Trump works only to benefit Trump

Three minutes after ten is the time. It's not the most obvious question to ask, or indeed the most important element of the issues

But there are two big stories, big international stories, there are several, but to draw the eye particularly this morning

one of course involves FIFA and the, well, I mean, doughty defence of decency being mounted by UEFA of all people

It's a timely reminder of what happens if everybody unites and acts consistently

Imagine if the US media had behaved towards Donald Trump as the European Football Federation is behaving towards Gianni, his mate Gianni Infantino

And the second story, of course, is the announcement today by Trump that peace in the Middle East is on the way, or at least the cessation of the carnage, the genocide in Gaza

And they've got something in common. It's twofold. You might work out half of it, and then if you work out half of it, you'll be able to work out the rest of it

But I'm going to leave that thought hanging for a while. What on earth links the hideous story about attempts to exploit the World Cup for the enrichment

Well, I'm beginning to give you clues now. What on earth links the FIFA story to the Gaza story

It's never going to happen, is it? the world working out a way to treat Trump with the derision he so clearly deserves

It is a tragedy for our age that if Donald Trump appeared on television claiming

that he has cured the common cold or that he has solved mathematical riddles that have tested

humanity since the time of Isaac Newton, if he appeared on television claiming to be a nuclear

a physicist or explaining how he was going to inhabit Mars, people would cheer him

People would cheer him. Dick Littlejohn would write a Daily Mail column about how incredible it is that Donald Trump

has cured the common cold and solved timeless mathematical mysteries and somehow worked

out a way to live on Mars. He'd write a column about it and probably use it as an opportunity to attack Andy Burnham

and various other members of the UK media would ask incredibly fatuous questions

like, is this the end of the common cold or has this changed your view of Donald Trump

or are we looking at a new world? And it is incredible to me

that we're all still, this isn't just a criticism of the toticulars

and the wombats who haven't been able to see clearly how hideous Donald Trump is from the very, very start

It seems incredible to me. We still don't know how to deal with it Because here's the thing, right

Come here a minute. If the President of the United States announces something

even if he has... Imagine if the boy who cried wolf was the President of the United States

Oh, this is good. I hadn't thought of this before. You know the story of the boy who cried wolf, right

The boy cries wolf so many times that when there is actually... And there is no wolf

He just enjoys the fuss that it creates in the way that perhaps announcing things with regard to Iran

You might enjoy the impact that it has upon oil prices or share prices in general

So you announce things that are not true because you enjoy the reaction

That is, I think, a fairly neat distillation of The Boy Who Cried Wolf. Is it an Aesop fable, The Boy Who Cried Wolf, or is it just a kind of one handed down through the ages

Is it just part of an oral tradition? I don't know. It doesn't matter. You do it, you announce it because you enjoy the reaction

even though you know it's not true. I'm not sure we can say the second bit about Trump

I think his relationship with truth and reality is at the very least strained

and quite possibly non-existent. But the rest of us know it's not true

And the parable of the boy who cried wolf stands. We don't need to yse whether or not

Donald Trump realises that there's no wolf. He announces it because he enjoys, in some sense, because he enjoys the reaction

Yeah? But it's not true. How many times have we heard him say that the war against Iran is over

Actually close to countless now. He announces it, it's not true. I mean, think about the election, the 2020 election

How many times has he claimed he won that? It's not true. He enjoys the reaction, not in the sense of a share price going up

but in the sense that it chips away at the notion of democracy in the United States, of America being trustworthy or reliable

which means if he loses another election, for example, the midterms, he'll be able to claim that he has been a victim of some sort of conspiracy

or some sort of robbery or corruption. He says things that are not true because of the reaction

The announcements are a means to an end. Just like the boy who cried wolf shouted wolf

and all the villagers came running and there was no wolf so that when he shouted wolf and there was a wolf

nobody came and all the sheep got eaten. I should have done a spoiler alert there in case you've never actually read or listened to the end of the boy, the fable of the boy who cried wolf

