Is this the beginning of the end for Reform? | James O'Brien - The Whole Show

Three minutes after 10 is the time. If you do see Diane Abbott, then do pass on that interview we conducted yesterday with Luke Harding about the sheer scale of Donald Trump's betrayal of Ukraine and Vladimir Putin's warmongering dishonesty and depravity in the context of the West

But I will be paying precisely as much attention to Diane Abbott's stupid comments as I would to stupid comments by any other backbench MP with absolutely no prospect of getting anywhere near power at any point in the near or distant future and who is currently clinging on to her party membership by her fingernails

I'll leave you to wonder what it is about Diane Abbott that prompts extraordinary levels of attention

from some corners of the media, corners of the media that would appear to have learned nothing

from their own coverage of the Cambridge professor, Jason Arday. What is it about Diane Abbott, I wonder

that means she's going to get more attention for saying these things than, for example, Jeremy Corbyn would, a former Labour leader

I can't quite put my finger on it at the moment. I'll leave you to wrestle with it

Maybe, I'm sure it can't be that difficult, can it? Anyway, four minutes after ten

In the context of that conversation, I will later in the programme explain to you the meaning of the word tanky

which has come quite late to me in life as a neat way of understanding why some people seem to be unable

to move beyond loyalty to what was the Soviet Union and ally themselves instead with observable reality

You've also got the Nathan Gill question. Why would anybody pay more attention to Diane Abbott

than to a man who literally took bribes from a Kremlin stooge

in return for parroting Kremlin talking points? I don't know whether it works in Diane Abbott's favour

or whether it works against her that she appears to have parroted Kremlin talking points for free

just like Nigel Farage does. We must presume, of course, his finances remain somewhat opaque

We know that he likes to keep enormous donations secret from foreign-based billionaires

and therefore we can but speculate about what other enormous sums of money

he may have received from other sources and has more successfully managed to keep secret

than the £5 million that he trousered from Christopher Harbourn in return for

and then just insert whatever answer you can remember him giving, because there have been, to the best of my knowledge, at least three

it's the question I get asked more I mean you've distracted me already this is why I've stopped

looking at my messages when I come on first thing in the morning I wait until the first hydration break you've taken it a little bit too seriously I'll run through some of the funny

answers in a moment but it wasn't yoga rob in Leeds it was Tai Chi and no I'm never going to

tell you I probably will but no I'm never going to tell you what happened at Tai Chi the question

I get asked most often right now, if I am lucky enough to bump into you when I'm out and about

is do you think he's finished? Do you think Farage has fudged it? Do you think reform are done for

And it's one of those moments where I share with you one of my all-time favourite quotes from

popular culture that we could probably all recite together these days. It's the hope that gets me

It's not the despair. I can deal with the despair. It's the hope that gets me every time

Listen, why does it matter? Answer, have a look at the United States of America

You have a man in the White House who, the kindest thing about whom you can say

if we're going to talk about Russia a bit, is if he were a Kremlin puppet

what would he have done differently from what he has done with regards not just to Ukraine

but of course the broader spectrum of world affairs. If he were actually being blackmailed or bribed by Vladimir Putin

How would he have behaved differently on the world stage, but particularly with reference to Ukraine since the illegal invasion

And the answer is really hard because you can't really think of anything he would have done differently in the event that he was actually on the Kremlin payroll

So that's one of the reasons why you need to worry about the prospect of a reformed UK government

They have, you know, they have form in this field, not just for transferring secret and enormous sums of money from foreign-based billionaires, but also for transferring sums of money in a previous incarnation when they called themselves, I think, UKIP

But Nathan Gill was both a protege and a close friend and a very close colleague of Nigel Farage

And throughout, he was parroting Kremlin talking points in return for cash, in return for used notes passed under tables

While, to be fair, to the best of our knowledge, Farage was saying almost exactly the same thing without needing to be paid for it

That's just one reason why you should be worried. The other, of course, is that, again, a quick glance over the Atlantic and you'll see the utter destruction of truth and evidence

I think we're up to five. Let me just check with my top team of operatives. Have we got five journalists now banned from the Reform UK conference literally for telling the truth

I said I wasn't going to talk about Russia much today, but that's a tiny bit Stalinist, isn't it

Why have you been banned from the party conference? Well, I reported something. Oh, dear

But did it turn out not to be true? Oh, no. It turned out to be completely true. That's why they've banned me

Six. I tell it like we're up to six. Six journalists currently banned from the Reform UK conference for telling the truth

And that's the ones that applied. I think we can be fairly confident about what would happen if I were to chuck my hat into that particular ring

So we're up to six. The party of free speech has currently banned six first-class journalists from its own conference

So the question I get asked most often is not, are you, writes Judgment Dave, Nigel Farage

Because that might explain why I've never seen you in the same room together since 2014

And it is not, when are you going to interview him on your show again? Because my door is always open, Sam

My door is always open, perpetually and permanently. Steve in Nottingham asks

is it, what is your sprouts recipe? No, I share that regularly, Steve

There would be no need to buttonhole me in private or indeed in public to get the answer to that question

And full marks to the 37 people who have suggested the question I get asked most often in public by you

is, what was it like? I will explain that one day for new listeners

but for old listeners, let's consider it a little bit of a niche comment

Ten minutes after ten is the time. And I don't know, is the answer

I mean, in a logical universe, they are finished. In a universe or in a country that cares

about £5 million worth of secret donations, then obviously they're finished. In a country that cares about deep and long-standing associations

with people that take bribes from a foreign power or from a representative of a foreign power

then obviously they would be finished. in a country that cared about councils being run by 12-year-olds

and driven to ridiculous positions of infighting and absurdity, with councillors literally complaining

that it's not fair to hold a council meeting because they've got no idea what's going on

and they don't understand anything, in a country that cared about such things

then they would, of course, be finished. But what have we learned

And of course he still boycotting the BBC Farage but he managed to simultaneously boycott and give an interview to them yesterday in which he complained about all the people who complain about him How many I mean good lord Nadine Doris spent almost her entire career as Culture Secretary

trying to get me sacked from this job. Little old me! Little old me

Lying about me in select committees, which are, of course, covered by parliamentary privilege

so not subject to libel proceedings, unluckily, and trying to get me sacked, contacting badgering my bosses here at LBC Towers

to actually get me sacked. But no, it's them that are constantly complained about

I think I've got complaints in at the moment, haven't I, from 30P Lee for calling Nigel Farage names

That's how thick-skinned and tough they are and dedicated to free speech

Six journalists currently banned. Actually, the question I get asked second most

you're quite right, a lot of you have picked up on this, is where did you get your giant coffee mug

To which the answer is, A, it's tea, and B, it was specially commissioned and the company went bust shortly afterwards

So as far as we're aware, it will be impossible to emulate or recreate. So, this week, the question assumes a new resonance

not just because they're holding a party conference in a city where Honest Bob Jenrick recently complained

there were too many black and brown faces, but also because they have been overtaken in the polls

for the first time by the leader of the Conservatives, Cami Bainanoc, who pledged about a year and a half ago

that there was absolutely no way she would be reshuffling her shadow cabinet before the next general election

and reshuffled her shadow cabinet last weekend, promoting the man who was number three in the Treasury

when Liz Truss set fire to the nation's finances to shadow chancellor

And they've overtaken restore, reform. Restore's the other one, led by the bloke who

I think he phoned the police when some charity rowers were spotted off the coast of Great Yarmouth

because he thought they were refugees. I mean, if you look at where Great Yarmouth is, the idea that you could actually row there

is a magnificent confection. But I guess brains have never been the strong suit

of people attracted to that kind of politics or that kind of rhetoric. And that's the tragedy as well, in a way

in that there are lots of people who don't care about any of these things. They don't care about secret gifts

They don't care about Russian bribes. They don't care about counseling competence

They don't care about, well, they do care about racism. We'll get to that. But they don't care about all of the other reasons

that might, in a normal universe, hold an organisation or hold a political party below the waterline

So when people ask me, do you think he has fudged it

I answer, no, I don't. And the reasons are bleak. I mean, he is obviously losing his touch

and it is obviously a one-man band, but imagine a hideous crime were committed tomorrow

by somebody with brown or black skin. Just imagine. that's all it has to be doesn't have to be somebody who's recently arrived here doesn't

have to be somebody who is an asylum seeker it doesn't have to be somebody who um has any criminal

record or form or whatsoever i just imagine if a terrible crime were committed tomorrow

by somebody with brown or black skin and i still think that our media would be calibrated to provide

coverage to the man who has absolutely nothing to say about crimes committed by white people

but where the rest of us see horror and tragedy sees opportunity and self-advancement

So if that were to happen on a regular enough basis, I think he may be able to regain the political momentum that has deserted him

The finances, I mean, you know, I thought I lived in a country

where small C conservatives really cared about this stuff. And if somebody is taking £5 million in secret from a mega-rich

foreign-based billionaire, that would be the end of their political career. But you're talking about people who profess to care deeply

about Keir Starmer's spectacles, and who now profess to care, not a jot

about Nigel Farage's £5 million. So, I don't think it is game over

despite some members of the media who have been much more sympathetic to the characters involved

and the parties, the various parties he has led. I don't think it is over

Other pollsters have still got them ahead of the Tories, but Labour under Andy Burnham have pushed them into second place, perhaps unexpectedly

Certainly seemed a long way off under the last Labour leader, but these bounces are rarely permanent

although the Andy Burnham one is sustaining in such a way that the right-wing media is now not just sharpening their cudgels

but very, very rapidly unsheathing them. I just don't think, and maybe I'm too pessimistic

The fact that, you know, we look at Donald Trump's approval ratings and everybody else says they've gone through the floor

and I say, how can anybody still support him? How can anybody still think that Donald Trump

is anything other than a depraved lunatic? There's a war in Iran

absolute gold standard of the things that he promised he'd never do

Pointless foreign wars, which he's losing, by the way. The abandonment of Ukraine

Before you even look at domestic politics, how could anybody in Britain still hold a torch for Donald Trump

who has betrayed Ukraine, something that was a rare example in British politics of unity

Although, of course, Farage tried to blame the illegal invasion of Ukraine on Ukraine

just as he did with the illegal invasion of Crimea. Then you've got Iran, something that Farage felt that we should have been getting involved in

but which events have taught us has been and was always destined to be an unmitigated disaster

And yet still, the idea that there is something admirable, something desirable

something impressive about the man sustains, it persists. And that's the main reason why I'm pessimistic about all of the trouble surrounding finances

surrounding incompetence, surrounding infighting, surrounding all of the things that we've listed

I still don't think that they are hold below the waterline. I still don't think that you are or we are currently witnessing

the end of the greatest political grift of our time. It is 17 minutes after 10

You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. And the question is

as Kemi Badenock, of all people, overtakes, or Kemi Badenock's Conservatives overtake Reform UK

in an opinion poll for the first time in more than 500 days

is this the beginning of the end for reform? Or do you, like, I mean, obviously this is one of those

phonies where I want you to talk me out of my own sincerely held position

I'm probably, I mean I can't say 52-48 can I? Because it's actually sadly

a little bit deeper than that but I'm 60-40 I'm certainly swayable

and do you know what really breaks my heart? And this is the thing I'll never forgive the

far right for, whether they're operating in the media or whether they're operating in

politics. It spoils your view of your own people, doesn't it? It spoils your view of your own fellow citizens

the fact that people can really forgive almost anything if the racism

is offered to them in an attractive enough way. That the thing that I think is hard to undo and hardest to forgive It happened in families The amount of messages I get of people who are falling out with their own family because they swallowing all the nonsense that being shoved in their direction

by people desperate that we don't talk about all of the things that we talked about yesterday

like a fair distribution of wealth or equality or decency. Let's just point at some people

and shout about how much we hate them. It breaks my heart to see that happen

On a national level, God knows what it would be like on a family-based level

but do you think they are, do you think we are witnessing the beginning of the end

Because under almost all circumstances, the point at which you get overtaken by a party led by Kemi Badenot

would be the point at which you would either pack up and go home

or start, if you're not the top man, start agitating for change. 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need

What do you reckon? The Conservatives have overtaken Reform UK in an opinion poll for the first time in more than 500 days

Farage is looking thin-skinned, petulant and weak. He's looking very small. He's looking to be all of the things that some of us have always known he is

Whiny, small, self-pitying. Self-serving and self-pitying always go hand in hand. But will it matter enough for the kind of people minded to vote for him to change their mind

I think that's it, really. Hit the numbers now, you will get through. 0345 6060 973

Do you think it's a little bit too soon to write the political epitaphs

for Nigel Farage in person or Reform UK in general? 0345 6060 973

James O'Brien on LBC. I should have added to the list. Even the Sun newspaper today carries a column

in which it's pointed out that it's a party that has absolutely nothing to offer

beyond complaining about immigration in general and small boats in particular. So is it possible that the balloon..

