‘What Andy Burnham needs to do now’ | James O’Brien - The Whole Show

0:00
A very good morning indeed to you
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Well, I think Darren Jones, sacked as Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister
0:11
yesterday is the first day out of the blocks, the first little bit of internal warfare
0:15
him accusing the government of announcing an unfunded tax cut with reference to that 5% cut in VAT
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It will come down from 5% to zero on the 1st of October, saving a typical household and mode..
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What is it, Keith? Modes, medians and means. Averages are a little bit complex
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more complex than we originally understand them to be when we first learned the word average
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There are three kinds of averages, modes, medians and means. There may be even four, but anyway, that's not the point
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The point is this, Darren Jones appears to be the first to go. Steve Reid yesterday sort of threw a little bit of shade
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at personnel, at people. Darren Jones, the first to have a swing at policy
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So, I don't know, if Andy Burnham really hoped for a period of unity and calm
1:07
he was probably being a little bit naive. £45. Do you know, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong
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but surely this is actually one of those, what is the rarest beast in British politics
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I don't mean people, I mean things. I mean phenomena. what is the rarest bit
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No, it's not a liberal talk show host, although that's pretty rare. Referendums are pretty rare
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but we've had a couple. I've had three, I think, in recent years, depending on what side of the English-Scottish border you live
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The Scottish-English border, even. What's the rarest beast in British politics? I'm going to confine it to the last decade
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The rarest beast in British politics, or British political life, even, of the last..
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Yes, you're absolutely correct. It is a Brexit benefit. Apart from my career, it's very hard to pin down
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In fact, some bloke called Ian Dale was reflecting upon the extraordinary boost
2:02
that Brexit gave to my career in an interview with City AM the other day
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Never heard of him, but he speaks an awful lot of sense, that chap. A Brexit benefit
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I don't think we could cut VAT, could we, when we were still in the European Union
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Cut VAT on fuel or indeed anything else from the rate at which it was
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You weren't allowed. I mean, I could be wrong. but I don't think you were allowed to lower it from where it was when you joined the single market
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And therefore, not being in the European Union actually frees up Andy Burnham
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and previous prime ministers who have also cut it, of course, to remove the final, the remaining 5% on VAT
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Now, David Blunkett was talking to Nick this morning, not least because, in fact, I think mainly because Andy Burnham had such warm words
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to say about David Blunkett during his first acceptance speech at the end of last week
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the speech he gave in the aftermath of Keir Starmer's resignation and the anointing of him as the new Labour leader
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although on Friday he wasn't yet Prime Minister. That happened yesterday. And Blunkett pointed out that £45 a year
3:13
is not going to make a great deal of difference, or indeed any difference at all to his life or his world
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but he acknowledged the existence or perhaps posited the existence of people for whom it would
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I was tempted to do a phone-in about whether or not £45 a year would make any difference to you
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And here's where my... I don't think it's arrogance, I hope it's not
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It's just simple luck and privilege kicks in because I find that almost impossible to imagine
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I find that almost impossible to imagine the idea that 45 pounds would make a measurable
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or a substantive difference to your life and I realised then maybe we should park the 45 pounds
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I think that is an interesting figure but it's not the one that I want to be at the heart of the conversation
4:05
that we are about to have I realised then that the massive
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massive majority, if not the complete, if not every single person who gets paid either to do politics or to pontificate about politics
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certainly on a national stage, there'll probably be some exceptions to this rule
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at local level, at council level. Almost everybody who either does politics or pontificates about politics
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myself very, very much included, is insulated from the sharper end of the cost of living crisis
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In fact, I nearly called it the so-called cost of living crisis. And I just found myself, sometimes I get a little thought in my head
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you know I do, and I can't get it out. And I haven't actually worked it up into a proper phone-in question
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but I've got enough faith in you to come with me on this sort of contemplation
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to believe that we'll have a question by the end of it
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Because I think it probably really matters. We took a call yesterday from a chap in Enfield
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I think he was in Enfield. I think it was Joe in Enfield. And he said a couple of things that really resonated with me
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Because we were having a brilliant phone-in, a perfectly interesting phone-in, a very good phone-in, actually
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But it was focused, and it took Joe's call for me to really pick up on this
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He had a particular point about property prices and, you know, not being able to get on the property ladder
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And we were talking about authenticity. I told you I was embarrassed a year or so ago
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beginning of this year at the very latest. I told you I was embarrassed when I told Eleanor
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the producer of this programme, that I thought it was actually going to be quite important
6:03
for the next Labour leader, which would almost certainly be the next Prime Minister, I thought Kistama was probably toast by this point
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And I said to her with a very straight face, I thought it was quite important that the next Labour leader had a Northern accent
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And that is such a shallow thing to say. It's, I mean, it's unforgivably shallow
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to suggest that the electorate are going to treat somebody differently according to not what they say, but how they say it
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And yet I wasn't just talking about the electorate, I was talking about myself as well
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I felt somehow that Keir Starmer, for all his obvious good intentions
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did not translate the reality of his positions into the perception. Yesterday, a lot of calls were pointing out that he was probably X, Y, and Z
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but he didn't seem to be X, Y, and Z, and that was a large part of the reason why he failed
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Whereas, I think the word authentic is probably the most obvious, persuasive, confident, Andy Pernam talks like a normal person
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It's been a long time since we had a politician or a party leader who talks like a really normal person
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And perhaps a little bit of latent snobbery or perhaps a little bit of privilege kicking in
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It just seems to me to be important. But that's style. And what the caller from Enfield pointed out was that it is style is not substance 45 quid is substance but it is actually also style isn it You know it is announcing if you like a priority 45 quid may not be a large sum of money
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but helping you with your energy bill has much more resonance than the money, than the figure
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So I'm wrestling, because not only am I presenting a programme today
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about, I think this question is about to turn into what is going to be most crucial to Andy Burnham's early success or failure
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And of course it can be substance or style, it can be policy or pronouncement
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it can be tactics, it can be things that he does or things that happen to him
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But if you want to book your place early on the switchboard, the question will be, what single thing do you think
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and I can put some ideas in front of you already, but I'd rather not
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What single thing do you think is going to be most important to Andy Burnham's early success or failure
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It could be something that we already know about. It could be something that's already happened. Or it could be something that may or may not be on the horizon
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But if you've got an answer to that question already, 03456060973 is the number that you need
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Because this curious blancmange that passes for my brain is really stuck at the moment on this issue
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Because I am unlikely to be directly affected. I think if my mortgage was coming up for renewal
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smack in the middle of the Liz Truss-Oper-lips, or whatever we're going to call it in the future
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then this would probably not hold quite as true as it does the rest of the time
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But I am unlikely to be profoundly affected. I suspect the most significant thing that could happen to me under an Andy Burnham premiership is that I am required to pay a little bit more tax, or I'm required to pay a mansion tax on my home, but that would already have happened if Keir Starmer had stayed in post
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So I don't have, I don't actually have much skin in the game, which is weird
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Listen, if I was more of a grown-up, if I was better at adulting, obviously I'd be watching my pension and watching my savings
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and seeing what impact Andy Burnham is going to have on those, and I need to be a little bit more like that as my 50s tick away
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and I start thinking about maybe hanging up the headphones one day. Obviously, I need to be more cognizant of my financial situation
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but as a relative, I mean as a lucky earner I am not, I don't have much skin in the game
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when it comes to the cost of living crisis and I'll tell you something else nor does a bloke who took 5 million quid
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from a foreign based billionaire in secret a couple of years ago shortly before announcing policies that would be of enormous benefit
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to the aforementioned foreign based billionaire I don't think Kemi Badenok has much skin in the cost
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I don't think anybody in parliament has much skin in the cost of living crisis
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They're not very exposed to it. So there is a danger that gobs on sticks like me
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and professional politicians sit here and say this matters, but they don't actually feel it in their bones
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And then I've got the crisis of confidence that was engendered during yesterday's phone-in
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when I start thinking, not so much my favourite quote at the moment
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not so much the are we the baddies line, But am I out of touch? Of course I'm out of touch
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It's why this job is so important to me. By the end of a phone-in, I can be back in touch
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But I begin a lot of these conversations out of touch. At least I'm honest about it
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Somebody takes 5 million quid in secret from a foreign-based billionaire and then pretends to either care about or understand the experiences
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of someone for whom 45 quid a year is going to make a measurable difference
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to their lifestyle is obviously much, much, much worse than someone who admits that he doesn't have much exposure
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to the cost of living crisis. So the thing that kicked in yesterday with that caller in Enfield
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was the fear. And I'll use that word advisedly, and I've got to write a column later
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and at the moment I was planning on writing it about this. But the fear that an awful lot of us who do this for a living
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and I'm going to include you in this, you help me do it for a living, you ring in
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We focus on the optics. We talk about the Ming vase all the time
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The Ming vase is a stylistic issue, not a substantive issue, right
12:02
The Ming vase is about being really, really careful not to upset anybody or drop anything
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before you actually get into Downing Street. The Ming vase has got nothing to do with policy
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It's got nothing to do with the economy. It's got nothing to do with the Middle East. It's got nothing to do with Gaza
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It's got nothing to do with energy bills. It's got nothing to do with defence or Russia or Ukraine or any of those things
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It's the Ming vase is a stylistic phenomenon. And I was blimmin' obsessed with it
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And I was not the only one. It's a byword, it appears again, in some of the coverage today
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But it's stylistic. We talk so much. Your first thought I had about Keir Starmer
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I'm embarrassed to tell you this, but I've told you before, so I can't undo it. He looked to me, when he first began to emerge into the political fray
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he looked to me like a man who spent too long in front of the mirror in the morning. And I just say that probably out of envy
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because he's got such lovely hair. But I just, I don't know why, there was something about the luxuriance of his quiff
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that made me think, well, there's a chap, and that's pathetic. I get paid for this
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Come on the radio and say, oh, I think he looks like a man who spends... If 45 quid was going to be the difference
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between me turning the heating on and not turning the heating on, I don't think, well, actually, no, I would be
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Because the party leading in the polls at the moment have no substance whatsoever
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they're all about style. And, I mean, largely bogus style, if we're honest about it
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So, that's what's underpinning my question. That's what's underpinning my thinking this morning
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And it's not actually the point of the phone-in. It's the context for this phone-in
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The difference between style and substance. And listen, you would have to be saintly
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to be unaffected by style. I don't know whether this is true or not
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but I'm pretty sure my A-level politics teacher told me that Harold Wilson used to clamp his pipe in his mouth
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when the camera came on so this goes back to the days when broadcasts were almost all live
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and if they were taking a live hit of the Prime Minister or a campaigning politician during the news
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during the 9 o'clock news on the BBC then the speaker would be in the middle
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So Harold Wilson might be at the Shipley Working Men's Club delivering a speech, and then there'd be someone in the court
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the camera would be there, and then they'd do a countdown, and he'd break off from the speech he was delivering
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from the good burgers of Shipley, clamp his pipe in his mouth
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and then they'd deliver straight down the barrel, eight seconds of pre-prepared rhetoric
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and then the camera would be turned off again, and he'd go back, take the pipe out of his mouth
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and he'd go back to delivering his speech. That's not a criticism, that's how it works
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optics are important. It's unlikely Winston Churchill would have become Prime Minister
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in the television age. Nigel Farage always has a pint pot in his hand when there a photographer around As soon as the photographer disappears he sending someone down to the wine cellar to bring up a bottle of Lafitte So style versus substance and this dichotomy the answer
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going to be both, right? Style matters. If you're pretending that style doesn't matter
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or if you're arguing that style doesn't matter, I think you're unreasonable. I think you're
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unreal. I think you're inauthentic. So the question becomes, I mean, this is about people
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who can't go on holiday, people who can't not just buy a house, but they can't buy a car, or they
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can't buy dinner, they can't take the children away. You're talking about people who are really
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at the sharp end of the cost of living crisis, despite working, despite playing by the rules
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despite keeping up their end of the bargain. I sit here talking about Ming Vases and Northern
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Accents. I am not speaking to you, and I'm not speaking about you. But we're both right. The
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Northern accent matters. The cost of living Christ, it all matters. So what do you think matters most
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Style or substance, or like the £45 on energy bills, a combination of both
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What do you think is most intrinsic or will be most intrinsic
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to Andy Burnham's early success or failure? What do you think is most intrinsic
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will be most intrinsic to our... And listen, as ever, when we do politics on the programme
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you can be micro or macro. So for you, it's one single thing
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Particularly, perhaps, if you voted Labour a couple of years ago, but Keir Starmer managed to lose your vote
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he managed to lose your support, you gravitated towards the Greens, perhaps
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or you just gravitated away from Labour. What single thing would bring you back into the fold
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It would involve, I imagine, an undoing of something that Keir Starmer did
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or the doing of something that Keir Starmer didn't do. So on the micro, on the very personal subjective level
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what would work for you? What would be most intrinsic to Andy Burnham's early success or failure
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And then, of course, you've got the macro. So the question of, on a national policy-based level, style or substance
