'If you want Farage as PM, you're either a mug or a billionaire' | James O'Brien - The Whole Show

What's the longest monologue we've ever done, Keith

What's the record at the moment? We've taken it all the way up to the half-past news, haven't we

Not a good move, given that the adverts pay all our wages and I somehow managed to forget all about them

I think you were off that day, weren't you? What's that? We're live? Oh, morning. It's four minutes after ten

You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC, where I have quite a lot to say, obviously

but not perhaps in the celebratory tone that you might expect. One of the first things I was..

Do I need to tell you what the story is before we get stuck into talking about it

I probably should. Various extremely close confidants and colleagues of Nigel Farage were filmed by Channel 4 News

Or rather, were filmed by an investigative journalist operation, effectively planning or apparently planning to make donations to the party that would be against the rules

possibly, probably against the law, but they remain allegations at the moment

Nigel Farage is doing what he always does. He is wriggling and weaseling

Shall I tell you how close a contact they are? This fellow who he called a contractor

on Nick Ferrari's show this morning, called Dan Jukes. I kind of recognise the name

Did a bit quick check in the office. He used to sit here when Farage was on this radio station

He used to sit next to the people answering the phones, trying to steer the direction of the programme

or at least observing very closely what my colleagues were trying to do on that show

That's how distant to contact he is. That's how much of a mere contractor, an outsider, brought in to, I don't know, preside over some very specific issues

And James Orr, he's supposed to be the intellectual genius at the heart of the operation

The Cambridge academic, everybody above a certain level at Cambridge these days is called a professor

He's technically a doctor, calls himself a theologian, big on Christianity, except the bits about lying

and so you know that this is a canker that goes right to the heart of the reform operation

these people couldn't be more senior the head of policy and the factotum

the man who has told people he would be Farage's effective chief of staff in Downing Street

conspiring on tape with somebody he believed to be a foreign donor

and therefore somebody whose donations to a British political party would be impermissible

So here's what Farage does. I'm going to just run you through it in case you've not noticed for yourself before

We have no choice but to carry the headline in the news bulletins

Nigel Farage has told LBC that no laws have been broken. But if you were to go back two months, Nigel Farage was telling anyone who would listen

that he hadn't broken any of the rules regarding the secret £5 million given to him

by the Thai-based billionaire Christopher Harbourn. And then, if you follow these things as closely as you should, but can't if you want to sustain support for this character, and then slowly began to backtrack from that statement to the point where now he said, well, maybe I filled in some paperwork wrongly

So when he said there was absolutely no question that I broke any rules

he was either quite spectacularly ignorant or lying. I don't know whether the same applies today

He is either spectacularly ignorant or lying, but he can't say that no laws have been broken

because he is not the person whose job it is to decide whether or not laws have been broken

Have a former head of the Electoral Commission making it pretty clear he thinks they might have been

Seven minutes after ten is the time. the thing that struck me most watching the footage last night i try to watch channel 4 news i don't

always but i was given a quick heads up about 10 minutes before it started last night that i might

want to tune in the thing that struck me most and the thing that i don't know if you were listening

yesterday we had a caller from the archives liam um who who sounded like somebody who used to ring

in after brexit to insist that everything was going to be brilliant and and it never goes well

I don't enjoy it as much as I used to I have to be honest with you because it kind of

what's the phrase I'm looking for I don't have an excessive empathy

but I see victims where you perhaps see mugs and cucks that's a popular word at the moment

to describe people that have been taken advantage of I see victims and I speak to people who believe things that are not true

whether it's about Donald Trump whether it's about Brexit whether it was about Boris Johnson

whether it was about Nigel Farage and they believe things that are not true

And if you act according to believing things that are not true, you do yourself harm

So I don't enjoy it as much as I used to. I don't know whether you can tell that

but I think about people like him, and then I notice that every meeting that these characters have

is in some of the most exclusive venues on the planet, never mind in this country

going to Rules in Covent Garden. It's the kind of... Jay Rayner, who's my guest on Full Disclosure this week

the restaurant critic on the Financial Times. His first column was set in rules

because it is such an iconic and exclusive restaurant. That's the kind of place you go for your anniversary

if it's a big one, if it's got a nought in it, you know? And I'm not short of a quid or two

That is not the kind of place you go every week unless you are a fully paid-up member

of what could be loosely described as the establishment. Going to Mark's Club

which is the place set up by the fellow who founded Annabelle's

arguably the most exclusive nightclub that London has ever seen and he went on to set up a place called Mark's

and this James Orr character arranged to meet one of the journalists pretending to be a potential donor in Mark's Club

not in a wimpy bar, not even in a nice private member's place

that you can join for 100 quid a month you know, it's..

that's the bit that really gets... I know it's an odd thing to go in on

but that's the bit that really gets me when I have the words and the voice of somebody like Liam

yesterday's caller, still echoing in my ear and then I watch Farage sitting down and ordering champagne and oysters

as he congratulates somebody for making a donation that was used to pay for opinion polls

that quite possibly broke all sorts of rules. We'll have to wait and see

But the form book is fairly reliable in this case. That's the thing I think of

I don't think of the sort of the people who are probably part of

you know the kind of people that turn up to protest outside

buildings where migrants are living where refugees are living and turn out to have a criminal record

longer than your arm I don't think of them although they're Farage fans as well

of course they weren't called the Farage riots for nothing I think of the people who are actually okay

and then you get cross with me and then you get cross with me

for thinking that they're actually okay. You know, the caller yesterday, I'm unhappy about me describing reform supporters

as either racists or people who are comfortable with racism, and you can't argue with that

unless you're going to say, no, I'm really, really uncomfortable with it, but not uncomfortable enough to take away my vote

The two words that the British public most commonly associate with Nigel Farage are racist and liar

And you wouldn't know it, would you, from most of the British media, the media that brought you

Sorry to labor the point. Brexit, Boris Johnson, Liz Truss, austerity, Boris Johnson, support for Donald Trump

Remember when they used to talk about Trump derangement syndrome The bravest man I ever met is how Nigel Farage prefers to describe Donald Trump The bravest man I ever met You need to get out my mate Seriously

And so, that's the thing that struck me most. The fancy nature of the places that are his milieu

I didn't know what to do for the little clip at the top of, towards the end of next show

I didn't know whether to go in on the line that I went in on

which is breaking news, the Pope's a Catholic, bears shalalalala in the woods

and Nigel Farage is up to his ears in allegations of financial misconduct. But the alternative was, I was going to steal a joke off Chris Addison

from the thick of it and lots of other brilliant things, who simply said, extraordinary revelations on Channel 4 News last night

Nigel Farage was filmed in Clacton because he was campaigning. He was supposed to be campaigning in a by-election

called to close down questions about his financial arrangements and he has neither the wit nor the

conscience to think well let's just put anything financial on hold until i've dealt with this

and then when he met the person who is at the center of these allegations his attempts or

subsequent attempts to claim or any future attempts to claim that he knew absolutely

nothing about it fell apart like a cheap suit not that nigel farage knows much about cheap suits

anymore. Another mark of his anti-establishment credentials as he swans between Mayfair's most

exclusive private members clubs in bespoke tailoring and people like Liam think he's on

their side. People like you maybe or your mum or your dad think that he's on their side. And that

I'm afraid is why I'm not enjoying this story as much as a lot of you seem to think that I would do

Because I mean it proves obviously many of the things we've talked about over the years to be

true, but we already knew they were true. My thoughts go immediately to the people who still

don't. Nick had two or three callers whose desperation was visible from space, tying

themselves into all sorts of notes. Oh, it's not fair. And remember the spectacles. It's really

simple. That story didn't deserve the attention that it got, but that's the country that we live

in. That's the media that we've got. Labour Prime Minister turns out to have accepted some

spectacles from a mate, and we all go absolutely mad. Nigel Farage, a putative Prime Minister

leading in the polls at the time, accepts £5 million in secret

from a Thai-based billionaire. Two very rich men in the crypto world

are responsible for almost all of the money that Reform UK has received

And one of them was pardoned by Donald Trump for financial crimes

I mean, what do you need? A map? Seriously? A handy guide to reasons why

people shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the chains of power? What do you need

and that's when we come back to the conversation that Nick was having with Caroline

towards the end of his programme because she believes and many of you believe

there's nothing there's nothing you can do you could shoot someone on Park Lane

and not lose a single vote now that's not true because his approval ratings are tanking

his personal approval ratings the question regarding people who think he might do a good job as Prime Minister

or people who approve of his performance they're absolutely tanking the party's still holding up in the polls

considering all of the shenanigans, allegations, all of the behaviour. Was it Luke or Liam, the caller yesterday

It might have been Luke. I've done a grave disservice. It might be Farrah, actually, to give him a..

Oh, it was Luke, not Liam. Forgive me. That's the thing, isn't it

Will he lose? Does it matter? Because if it doesn't matter, what's going on

If it doesn't matter, what is going on? You can get your head around racism, right

It's an ugly, ugly thing, but a lot of people have it to varying degrees

It's a spectrum. I wonder whether we're all on it in some way, shape, or form

We all have a sort of inbuilt evolutionary fear of the other

or whatever it is that explains this curious condition. But, you know, we're raised, if you're lucky enough to be raised by decent parents

not to indulge those prejudices, not to inflame those bigotries, not to articulate those hatreds

Some people are raised differently. Some people rise differently. And you can get your head around that

Why on earth do you hate people who weren't born here? Zia Yusuf, whose parents weren't born here

Why on earth do you hate people who weren't born here? Well, I don't..

I mean, they frighten... They don't look like... You can almost get your head around a fear of the other, right

And then you look over the Atlantic and you see people who are supremely comfortable

with a very real possibility that Donald Trump is doing the bidding of the Kremlin

You don't have to go over the Atlantic. You've got the Daily Mail columnists and others

You've got Dick Littlejohn going on about how he wishes Donald Trump was ruling this country when almost every expert in the field, proper expert

makes a compelling case for him being a Kremlin stooge. Or at the very least, no one can answer the question of what he would do differently

if he wasn't doing the bidding of Vladimir Putin. Answer, nothing. He wouldn't do anything differently

And people still don't care. It's racism that big. Is it that big

That you're sitting there today and you're thinking, yeah, he took five million quid secretly

I was furious about Keir Starmer's spectacles, but good old Nigel, he's got five million quid in his back pocket

which was donated secretly by someone who's set to make an absolute fortune, sorry, several more absolute fortunes

in the event of Nigel Farage becoming Prime Minister. How do we know that? because they literally published the policies

that would make Christopher Harbourn considerably richer than he is now, and then when news of the £5 million donation emerged

they deleted them from their website. Oh, it's a witch hunt. Oh, why are they all attacking Nigel

Oh, it doesn't matter. Is it really just racism? Is that all you get in return for not caring about this kind of conduct

You're sitting there this morning going, right okay um uh flip um it's a witch hunt they're attacking him it's not fair they're contractors

no laws have been brought hey i don't know what are you doing it for what are you clinging to

it's so strange it's so strange what are you clinging to when you defend this guy or when

you pretend or when you kid yourself or when you tell yourself that this isn't important

is racism really that big? or is there something else going on here

is that the question? is that the question today? I think it probably is, isn't it

03456060973 I think the person in your life that is in this category

the person you've got I'm reluctant to tell you exactly who it was

if I haven't already but someone, one of the people I grew up loving

more than almost anyone else in the world. One of my godparents

would have been at that conference in Birmingham today. I last saw him at my own father's funeral

I tried to steer clear of politics, obviously. But he'd be there today

And I hate the idea. I mean, surely he must... They must have been getting something else out of this

They must have been. But I can't see what. I can see what What else are you getting Farage aid and policy chief step down so the official party line is already they stepping down while we mark our own homework 30P Lee goes on the telly this morning and says

oh, no, they won't be coming back. They can't even get their own story straight. They are so utterly ridiculous

so monumentally incompetent that you sit here as even a vaguely sentient human being

and wonder what the hell he would have to do, they would have to do for that spell to be broken

that spell that has entranced your mum or that spell who's got your Uncle Bob on a string

or that spell that you're under while arguing furiously with the arrogant, condescending prat on the radio

that there's any spell here at all. It's not a spell. I just want to change

It's not a spell. I've had enough of the two-party system. So, OK, a two-party system

You're just not telling yourself the truth, are you? it's just not that you're telling the truth and you know it's it's not even the the bigotry or

the racism that makes you have a patriotic desire not to see him ever get into downing street it's

just the obvious incompetence and all the alleged corruption you are either a mug or a billionaire

set to make a ton of money if you want nigel farish to be prime minister right and it's really easy to

work out which you are are you a mug or are you a billionaire poised to make a ton of money out of

policies that he is already promising to introduce. Just check your bank balance

That's all you've got to do. Go to your ATM. Check your bank balance. Don't tell me your pin

Punch it in. Have a look at your bank balance. Work out whether you're a mug or whether or not you are set to make a ton of money

out of Nigel Farage's political success. Or is there something else going on

I mean, is it unfair? Is it unfair? is it just the racism

0345 6060 973 I'm not sure I've finished but we should take a break

and I would quite like you to ring in on this because I mean you know people you are someone perhaps

who can explain why you don't mind you're going to turn a blind eye to this

because the prize within your grasp is so beautiful right what's the prize

what's the prize they can't even get their own story straight on a day like today

Imagine them being in charge of, I don't know, a Falklands invasion

Or imagine this lot being in charge of a financial crisis. Imagine this lot being in charge of a cyber attack from Russia

Actually, that's not so hard to imagine, given that one of Farage's closest confidants

turned out to be taking money from a Kremlin stooge in order to spread Kremlin talking points through British political discourse

The leader of the party in Wales, by the way, not just some contractor or some outsider or some also-ran

You don't even need to go to the ATM. You've probably got an app on your phone. Just check it now and work out

Are you a mug or are you a billionaire set to make a ton of money out of Nigel Farage's political success

