Israel's President wants dialogue and no action| James O'Brien - The Whole Show

Good morning. It's three minutes after ten and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

Do you know, it's a funny one, really, because feelings, passions, indeed, are so entrenched and well-established

that sometimes when we have conversations about the British government's attitude to Benjamin Netanyahu's government and Israel

I prefer contributions from people who are capable of nuance. You know, I prefer contributions from people who can see both sides of some of the arguments

People who can very, very easily, completely condemn the terrorist attack of October the 7th

while at the same time acknowledge that much of what has happened since fits almost all descriptions of genocide

according to a plurality of the world's leading genocide scholars and a bunch of human rights organizations

including ones cited in Israel. So there isn't much point often in..

I mean, I suppose if you like your radio to contain... or your radio programs to contain more heat than light

then it can be diverting and we can encourage people to scream at each other

And, of course, your humble presenter gets attacked by everybody for the simple contention that I refuse, and still refuse, and always will refuse

to feel more horror or sadness at the death of two children

according to the ethnicity, religion, or background of one of them. My response will always be the same

But I wonder today whether, actually, the constituency I describe exists, because if this country intervenes as it is expected to do

with what Ed Miliband is expected to describe as a broad reset of the UK's relations with Israel today

then history has taught me that half of the audience is going to scream treachery

and even, I'm afraid, anti-Semitism, which if it hasn't happened already, it will have happened by the time I finish talking

not just of me of course but of Ed Miliband a Jewish man

and of course of the British government in fact the whole country of the United Kingdom

will probably be labelled as anti-Semitic by some of the horror shows in Benjamin Netanyahu's cabinet

and on the other side people will argue that this is weeing in the wind

this is a relatively meaningless move so on the one hand you've got people who will greet it

as an absolutely apocalyptic intervention and other people who will describe it as small beer

as nibbling at the edges of a massive problem. And you sort of don't really know what to do on a day like this

because I am always... Listen, I'm a terrible centrist. I fully understand why that has become a dirty word in some circles

because people can't be dealing with nuance and they can't be dealing with..

You could call it both-sidesism. Some things should not be both-sided. But equally, either you subscribe to the idea

that Israel is our sworn enemy, or you subscribe to the idea that Israel is not our sworn enemy

It is historically our ally, although there's that weird little hiccup that I don't know enough about involving the Falklands War

And, of course, that has been reached for by one of Netanyahu's allies almost immediately

calling for his boss to recognise Argentina's claims over the Falkland Islands

So you see what I mean about extremities. On the one extreme, there is a genocide going on in Gaza

and the illegal occupations in the West Bank are becoming more violent every day

as the Israeli election looms ever closer and whether for fear of losing the impunity that they currently enjoy or something else

these criminals are behaving with ever more violence and unpleasantness. And then on the other hand, you've got the argument that the sanctions are a hideous imposition, a ridiculous imposition

I suppose the clever bit would be it would be morally right to do it but pragmatically wrong to do it

Because it would, for example, embolden Benjamin Netanyahu. So I just wanted to start by establishing three camps and stressing that while I'm not quite sure who's in the middle one anymore

except probably me you are all welcome to call me today the people who think that any attempt to curtail the atrocities

being committed by Israelis in the West Bank any attempt to condemn or criticise the unfolding carnage

and continuing carnage in Gaza is somehow anathema or anti-Semitic or can't be undertaken for dot's reasons

or on the other side, you think this is pathetic and that you're essentially nibbling at the edges

of an apocalyptic atrocity, and this does nothing to address the humanitarian injustices

facing Palestinians in Gaza and beyond, and that these are highly, you know

what would you call them, symbolic gestures that aren't actually going to do anything. So there is an incredible and fundamental disagreement

On the one hand, people who support Israel come what may. There's nothing wrong with supporting Israel

It's when you support atrocities being committed by Israel that you move into a horrible territory, frankly

So they will claim that this is huge and that this means we're not going to be able to get medicine

and this means that we're probably going to be denied military intelligence and we won't be able to buy mobile phones

and all sorts of things will be claimed on one side. And on the other side, equally embedded people will argue

that this is nibbling at the edges of an apocalyptic problem and I don't know why they've bothered

because it isn't going to change anything. I look forward to Ed Miliband's speech

as an exercise in enlightenment. I just want to know what he thinks he's going to achieve

and what he is intending to do. We're expecting to take that live on the programme

from about half past 12. The US and Israel will come down on the Foreign Secretary

and the Prime Minister very, very heavily, but they've already spoken, particularly Israel

in hideous terms about our former Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, himself married to a Jewish woman

and I believe raising his children in the Jewish faith. I think that matters

It shouldn't matter, I shouldn't have to say it, but if everybody who criticises Israel

is going to get accused of anti-Semitism, up to and including the husband of a Jew

and in Ed Miliband's case an actual Jew, then you have to keep pointing this stuff out

to make it clear that the accusations are very, very often ridiculous

and never more so when they're being levelled at people with close affiliations to either Judaism ethnically

or Judaism religiously. So those are the three camps. This is absolutely awful

I can't believe they're doing it. This is absolutely pathetic. I can't believe they haven't gone further

And this ludicrous centrist position, which is well they can do nothing This is my position by the way You can do nothing You can watch what is happening in the West Bank and do nothing I think they didn do enough with regards to Gaza

but I don't think, unless you're an internet warrior, I don't think you can really make that point powerfully

unless you have a much clearer idea about what can be done. Some of the most harrowing testimony we've taken, probably from the doctors

Desperate to get in. Desperate to get medicines in. Desperate to get aid into the area

There's an entire portable hospital waiting in Jordan to be deployed in Gaza

Can't get in. These things make you feel that surely more could be done

But unless you can actually nail down what could be done, then your position becomes by no means insincere or inauthentic

but it just becomes unsubstantive. What should they do? And here's Ed Miliband answering that question

they are going to impose sanctions on the so-called occupied territories these are illegal

settlements just think about that they are illegal settlements you know we see um travelers in this

country members of the traveling community every bank holiday trying to set up uh dwelling

developments on land that they're not entitled to occupy even if they own it they're not entitled

to build on it and understandably it offends our every every core every scintilla of our English

sensibilities an English man's home is his castle how can anybody be allowed to waltz in on a bank

holiday Monday block off a gateway and start putting down concrete to build little bungalows

or to build houses or to park caravans and and that is an illegal that's an illegal settlement

in a way and yet when you move the focus away from um bucolic idylls in the English countryside

to the West Bank and you have illegal settlements where the settlers are frequently armed and often violent

somehow people think the moral compass should be consulted differently, that the needle should stop spinning

I am relieved that Ed Miliband is finally doing something. I am sad that it has taken so long

I am conscious of some of the complications and arguments surrounding this issue

but I am in, at the moment, the middle camp. The centrist, no, I'm not going to use that word again

because the states here are much higher than they are in most of the conversations where that word might pop up

But the commitment to a two-state solution has clearly been abandoned by members of the Israeli regime

if indeed it was ever something that they truly wanted. The world cannot stand by and let that happen

Ed Miliband has elected to make his feelings clear by banning settlement goods

i.e. anything that is being traded from the illegally occupied territories will not be allowed to come to this country

It might be really complicated. I'm not sure I care. It might be technically impossible. I'm not sure I care because this is not really, I don't think, about detail

I think it's about principle. And the principle is, surely, we can't treat anything as normal

when it is both illegal and profoundly abnormal. So, you don't need to work out which one of those three constituencies you're in

But I think it's important to recognise that if you're in one of the opposing camps

then you have given up your freedom to think. you've certainly given up your freedom to change your mind

if the first phrase you reach for when sanctions against illegal occupations

are mooted by a western government is anti-semitic then I think you've almost surrendered

your role in a debate you're more than welcome to ring me of course 03456060973

but what's the point in thinking about this stuff if you are never going to shift your position one iota

and if you are of the view that Israel is the enemy

and must be punished much more severely than this then you need to have a pretty clear idea

about where that punishment would lead and what that punishment would be

because if it takes you right to the place where you contend that the modern state of Israel

has no right to exist then you lead us into hideous and a horribly dark territory

which is why I'm still somewhat surprised at the sense I have about being quite lonely in this middle position

which is defined, I suppose, by saying we have to do something

It's not simple. This is a hell of a lot better than nothing

But I fully accept that many people will still argue that it's not enough

Would it be remiss of me to suggest to you that this is one of those mornings where we should argue

that we shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good

especially when nobody can tell me what perfect would be. I'm going to get the phone lines open now

0345 6060 973. I can tell you that Francesca Albanese, the UN special rapporteur on the occupied Palestinian territories

has described the ban as a change in UK government stance and she has described it as absolutely important

But she wants to see more. She wants to see a true paradigm shift

that ultimately seeks to implement the international court of justice advisory opinion in 2024

which describes Israel's presence in all of the occupied territories as unlawful in its entirety

So international law plays a part here. You either care for it or you don't

You either acknowledge it or you don't. You either recognise it or you don't

She sums up perhaps one of the positions I was trying to describe

but she does it very diplomatically. It is significant. It is, in her words, absolutely important

but it is not a true paradigm shift. And yet when you see what is going to happen today

if it isn't happening already, when you see the abuse that the British government is about to receive

you will perhaps understand why I say to you I'm not sure that the UK government can go further at this point

0345 6060 973 is the number that you need. I don't know what's in this statement

but I might just play it anyway and see how it ties in with what I have just been describing and predicting to you

So the Israeli president Isaac Herzog has just issued a statement. And I have it here

I haven't heard it. I stand by at the moment every single thing I've just said

about what the response will be and what the reaction will involve. But who knows? Later today, we expect to see headlines

announcing certain British trade sanctions on Israeli settlements in Judea and Samaria

If this happens, and other nations may join, I believe it will prove to be a grave miscalculation

a decision that will fall on the wrong side of history In the current context it would be a gross interference in the democratic elections of a sovereign nation and it will serve no one It will directly

harm, unfortunately, Palestinians, robbing them of business and employment. And ultimately, it will undermine the interests and national security of freedom-loving nations. Sanctions

are not a solution. Dialogue is. I say to all foreign governments, stop. Step away from the

dead end of sanctions and boycotts and turn towards constructive dialogue and towards cooperation

Okay, I don't think I need to review any of the things that I suggested or predicted to you a

moment ago. So don't do anything. Don't do anything. Just carry on doing the things that

you've been doing to no effect whatsoever. Just carry on talking to us about changing things that

we are never going to change. Let's just have more constructive dialogue about the issue upon which

we are never going to budge a single millimetre. And let's populate the cabinet of our government

with people who are actually illegal settlers and champions thereof. So whatever you do

don't do anything that might make a difference. Just keep doing all the things that haven't made

any difference whatsoever for the last God knows how many years. That's what

it sounded like to me. Tell me that I'm wrong. 0345 6060 973

How else do you make it clear to a government like Benjamin Netanyahu's

that what they are doing will not be tolerated? I mean, goodness me, when you think about

it, introducing sanctions on goods from relatively small portions of the economy doesn't sound like that

much at all. James O'Brien on LBC. 10.21. You'll have to forgive me, I've lost count of the number

of people killed in the West Bank in the latest rounds of violence. And as for the number of

people killed in Gaza since the October the 7th atrocities, which is a relatively arbitrary

point to start counting, but I mean in the context of history, if the President of Israel

is going to reference Judea and Samaria, then the idea that this conversation begins on October

of the sevens is clearly ridiculous. But I've just got the number of about 70,000 there

So there is the President of Israel saying we should carry on doing the thing that has

seen thousands and thousands of innocent civilians killed. Let's just carry on like that

Don't do anything more significant or substantive or possibly effective. And that's why I say that I'm not sure how important the detail is here

It clearly is the principle of the thing that matters most, and that's why the reaction has already been so hysterical

and to a degree, historical. Funerals took place this week for two Palestinian teenagers

who local officials say were killed by Israeli settlers and soldiers in an attack on their village in the occupied West Bank

on Wednesday of last week. So, fair to say that the president of Israel there

suggested we should just all carry on like that. James O'Brien on LBC

It is 10.32. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. About 900 deaths in Gaza since the so-called ceasefire

