Up next in 10
James O'Brien reflects on Reform's Suella Braverman's 'disgusting' position on what it means to be English.
On BBC Question Time the former Home Secretary was accused of reinforcing a 'racist argument' after suggesting non-white people can't be English.
She doubles down, claiming she herself is not English because of her family's heritage.
James O'Brien explains why this position is 'disgusting and ridiculous'.
Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp
#jamesobrien #ukpolitics #suellabraverman #reform #uknews #LBC
LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK.
Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/
Sign up to LBC's weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:00
I don't know how to walk this tightrope, OK, between ignoring people who are desperate for attention, ignoring the bigotry and the attention seeking vileness of damaged men and women who are desperate for attention
0:15
Because I don't have a metric inside me to measure how much harm their bigotry and vileness is doing
0:24
and if I did then I would find it a lot easier
0:29
to decide when it's time not to ignore that person anymore I think I got it wrong with Andrew Tate
0:35
and I think I probably got it wrong with Stephen Yaxley-Lennon as well and that thinking people, damaged people
0:41
who are being disgusting in pursuit of attention and money are best ignored
0:46
we can all agree about that but at what point do you stop ignoring them
0:50
at what point do you stop ignoring Or in this latest clown, I can't really talk about that
0:57
It's an ongoing criminal case. But does that make sense to you? Because I do this for a living
1:03
And it's not like being on Twitter and giving someone a metaphorical slap for being a dingbat or indeed being a racist
1:11
If someone is desperately trying, I mean, make a list of people over the last 10 years who probably managed to achieve more vileness and emotional violence because we started paying attention to them
1:26
It's a really tricky thing, I find really tricky. And I don't get it right
1:31
I don't always get it right. I sometimes get it right. I sometimes don't get it right
1:35
Soura Braverman, very much in this category somebody who is obviously damaged
1:41
obviously desperate for attention and obviously dedicated to spreading bile and bigotry
1:48
in ways that have become increasingly acceptable and fashionable in this country
1:52
and because she is a woman of colour I don't want to and will not talk about her
1:59
in exactly the same way that I would talk about a white person so you've got that dreadful woman saying
2:04
that she doesn't like seeing black faces and brown faces on her television in Nigel Farage's party
2:11
And I feel differently. And I think, by the way, that it's right to feel differently and correct to feel differently
2:18
For example, it is wrong to tell someone of colour that they're not allowed to have profoundly anti-immigrant feelings
2:26
It took me a while to work that out. You're just as entitled because you are English, you see
2:32
and say you're just as entitled to be jingoistic or bigoted about immigration as somebody who is white
2:38
It's a weird thing. It's relevant to what's coming, as you've probably already worked out
2:45
So I have largely ignored her. Even when she did my holiday cover on this radio station
2:51
I filed it under regrettable and ridiculous and best ignored. And yesterday I was talking to Eleanor about this
2:59
because I think she was on with Nick Ferrari. It was one day this week anyway And we listening to it and we sitting there shaking our heads and essentially saying well I said I not going to speak for anybody else here I was explaining to white colleagues how sorry I felt for her
3:18
And so this is now a tragedy. This is now a tragedy. This is now a story of a woman brought so low by her desperation for approval from people who despise her for the color of her skin that we're watching the media 21st century equivalent of a bearded lady on our television screens
3:41
She is, like Liz Truss, a freak show who people queue up to gawp at
3:48
And again, because these people are doing it to themselves as well as having it done to them, the temptation to ignore is big
3:59
But I'm white. And so when she tells black people or brown people that they can't be English, I don't feel it
4:10
I think she is ridiculous absolutely ridiculous but I didn't think she was dangerous
4:18
and I was really wrong I was really wrong and I'll tell you how I know how wrong I was
4:27
I'm going to read you something that a very very good friend of mine posted on a little group chat that we're on together
4:32
because he hadn't really clocked this stuff he's too busy delivering milk every morning
4:39
So he just saw the question time bit last night that I didn't see
4:47
and I'll play you a clip in a moment. And the point is it matters who she is
4:52
This is the point that I missed. This is the point that I missed
4:57
Coming from a brown woman who held high office, mate, it's effing awful
5:03
I'm 45, and this bleep, my friend Wayne, is quite foul-mouthed. I don't think he'll mind me telling you that. So I'm having to edit this message as it goes
5:12
If you listen to this program on a regular basis, you've probably heard his voice. So you will know that he's perfectly capable of talking without deploying more Anglo-Saxonisms than the average football terrorist
5:23
But not not in our group chat. All right. Coming from a brown woman who held high office. That line right there
5:32
I want you to hold on to coming from a brown woman who held high office
5:37
mate it's effing awful I'm 45 and this bleep gets me I'm Wayne from Basildon
5:45
probably conceived on the bonnet of a Ford Capri alright mate we'll wait for the autobiography
5:50
I am Arsenal I'm a Muse fan I couldn't be more Basildon
5:55
I couldn't be more Essex I couldn't be more English I couldn't be more British
5:59
and then this Wally that's his word actually see you can do it when you try
6:03
then this Wally tries to undermine all of my identity based on racism that she's effing followed off you pop you effing tent peg
6:15