What is it? Why will some people... I don't know. Are we letting the tail wag the dog on this one

I mean, it isn't true that it makes no difference, but it doesn't make enough difference

it doesn't make enough difference 0345 6060973 is it just the racism

and the person in your life or indeed you who are under the spell

you object to my use of the word cult but it's better than the alternative

you are in the cult what would it take for you to leave

how can you be comfortable with this stuff? 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need

It's 1023. James O'Brien on LBC. It is 1024 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

Let's just refresh your memory or indeed introduce you to the latest scandal to engulf Nigel Farage

Of course, the last few scandals to engulf him are far from over. The investigations continue into money he's secretly accepted from a foreign-based billionaire

into allegations that a strange young man and convicted fraudster who calls him daddy

has been funneling money into the party via inappropriate routes. All of these still under investigation

And of course, these are the ones we know about. You know, how likely is it that you only do this stuff once if you think you can get away with it

And the whole thrust of what was broadcast on Channel 4 last night in cooperation with an investigative journalist organization called Verbatim

The whole thrust of it was their belief that they can get away with it. So here he is with an undercover actor posing as a journalist's American donor father

telling Nigel Farage that he paid for a poll that you would not have seen in the Telegraph or the Times

if it had been known that reform were involved in any way or that reform personnel were involved in any way

in the commissioning of that poll. And here it is. He can't help himself

Oh, by the way, they're having champagne and oysters, of course. I was thrilled to be able to pick up the tab for the polls that you had commissioned

That was great. And the third poll. It worked. Boom. Right. When I saw the third poll on the front page of the Times

because William sent it to me, I thought, well, all right, these are people who know how to spend their money

and that's what I want to see. Bang for the buck. Bang. That's exactly the truth

Bang for the buck. Bang for the buck. And now, of course, bang to rights

He came on with Nick earlier today and did what you could have predicted in advance he would do

which is to deny everything. And then, of course, the denials start retreating

just as they've done with the five million quid. And the thing is, I get a few of these

I like these. This is from Graham. I must confess to be enjoying head of the industrial moron complex

James O'Brien's desperation at anything Farage does and that Farage lives at the epicentre of O'Brien's spiritual brain, rent-free

It's made my day, says Graham. Graham, we both know it hasn't. We both know that you're sitting there feeling absolutely stupid

and you're going to lash out at the person who's warned you that you're being taken advantage of for years

You're not going to lash out at the person who's taking advantage of you. And that's fine. That's why I'm here

It's why you tune in. It's a bizarre sort of masochism. Every day, more evidence that you're an idiot and almost certainly a racist

Because what else are you getting out of this? What is it you think I'm worried about? I'm worried about an incompetent, probably corrupt, possibly corrupt, allegedly corrupt individual

who takes bungs from foreign billionaires in return for unspecified things, having control of your country

That's what I'm worried about, mate. What are you looking forward to most? Give me a ring, man

0345 6060973. Anyway, here he is with Nick Ferrari. The party has broken no laws

The party has not taken any dodgy money or anything like that whatsoever

However, it is a clear case of entrapment, and they worked at it for a very, very long time

and they got a couple of our contractors to say things that perhaps should not have been said

And as a result of that you know they have been removed this morning and yeah you know I not happy about it Contractors what a contractor honestly i telling you now that lad was sitting here police on i don know was he policing the phone

he was just sitting here what did he do carry farage's briefcase around how long ago is this

10 years 10 years ago a contractor he was carrying farage's briefcase around this building when he

presented a program on this radio state i'm just a contractor just james or head of policy i think

is his official title. He was boasting about being the man with the plan

Just a contractor. That's the other thing, isn't it, Graham? If he's going to treat the people

that actually work for him like this the minute the heat is turned up

what do you think he thinks are mugs like you, mate? Drinking his champagne and eating his oysters

and you're sitting there in, I presume, your diminished existence and he's just laughing at you

He's going to throw his own protege under a bus and call him a contractor at the first moment of trouble

What's he going to do with you, mate? Honestly. Give your head a wobble

And then I think we'll squeeze... We'll do it after the news because it's two minutes long

I want you also to hear the conversation about this polling, which is at the centre of the allegations

Remember, they still can't get their story straight. The two people talking about the poll have stood down

because when they talked about money from America, this is Nigel Farage's word

that's the reason, but it didn't happen and they were entrapped and we're going to investigate it

And then Lee Anderson, 30p himself, goes on the telly elsewhere and claims that they're never coming back at all

So what's the point of the investigation? They can't even get their story straight today

but you still want him to run the country. Okay. That is something I would love you to try to explain

It's half past ten. Dominic Ellis has your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC

133 is the time you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

Have another listen to this. You're sort of talking about, um... I think gastropods yesterday, weren't we

I can't even remember why it popped up on Mystery Hour. But when you have a problem with slugs

you can use either beer or salt. Salt's horrible. This is what it sounds like when you see a slug writhing in a saucer full of salt

The party has broken no laws. The party has not taken any dodgy money or anything like that whatsoever

However, it is a clear case of entrapment. And they worked at it for a very, very long time

And they got a couple of our contractors to say things that perhaps should not have been said

And as a result of that, you know, they have been removed this morning

And yeah, you know, I'm not happy about it. 1034, just so you know, entrapment generally involves law enforcement

persuading someone to commit a crime that they wouldn't otherwise have committed

It is entirely the wrong word to use in this sort of context

but that doesn't matter because that's what he does. And of course he was also asked by Nick Ferrari about the polling

which is at the heart of some of these allegations. Reformer UK did not commission the poll

an independent corporate entity commissioned the poll. But it was funded, Mr Farage, it was funded by a supposed overseas rich donor

Well, number one, it had nothing to do with the party whatsoever. And number two, polling can be paid for by anybody

provided it's put into the public domain. But this wasn't put into the public domain

And then when it was said to you at the meal in Clacton, you said, thank you, thank you

when it appeared that more money was coming your way? Again, from an overseas source, Mr Farage

No, no, no, no. The polling is there's no question of immigality over the polling whatsoever, right

None. I've got strong KC's opinion on that, and there's plenty of precedent to it

Nothing. Whilst the poll benefited reform, it wasn't commissioned by reform. It had nothing to do with reform

It was an independent third party that did it. So that's nothing

That's nothing, right? No, but you say that, Mr Farage. but it was funded via an overseas financial donor

Polls are funded by overseas people every single week. Every single week of the year

So did you know that it was being funded by an overseas financial donor? I had absolutely no idea

The first thing I saw was it on the front page of the Times. They then told me at lunch that they'd funded it

I said, well done, great, boom. So if it's not wrong, why have these two people stood down

because that is not the issue the issue is when they talked about when they talked about

putting money in that might come originally from america all right that's the reason why

that's the reason why and that clearly can't be done under electoral law now it didn't happen

it didn't happen so no laws have been broken and yes they were entrapped into saying what they said

but you know we're going to investigate it but on the face of it they said things that shouldn't

have been said so let's just refresh our memories on that pole that had nothing to do with him or

his party and what circumstances in your life do you say boom you know something goes really well

right something goes really well do you say boom about things that have nothing to do with you do

you just sort of walk around going boom over somebody else's good fortune or i don't know

but anyway here you are a little reminder i was thrilled to be able to pick up the tab for the

polls that you had commissioned. That was great. And the third poll

It worked. Boom. Right. When I saw the third poll on the front page of the Times, because he sent it to me, I

thought, well, all right, these are people who know how to spend our money

And that's what I want to see. Bang for the buck. Bang. That's exactly the thing

Bang for the buck. You had commissioned. I was thrilled to be able to pick up the tab for the polls that you had commissioned

I know. Thank you. And yet, you heard him talking to Nick Ferrari

about the fact that they hadn't commissioned these polls at all. And I'm getting bang for my buck

says the man who describes himself as having paid for the polls

that Nigel Farage is already trying to insist this morning that had nothing to do with him

I mean, this is what I mean, you know, by the kind of human dimension to this

not the political dimension. You get... I don't want to pick on Graham

I'll try and find someone else who's got in touch to try and make this about me rather than them

or indeed him. But that's the thing. There he is lying. I mean, obviously

Claiming... Well, I mean, he's telling Porky's in one of those contexts

Why didn't he explain to the... Oh, no, I'm terribly sorry. I must correct you there, Mr. Rich Foreign Billionaire

We didn't commission those polls at all. It was absolutely nothing to do with us. He's saying thank you and well done

He's saying boom. And he comes on the radio this morning trying to defend himself by claiming the exact opposite

Two things cannot be true at the same time. in these kind of scenarios

It's extraordinary. And here's the thing, right? This claim about entrapment should be taken to pieces as well

because everybody on this knows that it's not true, but there will be people

who have deluded themselves. I have to work on the principle that if I show you what's going on

you are not lost. You are still capable of returning to a world

where the truth matters, you know, where the light is on. I can't believe it's just the racism. If it's just the racism, I've got nothing. I can't help you, except to say don't be racist

But if it isn't just the racism, if there's something else going on, then think about this

What would you do if you were confident or you were suspicious that a major political figure was taking donations illegally

What would you do? How would you find out? You'd pretend to be a potential donor, right? But why on earth would you have that suspicion

Why on earth would you be interested in trying to prove an unfounded allegation, perhaps

What would make you think that this was worth doing? You know, the old line about there's no smoke without fire

So have a listen to this. This is an exchange between Dan Dukes, the contractor, as Nigel Farage describes him

despite the fact that he was sitting here ten years ago polishing Farage's shoes when he presented a show on this radio station

and the undercover journalist at the centre of the verbatim investigation. And hold that thought in your mind, OK

Why would on earth, why would they go to all this trouble to explore the possibility of them taking money

that they're not allowed to take from a foreign-based entity? Here's a clue

You realise that you can do it. You can do it. A key moment

Dukes suggests William can pay using his father's money. Actually, that kind of disrupts me. There's a solution

The solution is that the father gives the money to his son, William

who hands it over to reform. That would be illegal. But Dukes claims they've done it several times before

But, you know, serious point. He denies to his son. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah

they don't know through their kids yeah so that is i don't know how many different names were disguised by those beeps inserted by channel

four news and it was their inimitable chief correspondent alex thompson providing some of

the commentary there. But there's one reason why you might smell a rat, why the investigation was

undertaken. You know, Westminster is a febrile place. Opinion poll findings are being published

on the front pages of newspapers like The Times and The Daily Telegraph. And some people might be

going, where the hell did those polls come from? They're incredibly Farage friendly. Another

shameful bit in that filming last night showed one of the people responsible for the polling

essentially saying, well, we can get polling to deliver whatever verdict you want

But obviously, if it were to come out that it had been paid for by a political party

and the polling looked favourable to a political party, then it wouldn't be newsworthy

It would stink to high heaven. Those are my words, not theirs

So you've got to get it in front of the journalists who are, well, they've got a lot of questions to answer themselves over at the Times and the Telegraph

You've got to get it in front of the journalists without any suspicion that it has actually been paid for or commissioned by the political party

that emerges very positively from the polling. And there is Dan Dukes

He's got a succession, I don't know what word to use, there seem to be a succession of sort of shiny-faced young men

who have a really strange relationship with him. One of them calls him Daddy, reportedly

And you've got one of them literally telling someone he thinks is the son of a foreign billionaire that we've done this before

we do this all the time. Beep did it. Beep did it

Even educated Beep did it. We do this all the time, and that's what he's saying

And there he is on the radio this morning trying to pretend that there's nothing to see here

Trying to pretend that these people, these, I don't know, surrogate sons

these weird little protégés, are just contractors. His own head of policy is just a contractor

And, you know, people still go for it. People still go for it

It's quite fascinating to me. will never stop being fascinating to me

You know how I respond to the polling in America. I don't respond by going like Simon does

oh, look at this, the numbers are really tanking. I respond by going, how can anybody still be on board

with this obvious depravity, with this obvious insanity? And here it's the same, with this obvious dishonesty

You get encouraged slightly by the fact that the two words most associated with this man

by the British public are racist and liar. But, you know, that's like associating the words

Catholic and wears a funny hat with the Pope. It's so obvious from space to everybody that

you're left with this horrible question. Is it just the racism? Is that all that they like? Is

that what they're there for? The surrogate sons, the billionaire, not the billionaire donors

Maybe I need to rephrase my little test. You are either a racist or you're a billionaire set to

make a ton more money out of Nigel Farage's political success. And it's easy to check which

you are. Just go and have a look at your bank balance and you'll be able to establish whether

you're a racist mug or a billionaire set to make a ton more money out of Nigel Farage's political

success. And I can't see any third option there. Except you're both. You're a billionaire and a

racist, but you're not a mug. You see what I mean? Why else could you not care? How else would you

not care? It's a cult, right? It's got to be a cult. Unless this is the end of the peer show

Unless this is enough for you and your mum to think, actually, do you know what? I can't believe

ever fell for him. Unbelievable. 03-45-6060-973 is the number you need to answer whatever question it is

that I've asked over the course of the last 45 minutes that you've somehow managed to remember

Tom Swarbrick on LBC. Would you question an elected official's loyalty to this country if they'd been born overseas

It's a version of Reds under the beds, I think. You automatically assume

or you have somewhere in the back of your brain, belief that because they weren't born here

they can't display the kind of loyalty that you would need for someone who is in high office

Is that what Zia Yusuf means? In a way, it is the ultimate form of identity politics that the right apparently eschew and hate

Tom Swarbrick, Monday to Friday from 4pm. Listen on our free Global Player app or the LBC app

Thank you

Thank you Thank you

Thank you

Thank you

It is 10.47 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

where the question really is the question for the ages, isn't it

Is it just the racism? Farage up to his neck again in allegations of financial shenanigans

already twisting and turning, already changing their story, already contradicting each other

already trying to disown the people responsible, even though he was right in the thick of it

saying boom to the bloke that paid for it. I mean, what would it take to break the spell for people in the cult

