
I just thought I'd share it out a bit. and I went to Filey as a child sometimes on my holidays
1:05:11
and I've been using that stick of rock ogy quite a lot lately so I just thought I'd mix it up a bit
1:05:16
But thanks for checking. I mean, there are no calls to ban and march
1:05:21
that is absolutely steeped in hate. And there are calls to ban and march
1:05:27
that I don't think is absolutely steeped in hate. I don't even know how much hate there is contained within its ranks
1:05:33
unless you are selling the notion that criticising Benjamin Netanyahu's regime is tantamount to hating all Jews
1:05:44
In which case, I mean, you probably know this already, you are doing a hell of a lot more harm than good
1:05:52
So how do we know? Talk to people who've been on it. From every angle, from every perspective
1:05:58
but it has to be an experience of the plurality, which means that it can't come exclusively
1:06:03
from your social media activity. You have to have been on the streets, to paraphrase Hamilton, where it happens
1:06:12
20 minutes after 11 is the time. 0345 6060 973 is the number
1:06:18
James O'Brien on LBC. 32 minutes after 11 is the time. Shabana Mahmood so far has stood firm against calls to ban pro-Palestine marches
1:06:29
But, of course, the deeper the perception goes that they are, in fact, hate marches
1:06:35
the more politically difficult that that resolution becomes. And I just wonder whether it should
1:06:42
Is that a direction that we as a country should be travelling in? How do we know whether it's a hate march or not
1:06:48
And when does it become a hate march? How much hatefulness does there have to be in a crowd of a thousand people
1:06:53
before you can comfortably or accurately portray the entire crowd as being hateful
1:07:00
Farrah is in Southfields. Farrah, what would you like to say? Hi, James. Thanks so much for having me on
1:07:04
You're welcome. I have been on over 32 of the national marches for Palestine over the last two and a half years
1:07:12
So I've been around a lot of people. As far as the marches are concerned, you get anywhere between 50 to 100 to 150,000
1:07:22
I was on the one that was there was a million of us actually going down to the US embassy at one point I think it was 2024 So I seen a lot of people Now I have not seen while I there an anti sign
1:07:39
or anything calling for any harm to Jewish people or anything like that. I saw one sign actually a
1:07:49
year ago and there were two girls standing in front of me and just so people don't think it's
1:07:53
hateful Muslims. They were white. They're in their mid to late 20s and they were holding a sign and
1:08:00
it said, from London to Gaza, long live the Intifada. Now at that point, calling for the
1:08:09
Intifada on public streets is illegal. I mean, obviously it's moved on to globalise the Intifada
1:08:14
is also legal. And I actually went straight up to these two girls, these youthful idiots
1:08:18
and I just said, I took the sign off them and they sort of looked at me and I said
1:08:26
one, it's illegal to do that. Two, you've got police looking at you
1:08:31
There are far more useful things to say than that particular phrase
1:08:36
And also, I will say, from the river to the sea, I don't believe it's a genocidal chant
1:08:42
but I don't choose to say it because I have Jewish friends who are scared about that
1:08:47
I mean, you know, there's a whole bunch of us. We're perfectly intelligent
1:08:51
We're only there because... I'll be the judge of that, madam. All right, all right, then, James
1:08:56
Maybe not me, but, you know, there are people who are intelligent
1:09:00
We're there because we want to, you know, stop the cruelty. We don't want to see any more death
1:09:06
And there is also, you know, as we've moved on and we've seen a lot of
1:09:10
attacks on our civil liberties, there is another part of me that turns up to
1:09:16
you know, protest marches, because I'm like, if we stop doing it, they are going to take our rights away
1:09:21
So I'm not just talking about Palestinian people, but if we don't have peace in that area, it directly affects Jewish people as well
1:09:28
And I walk with thousands of Jews, and it is a great place to get a better understanding through going to these marches
1:09:36
I've looked at a particular activist group. It involves Israelis and Palestinians, and it's really open
1:09:43
and I've learned so much, especially about nuanced conversations, about Zionism, that kind of thing
1:09:49
And, I mean, politeness seems like too mild a term to describe decisions
1:09:53
not to use certain phrases because they can be construed as hideous
1:09:59
even if they can also be delivered and uttered by people who have no intention of being hideous
1:10:05
It's just if there's enough room for doubt there, then excise it from your vocabulary as you have chosen to do
1:10:10
Although, you know, there's a version of the phrase River to the Sea in the 1977 founding document, as I'm sure you know, of Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud party
1:10:19
And I don't think that's genocidal either for the avoidance of doubt
1:10:23
How did those young women respond? Well, they were a bit shocked at anybody, Mark
1:10:28
And I'm kind of a chubby Asian lady. My first band was called the Chubby Asian Ladies
1:10:34
And they said, but, you know, we're sticking up for Palestine. And I said, but you're not
1:10:39
What you're doing is attracting all of the wrong attention. And this is all that people will talk about in the media
1:10:45
I mean, I am not going to repeat what I have witnessed from the counter-protest
1:10:50
But let's put it this way. I no longer take my daughters on those marches
1:10:55
Because when we go past the counter-protest, some of the songs that are now being sung and the way that they react to
1:11:03
some of them react to women is... I'm not going to say this on national radio
1:11:11
It doesn't need to be said. But, you know, one thing I will say is that, you know
1:11:15
there's this whole idea that they're all anti-Semitic. If they were, why would you have Jewish people there
1:11:20
Why would you have Holocaust survivors there? And my inbox will, if it hasn't already
1:11:25
soon be pinging with people saying that they represent a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of the Jewish population
1:11:31
of the Jewish community. But, I mean, the other point is that they are there and they are safe
1:11:36
I mean, this is going to sound like a slightly silly question. And you've been on 32 marches and you've encountered two young white British women
1:11:46
carrying a sort of pro-interfader placard. And you have personally confiscated their placard and cautioned them
1:11:53
How would you respond to the suggestion that you haven't been looking hard enough for hate
1:11:58
Well, I'm there to speak up for peace. and actually I take a lot of photographs of all the signs that I see
1:12:07
because I don't take my daughters on this anymore. I want to show them they're very politically active
1:12:13
and, you know, that kind of thing. They're very interested in human rights and the rest of it
1:12:17
So I do take a lot of those. So I am looking at the signs. I'm not just blindly walking on my headphones listening to Taylor Swift
1:12:24
I am actually using my eyes. Yeah, and that's what I wonder
1:12:28
I don't know who else we can turn to, but it's a self-selecting constituency, isn't it
1:12:35
People who have been on the marches report that to describe them as hate marches is ridiculous
1:12:41
People who have not been on the marches describe them as hate marches. And then you find two hideous people
1:12:45
like the ones who had the paraglider images on their backpacks. I think the timing of that was such
1:12:51
I probably need to check, that the ground offensive, the Israeli response, hadn't even begun at that point
1:12:56
So it was a doubly hideous celebration of Hamas' October 7th terror attack
1:13:02
You find those examples and you pin them on people like you, Farrah
1:13:07
Does it rankle at all? I mean, how do you personally, briefly if you will, because the news is next
1:13:12
how do you personally handle the allegation that you are a hate marcher
1:13:17
You may have heard people on this radio station essentially describing you personally
1:13:21
as a hate marcher simply by dint of being there. Well, I'm not
1:13:27
And my question to them would be, what are you doing about making our society a far better place to live in
1:13:34
And what are you doing about bringing a little bit more justice and peace and stability to the world
1:13:38
Because this is the only thing that I can actually contribute towards. And just because I know you've got the news, all I will say is I will be going on that march in two weeks' time
1:13:47
Because Tommy Robinson's also turning up. And I turn up to the anti-fascist ones just as much as I turn up to these ones
1:13:53
It's so important to do so, to show that solidarity. Yeah, and actually I think in some of the far-right protests
1:14:00
we should be urging people not to carry Israeli flags at them
1:14:04
because that, of course, will add to the temperature and create more problems
1:14:10
Thank you, Farrah. That's only one voice and there is room for a lot more. The time now is half past 11
1:14:14
Lottie Morley has your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC. 33 minutes after 11 is the time
1:14:22
I'm going to rattle through some texts and then we'll go to Josh and Lorraine on the phones
1:14:26
There's no point sending me messages, Saj, saying that you'd like to contribute but the lines are busy. You have to keep trying
1:14:31
The lines are constantly refreshing. Morning James writes, Joe in Birmingham, interesting that the mass killings of tens of thousands in Gaza
1:14:38
is not hateful, but protesters protesting against those mass killings are labelled as hateful
1:14:43
Go figure. Remember, anything you hear on the programme, you are not just welcome but indeed urged to challenge
1:14:49
Mark says using the phrase hate march is no different to calling all football fans hooligans
1:14:54
because of the minority of hooligan fans Yeah but how big does the minority have to become before the accusation is close to accurate Mark 52 I don know This is a slippery slope
1:15:07
writes Toby. The opponents of protesters should not get to define what those protesters mean
1:15:11
Look at the bad faith demonization of that term that Farah used from the river to the sea
1:15:17
despite Israelis using it as well. Rebecca says it's not a hate march, it's a march of love and
1:15:23
humanity to which i i feel bound to remind you that it is not love and humanity when there are