Here it is. So apart from the migrants, what else are reform about

To huge swathes of undecided voters like me, writes Colin Robertson, eager to know, what else have you got

You can answer that question as well, I suppose. What else have they got? Because I'm not sure that matters

I'm not sure that the absence of anything else matters. I think if Donald Trump has taught us anything, it is that if you offer up demonization of the other, if you offer up various forms of racism, then many, many people, I used to think it was between 10 and 20 percent of a population, but it might be between 10 and 30

many many people will forgive you almost anything else up to and including um professing to care

passionately about kia starmer's spectacles but not giving a hoot apparently about a secret five

million pound donation from a foreign-based billionaire so that is the um that's the fear

and that is why when people ask me what i think and ask me whether or not i think we are looking at

the beginning of the end, I say no, because if you've got 22% that can forgive everything that

has happened so far, and then the possibility of people creeping or crawling back in the coming

months, particularly if there is an opportunity for him to capitalise and exploit a terrible

tragedy, as he did with the killing of Henry Novak, against, of course, the express wishes

of Henry Novak's family, then that 22% can start climbing again. And that is when the prospect or the conversation

about this being somehow the beginning of the end will fall apart like a cheap suit

For the avoidance of doubt, I obviously want to be wrong, but regular listeners to the programme

will be supremely unsurprised to learn that I don't think I am. Steph's in Peterborough

Steph, what would you like to say? Oh, blimey, that was quick. That's how it works, Steph

Well, your monologue sometimes goes on for days. No, this is very true

You got on before 11 o'clock. It's a record. Go on, answer the question. Right, OK

I'm going to come to this in a different angle. All those that left the Tories

who were a little bit more on the right, left to Reform UK

Not all of them, but a lot of them. Well, the more the right, right

the sort of right, I mean, because she was a woman, because she's black, they've got the Lib Dems who have took on the more moderate Tories

And Temi has said now that she doesn't want centrists in her party

She's threatened MPs not to go down the Net Vero route or so they won't stand for her

She's going hard on immigration. They're all going hard on immigration. Yeah, it's awful

Apart from the Lib Dems and the Greens, but they're all going hard on immigration. so basically

what I think has happened is anybody that votes reform we all know

what sort of character they are well let me read you something because you say that and I think

I do and I'm probably not exactly winning over people who insist

that they are repulsed by all the hang on I need to say that stop talking when I'm interrupting you

stop interrupting me when I'm interrupting you I think that if you're voting for this party

you are either racist or very comfortable or supremely untroubled by racism

because of all the comments about black faces and brown faces, whether they're on the streets of Birmingham

or whether they're in television adverts. But I could be wrong. I mean, those are the people I don't really get to talk to

who insist, no, no, no, I hate all the racism. It's all the other stuff I love. Yeah, I think reform have gone too far, to be honest with you

I mean, I know a lot of people over the years who love black music, everything like that

and they're coming out with this thing. And it's not just stop the boats now, James

No, of course it isn't. It's also deport immigrants. And Katie Lamb said something about even people that were living in the UK for a long while

needs deporting to actually put the balance back into the country. Can you remember that, Katie Lamb

I think I can, yeah. I mean, obviously I'm going to have to correct you if you've slightly misremembered

but I don't think that you have. No. So basically I think, to cut a long story short, which I find very difficult like you

is the fact that you've got the Tories that are in the middle

the more what we consider as that right wing, centre right. Some of them have gone to Lib Dems

Some of them have gone to Reform. And I think the ones that have gone to Lib Dems or the more moderate Tories have gone back to the Tories

I don't think it's going to affect the Labour vote, but I do think that her rhetoric

and I'm sorry to say this, her rhetoric is really offensive to me

I'm disabled, so I don't want to get upset. It's all right

My son's got autism, and the horrible, horrible things that's coming out of the Tory party

Chris Philp, all of them. To be honest with you, James, I've always voted Labour

but, you know, the toys aren't the toys anymore. And I think you've said that before

So you're suggesting... She's took it so far to the right. So they in the same trough then So that one of the reasons why she cannibalising some of reform support And the numbers are fairly small because she is Yeah the disability thing the pit thing is absolutely disgusting

It is awful. I mean, I'm on pit and I don't choose to be on pit

Demonisation of the disabled is incoming. I mean, it was beginning to appear under the last incarnation of the Conservative Party

but you're right and we warned about it and we said look out for that. Mel Stride I think led the way on that sense that everybody must be swinging the lead

in the same way that everybody who has come here from another country must be a criminal

then everybody who is claiming a disability benefit must be a fraudster

It's so boring but it's so necessary to talk about. It's so boring when you can see it and hear it happening

and you've got somebody just going, oh yes, well, you know, there are no such thing as ADHD

everybody throughout history who goes down the line of trying to tar everybody

with the behaviour of one miscreant is a weapons-grade wrong-un. But it works, and that's why I'm more pessimistic than you are

I don't know. I mean, it's that lovely lady in Telford, isn't it, who fit the category once

Who are these people that don't know how to choose or don't know who to choose between the Conservatives and reform

Maybe Steph's nailed it. It's just different flavours of unpleasantness. And there's nobody there, then

if you were a lifelong Tory voter who either isn't racist or recognises the idiocy of Brexit

the absolute truth of climate change science and the importance of the European Convention on Human Rights

where the hell do you go? I mean, you're terrified by public ownership

And it's not a criticism. You're perfectly entitled to be. You find the idea of public ownership absolutely anathema

But you recognise that Brexit was stupid, you hate racism, and you don't enjoy the demonisation of the disabled

And you think that, like Winston Churchill, the European Convention on Human Rights was a really good thing

Oh, and you recognise the necessity of addressing climate change. Even if we can't fix the whole thing

we should do everything we can to fix whatever tiny bit of it that we could. Where the heck do you go

And where does that play into the question of whether or not we are perhaps witnessing

the beginning of the end of reform. And remember, one of the best ways to talk me out of this

is to tell me why you are confident they're still poised to govern

You are confident that we ain't seen nothing yet. It's half past ten. Dominic Ellis has your headlines

James O'Brien on LBC. It is 10.33 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

where the news that Kemi-Bader-Knox Tories have overtaken Nigel Farage's reform in one poll

has prompted some speculation that this, and of course the broader problems that he faces

with regards to party funding and indeed personal secret donations and of course the sense of, I don't know what you'd call it

just the sort of, they all seem so angry all the time. I was looking at something extraordinary this morning

If I told you that a previously very high profile British politician

has started complaining about the Normans. Which politician... You can only play this game if you don't know the answer

So someone very Brexity, but quite... See, I'm going to say quite respectable

and then you're going to find out who it is, and you're going to say, oh, my God, James, I can't believe you called him respectable

But technically respectable, a very Brexity, formerly prominent politician who has now started complaining about the Normans

partly in response to the arrival of the Bayer tapestry on these shores

Who would you guess? Who would you go for first? But the idea that Kemi Bader not, as Steph just articulated

has somehow successfully tempted relatively toxic voters back to the Tory fold

is a thought I hadn't had, actually, before. Her personal popularity has risen because she provides plenty of popcorn at PMQs, although that appears set to change after yesterday's performance

And some of the stuff she's saying about climate change and the European Convention on Human Rights, despite being hideous, is clearly popular

And therefore, I hadn't really thought of it happening this way. the real threat to Nigel Farage

is not coming from the bloke in Great Yarmouth who phones the police when charity rowers go by

or the Labour Party resurgent or at least revitalised under Andy Burnham

It could be coming, in fact, from Kemi Badenoch. Mo's in Birmingham

Mo, are we jumping the gun? Well, not we, because I'm quite pessimistic

but are people jumping the gun? Are predictions of his political demise somewhat premature

well if I were a gambling man yes I don't think he's going to be PM

did you ever? yes when? six months ago did you really? yes

ok that's interesting because I thought Keir Starmer was not going to be

well I thought Keir Starmer was going to be Labour leader until the next election

and because of his personal standing with the electorate he and you know the antipathy he caused amongst

would-be Labour voters, I just thought that opened a very narrow passage

for a Farage premiership. It would have been messy. I think the next Parliament

is going to be messy, James. Very, very messy. Because the Greens would have cannibalised

some of the Labour vote because they were so unhappy with Keir Starmer about many things

But I suppose in that one by-election that they won, most obviously it would have been Gaza

Yeah, all sorts. I think the SNP in Scotland are going to, I think, make a bit of a comeback

The Greens, some independents. I even see the Tories scrapping away with the Lib Dems

and a few seats exchanging around through there because, you know, the boundaries are so skinny

That last election was such a freakish election in so many regards

The general election. Yeah, that general election. Yeah, the loveless landslide, I think

Yeah, you know, we're talking about something as wide as an ocean but as shallow as a pond

I like that. In terms of the... A sallow as a puddle. Yes

So I could not... You know, people have an idea of what the next parliament looks like

actually, from quite far out. I have absolutely no idea. You know, Eddie, you know, that's the thing here

So I think, going back to Farage, his biggest worry, if I were him

and this is, I think, the catastrophic mistake he has made, I think, in terms of his pathway to becoming PM

He made a pitch to get disaffected Tories to come over to his party on the pretext that reforms were going to be the new standard bearers of the right

Robert Generic, Suella Breverman, will soon realise that he is not going to be PM

Reform are not going to be the governing party. They did not join reform to sit in the far corners of the Houses of Commons

They joined the reform out of personal ambition and you'd add Danny Kruger to that list as well

Danny Kruger and all the others, you know, they're the ones that I think..

Nigel Farage should be most worried about. Because they want that. Yeah, and I suppose, I think they'd be deluded, actually

to think that they would appeal to his base. His base is a personality cult, a little bit like Donald Trump's

But, I mean, that level of ambition often embraces delusion, doesn't it

It does. And they will see and realise, because, you see, the very peculiar nature of our electorate

they're incredibly loyal at the margins. Yeah. The Tories can't go... Look, there might be many Tories out there

that may agree with reform, but out of almost slobbish loyalty and stubbornness

they will continually vote Conservative. In the same way... I've just got a message about that

My dad's going to vote Conservative because he always does. Yes. And I think this is something that..

you know, I think some of the thinkers within reform have not really thought

of, and that's why Kenny Bader still is on the pitch. And when you've got

that base of about 18, 19% and you can't go any lower, the only way is up

I think the problem I have, and I'm conscious of condescension, but, you know, we're living in an

era of hatred, and you look at what's happened in America and think back to the times you thought, well, maybe

we shouldn't be so rude about the people who support Donald Trump. Maybe the invasion of Iran is going to be a good idea. Maybe he's not going to start

turning the country into a place where entirely innocent people get shot in the face by

immigration authority. All of the things that the worst predictions about Donald Trump involved have

come completely true. And people voted for it, even though it was obvious what was going to happen

But I'm still conscious of condescension. I'm still conscious of saying what I'm about to say

to you, which is you're really talking about two people fighting for the votes of people who don't

understand much and don't care about anything except their sort of atavistic desires to see fewer brown

faces on the streets around them. Yeah, and look... And bizarrely, of course, Cammie Bader has a

you know, she is a black woman, and yet the people she appears to be fighting for, the votes

she appears to be fighting for, are the people that cheer on his Bob Jenrick when he complains

about there being too many people like you in your hometown. For sure

And I think, look, the Conservatives were... It's bizarre here, right? There are certain

suggestions. I think some of the Tories have been thinking that there could be an election next May

I can't see that. It's not impossible. Yeah, it's not impossible, but I think

if there's a feeling that, let's say Andy Burnham was to break the 30% mark..

Let's go now, because it's not going to get any better than this. Correct, because there are so many headwinds

out there. I worry for Labour if they wish to go full term

because the potential chaos of what Trump may do in America come 2028, 2029

and the headwinds that may create economically and just the general political vibe out there

that is a big risk for him to more or less synchronise this country's electoral cycle to what happens in America

So I think, yes, Andy Burnham will go early, but how early is anyone's guess

I love this call. You're contributing to about six different phone-ins, all of which I'm interested in

I think we haven't even done that. Are we going to have an early election or should we have an early

But what you're actually describing, and I think you acknowledge this yourself, it's impossible to say almost anything with great confidence about anything

about the makeup of the next parliament, about the waxing and waning fortunes of the major political figures of the moment

and indeed about the imminence or otherwise of a general election. Yeah, it's bizarre here

which is why if you're coming back to Andy Burnham, You think with 400 plus MPs

a lot of MPs committed to him, actually, at this moment. Yeah, that's for sure. That's very true

He does appear to have a lot of loyalty to himself. But with all those headwinds out there and everything else

to potentially put the careers of 100, 120, potentially 150 odd Labour MPs can cause a lot of disquiet here

But it might be his best option. I hear you. Let's play a game

I'm going to read you some coverage from the Telegraph of one of the things that we're discussing. And I'm going to read you the first five or six sentences, right

And you can tell me whether or not you can spot the problem with this coverage

You ready? Yep, ready. Conservatives say survey lead shows they are coming back

under Cammy Baden-Wood. The Conservatives have overtaken Reform UK in an opinion poll for the first time

in more than 500 days. Cammy Baden-Wood's party gained 23% of support

in a poll carried out by More In Common between August 28th and 31st

beating Reform 22% into third place. The previous poll showed the Tories ahead of Reform

was conducted by Focal Data in April last year. It gave the Tories 24% and Reform 23%

The Conservatives said the new findings showed that they were coming back under Mrs Baden-Ock's leadership

However, Reform pointed out that other pollsters placed it ahead of the Tories and said it expected to continue

So that's one, two, three, four, five, six sentences. I won't read you the rest. I'll just count them

7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12. This can't go all the way to the end of the story

13, 14, 15, 16. Yeah, I think it does. Can you spot what's missing from this story about an opinion poll

I'll be honest with you, James. No. You can. Tories came second

Reform came third. What's missing from the Daily Telegraph's... No mention of who is winning. that's Brexit Britain for you

it is the stories of overtaken reform let's not mention the fact that Labour is still

way ahead of Kemi Bader even after a leadership period under Keir Starmer

that was so poor they actually got rid of him I think actually James

leading on to that there is a lead on though they will soon start talking about the combined number

I don't know they both keep ruling it out And that's another reason why I'm not writing them off yet

because, you know, who knows what would happen. And you make my job very difficult, Mo

I mean, you make it very enjoyable by being such a high-caliber contributor, but you make it very difficult because you remind us that

I think we're all just sort of licking our fingers, sticking it in the air and trying to work out

which way the wind is blowing. If you've got the Tories on 23 and Reform on 22

and they did announce some sort of electoral pact, you'd see a decline in both individual votes

because people would be cross that they got into bed with the other lot. But, of course, you'd leave Labour, technically, in a cocked hat

with that consolidation of the right-wing vote. And that would be a moment, wouldn't it

That would be when you discover whether or not the respectable Tories can hold their nose and go along with all the racism

And that is why, perhaps, you object to me using the word respectable to describe Tories, not Mo, you

And the Tory, who is already complaining about the Romans in order to honour the arrival of the Bayer tapestry on these shores

no-one has guessed correctly. It's not Marc Francois, it's not Jacob Rees-Mogg. Good guesses

Although I think technically Marc Francois probably has more in common genetically with the Normans than he does

Or was it his stepfather? Anyway, I'll tell you who it was after this. James O'Brien on LBC

It is 10.48. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC, where we think there probably seven journalists now who have been banned from the Reform UK party conference They clearly terrified of something and looking at the identity and the recent work of the journalists involved

the thing that they are terrified of would appear to be the truth. But it was ever thus, and I wonder whether you feel as excited as some people do

about the fact that they have now fallen behind Kemi Baden-Ox Tory party in one poll

while Andy Burnham is doing so well that the Daily Telegraph manages to publish an entire story

about the opinion poll that I am referring to without mentioning where Labour stood in it

