Up next in 10
Cambridge academics are demanding an independent inquiry into the appointment of Jason Arday as a professor after he resigned from the post amid accusations of plagiarism and embellishing his achievements.
00:00 Caller Jo, whose father was forced to resign from his position at Deakin University in Australia after faking results of contraceptive pill experiments, explains to James O'Brien why Jason Arday may have done it.
11:29 Caller Hind, an academic who knows Jason Arday, says the Cambridge professor's speeches were so inspiring that she finds it hard to believe he could have 'exaggerated' his credentials.
Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp
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0:00
done something that we have never done before on this program um i got a text i started reading it
0:05
and i i signaled to eleanor i really really want to speak to this person and i am about to speak
0:10
to this person joe is in brighton joe i can't say what made you pick up the phone because you picked
0:15
up the phone because eleanor rang you um i did yes thank you good morning no thank you for getting
0:21
in touch via text what what well just tell me your story and why this is of particular interest to you
0:27
Well, the short story for me is my father was a very prominent academic fraud, both academic fraud and a fraud in the pharmaceutical community
0:39
And as a result of finding out a lot about his fraudulent behavior, I wrote a book about him and about me, which is called The Scientist Who Wasn't There, which is currently out at the moment, if anyone wants to read it
0:52
because it's about exploring that idea of suddenly, as you have experienced in the last few days
0:59
that kind of deep disappointment, and then the question, why? Why on earth did this person do this thing
1:07
not just to me, but to everybody? And that's what the book is mainly about
1:10
Your dad, Professor Michael Briggs, was forced to resign from his position at Deakin University in Australia
1:15
after it was discovered that he'd faked results of, you know, supposedly of experiments pertaining to the contraceptive pill
1:25
So you get hit much harder than sort of mere interviewers by this kind of event in this moment
1:31
What did you find? What did you discover? Well, yes, I mean, I don't know anything about Professor Arde
1:37
and I can't comment on that. But what has happened last week is a direct parallel
1:42
of what happened with my dad at Beacon University in Australia, which is that the heat started to get too much
1:49
There was an inquiry taking place, there were criticisms, there were questions being asked about his work
1:53
and consequently he very quickly resigned and disappeared not just from the university but from Australia
1:59
and moved to Spain in fact, to a very remote house in Spain
2:02
where he died suddenly and unexpectedly about two months later and this was all happening in 1986
2:10
So many years passed with me only knowing really about that particular scandal in his life
2:15
He died in the midst of this huge scandal, which obviously affected contraceptive pills worldwide
2:22
There's really big news in its day. But in 2020, I discovered that he was involved in a whole other scandal
2:28
about which I had known nothing at all 20 years before, which is the Primados scandal, which I know you know something about
2:34
Yeah, my friend Jason Farrell at Sky News has done extraordinary work in this field
2:39
Exactly so. And so my dad was a linchpin of the Primados story
2:44
20 years before that scandal that actually resulted in the end of his life arguably
2:49
and he was the clinical director or research director of Shearing Pharmaceuticals in the UK
2:55
at the key time when primidos was on the market and questions were being asked about primidos
3:01
so we can now cast back into the 1960s and say well what we now know about this fraudulent
3:09
individual, not just that he was carrying out fraudulent research in the
3:12
1980s, but what I discovered in 2020 was that he'd faked his qualifications
3:18
What, entirely? Largely, yes. He pretended to have a doctorate from Cornell University. I actually
3:27
have the book that he used to have on his shelf, which looks like a doctorate
3:30
from Cornell University, but it actually isn't one. Do we know how he
3:34
made that? He must have broken open what was a doctoral old. Like a kind of blue Peter
3:40
here's one I prepared earlier scenario. Precisely. It's interesting you say that
3:44
because the craft side of that has always fascinated me. Well same here, I don't know
3:48
why. Yes, because that's the point where you sit there and think to yourself, what on earth am I
3:52
doing? Exactly. Exactly. That absolutely fascinates me. There's another fraudulent thesis, which I call the red
4:00