1:15:29
two women with paraglider graphics on the back of their um jackets celebrating the the hamaz terror
1:15:35
attack of october the 7th but you can then remind me that the reason why these stories are so
1:15:41
prominent in our minds and our memories is because there have been so few of them um i think kia
1:15:47
starmer described it as venerating the murder of jews which is a really powerful choice of word
1:15:53
people wearing pictures of paragliders you are venerating the murder of Jews
1:15:58
and he goes further if you are marching with people wearing pictures of paragliders
1:16:03
without calling it out you are venerating the murder of Jews and Farrah our first caller
1:16:09
taking issue with people marching with a placard that she found to be dangerous and ridiculous
1:16:16
a few more texts I'll read this one out because I often read out
1:16:22
the ones accusing me of all manner of hideous offences, but this is equally ridiculous
1:16:28
accusing me of not being sufficiently critical of the Israeli regime. Or is it
1:16:33
I mean, it's conflation, actually, Charlotte, I think. Is it stop placing it all on Netanyahu
1:16:38
People have voted for him for years. I just share that simply to highlight the plurality
1:16:47
or no, the diversity of criticism that I receive. Calling them hate marches is like saying
1:16:51
that everyone who voted Brexit was a racist? Not quite. I mean, it's not quite the same
1:16:56
but I can see a degree of your grievance. Of course, everybody who is racist loved Brexit
1:17:02
but that doesn't mean everyone who thought Brexit was going to be a good idea was definitely racist
1:17:08
And keep them coming. 11.36 is the time. Josh is in Chiswick
1:17:13
Josh, what would you like to say? Hi there, James. Thanks for having me on. You're very welcome. I didn't go on as many marches as Farrah
1:17:18
so I can't sort of speak with the sort of authority that she did
1:17:23
I went on a few of the early ones, and I didn't see any evidence of anti-Semitism there
1:17:30
That doesn't mean it wasn't there, but I didn't see it. And I can speak from my own experiences as to why I attended
1:17:36
Before I do that, though, I want to say that my heart goes out to the Jewish community in North London
1:17:42
and in Manchester and all across the country, and around the world, indeed, actually
1:17:47
but I think I went there because I don't like innocent people being killed
1:17:54
Yes. Right? Didn't like it on October the 7th and haven't liked it subsequently
1:17:59
I'm the same as you, I think. Yeah, and without wanting to, you know, some of my best friends are black defense
1:18:03
On October the 7th, I called friends in Tel Aviv to check that they were okay. Right
1:18:07
I mean, the least I could do, but this is, I'm just trying to say that I, you know, I do know Jewish people
1:18:12
and I think it's racist to assume that because you are a certain religion or ethnicity
1:18:16
you all think the same way. I have other Jewish friends here. It's Jewish Israeli friends indeed
1:18:21
who are utterly opposed to Netanyahu who are ironically big supporters of the Green Party in the UK
1:18:29
So I think, you know, I'm here because I hate seeing innocent people dying
1:18:34
That's why I marched. I'm against obviously innocent people dying or being attacked on the streets of the UK
1:18:40
And, you know, I also went on marches against the Iranian regime, right
1:18:44
And, you know, you can say, oh, well, you obviously love protests
1:18:48
or you're being inconsistent, or whatever. I don't think you're being inconsistent at all
1:18:53
I think you're the most consistent contributor to the discourse by being..
1:18:58
I mean, I've always said, since the October 7th terror attack, I'm not going to feel more heartbreak or outrage
1:19:04
about the death of an innocent based upon an accident of their birth
1:19:11
They are equally hateful. that the death of an innocent is an equally hateful act
1:19:16
The Iranian regime is hideous. The idea that you can somehow oppose Donald Trump's illegal war
1:19:22
or Netanyahu's activities, the idea that it makes you an admirer or a fan of the Iranian regime
1:19:26
is a position, I mean, so stupid that I don't think light can pass through it
1:19:31
So you're doing the right thing, aren't you? But it's rare. It's odd that you think you do look odd
1:19:36
for doing something that's the opposite of odd. Well, I mean, I look odd generally, James
1:19:40
That's you and me both, mate. But I mean, I think, you know, and the Iranian one was interesting because there were protests outside the embassy, which I did attend
1:19:48
But then there were protests outside the American embassy encouraging them to attack Iran, which I didn't attend because I thought it would end badly
1:19:56
And I think I may have been proved right on that. But yeah, I just think, you know, it's about in groups and out groups and it's about power dynamics
1:20:05
Right. The Jewish community in the UK is a tiny, you know, 350,000 people
1:20:11
across the country I've heard, you know, they are a, I don't want to patronise them, but, you know
1:20:18
in numbers they are a vulnerable community, right? Yes, clearly. So when they are being
1:20:23
persecuted and attacked, of course, every right-thinking person and every, you know
1:20:29
humane person should be utterly appalled against that and stand up against racism and anti-Semitism
1:20:34
Do you know what you're describing? It's something that I haven't zoned back on for a while
1:20:39
you're not allowed to not have a side do you see what I mean
1:20:45
and I think, I don't know who is responsible for this, but the discourse has led
1:20:49
us to a place where you're not allowed to not have a side, if you're marching in solidarity
1:20:52
with Palestinian people, you must hate Jews that's just obscene and ridiculous, but you know, and if you are against the
1:21:04
Israeli regime, you can't be against the Iranian regime as well. Of course you can
1:21:09
It's as if you're not allowed to have nuance. It's sort of the fetishisation almost of footballification
1:21:16
Well, it's footballification. It's the siloisation and the matemisation of social media as well
1:21:21
That doesn't help. And mainstream media, mate. Let's not forget, there's loads of people using the phrase
1:21:26
hate march to describe something they've never been there. Yes, exactly. And I just think it's a very..
1:21:32
It's very difficult to just say... Yeah, you know, you can say, you know, grow your hair and be a hippie and sit in a field or whatever
1:21:39
But, you know, wanting peace and wanting people not to be killed or maimed could be a universal desire, I think
1:21:48
And, you know, the argument... But the king really sounds a bit like King Charles, Josh. That's something nobody's ever said to you before
1:21:53
Definitely not. That was, you know, that was the lovely nuance or the lovely subtext of the speech that he gave to Congress the other day
1:22:01
I'm going to read a message from Robin. and I don't know which one of us it's aimed at, but I suspect there's only one of us
1:22:06
that he has a physical image of in his mind as he writes it. You don't look odd, he writes
1:22:10
I think you look welcoming and cuddly. Oh. So we'll both take that, shall we
1:22:15
Well, I'll take that. Yeah, I'll take that into the bank holiday weekend, James. It's a lovely compliment. Thank you very much
1:22:19
Well, and have a great one. Everybody, actually. 11.41 is the time
1:22:23
Clive is in St. Albans. Clive what would you like to say I been on several of these marches I not a Jew or a Muslim I a Christian myself I been a Christian for many years
1:22:36
And the thing that drives me to go on these marches is because of my Christian belief
1:22:40
seeing people dying on TV and seeing people dying in such utterly miserable circumstances
1:22:47
it's really offensive. And I'm looking for an outlay to be able to go along and say
1:22:52
look, this is not something that we approve of, this is not something I want to happen
1:22:57
And if that moves the dial even by a millimetre, then it's worth me sacrificing a Saturday to go along to these marches
1:23:03
Yes. I mean, even if it doesn't move the dial a millimetre
1:23:07
it's worth trying. Absolutely. So you are a hate marcher. You realise that, in the eyes of many commentators and politicians
1:23:17
And they're completely entitled to use whatever words they want, freedom of speech
1:23:21
I know in my heart I'm a Christian, and I know that when I go on a Sunday morning to church
1:23:28
and I speak to the other members of the congregation, there's a lot of older people there who aren't able to go along
1:23:33
because they don't have the mobility. And they congratulate me on going to the march
1:23:39
and they say to me, you're going on that march on our behalf because we can't go ourselves
1:23:45
And these people, if you saw them, They're kind of very bastions of Britain
1:23:52
They are white Anglo-Saxon. They are Christian. They have love in their hearts
1:24:00
What they want to see is people being able to live, being able to look after their families
1:24:06
being able to grow, being able to live side by side. I go along because I have love
1:24:13
That has nothing to do with hate. It has everything to do with compassion
1:24:17
But you, I mean, you will have encountered some hate or some hateful behaviour while you've been on these marches or not
1:24:26
I have. It's very, very rare. I think I've seen it twice, maybe three times
1:24:31
I've been on lots of these marches. And every time I've tried to go over and talk to these people, someone else has got there first
1:24:39
Someone else has said that thing that you're chanting, no, that's not what the march is about
1:24:43
or someone has pointed to the sign and said, hold on, that sign could be read in this way
1:24:48
I don't think you should have that sign then. And that is essentially, this is why yesterday's show was slightly dispiriting
1:24:55
when we struggled to come up with really meaningful things that would improve the safety of British Jews at the moment
1:25:01
really meaningful things. And it veered from the unsatisfactory to the frankly ridiculous
1:25:06
with the bloke calling for Britain to become more like Saudi Arabia
1:25:10
where public worship of anything is not allowed, except Islam. So that's one of the things that is being called for
1:25:20
and the evidence, anecdotal, of course, I don't have to be acknowledged
1:25:25
is that that's already happening. The sort of self-regulation, if you like, of these marches
1:25:30
is already happening. And when you get a photograph of those placards
