Trump's press ban leads the US down a dangerous path | James O'Brien - The Whole Show

Minutes after ten, a very good morning to you. I hope you had a splendid weekend. Perhaps

perhaps you went away. Perhaps you enjoyed a little bit of UK hospitality. I don't know

I mention it because we haven't done this before and I want to do it today. I'm looking at the

list of countries where you would expect to pay a tourist tax. And it's all of them. Spoiler

alert, it's pretty much all of them. Certainly the last three or four countries I've visited

all have a tourist tax in place, and it's usually relatively buttons, it's usually

relatively tiny, and yet in this country, it has turned into a political issue

There's a few ways into this. There's a part of me that actually

I always, you know how I work, I always want the angle that I haven't lived myself

the thing I'm most interested in is often the view through a window that I don't have in my house

Do you know what I mean? So, what's it like to live permanently in a place where the rest of us go on holiday

and do you think, therefore, as a consequence of being someone who lives permanently

in a place where the rest of us go on holiday, that a tourist tax makes absolutely perfect sense

Because at the moment, all of the local amenities are paid for via your personal tax

via your council tax or something like that. The fundamental injustice of it all

has never really struck me before. It's the best answer probably by asking the question

why do tourist taxes exist? And the answer is because tourists exert..

I know they bring money to an area, but not in terms of local taxes

They bring money in terms of the VAT take or the profits that are made by the businesses

and therefore the wages that are paid. But none of that really specifically goes into providing the infrastructure for the areas

So I just kind of find myself thinking, especially when some people

you know, have you seen this Jim Ratcliffe bloke? Imagine the British media pressing pause to pay attention

to what a Brexit-supporting tax exile, who the last time he weighed in on the immigration conversation

His facts were so spectacularly wrong that he made a reform voter look informed

And yet, once again, he's come out to slag off a country he doesn't even live in anymore

And, of course, he contributed enormously to our current problems by thinking that Brexit would be a good idea or good for the economy

We're such a deferential, full-lock-tugging country that simply because he's very rich, we think he must be qualified to comment on other matters

If you want advice on how to get very, very rich while also not paying income tax in this country

He's your man. If you want advice on how to contribute to a conversation about immigration

while being utterly ignorant of all of the most obvious and observable facts

then he's your man. If you want to have a conversation about how on earth anybody's brain could be so boiled

that they persuaded themselves that Brexit would be good for Britain or good for the British economy, then he's your man

You want to have a conversation about anything else, he's not your man. Just because he's very, very rich doesn't mean he's going to be good at cricket

or good at physics. Well, actually, physics is a bad example. He probably is quite good at physics

But he's not going to be good at poetry just because he's very, very rich

So why on earth would we listen to him on social cohesion or the state of the nation

It baffles me. But it speaks to a really kind of feudal attitude

to the very, very rich. And because we have this feudal attitude

to the very, very rich in this country, because we have been conditioned for generations to think

that if you're very, very rich, you must A, deserve all that money, and B, be possessed of some really amazing talents and skills that the rest of us lack

Because we have that attitude socially, we have been persuaded to be opposed to every tax

every increase in tax, every tax pretty much. The idea that we are a heavily taxed population is true actually if you're a high earner

It's not true if you're not, although you wouldn't know that from looking at much of public discourse

And so the tourist tax, a nightly rate for people staying overnight in visitor accommodation of buttons

I'm conscious sometimes of being a little bit better off than the average fellow at the moment

But the idea that 75p plus VAT, if you're staying in a hostel, a shared room or a campsite, is going to be prohibitive, seems to me to be a little bit daft

and then the fee, the cost that would be incurred if you were staying in other types of accommodation

would be £1.30 a night plus VAT you wouldn't pay for the kids

and if you were staying for more than 31 nights then you might get a break as well

but otherwise the idea of a tourist tax strikes me as a really obvious way

in which to provide communities upon which the rest of us descend regularly

with a little bit more money to spend on the things that everybody uses all year round

Hey, kind of like wear and tear is the phrase that I'm thinking of

We've got general wear and tear on amenities and community assets. And I turn up for a..

Well, that's the other thing I thought that we'd talk about, is what it's like to go on holiday in this country

So I was trying to explain to a colleague earlier why this isn't about putting people off

Nobody really sits there to plan their fortnight's holiday. And, well, I don't believe

God, he's speaking with extraordinary confidence again on a subject that he's got absolutely no proof of

But I don't think many people sit there. Maybe it's going to change a bit with climate change

And I don't mean that in a stupid sort of Daily Telegraph columnist kind of

well, let's all enjoy the new hot weather. I just mean maybe it is going to change, you know

You do look at the climate now, you do look at the weather, and you do think, well, we can have a proper summer holiday

in England. We could go to Norfolk for a fortnight instead of going to Greece

It's not good, it's just true. That's how our minds work. But I don't think at the moment

anybody sits there and weighs up the thought of a fortnight in Magaluf

and then puts it opposite a fortnight in, I'm trying to think of a British

Margate, I was trying to think of a British seaside resort that begins with an M

I just don't think we do that. I think we're comparing apples with pears

aren't we? You go to the British seaside, you go to British tourist

destinations for a shorter hop. You go for a long weekend, you go for a bank holiday

You don't, generally speaking, and statistics do support me on this, so if you, I mean

if you do have your big holiday every year in this country, you're not disproving my observation by

telling me that you exist. You're simply establishing yourself as an exception that proves the rule

We don't do it like that. We, um, We visit domestic resorts and domestic destinations for different reasons from our from what I'm going to loosely describe as our big holidays so

The first question I'd like you to answer is And I looking at my screen I got a caller from Leicester and a caller from Preston at the moment So you neither of you if that is where you live neither of you are qualified to answer this question And I bear no malice I bear no ill will towards Preston or Leicester

But what's it like to live in a place permanently that the rest of us visit

Just tell me something I don't know about what that's like. And I don't mean second homes

I mean your permanent home is in a place that the rest of us visit

So for four to five months of the year, probably, you run a very real risk of being knocked over in a stampede of sandcastle-building children

And for the rest of the year, it's a bit of a ghost town. What is it like to live in a holiday town

0345 6060 973. Tell me the things I don't know. Tell everybody the things that we don't know

And then tell me how that informs your attitude towards a visitor levy

because sometimes I look at the news and I think this is just daft

You know, we're back to the kind of Brexit-supporting tax exile billionaires

leading national discourse because they find the idea of paying their way repugnant and repellent

This is dedication to trousering and keeping more money than any human being could ever reasonably need or spend

And it's built upon the idea of persuading ordinary people that they're somehow victims of the scheme as well

But I just think it's probably one of the simplest and most straightforward ideas that a government has had in years

Of course we should pay a little bit extra to the town that we visit

But that's why the first question I would like to ask you is what is it like to live in a seaside town

I mean, is there even such a thing anymore? All I ever really read about is how former seaside towns

have become pale shadows of their former selves. Whether you're talking about Blackpool or places that I know

Let's start with places that I know. Okay, so I've spent a little bit of time in Margit

And the reason I pronounce it like that is because every time I go to Margit, I like to put the Chas and Dave song on the car hi-fi

And the Chas and Dave song makes it absolutely crystal clear that it is pronounced Margit

And not Margate, as lily-livered southerners like me might... Well, Margate's even further south than we are

But I know Margate. Margate is nice. But it's not somewhere I'd go for a fortnight

I'd go for a weekend. I'd go and see a gig at Dreamland. I'd stay in a nice hotel if it was possible, which it isn't always

because the music festivals sort of clog up the accommodation. And you're asking me to pay £1.30 extra a night towards the costs of running Margate

Of course I should, as a visitor, pay a little bit extra, because otherwise all of the cost lands upon the people that live there all year round

But what's it like to live there all year round? Does anybody still go on holiday to Blackpool

Again, as a kid, I went on holiday to Blackpool, but only for a sort of long weekend

I don't think we ever went for our... Well, we did actually. We stayed for a week in Lytham St. Anne's

So that was a British holiday. Of course a tourist tax makes sense

What is it that I am supposed to be objecting to? And there may well be things

0345 6060 973. But the real question here is not about the efficacy or otherwise of the actual levy itself

It's about the things that we don't know. I mean, they've had a look at it at..

My Welsh pronunciation, as you know, is absolutely pitiful. But they've had a look at it in Gwynedd and they've paused it, this Welsh Council, after a public consultation

48.7% of residents supported it. 43.5% were against. So already it's a more interesting debate than I've allowed

I think it's a no-brainer. And then you've got 14.7% of businesses supported it

while 79.5% opposed it, which, again, to me, makes sense, because the business wants to keep the money for itself

as opposed to the money going back into council coffers in order to improve the general quality of the town

And 80% of visitors opposed it as well, because it's going to cost them £1.30 a night

to stay in hotels where it currently doesn't cost them £1.30 a night

so if you combine visitors, residents and businesses you've got 22.7% support

this is just one Welsh council that's done the work and has therefore paused its decision to impose a tourism tax

and you've got 68.5% against and yet if you go to Greece or Spain or France

or pretty much any country that you've visited in recent years you have paid a tourist tax

and here's the thing I bet you haven't even noticed I bet you haven't even noticed

which is why for me at least we begin this morning's contemplations with this question

what's it like to live in a place permanently that the rest of us visit temporarily what do

you know that we don't oh three four five six oh six oh nine seven three james o'brien on lbc

sing chas and dave songs sometimes in the mornings and don't take this personally all right you know

that I love you, don't you? You should know that by now. If you don't know that by now, then

I do. I love you. I mean, I'm so weird. Most people on Sunday evenings

that the opening bars of the Antiques Roadshow comes on and you get that little feeling

in your tummy that we used to get when you were at school. I'm the opposite. The opening

bars of the Antiques Roadshow come on and I'm thinking, oh, excellent. I get to see you again

tomorrow. What are we going to talk about when I get to work? But some mornings

I walk past the Classic FM studio on my way to LBC

It's on the same corridor. I walk past the Classic FM studio

and I see Dan handing over to Aled, and I think to myself

oh, that looks nice. Or if I'm a bit tired, say, and I just, oh, that's nice

Put a bit of Rachmaninoff on, put my feet up for 20 minutes, I could do my paperwork

I could phone my mum. It must be nice. And then I remember what it's like to do this

and I park it. And I wave goodbye to that little thought

because this is obviously the best job on British radio. And today, for the first time

I'm trying to find out what it's like to live in a place permanently that other people visit

And through that lens, we will examine the wisdom or otherwise of the so-called tourist tax

Oh, and don't forget the Burnham Optimism Barometer. Team of five. I'm the only one that's remembered it

Once again, it's all that heavy. Keith, are you with us today? Are you on board today

Anyone else doing the thing that is now in week 10? that I said someone else is going to have to remember it

otherwise I'd go, no, just me then. OK. So we'll do that at some point today as well

Thank you to everybody listening to the programme as opposed to working on it

who managed to remember the Burnham Optimism Barometer and me included as well

I can't, you know, I can't pretend that I had remembered it until you reminded me

Anyway, Stacey's in Ludlow. Does that count, Stacey? Is Ludlow a place that other people

that you live permanently where other people visit? I suppose it is. Got all the food festivals now

This summer we now have Live at Ludlow Castle which approximately I looking at Google because I actually don know the correct figures but 50 visitors came to Ludlow during those for the entire two or three weeks that we have They don do the Shakespeare there anymore do they They don no But like this year we had Rick Astley Richard Ascroft

those kind of big names. You had sister sisters. And while a lot of local people make the most of them being here

we did get an awful lot of people coming in to town for it

All the Airbnbs, like, all the hotels were booked up to the Hilt

like, you know, all of those kind of things. Yeah, now, I mean, not to state the bleeding obvious

but if you live there, then you're not going to need a hotel room or an Airbnb anytime soon, are you

Well, no, but I would say to your researcher, I sit on the town council as well

Do you? Very proudly. I'd have opened with that. I'd have opened with that if I was ringing the Stacey Show

and I sat on the town council in one of those places that the bloke on the radio is talking about

I'd have opened with the fact that I sit on the town council. but there we go. Oh, sorry

That just seems very relevant. Oh, thanks. Sometimes I'm a very modest person

I don't like to admit it. That's the big difference between us then, isn't it

You're a very modest person. I'm a massive show-off. So that's why I'd have opened with it

and you're far too grown up to do so. Go on. Tell me how that plays into your view of the tourist tax

Well, obviously we... On town council, we get to see how many people visit our town on any given month

We get footfall reports and everything else. And obviously we see, and we get complaints from residents as well

about bins not being emptied, infrastructure not being up to snuff, you know, all of those kind of things that you will rely on

It must be a nightmare to park in the middle of these things. It is, absolutely

And buses as well. recently Shropshire County Council have just taken our

parking rides there, this offer. Really? So, yeah, they cited that lack of funds

So they've taken that offer. So, obviously, when these things, like, if we had a

tourist tax, we would be able to put that money back into

emptying bins, parking, right, general infrastructure. And when it's, what you said, like, £1.80

something silly, £1.30 plus VAT. I mean, that's just such silly buttons money, like you said

£1.30 plus VAT. Well, Paul in Hornchurch doesn't think it's buttons. He thinks it's a significant sum of money

and it's only because of our incredibly privileged backgrounds that we don't understand it

He says there's a saying you've probably never heard of. It goes like this, take care of the pennies

and the pounds will look after themselves. I don't know what he's talking about. I don't think he does either

I'm a working class, mum of three, housewife as well and my dear husband

works 48, 50, 60 70 hours a week to make sure that we

can live. We live on a council estate I mean I think I'm

best paced to sort of say that £1.30 plus VAT a night is not going to

put anybody off coming to Ludlow for a jolly No, no exactly exactly

What's the conversation at council level like? I don't want you to betray any confidences

but is it being discussed yet? I can't really say that it has, to be perfectly honest

I know it's kind of in the ether, but it's not really being put forward to us

in a meeting or anything like that. We all know about it, I think, to some degree

but it's not something that's been voted on or put in as an item or anything like that

that we've actually discussed on a professional level. But you'd welcome it

And it's raised locally, so all the money would theoretically go on all of the things that affect the residents most

Well, exactly. You might even be able to bring back the park and ride

It would work out, including VAT, it would work out at £1.56 a night

That's nothing. Like, I don't understand how that would... And to be fair, Ludlow has a bit of an issue as well

with most of the houses, the housing stock being bought up and being rented out, like being used to second homes

holiday lets, Airbnbs. We've had many a conversation in our council chambers

where it's like... Protect the permanent residents. Make visitors feel welcome, but protect the permanent residents

I feel sometimes that when... Because Ludlow, I grew up near you

I don't know if you know that. I grew up in Kidderminster. I used to love... Yeah, my in-laws are from..

