Up next in 10
Ali Miraj and his callers react to the ongoing Cambridge plagiarism row, as academics demand an independent inquiry into the appointment of Jason Arday.
0:00 | What does the resignation say about the UK's race obsession?
4:54 | Nick argues higher education is 'locked down by the left'
8:22 | Joe believes it's the result of DEI being 'pushed down our throats'
13:04 | Clemmy points out the 'irony' of Arday specialising in sociology
16:31 | Was my son rejected by Cambridge because they 'favour' DEI?
18:43 | Louise argues people from minorities carry an 'extra burden'
Mr Arday resigned on Wednesday evening after mounting pressure over accusations he plagiarised parts of his PhD thesis, falsely claimed to have published a book and made false claims about his employment history and achievements.
Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp
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0:00
call me old-fashioned, but I find it all a little bit odd
0:03
But on the back of all this, a lot of people were criticizing me for being anti-black and
0:07
all this other nonsense that people come out with, all this tripe. And I just wanted to take an opportunity to offer you a chance, an opportunity for yourself
0:16
to apologize. Look, we all make mistakes. I make many mistakes as well in my life
0:22
I'm not perfect. No one's perfect. We all screw up from time to time
0:25
We all read into things in the wrong way, draw conclusions in the wrong way
0:30
And look, this is now your opportunity. Those of you who chastised me on social media after last week
0:35
when I was just trying to have an honest conversation about whether successful black people in this country
0:40
are held to a different or higher standard. And I think in some cases they absolutely are
0:45
I mean, we agreed on that. I mean, I agreed on that too in certain cases
0:49
I'm not sure that was the case here, though. so if you're feeling a little bit queasy and shy and the cat's got your tongue um just call in and
0:57
apologize it's all right we all make mistakes it's fine but before you jump to conclusions and play
1:02
the race war with me at least get your facts right or at least go and find out why a professor who's
1:08
saying that he hasn't done anything wrong then decides to resign in the middle of the week on
1:11
the back of a massive international ferrari about the fact that he was appointed with severe questions
1:17
about the rigidity and the thoroughness of that vetting and appointment system
1:23
Do you think that that's fair? So yeah, go ahead and apologise. Not that I hold anything against you
1:28
Just being, just giving you an opportunity, that's all. What does the resignation of a black Cambridge professor
1:33
tell us about modern Britain's obsession with race? Cambridge has now announced a review into its appointment procedures
1:39
for senior academics after accusations that our day was selected for, inverted commas, media visibility reasons rather than academic excellence
1:50
Now, I thought universities were about academic excellence. Indeed, Cambridge meant to be one of the eminent universities in the world. I was just there a couple of weeks ago
1:59
having a lovely dinner at Jesus College, Cambridge with the master of Jesus College
2:03
lovely lady, very civilized environment. I mean, I'd love to go there myself. Maybe I should apply
2:07
Maybe I'll get in because I'm brown. I took a few boxes. Maybe this is my time to get into
2:13
Cambridge University to do my PhD in international affairs. Don't know, maybe I should. But it is a
2:18
little bit odd, isn't it? If people are thinking that this was appointed, or at least some people
2:22
are questioning whether this was based on media visibility. One, other senior academics apparently
2:27
suggested that his 2023 appointment when he was 37 years old, the youngest professor in Cambridge
2:34
history, right? Black professor in Cambridge history, I should say. Some are arguing it was
2:41
a quick fix to address the university's diversity issues. Now, Cambridge initially announced an
2:47
investigation into Arday's academic qualifications and honorary appointments on Wednesday after previously refusing to be drawn into the fiasco, as well as accusations surrounding plagiarism
2:59
and his PhD thesis, which he did at another university. There are also questions around
3:06
honorary appointments and other things as well, and fabrication in his academic work
3:12
Now, I don't know about any of these things at all, right? I'm not saying that they've been fabricated in any way whatsoever
3:17
All I'm saying is it would be really helpful to hear from the individual concerned at the heart of it
3:22
which we as yet haven't really, other than the statement that he made saying that he was going
3:25
and that it had all become a bit too much and, you know, he wanted to protect the..