About 1,000 deaths in the illegally occupied parts of the West Bank

Well, no, in the whole of the West Bank since the October 7th atrocity

I mean, upwards of 74,000 dead in Gaza during which, well, about which most definitions of genocide

whether from human rights or indeed genocide scholarship perspectives, describe as genocide

And the President of Israel has responded to suggestions that Britain should stop buying stuff from the illegally occupied settlements

by saying, no, we should carry on as we are. We should just carry on doing what we're doing

Listen, I hope I'm wrong about this, but these conversations have gone a tiny bit Brexit in the last six months

I used to enjoy discussing this issue with people whose support for Israel ran very, very deep

But I sense you're not ringing me anymore. I think I know why

You would have to agree with the President of Israel that we should just carry on talking

And then I would run through the death toll and you would have to somehow find a way to avoid saying

yeah, that's okay, let's carry on. And that became clear, didn't it, about two years ago

when I tried to gently push a caller into a description of what too much would involve

how many deaths would be too many. Now, the traditional response was always to go, well, one death is too many

And I'd say, yeah, but that's not fair. You're insulting my audience because there's already been thousands

How many would be too many? What would be disproportionate? That word appeared very quickly after October the 7th

I think that Joe Biden was probably the first to make the point that by going too far in response to an atrocity, you will make everything worse for everybody

And very few people would argue that Israel has not gone too far, except the people who don't ring me anymore, who presumably would argue that, but can no longer do so with a clear conscience

because 74,000 plus dead, 900 since the so-called ceasefire, 1,000 in the illegally occupied West Bank

continuing contempt for the International Court of Justice advisory opinion issued in 2024, that all of those territories are unlawful in their entirety

So either you support the criminality, the illegality and the death, or you approve of whatever it is that Western governments try to do

to change the direction of traffic, to change the picture. That's just how I'm reading it

I could, of course, be wrong. 03456060973 is the number that you need

Sam's in Woodgreen. Sam, what would you like to say? Hi, Rajiv Kagan

Was that your name? I'm sorry. The audience is divided between me indulging in a little bit of comedy

during such a serious subject and people who are delighted that I managed to bring a little levity

into such a serious subject. But let's leave it there, Sam, and focus instead on the issues under discussion

I'm sorry. It's an absolute pleasure and honour to speak to you

for my first time. Thank you. You've spoken to my dad in the past

He was a rabbi who... He talked about when they issued a restaurant

for the... Geoffrey. ICC. Yeah, Geoffrey. Okay. Do you recall that? Of course I do. I just remembered his name, which is not as easy as I make it look, apparently

Anyway, we're not talking about that anymore. Go on. What do you want to say today? I just want to say that, okay, yes, it's just stepping in the right direction

It's too little too late, probably. Well, maybe it's not too late

There's no such thing as too late, I guess. Today is the best time to start

I mean, from my perspective, when I grew up, I'm like 43. Yeah

It was just... I was... The news to me was like, there's a bomb in Israel

this, that, and the other. two weeks

And it's impossible to find unbiased sources. Yes. Like, absolutely impossible. Everyone's funded by somewhere

wherever, like, even Bicon, you just can't find... And I wanted to go to Gaza myself

but it was just... I was told it was unsafe. Anyways, I did go on a trip

with something called Generation. And as part of that, I spoke to..

We met some people from... It's a charity, I guess. Yeah. The Bereaved Families Foundation, I think it's called

Okay. And they put people in touch. And so an Israeli will phone a number and they speak to an Arab

sorry, a Palestinian, who's, like, lost someone. And it's just a dialogue

My perspective, after looking at all the history during that two weeks

was that there's too much. there's so much it's impossible okay if israel at the time i'm talking about 15 years ago

if is like if it if the if the palestinians could please stop throwing over the bombs

israel if israel stop oppressing them and let them build some houses and let them just stop

crushing them, like, oppressing them as they do. As generations go on, as people get older

and if there's not so much violence and murder, then it's just going to be for the history books

and the extremists won't exist. It will only be, like, people's stories

like, this happened in the past. Does that make sense? Yes, it does. And, I mean, there were movements in Israel and beyond

to recognise what you describe and squeeze the extremists out of the conversation

It's why Yitzhak Rabin got assassinated, isn't it? Yeah, that's awful. And there are people in Benjamin Netanyahu's cabinet

who celebrated that assassination, of course. So I think it's fair to say that things have gone

in the opposite direction to what you wished for. Well, and right now, what's happened is absolutely disgusting

I'm so upset by what that country has done and what it's made the Jews look like

because obviously people will associate Jews with Israel, like it or not

And I don't... Your producer asked me, is what has been done or is going to be said anti-Semitic

No, I don't think it's anti-Semitic at all. They deserve it. They need it. The conflation kicks in from the criticism

so they will say that this is anti-Semitic, and people will argue that this is an attack on Jewish people or Jewishness

everybody knows it's not true, even the people making the argument. And I think, rightly, it still carries such a weight, that accusation

such a stigma, that using it is largely designed to stop people

from issuing the criticisms. And even now, I think it might be pathetic of me

to think you can say things, as a Jew and as the son of a rabbi

that I'm not sure I can say, even now. well i mean i i feel free to say that i was i was brought up i really was not forced on me

you know yeah it was it was it was very much this is what it is and take it or leave it or do as you

like and the problem i suppose also is that when you're looking at you know north of septa more

probably than 74 000 dead people in in gaza alone massive majority of whom innocent civilians yes

Talking about the damage that's been done to Israel sounds a little bit luxurious

It sounds a little bit ridiculous. But it is something that I feel

And I think that's where a lot of your upset also comes from. Because this is setting back diplomacy, for want of a better word, two-state solutions

Setting back any prospect of peace. Generations. And Netanyahu has done it very, very deliberately

and he's been cheered in doing it by large swathes of the British media and political establishment

Which is why you said, and of course America, but I'm broadcasting in Britain

which is why you started by saying too little, too late, and then I think very powerfully you said

actually, I'm not sure it is too late. You said, it's never too late, and I think you're right

You can hear the agony in the voice of Sam and many other people contributing to the programme via text

it's why we have to press on it's why we have to ignore the allegations

and accusations, when it kicked off I was getting called an Israeli shill as often as I was

getting called anti-Semitic and that's changed now because unfortunately Benjamin Netanyahu has robbed

historical supporters of Israel of validity because you are either in favour of what he has done

or you're opposed to it, and if you're opposed to it and silent then you're complicit

It's 10.43, you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Sam, stay safe, mate

and give my best, very, very best regards to your father. Mark's in Northampton

Mark, what would you like to say? Oh, hi. You took me by surprise

Sorry, it's because you were expecting a 40-minute monologue, weren't you, before I actually got around to taking your call

No, I'm not going to do a monologue at all. Go on. What I am going to say to you is

I think you're missing one very, very important point. Most of the people outside of Israel

would like to see the back of the Netanyahu government, for right or for wrong

Forget what Israelis want for a second and forget what happens in elections. We are only six weeks away from a huge general election

I know they always call it a huge general election in Israel, but it's a very, very important one

because there are so many people that want to see the back of Netanyahu

So, you know, both in Israel, but many of the diaspora Jews around the world

And I think this plays into the right-wing narrative. And I just think the timing is really poor

I'm not going to say, and by the way, whether you agree with illegal settlements or legal settlements

there are 750,000 people in Judea and Samaria or the West Bank

there are probably several hundred probably more racists than that, but there are probably

several hundred violent extreme racists call them what you want, and they are despised

by absolutely everyone Can I say, I mean could you say, or could you say

for people not as familiar with the facts as you are it doesn't feel like they are

despised enough, if you see what I mean and they're indulged they're indulged by the government

Yes. So you're absolutely right. They are not despised. Sorry. They are despised by people. I know many people

who live in the West Bank. They are despised by them, and the people are extremely angry

that the government have not dealt with them in a firmer way. But you are talking about a Netanyahu government

which is run, unfortunately, by its right wing to make up that coalition

Unfortunately, as you well know, it's always been coalition politics, and a lot of people in both the diaspora and in Israel

are desperate to get a coalition that has moderates, but gets rid of..

And it is on a knife edge. It is the problem. And I may have missed the point

but I did make a point you just made in the monologue, but you could have been forgiven for nodding off

No, no. How is it not... And I use this word very, very advisedly, obviously

I use it in its purest semantic sense. How is not acting now..

How do you defend that from an accusation of... Hang on. No, no, I haven't finished

because I haven't said the word yet. The word is appeasement. What you're describing is appeasement

We can't do what's right because that would embolden and empower the people who are doing what is wrong

Yeah, hang on. And by the way, I just don't believe, all I'm saying is the timing

is six weeks away from election. But appeasement is all about timing

No, agreed, but you've got an election in six weeks, you've got the best chance ever

of having a more moderate government in Israel. And I think then, because Israel are acutely aware, and people in the West Bank are acutely aware of the issues, not only the disgusting nature of the crimes that are being committed by these violent settlers, but of the image around the world for Jews

It's disgusting. No one wants that. No one wants it, and no one accepts it

And by the way, the Israeli police have tried to get in. Obviously, the Israeli police are different from the Israeli government, as we know

Police forces and government forces, right? So the police do try and do quite a lot

The government, unfortunately, sits there and says it's not so very popular. It doesn't get me votes

Do you not think that Ed Milban and Andy Burnham are also acutely aware of what you're describing

And they're looking at, you know, I think the latest poll showed the bloc of parties supporting Netanyahu edging ahead after months of going behind

So when you're looking at the parties that might go either way, Hendel and Zuleika, I guess, most obviously, the politicians

Yoas Hendel and Yaron Zuleika and their party could go either way. The message is actually being sent to them that, listen, you lot get back in

We're turning the dial up on this response. Yeah, listen, I think it's interesting

Edmund Vanden is Jewish. I mean, you know, not as long as people forget that

He may not be a practicing Jewish person, but he's Jewish. So, you know, you know full well, we all know full well

that, you know, there are huge amounts of left-wing Jews across both the diaspora and within Israel who were..

It used to be close to a given, actually. I mean, you know, it used to

That's why a little bit of me sort of shrivels when I heard Sam there, Rabbi Jeffrey's son

saying that he went to Sussex and it was very left-wing. I mean, you know, if you go back to the 1960s and the 1950s

every Jew you met wasn't just left-wing, they were the greatest intellectuals that the Western world had a lot of the time

I don't think every Jew has turned right-wing. No, nor do I, of course, but it's interesting that the shorthand is

left-wing means anti-Israel now. Thank you, Mark. Thank you very much. It's 10.50

James O'Brien on LBC. 10.53 is the time. I don't know why

maybe I just correctly categorised all of us at the beginning but we're not overburdened with people

who think that Andy Burnham hasn't gone far enough and we're not overburdened by people

who think that they have gone far too far that gives me some hope actually

this from a friend of mine who's always on hand when we address this issue

my reading is that this wouldn't really move the needle among Israeli voters

who are getting ready to cast their ballots as part of the anti-BB bloc

in its many shades, and it will probably embolden those who are still planning to vote for Netanyahu, Ben Gavir, Smotrich

and their ilk, but they are beyond reach anyway. So that is a challenge to Mark's ysis

that it might actually transfer votes towards that block. Of course, you don't know. That's the nature of sophology

You never know why and how people are going to vote until they've done it, and even then you don't know why

Barry's in Munich. Barry, what would you like to say? well i think the last caller may have stole my thunder a little bit but um one thing i think

that distinguishes me can i give you a bit of background first yeah of course you can my background

um a jewish guy living in munich uh i was born to jewish refugees from the nazis who escaped to

england with the help of the quakers and i i was the result of a union as brought up very very

Zionistic, and as a child, I went to Zionistic youth movement meetings and all those kind of things

I'm no longer a Zionist, and I think what distinguishes me from

your last caller... Sorry, one more thing for background. My brother, older brother

lives on the border of Lebanon in Israel, and can't stand Netanyahu, but

remains Zionist. Right. What do you mean when, forgive me for asking this, but I think it's important these days, what do you mean when you use the word Zionist

I mean supporting a state of Israel where your religion entitles you to citizenship