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how he treats Donald Trump, what he does with this or that or the other, what single thing do you think is going to be most important to
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the most important aspect of Andy Burnham's early success or failure? Hit the numbers now. You will get through
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0345 6060 973 is the number you need. It's 1021. James O'Brien on LBC
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Three minutes after 10 is the time. The first thing you can remember Keir Starmer doing
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is making energy bills more expensive for pensioners. The first thing you will remember Andy Burnham doing
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is making everybody's energy bills smaller. Do the numbers matter? Well, yes, if you're here for the substance
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No, if you're here for the style. Most of us are here for a little bit of both. So what are you going to put on the list
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And I like making a list. I'm turning into Santa Claus. What is, for you, the thing that will matter most
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to Andy Burnham's early success or failure? Neil and James up first
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I just want to tell you something funny. Well, I think it's funny. You know when it's a new year and you forget
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and you keep calling it the old year? It doesn't really matter anymore since checkbooks disappeared
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But when you wrote your check on the 2nd of January or something and you'd always put the old year on
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you'd write 2025 even though it would become 2026. I get that with Prime Ministers
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So you might notice in the course of this morning that I get them the wrong way round. I already have a couple of times, almost
18:42
said Kia when I meant Andy and Andy when I meant Kia. So think of it as a verbal tick or as a memory glitch akin to knowing that we are in a new year
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but also at the same time somehow not knowing that we are in a new year. Keir Starmer is no longer Prime Minister. Andy Burnham is
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What single thing will most, in your view, determine the early success or failure of the latter character
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Neil's in Rushcliffe in Nottingham. Neil, what would you like to say? Morning, James
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My take on this, and I'm talking as somebody who has got skin in the game, but not as much as I used to in the sense that I'm now retired
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But I think you need a brave, honest, unifying or potentially unifying theme
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And the one that I would go for and the way that I would phrase it would be that I think that we, when I say we, I'm talking about middle age and above and certainly consecutive governments
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We have betrayed the young people's covenant in this country. we have made it significantly harder for all aspects of their life compared to what we were
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by and large fortunate enough to enjoy whether it's jobs whether it's housing whether it's
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education and i suspect there's probably a growing number of people in this country who
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as well as people that you've pointed out individually who are suffering um who feel that
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that is unfair and that in fact when you address some of the other bigger issues that need addressing
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And if they were addressed through this prism, if you like, they might be more successful
20:11
So if we think about the typical lock, if we think about welfare reform, you know, there are a number of people there who probably hand on heart, myself included, can see that, in effect, we do need to pay a bit more
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We need to be more flexible about where we're up to. but would we feel good about that
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knowing that the money is going to disappear into a pot and there will be no
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accountability as opposed to actually definitely going towards something that is important to so many young people, the future
20:37
of this country. You're already undermining your own argument aren't you in a way. Well no, only in
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the sense that as soon as they announce it the critics, whether they're doing
20:47
it honestly or not, will come out and argue that any money raised from doing this
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any money raised from abolishing the triple lock, any money raised from raising taxes on people like you
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and possibly people like me, that's just all going to be wasted on the unemployed and the immigrants
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And it doesn't need to be true to be effective. Well, maybe that's down to how politics is done
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and the way the message is sold. So that's style. Well, maybe style, yes
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But ultimately, I guess it's this element of trust, isn't it? Do we trust that that is what's going to happen
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as opposed to what maybe has tended to happen in the past? So a massive focus on younger generations
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Yes. Well, I think that if you look forward as well, the fact is they are the future of this country
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Treat them well and let them show the way, Neil. Treat them well and let them show the way. Exactly
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But you're also upending the last, I mean, almost the post-war consensus
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certainly the post-1980 consensus in UK politics, which is that you've got to look after the pensioners
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because they're by far the most likely demographic to vote. You've got to look after the pensioners
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but you've got to look after, first and foremost, the ones that can't look after themselves. It doesn't mean you've got to look after all the ones that clearly can
22:00
And there we start looking at means testing and triple locks and things like that as a way of raising money
22:05
rather than constantly paring back the welfare budget. I mean, because I like this, and I mean this as a compliment
22:14
I think you might be a little bit nicer than an awful lot of people in your own economic and social situation
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you might be a little bit kinder. I still hear claims that young people these days can afford houses because they spend too much money on avocado on toast and Netflix subscriptions You clearly much more attuned with the reality of it but that where you start is it
22:36
With pensions, with triple lots, and then how do you direct that money
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to the people you're trying to help? What does that look like? I mean, I'm asking you to do John Healy's job
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before John Healy started doing it, but what would that look like? Yeah, well, I've not necessarily given that much thought to it
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But I think some of these things need to be simple ideas
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So, for instance, why don't, I'm not throwing this out off the top of my head
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but what about some sort of pot of money or fund for people of a certain age
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What about addressing the balance on something like education? I mean, I'm a boomer
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I'm one of the people who was fortunate enough to have free university education
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who was able to be offered, in effect, a selection of jobs with a pension entitlement
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You know, and I'm realistic and objective enough to be able to look at that and say, well, that's just unfair for the kids that are coming up these days
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Where did we lose sight of the fact that their future is somewhat worse than that
23:31
Why don't we give them a pot for education so that they can actually start to make their own way in whatever way works for them
23:38
I mean, you'd think that somebody just invented apprenticeships the way we talk about it
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Yes, you would. You know, 30 years ago they were talking about we need more apprenticeships
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and here we are again having the same conversation 30 years later and somebody's just realised that maybe more vocational training might be a good idea
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I mean, it's pathetic the way that we not only take our eye off the ball
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but the superficiality of the level of debate and thought on these issues
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Why not give them a pot of money and they can spend it on their education as they see fit
24:07
If they want to go and get work-based training, spend it on that. If they want to put it towards university, spend it on that
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if you want to start a business with it, spend it on that. And it's not confined to needs either
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It is, you know, because that's a large part of the conversation is dedicated to the one million people
24:22
Between the ages of 16 to 25 who aren't currently doing anything, this would be to the benefit of everybody in a generation that
24:28
as you describe it, Neil, and I can't really argue, the only bit I'd quibble with on your ysis is whether
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quotes, we, end quotes, did it to them, or whether it has happened to them as a consequence
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of things that we certainly haven't necessarily contributed to and over which we have little or no control
24:43
But, you know, that massive shift from you've got to look after the pensioners
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to you've got to look after the next generation. You've got to look after the younger generations
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That could be, I mean, that really could be a premiership, a prime minister-defining shift
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And you can't argue with the logic of Neil's position, but you can argue, of course, with the optics
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The substance of it is sound. It makes perfect economic and social sense
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But the style of it, not necessarily so. because you potentially alienate the members of this population
25:14
who are most likely to vote. And it won't be for you if you've taken something away from them
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unless they are as kind-hearted and as clued up as Neil. Half past ten is the time. Dominic Ellis has your headlines
25:26
James O'Brien on LBC. Three minutes after ten is the time. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
25:35
I will read out some texts. I mean, you send in lists of the things that you want Burnham to do
25:39
all you things that you think is successful rely upon. But I do prefer a phone call
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because I think, as Neil demonstrated perfectly, then we can sort of chew over your suggestions together
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rather than just sticking them up on the board and either booing or saluting
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I'm asking you what you think will be most intrinsic to Andy Burnham's early success or failure
26:00
And I've tried to both acknowledge the problem of having people like me
26:06
conducting uh you know big conversations big national conversations about issues like this
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when we are entirely insulated from for example the sharpest ends most ends most elements of the
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cost of living crisis which is why i'm looking at style and substance i'll give you a great example
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yeah i mean this is both a phone-in and an example it's not going to be the phone-in today
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but it's part of this one in a way. I think it's really important for the government
26:36
to come off Elon Musk's social media platform. Lisa Nandy did so
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Lord Hermer did so. He's no longer in government. Lisa Nandy is. Quite weird for the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport
26:49
to make an autonomous decision to do something like that when they're actually in charge of the whole business
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But I think that's really important. I think that Twitter has become a sewer where racism and misogyny and AI-generated images of child sexual abuse
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and other horrors, utter, utter horrors, have become entirely commonplace, have become utterly normal
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And you know from even a cursory examination of Elon Musk, who he is and what he represents and stands for
27:17
that it is not an accident, it is not a coincidence. So to continue to treat them
27:22
or to continue to treat the platform like a marketplace rather than a publisher is dangerous and absurd
27:30
But if I... If 45 quid a year was going to be the difference
27:35
between me turning on the heating come next December and not turning it on
27:40
would I really give a monkeys about whether or not the government are making announcements
27:44
about that 45 quid on Twitter or on this radio program or on Blue Sky or Threads or Facebook
27:50
Would I? Would I care? Probably not. Should I care? Yes. because the pollution of our discourse
27:56
the pollution of our democracy, is deeply, deeply dangerous. But for a Prime Minister to come out and announce it
28:03
when you're more worried about not being able to afford a house, a holiday or dinner tomorrow
28:08
I don't know. You see what I mean about the difference? Would that be substance or style or both
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And would it matter? So I could sit here and say, he's got to get a grip on the social media platforms
28:17
And I would mean it. But if you were in that 45 quid category
28:22
would you agree? James is in Leeds. James, what would you like to say? Hello, James
28:26
Well, I want to say that I think that style and substance
28:32
should be really intertwined. And I think one of the problems, well, the big problem that Starmer had
28:41
the substance was there. He was doing it. You'd listed it before. But he didn't actually give it anything
28:48
You know, he didn't create a vibe. Now, you can't have vibes without substance, of course
28:53
but... Oh, you can. You can, you can, you can. You might not want them
28:57
but you certainly can. Not successfully. You can wait for the... be sure that
29:01
the cameras are rolling before you lay a wreath in memory. You can literally be filmed waiting
29:06
to be sure that the cameras are rolling before you lay a wreath in
29:10
memorial of an honoured colleague. That is prioritised. That's all vibes, no substance
29:16
Yes. But when you're actually in power and responsible for creating the substance
29:21
you know, the people that I think you were referring to have never ever had to do anything about substance. They've never been in power
29:28
Anyway, I think that the key to this, and it's a phrase I just came across last week
29:35
is social patriotism. And I think that if Andy Burnham can, he's trying this already
29:43
if he can manage to create a sense of pride and patriotism, but around things that actually
29:53
to improve people's lives instead of flag-waving and all of that. That would be nice. That really would be nice
29:59
Absolutely and I think, well I hope it can be done. Look at how high the NHS is as a priority
30:08
It's something that the British people would like to feel pride in and they do feel pride in it
30:15
but not when it's underfunded, not when it isn't working. So there's an example of style and
30:20
substance being hopefully intertwined. Yes, yeah because patriotism is a perfect example of what
30:28
you're talking about because sticking tatty flags up all over the place despite the fact that the
30:33
people who live there don't want you to it can be masqueraded as patriotism that's 100 style with
30:39
zero substance and it's extraordinary how many of these people since they came to public prominence
30:44
have turned out to be wrongans uh extraordinary but not of course remotely surprising whereas
30:48
if we can actually get some flesh on these bones social patriotism looking after people
30:53
rather than decorating lampposts, then you've got a completely, you've got a substantive proposition
30:59
which also has vibes, it has style, because we want to love our country
31:03
He tried that, didn't he? I liked that bit in his speech on Friday when he was at great pains to stress
31:09
how he loves all parts of the country. And it could have sounded trite or glib
31:13
and of course it will have done to some people, James, but it didn't to me because I know what he means
31:17
He doesn't want to seem like someone who doesn't know what it's like north of the Watford Gap
31:22
or doesn't know what it's like in Scotland or in Wales or in Cornwall
31:26
He wants to be a prime minister for an entire country. They all do, but he is at pains to stress that he does
31:32
The problem is, NHS aside, what does social patriotism actually look like
31:39
What does it mean? Well, I think one thing could be looking after the poorest and the weakest in our society
31:48
And the two first policies that he's announced have been signaling precisely that
31:56
So, you know, £45 a year, if you look at it like that, is not
32:02
you know, for many people it's almost insignificant. But it's signaling, it's indicating
32:08
that he knows people are worried about that and he's immediately going to do something
32:14
And also helping the homeless. Good luck to him because last time I went
32:20
to Manchester, I did see quite a lot of people. I think it's a conversation that we're probably going to move
32:26
on to a little bit later in the programme. And the problem again, and I did this with Neil
32:30
in Rushcliffe, and I don't want to be a party pooper, but the problem
32:34
again is that looking after the needy and the vulnerable is very
32:38
quickly undone by all the usual suspects who would claim that they're undeserving
32:42
that they're swinging the lead, they're malingering fakers and they don't deserve any help at all, and they're getting
32:46
far too much already. I agree. I agree. I think he's done that as a direction of travel, I think, to contrast himself, hopefully, from the people who are just worried about what happens to the highest tax rate
33:04
That matters as well. Yes, of course. Well, I think he's maybe, hopefully, shifting a balance
33:10
because basically for the past, well, I would say, you could say since the 1980s, but certainly since the 2010s
33:18
the economics of the country have been defined purely by big numbers
33:24
and things that have vastly benefited. Not normal people. That's very well put
33:29
So we've got young people, we've got social patriotism, and we've got a kind of, I mean, both of those things would work together
33:36
to create something better than what we currently have. Whether or not he can sell them will, of course
33:40
depend as much on style as it does on substance. Great stuff, James. How near Shipley are you
33:47
Near enough. I need to issue a correction. Apparently there is no working men's club in Shipley anymore
33:53
so, I mean, there might have been when Harold Wilson was giving his speeches, but I'm going to change it
33:58
Do you pronounce Idle? Idle, yeah. Near Bradford? It's just pronounced Idle, is it
34:05
Yeah. Right, well, I'm going to go with Idol rather than Shipley on this occasion. James, thank you for not just your contribution
34:10
but also your help with my Yorkshire geography. It's 10.42. I don't know if this is from the same Joe that rang in yesterday
34:16
and gave me genuine pause for thought when he pointed out that we were all talking about style
34:22
But he goes, I think it is him, because he's not exactly backwards in coming forwards, is he
34:27
I think even when you're trying to qualify your out-of-touchness, you're still slightly missing the point
34:31
Oh, for heaven, what's the point in even trying to meet you? people halfway, I can't win, can I
34:37
The VAT relief isn't about changing anyone's lifestyle. It's about people who can't go on holiday
34:42
anymore or buy a nicer car. It might get you a takeaway a year if you're
34:46
lucky, but it's breathing space. It's 5% of your bill that you no longer have to find
34:54
He's done it again if it is the same bloke. He's right, isn't he? It's unlikely to be extra spending
34:59
money for the people that it helps the most. It's a break from forking out
35:03
and that's incredibly important. to people. So there, again, is the divide
35:07
between people who've got skin in the game and people who haven't. So you say to
35:10
me 45 quid a year, and I immediately think, what the heck am I going to spend that on? Wouldn't even get me a Deliveroo if the girls
35:16
were at home. But say 45 quid a year to somebody else
35:20
and it's just, that's 45 quid I don't have to find. If you're 30 P. Lee, that's 150 meals
35:27
So I imagine that he'd have been cock-a-hoop about this earlier today
35:30
when he was touring the studios of the nation and contributing to our gaiety in an extraordinary fashion
35:37
But I imagine he'd be cock of the hoop about this, because 45 quid a year, that is 150 meals
35:43
if you can make a meal for 30p. So imagine that. Imagine Andy Burnham helping you to 150 meals
35:51
That's almost half a year of meals per day. And I imagine if he's got, obviously, a scintilla of honesty
36:00
he would have been praising this particular policy to the hill while middle-class clichés like me miss it
36:06
because we think 45 quid, as Joe points out, it might be a takeaway if you're lucky
36:11
But it's not. It's not having to find it. It's not what I'm going to... This is why Blunkett..