I guess, I just presume everybody knows they came first, but they didn't feel it necessary to tell you even by how much

Oh, no, I tell a lie. There we go. It comes in at 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11

You find out in paragraph 11 that Labour had a narrow lead of three percentage points

in the More In Common survey. So, Kemi Bader not having a lead of one point over reform

That is time for celebrations. It shows that the Tories are coming back

That's the headline. Tories overtake reform in poll for the first time in 18 months

So, a lead of one point is a cause for celebration. A lead of three points is narrow

And these people just think you're too stupid to notice for yourself

Joe is in Whitstable. Joe, what would you like to say? Well, I used to work for Kent County Council down here, and I did

I worked on a project which was funded by the National Lottery

And when I worked for this project, it soon became apparent to me, and this is before reform took over Kent County Council, I'll clarify that

and what soon became apparent to me that who worked on this project

were sort of cherry-picked, if you like, the best of the best of Kent County Council

I'm not saying that about me, just about the other people. Sure. And what that basically meant was

when things happened that we had to change direction or we had worries or whatever it might be

we could do that easily, you know, and we could get the most efficiency out of what we were doing

and all the rest of it. Yes. Strikes me... It's a slightly sticky phone line

and I don't know if there's anything we can do about it. I don't want to put words into your mouth

but this idea that you come into power, and I don't know that the council experiences

are getting reported widely enough, that you come into power because you have been convinced

by what I would loosely describe as nonsense or Twitter commentary about public spending and or immigration

and then you arrive in power, and you realise that it's a lot harder than that, which is why they tend to quit these councils at a rate of knots

but your experience is acute, isn't it? Because you've got your face up against the window

I don't know if your average punter is aware of what has been going on with these councils

Well, that's right. And obviously since reform took over, it's been one disaster for another

And whether it's due to inexperience or ineptitude, I'm not quite sure

It's not either or, mate. It's perfectly possible that it's both. Could be both, yeah

And the problem is, though, that the average punter in Kent who voted this way in the last council election

is either not going to know or care about all of the things that you were witnessing and describing

And that's the bit I don't get. That's the bit I don't understand. And that's why you end up reaching

for the slightly unpleasant characterisation that as long as they keep demonising immigrants

they'll forgive absolutely everything else. But, I mean, I think on a wider scale

I think Reform Party nationally has also sort of been cherry-picking, except that they're cherry-picking the worst rather than the best

as in the worst of the last Tory regime and then they've all

gone over including of course Nadeem Zahawi who must be reading Zia Yusuf's

social media activity this morning with a wince, at least I hope he is

this is Zia Yusuf who is the donor to Reform UK who's

been rewarded with a made up job as Shadow Something. The front runner being foisted

on the people of Hoban by Labour to replace the former Prime Minister Keir Starmer

in our parliament was born in Somalia do you understand what's happening

Well, I do. The leader of Camden Council, who is incredibly well respected in the borough, is currently the front runner to become the candidate that Labour put up in that by-election precipitated by Keir Starmer's departure from Parliament

And she arrived in this country 30 or 40 years ago as a child refugee from Somalia and has done that thing that they keep telling us they want all the refugees to do, which is integrate

You can't get much more integrated than being elected mayor of London three times on the trot or indeed becoming the leader of the council where you live

And of course, the reason I mentioned Nadeem Zahawi is that he was born in Baghdad

He indeed published quite a nice memoir called The Boy from Baghdad

and according to his colleague in this party, he is part of this problem

So as Sundar Katwala, the tireless journalist and director of British Future points out

what you can do here effectively is say something like, say something about Nadeem Zahawi

that would be just as obnoxious and just as unpleasant as what Zia Yusuf is trying to say

about the front runner being foisted on the people. Here's an example. Nigel Farage's Home Affairs spokesperson

I think this is him, I think this would be Zia Yusuf himself, is a Muslim

with parents born in Sri Lanka or is that Suella Braverman? Either way the point stands. Nigel Farage's

Home Affairs spokesperson is a Muslim with parents born in Sri Lanka. Can't you see what's

happening yet? Sundar points out that's exactly the same rhetorical device that he's deploying

to attack the woman that is poised to run for Labour in Hoban

I'm not sure that that's been confirmed yet, although if you are following these things with interest, you will know that it has been confirmed

Zach Polanski, the leader of the Green Party, is going to be the Green Party's candidate there

I think Segal Abdiwali is going to be the Labour candidate, but I'm not sure it has been nailed down

Jo, thank you. Luke is in Bridgewater. Luke, what would you like to say? Yeah, good morning. I'm a reform voter, and earlier on in your programme

You said that you haven't had the opportunity to speak to a reformed voter? Well, I mean, not so far today, so thank you for coming on

What do you think about the current travails? Well, I'll be brutally honest

It's like I said to your researcher on the phone. Nigel has had a difficult summer

and the party do need to reset through all the conferences and whatever

I completely agree that his by-election stunt was a bad idea. Why

I just think it was a bit of a waste of taxpayers' money, to be perfectly honest with you

Why do you think he did it? Well, I believe he did it to give the people of Clapton a choice

But they had that two years ago. Yeah. Yes, they had that two years ago

And they voted, and they voted for Nigel. So why did they need to do it again

Well because of the constant attacks that Nigel had through the media and through the establishment For example Well hang on a minute Before we get into the constant attacks because I think what you describing is things that actually happened

that other people are pointing out, what do you mean when you use the word establishment

Well, the Labour and Tories and the Liberal Democrats. What about all the Tories that have joined reform

Yeah, every PNQs, every opportunity Keir Starmer had, whether he was there or not

All he ever seemed to do was attack Nigel Farage. I mean, I'm going to be polite, but he didn't

He spent all of his time attacking Kemi Badenow, mate, and she spent all of his time attacking him

So in that battle there, which one is the establishment? Well, they're both the establishment

But they're attacking each other. They're attacking each other. But they don't want each other in power either

Well, yeah, I get that. And there was no parliament over the course of the summer, was there

So when you said the entire summer getting attacked by the establishment, you obviously didn't mean what was happening in Parliament

No, like during the PMQs, before they broke up for summer. So how was he attacked over the summer

Well, he wasn't attacked over the summer, I suppose. You just said he was. Well, that's just, yeah, you just, well, you just, yeah, okay, that's fair enough

Yeah, I did say that. I know I was wrong. You're right, he wasn't attacked over the summer. But that was your reason for him calling the by-election

It's, well, it's the attacks he's had since the Reform Party has gained as much traction as it has

So let's run through those. Well, you can't deny that they've been pulling it, what

No, no, the attacks. Well, why are they making such a big deal of the £5 million donation

Do you remember Keir Starmer's... He received that donation before he was elected as an MP

But you have to declare anything that you receive in the 12 months prior to becoming an MP

Right, but that's actually not by law though, is it? Well, I mean, it is the subject of the investigation that he went to the by-election in Clacton to sort of curtail or respond to

So he obviously thinks it's very important. But it's not a legal investigation that he's undergoing, is it

Well, no, but it wasn't a legal investigation when Boris Johnson was found to have breached parliamentary rules

and he left Parliament entirely as a consequence of that. But why, I mean, when you say you sort of think it's been inflated

were you very cross when everybody was going on about Keir Starmer's spectacles

I'll be honest, I was, yeah. I thought, well, why is everyone making such a big deal out of it

Yeah, because it was just spectacles. Yeah. Yeah, as opposed to £5 million, secretly donated by a foreign-based billionaire

for his security. No, no, no, he's changed that story now. Well..

It was a reward for Brexit. Oh, hang on, I think he might have changed that story as well

It's for whatever he wants it to be, and he can spend it on high-performance motorcars

should he so desire. So there have been three different answers to that question. Which one do you believe? You take that completely out of context

He said he could spend it on high-performance motorcars if he wanted to

because it was a donation for him to spend that as well. So it wasn't for security

It was... Which he will use for security, yes. But it was a reward for Brexit

Well, no, he never said that, did he? Yeah, he did. Well, can I just say

I've been listening to you all morning this morning... Let's not talk about me

because I do that all the time. Let's carry on talking about you. Did you not realise he'd said it was a reward for Brexit

Yes, I did, yes. But you just said he never said that. Oh

So just run me through what it is you like about the guy before I go to the news. Well, I think we just need a complete change

We've had two-party politics for too many years and it's about time someone else had a go, basically

OK, well, Mr Blobby? Can't be in face? Or the bloke that took £5 million in secret

and told so many different stories about it that his supporter can't even remember

which one he thought was true two minutes ago. Let's give him a go

Well, everyone was singing for Count Benface not so long ago. I'm pretty sure you was even advocating for him during the Clackton White election

No, I'm prevented from doing so by dint of the rules that govern all broadcasters

So that's something else you never heard happen. I'm obviously not going to win you over, are you

I mean, you've spent all morning calling me a racist. You can win me over. Tell me something true

Well, you've spent most of the morning calling me a racist. I never said you're a racist. I've never met you before

You've said the majority of reform voters must be racist. Or comfortable with racism

Well, I'm neither. OK, so when Robert Jenrick said that he hated the fact

that in Birmingham he didn't see any white faces... I disagreed with him. I completely disagreed with him. And when Sarah Pochin said she hates it

it drives her mad when she's watching television and she sees so many brown and black faces

Yeah, I completely disagreed with it. So you were very uncomfortable with that

Yeah, I was, yeah. But you still support them? Yeah, because... So you're comfortable with racism

Well, no, I'm not comfortable with racism, no. But you still support them? I support the party, yes

So you're comfortable with racists? No. But you still support the party

Well, yeah, I do support the party. And the people doing the racism are in the party? The thing is, you're taking it completely out of context

You keep saying that, and I've got a horrible feeling you're not entirely sure what it means

Well, I do know exactly what it means. What? Well, it means that you're blowing things out in proportion

and you're using it to suit your argument. It doesn't mean that. You're telling me that you're cross about being described

as comfortable with racism. I'm describing all the racism. You're telling me you still support them

I'm suggesting that means you're comfortable with it. Well, no, I'm not comfortable. That's 110% inco..

OK, but you're not uncomfortable enough to support some party that's not obviously full of racists

Well, no, because we're 14 years of the Conservatives, and look at the state of the country that they left

Yeah. Labour have been in power for two years. You mean people like Robert Jenrick, Suella Braverman, Danny Kruger

Andrew Rosendale... Yes, who stood down from the Conservative parties because... But they were in the government you're critiquing

Yes, and they stood down because they didn't agree with the way that the country is being governed

No, no, they were governing it, mate. They only stood down after they lost the election

No, they... Yeah, and they stood down because they knew that was why they lost the election

was because they did such a terrible job. Right, and now you're going to vote for them again

Well, no, I'm going to vote for the reform party. Well, yes, because they are now in the reform party that you're still supporting

Under a different leadership, with completely different values. But they're the same people

Yeah, they've got different values. What are the different values that they have

Well, I can't tell you that for a fact. Just a theory

Yeah, I don't know. I'm sorry. All right, hand on heart. What do you really like about them

I just think that the country needs change. OK. I just think that the country needs change It been two politics for far too long Yeah okay Why not the Greens Why not the Liberal Democrats Because I don align with their views

Well, you can't tell me what the things that you do align with are. Because when I ask you, you just say

I don't know, I haven't got anything, but I just want change. I don't... Yeah, I do want change

The only thing I know for you for certain is that you're definitely very uncomfortable

with all the racism being done in the party that you support because you want to change

So what are the views that you align with, do you think, Luke? Well, I believe that illegal immigration needs to be stopped into this country

Everybody agrees with that these days. But does that make someone racist

I didn't say it did. I'm asking what aligns with your views that reform offer that nobody else offers

Well, I like their policies on the economy, for example. Go on

Well, they wanted to raise a tax threshold up to 20%. And how is that going to impact you

Well, it would impact my local community because there's lots of people unemployed

or local businesses would be able to employ more people. Okay. Are you sure

Yeah. All right. That'll do. I mean, that'd be a nice change, wouldn't it

Well, yeah, definitely. Okay. Do you think there are any circumstances in which you'd think

maybe this is not a party that is going to be good for the United Kingdom

or maybe these people who, as you've pointed out yourself, many of whom

spent 14 years misgoverning the country and turning it into the mess that you think it is

today, I'd probably agree with you on bits of that. Do you think there's anything that would make you

think, hang on a minute, I think I might have been sold a pup here? No, not really, to be honest

There we go, we found something to agree on. I can't imagine any circumstances whatsoever

in which you'd think that. Fair enough Before you go, quick question

Do you like Donald Trump? No, I'm not a fan of Donald Trump, no

Good man Nine minutes after 11 and I'm planning to talk to as many of the journalists

who've been banned from the Reform UK conference as I can before 12 o'clock today

that should kick in shortly after the half past 11 news the number is already surprisingly high

unless, of course, you've factored in the thin-skin and petulance of the people who claim to believe in free speech

banning journalists from doing journalism at their own party conference, in which case it's not really surprising at all

But I want to talk about something completely different now. And I also want to, if I can, knit together two stories

the first of which confirms something that I... I mean, the phone-in, I think, will be about one element of this

but nuance is one of my favourite words, as you know. And I suggested to you some time ago

I've really failed on this. I've got a lot better lately. But the reason why my attempts to get to the bottom

of the neat phenomenon were initially quite... I mean, we had good phone-ins, but no one was..