Well, my father-in-law is from Kidderminster. There you go. So we never really had a tourist trade in Kidderminster, Stacey

I can't think why. It's such a delightful, idyllic little town. But we never had a tourist trade

And Ludlow has gone bonkers in the course of my lifetime. So when I was a kid, we'd go on school trips to the castle

and then in summer they would put on a Shakespeare play in the grounds of the castle that was very, very special

But the food thing has exploded. So, you know, a couple of very fancy restaurants

I don't know if they're still there, and then the food festivals and all of the shops

it really became a destination. And if you'd lived there throughout that period

you've kind of watched a relatively sleepy little market town turn into a sort of Instagram-friendly influencer's paradise

and that's not fair on the people that live there all the time

I mean, I started college. I've always lived in the area. I grew up over the border in North Herefordshire

but I've always been, and my husband grew up in Lovellown. He was born here in the little hospital here

and he would always, like, when we were younger and I was at college

I always used to dislike tourist season because town would get so uncomfortably busy

Yeah, that's what I'm looking forward to today. Yes. Yeah. You couldn't go and do your little shops and things

I know for a fact, personally, when the food festival's in town

I will avoid town because it's just too much. And when you've got three little children in tow

that you're trying to keep an eye on and you've got loads and loads of people milling about

I'm really, really pleased. I'm really, really proud of our little town that it's managed to sort of break the mould and everything

and make its own way. but as a resident it can be very stressful

when everything is rammed to the hill and you can't move. And this would

help, this would alleviate it a little bit, especially if you could see the money being spent, and let's be honest

Stacey, if you can afford to stay at the Feathers you can afford to pay a couple of quid a night more per person

without it even touching the sides, can't you? You are not joking

David, like the Feathers is still incredibly expensive and way out of the reach

of a lot of people, so Yeah, exactly that. And for people who don't know Ludlow

the Feathers is an extraordinarily beautiful building. A full-on Tudor facade. All the timbering

It looks like something out of Diagon Alley, if that's a helpful architectural reference point

It's also where I had my first ever Bloody Mary in 1988

So they should probably put a blue plaque up. Thank you, Stacey. Claire's in Exmouth. I've also been to Exmouth on holiday

This is extraordinary. I know Ludlow and I know Exmouth. I stayed at the Imperial Hotel in Exmouth a couple of times as a kid and it some of my fondest holiday memories What made you pick up the phone today Claire I glad you enjoyed it But what made me pick up the phone today is

we have a major sewage issue in our area, and we're not the only ones along the coasts of Devon and Cornwall

Oh, of course, yes. As you may well know. I do. And there have been many times this year, this season

when beaches haven't been able to be safe to swim, which has affected not just local people

but obviously the tourists coming as well. Now, I have a thing for you. Do you

That's a very strange admission on a Monday morning. What sort of thing do you have for me? I thought you'd find it interesting

40 million visitors to Devon and Cornwall per year, okay? Wow. Our sewage treatment works is licensed for 24,000 people

Now, I know it's one of several, but they don't add up to 40 million

And what I'm saying is lovely tourists need to use facilities which need to be treated

which can't be treated because there's a lack of capacity, which means you can't swim in the beach when you come on holiday

I haven't thought of that. Or nor can local people. And local children have been getting ill swimming in the river

which is something that they've done for generations. In the River X

In the River X. And I would really love the tourist tax to come in

if we can use it to improve services like that. I don't know

I mean, that's going to be the water companies, isn't it, more than anything else? Well, if they stay privately owned, but yeah

Yeah, but they may not be for much longer. So that reminds me to do the Burnham Optimism Barometer

probably over the course of the half past ten news. So, I mean, whether or not..

But just one of the pressures, just one of the pressures of having lots of tourists come to your area

and we really do welcome them because of the business that they bring, but one of the pressures is on services like sewage

like parking, like your other... I never would have thought of that. Parking, I would have worked out

Public transport, I would have worked out. Hotels and Airbnbs doesn't really affect..

Well, except in terms of property prices. So, if people are buying places and then putting them on an Airbnb

it prices local people out. Local hospitals is another one. Local hospital services, obviously A&E centres and things like that

That's another big pressure point. I mean, the more we talk about it, and these results from Wales notwithstanding

where a massive majority of local businesses were against it, the residents were split more or less 50-50

the more we talk about it, the more amazing it is that we haven't had one of these things in place before

Because, of course, the strain upon a town or a city is going to increase exponentially during the holiday season

if it's a holiday destination. And the people that live there are essentially subsidising the people that visit

Yeah, because we already pay quite a high local tax. Which city in the UK..

And water waste and everything else. Yeah, I hear you. Which city in the UK do you think introduced a £1 tax to stay two or three years ago

All overnight guests in hotels or holiday apartments getting charged a pound a night

as part of a new scheme to raise money for the village, for the city

I'll tell you in a minute. No, it's a tease. I'll tell you in a minute because I think it's kind of pertinent

to what we're talking about and it's also a massive clue. In fact, after this clue, if you can't guess correctly

then frankly I'm going to ban you from the programme. It's also relevant to the Burnham Optimism Barometer

So over the course of this news bulletin, I want you to send in your mark out of ten for Andy Burnham

and how optimistic you feel about his premiership. The results so far, all eights and nines

I don't think we've ever gone below an eight. And I don't think we've actually gone below nine for the last five weeks

So it goes 888-999-99. Three eights, five nines. What will Monday the 21st of September be

One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. Number nine. The ninth week of the Burnham Optimism Barometer

Send me your vote now. It's 10.32. Dominic Ellis has your headlines

James O'Brien on LBC. 35 is the time. This is probably a bit of a pet subject, but, you know, how do we incubate an idea in this country

the idea that a tourist tax is a bad thing? Answer, by allowing very wealthy people to write the national narrative about all taxes being a bad thing

So even if you're living in a place that's going to benefit from a tourist tax

you are easily persuaded that you should be against it because tax equals bad

Just never stop to work out or remind yourself what it is that taxes pay for

And my best example of that in the last few days would be the reverence displayed even by the BBC to this Jim Ratcliffe character who owns a chunk of Manchester United

And now they're doing well. Who owns a chunk of Manchester United

He is a tax exile. He's a Brexit-supporting tax exile who is quite spectacularly ignorant of the most easily accessible facts regarding immigration

over the last couple of years and also over the last 30 years

because last time he poked his head above the parapet and ended up having to apologise

He displayed ignorance of immigration figures that was frankly spectacular. He could be on the front bench of Nigel Farage's party

with that level of not knowing or understanding things. And yet, because he's very rich, we all press pause

Even the BBC stops to treat him like some sort of sage. And I think it's part of the same process

Who is most passionately opposed to tax rises? are very, very rich people

Because for the rest of us, we can see that we are more likely

or our children are more likely to be, net recipients of civilization

As in if you, for example, get very poorly, you need to be looked after

You might not have paid in as much as you're going to be able to take out, potentially

But if you're very, very rich, and you're built a certain way, you find it obnoxious

that your money is used to pay for things that you're never going to need or benefit from yourself

And of course, just don't mention the fact that your entire workforce was educated

at the expense of the state. Your entire workforce comes to and from work

using infrastructure that was paid for by the state or by the taxpayer, by every taxpayer

If any of your workforce gets ill, it is the taxpayer that will pay for them to be looked after

So whoever makes the most money from a business should be paying absolutely the most tax by a country mile

Not even sure you should be allowed to move into exile while still employing a workforce in this country

because then you're putting yourself on a more reasonable tax footing than your poorest paid employee

10.38 is the time. Flows in Brighton to steer us back to the question of what it's like to live in a place permanently

that the rest of us only ever visit and what that experience does to your attitude

regarding a so-called tourist tax. Flo, what would you like to say? Good morning, James. How are you

Very well, Flo. I'm enjoying this conversation. Good. I'm coming from... I work in two different industries

I'm actually going to kind of come from both perspectives. Yeah. So, number one, as I have sort of discussed with you a little bit before

I do marine. That's kind of my main... job. So I live very near the

seafront. And for me, the first thing that comes to mind is the amount of litter

that's left on Brighton Beach after the tourists have been and gone. And when

they're here, you know, we have local groups who organise, for example

we'll do silent disco beach cleans. Anything we can to support the local council in getting the bins emptied

you know, stopping the litter from going into the sea. That all costs money, like loads and loads of money

You know, the bins are full to the brim every summer and it actually affects a lot of people

a lot of locals going to the beach because we found it quite depressing I can imagine, yes

That's a really big one that I would say I would also say that, you know, again with the environmental

thing, I volunteer with a lot of local wildlife charities, even down to

there's higher numbers of like gulls that need rescuing because tourists come

down, obviously you're going to have higher concentration of people interacting with the animals

even down to the marine traffic when people go on the jet skis off the coast

it collides with, you know, some of our dolphins there's a higher concentration of interaction in a negative way in that regard

And then the other industry they're working, I work in hospitality, I work in pubs in the evening

So, you know, more stag parties, we're going to have more drunken people we've got to deal with

you know, that's going to affect the local Royal Suspect Hospital, the NHS, more people getting hurt

And also with a woman, I have more negative interactions with a lot of the out-of-towners

who can be a little bit sexist, sexual harassment, we have to ring local security groups

local police, you know, it all kind of piles up. I mean, this is really, really interesting and

important and the list is growing longer of all the things that the rest of us don't even register

when we're visiting somewhere that you have to put up with permanently. By way of mild pushback

I suppose I have to point out that, you know, you knew what you were signing up for in large part

I'm always reminded of the Americans flying into Heathrow and reportedly asking why they built

Windsor Castle so near the airport, you knew what you were doing when you... Oh well listen

I'm not saying it as though I'm kind of bitter or resentful about that. Exactly, no, and you're not

sounding that at all. Of course not, and they push the money into the local economy, and no one's

denying that, but there is a frustration sometimes, I think, because there's

often a disconnect, you know, the people who come down drunkenly with their mates

and would have no qualms with buying a pint at a seafront bar

and then chucking a plastic pint onto the beach. There's a disconnect between the

people who are visiting and the people who that far home, you know, that's where we walk our dogs

And this would be, I mean, just the bins. If we just focused on the bins and the idea that

things that are being done by volunteers who are, by definition, going

to be permanent residents rather than visitors. Very few people go on holiday

and sign up for a litter picking Sunday afternoon. And that would be one of the things that a

wise council would be able to redirect funds to, however they were raised

You'd be able to, and again, that affects you much more than the people who come in and leave again, doesn't it

The whole tone of the town for the course of the summer months is determined by the visitors

and then for the rest of the year it's determined by the residents. I think it also, it kind of holds people a little bit accountable

You know, I almost kind of think that there's an awareness that we're bringing to it. If we do put in a tourist tax, you're kind of, it's almost like a little contract, isn't it

Yes. You have agreed that you are going to hold something in a certain esteem or a certain regard

Maybe. That people who just come down on the train, just to come and, you know, get drunk on a weekend with their friends

maybe don't think of. It's why there's a disconnect, why us locals obviously care so much about whether or not

you know, this Christmas... Yeah, I mean, that would be nice. I think you're being a little bit idealistic, in a good way

Because I suspect, you know, I don't know, that when I'm in Greece, for example

I could be paying up to €15 a night during peak season for the tourist tax

I've just never really noticed it. And in the Netherlands, it's 12.5%

In Spain, €1 to €4. I don't know if people are feeling a little bit more minded

to look after the environment that they're staying in as a consequence of paying it

But I'll certainly sign up to your hopes that they will. I can't really see a negative so far, apart from our chum in Hornchurch

who thinks that the cost is prohibitive, which is obviously a lie

He's probably also a Jim Ratcliffe fan. The other thing about Jim Ratcliffe

and the only reason I'm going on about this is because the rest of the media, it was as if the Pope had spoken

in the 17th century this weekend. You shouldn't ever write or talk about Jim Ratcliffe

without reminding everybody that he campaigned for Brexit and then opened a factory in France

because of Brexit. That's the level of genius and patriotism that you're dealing with here