I'm violently against, I shouldn't say violently, I'm very much against. Passionately

Thank you. Okay. Yeah. So the thing that distinguished me from the last caller, I think, is that I really believe the single state solution is the only solution

And that single state being the Palestinian state. And what will happen to Israeli Jews in that single state

In a generation or two, they'll be in the minority. That's just the way it goes

And I told your producer, if this carries on the way it is

I have a nephew and his family who are ready to leave Israel

if Netanyahu stays in power. They're just working for their children to get beyond school age

Does that all make sense to you? Yes, it does. And what about the line that I've always found unbearably poignant

which is that Israel is where people like you go when it starts happening again? yeah

I don't think that's the case anymore the other thing I'm married to a German woman

she came over to London back in the 60s 70s the day that Elvis died identified

she came over to England then and she was visiting a friend who lived in the same place

as me, a squat in Brixton and I fell in love with her immediately

Many years later I married her but she stayed 10 years in England with me I must have saved about 40 euros on a therapist because I married my mother

And the short story is that she came for a weekend to visit a friend and stayed for 10 years in England

So I've got the German thing, I've got the Jewish thing, I've got the Israel thing

and I thought that might be interesting for you listening. Yes, it is. I think back, I don't know if it should be

I said the same thing to Sam. I said, you know, you essentially qualify yourself

as somebody who can say things that I would get attacked for saying

Well, I'd get attacked anyway, but the attacks would have more weight if I said some of those things

I don't necessarily agree with everything you've said. I don't actually agree with what you said

about the one-state solution, but I can intellectually engage with it and have a conversation and ask you

what I thought was a pertinent question about where you go when it starts happening again

And I'm more pessimistic than you are about ancient hatreds bubbling back up to the surface

not just against Jews, but even against young women in Reform UK party conferences in Birmingham

So, you know, probably it's the nature of the job that I do

but you establish your credentials to say things that we have created a context in this country

other people feel they cannot say. Yeah, yeah. Remember, I'm 74 years old

How can I remember that? It's the first time you've told me. I'm 74 years old

there we go an old and something beginning with F as we say

you've watched it so I am I'm trying to hold on and I don't think anything's going to happen

in my lifetime although I must say the results of the German elections yesterday

doesn't fill me full of hope and yeah, that's my story. And you've told it very powerfully

and I thank you actually. Thank you. No, I thank every caller this hour. It's one of the best we've done in this territory

and I sometimes, talking of pessimism which is not something that normally plagues me

but we're living in a dark era. You've got black shirts jumping out of vans

and radio presenters talking about them as if it's somehow normal or valid

You've got newspapers full of borderline praise or certainly not enough condemnation of political violence against young women

You know, it's a tough week, this one, for optimists. But I was probably a little bit pessimistic about how this conversation would unfold this morning

and I've been very gratified by you and all my other callers

It is coming up to 11 o'clock. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

And next, I suppose, a little echo of some of the things that I just said. calls for all face coverings to be banned

because the thugs who have plagued Portsmouth and Dover this weekend are to be used by certain politicians to attack Muslim women

Who on earth could have seen that coming? James O'Brien on LBC. It's three minutes after 11

and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I mean, the very unusual position today

of looking at some comments made by Kemi Badenock and indeed, at first glance, even by Nigel Farage

and thinking that they're not actually pant-wettingly ridiculous. But more on that later

Here's the first paragraph of Nigel Farage's piece for The Telegraph today

Last Friday, an incident took place at our party conference that sickened me right to my stomach

And then he goes on, not to say, describing a Reform UK member being hit by a rock

to which you'd have to be sick in the head to respond by going boo-hoo, wouldn't you

I mean, you'd have to be truly sick in the head to respond to the idea of somebody being attacked in public

presumably for their political views, by going boo-hoo, that they brought it on themselves

But that, of course, is how Robert Jenner responds to political violence against people who disagree with him

So Farage has used the bizarre scenes of a few hundred thugs in balaclavas

jumping out of lorries, fighting age men jumping out of the back of lorries in Portsmouth

and over at the weekend. And he's got a problem here, Farage

He's got a problem because they're probably possessed of quite warm feelings towards him

I mean, who has done more in this country to whip up hatred of refugees than Nigel Farage

And it is, of course, hatred of refugees that informs the kind of scenes that we saw at the weekend

That's not an opinion, by the way. That's just counting. Of course it is

This idea that everybody coming here via the only routes that are now available to people fleeing war and worse

are, by definition, illegal, creates the most ludicrous context in which a caller to Nick this morning

could say, oh, the British people have got no... Well, supporting these clowns

could say, the British people have got no problem with people coming here legally, to which there's just a one-word response

that I presume everybody with a brain would have shouted at the time. Brexit, a political project

conceived entirely to object to people who had come to this country legally

So, I mean, we can park that as the errant nonsense it is for a start

So he's got a problem in that most people will be terrorised

by the sight of men in masks and fully dressed in black shirts

taking it upon themselves to somehow police the streets of this country

Most people will be terrorised by that because it is terroristic behaviour

It is designed to terrorise. Not the people that they're objecting to the arrival of

because they're unlikely to see them, but everybody else in the area is going to be terrorised

And the mask is a crucial part of that. So let me just make a list

So that's context one. You've got fighting age men seeking to terrorise communities

while claiming to be somehow patriotic opponents of refugees arriving here, wearing masks in order to conceal their identities

whether that's through cowardice or criminal intent is for you to decide

But those are the two options. It's either cowardice or it's criminal intent. Cowardice would involve being ashamed of what they represent. Criminal intent would involve planning to use the opportunity to do harm and therefore not wanting their identity to be immediately established

um the the chap who apparently uh hit one of nigel farage's supporters with a rock was also

wearing a mask um wearing a facial covering i'm not fully aware of this story but i will be

uh by the time we start taking your call so so again we're covering his face presumably

um for criminal intent planning to commit a crime and therefore covering his face

of course the people who assaulted the young woman in the conference hall

at the weekend who Nigel Farage was very supportive of they didn't wear masks

because you can commit hideous offences in public in some context without getting any jip whatsoever

from the people who are surrounding you in fact I urge you to look at some of those photographs

again or look at some of that footage again because the background shots are what move into focus on day two or three of contemplating this and the extraordinary sight of largely elderly women either holding up their phones and or grinning manically

as a young woman is manhandled in a much more violent way than the moving footage allows

the stills footage making it much clearer. so that's context one people are covering their faces out of cowardice

or criminal intent and then you've got and that's political in a way

so it would be knocking at the door of terrorism in some ways

and the intention certainly in the second grouping is to terrorise that's the kick they get out of it

is terrorising people and then you've got my personal bugbear on this one

and that is about street crime. So a couple of things have happened

in my purview in recent years. One I told you about at the time

It was no biggie, but we disturbed, Mrs O'Brien and I, disturbed some local criminals

who had broken into a car in the basement car park of a travel lodge near us

and stolen all the bags, carried them on their bikes to the outskirts of a local park

the pavement outside a local park where they were rifling through the bags

And as we approached, they ran off and they were wearing masks

They sort of bomb around on bicycles with their faces covered. And these characters were committing crimes

So it may be that lots of people like to bomb around in balaclavas

or with their faces covered for non-criminal reasons. Perhaps they're particularly worried about pollution, but I can't see it myself

and so they have impunity and then a lad I know got his football nicked at the bus stop

by two kids who pulled up on bicycles and demanded his football

and they were wearing masks as well so that's context two so far, no problem

ban them right? you should not be able to cover your face in public

if you are acting with criminal intent, or if you are terrorizing people unduly

or if you are even suspected. Why would you need to cover your face in those sort of contexts

And then context three, which is devout Muslim women who want to cover their face to protect their modesty

And I'm probably going to get some lessons on this, actually, because I find the subject fascinating historically

It's just a shame that the far right have used it as a lever

to attack people through the lens of people who deserve to be critiqued

I used to have a problem with this, much bigger than the problem I've got now. I used to. I'm going to be completely honest with you

because I expect you to be completely honest with me. I suppose intimidation and terrorising go hand in hand

but terrorism has a political context, so why else would you wear a mask? cowardice, criminal intent, intimidation, terrorism

I historically have a huge problem with women covering their faces. I used to, I don't know why anybody would take it personally

but I feel like I almost did. And I don't know fully what the reason was

I've tried to yse it, and I've had your help in ysing it over the years

because this subject's sadly been around for a while now. And I think it was

Don't laugh. I think it was somehow the implicit suggestion that I was a wrong one

that all men are sleazy. And the only way in which you can protect yourself

from the uncontrollable sleaziness of men is to cover your face. I've read up a bit on the male gaze

since I first started weighing into these conversations. And I've also had the enormous pleasure

of watching my two young daughters grow up and see how they are interacted with, shall we say, in the public space

So that was a stupid response by me, to think that you wearing a face covering

was somehow an implicit criticism of my inability not to ogle you

But the world is full of men who ogle women. The world is full of men who intimidate women

The world is full of men who harass women on public transport

I mean, listen, this is not something I say often, and it's not something that I say comfortably

but unless you've had this conversation with young women, and even if you're married, but you've got sons or no children

I still don't think you'll be fully aware of this. I used to do phone-ins about it

and you'd tell me that the first time you got harassed on public transport was when you were wearing your school uniform

and I used to naively think that that was really unlucky. and you must have had the terrible misfortune

of encountering a right old git. I've come to realise that is an entirely normal experience

that women spend their lives dealing with unwanted attention from men. Now, you might ring me now as a Muslim woman

who wears a face veil and say, that's got nothing to do with why we wear face veils, you silly old sausage

And you'll do so affectionately and indulgently, but I'm explaining to you why I had a problem with what you do

and and in some ways i still do i still have a sort of vestigial sense that we should be moving

towards a society where women can move around safely without being constantly harassed by men

or without feeling any need to to cover their modesty the more i think cultural reading of it

is that you are protecting or you are saving your physicality for your husband or whether you're

married or not, it is for your husband only to enjoy your femininity, your female form, your beauty

But I don't know that I'd buy that really either, because then you have this implicit sort of insult

to all women who don't wear the face veil, that they somehow love their men less, or they are less

committed, or less chaste. That's a dreadful word, but it is very much a part of this conversation

So that's context four, isn't it? So why do you wear a mask

Because you're going to commit a crime. Why do you wear a mask? Because you enjoy terrorising or intimidating

Why do you wear a mask? Because I am in the middle of committing a crime

So might commit a crime, will commit a crime, enjoy intimidating and terrorising

or I wear it for cultural or religious reasons. so would it really be that hard to ban the first three but not the fourth

would it or is is that the wrong question is it just absolutely crystal clear that farage has got

a problem here because the people who wear masks the fighting age men who tool around the country

in the back of lorries hoping to terrorize local communities under the guise of caring about women

the bloke who actually enjoys watching women being attacked on the floor of his own party

conference has got a problem here because he knows that a lot of people don like the idea of men in masks running around their communities So he got to find a way of disassociating himself from that But how can I do it without throwing some red meat to the faithful

Ha ha ha! They don't call me Nasty Nigel for nothing. Let's attack Muslim women

So, who woke up this morning thinking, or yesterday morning thinking, God, all of these black shirts in masks running around Portsmouth and Dover

I, as a face veil-wearing Muslim woman, am going to be in the firing line next. Well, you should have seen it coming

You should have seen it coming, because that's how it will go. That's how it is intended to unfold

How on earth can I keep the faithful sweet, while also attacking the paramilitary wing of a political movement

that I'm a very big part of? Answer, let's attack the Muslim

let's conflate religious or cultural observance with shoplifters and muggers. Let's put women choosing to cover their faces

let's put them in exactly the same category as men wearing balaclavas terrorising Britain's busiest ferry hub

and behaving in such an obnoxious fashion that the police were compelled to deploy pepper spray and batons

can you do it or and i don't want you to feel excluded from this conversation

or is the price you pay for getting these masks off these men insisting that these women can't

Where them? Either. 0345 6060 973. He's so mealy-mouthed. He's so mealy-mouthed

He moves from talking about how people aren't safe on the streets

What about small shopkeepers trying to defend their livelihoods? What about the safety of our member on Friday