Or is it unbreakable? Or is it actually, am I being unfair

I'm not getting a lot of criticism today, I've got to be honest, for that suggestion

I don't think you do think I'm being unfair when I suggest it. It must just be the racism. And for a lot of the people in the inner circle, it's the money

It's all about the money. Look at the programme of self-enrichment. Do you know how much money Donald Trump's 18-year-old son has made

since Donald Trump became president for the second time? Yeah, I think it's $150 million that we know about

Jimmy Carter put the family peanut farm into a trust to ensure that nothing he did as a president

could in any way have enhanced the fortunes of peanut farmers. Trump's made billions

Boast about it. It's not even hidden anymore. You sort of think sometimes, don't you

what actually matters then? But you know that greedy, depraved, corrupt people

are going to behave greedily and with depravity and corruptly. What I never get

except sometimes I suppose when I think about the really terrible periods in history

and the role that ordinary people played in them, is why ordinary people

people who could never dream of dining in Rules restaurant in London's fashionable Covent Garden

People who've never heard of a black velvet, which apparently is a mix of Guinness and champagne

People who've never ordered oysters wouldn't know which way round to eat them if they did

And he's sitting there pretending to be your tribune, your representative on earth

the man of the people, the anti-establishment figure, hobnobbing in the fanciest restaurants in London

There's a place, what's it called? There's a cigar bar, what's it called? It'll come to me in a minute

He's practically got a permanent table there. He's practically sort of got his own table

in one of these fancy restaurants in central London. Where do people like, what's his chops

Graham think that he spends his time getting a kebab, too foreign

living off fish and chips. It's just extraordinary to me. But anyway, I should probably invite some other people

onto the programme if they haven't all fallen asleep. Dom's on the wirral. Dom, what would you like to say

First of all, happy Friday, James. Go on, I'll fill your boots

Just before we start, Nick Ferrari this morning, I thought he was absolutely outstanding

So did I. He nailed jelly to the wall. Absolutely. One of his best pieces for a long time. Yes, I completely agree

That's why we're re-enjoying it at length. Absolutely. I think we're talking about the people that are still going

I think we're still talking about the people that will still support reform no matter what

they're sinking slowly in the polls as people are having scale some people are having the scales pulled from their eyes

there's always going to be a hardcore 14 to 16% I'd say of people

some of them racists and quite a few of them are probably

I think we talked about this before people that have now got the sunken cost fallacy

that they've invested so much of their personal beliefs and persona into supporting reform

and anti-establishment etc that they can't ever admit they were wrong. Unfortunately, they're lost

And they're, I mean, in a way, they're the people populating my inbox

with sort of Farage-flavoured versions of Trump derangement syndrome. They have to shoot the messenger

They have no choice because the alternative is to realise they've shot both their own feet off

Also, when we, Nigel, packs up and buggers off because he gets a bit too much in the pan for him

these are the same people that will go and join Rupert Lowe's laid out. Well, the worst ones will

The worst ones will. I remain fascinated, perhaps naively so, by people for whom

the racism can go too far. Do you see what I mean? That's why I said

in good faith at the top of the show, if you can remember back that far, I

said in good faith it's a spectrum. Racism is a spectrum. You know, at one end you've got your Nazis

and at the other end you've got someone who's just a little bit uncomfortable if they're walking through

a car park at night and a couple of black lads come out of the lift. You know

it's an ethnic-based, it's a race-based response, but they are not the kind of people

that are going to be talking about deporting their next-door neighbours. So it is a spectrum, and I just don't know where people sit on it

Do you know what I mean? I don't know how you tell, really, except that the more time passes

and the more accepted and normalised it becomes, the more blatant people are about, you know

hating seeing black faces in Birmingham, if you're honest, Bob Jenrick, or not wanting brown faces on television adverts

if you say are approaching, both, of course, reform MPs. I think the problem is that reform and the MAGA movements

over in the States started from a base, and they thought, who can we corral now that will believe us

and who can we get to follow us no matter what? And they thought racism..

I believe racism is a tool that was used or is being used continually

to get a firm base on board to build a political movement from

which is an act which is a program of self-enrichment why on earth do they want to be

empowered just to get richer i think mussolini would talk probably most persuasively about the

relationship between fascism and business so that you've seen all the business people bend the knee

i don't know how racist they are but racism is a is a tool that they can use or donald trump's

racist uh rhetoric is a tool that they can use to get a tighter hold on power and the tighter the hold on power the more money they will make Exactly I don think these big billionaires are racists or most of them hope aren racists

but from Brexit onward, Brexit was about removing European regulations on business and rich people

Don't understand. It's in the news today. You've got an American politician saying today

they haven't used their freedoms, and you think, what are these freedoms? Well, they're still abiding by European regulations

when they could be buying American stuff that is measurably less safe and measurably less healthy

That's the freedom they sold to people like Graham, unfortunately, when they voted for Brexit

He thought he was getting an improvement to his life, whereas, in fact, it was a diminishment of his existence

that would involve profits for the people behind the punting of the project

And now the right wing are also going after the European Court of Human Rights, louder and louder, to remove more people's rights

After that goes, it'll be workers' rights. After that goes, it'll be any kind of right at all

be the dollar's king and we'll have shanty towns like in Los Angeles, unfortunately

And nothing breaks the spell. This is the thing I find most fascinating. Nothing breaks

the spell. And that can't be true because you can see the polling move and you can see

the personal approval ratings plummet and you can see that a plurality or rather, sorry

the two words that the British public most commonly associate with Nigel Farage are racist

and liar, but what that means is that the people who still

support him are cool with that. You know better than I do how few individuals

own around 70 or 80% of the UK media and similar things happening in the States

Everything's being consolidated. The message is being controlled. I sound like a mad conspiracy theorist. No, you don't

No, of course you don't. You don't. I mean, you might have done once, but I mean, how else do

you explain the fact that 80-odd percent of the British public are in support of renationalisation and public ownership of utilities, when you

would think that the figure was exactly the other way round if you were relying on right-wing media

And why do these columnists and commentators keep bigging up Farage? One of them, it's probably

Dick Littlejohn, I actually can't remember on this occasion, I think compared him to a Spitfire pilot

once. It's weird, right? I mean, it's up there with calling him daddy. But what are they getting

out of it what what is it what is it that is impressive about donald trump who of course

absolute disaster as u.s president or nigel farage up to his ears in allegations of everything from

schoolboy anti-semitism right through to um illegal financial dealings allegations and and

still you sit there oh yeah but he's better than keir starmer because he took some glasses the

pesky lawyer thank you don uh shri is also in uh merseyside in liverpool shri what would you like

to say hi james all right good morning uh i was thinking more about the average voter who's voting

for reform i i think what they have going for reform is they have the big din persona of being

an anti-establishment party so just just a half dozen oysters please shri just a half dozen oysters

and another bottle of champagne and i'll see you at mark's club for lunch at half past one okay

yeah exactly i mean they are they are the establishment who so badly don't want to be

spoken off as we established. Or maybe we'll go to Boysdale's. That's the restaurant where I've got

my own table and I sort of boast about being able to smoke on the terrace. I'll see you in Boysdale's

after we've had cocktails at the Ritz, okay? And we can discuss how anti-establishment we are

I think you and I can laugh about this, but I think fundamentally it boils down to this

If you feel that you have been culturally and economically left behind and somebody provides

a simple answer to a very complex question, you're going to take that simple answer

if anti-purnum comes up with a 35 page white paper explaining detailed policy framework

nobody cares if farad says three words that make no sense they do or even if they make a little bit

of sense like stop the boats or brexit means brexit or whatever then uh actually i'm not sure

the second one did make any sense then it is something to cling to are you being kinder than

me are you actually saying you you don't need to be a racist to be okay with the racism uh no i

I don't think I'm being kind of anew, but I think I am talking about what makes them stay or what makes them not go away and what makes these scandals not stick

I think, first of all, as the previous scholars pointed out, it's the sunk cost fallacy, right

The fear of looking foolish. If you have invested all this time, effort, resource, money into saying this is the best thing since sliced bread

why would you want to make yourself look bad by admitting that you were wrong

Nobody wants to feel that way. and the second one is obviously whether it's true or not

they have this whole anti-establishment thing going so anything that comes against them

just can be dismissed as a head job as us versus the establishment

I heard a couple of callers with Nick this morning trying that line

it's almost as if Starmer's spectacles never happened but the idea that this is all

infamy infamy they've all got it infamy these are all witch hunts

they are literally filmed filling their faces with oysters and laughing about the successful ruse that they have undertaken

that is probably, possibly, allegedly against the law. I can tell you now, breaking news

a quote from the Electoral Commission spokesperson, we are considering all relevant information

in line with our regulatory remit. They need to get their flipping skates on, actually

They're beginning to make Ofcom look effective. We are considering all relevant information

in line with our regulatory remit, and we are in touch with the Met Police

The Electoral Commission has not approved the donor vetting process for reform or any other party

Parties are responsible for ensuring their internal processes and controls are fit for purpose

And on it goes. So what could break the spell, Sri? I think there are only two things that could break the spell

First is a concrete delivery failure that is antithetical to their core brand of the party

If a party is mired in scandal or criticism, they can brush it aside

But if, say, reform has been promising lower immigration and lower costs..

But they need to be empowered for that. Yeah, but they are currently in power across various councils

And we'll see the repercussions of that over the next year or two. And if all of the things that they've been saying doesn't work

then they won't really work. I'm going to argue with that because you just say

well, it's not our fault. We can't do what we want in the council. It's all the fault of those clowns in Westminster who won't let us

Yeah, but this is the same party that is coming up with a 100-day plan

and saying we'll work all through the day until 2 a.m. in the morning to get things through

But the only other way it works is something like an alternative disruptor

something like your stores who promise even more extreme things, and that's the only way

Well, that's not breaking the spell, is it? That's doubling down on the spell. That's taking the racism and saying, you think that's racist

Wait until you see what I've got. This is amazing. I once phoned the police because there were some charity rowers

going past the coast, going past the beach in Great Yarmouth in a canoe

and I thought that they were all immigrants, so I phoned the authorities. I mean, that is not breaking the spell

I mean, it is breaking the spell of this populist party to another populist party

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But what about... I mean, what about bringing people back to decency

Is that possible? I mean, am I too naive? And I was just thinking, it's not just the ones whose names you know, mate

It's not just the famous ones who are bigoted and right. It's 25 to 30% of our population

I just don think I ever want to believe that I think you can break everything down to the fears everybody has about their economic future about what they think their future is going to look like

If you think your future is not right, and if you think things look murky

what are you going to look for? The easiest solution. What is the easiest solution? Somebody says, oh, I'll stop all immigration even though..

They've got all your biscuits, they're stealing all your money. But you'd think if it was a genuine concern, if it was a legitimate concern

and they'd do a tiny amount of research into whether or not it was true, whether or not there is an epic drain upon national resources

caused by either legal or illegal immigration or irregular immigration. You'd think if you really cared about it in an abstract sense

in a personal sense, you'd really want to have the facts in front of you

And then you notice that the number of people crossing the Channel in small boats is the lowest it's been for six years over the course of the last three months

and you're not reading that or hearing that anywhere. despite the fact that the media and certain politicians

couldn't talk about anything else for most of this year. You can't bring people back to decency

if they never had it in the first place, writes Elise. I guess that's why you probably have been a little bit surprised

to find me not laughing my head off and chucking it up on the show today

I find it really, and I hope I'm not making depressing radio, because nobody likes depressing radio

but I find it really sad. I find it really sad that people fall for charlatans

and fraudsters. I really do. No pleasure whatsoever when I read a story in the paper

about some poor woman who's gone to, I don't know, Faleraki and given all her money to a waiter

who pledged eternal love. No pleasure whatsoever when I read in the newspaper about some poor old fellow who's been done by a boiler room scam

and has given over his life savings to some shark in Hong Kong promising him the earth

I don't feel pleasure in their misfortune, even if they've pushed racist buttons

in order to get their hands on your vote, or your money, or your house. I don't feel any pleasure in that

I just feel sympathy and sadness. And that's why I have to carry on believing

that it is a breakable spell. But what the flip is going to break it? 0-3-4-5-6-0-6-0-9-7-3

It's 11-0-3. James O'Brien on LBC. Minutes after 11. Understandably, still a great appetite to talk about this

And I don't mean just me. But can I touch something else

I have mentioned it. I mention it quite a lot, actually. Can I move it along? I'm imagining your dad, all right, or your uncle Bob

And they were kind of 1980s, or even perhaps 1970s. They're not Alf Garnet, but they wouldn't have cut Alf Garnet out of their life on account of his bigotries, okay

So they think we're all a bit woke, and that, you know, we need a little bit of a lesson in reality

and we can't be nice to everybody and people, you know, they maybe even sometimes flirt with the idea

that of course we're different somehow genetically if we come from different cultures

But you know what I mean. They would never be first in line to join the SS

or anything like that. But they quite like the cut of Nigel Farage's jib

because he reminds them of a different era. When you were allowed, you didn't worry all the time

about saying something that somebody would be offended by. Obviously, the best way to avoid offending people

is to try quite hard not to be offensive, but that can be tiring and exhausting if you haven't been paying attention

to why certain words are now not acceptable or why you can't say certain things out loud

And that's kind of where they are. And the allegations of racism are not really ever..