one. There's the blue thesis and the red thesis. Another fraudulent thesis which claims to be
4:04
a doctorate of science, which is sort of super doctorate. Good Lord
4:08
And again, he's gone through the process of actually building something, in that case, out of photocopies of old articles
4:13
Did he ever work for NASA? Yes. Oh, he did actually work for NASA
4:18
I mean, you must have spent the last 20 years just questioning every single thing that you ever learned about him
4:23
Some of them turned out to be true and some of them didn't. Absolutely. I mean, NASA was very early in his career
4:28
I'm just commenting on the age of the person who's obviously the focus of your discussion this morning
4:33
Yes. My dad was very young too. And in his generation, it was more common
4:39
You know, this is talking about the kind of mid-60s when people were younger in those sorts of positions
4:44
But my dad was only like 33, 34 by the time he was research director of Shearing Pharmaceuticals
4:51
He was in his 20s when he was at NASA. He was 23. So he was a prodigy
4:56
Well, in his own mind, yeah. And I think if you present yourself as knowing everything
5:04
particularly as a man, I'm sorry to say, I think gender's part of this story
5:08
Yeah. If you get into the periphery of a monoculture and you stand there and say
5:15
I know all about this, I can do this, people won't question whether you're right or not
5:20
unless they have a lot of evidence to the contrary. And that's what you're doing
5:24
Yeah and so it is like a kind of build of water behind a dam isn it Absolutely And there needs to be a hell of a lot of water before the dam breaks And in both your father case and Jason Arday case
5:35
it was the breaching of the dam that prompted the resignation. It became impossible to hold it back
5:41
And while I appreciate that you can't talk about Jason Arday, in terms of your dad, and I bet your book is absolutely fascinating
5:49
what do you think drove him? because, you know, it's not hard to feel sorry for someone who ends up..
5:57
Well, maybe it is hard to feel sorry for them, but it's a mad scenario that you are utterly, utterly hostage to fortune
6:04
What drove him to keep pushing himself deeper or digging deeper and deeper into this hole of his own creation
6:10
Because this is my dad, obviously, I'm kind of standing very near this story
6:14
and I want to find out what you might call the truth
6:18
and part of my dad's story has a potential parallel in that he was a working-class man
6:23
growing up in Chadderton in Manchester in the post-war period, and he wants to be a scientist
6:29
He wants to be a spaceman, actually. He reads a lot of science fiction. And he's looking at the world and thinking
6:34
there's loads of people at Oxford and Cambridge and elsewhere and MIT
6:38
and they're going to get what I want. Right. And the only way you can bridge that gap
6:43
or the way you could see of bridging that gap, is to kind of stretch the truth a little bit
6:47
because I want to get into that world and I think I could do well in it, but they won't let me in
6:51
Fake it till you make it. Exactly. And I think that becomes so much part of what you're doing
6:58
that you just can't stop doing it and you forget even... I think he'd forgotten that he'd made up some of this stuff
7:03
to be honest. What was the first thing he made up? Do you know? Well, you see, it's hard to say
7:09
I mean, he wrote a book called The Handbook of Philosophy when he was 20 years old
7:15
knowing nothing at all as far as I know about philosophy. And it's a terrible book
7:19
I've got a copy of it. Someone was prepared to publish this thing in Canada
7:24
And I think he's got a good result. And I think once you start getting good results, you carry on
7:29
Another thing that's important about the Are They story is moving from place to place. Because when I saw my dad's history
7:36
he moved constantly from university to university. And it looked like progress
7:41
when I read it from my standing position. Got it. But once I found out more about him, it's actually flight
7:48
It's mainly moving away from the possibility of getting found out. Because if I move away from these questions, then they will not be..
7:54
I might have to start again, but the questions disappear because the institution is not under threat anymore
7:59
by the presence of a potential fraud in its rank. So, goodbye and good luck
8:04
Yeah, and you encounter more people who don't know very much about you who you can persuade again that you know the answer to all their problems
8:12
This is absolutely fascinating. Absolutely. And as you write in the book, he kind of forgot he was faking it
8:20
Yeah, I think so. I think so. And I think just to look at the story that you're looking at today from the perspective of race
8:27
I think is reductive, really. Yeah, I mean, it is from where you're..