36:15
I think this is what Blunkett was trying to say when he was on with Nick Ferrari earlier. You've got calls in, you've got texts
36:21
£45 might be... £45 wouldn't change my life... No. ...the next six months at all
36:27
But there are people out there listening whose lives will be beneficially affected
36:31
they might be able to actually put the cooker on or put the heating on in November and December
36:37
who might not have been able to do so. I think it's sanguine. I always nip myself when I'm talking about, you know, my early days when I was genuinely poor
36:48
And I have to put myself back there now because I'm not. And I have to think, what was it like when my mother couldn't put food on the table and she couldn't
36:58
James O'Brien on LBC. Oh man, I'll regret this but it is quite exciting at the moment
37:05
it's tearing stuff up I think it was mildly exciting when Starmer got in
37:09
because it meant that the nightmare was over that ludicrous national crisis
37:16
in which we managed to vote for Brexit and Boris Johnson put Liz Truss in Downing Street
37:20
and then end up with the very managerial and quite spectacularly out of touch but perfectly pleasant I think Rishi Sunak It that ludicrous national fever dream that started really in 2016 and still isn over won be over for a generation
37:38
So, Starmer delivered that. In some ways, he acknowledged that in his own valedictory speech
37:45
yesterday, and that my work here is done. He made the Labour Party electable again
37:49
which, trust me, four years ago would have been absolutely inconceivable. and he secured a landslide victory
37:56
albeit a loveless landslide. And then he turned out not to be very good at being Prime Minister
38:01
And I know that still upsets an awful lot of people and I feel your pain, but I'm afraid that I don't share a single scintilla of it
38:09
He was not very good at the politics, not very good as Prime Minister. To everybody's, I don't know, surprise and disappointment
38:18
Andy Burnham has come in and started ripping things up, either metaphorically or actually
38:22
He's not coming in to carry on with little tinkerings at the side as he did before
38:28
Maybe Starmer wanted to. Maybe the winter fuel allowance was something that could have been massive and game-changing
38:35
And it certainly would have involved tearing something up. But then they untow it, if that was a thing
38:41
I think you need to be dynamo to un-tear things. I don't know how you put back together things that have been rent asunder
38:48
But there is something quite exciting about this. And I'm going to play you the clip
38:54
I don't think I'll play it now because I want to carry on with politics into the next hour
38:58
I only played you one clip of Andy Burnham yesterday from when we sat down for an hour on Full Disclosure back in 2022
39:06
And I'd forgotten that there was plenty. I should have spotted it at the time, actually
39:11
There was loads in that interview that pointed to his ambition. Eleanor spotted yesterday a sort of physical moment
39:17
when we were talking about prime ministers and it wasn't quite a wink, was it
39:22
But it was on the same graph as a wink Knowing he was being filmed
39:27
I'm not suggesting it was secret or surreptitious or anything like that but he's clearly had this in mind
39:31
for the longest time despite having lost to first Ed Miliband and then Jeremy Corbyn in Labour leadership elections
39:39
he's clearly never taken his eye off the ultimate prize The ultimate prize is, of course, not Labour leader, it's Prime Minister
39:47
And that is, of course, the luck that he has at the moment
39:53
And by becoming Labour leader, he has also become Prime Minister. So the bit I played you yesterday, I thought was emotional
39:58
about imposter syndrome and finally knowing who he is. The bit I'm going to play you in the next part of the programme
40:05
is essentially what he is, politically speaking, what he has become and where he is coming from
40:12
And there's a little bit towards the end of the clip that I'll play you where he says something that out of context could be very easily mocked
40:20
Out of context, it could be very easily mocked. A cap on bus fares, he said, makes me happier
40:27
more than people here can understand. I don't know what he meant by here
40:32
I think that he probably meant Milbank, which is where we were recording the interview
40:40
which is, of course, at the very heart of Westminster. We weren't in Leicester Square
40:44
We were in the studio, in the building that I was in yesterday. People here, he didn't mean London
40:49
There's plenty of people in London who... I just sounded a bit Coronation Street there
40:53
London! There's plenty of people in London. London! There's plenty of people in London who would know what a cap on the bus fare means
41:02
Joe summed it up brilliantly, didn't he? They're saying it's not about what you'd spend the money on
41:06
it's the fact that you don't have to find it. I don't want to get too hung up on that
41:11
because it makes me sound a bit pathetic, I think, and a bit patronising, but that, for me, intellectually, is a huge moment
41:17
That just suddenly made sense of things that I've been struggling with all morning. And it's not about what you'd spend the money on
41:23
although 30p Lee, of course, should be celebrating the fact that this is 150 meals
41:27
that the average family will now be able to afford that they couldn't previously afford
41:32
150 meals a year, but it's not about that. it's about the fact that they don't have to find it
41:37
Let me show you what I mean. Wendy points out, for me, it's £45 worth
41:43
two months worth of hot water in the summer and one month's worth in winter
41:48
Kate says, for the people I work with, it's a top-up shop for some weekend treats
41:53
versus, as in she works with both of these people, an entire family food budget for a week
41:59
It's the money you don't have to find. And Mikey points out that it's three months worth of the TV licence
42:04
One of the funniest things that's happened this week after that advert for the BBC appeared during the football
42:09
is that all of the people who are constantly attacking the BBC have suddenly gone, why is the BBC defending itself
42:14
Why is the BBC trying to justify its existence, brackets, when we spend our entire working lives in the pay of Rupert Murdoch
42:20
attacking the BBC and claiming that it shouldn't exist at all, close brackets
42:24
They just think you're so stupid, these people. Of course the BBC has to advertise and justify its existence
42:30
even more so than ever, in a world where these tanks are being parked on their lawns by billionaires
42:35
who hate the idea of you getting so much for so little without making them richer in the process
42:42
10.54 is the time. Back to the phones. What does he have to do? Style versus substance
42:46
Policy versus personality. In order to enjoy early and, I think, hopefully lasting success
42:53
Ron's in Maidstone. Ron, what do you think? Good morning, James. Hello, Ron
42:57
What do I think? It's a very complex subject, but I think he's made a good start
43:02
and style and substance are both important. But for the long term, you need substance
43:09
For the short term, you might need a bit of style, and I think he's coming with probably a more approachable
43:15
and appropriate style than Starmer had. In what ways? Just pinpoint, I agree with you
43:21
but I want to hear it in your words. What is it that he does differently
43:26
Well, he does seem more authentic. Stalmer seemed to me to be a bit of a poser, really
43:34
and he was acceptable to perhaps a wider audience than some of previous Labour leaders
43:43
so he presented himself as being... It was almost incredible to me that this man is representing the Labour Party
43:52
given the cabinet he has got and given the views of many of the extreme left
43:56
Well, he didn't like centrists. and he didn't like liberals, and he seemed to be
44:02
well, that's how he came across, and he seemed to be chasing voters that had moved across to reform
44:08
Andy Burnham managed to win back tons of voters in Makerfield that had previously moved across to reform
44:13
but without mentioning immigration. Yeah, exactly. And I think they made a mistake of seeing the threats of reform
44:21
and focusing their attention on them. Well, I do as well. I mean, we could both be proved horribly wrong in the meantime
44:27
What would substance mean then? So what do you think? Substance means policies that are fair and reasonable
44:33
Yeah, like what, though, mate? Like what? Well, you mentioned means testing earlier on
44:39
I'd be very happy with means testing because, you know, I know that I can afford some of the things which I'm being gifted
44:46
Yes. And I think many people in that boat, certainly people that I associate with
44:51
say, well, why am I getting this benefit and this benefit? I don really need it but there can be much about it because they have to go through ahead of a lot of No it a bit like people saying why don you pay more tax voluntarily To which you know the natural response is you completely understand the purpose of taxation
45:07
It has to be universal to work. The problem is, many people would argue that a benefit has to be universal to work as well
45:13
And means testing is the opposite of universality. I mean, it's going to be about pairing
45:18
It's going to be about where you find a few quid, isn't it? Pairing with no I, or rather with one I. P-A-R-I-N-G
45:27
Where are you going to save money that you want to spend
45:31
on more beneficial and helpful areas? And, you know, it's welfare, usually
45:36
It's taxes, which means taking money from people who've got a bit
45:41
but don't think that they have. That, of course, is the political problem of the ages. And there's that hardy perennial of claiming that we can save a ton of money
45:49
by deporting immigrants or stopping refugees from coming here. I don't know whether or not Andy Burnham has the answer
45:58
to defusing populism, but I think on my list of things he needs to do
46:04
that would be fairly near the top. Thank you, Ron. Sean's in Birmingham. Sean, what would you like to say
46:09
Hello, James. Hope you're well. I'm very well. How are you? Yeah, I'm good
46:13
I'm definitely thinking he's got the style. He already has the sort of style that's needed
46:19
that has been massively missing. So I think he really needs to focus on substance
46:23
We've got less than three years till the latest dates for the next general election
46:28
So I think what people need to see, or more importantly feel
46:32
people need to feel better off. I think we've spoken about this before in relation to Starmer
46:37
But for me now, I think he needs to put intertwined style and substance
46:43
You know, he's been saying he's going to end neoliberalism, end trickle-down economics
46:47
We need the policies to back that up. And I think he's starting to be fair with what he's mentioned about rough sleeping already
46:55
what he's going to do with the £45 off the bills. But I think it is for wider society so that it's what Jeremy Corbyn said
47:04
that's for the many, not the few. People need to feel the change in their pocket in talking about tax thresholds
47:10
and perhaps making the burden easier for people there as well. and I think it's about rebalancing the scales
47:19
and being really clear that he's doing that. So whether that's going to be a wealth tax exit tax down the line
47:25
capital gains tax in line with income tax sooner. You've done this before
47:29
You've just guessed. I mean, I was about to ask a question. You started answering it before I got it out
47:34
because I was literally about to say, where's that money going to come from? And here you are telling me
47:38
And it's going to come from, not to put too fine a point on it, people like me. Yes, very much so
47:44
Unfortunately. Well, that's patriotism. I'm fine with that. Exactly. And I think it's also in communication, it's not about an attack on wealth
47:54
It is about making sure that everyone feels the benefits of what us as a society have
47:59
I mean, we're such a rich country. But I think the big thing we feel as well, and these for me are the three simple fixes
48:06
and I don't know if it's a bit Birmingham specific, but, you know, rough sleeping and what you've mentioned there
48:11
If people walk to the shops and see less people sleeping rough, that is immediately something that has changed in their area
48:17
I mean, obviously, it will be amazing what it does for people if it is able to achieve that nationally
48:22
But as well, it's that wider societal view of, oh, actually, my high street isn't declining
48:27
My high street's improving. And I think on top of that, potholes fly-tipping
48:32
that's where it gets, Birmingham specific. But, you know, all around us, all around the country
48:36
we're seeing decline there as well. You know, the bins being missed, these sorts of things
48:41
If he can put the money into that, because in a government spending point of view
48:45
it's pennies to put a decent chunk of money into that to make that big change early on
48:52
If he can start the ball rolling with those things saying, I'm here for you
48:56
we're doing these policies, you can see them. I think people will listen more because we spoke a lot with Starmer about..
49:02
What's point three? Oh, no, that was fly-tipping. So potholes and fly-tipping, we were separating them out
49:08
Oh, fly-tipping is separate from potholes. All right, just checking. Sorry. So it's those immediate things that people see
49:16
and I think once people, I think especially if he does it early enough, people that aren't as politically engaged say
49:22
oh, we've got a new prime minister. Oh, that's getting sorted. And people start paying attention
49:27
People remember how you make them feel more than they remember anything else. It's why a drama about the post office scandal
49:32
will reach parts that the finest journalism in history about the post office scandal just can't reach
49:39
because it's about how things make you feel. And drama makes you feel things that journalism very, very rarely can
49:46
Thanks to callers like Sean, of course, this kind of journalism can make you feel things and frequently does
49:51
But what does... And I like that. But, I mean, the question I would ask if that music wasn't playing in the background is
49:57
do these things, rough sleeping, potholes, fly-tipping, whatever your favourite little thing would be to put on that big list
50:03
do they actually change the feelings of people who can't turn the heating on
50:11
of people who are trying to make a meal for 30p a day
50:15
spoiler alert you can't really are those things going to change the feelings and the thought processes of those people
50:24
more on this coming up five minutes after 11 is the time
50:30
this is a rather funny observation to summarise yesterday evening Mr. Ben is out of the cabinet
50:37
Mr. Healy has returned to the cabinet and Mr. Kinnock has joined the cabinet for the first time
50:41
isn't that lovely that's incredible John Healy is not to the best of my knowledge
50:47
remotely related to Dennis Healy the former Chancellor but Hillary Ben is very much the son of Tony Ben
50:52
and Stephen Kinnock is very much the son of Neil so that's quite funny isn't it
50:59
I like that kind of thing and I thought you might as well
51:04
It's six minutes after 11. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. That little list there from Sean in Birmingham
51:10
resonates with quite a lot of people. Dan says, there's a long list of cheap things to do
51:15
but cheap but very visible things. Potholes, bins, graffiti. If Burnham does deal with those
51:20
it will put him in a lot of credit with the nation. Successive governments seem to have underestimated
51:24
how much credit doing these small things would buy them. And, I mean, it is not the obvious answer to the question I started the show asking
51:34
but that's the beauty of the time that we spend together every day. The best answers are not the obvious ones
51:40
And this is nice from Ian. £45 a year won't make any difference to me, fortunately
51:45
but if when you heard the news your mood lifted even a little bit, then it has made a difference and it does matter
51:52
A night at the pictures that you currently can't do, school shoes for the kids, one night's better sleep
51:57
it doesn't matter what it is. It's the difference, as Joe pointed out, between, and I know how much danger I am in of sounding aloof or patronizing or condescending when I have conversations like this, but all I can do is my best not to
52:11
It's the difference not between what would I spend the money on, but the fact that you no longer have to find it
52:19
That's why bus fares matter. I mean, bus fares are one of the things that you have to find every day
52:24
I know these days it on a card and things like that but you know it is probably why he raised bus fares when I sat down and spoke to him four years ago for my Full Disclosure series
52:36
And I want to, before we get back to the question of what he needs to do, what he needs to happen
52:43
in order to enjoy early success, and from early success comes longer success
52:50
I want you to hear a little bit more about him and who he is. I suspect he might be a bit more guarded than this moving forward
52:59
It was a nice interview. One of the best interviews I think I've done with a politician
53:04
partly because he was in Westminster and not in Westminster, both metaphorically and literally
53:11
He was in Westminster, geographically speaking, when we did this interview, but also not in Westminster
53:17
because he wasn't a member of Westminster. So he was both in Westminster and not in Westminster
53:22
and now he's up to his ears in Westminster. So I'm not sure that he will speak..
53:26
Well, maybe he will. We'll find out, won't we? Anyway, here it is. It's a fairly long clip, so stick with us
53:31
It's just under five minutes long, but I think it gives you a really clear idea
53:35
of what some of the things we've already been talking about regarding Andy Burnham
53:41
both of where they come from and what they mean. If there's one thing that defines me
53:46
it is about these two Englands that I'm trying to sort of, you know, change
53:50
You know, why don't we get the same opportunities in my part of the world as are often taken for granted in London and the southeast
53:59
Why does an English city have to cry injustice for 20 years before anyone listens to it
54:07
You know, these things motivate me. And I kind of feel that, you know, the system was not going to change within
54:14
And so therefore, I tried to be leader twice. And therefore, you know, I thought, well, how can I now build what I believe in
54:20
And I think what we've built through the mayoral roles in Liverpool, Manchester, has started to kind of change a bit the landscape of British politics
54:30
And in a sense, the bogus levelling up agenda was an attempt to steal your lunch, I suppose
54:38
Yeah, I mean, at first it sounded like it was, you know, trying to put wind in our sails
54:42
But, you know, the pandemic experience sort of blew that apart, didn't it
54:47
where, you know, they were trying to kind of railroad us into tier three by giving..
54:52
Another moment when you sort of left the reservation. I absolutely was way off it by that point
54:59
I mean, yeah, but it was people always down here, and, you know, Rhys Mogg kind of made this big thing about it
55:05
It was pure acting and grandstanding. I can't remember what he actually said, something like that. They misread..
55:11
I mean, Westminster... I don't think people down here ever understood me because they misread what I'm kind of about, really
55:16
I'm not always playing those games as they were in the Cambridge Union
55:20
I'm not doing that. I will generally speak as I find, and where the government has done the right thing, I'll say so
55:29
But when there's a point of principle, i.e. you're not treating people in Greater Manchester equally
55:34
as you would people in London, then I will use what political skill I've got
55:39
to make my voice heard as loudly as I can. And that's what I did
55:44
But then the world down here immediately said, oh, God, these mayors are just troublesome
55:48
and we'll get rid of them and all the rest of it. And is that the loudest your voice will get now
55:53
Mayor of Greater Manchester? Well, I'm just going to answer this honestly
55:58
because I've gone on the days where I talk in code, so I'm not making any plans for any sort of immediate return
56:04
I've talked about doing a full second term in Greater Manchester, but I've not ruled out one day coming back
56:09
because there is part of me still that says, how does this country start to work for everybody everywhere
56:15
It doesn't work for everybody everywhere. Those kids I went to school with never, ever got anything like the opportunities
56:21
that the people I was at university with. So how does it
56:25
And I think, for me, where I've come to on my political journey
56:28
is that you've got to rewire Britain, basically. You've got to rewire Parliament and then the political system beyond it
56:35
if you are ever to make this place somewhere that works for everybody everywhere
56:41
So for me, you know, I have now come round to the idea of proportional representation for the Commons because I think the whip system and the first past the post and the whip system actually empowers a small number of people in this postcode that you and I are talking in now
56:57
It does, you know, it hands power to about 50 people in and around Downing Street and in the cabinet to make a huge number of decisions of massive consequence for 60 plus million people
57:08
and that can never be right can it so proportion representation for the commons an elected senate
57:14
of the nations and regions for the lords maximum devolution out to the the great cities of england
57:20
and and uh beyond um you know that you know for me you've got to rewire the country in that way
57:27
finally and briefly personal ambition two is there any oh yeah of course i mean i i but for me it's about i want to go
57:40
as high as i can go to enact as much change as i can on the themes that i've been talking about so
57:47
it i know people won't like you they won't believe that down here but that is what what i'm doing and
57:53
the reason why i'm quite you know everyone always thinks i'm about to jump and return to westminster
57:57
the reason why i'm still doing what i'm doing in greater manchester is because we've just put a cap
58:01
on bus fares that makes me happier than anyone here would would understand because that is helping
58:08
people today in greater manchester i've given the kids a free bus pass that makes me happy
58:13
and that that's because that's my aspiration again i'm i've kind of said to the 16 to 18 year olds
58:19
we are going to back you because we believe in you so we're giving you that free bus pass for
58:25
to go wherever life will take you and that is why i do it james we've gone from hufflepuff
58:31
to griffindor says uh says emma i quite like that um there's a welsh saying which i won't attempt
58:37
to say it translates as do the small things diane tells me he lived by that mantra in manchester
58:43
and that's why he is so beloved up here i'm not suggesting burnham is a saint by any means but
58:48
the small things matter the most to the vast majority of the population i wonder interesting
58:53
And all of this, of course, speaking to the question of what Andy Burnham needs to do
58:59
or what needs to happen to Andy Burnham, or what Andy Burnham has already done, or is already in possession of
59:07
that will make the biggest difference to his early success and or failure
59:12
The Daily Telegraph is having a completely normal day. Burnham has virtually guaranteed that his premiership will end in failure
59:19
Right, it's one of their columnists. Neil Kinnock should not be eulogised as a role model
59:23
writes another. Convicted fraudster Louise Haig has no place in any cabinet, writes yet another
59:29
There's no worse choice for foreign secretary than Ed Miliband, writes even another one. And we
59:35
haven't even got Alistair Heath's hot take on this yet. I think the unhinged headline feature
59:40
on this programme is probably safe for the foreseeable future. I want your thoughts on this
59:47
And what about the specifics? So we've done big picture, done broad brushstrokes. Is there a
59:52
single thing. I mean, look, my inbox is going to be full of people shouting Gaza, and that's
59:57
absolutely fine. But is it true? I mean, Andy Burnham has said that he will take a much stronger line with regard to Benjamin Netanyahu's regime administration in Israel
1:00:08
Is that really going to switch you back to voting Labour from wherever it is that you've ended up
1:00:13
I don't know, but I want the slightly bigger things perhaps, not in terms of our day-to-day life, but in terms of our ideals and convictions
1:00:22
The number remains the same, 03456060973. What does Andy Burnham really need to do
1:00:28
What does he really need to do to undertake that rewiring that he talked about in that clip
1:00:36
And that's four years ago. And you could tell his eye was already on the prize
1:00:41
had been for a long time, but not just for reasons of personal ambition, I think
1:00:46
And it doesn't mean he'll succeed, but I think he really wants... I read a line today, I can't remember where it was
1:00:52
somebody saying that Boris Johnson was the best prepared prime minister we'd ever had
1:00:56
and it wasn't invis i don't think or some sort of parody column i don't think it was one of
1:01:04
henry morris's excellent parody columns just so we live in that world we live in a world where
1:01:09
people are still going to claim that boris johnson was the best prepared prime minister we've ever
1:01:13
had and he really wanted the job for reasons other than his own ego that's categorically
1:01:18
and palpably not true and you need a big ego to want to be prime minister but i like that clip
1:01:23
because it was long before he was campaigning and he spoke of why he wanted to have power
1:01:30
And it wasn't to make his own nest softer. It wasn't to put himself in a position
1:01:37
where foreign billionaires might secretly slip in 5 million quid on the never-never
1:01:42
He wanted power in order to do things. It's why the bus fare line works
1:01:49
It's why the bus fare line works. Never really going to... Because if you can't say that authentically, you can't really say anything
1:01:56
People here will never understand why capping bus fares made me so happy
1:02:01
It's because he can see the people that he's trying to help in his mind's eye
1:02:05
whereas an awful lot of politicians seem to be talking about and to focus groups or ideas
1:02:11
I don't know. I'm just riffing. And I've done so for long enough because I want to hear more of your thoughts on this
1:02:18
Top priorities for Andy Burnham. Things he needs to do. big or small, style or substance
1:02:27
03456060973. James O'Brien on LBC. You want to play a game. Of course you do
1:02:34
Everybody loves a game. How many members of the current cabinet have done my holiday cover on LBC
1:02:40
It's not even multiple choice. I don't know, by the way. I haven't counted them. Keith just came up with this idea during the last break
1:02:45
How many members of the current... And is it a record? Or were there more in the last cabinet
1:02:52
What do we think? So, I go, Eleanor, who produces the programme, and of course has to produce the programmes
1:02:57
that are presented by my holiday cover as well, tentatively thinks that there might have been more in the last cabinet
1:03:04
more politicians who've done my holiday cover than there are in the... Oh, this is faster, this is what..