Sorry, the examples and instances and long history of racism are never going to be enough to break the spell

I would call it, to be kind of perhaps a relationship. What is he going to think about the fine dining

the luxury living, the combination of claiming that I'm an ordinary man of the people

He's never filmed with a pint when the filming's been done secretly, is he? As far as I can tell

He's never drinking one of those pints that he's always photographed holding on his head when the cameras are actually covert

It's always fine wines and champagne. Champagne and oysters, Millie points out

I didn't see any pints in the footage, James. Will that get your dad

Because your dad might not have a problem with some of the sensibilities

but he doesn't like to be taken for a fool. and it's not the financial shenanigans necessarily

because he might be able to persuade himself they're all as bad as each other

Spoiler alert, they're not, but it's a position that is adoptable. So, you know, everybody said this stuff in the 80s, son

You don't need to worry about all. So he's all right with that. That's not going to grab him, right

And the money is, it's a little bit complicated. I don't understand who's allowed to commission polls

and who's allowed to make donations. And if someone offered me five million quid

I mean, that's quite a squint, isn't it? You've got to really squint quite hard

not to be bothered by what you can see there, but we're talking about your dad

And he can forgive the five million quid because I don't know, you know

because he likes all the other stuff enough to somehow think that going after Keir Starmer

for a pair of spectacles is absolutely fair. Going after Nigel Farage for secret £5 million donations

is a witch hunter. So you see what I mean? He can just about mould himself into a position

where the £5 million is forgivable or overlookable. But what about..

I don't know why this is what I responded to last night. What about the fact that he lives the life of Riley

Not Henry Riley, the original Riley. He lives so high on the hog that it is, frankly, extraordinary

Think about that. If you point out to your dad tonight, I've never seen him with a pint when the cameras are secretly filming, Dad

He only ever has a pint in his hand when they're taking photographs to show to people like you

what did he have? oysters and champagne in Clacton I suspect I don't want to malign or stereotype

Clactonians but I suspect that's not normal lunchtime fare for the majority of reform voters

in Clacton, champagne and oysters just half a dozen please that's, I mean listen, I'm a big fan of oysters

and they used to be a working class staple did you know that? you used to be able to buy them in pretty much any East End pub

I presume they, would they have come out of the Thames back in, no. If you went far enough

east up towards Kent, you'd have been, yeah, of course you would. Malden

Anyway, I digress. It's a treat, right? Usually two, three quid each for an oyster. It's a treat

Yeah, he ordered them as if it was every day. It was a packet of crisps

I'd just have half of them. Is that going to affect you? Does that matter? 03-45-60-60-973

is the number you need. Because I think it does. And that's what I mean about

feeling sorry for people when they've been conned. Feeling sorry for people

People who have been ripped off or the victims of a romance scam or, you know, during Brexit

we talked all the time about the transit van that pulled up in Notting Hill once when I

was walking home and a fella said, I've just been installing a music system at one of the

fancy houses around the corner and I've got a couple of top quality speakers left over. Do you want to buy them for cash

And I was quite tempted, but happily I was also quite skint. So I came back on the radio the next day and asked you what that was all about

And you said, well, you'd have bought the speakers and they'd have looked like speakers, but they would have been just speaker cases

and what was inside them would have been worth buttons if they had anything inside them at all

It's a well-established scam. Or you buy what they tell you is a laptop

and then there's a little bit of sleight of hand and the thing that you take home has got a brick in it

I feel sorry for those people. I feel sorry for those people. Do they recognise that they've bought a brick

when they see Farage yucking it up on oysters and champagne and dining in the finest restaurants in the country

while simultaneously claiming that he's the only one who understands their concerns

and has their best interests at heart. So it's your dad, it's your Uncle Bob, it's your Auntie Doris

Racism will part for a moment. It's not nice, it's not pretty, it's a little bit of white privilege to even be able to say that, right

Some of the financial shenanigans, little bit complex, little bit complicated, little bit oof

but the but the obviousness of the grift the obviousness of the con

when he's filling his face with fine foods and expensive wines and never

ever pictured with a pint unless it's a photo opportunity surely your dad thinks he's better than that

no? Your dad doesn't think he's the kind of person that would fall

for a romance scam, your dad doesn't think he's the kind of person that would send all his

money to somebody promising to release 20 billion pounds in sequestered funds in Dubai

Your dad's too smart for that. How did your dad fall for this

How did you fall for this? 0345 6060973. That's the thing that fascinates me. I don't know

maybe it's a bit wrong with me to park all the really ugly stuff and focus instead upon the most

the obvious element of the con, which is the anti-establishment man-of-the-people shtick

Straight out of the Boris Johnson playbook. Straight out of the billionaire Donald Trump's playbook

What is the establishment to these people? The people sitting in the same restaurants as them

ordering the same food, drinking the same wine. Banking at the same banks and then having a hissy fit

when they tell you that they don't want you to bank with them anymore. How can you be more establishment than Nigel Farage

A failed city broker who went to public school and spent the rest of his life in politics

trying to set fire to things while desperately dreaming of the day

when he'd be able to sit down and order champagne and oysters and talk about donations from foreign billionaires

in return for unspecified advantages. I don't know. It's a phone-in, I suppose, is it

I don't know. I don't even know. I just find it absolutely fascinating. Did that hit you

Does that break the spell? 03456060973. Is that a fair description? of your dad, or your uncle Bob, or your mum, or your auntie Doris

or you, or your sister, or your brother, or your son. Is that a fair description? That actually the money doesn't land

the racism is overlookable, although they wouldn't necessarily be racist themselves. Some of their best friends are black

But the actual, but the man of the people shtick, is that going to be the thing that breaks their spell

Lots of questions. any answers 0 3 4 5 6 0 6 0 9 7 3 james o'brien on lbc it's 11 18 fike is in stevenage fike what

would you like to say hi hi then um just wanted to say um i've had this sort of an experience with

someone who basically like i'm a i call myself a socialist i'm on the left um and i'm also from

pakistan from my background and just having a conversation on uh on construction site with

someone. And he ended up telling me that any time he brings up his political

sort of ideology, people just straight away call him a racist, because

he used to vote Tory. Really? Yes. I think that's a bit of a stretch

Rishi Sunak was the leader of the Tory party until relatively recently. Yeah, yeah, exactly

But I think it's just that, from my perspective, it's just the way people snub

the conversation, even in that, you know, my side of the ideology

where the minute you say I voted Tory or I agree with this particular policy of reform..

Which one, though? Because, I mean, this is where I find, and it was a good example of it on the programme yesterday

and they tried to argue that it's not the racism that they love, they generally struggle

So what would be the policy of reform that your colleague on the construction site was attracted to

No, I'm not particularly talking about a specific policy. I'm just saying from, because people don't even understand their own ideology

Okay. Basically. So if you are like a socially conservative, then yes, I can see that you probably have an issue with someone like me in this country

Because you want to, you know, leave like a, you want to conserve your social fabric

but if you are like economically conservative I can still have a conversation with you

I don't think that anybody needs to throw out like the tag of racism

No Edwin, I don't think anybody is if you're voting for a racist which is the case if you're voting for most reformed politicians

then it's not about economic conservatism is it? you're either comfortable with

approving of or not sufficiently troubled by the people who never shut up about how many

how there's too many people with faces like yours on the streets of Birmingham and television screens

100% agree. I'm just saying that I think we are using it and demonising a lot bigger segment of population

No, but we're not. We're talking about reform. That's why I was a bit confused when he came on

and started talking about Tories. I think it's, I mean, I feel sorry for your mate

if he gets called a racist every time he reveals he votes Tory because there's loads of people in the Tory party historically

who are as repulsed by racism as you are or I am. But if you're voting reform

that's a different kettle of fish entirely. That's a different tray of oysters altogether

That is voting for someone who was hideously anti-Semitic at school, according to a growing number of his contemporaries

who uses the N-word very, very casually, according to the founder of actual UKIP

who is virulently racist in private, according to all manner of people

John Sweeney's got a new book coming out about this in about a week's time

Michael Crick's already written one. So if you're voting for that lot, then

either you're cool with it, or you're not sufficiently uncool with it to give your

head a wobble and vote for someone else. But James, don't you think there are people

like I said, I think there's also an issue where people don't understand it

like what they really believe in terms of ideology. So a lot of these MPs, you know

just defecting to reform from Tories, the point I trying to make is I think there is The number that we see that there a lot of reform support or whatever we see in the polls Like we know these polls are not probably real

No, they are. The polls are generally pretty reliable unless, of course, they've been secretly commissioned by a political party and designed to deliver a conclusion that is advantageous to the political party

I mean, I've probably been a bit slow, but I'm not fully understanding the point that you're making

I'm just saying, like, I mean, every time anybody, because, like I said, people don't understand their own ideology

so even when they're social... But then it's not an ideology, mate, if they don't understand it, is it

You can't have an ideology that you don't understand. Yeah. No, but I'm saying if they believe in, like, you know, low taxation

and they believe in economic conservatism, because... But we're not talking about them

We're talking about people who are comfortable with politicians who say that there's too many brown faces on the telly

and too many black people in Birmingham. That's who we're talking about, literally. They're voters

Forgive me if I've misunderstood you, but I don't think I have. Bob's in Rotherfield

No, he's not. Well, he is, but we'll talk to Matt in Birmingham first. Matt, what's going on? James, this is an honour

I've finally got through to you. Well, you're very welcome. Let's hope I don't spoil it

Oh, you probably will, to be honest. No, when you talk about the reform voters

now, not all of them are extreme racists. Not all of them are diluted racists

what you've got is for years and years and we've had parties the labour

conservative lib dems they have failed they can't do the job the country's failing it is failing they are gaslighting us

um to to the rooftop james saying about the military that they're pumping

more and more money into it but then they they're cancelling funds for training

my daughter's school the council this year stopped 19 grand's worth of funding

for sports clubs. They're on about kids getting fat and obese. But the government

is not doing nothing about it. The government is... I mean you're talking about

the consequences... I just want to point something out. You're talking about

the consequences of austerity and Brexit which are both right wing creations that Nigel Farage

approved of completely. He called Liz Truss's budget the best of his lifetime

He was fully behind. He was the absolute king of Brexit in this country

and he's never seen a cut to public spending he didn't like

So how on earth does he become the answer to the problems that you described

He's not the answer. So I don't believe he is. He's saying what everyone wants to hear

But he's also responsible for most of the problems you're describing or at least supportive

of the policies that brought them in. I know, but when you've got Labour, take Labour for instance

and when they are cutting left, right and centre and they're not putting in to the infrastructure properly

so take the triple lock, why don't they just stop it? But you're not talking about reform anymore

Reform aren't promising to get rid of it. So I'm trying to work out how you can be supportive of this party

if you're not either approving of or comfortable with all the racism

and you're not really telling me. Because me as a taxpayer, James, I don't feel like I'm getting anything from my money

Do you pay a lot of tax? Not an abate benefit. Do you pay a lot of tax

I do, yeah. So the country's not failing then, is it? Because you're still making a mint

I am, but that's because of the industry I've decided to go into

Is that industry in this country? Yeah, okay. The country's not completely failing

It's not going to crumble. So I'm doing so well. I hate paying taxes because

some people aren't doing... No, no, no, I haven't said I hate paying taxes, James. What is it then

Because the only way you're going to spend more money on your daughter's school, the only way you're going to spend more money on the army, the only

way you're going to spend more money on all the things you want more money to be spent on, is if you

and me pay more taxes. So, reform the benefits system. You did just say

you weren't going to talk about that. Okay, okay. I won't talk about it

No, you can. I'm just pointing I'm just pointing out that you're on fairly thin ice

Okay. Ask me something else. Where's the money going to come from to pay for

all the things that you think should be paid for if it's not going to come from taxpayers? If it's not going to come from taxpayers

Well, it's going to have to come from reforming the corporation tax

and all that, you know, increased corporation tax, all that sort of stuff. That's the opposite of reforms policy

Reform are going to lower it. oh well do you know what yeah i don't know but you're here to tell me you're here to tell me that

you kind of could see yourself voting for them do you know what i was here to tell you james

the reason people vote mr harry is it going to beat wilson tomorrow no the reason people are

voting um reform and the reason that they won't um divert themselves away from voting it's because

the traditional parties have failed james you've got to get that straight because they're the

constantly fighting. I mean, the austerity and Brexit have crippled your country

Keir Starmer didn't do a quick enough job of turning things around. But you can't say..

I mean, you can explain it, and I think you're right. I think that's a very widespread perception

among people who are going to vote for the biggest arsonist of them all. The country's on fire

Let's vote for an arsonist. What did you feel when you saw the footage

or when you heard today's reports of the filming last night? Just all this constant cosying up

to foreign billionaires. What's that all about? That's not about putting money in the pocket of your daughter's school

My eyes are kind of like what I just explained to you about the traditional parties being a failure

and they're not making the country any better than what it has been

Is come on, let's try something new. That's why Andy Burnham's in Downing Street

That's why Andy Burnham's in Downing Street. And yeah, you're right. That is exactly. Brexit was supposed to be, oh, I've had enough of the way things are

Let's do something different. We've got nothing to lose. Turns out we had quite a lot to lose, Matt, and we lost it

Do we need someone like Rupert Lowe in charge? Well, and he'll deport your neighbours

No, no, no. I don't believe that reform will actually go ahead with half of what they say

I do believe... Well, then they're entirely untrustworthy. I know this has been..

Well, are you here to tell me, mate? I mean, I'm glad you got through and I'm enjoying our exchange

but what exactly are you here to tell me? Is there something that you're a bit shy of revealing? because what we've done effectively is say

that you're not impressed by the two parties, albeit that the major problems the country faces

have been created by austerity and Brexit, but somehow reform are going to be the answer to these problems

because they're not going to actually do all the things that they said they were going to do. So, well, you've just minced me words completely there

But... I think you'll find out precedes them. Go on. If you were actually listening

if you actually take the cotton wool out your ear and actually listen, I actually said what I was meant to say

that the reformed voters, they've seen failure year after year after year

and that they can't see any hope with Labour, Conservatives, Lib Dems

So they are turning to the other side. Just like Brexit? Yes, just like Brexit

And how did that go? It's going to be a failure. You don't know where it's going to be a failure. Probably 95% chance it will fail

but people are turning because it's just... And then you ask them

what they think they're going to get? What do they say? or I ask you what do you think you going to get if you vote reform If I vote reform Hopefully what Zahusif has been spacing online Hopefully what Nigel Fried has been spacing out online

You want that? Not all of it. Which bit do you want

I want the NHS to be reformed. I want the benefit system to be reformed

I'm sorry to bring that back in. You can bring it back in. I just pointed out you said you weren't going to

I know you're a hard-working taxpayer in a failing country doing very well, like me, but what exactly do you think that reform would involve

I want a country that works. We all want that, mate. What do you think that would look..