Do you remember? I would get really impatient with callers because they weren't answering the question that I couldn't answer

That's not good, is it? I've got to answer the question that I can't answer. is never going to be a very good line to take

I mean, it's not quite as stupid as asking politicians questions to which you do know the answer

but you're fairly sure they're too busy to have checked recently, so you're going to be able to kebab them

by asking them if they know how much a loaf of bread costs. But to ask somebody, to ask them a question

that you can't answer yourself, and then get cross with them for not being able to answer it, I don't think that's a very good look

And I did that for a while when it comes to needs. What is going on? What do they do all day

And then I don't remember what changed. We ever so slightly recalibrated and we began to get answers

And I think the big change was the idea that there is going to be one big answer to this question

You've got a million young people not in education, employment or training. Then I said at the time you could have a million different answers to the question of why

But my one theory that I stuck to throughout was that a significant swathe of them would not be signing on

and they would be, I mean, potentially middle class or socioeconomically more comfortable than others

because they would be essentially living at home and continuing to live the life they led

when they were in full-time education, at which point they weren't signing on

Do people still say signing on? Claiming an unemployment benefit, claiming any form of unemployment benefit

And it turns out, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, that I was right

about 300,000 not seeking state support, either financially or to find work

So they're not claiming any form of benefit whatsoever. But they are living at home and they are not in education

employment or training. That's just a heads up. Oh, John Redwood with the Normans, by the way

Sorry, I forgot. John Redwood this morning reminding us, as we all celebrate the arrival of the Bayer tapestry

on our shores, John Redwood reminding us to think of all the English men and women

who were put into serfdom as a consequence of the Norman conquest

I wish I was making that up, but I'm not. I've said it before and I'll say it again. The worst thing that could ever have happened to these people

was Brexit. Otherwise, they could have spent their entire lives being doughty little rebels on the fringes of politics

shouting wonderful things about the Maastricht Treaty and the Second World War

But then they won. All their dreams came true. And they brought us this

Which is why old Luke, the last caller at the end of the last hour is quite a sympathetic figure

Because he's right in a way. We had 14 years under which everything went badly

but the main reason for that, as Andy Burnham pointed out in the House of Commons on Monday, was Brexit, on Tuesday even, was Brexit

And who was the man most obviously and readily associated with Brexit

The man that Luke thinks would represent an anti-establishment change and an opportunity to repair all the damage caused by Brexit

That's why it's heartbreaking, all right? however amusing you might find it, it's heartbreaking that people, voters in this country

have been turned into that sort of, or pushed into or tempted into that sort of position by populism

racism and lies. Because even if you are uncomfortable or unhappy with the racism

you're not unhappy enough to look elsewhere. So that's the 300,000 needs. And I read that story

and I turned the page and I read another story, which is the actual opposite in a way

The number of children living in homes where no one is working has climbed to a 12-year high

So middle-class parents are subsidising 300,000 hidden needs. It's about adults living in homes where children aren't working

Not technically children, as in their age range, but their children. Adults living in homes where their children aren't working

And I've done that a lot and I've got a better grasp of it

and we'll do it again. But I want to do this one today. Because this is, this is tough

I mean, these numbers are, um, these numbers are ugly. But they're also dangerous

Because they could be moulded into something that they don't, they're not designed to deliver

For example, how many of the children living in homes where no one is working are unpaid carers

How many children? are living with parents who can't work and therefore don't work and therefore need looking

after by their own children. I don't know, but the figure now has reached a 12-year high

the highest since December 2014, so not the highest ever. 1.54 million people in workless

households in the three months to June. And I just want to know genuinely what that's like

I can't, I don't want you to think less of me because I'm not here to say all of these adults

all of these parents are work shy or lazy or any of those things, but that will be part of it

There will be people listening to this who grew up in workless households whose parents had chosen

to be that way. I just, and I naively now would like to think

I'm sure that won't be the major constituent part of 1.54 million

I just want to know what it's like because of all the things that I struggle to imagine

growing up in a house where nobody worked is actually one of the hardest

And I suspect the same is true for a massive majority of us

and yet again with things that we know nothing about the temptation to be unkind is the hardest

to resist and yet what should you feel about these children even if they are living in a

household that is the sort of fevered imagine the concept the the result of the fevered imagination

of dick littlejohn or some other renter right-wing commentator imagine that they did actually grow up

in those sort of circumstances, then you'd feel sorry for them, wouldn't you

I mean, what chance would you have had if you'd grown up in a house where nobody worked

So on the one hand, there are people listening to this who grew up in a house where nobody worked

and were not part of the tabloid cliche, who were looking after their mum or looking after

but nobody worked. The child did not work. I beg your pardon

An adult did not work in that house. 0345 60 60 973 is the number you need

Because I want to know where you get it from. That thing I got when I was about 16

and mum and dad arranged for me to go and work with a family friend all together now on a building site in South Yorkshire

But the same summer, I also started working as a waiter at a restaurant in Kilimanster

And then when I left school, I went to work at River Island on Worcester High Street

And it was just, it was, it was all, I mean, there was something really nice about leaving the house when mum and dad left the house

Mum worked for much of my childhood. Mum worked on the perfume counter in Owen Owen in Kidderminster

She worked for Estee Lauder and later for Longcombe. And then I went to work with her in my school holidays

I worked for Davidoff Cool Water. Do you remember that, Keith? And Jupe, which everyone always pronounced yup or something like that

Jupe was lovely. Jupe's still quite nice. actually, as a fragrance, although I'm a bit too manly for it these days

I never didn't have that. And I've never actually thought about it before today

It was so baked into my childhood, that idea of work, that I didn't think it was particularly special

and I didn't think it was particularly creditable, and I didn't think it was particularly interesting

It's how we grew up. We grew up with parents who worked, and therefore, if we wanted a few quid in our pocket

as soon as we reached a certain age, we worked ourselves. So with absolutely no judgment except yours

you can sit in judgment on your own parents. I am not going to. Or at least I'm going to try not to

With no judgment except your own, what was it like to grow up in a house where nobody worked

where no adult worked? What is it like to be a child in a house where no adult works

And as with the neats, there'll be lots of different reasons why nobody worked

And that's why I'm so interested in your answer to this question. I want to know what your reasons were, what your family's reasons were

But in some ways the phone-ins... When there's a version of the question that is..

And I mean this for you, not for me, but I'm the person that asked the question on the programme

what would it be like to have led a completely different life from the one that i led do you see

what i mean if you're trying to engender empathy in people if you're trying to make people understand

that they're but for the grace of god go they the most powerful thing you can do is just imagine or

help people imagine what it would be like to not be to be you and not be you i talk about this a bit

in the context of adoption, because I'm adopted and I have this weird interest in who on earth I would be

if I wasn't me, because I'd still be me. You understand what I mean. So think about the most formative experience of your life

Education, childhood, parenting, whatever it may be. So who would you be now if you'd grown up in a house

where nobody worked? I don't think you'd be the same person. I really don't think you would be the same person

but you would still be you. So if you grew up in a house where nobody worked

Can you help the rest of us appreciate what that was like

And whatever the reason was, whatever the reason was, I want to hear it

I want to hear about your experience of being the child in that household

0345 6060 973 is the number you need. Hit the numbers now. You will get through

It is 11.20. James O'Brien on LBC. the point I need to make really clearly is that this is not a poor me poor me poor me

section of the program it may well be that your experience was harrowing and horrible but I'm

supremely confident that many of those 1.5 million children in workless households are in happy and

loving households I'm just not I just don't know what else they would be like because that is so

opposite to the household in which I grew up. 23 after 11 is the time

Margie on the wheel, I'll be with you imminently. Jo's in Harrow. Jo, what made you pick up the phone

So, for me, I grew up in a household where both parents didn't work after coming to the UK

What that has resulted in is their six children being very conscious of the fact

that we were supported whilst growing up. We had a very basic life

But yet now it's our turn to give back. Three of us are business owners

Two of us are teachers within schools and one is a banker

Boo! It was going so well. It was going so well. I think I know what got you

I'm joking. I'm joking. I'm joking. Bless you. We feel the same about her. Don't worry

Two teachers and a banker. Go on. And then what that has done is it's allowed children that are conscious that we, our parents

were supported so now it our time to give back and that what each of us are doing Whether that by employing people three of us employ in excess of 100 people The two teachers are exceptional teachers

I am so proud. And we'll leave the letter last. That's not fair

I was only joshing, of course. I know, bless you. Ultimately, life was basic

Life was basic. My parents came here with not being able to speak the language

They tried to pick up jobs, the most basic jobs, whether that's cleaning, gardening

however what they realized was that they had six young children that they also had to pay attention

to so growing up in a household where both parents didn't work we were blessed with warm meals when

we got home we were blessed with bedtime on time because obviously dad wasn't coming home late

and we had exceptionally attentive parents um and that wasn't by choice uh both parents are

extremely proud. They had professions back home, but here they just couldn't connect

with a profession. They tried to make it work, but with six children

being at different stages of schooling, they couldn't pick up a job. So your family fled another

country rather than came here? Yeah, absolutely. Just to clarify a couple of things out of my own

curiosity, it was a refugee scenario as opposed to let's up sticks and try somewhere

else for a change scenario. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, it's unfortunate, but two generations on, it's still happening to families

And I see those families that are where we were, let's say, 20 years back

The welcome is a lot less warm now. I mean, and I'm sure that you had your struggles and that your parents had their negative experiences

But for reasons that we were talking about a lot in the last hour, the welcome for families like yours is a lot less warm than it was when your mum and dad arrived

And of course, what you remind a lot of people of, myself included, is that these stories are not self-contained

The story of the family with the six children and the two parents who can't speak English and can't get work is not a story that ends there

It carries on into you and your siblings and then into your children and their children and then into, you know, the reason why this country is this country

All of the different avenues that were opened up as a consequence of that single beginning

how did they convey to you i mean the fact that they were professionals in in their country of

origin is clearly pertinent here it would be a very different experience to grow up in a

household where nobody really wanted to work and that's why we're having this phone in but how did

they convey to you that that what was what was a conveyor belt in my life you know but mum and dad

had been on it so i would hop onto it as well how did they convey to you the necessity and the

importance of going to work um so that is a very good point so you always think to yourself

how did we come with this work ethic that's evident to every everyone who knows us um seeing

parents that didn't work i think it's them they're spoken uh they spoke to us a lot they are in that

position um because of um their inability to do mxy um and as a result of their sacrifice they gave

their all, which was making sure that cooked meals, ironed shirts, and my children don't

get it, but polished shoes on a Monday morning. But that's because they were very attentive to us

And they said to us, look, this is a sacrifice we've made. So you must not be in this position

They're in that position out of fleeing war, but we must come out

And I think what we learned from them was that it wasn't a place of enjoyment

I think we went without. Life was very basic as well. Having lived life where we did have the luxuries back home

and then stepping to a world where everything had to be basic

we preferred what we had and hence we're working so hard to go back to what we enjoy

which is working hard for a better life. But whilst growing up with two parents who weren't working, life was very basic

And that's what I must remind to those people that think that if you're not working, it's pleasurable

It's not because you cannot afford a lot of what you want to afford for your children

Because now having children, I can see that, look, this is what you can afford if you were working, if you had the means

and yeah without going all hallmark hard about it you also and you've conveyed this quite beautifully

you also got things of great value from your mum and dad that would have been much harder to get

if they'd been working 12 hours a day each that's us right now yeah so time and love my husband i

absolutely that's my husband and i we um we're out to eight o'clock back at 7 p.m and we know

Yeah, we know what we're not giving our children, but we were both blessed with it, which was attentiveness

And I think there was a discussion yesterday on this where loneliness and all the other situations that happened

because I certainly didn't experience loneliness because my parents' eyes were always on us

Whereas my husband and I, the second we get home, like I think a colleague of yours or maybe yourself

you mentioned there are so many things that we need to tick and get over and done with

we can't sit there and connect eye to eye with our children it was a caller to this show

I'm sure other presenters have done the same subject as well so maybe it was them

but it was about just not having the time it was a young mum wasn't it

describing how she gets home and she hasn't got time to look after her children

in the way that she would want to because she's got all the other things to do what an incredible call

sometimes it's the last call of an hour which justifies the entire hour

Sometimes it's the first call of an hour that justifies the entire hour and sometimes it comes in between

But if we don't have time to come back to this subject because I'm about to catch up with all the journalists

that have been banned from the Reform UK conference and to be fair, it could take us up to one o'clock

the way that that tally is rising with every passing minute then I'll still be glad we had that conversation

because you proved every point I wanted to prove. The statistic is big, 1.54 million children in workless households

But the idea that you can extrapolate from that any generalised truth about all of those children is, as Joe has just beautifully demonstrated, ridiculous

And we've now got three business owners employing in excess of 100 people, two teachers and, no family's perfect, one banker

Here's Dominic Ellis with your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC. 33 minutes after 11

Let me refresh your memory of an exchange between Nigel Farage, who appears to have come out of hiding in Birmingham this week

and the Democrat politician Jamie Raskin in Congress in September of last year

You've banned journalists from your political events that you disagree with, haven't you

No, in fact, I'm the only... Really? At your convention, you didn't ban journalists and revoke their credentials

You know, I take the average press conference. I take 25 questions

No, no, that wasn't my question. Mr. Farage, we're politicians, so we see what you're doing

I'm asking you a direct question. Well, thank you. I'm asking you a direct question

I hope you can answer it Why do you ban journalists who oppose your views from coming to your events Why did you tell your party that why did you tell the local government not to do interviews with your local newspaper

I am the most open person to any journalist. Undoubtedly, you're the handsomest man in the world

But I'm asking you a different question, okay? That's not my question. My question for you is, and it's legit

why do you ban journalists that you disagree with from your political events, like from your convention

I don't. Okay, and you say you've never done that? I can't think, if I go back the last 25 years

I can't think of banning anybody. But, I mean, maybe somebody else did. But, look, I repeat the point

A big boy did it and ran away. I've got four people to talk to here

so you'll forgive me for talking a little bit less than I usually do. Michael Crick, political journalist

I'm going to use the word veteran. I never know how that lands with people, but you must have attended more party conferences

than any party leader, Michael, by dint of going to several every year

and also the author of The Disruptive Life of Nigel Farage. You just heard him say, though

he's never banned anyone from one of his conferences. Have you ever been banned from a Reform UK conference, Michael Crick

Not before, no. I was actually frog-marched out of a UKIP conference

in the days when Farage was leader, in a pretty nasty way, actually

because I'd been trying to talk to Neil Hamilton, who'd fallen out with Farage

but that was all sort of repaired, and I was allowed back in

And Labour tried to ban a few people from their conference, last year, you'll remember

But I think in the end, they backed down and let most of them in. So why are you not going to this one