What about all of these victims of violence? And then two paragraphs later

it creates parallel societies, undermines integration and signals an outright rejection. How have you gone from a bloke in your party getting hit with a rock

to attacking peaceful women who've never committed a crime in their life, making garment choices, making clothing choices

Absolutely extraordinary, but also, of course, absolutely par for the cause. So, I used to believe that no one did it voluntarily

I used to believe that all women wore masks because their fathers or husbands insisted upon it

The only Muslim women who wore veils were the ones who were victims of patriarchy

or victims of oppression. And then I went through a period of thinking, well, they might not think they are, but they are

And then I spoke to you. I spoke to people who wore face veils and told me why and left me thinking

well, I still believe, because I'm stubborn, that some women don't want to wear them but feel that they have to

But obviously, there are a number of women who wear face veils because they don't want to walk around on full display

They like the idea of protecting, preserving something special for the home environment

And I don't actually know what to think about this. I don't think that I would mourn if some sort of ban was introduced

But I don't know if it's fair for me as a white man to

it doesn't matter what colour I am as a Christian, a white Christian man

to say, oh, unlucky there, ladies you're going to be collateral damage

you're going to be collateral damage also, police officers is any of this feasible

are you going to be able to march around the place telling people to tell? a genuine question, actually

because Farage doesn't care about whether things are feasible or not he cares only about how it's going to

play with his friends in the media and the Daily Telegraph has given him a big chunk of a page

to do all this stuff, pretending that he's deeply concerned about crimes

and then going where he really always wants to be at the end of the article and attacking women

Only with words, all right? It was the fans in the audience that attacked women with metal sticks

and their hands, which he found so delightful at the weekend. What would that actually involve

So, it's a simple question, believe it or not, after that incredibly complicated introduction

and I want you to ring in and answer it. do you want to live in a country where all face coverings are banned

Do you want to live in a country where no face coverings are banned? Or do you think we could live in a country where some are rendered unacceptable

while others are still fine? Hit the numbers now, you will get through

And personal connection is not necessary here because a ban on something in a country affects everybody in a country

But obviously if you do have a personal connection with it, then your contribution might be more interesting

And Halloween's going to be an entirely different kettle of fish, isn't it, if nobody's allowed to walk around wearing a mask

And there are some parties, I'm told, that, well, they'd be in private, wouldn't they, Keith

Sorry, they'd be in private, those parties, so I don't think that would matter at all

0345 6060 973 is the number that you need. I just want to know what you think

and crucially, I want to know why you think it. James O'Brien on LBC

23 minutes after 11 is the time. And I hope I've done a decent job of expressing my own misgivings

So please feel free to express yours. Why don't you want women, whoever they are, whatever their faith

unless I suppose it's a bride on her wedding day, why don't you want women to wear faith fails

Why do you have a problem with it? Because I think there are valid reasons here

or at least comprehensible and not unkind reasons. 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need

Shani's in Lewisham to kick things off. Shani, what would you like to say? Hi, James

First time listener and all that. First time caller. Long time listener

It's all right, you didn't call me Brian, so you're only in second place today. Carry on, Shani

Yeah, no, thank you for having me on. Yeah, I was listening to

Nick Ferrari talk about this as well, and I've listened to your side of things

and I just, I find it really sad, and I'm in agreeance with everything that you were saying

I feel like the collateral of this are Muslim women, and I don't see why it needs to be

I mean, it is extraordinary to think of those scenes at the weekend, and then imagine somebody sitting there sucking on his Bic bio and thinking

oh, what a wonderful opportunity to make life harder for Muslim, or what a wonderful opportunity to boss Muslim women around

And here he is. Here's Nigel. That is the first thing I heard when I heard about this on the radio this morning

That's the first thing I thought was that was just a way to get at Muslim women, right

But additionally, it wouldn't just affect Muslim women. It does affect some traditional Christian women too

A lot of people forget that. There are Christian women that are historically worn and traditionally now wear face coverings

And like you said, at the wedding, the veil and stuff like that, it's all on the back of that

I don't know. I mean, there's the wedding veil, but I'm not familiar with any Christian communities

where a woman would routinely come. her face in public. Yeah, there's some orthodox religious women that do. Not okay. Yeah, so they

exist, they very much exist. They're a very small community, but it would still affect them

And even still, I think it's about policing what people wear, and especially what women wear

So when it comes to summer, people are not policing how women wear, okay, and things that women wear

in the summer that nobody tells them, oh, you can't wear a bikini here

They do. I can't believe this. I'm kind of arguing with everything you're saying

I'm not in that mood, but there's loads of places you can't go in a bikini

in the summer. There's loads of bars by the seaside that will say you can't even wear football

You'd wear a cover-up. You'd wear a cover-up, right? The cover-ups can be see-through

They're not stipulating exactly this and that. They're also not lumping you into other people doing bad..

That's the bit, isn't it? Look, here's a terrorist, here's a criminal, here's a violent thug

Oh, and here's a Muslim woman. They're all the same and they should all be subject to the same treatment

Exactly. Yeah, and it's about privacy, ultimately. You said about before you didn't realise why they wore it

You thought sometimes people would wear it because they were forced to wear it. We can't forget that there are women that are forced to wear it

That's cultural. Islamically, there is no compulsion. You do not, like, you have to wear it Islamically

But if you decide not to wear it, that is on you, and you'll be judged by that by the Most High on the Day of Judgment

Simple as that. Your dad, your mum, your brother, your husband is not allowed to force you to wear the headscarf

So it's about your relationship with God. Do you wear it? I wear a headscarf

I don't wear the face veil. I went to a convent school, so I don't know that Nigel Farage is ever going to start

insisting that nuns tear off their wimples. Right, and I went to a Catholic school as well

so, you know, I'm very much around, and I was around. But how do we do this

Because I don't like watching people bomb around on bicycles wearing face masks

even if they are going out to help little old ladies cross the road

it creates an air of menace. And, you know, I'm a bloke

I'm not likely to be dissuaded from doing what I was doing anyway by that

But there will be people in a community, I think of the elderly, who really do feel menaced by that

So I am drawn to the idea of... But it's their actions rather than their face being covered

But it's not, though, is it? Because there's nothing... But if their face wasn't covered, and they were doing those same actions, James

and they were still creating terror amongst people, it's about their actions

it's not about their face being visible or not I do believe though

if you're going to go to a protest you should have your face uncovered

because sometimes they can get violent and the police will need to see who

you are if you decide to do criminal acts what if you're protesting against

an oppressive government I don't think this is whataboutery but the right to cover your face

if you're protesting against for example the regime in Iran would be really valuable, you know

Because you don't want the regime to know that you're protesting against them. So can't they just go by case by case

Well, that's what makes me think it's all a load of rubbish anyway, because who's going to be implementing this

We can't even catch up if the police haven't got a chance of going after these people

because they're massively understaffed and overworked already. And what about in the winter

Sorry, it gets really cold here, and I come from Scotland, so it's super cold up there

and you want to when you have your scarf you cover your face half of your face is covered with your scarf

in the winter in the rain in the snow that's what we do we have a hood up

so what's the difference? I don't think there is a difference really

and yet they've done it in France, Belgium, Denmark, Austria and Switzerland

I presume that if you're wandering around the ski slopes of Switzerland

and you've got your face cut I'd never thought of that before are you wearing flipping goggles

you're not just wearing a bag I presume they haven't arrested any skiers on the slopes of San Maritz

So this is why it's not about the actual violence. So it's a political bone, isn't it

It's red meat that these governments have thrown to elements of their electorate

Because unless Switzerland is insisting that all skiers take off their ski gear when they're on the slopes

then it's two-tier policing, isn't it? Exactly, James. Thank you so much

So that's exactly it. It literally is two-tier policing. They love that

They love to use that term. Yeah, but I'm in favour of it on this

Because I'm in favour of you or your friends continuing to wear it

and those men over there not being allowed to. So I'm kind of..

I don't think I can hold my position either, Shani. So everyone has to be able to wear them

It's everybody or nobody. Well, this is why I'm... So I feel like everybody or nobody as well, right

Because it should be case by case. If you're Kremit... That's the opposite. That's the opposite of everybody or nobody

Well, no. Yes, he is. I'll tell you how I think it's case by case, right

Go on. This is just me. I've got mum brain, okay? Yeah, fair enough

Right, so what I'm saying is, what I think is case by case is

I think if we're doing it in a public setting where we're protesting, I do think, like, your face should be able to be seen, okay

Yeah, I think that may be worth. And I think if you're wearing a carb

then that should be perfectly fine. You should be able to go out and complete transport

Obviously, one thing people forget as well, if you're wearing a club and you go to official places

like the post, sorry, like an airport or whatever, you have to show them your face

You don't, your passport picture doesn't have the veil on it. No, of course

You know what I mean? Of course I do. So, like, it's not about not wanting to show your face

and being totally against your face, being seen by anybody. It's about having privacy

And that's all it is. Public assembly. So I thought we might have got there then

So you can say if you're convening in public, either officially or unofficially

then if you are wearing a face covering, then you will be cautioned

But, I mean, 500 people who are not wearing face coverings, what are the police going to do about it

Arrest everybody? Well, this is the thing. I think, like, if it's in a public setting like that

then it should be that a woman that's wearing it for religious reasons

should be allowed to, because we allow other religious things being... Yeah, I've really enjoyed talking to you

but I don't know that we've reached, well, we haven't actually reached clarity on this

because the potential scrotes bombing around town on bicycles looking for people to mug or cars to break into

are going to get off the hook on this one for the very simple reason that Stuart points out

I'm a law-abiding cyclist. I wouldn't dream of going on any of these marches. in winter I wear a balaclava under my helmet

because it's blooming cold, so Farage can get lost I mean what happens in these countries then

in France and Belgium Denmark Austria and Switzerland I haven checked and I unlikely to any time soon it never been my bag But I can imagine that the ski slopes are policed by face covering authorities in Switzerland or

France. So what happens in other countries? 03456060973. Is it just a sop to far right politicians

But I genuinely would like to see some form of rule or legislation in place to stop

the scrotes on bikes most obviously or most pertinently and if I'd lived in Dover or Portsmouth

and had to deal with these fighting age men jumping out of lorries in black shirts

and balaclavas I probably would be a lot happier if they had to show their faces as well

James O'Brien on LBC It is 11.36 I suppose what I've failed to convey

is the fact that I genuinely believe that some of the objections, emotional and intellectual

to seeing women move around this country with their faces covered are not racist or bigoted

I think it's a discomfort born of whatever the opposite of familiarity is

a sort of implicit alienation. The problem is that when Farage makes similar arguments

in his transparently bigoted argument, you sort of wonder whether perhaps you are straying into similar territory yourself without

recognizing it. It is about being identifiable in public. Is it though? It creates parallel

societies. It undermines integration and signals an outright rejection of British liberal values

Well, this man specializes in the outright rejection of British liberal values

So that's a bit rich. But I've never worked with anybody who wears a veil, I don't think

if I did, I presume it would take a couple of days

to start treating each other exactly the same as you treat people who don't wear a veil

do you see what I mean? if you sit down at your desk next to a woman who wears the face veil

you're going to have conversation it might take a little bit longer than it would with anybody else

or somebody else but I don't think it involves alienation so really, unless you're in the business, like my mum

of starting conversations with complete strangers when you find yourself on public transport

then I can't actually articulate what it is that makes people uncomfortable

Why don't you want to live in a country where women wear face veils

because of their religious beliefs? 03456060973. I don't want to say, what's it got to do with you

Because that frames the question aggressively. I just want to know why you care

I've told you why I used to care and why a little bit of me still does

but why does it bother you? And I don't think it is a de facto bigoted position to adopt

0-3-4-5-6-0-6-0-9-7-3. I could argue that it's feminist. Are you talking about equality

Why don't men cover their faces? Do you see what I mean? Why does it bother you

And where does that leave you on the broader question of bans and prohibitions

Farrah is in Wandsworth. Farrah, what would you like to say? um well i think this is really dangerous because i see it as um a threat another threat on women's

rights in this country because it undermines the agency that women have in terms of how they

express themselves and i think if you look at farage's policies he wants to roll back on

reproductive rights and he wants to roll back on um the equality um act as well which you know

is about the gender pay gap and protecting us when we go on maternity leave and things like that