8:32
It's not more true than that. No, of course it is. But also, I would point out to you that this will be the first most people have heard of your dad's story
8:40
although not Vic. Vic's been in touch to say, this lady who's going on about her dad
8:44
I've heard this story before. Has she been on your show before? If not, can you ask where she's
8:48
told the story before? Vic embarking it doesn't really work like that mate. You can't
8:51
turn your radio on and then get a bespoke explanation of where the contributor
8:55
but you obviously have given interviews and written the book I've been a long interview on the
9:01
World Service. So there it is Vic You might have been up late and you might have heard that Vic
9:05
The scientist who wasn't there by Joanne Briggs. And you're right, the race
9:10
element is reductivist but it's also the biggest element of the story for 80 percent of the coverage
9:14
in this country at the moment i couldn't agree more yeah which is which is the tragedy which is
9:18
the tragedy really yeah and perhaps moving on to a wider into a wider perspective i mean i don't
9:22
want to comment too much on all of the aspects sociology has been under pressure for a long time
9:28
anyway and they have had frauds in sociology the thing about my dad's work is he moved from academic
9:35
work into proper science, as it were, when he stepped across from
9:39
university into Shearing Pharmaceuticals in 1966. And at that point, it starts to matter
9:45
what you're talking about. I'm sorry to say it, but what academics say
9:49
matters, of course, in a certain context, but what you say about
9:53
oral contraceptives and whether they're safe or not matters in a rather
9:57
different way. And that's an element of the story. Listen, I'm going to mention it again
10:03
because I really think you deserve to sell a few books as a consequence. Oh, thank you. Not just of contributing to this show
10:09
but of having done the work, actually. The Scientist Who Wasn't There by Joanne Briggs
10:13
You texted me, Jo, so I presume you're vaguely familiar with some of the rubric of this programme
10:18
Yes. So you know that we reserve something for people who... Oh, I'm so excited
10:24
For people who don't know, we reserve something. I'm not going to explain why
10:28
but it is reserved for people whose qualifications for the contribution that they've made to the program
10:34
are beyond belief. And I think everybody listening would agree that you are 157% in that category
10:42
So, Joe Briggs, here it is. I'm William Yoder, and you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
10:53
That's one of my favorite ever, actually, if not the favorite ever Take care seriously And thank you so much for that What an extraordinary insight into this continually extraordinary story It 11
11:06
This is LBC. Claire's in Carlisle. Scott has called from Glasgow. Hi, Scott
11:11
Jane's in Camden first. Hi, Jane. Not all places have felt that they're part of the national story
11:16
and that is what this government is going to work every single day to change
11:22
Hear every side of the story. He needs to get directly to the core issues that people are feeling on a day-to-day basis
11:28
because a lot of people don't feel up. I would rather there be something in Manchester
11:32
than have to always be completely and utterly disregarded by London. I have to draw this kind of walk into the number 10 without the mandate
11:41
Really, we should have a general election. The regional representation that Burnham's got in his cabinet
11:46
because there's nobody from the South West represented in that. How do we get heard
11:50
Listen on our free global player app or the LBC app. LBC, leading Britain's conversation
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14:18
James O'Brien on LBC Text 84850 It is 11.54 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
14:28
I don't know that I've got time left this hour to have a look at how Dick Littlejohn of the Daily Mail
14:33
has tried to make the Jason Ardate story about me with a succession of, ironically enough
14:38
given that we're talking about embellishments and untruths a succession of embellishments and untruths
14:44
because I want to squeeze in at least one more call but do not let me go home without having a proper look at that, right
14:49
And indeed, a little reminder of what is, or who is featured on this week's Full Disclosure
14:56
Dan speaks for many when he writes, please could you stop interviewing such interesting authors
15:00
This is a reference to Joe Briggs, whose contribution to this programme must surely go down
15:04
as one of the greatest ever, really, examples of how if you set your stall out right
15:10
you get contributions from people whose qualifications to contribute are beyond belief
15:15
I've just bought yet another book that I have no time to read. That's all right, mate
15:18
The royalties still count, whether you read it or not. Hind is in Woodthorpe in Nottingham
15:24
Hind, what made you pick up the phone? Well, I've heard the story a few times on the radio
15:29
but I didn't have time to pick up for various reasons. I might stand a little bit biased
15:34
Go on, then. I know Jason. Well, so do I. I am an academic
15:40
I am a non-white academic. I came to this country 10 years ago
15:43
It was bloody hard. I'm sure. Bloody hard to finish my PhD as a single mom
15:50
have enough money to live and to take care of my daughter. A lot of finding a job
15:57
I think there was a bit of luck there. And I might have been hired as a token
16:04
But something I want to talk about as well is that we really don't want to be tokens
16:09
I mean, that's not the point. we have merit and maybe just look at our merit