How are you going to do that by enriching the people that are giving Nigel Farage millions of pounds

On what possible planet do you think the people who are filling their pockets

in this fashion care about you or your daughter? They don't. They don't

What are you here for? I've listened to every bloody syllable man

I've repeated it back to you and you've got the hump with me listen I'm going to let

it's been a pleasure do you want to introduce the news just say here's Dominic Ellis

with the headlines here's Dominic Ellis with the headlines it's a funny one that isn't it

it's growing in popularity perhaps even as the party falls in popularity

but this idea that, oh, no, don't talk about the racism, don't talk about the alleged corruption

don't talk about all the investigations, don't talk about the billionaires who are funding the entire thing

I've just had enough of the other two. Yeah, but if your rationale is I've had enough of the other two

you're still talking about giving the racists a go. You don't get to excuse yourself from that simple thing

even if the other fellow's even more racist. You're still saying, yeah, the ones that paint over the murals of Disney characters

because they think that unaccompanied child refugees are having it too easy in this country

The ones that talk about how unnerved they are by the colour of the faces on their television being too brown

The ones that don't like walking down a street in Birmingham without seeing so many black and brown faces

You're giving them a go. Never mind, of course, that most of them were in the last government anyway

which was responsible for austerity and Brexit. But I just, I don't think it's quite the get-out-of-jail-free card

that some people think it is. Oh, the other two have been awful. I mean, they haven't, technically

up until the 2008 financial crisis, economically, Gordon Brown was doing a great job in this country

And since 2010, Labour have barely had a chance. Charging Keir Starmer with undoing all of the damage

done by, most obviously, austerity and Brexit, and the consequences of the international financial crisis

and the mismanagement of Covid by Boris Johnson was a massive ask. I categorically believe he could have done a much better job

and hope that Andy Burnham does. But the idea that you lump Labour in with the Tories for the state of the country in 2026

He's just daft. It feels like reaching, doesn't it, for an explanation that allows you

to somehow justify your votes for a racist. A racist enterprise. And, OK, I mean, that's fine

Vote for a racist enterprise. But you have to understand my job is to not let you pretend that that's not what you're doing

So you might well justify it yourself by saying it's cuss of the other two

you're still arguing for giving the racists a go giving the 5 million pound trousering oyster munching racists a go

that's the idea that they've got your interests at heart it was interesting with the last lad

as soon as you say do you really think this man cares about your daughter

nah do you think Andy Burnham does? I, you know hose me down and call me a Muppet

but I actually do I think some people went into politics And this would include some traditional conservatives

because they believed they could make the country a better place for almost everybody

And some people went into politics because they believed they could make this country a better place for them and their donors and their dining companions

And I don't think Andy Burnham is one of those politicians. I'm not even sure Cami Badenoch is, and I don't think that Keir Starmer was either

But if your dissatisfaction with the status quo is your reason for casting your vote in that direction

You don't get to pretend that you're not deciding to give the racists a go

because the rest haven't met your expectations. It's 11.37. Phil's in Glasgow

Phil, what would you like to say? Hi, James. I just wanted to thank you for asking the question

about how would your dad see this? Because that's the lens in which I view

the whole rise of reform and the Brexit movement and everything. because it's one area where me and my dad just completely disagree

And I wouldn't call myself a massive lefty or, you know, that politically engaged

However, I know that my father looks at his son and doesn't really understand

and thinks that he's this kind of woke guy that is young and, oh, you'll have a lot to learn

And I think your question about, you know, what would your dad think about the channel for things last night

he'd be impressed. He'd say, good on him. You know, crack on. You know, that's what you've got to do

Oh, it just makes me emotional. I can tell it does, and I'm sorry for this

Because, I mean, I get quite a lot of this off-air as well as on-air

family fracture caused by an older relative usually supporting a political movement

that younger relatives find repellent. That, back to the film last night

and the five million quid, secretly accepting five million quid from a bloke set to be enormously enriched

by policies that Farage would bring in. How would your old man support or enjoy that

Would it just be, well, I'd do the same if I got the chance, kind of territory? I think so. I think exactly

I think there'd be a wry smile. And, well, you know, and I think your point to

well, they're all at it, aren't they? Yeah. And they're not, of course. Yeah

And I think he would enjoy sitting in Claridge's with him, having a champagne

He would love that. So your dad's not lapping up the man of the people shtick then

he's seeing something else. I think he would say we're all at it, we're all grifters

and he's a bloody good one, to which I would agree with him on that

He is a very good one. And that's the stage at which our political conversations get to

And then I start getting too emotional, and then I'm not equipped with the right facts to say

but what about the racism and what about the other stuff? because he just starts parroting these other lines

and these other things, and we can't have a proper conversation. It's like Twitter made flesh, what you're describing

Exactly. And you desperately want to be proud of your parents and follow their example

And I do in lots of ways, but that's becoming less and less as reform gets stronger and stronger

And I just, I feel that disconnect. He's still your dad. I'm not your therapist

but my dad's not with us anymore, and he never went down the path that your father has gone down

There were moments when I thought he might be flirting with it but nothing like what you're describing and and my dad's not here

anymore and to be honest i mean short of actually signing up to join the ss there's nothing that

would make me miss him um uh less than i do now so don't never forget never forget that he won't

be here forever just allow me to say that for a moment yeah well thank you yeah maybe i need a

therapist we all need a bit of therapy sometimes what about the racism though i mean do you think he might lean a bit that way because the only thing I can see Farage offering apart from this clubability that you describe and the only thing the reason why the two words most associated with him

by the British public are racist and liar. So on some level, your dad must either enjoy that or be comfortable with it

or not be sufficient. And that's a really tricky thing for me to ask you

Yeah, and I don't want to go there. in my conversation with him

No, not with you. I genuinely don't know. And I really hope it's not the case

And I know that he wouldn't treat anyone in person differently. But I also know that he sits on his laptop

and reads the telegraph comments. Or, you know, well, I actually don't know what he does

Well, the country's going to hell in a handcart because of all these people that your dad's never met or seen anywhere

except on the pages of the websites and newspapers telling him that the country's going to hell in a handcart

I imagine. I don't want to open that Pandora's box for him. And we have a very nice surface level father-son relationship

Well, cherish it. Cherish it. I mean, my other bit of patronising advice

would be to ask questions rather than to make points. Yeah. I often find that, I mean, it's obviously what I do for a living

so it's easy for me to say, but I do quite find the asking people to explain

I just, you heard with the last caller, Do you really think he's got your daughter's interests at heart

Or what exactly would he be doing with corporations? And your dad might approve of some of the things that are designed to further enrich the already wealthy

Because, I mean, it sounds like he's not in the category of voters that might find the clarages and the champagne a little bit hypocritical

He's not sort of a bobbledger. That's what I was going to say, but I didn't want to be too presumptuous

So that asking the questions is often a better way to get to the heart of this stuff

rather than offering up alternative positions. But I can see that, yeah, so just cherish elements of the relationship, is what I would say

But yeah, thank you for speaking so directly about your dad, literally

And so how is he going to respond to the high living, the fine dining, the oyster guzzling, the money trousering

Well, he is going to look at it as, you know, someone who's very good at what he does

and who here wouldn't take five million pounds from a secret billionaire in return for unspecified, unspecifics

The answer is not politicians. They're the ones that can't, you know

Someone offers me five million quid secretly to come on air and start claiming that, I don't know, the moon is made of cheese

Who would that hurt, Keith? Who would that hurt? The moon is made of cheese. That'll be five million pounds, please

I can't imagine circumstances in which I'd do it secretly, but I'm not flipping sanctimonious enough to insist that there aren't any

But if I was a politician, if I was a politician, or if I was about to become a politician again after years of being a politician

then of course I wouldn't take five million quid from a foreign-based billionaire, or indeed a domestically-based billionaire

or any billionaire at all, because any right-thinking voter is going to think, what's he getting in return

It's unlikely to benefit me and my Birmingham schoolgirl daughter. But I suppose if you live in a world where money talks

then you don't ask too many questions about where it's come from. I don't know. It's literally not a world I know

Phil, thank you. Steve's in Peter. Steve, what would you like to say? Hi, James

Gosh. Well, take your time. I hope we haven't taken you by surprise, Steve. We didn't ring you

In 2015, I vividly remember, and we rehearse, a number of friends and I rehearse this

sitting in a cafe and finding it very funny how the world could go to hell in a handbasket

It could be that Brexit happened, my God, and we laughed. And it could be that Johnson happened

It could be that Trump happened. All those three things. And we thought it was very funny

And they all happened. And as a result of that, I mean, apart from being shocked, I wouldn't rehearse necessarily all of those things

But ultimately, I've actually become quite fearful. And you're a master at this, and I'm going to be telling you just how to suck eggs or something

But, you know, I think the farages of this world are very good at engaging people by focusing in on cognitive dissonance

And they lead that gradual drip feeding of stuff that they can get enough, just enough

What a terrible thing, you know, these people on benefits. What a terrible thing, these people coming over on boats

What a terrible thing. And look at the number, even to the degree, and I've carried out my own, you know, I've known people locally

who have a big company, taxi driver community, lots of Indian, Pakistanis, younger generation

who are as vehement as Farage and would be supporters of much of what reforms stand for

But what do they stand for, though, in their eyes, not in yours? In their eyes, what do they stand for

apart from, you know, down with the foreigners? Yeah, down with the foreigners

And even when you challenge... I've had conversations along the lines of

are your parents still alive? Yes. When did they come over? In the 60s

Have you had the conversation with them? Have you talked to them about what it was like when they first arrived

Have you talked about Enoch Powell? No. But everyone is susceptible. This explains the rise of some of the more controversial politicians

on the further right of British politics. it's like drawbridge pulling up

Everybody thinks. Everyone is susceptible to the idea that that bloke over there

is nicking your biscuits, even if you only got here yesterday. You're less susceptible to

it, but you're still susceptible to it. You've got this use of character

complaining about somebody who wasn't born here going into politics, overlooking the fact that Boris

Johnson wasn't born here, Nadim Zahawi wasn't born here, and his own parents weren't born here

And that's why, on one level, you could almost be forgiven for thinking

what a ridiculous state of affairs. What a funny, it's almost black humour

I see what you mean. Yes, it's almost satirical, but it's not, it's real

It's real, and that's the thing that makes me fearful. It's that this has sort of taken hold

and to that cognitive dissonance thing, you've seen it on callers just recently

You keep pulling these things out. But effectively, by challenging those views

by bringing fact to the equation. Or asking for experiences, you know, asking..

Because the line that haunts me from that period, or a couple of years later actually, Steve

was the one, I don't mean you. That really resonated. with me when people started telling me

because we're talking about family members today, and people would say to their mother-in-law who'd just voted Brexit in order to get rid of all the foreigners

and their Polish daughter-in-law would say, but that's me, and she'd say, no, I don't mean you

And filling Glasgow's dad, oh, I don't mean them. I mean the ones I'm reading about

I mean the ones that Nigel's telling me about. I mean, you know, the images he conjures up

when a brown man kills a white man, and the white man's family say, please don't make political capital out of this

and Nigel says, sorry, I'm far too busy making political capital out of it to pay any attention

at all to the grieving parents, aren't all brown people awful. Right, and to your experience, it seems to me

on a daily basis, when you challenge this stuff, what you find is that there's confusion

that's gone so far down the belief path, whatever it is, that the only way out is to genuinely challenge that belief

And as soon as you go there, it means you've got to unravel all of this stuff

that you've begun to hold dear. Yeah, and that's what we're talking about today, really

The breaking of the spell. And it is very, very hard to do. And it's why not as many as perhaps used to

get so cross with me, you know, for pointing this stuff. I mean, it must be bloody awful, mustn't it

If you subscribe to the idea. It'll leave austerity out of it at the moment. But if you thought, if you used to laugh

ah, yeah, I love Donald Trump. He upsets all the right people. I love Boris Johnson

He upsets all the right people. Oh, I love Nigel Farage. He upsets all the right people

I love Benjamin Netanyahu. He upsets all the right people. I mean, it must be, I mean, awful

You keep winning politics, but you keep losing life. So bizarre. But of course, the people you back, they're doing fine

Trump's making more money than ever. Farage is shoving it in every pocket he's got

Netanyahu's not in jail. Boris Johnson is, okay, probably the least successful of the four

but he's still getting paid a fortune by the Daily Mail to write gibberish every weekend

so they're doing great. Supporters, they've lost every single battle and they thought that they won them all

It's so bizarre. So yeah, of course, you're not going to thank the person for pointing it out

any more than the emperor would have pointed or thanked the little boy who pointed out

that he was stark rollick naked. It's 10 to 12. James O'Brien on LBC

11.53 is the time. I presume the timing is fortuitous. I don't know for sure

but there's an extraordinary piece in the Financial Times magazine this weekend about this James Orr character

the one that was filmed arranging or I don't know quite what word to use

Channel 4's lawyers. Actually, a quick media lesson for you if you're remotely interested. Channel 4's lawyers would have been all over this for weeks

So they went to air yesterday with full confidence in everything that they've done

Organisations like LBC and the BBC haven't had time for their own lawyers

to go over the same stuff with the same fine toothcombs. So that is the only reason sometimes why things don't get the prominence that you think they might deserve on other media outlets

I'm not seeing much of that today, and the criticism I have seen has largely been of the BBC