Well, because I can't get in. I haven't got a press pass. But what have you done? Well, I've been quite critical of Farage in recent weeks

and his bad temper over the whole Harbourn donation. And, of course, I was involved many years ago

on Channel 4 News and then in my book in exposing all the stuff about him being anti-Semitic and racist

when he was a schoolboy at Dulwich College, and he didn't like that

and that dragged on for several weeks, you'll recall, around about the turn of the year

And, you know, I regularly ask questions about what he and his party are up to

On the other hand, I say some quite positive things about them from time to time. You do

People probably think I'm a bit too positive. Well, I couldn't possibly comment, Michael

We're here to talk about you, not me. But you also, of course, famously

filmed or unwittingly, Lee Anderson managed to get himself on tape setting up a friend to

pretend to be a random voter when you were out on the stump with him

Yeah, that was a lot of fun. That was way back in the 2019 election

Extraordinary. Made Lee Anderson look a right chump. He was a Conservative in those days

of course. Of course he was. And maybe he's, I mean, he's the

chairman of reform. Maybe he's behind this, maybe he's getting his own back. I mean, it's not the end of the world for me

I just won't go and do something else instead. But it is, I mean just beyond the mischief

of course, there he is in Congress stating that this kind of thing never happens

and here it is happening as far as we're aware on six different occasions. Is he getting more thin-skinned as these

stories grow? Undoubtedly, and I think since the Harbourn story, I mean

the affable Farage has become the laughable Farage with with the Clapton by-election and so on

He doesn't like people taking the mickey out of him. He doesn't like people asking questions about his finances

And I think he's become much more Trumpian in recent years, much more obsessed by making money

which is getting him into trouble. And he's under attack now. I mean, Labour and the Conservatives

are both rejuvenated under new leaders. And he also faces a serious threat from Rupert Lowe

and his new party, Restore. and, of course, he fell out with Lowe in a big way

So it's his own fault, really, that Lowe has gone off and done this

So the pressure on him right now is huge. And, of course, the pressure is all the greater because it's a dictatorship

If he delegated a little bit more, he wouldn't be under so much pressure

But that's how he chooses to do it. See, those are precisely the sort of comments that have rendered you persona non grata

Michael Crick, thank you. That book, The Disruptive Life of Nigel Farage, is required reading

Peter Gagan, editor of the investigative newsletter Democracy for Sale. I think I saw that you and Crick have been banned from this conference

because you're not high status enough. That seems fair. I think we're described as minor characters or something similar

kind of Dominic Cummings-esque language. I think they describe Michael as an academic

because he's got a university position. And I'm a blogger, apparently, so that means that I don't qualify either

I'm sure it's got nothing to do with the numerous stories that Democracy for Sailors has ran about reform

its funding in various aspects of the party, and everybody else too. I'm sure that's just a coincidence

And also, you know, just a blogger who managed to win the Private Eye Investigative Journalist of the Year Award

just a few short weeks ago. So, you know, these things matter. What stories do you think might have caused the most upset

Well, I was really struck, and I can't say cause and effect. You never can with these things

But at five o'clock on Wednesday, I published a story about Isabel Oakshot

Isabel Oakshot is Richard Tice's partner and very much one of the most boosterish reform voices you'll find

And actually, in recent months, she's been talking a lot about how this five million pounds from Christopher Harbour

which you've talked about a lot, James, and we've written about a lot in Democracy. We've said how it's nothing to see here. It's nothing to see

Who cares how Nigel gets his money? How he buys a house is none of nobody's business, is what she said

Well, we were able to reveal that before the 2024 general election, she'd privately told a senior reform figure that she thought that Christopher Harbourn at the time was untrustworthy and she concerns about his money

So we published that story at five o'clock. And at 5.35 precisely, an email landed in my inbox from the reforms accreditation team saying, really sorry about this

It was almost like a kind of a job application you'd failed. Thank you so much for applying. But this time, unfortunately, you haven't been selected

So they selected 950 journalists, apparently. But for some reason, I think myself and Michael somehow didn't qualify in the top 950 people to be covering the reform conference

Michael made the point that it's not going to have any impact upon any work that you do unless they're worried about you actually talking to the party rank and file

What exactly is it that they would be trying to prevent by keeping your FISOG out of the room

I think it's a kind of it's my read on this is that it's an attempt to just it's an attempt to kind of stop scrutiny

It's an attempt to not engage with people who are trying to scrutinise you. And it's not just, you know, Michael mentioned that other parties have banned people from their party conferences before

It's also not just that. Gabriel Poggeron has done some great work with the Sunday Times digging into Farage's money

He has spoken publicly about when he's wrote about Richard Tice's tax affairs

how reform refused, Richard Tice and twice Tice's lawyer refused to acknowledge his requests for comment

That's a really serious thing that makes it really hard to report because legally you have to know that the person you're making these accusations about has heard them

So that's a really big thing. I've also spoken to other journalists who are actually attending the conference

who've told me that they won't, they can't get, they get stonewalled when they ask for details about press party conference briefings, all that sort of stuff

It isn't just this. This, I think, is a wider, it looks like it's a wider kind of strategy we're seeing here from reform

And Michael Crick's already used the word Trumpian. It's hard to resist in this context

Sam Bright investigative journalist author and the UK deputy editor of The Smog I mean this is getting ridiculous Surely you haven been banned as well Sam I afraid I have James Although I in very good company Well I beginning to feel left out I didn apply but I still want to be banned

It would be ironic if they let you in, James, given what you said. Now that would be a turn for the book

Do you know why? What have you done to upset them? Similar to Peter, I think the timing of all this was quite ironic

We did a piece where we ran through, sifted through the party's agenda and the speakers who have been let in and will be turning up over the next few days

We revealed the fact that, you know, you've got major corporations actually there

You've got the likes of Google, you've got the likes of Meta, TikTok. But alongside them, you've got fossil fuel lobbyists and you've got anti-abortion groups

and a few hours after we went to Reform for Common, as all good professional journalists do

we were informed likewise that we would not be accredited. Just as a side point, James, it's very ironic

that when Farash spoke to Congress last year, that appearance was facilitated by an anti-abortion group

and they seem to not be keen on us reporting the fact that their ties to similar groups are multiplying

So to be fair, other parties would have some of those interests represented, wouldn't they

I guess the Greens don't have a very high representation of fossil fuel companies, but it's not unique to reform

No, absolutely not. Although, as we've pointed out extensively, let's just take Tice's recent remarks about sparkling wine from the English countryside now being the tipple of choice thanks to climate change

You know, this all feeds into this idea that reform's a climate denial party

that has itself actually taken a lot of money from fossil fuel interests. And, of course, a recent interview with Bloomberg where he insisted

that there were loads of scientists who agreed with his scepticism about man-made climate change

He just couldn't think of any at that moment. Yeah, and he threatened to walk out of that interview, I think, actually, didn't he, James

Well, that's the alternative. If you can't ban the journalists, you can walk out of the interviews, I suppose

Sam, thank you. Will Haywood, multi-award winning. Well, actually, to be fair, I think all of my guests today are multi-award winners

A journalist, author of the Will Hayward newsletter and the Guardian's Wales columnist

We're up to three. Surely it's not four, Will. I'm afraid so. You're going to have to add me to the list

What happened? Do you know? What have you done to upset them? Apart from journalism

In their defence, I have repeatedly reported on the things they've said and done. I actually, I've been banned from some previous ones, but in 2024

I was allowed to actually interview Farage in the party's Wales conference in Newport

And just before I began that interview, it was made clear by a member of Farage's inner circle that he said

we haven't worked together before and whether we work together again will depend on what happens now

So it was very clear that future access would be predicated on how I conducted that interview

And it seemed I failed the test. That was the last time you were allowed into the royal presence

After that, I was persona non grata. So although there has been some interactions kind of indirectly

a leaked WhatsApp group from the internal comms team at Reform actually revealed their head of comms, called me

I can't say this on the radio, but I'll see you next Tuesday, which I don't know if I can say that

You just did. We're okay, I think. Okay. And I also, there was a recent incident inside the Senate

inside the Welsh Parliament canteen where seemingly some reform staffers took a picture of me speaking to some other politicians

as I do every day as part of my job, and posted it on their social media

as evidence of my complicity against reform. So it's been an interesting rollercoaster

And, yeah, you said at the beginning, albeit amusingly, that what you've done is report on things

that they have said and done. And, of course, your patch goes beyond reform

and covers the whole of Wales. There's a lot of love for you coming in on my inbox, actually, Will, I have to tell you

He's a fantastic great Welsh journalist. We should hear more from him. I love Will. He's brilliant, says Alid

I should clarify, I have a very big family. Yes, well, probably an Alid in it as well

Not to stereotype. Michael, we spent the first hour of the programme wondering whether the wheels were beginning to rattle

I don't think anyone's going to claim that they're coming off. I sense you think they are

Well, they're under a lot more pressure. They're not doing as well as they were

They're still in the 20s, the early 20s in the polls, which is way above the 14% I think they got at the general election

So it's a huge improvement. They're still ahead of the Conservatives in nearly every poll, apart from one yesterday

But as I said, they're under pressure from Labour and the Conservatives in a much more serious way now

And all these allegations, not just about Christopher Harbourn, but a whole string of other allegations made by the Sunday Times and other papers

about the finances of reform and whether they've been taking money from

asking whether they've been taking money from foreign sources, contrary to the law and all the stuff that's going through this guy

Posh George, George Cottrell, who is a former convicted fraudster in the United States

All that is adding to the, and diverting from what they want to do

which is put their ideas forward and go out and attract the public

and it's going to drag on for at least as long as this inquiry

into Farage and the Harbourn money and probably beyond that. Until now, they've had a pretty easy ride, I think, but it's changed

Just in conclusion, will you be reviewing or recalibrating your professional tactics as a consequence of this cruel snub

I will, and from now on I'm going to be, you know, licking parts of the reform body that have never licked people

That'll do nice things. make sure that I'm allowed into the conferences from now on

Well, yeah, again, tongues in cheeks, hopefully. That's where they'll stay. Peter Gagin, will you be reviewing your approach

to the coverage of these sort of issues as a consequence of this cruel snub? What do you think, James

I think, you know, I wrote a piece today saying, you know, they can ban us from their conference, but they can't stop us reporting

And democracy says, well, we will continue to report, we'll continue to report the money and influence in politics wherever it leads us

And it's led us to reform recently, and we will keep going there as long as it leads us there. Democracy for Sale, of course, the name of Peter's

organisation, somewhat fortuitously named, given the context of this conversation. Sam Bright, that's it for you, I presume. No more

books, no more work at the smog. You're going to have to hang up your notebook and do

something else. Yeah, I'm afraid so. If only reform believed in freedom of speech as much as we all do

And Will, it's not just you from The Guardian, is it? I think that Anna has been told

that she's persona non grata as well. Yeah, several people from The Guardian. To be honest

I have never felt more endorsed in how I carry out my journalism than I have. Well, long may it continue. Thank you, chaps

Very much indeed. Peter Gagan there, Michael Crick, Sam Bright, and Will Haywood. Just some of the journalists

that have been banned from the party conference of the self-styled party

of free speech, Reform UK. 11.49 is the time. Could have carried on for another

hour, actually, with this, but we've got Mystery Hour on the horizon. James O'Brien on LBC

It's 11.52. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. All of those journalists that we just spoke to on the naughty step as far as Reform UK are concerned

but they are far from the only ones. So that number is set to rise, I suspect, in the course of today

It's no negative reflection on the people that are permitted to go, on the journalists that are there

It's just that a particularly investigative journalist, that's what all four of those characters had in common

an investigative journalist is digging into things that politicians don't want to come to light

are not the same as journalists who simply report on what politicians are doing in the light

And I think that's a helpful distinction to make. I promised you that I'd explain the origins of the word tanky

And the reason for it is twofold. Number one, I only relatively recently got my head around it myself

And the other is that Diane Abbott today is receiving an entirely disproportionate

and yet justified amount of criticism. for essentially putting NATO on the hook

for the ongoing horror show in Ukraine. And it's a well-established position of the British left

And it is called being a tanky. And where that comes from, I think

and you're going to correct me if I'm wrong, is the 1950s, particularly 1956

when the Soviets sent tanks into crush revolutions in Czechoslovakia and in Hungary, wouldn't it

So you've got the Prague Spring and the Hungarian Revolution. And because there were elements on the British left

that were sympathetic to communism, and this was the most irresistible or undeniable evidence

of the Soviet authoritarianism and aggression, they ended up boxing themselves into a corner

where they either had to sort of defend the use of tanks to attack peaceful protests

thinking of Tiananmen Square, actually, more recently, or they would have to somehow blame the protesters for provoking the response

So it is generally a description used to describe people who ended up defending leaders like Joseph Stalin or Mao Zedong

and opposing NATO and other Western nations regardless of the human rights abuses they were doing

So think of it in economic terms. Here is capitalism. Capitalism is your enemy

here is a foreign state that claims to eschew capitalism, Soviet Union, Communist China

therefore we support them because they are the enemy of the neoliberal status quo

The problem with that is that Vladimir Putin's Russia is about as left-wing as Genghis Khan

It's a kleptocracy run entirely for the enrichment of him and his closest cronies

And for Diane Abbott not to fully understand that is a professional delinquency

But of course I'll leave you to wonder why a certain type of media outlet is focused incredibly on her

and even more on her than they were when one of Nigel Farage's closest confidants

was sent to jail for years for accepting bribes from a Kremlin stooge

I'll just leave you to speculate about what it might be about a backbencher with no prospect of power

or high office any time ever and whose membership of the Labour Party

is frankly hanging on by a thread. Why on earth would people be pretending that she was

Or why on earth would people be attacking her with particular vitriol that you would never see, for example, directed at

A white backbencher like Jeremy Corbyn, who holds quite similar views. I'll leave you to speculate on that

While we return to the question of growing up in a house where no adult works

and the impact it has on the rest of your life. Margie's on the Wirral. Margie, what would you like to say

In regards to that particular question I grew up in a household where work was considered part of pride Yes

My dad was military My husband was saying his father was military

So pride and hard work were instilled in us from an early age

And we also instilled that same pride and hard work ethic into our kids

One of our sons spent 16 years in the army, which is enormous pride to us

Our daughter is a community worker. She works one-to-one in the community as a carer