That 4x4 thing he built was supposed to be happening in Bridgend

But it didn't. It happened in France. Why? Because Brexit made manufacturing here

and exporting from here much harder than it was before. Thank you, Flo

Lee's in Prestatin, another holiday destination. Lee, what would you like to say

Good morning, Jim. Oh, hang on. Phone line's gone, Lee. We'll try and sort that out while I talk to Dan

who's in Hannam, as opposed to Dan Hannan, which would be a different proposition entirely

Yeah, please don't acquaint me with him. No, I won't. I think he's still dealing with the fact

that Canada is now seeking sort of affiliation with the European Union

when he was one of the clowns that claimed we'd be able to sign up in something with Canada

and New Zealand to create our own... Anyway, let's not think about him

Carry on, Danny Hannam. One thing on Brighton and Jim... John Radcliffe, is that his name

Yeah, I'm a Brighton and Hove Albion supporter, so having him then beat Manchester United

last week in the EFL was fantastic. The most amazing thing about some of the interviews

I saw at the weekend was him going on about how Andy Burnham should treat the country more like we're treating Manchester United

who just got thumped by Brian and Hove Albion and could only scrape a drawer in the last minute against Fulham yesterday

But we digress, Dan. We'll be talking about Kiddermist the Harriers getting a Neil Mill at Woking

if we carry on like this. I can sync up really, really well with your last call, though

because I grew up near Brighton, a place called Wigglesfield near Hayward Seath

So Brighton was the nearest big seaside town we would go to for shopping and stuff like that

We never really did tourist stuff there, but I do now. because now I live near Bristol

But as a child, my grandparents lived in Minehead. My other lot of grandparents lived in Exmoor

Dalberton, the place it was called. So always full of tourists, both places

And I went to university and have lived in and around Bath

for the last 30 years. Okay. So I think a tourist tax would be excellent

for all of those places. Mostly, and I think about it this way

If you go to any of the small villages or towns around Bath

Midsummer, Norton, Radstock, places like that, they're actually some of the most deprived places in the country

right next to one of the most affluent cities in the country. And things like cost of living is really impacting those places

money for schools and things like that, they just don't have it

Plus, on top of the same situation that Brighton has in terms of rubbish being cleared up after tourists have been in the city

it can be quite problematic. So we have seagull problems, even though we're not relatively

coastal and that needs to be sorted out But it rammed pretty much all year round The only time really when it quiet is the winter months so October through to February But it always busy regardless of whether it summer or not

There's always people coming to the baths, there's always people taking the water, there's always people going in and out of the posh hotels, whatever time of year it is

I mean, if you were to put it into simplest terms, I mean, straightforward wear and tear

Just straightforward wear and tear. All being paid for by the permanent residents

as opposed to by the visitors who will be contributing over the course of the summer months

They'll be contributing more to the wear and tear. It's a miracle it's never existed before

I forgot to reveal, Dan, do you want to have a guess at what city introduced one three years ago

Well, I'm thinking it was Bath. No, it was Manchester. Maybe Bath did as well

But yeah, Manchester did it. There was no big fuss. Andy Burnham was the mayor. I wonder what happened to him

And he introduced a little tax. £1 a night if you're staying in a hotel

designed to raise £3 million. It's not like megabucks, but it'll make a difference

in some of the areas that we've identified here. And I don't know why

There's a sort of invitation from the Daily Mail and all the rest of them to be up in arms about this

They appeal, of course, to stupid people. Here's a stupid person. It's another tax on the poor

But no, you can't see a downside. It's more expensive to go on holiday in this country

than it is to go on holiday abroad, I think, isn't it? Well, we haven't had a holiday abroad in a couple of years

because of, well, we were due to go honeymooning in Jamaica last year

but because of the hurricane, we couldn't go. So we're now getting married in Bath and honeymooning in Greece next year

which I'm sure Thessalonica, I think, we're going to. A beautiful Thessaloniki, a beautiful part of the country

You'll have a wonderful time. I've never been to Greece. I've been to Cyprus, but I've never been to Greece

You'll have a lovely treat. And I think, generally speaking, it is more expensive

To do a fortnight's holiday in a hotel in this country, in a fancy hotel like the Imperial Hotel in Exmouth

which was certainly fancy when I stayed there as a kid, I think that's going to cost you more than a comparable holiday abroad

So the idea that this is a tax on the poor is just stupid. And I don't... Well, I do like using that word, I can't lie to you

but I don't like using it too often or unfairly. But if you think that this is somehow a tax on the poor who can afford to holiday in Brighton or can afford to holiday in the gentrified market but can't afford to go to Magaluf, then you're a Muppet

And you're either deliberately being obtuse and stupid or you're too stupid to realise how stupid you are

James O'Brien on LBC. It is 10.52. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC

Bill's been in touch. He says, I went to Frankfurt at the weekend. Awful city. Hated it

Didn't mind the four euro tourist tax though. There you go. Bill has spoken like that

I hadn't thought about the sewage. Had you? I hadn't thought about the..

I mean, I don't need to spell it out, do I? But the burden placed upon holiday destinations

by thousands and thousands of people coming in for the duration of the holiday season

and doing what humans do in the places where humans are most likely to do it

and the impact that that will have upon the system. Keith puts it well

Not that one, a different one. He says, I live in Cornwall. You've got ghost B&B villages out of season

You've got lanes impassable in summer, so you go from deserted to undriveable

Water and sewage all maxed out for the duration of the summer, and if friends and family want to visit

they have to pay more to use the B&Bs. The issue that gets locals most is high utility costs

It's an absolute no-brainer when you think about it, And you should welcome the chance to contribute to the coffers of the place where you're visiting

Shouldn't you, really? I mean, I like Flo in Brighton's theory that it would make us a little bit more responsible as well

But just even if it weren't to improve your behavior, the idea that here you are

it's like a tip to everybody that lives there. Thank you. Thank you for keeping this place spick and span all year round

so that when people like me tool in for a quick visit, we can have a lovely time

Here's £1.30 on my hotel bill per person per night. So, you know, what's that

£5.20 if there's four of you per night. I don't see... I'm sorry

So far, I don't see a downside. I don't even see, really

why 70% of businesses in this Welsh town were opposed to it

except that less money to spend in your shop, maybe, which I sympathise with

but not enough to undo the overall observation that this is a good thing in every observable way

I've got the results of the Burnham Optimism Barometer for you in a minute and I've got Simon Marks dropping by at 11.45 with a lot to get through

I wonder if we should get him in even earlier. Or we could just ignore the news, I suppose

I never get into trouble for doing that. Lee is in Prestatin on a phone line that allows him to sound at least vaguely human

Lee, what would you like to say? Good morning, James. How are you? Very well, mate. What's on your mind

I'm a first-time caller, a long-time listener. Living in Pristatin, it's a very, very busy town from roughly April

It's gone again. It's gone again. It's clicking again. I'm not going to get cross with anyone about it

It's just natural. It's just unfair, isn't it? Poor old Lee. First-time caller. Gets on

Bin him off once, because the phone line's awful, and then I'm going to have to bin him off again

I'll give him one more go if we've got time, because I want to go to Cornwall next. Steve's there in Newquay to be precise

Steve, what would you like to say? Hi. So, obviously, while we live, you know, the surf capital, we've got..

Is it undisputedly the surf capital of the UK, Newquay, or are you going to cause me..

Is my inbox now going to fill up with people saying, hang on a minute? Well, good luck to them

It is undisputed. Yeah, we've got all the beaches. We've got all the..

The surf infrastructure, the businesses are all based here. Surfboard manufacturers are all here

Is it? Yeah, great. But one thing I was going to say

it's much better. I'm on the council, the local town council, and we've been preaching for this

but we're trying to use the phrase visitor levy. Rather than tourist tax

Yeah, you're absolutely right. Words matter. It freaks out the Daily Mail type. Yeah, you're right

And then people aren't so worried about it. A visitor levy. Yeah, you know. Yeah, I mean, we've knew key

Have you just got in? Have you been out surfing this morning? I wish

Well, you sound a bit out of breath, Steve, that's all. I don't know, maybe you always sound like that

Or maybe it's the excitement of talking to me. I'm actually in the middle of doing an Airbnb changeover

There you go. There you go. Ah! Ah! Ah! Go on, tell me more about why levies are welcome in Newquay

for both councillors and Airbnb owners. Well, basically, a lot of the services in town

are the prices picked up by the taxpayers. I mean, so from the tourist, from the town council precept, we've run 14 toilets, public toilets, and realistically, the locals hardly ever use them

But they cost, we charge 50p a visit, but they cost the taxpayers about £1,000 a day

Really? Just to keep them going. How? How does that work? Well, there's the staff to clean it, there's all the bills, there's..

Are you serious To be honest it a bit more than that Per day for a public convenience What for all of them put together 14 Oh sorry okay I thought you meant for one

I thought, I think I was going to say, I'll do it myself. I'll do it myself for 500. You know, it would cover that straight away

and that would tell the burden off the taxpayers. Yes. I mean, things like just how the town looks

I know, I think the caller from Brighton was saying about the, you know, perception of the town

The town's pretty good, I mean, it's great, and we've got a lot of beach cleans and we're pretty good with our bins being cleared

But there's things like weeds on the side of the road. Yes. I mean, we had, without going into history too much

formal council, obviously, like most councils, got stripped by austerity. So if it wasn't a mandatory service

they just went, oh, we won't do it anymore. Yeah. And then to control the weeds, which they have to do

they were using glyphosate. We're obviously a green council. We don't want carcinogenic exercise everywhere

so we've stopped them using that and now as did all of cornwall and now obviously they have to do

it manually it doesn't get done as much so you could then add some extra resources get some

extra people in to do more weed control so the town looks better on top of the stuff that um

they were talking about like the pressure on the hospitals and the police but the pressure we get

obviously is uh the lifeguards on all our beaches yes have to work harder and they're paid for

Well, they work for the RNLI. A lot of that's covered by council tax

so you'd need... It'd be good to have more lifeguards. It would just be such a good idea

And if it's a small amount, I think Edinburgh went in at 5%

which is a bit... I'm not sure. If you did, like, 2%, and I do think it needs to be a percentage of the cost

because then it's progressive. Rather than a flat fee, because if you're staying at the best hotel in town

you should probably be paying a little bit more than if you're staying on a... Well, not a campsite

That will be less anyway. Yeah. I mean, we've just got a... Just a big five-star, really cool, swanky hotel's opened up

And the penthouse there should probably be saying the percentage of that rather than if you're staying in one of the out-of-town holiday camps

So I think a progressive, small-ish. And if you think 100,000 visitors, that would raise an awful lot of money pretty quick

And it would be like all levies. It would be about how transparently and wisely the money was then spent

which is an Andy Burnham thing, isn't it? Is it giving more power to other institutions

not national, not just Westminster, to decide how much is paid. Edinburgh brought it in in July of this year, I think

and you are looking at 5% added to the cost of paid overnight accommodation

So it would go up according to how much you were spending

And it's only charged for the first five nights of a stay as well

And it has applied all year round. And it's just overnight. There's nothing on food, drinks, parking or transport

But as Steve just explained, you would expect many of those things, particularly parking and transport, to improve as a consequence of having a little bit of money

And talking of Andy Burnham, the results are in. I've had a bit of a quibble this week

Someone has suggested that our methodology might be wrong. I'm just going to have to make some inquiries before I reveal the results after the news

James O'Brien on LBC. It is four minutes after 11. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

where we turn our attention next to an altogether more serious matter

and the comments by Bridget Philipson at the weekend about women in society being unsafe

I mean, even after all these years, I find it extraordinary how big the gulf is here between men and women

And I'm talking about most men and most women. I'm never talking about all men and all women, obviously

But, I mean, in case you don't know, I live in a... I'm the only boy in our house

I'm the only man male in our household, apart from a spayed cat, but I don't think he counts

So I've been on something of a crash course in recent years as my daughters became older

But even before that, as a consequence, A, of doing this job

and B, of being married to a woman who cares deeply about these issues

The simple daily experience of being a woman in Britain, it seems to be alien to a huge number or a huge proportion of men

I heard a government minister talking to Nick earlier about walking home from the railway station with her keys in her hand

And I now inhabit an intellectual space where that is utterly unsurprising to me

That is completely normal. but there are also people who think that that's some sort of excess

So it's in the news. Oh, I'll give you the Burnham result, shall I, quickly while I remember

It's another nine. It's another nine. So we've had three eights now and six nines

If you're voting like one every week and you're cross that your vote isn't making any difference

it is because it would be even higher if you weren't voting one. So it's the mode, not the mean or the median

The mode, some disputing over our methodology, but we're doing the mode

and it is for the sixth week in succession, the optimism barometer for Andy Burnham is a nine

And the numbers are going up. The number of people actually getting involved is going up

not down, which has taken me by surprise. But there it is, this week's Bob, this week's Burnham Optimism Barometer is a nine

Bridget Philipson, in response to a letter from women living near Piddington

has simply commented upon the fact that all women are unsafe in society

The statistic that resonates the most with me is probably the proportion of people arrested at the Farage riots

who turned out to have come to the attention of the authorities in the past for domestic abuse

So, statistically, it was probably the case at many of those so-called protests

that the men outside, waving banners or wearing masks, were statistically more likely

to pose a threat to women than the men inside the actual repurposed hotels

Which is why, again, last week when we turned our attention to this issue, the issue of men's behaviour

men's behaviour, is at the heart of this as opposed to anything

that you might describe as ethnic or cultural. because what we don't want to admit is that we have a cultural problem here, do we