1:25:36
and we react to it, we are repulsed by it, understandably, What we don't know is whether or not somebody did actually
1:25:44
somebody like you or like Farrah or like lots of other people getting in touch with me have actually tried to reason with the person waving it, the person chanting it
1:25:53
The vast majority of people there have come there for good conscientious reasons
1:25:59
And if that's not why you're there and you demonstrate that, people will speak to you
1:26:05
People will say, hold on, I don't want to be associated with this
1:26:09
or do you realize the thing that you're saying is wrong? And that is a beautiful thing because that's the thing that we need
1:26:16
That's discourse. That's people talking to somebody. That's somebody saying hating this other group doesn't help the group that you care about
1:26:24
What we want is more love. What we need is more discussion amongst people
1:26:30
Planning particular phrases doesn't help. What does help is having a discussion and showing somebody
1:26:37
this is what using that phrase causes to the other person, being able to empathize with them
1:26:42
seeing somebody else being scared or being frightened or somebody at the edge of tears
1:26:48
And if somebody chooses not to use that phrase because they have empathy
1:26:53
that is far more powerful than any sort of bad. Yes, and in my own small way
1:26:59
I tried to do that earlier with reference to the globalize the intifada phrase
1:27:02
which I think people should not use for the very simple reason that it causes grave and genuine upset to many people
1:27:10
And you can make other points of solidarity and critique without doing the upsetting bit, without doing that upsetting bit
1:27:17
Thank you. Your fellow congregants are correct. You are a great ambassador for your faith, Clive
1:27:26
It's been a pleasure listening to you. It is 1146. And, of course, Josh in Chizik pointing out
1:27:31
he also marches against the Iranian regime, which in many ways is a uniquely powerful image as well
1:27:40
because it is against that sort of universal revulsion of the slaughter of innocents
1:27:48
I remember expressing that and wondering how long or how far things were going to go before you began to feel
1:27:55
that the response to the hideousness of October the 7th was approaching hideousness itself
1:28:01
and I remember wishing with you that we never got to that point
1:28:05
and some of you were telling me at the time that we already had but I don't think anybody tells me now that we haven't
1:28:12
It's 11.47. James O'Brien on LBC. 10 to 12 is the time
1:28:18
When is a hate march? Not a hate march. And equally important question, when is a hate march a hate march
1:28:23
And how can a march where a man who was filmed giving what was, to all intents and purposes, a stone-cold Nazi salute, be cheered at a march that is not a hate march, whereas a march containing all of the people contributing to our programme today have been labelled as hate marchers
1:28:45
And that is Trumpian almost, isn't it? In its inversion of the facts
1:28:50
When is a hate march not a hate march? When the Nazi saluter is addressing the crowd
1:28:55
When is a hate march a hate march? When Christians are showing solidarity with people being slaughtered
1:29:06
You march against Hamas. Does that become a hate march? Because you're sort of expressing, I don't know
1:29:11
It's just such a strange phraseology that took hold so early, and I don't quite understand why it was allowed to
1:29:19
and why so many people were so keen to join in without going to check for themselves
1:29:23
And if you can't check for yourself, or if you haven't checked for yourself, then you can ask people who have
1:29:29
You can ask people who have. 1151 is the time. Let's cross now live to Westminster Magistrates Court
1:29:37
where Fraser Knight has been in attendance as the man charged with those Golders Green attacks
1:29:43
appeared in court. Fraser, what can you tell us? Well, James, Esa Suleiman, who's 45 years old
1:29:50
and has been in police custody since the attack on Wednesday morning
1:29:54
appeared here in courtroom number one of Westminster Magistrates Court. He walked into the dog's..
1:29:59
wearing a grey cell-issued track suit. He was flanked by two custody officers and sat down
1:30:07
and very quickly tightly folded his arms. Now, he's quite a medium build guy. He has almost like
1:30:15
a buzz cut and where I was sitting in the courtroom, it looked like he had a mark on the right hand
1:30:21
side of his face. It may have been a tattoo though and he was here charged with three counts of
1:30:28
attempted murder and one count of possessing a knife. Now, two of the attempted murders relate
1:30:35
to the two Jewish men who we saw stabbed on Wednesday morning in Golders Green. The court
1:30:40
heard some more details about their injuries. First of all, 34-year-old Shlomi Rand, who we're
1:30:47
told this morning has been released from hospital. The court heard he had a stab wound to the chest
1:30:53
He suffered a collapsed lung that thankfully is now out of hospital
1:30:57
And then 76-year-old Moshi Shine, who was standing by a bus stop when he was attacked
1:31:02
the court heard he has a stab wound to the neck. Now, thankfully, his injuries are not life-threatening
1:31:08
He is still in hospital, but he's in a stable condition. And then, James, the third count of attempted murder relates to another incident
1:31:15
that happened just two hours before the attack in Goldish Green. This one was in south-east London, in the borough of Southwark
1:31:24
So, S.S. Zuliman, first appearance, wasn't asked to enter any pleas at this stage
1:31:30
He only spoke to tell the court his name and his date of birth
1:31:34
But the judge here remanded him into custody and told him his case now will go to the Old Bailey
1:31:39
where he's expected to appear on the 15th of May. Do we know any more about the first victim
1:31:45
The one in, I think it was Southwark, was it, in south-east London? there's not been a huge amount of details that have been released publicly yet on that case
1:31:54
james but we do know it was in southwark and it happened of course just a few hours before the
1:31:59
attack as this case though progresses to the crime court to the old bailey there will be more details
1:32:06
that come out through that process fraser knight many thanks indeed live as i said from westminster
1:32:12
magistrate's court where the man charged with the Golders Green attacks has been appearing
1:32:21
While we have been on air, you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC, where we spent a day
1:32:28
two hours in fact yesterday, wondering what the more meaningful measures to protect British Jews
1:32:35
would actually look like and involve. And it was not an entirely satisfactory experience, was it
1:32:41
Especially if you're Jewish. It just proved rather difficult to put any flesh upon the bones of something must be done
1:32:52
It's why I think attacking the politicians in charge, particularly when it's undertaken by politicians not in charge, is so ugly
1:33:02
Utterly predictable, of course. Nigel Farage welcomed onto the stage or certainly his party welcomed onto the stage
1:33:10
for a hero's welcome a woman who had been publicly calling for a pogrom
1:33:14
and was correctly jailed as a response so that the idea that he has concerns about public safety
1:33:19
is questionable at the very least but unless you've got really clear ideas
1:33:25
about what could be done better it's really unhelpful to just shout
1:33:29
something must be done and that might be why ban the marches has become a bit of a mantra
1:33:37
But why? Because they're hate marches. Okay, fine, ban them then. But what if they're not
1:33:44
Or how many incidents of hatefulness would we need to accrue before we could comfortably and confidently conclude
1:33:51
that the whole thing should be called off? Because I don't remember many calls
1:33:56
for the march where a Nazi-saluting billionaire was cheered to the rafters
1:34:02
receiving similar levels of scrutiny or criticism from these ones, which in our experience are populated by rather nice-sounding people
1:34:10
And you have to presume they are the massive majority. They might not be, but you are free to ring me and tell me
1:34:16
that you have seen much worse things than have so far been described
1:34:23
Lorraine is in Rygate. Lorraine, what would you like to say? Hi, good morning, James
1:34:27
Hello, Lorraine. Hi. Yes, I was on a protest march last autumn, protesting against Israel's decimation of Gaza
1:34:40
The march itself was peaceful. I didn't see one example of hatred except from the counter march
1:34:50
And that was shocking for me. I didn't expect that. The second woman caller to tell me that
1:34:56
Yeah, the police were keeping the protesters back and they were carrying Israeli flags
1:35:05
Okay, this is your testimony. Yes, it is. And they were shouting at us, they were screaming at us
1:35:12
There were also flags, you know, from the far right, you know, the weaponized Union Jack, you know
1:35:22
but our march went off peacefully you know the people there couldn't have been nicer James
1:35:30
I didn't see one evidence of hatred I didn't see anything like that it was all that was in
1:35:39
our minds was to stop the massacre of the children the women the men in Gaza to stop it
1:35:47
you know so when they're talking about hate marches i just you know i can i was moved to
1:35:55
call you james the way i was moved to go on that march i know that you know i'm just one person
1:36:03
who can't perhaps do anything but you know but as a group we can at least show that we're concerned
1:36:12
and that we have love in our hearts, not hatred. Why do you think people are calling you a hate marcher
1:36:20
Because I think there's a political agenda here, James. I think that the government hasn't called out..
1:36:29
The government hasn't banned the marches or joined in that description. The government hasn't been involved in that..
1:36:39
Well, I don't know. I probably should have let you finish speaking before I jumped in, Lorraine, but please, Sashan, Jay
1:36:44
No, I think the government, though, has, you know, it hasn't really
1:36:51
It doesn't say, you know, that it doesn't call out Israel. It's calling out a group of perhaps 200,000 people marching through London
1:37:02
In fact, I noticed that the press itself, the papers, on the particular march that I was on
1:37:09
There was perhaps a paragraph and they said there were 20,000 marches
1:37:16
We knew there were at least 200,000 that day. Well, I mean, there's always..