And I think this is a far bigger and wider issue. And it always starts small

So with regards to veils, I'm a Muslim woman. I don't wear a hijab and I don't wear a veil

But I support the right of women to make the choice about how they present their own bodies

And I think that is the bigger conversation here. Now, in terms of, I actually have friends who do wear the face veil

And there is actually a trend of much younger women choosing to wear the face veil

Because it's about, should we be told what we can actually can and can't wear

And I'm sick of men, again, predominantly telling women what they can wear

And I find it a bit odd that the less you wear, the more acceptable you are

but if you decide to cover up of your own sort of free will, then you get a load of criticism

I mean, it makes no sense. I mean, you warm it when you cover up. Yes, you are, and I don't know that it makes no sense

I think that the, that word alienation or that sense of, I don't know, almost a sort of judgment involved in it

of women who don't wear it must somehow be less devout, less committed, less chaste

I don't know what, that's an awful word to use. I'm a Muslim woman who doesn't wear a hijab

and I don't wear a face belt and my faith is incredibly strong. And I think it's about, you know, a lot of faith

regardless of, you know, being a Muslim or anything else, it's about how you live your life and what your intentions are

But if I said to you that those young scrotes tooling around Wandsworth on bicycles with their faces covered

we're going to pass laws to make sure that they can't cover their faces, I presume you'd be in favour

I think it's about intent which I think you can't prove intent

you've actually covered I mean well again you're judged by your actions

you're judged by your actions so then you can't tell people to take their face coverings off

even if they are almost certainly about to go and hit a little old lady

over the head and nick her handbag because they haven't done it yet I think you can't be that

binary in society sadly as in so you've got to let everybody

carry on wearing them maybe you can bring in legislation that would govern large gatherings of people

but that, I presume, would be almost impossible to police. I go on the Palestinian marches

I must have been over 40 of them, and there are people who cover their faces, and I think, sort of echoing your last caller

I think if you protest against something, you should show your face. I think..

Why do you think people on those marches cover their faces? Oh, well, I've asked them

and they say that they're worried about how universities are going to react to them

their job prospects. And, you know, I've got 16-year-old girls and I no longer sort of allow them to go on the Palestine marches

mainly because they get a load of really disgusting abuse from the counter-protesters, and I think that's really unnecessary

But also, there are cameras everywhere. I mean, my face must be everywhere, but I'm an adult

I've made that choice to show my face at these particular marches

I don't have the right to make that choice to my 16-year-old girls. I've heard some of the characters jumping out of lorries at the weekend

in black shirts and balaclavas claiming that they're almost a similar rationale

to the people you've encountered on the Palestinian march in that they don't want their employers to know

that they're acolytes of Stephen Yaxley-Lennon and his mates they want to keep that on the down low

it's not quite the same is it? No it's not but I think I believe really strongly

that if you're going to protest about something you need to be visible and that means to be all of you visible

Now women who wear veils on the marches that quite different What I talking about is when you got people actually wearing sort of you know dark scarves or kefirs on I just don believe in that But I do believe that in school settings you should be able to see your teacher face And actually there no Islamic requirement to cover your face

It's about covering your hair and dressing modestly. There is none. I think everybody knows, don't they

Everybody knows. So, you know, you can, if you turn, that's why you use the word binary

And I love that word. But it sometimes camouflages complexity. It doesn't here

Everybody knows that that woman over there is not wearing a face veil for any nefarious purpose

Everybody knows that. And yeah, all right, remind me of the bloke who fled the police while wearing a burqa

because it was a better disguise than growing a moustache and wearing comedy glasses

You'll find one example of that. Of course you will. But everybody knows that there's no intimidation intended there

There's no intent to commit a crime. There's no desire to hide their identity

They're doing it for entirely different reasons from the fighting age men over there jumping out of lorries

or the Scropes riding around Wandsworth on their bicycles looking for cars to break into or anybody else

And it's the same with skiers and it's the same with cyclists

and it's the same with people who are cold in winter. Everybody knows the difference, I think

Until it's really cold, I suppose, and then the kids bombing around on their bicycles

would be a little bit harder to categorise. But the women wouldn't be

The women are never going to be suspected of any of the things

that the men who've covered up their faces for suspicious reasons are suspected of

And if they weren't suspected of something, then they wouldn't be covering up their faces for suspicious reasons

What happens? You don't ski by any chance, do you, Farrah? No, I'd love to, but my kids go skiing

so they didn't cover up their faces. Well, there you go. I presume that there's some special dispensation

on the slopes of San Maritz. But I think that possibly highlights

that citing countries like Belgium, Denmark, Austria and Switzerland as precedents for having introduced this sort of legislation

is probably at best disingenuous and at worst completely pointless because what do you do if you see a devout woman

walking down the road wearing a niqab? Do you instruct the gendarmes to go and tear it off her

or does she just spend her whole life indoors? It's just weird

0345 6060 973 for you to add another dimension to a happily fascinating conversation

It's 11.45. James O'Brien on LBC. It is 11.48. I mean, you ban men from wearing face coverings and not women

Does that work? I suppose, you know, if you were really determined to get up to no good

you might bomb around the place wearing a skirt and a face covering, despite the fact that you're a bloke

or I mean I don't think that we've fallen into a trap set by Nigel Farage here because it's not

really the face veil that inspires the conversation it's the it's the thugs and um black shirts

tooling around Dover and uh and Portsmouth but then he's brought them into it I don't know just

listening to Nick's little advert there I found myself thinking oh flipping I ain't falling into

the trap of talking about this instead of talking about that. But can you talk about one without

talking about the other? I don't think you can. I don't think you can say, right, you have to have

the conversation. And if you then conclude that it is ridiculous to include women in any prohibition

of face coverings, then you've had the conversation. Or you conclude that it's going to be so hard to

implement this that everybody gets off the hook and then you find yourself wondering, what do they

actually do in France? Can we keep one phone line free? Can we keep line nine free, please

Can someone ring me and tell me what happens if you wear a face covering in, oh, Paul in Northampton

I said keep line nine free. What actually happens if you walk up and down the Champs-Élysées

wearing a niqab? Genuine question. I'm confident you can cover whatever you want if you're on the

streets of Saint-Moritz. I don't know why I keep saying Saint-Moritz, or indeed streets, when I

meant slopes. I think it's my fondness for alliteration. What actually happens

And what impact has it had on society? Oh, hang on. I might have just jumped the gun. Alex is in

Toulouse, which is, spoiler alert, in France. Alex, what would you like to say

Hello, James. Thanks for taking my call. It's the first time I've spoken to you, I think

What do you mean, I think? You'd remember, wouldn't you, Alex? I have remembered. There we go. Carry on

There we go. Right, France. We have here, I should explain, I'm actually binational, I'm French and British

We have here a constitutional basis of all law. That's the first thing, while the UK obviously doesn't have a constitutional operation of precedent. Yes

The second thing, which I think people are getting a bit confused of, is we have, again, a constitutional separation of church and state

Yes. While the UK, the head of state, is the head of religion

the state religion. Yes. It's a very different game. Right. But public areas

It's illegal to go out covering your face, full stop. However, that's under law 1192, 2010-1192

which has a number of exemptions. So, work and safety, if you're sort of, I don't know

working a chainsaw and wearing a balaclava for that, that's fine. Sports, that's fine

Festivities, so if you're at carnival, that's fine. health, that's fine, which pokes on the grey area

of weather, because weather is not really specified, but if you can say, well

look here, you know... I'm very sensitive to the cold, so I'm wearing mine in June

Exactly, just that. I mean, you'd have to show that, because the other thing you have

which, you know, is saying, how does this work? Well, the answer is, the gendarmerie

here have the right of doing a thing called a control, where they can stop you at any time

for no reason. And do they? No, but do they stop women in veils? Or did women just stop

wearing them when the law was introduced? The answer is, I have never seen in France

anyone wearing a veil. Before or after the ban? Well, you know, since I've been living

well on 20 odd years. So before the ban, you didn't see it either

No, I don't think so. I can't remember seeing it. Seems relevant, doesn't it? But it was clarified

I wouldn't use the word ban, because it's a law. It's an exercise of a law

It's called loosely and wrongly the burka ban. It's not a burka ban

It's a ban. it's actually the opposite it's a positive you have to show your face

but I don't want to says a devout Muslim woman well in which case be prepared for a control where two things can happen usually which is either you will be fined and I think the stand will fine now

You can't pass this off as a positive, Alex. This is incredibly oppressive

This is state-sanctioned policing of what women wear. Well, we are in a place where the state rules

Now, you may not like that, and you may wish to go somewhere else

but in this country... That's the language of totalitarianism, isn't it? If you don't like it, go somewhere else

The law is an ass. What's happened to that principle? Well, the answer to that is then change the law

Yes, and that is where the democracy kicks in, isn't it? That's how democracy kicks in

But I would add that the gendarmerie can recommend people to go on

I think it's about one day or several hours citizenship courses just to remind the people

of what our law says. It's as simple as that. Well, it's not as simple as that

I mean, I understand the point you've made and you've made it well, but it's not simple

It's easy for us to sit here and think that it's simple. But if it's really important

if it's intrinsic to your sense of self, let alone your cultural fealty or your religious faith

that you were a niqab when you go out in public, then it's anything but simple

I mean, this is the sort of... The opposite. It's like the Iranian police insisting that women wear headscarves

and the French police are insisting that they don't wear masks. What's the difference? Well, the difference is we have a republic, which is our republic..

From the point of view of the woman being told what she can and cannot wear, what's the difference

Well, the difference is liberté, égalité, frontalité... She ain't got no liberté and she ain't got no egalité

No. And she can't have fraternité because she's not a frere, she's a sir

The fraternity, I fully agree, is probably a slightly dated word. But the values of the republic are very, very, say Trump, everything

That's what we had a revolution about. I hear you, I hear you. And it is something that has been delivered

I've enjoyed this conversation. I don't think we're going to dissuade each other fully from our respective positions

I think the parallels for me with an Iranian regime ordering women not just to wear headscarves

but to wear them in a very specific way and French authorities, albeit the very different political and social and historical context that you acknowledge

for me what happens on the surface of society feels horribly similar

But you are genuinely, if you'd allow me, Anglo-French, aren't you? Because you hear a lot of people explain that they have loyalties to two countries

but you, just listening to you talk, you are absolutely straddling La Manche

culturally and personally, aren't you? Well, as I'm here, we've called it Franco-Britannique

but that's slightly different. No, but you are. I mean, your identity is dual, truly dual

My identity is truly dual, and I can say when I visit the UK

if I'm walking down the street or in a bus, normally in a bus

and I see somebody wearing a full-face burqa. Yes. To me, I just think, oh, goodness me

Nothing more than that. You don't get many of them to the pound. And oddly, just as you mentioned, Iran

I was in Iran a few years ago on holiday for about a month or so

And the only place that we were really asked, we were with our wives, as I own a couple of friends

properly to cover up was in the city of Homs, which is where Hormeni comes from. Right

And it has a very, very, very beautiful series of shrines and mosques

And they said, well, if you want to go through them, we'd be happy, you know, to sort of take you around

But the women must cover up completely. Right, yes. And one of our number just said

no, I'm not doing that. And they were very relaxed about that. Absolutely fascinating

Thank you, Alex. I enjoyed that conversation. And I think what comes quite naturally to you

by dint of your duality, your kind of national duality, doesn't come naturally to us

That understanding, that deep understanding of the French Constitution and the role that it plays

in the relationship between church and state, or rather the absence of a relationship

between church and state, but also between citizen and republic is very, very different

from what is baked in in this country. unfortunately. It's nearly 12 o'clock, so

would you recommend Iran as a holiday destination? Oh, to anyone. Probably not at the moment

Definitely not, man. But it is the friendliest, nicest people you can imagine, and a country

which is so full of beauty and art and things to see. It's

extraordinary. But not, as you say, not at the moment. Thank you

Alex. I'm going to resist the urge to say merci beaucoup. Oh, I

just failed. It's coming up to 12 noon. You aren't listening to James O'Brien on LBC