What we don't want to admit is that there must be something wrong with our culture if between 43 and 45% of female victims of rape

female survivors of rape in England and Wales, 43 to 45% of them report that it's their current or ex-partner

It's a mad conversation, right, about our cultural attitudes, and we don't want these men coming here with their cultural attitudes

when almost half of the women raped in this country report that they were raped by their current or their ex-partner

Another 38% report that it's a friend or an acquaintance or a date

And 11% to 24%, depending on the specific survey group, report that it's a family member

Only 15%, and it's a horrible statistic, but, I mean, it's an arresting figure of female victims

report that it was a stranger. some of the numbers you can pin this down but if you talk to Rape Crisis England and Wales 97 of women who contact that organisation and others like it say that they knew their attacker

It's not really a statistic that supports the idea that we've suddenly discovered a deep desire to protect our women

hashtag save our girls, is it? These are statistics. These are numbers

Something very different going on, I think, than what perhaps some of the rhetoric would allow

But what I think I want to talk about, or what I want you to talk to me about

is some comments that Bridget Phillipson made yesterday on the BBC when she simply said

women are right to be fearful in society more widely about the attitudes and the normalisation of attitudes towards women

and violence against women. Bridget Phillipson said, I hoped that we had made more progress on this

and I hoped that we had put it behind us. The reality is, of course, most women who experience violence in our country

experience it from a partner or a former partner. And many women lose their lives to that violence

but that's the end point. And she talks about the starting point

and that's what I think we should talk about today. Some of the harmful and toxic and terrible attitudes

that women are experiencing and are exposed to. And that's why, she added

it has to be all of us pulling together to take action. And one of the great mysteries

of my time on the radio has always been the way in which

men don't know. And why men don't know about the normal experiences of women

because we've all got women in our lives. You know, we've all got mums

or partners, if you're heterosexual or sisters or female friends and colleagues

and the daily experience, the quotidian experience of a woman in our society

is in some contexts one of, I don't even want to say fear

but expecting trouble, expecting harassment in ways that men often can't even conceive, I think

The idea that you are wary of public transport at any time of day, right

a man can't get his head around that not not in a million years walking home a pal of mine um

got mugged a couple of years ago and i remember thinking crikey that's uh you know that that's

awful and and where were you and what time was it and all of these things and it was so extraordinary

whereas for a woman that fear of threat you never walk around as a bloke really expecting trouble or

fearing a threat. Whereas for women, you live your life very often, not in fear, although if it is in

fear, I'm not here to criticise or correct you, God forbid, but in expectation of trouble. And that's

why when Bridget Phillipson talks about the starting point as opposed to the end point, she is

addressing something that, particularly in the context of the conversations that I had about

refugees and asylum seekers, it's almost surreal how little attention is paid to the issues that

she's talking about. The reasons why women walk home from the railway station with a set of keys

in their hand. The reason why you would much rather do so in company or do so in a better

illuminated circumstances, I want to do this, and it's a really tricky one, this, because

of what I'm describing. Why are men not more aware of the daily sense of unsafety that

women live with? But I worry that's mansplaining, or it's, what's the opposite of man, not

woman's play. It's like, I'm making men the centre of the story

Which is part of the problem that I'm trying to articulate. Why are men not more aware of what Bridget

Philipson is saying? The men who will not engage in this sort of behaviour, why are we

so often ignorant of what women go through? But that is centring men at the heart of the story

So that is not, that's not the way to do this. I think the way to do this is simply

to examine is it the first time you faced some of these things being harassed on the street

sexual intimidation or even sexual assault at gigs talking about young girls in our schools

being exposed to harmful language all of these things Bridget Phillipson is saying have to change

sadly all of us as women in society are unsafe that is the culture that we have right now and

I don't think women need to hear this because you live with it and you know it

And if we start addressing it through the lens of what men need to hear and what men need to know

we are centering ourselves in a story about women. So I don't know what to do in the context of this conversation

except collect your experiences in a way that might be helpful to people who..

what's the word that I want? Who don't understand or who are sceptical

And that could be a man or a woman, but in the context of this conversation

I think we'll do it like this. Let's just do the last time it happened to you

Yeah? The last time it happened to you. So, when was the last time that you were intimidated, assaulted abused

or simply harassed by a man you didn't know in Britain in 2026

when is the last time it happened to you and don't I mean I promise I'll do my best to be sensitive

you know I will and I will probably succeed but I don't want you to hold back

on the grounds that it's commonplace or normal because that's what I'm trying to

articulate and I'm not doing a very good job of it because I suddenly became aware halfway through this introduction

that I was centering men in your story. I don't want you to hold back on the grounds

that it's commonplace or normal because that's the whole point about a conversation like this

0345 60 60 973 is the number you need. If you are, I mean

I mean, the figures are chilling, but the conversation assumes a very different flavor

when it's about asylum seekers or something like that. And the word that these people reach for

when they're very keen not to seem racist is culture. So let's talk about our culture

And let's talk about our culture by examining the last time that you, in public

were made to feel uncomfortable or worse by a man, all right

And if you hit those numbers now, you will get through. Obviously

I mean, obviously I'm playing with recency bias. Aren't I? But I suspect there will be a significant number of people listening

a significant number of women listening, who have had a very recent experience

And in a way, the more recent it is, the more helpful it is to our cause, to our purposes this morning

But it's not, by any stretch of the imagination, a disqualifying factor

It doesn't really matter when it was. But a national task force aimed at tackling misogyny across society

was launched by the government yesterday. And one of the things it's going to look at is whether or not violence against women

is being weaponised by anti-immigration rhetoric, to which I can tell them now the answer is yes

if you have a you know a significant number of men turning up for the farage riots outside

repurposed hotels who've got form for domestic abuse then they don't care about protecting our

women they just don't want their women to be abused by anybody but themselves you're looking

at a particularly toxic outlook you want to talk about cultural differences then you need to talk

about what happens on the streets of our country in the towns where there are not asylum processing

centres about to open. Normal behaviour. And I'm not centring men in this, but men are the problem

So it would be stupid to try to conduct this conversation without nodding towards that

It's even the case sometimes that men have no idea that what they're doing is discomforting

you or upsetting you or disturbing you. They're, in some ways, at the lowest level of what Bridget Phillipson is talking about

when she talks about the starting point. It's almost before the starting point

You know, I remember the first time a friend explained to me why it upset her so much or annoyed her so much

when men told her to cheer up or smile. You never do that to a bloke

So automatically there's a sexual subtext. If I'm sitting, and I obviously have a resting, miserable git face

if I'm sitting on a bench in the park looking a bit miserable or distracted, No man is ever going to walk past me and go

cheer up, love, or cheer up, chuckles. It's never going to happen. So it's automatically moving into a place of inappropriateness

And yet that man has no idea really, or does he? I don't know

You can disagree with anything I say on this programme. You know that by now. But I worry, and I've worried for some time

and particularly when you see the calibre of character that is leading these so-called protests

these fascist embryonic pogroms. You know that these are not men who give a hoot about the welfare of women

either strangers or the women in their own life. You know they are, pretending to care

or they're motivated by something even uglier, which is a fear that some incomers might be doing the things

that they think only they should have the right to do. And yet we never talk about our culture

a culture where um 83 to 85 percent of female rape survivors and remember that's the end point

not the starting point report that they're assaulted by someone they know so when is the

last time what is the last thing and and remember we're talking about starting points as well as

ending points. So the appearance in public of harmful, toxic, terrible attitudes

may not involve any physical threat whatsoever, or you may have felt a physical

threat, but that's what I want to do. The last time it happened to you

0345 6060 973. It's 11.19. James O'Brien on LBC. It is 21 minutes after 11, and this

is a conversation about misogynistic culture in our country. And it doesn't matter

what the colour, ethnicity, country of origin or religion of the man involved

is. It's a conversation about men. And we don't have it often enough

But we'll try to have it now. Jackie's in Green Hamilton in North Yorkshire. Jackie, what made you pick

up the phone? Hiya, James. Thank you for having me on. You're very welcome. So, yeah, I had an

experience back in April. Now, two years ago, I had breast cancer

and I had a mastectomy. Just a single mastectomy, just one. and I'd lived for about 18 months with one breast

And I was just preparing to have my second breast removed in June, and I was in the gym in April

And I wasn't wearing my prosthesis at that time, so I had one breast, and it was very obvious that I just had one

I wasn't wearing my prosthesis because it was too uncomfortable to work out in the gym, and I was working really hard

trying to prep myself for my not surgery. And this chap in his mid-60s just kept looking across at me

kept looking across at me, and eventually sort of came over to me and said

um i mean his first words are what yeah you've only got one boob which was the first it was his

first words to me and i was a little bit disconcerted and didn't quite know what to

make of it and i said yeah and he said well he said what you're doing in the gym i said well

i'm in the gym i'm having the other one off soon so he just caught me unawares and i didn't know

really what else to say and he said well he said right you know he said he said he felt he had the

right to talk to me about what my situation was, why I only had one breath, why I was in the gym

and working out. And he spent sort of the next hours I was working out. I eventually just said

I'm not talking to you anymore, and put my earphones in and carried on. And then he spent the next hour

just constantly looking across at me every time I was doing sort of arm raises across my head or

anything like that. But the strangest thing, James, is I've had my second breath off now. I had that off

in June. Right. And I feel completely liberated and 100% safer without them. I mean

I'm 56 now. As a young woman, I was raped. I was assaulted. I was assaulted on a train

Some man stuck his hand down my shirt. My whole life has been about

my rest. The way you say that is what I was trying. As a

man, I can't do what you just did. The way you said it then was just as

if you were almost going through your shopping list. I would have been like that, though

James. Because, I mean, I could I could lift off dozens of assaults. I mean, obviously, the rape one was very significant at 17

And someone who was known to you. But many, many others over the years. And, you know, I think without my breasts now

I feel safer. I feel much more liberated. I feel more confident

Good Lord. And I don't feel I'm in the eyes of anybody

that I need to worry about because I haven't got them anymore. The male gaze

Yeah, absolutely. And I always had large breasts. I mean, they were always front and centre

If you pardon the pun. But that's anatomy. That's not an opinion

That's anatomy. Yeah, yeah. Would you have believed that? It's been a very strange time this last three months

It's been very strange without them. It's been a real learning curve. And so you would know that someone was not talking to your eyes

when you were talking to a man. And suddenly that's gone. Yeah, absolutely

Absolutely. Would you have known 20 years ago? If I'd said to you 20 years ago

if you were ever to have your breasts removed, you would actually feel liberated and empowered

I mean, you know, as a young woman, I always hated my breasts because they were the bane of my life

You know, they were the cause of so many problems in my life. So I always hated them

And I would always say, you know, I always said, you know, if anything ever happens, I'll have them both taken off

Right. And as it turns out, that's what happens. And, you know, I had no..

I felt terribly strange with one breath. I mean, I felt like a bit like an inverted hunchback

It was awful I didn know what to do with myself So the other one had to come off And in terms of the decision I made was it the right one At this point three months on I can say 100 certainty absolutely the right one

I want to ask you a question. Please do. I will, but I need to, and obviously this is also anatomy, I am a man

and I don't want it to I mean I certainly not worried about victim blaming

or anything like that but I just want you to tell me a little more

about why that man in the gym was so out of I mean the phrase I wanted to

use was what was his problem do you think I mean I think it was because I didn't

look like a woman, I didn't look like an ordinary woman I didn't look like his expectation

of a woman in the gym I was doing something It's the same

It's the same thing I should have been wearing my prosthesis No, he thinks he's got the right

to talk to you about your body So whether he is, for want of a better word

whether he is ogling your boobs or making inappropriate comments about them

in a lascivious and lecherous fashion or whether he's marching up to you on a treadmill and pointing out

that you've only got one, you should have pretended not to know Jackie Do you know what, he completely threw me

It was so unexpected. But it's the point. That's the bit I was missing. I was trying to understand why it's in the same space

as the more obvious examples of harassment. And it's his... He thinks he's got the right to have that conversation with you

Yeah. I mean, no woman in the gym would have come up and said that to me. Of course not. Unless it was someone else who'd been through it

and was possibly tentatively reaching out for a conversation about mutual support

Yeah. Oh, wow. And there it is, liberated by a double mastectomy

And yet, the way you've told that, it's impossible to be confused by it

it's absolutely crystal clear why you feel the way that you feel

and so far as we know are we out of the woods now yes, no evidence of disease

and just hoping it doesn't come back and we can just carry on living

and we'll live flat fested and hopefully that will continue to feel good

and Chummo in the gym I don't know, maybe he'll say but there it is

I needed your help there. Thank you for being patient. I did complain about it

Good. What happened when you complained about it? Well, to be fair, I stayed away from the gym for a few weeks afterwards

I'm sorry to hear that. I was quite disconcerted. Yes, of course. And then I've had my surgery, and I'm only literally just allowed back in the gym now in September

Right. So I'm just about to start there. I'm literally heading into the gym now

and you're sort of heading to my gym. And then this came on the radio

and I thought, oh, my God, it just seems the right time to ring in. Well, have fun in the gym today

and I'd like to know whether they've done anything about that because that man should not really be allowed to speak to anybody

in the gym ever again, and good luck with it. And everyone else now will be rooting for you too