But that is the reason, is that no lawyer in a media company is going to say

oh, we don't need to worry, their own lawyers have looked into it. They're going to need to reach their own conclusions about the legality or otherwise of what is being said

most obviously in the context of libel law with this story. So that's why sometimes you'll hear me edit as I go or stumble over my words

But a secret plot by senior Reform UK figures to break the law on party donations

is the headline that Channel 4 News have chosen to go with

And they add that a leading legal expert is now calling for a criminal investigation

and indeed the Electoral Commission have said today we are considering all relevant information

in line with our regulatory remit and we are in touch with the Metropolitan Police

And James Orr, the character at the heart of this plot, he is one of these self-styled Christian theologians

who has somehow managed to square this conduct with his own very loudly trumpeted morality

And there's a brilliant piece about him and the so-called new British right in the Financial Times magazine this weekend

that I really recommend you read. Close to J.D. Vance, inevitably. Close to the leader of the far-right AFD party

or at least photographed with. And the Peter Thiel character, who is so interesting

And the director of the Roger Scruton Legacy Foundation. So, links to Victor Orban probably as well

So, it's just a really interesting piece. and you find yourself wondering

what is it that all these people have in common? Because it ain't really Christian values, necessarily

What is it? And we're back to the question of whether or not there's any reason to ride with Nigel Farage

than either racism or self-enrichment. And if it's not self-enrichment you're getting

then it's racism. Sandra's in Wigan. Sandra, what would you like to say? Hi, James

I wanted to talk to you about my mum. Similar to the previous caller, really

Nigel Farage is the messiah in her house. Good Lord. I know, it is that bad

My dad to an extent, but really my mum. And what I think really frightening about it is

I don't remember my mum ever saying anything racist before. But I don't remember this being a part of her

you know, her language, her everyday vocabulary. But now the things she comes out with are so shocking

and you know we were round having tea a few weeks ago and i've got a little girl and i've

taught my little girl about racism because where we are in wigan it's very very overt now it's it's

awful really awful really um it's it's i've just i can't even get my head around it the comment

you see on facebook groups on local things it's just everywhere i just i can't believe that so i

teach my little girl about this and about how you know there's good and there's bad and we can

use our power for good. So if we see people, we need to make them feel welcome and safe

So we're not part of them. We're showing people that they do belong. So she's kind of embodied

this and she was telling my mum over dinner about how we'd seen a family in the park

a dad and two sons, and my little girl started teaching them how to use conkers through the

language barrier. And it had just been such a joyous, lovely moment. And the little boys

were so pleased and the dad was so grateful and she was so happy

telling my mum and my mum said well you shouldn't have done that and I said what why she went well the dad

was probably a rapist I said what what she said well I've had Nigel Farage

on the news and he's told me that you know that they're all

rapists you know it's you know overpopulated rapists and you know you shouldn't be talking and I thought wow

She believes it then. So, I mean, because the fear is... I'm not saying I'd necessarily feel sorry for you, I think, because this is tough

And in a way I feel sorry for her because she been boxed into a position that is both hideous and ridiculous It is yeah And once you with it you have to go with it don you I think you do yeah I suppose you do So I mean that the question this hour isn it

Is whether or not anything can break the spell. But, I mean, she must have had colleagues

or people who live nearby when you were growing up who were brown, and she never thought

they were all sex offenders. Our favourite corner shop. They love them there

Oh, well, that comes back to your point, not them. No, I don't mean them. I just mean the one in the park whose sons were playing with your granddaughter

It's really shocking. You know, my dad said he's drank the Kool-Aid but not quite as much

And he said, well, you know, Sandra, there's 3,000 mosques now in Bolton

And I said, what? I said, 3,000 mosques in Bolton? And he said, yes, because they all get a council tax exemption

I said, right, well, let's just double check that, Dad. I said, because we have Google now, so we can verify

Yeah. And I said, actually, I Googled it, there's 28 in Bolton

and no, they don't get a council tax exemption. And what did he do? You can do my holiday cover, Sandra, if you carry on like this

You know what he said? He said, yeah, but who writes that on Google

I don't know if that's true. I said, well, who told you there was 3,000

Well, I heard it at the local social club. I said, oh, well

And that's not Farage's fault, but they are Farage's people, aren't they

I think it is Farage's fault, actually, because I never heard any of this before

This has gotten so much worse since the rise of Farage and all that rhetoric that they're engulfing everybody with

Where you live, you might not hear it as much, but here in Wigan, it is everywhere

Oh, I see the internet. I never heard it before. No, that's interesting

No, I mean, it's an emboldened month, isn't it? And you see, the reason why we didn't hear it before

was because some of these interventions would be career-ending. If Sarah Pochin came out and said

there's too many people with brown and black faces in television adverts, she would have been chucked out of any political party previously

If Nick Timothy had said, you can't be praying in public if you're a Muslim, it's a threat of, I don't know, a threat of aggression or something like that

he'd have been fired and instead he's been promoted. Yeah, but I think the difference now is

people would have frowned upon that before. Whereas now, they believe it too

And I do think that is a direct result of him. I really don't think my mum was racist to that extent before

Like I said, I never heard anything, but now she definitely is. The comments she comes out with, holding a Bible, I might add

the comments she comes out with, couldn't write it, could you? The comments she comes out with are just so shocking and outlandish

but she never did it before It's the internet as well, isn't it

Is she on the internet? Is she on Facebook? She's a big watcher of GB News

which I think have a lot to answer for a lot to answer for

because the rhetoric they have and sometimes I'll put it on just out of morbid curiosity

and their version and their take of things is so skewed to that version

that rhetoric and they're drinking it all the time Your mum comes away thinking that

every brown man in the park with his own children is a sex offender

This is a very memorable call for me, Sandra, and I'm really grateful

But I am genuinely sorry that you're in such a powerful position to make it. Do you think there's any chance of getting your mum back

No, I think the only thing now will be she'll go to restore

I think she's gone that far down the garden path. So it doesn't matter that he'll point out it'll be the ones that are all right that get deported too

None of it. And does Ebber try all your techniques, James. I pose the question

You know, who's benefiting from this? What will this mean for the NHS

You know, what's the policies on this? And it doesn't matter how you phrase it because she's so far down now into that

There's no coming out of it. She even said to me last week that it was Ukraine's fault that Russia invaded

because they were pointing weapons at Russia, and if they hadn't have done that, Putin wouldn't have invaded

Well, that's pure fair. You know, that is how far into it she is. It's all there. They merge and meld into, you know

all the positions end up being held at the same time. Just final question, and what is she like on vaccines

Oh, can you guess? Well, I can, yes, but I didn't want to say it without checking with you

No, no, you're right. you're absolutely right. Sandra, thank you. I mean, it's magnificent that you've got

you've still got your sense of humour about it all, because the important thing to do, I suppose, is to keep frowning

I get encouraged, for example, by the polling this week that shows the two words most associated

with Nigel Farage by the British public are racist and liar. But of course, if you're watching the television

that Sandra's mum's watching, or if you're reading the Facebook pages that she's reading

or you're looking at the papers that she's looking at, or reading your Dick Little John columns

then you'd be forgiven for thinking that the truth was the polar opposite. He's not a racist liar

He's a spitfire pilot. He's a battle of Britain made flesh. He's a racist liar

Or at least those are the words most associated with him by the British public

It's three minutes after 12. We'll probably talk about something else next, but not definitely

James O'Brien on LBC. Seven minutes after 12 is the time, and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

I'm going to have a proper look with something of an expert

in the course of this hour at these allegations and what they would mean if they turned out to be upheld

turned out to be valid. I'm not quite sure what to do next

I've got to be honest with you. Do you want to carry on talking about this, find a new angle? You haven't bitten on the bait that I am finding most wriggly

and tempting, which is the grift element, the man of the people shtick

But I thought that... Was it Philip in Glasgow talking about the dad who quite..

Should we talk more about mums and dads? Because Sandra really, I think, smashed it there, didn't she

That was brilliant. What's it like to deal with what Sandra described? So your parent has been radicalised by Nigel Farage

and by online toxicity. Maybe we could come up with some things we could do to help

Some things that might actually tempt people back from the brink. I always remember, and this goes back to an innocent age

when we were more worried about Brexit than about actual fascism being on the march in this country

I always remember that caller, do you remember, whose wife told him to put away his laptop

because he was getting angry. Does it, does it, this is something I didn't ask Sandra

and I could have done. does it impact on other behaviours? So if you're saying that to your little granddaughter

then something has changed that goes beyond political indoctrination or radicalisation. That short-temperedness must kick in, and fear

I mean, fear and anger we're talking about, aren't we? If your little granddaughter tells you

she's been playing conkers in the park with a couple of brown-skinned lads whose dad was keeping an eye on them

just like her mum was keeping an eye on her and her response is to say you shouldn have done that he probably a rapist Something quite precious inside that poor woman has broken And that is not confined to her

Those words, that attitude now reaches. Her granddaughter, her young granddaughter, is hearing stuff that you wouldn't normally have heard ever

or anywhere in British society, let alone from your own grandma, when you've just come back from playing conkers in the park

So what is that like? when one of your loved ones... The reason I asked her about vaccines

at the end of that conversation, if you need me to explain, is because that, I think, was the first time we did this phone-in

What's it like if one of your loved ones has gone down that particularly dangerous rabbit hole

and has ended up believing that vaccine to some sort of international conspiracy

or that they're injecting, I don't know, little robots into your bloodstream

so that they can turn you all into a, I don't know, secret army of Wookiees or something

and it was heartbreaking, wasn't it? It was incredibly powerful to speak to people

who were dealing with it on a daily basis. I deal with it for a living. I don't have any real experience of this

outside of this studio. I've got no idea what it would be like to go and visit my mum in hospital at the moment

and hear her saying things like Sandra's mum is saying to her. I don't know what that would be like

but Sandra explained it so brilliantly that I think we should probably throw open the phone lines to people who are in similar positions

so how do you deal with a loved one who has become racist as a consequence of the political

direction that this country has gone in over the course of the last 10 years 0345 6060973 tell me

about your mum or your dad or your uncle keith what what what can you do what can sandra do

to turn the oil tanker around because i can't help her she's already tried my tactics she said so

What can you do? What do you do? What do you do? If your mum or your dad is coming out with the kind of stuff that is now

as she said herself, normalised, no longer frowned on. What can you do

So, question one, what's it like? Would a sibling be harder than a parent

You have a different quality of love for your parents. There's no love quite like it, I don't think

but a sibling doesn't have the sort of generational excuse. You can't think to yourself it's an age-related thing

The older you are, the more susceptible you are to fear. Is that a fair comment to make? I don't know

The more online you are, the more susceptible you are to fear

But what is it actually like to hear this vitriol and this vileness

come out of your own parents' mouth? 0345 60 60 973 and we can have a little look at what you think is most responsible

is it Nigel Farage or is it Elon Musk is it the internet, the online wild west where you can say

pretty much anything you want without any fear of recourse and of course you can say an awful lot of it

anonymously as well but because I'm built the way I'm built I'd also like to look at possible responses

if my tactics don't work maybe yours will anyway the fellow I was telling you about a minute ago

which is going back probably 10 years. It was one of my first calls that went viral

I only mention that because it demonstrates a level of interest in what was going on that extends far beyond the walls of this studio

And his wife had noticed that he was becoming unpleasant company. He was becoming angry, and he was becoming short-tempered

And she could see, because it was happening in front of her, that it was directly linked to the laptop computer

So he would put down his laptop and he would, as Sandra was telling us, in Wigan, you know, the stuff being put and posted online is absolutely disgusting

And he put down his laptop and he would then become a vessel of that disgustingness

He would be saying things that were vile because he was repeating what he'd just read

There's 30,000 mosques in Bolton. They all get a special dispensation. dispensation. I remember another call from back in the day, a fella telling me that his daughter's

school had a prayer room for Muslims, and it just didn't. And I checked, you know, I looked up the

school on the old internet, and it didn't have a prayer room for Muslims. I think I told him

I've got the headmistress on the other line. She's coming on to say that you're talking absolute

jibber-jabber, and he hung up, I think. I may have misremembered that. It might be in my first book

Have a check, have a read. But that idea that when you believe something that's not true

you're angrier with the person who proves it's not true than you are with the person who told you the lie

You know, your dad's saying, well, I don't know if I can trust Google, because I read on British Bulldog 123

that there are 30,000 mosques in Bolton and they all get given my..