1:37:21
Whoever is marching there always a little bit of dispute over the overall numbers I agree But it doesn affect the central thrust of all the points that you made And the experiences that you had and oddly I can hear in your voice actually that process of being moved to talk and indeed to act
1:37:39
I'm a bit late for the news, but I want to squeeze in at least one more call if I can. Thank you, Lorraine. Have a lovely bank holiday
1:37:44
James is in Blackheath. James, what made you pick up the phone? James, I wanted to tell you my experience
1:37:50
I've been on about 20 or so marches. I photograph the marches
1:37:55
Okay. Professionally or just for fun? I do it for myself. I do it for myself
1:38:00
I've never been paid for a photograph of the marches, but I am a professional photographer
1:38:04
I do this for myself. All right. A couple of years ago
1:38:08
the big one that one of your other callers talked about earlier on
1:38:12
where we marched from Park Lane to the American Embassy. So, it's a bit of a stroll
1:38:19
I started at the back of the march and I zigzagged through the march
1:38:25
trying to get as many faces as I can when I got to
1:38:29
the American Embassy people were still coming thick and fast so I thought, I'm done here
1:38:36
so I walked all the way back to the start of the march and life at that point is a bit like
1:38:41
if you can imagine Wembley's kicking out and you think you've left your phone in your seat
1:38:46
so you're trying to get back in so I'm against the crowd and the bit between St. James's Park and Victoria
1:38:55
there's a bit of a bottleneck, so all hardly moving. Most of the march was already at the American Embassy by now
1:39:05
So it was huge. They cited a million people. Who knows if it was a million people or not
1:39:11
It felt like a million people. It was huge. And what were the worst things you saw
1:39:15
Because I'm just conscious of the time, even by my standards, I don't want to completely destroy the schedule
1:39:20
What were the worst things you saw? I just want to get to the crux of my story
1:39:24
As I was walking against the crowd, everybody was apologising to me
1:39:29
Oh, okay. I just thought, this is the most British thing I've ever been involved in
1:39:34
I've lived in London most of my life, you know? For the jostling. For the jostling
1:39:39
Apologies for the jostling. I've never seen any anti-Semitism. I've photographed, made a point of photographing
1:39:45
so many Jewish people. they just would not return. Not return. You know, I'm not saying people that go
1:39:53
oh, I think they might be Jewish. She looks a little bit Jewish. People carry placards in Jewish, not in my name
1:39:59
In Hebrew. The son of a Holocaust survivor. You know, I'm disgusted by this
1:40:05
I'm no hate marcher. People, they would not return, you know? I do
1:40:10
Well, I think so. And it's interesting, because, I mean, you're probably going to have seen more
1:40:14
than anybody else on the marches by dint of what you're doing when you're in attendance
1:40:19
A couple of texts to end with. Thank you, James. I am Jewish, writes Michael, and I abhor some of the actions of the Israeli government
1:40:25
including the expansion of the settlements. I do not want the marches to be banned. What is confusing sometimes
1:40:30
is why there are not similar marches in respect of other conflicts. There are many
1:40:34
The fact that a few may also turn up at a protest against the Iranian regime doesn't address this
1:40:39
This adds to a feeling of isolation of Jews in Britain, something we may talk about on another day
1:40:45
And this from Deb, not sure what march your now caller has been on
1:40:49
The hatred I've seen is off the scale. Well, it's hard to identify which caller you're talking about, Deb
1:40:54
because they've all described the precise opposite of what you've seen. Give us a ring next time, and we'll get your experiences on the show as well
1:41:04
James O'Brien on LBC. Six minutes after 12 is the time you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:41:10
This is a bit odd. There's probably a word for this. but the topic that we're going to talk about next
1:41:16
as a piece of radio I think will do what the topic does
1:41:25
in real life does that make sense Keith? no, should I try again
1:41:31
alright, so we're going to talk about something that people do and the feelings that it engenders
1:41:37
and I think that this bit of radio will engender similar feelings
1:41:42
to the practice that we're going to talk about. Is that better
1:41:47
Are you with me now? Yeah? All right. So, here's a first
1:41:55
Bird watching. Okay? You may be aware that I have become a bit of a twitcher in recent years
1:42:02
I haven't given a great deal of thought to why. It began, actually, as a..
1:42:09
Possibly it began. And it couldn't have... No, it's chicken and egg
1:42:14
Sorry. It's birds, yeah. I must have been interested before I did it
1:42:21
but a million years ago, and I think even before we started doing all the online stuff
1:42:25
and going viral, so I'm not even sure that a record of this would exist. But a million years ago
1:42:30
I went out on Wormwood Scrubs here in London with a cool guy, a really cool guy called David Lindo, I think
1:42:37
but his professional title was the Urban Birder. and I can't remember why I had a producer at the time
1:42:42
who thought that we should just be providing a bit more light and shade on the programme. I was hideously opposed to this prospect
1:42:48
because it meant me carrying on working long after the programme had finished. So I had to go out with a flipping recorder and a microphone
1:42:55
like a proper journalist and go out and do things and talk to people. We went to the control room of London Underground
1:43:02
That was pretty cool actually. We went to the control room of London Underground. Is that out by Hangar Laneway
1:43:08
I can't remember. But we did a few things. We went to Battersea Power Station
1:43:11
while it was still a building site. That was actually, maybe that producer
1:43:15
was onto something, going out. And we went birdwatching with the urban birder
1:43:23
And I think it was a kestrel. So I've been on Wormwood Scrubs a few times over the years
1:43:28
I used to live in that neck of the woods. I had a mate, we used to take his boy to fly his kite there
1:43:33
and I'd never really communed with nature in London apart from urban foxes, I suppose
1:43:41
And so I'm sort of saying, what birdwatching do you do when you're in London? What birdwatching do you do
1:43:46
And he just sort of takes me out, shows me some stuff
1:43:51
and then he literally shows me, would it be a kestrel? It was probably, would it be a kestrel in central London
1:43:57
He shows me a kestrel. He says, oh, look at that, look at that. I get my binoculars and I look at that
1:44:03
And it just flipping swoops out of the sky, as you would expect from a bird
1:44:08
and grabs a rodent from the middle of the grassland on Wormwood Scrubs, the scrubs
1:44:13
and then carries on in a beautiful arc onto a post in the middle of the grass
1:44:21
where it sits and it sort of devours the... A vole, would it be? I don't know
1:44:27
I've never known. It was a moment of transcendental pleasure for me
1:44:31
I mean, if you're a vegetarian, I don't know, do you get upset by nature being read in tooth and claw
1:44:38
But I loved it. I began at that moment to be a little bit more interested in bird watching
1:44:49
I'll tell you why we're talking about it, in case you think I've gone completely bonkers. About three quarters of a million Gen Zedders that 16 to 29 year olds in Britain regularly enjoy watching birds Um can stop your Sid James cackling and your carry film references please you know what I talking about matron
1:45:07
It's a tenfold increase since 2018. This is research published by the RSPB, and I mean, that's extraordinary
1:45:15
I wonder if there's anything else wholesome and healthy that has seen a tenfold increase
1:45:20
That's over a thousand percent, Keith. Over a thousand percent increase over a ten-year period
1:45:29
I can't think of anything else that is wholesome and healthy that has chalked up those sort of numbers
1:45:34
and I want to do the why of it. I want to do the why and the what of it
1:45:39
Because I can't tell you what it is that I love. So I have been..
1:45:43
And also, I'll tell you something else weird. I don't just quite like birdwire
1:45:47
I saw some sea eagles while I was on holiday a couple of weeks ago. I was in the West Highlands, and I think there's only..