3:32
He basically said the personal cost of media scrutiny had become too great and he no longer wished to live under the constant spotlight
3:39
He said his resignation should not be mistaken for an acceptance of the narratives that have surrounded him
3:45
Well, if that's the case, then stand and fight and tell us what the real narratives are. But what we do know is this
3:49
This guy was lauded by Cambridge, by multiple universities, by the BBC many, many times
3:56
He had a series there about loneliness. He was a guest editor of the Day programme
4:01
exactly the kind of guy who fits the narrative of the oppressed
4:08
an oppressed black minority who's done well. He's also had a disability in terms of autism and other things
4:14
so tick several boxes. And that's the argument, right? And you think to yourself, well, this is really, really odd
4:20
Now, there was a panel that was part of his appointment process
4:25
and they were apparently very thorough. They looked into all of these things very thoroughly and appointed him
4:30
And Professor Hilary Kremen, head of the Faculty of Education, Arday's former boss, described him as the best in the world
4:37
The best in the world. When Arday himself raised questions about whether his appointment was tokenistic, his boss, Hilary Kremen, replied
4:47
the board of electors on your interview day were absolutely unanimous. We are so lucky to have you
4:53
I wonder why anyone is surprised. The higher education sector, all education, but especially the higher education sector in Britain, has in the last couple of decades especially become so locked down by the left
5:09
Look at the Campbell culture. No one on the centre or right can go and speak at a university
5:13
And if you're a professor, if you're a student, anyone involved in a university
5:18
unless you toe the line on any number of subjects, economics, the environment, Palestine, Gaza
5:24
it doesn matter what it is unless you follow the dogma the left dogma that being peddled you basically out of it And it the same for the students All three of my children went to university They all said the same thing And you know I actually advocate to young people now not to go to university
5:42
I think what we need is new private universities who are properly liberal and free to be set up
5:48
and just basically can the entire system, which, by the way, students and their families could do
5:53
by just voting with their feet and going to, you know, having new private universities
5:57
By the way, the fees are up for the number of hours taught or a total ripoff. That's a bit of a rant about the university sector, but I think it plays to what you're talking about this hour, because how would you expect anything else
6:07
Nick, shouldn't universities, particularly a university of Cambridge's international stature, and I love Cambridge, I think it's a fantastic university, beautiful colleges and all the rest of it, it's absolutely dreamy over there
6:19
Is there a fundamental thing not to maintain academic excellence before anything else
6:26
Well, I think so, but I mean, the jury's still out on the university
6:30
and what mistakes they may or may not have made in hiring this guy
6:35
Because, you know, I was talking to my wife about that this morning when we were listening to it on news, and we were saying
6:40
you know, when you normally go to a job interview, are you treated like a potential fraud or criminal
6:45
If you say, oh, I came from a single family, I had to take a year off university because I was sick
6:50
does anyone go back to look at your medical records to find out
6:53
And by the way, he'd also defrauded other academic institutions. So it wasn't as though he'd come completely out of the..
7:02
Well, allegedly, right? So he should just come forward and clear it all up, Nick
7:07
I mean, that would be the best thing to do, right? Yeah, and I heard someone phone up a show earlier today
7:13
to defend him and say, oh, well, he didn't hurt anyone. Well, he certainly did, because he basically took someone else's job or livelihood
7:21
well it's interesting because in a letter to the university's vice chancellor professor deborah
7:26
a group of senior academics pointed to the damage caused by the r-day affair two of the signatories
7:31
questioned whether r-day's appointment of at a relatively young age was influenced by a focus
7:36
on his incredible backstory so yeah damages a faith in the academy itself absolutely but is
7:44
anyone's does anyone have faith in the academy in the higher education academic structure in the
7:49
That's my broader point beyond this fellow. I think it's a very good point, Nick
7:53
and I'll just chuck in one thing before you go, which is it wasn't so long ago that Cambridge rescinded
7:59
an offer for a visiting fellowship to Jordan Peterson for various views that he held
8:04
He's a right-wing, a very well-known right-wing academic, psychologist, and they rescinded that
8:08
and you're thinking one of the most famous psychologists in the world, world-renowned, you rescind that
8:13
but yet you've got another rule for Jason Arde. It seems a bit odd to me, but there we are
8:18
I'm not an academic. I don't operate in these circles. I'm just a lay member of the British public