I mean, that's huge, isn't it? The idea that this is now

being co-opted by the sort of fascist adjacent political movements in this country

to attack Muslim women who choose to wear a veil. But I've never lied

to you. I don't quite feel what the 100% alliance with with the argument that I would quite like to

And I think Alex may have touched on some of the reasons why. It's coming up, as I say, 2.12 noon

You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. There's some fascinating research into our attitudes to welfare

to benefits payments, that depending on which newspaper you read, looks incredibly different

And there's something really interesting I want to dig into. James O'Brien on LBC

It's three minutes after 12. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC

I think I need what's the opposite of Mystic Gym? We haven't used any of our little stings for each other

Are you, are you, I'm just going to have a quick word with the producer can you talk among yourselves for a minute

Are you deliberately steering me away from my hilarious sting based features

or are you just forgetting about them as well as me? Keith, what about you mate

It's your busiest, you love pressing all those buttons don't you? There we go, it's pressed a button

This doesn't refer to anything though An example of how coverage can be

violently different of the same story. So, The Guardian is celebrating some research today

with the headline Strong support for disability benefits major survey finds. And you think to yourself

thank goodness. That's why I asked what the opposite of Mystic Jim is, because I told you that

I think I said by Christmas the political attempts to demonise people claiming disability benefits

would have succeeded. And it's already September and this latest research from the University of Kent

would suggest, oh it's not the University I beg your pardon, it's the British Social Attitudes Report, an annual deep dig into what the nation thinks about things

It's not working, lads, the attempt to demonise the disabled. So the Guardian headline, strong support for disability benefits, major survey finds

Of course, it's not just looking at disability benefits. So you could criticise the Guardian headline writers for ignoring the bit that is picked up in the second bit

of the Times headline, Cut benefits for unemployed, not disabled people, say most voters

So this is also accurate. The, um, and fair, probably fairer than the Guardian headline, in fact

the Times headline, because it acknowledges that, um, that voters now want ministers to cut benefits for the unemployed

while protecting payments for disabled people. And then you come to the Daily Mail

which somehow manages to come up with this headline, support for benefits at a 17-year low

So the same research, the same survey, in the Guardian, strong support for disability benefits

major survey finds. In the Daily Mail, support for benefits at a 17-year low

And they're both technically accurate. It just is one of my occasional adventures

into the territory designed to describe to you how utterly, utterly manipulative

newspaper headlines can be. And the Times, I think, probably gets the prize

for being the fairest, with cut benefit for unemployed, but not disabled people, say most voters

And I don't know that I've ever landed this phone in the way that I want to

but is it fair? And is it fair that the average unemployed person

is perceived as receiving too much? I mean, the numbers involved to me don't look very big

The weekly allowance that you get up to the age of 24 is £75.65

Is that right? I know you get help with housing and stuff like that

And then when you're over 25, you get £95.55 a week. You get that for 182 days

So you get your job seekers allowance for six months. After that, you can talk to your work coach about your options

And there's a little bit of me, especially, I don't want to say this

but is this just examples, is this survey just evidence of epic public ignorance

So, I say, should we cut the benefits for the disabled? And you say, no

I say, should we cut the benefits for the unemployed? And you say, yes. And I say, why? And you say, because they get too much

And I say, how much do they get? And you say, I don't know, what do you say

Because £95.55 does not sound like... Even if they're paying all your rent

with what used to be called housing benefit, even if they're paying all your rent

that's not a lot of money, is it? That's 20 quid a day. No, that's less than 20 quid a day

I'm good at maths, me. So, the reason why I wonder whether this is evidence of epic public ignorance

is because the people who I think are perceived as getting too much are the people who are getting their disability benefits on top

And, of course, the conditions that are generally regarded with suspicion, because journalists and radio presenters have put enormous amounts of effort

into persuading you to regard these people with suspicion, would be things like anxiety and depression

If you see a double amputee around the place, you probably don't find yourself thinking

well, they're getting too much money. or if you see somebody with muscular dystrophy or multiple sclerosis

you probably don't find yourself thinking, well, flipping out, they're getting far too much money

You see someone who is not immediately visibly disabled, but who actually finds the simple prospect of getting out of the house

almost unbearably terrifying, then you can be, or I thought you could be easily persuaded

that they are getting too much money. As I say, this survey is quite upbeat, quite uplifting in a way

because it suggests that the tabloid tactics and the right-wing politicians are not succeeding yet

but they will. you know this country was a place where we used to actually feel quite protective and warm towards

refugees would you believe so that's how easily and how far things can change

what i really want to ask you is what you get if you are unemployed you're being for another kicking today this is traditionally a program

where the people that everybody else is kicking don't get kicked. But this is a British public

This is the British Social Attitude Survey. Six in ten Conservative and Reform voters

want spending on unemployment benefits reduced. It's good news that across the political spectrum

you are much more reluctant to want benefits to be cut for disabled people who cannot work

That's an argument, I suppose, about who cannot and who can work. But what I'm really interested in

is what you actually get when you are unemployed. And I should know, and I can look up the stuff on the website

but I still feel a bit ill-equipped. Do you know what I mean

I still think that this must be one of the most pertinent examples

of us having incredibly strong opinions about subjects we know next to nothing about

So imagine if you were one of these people that thinks the unemployed get too much and then you were suddenly unemployed

Well, I'm kind of hoping you don't have to imagine it because it's happened to you. you get a pretty rude awakening, I think

about the idea that this isn't a very comfortable existence at all

I've got JobSeeker's allowance in front of me. I know that that was replaced by universal credit

I think these numbers here go back to 2012, so I apologise for reading those out

But it's evidence, once again, that the numbers I've got in my head are entirely inadequate

I've got absolutely no idea what you get when you're unemployed. And when I look it up and I see these numbers

I find myself wondering where on earth you get the idea that they all get too much

So that's how I want to start this conversation. Forget what I said about money, because that's 14 years out of date

for which I completely apologise. I didn't check my own Google search properly

But it proves my point. I want you to tell me what financial support you received when you became unemployed

0345 6060 973 is the number that you need. Because the PIP and the disability allowance is going to be separate from this

That is not coming under fire from the British Social Attitude Survey

What I want you to give me is, very simply, the financial support that you receive from the state when you become..

In fact, let's do it like this. if I get handed my sandwiches

wrapped in a roadmap tonight Keith, stop celebrating be careful what you wish for, you've no idea who they might

replace me with, look at my last summer's holiday cover if I get handed my sandwiches

wrapped in a, this is a genuine and important question, right if I get

fired today what support do I get, let's start there and then work

out where we go, so as of right Right now, this minute, I get fired. You know the answer to this because you work in the

system or you've recently been unemployed. I've got a mortgage to pay. That's all that

I going to mention alright My other financial responsibilities are possibly not common So I got a mortgage to pay and I got bills and I just got fired What do I get 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need to tell me the number that I get

And then we can start digging into why you, and indeed possibly everybody, is under the impression

that unemployed people get too much. So, question one, what would I get

All right, question two, what do you currently live on? And that might be the same answer

but I want to know what you have to cover with those costs. What do you..

And then, if I can crave your indulgence for the same time

where does this idea come from, that the unemployed are living a life of wryly

I've never fancied unemployment. I had a brief period of unemployment when I lived in Manchester in the early 90s

and it was just towards the end of that period where income support almost felt like a kind of grant

for people to pursue artistic lifestyles for a few months before realising that they weren't destined

So you could get your housing benefit, you could get your income support, and if you were living your life irresponsibly

then you could have fun, but I wouldn't want to do it now. I'm 54 years old, I don't think that's relevant

I've got some savings. What would I get now if I lost my job

And if the answer to that is nothing, then the second question becomes even more important

What are you currently living on? So as someone who is currently unemployed in the United Kingdom in 2026

with no supplementary benefits, with no disability benefits, and you're not eligible for personal independence payments

you are currently looking for work. I don't know how hard you're looking for work, but technically you must be

What do you live on? And I think there'll be more than one answer to this question

But what do you get from the state, from the pot into which you paid all those years when you were working

Confusion is the answer to the question that I ask, because we don't know

which makes it even odder that everybody's got such strong opinions about it

There seems to be a consensus that if I have savings of more than £16,000

then I'll get nothing if I get fired today. Do we know whether that is correct or not

We could almost turn this into Mystery Hour and start inquiring after what people's qualifications are

It is also suggested that my spouse would be expected to support me

because any help is based on a combined income. So if my spouse, my partner earns above a certain threshold

I would lose 53p in every pound to the point where it would work into the negative

so my spouse earns a decent crust so I presumably am now doubly stuck

I've got savings and I've got a working wife so what would I get

And if the answer is actually nothing then I want to speak to someone

that's been through it and crucially I really want help in working out why on earth

everybody's so convinced that the unemployed get too much. Almost everybody is convinced that the unemployed get too much

when, as far as I can tell at first glance, you're getting next to nothing

So, what do you get the minute you lose your job? I'm not going to provide you with my bank statements

but we can move in broad sketches through what the thresholds are

and what are you, as an unemployed person, what are you currently getting

Let's start with Guy, who's in Congleton. Guy, what's happening? Hi there, James

Long time this to first time caller, as others have said previously

Yeah, so for myself, basically, I was essentially kind of forced out of a job earlier in the year

due to what they deemed to be performance reasons. Essentially, the job had changed completely and it didn't suit me anymore

And is that relevant? so I mean you might have felt you had no choice but to leave but technically you left voluntarily

is that relevant to what happens next um not really I suppose because I have done a job since

then right um so I went into another job which was a bit of a kind of um the previous time where

I was kind of in and you know oh my god what do I do moment where I needed to find uh employment

that job that I went into turned out to be an even worse move and essentially I was kind of

bullied out of that job too. So now I am unemployed, looking for work

and I've just applied for the new JobSeeker's Allowance. What will you get, do you know

I think it's in the region of about £25 a week. And that is because you have savings, or...

What that's down to is it's not savings, that is just the..

Your partner works? My partner works, yep. she doesn't have enough savings to disqualify me

So what I suppose I want to know and I don't want to make you uncomfortable

is when you go into that and did you do it in person or did you do it online

So I actually did it on the online system but I will have to go for a meeting at the job centre

And can you run us through what they ask of you? What do you have to tell them

Because it used to be all you had to tell them was that you're unemployed. I mean, my father got made redundant by the Daily Telegraph in 1990 or 1991

and he was entitled, I think, to some support from the state

So, all you had to do was be unemployed, and for most people, they probably still think that's the case

So, what information did they need from you? To be fair, I would say that the Job Seekers Allowance system isolated

Universal Credit's a different thing entirely. Right. But with the Job Seeker's Allowance, with that, it was just mostly just standard personal information

They wanted to know about the previous jobs I'd worked to see if I've paid into the national insurance system to therefore qualify for the Job Seeker's Allowance

which I believe based on the information I should qualify for. So, yeah, that wasn't too bad, but I know straight away that due to my partner's earnings that I'd be disqualified from any form of universal credit

So they didn't need any information from you? Oh, no, I mean, they wanted information about my previous jobs

But money in the bank? Not for the JobSeeker's allowance. Right. And where are you getting the figure of 25 quid from

I'll be totally honest with you, James. That's from a very rough Google

I've not actually had my meeting yet. But that's all you will get. So, I mean, what about your mortgage or your rent

That's going to be up to me to sort out through other things

I'm basically at the point where I am selling personal property at this point

So, I'm really sorry to hear that, but, I mean, I have to ask you

when you read in the newspapers this morning that most people think you're getting too much, how on earth do you respond to that

Yeah, I mean, I don't pay too much attention to it because it's somebody experiencing it

I just know that it isn't true. Yeah it just one of those you just kind of have to laugh and move on because unfortunately for me reading those headlines doesn improve the situation I mean some people think you got your facts quite wrong So this is part of the point that I trying to make this afternoon

So hopefully you have and you'll be entitled to more and you'll only find out when you get to the..

when you get to have the meeting. But the distinct... I mean, listen, I'm really not exaggerating when I say

that I obviously know absolutely nothing about this. I'm even now wondering whether the numbers that I read out

at the beginning of the introduction were relevant, despite the fact that the date on the top of the article

which I didn't notice when I printed it out, is January the 26th, 2012

And that's the point. How can we all have strong opinions about this if we don't know anything about it

So good luck to Guy. Most people getting in touch seem to think that you are going to get a little bit more

than you think you're going to get. Some people think you might get paid as much as £180 a fortnight

And I can't believe I just said as much as. But compared to £25 a week, that is more

Alan's in Castleford. Alan, what would you like to say? Hello, James. I'm a first-time caller

so please do bear with me. James, I got made redundant in June

at the beginning of June. I'm from the north, but I was on a very good salary for my area

so £103,000 to £107,000 a year for the last three or four years

I now receive £93 a week. That's it. Full sub. Nothing else

is a hell of a drop. And people who complain about others receiving benefits

forget that we spend years paying into an insurance policy, national insurance policy

The Jobcentre were very good with me, and I said, look, I've got a bit of savings

But she says, no, this is your money that you are getting back

We're not taking from the state. we're taking out of the insurance pot that we've paid into

So what, I mean, and that's it, you don't get, I mean, do you have a mortgage at the moment

Fortunately, I've paid that off. What would happen if you hadn't? Do you know? Well, there have been times in my life where through divorce or other matters, I've ended

up in a similar position, going from a very high salary to virtually nothing with a mortgage

to pay. And to be perfectly honest, I depended on the bank of mum and dad at that point

Fair enough. to pay the mortgage. And also, you know, I'm not expecting a single caller

to be able to answer all my questions. So, I mean, that is your..