1:45:56
I saw golden eagles and sea eagles. And it's just... I can't put into words what pleasure I derived from it
1:46:05
Not everybody in our party derived the same levels of pleasure as I did
1:46:10
In fact, I'm not sure anybody did, to be honest with you, but everybody was at least interested
1:46:14
There was a degree of curiosity, excitement. But I was transported. there's something about the swoop of a sea eagle and there was a fledgling there as well the chick
1:46:23
that they had last year has kind of grown up a bit and they were still moving around the island
1:46:27
as a threesome and it meant because they nest there and it's a relatively small island it meant
1:46:34
that you could um almost guarantee i don't think it would be possible to visit the island we were
1:46:39
staying on without seeing the sea eagles it's just i think they told me there's only 60 nesting pairs
1:46:44
in the UK or something like that. Why? They were quite a long way away
1:46:49
It's not like you're right up close to them. It's not like they've landed in your garden and you can have a proper butcher's
1:46:53
You can have a... So why is it so exciting? And then I kind of remembered that
1:47:03
my introduction to it recently was via an app called Chirp-O-Matic, which involves hearing birdsong
1:47:10
and recording it and then running it through the app to find out what bird you've seen
1:47:17
And so that means that I've got a collection in front of me now of birds that in some cases I haven't even seen
1:47:25
I've just heard them and recorded it and I've got a kick out of that as well
1:47:30
I never would have done this as a topic because it's too personal and a bit strange
1:47:35
if I hadn't seen the news today that nearly a million generation
1:47:39
we're always talking about this lot being in trouble and this lot being in, you know
1:47:44
So it's lovely to think of this. I'll give you my latest. Do you want to hear my latest, Keith
1:47:48
I'll give you the latest sort of seven or eight on mine. I've got a grey heron, a blue tit, a black bird
1:47:56
a songfrush, a chaffinch, a dunnock, a great tit and a goldfinch
1:48:00
And I got the goldfinch deliberately. I changed the bird feed in my garden in order to tempt goldfinch
1:48:06
I got them. I could sit and watch them for hours. Do you know what the collective noun is for goldfinch
1:48:12
it's not goldfinches, Keith. It's not flock or bunch. It's a charm
1:48:18
It's a charm of goldfinch. A charm of goldfinch. And I now have charm of you
1:48:22
And you have to get, they're pretty fickle, you know, goldfinch. Gold fickle, I call them
1:48:26
And if you don't keep your supplies replenished, they'll probably move on and find something else
1:48:33
And also, stop feeding the birds around this time of year. Because A, they don't need it
1:48:37
And B, the feeders can become incubators for disease, I was reading in The Guardian a couple of weeks ago
1:48:43
So, I've kind of got three questions that I want you to help me with
1:48:51
The first is, I want you to tell a sceptic, I did this with Trainspotting, didn't I, a few months ago
1:49:01
Because I went Trainspotting. Oh, man. Who is presenting this programme and what happened to James O'Brien
1:49:07
I went Trainspotting. I remember sitting at a station in Ealing where they've got this train that has been re-engineered as an electric train
1:49:16
I think it's the most effective or the most efficient electric train in the world
1:49:20
and it just runs on a little branch line in Ealing. I think it's only on Saturdays
1:49:24
And I read about it in someone's blog and I just thought, well, I've got nothing on today
1:49:29
I'll just hop on a bus. It's only ten minutes away. I'll go and have a look. And the enthusiasm of the train spotters was so infectious
1:49:35
that it became... I wasn't, I mean, I was intrigued and curious about the train
1:49:39
but I didn't get transported by the train. I got transported by the enthusiasm and the excitement
1:49:45
of the people being transported by the train. Let me rephrase that. I got transported by the train
1:49:49
I mean, I got on it and I went somewhere and came back again, but I didn't have the transcendental experience
1:49:54
that I had when I was looking at the sea eagles. I didn't feel like I do in a good yoga session
1:49:58
or, you know, if you're at a concert and suddenly time stops and you're in a magical place, like a liminal emotional space
1:50:06
So I was transported emotionally by the reactions of the other people watching the trains
1:50:13
Particularly the young lads who I think, well, some of them were wearing the sunflower badges to denote autism or other things
1:50:25
And they seemed, I mean, almost beyond excited. It was obviously the highlight of their month, let alone their day
1:50:32
And it was impossible to sit there and not be affected by it. but I don't really get trainspotting
1:50:38
I just want to make, that's the point that I'm making, because I know what a sceptic is
1:50:43
I need to say something now, and I need you to pay attention. Don't ring me about trainspotting, all right
1:50:48
We'll do that another day. We're not doing it today. Do not ring me, text me, message
1:50:51
do not give me any trainspotting content, please. Because what I want from you at 12.16
1:50:59
is an attempt to describe to a sceptic the joy of bird watching
1:51:05
the younger you are I don't want to say the younger the better but obviously the topic we're discussing is specific
1:51:11
to generation Zedders 16 to 29 year olds if you are as surprised as I am
1:51:16
to find yourself loving the ornithology and crucially you are young
1:51:25
you are in that age group then I want you to have a crack at explaining to a sceptic
1:51:29
what the pleasure is what the joy is 03456060973. The second thing I want you to do
1:51:37
well, actually, this sounds a bit silly, but I really mean it. So explain to a sceptic the joy of ornithology
1:51:43
who currently listening to this programme has seen the rarest bird. So if you think you might genuinely
1:51:53
have seen the rarest bird, you are required to ring in on 03456060973
1:52:01
and I can't remember what the third question is, but it'll be something along the lines of
1:52:08
how did you get into it? I mean, it's free. It's easy
1:52:13
It's universal. Pretty much anybody can do it. I mean, it's hardly surprising
1:52:18
Oh, yeah. The third question is, why do you think so many young people are getting into it? We might answer that with the first question
1:52:23
about what the appeal is. So what is the appeal Explain to a sceptic why ornithology is wonderful Why are all the young people doing it
1:52:35
Easy for you to answer if you are a young person. And finally, who, listening to this programme at this moment
1:52:42
has actually seen the rarest bird? And I will use Google to adjudicate
1:52:46
on how rare the bird you've seen actually is. And I've got two categories for this
1:52:51
No-one's going to ring me, are they, on this? But I've got two categories anyway. One is UK and one is overseas
1:52:57
So if you're a hardcore Twitcher and you've travelled somewhere else in the world to do it
1:53:02
then you have your own category. So we've got international and domestic
1:53:06
Rarist in this country, I wouldn't even know where to start, but also rarest internationally
1:53:10
So 0345 6060 973. And when I said train spotter, I meant railway enthusiasts
1:53:18
My apologies. I meant railway enthusiasts. So what is the appeal of bird spotting
1:53:24
bird watching, even. Why are all the kids doing it? And who has seen the rarest bird
1:53:31
Domestic and international division. It's 12.19, it's Friday, it's a long weekend
1:53:36
Let's have a nice time together until the end of the show. James O'Brien on LBC
1:53:42
20 minutes after 12, do you know? I'm going to share that one, all right
1:53:47
Do you know what Keith just said? Can you guess what Keith just said? So I'm looking at a full switchboard
1:53:52
I don't know, it might be really boring. We'll find out by the end of the hour. Keith just said, this one's really taken off
1:54:00
This is what I have to work with on a daily basis, actually
1:54:06
And then Rebecca, the assistant producer of this programme, she just said, the calls are really flying in
1:54:13
This one's really taken off and the calls are really flying in. Don't you dare. How dare
1:54:18
You claim you were applauding Rebecca, but you were really applauding yourself
1:54:23
Eleanor, are you not joining in with this? This work... I think this is called workplace banter
1:54:31
You're not joining... You've got nothing to add to this? The calls are really flying in
1:54:35
This one's really taken off. I'm also not convinced that they're not all laughing at me
1:54:40
for sharing my slightly pedestrian enthusiasm, but I make no apology for it
1:54:46
Simon is in Icaria. Is it Calimera, Calispera? Hierate, Simon. Dicanis. There we go
1:54:56
Yeah, let's see. Why did you pick up the phone? I'll do that bit in English
1:55:01
I picked, I picked, I'm going to speak English, James. We've spoken before
1:55:05
I know we have. I picked up the phone because I love bird watching
1:55:12
And living here, I have seen a very, very rare bird, which you need to look up
1:55:21
it's called a golden oriel O-R-I-O-R-I-E-N I don't have to look it up
1:55:26
the Eurasian golden oriel I think you're talking about, the bright yellow one with the black wings
1:55:31
bright yellow and that was in that was in Icaria yeah it was in Icaria
1:55:38
twice I've seen them how many? do they flock? do they flock or do you see them individually
1:55:46
no you see them on their own but it's just incredible You know, I spent, a few years ago, I spent 400 quid on a pair of binoculars
1:56:00
You know. Because you're taking it seriously. I'm just having a bit of a rethink, Simon
1:56:04
I don't know how we're going to... Go on. I don't know how I'm going to judge this
1:56:08
I mean, a golden Oriole is obviously, a Eurasian golden Oriole, to be correct, is obviously quite rare
1:56:15
But what if the next... It is. Yeah, I know it is. And I've got no reason to doubt you. You're a stand-up guy
1:56:19
What's the rarest bird that you've ever seen, Jack? I've seen very little by way of rare birds, as it goes
1:56:26
You need to get out, mate. No, I know. Well, I'm in Greece again in the summer
1:56:29
so I'll be keeping an eye out for... Well, I've seen a toucan, but they're not rare where I saw them
1:56:36
I saw them in... I think I was in Guatemala or somewhere like... You know, like the Guinness
1:56:39
like a walking Guinness advert. Like, for example, for example, right? Let me tell you, right
1:56:46
for years I used to go to the Isles of Scilly to camp, right
1:56:53
Which is, if you've ever been there, I'd recommend it. Absolutely beautiful place
1:56:58
And I saw a bird there called a Red Start which are
1:57:04
very rare. So you've gone domestic and international? I've gone domestic and international
1:57:11
So you've got, so the opening the batting in the domestic league is the
1:57:15
red start. Start with a T, is it? Yes, start. And in the international leagues
1:57:21
Simon and Icaria currently leading on both divisions is the Eurasian Golden
1:57:24
Oriole. The problem I've got, which I should have identified before I started talking
1:57:29
but that's often the case on this so-called programme, the problem I've got is I don't think there's, is there a ranking
1:57:34
of rareness? Is there like a chart? There is. Have you found it? Why are you nodding
1:57:40
Well, is there? Where is it then? Of course there is. Of course there is, because this is why
1:57:44
people sort of go destroying the countryside, piling over fences and everything else
1:57:50
Yes, but I need to find it before I can decide who wins, don't I? Because you're currently winning, but only because
1:57:56
there's nobody else in either league, so anyone would be winning. You could have been winning with a magpie
1:58:00
mate or a crow. I'll tell you what annoys me, and this is one for the fellow Twitchers
1:58:05
If you're using one of the apps to do it on sound, flipping robins, man. They are everywhere. Every time
1:58:10
you hear, oh, that's a new one. I'll listen to that. It's another robin it's a flipping robin robin robin robin all over the shop right you're on so we've got a red
1:58:17
start and a eurasian golden aureole and because eleanor hasn't joined in with the jokes she can
1:58:22
find a chart of of birds that we put these into and then we get an idea of what is rarest and what
1:58:28
is not rarest speaking of jokes you'll like this simon and he's been in touch he says 400 pounds
1:58:33
for binoculars they must have seen you coming a mile off Bang, holiday
1:58:41
Flo's in Brighton. Flo, what made you pick up the phone? Hi, James
1:58:45
Nice to speak to you. I've always been obsessed with animals and birds
1:58:50
I grew up very near to Richmond Park. Oh, yes. The first place my mum would let me jump on the bus on my own
1:58:54
and I'd spend the whole day sort of drawing, drawing animals and drawing birds
1:58:58
and it just brought me a real sense of peace and I guess connection a little bit
1:59:03
So much so that now as an adult, I mean, I have a master's in animal behaviour, but I'm obsessed with birds
1:59:09
I mean, I love... My favourite thing to do at the weekends is take my dog somewhere kind of on the downs I live in Brighton these days
1:59:15
and get out of the Merlin Bird app and sort of see how many birds and new species
1:59:20
we can collect in certain areas. I think I said to a producer it reminds me a little bit
1:59:23
of modern-day Pokémon Go, but real. Yeah, so that's an interesting element of it
1:59:29
and that ties in with the railway enthusiasts as well, doesn't it? You are collecting. It's like stamp collecting
1:59:34
That's what I do on my app with the bird sounds. But what about when you're in the moment, when you've got a bird in focus
1:59:42
you've got a bird in sight? Describe to a skeptic why that feeling is so special
1:59:47
I think for me, as I'm 32, and you know, we're kind of growing up in a time
1:59:52
when everything feels very hopeless, the planet's dying around us. For me, it gives me an absolute sense of peace and connection
1:59:59
Something called the biophilia hypothesis, which if you're interested in eco-psychology, which I wrote my undergraduate thesis on, is basically to do with the connection with nature
2:00:09
And if you look at our times as species living on the planet, you know
2:00:13
the time that we have spent in an industrial concrete world is minimal compared to the time we've spent with animals
2:00:18
It's deeply ingrained in us to actually get something and get a lift out of being connected with nature
2:00:24
It leads back to first-generation romanticism as well. You know, the things that Shelley and Byron and all of them wrote about
2:00:30
which is the hair standing up on the back of your neck, the transcendental when you're out in the woods
2:00:35
There's something truly magical about it that we don't quite understand. And, you know, and in layman's terms, they're also, they're dinosaurs
2:00:41
so that's really cool to be around and kind of watch their behaviour. I think they're absolutely fascinating
2:00:45
Some more than others. When a heron swoops over you, there's quite a few grey herons near me
2:00:50
but it's like a pterodactyl. It is, but that's a whole idea. Well, I think it might be
2:00:54
I've obviously never encountered a pterodactyl in a while. I think the closest I have is I did some
2:00:59
when I did my master's down in Exeter, I spent some time working in painting zoo, and we would watch a lot of the engagement
2:01:05
between the zookeepers and the cassowaries, which I don't know if you've ever seen a cassowary up front
2:01:09
Yeah, there's a children's programme that's got a cassowary bird in it. They are dinosaurs
2:01:14
They're scary. So you've got the whole, you've got it all covered. You've got the poetry of it covered
2:01:19
but you've also got the kind of collecting nature of it, ticking them off, Pokemon Go element of it covered
2:01:24
and then the transcendental element of it as well. It must be so..