1:03:08
This is the stuff that we want. How many members of the current cabinet have done my holiday cover
1:03:13
And I can't remember. I don't listen. I'm sometimes slightly taken... Not just Keith
1:03:20
I'm sometimes slightly taken by surprise by some of the choices that are
1:03:24
inflicted upon you but I don't listen, I'm on holiday so I can't remember sometimes
1:03:30
I say one or two names here has he done it? has she done it
1:03:35
has he done it? one day, if you ever find me near closing time
1:03:40
in a local hostelry, I'll talk you through what the team thought of some of the people who have done, you'll be quite surprised
1:03:46
by some of the, the person that they speak of most warmly never ceases to surprise me
1:03:51
but that's going back a few years. Certainly not going back a few weeks
1:03:57
20 minutes after 11 is the time. What does Burnham need to do? And indeed, why
1:04:02
Jules is in Worthing. Jules, what do you reckon? Well, hi, James. Hello. I think, as a lot of your previous callers have said
1:04:08
obviously it's a hybrid. It's a mixture between style and substance. I feel very outed, really
1:04:13
because I, like you, I haven't skinned the game in the fact that the £45 is going to make a huge amount
1:04:19
Tell me what you felt when you heard it being announced. What did it do to you
1:04:23
It's a signal, James. And I think so many of your previous callers have touched on this beautifully
1:04:29
I mean, some of them have been really eloquent. And, you know, there was Sean in Birmingham
1:04:33
There was Neil in Rushcliff. They just all said it really well. And somebody else said about social patriotism
1:04:38
But it's about a signal. And that's really, really important. We can get lost in that
1:04:43
But does it make a difference with potholes and rusts leap into the person that can't put on the
1:04:47
heating in November, December. But I think you've got to start somewhere
1:04:53
and you've got to, you know, because this is the thing with democracy
1:04:57
isn't it? Obviously, you are catering to a wide variety of people in many, many different circumstances
1:05:03
Financial, social, all of that kind of thing. So, I felt heartened when I heard that
1:05:09
This is the crux of politics, isn't it, really? Because everybody can tell you
1:05:13
what they want for themselves. and that will be conflicting, and, you know, what you want for yourself
1:05:20
isn't necessarily what I want for myself, and I might not want you to get what you want for yourself
1:05:24
because I want... But it's... I mean, the problem... And in many ways, it's the distinction between left and right
1:05:29
in that the left is sort of positing what other people want
1:05:35
rather than... So, Kemi Badenow obviously just wants to look after people like Kemi Badenow, middle class, relatively high earners
1:05:41
you know, the more of us there are, the better it will be, and the Labour Party traditionally wants to look after people
1:05:48
who are perceived as needing a bit of help, and yet nobody really wants necessarily to describe themselves
1:05:54
as needing a bit of help. So he has to do it in a universal way
1:05:58
which is why energy bills and bus fares and things like that are going to also help people who are rich
1:06:04
Not that that many very rich people travel by bus, but, you know, my energy bill is going to come down
1:06:09
I don't need any help with that. So that's the trick, isn't it, is that somehow he needs to make it clear that while he's helping the people who most need help
1:06:17
he is simultaneously helping everybody and somehow pulling the country together. And I sense you're quite optimistic
1:06:24
Well, you know, what you just touched on there, that's the whole psychological kind of drama
1:06:33
the dilemma of politics, I guess. you know and I just kind of
1:06:39
I think kind of going to the style part of what you were talking about
1:06:44
with your original question what's most important for me Andy Burnham to sound authentic
1:06:50
I feel terribly superficial when I say that so do I but don't worry I'm exactly the same
1:06:55
I'm exactly the same, I just want to believe him yeah and you know
1:06:59
and that's the thing, I think all of well not all of us but I think I can
1:07:04
speak for a, it seems to me like a lost people, who felt that Keir Starmer was essentially a good bloke, but he wasn't able
1:07:14
to communicate in a way that people believed in. He just was wooden
1:07:19
And again, I feel superficial saying that. Well I mean it was incredibly frustrating to watch him sometimes And again I don want to turn this into a three hour long advert for full disclosure but when he did full disclosure I remember saying at the time he was still in opposition that there was a there was a warmth and an authenticity to it on a stage in front of
1:07:38
500 people that I hardly ever saw. In fact, the only time I think I ever saw glimpses of it
1:07:43
was when his back was really up against the wall as Prime Minister
1:07:47
or when he talked about his family, particularly his late brother Nick and his parents
1:07:52
but the rest of the time it was never there, whereas Burnham, well, he seems to wear all that on his sleeve, doesn't he
1:07:58
He does, and I was really glad that you played that clip from Full Disclosure
1:08:03
I must admit I hadn't heard it before. What? Sorry. Yeah, but, you know, and I was really heartened to hear
1:08:10
and this kind of comes to my part of my point that I wanted to make to you
1:08:15
from a personal point of view. You know, he said in that, he talked about capping back there
1:08:20
and he talked about looking after 18 year olds. I think those were his words
1:08:25
Now that heartens me because as a mother of three young people
1:08:29
all in their 20s now, I have, you know, three, £45 a year doesn't make any difference to me
1:08:36
But with children, two with plan two student loans and one with a plan four student loan
1:08:42
with a combined total of about £175,000 worth of debt between the three of them, that matters to me
1:08:49
so what I think he can do or should do is really look at the student loan system because it's not
1:08:55
fair in my opinion and I think he can do something like that and if you're going to ask me about how
1:08:59
he's going to pay for that or how you know how we can fund that I think a lot I go back to a lot of
1:09:04
what your callers have been saying before um and I mean I think the guy Sean in Birmingham said it
1:09:10
beautifully about about how to pay for different things because I thought that was very well put
1:09:15
But for me, the student loan needs a real overpriced. Yeah, I mean, you're very honest
1:09:20
because you can feel the warmth of policies that are designed to help other people
1:09:25
but equally, there are policies that you feel the need to see
1:09:30
with regards to you and or people that are in your own family, your own nearest and dearest
1:09:34
And student loans are an absolute... I mean, Martin Lewis inevitably has been incredibly strong on this
1:09:38
Lewis Goodall has done some fantastic broadcasting on this front. It's been sort of allowed to happen in the shadows
1:09:45
But of course, if it's happening to you, then it's not in the shadows. It's in glorious Technicolor, and it's potentially affecting your entire life
1:09:52
I meant to mention this earlier, Jules, thank you. I was chatting to a mum the other night who is..
1:10:01
I mean, we talk about class a lot on this programme, because it's a great signifier, and it's relevant to almost every other conversation that we have
1:10:07
not just in this country. It's just so much more than merely socioeconomic in this country
1:10:12
It's got all the other baggage as well. But I was talking to a mum who I would describe as middle class
1:10:18
and from a successful family. And the conversation drifted around to so-called NEETs
1:10:26
and the group we were in, the conversation we were having, I would say that 50% of these middle class parents
1:10:34
had a NEET at home. They had someone not just graduated this year
1:10:40
or just finished their A-levels just now because it's too early in the summer for that label to have arrived
1:10:46
But let's say last year or before, and a young person in their family
1:10:51
who was in neither education, employment nor training, and one of the mums just said something I haven't been able to forget
1:10:59
describing her daughter, and then simply said, I think she's frightened of the world
1:11:06
And I thought, I haven't heard that before. I haven't heard it put so well before
1:11:10
I think she's frightened of the world. And we can sit here pontificating about NEATs and apprenticeships
1:11:16
and also, of course, acknowledging the existence of some people who perhaps might need a kick up the backside
1:11:22
although I don't really think there's many of them. But imagine being frightened of the world
1:11:27
And then the other thought that I had on the way home, why shouldn't she be
1:11:32
Indeed, further, why wouldn't she be? Why wouldn't she be frightened of the world
1:11:37
and this is someone who hasn't gone to university possibly brackets yet closed brackets
1:11:43
this is someone who's just looking at the options that are open to frighten the world
1:11:47
I think Andy Burlam needs to reach them to go back to our very first caller
1:11:51
it was Neil wasn't it talking about the importance of focusing on
1:11:55
young people and look cynically maybe cynically maybe you point out why that's for the greater good there is a
1:12:05
utilitarian argument in favour of looking after the younger generation because it makes us all better
1:12:09
off in the long run and obviously having a million young people
1:12:13
who are not in education, employment or training is a drain both fiscally
1:12:17
and morally almost on the country. A morale based drain. It sucks something, energy
1:12:23
out of the population. So fix that and fix much more than that at the same
1:12:29
time. Thank you Jules. It's coming up to half past eleven. You are listening
1:12:33
to James O'Brien on LBC. Obviously directed a bit of business towards that old Full Disclosure episode
1:12:41
A few of you getting in touch to say you've listened to it since yesterday. And you've also got that book
1:12:47
by Burnham and Steve Rotherham that sets out a proper vision. So this is something we'll move towards
1:12:54
I don't, I mean, either later in the programme today or later in the month. But the criticism of Keir Starmer
1:13:00
that no one really knew what he stood for. Something that I think he'd probably concede himself in a way, managerial
1:13:08
But Head North, the book that Burnham wrote with Steve Rotherham, it does set out visions and ideas and clear policies
1:13:19
and also more than policies, ideologies. And that's why perhaps everything feels a little bit unfamiliar at the moment
1:13:27
Boris Johnson was in it for Boris Johnson. Liz Truss was mad. Rishi Sunak was very much a holding pattern
1:13:34
Keir Starmer never really articulated to us why he wanted to be prime minister
1:13:39
And, you know, that could have been fine in a period of peace and tranquility
1:13:44
but that's not what he inherited. Andy Burnham is the first prime minister we've had in a very..