and i i woke up to that this morning i said i was reading this the first message i read i sorry lads but this one has really effing done me my entire ambition was to be England number one I only ever wore England goalie tops for every team
6:30
I played for. When I saw David James turn out for England, I got proper
6:34
emotional. I was like, yes, bruv, me next. And I don't think he'll
6:38
mind me telling you, he actually turned down schoolboy terms from Nottingham Forest when he was a kid
6:42
So, this is real. All these years later, a mixed race England team nearly gets over
6:48
the line and this former Home Secretary says, I ain't English. I will literally intellectually
6:55
devastate that woman's whole worldview. I will tell you, I will tell you who I am. You privileged
7:02
so and so. You don't tell me. And I read that this morning and I had in my ear the echo of
7:10
the conversation I had yesterday with Eleanor, my producer, about how sorry I feel for Suella
7:15
Braverman and I felt what did I feel I think I felt a bit ashamed
7:23
actually for having missed it so acutely having missed it so complete oh here she is the bearded lady
7:29
popping up on LBC again because clicks are everything I missed it I missed how gross
7:35
it is what she's doing how absolutely gross it is because hey I've got an apostrophe in my name
7:41
there's probably some people out there who think that means I'm not English
7:47
But it's not the same, is it? Because she's not really talking about white people
7:53
She's talking about people like Wayne, who's mixed race for the record, and of course she's talking about people like herself
8:00
So there was an extraordinary thing on Question Time where she almost addressed directly this racism
8:10
and said, categorically, I think, and I'll play you the clip now, that because she's brown, she can't be racist
8:16
That's the phone-in, by the way. Here's the little clip where she responds to an audience member
8:23
explaining that she is being racist against herself. What you've done is just basically reinforce the racist argument
8:32
I've been on this planet for 54 years and the amount of times I've been told I'm not English
8:37
even though I was born here, if I'd had a penny for every time I'd been given that..
8:42
And do you consider yourself English? Can I ask you? Absolutely. Absolutely
8:47
So what you've done is reinforce the argument. I'm being racist against myself
8:54
Basically. Right, well that makes a lot of sense. Basically you are. I'm not going to be racist against myself
8:58
Basically you are. I believe we can have a cohesive society that unites around British identity
9:04
If someone's going to call themselves English, I presume you've got an idea in mind as to what they would be
9:08
Obviously you take a reasonable approach, but my parents were not born in England. OK, but what would be the approach? My grandparents were not born in England
9:13
So in my particular instance, no, I am not of English origin
9:17
But I get what you're saying it isn't, but what is it? You have to take a view, obviously
9:21
What's your view? I'm not the one saying that it has to be five generations or four generations
9:28
I think it becomes pretty obvious when people have got a lineage, an ancestry
9:34
a connection to the heritage of this country which dates back a few future I don think I need particularly to over the pudding here Is she being racist against herself
9:45
And, of course, I want you to tell me, and I'm sorry that I haven't asked you before
9:50
and I'm sorry that I missed it when she was on earlier, on this radio station earlier this week
9:56
I'm sorry I missed it. The importance of asking you how you feel to be told by her
10:01
that you're not English. How does it make you feel? That man in the Question Time audience, by the way
10:07
was a black man, obviously, I think, but this is the radio
10:11
so I thought I'd better illustrate that for you. I find it, two things
10:17
I'm a bit self-indulgent to talk about how shocked I am that I missed this
10:22
but that's why I mention the tightrope, you see, because I want to ignore her
10:27
I managed to ignore her even when she was doing my own holiday cover, but she, you know, she's upset my mate
10:33
and that upsets me and I missed why I missed the depth of it
10:38
I missed the horror of this she is telling you that you're not English
10:42
she is telling Jude Bellingham that he is not English she is telling
10:46
half the England team that they are not English she's telling who isn't she telling
10:52
that they're not English and she says oh I can't be racist because I'm brown and that's where
10:56
I want to be careful about my white privilege my white privilege meant
11:02
I had a conversation yesterday about how sorry I feel for her and what a tragic figure she cuts instead of feeling sorry for all of the people that she has reduced to heartbroken fury like Wayne and many of you
11:17
That was my bad. And that's because I'm white. That's because I didn't see it through the lens of somebody else's experience or ethnicity
11:28
That's what today's show is for. What is it like to be told
11:32
by Suella Braverman, a former Home Secretary, because this is the other point I missed
11:37
It's a bit like Donald Trump, isn't it? You can't ignore him because he's president
11:42
What he says is imbued with the authority of all the previous holders of that office
11:48
So you can't ignore him. She is a former Home Secretary. She might be a disgusting and ridiculous woman
11:54
but she speaks with the authority of all the other holders of that office
12:00
probably including Winston Churchill. I could never quite remember what great offices of state he held, but there have been plenty
12:07
And she is telling you that you're not English. And I want to know how that feels
12:12
That's all. 0345 6060 973. I think it is a profoundly racist position that she holds
12:20
But I also want to know what you think about her argument that it can't be racist because she's brown
12:26
and that is where I can't really go any further because I don't really know that I should
12:33
or certainly that I have the qualifications to do so so that perhaps is where the echo of white privilege kicks in again
12:41
you can explain to me why she's right I can tell you I don't currently think that she is
12:49
but I'm white
news