From north of £100,000 a year to just north of £5,000, if that is, in fact, is absolutely extraordinary

And what you've just said about your own personal history, you probably had some inkling

of what this drop would be like. For some people, they'd just presume

that there was more than that. Oh, absolutely. People are really living in cloud cooker land

They believe that people who receive benefits of any kind are living the life of Riley, whatever you want to call it

It's absolutely, abjectly not true. It's heartbreaking, really, because it creates a political appetite

for making life even harder for these people. Oh, it absolutely does

I live in quite a deprived area. There are a hell of a lot of people who don't have work

for one reason or another, And there are always going to be people that find the gaps and faults in the system, find the workarounds in any system

But the vast, vast majority don't want to be on benefits. I don't want to receive any benefits

Of course you don't. And even if you're entitled to them, you don't really want them because you don't want to be in a situation where you're entitled to them

Why do people keep messaging me to say that if you've got £16,000 worth of savings

you wouldn't have got anything? Because that's clearly not true. No, it's not

You received JobSeeker's allowance. For six months? For six months, yes. What happens at the end of that

And God, I hope you don't find out, obviously. Nothing. But you what

You don't get anything? As far as I know, absolutely nothing. Because I do have some savings

Yes. Which at the age of 56, I'd hope to have some savings because I don't want to work forever

No, you and me both. Absolutely. But we just have to rely on what we've got

But I would honestly rather take a job stacking shelves, sweeping the streets, than stay on benefits

But actually, I'm overqualified for most things. I'm sure you are. I'm sure you are

But, hey, I mean, you sound to me like someone who will work it out

You really do. And I hope you do sooner rather than later. But thank you for helping me do two things

One, get to a slightly greater level of knowledge of what happens. And two, prove that it is an absolute mess

Because the people sending me the thing about 16 grand are referring to universal credit

To claim universal credit, you must be out of... Well, you can be in work, of course, as I constantly point out

But you must live in the UK, be aged 18 or over, be under the state pension age and have £16,000 or less in money savings and investment

But the job seekers allowance, the new style job seekers allowance, doesn't have that threshold in place

I don't know, and I make no apology for not knowing because I'm asking you to tell me, not Alan, but you

Who decides which one you go on? 03456060973. So there you go, 95 quid a week

And six out of ten reformer Tory supporters think that's too much. 12.27 is the time. Mark's in Oxford

Mark, what would you like to say? James, I kind of relate to your last caller and my sympathy goes out to him

But my story goes back to 2011, so not quite what you were looking for today on the show

I love your show and I love everything you do and you get the word out there

But I go back to 2011, never been unemployed in my life

Hard worker. And at that point, I was just in my early 40s

wife, mortgage, I had a seven-year-old son and we had twins just under a year old

Unexpectedly, I got made redundant. A small redundancy compensation, but not massive

And so for the first time in my life, I had to go through the unemployment process

Forgive me, it's still raw now. I can tell. I can hear it in your voice. I went through it

I'm not one for process, I went through it, went down to the local job centre then when they were around, sat there in front, explained my situation

I was a sales manager, extractor, etc. And then it was based on annual income at that particular time

They turned you over with your savings, your mortgages, or sorry, your mortgage, etc., etc., your wife's income and everything else

They actually nailed down to what your income was. and because I was quite highly commission-based as well

my earnings at the time, and forgive me, I can't remember the threshold, took me just under the threshold

So I went, okay, look, I've got this mortgage. It was £1,000 plus a month

I've got kids. I've got twins. I need help. Never before I've been unemployed

but I active to get back into work networking I was entitled James to two P a week How did you And it hurts me now to even say that

Two P a week? Two P, James, as I sit here now on my family's reputation..

No, I'm not doubting you for a minute. I'm not doubting you for a minute. You're gobsmacked

You can imagine how I was sitting there with everything in my head, thinking, how am I going to pay my mortgage

Yeah. And this young lady sat there, and they actually then proceeded to send me weekly statements in the post, which would have cost more than that, to say that, sir, here's your two P a week

But I had to continue the process to get my national insurance paid

Right, of course. You had to be in the system, as it were. Correct. Correct. Otherwise, I'd have been affected, you know, down the line

I wouldn't, you know, I'd have this deficit for the state pension, et cetera, et cetera

So, but it gets better. So I said, look, I'm a sales manager

I want to do this. I want to do that. Right. Okay, then you've got two choices here

You can go on a training scheme where we teach you to be your own boss and you learn this and learn that

So, okay, that's all. You can just join the queue on a van every day to go down to the meat factory and do the packaging

I said, look, I want to be proactive. So I went on this course, which was six weeks

The lady was incredible, and there was all sorts of different people in there

who had been unemployed. But again, I wouldn't say that had an insult to injury

but it was certainly an eye-opener. A little bit teaching grandma to suck eggs, was it

Well, it was, but even better, there was a lady sitting there

who wanted to be an Elvis impersonator. and I laugh and I want to cry still James

and you can imagine my face there was six of us around this table

and they're saying what do you want to do I'm a sales manager, I'm doing this, I do that

I'm active doing this and they go up to this lady and she was the nicest

lady you could ever meet and she sat there and said I'm going to be an Elvis impersonator

and I looked at her and my wife knows my reaction normally, and I had to bite my tongue

that A, you didn't look like Elvis, and B, she actually gave us a rendition

around the table of her Elvis voice and she didn't sound anything like Elvis

Your life has turned into a Franz Kafka novel at this point. And you've come

back since. I did. My wife had to go back to work part-time

while I became a house husband with the twins, which was fantastic anyway

Because they were so young. That's nice. Silver lining, isn't it? Oh, mate, it was beautiful

people knew me when I went shopping was the man with the twins and then also my wife went shopping

and said, well actually, where's your dad guys? And my wife went, how come you know all these ladies

in the shops? Well I'm the man with the twins, you know

Strong marriage, strong marriage Mark. And I'm blessed James, I'm truly blessed

But the system, then when I cried out for the system to help me, it just wasn't there

and say I was entitled to 2p a week and on God's honest truth

that's why I never pick the phone up. I listen to your show, I listen to the calls

and sometimes I'm half tempted to call in. But this was the one

But I thought, as soon as I just went bang, bang, bang because I wanted that story out there

And a big taxpayer as well prior to that. That's another relevant point

You know, it's not the beginning and the end of the conversation, but it is absolutely ridiculous

It is. and the system has failed. I need to ask you a difficult question

I need to ask you a difficult question, all right? Go on, mate. And you might not like it and you don't have to answer it

and I don't want to offend you. No, no. But when you were on 2p a week, what did you spend it all on

Well, I can't even go back to my childhood and go down and buy some penny sweets

because inflation had put the strawberry salad and fat jacks up, oh, fat jacks up, mate

Oh, dear. But it was difficult and I must admit, there's many stories I could relate to that

but I don't want to take your air time. No, and you made me late for the news, but you were so right to ring in

and you were so right to think that you had a lot to tell us. And, you know, some of the things that you endured

have probably changed. I know that the new Job Seekers Allowance kicked in the following year

but that simple idea that you think that it is a generous system

when it is, in fact, anything but. James O'Brien on LBC. Listen, to be fair, I can understand Mark's reaction

but what you have to remember about that lady who was getting the training course

while claiming unemployment benefit and wanted to be an Elvis impersonator. What you have to remember is that

she was caught in a trap. No? Oh, all right. I'll nick that off James

Alexia is in Glasgow. Alexia, what would you like to say? Hi, James. First time caller

Welcome. Thank you. I think I've got a specific perspective. I was unemployed twice

in the sort of late 2020s, came out of university and sort of bounced between hospitality jobs

Hang on a minute. You can't have been unemployed in the late 2020s

Sorry. We're not there yet. Did I not say the 2010s? I knew this would happen one day

Keith, we found her. It's the time traveller. She's come back from the future

to tell us about what it was like to be unemployed in the late 2020s. Sorry, Alexis

It was bad. Yes, it was bad. Go on, carry on. So, yeah, sort of like 2018, 2019

and the first time I had a I stayed with a flatmate and it was like a private rent situation

so I went to get universal credit they paid my half of the rent

which at that time was like about £275 and then on top of that there was like a personal allowance

of about £300 a month so you're talking about £300 a month of income

but then you have to remember that I have to pay for your council tax your Wi-Fi, like your groceries, just anything, any other costs

I mean, did you struggle through? Did you make ends meet or did you get out

At that point, I did. And then I was made unemployed, like redundant

a second time about a year and a half later. At this point, I'd just moved in with my partner

who was in full-time work. We'd only lived in this flat for about a month

before I got made redundant and went to the job centre expecting it's going to be a similar experience

Like, it's not nice, but at least I'll have some income. Waited months for the application to come back

and it turns out that I was entitled to nothing. Why? Because of my partner's income, which was not substantial

It was just a full-time wage. I think at the time it was about, like, $18,000 before taxes

so nothing crazy but that was basically seen as enough to cover both of us

and it didn't matter about us being in any kind of legal situation of being married or anything like that

or the duration that we put together it was a household based assessment then yeah exactly

obviously I'm sure there's some people that do this that maybe wouldn't say that they were

actually cohabiting flatmates rather than partners yeah exactly but I didn't want to

put myself in that situation obviously but by doing that got I was entitled to absolutely nothing

So not just no help with the rent? You didn't get any income at all

No. The only thing that I turned out I was entitled to, which they didn't actually tell me at the time

was a slight reduction on my half of the council tax, and that was pretty much it

Wow. So how did you cope? Not well. I sold quite a lot of stuff

I was worried, obviously, it was going to put a lot of stress on this fairly new relationship and situation

where we'd just moved in together and suddenly I'm asking them to basically pay for things

I used up a lot of my savings, which was not huge. It was below 6,000

And I think I must have used probably a few grand by the time I had finally got another job

And the idea that, you know, half the country thinks that it's too generous is extraordinary, isn't it

Yeah. It's not a situation that I would like well on anyone

especially if you've been in work. It's so emotivating. Well, because of all the other elements of social engagement

but also, you know, this group of people, this cohort that is talked about endlessly by right-wing people

that are choosing to be unemployed, that's a dismal existence. I mean, I'm obviously going to feel sorry

for someone who's unemployed and wants to work. Yeah, and I do think that's the majority

Of course it's the massive majority, but I also, and I am a bit of a snowflake, I also feel sorry for somebody who's living in the circumstances

well, they wouldn't be on nothing, would they? They'd be entitled to the 95 quid a week or whatever it is