8:22
So isn't this just the result of DEI being pushed down our throat
8:26
for many, many years? It's got to a stage now where... I'm speaking as a non-white person
8:33
before anyone jumps in, accusing me of anything. But you're racist, clearly, Joe
8:38
That's what you'll be... Well, I'm not, because... That's what you'll be branded on. It doesn't take much. Go on. No, no, I'm interested in objective truth, no matter what
8:45
You know, who it favours. that's what that's what i'm all about so it for years and years um it got to a stage i think where
8:53
towards the i mean i think it's changing now but it's got to a stage where people just
8:58
looking at someone if they ticked few boxes you know if they were black if they were disabled and
9:02
stick you know ticked few other boxes and it sounds like this is what this this guy did
9:07
effectively for university but then to go and go on this crazy pr and promote him and say he's the
9:12
best in the world and all these other things it's practically insane and i mean i would go as far as
9:18
saying how many cases over the last 20 years how many times do you think people have gone to jobs
9:24
and have done an interview and they were actually the right person they were a a more qualified
9:29
person but didn't get the job because they didn't tick those boxes yeah isn't that kind of a racist
9:34
racism towards white people of course i mean i've always believed that and look i'm just pretty
9:39
old-fashioned, right? Because when people accuse me of being anti-black, I find it ridiculous and
9:45
quite demeaning because I'm named after a black boxer, Muhammad Ali, right
9:50
I respect people like Nelson Mandela, like Martin Luther King, who, let's not forget, told us
9:55
right on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial that we should judge people by the content of their character
9:59
not by the colour of their skin. And yet we're living in a world now, Joe
10:03
where it's the colour of your skin that seems to be paramount above everything else
10:07
or at least that's where Cambridge has got itself into an almighty mess now and has to explain to us and i hope it does quite openly
10:14
to restore some confidence in the university uh which has been quite damaged by this and as the
10:19
telegraph in it's one of its pieces today says put simply did cambridge university lower its own
10:24
standards to hire a man of questionable merit simply because of his skin color question mark
10:28
i don't know the answer yeah no no and i think what you also have to look at is how the universities
10:34
are being funded if you look at the universities they're heavily heavily liberal so the way they're
10:39
funded the way everything at that level not just at the education system but also big corporate
10:44
companies are all funded because they need to meet certain esg requirements etc etc so of course
10:51
they're going to push and get these people through the doors because they want to secure more funding
10:55
for their business and whatever it's not the right incentive i don't think in my opinion
10:59
and it just drives the wrong behaviors you put bad policies in place you're going to get bad results
11:04
but you see have we moved through it to a position now joe where instead of talking about fairness and about merit and about you know barriers not being put in the way of talented people of any skin colour including black people of course right Now we talking
11:19
about something very different, which is we're going to, and I'm not saying Cambridge have done
11:23
this, but it would be nice to know what Cambridge's view is. But some people might be questioning
11:28
did Cambridge or others involved in all of this actually suspend their normal standards and rigor
11:33
and rigour because this particular individual or someone of his ilk, let's say
11:39
ticked boxes that would make the university look good and hit diversity targets ahead of time
11:44
which they wanted to be close to 9% in terms of their BAME professorship, right, or faculty
11:51
That's the question, right? I don't have the answer. I'm just asking the question. Absolutely, exactly that. So you've got this, you know, Cambridge and Oxford are the elite
12:00
They are. They are. They're meant to be. They're meant to be the elite. And this shows how far DER has gone
12:07
that even elite institutions like Dosti would drop their standards to tick some boxes
12:12
so they can go on this crazy PR about how they have a black professor
12:17
And I would go further and say this is a bad reflection
12:21
on hundreds and thousands of very smart potential black professors. This is the point
12:27
Thank you, Joe. Everyone will now, Ali, will look at that person
12:31
Did they really get it? Yeah. Yeah, did they get it or did they for that reason
12:35
I mean, it's insane. It's insane. This is not a good PR for that community
12:41
This puts back the cause. Yes, this kind of thing. It really, really does
12:46
I mean, if any well-meaning white liberal out there, or it doesn't have to be white liberal
12:50
it could be a liberal of any colour who thinks they're doing the right thing, thinks that this kind of fiasco actually helps black people