Again, enormously proud of her. our other son however did has well has tried very very hard all his adult life to um work

and provide for his family unfortunately from his mid-teens he started developing

um health issues i think this is going to be the case with a lot of these families isn't it and

it's kind of missing from a lot of the coverage it's just there's a deliberately created impression

that this is going to be all about either willful or chronic unemployment

as opposed to health issues. Yeah, and these health issues now have reached a point

where it's taken 20 years for them finally to give him a diagnosis

of all the different issues that he's been having to cope with

And his partner's the same, similar situation. What impact do you think it's having on their children, on your grandchildren

on the eldest two I'm not sure it is in the sense that

they're older, they're 16 and 13 the eldest one's being severely autistic

the baby though he's only three so we've yet to see what impact that might

have on him, I'm hoping the fact that although him and his partner don't work

because of health issues seeing everybody else in the wider family who do work and work hard

and instill pride in us. Yeah, and I mean, it's a tragedy

to report it in these terms, isn't it? Because the idea that you somehow lack pride

as a consequence of being physically or mentally unable to work is absolutely heartbreaking

But you remind me of that old adage, you can't see, or rather you can't be what you can't see

and and that if they have an example if they have a kind of uh a guiding light or something to emulate

and follow then they're going to be in a better place than perhaps the people who um who don't

and i know that graham who's from your neck of the woods was was due to come on next to talk about

his experience working in the dss and and how it's the extinction of hope that is often the case in

families where there's multi-generational unemployment regardless of the original cause of it. If you can't

see an example to follow, then you can't be. You can't be what you can't see

It's coming up to 12 noon, a packed show today, but it's Thursday

which means that it's Mystery Hour, your weekly opportunity to achieve the

sort of satisfaction that is ordinarily not available anywhere else on your radio

If you don't know what it is, you're about to find out. If you do know what it is, why not book your place early

on the usual number? James O'Brien on LBC. Three minutes after 12 is the time

Got a bit curtailed conversation. We may try to return to it at some unspecified point in the future Because now it is Mystery Hour Your weekly opportunity to I done all that haven I What haven I done Oh there a prize

There's a magnificent prize. You can win it, actually, by being my favourite contribution of the week

The management's decision is final, but that's all you have to do. Whether you ring in with a question or an answer

or a complaint. Not a complaint, that was a joke. Whether you win in with a question or an answer

if it is my favourite of the day, my favourite of the week, then it's all yours

you get a Mystery Hour board game, that's the game version one

or you get the Mystery Hour travel game, which is a completely different proposition

and it comes in a tin. One is pocket size, one is not. But one, either box size or pocket size, will be yours

if you make my favourite contribution of the week. I'll tell you about the terms and conditions in a minute

In fact, I'll tell you now. The terms and conditions for the competition are at lbc.co.uk

and the, what's the other thing? oh yeah, you can find out more about the game

if you want to actually buy one as opposed to cross your fingers and hope that you make the most appreciated contribution of the week

then you can go to mysteryhour.co.uk. So, phone lines are open. If you have a question that needs an answer

call me now on 0345 60 60 973. If you're brand spanking new to this feature

maybe give yourself five minutes to just get a flavour of the kind of questions that get on the board

because some are perhaps a little bit obvious. and some wouldn't necessarily get put straight to the switchboard

But generally speaking, it's a who, a why, a when, a where

a whence, a wither, the occasional wherefore, although I don't think anyone's ever rung in and said

James, wherefore are that... Wherefore... It just means why, doesn't it, Keith

It's just a fancy way of saying why. So wherefore do we do-do this

So all of that, they're all, what are they called, Keith? interrogative pronouns. I think

that's what it is. That's it, really. And the only real thing that you need to bear in the back

of your mind is it must have an answer. So don't ring in and ask about the meaning of life

or something like that. 42. Everyone knows that. It must be something that actually

has an answer. Something that you feasibly, plausibly believe that you actually have

a prospect of getting an answer to your question. In other words, that somebody else

listening to this so-called program will be able to provide the answer that you so desperately crave

uh i mean we used to have rules don't really like motoring questions but frankly i'm getting old

and uh find it increasingly hard to stick to my carefully cultivated principles on this particular

issue um what was i thinking about the other day though so i don't do motoring questions and i don't

like london-centric stuff but i'm fascinated by you loves absolutely fascinated by it as an emblem

as an example of almost everything that's wrong with British media and elements of British politics

I may explore that another day, but I generally don't like motoring questions

And we don't like repetition, but we've been doing this for so long now that avoiding repetition is frankly impossible

Imagine being a phone-in host who only does the new topics. Every single topic we do, three topics a day

is something that we've never gone anywhere near or done anything like before. We wouldn't last a week

We wouldn't last a week. The trick is, of course, to return to familiar territory with fresh eyes

and interesting new insights. So, first time for everything. Let's get this up and running

Harry is in Helmsdale. Harry, question or answer? Hello, James. I've got a question

Carry on. No, he hasn't. I hope he hasn't fallen down a well

Harry? Yes, hello. Go on. What's your question? What's your question? So I'm currently hiking Landland's John O'Groats

Show off. I've got 60 miles left. How much? You've kept me company, so thank you so much

I've listened to you every day. It's a pleasure. Thank you for keeping me company, although I was unaware of it until this moment

Are you doing it for charity? Yes, I'm doing it for Alzheimer's Research UK

How can people find out a little bit more about your particular quest? Have we got a GoFundMe page or a JustGiving page

or something like that? He's fallen down a well. We'll get him on with a better..

Tell him to climb a tree, Eleanor. There's plenty of trees up. It depends where he is, whether he's near Lanzend or John O'Groats, actually

Nigel is in Poulton-le-Field. Fylde, Fylde, Fylde. Question or answer, Nigel? Hello, James. It's a question

What does Fylde mean? It's the area that's... So are you near Blackpool

Near Blackpool, yeah. Oh, it is Fylde. So that's where Fylde... Yeah, OK. Because we play you at football

Yeah, I have to see Fylde, which is Kirkham. And the filed is the whole area between Fleetwood and Preston

There you go. You live and learn. What's your question? The question is, how did they record 29th of February historically

And if you go back, if you look at some government websites

they say that it can be recorded as either the 28th or the 1st of March

on some official documents. What, you mean if it's your birthday or something like that? Yeah

Right, OK, yeah. And the reason I ask that is that we always celebrated my grandfather's birthday on the 29th of February

because that's when my mother said he was born. No, you've got that wrong

Sorry, I'm correcting you on your own family history, but I think you must mean the 28th of February or the 1st of March

We celebrated it on the 1st of March, and the 14th year we celebrated it on the 29th

And it was after he died, after my mother had died, that I found his birth certificate that said the 1st of March

and I thought, was it really the 29th or did they record it differently

But what is really interesting, because I was alive at the time, was he died on the 29th of February 1980

Shut the front door. Yeah. So we think he was both born and died on the 29th of February

That's right, 1904. I mean, that must be close to unique, mustn't it

Well, it's pretty rare. You'd have thought, I mean, what are the odds? I mean, you'd have to know how many people there are in the world

and then you'd have to divide things by four. Twice. Squared. Not my strong point, Maths, Nigel, I can't lie

So obviously it's quite an interesting situation. So what's the question? Did they ever write 29th of February on birth certificates

Yeah, or did they record them going back to the beginning of last century

as the 1st of March? I like that. I mean, it's quite niche, isn't it? But I like it

Yeah. It could have been that he was just, you know, sort of playing the wagon

He was the 1st of March, but he thought 29th of February was more interesting. I mean, it could have been on the..

His mother could have gone into Labour, you know, late on the 28th

Late on the 29th, and didn't give birth until early on the 1st

but they kind of decided to split the difference. So, why wouldn't they put down the 29th

I mean, in the days before computers, it would make more sense to just jot down the 29th

In computers, there might be a kind of millennium bug type scenario where it can't cope with the anomaly

Well, it's probably... I mean, as I genuinely say, I've looked at..

I've done some research. Yeah. You can find some guidance that says

on official documents such as driving licence, they will record it as the 1st of March or the 28th of Feb

to avoid complications if it ever checked Oh really Yeah So it is Well someone will know won they Because there bound to be people listening to this who were born on the 29th of February

and they'll be able to tell us straight from the horse's mouth, as it were, what the rules have gone. Yeah, well, I would hope so, you know

but particularly going back, you know, 120 years, that's what I'm interested in

Oh, I see, whether or not your grandad... So, really, you just want to know whether your grandad really was born

on the 29th of February or not. Yeah. Well, we're not going to be able to answer that. We might be able to say

if he had been, they definitely would have written it down because on his birth certificate it said the 1st of March

Oh, crikey. Thank you, Nigel. 0345 6060 973 is the number you need

Let's have another go with Harry's in Helmsdale. Harry, have you climbed a tree? Yeah, I've just climbed out the well

There we go. And you are raising money for Alzheimer's by hiking from Land's End to John O'Groats

How long have you been hiking? I've been hiking for 46 days

46 days, 60 miles to go. Are you going to finish it tomorrow, do you think? Oh, no, I think three days

Just get a flipping rake on, man, will you? Seriously, what are you doing

Crawling? Hopping? Oh, there's lots of rocks, James. Lots of rocks. And how can people offer some support for your journey

and indeed for Alzheimer's UK? Okay, yes. So I have a just-giving page

which is harrym-lejog. Oh, nice. harrym-lejog. Yes, but I also have an Instagram

and I'm doing, like, daily videos. Go on. And that's harrym-lejog. Le jog

It is, yes. Why did you call it Le jog? Well, Land's End John O'Groats

Land's End. Oh, La jog. Le jog. Le jog. Oh, Land's End

Le jog. I thought you were doing something a bit French there, mate

I thought you were jogging it. With a French flavour, and therefore you'd called it Le jog, you see

Like, du van, du pan, du boop. Anyway, Le jog. That's easy to remember

Land's End to John O'Groats. L-E-J-O-G. So, Harry M. M for mother

Yes. Dash, LeJoy. I bet you're wishing you'd never rung in now, aren't you? Anyway, what's the question

Okay, yeah. So, I was wondering what are the origins of public rights of way for footpaths

As in, why can we walk on some and not on others? Yeah, why can we just walk on some person's land and they can't stop you

but not anywhere else? I like that. There's a story in the news today, actually

I couldn't see a way into it, about a lot of previously sort of casually established rights of way being increasingly closed down by landowners

So what is enshrined in law and what is not? I do not know

Presumably there'll be kind of ancient traditions, some of which make it into ordnance survey maps

I don't know why I'm trying to answer this question, Harry. I mean, first of all, you've got a hike to get on with and I haven't got a clue about this

I had a posh friend who fell in love with a girl from a more normal background

You'll like this story, Harry. It'll keep you company for the next five miles. And he lived on a country estate

and his old man had a bit of a problem with ramblers, who were there legally

but he didn't like having ramblers on his land for the reasons that we're kind of both alluding to

that they had the right to just sort of walk through what he considered to be his garden

but which they considered to be great British countryside. And he started having a go at some ramblers

that he'd encountered on his travels on his own land. And it quickly emerged that they were the parents

of the lovely young woman with whom his son had recently fallen in love. It was a very romantic moment that came up in the wedding speeches

but they all get on famously now. You're on. Why? Why are some rights away, some routes allowed access

and others are not. Thank you, Harry. John's in... No, I will come to him after this

James O'Brien on LBC. It's half the 12 is the time. Mystery hour is upon us

You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. And good luck to Harry as he puts in the final..

Is he going... Which way was he going, Keith? Land's End to John O'Groats or John O'Groats to Land's End

It's Land's End to John O'Groats. 60 miles left. If you see him, give him a wave. And maybe, I don't know

a cup of soup or something. I don't know. What sustains you on a hike like that? It's unlikely I am ever going to find..

Or some Kendall mint cake. I don't know what he looks like. He's probably got a thing saying Le Jog on his back

or something like that, and a beard. Lewis is in Mason. Lewis, question or answer

Question. Are you currently embarked on a multi-hundred-mile hike, Lewis? I wish

Why not? I'm at work. Go on, then. What's the question? Yeah, I'm in my 60s

I sit down to my evening meal with my wife, and on the telly, we have adverts for pension plans

funeral care, disability aids and wheels. I'm just wondering if a young

couple would get the same adverts. Wheels? Wheels. Oh, wheels. Sorry, last

wheels and testament. That sort of stuff, yeah. Disability aids, funeral care, pensions. So we get all that old stuff

Do a young couple get the same adverts? Are you watching normal telly or are you streaming

It's normal telly. ITV. ITV? ITV, something like that, BBC, any way of that

I'm just moving into slightly delicate territory now, and I need you to tell me the truth, Lewis

Do you watch GB News? No. Oh, it's not that long. I've never watched it

I've never watched that. Well, and it's on the proper telly, so you'd be watching, like..