And they've somehow made a decision that that is how they are going to live

The level of self-esteem must be so low there to think that that's the best you can do

or that's what you want to do. I mean, it's just, I find the gulf between what the public think

and what the people who've been through it know almost unfathomable. Yeah, 100%

I mean, my partner now works for the DWP, so that's been sort of interesting, that side of things

And there is obviously fraud and things that go on, but there's also a lot of genuine need

and there's actually quite a lot of nuance in some of these decisions that have to be made that I don't think people really take into account either

They see things very black and white. Do we know, and I'm only asking you this because your partner works for them

do we know why some people go on the new JobSeekers Allowance and some people go on Universal Credit

I don't know if there's an actual exact breakdown. I just wonder if it's the six-month threshold

So you go on the job seekers for six months, but no, because you went straight on to universal credit

Yeah, I went straight on to universal credit. I think it also varies by job centre

is what I at least gather from it, is that some places had rolled out universal credit

and some places were still on job seekers. And that must still be the case

because of Alan in Castleford being put onto the job seekers. thank you, this is absolutely fascinating

this phone, and we should have done it before in precisely the messed up clumsy way I've done it

this time, because it's all very well me saying to you I don't know what's going on

but if I can prove it conclusively by reading out some numbers and then

retracting them and then retracting the retraction and then taking caller after caller that is

describing different scenarios the only uniting theme throughout this entire conversation is that

it doesn't sound very generous to me Alexia, thank you, let's stay in Glasgow

David's there. David, what would you like to say? Oh, hi, James. How are you? All good

How are you doing? What's on your mind? I'm fine. Well, James, I'm 65 now

and I've worked all my life since I left school. I'm a British condition engineer all my life

So, round about COVID-19, it's like our first lockdown. Yeah. So many clients and contracts we had

had everyone working from home. Of course. So, we started losing contracts

So, I was the only engineer in the company that worked in Scotland. so I lost my job

So I thought, well, okay, first time I'm unemployed, I'll claim a safety net for me or whatever

And the safety net was 81 times a week. And I had a mortgage

And I was told, because I had a mortgage, I had to find ways of paying it. But if I rented the place, they would pay it for me

And I thought, I worked all my days. So you got no help with the mortgage at all They didn even make the interest payments or anything like that Nothing at all I had to pay it myself But how did So this then eats into your savings

Yes. Yes. I was unemployed for about just over six months, and then, you know, COVID started loosened off

and then a lot of people weren't taking people on at the time. But then I got back into work

and I got myself sorted out. But at the time, I had to sell two of my guitars as well

which I didn't like. You were what? I had to sell two of them. I had to sell two of my guitars to pay the mortgage

and pay the gas electricity and buy food. Really? It was £320 a month

I can't live on that. I find, I mean, as I've said, every caller is telling a slightly different experience

but the one uniting theme is that the idea that this system is too generous is for the birds, isn't it

Absolutely, yes. One thing did occur to me. I'm glad that you're back on your feet

because I very nearly dived in there and said, hang on a minute, these are the boom times

for air conditioning engineers. This is the kind of weather that you've always dreamt of

Well, I mean, the last six months, I don't know how many emails from companies down south of Evo

to see London for work, you know. Of course. Basically London way, a lot from London

Yeah. But yeah, it has been times at the moment. But there it is. What would you, I mean, did you have in your head a figure

when you went in the door? Did you think, right, well, I'm not going to get less than X pounds a week

I had no idea because it was all online. Right. because of COVID

and I just applied online I got told this is what you'll get

I think it was £81.70 a week or something so I actually

asked them I said well how do I pay my mortgage they told me to contact my council

and then they told me to contact some charities and I got told

why don't you just sell your house and then try and get a council house

so I spoke to the people at the council they said well you can't really do that

because if you sell your house you've technically made yourself homeless so we wouldn't put you on the list

oh my days I thought, right, okay, you know. And just one single edge

and it was like a Domo effect, but things just got worse and worse, and you're thinking, how am I going to get through this

But I did, you know. You did, yeah, and some people don't. That's the point, isn't it

I got a very powerful message from a lady telling us about her brother

which I'm going to dig out as well. Have you replaced the guitars

Yes, I have. Good. Yeah, but not as good. Well, still. David, stay safe, mate

It's 12.46. I'm going to resist the urge to ask him if he knows any Elvis tunes

but I have just received a message claiming I think I might have seen that lady Elvis impersonator in Gran Canaria

that would be a story for the I love it that's why I love my job

imagine if we did actually find a lady that had been in Mark's training session

who didn't necessarily strike anybody else present as being an absolute shoe in for success

as a female Elvis impersonator James O'Brien on LBC 49, you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

where the conversation is absolutely extraordinary. The people who contend that the unemployment benefit system in this country

are far too generous clearly know even less about it than I do. I suppose all I would say is that my instincts tell me

that you're not going to get much more than 100 quid a week, and even that is not guaranteed

And then the variables kick in. So Job Seeker's Allowance, new Job Seeker's Allowance

that you get for six months is unlikely to be, well, it won't be in excess of £95.55

At the end of six months, there's another assessment, but universal credit is means-tested

Jobseekers' allowance depends on the contributions that you have made. And if you've got £16,000 in savings or above

you won't get anything at all from universal credit. The comment I made about self-esteem chimes with Nicola

who's been in touch about her brother, who was an alcoholic and couldn't therefore look for work in the way that was expected of him

As a consequence, he got fired. He had to live with his parents in his childhood bedroom and receive £75 a week

which was enough for one bottle of vodka a day. He died last year

And so again this idea that the system is unreasonably generous seems to me to be not just wrong but cruel Cruel Suzanne is in Hitchin Suzanne what would you like to say Well I have unfortunate experience of knowing what the payment is

And last year, my husband lost his job. He's 60 years old

He'd worked for 40 years, 30 years in the city. Never, never been out of work, never claimed a day's benefit

and we got £360 a month for the two of us. It was so horrendous and such a horrendous time

after years and years of paying in, well, for him, he was in the city and earned a lot of money

and paid in a lot of money in tax. It got to the point where we had to sell diamond engagement rings

Rolex watch, anything to put food on the table. I mean, obviously, we all live our lives differently

but you'd not got savings. I don't want to be nosy, but you can't say Rolex watch

without other people going, flip your neck, can you? The savings went when COVID came

and we had to live on our savings for two years because my husband had started a new job

But didn't qualify for... I didn't qualify for furlough and I was in a very small part-time job of which I couldn't work

And we had to live off our savings. We then did an equity release mortgage so that we could survive

But now we have nothing for our pension. And my husband said on the day he went to a petrol station and didn't have enough money to put petrol in the car

he considered that to be the day that he that was the lowest of the low

yeah he said if he could have found a way to leave the world

without hurting me so much he would have gone well we are so tied up

aren't we in our role sometimes as protector and provider but that's not what you love

him for that's not what you but it is an intrinsic part

It is. Who he is. He's very old-fashioned. It's true for many of you. And providing for his family was the most important thing to him

Well, I don't know that you've got an answer to this question, but what might you have expected to be a reason

So you got no help with... Well, you didn't have a mortgage at the time, so you wouldn't have got..

And by all accounts, you were a very well-off family, but, of course, it's Mr. McCorber territory, Suzanne, isn't it

It's all very well being technically well-off. It's relative, yeah. It's all relative. But what would you have expected a month

I mean, what might you... Because, I mean, it's really hard to know. And I think it's probably fair to say

you had very little idea about what was coming, but you were shocked by how little it was

Yeah, that's exactly it. Not enough to pay the bills, not enough to do anything

So we had to get help from the family. Yeah, but this bit isn't relative, is it

This is the thing that I think ambushed you, is that you presume because you've paid so much tax

you will get more when you need it than people who haven't paid a lot

And yet you don't. You won't. So it doesn't matter. And that's what feels wrong is that the lifestyle..

And in other countries, this is what happens is that your unemployment benefit

is linked to what you were earning when you became unemployed. I mean, very few people are going to feel..

That wouldn't be very nice. No, but that is logical, isn't it? How on earth are you going to sustain your lifestyle

for long enough to get another job if what you're getting in the interim is utterly detached

from what you were earning before. All of your outgoings become unfeasible. Believe me, we didn't have a flash lifestyle

Everyone's just heard you say you had a Rolex. Everyone's just said you had a Rolex, but that could be 20 years old

Exactly. It was 20 years old. There we go, I knew it. The engagement ring was 15 years old

We thought there were two things worth, as it happens, the diamond engagement ring was worth a quarter of what we paid for it

And this is the thing that you discover in a country where the majority of people think that the system is far too generous and that people who are receiving support while unemployed are somehow swinging the lead or taking the mickey I think in France it no comfort to you this Suzanne at all but in France I think you get 90 of what you were previously earning for that first few months because they just recognise that

And do you know what is heartbreaking here? And it's often the way, isn't it, with a country that's been gaslit by right-wing media for 50 years, is that everybody's shooting themselves in their own foot

the other you you know they're there but for the grace of god i'm not talking to suzanne now i'm

talking to you when you become unemployed if you become unemployed if your husband becomes unemployed

if your father becomes unemployed then the fact that we've allowed them to create this narrative

of of of largesse means that you're going to have experiences like suzanne and her husbands when it

actually happens to you whereas in other countries um the system is quite generous and so it should be

instead of being this weird, desiccated little island where we look at every scenario

and everything that's going on in the country and frame our responses to it

according to the exceptions rather than the rules. It is 12.56. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC

I really enjoyed this week's full disclosure. I recorded one yesterday with Gary Kemp

that was one for the ages. That man's bank of anecdotes. I like to think I've got a few decent anecdotes

but Gary Kemp's bank of anecdotes is off the charts and his new book so what i don't want to spoil it the the full disclosure

but he bought brian epstein's old contacts but old address book can you imagine that that the

manager of the beatles and he's put together a whole book based on what's in it and it's magical

it's a beautiful interview but this week's with jay rayner is really good as well and i haven't

had a chance to play you a little bit of it so i'm going to do it now do people alert you to things

that are going on to people i mean obviously people are going to say oh my local such and such is amazing you must come here but what makes your antennae twitch

I'm looking for the story yeah because in essence a restaurant is a table of chair and a plate of

food and how are you going to make that work over a thousand words there needs to be a story and

what is that story I you know there are any number of gastropubs in the UK and they've all got the

same bloody menu um and I can tell you what it is I can tell you the British shatter the British

gastropub menu is a terrine a risotto and a goat's cheese and beetroot salad to start a sea bass pork

belly and ribeye steak for maine and a lemon tart chocolate fondant um and a sticky toffee pudding

for dessert that is the british gastropub menu and loads of places do it really well i have nothing

to say if trying to review it however good it is however good it is all bad well maybe you get a

a piece out of it being awful well maybe you've got to be careful punch punch up not down yes

exactly well we'll come to well squeeze that in before the end um yeah yeah you've got to look for

a story and multiple sources part of it's just journalism you're you're on certain websites

you're getting press releases i'm getting emails from readers some of which really do pay off

some of which don't um keep your ear to the ground and you know try not to do the obvious too often

because there's a group of readers who read everything and therefore get irritated when you all review the same

place, even though theatre critics all review the big West End opening

And I've done that job as well at one point. And it's going to

happen. Sometimes we're all going to hold... I can't believe you're doing Hamlet as well. Hamlet's opened the RSC and you've all

gone. You know, Simpsons in the Strand opened and we all went

to Simpsons in the Strand. But it's also an opportunity to find other places

that other people perhaps haven't done. My guest on this week's Full Disclosure

a lovely bloke, a beautiful writer as well and a great broadcaster

Don't you just hate those guys? If you missed any of today's show, you can listen back on our..

I can't do too badly. I can't stay, I've got a newspaper column to write

If you missed any of today's show, you can listen back on our free Global Flare app

or the LBC app, where you can also stay up to date with all the latest news, videos and opinions

You can listen to a range of podcasts, including James O'Brien Daily and indeed Full Disclosure

So do download the official LBC app. It's free, and you can get it from your app store now

Coming up at four on LBC, it's Tom Swarbrick, but now it's time for Sheila Fogarty

Yeah, we've just been having a discussion. James O'Brien on LBC