2:01:29
And that's why the young people are doing it. People who are even younger than you are doing it
2:01:32
because it's good for your mental health. And it instills hope. It instills hope and a connection with the planet
2:01:38
as the planet's dying. You know, I've been fortunate to do research all around the world. I've seen some phenomenal species
2:01:45
And I don't know if it's necessarily a particularly rare one, but another one to add to your list
2:01:49
the connection was when I was doing an internship out in Muscat in Oman
2:01:54
I saw an Indian roller bird. Give that a Google. It's one of the most phenomenal birds you'll ever see in your life
2:02:00
Right, that's in the International League. I don't know whether you're going to overtake it
2:02:03
And in first place, it's the Eurasian Golden Oriole, but the Indian roller bird is coming up fast on the outside lane
2:02:08
The Indian roller bird for the win by a nose. What's your entry for the Domestic League
2:02:13
The Domestic League, I was recently walking in a woodland just outside of Lewis, outside of Brighton
2:02:19
called Lofton Woods. It's beautiful. It's an incredible place to walk. and I hit my, I hit about 23 different species of bird
2:02:25
and I managed to hit a short-eared owl. A short-eared owl, lovely
2:02:29
Which I was really delighted at because, you know... When you say, is hit the word that proper twitchers use
2:02:36
On my Merlin app, I didn't hit it, not with a ball. No, I know, I knew that. I just wanted to know if that's the kind of lingo
2:02:39
I should now be adopting as a nascent twitcher. It's when I Shazam it on my bird app, basically. Yeah
2:02:46
Merlinbird ID and I was delighted to hear that. Oh, there's one there. I wonder what that one was just behind you
2:02:50
There is. Or in front of you. Why would it be behind you? Do you know what it is
2:02:54
It looks like possibly a missile crash. Oh, lovely. Yeah, I'm in Queen's Park, so..
2:02:59
Happy days. Yeah, there's a couple around, but yes. This is magical
2:03:03
I'm loving it. Thank you, Flo. Oh, go on. What? No, I was just going to say download Merlin and it'll..
2:03:09
Yeah, well, I've got another one, but everyone keeps telling me to use Merlin as well. I mean, I should experiment
2:03:15
Flo, thank you very much. The jokes are still coming. Timothy says, I've also seen the Guinness bird in the wild, James
2:03:21
See? Toucan play at that game. And David, well played, because I read it twice before I saw the joke here
2:03:28
He says, I like bird watching because it's cheap. Matt Hewitt has your headlines
2:03:37
Anyone seen a lesser white-fronted goose who's going straight to the top of the charts
2:03:41
This isn't much use to me. Eleanor's given me a list of about 1,000 birds
2:03:45
ranked in rareness order, but I can't go through all of them looking for the Red Star, the Short-Eared Owl
2:03:50
the Eurasian Gordon Ariel and the Indian Rollerbird. Can I? What I have got for you, though
2:03:55
and this is almost like birdwatching, I have found one of the stupidest people ever
2:03:59
to get into Idiot's Corner. This is actually spectacular, and that reminded me that I've got a brilliant unhinged headline for you as well
2:04:07
Sometimes I really, really want to share the full name of the person that's WhatsAppped me
2:04:13
because they deserve so much more shame than can be conveyed simply with a first name
2:04:19
But I don't think we're allowed to do that anymore, so I won't. This is from Paul
2:04:26
Ha ha, he writes, chatting birdwatching because the left can't defend what happened this week
2:04:33
Green Party and a terror attack. You must be sweating, writes Paul
2:04:38
I mean, what was it, two hours yesterday on the situation, the hideous
2:04:42
anti-Semitic attacks in Golders Green. An hour this morning on the idiocy of Zach Polanski's
2:04:49
intervention, followed by an hour on the question of hate marches. But yeah, you got me there, Paul
2:04:56
That's me sweating and not talking about stuff. What an absolute prune
2:05:00
you must be. Did you not check? Or listen? Or did you actually not? No
2:05:06
Oh, it's worse than that. You actually listened to it but didn't notice. didn't you? Anyway, don't worry, because you've got a little bit of competition for Clown of the Week
2:05:17
from the author of this week's, or today's at least, Unhinged Headline
2:05:23
Unhinged Headline. I even inflicted on your behalf the misery of reading a bit of this
2:05:31
article in The Telegraph today, because I thought it's going to be tongue-in-cheek, right
2:05:35
and it's not. So the headline is, Miliband hates tumble dryers. He must hate women
2:05:43
No, worse, mothers. Miliband hates tumble dryers. He must hate mothers too
2:05:50
This, with regards to legislation, is always a little bit easier to understand
2:05:55
than these people pretend. Certain types of tumble dryer will no longer be on sale in this country
2:05:59
but you'll still be able to buy tumble dryers. But don't let that stand in the way of an unhinged headline
2:06:04
Miliband hates tumble dryers. He must hate mothers too. I wonder if there were any Unhoosh headlines around
2:06:11
when they brought in the smoking ban. The government hates tobacco. They must hate children too, or something
2:06:18
But anyway, that is an absolute doozy. That is such a peach of a piece
2:06:24
And it is entirely straight-faced. Well, quite po-faced, in fact. And not remotely tongue-in-cheek
2:06:31
Ed Miliband hates women. he must do. Why else would Labour's green dictator go to war
2:06:37
on a mother most prized possession her tumble dryer I leave that one with you Unhinged headline And back to the bird watching Elaine is in Peebles on the Scottish borders
2:06:49
Elaine, question or answer? Oh, hang on, I've just got... I've gone demob happy
2:06:55
Elaine, I've gone demob happy because I'm having a long weekend off and I thought it was mystery hour
2:06:59
because I'm in that and I just said question or answer. I've never done that before
2:07:03
No wonder you got confused. Elaine, what would you like to say? Well, I was a bit confused, actually
2:07:08
You and me both, Elaine. So, actually, I want to just be, I want to be really factual
2:07:13
I've just left people's and I'm actually heading for the Scottish Highlands
2:07:17
And I just heard that you've been up. Are you on the road? You're on the road that I was on
2:07:21
So, I came off because you stirred me so much. So, what I want to say to you is, I actually grew up in East Africa
2:07:28
I was in Uganda for many, many years. And I was very little. So, I've always loved wildlife
2:07:33
but I never quite got into the whole bird thing. And I'll tell you what happened was
2:07:38
I was walking about four years ago down the Tweed, which is well known for its fish
2:07:43
and all of a sudden there was this sort of streak of what was almost turquoise lightning
2:07:48
and I thought, what is that? And being a curious soul, I waded into the water
2:07:52
with my golden retrievers, and sure enough, there did I see two lovely little kingfishers shearing a fish
2:08:00
How absolutely beautiful. And I thought, that has got to be the beginning for me. So I then decided to pick up paints and I started drawing, which I never thought I could do
2:08:09
And from that moment on, I have downloaded apps so I now can listen like you did
2:08:14
So I get this kind of carfophony of different birds. And then I think, well, I want to now try and decipher
2:08:21
So I open up my windows every night and I get the dawn morning and I get the sort of chatter at night
2:08:27
and I'm now told that birds do so many things with their songs and their rhymes
2:08:33
In other words, they stimulate the flowers to open their petals and the world has just opened up for me
2:08:38
Not that it wasn't before, but I can honestly tell you that the whole
2:08:44
just the joy of seeing these little, you know, almost just things of beauty
2:08:51
that are beyond belief and also just their antics and they can be quite comical
2:08:55
so my funny bird that I came across when I was in Italy
2:09:00
because I do a lot of hill walking in Tuscany was a whoopee bird
2:09:04
that's a real one is it? that is a whoopee bird actually bounces along like a magpie
2:09:10
but has I think one of your researchers looked it up and then lo and behold
2:09:14
there it was up in that lovely part of the world, Glenafric
2:09:18
and where did I see a whoopee bird while I was looking for pine martens
2:09:22
so to anybody I would say So the whoopee bird is in the domestic league and the international league
2:09:28
It is indeed. Wow. So it's doing its rounds. So along with everything else, and of course, bearing in mind I'm Scottish
2:09:36
you have all those lovely ptarmigans and different types of pheasants. Yes, of course
2:09:40
So birds really, you know, they're a delight. They're just beautiful and like any other creature
2:09:45
I think when you get into it, it's just, that's it, you're done. You have made, I mean, actually you and Flo, everybody's been brilliant
2:09:52
but you and Flo have been lyrical in your contributions to this program. You've been actually lyrical
2:09:57
and that is exactly what I tried to convey to Keith's confusion 39 minutes ago
2:10:03
This radio is having the same effect on people that the actual process of birdwatching has
2:10:10
It's spreading peace and lyricism. Yes, sorry, carry on. Could I also say to you, I worked with the BBC
2:10:17
and I know maybe it's a bad word now, but I did children's programs many years ago, and I always remember, I never wanted to go into TV
2:10:23