1:13:48
I mean, David Cameron wanted to hug a hoodie. Hug a hoodie? Hug a hoodie
1:13:52
Probably the first prime minister since Gordon Brown, who's got really clear ideas of who he is, what he wants to do and why
1:14:00
but because Gordon Brown had been Chancellor for over a decade by the time he became Prime Minister
1:14:04
there was no air or sense of freshness. How long before I regret this
1:14:09
How long before I disown these warm words? Unfortunately, of course, in the internet age
1:14:15
they're here forever now. No one can find... I don't think there is a clip of me talking about Gordon Brown
1:14:21
That's how fast the world has moved. And that's where we are now. Dominic Ellis is here next with your headlines
1:14:26
James O'Brien on LBC. 7.34 is the time. I can't remember. But anyway, no one's had a go yet
1:14:35
Does anyone want to have a go at how many members of the current Cabinet have previously done my holiday cover
1:14:39
I don't know whether some of these people who did it have done it or not. Lammy did it. Lammy had his own show, didn't he, for a while
1:14:44
I wonder if he'll come back. Bring back Lammy to LBC. Because he's got a bit more time on his hands now
1:14:51
that he's no longer Deputy Prime Minister. Has Rachel Reeves done it Yeah but she not in the Cabinet anymore So that one for Eleanor There were more in the last cabinet than there are in the current cabinet John Healy not done it
1:15:05
Ed Miliband? Has Ed Miliband done it? Why not? He'd be good. Shabana Mahmood? No
1:15:12
Wes Streeting, yes. He was in the cabinet before. Technically, I suppose he wasn't, was he
1:15:16
He wasn't in the last cabinet. It was in the one before last, because he resigned. Yvette Cooper, has she done it
1:15:23
Never. Are you sure? You're not sure, are you? Oh, how embarrassing
1:15:28
Imagine if she had and we couldn't remember. Jonathan Reynolds? Peter Kyle
1:15:36
Angela Rayner? Big yes. She's done it a couple of times. Has Bridget Philipson done it
1:15:41
Lucy Powell? Are you sure? If you're just tuning in, this is not the reason why this radio programme
1:15:47
has become the most listened to in the history of speech radio
1:15:51
on UK commercial radio. Yeah, this is a private conversation between me and the producer
1:15:55
which probably needed a little bit of context if you found yourself joining it halfway through
1:16:02
Heidi Alexander? Are you sure? Anyway, as I said. Lisa Nandy? Yes, she has
1:16:09
Anyway, she's done full disclosure. So, just in case you're... Well, I'm glad Chris Bryant's back
1:16:14
although I did like Hilary Benn as well. I think Chris Bryant's very much a force for good
1:16:20
I mean, the things that I'm not very impressed by Andy Burnham, I should probably have done that a little bit earlier
1:16:25
I'm very surprised he's left Shabana Mahmood in the home office. I think she's a very divisive figure
1:16:32
I'm a little bit uncomfortable as a white man. I felt the same with Suella Braverman
1:16:37
I'm a little bit uncomfortable saying that somebody... Well, actually, I'm very uncomfortable, so I won't say it
1:16:44
You know, even if you feel it, when you start trying to work out what it is that you feel
1:16:47
you should abandon that feeling that somebody from an ethnic minority is perfectly entitled to be as anti-immigration in this country
1:16:53
as somebody who isn't, particularly if your politics are like mine, because you think Shibana Mahmood and Suella Braverman
1:16:59
have just as much right to be here as anybody else, albeit that the people they sometimes seem to be pandering to
1:17:05
with their immigration rhetoric would, when push comes to shove, not agree that Shibana Mahmood and Suella Braverman
1:17:10
are equals in every possible sense of the word to me, to you, to anybody, whatever colour they are
1:17:20
But obviously, in the minds of racists, they are not equals to white Brits
1:17:25
So that anti-immigration rhetoric coming from people whose families have benefited from immigration
1:17:30
is perfectly logical and fair. And it's just, you know, middle-class liberal clichés like me
1:17:36
that sometimes think that there's a problem there. But Shibana Mahmood is of that ilk
1:17:40
politically, regardless of her background. And that's troubling. Some of her work on permanent status looks positively and possibly performatively cruel
1:17:50
So we'll have to wait and see whether Andy Burnham reigns in some of that. And I really like her on the occasions that I've met her
1:17:57
She's done full disclosure as well. He's left Lisa Nandy in culture
1:18:02
And, you know, if you're already struggling to work out how many members of the current cabinet have done my holiday cover
1:18:07
name something Lisa Nandy has done as Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport
1:18:13
I don't want to be that guy. I'll wait, says that guy
1:18:18
I'll wait. Name somebody who... I'll wait. No, let's not do that
1:18:22
Let's just wait. How long till the emergency tape kicks in, Keith
1:18:27
Oh, there it is. We're still waiting. What's she done? Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport
1:18:33
Well, she's left Twitter. But she's done nothing about Twitter. It's a funny old word, isn't it
1:18:41
I don't know whether other secretaries of state could be similarly accused of
1:18:45
inactivity or idleness but I don't think so, certainly not Shabana Mahmood
1:18:50
11.38 is the time back to Burnham, David is in Cambridge David, what would you like to say
1:18:56
Morning James Talking about the 45 quid I don't think anybody or certainly most people
1:19:04
it's not earth shattering news however, what it says to me is
1:19:08
it sets the mood music It's day one in office, and straight away I'm doing something positive
1:19:15
which is going to give people a little glimmer of hope. Compared to when Starmer went in office, it's all doom and gloom
1:19:22
It's going to get worse before it gets better, and frightening the markets and things. I'm probably a bit politically homeless at the moment
1:19:29
I don't really know much about Andy, and I've not really explored much about him
1:19:33
purely because it's all forced upon us whether we like it or not. I sort of assume he's done a relatively good job in Manchester
1:19:39
because you hear positive things about what the good people of Manchester say about him
1:19:43
And also, he romped home in Makerfield, and it wasn't just the victory, it was the scale and the nature of the victory
1:19:49
that made Keir Starmer's position untenable. Not the simple victory itself, but the scale of it
1:19:54
So, yeah, I mean, he is very, very popular out there. And so you take that at face value
1:19:59
and you sort of think, OK, well, let's just see what he does. But I think on day one, it's that kind of, OK
1:20:05
well, you're doing something that actually normal people are going to be affected by
1:20:09
rather than some speech that's going to tell me about all the stuff that you're going to do
1:20:13
Well, he's actually done something. Day one, he's actually sort of made something that you think
1:20:18
well, okay, well, that's something. That's a starting point. I think yesterday when I sort of watched him make a speech
1:20:25
he looked like a normal bloke that had just put a suit on
1:20:29
and he was in front of 10 Downing Street. He looked slightly uncomfortable, a bit slightly sort of like this time last year
1:20:35
How did this happen? And all of a sudden, I'm where I am. And I don't think that's a bad thing
1:20:39
I think that's, you know, he's got that appearance of a normal bloke
1:20:43
that might actually understand how people feel. I'm in this kind of awkward, by most people's standards
1:20:49
probably a bit like you, James. By most people's standards, I'm probably considered quite wealthy
1:20:54
I've got a good job and I earn a good salary, but I work really hard for that. Well, there's a key difference between us, Dave
1:21:00
Yeah, and I think I don't feel wealthy. I'm in that tax bracket where I'd probably be better off
1:21:08
if I earned a little bit less versus earning a little bit more. But I don't feel wealthy, and I think that the things
1:21:13
that the government have done, both Labour and Conservative over the last so many years, have just downtrodden everybody
1:21:18
in our society to the point where you just think, God, this is just never-ending. You want an escape
1:21:24
And I think what he'd done yesterday was a bit of a glimmer into, look, I hear you, I'm listening to you, this is straight away
1:21:30
this is something that I can do from day one, and hopefully there's more to come. what I'm hoping isn't going to happen is
1:21:35
he's going to say well we need a bit more tax from you I know you're already contributing
1:21:40
but we want a little bit more from you but those are the broadest shoulders
1:21:44
they've got to pay a bit more and that's what makes me nervous
1:21:48
I feel like there's more to come that's going to make people
1:21:51
It depends where you sit on that graph doesn't it because I think the mansion tax
1:21:58
is probably not going anywhere that's due to kick in pretty soon
1:22:01
That seems fair, except, of course, there's always nuance, isn't there? It seems unfair on people who have got very little equity in their expensive house
1:22:11
But that's a choice they've made, I suppose. And if the money isn't going to come from the people with the money, where is it going to come from
1:22:18
Well, my wife works in the NHS. I wouldn't say what or where, but she works in the NHS
1:22:23
And I don think she worked within the NHS for about five or six years Prior to that she works for a private company And I don think the problem with the NHS is lack of money I think there plenty of money in there
1:22:36
I think there's lots of things that if you were a person like me
1:22:40
that runs a business, you would run things in a very different way. And some of the stuff that she talks about, you think
1:22:45
Jesus, you know, surely that doesn't happen. And there's lots of things that I think there's so much waste
1:22:50
and fat in there that wouldn't take away. but you're not allowed to say cuts within the NHS
1:22:56
because it's a dirty phrase and it feels like we're cutting sales. Taking money away from a struggling system
1:23:03
but certainly savings, savings galore. There are savings that could be taken
1:23:07
from one part of the NHS and put into the other that you think, a normal person looking at it
1:23:13
you think, surely that doesn't happen. And I think I have to reserve judgment
1:23:17
until I see what he does over the next days, weeks and months
1:23:22
and what the people behind him, do. You know, actions speak louder than one
1:23:26
Yeah, and I mean, what you've highlighted, and it needs to be highlighted, is the crucial
1:23:31
difference between the greater good and the individual good. You know, that's a fascinating
1:23:37
demographic, probably a tiny one, and it's probably a lot smaller than people. There are probably many
1:23:42
people who think they're in it who aren't actually in it, when you think that if you earned a little
1:23:46
bit less, you might somehow be a little bit better off because of where the tax thresholds sit
1:23:50
but it certainly means that the work you do above the threshold is getting hit with
1:23:54
an extraordinary high tax rate roughly just halve it in your own mind
1:23:58
if someone offers you a gig and you're sort of thinking what's that going to be in terms of take home money
1:24:01
you halve it in your head and that's quite a weird thing to do but where else is that money
1:24:06
going to come from? I don't know David, thank you you say you're politically homeless, have you ever had a home
1:24:13
Well I've always voted Conservative for years I've always voted Conservative and probably partly because
1:24:20
that's just what I've always done. Yeah. Yeah, that sounds normal. I've always done that
1:24:27
But if there was an election tomorrow, who would I vote for? I really don't know
1:24:33
There's probably elements of all the parties that you could look at them and say, well, actually, yeah, that sounds good
1:24:37
Almost all. Kemi Baden-Ock's appealing for your vote specifically in the day
1:24:43
Well, I say specifically, it's not Dear David that she's written in the newspaper, but she's appealing for the votes
1:24:48
precisely of people like you today by claiming that she's more right-wing than Nigel Farage
1:24:55
Again, all these politicians will write down and say whatever they think sounds popular
1:25:01
Nigel Farage, I think, is an expert at that. Saying it and doing it are two different things
1:25:07
And a lot of the stuff that he comes out with, he's saying, actually, yeah, that makes sense, but could I put pen to paper and vote for him
1:25:12
Probably not. This is probably unfair. And I'll tell you now, you've only got about 20 seconds before the break
1:25:18
but what does he say that makes sense? Well, exactly. No, no, you just said that, you know
1:25:25
he says something and you think that... Well, the immigration, the boats, we need to stop the boats and all that kind of stuff
1:25:29
They all say that. They've seen it and doing it. They all say that. They all say that. Keir Starmer did it
1:25:33
Keir Starmer reduced the numbers enormously, but it, of course, won't stop Nigel from Nigelling
1:25:40
It is 11.45. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Andy Burnham is your Prime Minister
1:25:46
James O'Brien on LBC. Who's in, who's out, and who is, you might want to excise this image from your mind immediately, shaking it all about
1:25:57
I speak of Andy Burnham's cabinet, Andy Burnham's first cabinet, taking odds on the first resignation, I don't know
1:26:03
Natasha Clarke, LBC's political editor, is here after putting in a magnificent shift yesterday to talk us through the comings and indeed the goings
1:26:12
Anyone else panic there when I said comings? Don't worry, he's got nothing to do with any of this
1:26:16
and I don't think it would be fair to ask Natasha to calculate how many members of the current cabinet
1:26:22
have previously done my holiday cover because you're supposed to be doing that and then dropping it into my inbox
1:26:29
So, do we begin at the beginning? John Healy made your lot look a bit silly, didn't he
1:26:33
Not you personally, but all the speculation, will it be Miliband or will it be Mahmood
1:26:38
None of the above, it's John Healy. Absolutely none of the above. And look, everybody thought that
1:26:42
and like I say, I was told by people in Andy Burnham's team a few weeks ago that Ed Miliband was basically nailed on
1:26:47
So clearly he changed his mind. Or you were misinformed. Or they weren't quite as fully paid up members of Andy Burnham's team
1:26:54
as they thought they were. Well, maybe there's various possibilities. There's various possibilities
1:26:57
Okay, I'm just telling you what I know. And I think that he changed his mind
1:27:01
And I think that he was ready to appoint Ed Miliband to this big job
1:27:06
But I think we can see that with why he's been offered the job of Foreign Secretary, which I think is a little bit of a consolation prize
1:27:12
I know it's a big job. I know that he has had experience on the world stage negotiating climate deals
1:27:17
but it is not the job that I don't think that I think Ed Miliband has been dreaming of for the last few months
1:27:23
So John Healy was a surprise to everybody in Westminster yesterday. And when we saw him as the first person walking up Downing Street
1:27:30
it really did send shockwaves through Westminster. And there was lots of chat going on behind the scenes about what was happening
1:27:37
But John Healy, I think, was a surprise to basically everyone. And it shouldn't have been
1:27:41
Including John Healy? Well, maybe. It shouldn't have been a surprise because John Healy has heaps of economic experience
1:27:48
He was in the Treasury for five years under Gordon Brown and Tony Blair
1:27:52
and spent years working as the Financial Secretary of the Treasury, Chief Secretary to the Treasury
1:27:57
So he has lots of experience. He was Gordon Brown's PPS as well, I believe, Personal Private Secretary
1:28:02
So he spent a lot of time with these top Labour bods. And I was reading a lecture that he did yesterday
1:28:09
He did it in conversation with someone at Harvard University, which is on their website
1:28:15
and a really interesting conversation. He was involved in a lot of the devolution agenda in the Blair years
1:28:20
So it makes total sense to appoint someone like John Healy. He understands economics
1:28:25
He understands devolution. And sources within Number 10, sources within Downing Street
1:28:29
saying that they have a shared vision. So it shouldn't have been a surprise to us, James, but it really was
1:28:33
Stop saying us. I didn't have John Healy tapped, but I didn't join in
1:28:38
Did you have him tapped up? I didn't join in the Miliband Mahmood. Will she, won't she, will he, won't he
1:28:43
Because I don't buy it, actually. When they start conflicting stories, someone's nailed on and then someone else is nailed on
1:28:49
They can't both be nailed on. We've run out of nails. Too true. Speaking of teams, somebody, or somebody's plural
1:28:57
were at great pains to stress that Rachel Reeves had been offered an unspecified big job
1:29:01
as she cleared her office for John Healy to move in. And that was, rumour, was the defence secretary role
1:29:08
which is an absolutely astounding job swap if you were going to see John Healy and Rachel Reeves do a swap there
1:29:17
And it sounds like either, from the conversations I've had to people
1:29:21
either she was offered it knowing that she would possibly reject it, in that case then walk from the cabinet and allow that spot to free up
1:29:28
or like I say, it was genuinely the case that they wanted to keep Rachel Reeves in the team in some form
1:29:33
But that seems to me to be an incredibly unlikely thing that she was ever going to accept the job as Defence Secretary after
1:29:40
She was the one telling John Healey, I'm really sorry, we've not got any more money for defence
1:29:44
So it doesn't quite tally up to me that that would have been an appointment that she should
1:29:47
have taken it. But she's gone. Yeah, she was pictured at the pub with some of her aides last night enjoying a glass of wine
1:29:53
We don't have a Deputy Prime Minister at the moment. We will have one. I don't know if we will. Right, because Badenot doesn't have a deputy at the minute, does she
1:29:59
doesn't have a deputy Conservative leader and obviously in Prime Minister's questions she likes
1:30:03
to rotate it. Everybody thought that if there were to be a Deputy Prime Minister it would be Louise
1:30:08
Haig but I asked last night does that mean that she's Deputy Prime Minister and no one in Number
1:30:13
10 could confirm that's the case. She's the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster but she
1:30:19
is not the Deputy Prime Minister so we still don't know who if anyone will fill in for Andy Burnham
1:30:23
when he's off on the world stage. So we've got a new Chancellor, a new Foreign Secretary but the
1:30:28
same Home Secretary. Yes, interestingly, Shabana Mahmood, we've heard a lot about
1:30:32
all of these people making their pitches for their job, haven't we, James, in the last few weeks? But Shabana
1:30:36
Mahmood is the only one that we are told has essentially made the pitch
1:30:40
essentially, or her and Heidi Alexander, I should say, that wanted to stay in their jobs
1:30:46
And sources close to Shabana Mahmood have told us overnights that they basically think that
1:30:52
this is basically showing what that she basically still has a plan to get on with a job
1:30:58
that she's got lots in immigration to get on with. Sources close to her say that progress is already being made
1:31:04
on reducing migration and cleaning and changing the policing system. They say that Mahmood will now finish the job
1:31:11
making our streets safer and our immigration system fairer. It's interesting that neither Burnham nor Starmer mentioned immigration yesterday
1:31:18
Starmer didn't... I think Starmer did. Did he mention it? He did in his exit speech saying that he felt that he was leaving immigration lower than it was
1:31:24
Yes, that's true. No, you're absolutely right. But it didn't hit the drum quite as hard as he was doing a year ago
1:31:30
Shabana Mahmood may not be the same Home Secretary under Andy Burnham that she was under Keir Starmer
1:31:36
Defence Secretary Wes Streeting. This is an interesting one, James. I don't know how much there is sort of credibility
1:31:44
around this appointment at the moment. Lord Dannett was speaking to our colleague Lewis Goodall over the weekend
1:31:48
and he said this is a really serious job and actually if someone like Wes Streeting does get it
1:31:53
this would be a little bit of a bad signal. Even Ben Wallace, the former Defence Secretary, has tweeted this morning, put on social media
1:31:59
that you're taking a war hero, Dan Jarvis, out of the defence job
1:32:03
and giving it to someone like Wes Streeting is probably a bad move for Andy Burnham
1:32:08
But equally, you've heard Wes Streeting talk about increased defence spending before
1:32:12
and people I've spoken to in the defence industry today and yesterday are quite pleased
1:32:16
They think this is a good man to have fighting their corner for more money for defence
1:32:20
But I guess, as ever, we'll have to see where John Healy and West Streeting could find the money from
1:32:25
Kyle out, Reynolds Inn at Business. Oh, we skipped on health, where Yvette Cooper will take over from West Streeting, which is a demotion
1:32:34
There's no way of dressing it up otherwise, is there? But equally, still a big job
1:32:38
She is a big job, and I think, you know, she, I think it's a good appointment, actually. Just to be clear, I mean, there were resignations, weren't there, in the last few weeks
1:32:45
So James Murray has been excised from history as Defence Secretary. We talk about how John Healy..