And thank you for being patient with me because I needed a bit of help there

because I'm sort of thinking, well, he might go through in your head

well, he might be neurodiverse, he might not be very good in company. Why is what he's doing when it doesn't seem to have a sexual subtext

Why is it so? I knew it was, I just couldn't, and then I worked it out while I was talking to Jackie

It just sort of slotted into place. He thinks he's got the right to talk about her breasts

so it doesn't matter whether he is being lascivious or lecherous or matter-of-fact about it

You just don't do that. You just don't do that. Another example of our cultural problems in this country. Thank you, Jackie

Becky's in Brighton. Becky, what would you like to say? Hi, James. So I'm coming to this from two different angles

The first angle is that I work in a very male-dominated industry

I sell yuckshree yachts, and I attend a lot of boat shows

And I actually thought about dyeing my hair grey at one point

because I constantly, I'm very technically aware, obviously I've been doing this for a living for 20 years

and I've always come up against men who just assume I'm the model

or I'm somebody who's sat there and doesn't know anything about the boat. I've been through a lot of the same things that Jackie has

and God bless herself, I hope that she's fine and happy in the past

But you've just done the same thing? You've just very... And I don't know if I should keep picking up on this

You tell me, actually, Becky. But you and Jackie have both, obviously, been through some terrible things at the hands of men

and yet you just sort of... You just... I think, James, it's partly an age thing

but my most recent experience about six weeks ago was at a boat show, and I'm showing a couple around a boat

very, you know, 60-foot luxury catamaran, and I'm explaining all of the context

and the engineering that goes into it, and this man just stops me and says, oh, can I stop, can I stop

He said, as a girl, how do you know all this? As a girl

And I literally had to sit there for a second and choke back all of this years and years of diminishment

how I've been made to feel all of the time. You know, I devote my entire life to this

and I just thought normally well not normally but when I was younger I'd have just

choked something back and sort of laughed it off he meant it as a compliment, that's the bit and I said

I thought no do you know what, I'm not going to let this go and I said well do you know what, having a vagina

never stopped me never stopped me from being able to sail sir, that says no

it's never stopped me, in fact it's meant that I don't have all these bits down below

that some of you men have that might get tangled up in the ropes, you know, if you're using a winch

and something gets wrapped around there. So actually, I think I'm a little bit safer. And I literally said that

and I posted it on my socials afterwards. And one of the most respected agents

international agents in the world, in my area, came on and said

Viva la vulva. He said, I had no idea this was happening to you, Becky. I had no idea

And I said, you know what? It's become so commonplace. But the other way that I've got into this

I know you're probably running out of time, but the other way is... No, you feel your boot. I'm not arguing with you. I've got an eight-year-old daughter

I've had two older stepdaughters, and I bought them that Laura, I can't remember her name

the everyday sexism book when they were quite young. But my daughter's now eight

approaching nine, and her body's starting to change. But she's the most confident, sassy

She doesn't know the difference between her and a boy at the moment. Sure

Right? And I'm going to have to sit down and have the, you know, development sort of conversation with her

about menstruation and everything. I'm terrified. because I don't want her to lose the confidence that she's got at the moment

And yet you have to prepare her for the world that you inhabit

And when I have to explain to her the fact that her body will be different and there will be vulnerabilities to her

I'm really putting it off. And that is the thing for me

that if Bridget Phillipson could get that changed, I would be over the moon

I hear you. Laura Bates, you're talking about. the everyday sexism. She's been on full disclosure as well

if people want to introduce themselves to her work. Final question, because you mentioned your daughter

I wouldn't have asked otherwise. Do you think things are better now or worse than they were

when you were her age? I think they're worse. I think they're worse because back then

you know, we had the Spice Girls, All Saints, you know that Laddeque culture that people kind of looked down upon But girls were kind of band together and you know it never really mattered what you looked like And that when I first started working in the marine world getting mistaken for a model or whatever not knowing anything

I was so shocked. I thought, no, but I've always been bright and I've always been intelligent

I've always been able to hold my own. But these days, these girls, they are constantly having to compare themselves

to other people online. And I think that there's a big bit of work that we need to do

And then, of course, they've made misogyny profitable as well, online as well, with people like Andrew Tate and the rest of them

So that is new, and that is not something that you had to face when you were your daughter's age

Gosh, thank you. Oh, hang on, how did the bloke respond? The bloke who made the comment? Do you know what he did

What? He was shocked, he smiled, and at the end, my dad had been visiting the show

and I'd mentioned that he was there. He chased my dad down the pontoon to tell me that I was a credit to him

that is another microaggression I know it is, why is he telling your dad that

Yep, yep A credit to you sir Yes, yes He's only about 50 this guy

if he'd have been sort of 80 or something I'd have probably gone oh okay

but that's why I posted it publicly for people to see and I don't normally go down that route

No I hear you well there you go and again some people listening will struggle to understand why

choosing to offer the compliment to your father as if Becky's wherewithal

or Becky's skills and attributes, Becky's behaviour in that moment, it's dehumanising, isn't it

And yet, it's what I think Bridget Philipson means when she talks about the starting points

as opposed to the end points. And of course, I am obliged to point out

that whenever I mention Andrew Tate, I have to also add a very important voice for men

according to Nigel Farage. and of course we're talking about misogyny women were being beaten up at his party conference

just a couple of weekends ago it's 11.34, phone lines are still open

Dominic Ellis has your headlines 11.37 is the time and I am very conscious of being a bloke

as we conduct this conversation and it is relevant to events in Piddington

last week and of course elsewhere and the national narrative of fear

of men if they're refugees or asylum seekers. And yet, surely all of the women marching on these marches must know

what life is like in Britain in 2026 at the hands or in receipts of comments from men who are neither

asylum seekers nor refugees. It's really strange, isn't it? It's really strange. And I don't know

how to handle that. I think I've done it okay, but I'm always open to improvement. I don't know

how to handle the fact that when women come on this program and talk about terrible things that

have happened to that men have done to them, usually men known to them, remember, they do it

in such a matter of fact manner. And I don't know if it's right for me to pick up on it, to point it

out. I just don't know. I just don't know. And in the context of things that other men don't know

I can live with that. Some men don't know that you shouldn't march up to a woman in a gym

who's just had a single mastectomy and comment upon the fact that she's only got one breast

Some men don't know that it is not acceptable to... So you see what I mean, but I don't know

Rhys in Twickenham. Rhys, what made you pick up the phone? Hello. Well, basically, when Sarah Everon got murdered

I got angry, really, really angry, and I decided to join the council

and now I've been made the White Ribbon Champion because of... On Richmond Council, is that? Yeah

So you're my third councillor today. Do you know that? Yeah, I have been listening

It's like buses, isn't it? Why are all the councillors listening to this? I don't know whether I should be proud or worried

but I'm distracting you. Carry on with the more important conversation. Oh, I've totally lost my trail of..

No, I know. That's my fault. So we mentioned Sarah Everard. That drew you into it

Well, tell me what a White Ribbon Champion is. Okay, so my role on the council is to champion women and try and stop violence against women and girls

So 20 years ago, opposite where I live now, Amelie Telegrond got murdered on Crick and Green

I don't want to mention his name because I don't think he deserves that. But we also, he attacked a lot of my friends

He murdered Marsha McDonald, Millie Dowler, numerous others that we don't even know about

I saw the White Tent that night and it has stayed with me

and everybody around here for the last 22 years we threw a memorial for

Amelie two years ago and hundreds and hundreds of people came out, we have white carnations

that we gave out to everyone with domestic abuse hotline numbers on

we had a Voices for Hope choir thing we had Colin Sutton

I think his name is, the BC who found the perpetrator. And everybody had a story of where they were that night

They knew exactly what they were doing. And it was, I cried throughout the whole thing

But the reason why I got into politics was because I got, I started to get angry at men in the pub

And I was like, this isn't like channeling, like the right sort of attitude

And then a man threatened to strangle me on the green again. and that was too much

So I decided to go for local counsellor. And, yeah, so now I'm trying to, like, funnel it into good things

and we offer local bystander training. What's that? That's that that would help someone know what to do

if they witness something. Yeah, because if you... I still do it. You see someone on the street being, like, leered at or harassed

or, you know, even violent by a man. Yes. And you freeze up. You don't know what to do

What should people do? there's obviously phone the police if it's really really dangerous yeah if it's something that a

woman just looks like they're uncomfortable and they want to get out of the situation just go oh excuse me have you got the time or where did you get your trainers from it's just

to kind of break up that situation and let a woman and also not just a woman anybody get out

of that situation without putting anyone in danger i mean you'll know this completely even

before you started working in this field, it's a constant underlying sense of threat

that women live with in towns and cities, well, everywhere in this country

When you said, can you name one thing that's happened, I was like, no, so much has happened

Like, every woman has got 100 stories. But the problem is, men need to..

And I don't like the phrase call out, because I think if you call out

it pushes people away, and they won't listen. So we'd like to use the phrase, call them in

And we want to make violence against women and girls as unpopular and as frowned upon as drink driving

used to be kind of okay in the 80s, 90s. Of course it was

When now it's like, nah, we're not having that. In a way, it's..

I think most men would, certainly publicly, regardless of how they behaved in private

most men would condemn violence against women and girls but that's why i found bridget phillipson's

comments so interesting because that is the end of a journey that can begin in outwardly quite well sometimes innocuous seeming moments i think most women would know that they were not innocuous at all but many men would struggle men don know

when a man goes to jog and he jogs up behind you it makes a woman instantly scared yeah because it's

that like present suddenly so if you're a man just cross onto the other side of the street

just think about these things talk to your friends about it don't yell at them just talk to them

about it and be like, you know, we all need to feel safe and, you know

in this world. And just to be clear, when you decided to move into local

politics and work tirelessly to protect women, did you toy with the idea, instead of doing that

and giving up your time, did you toy with the idea instead of buying a balaclava helmet

and just shouting abuse at lampposts? Uh, not really. Okay, because that's

the other option. That's the other option. Or you could go and attack an RNLI station, I suppose

to prove how committed you are to this cause. You could hang flags up around

You could just hang some flags up around the place. Ree, thank you for that, and thank you for what you do

Fascinating stuff. Yeah, I mean, I don't want to sound soppy, but this conversation is absolutely nothing

It's not one of those ones where I can happily fill an entire hour with my own monologue without brilliant calls on a subject like this

There's nothing. There's no conversation. And these are exactly the calls that I needed and that I wanted you to hear

It is 11.45 very nearly. Simon Marks is back in the country and indeed back in the studio after this

James O'Brien on LBC. It is 11.47. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

I think the word I would use is suboptimal. Suboptimal is how I feel in the morning if something has happened

which I feel the need to talk to Simon Marks about, And I say to Eleanor, is Simon around

And Eleanor says, no, he's on holiday. I feel suboptimal. But, of course, you need your holidays, Simon

We all need our holidays, but thank God you're back. I'm optimal. And rested and ready now

Yes. Where do you want to start? I mean, there is so much to go through. Why don't you choose

Well, I think we've got to start with the kicking out of CNN, MS Now, and Politico

You kind of predicted this some time ago, didn't you? It's been a process

It is. And what we're seeing is only the next stage of the plan

I mean, let's be absolutely clear. This is the amuse-bouche for what we're going to see further down the line

He wants a White House press corps that is entirely made up of propagandists and loyalists to his cause

in exactly the same way as he wants a government made up entirely of loyalists and supporters for his cause

and so he has taken action that totally breaches the First Amendment to the American Constitution

that says that no president or American government must do anything to abridge freedom of the press

by showing three of the country's major broadcast and news organizations the door

denying them access to the White House, which is not his house, it is the people's house

and shutting them out. And when I say this is just the continuance of what he's done

I mean, there was all of this ludicrous, I thought, ysis over the weekend by people saying, oh, well, he waited until Caroline Levitt had left to do this

or he decided to take this action while the White House Chief of Staff, Susie Wiles

was out of Washington, D.C. She would have stopped this. There's no indication that either of those women would have stopped this

Because it was on their watch that he banned the Associated Press from pool broadcast operations in the White House

Second term, no one's stopped him doing anything. No one's restrained him from doing anything

And the notion that these people would have provided some kind of restraining influence, I think, is completely laughable

I think we have also to price in to this our response to what we hear from Donald Trump on a daily basis

It is so important to remember that when he appears in front of the cameras, on a continuing basis, a growing proportion of the questions that he is asked are being asked by not reporters, not journalists, but paid propagandists

And that includes many of the times when he is asked, I mean, not quite in these terms, but to all intents and purposes, Mr. President, would you like to take a pop at the UK's prime minister

Because invariably, those questions have been posed to him by propagandists in the room

and as we wait for Andy Burnham's first meeting with President Trump on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly later this week

I think it is very important always to ask yourself, well, he might have taken a popper Andy Burnham in front of the cameras

but under what circumstances, what was the question he was being asked

Under what circumstances was he essentially scaffolded to do that? I think we do have to calibrate our response to a lot of the things that he says

based on the fact that these questions are now being thrown at him not by respected members of the media

adhering to the old-style rules of the media road. They are being asked of him by entirely supportive, pliant propagandists

and that includes questions sometimes that he gets asked about the US-UK relationship