So when Donald Trump announces that a historic agreement has been reached to disarm Hamas and other militant groups inside Gaza, you have to report it

You have to run towards the flock of sheep because the shepherd has shouted wolf

You have to report it. You have to treat it as if it were a trustworthy, honest, reliable president who had announced it, such as, off the top of my head, Barack Obama or Bill Clinton. You have to

Or I think George W. Bush or his father actually announced serial untruths for fun, so you can stick them on the list as well. Let's try not to be partisan about this

you have to report it even though the man is i mean he uses capital letters in a way that most

toddlers have grown out of peace and security are in capital letters monumental step using his own

ludicrous social media platform to announce that israeli forces would withdraw from gaza despite

the fact that literally no comment has been made by israel let me be absolutely clear

I mean it has to end one day right that's going to be my second question today

it has to end one day and when it does he will claim the credit

you are familiar with the rather more modern parable of the pigeon playing chess right

a pigeon plays chess there is no point playing chess with a pigeon because you'll play your best moves

and the pigeon will poop all over the board knock over all the pieces

and then strut around the place claiming that they've secured a glorious victory if ever humankind had somehow managed to create

a chess-playing pigeon, that man is Donald Trump. And one day it will be true

And then, of course, Hamas come out and say, yeah, we're on board with this

because they know, I think, and listen, I could be wrong, one day it will be true

they know, I think, that Israel won't. I don't know how Israel..

I mean, didn't Benjamin Netanyahu promise to eradicate Hamas in the same way that Donald Trump said

he was going to eradicate the Iranian regime, which is currently led by the son of the man who was leading it when he said he was going to eradicate the regime

Hamas officials said that a committee established by Trump Board of Peace to govern Gaza would oversee the process of storing its weapons Storing its weapons that an interesting word as well So you have to talk about it as if it is epic news

because potentially it is, and one day it will be. And yet at the same time, as anybody with a modicum of intelligence

or anyone who has been paying the vaguest bit of attention or anybody who's not high on the fumes of Trump's depravity will know

it's a hill of beans. if you doubt how ridiculous it is

to take this as gospel then just remind yourself refresh your memory

of what has gone on with regard to Iran and that joke that was funny

for about five minutes that I was making about the Craig David lyrics needing to be changed

because he announces a ceasefire on a Monday resumes offensives on a Tuesday

threatens them on a Wednesday announces victory on a Thursday and is back to bombing them on a Friday

which he'll on Sunday It's still quite funny if you've got a mischievous sense of humour like mine

and I'm fully aware of the seriousness of the subject that we are discussing. And what do you do

A senior Hamas official has, I think, told the BBC that Hamas has made a difficult decision and a concession

to save the Palestinians of Gaza who were facing extermination. The agreement contains a clear provision

stating that Israel must commit to and implement its obligations. So I think Trump is probably, and I'm about to ask you a question about what you think is going on here, what you think is really going on here

I think it's probably a PR victory for Hamas. Perish the thought, because they'll come out and say we're on board with it

Israel will not, and Hamas will therefore claim that they're acting in good faith and Benjamin Netanyahu's regime is not

and of course since the last ceasefire was announced I'm afraid and I will check this

figure I've lost count of the number of people who died I can tell you because it's burnt in my

memory that 1200 people died during Hamas's attacks on Israel on October the 7th and I think

the last time I checked that Israel's response had killed more than 70,000 people including

obviously thousands upon thousands of children and the strip itself has been reduced largely to rubble

Some people, of course, and it's important to recognise their existence, still object to the use of the word genocide

But under most definitions of that word, I'm afraid the threshold was reached some time ago

Thirteen minutes after ten is the time. So what do we do

I mean, I can't do it again. What do we do? Do we run through the fictitious list of wars that he's ended

and pretend that he is something other than a deranged liar is the nicest way I can put it

I don't think he can sue me for that, can he? Although he might try

He tries to cow media organisations for telling the truth in the same way that our own little Timu Trump

Nigel Farage, is doing at the moment. But, I mean, what do you do? How do you do it

I think the question is twofold this morning. The first one is pretty straightforward