16:17
rather than making us all the time feel like we're talking... But this is a criticism more of Cambridge University
16:26
if that what they done here They kind of let themselves down and in a way they exposed him to a level of scrutiny that his record would never have been able to sustain it is absolutely it is um i i
16:40
not here to to um to scrutinize uh whether these allegations is correct or wrong some of them are
16:48
clearly some of them are clearly true so i mean that you know claiming that you were a visiting
16:52
professor somewhere and then the institution comes out and says, no, you weren't
16:56
claiming that you've written a book that's never been published. I mean, some of them are clearly untrue
17:00
I understand all that, but we're now looking at these, but we're not looking
17:04
at the achievements as well. I wonder, you know, I cited his work
17:08
and I wonder, he's written with famous and successful professors like Heidi
17:16
Satyamirza, Kehinde Andros, have they not seen that there is, you know
17:23
an issue with the work. I've listened to him in conferences. I've got him to talk at Nottingham
17:29
Trent University and there were professors, you know, in the auditorium listening
17:35
and everybody was inspired by his talk. I don't think you can fake that
17:41
No, I don't think you can either. I mean, I don't say it with full confidence anymore, but certainly when I first
17:47
interviewed him, I thought he was incredible. I mean, truly incredible. So, I mean, two things can be true
17:53
at the same time. He has done many of the things that he is accused of, but he
17:56
is also an extraordinary communicator and a brilliant sociologist. I don't know. I'm not qualified to
18:03
say the second bit, but it could be two things being true at the same time
18:06
This is what I'm thinking, but again, you know, as an academic, as a non-white
18:12
academic, I just feel like oh, it's good that I'm not famous because if I'm famous
18:18
people will just, you know, try to shoot me, basically. Metaphorically speaking. I just feel like if it's
18:24
a white academic, the story wouldn't have been that big. No. That's chicken and egg though, Hind, isn't it
18:32
This is why the story is so I don't want to, I mean difficult in a way
18:36
because it's chicken and egg. He is famous because Cambridge and others and he himself really
18:43
cooperated in in the promotion of his story. For me, I think that it was, I'm pretty sure
18:51
it was the non-verbal childhood and the autism and the overcoming of diversity that would be neurodiversity
18:58
as opposed to ethnic diversity that made the story so extraordinary. But the line is, that was hung around his neck from a very early stage
19:06
that the youngest ever professor and the black professor, the youngest ever professor to be appointed at Cambridge University is black
19:14
and that was, the problem is, that was the thing that inspired many people
19:19
and that was the thing that upset many people because they were racist, but just because..
19:25
That's on Cambridge, but also, you know, I got the job at Nottingham Trent University
19:30
and before that I applied to over 60 jobs. Wow. While I was finishing my PhD
19:36
and basically dog-sitting because I couldn't rent because I didn't have a work contract
19:42
Will this make things harder for people like you in the future, do you think
19:48
It might, but also I'm thinking, I'm thinking now, you know, again, Jason has got a job at Rohampton and then got a job at Durham
19:57
and then got a job at Glasgow. Is it all on them? Was it all talking
20:03
I mean, it's just so confusing, but yes, it feels like as a person of colour
20:11
an academic i'd rather not show up my work so much because i might be accused of whatever and
20:20
and i mean who could survive this level of scrutiny so again two things can be true at
20:27
the same time most people would not would not this level of scrutiny would not throw up anything like
20:32
as many questions as it has for him but you know who would emerge from this level of scrutiny
20:38
entirely unscathed and untainted, especially if the scrutiny was motivated by a desire to uphold the idea
20:45
that there wouldn't be any people of colour in academia unless they were there unfairly
20:51
or unless they'd been advanced or promoted there, not because of their work
20:54
but because of their skin killer, which brings us back. I really recommend... Have you read Jason Ockenday's piece in The Guardian Hint
21:00
Not yet. I really recommend you read that because it's the best by some distance that I've read
21:05
and it covers an awful lot of the points that you've... both made explicitly and implicitly
21:12
I'll just remind you of what Professor Catherine Schofield boiled it down to in conclusion to this conversation
21:18
although with the little postscript of how Dick Littlejohn tried to make it about me
21:22
Number one, his academic misconduct and fantastical claims are pretty clear cut
21:27
He should not have been appointed. Number two, the press or public would not have noticed if he wasn't black
21:32
Number three, they noticed in particular because Cambridge made a huge song and dance
21:36
about appointing a black person. And then just to tally entirely with the point you've been making
21:41
number four, this is on Cambridge. And then they mention in Jason's article an associate professor
21:49
a history don who was found to have committed plagiarism and who had sexual misconduct claims against him upheld
21:55
but who remains in post Cambridge, which brings you back to the point about what would happen to you
22:00
if you were or were not famous
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