It's on the proper telly, yeah. The Chase or something like that. Yeah, so while the Chase is on

I'll get them kind of adverts come through. Well, I mean, late daytime, it's an older audience

Everyone's getting the same advert. You're beginning to take it a bit personally, aren't you

I can tell. I am indeed. You're thinking, hang on a minute, hang on a minute

I might have a few miles on the clock, but I'm good for a few more yet. Exactly that

Yeah, well, don't worry. Surely a younger couple wouldn't be interested in them kind of adverts

No, but they're less likely to be watching telly at that time. well no they are for two reasons the main one being that yeah the youngsters don't watch normal

telly lewis yeah you could be watching everything on their devices and streaming so they're watching

it when they want to watch it so they'll be watching the iplayer or even the itv player

they won't be doing what you and me do which is thinking inside oh it's six o'clock it must be

time for richard osmond's house of games or if i was with my mom as i was yesterday oh it's five

o'clock we must put the chase on with Bradley. Yeah, as I said, normally during the chase

The kids don't do it. The kids aren't watching it on normal telly at that time, so all of the

adverts are directed at the older consumer, but everybody is seeing the same adverts

Mmm, yeah. That's true. Otherwise, what are they going to... What do you mean, meh, yeah

It's just true. Yeah, no, I'll take your word for it. I was watching it in a hospital yesterday

full of old people, and it was the same adverts that you described

No, I was visiting Keith. It wasn't old people like me. So that's it

I mean, also, how would they do it? How would they know how old you are if you're watching the television

They'd know if you were watching it on your phone, but not if you're watching it on your television. No, that's what I'm on. That's what I was calling you

No, you're safe. You're safe. Ask me what my qualifications are. What are your qualifications

Spring chicken, mate, and I get the same adverts. There you go

There you go. Lovely stuff. And remember, as I bid farewell to

Lewis you can grab that phone line for yourself on 0345 6060 973 Any questions or indeed answers to the two questions that are still on the board John in Warrington John question or answer Hi James I got a question

It's about ingredients for casseroles. Oh, yeah, what do you want to know

Bayleaves, what are the points? I mean, you put a bay leaf in at the beginning of a recipe

or in a casserole. Then you add a multitude of different ingredients

Does anybody say, hmm, this is missing a bay leaf? You know, they don't seem to make any difference

So my question is, why do we use them? Umami. I beg your pardon

Umami. Iranu. No. Umami. Yeah, what's that? It's the other thing

Is it some ethereal thing? No, it's the other thing. It's like we know what sweet is

and we know what sour is. We know what salty is. What's the other one, Keith

Sweet, sour, salt. What's the fourth one? We know there's four. Sweet, sour, salt

Yeah, what's the other one? Oh, come on. Sweet, sour, salt. Sour salt. What's the other one

You should see the blank faces looking back at me, John. I don't know what it's like where you are

but this is like being in an aquarium. Does that count as umami, Bay Leaves

Yes. And how would you describe the taste, then? Well, I just did

No, that's just a word. Umami. It's like, it's a savoury, a subtle savoury

like, almost like a kind of, I mean, I don't know if you can describe umami. I think that's the kind of point

but it is, your tongue is picking up on that. It's a meaty flavour

It's like a meaty. What's the most umami thing you can think of

This might be a twiglet, for example. An umami. So it's like, I think a Japanese bloke discovered it

about a hundred years ago. and we got the four, even though you and me can only remember three of them

Sweet, salt, someone will have sent me. Acid. Is it acid? It's not acid. It's savoury

Sweet, salt, bitter. Anyway, marmite. So if you put like a tiny, tiny bit of marmite in your casserole

you'd get a similar effect to a bay leaf. Are you saying it's bitter

Sweet, sour, salt, bitter. I'm not convinced what do you mean you're not convinced

it's not a question of being convinced it's umami it just is

it's just umami if you can't taste the thing he got it from seaweed

he found it in seaweed and it turned out that the tongue

the tongue responds in a specific way to sweet, sour, salt and bitter

and it responded to this thing that he found in seaweed in a fifth way

in a different way, and that is called umami, and that is what a bay leaf delivers

even though people have been putting bay leaves in stews for years before anyone knew what umami was or discovered it

The reason why they were doing it, it transpired, was because of umami

I'd like a second opinion. Yeah, fair enough, actually, mate. I can't really argue with that as it goes

I normally get a bit prickly when people... Because with all those ingredients, you know

they'd mask any subtle umami. I don't think they would I think you underestimate how subtle umami

can be I mean I'll tell you what hand on heart make a nice ragu

from scratch maybe not a chilli because a chilli is probably gonna, I mean my chilli

recipe includes both bay leaves and indeed dark chocolate which is a bit of

a speciality of mine but you make a top ragu I reckon I could tell

the difference. Really? With one bay leaf? Yeah. It's why I put anchovies in my pasta sauce sometimes as well

Well, I do too. Well, that's umami. You know, that's a salt. No, that's a salt

It's salt and umami. It's salt and umami. So if you made, let's do the experiment, right

You make two bowls of ragu, one with a bay leaf and one without, okay

And then you've got three separate experiments have you? So you've got two bowls

with the bay leaf one bowl with and one bowl without and then two bowls without

the bay leaf. So you've got three separate taste tests. So you know you

wash your mouth out in between each one. You go yep they're the same. Yep they're the same

They're the two that are different and that is the umami one. I reckon I could do it

Well that remains to be seen. It does. So indeed does the answer to this question

That's all I've got. That's all I've got. I think the dark chocolate is a bit umami as well in the chilli

but I'll leave you to experiment with that. What was the question again

Why do we put bay leaves in food? That was it. Why do we put bay leaves in food

0345 6060 973. We've got a bay tree in our garden, so sometimes I put fresh ones in

and I can never remember. If you're putting a fresh one in, you'd put in more than you would have dried one, wouldn't you

Because the water would be... Yeah. Deborah's in Waltham Forest. Deborah, question or answer

Hi James, I've got a question for you. Yes. I'd very much like to know why snails and slugs are attracted to beer

I have a problem with them in my garden and can't get rid of them by humane means

This is unbelievable. This is unbelievable. Oh, okay, go ahead. I know what the answer is to this

Are you sure? Umami. Oh no, please. It's umami. Let's not go there again

Keith, this is the new osmosis, mate. This is the new osmosis

It's umami. Someone's asked this before. And the yeasty smell, back to marmite

We're back to marmite, you see? Umami, marmite, twiglets. The yeasty smell, it reminds the slugs and the snails

of, like, rotting organic matter. Matter, yeah. So it's like, are they called arthropods

It's like an umami for arthropods. Okay, I think I can accept that

That is actually why, I don't know if it's umami or not, but it is about the kind of yeasty recreation of rotting

because it's not rotting, it's beer. But it smells to a snail, it smells like something rotting

So they climb up the saucer, they fall in the beer, and they die

Yeah, but they die, don't they? Ultimately, they can't get out of the way

So that is, I think it's umami, but it's definitely rotting matter

Okay, can I just mention really, really quickly, about a year ago, I called in with

you know when you open the show and you say, who, what, where, when, how

And I had a who question. My question was, who is Helch

Because when I'm going along the motorway and I see Helch on all these bridges

I went to Shoreditch and I saw... The American car wash, isn't it

The American car wash ensured that she was all over that. Yes, that's the one

But then I heard on the radio that he's passed away. He has, indeed

He's a brilliant graffiti artist for people who've got no idea what we're talking about

And you didn't get on. You didn't get on with it. I didn't get on, and I was really disappointed

because I wanted to really know who he was, but then I heard it on the news like two days ago

Would you... He did the Give Peas a Chance thing on the Chalford Viaduct

as I turn it into help to chance taken. Would you like me, and don't be shy, no one else is listening

would you like me to fire somebody? No, definitely not. Are you sure

A game would be great. Let's not get carried away. I'm happy to fire someone

I can't give away a game, will you? No, I wouldn't ever want that to happen. All right, I can't fire anyone anyway

No, no. I accept Keith, maybe. All right, I'm going to take a round of applause for that

because it's correct, although the umami angle may be fanciful, Deborah. Okay, and I hope your mum's doing well, then

You're very kind, she is. Actually, now that you mention it, a special shout-out to everyone on the cardiology ward

this time at Redditch Hospital. She is in the wars, but she is being extremely well looked after

for which we are all inexpressibly grateful. Thank you, Deborah. Josh is in Hackney

Josh, question or answer? I've got a question. Carry on. I would like to know why Heinz baked bean tins don't stack

They do stack. Well, so every brand of tin, so like soup or different supermarkets

they all kind of interlock. And Heinz beans don't. They just sit on top of each other

They kind of fall. Really? Yeah, 100%. I've started to doubt myself, so I got some out of the cupboard

Just to double check. I think they did once. so they don't stack with each other

or with other brands now some tinned foods are cooked in the tin

and others are not I don't mean you cook them in the tin, I mean the manufacturer

cooks them in the tin they're cooked in the tin and the tin is then sealed

so it could be that you are looking at different manufacturing processes here, but then you're going to

point out that some home brand beans do stack, aren't you? I don't have any home brand beans

God, thank the Lord, man. Honestly, there's some money-saving things no one should be forced to

But every tin I have, they almost interlock. They kind of sit into each other

And you could probably stack four, five, six and it'd be safe. I know what a stacking tin means. I don't need a diagram

But the Heinz beans do not stack? Yeah. Well, it's going to have something to do

with the manufacturing process, but I know what it isn't. Okay. Umami

Exactly. It's on the board. Why don't Heinz beans tins? Heinz beans

Heinz means beans. Amelia Cox has your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC

12. We didn't give John in Warrington the credit he deserves for coming back with Iranu

did we? When I said umami and he went Iranu. That's a Vic Reeves reference

I had it bubbling in the back of my mind, but I needed you to remind me

What was the other one we used to do? Was it Munjaro? So I can't remember what the..

What was the other one they used to do, Vic and Bob? They'd do Iranu. And then there were two..

Anyway, that's why Johnny Warrington is a genius and is currently, despite stiff competition

probably, that's between him and Harry, I guess, in the lead for the game

There are currently two phone lines free, which means you have got room for your own question, 0345 6060973

or your answer to the question about the historical origins of rights of way

why you're allowed to walk on some private land or walk through some private land

and not allowed to walk through other private land. And the 29th of February, does it appear

Did it used to appear? Has it ever appeared on official documents

Or have you always been on a birth certificate in particular, particularly one from 19..

Was it 1908? But anyway, 1906 more likely if it's a leap year

Anyway, you are more likely to be encouraged to put down March the 1st. If so, why

Ufafu. Uvavo. Uvavo. God, there's a lot of Vic and Bob fans out there

You'd hope so. I'm getting distracted by my messages. Keith, you're right. Allow me just to turn that off

So we've got the 29th of February question and then we've got the..

the Bayleaf question which inexplicably John wasn't happy with my answer, even though umami is almost certainly the answer

And then I answered the last one. So we're good to go. All right. 03456060973

Joe's in Romford. Joe, question or answer? Question. You don't have to waffle sometimes

You're telling me, mate. You're not coming to this new, are you? No, I've been listening to you for years to waffle on

It's going to seem that I'm being rude now, but I'm not. The phone line's awful

So I'm going to try and fix the phone line and then come back to you. And unfortunately, if you'd wasted less time critiquing my waffle

we might have been able to get the question on the board quicker. Alternatively, if I'd spent less time waffling

then we would have already known what your question is before your phone line went south. David's in West Derby, in Liverpool

David, question or answer? It's a question, James. Carry on, David. It's a cat question

Oh, yes. OK. My cat has just sat on an oblong piece of paper

Oh, not on mat. Not on mat. Not on long piece of paper, white

And every time we put down a sheet of paper, the cat sits on it

Now, I watched YouTube the other day, and a lady made a square on the floor out of tape

And the cat sat in the square. Why'd the cat like sitting on square pieces of paper

or squares made out of tape? Didn't we do this quite recently

Am I the only one paying attention? Obviously, you weren't listening. It's all right. It's not your fault

It's not either I've had a sort of weird dream about this or I'm getting deja vu

Didn't we do this quite recently? Don't be having weird dreams about me, James, please. No, I wouldn't, actually

But maybe a cat. I think a cat. Well, did we do it and not get an answer

Or is anyone listening? I mean, not... I don't mean... No one cares or no one knows

All right. So why do cats sit on squares? White squares or squares made out of tape on the floor

So that would be the inside of that square would just be normal floor Basically yeah And also the thing that it sat on as we speak was a drawing done by my grandchild yesterday on a large piece of paper oblong

and it sits on that. Every time you put a newspaper down, it sits on that

I like it. It's not the paper because the ladies proved that by just... Just drawing a paper on the floor

and then the cat comes in and sits on that, sits on that. Yeah. Yeah, you're on

All right, I like it. Good man. We'll try and find out. I mean, if we haven't done it recently, then I've gone a bit bonkers

Or if we perhaps got the question on the board and didn't get an answer, that would explain why I can't remember it

I like that. David, take care. 12.37 is the time. Let's go back to Joe

Right, with no more beating about the bush, Joe's in Romford. Joe, question or answer

I'm not going to be around anybody. Get on with it. Get on with it, Joe. I've got a question I've been meaning to ask you for years

Go on, then. Because he knows so much. It's not me. I was wondering, can it be identified

Can you tell somebody has a good singing voice from their normal voice

What was that noise in the background then? My dog. Oh, okay

I think your dog was answering. Your dog was going, yes. No, hold on

You get on my nerves, James. There he is. So can you tell? Can you tell a good singing voice from a good talking voice

And your dog went, yes. No. Yes, he did. Just answer the blooming question, will you please

I can't answer it, you cheeky man. I can't answer it at all, but someone else might be able to

Can I ask you whether you have... Okay, hang on. Say some more words to me

Hello, James. How are you? I don't think you have a very good singing voice

I used to. The problem is I'm hitting 70 now, so... That's all right

The voice is gone. I think you probably... I can't. I don't know

All right, do you think I've got a good singing voice? Nah

Okay, right. I think you're a bathroom singer. Well, it's not even that, really

But, I mean, you'd be quite rude about me anyway. I don't think you would have said something nice about me

even if you thought it was true. James, I think you're brilliant. There we go. Give him a board game

Broadcaster of the year. Yes, the best broadcaster on LBC at the moment

Absolutely. Good man. Can you tell from someone's speaking voice whether or not they have a good singing voice

I've no idea. 0345 6060 973. Joe, stay safe. Tristan's in Guildford

Tristan, question or answer? Hello, James. I have an answer for you

Carry on. So it's about the bay leaf question and also a bit on the umami stuff as well

Oh, yes. Okay, so bay leaf is actually just a culinary herb

It's not actually anything to do with umami. No, no, no, no, no, no, no

No, umami is part of the taste it creates. Like seaweed, kelp is just kelp, but it's still got umami

I don't necessarily totally agree with that. You can't disagree with it

That's how umami was discovered, in kelp. Oh, no, no, of course, no, you're right about that

But I wouldn't say a bay leaf derives from the flavour of umami

It delivers, delivers the flavour. It delivers some mild umami when in a broth or a soup

I think it does, but we don't have to agree with that. A little bit of mildy marmy, maybe, if it makes you add more

Yeah, mildy marmy. But yeah, it's used as a culinary herd, just like rosemary, thyme

You normally chuck it in a slow-cooked dish, because basically the flavour and the oils in the leaf anchor out

once you've cooked it for a long time. If you've ever gotten a leaf from a tree outside

you said you've got one at home. Yeah, I have. You just take a leaf and crush it and rub it in your hands

It'll release all those oils, and that's basically what you're going to get in your food. like rosemary

or something like that, it's delicious isn't it yeah of course what am I talking about

the umami bit or rather the question was contingent upon the idea

that if you didn't use it you wouldn't be able to tell as in you wouldn't be able to tell

if you didn't use yeah so David doesn't think, I think it was David was it David or was it, it was John in Warrington

he doesn't think that there's any point to it because he can never really identify whether it's there or not

Well, how long is he cooking his food for? That's what I'd ask. Well, I mean, what would it deliver, though

Because I need you to... Because I think there's only really one word that can describe what it delivers

Yeah, so, I mean, it creates that kind of, like, woody... Meaty, yeasty, yeah

Umami. Not umami. It is umami. It's umami. You know, it gives that very..