Interesting. And none of it's a coincidence. So for people who don't know, MS Now, CNN and Politico

all denied access to the White House, as you say, joining AP

Can anybody else do anything? Naively, people, maybe it's not naive, suggest that when this happens, everybody should down tools

but then you leave the field completely clear for the propaganda. Yeah, I mean, the White House Correspondents Association

put out a ludicrous statement over the weekend saying that they stand in solidarity

with the reporters who have been denied access. I mean, there is an argument for saying that they should have said

we're going to stand up, pack up and leave and instruct our members to leave the complex

until such time as Politico, MS Now and CNN are allowed back in

But look, I mean, I think it's a bit too late in the day for any of those expected expressions

of solidarity that are muscular in form to amount to a row of beans

It's just the same White House Correspondents Association that allowed him to address the dinner

I mean, after the first one got cancelled because of the attack on it, then the second one that was held just a few weeks ago, and he used it to launch ad hominem attacks against the freedom of the press again

This is not a man who believes in a free press. He hates it

And you've got to remember that where he is now politically is in such a terrible place

He knows, because we all know, that they're definitely the Republicans get to lose control of the House of Representatives in the midterm elections in November

that they are highly likely now also to lose control of the Senate

and therefore he wants to thin the herd even more in that White House briefing room

so that he is not facing deeply uncomfortable questions about the catastrophe of his own political leadership of the Republican Party

It's interesting that you mentioned he wants a press corps that he can completely control

He thought, and I know this isn't on our list actually, he thought he could create a judiciary that he could completely control

But even they now are scuppering some of his plans, prompting him to actually say the quiet part out loud

He says, I don't recognise these guys that I appointed. They're not doing what I... I mean, yeah

And then speaking of things that deserve a little bit more ysis, the announcement with regard to Greenland

I notice it's not on your list because it's just nonsense. Greenland's relationship with NATO and the United States of America

is effectively going to stay exactly as it was before. Exactly the same. But Donald Trump is claiming a massive victory

I mean, a great day for the United States of America. He says that vast arrays of military service members

are going soon to be heading to Greenland. They already were. The Americans have always had the ability to do that

under the agreements that were signed and sealed more than 50 years ago

1951, was it? 52, I think. Early 50s. Early 50s. The 50s

Yeah, the 50s. And the Danes know this. The Danes know. Yeah, but they're playing along

Of course, as you would. Because you do. There you go. Have a biscuit. Absolutely, have a deal. The President of the United States of America

We'll all collude in his delusion. $13 billion of oil cash missing from Venezuela

Well, still $13 billion of oil cash missing from Venezuela and rising because with every

day, the Americans continue to access more Venezuelan oil. and the Trump administration completely stonewalling

Members of Congress stonewalling legal cases that are taking place to try and understand where all this money has gone

absolutely engaged in a policy of total non-cooperation in explaining where this money has gone

And that's just the start. On the plus side, that must, I mean, wherever it's going

the fact that they've got their hands on all of this oil means that oil prices and petrol prices in the States must be plummeting

Well, I mean, this is the key problem that he's got going into the midterm elections

His own war of choice on Iran that he did not need to start waging on February the 28th

has led him down a blind alley, a complete cul-de-sac. So this weekend, motor oil has started being rationed by Costco

one of the country's largest retailers. So you want to get some motor oil

You can only buy one large can of it at a time from Costco and Walmart

the other major big box company, warning its customers that supplies are running short

It is impossible to expect that you can turn around the flood of votes

heading in the directions of the Democratic Party at a time when you are saying to Americans

I'll give you $5,000 each if you vote Republican and you keep the House of Representatives

and the Senate in the hands of the Republican Party oh but by the way at the same time

I'm afraid you can't buy more than one can of motor oil at Costco this weekend those two messages are just

no one believes the first message by the way anyway because he's never going to get the support of Congress

to give everybody $5,000 ahead for those votes so he's and this is why James

he's going to be really dangerous moving forwards. If and when he loses control of one and possibly both houses of Congress

he's not going to be able to get anything done domestically, legislatively

So we're going to see more of this nonsense about demolishing the Kennedy Centre

throwing members of the press out of the White House press corps

It's all going to be offence. Winning Greenland. Going after the Canadians

it's all going to be offensive in two ways. I mean, it's going to be offensive to many of us watching what's taking place

but it's going to be attack, attack, attack, because he knows at home legislatively he's going to be completely stymied

I've seen some tentative attempts to blame the fuel, the oil, the petrol situation

the gasoline situation on Ukraine, but even the sycophants that are trying that, their heart's not really in it

You know, even the biggest mug in the United States of America

isn't going to fall for the idea that the actions of Ukraine against Russia have more to do with the flow of oil to the West

I mean, I'm sure you could make the argument that when Ukraine attacks a Russian oil facility

it's not good for the price of oil, but it pales into insignificance compared to the fact

that the Strait of Hormuz remains closed to most traffic. And unless and until you can get that unblocked

Nobody serious thinks that the price of oil is going to fall. And if Americans are paying, you know, over $4 a gallon at the pumps for petrol

and $6 a gallon now at the pumps for diesel, that's not a winnable election

It's funny, I remember, I always remember, because I didn't quite get it at the time

but I do now when Emily Maitlis went to the States in the run-ups of the last election

and reported back on, it was all about the price at the pumps

And now look what's happened. And so, again, the scale of the tragedy, actually

if you speak from a place of sympathy for the United States of America, is absolutely immense

And then we come probably within the realms of the grand delinquent nonsense

that you've alluded to with the other issues. But, of course, always with Trump, possibly not

a victory arch replete with a sort of... It would be like the Arc de Triomphe with guns poking at the sun

Yeah, bigger than the Arc de Triomphe, of course, and with more gold on it than the Arc de Triomphe, of course

And now, like the ballroom that isn't really a ballroom, remember that White House ballroom the president himself has conceded

is just a shield that is covering a six-story underground military bunker

He announced over the weekend that this Arc de Trump is going to contain ammunition storage facilities

which seems bizarre in the middle of Washington, D.C., although there are some in the middle of New York City, to be fair

but also a sniper's nest. These are the projects that he is going to push forward

past the midterm elections, because it's the only authority and power he's going to have

to try and push these things forward. Court cases will try and halt them

They may or may not succeed. I don't know what they're going to end up doing with the hole in the ground that is the quote-unquote ballroom

in the event that the courts absolutely, completely derail that project. This is where he's going to go

And the ballroom together with the arch and these military facilities that he's building inside them just add to the notion that if you were someone who was determined never to leave power, these are the kind of complexes you would be building to defend yourself while you hold up in the residence at the White House

And whether that, by the way, applies to Donald Trump or to any successive president of the United States

it takes the country down, I think, you know, many people will argue a very, very alarming road

Well, yeah, I mean, and the people who wouldn't argue that probably need their heads examining

Or, of course, they're inside the pen. They're inside the cabal, whether as propagandists or as politicians

And the cabal surrounded, they circled the wagons this weekend on that first issue we talked about

the chucking out of CNN Politico and MSNOW from the White House lying and saying that Joe Biden stopped the uh denied the credentials of what they referred to as 400 independent reporters when

he came into office. That's simply not true. It's a blatant lie. It's not an exaggeration

an embellishment, it's absolute BS. And, uh, again, in the first term, we saw some of this

going on because if you remember when uh we had people uh like kaylee mckenanny yeah uh and sarah

huckabee sanders behind the white house podium they flooded the zone as best they could with

propagandists what we're seeing now puts that into uh into the shade how i'm late for the news so

keep this one very brief how many people because i know that our conversations when they go up on

youtube enjoy extraordinary figures in the united states of america is the american media reporting

this properly? I mean, does it actually call it out as clearly and as concisely as we do

No, no, absolutely. I mean, even the New York Times this weekend had the most extraordinary explanation, headline for a story, saying that some Democrats, in their phraseology

some Democrats were faulting what the President had done as an attack on the free press

Wow. I mean, I couldn't find a Democrat that wasn't faulting what he had done. And the notion

that you have to add that to your headline. But it's a debate. Some people may think this is an attack on the free press. Absolutely

Blatant, blatant steamrollering of America's First Amendment and the accessibility that the media is supposed to have

to the people's house because he doesn't want to be asked difficult questions

Ronald Reagan used to find other ways of doing it, remember? I mean, he would listen to questions being screamed at him

over the rotor blades of the chopper and he'd go, sorry, I can't hear you. But at least they were there screaming the questions

And is it because they are frightened of the consequences of doing their jobs, or is it because they have not yet still found the vocabulary to report upon this extraordinarily dishonest regime

I think there is tremendous hesitation in some quarters simply to tell it the way that it is

And, of course, in other quarters, the businesses that run many of these networks and publications have been taken over by Trump loyalists

including CBS News, including the Washington Post in the form of Jeff Bezos

storied institutions for which there is now no way back. And this is how it has always worked throughout history

but it is still shocking to see it unfolding in the United States of America

Simon Marks, welcome back. It's not quite home, is it? But still, it's nice to see you

Here for a few more weeks, then going back for the midterms. We shall avail ourselves of your brilliance as often as we can

And there it is. and if you are watching this on YouTube, not live

then this is what's happening in the United States of America. I feel like we're in some sort of dystopia

You're having to tune into this to find out what your own media isn't telling you

about what your own president is doing. But we'll carry on. You can be sure of that

It's 12.03. James O'Brien on LBC. It is seven minutes after 12, and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

I've had a bit of a change of heart on a subject that we talked about last week

Can you guess which subject it is? I'll take your suggestions via all the usual means

and I probably will forget to tell you what it was before I go home at 1 o'clock today. But I've had an interesting change of heart on one of the big stories

which we wouldn't normally talk about. I want to talk next about dementia care

and your experience of how inadequate it is, okay? One million people in this country have it

And I'm just doing that. I'm getting that out front now. So that's coming up

But I can't... Sometimes I want to do really, really meta phone-ins

And this strikes terror into the hearts of the production team. Well, I say team

I would like to do a phone-in one day about why my own attempts at doing a phone-in on a given subject

don't work very well. and the subject I'm thinking of is the royal family

I don't think, apart from when we find ourselves in the very lonely position of pointing out

how hideous the treatment of Harry and Meghan is by 99% of the British media

and of course the people who recognise it for the disgusting character assassination and racism that it is

are very relieved to find an outlet where they can share their evidence-based thoughts

apart from on that very specific issue. I don't come off air after we've done a royal phone-in

feeling very fulfilled. And I know that other presenters do better, which obviously is a red rag to a bull

as far as I'm concerned. And I'm fascinated by why that is

But I don't think I can do a phone-in on why my phone-ins don't work, can I

That would be too meta. Keith looking dazed and confused and it's also too self-indulgent really

I mean I could do it with someone else's but that would just be rude wouldn't it

to pick another presenter and say why don't their phone-ins about immigration ever throw up anything interesting

it's just the same old clowns ringing in to say that they've got the solution to it

and wanging on about cultural differences without reflecting upon the... no so I couldn't do that

that would be weird and rude and unprofessional and if I did it to one of my own..

I think it's because you don't think my heart is really in it

And I think I sometimes can communicate that by a form of intellectual osmosis

The idea that if I'm not being authentic, if I'm doing something because it's big in the news

but I haven't actually engaged with it myself, I think you can tell

I really do. And I don't know how you can tell, because I speak the same language

but I don't quite I don't know, something doesn't quite mesh correctly. Oddly enough

I've changed my mind about Earl Spencer on the comments that he made last week and now

because of why and how I've changed my mind, I do care more about

this story than I did on Friday when I tried to set it up as a phone-in and

I don't want to be rude to the people that did ring in you know our phone-ins land in ways

we reach parts with our phone-ins that other phone-ins cannot reach but on some subjects we just don't

and that was one of them so before I go home today remind me

to tell you how and why I've changed my mind about that

story there's a couple of reasons it's important and key among them was the discovery

that he'd sold a bunch of land for about 60 million quid so my argument that it's because he keeps getting divorced

and he needs all the money for alimony was probably wrong that is

for another day I think 11 minutes after 12 is time chris asks are you talking to us now or are you simply trying to

persuade your producer to let you have a phone in about why your phone-ins don't work

yeah um both actually both so that's not what we're going to talk about um i want to talk about

dementia i find it fascinating because i can tell you exactly why i find it fascinating

because I'm frightened of getting it. I think there comes a point a certain age it roughly the same age where you start making noises when you get up Do you know what I mean Have you noticed have you reached that age yet

When you start making noises when you sit down in a chair

You don't, you never find a child going, oh, when they sit down

You'll never find a child, or you'll never find someone in their 20s going, oh, when they get up out of a chair

Or going, ah, when they sit down. And I did it on the tube the other day

I felt like such a Herbert. Sat down on the tube and went, and so it becomes involuntary

I don't know why we do it. It could be one for Mystery Hour. But around the age that you start doing things like that

you start worrying, and I'm not making light of anything here, I promise you

You start worrying that your memory is going and the big spectre, the big fear

is dementia, isn't it? You start noticing that you're struggling to find a word

in a certain context, or you start... I'm a great believer that I've only got a finite amount of brain

for names and faces, and it's full now. So I get introduced to someone new

and if I am going to remember their name and associate it with their face

then I'm going to have to forget someone else that I've known in the past. I've reached full capacity for names and faces

And everyone's capacity is different. So some people have got incredible memories for things like that