1:32:50
James Murray, Health Secretary. The Health Secretary here. So I've got, we're streating down as the one that Yvette Cooper replaced
1:32:57
but of course he replaced James Murray. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, James Murray, yeah, a very short-serving Health Secretary, unfortunately
1:33:05
And he was pitching to keep his job and unfortunately has not been given it. But I think Yvette Cooper is probably a good appointment for the Health Department
1:33:12
somebody who's obviously been around for a long time, seen as a safe pair of hands. I think she'll care about some of the issues
1:33:17
and she highlighted maternity care in her statement last night and i think that will be
1:33:21
something that she'll absolutely want to to pick up on obviously like i say she's she's not keeping
1:33:25
the job she wanted as as foreign secretary on the world stage but i still think she'll continue to
1:33:29
make a good impact in that role reynolds uh for kyle uh business and one of the names that people
1:33:35
keep telling me to watch miata fambule taking over from ed milliband energy and net zero reina
1:33:42
back in housing reina back in housing is a really interesting one and apparently right up until
1:33:46
Sunday she wasn't sure if she got a job at all but she did then get the nod to go back into the
1:33:51
department for housing and arguably she did a lot on social housing which Andy Burnham has said that
1:33:57
he wants to continue with. He talked about in his speech about wanting to oversee the biggest council
1:34:02
house building program since the end of the, I think it is the end of the cold war he said which
1:34:07
is obviously a huge huge undertaking. I think Angela Rayner really will get behind that agenda
1:34:11
I like, well, I mean, I like the fact they've separated Minister for Women and Equalities from Education, which it was linked to before, possibly as a sort of bespoke job for Bridget Phillipson, who retains the women and equalities element of that job and I think stays in Cabinet
1:34:28
But Lucy Powell is going in as Education Secretary. Yeah, a slight sort of move sideways, I think, for Bridget Philipson
1:34:37
Obviously, they wanted to make way for Lucy Powell, who's, of course, a long-term Burnham ally. She's been working with him behind the scenes
1:34:42
Obviously, when she was elected deputy Labour leader, she was a real thorn in Keir Starmer's side
1:34:47
for the last six months of his administration. So a key job there for her
1:34:51
Bridget Philipson being kept in Cabinet, as you say, a full Cabinet role, but it will just be focused on women and equality
1:34:57
So, I mean, as Bethany Dawson, our political correspondent, was reporting a couple of weeks ago there were calls of course for burnham to keep 50 percent of
1:35:04
his top team women they wanted to see this women and equalities role promoted to the cabinet so
1:35:09
is this andy burnham listening to to the women a little bit closer um however one source in
1:35:14
government i was speaking to yesterday says look the three offices the three great offices of state
1:35:19
one it was three women and one man it's now three men and one woman so not a fantastically great look
1:35:25
for andy burnham as he as he sort of puts together his top team that's not an opinion that's counting
1:35:30
Pat McFadden stays put at work and pensions. In fact, all of the people that stay put
1:35:33
You've got two Alexanders, a Heidi and a Douglas, the latter at Scotland and the former in transport
1:35:38
and then you've got Lisa Nandy at culture. Pat McFadden staying at work and pensions
1:35:43
Lammy out, of course, so a new justice secretary, not just a new foreign secretary
1:35:48
Alex Norris moves into that role. And Angela Eagle moving into environment, food and rural affairs
1:35:55
Steve Reid having a little bit of a hissy fit on the way out. No, it's not fair, but pointing out the disloyalty of some of his now ex-colleagues
1:36:04
Yes, he said in his resignation letter, can you say it's a resignation letter when you're being fired
1:36:09
No. Is that fair? It's his valedictory address. It is. It's his farewell note
1:36:13
It's his farewell note to the nation, essentially making it clear that he would have served had he been asked to do a cabinet job
1:36:18
But, you know, Andy Burnham obviously has to make room for a bit of fresh blood in his cabinet
1:36:23
He's promising this change. He can't keep on every single one of Keir Starmer's old cabinet ministers, can he
1:36:30
So, yeah, an interesting move there. And Angela Eagle will be, I think, in a really big role at Environment
1:36:36
Anti-Burnham's made it quite clear he wants to look at taking Thames water into public control in some way
1:36:42
And just going back to Pat McFadden, a funny story from last week. Some lovely person from the Department for Work and Pensions press office called me up on Thursday and said
1:36:50
Natasha, we've got a potential interview with Pat McFadden for you on Tuesday morning
1:36:55
And I said, Tuesday morning? Are you sure? Do you know something I don't about Pat McFadden
1:37:00
Obviously, that interview was later cancelled because that's what happens when you're trying to reorganise a new government
1:37:05
But actually, maybe they did know something we didn't. He has stayed in post. Pat McFadden, the great survivor of Kiss Tommer to Andy Burnham's government
1:37:12
Heidi Alexander at Transport, Chris Bryant going to Northern Ireland, Stephen Kinnock going to Wales, and Lord Helmer out, Ellie Reeves in
1:37:19
And the only other thing we should talk about is the abolition if you like or at least the merging of science innovation and technology that moves back into business and trade under Jonathan Reynolds So it farewell to Liz Kendall But the new post of online safety and AI secretary going to Kanishka Narayan
1:37:37
that's a statement of intent, or at least as priorities. Or is it just basically making up for the fact that you're kind of shafting the DSIT department
1:37:46
And I was speaking to people last night who said not quite sure that scrapping DSIT
1:37:50
and putting it into business is a good thing for AI. but clearly Andy Bunham making up for it by trying to put in a cabinet minister for AI around the cabinet table
1:38:00
So, you know, you can argue it either way, can't you? But there are people in government who I was speaking to last night who say
1:38:05
actually, we'd rather have a department working on this rather than a specific minister working within this
1:38:10
So it's quite unclear about if you've got a minister for AI, which department do they sit in
1:38:16
And where does that sort of agenda sit across government? So lots to watch. Plenty for us to be getting our teeth into
1:38:21
moving forward and plenty of space to watch. Thank you, Natasha Clarke, which is
1:38:27
political editor. I nearly said political secretary then. That's a nice job
1:38:32
I've got cabinet roles buzzing around my head. I don't know what we're going to do next
1:38:35
Still lots of people waiting to talk about the broader Burnham question, but I'm also intrigued by
1:38:40
the specifics of one of the first announcements he made, namely homelessness and his determination
1:38:45
to abolish it. The feasibility, the plausibility of that and indeed the causes of it. You'll have to stay tuned to find out
1:38:51
what we decide to do after this. James O'Brien on LBC. It's five minutes after 12
1:38:59
and it is time to talk about the first big announcement that Andy Burnham made yesterday
1:39:03
I like the way he said, I'm going in Tide to Downey Street and I'm issuing instructions. Is that the word he used
1:39:08
I think he said instruction, my first instruction. He has arrived in power and indeed in Westminster
1:39:14
with a determination to get things done, not to wait and see how things shake town
1:39:20
shake down, as it were, and respond accordingly. The Privy Council is meeting as we speak
1:39:27
All of the big cheeses in the new administration making their way into Downing Street
1:39:32
Someone's just shouted, which regiment did you serve in, Wes? Wes Street-ing as he makes his way up Downing Street
1:39:38
I asked, if you weren't listening, I asked Andrew Marr yesterday whether or not he ever witnessed anybody getting a..
1:39:45
I should have asked Natasha the same question, but Andrew's been doing it for a little longer
1:39:50
whether he ever witnessed anybody ever getting a meaningful answer to a question bellowed by
1:39:56
one of the journalists in attendance at Downing Street. And Andrew, who has been there since
1:40:00
the early 1980s, been attending the comings and goings of new and departing prime ministers
1:40:07
said that he hadn't managed to, he'd never witnessed a single occasion where one of the
1:40:11
journalists got a proper answer. But of course, he also explained, which is why he's always such
1:40:15
wonderful company at times like that, why it still happens. And it is..
1:40:21
I mean, it's for what the kids now call content, isn't it? So you're not actually expecting
1:40:25
an answer, but if you're putting it on the 10 o'clock news or we're playing it out
1:40:29
in the bulletin, silence is rubbish. So I report to you, Wes Streeting is making his way
1:40:35
into Downing Street, having recently been appointed, having been a surprise appointment as the new
1:40:39
Secretary of State for Defence. And then we play out the tape, Keith presses the button, and we
1:40:43
play out the tape, and if you're lucky, you might here's some footsteps. So there's no colour
1:40:48
There's no colour, there's no context. Whereas, if I say the new Defence Secretary
1:40:55
where Streeting is making his way into Downing Street for the first meeting of Andy Burnham's new cabinet
1:41:01
and then Keith presses the button and we play the tape, and someone shouts, What regiment did you serve in, Mr Streeting
1:41:07
And then we've got a nice bit of colour. This is currently live from Downing Street
1:41:15
I have to talk now, otherwise the emergency tape kicks in. So that's what would happen
1:41:23
So, I mean, it's almost a mystery hour question. In fact, I've got a feeling it has been a mystery hour question
1:41:28
Why do journalists always shout questions at politicians arriving at Downing Street
1:41:32
even though they never, ever answer them? To which the answer, we now know
1:41:36
I worked this out yesterday. The answer is, well, this is the reason why
1:41:40
because this is the live feed from Downing Street, and nobody wants to hear this on a radio programme
1:41:45
Which is why they shout. The other thing they do... You see? There he is. What did he say
1:41:55
I should have shouted for a while, but I didn't know he was going to start bellowing, did I? I've only got the audio. I can't see the pictures
1:42:00
What regiment did you serve in West Street? Might have been an escape
1:42:07
And the other thing they're doing, remember, because there are cameras there as well, not just microphones
1:42:12
So you get footage sometimes. You shout the right question. and you might get a slightly, you know, a roll of the eyes
1:42:18
or a shake of the head. I can't think of much else that you'd get as a consequence of that
1:42:25
but you see, so there used to be a field producer who, I can't remember what his nickname was
1:42:30
Andrew reminded us yesterday, who was renowned for bellowing sometimes quite unexpected questions
1:42:36
at the attending politicians, and in response you'd get footage. So his job, as a field producer for the BBC
1:42:44
is not a political correspondent. His job is not to get them to answer questions
1:42:49
His job is to get good footage on tape that they can then play out later on the news
1:42:57
Speak up. What again? So that, anyway, there you go. I've solved that mystery after doing this job for over 20 years
1:43:05
How many prime ministers have we had during the period that I've been doing this job? Should we count them
1:43:10
Tony Blair. Gordon Brown. David Cameron Theresa May Boris Johnson Liz Truss, Rishi Sunak
1:43:21
Keir Starmer, Andy Burnham So the next one will be my tenth
1:43:25
That will be my tenth in the course of I mean not a short
1:43:29
stint on your radio I grant you, but nonetheless there shouldn't really be
1:43:33
That average is about one every two just under one every two years
1:43:37
or one just every over two years. Anyway, ten minutes after that 12 is the time
1:43:44
Gobby was his name. The field producer who used to bellow sometimes unexpected questions
1:43:53
at politicians wandering up Downing Street. Gobby was his name. Homelessness. Now, I've spent quite a lot of time covering that
1:44:02
entirely unnecessary little episode, so I haven't got as long as I might have liked
1:44:06
to talk about homelessness, but I've got quite a few important things to say to you. I realised relatively recently
1:44:11
that we have a completely upside-down approach to homelessness. And I'm part of the problem
1:44:21
I'm not lecturing you for once. I'm not suggesting that you need to be different. But I don't know about you
1:44:27
but I think the massive majority of us harbour a fear of homeless people
1:44:35
I'm talking about the visceral fear within the encounter. there is a fear of chaos, there is a fear of violence, there is a fear of being assailed
1:44:48
and it translates into a thought a conclusion that homeless people are dangerous people and that might be true in the context of mental health desperation and addiction but it not true in the context of character I don think I shared this with you before
1:45:07
but I've been thinking about it quite a lot lately. If you're homeless, you are almost by
1:45:12
definition not ruthless. Because if you were possessed of any ruthlessness whatsoever
1:45:18
you would probably not end up homeless. Listen, I fully appreciate that mental health
1:45:23
and addiction add entirely new dimensions to what I'm saying. But for people who suffer from neither
1:45:31
I think that there is a softness to some of these people
1:45:35
that explains how they could have ended up being buffeted by the fates
1:45:40
and by fortune to a point where they no longer have a home. I don't think you can make massive generalizations about homelessness
1:45:48
partly because every journey towards homelessness is going to be different from the other one
1:45:54
But I do think that Andy Burnham touched on something universal yesterday
1:45:59
when he pledged to get rid of it. He won't get rid of it entirely. And everybody knows that
1:46:05
Anybody pretending that he is going to completely get rid of homelessness
1:46:09
I mean, it's his fault, partly. He probably shouldn't have used those words. He could have said, I will massively reduce it
1:46:14
But, you know, I used to speak to a chap in Chiswick, actually
1:46:18
who didn't want to be homed. He didn't want even money for a hostel for the night
1:46:23
Ex-military, a proper backpack, still had his rucksack packed as if he was on manoeuvres
1:46:30
and just disappear for months on end. I'd ask him where he'd been and he'd say, I don't know
1:46:37
He'd found his rut, if you liked, and he was quite happy. So you're never going to abolish it completely, but you can reduce it enormously
1:46:44
There's something really damaging to the fabric of society about homelessness. Because it makes us all feel a bit guilty
1:46:55
And it also makes us all feel a bit vulnerable. We feel guilty because we can't quite believe we're living in a society
1:47:01
Because almost most of the time there's not a great deal we can do about it
1:47:05
Some people may well stop for a chat with every homeless person that they see
1:47:09
Or offer to buy some food or give some money to every homeless person that they see
1:47:13
you have a long line of do-gooders arguing that you shouldn't give them money
1:47:18
because they'll spend it all on drugs and booze and then you have slightly less responsible people like me
1:47:23
thinking, well, if I was homeless I'd probably be quite keen on getting my hands on some drugs and some booze
1:47:28
so, you know, you make your decision according to what you think you'd want if you were homeless
1:47:33
There's no correct answer to some of these questions although almost all of the major charities
1:47:38
do urge you to offer sustenance rather than cash and you can see why
1:47:43
but guilt and vulnerability i think are the normal responses to homelessness guilt because
1:47:50
you can't do more and vulnerability because it could be you and some people won't feel either of
1:47:56
those some people are blessed with a complete absence of empathy they don't have any whatsoever
1:48:01
i read a great piece this morning suggesting that andy burnham would be a good prime minister because he did english at university therefore he must be better capable of empathy than people who
1:48:09
for example, did law or engineering. I didn't go to university at all
1:48:15
because I didn't get the grades or whatever. I think I feel guilt and vulnerability
1:48:22
when I see a homeless person. Guilt because I can't do much about it
1:48:28
And vulnerability because until probably the last four years, five years, I don't know whether it's a consequence of age
1:48:36
quotes, success, end quotes, or therapy, but I no longer see a homeless person
1:48:42
and think, oh, that might be me one day. I used to. And that's got nothing to do with where you're born
1:48:48
or where you come from. Martin Amis used to write about tramp angst
1:48:52
That was a phrase he coined. And he suffered from tramp angst. And he compared himself to one of his great friends
1:48:58
probably Julian Barnes. That's who he normally compared himself to, but I can't remember for sure
1:49:03
who didn't. And they were both very comfortably off, successful writers. And Martin Amis still, quite late in life
1:49:12
had an image of himself ending up on a park bench. He had an image, so that's where the vulnerability is
1:49:17
Some people feel it, some people don't. Trampanks, the idea that you might end up one day with nothing
1:49:24
I wonder whether neurodiversity plays a role in that. If you've got ADHD, you know that you sometimes end up
1:49:29
doing something utterly ridiculous, and you don't really stop yourself, and you realise almost in the moment that you've done it
1:49:35
that you've done something utterly ridiculous. so the fear of accidentally losing everything
1:49:40
might be more real among neurodiverse people than it is among neurotypical people
1:49:45
I don't know, I'm thinking out loud, but I had tramp angst. Just pause for a moment, close my eyes, have a little think
1:49:54
and I know it's not, and I haven't got it anymore. I hope it's not there. I haven't got it anymore
1:49:58
It used to be real. There's a story about ten years ago about a former television presenter
1:50:02
who ended up sleeping on a bench in Brighton, I think, or somewhere on the seaside
1:50:07
and that really slapped me around the chops like a wet kipper. I was like, you see, it can happen
1:50:12
even to people who've done okay in the media. You could end up... So, vulnerability, probably
1:50:19
Guilt, possibly. And that's why it's much bigger than changing the lives of the people who are sleeping rough
1:50:26
or who are sofa surfing. When Andy Burnham pledges to reduce homelessness
1:50:31
he's pledging to improve the environment in which we all live by helping some of the people in our country who are most in need of help
1:50:40
It can't abolish it completely because some people, not many, and it's a bit of a cop-out rhetorically
1:50:49
It's certainly not something you'd expect a politician to argue, but there will be some people who don't want to go into a hostel
1:50:54
or who are resistant to the idea of rescue, as it were
1:50:59
for a whole variety of reasons. But other countries, notably Scandinavia, have taught us
1:51:04
that Scandinavian countries have taught us that you can make massive changes to homelessness
1:51:11
So, how do you end up homeless? I mean, have I got enough people listening to this
1:51:20
who've had periods of homelessness or who are homeless now? How did it happen
1:51:26
How close are the rest of us? How's that line about two paychecks away from oblivion, is it
1:51:33
Is that right? Is it two paychecks away from it? You think about how long would I have if I stopped earning tomorrow
1:51:40
if nothing was coming in. I had a private landlord who wouldn't accept universal credit
1:51:46
or whatever the circumstances were. Your partner threw you out. She moved someone else in or he moved someone
1:51:52
How vulnerable? What is the average? Because, you know, if that first conversation that we had about
1:51:59
the cost of living crisis and the value, if you like, of £45 in the pocket of the average family
1:52:08
as a consequence of this removal of VAT from electricity bills. If £45 is a notable sum of money
1:52:15
then you must be quite close to the edge almost constantly. What pushes people over the edge
1:52:22
What pushes people over the edge? 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need Now that question number one and I don know I mean I hope I got people well I hope I haven got people
1:52:39
Oh here's a great phone in. I hope there's no one listening who can answer the question that I'm asking
1:52:43
because I wouldn't wish homelessness on anybody, but how does it happen? Might seem like a stupid question, but it's not if you think about it
1:52:50
How do you end up losing so much that you've got nowhere to lay your head at night
1:52:54
0345 6060973 is the number that you need. And I want you to think about this
1:53:03
I'm no more qualified to answer this question than you are, so don't hold back
1:53:07
Give me a ring and just tell me your thoughts. Can you fix it
1:53:12
And don't say, yes, we can. You're not Bob the bloody builder. Can homelessness be fixed
1:53:17
Tell me what you've witnessed in other countries. Tell me what work you've done. tell me of your experiences, either as homeless or with homeless people
1:53:25
Can it actually be fixed? Because I'm... I mean, it has to be, right
1:53:31
You have to be... Surely you can. I don't remember seeing many homeless people around when I was a kid
1:53:38
I'm pretty sure I would have noticed. You would, wouldn't you? You have to explain it to your own children these days
1:53:45
So, how does it happen? And can it be fixed? 0345 6060 973
1:53:53
James O'Brien on LBC It's 21 minutes after 12 It was a strange thing, I think
1:53:59
Or was it, actually? I think I'm turning everything One of those moods, aren't I, today
1:54:03
Where I'm turning everything into a phoning Was it a strange thing to do? It struck me as an interesting and unexpected intervention
1:54:12
When the first thing Andy Burnham said he would do as Prime Minister Is abolish homelessness
1:54:17
many large questions over whether he's managed to do that in Manchester or not
1:54:22
I mean he hasn't but it has been measurably reduced it's gone back up again from its lowest point
1:54:28
but it still remains considerably lower than it was when he took over and before he arrived at Buckingham Palace yesterday
1:54:35
he visited a homelessness charity I don't know if you knew that it could easily have got missed during all the noise
1:54:40
so he is putting his money so to speak where his mouth is
1:54:44
he is, you know, pressing the flesh and visiting. Who was it? Who turned up
1:54:50
Oh, it was Rishi Sunak, wasn't it? Do you remember that? He turned up at a homeless shelter
1:54:55
and asked somebody what they wanted to... Are you in business or something
1:55:00
What was it? We've got to dig that clip out, haven't we? And he meant well
1:55:04
but that is one of the things we've been talking about, the difference between meaning well and doing well
1:55:09
And Rishi Sunak said to someone, Oh, are you in business? Would you like to be in business? And the bloke just said
1:55:13
no, I'm homeless. You're visiting a homeless shelter. But I didn't dislike Sunak in that moment
1:55:20
I just sort of thought, how have you ended up being Prime Minister? So here's Andy..