Well, look, is it sweet? No, it's not. Is it sour? It's earthy

Is it sour? No, it's not sour. Is it salty? No, it's not salty

Is it bitter? Yes, slightly bitter. No, it's not bitter. No, you did not get me there

It's not bitter, it's not salty, it's not sour, it's not sweet, but it is a flavour

It is a flavour, yeah. If only there were a name for the fifth flavour. If only there were a name for the fifth flavour

that was only discovered in 1908 by a Japanese scientist. Exactly. But you can get umami flavourings mostly

well, from things like aged foods like parmesan, certain tomatoes, shiitake mushrooms

and all of those kind of bits and bobs. You get more dried mushrooms

even more umami than... Is it truffle? Is it truffle umami? Yeah, truffle would be considered

as a type of umami, yeah. I love it. Qualifications? So, I've

worked in food for a long time and I run a social media content business that creates

recipe videos. Sensational. Well, we're going to agree to disagree about umami

in Bailey's, don't we? Well, I'll cook you a dinner sometime and then you can try. Cook me two, actually, and then one with a Bailey

from one without. Exactly, you can take one to work with you. Round of applause for Tristan

Lovely stuff, take care. 12.43 is the time. Ross is in Dundee

Ross, question or answer? I've got a question, please. Carry on. Why do all revolving

doors turn anti-clockwise? What? Revolving doors, when you walk up to them

Now, I know what a revolving door is. Hang on. Let me picture it. I'm walking up to it

It doesn't. That's clockwise. No. Goes that way. Yeah, okay, carry on

So, they all go anti-clockwise. Now, I have to admit... Well, they have to go anti-clockwise

because you push them, you don't pull them. But you can push them the other side

So, yeah, but we're all... I mean, it's biased to right-handed people. Well, actually, do you know what

I have to confess that before I was an avid listener to your show

I checked online, okay? But the internet gave me wrong information which is why I phoning today Stranger things have happened but I think obviously it has to go with the direction that the door user is pushing and because we about 80 right

or more, in fact, I think it might be 90%, it's going to go to the right

because you're going to push with your right hand. No, I would push it with my left hand. Because you go into the right-hand side, right

You go into the right-hand side, you push it with your left hand. Well, all right, then the bias, the right-handed bias

is leaning you towards the right-hand side, and you'll push whatever's in front of you, regardless of what

hand you're going to push it with. I don't think that's right

All right, what's your theory then? Well, somebody said it was to do with the side of the road that you drive on

and it's different in every country, but that can't be right because that's not right for the UK

I think that all revolving doors are going to go the way that you've described, aren't they

Yeah, but why? Well, because we're 90% right-handed. It must be that

You might have answered it. You might have answered it, but, you know... It must be, mustn't it? Are you an expert on revolving doors

No, I'm not. I mean, I can't even begin to pretend that I'm an expert on revolving

I've been through a few. Yeah, I've been through a few. But I can't lay claim to any form of expertise

No. So I'll put it on the board. Hopefully somebody listening, yeah, thanks. I'll put it on the board

And if it's not that, I'll be very interested in the answer. And if it is that, I'll be very smug about having already provided it

Ross, thank you. It's 12.45. James O'Brien on LBC. What's the least expect, isn't it

That revolving door question is causing all sorts of rumpus. And I just need to clarify something

We're talking about putting bay leaves in your casserole, not bay leaves

So whatever you do, do not put bay leaves, the sort of creamy whiskey liqueur

Don't put that in anything that is savoury. And certainly don't message me to tell me the things

that you have put bay leaves in that were massively improved by the presence. So bay leaves, two words, bay leaf

not bay leaves, putting bay leaves in your chilli cart, for goodness sake

Russ is in Bangor. Russ, question or answer? It's an answer. Carry on

It's the advertising on the television. Oh, yes. It depends. Does it

So I'm going to give you the historical answer, and I'll give you what's happening now. Okay

I'll give you the now, actually, first. The now is that your TV is watching you. So when you buy a new TV

there's a screen you get that says, do you agree to all of this? And none of us read it

Yeah. But what it means is it then uses technology to see what you're watching

Quite literally, it's taking screenshots of your screen as you're watching telly

and building up a pattern of who you are. Same with lots of other technologies these days

if you haven't read the terms and conditions. Yeah, so it's called automatic content recognition

So it knows when you're watching the football and it knows when you're watching The Price is Right or whatever it is that you're watching

And then it serves ads based on that. Historically, though, which I think was where you thought the answer was..

So different people watching the same programme are going to have different commercial breaks on terrestrial television

Yes. Shut the front door. Shut the front door, yeah. It's called Automatic Content Recognition

You can go and Google it afterwards if you want. I don't doubt you. I haven't asked what your qualifications are yet

If you turn out to be an ice cream man, then we might have to have words. I'm an ice cream man

How did you know I was an ice cream man? I'll be watching two people watching the same programme

on terrestrial television stations that are going to have different adverts. On a modern television

That's the bit. Okay. So if you've got one of these TVs where you've had to give permission at the start... Yeah

...before you even... When you set it up, it says... I can play game. I can play Xbox on my telly

So I've obviously got a modern. Yeah, yeah, yeah, all of that. So even in the same house, two people in the same house

with two televisions watching the same programme could get different commercial breaks? No, no

Why not? That's the same TV on the same IP address. IP address, crucial point. Carry on

Okay, so historically, though, it wasn't about time, which you thought it was

It was about the type of TV you were watching. And so when they served football in history

so when they served football on old TVs in the old days, when you've got an aerial on top of your house

that they were making guest inmates. that are saying, well, people watching football are probably going to drink lager

or they're probably going to go and bet. And that's how they did it. They based it on the TV show you're watching

Yeah, no, I get it. I mean, it was a little bit more nuanced than that, wasn't it

It wouldn't always be tailor-made, but that would be the general drive. It was a guesstimate to everybody

but in that case, it was everybody watching football got the same ads. And then you've also got

if you're watching daytime television on what we used to call satellite channels, it's quite cheap to get adverts there

So you'll get adverts for quite, you know, small outfits and operations or people selling like you know military coins or something i used

my my friend used to watch a lot of rubbish and when i went around to see him he uh he would be

watching adverts for like gold bullion and things like that and that's just because it's quite cheap

at that time of day and the audience is likely to be older although you know the plates with cats on

or like the plates when the royals do that kind of thing yeah that kind of thing exactly and you

find them on the back page of the Radio Times, that's a lot

of money. That's a serious spend. That's one of the most expensive places you could place an ad

The back of the Radio Times, so they're not necessary. I was thinking more of a local travel agent

that somehow pops up on the cricket on Sky News. And it's localised

as well. Yeah. A bit about the ads. So he won't only get

a funeral parlour, he might get Dave's funeral parlour in his town on his telly now. So Lewis

is getting adverts that sadly think he's older than he thinks he is yeah or he he didn't he didn't read the terms of conditions when he when he set his

telly up there it is there there it is so and i still i mean i believe you but i don't believe you

do you know what i mean you could yeah it's up to you well i no but i believe you because you sound

very convincing and i'll ask you what your qualifications are i'm a marketing consultant

global one actually if i wanted to be really big about it there you go i've been doing it for 18

years. And so I believe you, but I can't believe that if the neighbours are watching the same programme

as me, they can get different adverts on normal ITV. Best thing to do is get one of your kids or somebody to stand

between the two houses and watch the same show and wait for the advert to come on. No, I mean, it's a..

How many people knew that? Hands up. Everyone listening. Put your hand up now

It's called Automatic Content Recognition and it's going to get more precise

You live and learn, eh? Round of applause. So he's literally watching him. Yeah? No, I get it

I get it. Yeah. Round of applause for Ross. and making all of these decisions, not just about adverts

I mentioned it the other day. My friend Alexis Conran has written a brilliant sub-stack about this

He's fascinated by it, or used to do the real hustle on the telly

looking into sort of more obvious scams and hustles. But this is just an interesting modern development

that Russ has nailed down perfectly. There you go, flipping heck, Lewis. Bad news, really, for you

Ray's in Orpington. Ray, question or answer? Answer, James. Carry on, Ray. I mean someone who could tell a good singing voice was Giacchino Rossini who was the composer of William Tell and Figaro Figaro Figaro Barbara of Seville born in Pizarro in Italy in 1792 officially on the 29th of February

Wow. I don't know why you got a round of applause there, but I mean, because I didn't..

I didn't deliver him, you know. But do we know, was that on his birth certificate

Yes, yes, yes. Well, I mean, I've always known that it was the 29th of February

Any biography of him straight away says born on the 29th of February

And there was one kid's music book where they said, you know, he only had so many birthdays

because unfortunately for him he was born on the 29th of February. But I don't know if this helps us establish whether or not

Nigel's grandad in 1906 was born on the 1st of March or the 19th of February, 29th of February

There I can't help you. I don't go back that far. Well, have another round of applause anyway

But also, you're a bit of a music buff, I sense. Yeah

Do you know whether or not you can tell whether or not someone has a good singing voice from their speaking voice

I don't know. I always think it's odd. I mean, it always fascinates me, the accent thing, you know

how people usually, unless it's something like The Proclaimers or British people trying to sound American

when you sing, you can't tell the accent. Someone will have a broad Scottish or Irish accent

but you can't tell that necessarily unless it's deliberate. Yeah, like you say, the Proclaimers are a really good example

Mike Skinner as well, the streets. Because around when he broke through, most sort of rappers and hip-hop artists

were all trying to sound American, and he didn't. He didn't make any effort whatsoever to sound anything other than exactly who he is

But lovely stuff, Ray. I'll leave it on the board. I loved that, as when I was a kid, the William Tell Overture

I would have struggled to remember who it was by, but though... What did it go on? Was it the Lone Ranger

That's right, Lone Ranger. And also, also appropriately, William Tell on television, the series

with Conrad Phillips. They even set words to it. Come away, come away with William Tell

Come away to the land he loves so well. Bit before my time, that. You can still get it on DVD

Oh, there you go. I love the Lone Ranger, though. Thank you, Ray. Brian's in Wigan

Brian, question or answer? Answer, please, James. I think I know which one it is

if you're in Wigan. Yep. Go on. Brian's employee for 32 years

32 years? 32 years. Wow. Yeah. Just up the road. No, I've retired now

OK. All night shifts as well. Anyway, to get back to the cans

the reason the cans are not stacking and they very often fall over

is because the bottom of the can and what we call the body of the can

is one piece unlike the lid or the top. Originally, they were three-piece

two ends and a body. Then, years and years ago, when I was there

they decided to change the baby food line over to make it a two-piece can

and that did away with the weld in the centre. So it saved a few quid, did it

Well, it's not just that. They wanted to get rid of any lead or anything

that could penetrate the product. Right. But eventually, the whole set-up became two-piece

And there was a problem in the production line because they were forever falling over on the conveyors, these cans

Yeah? Because of this round edge. If you look at the bottom of the can, it's not squirrel at the top

No, is it beveled? Is the word beveled? Well, it's like a bevel, yeah

It's a bit like a bevel. So what they did, they put like a twister involved

that turned the cans over before they hit the conveyor, which eradicated that problem

It's a straight... I mean, what was the feeling at work at the time? Because everyone likes to stack their cans

and you can't stack your... Well, you do, yeah. I mean, if they're in a pack

you just put the pack... That's true. ...and just stack on the pack sort of thing. Yeah, because it's in the cardboard now, isn't it

It's in the cardboard. Yeah, so you put four on four or whatever. That was the problem. And then they brought the ring pull out as well

That was a bit of a problem. Does that make stacking not impossible

You can stack some ring pull. I think I stacked my tuner. Well, you can stack them now because, like I said

they'd normally upside down going through the system and then they turn back again at the end

because that's where you've got your production cord on the top so you can actually tell the actual

minute the can was filled. This is lovely. Qualifications. 32 years on the job

32 years flipping. How hard was it to adjust your body clock when you came off 32 years doing noise

I never really got into a body clock. What, you did it for 32 years

three, four days on the night shift and then you come off a couple of days on

normal hours. Yeah. And you go back again, so you never really had a body clock

Still not got one. I've been gone 15 years now. Yeah, but you're sounding very

well on it, Brian. Yeah, I'm doing well. Did you get a good staff discount

We did at the beginning. It was unbelievable at the beginning. A penny a can baby fridge

That was back in 79, that. Good Lord. When you left... And then there was a cry when they went up to two peas

Everybody said it was a 100% increase. And it was ridiculous. What was it when you left

When I left, I think they were about 10p. That's not bad, is it

And is there any... Did you get, I mean, any benefits as a pensioner, as a Heinz pensioner

Is there any special benefits for you? Well, you get the option of going back to the shop when you can

You can go into the factory shop. There you go. That's one of my favourite answers in a long time

I very rarely get anyone quite as qualified as you, Brian. Have a round

The amount of cans that's passed my eyes, James, over the years must be phenomenal

What, billions? Billions, literally billions. There it is. I've almost certainly eaten a can that you would have handled

I'll be honest with you, after the first shift, my eyes closed when I got in bed

and I could not get them cans out of my eyes. I can believe you. It's unbelievable. Again and again and again, just going off

I'll do it all again, I'll be honest. I'll do it all again. Great camaraderie as well

Good to be young. On a production line, great camaraderie, I think. It was brilliant

it was a pleasure lovely stuff thank you Brian you've ended off a really enjoyable show

in absolutely cracking fashion if you missed any of it you can listen oh hang on oh

oh no I've got to pick a winner now oh it's got to be Brian

it's got to be Brian hasn't it it's got to Brian if he wants it if he doesn't want it

give it to someone else if you missed any of today's show you can listen back

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