12:57
or any other person from an ethnic minority advance themselves, you're sadly mistaken
13:02
And it puts the cause back years. I mean, when my mum first told me about this whole thing
13:07
I thought it was quite funny that out of every subject he managed to sneak into it was sociology
13:12
because I think it's rather ironic that these students have actually probably been part of quite a good example
13:19
of how sociology shapes society and the fact that Cambridge was so desperate to look good
13:24
in the eyes of people and tick boxes about diversity that they hired this man who actually wasn't qualified
13:32
Clemmie, can I ask you, sorry for asking, you sound quite young. How old are you
13:37
16. Right, so Clemmie, why have you been interested in this particular story
13:42
What has captured you about this? I mean, my mum told me about it because she asked my opinion on it
13:51
And that was the first thing that came to mind was just how funny and ironic it was
13:56
that out of every subject this man happened to sneak into, it was sociology
14:00
because it just, I don't know, it felt quite funny to me
14:04
that these students who are now complaining about how they haven't been taught properly
14:09
have probably actually witnessed quite a good sociology experiment and been part of it in a weird way
14:14
Well, it's interesting because you're right because some of the students, as I understand, it's being reported in some of the media
14:19
are actually very unhappy about the level of supervision they got from Professor Arday
14:23
because they didn't feel he supervised them much at all. I'm not exactly sure why, but that's the argument
14:28
Clemmie, are you hoping to go to university? Yeah. Now, tell me, when you read this kind of thing
14:34
and you hear about it and you discuss it, I mean, how does it make you feel about the value of it
14:40
given this kind of thing has happened, or at least there are questions to be answered by the university
14:45
about what indeed has or has not happened? I mean, how does it make you feel
14:49
I think, I guess it makes me question why people and students do just blindly follow authority
14:56
that they've been told maybe those students did have a gut feeling that something was wrong and
15:02
this professor wasn't actually as qualified as he seemed but because they were told no he's
15:07
qualified and he has the right to teach you and he's got all the correct things to do so
15:11
they didn't question it as much they didn't push back and they just blindly followed it and i wonder
15:15
if that happens more often than we think in some education settings where people are just told
15:21
the teachers and the professors know what they're doing when maybe in reality there are gaps in that
15:26
knowledge. Clevnie, Marley's a wonderful part of the world, I know it very well
15:29
but tell me this amongst your school friends are you having conversations about
15:36
structural racism in British society and within institutions and the fact that institutions are
15:42
inherently structurally racist and we have to be anti-racist and go out of our way to be anti-racist
15:48
to actually move society along are you actually having these discussions with your peer group
15:54
I would actually say yes with quite like one or two of my friends who are also quite politically minded
15:59
we do have these conversations. Because I have quite a diverse friend group. And seeing how some of these embedded racial biases
16:09
affect these people and my friends personally does make us angry because these are people we care about
16:16
So we do actually have these conversations and we do have discussions about it
16:21
What are you hoping to study, Clemmie, before I let you go? I'm hoping to study, I'm going into sixth form
16:27
but if I went to university, I was hoping to study law. Good for you. Cambridge, obviously its reputation has been damaged by this
16:34
and I think probably, and rightly so. I think it's not just the academics and the professors
16:39
that Cambridge discriminates positively towards for racial aspects but it also the students My son interviewed at Cambridge got an interview and didn get a place And fair enough I think OK well there many people that apply there
16:57
But I think of all people, you know, obviously it's just mum talking
17:01
but he is incredibly academic, but he's also passionate and interested in his subject, which is physics
17:07
He got four A stars at A level. He wants to, his ambition is to find the unifying theory
17:13
between quantum physics and whatever the other type of physics is. He is so passionate
17:17
He loves this subject. He was so disappointed not to get into Cambridge. He did get into Imperial College subsequently
17:23
and had just finished his first year. He got 85% in his first year exams
17:28
He is top of his field. And I can only think, when I hear about the Jason Arde issue
17:34
I sort of think, well, okay, was it DEI then that made my son not get into Cambridge
17:39
Claire, serious question. Can your son, apart from academics, because you focus a lot about it
17:45
can he run six marathons in six days? No, he cannot. Right