1:55:24
In fact, I'll play you both clips and then ask you the questions again. Here's Andy Burnham
1:55:28
shortly before arriving at Buckingham Palace yesterday, choosing to spend time at the homelessness charity
1:55:35
in Westminster called The Passage. I'm starting it here at The Passage in Victoria
1:55:41
an amazing organisation that supports people who are street homeless, recovering from homelessness
1:55:47
It just felt to me the right place to start a day like this, to get myself on the ground
1:55:53
just to see what life is like, what the team here are dealing with and what more we can do to support them
1:55:58
So I'm making a big announcement. It will be about ending homelessness, rough sleeping at the first opportunity
1:56:05
We've just got to get back to care for people in all that we do
1:56:10
and running things in the right way across the country. So brilliant to meet the team at the Passage
1:56:16
Obviously, funding will be coming through to get back to a position where we can take everybody in
1:56:22
like we did in the pandemic. That's the mission. The Passage are leading the way, but more to come
1:56:28
So thanks, everybody. Big day ahead, but hopefully starting in the right way
1:56:32
I'll play the Sunak clip a little later because I want to get the proper conversation up
1:56:36
and running first. It's double show. How does it happen? How did it happen to you
1:56:42
And can it actually be fixed? Can it be fixed? How do you fix it
1:56:47
Chris is in Leeds. Chris, what made you pick up the phone? Hi, James. Yeah, quite an interesting one about how you actually get there
1:56:55
I'm just very, very quickly recapping. I'll take your time. There's no rush
1:57:00
Yeah, it's fine. I ended up leaving the marital home about ten years ago
1:57:07
Things had sort of broken down. The relationship ended, did it? absolutely my ex-wife um ended up moving into rented accommodation which was the first thing
1:57:14
i see just because we had a child together um so you so literally i had the rug pulled about from
1:57:20
under me almost um and moved into this uh into rent accommodation to be fair wasn't bad but you
1:57:27
were sat there night after night for the first few weeks thinking how the hell did i get here
1:57:31
um even though i was in employment um and and and after a couple couple of months i couldn't i
1:57:37
I couldn't stand living there because it was just literally the voice, you know, everything in your head
1:57:42
So I ended up sort of decided that I wanted to get out of there. It was too bleak
1:57:47
Yeah, pretty much. And thought the safety net, your family and friends, you could just sort of go and move back home and everything else
1:57:54
This is why I didn't want you to rush, because I know, and you may be rushing because you don't want to dwell on it
1:58:00
and you don't want to think about it, but that is what I was trying to convey
1:58:04
is that you can't quite believe how complete the reversal has been
1:58:09
That must be traumatic, man. It was strange because you wanted to provide a sort of safe environment
1:58:16
for yourself and your son or your child, whatever you've got. But I felt that I'd be better off sort of going home to the rooms
1:58:24
going to parents, you know, until I found somewhere better and I got my sort of old, you know what together
1:58:29
and moved out, expecting to go back to, like I said, to family and friends
1:58:35
and do a bit of sofa surfing. But the shame of that, I didn't actually even want to ask
1:58:40
So I ended up for about three weeks literally sleeping in the back of my car
1:58:43
during the middle of winter. Everything, laundry and everything in the back of the car
1:58:49
And then, sort of, going into the winter office in the morning
1:58:53
getting changed, you know, well before anybody came in there. Did anyone know? No
1:58:57
Oh, well. Yeah, It's funny how you keep very, you sort of hide it
1:59:02
but it's almost a shame. It's almost like a shame spiral. And you can see then how you can either go one way or the other
1:59:09
I mean, I was quite lucky because actually a really close friend kind of knew
1:59:15
even though I've not alluded to it, and they sort of said, look, come and stay with me for a little while
1:59:20
That's one of the things, isn't it, that you'd think might happen
1:59:24
I mean, surely, I've been on this earth, I don't know how old you were, but let's say I've been on this earth for 40 years
1:59:29
I've got family, I've got friends, I've got connections, I've got loyalties, I've got emotional and I've got debts
1:59:37
and if someone else was in this situation, I'd help them. And then nobody helps you
1:59:41
Partly because you're too ashamed to ask, and partly because I suppose people are..
1:59:47
What's the word? People have got their own stuff going on, haven't they? Yeah, that's exactly it
1:59:52
and I think it's sometimes very easy to fall through that net, And if you do end up going into that
1:59:57
you know, you can't then, it affects your work and something ...and you just, you just basically can't, you just can't reach out
2:00:03
And sometimes it is, a lot of it's down to, almost down to shame. So, so, by moving in with this friend, you were able to get your act back together again
2:00:12
Yeah, and again, but this, I mean, I'd had family already sort of saying that
2:00:16
well, you're not coming and staying here, because the... What was that like? What was that like
2:00:20
Terrible, absolutely terrible. You know, you think sometimes it's just a given that that's what happened
2:00:25
I mean, if it were my son on a privilege, you'd be saying we are kids, you'd quite happily do that
2:00:28
Of course. But you get that, and you don't want to burden anybody
2:00:33
or really just say, look, I'm really, really struggling. And they think, well, you've got a job, you know
2:00:38
And it's almost a generational thing. I mean, I'm of a similar sort of age too
2:00:42
I mean, I can remember your grandparents' pub in New Leeds Market, so that gives you some sort of idea
2:00:47
But, yeah, they almost say, you know, snap out of it and pull yourself together. You're a big boy now
2:00:51
You know, deal with your own sort of stuff. And that, unfortunately, is still a big thing
2:00:55
Of course it is. Of course it is. So when did the, if you like, the recovery
2:01:00
I mean, how did the recovery come about? When did you get back on your feet, as it were
2:01:05
I'll tell you something, anybody who says that these, if anybody who actually, I mean
2:01:09
people do probably choose to sleep out on, to sleep rough. But no, I don't think it's part necessarily
2:01:14
of the actual conversation. It's not. Until we've done everything we can to help all the people
2:01:19
who don't want to be there. That's the thing. And I think the thing was for me is that
2:01:25
it was just that one person. I think it's just almost sometimes, like you say, swallowing pride
2:01:29
and just say, look, I'm struggling, you know. And I think, like, listen, Andy, I was listening to
2:01:35
I mean, I don't agree with everything Lee Anderson says, but he made a very valid point this morning with Nick
2:01:39
where he said, you know, a lot of it's down to mental health and there's a lot of factors to it
2:01:44
And he would pretty bang on the money with that, making sure you get that support from whatever outlet you feel
2:01:50
that works for you, you know, and that's what I did. And there we are now
2:01:56
Yeah, absolutely. Ten years later, you know, it's just a distant memory
2:02:00
Do you harbour much bitterness towards the people who didn't help you? No
2:02:05
Better not to, isn't it? Because it will just eat you up from the inside. But it's a bit of a shocker, that
2:02:11
It is, James. And like I say, when you're laid there, having to put your heater on in your little car
2:02:17
and it's that cold, and you're just thinking, well, I just cannot burden anybody with this
2:02:24
So I just feel like a cat. That's what I meant, actually. Whereas if you were ruthless
2:02:29
and I know I left open a very, very poor pun when I talked about ruthlessness in the context of homelessness
2:02:35
which, of course, could also be described as ruthlessness with an F
2:02:39
Well, congratulations to everybody who spotted that joke that I wouldn't have made even if I had spotted it at the time
2:02:44
But if you were a more ruthless man, then you would have..
2:02:48
Do you know what I mean? If you had sharper elbows, you wouldn't have ended up in this situation
2:02:52
No, absolutely not. That was what I was trying to touch on in the introduction
2:02:57
And of course, as you say, mental health is a huge part of it, although I'm not sure Mr. Anderson was addressing quite the point you describe
2:03:04
I think he was offering that up as a reason why it's not possible or not easy to do
2:03:09
whereas everybody would accept that one of the first things you need to do to help homeless people
2:03:14
a huge number of homeless people, is to help and treat and address their mental health
2:03:20
And yet that point there about ruthlessness, you could hear it. You know, if you were selfish, you wouldn't end up in these situations
2:03:29
And yet, those of us who've never ended up in these situations look at some of the people who have
2:03:34
and see them as being dangerous or a threat. Whereas, in fact, if they were more dangerous
2:03:41
if they were more of a threat, if they were meaner or more selfish or more ruthless
2:03:46
just my pet theory for the morning, the afternoon, they wouldn't have ended up in that situation in the first place
2:03:51
It's 12.31. David Dom has your headline. James O'Brien on LBC. 12.34 is the time
2:03:59
You've just reminded me, right, Karen, of Nadeem Zahawi being scared of a man who hadn't slept
2:04:04
I can't forget that as well. We should probably dig that clip out as well
2:04:09
And I want to play the Rishi Sunak one because, I don't know, it just speaks to the whole show today
2:04:15
We're talking about homelessness now, talking about authenticity and Andy Burnham in the first hour
2:04:20
and the difference between walking and talking, if you like. Or, you know, I think Rishi Sinat is a decent bloke
2:04:27
Incredibly privileged, yes, of course. But that doesn't give you... That doesn't stop you meaning well or being decent
2:04:34
What Andy Burnham brings, differently, is depth of knowledge. Understanding it's more than just empathy
2:04:41
And there's no earthly way that Andy Burnham would have walked into a homelessness shelter
2:04:45
and done this. Morning. We've done more than economy now
2:05:23
Well that is exactly what I'm trying to do. Basically this test
2:05:28
Well do you work in a business? No I'm homeless, actually a homeless person
2:05:34
I'm interested in new business. What kind of business? Finance, it's good for the city and when finance and stuff is doing well we'll do a lot of
2:05:43
Yeah, that's absolutely right. Yeah, that's absolutely right. So I used to work in finance, actually
2:05:48
Yeah, well, I did lots of different things. But I mean, you know, I obviously feel much sorrier for the homeless person
2:05:56
than I do for Rishi Sunak, but I can see how he ended up sort of quite tiggerish, you know
2:06:00
sort of, oh, hello, yes, oh, okay. Burnham, I think, I think is offering something very different
2:06:06
He's offering a depth of understanding and a determination to fix things because he understands how easily it can happen
2:06:10
Crucial difference, of course, between homelessness and rough sleeping. I think that Nadeem Zahawi's little experience in this area is arguably
2:06:20
well, it's a lot more embarrassing than Rishi Sunak's, who just sort of suffered the crime of being recorded and enthusiastic
2:06:27
Nadeem Zahawi, he was actually talking to Nick Ferrari. Was it this year No it wasn It must have been longer ago than that I mean you just wonder where these people What do they do all day Do you feel safe in London No I got to tell you
2:06:44
And for your children? Yesterday, I walked from my home in one of the most..
2:06:50
Well-heeled. Upmarket, you can call it, areas of London. And an individual walked past me
2:06:56
I literally walked off the pavement into the middle of the road, kept a very close eye
2:07:00
at 8am. Right? What was this interview? Did he appear to be drunk
2:07:06
Did he appear to be aggressive? He just looked like he hadn't slept
2:07:12
for a week and just looked like somebody that might be violent. I don't know
2:07:23
But I just walked away from the pavement to walk. And I'm a big guy
2:07:28
Yes, you are. and I don't feel safe that my 13 year old can walk in London
2:07:34
That can't be right. He's so bad at it, isn't it? Was this before or after he defected to reform
2:07:40
It must have been after. And he's trying to do the same nonsense talking. Oh, London's not safe
2:07:44
Right, London's not safe. London's not safe. London's not safe. And Nick tees it up for him like a good one
2:07:50
Do you feel safe in London? No, I don't. Oh, hang on a minute
2:07:54
They'll ask for crime numbers. So what are you most frightened of? insomnia
2:08:00
He looked like he hadn't slept for a week. It could have been Henry Riley. At the time
2:08:04
Henry Riley was putting in all sorts of shifts. I think it was probably
2:08:08
in Mayfair, was it? Henry was doing overnight shifts. He was working on this
2:08:14
show. He was doing shifts in the newsroom. I still think there's a strong chance
2:08:18
it was Henry Riley wandering around Mayfair after putting in an all-nighter on LBC
2:08:24
But there you go. That's what happens when a populist when the opportunism is so great
2:08:30
that it can't catch up with the populism. And again, when Andy Burnham talked about homelessness
2:08:34
and rough sleeping, he seemed to mean it, I think. 12.39 is the time
2:08:40
Because I think he understands how easily it can happen to people. And we are, to the avoidance of doubt
2:08:45
talking about homelessness, not insomnia. Carl is in Boston. Carl, what made you pick up the phone
2:08:52
I mean, hi there, mate. It's great to speak to you. Likewise. Um, so basically, I'm just touching on the topic of homelessness
2:09:00
Yes. Um, I was previously unintentionally homeless. Um, I had a bit of a bad break-up with my ex-partner
2:09:07
Um, we had two children. Right. Um, and, um, you know, I have no..