I mean, it's incredible. And the other point, of course, is that if these grievances peddled by Farage and his mates were true

then their followers wouldn't need to lie. That's the point, isn't it

If the grievances were true, if you were more at risk on one street than you were on another

as a direct consequence of immigration, if most domestic abuse, most violence against women

wasn't committed by men that they know, then you wouldn't need to make stuff up

The fact that they have to make stuff up... Another early call I took on this show from someone who told me

that if you're an immigrant in South London, you've got a free shop. God, this is like an archive

Three calls. So he put his laptop away and I said, what happened, James? And he said, I was fine

I got back to normal in like a day or two. If you can cut that umbilical, that connection to the world of online hate

and in that case, ten years ago, you could find your way back into the light

But it's much darker now. The internet, compared to what it was 10 years ago, is unbelievably hideous

Unbelievably hideous. Lies and racism, vitriol, vicious everywhere you go. And I don't know if it's easy or even possible today to wean yourself off that

Amazing, isn't it, how much time we talk about weaning our children off social media addiction

It's absolutely amazing that we spend so little time about weaning our parents off it

or our grandparents. Oh, it's terrible, James. They're addicted to TikTok. All they do is scroll through

and watch table tennis videos. Yeah, but what about your dad? Oh, no, he's fine

He spends all his time on Facebook lapping up the racism. And how does that impact

on his attitude to the real world? Well, he's terrorised his own granddaughter into going to the park now

because she's been told that all the brown boys are rapists. Spend all this time

talking about children's relationship with social media when the real damage being done to the country

is probably older people's relationship. I don't know, but I do know that you can tell me what it's like

03456060973. When your family, your loved ones, get radicalised by far-right politicians

or far-right rhetoric on social media. How on earth is there any way back

Can you land anything in the area that might remind them what life used to be like

and what the light looks like Hit the numbers now you will get through And don be shy you don have to use your real name if you worried about being recognised And I hope you can tell from the way I spoken to other people today

that you can rely on my kindness, actually, in this kind of context

Because I feel heartbroken for both ends of this relationship, actually. Especially because you know that they didn't used to be like this

Something has happened to them, or worse. something has been done to them by the people we've spent most of today talking about

17 minutes after 12 is the time. Hit those numbers now. You will get through

James O'Brien on LBC. 3,000 holes in Blackburn, Lancashire. Thank you to Misha who has solved that brain worm for me, wasn't it

30,000 mosques in Bolton, Lancashire. It's a song, isn't it? The Beatles song

Thank you, Philip. It's just me, is it, that had that little thing niggling in the back of her brain when Sandra said 3,000

It's a day in the life, right? I think it is. Anyway, what's it like when a family member

is radicalised by either far-right politicians or online hate? Michael is in Manchester

Michael, what made you pick up the phone? Hi, James. It's nice to speak to you again

We've spoken about this previously. Go on. On this occasion, I'm mid-painting my living room

so thanks for the welcome distraction. Well, yes, quite nice to have the radio on

when you're painting, because it somehow keeps you company. What colour are you doing it

Something nice and neutral. Like a, yeah, well, no, actually quite a bold

somewhere between dark, greeny-blue. Oh, lovely. And is it a feature wall, or are you doing the whole room

Gone from a blue feature wall, going to the full room. Oh. Might be painting it back

Lovely stuff. Very shortly after. Anyway. That's the niceties out of the way

Yeah. Yeah, so I'm the guy we've spoken before. I am estranged from my parents

I have a daughter, now three years old. My sister is also up in Carlisle

She is also estranged from my parents who live in Palo. And she also has a daughter

My niece is about 10. So that's the background. So they're not seeing their grandparents on one side

Yeah, correct. Oh, man. Yeah. Now our relationship is basically, we've tried

I think I'm coming at this from what can be done. and I'm the case of, if you feel like nothing can be done

it was obviously really kind of heartening, but sad hearing from the last couple of calls

Well, you cut the wire, didn't you? I think there were Tommy Robinson marches involved

Correct. So let's go back, can we, to how it started. So start with your parents

Yeah. How did it start? When did you first think, aye, aye, this isn't right

So the Brexit vote obviously was one of the big ones. voted Brexit. Yeah, but again

I mean, I will still say plenty of perfectly decent people voted Brexit. It didn't mean

that they were racists. Yeah, our relationship carried on after that because, as you say

it's no guarantee. Following that, I live up in Manchester, so we were in Piccadilly Gardens with

them and, a bit like the previous caller, a couple of ladies wearing full niqabs with their

little kids pushing prams walked by and my dad just came out with, should be illegal

shouldn't be allowed to wear those. out of the blue. So that was a bit of a red flag

Yes. But still, not full on, I mean, I don't want to choose my words carefully

but not full on bigot because I can understand the problems that some people have

with any cultural requirement upon a woman to cover herself up. And equally, you know

we've taken calls over the years from women who wear the full veil who insist that they're doing so entirely

of their own volition and there's no pressure being put upon them whatsoever

and that it's incredibly restrictive and repressed of us to tell them what they can and can't wear

so it does cut both ways I guess I'm saying it and I wouldn't at that point have said

well my dad's lost to me and I don't think you did either No I didn't

so it took they were the first couple of symptom signs and then a bit of a difficult relationship

with my partner and general family stuff before my daughter came along

and then yeah the Tommy Robinson first Tommy Robinson match was the big one where we had a full-blown argument

and things kind of moved into, do I feel safe, you being around my daughter

and do I want to spend energy? Because of what might be said, just to be clear

not because of any other form of threat or fear, but because if you're going on that march

then you're possessed of opinions that you might not want your child exposed to

100%. And we, obviously, they live in Carlisle, very different. We're on the border of Manchester and Bolton

where all those mosques are. It's 30,000, mate. There must be at least two on your street

There is, yeah, yeah. And even if there was, I mean, crikey, so what

There are people praying down with that sort of thing. But I'm not Nick Timothy, so obviously I'm joking

My daughter goes to nursery in Salford, obviously very multicultural even at her age

a nursery there in that area. So she knows nothing different. And I want to keep it that way as long as possible, ideally

And if they're walking around with her in Carlisle and somebody's spouting some hate, they would feel comfortable being nearer that than I would

or my daughter being nearer that than I would. I think you'll understand this question, but I'm happy to explain it further if you don't

What do they think is wrong with you? They think, like the previous caller said

walk, snowflake. Do they know what they mean by those words? Yeah, well, they never believe when I come back with them

when I've tried in the past, because I've gone through all the steps, ask the questions and try to give the facts, that kind of thing

It's all just, you can't believe that. You know, how can you believe those people

That's not true. And they think I've been radicalised by my partner

and her family were fairly, you know, I mean... Is your partner from an ethnic minority

Just remind me. She's not. No, no, she's not. OK, but they think she's the one that's come up with all these fancy ideas

Yeah, so we live, her family are born and raised in Manchester

So in a way, you know, I've been stolen, I've been radicalised into a far-left socialist family

And is it, I mean, I'm really sorry, you know that, I told you that last time

But is it that everybody brown is a problem now? Have we reached that point

No, the usual things come out of, you know, my dad had a bit of a fall on a sailing trip

and he was treated in a hospital. He had quite a long stay in there, he had physio

you know, all his doctors. My sister lives next to an Indian family who invite them round for Diwali meals

and their friends on Facebook. So they see all this horrible stuff

And no, they don't think it's... Like I said, they live in Carlisle

They're in a 75% ownership socialist policy housing thing. They're both retired

So it's the barbarians in the next valley? Yeah, I guess so, yeah

And just, yeah, when I had the conversation, I drove up to Carlisle

I drove up to Penrith to try and have a chat with them. And it was about the jihad and, you know

they're not compatible with the Western world. But they don't know any of these people

they don't encounter any of these people, they just keep being told about them, and their algorithms then get re-engineered to tell them about it

constantly, constantly, constantly fighting age men, rather than, for example, working age men

which might be a more normal phrase to use in that kind of context, and the presence..

And as I keep saying, if it were true, if the grievances were entirely correct, nobody would need to make stuff up

Yeah, but they don't believe it's made up. They believe it. So I think they fully believe these things

I mean, and the difficulty is, and I think the hard bit of a distinction might be that he's a really well-educated guy

I mean, it sounds like the guy from Glasgow, as Dad also is. But, you know, went to university, well-read, studied law

all of a sudden when we were talking about this immigration kind of thing

came out with about, I bet you're a pro-Palestinian as well, and he'd read into the history

of Israel-Palestine and I didn't understand he was pro-Israel so he does go out there and seek

some kind of knowledge I think he's actually, I mean I don't, obviously it's been a couple of years

now, I don't really keep in touch, but I think he's running or has been running for

to be a councillor or something, reform councillor up in Carlisle Right. Is it over, do you think? Can you see any way back

I don't think so. I just wanted to call, really, and say, obviously, I know, hopefully, I'm hoping, I'm listening

I'm hoping that somebody will come up with a bit of an idea of how you said, maybe we can come up with a reason of how you can fix it, how you can mend it

Well, they'll need your help at some point, perhaps, even, you know, physically, let alone emotionally

And I don't know, what will you do then? I mean, I think I have told myself, basically, I'm treating myself as the child in this

If I've got my own child, I'm putting my 100% effort into my family and my child

Yeah. Until they do the same with theirs, then I don't think there's anything I can do

I tried. I did really try for several years. It took a lot out of me. And I think ultimately what I came to is I could try and fight and fight and fight now

maybe get some therapy to help me through it. Right. But actually, ultimately, what I've told myself is if it gets to that point and I feel guilt

of them not being in my life in the last kind of years, then I'll seek some therapy to deal with the guilt that comes with that

Well, do what's always... I mean, again, I'm not in any position to give anybody any advice

except to do what's best for you, I suppose, as opposed to second-guessing what might be best for other people

It's a horrible picture that you paint, and I'm sure you're doing grand by your daughter

but it's an absence in her life that no-one would want to have, isn't it

Least of all you, and yet there comes a point where there is more negativity coming into a relationship than positivity

and unless you cut the umbilical, then you make things worse, not better

It's, um... 100%. Ah, man, I don't know. If, listen, theoretical universe

if you just got them offline for a week, do you reckon it'd be all right

or is it too far gone, it's too bedding? No, he's a pretty stubborn guy

but yeah, definitely Facebook. He's really active on Facebook. I don't follow him anymore

but from what I've... I met up with a couple of friends in the park the other day for a walk, and she said she sees things on there all the time, basically

In fact, when we were having that conversation, was a bit of a sad element to it. We and this friend were talking

I was carrying on my daughter, and she said, oh, would your dad do this? And she said, dad. And my daughter looked at me and said

who's your dad? Oh, Lord. So, you know... And he doesn't care enough

I mean, to even just keep a lid on it when he's with you. I think, to be completely fair to him

I think that became a... They said that politics should be separate

We should be able to have a relationship and keep it separate. I think it was me who said

that was kind of fine with the Brexit that was fine with the comments in Piccadilly Gardens

but travelling past Manchester from Carlisle past your granddaughter to go to a Tommy Robinson march

you know, alright you can do what you want with your time it's your life but you're a retiree

so yeah, you make a choice yeah, you're letting go of hope

you're letting go of hope and how often do I say on the programme that hope is the thing that gets you

the despair you can deal with and that is the right thing to do to look after yourself, to protect yourself

and to protect others. So you let go of hope. And, of course, you are still reachable

but you are no longer reaching out. Half past 12 is the time

It's the land that Nigel built. And, you know, you don't get to choose whether or not you live in it

Even if you can see through all the grifts and all the unpleasantness

and all the racism and all the lies, you still have to live in it

as Michael and others and Sandra have demonstrated so powerfully. Amelia Hughes is here now with your headline

Amelia Cox, I don't know where that came from. Amelia Cox is here now with the headlines. James O'Brien on LBC

We're always sitting here, don't we? And we go, oh, he's very good at it, isn't he? He's very good at it

I mean, he's very good at the kind of golf club racism. But the rest of the grift, is he actually that good at it

This line today is coming out. Well, we didn't actually take any money. We didn't take any money

That's Farage's defence against allegations that his key allies plotted to take money in an illegal fashion

Well, we didn't take it. Of course you didn't take any money. It's what my friend Scott has just pointed out

Of course you didn't take any money. They were journalists. There was no money. How can that be a defect

Well, we didn't take any money. It would be a bit like, for example

when they invent the existence of a young person, for example, to entrap a potential paedophile

And you say, well, there wasn't a young person there, so why am I interested? There wasn't any money there. It's ridiculous, that defence

You are plotting to do something wrong with people who aren't actually capable of doing the wrong thing

but are there to find out whether or not you're up for it. And it turns out you are

So your defence is, well, we didn't take any money. That's ridiculous. And, of course, we're talking about the people who've fallen for it

and have fallen for it so far that it is jeopardising and even fracturing

the closest relationships they ever had. Some of my texts are absolutely heartbreaking

I mean, the calls are bad enough, good enough, heartbreaking enough. But the texts from people who understandably don't want to come on

are arguably even more so. We'll get to some of those shortly. But first, Graham is in Downderry in Cornwall

Graham, what would you like to say? Yeah, hi. I'm just reiterating what some of the other callers have said, really

My father, since retirement, he's gone down the slippery slope of reading everything online

He has his mobile phone attached to his hand and the algorithms are just plumbing him with far-right racket

All the time. All the time. All the time. All the time. When did you first start getting concerned

Can you remember milestones or moments? or is it all lost to them? Yeah, it's since retirement

I think he's worked his whole life, but he's worked around the globe as well

which makes it even more concerning for me. He's worked with people from all around the world

different nationalities, you know, and he's just all of a sudden, since retirement, I'd say in the last four or five years

maybe post-Brexit, it's just all the time. And what are the things he will come out with

that upset you the most or offend you the most? I think the thing that upset me the most was we had some Afghani girls start the local

comprehensive school Right Obviously they been through a traumatic time My daughter took the time to help them girls integrate into the school She just finished her GCSE

so we're going back a year ago. But she took the time out to help integrate these girls

into the school. There was obviously a language barrier, but she'd done the best she could

and she was quite proud of that, as were me and her mother. I went round and told my dad

about it and he sort of like made a laugh, a joke

about it and he's like, what's she doing that for? They shouldn't even be here anyway, you know

And I'm just like, Dad, are you serious? You know? And it's

hard every time we go around the house now, he can't help himself

Immigration this, immigration that. That's a really interesting psychological point, isn't it

It's like he needs to see your, he's not doing it to wind you up, but

it's almost like he wants to push you to a point where you agree with him or you let it slide

Because it's almost like he's aware that it's wrong, but he's waiting for validation from you to tell him that it's not

I think so, yeah. I mean, it's got to the point where we've started calling him Nigel

Which he takes as a compliment. He gets very angry about it

Oh, does he? He's like, no, I'm not, no, I'm not. So in his head... There's still a chance then

There's still a chance, Graham. Yeah, I know. In his head, he doesn't think he's being racist

or far right or, you know, he just thinks he's defending the nation

or whatever, I don't know. And everybody else actually agrees with him

It's just you're too woke to see it. Yeah, yeah. Or whatever it may be

It's just, but even my mother, she's always got that phone glued to his hand

and he's reading the Daily Mail non-stop, he's watching YouTube videos and I think the algorithms are just, oh yeah, we're reeling in, you know