because I always felt that the medium of the radio is such that you've got to work harder to create the picture
2:10:31
Do you know what I mean? Finally, finally somebody sees, finally someone gets it
2:10:35
Thank you. You're not wrong. So with your, whether it's your tone, your enthusiasm for me
2:10:42
so when I've gone and I've seen a bird or somebody's looking over my shoulder, they stop to watch
2:10:46
My whole family's taken in with it. I mean, once upon a time, they would have probably said bird watching is slightly mad
2:10:53
It's that kind of person. It's the people that sort of draw about the curtains. Not at all
2:10:57
So I've actually got nearly everybody that I know, and I've got a wide circle of friends, would never say that of me
2:11:03
I think it's because when you add all the other aspects to it, it does make you feel that it's worthwhile being alive
2:11:11
When you see what's going on around about you and you open up your eyes
2:11:15
That is it. Yes. I mean, it does. It fills you with a joy, a joy de vivre
2:11:20
And the peace. Yes. And the peace. And if you were in the Highlands, and I'm sure when you were talking about the sea
2:11:25
what was the sea eagles, was it? Three of them. I think when you just stand in that moment
2:11:31
and that's that mindfulness moment, and you actually realize that you are coexisting
2:11:36
and I think that's what makes it all worthwhile, and that's actually the essence of everything, really. And a little bit of your own insignificance
2:11:42
in the great scheme of things. The world will turn, it will come before, it will be there when we've gone
2:11:46
and if you're stressed and worrying about things that aren't actually that stressful
2:11:50
it can really take you out of yourself as well. Exactly, and it's a reminder. And I'll tell you something
2:11:54
I do a little bit of work with rewilding and wild Oceania and the thing that comes out of it
2:11:59
and a lot of young people are heading that way because I think sometimes they're done with the crap
2:12:05
that's being churned out everywhere around them. Yes. And what they see, it's almost like
2:12:11
we call it taking people into, say, an environment to plant a tree, for instance
2:12:17
because my great friend runs Trees for Life and he decided after 30 years
2:12:22
I'm going to plant a million trees. And that is what he did
2:12:27
He now says that taking the youngsters from the inner cities to a place where they can see the birds
2:12:34
where they can touch the soil, is better than Prozac. I can believe it, actually
2:12:39
Touching the soil connection. I mean, it is on the list of things that are absolutely brilliant for your mental health
2:12:44
And if three quarters of a million 16 to 29-year-olds have discovered that for themselves
2:12:49
then we can only celebrate, actually. Before you go, how do you spell whoopee
2:12:53
Whoopee, I think... I don't know whether it's W-O-O-P-I, but I think your research found it out
2:13:00
Okay. Lovely sweet bird and very cheeky. Aha. Top 43 is the time
2:13:07
Thank you for that. This is absolutely glorious. See, Bruce, I told you, didn't I
2:13:12
I was very sceptically right, but this is a really lovely phone-in
2:13:16
Quite a lot of messages like that. In fact, I'm getting a little bit too many to keep up
2:13:19
But we can see that we touching parts We won be doing it on a regular basis That would be a little bit strange but we will be enjoying it while it lasts Thank you to Elaine staying actually in Scotland to Evan who in Dumfries Evan what would you like to say
2:13:35
So I particularly want to kind of bring the angle for tiny children for birdwatching
2:13:41
So I've got a three-year-old daughter and bird watching, and perhaps why it's generally more accessible for young people as well
2:13:49
is it's portable and free and requires no equipment. You don't even need to understand or have any knowledge of the birds
2:13:56
She's three and she doesn't really understand what the birds are doing or who they are or what species they are
2:14:01
But she can spot them and she takes real joy in seeing that. If we're walking through the woods, you know
2:14:07
it builds that awareness and interaction with nature as a living thing that we're part of
2:14:12
And she'll hold her hand up and shush me and say, Dad, can you hear that? And point out the bird or hear that
2:14:18
you know, you'll hear that kind of football rattle sound of a woodpecker
2:14:22
And then we can creep through and try and see if we can find the tree that it's on. We've got little feeders in the window
2:14:28
I'm sitting watching the birds just out the window just now. I stuck a feeder on my window and I got a flipping pigeon
2:14:34
I had to take it off again. It was too big trying to get its head into the sea
2:14:39
But they're a lovely invention, aren't they? Mm-hmm. They really are. Have you got any entrance for my league
2:14:45
I do. It's not... Globally not particularly rare, but in the UK, the rarest owls
2:14:52
the long-eared owl, I believe, and I helped rescue one of those from a tree
2:14:56
Did you? Yeah. Surely it wanted to be in the tree? Well, it didn't
2:15:00
because it was the middle of the day and it was caught in a piece of fishing line
2:15:04
that somebody had left stuck in the tree. You rescued it from fishing line. You didn't rescue it from a tree
2:15:09
Sorry, I'm being pedantic. How completely have you just defeated Flo with her short-eared owl
2:15:17
I don't know. I'm not a particular expert in owls, but a few weeks after that
2:15:21
I did speak to a guy from the RSPB who said, I can't believe that
2:15:26
because I've actually never seen one of those. I'd love to see one. Gorgeous. Do short-eared owls grow up to be long-eared owls
2:15:33
Sorry. No, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That was a rubbish joke, wasn't it? That's going down the Pokemon route
2:15:38
Yeah, I agree with you. That was lovely stuff. And there's no way, he says
2:15:44
from the perspective of having daughters who are both over 18 now, would you believe
2:15:51
There's no way you can guarantee it or influence it, but I hope that stays with her
2:15:55
I really do. I hope it stays for life, even if she takes a few years off
2:15:59
when she gets into teenage matters. that closeness to nature is such a wonderful gift for a parent to give to a child
2:16:08
That awareness of it. Sometimes you're out with people, and they just see things that you don't see
2:16:14
I was walking not far from where... I think it was Flo in Brighton
2:16:18
I was walking near Lewis the other day, about three months ago, and I was with someone who just had a tune in a way that I wasn't
2:16:26
and you just spot things. And I'm getting better, so hares are a really good example. I know that's not a bird, Keith
2:16:31
but also owls. I spend a lot of time or I used to spend a lot of time in North Norfolk
2:16:35
and some of the birds there are not just at night either. Occasionally you'd see a bird on a gate
2:16:39
Well, at dusk. So you get into the habit of your eyes spotting these things
2:16:45
and everything changes. 12.46 is the time. James O'Brien on LBC. Okay, here's a game
2:16:54
I've got a guest on the show next week that is not, I mean
2:16:58
it hasn't been a very hard get. i got a message off a mate who i mean he's a broadcaster actually you know him uh and he said
2:17:05
a mutual another friend of his not of mine has written a book about so and so do you want to get
2:17:12
him on and i'm like yeah you know i do so the reason he'd sent me that message was because he
2:17:15
had heard me wax lyrical on this program about this character the star of one of the best things
2:17:21
that has ever happened on a news-based program that's your clue someone who i think of you
2:17:27
remember that little meme that went around last year, asking men why they think about the Roman Empire so much
2:17:32
I think about this guy in the way that other men think about the Roman Empire
2:17:36
It was a moment of such absolute beauty that I, when I'm feeling a bit down in the dumps
2:17:42
and I can't get my hands on my binoculars to go birdwatching, I will watch again and again
2:17:47
the clip of this guy appearing on a news programme and it never fails to bring me joy
2:17:54
And I want you, before one o'clock today, to guess who I'm talking about, and I will confirm or deny your suggestions
2:18:01
because I think you're going to be able to work it out, and I think you might even be as excited as I am
2:18:05
about the idea of him coming in the studio to tell us more
2:18:10
because the last time I checked, he disappeared. No one knew where he was
2:18:15
It was as if he'd been lost track of, but he has been tracked down
2:18:19
I'm not going to tell you the author's name either yet, because then you might look it up and work out. So, who do you think it is
2:18:25
and I wonder if anybody, I almost said, does anybody love me enough to know who that I'm talking about
2:18:31
But that's not quite, I mean, do you love the programme enough? I've already got one
2:18:36
Well played, Matt. Matt has got in there already with the correct answer
2:18:40
How many correct answers will we get before I actually reveal the guest about whom I am
2:18:45
ridiculously excited? But before that, the birds, the birds, the birds. Anna is in Oxford
2:18:51
Anna, what made you pick up the phone? Well, hi, James. Hello, Anna. Well, I wanted to talk about, so for the last six months, I've been really in a bad way, depression-wise
2:19:01
I'm sorry. Anxious and really just wanted to just not be here, basically
2:19:06