17:49
Has he invented a cure for cancer? No, strangely not yet. Has he flown to the moon
17:53
No, no, certainly no. Did he invent a flight with the Wright brothers
17:58
No. Okay, well then don't complain then. But he might find me in the Bancuri. But you're just talking about academics, right
18:03
which is a very old-fashioned way of looking about things, Claire. That is what Cambridge is supposed to concentrate on
18:06
They're not supposed to concentrate on anything else other than academics and passion
18:10
but he is white, he's privately educated, he's straight and they, in many aspects of life now, they're discriminated against
18:18
and if you have prejudice against white people because of their privilege, anti-colonialism, anti-capitalism
18:24
then that's a great definition of racism Well, I honestly feel that if this continues on that basis
18:30
there was a book written by Eric Kaufman called White Lash You know, when the majority starts kicking back
18:37
It's a pretty ugly place, and we'll touch on some of that in the next hour. But Claire, thank you very much indeed for your call, and best wishes to your son
18:43
I've been thinking about it a lot, and I wonder if this whole thing actually tells us something quite interesting
18:50
about how we have become obsessed with Ray Sally. So listening to you describe how widely he was lauded, he wasn't just a successful academic
18:59
He was an incredibly attractive story for Cambridge. Young, black, autistic, overcoming enormous disadvantage
19:07
So he represented something Cambridge very understandably wanted to be able to say about itself
19:13
Yes, correct. And I think there's the potential problem, Ali, because bias isn't only disliking somebody because of who they are
19:20
You know, we can also become biased towards something because we really want it to be true
19:24
Yeah. So I'm not saying Cambridge lowered its standards. We don't know that
19:29
But it's reasonable to ask whether Arde represented something that was so attractive that it affected their scepticism that they applied and the independence of their scrutiny
19:41
Because once they made him represent more than Jason Arde, they inadvertently created two risks, Ali
19:49
It would either see what it wanted to see in him and they win. But if he fell, what he represented, what they'd attached to him, would fall with him
19:57
So we racialized his success and now we're racializing his failure. And that's the bit I find really uncomfortable because whatever turns out to be true about the allegations
20:07
Jason Arde is also just a man who has agency. If he made bad choices, they were choices made by Jason Arde
20:15
Not because he was a black man. His race doesn't explain his character or his actions
20:19
I agree. Yet because we've already made his success representative of something bigger
20:23
his failure now becomes representative too of DEI and all of this stuff
20:28
And, you know, there's the irony for equality, because people from minorities, Ali, end up carrying an extra burden
20:35
Their success becomes evidence that equality is working and their failure becomes evidence that it isn't
20:41
But neither really tells us whether the system itself is actually equal. So I would say if we want to know whether black academics face barriers
20:48
of course race matters. You know, we have to look at what's happening across the system
20:52
but if we're trying to establish what one particular man did or didn't do his race may
20:57
tell us absolutely nothing Ali he has agency as an individual his actions are his they aren't black
21:02
actions I agree I agree maybe maybe that's where we get confused treating people equally doesn't
21:09
mean pretending race never matters because sometimes it does of course it's being able
21:13
to distinguish distinguish when race is part of the explanation and when we're making it part of
21:18
the explanation I think you've summed it up beautifully as you always do you're absolutely right race does matter in certain contexts uh race does not excuse any of the actions that he
21:28
may or may not have done but the interesting point that i found that you made louise was on the part
21:32
of cambridge the fact that they may have may have wanted him that made them blind to this because
21:39
they wanted him for their own purposes to fulfill all sorts of other criterias indeed john preston
21:44
emeritus professor of sociology at the university of essex said and i quote the appointment of
21:49
Professor Arday certainly raised eyebrows at the time with people who work in the area
21:53
because his publication record appeared rather thin. It raises questions about whether he was appointed
21:59
for other parts of his CV. To your point, Louise, he goes on to say this
22:03
There are a lot more qualified people who would have been more suitable..
22:07
They probably wanted to address their own failures in DEI in the past
22:13
There you go. Yeah, and, you know, what I say to you all the time, Ali
22:18
if we all just understood our own behavior a bit better and things like bias
22:23
we wouldn't end up in the hot water we're in a lot of the time
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