And most of what he's seeing will not be true or it will be horribly exaggerated or horribly embellished

and you can't get close enough to say, Dad, if it was such a big problem, why do they have to keep making stuff up

Exactly. What are you going to do? I mean, Michael's example is extreme

I wouldn't wish that on any family. I feel sorry for Michael. Yeah, me too. But you're going to try and keep it boxed off

Yeah, I still want a relationship with my dad. I ask him not to mention anything about his views around my daughter

which he's okay with. you know, but when I go visit him, it's one of the first things he brings

up and I'm just like, Dad, I don't want to hear it. Leave it, mate. Leave it, Dad. Do we not talk about the cricket

Do we not talk about the footy? Fine examples of multiculturalism and diversity that they both are

Exactly. I mean, I just feel sorry for the other callers that have

like, the bridges have been burned, you know. And then again, it's

the internet more perhaps than some of the politicians who are because you can't turn it off

No, you can't. I mean, you can technically, but they can't turn it off. They need it

It's like some sort of drip. Take care, mate, seriously. And congratulations on raising a daughter

in such a beautiful fashion that she would want to do such a beautiful thing. That's genuinely special

I genuinely wish that her own granddad could have appreciated it more

As long as she never gets around to teaching them conkers, we should be golden. Thank you, Graham

It's coming up to 20 to 1. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC

It is. It's another one here. Don't say my name. Remember that you need to get that at the top of the message

or it's better if you do. I don't want to call in in case he's listening and recognises my voice

My dad, and I do love him to bits, is absolutely what you're describing. He reads the Daily Mail. He watches GB News

We recently drove past some land near me, which has been allocated for a new housing estate

And out of nowhere, he flew completely off the handle about effing immigrants getting all the housing

He went from calm to angry in seconds, James, and all his arguments crumbled under scrutiny

but he carries on. I love him, his kindness and his generosity in my life and to my family

Sorry, I love him, his kindness and his generosity in life and family

but I absolutely hate how blinkered and gullible he's become in his old age

And as I mentioned, there is an awful lot of this, including an ex-husband as well

He became increasingly right-wing during COVID and then it got worse. The laptop or the phone were often the triggers

and the news. It got so bad that if my son and I were watching the news

we'd have to change the channel if he came into the room as there was something would be sure to trigger him

He sucked all the joy and relaxation out of the room as soon as he came into it

This is heartbreaking as well, but for slightly different reasons. I've given up, James

I'm third generation British, thanks to my dad and his forefathers working with the British

but I am a bit brown and I give up. I'm so tired of trying to prove my Britishness

In their country, I'm a foreigner. They are allowed to be xenophobic

and I have decided to take my business that employs 23 people and move abroad

because then at least I'm making myself a visitor and not fighting to not be a foreigner in my own home

That's from Suzanne in Ealing, and that is a horrible thing to read, and quite a few of you making this point

We have to talk about the monetisation of hate on X. You can earn a living now by selling hate on X

from racism right through to movies. I think I read that Rupert Lowe was making as much money

from selling hate on X as he is from being an MP. I may have misremembered that

but it's an example of what that text and many others are talking about

12.41 is the time. Lily is in Newcastle. Lily, what would you like to say? Hi, yeah

So, a bit of a similar story to the others, I guess, but with a friend rather than family member

So, one of my, like, very good best friends, well my best friend actually

told me a couple of years ago that he was thinking of running as a reform councillor

and I told him you know if you do that we can't be friends anymore

because I do quite a lot of like feminist activism online and I was like this is completely opposed to everything

they've got a lot of pro-abortionists at their current conference down in Birmingham

for people who may be wondering why that would be a deal breaker for you there's a I'm sorry anti-abortionists

at the conference in Birmingham, a lot of this so-called evangelical right-wing

pseudo-religious, in my view, rhetoric that is essentially just designed to repress women

and set equal rights back generations, both in terms of women and in terms of LGBTQ people as well

Was it a bolt from the blue when he told you this? I was quite surprised, yeah

Like, in terms of, we always had different political opinions. like he was um more conservative i would say than i am but we've kind of like learned and we did live

together for a period of time we'd learned to like just sort of live that we had like differing

opinions and just you know live alongside each other when it came down to generally being good people and what we wanted for people we had different opinions on how we would reach that conclusion but we wanted the same things or that what i thought um and then you know this was at the very beginning i think when those

kind of opinions on abortion was first starting to come out of reform when they were just sort of

drip feeding it in the very beginning and so when i said you know we can't be friends because of this

this and this, he looked into it and said, okay, I've looked into it, I understand

what you're saying, I'm not going to do it. And then he went back for more

About six months later there was just an announcement on Facebook one

day, I was completely blindsided by it, that he had become a reform councillor

How did he greet, I mean, have you called time on the friendship or are you still in there trying to..

No, no, we haven't really spoken since then. What do you think happened to him

I don't know Honestly I'm not sure I saw like a couple of weeks ago

That he had liked an article On Facebook that said Feminism is a cancer

And it really really Because I was like I thought we knew each other

So well And we knew everything about each other And I thought we had at least a level of mutual

Respect for each other But that, to like something like that that is a direct kind of

indication. Do you think it's the misogyny that's attracted him more than the racism then

Or is it too tricky to tell? I honestly don't really know

and I don't really understand it because on the face of it when we have conversations about

these things we seem to agree or we did used to previously

so I've kind of, I'm completely lost as to where it's come from because I don't know

whether he's lied about his opinions to me for all that time

Or whether he's changed. Or whether he's changed and he hasn't told me he's changed

But I didn't see anything that would indicate that he was going to go that way

And then all of a sudden he just went that way. Oh, boy. I mean, it's sad

I mean, it's just sad. And it's sad for him in a way as well because he's lost someone special in his life too

And yet he's clearly getting something that he considers to be more valuable

And in a way, so are you. you know, you're holding on to your principles and your decency

And that wouldn't allow you to stay friends with somebody who has neither

It is 12.45, you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. You're going to talk to the Senior Director of Policy and UK Programs

at Transparency International next about what these allegations and recordings might mean

in the event of, or just what the investigations could lead to

in the event of the allegations turning out to be well-founded. And I've got a lovely

I mentioned it right at the top of the show today, by complete coincidence. My full disclosure guest this week

is the restaurant critic and writer and all-round very, very good egg

Fascinating career. Jay Rayner. I think he got a bit cross on me

for asking too many questions about his mum. But if you're my age, you're fascinated by Claire Rayner

who was a sort of doyen of agony arts and a brilliant broadcaster and journalist

as is he, as you'll know if you listen to his Radio 4 show

The Kitchen Cabinet. But it's a lovely, lovely interview. And I just remembered that his first restaurant

when he moved to the Financial Times from The Observer was Rules. He went to Rules. But that's how iconic it is

And that's where Farage's mates just sort of go for normal lunches

all the time, it would appear. But anyway, power to the people

James O'Brien on LBC. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

I don't know if we'll have time to return to this. If not, my apologies to Jane and Lorraine, to Isaac, Jake, Tom

Also friends, not just family members, but this one got me. No name, she said

I'm 53 years old. My godmother broke my heart into pieces when I saw that she referred to teachers

I am a teacher, as dirty lefty brainwashers and corrupters of children

Of course, the GB News Free Speech Union posts and videos were all over her Facebook page

explaining how a once warm and tolerant human being has been turned into a seething mass of venom and bile

I mean, I suppose the phrase would be, I'm sorry for your loss, because that's what it feels like

And, of course, the original inspiration for this conversation was the report last night into the plot

to essentially secure foreign donations in contravention of all the rules and probably, possibly laws

by Nigel Farage's closest associates, He's his head of policy and his bag carrier in chief

And Nigel Farage is continuing attempts at obfuscation and denial. Duncan Hames is a senior director of policy and UK programs at Transparency International UK

Quick word on what you do at Transparency International. Duncan, if you would. We're an anti-corruption campaign, part of a worldwide movement in over 100 countries

trying to clean up politics and promote integrity in public life. It'll never catch on

What does this matter? What is your initial reaction to this particular story

And why do foreign donations currently, or why are they not currently permitted in this country

So what we saw in that film was utter contempt for the idea

that everyone in politics needs to work and compete within the rules

rather than conspiring to evade them. And as you say, these aren't just rules, they are laws

The political parties, elections, and referendums act specifies criminal offences of which conspiring to evade the controls

on where the money comes from in British politics is one. and so the allegations that are aired

and appear in the course of this film do warrant a police investigation

Do you expect one? The Electoral Commission have said they are in touch with the Metropolitan Police

Is there a precedent for this? Can you think of any previous or recent examples of something similar

Well, I mean, there is precedent for police investigation. the loans for peerages

about 20 years ago now during the Blair government that was a police investigation

people close to the Prime Minister were I think interviewed under caution

the police took that matter very seriously and the law was changed subsequently

to make sure that lending money to a political party had the same transparency rules

as giving money so it was with consequence That's right. Quite a loophole

And why, I think I know the answer to this, but it be interesting to hear you say it Why does it matter if the donations are foreign Why should they be treated differently from donations to donations from people who do live here or who are based here Well a lot of people in this country care about sovereignty

Well, they claim to. The idea that our democracy is sovereign, that it's people of this country, in this country

that ought to be deciding its future democratically. And so that's why there's particular rules about foreign money

though our view is that when politicians become very dependent on particular financial backers

whether that money's come from abroad or from at home it still presents a corruption risk and it

still distorts their priorities away from ordinary people as in and towards the people who are

backing them the people upon whom they are financially dependent because although this

is frequently denied that relationship. What can't be denied is the fact that reform in particular

are almost entirely reliant on two cryptocurrency characters, one of whom is being pardoned for

financial crimes by Donald Trump. Yes, and he has now given the Reform Party more money than the

$10 million penalty he agreed to pay the US authorities for the anti-money laundering

failures in his crypto exchange that he founded before he was pardoned. And I know it is in the

realms of speculation, but I mean, beyond altruism or a belief that Nigel Farage is going to be

dedicating himself to the advancement of libraries in Wolverhampton and schoolgirls in Preston

they, we presume that you expect something in return for this level of largesse

well it was interesting in that film the aid when they were discussing

whether it be a reasonable thing for the company to make a donation

and whether it was a commercial interest he talked about the relationship with him

that this donation was nurturing and said that you know given the

the political success that his party were having, that he argued that ought to represent a business interest

You're right. I think that's what you're most shocked by, isn't it? Is the idea that in private there's not even any pretense

of caring about precedents or rules. No, and also culturally, something which came across in that film

was the currency that donations has within that network of political operators

One of them talks about how this is his donor, back off

And the policy guy, a guy who's doing policy, sits there and talks about how the fundraising he's done

makes him a powerful man in the party. And that's quite revealing, I think

of what's happening to the political culture there and is really rather ugly

let's broaden it out if we can in conclusion because you know there is an awful lot of money

swilling around in politics and it is not confined to reform although no other parties

currently face allegations or accusations of this nature transparency international would like to

see a much more regulated system of political donations across all parties i think yes we

would like to see a much more a very meaningful cap on how much anyone can give a political party

or a candidate in the course of a year. And we've been arguing for that for some time

A lot of MPs were arguing for it in Parliament just this week. And I think at the end of that debate

the ministers said that, you know, the Prime Minister acknowledged that even money from the UK

these mega donors, is a problem for the health of our democracy

It's tricky for the unions, though, for a Labour Prime Minister, isn't it? Because the unions fall under the same category of donor, potentially

Or would you look chiefly at individuals? It depends how they operate

There's a perfectly good argument to say that they are actually very different, right

Union members pay a sub every month, a chunk of which goes into a political fund

and that fund is then passed to the political party that the union is affiliated to

and that those members know is the case. So there's a kind of pooling and aggregating of a lot of people's small donations there

Okay, yeah. and um so it's not the same it's not the same it's not without risks don't get me wrong i think if a

single union leader has a lot of discretion over how much money ends up in a political party and

engages in political demands around that donation and their own personal influence over it you you

you risk some of the same problems but fundamentally is a very different sort of fundraising that's

just um let's enforce one of the points you've just made with this little clip from last night of

uh dan dukes the so-called what did he call him a contractor was it a contractor used to sit here

you know she used to sit here just a contractor contractor who carries his bags polishes his shoes

yes sir no sir three bags full so here he is um picking up unintentionally because it happened

before we spoke to him on some of the points that have just been made what kind of figure donations

Right, so I've got a budget, um, for... We've got, yeah, we've got our commercial operations

and this sits somewhere between the commercial and the philanthropic, right? It's a little bit of both

Um, so I think we could probably go... You know, if Nigel makes it number 10, you know, you're having a pie

with who's effectively going to be his chief of staff at number 10. Yeah, exactly. If that isn't in business insurance, I don't know what it is

No, exactly, exactly. I'd missed that. I'd missed that. I mean, I saw it last night

but I can see why you've picked up on it, Duncan. There it is, out in the open, quid

Pro quid, or quo. I'll just read this, because we haven't been in Idiot's Corner for a while

Kevin's been in touch. So it's just like Angela Rayner getting £10,000 for a one-hour speech to house-building companies

Yeah, it's just like that, mate. Except that that didn't happen in secret. It wasn't revealed as a consequence

of undercover investigative journalism. It was declared in all of the correct fashions

and nobody is suggesting that any rules or laws were broken. So apart from that, mate, yeah, exactly the same

you crack on with the kool-aid and have a lovely weekend that is it from me for another day you can

listen back on our free global player app if you missed any of the show good show today i mean

they're all good but this was really good terrible it was absolutely shocking you can stay up to date

with all the latest news videos and opinions um thank you to duncan haymes from transparency

international you can also listen to a range of podcasts including the full disclosure episode i haven't had the chance to plug properly today it's with jay rayner and it's lovely download

the official lbc app for free from your app store now tom swarbrick will be with you at four sheila

Fogarty. Sheila Rubbish is with you now. Tai Chi, remember. James O'Brien on LBC