Yes, I'm sorry. And my, thank you, my partner's daughter moved up to Costa Rica to work in a guest house in the jungle
2:19:14
And we decided we wanted to go and support her and visit her. Support her, I did want to support her, but also visit her, obviously
2:19:20
hardship but i did start to get actually really quite anxious about it and it became quite a big
2:19:26
thing anyway we went i mean really right out in the jungle i mean right out in a sort of
2:19:32
corrugated tin hut you know uh with snakes in the path and everything like that and um
2:19:37
uh jose works with uh a guide who's been working there for 55 years lived in the jungle since a
2:19:43
child yes and this man he could just uh find anything like a tree frog he could hear them
2:19:49
and he would find them. He would just go there and find them and we saw so much nature
2:19:53
An actual spotter, as it were. Yeah. So they're perfect people to go on these tours with, aren't they? Yeah
2:19:59
I mean, you know, we found everything. Tapirs we had to track to find them and dart frogs everything Anyway and the snakes which are poisonous which you can see but he could always find them But particularly the bird So we were
2:20:14
driving along and he could spot from a massive, massive tree right up something called a colloquially
2:20:20
a stick bird, which is actually called a potou, P-O-T-O-O. And this is the second time in 55
2:20:27
years he'd ever seen this bird the second time and i mean how he saw it i do not know because
2:20:33
even with the binoculars it was like what and eventually you could just about see the reason
2:20:38
it's called a stick bird is because it lies vertically yeah actually on the trunk rather
2:20:43
than horizontally and of course it's colored exactly like the trunk so how he's probably
2:20:48
the hardest bird in the world to spot yeah because of this because it's literally i mean
2:20:54
it's camouflaged, isn't it? Completely. It's a funny-looking fella, isn't it? It's a funny-looking fella
2:21:00
as well. You wouldn't even know it was a bird until it opened its mouth. You'd think it was a stick. And it's a bit like a whale shark
2:21:06
It opens its mouth and just sort of lets the insects come into it
2:21:09
with no effort. Yeah, but it only does that during night, so you'll never see it during
2:21:13
the day, but obviously it was fast asleep. How excited was the guide? I mean, he just couldn't
2:21:20
believe it, and my Part of his daughter was just amazed. It was so exciting
2:21:25
He got out his big kind of telescope thing and we were taking... I mean, even taking a photo
2:21:29
I'm looking at it going, is it really... You can see it's a bird, but it's really, really... And that's contagious, right
2:21:33
That excitement is utterly contagious. Absolutely amazing. And the whole... So we were there for about two weeks
2:21:39
and the effect it had on my mental health was absolutely... I just felt..
2:21:42
I can hear it. I can hear it in your voice. I completely and utterly got
2:21:46
Trump derangement syndrome and every second I'm looking at blue sky. What's Trump done
2:21:50
What's Trump done? and obviously we didn't have much internet access. Perfect. It was just like, I'm just away from, I know what's going on
2:21:56
but it was like, I'm not totally absorbed in it. I'm absorbed in something that's much more..
2:22:02
That is absolutely beautiful. And has it sustained? Are you going to be able to carry this forward
2:22:07
now that you're back in Oxford? I hope so. I hope so too
2:22:11
So far, so good. I bet you are. I bet you are. Yeah, and there'll be other things
2:22:14
You might not see a stick bird, but there'll be other things that can take you to that place that the stick bird took you to
2:22:19
and it is, I mean, it is like opening a door. It's like living in a building and not knowing
2:22:25
that there's a room in it. When you find a hobby like this or you find an enthusiasm like this
2:22:30
it can be the most transporting thing. Thank you, Anna. That was lovely, wasn't it
2:22:35
That was really lovely. I'd love to see a stick bird. I've got a really good full disclosure for you this week
2:22:41
I think it's right up there with the best. It's with a woman called Emma Greed
2:22:45
and I think I opened it by saying you are someone about whom my listeners will either know
2:22:49
everything or nothing. Emma was born in Plasto in East London, and she is now one of the most
2:22:57
successful entrepreneurs around, particularly or especially in the fashion industry. She is the
2:23:02
sort of partner and co-founder with various members of the Kardashian family, of the denim
2:23:08
company Good American, and the company Skims as well. But her journey is extraordinary
2:23:14
extraordinary plastow single mother um a bit later in the story a jamaican stepfather
2:23:20
so she's mixed race she's old school working class she's from east london and she has conquered
2:23:26
america and it's an incredible story and here's a tiny bit of it it's what's interesting isn't it
2:23:31
you didn't have a really clear idea of where you wanted to be but i didn't know but you zoned in
2:23:35
on it by shedding all the things that you worked out you didn't want to be elimination i i didn't
2:23:39
know what how much rejection how much was elimination and how much was rejection sometimes you would go to places and they'd be like, there's nothing for you to do here. And I was like, but
2:23:46
guys, I'm working for free. I need you to give me a try. I need to show you what I can do. Sometimes
2:23:51
I would leave. I remember there was a couple of them where I was just like, what is happening? I can't like do nothing. You know, they'd put you in a cupboard and I'd be like, well, there's no
2:23:57
exposure, no nothing. And so you just get out of there. But other times they'd absolutely rinse
2:24:02
you. Do you know what I mean? You'd be there till 11 p.m. And that's what you preferred. I was like
2:24:05
let's just go for it. I was happy to be taken advantage of, if I'm really honest, because I was
2:24:11
like, this is all for me. I was like, who is this for? It's just for me. And you believed that it
2:24:15
was going to lead somewhere. Some people get downcast in those sort of situations because
2:24:19
they can't see where it's going to lead. But you were moving around so much. But that's your job
2:24:23
You know, your job is to have the vision to see what it's going to do. Yeah, but not everybody gets that. No, but I really got it. How many letters do you think you sent? Oh, definitely
2:24:31
more than 100. Just literally everything that sounded vaguely feasible for you. Every single
2:24:36
thing, you know, in these agencies. Can I come and have a go? Can I come and have a go? Every single, I went down back in those days, you know, London Fashion Week had a schedule
2:24:42
I wrote to every single person. I wrote to every single PR agency. I wrote to every single buyer
2:24:46
I wrote to every single shop on the high street. I went, you know, London College of Fashion is just off of Oxford Street
2:24:52
I went down Oxford Street. I made a list of every store starting from Selfridges, obviously, high aspirations, all
2:24:57
the way to BHS, whatever we can get. And so I just went down. And I remember like Sir Philip Green
2:25:03
This is how much audacity I had. Sir Philip Green was like a patron or something
2:25:07
He's not a sir anymore. But anyway, different conversation for a different time
2:25:13
But I remember he came and did a college visit and I gave him my resume
2:25:17
And he went, oh, I love. And he sort of handed it to someone. And I remember thinking, you're lost
2:25:22
Yeah, I'm awful, you. You're nuts. Seriously, I didn't know a great deal about her
2:25:26
My producer, the podcast producer, Anya, was adamant that I absolutely had to talk to her
2:25:30
And within about 10 minutes of that conversation starting, I was transported
2:25:34
She's inspirational and wonderful. And you need to listen to Full Disclosure. this week. There's a couple of other absolute crackers
2:25:39
in the pipeline as well. I've had quite a busy week. But next week, yes, you're right
2:25:44
Some of you have got it. Joseph writes, is it the taxi driver? Dan says
2:25:47
oh my God, it's Guy Goma. Quite a few of you, actually quite a few
2:25:51
of you guessed it correctly. It is Guy Goma. And if you don't know who he is, just Google it now
2:25:56
and thank me later. Guy Goma, G-O-M-A. Probably the finest thing that's ever happened
2:26:01
on television, including the time that elephant did a poo on Blue Peter
2:26:06
Elliot Gotkin is the author, and they'll both be joining me one day next week. We haven't decided which one yet
2:26:11
That's it from me for another week. Strangely, that's straight where my mind went to
2:26:15
the elephant on Boopita. It's our age, isn't it? It must be our generational moment. Or we've just got an interest in scatological humour
2:26:21
Or elephant. Or elephant. Could be that. Next week on the show, elephant spotting
2:26:25
and how it changed my life. If you missed any of this show, you can listen back on our free Global Player app
2:26:30
or the LBC app, where you can stay up to date with all the latest news videos and opinions. You can listen to a range of podcasts
2:26:34
including James O'Brien Daily, the best bits from my LBC show every day
2:26:38
So do download the official LBC app for free from your app store now. Coming up at four on LBC, it's Tom Swarbrick
2:26:44
But now it's time for Sheila Fogarty. James O'Brien on LBC
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