2:09:13
Oh, we're going to lose the phone. We'll try and fix your phone, and I'll come back to you, Carl, I promise
2:09:19
Um, let's go to Souk, who's in Southall. Souk, what would you like to say? Oh, hi, James
2:09:24
So a few years ago, I used to volunteer for a charity from Southall that went out and we used to provide homeless people with meals and clothing and sleeping bags and whatever they needed
2:09:39
But the biggest thing. So before we went out, obviously, everyone had to complete safeguarding training
2:09:44
And the biggest thing that they told us, the most important thing was when you're serving these people, make sure you speak to them and treat them as if you would treat any other person
2:09:54
and don't look at them any other... Well, hang on a minute
2:10:00
Unless they look like they haven't slept, in which case, run. All right
2:10:04
Do you know, that audio clip you played, it was so shocking
2:10:09
because I used to speak to so many of these people, and once you hear their story
2:10:14
their stories are going to stick with me for the rest of my life, because they're normal people
2:10:19
They've done nothing wrong, but they're victims, essentially. maybe one thing's gone wrong
2:10:25
Like there was one fella that I spoke to quite a few times. His wife passed away, his daughter passed away
2:10:31
within a short period of time and he couldn't cope with the loss
2:10:35
So he started drinking and then he became homeless. There was another person who was here from Eastern Europe
2:10:41
studying medicine and his family was assassinated and he didn't have the funds
2:10:48
Yeah, back at home. And they were obviously funding his studies and his accommodation. and he didn't have the means to go back home
2:10:55
and he wasn't getting any support from his country. So he's still sleeping on the streets of London
2:11:02
It's like a cycle. You don't perhaps need that much help to crack
2:11:10
But you just need to, A, ask for help and B, know where to find it
2:11:15
You just need a little bit of help getting out. I mean, the examples you've given
2:11:18
are polar opposites, aren't they? alcoholism is a big deal that needs proper treatment proper help proper support but in
2:11:26
terms of sometimes just having slipped through the cracks of society you just need a little bit
2:11:30
help getting back up and through them do you know one thing i took away was that
2:11:35
there might be an instance that for example you might get made redundant you might
2:11:41
anything can happen but for some of these people they've had prolonged periods of bad luck
2:11:47
And it's just, and they have, they can't do anything about it. It's out of their control
2:11:51
Is that how we divide the population just along that single line
2:11:56
I could imagine it happening to me versus I could never imagine it happening
2:12:01
I work too, you know when people say, I work very hard. And you sort of point out, yeah, we're talking about private education
2:12:07
There are plenty of people working considerably harder than you, doing back-breaking physical labor who couldn't, do you know what I mean
2:12:12
It's like you can just imagine being on the wrong end of fickle fate
2:12:17
the fickle finger of fate and fortune, and some people just can't quite ever imagine it
2:12:21
probably as a survival mechanism. It's frightening to feel vulnerable. I don't want to feel vulnerable, so I'll pretend that I'm not
2:12:28
But, James, one thing that I realised as well, that although we were providing them with food and clothes
2:12:33
a lot of them used to come up to us and thank us just for talking to them and hearing their story
2:12:39
asking them how their day's been, and they said that there's nothing that we could do more
2:12:44
than just speaking to them as if they're normal people because they don't get that treatment
2:12:48
because people look at them funny, think they're criminals, walk past them, walk in the middle of the road
2:12:53
No, of course they do. And some of them have spent years in governments that were supposed to be addressing the problems of the country
2:12:59
and they're running away faster than anybody else is. But I mean, listen, I'm laughing at Nadeem Zahawi
2:13:04
because he's, well, he's an idiot. But he's also demonstrating something that I touched on at the beginning of this topic
2:13:10
which is the idea that we think they are frightening people albeit the person he saw just looked a little bit tired He didn even know whether he was homeless or not But the rest of us do sometimes not make the connections that Suuk refers to because we frightened
2:13:26
Frightened of the chaos, frightened of potential violence. And yet, of course, if you accept my thesis that these people are more likely to be soft around the edges than hard around the edges
2:13:37
then they're going to be even more grateful for a little bit of fellow feeling
2:13:41
a little bit of kindness and a little bit of warmth than anybody else's. I hope so
2:13:46
I mean, I just hope that Andy Burnham can do something. I don't know that he can do everything, but he can certainly do more than nothing
2:13:54
And I imagine that he can do more as Prime Minister than he ever could have done as an urban mayor, as the mayor of a city
2:14:00
I think we've sorted out old Carl's phone line. We'll talk to him
2:14:04
It's another example of a relationship breaking down. and you're having nowhere to go
2:14:09
And look me in the eye and tell me that couldn't happen to you. I mean, where would you go
2:14:14
If the relationship broke down and your partner and or children were going to stay in the family home
2:14:20
where would you go? How would you find the money to rent another place
2:14:24
What would you do? Where would you go? Where would you turn? What would happen to you
2:14:29
James O'Brien on LBC. Well, 47 is the time. I mean, understandably
2:14:34
nobody having a swing at the question of whether or not Andy Burnham can abolish rough sleeping
2:14:40
Can he get rid of rough sleeping? Can he help everybody who wants to be helped
2:14:43
is perhaps a slightly more sensible way of putting it. Brendan reminds us of Robert Tressel's work
2:14:49
the ragged-trousered philanthropist, in which it's referred to as the thing, the one thing that can completely upend your life
2:14:56
I'm going to talk to Carl, because he's been hanging around for ages and the phone line fell apart when we were talking before
2:15:01
and then I'll tell you my favourite example of the thing from the world of fiction
2:15:04
Carl, where were we? A relationship broke down, so you are... I mean, that's it, you're out, and you've got nowhere to go
2:15:11
Yeah, I mean... Oh, mate, I'm so sorry. I thought we'd sorted out the phone line, but we obviously haven't
2:15:18
My apologies to you, Carl, actually, and of course to everybody else
2:15:22
We did our best. It's nobody's fault at this end. Let me be absolutely clear about that. Heidi's in Cambridge. Heidi, what made you pick up the phone
2:15:29
Because I live in Cambridge, and everyone would think of Cambridge as being one of the most affluent areas
2:15:35
Yeah, but every... I mean, listen, Nadim Zahawi is a very big guy
2:15:39
I'm sorry, Nadim Zahawi lives in one of the most swanky parts of London and he encountered someone who looked like he hadn't slept for a week
2:15:45
So it can happen anywhere, Heidi. On that we can all agree. Good for him. Yes. So I moved here when I was 17. I'm now 52
2:15:53
And I got into the rave scene, as did many of my friends in this area
2:15:59
and there was also a scene which was very akin to train spotting
2:16:05
where people got into more hard drugs. Yes. Sadly, a friend of ours got into hard drugs and was into heroin
2:16:13
and he started stealing off his mother and sadly she ended up taking her own life
2:16:22
because of the debt that was accrued because of his habit. However, he now is living homeless in Cambridge
2:16:34
He's lived there since I was 17, you know. And I've met him recently
2:16:40
and they have put him into temporary accommodation in a caravan site in Cambridge
2:16:46
and that's the support he's got. It is mental health. And I think, you know, it's the reduction in funding into NHS
2:16:55
It's all these things that we... Oh, Lord, it's Osborne's razor again, isn't it? We're back to George Osborne and austerity
2:17:00
But one of the things you said earlier on about, you know, people with sharper elbows
2:17:04
I don't think, you know, young people at 17 who have dealt with a mother that has died
2:17:08
and have, you know, and have fought into drug taking, sadly, have those sharper elbows
2:17:14
No, I don't either. I mean, it's a weird thing when I point it out. It makes perfect sense, right
2:17:18
Is that actually, the people we're all frightened of are probably the people who are softest
2:17:25
around the edges, because if they were harder around the edges, they would not have ended
2:17:29
up where they've ended up. However, I do think that there isn't the money that goes into addiction. And sadly, that
2:17:39
is all, you know, a result. Well, not exactly all. You know, I think that, you know, it's
2:17:45
mental health. And that's treatment, isn't it? I mean, addiction is treatment and mental health is treatment
2:17:50
A lot of people can be a lot better off today than they were yesterday with the right support
2:17:55
and the right treatment. And that's obviously the challenge that Andy Burnham is setting himself
2:17:59
There's a similar thing. I didn't know him, but there's a lad from my hometown of Kidderminster
2:18:03
who wrote a book, actually, about exactly what you've described. And it was, again, it was the rave scene
2:18:09
that introduced him to drugs, and he got so addicted, he ended up sleeping rough on the streets of London
2:18:14
And hopefully, someone listening will remember that book, because I've forgotten it
2:18:19
I used to reference it quite a lot on the programme. I think the lad was called Mark. He was definitely from Kidderminster
2:18:23
and he definitely ended up as a massive, a very powerful homelessness campaigner
2:18:27
And his descent into that world of addiction was directly as a consequence of dance culture and raves
2:18:36
So that's just what I mean by how easily it can happen. Shall I tell you what they've written on the screen
2:18:42
Okay, they've written on the screen, can we try Carl again? We're just scared of your reaction if it goes badly again
2:18:49
What do you... I mean... That's so awful. I mean, I was lovely
2:18:54
I literally went out of my way to say it's not the fault of anybody. I've heard other presenters go
2:18:59
oh, you can get a man on the moon. I don't know what's gone wrong with that phone call. I literally went out of my way to say
2:19:05
because Martha's in the chair today, I don't want Martha feeling bad about things. If the phone line goes wrong, the phone line goes wrong
2:19:10
It's not my fault. It's not Martha's fault. It's not Carl's fault
2:19:15
It's probably Eleanor's fault. Carl, where were we? I'm erring on the side of E's fault
2:19:21
to be honest with you there, James. At least that would be the gateway
2:19:26
So you're looking for somewhere to stay. What have you got? Your worldly goods in a sack over your shoulder
2:19:33
So basically, I basically left with nothing more than a black bag of my clothes
2:19:39
Yes. Now, I'm extremely fortunate, and I know a lot of people in the country aren't so fortunate
2:19:46
but you know I got a very good family network a very supporting mother and she openly said I can sleep on her sofa for as long as I need until I can get myself
2:19:59
back on my feet. And you know, I will say without my mum in this world
2:20:05
I don't know where I'd be. Well that's the point, you really don't
2:20:09
No. Because what would your options have been? My only other option would have been
2:20:16
to potentially go into a hostel which cost a money or to sleep rough and to be fair the state of the hostels in and around the
2:20:25
area i'd probably sooner sleep in a tent well i've heard i mean i i knew a lad who used to sell the
2:20:31
big issue on st martin's lane actually and he did not want to stay in the hostels because he felt
2:20:36
less safe there than he did on the streets and that is absolutely right yeah i mean a lot of the
2:20:42
hostels they'll put six to eight people in in one room and you know although you've got a locker at
2:20:48
side of your bed it's it's not it's not filling you with confidence on safety and this is part of
2:20:54
the problem that andy burnham has set for himself now because getting people off the street is not
2:20:58
necessarily getting people into safety exactly right yes and i believe as well it's a factor of
2:21:05
the mental health i know we've touched on this topic before um but surely to god there could be a
2:21:12
a mental health task force in this country well there probably is you know i mean it's something
2:21:17
that I've heard politicians speak about an awful lot over the years. And the problem is it all costs money
2:21:24
And at risk of being glib and simplistic and blaming everything on George Osborne and austerity
2:21:29
some of these services were absolutely filleted during those periods of government
2:21:34
And if Andy Burnham is going to reinstitute them and reinvigorate them
2:21:39
then he is going to have to find the money to do so. I'm glad that you're..
2:21:44
I mean, because you were staying at your mum's, you could sort of get your..
2:21:49
Everyone wants to use the naughty word, actually, here. Get your act together sounds a bit rude
2:21:54
It makes me sound like a headmaster. You all know the word that I want to say. I can get myself back on my feet
2:22:00
Yeah, so then it gave you the space to do that without having to spend every penny you've got on the rent
2:22:06
Absolutely right, yes. And, you know, if it wasn't for that fact
2:22:09
I don't know where I'd be. You know what? Fortunately, I've got a good network of people
2:22:15
that I've worked for previously, and I never burn bridges, you know
2:22:19
So I did bring one of my old employers up and, you know, he gave me the option
2:22:23
of working away in London again. So I did go working away in London
2:22:28
You know, I met my current wife, who I'm with now, through working in London in hotels
2:22:35
and, you know, where I am now to where I was, I could never see myself here
2:22:41
Oh, well, and that is the point. That's the political point, is that this isn't an exercise in sustaining and supporting people indefinitely
2:22:48
It's an exercise in giving them the opportunity to sustain and support themselves
2:22:54
as you have demonstrated. That book that I was referring to a moment ago
2:22:58
I knew someone would be able to work it out. It's called Wasted, and it is by Mark Johnson, published in 2008
2:23:04
An absolutely extraordinary memoir of childhood abuse and adult homelessness and addiction
2:23:11
which has absolutely turned around and ended up setting up a business
2:23:18
that employed ex-offenders and recovering addicts earning him, earning Mark the Prince's Trust Young Achiever of the Year Award
2:23:25
and the thing I was going to mention to you there are two things actually
2:23:31
the texter who mentioned The Ragged Trouser Philanthropist there's a brilliant graphic novel of it
2:23:36
by a double act called The Rickard Sisters who've done a graphic novel of the ragged-trousered philanthropist
2:23:43
which somebody sent to me a couple of years ago, possibly the publisher, actually. And I really cannot recommend it highly enough
2:23:50
It's a brilliant book in and of itself, but the graphic novel just takes it into a slightly new
2:23:55
a slightly different dimension. And staying with novels, there's a Thomas Wolfe novel
2:24:01
I think it's called a Tom Wolfe novel. I think it's called A Man in Full
2:24:05
I've told you this before, but it haunts me. a bloke who's right on his uppers
2:24:09
but he's got a job interview and he's about to bounce back he actually gets the job but when he goes back
2:24:13
to his car it's been nudged by another vehicle into a no parking zone in New York
2:24:20
and therefore it has been towed and the simple fact that he can't afford
2:24:24
to get his car back out of the pound sends his entire
2:24:28
life into free fall that's what we're talking about, that's what Carl is talking
2:24:32
about, how close to the edge we all are. I had a caller
2:24:36
lined up from Doncaster just towards the end of the last hour but unfortunately we ran out of
2:24:41
program before we ran out of callers or we ran out of topic and I was going to use that caller
2:24:46
from Doncaster to pay tribute to the late the now late and always great Kevin Keegan who was actually
2:24:52
from Doncaster albeit that he was a Geordie and best known for his associations with Newcastle
2:24:57
his dad had moved to Doncaster I think he was born there I know that he certainly met his wife Jean
2:25:02
on the waltzes at Doncaster Fair in the very, very early 70s
2:25:05
And rather less excitingly or importantly, mum and dad knew them a bit when dad was on the Doncaster Evening News
2:25:11
And my godfather, as I've mentioned to you as well, was a football reporter in the north for the national newspapers as well
2:25:19
And Kevin Keegan was that very, very rare man about whom nobody had anything but nice things to say
2:25:25
And I know he worried, he expressed fears later in life that he would be remembered for falling off a bike
2:25:31
when he was on Superstars, for that comment he made when it looked like Newcastle might win
2:25:35
I'd love it if we beat them. I'd love it. I'd love it. And for his perm, his extraordinary and ill-advised perm
2:25:41
that was on every boy's bedroom wall in the 1980s. And he was wrong. He was wrong
2:25:47
And I hope he realised that before he passed. He won't be remembered for much, much, much, much more than that
2:25:52
He was essentially Lionel Messi for England, long before anyone knew who Lionel Messi was
2:26:00
and I just didn't want to go home today without mentioning that. That is it from me for today
2:26:05
If you missed any of the show, you can listen back on our free Global Player app or the LBC app where you can also stay up to date
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2:26:23
Tom Swarbrick with you at four, but now standing in for Sheila Fogarty, it's Asma Mir
2:26:27
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