I am not one of them. if I get introduced to you later today

if you want me to remember your name and your face I'm going to have to forget somebody else

that I have currently got in my memory banks so the physical side of it is like

when you start oohing and aahing when you get up and down and then the mental side of it

is when you start wondering genuinely whether or not that thing that has just happened

is anything whatsoever to do with dementia and of course it almost certainly isn't

it almost certainly isn't But for one million people in this country at the moment, it was once

It was the early sign of something encroaching. As you know, my mum has been receiving, as you may know

because I've mentioned it to you a couple of times, my mum has been spending quite a lot of time in hospital lately

Touch wood, this week should be a better week than previous weeks. But one thing that I'm absolutely certain of is that her mind is still completely clear

so well into her 80s now and i i think it's a blessing to have somebody of that age in in your

family who is still completely compost mentis as sharp as a tack can't get anything past her

and and she worries obviously at her age that when she can't remember something or she struggles

with a sudoku that it's a sign of something greater when of course it isn't um it that there

will just be a natural decline as the years pass we're almost all past our peak but that is why i

worry about it because i am genuinely frightened of getting it and i'm really frightened of my

wife getting it as well i i mean i would absolutely want to and do my level best to look after her but

i i it's almost as if you you fear losing someone you love right it's the worst thing you can

imagine. I've been thinking about it a lot lately for obvious reasons. But the thing about dementia

that I've always found almost impossible to grasp, because I've never been through it

is the thought of losing someone who's still there. It touched me last week, I don't know if

you saw the clip of Andy Burnham talking to Elizabeth Day on her How to Fail podcast about

his dad and the fact that his dad did not know that he'd become prime minister i found that

almost unbearable to watch in in a in a powerful way not in an unpleasant way obviously and

and and and burnham became visibly emotional and elizabeth is an absolutely brilliant interviewer

that's why her podcast is so popular but he told a story about the the people in the care home

where his dad, of course he lost him last week, that's why it's in my mind

the people in the care home where his dad was being looked after parking him in front of the television

for the coverage of his son's arrival in Downing Street, the walk up Downing Street

And Andy Burnham's dad was so in the grip of dementia that he didn't know anything

but they told him that there was something he smiled he turned away from the screen

and he smiled at them in a way that they hadn't seen him smile in a very long time and so they

said to the prime minister we think and he's told this story himself not betraying any confidences

we think something clicked something clicked imagine being that boy your father is such a seminal influence on you and and most of us will have taken a at least a

large part of our politics from our parents whether it is because we're rebelling against

them or whether it's because they've persuaded us of their own positions over the course of our

lifetimes and your father is proud of you and you've gone into politics and you've achieved

and you've had ups and you've had downs and then the biggest prize of all is yours

and your daddy doesn't know. But he's still alive. What's worse? What's worse

Your dad not knowing because he's not with us anymore or your dad not knowing because he's still with us physically

but not mentally? I honestly don't know, but I do know this

48, sorry, 28 of the country's leading experts including neurologists, psychiatrists and researchers

have written today to the Daily Telegraph actually they've chosen, they've done good work in this field

to describe dementia as the country's greatest health and social care crisis

and they attribute this crisis to the fact that it has been literally neglected for decades

they compare it to cancer where research and also treatment, palliative care

all of those other elements have made the experience of having cancer

infinitely better than it used to be. Don't get me wrong, it's still miserable

Of course it is, but it's infinitely better than it used to be or indeed would have been were it not for the epic amounts of investment

and attention that have been diverted towards it. And we've got it, you know

We've all got this fear. Whereas you get, I mean, if you're listening to this at the age of 16, you probably haven't got it

But I reckon if you're over 40, you've probably got a fear of this happening to you or someone you love

Or, and this is the people that I want to talk to now, you've already got it in your family

You've already got it in your family. And I want you to tell me how you realised how, and the problem with all of these conversations

and we've had a lot of them together over the years, is that almost all of the people working within this world

are doing their absolute best. So when you start talking about an inadequate system

or a failing model, it feels almost as if you're insulting the people

who are doing their best to keep the whole ship afloat. And we are categorically not

This is a systemic issue and it a systemic conversation But you been through this I haven and there will have been moments when you realised that the system was in crisis

And I want you to tell me how you know the dementia care system is in crisis

Because I pay attention to the experts, you know I do, I'm not Michael Gove, but partly because of the way I'm built

and partly because of what I've done for a living for the last 20 years, I pay even more attention to the people who've been through it, the people on the receiving end of the system

Okay? So, your experiences that taught you that dementia is Britain's greatest health and social care crisis

What have you been through? 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need

And it's a bit like those subjects where I say to you, you know nothing about it until you need to know everything

You've been through that. And that is what gives you the ability to answer this question

How do you know that dementia is Britain's greatest health and social care crisis

0345 6060 973. It's 20 past 12. James O'Brien on LBC. It's 22 minutes after 12

You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC, where the claim this morning that dementia is Britain's biggest health crisis

is one that I want to examine via the medium of your experiences

and your knowledge, because I don't really have any. And that's really, I suppose that's really all I can say on the subject

except that I wonder why that is. Is it because of stigma

Why is cancer treatment, for example, which is what the experts writing to The Telegraph today pick up on

such an opposite experience. Cancer treatment being incredibly improved, dementia treatment simply not

Just your answers to that question and your reasons for arriving at that answer. Christopher is in Biddeford

Christopher, what made you pick up the phone? Hi, James. First-time caller, but for sad and difficult reasons

so hopefully you'll understand. um my wife sue died last november with a rare form of dementia called posterior cortical atrophy

which is early onset and is is rather difficult it's very difficult to um to diagnose in the early

in the early stages uh she probably had it for around about eight years but had been diagnosed

with with a rather funny condition called fibromyalgia because there was she had sorts

of symptoms which which meant that she was finding certain elements of living uh more challenging but

cognitively she was still very much there and this is a this is another aspect of some of these rare

dimensions and um in uh just covid began just to make life even easier she she uh she was found to

breast cancer oh lord so she was treated for breast cancer and i would say that the treatment

was absolutely exemplary but incredibly difficult due to the complications of covid which were not

few she came out of the other side of breast cancer and everything was okay and then within

about a year she had bladder cancer so a secondary cancer during this time difficulties she's had

with her vision were being looked at by, we even went to Bristol Eye Hospital

So there were these several strands that were running all together. And when she was signed off from Bristol Eye Hospital

to say that the problem was probably cortical in origin rather than physical

the doctor did the simple cancer test, and by that, simple dementia test

and by that time, she couldn't read a clock face. Oh, wow

And there you go. So she could see it, but she couldn't read it? Yeah, well, PCA, if you imagine, it affects balance, it affects how you feel your body in the world

Right. I mean, if you imagine she got to the point where she couldn't get in and out of a car with any ease

and in the end it wasn't worth trying because she didn't really know where her limbs were

So it's spatial and visual. Spatial and visual. Got it. And she had previously, she'd been a teacher teaching children, particularly with problems with reading and writing

and she lost the ability to write. How cruel. And it is

It's utterly cruel. So what happened was, this was only probably about two and a little bit years

before she actually died. She had a full diagnostic test, which gave her a very low score on various elements

but she still had a great deal of awareness. So this was crushing, I'm sure you can imagine

I mean, we've got through two cancers and we seem to be on the upside, and then suddenly you're hit with something which inexorably will kill you

or you will die with and it will rob you of your life

And so, I mean, well, I did my best and we managed to keep her at home

right the way through, which I think is the most immense privilege

But the sad fact of the matter is that there isn't, it's chalk and cheese

cancer and dementia cancer care and dementia care and in particular if you then take this

to a rare form of dementia which doesn't present very often so therefore

it's difficult to pick up and then certain elements things like memory clinics

so it wasn't going to go and do jigsaw puzzles if I can put it like that

now I understand now I just want to mention because this means so much

to me because we've been helped so much and I'm still being helped I'm now part of a bereaved carers group

with Rare Dementia Support, which is an organization. They work with UCL

They're involved with all of these investigations into both. Particularly here, my side of it is the journey, the dementia journey

And only last week I was actually at their new headquarters in London

which has recently been commissioned. And I think they deal with about six dementias

They are remarkable. They even have a small, they have sort of a get-together unit at Powderham Castle in Devon, only about 50 miles from us

But in the end, we couldn't go there because Sue could not stand being in the car with everything moving around her

So, you know, the problems that are thrown up by a dementia diagnosis, and I think rare dimensions, of course, are different

But the problems are so profound and so all-encompassing that they can't be addressed with medication

They can be addressed, obviously, to some degree with care if the patient presents problems or loses ability

But I was very fortunate because I was still able to care for Sue right the way through

But my experience could not be a starker example, I think, of the difference

No, you're exactly right. Do we have any thoughts on why? Is it because it's incurable and irreversible

that whereas with cancer you're chasing the dream when you treat cancer and the dream is remission

Well, I think that is a large part of it. I mean, I'm 75 years old and I grew up through a time when cancer was a word that was whispered

Yes, yes, yes. So you sort of knew that somebody was ill with cancer

but there was no way that this was something that was going to be accepted by the wider community

as something which was something that could be supported. And dementia, I think, is at that position

but also because of the lack of effective remedies and treatment, we are in a situation where..

And just one other thing, and I'm not complaining because I don't..

Well, you can if you want, Christopher. Just as an example. By the times who was..

it was getting to the point where it was almost impossible for me to care for her

because I couldn't leave the house. Yes. And we did put in with social services

We had some lovely people here who came to see us. We put in with social services for care. I was 24-7 and had been for a very long time

We were offered seven hours a week in two half-hour sessions every day

and Sue's position was so complex. But that's all that the system could come up with

I was in the throes, actually, of appealing that. Yes. and then she died, which was a blessed release for her

But I'm sorry, this is a tale of woe, and I'm finding it really difficult to recount it

You're doing an extraordinary job, and you're inspiring and a lot of love from people who are listening

I'll just read you one from Joanne. What an admirable and decent gentleman this man is

And you honour Sue's memory by sharing these experiences, and it strikes me as a consequence of being able to listen to you

tell this story so powerfully and so clearly. that there's a chicken and egg element here, isn't there

In that the more research and work that is done, it becomes self-generating

the more likely it is that things would improve, and with improvement comes the inspiration to do more

and to work harder and to pursue things. But on the simple question of social care

that's an unfitness for purpose. It's not the fault of the people that would have come to your house

or did come to your house. It's not even the fault of the people that allocated the original inadequate suboptimal seven hours

It's as if there is a language spoken by people like you that is not spoken by the people providing the care

The depth of understanding that you achieve as a carer, of course, has to be of a different order

to the understanding that somebody who is outside the situation and circumstances..

Well, only to start with, I think. And I think that's probably part of what these experts have in mind

is that they want to bring the understanding of the people outside of the situation

closer to the understanding of people like you. Because if you were in charge of deciding what support a family going through

what you and Sue went through, received, you would bring something better to the table than these people did to you

You'd certainly want to. But one of the other things I do appreciate is that it is an immense mountain to climb

Yeah. Because this has effectively been, the care has been given principally by carers, family carers, at home, behind closed doors

And as such, it's been probably easier for it to be tolerated, if not even ignored

But now, when I saw that the report was coming up on Friday, because I was coming back, well, no, it was the week before that I went to the rare dementia support thing

But when I saw that, I thought, well, at last, I know this story

I've lived it. Sue lived it. And the fact that you can focus on it so strongly and clearly now

what will happen, of course, well, we'll wait and see. But at least it's up there and people can see

and they can start to address the problem. Well, and thanks to you, an awful lot of people listening to this programme

will now have a much clearer idea of why this is such an urgent issue

than they did before. Christopher, I hope you'll allow me to say that you honour Sue's memory

Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. It's 12.32, and there it is

The progress made, the letter states today, for cancer in the last half century

proves what is possible when political will, leadership and investment in health and social care

meet scientific advances in diagnosis and treatment. There it is. And what a guy

Thank you, Christopher. Here's Amelia Cox with the headlines. James O'Brien on LBC

It is 12.36, you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. An awful lot of people very, very moved by that last call

and yet, as I'm sure Christopher himself would acknowledge, his experience will be far from unique

I mean, I think possibly the clarity of his contribution and the compassion that shone out of his every pore

while we were talking to him was remarkable, but his story was probably not, and that's why

dementia is described today as the greatest health and social care crisis

facing the entire country and how much help do you get when you need it most answer by the last

account not a lot not enough kate's in brighton kate is it just me kate or does brighton seem to

have been very overrepresented on today's program oh is it oh sorry i'm all for it i think it's

Wonderful, but sometimes these things just sort of strike me at most inappropriate moments

I can drive somewhere else if you mind. No, Brighton it is

What made you pick up the phone today? Well, first of all, what a wonderful man that last caller was

Wow. I lost my mum two years ago to dementia. And, oh, I didn't think it would get me like this

No, it does, though. Don't say sorry, please, for heaven's sake. It does get you at the most unexpected times

It does. So she was... I lost her two years ago. I was really lucky because I work in a job

where I can cancel my work, which I had to do in the end

and I moved in with her. Yeah. But you know I wouldn have her any other way Of course But the way that this disease just stripped her back and all we got when she was diagnosed originally six years ago was a leaflet from the gp wow um and it was sort of go away and read that

and just let us know if you've got any questions and it's all where where do you even start um

thank goodness for alzheimer's uk because if it hadn't been for them i would have been completely

lost. And because every single day, there's a new challenge, there's a new problem. There's

more deterioration. I mean, my mum was calling me mum by the end. And, you know, but, you

know, I think we are so behind on social care and dementia, everything in this country

I've lived in other countries, and they have dementia villages, they have, you know, social

care homes where they've got students living with the elderly. I've read about that

It's just remarkable. Why do you think we're so backward? Or so behind on this? I don't know if you've

given it any thought. I honestly don't know. I know that dementia can still be

like a taboo subject. Yes. But I think an awful lot also with social care

and especially dementia. Everything in social care is about money unfortunately. and we should not be running a social care system for profit it's crazy and and you know what my

mum my mother was on oxygen as well near the end she had all sorts of things going on but her social

care bill at the end was eight thousand pounds a month wow uh yeah and it just how is it like this

but there were also care i mean and i wouldn't put her into a care home i promised to her right

She was terrified. But social care, the council was constantly trying to get her into a home

Well, she needs to go into a home. It's like, but how do you put somebody who's that scared into a home

No, they just couldn't. I mean, it's fascinating that you're in a position to make direct comparisons

with how other countries cope with it. But for those of us who know next to nothing about this

I don't want to gloss over the sense you gave a moment ago

of their diagnosis and then tumbleweed. I mean, there's nothing systemic. There's nothing there

I mean, at later stages, social care becomes part of the story

But when you're trying to deal with it and indeed prepare for the deterioration

there's nothing there that's formal or systemic, apart from the charities. No, we did have a community team come in

but then, and again, like you said earlier, it's not their fault they were coming in

and they have no clue about how to act, how to talk to them

There isn't enough training and awareness in dementia and Alzheimer's. And every case is different, of course

I've now got a friend who, unfortunately, has been diagnosed with Alzheimer's as well

And so every case is different, but it's just, you know, you're just sort of left to deal with it

and just try and scrape every bit of information you can out of the internet. But you both referred to that

You and Christopher both referring to charities and voluntary organisations as taking up an awful lot of the burden that those of us

who haven't been down the paths that you've been down would presume that the state or the NHS would be doing

But no. Absolutely. Absolutely not. It's not that at all. Luckily, I managed to get my mom into, and again, I had to fight for this, but it was a hospice

But they do day programs, a lot of them for, you know, dementia and other things

But so I used to, I managed, goodness, I think it was Dorothy House in Wiltshire

and thank goodness for them because I was able to take my mum even just one day a week

just to sit her and, you know, paint and do crafts and for her to get a little bit of normality as well

rather than just sitting her in a chair and changing the TV programmes for her

Yes, of course. And again, you know, part of that is going to be about cost, isn't it

What about you? What about you? I mean, did anyone look out for you during this process

um no not really no um because you probably could have used a little bit of support and care

as well i um i i i could unfortunately when you're looking after someone with dementia

you can't really have a normal schedule so you can't sort of go off there was a carers group

um but i never managed to get to it because that's the definition of irony that's the definition of

irony isn't it exactly you were too busy caring to get to the carers group that's it but you know

that there are some amazing groups out there there are amazing but we just need to as a country i

also think families need to get more involved yeah and you know so many times this happens you know

families are very much sort of all let social services deal with it let's put them in a home

and and i know it's it's the necessary thing sometimes sure and the preferable thing sometimes

as well. I don't want anybody listening to be sort of feel guiltier than they do already

Oh no, absolutely. Some burdens are unshoulderable. From your point of view

what was the, and again this will be a stupid question from your point of view

because you've been through it, but I haven't. What's the hardest thing for the carer

Um, I think there's a whole bag, James. Yes, yes. It's a tabloid question. I probably shouldn't

have asked it. No, no, but there's I mean there's all sorts from no sleep

I mean I had a monitor next to a baby monitor and it's having

no sleep no time to even you know take a shower yeah yeah because

anything can happen while you're out of the room exactly but yeah I think that

the hardest is just you know just watching them disappear and that the word you use is disappear Your mum just she there and not there Yeah I get little sparks and that you just hold on to Sometimes I would just sit and stare at her

That's my mum. That's my mum. Don't go. You know you did her proud, right

You know you did her incredibly, but I hope you're kind enough to yourself to acknowledge that sometimes

I do. She was my best friend, so I wouldn't do anything else

Well, you didn't have to, and you did. You rose to it, and it's a wonderful thing to hear, actually

even though it comes from such a place of sadness for you. It's a magnificent thing that you did, Kate

Thank you. No, thank you. Good lord. Cup of tea time, is it

Oh, I'd love a cup of tea, please. I'll put the kettle on. Kate, you take care

It's 12.45. James O'Brien on LBC. It's 12.48, you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC

The unpaid carers I'm hearing from as well in my inbox who essentially prop up this entire system which is already itself in crisis

It is, isn't it? It's the great kind of issue of our time, social care

And never is it a more acute issue than in the context of dementia

And yet, in my mind, it's something that we talk about and are aware of, but it's not

It's that thing that I opened with this hour. It's because we think about it in the context of

oh, crikey, I hope that's not a sign of it arriving in my life. But that's the end of our engagement with it

until you have to engage with it because you've got it in your family or yourself

So there's a disconnect there. There's a dissonance. Of course, we all think about it a lot, but we don't

We think about it in a completely unhelpful way. Oh, I can't remember why I've walked into the kitchen

Oh, God, I hope I haven't got dementia. There's proof that we think about dementia a lot

But it's utterly pointless thinking, purposeless, and doesn't improve the situation for the families

and the people who have got it, who are living with it. So we think about it a lot in an entirely unproductive way

I find that quite helpful in getting my head around things, but possibly it's a statement of the bleeding obvious where you're sitting

Steve is in Crawley. Steve, what made you pick up the phone? Hello James

This is a much more difficult subject that we've talked about in the past

It's something I really wondered whether I would have the courage to call in but I'm doing it

If you change your mind that's fine Okay we'll go on to something talking about snowmen

or something like that My mum, elderly mum moved in with us in December 2015

She'd become quite frail and was regularly having falls She was fully compost mentis

She was still driving. It seemed like a good idea at the time to move her in with us

Everything went fine. After two or three years, she started showing signs of losing her memory in bits and pieces

We had to do the difficult thing of taking the car away from her. And she was eventually diagnosed with vascular dementia

She passed away four years ago this coming Friday. I'm looking on my diary

It says, Mum died today, 2021. to thank you very much but it wasn't my mum that passed away um this is going to sound very very

callous but don't if you're considering doing something like this my advice would be don't

because it wasn't my mum for two and a half two and a half years we had a very strange person

living in our house she became violent yeah she became violent she would uh i won't beat my wife

She assaulted my wife on several occasions. My wife's tiny. I'm big

As she hit me, she'd hurt herself. I physically had to wrestle her back into her room on more than one occasion

She wasn't aggressive all the time. It's when she didn't understand what was going on

She would wake up at 3 o'clock in the morning fully dressed and want to go shopping

She'd be standing on the landing ready to go out. It's a very, very strange thing to say

And again, I think only once someone who's been through this will understand it

But six months before she passed away, she had a serious fall in her bedroom upstairs and broke her pelvis

Yeah. She was in hospital for 11 weeks. The care was atrocious because they looked after her physical body

They didn't look after what was left of her mind. Right. When she was theoretically well enough to come home, they were desperate to send her to us

Yes. There was no way that we could look after her. so I spent several weeks

probably about two or three weeks finding what turned out to be

an amazing home local for us that she went into for the last

six months of her life. That was the best thing we ever did. It still wasn't mum but

we still don't sleep properly my wife and I, we still don't sleep properly

those sleep patterns Because of hypervigilance and cortisol and your system being

flooded with fight or flight hormones Our doctor even told us to put a lock on her door

which was theoretically illegal On your side? On our side, yes, to keep her there

because she would come out and be standing at the foot of my bed That tends to wake you up a bit quick

It would be a bit unnerving, wouldn't it? Yeah You did everything you could and more

but it wasn't enough, that must be an almost impossible thing No, there was no help

There was no help whatsoever until we paid like Katie said before

until you pay a ridiculous amount of money for someone else to do it for you

but it was the only way to do it we couldn't have her coming out of hospital

with her psychological problems and her physical problems it's a throwaway phrase I'm afraid these days

unpaid carer isn't it and I think in the back of our minds when we use it

we've just got an image of someone who you know maybe helps

cooks a meal or makes a cup of tea but an unpaid carer is doing

I think we've got about £90 a week or something. £90 a week carer's allowance

and you're on duty 24 hours a day, 7 days a week

And you're doing things you've had no training for, no preparation for. And still trying to do my job

Good Lord, you didn't mention that. No, no, I'm a photographer. We spoke to several times before

I a photographer and I work from home a lot of time which did help a lot but I still had to go out and shoot weddings and this kind of stuff Which means my wife then had to look after mum on her own And she would not be physically

No, my wife was an absolute angel through all of this. I only realized how much of an angel she was when mum had gone

How come? Just tell me more about what you mean by that

It wasn't her mum. She was putting up all sorts of things

I mean, my mum would be sitting there and Fran would say, my wife would say

what do you want for dinner? And mum would say, I don't know, lamb chops. So mum would go out and Fran would go out and get lamb chops

put them in front of mum and said, what's this? I didn't ask for that

It's relentless. And she wouldn't throw them across the floor, but she wouldn't eat them. No, but still, it's relentless

Yeah, yeah. It was absolutely relentless, yeah. And the system, there's nothing there

There's nothing there to help you. And the more you do, the more that whatever help is there sort of retreats from your family, almost

Yeah, absolutely. Are you a good son? You know, I said this to Kate as well

You know, you did your best. That's all anybody can ever do

You did your mum proud. We certainly did, but it wasn't enough because I did feel very, very guilty at the end

Oh, but it was never going to be enough, Steve. We buried someone very strange

That wasn't my mum that we put in the ground. Oh, bless you, mate. You know what I mean? I do know what you mean

I do know what you mean. And you've explained it really, really well. Thank you, James

And you honour her memory. You really do. And you highlight the difficulties that families up and down the country are facing

without any outlet, really, and any particular desire to complain, of course

But that's how these crises grow. And as the demographics change and the statistics increase exponentially

so do the problems we're hearing about. Sheila is in Maidley in Staffordshire

Sheila, what would you like to say? Well, I have dementia, Deb

I have Alzheimer's disease. I was diagnosed 13 years ago, and I kind of run a balancing act

between being terribly active as a dementia activist and being very still, very quiet

which I need after I've been busy. My husband, who was my main carer, died four years ago

and that was a terrible blow. but I live in what's called an extra care facility

so that I have my own flat but there are carers who come in twice a day

but of course I have to pay for that there's no way of getting that free

but I find that I also have a very, very loving family

who are here all the time and give me all the support that they can do

Just as you did for them when they were small. Yes, I hope so

I'm sure so. And in my family, when I first got it

my granddaughter, who was four or so at the time, went into school and said that her daddy had got a horrible disease

called sissy hammers, and that's what we call it. We don't call it Alzheimer's

Gosh. And all my friends know that, so I had a letter today from a very dear Quaker friend

who said, how are the sissy hammers? Are they still banging? That's lovely

I mean, I'll ask you a question, and you'll tell me if it's inappropriate, I hope

Because clearly you have good days and bad days. Yeah. How do you personally deal with the knowledge

that things will get worse with your condition? Well, I've seen... Probably because my family tend to live to a long age

I've seen a lot of dementia. Yes. and it's quite true when you've seen one person with dementia

you've seen one person with dementia so I know what it's going to be like

but something that inspires me is a dirty lady who lived in a flat complex

with her husband and she died of dementia she was like a little skeleton

when she died sort of curled up against her husband in a fetal position

but she was the joy of this building everybody loved her she was interested in everything i learned to sing blade and races

so i could sing it with her i learned all the words and she'd simply love me to go and sing

the communal room with her and sing blade and races there are things that make life good they

still make life good you know i've got great grandchildren and grandchildren and they will

know about, well not the little ones but the older ones all know about the dementia and their carers, one of my

gunsons comes every day and gets all my medication and puts it in a

Dosset box, you know, morning and evening and all that kind of thing. So you are determined to follow her

example and find joy and bring joy wherever you can? Well I don't know how much joy

I bring but it's not Well I'm pretty sure you do, Sheila. It's

When I first heard about it, I just wanted to go to bed and put the duvet over my head

In fact, like many people I know, I belong to a couple of peer support groups

Right. And that's something I would say to anyone who has dementia. Find a peer support group

Meet with other people who've got dementia. And particularly, a peer support group that doesn't have carers

So that they're just you and the people with dementia. Gosh. And you can share and you're not going to upset the carers

You're amazing. Thank you. And down with fizzy hammers. Down with fizzy hammers, yes

Down with flipping fizzy hammers, eh? Thank you for your call today

And I do enjoy your programme. I really do. It's great to have a lefty on LBC

I don't know what you're talking about, Sheila. Thank you very much indeed

That means so much to me. I don't know if I will even try to put it into words

It's a pleasure and a privilege to keep you company, Sheila. If you missed any of today's show

you can listen back on our free Global Player app or the LBC app, where you can also stay up to date with all the latest news videos and opinions

and there's some podcasts as well. Download the official LBC app for free from your app store now

Coming up at four on LBC, it's Tom Swarbrick, but now it's time for another Sheila, Sheila Fogarty

That was a superb listen, that whole hour. Oh, thank you. And good on Sheila, and she definitely brings joy, doesn't she

Oh, yes. Even in that call. James O'Brien on LBC