What do you actually think is going on here? And if you want to tell me that this should be treated in good faith

absolutely transparent, the Board of Peas have, against all odds and previous evidence

actually come through with something that is motivated entirely by concern for the people of Palestine and the security of the state of Israel

and everybody involved is acting out of altruism and goodness, then I might have a bridge to sell you

but I'd love to hear what you've got to say. what do you think is really going on here and and you are allowed of course to agree with me

i think that trump is doing what trump does and just throwing some stuff at the wall in the hope

that some of it will stick allowing himself to spend a news cycle claiming victory distracting

slightly from iran trying to g up something with regard to the midterms i mean it doesn't really

matter trying to yze what trump is doing is ridiculous he does these things because he thinks

the reaction might benefit him and if it doesn't benefit him he moves on to something else that

might benefit him like a kind of turbocharged boris johnson when it comes to opportunism and

news cycles what a hammer why are hamas playing ball with this announcement either because they

believe it's true or because they believe that they engender or that or they they secure positive pr

as a result i hamas are not as responsible as israel for the death of 70 000 people in the gaza

strip but my god the blood on the hands of those terrorists is visible from space

so handing them any form of PR victory would be both disastrous and disgraceful but but but but

everybody wants it to be real everybody wants it to end which is my second question how do you

think it does end I don't see how it ends while Benjamin Netanyahu is still in power if anybody

still doubts and i fully appreciate that some people do doubt this to be true they're the people

that call you anti-semitic if you shed tears over dead palestinians or argue that israel had no right

to kill um tens of thousands of people innocent civilians they're the people who dispute this

final observation which is benjamin netanyahu can't be in charge while this peace is achieved

because his survival and his regime depends entirely upon the support of people who want

and who have said that they would like to remove Gaza from the face of the earth

It talked about dropping a nuclear bomb on it. I think, was it the defence minister who only this week was talking about the view

the actual vista, the physical perspective of Gaza, now not having any buildings, interrupting a view to the sea

What's actually happening? Tell me what you think is happening here. And that involves Donald Trump's announcement

Hamas' agreement, and Israel's current silence. That could end, of course, in the course of this programme

It could end in the course of this hour. It could end in the little break that we're about to go to, in which case we'll have to recalibrate the question slightly when we come back

What do you think? And we haven't had a phone-in on this for a while. And I don't know why we suffer from horror fatigue

and we can talk about it every day for a fortnight and in the aftermath of October the 7th

of course we talked about these issues for a long long time

and we noted together that moment when the reaction moved from proportionate to disproportionate

and then from disproportionate to attempted ethnic cleansing or unconscionable carnage or genocide

whichever word you prefer to use unless you're one of those people who accuses anybody

who cries the same amount of tears over a dead Israeli child

that they do over a Palestinian child of being anti-Semitic, of course, if you're one of those people

then you don't recognize that the response has been and very quickly became hideously disproportionate

and you never will, and I acknowledge your existence, and I kind of understand your motivation

even as you contribute to the context in which this carnage continues

and Israel's status in the world has been absolutely beyond tarnished by Benjamin Netanyahu

that on you but you never understand that and that fine too but what is actually happening today And of course because we haven talked about this for a while you welcome to bring other elements into the conversation

as I nudge you towards the second question, which is, of course, how can it actually end

I've got no idea what the answer to that question is in the context of Iran

except that at some point the United States is going to have to accept defeat without acknowledging it

that's the crucial part as long as trump is in power the only way the situation in iran ends is

with the acceptance of defeat without any acknowledgement of defeat they will accept

that they're not going to win while claiming that they've won that is trumpism in a nutshell

i don't know what happens because there are so many more moving parts i don't know what happens

in gaza i have a view on what's happening today it could be wrong yours might be better

0345 6060 973 but second question is how actually can it does it will it

end 0345 6060 973 that's it that's that's the phone in two questions

what's going on today with regards to Trump Hamas and Israel and how

can it does it will it actually end and will it end when it ends

or will it just be another stalemate, another stagnation, another continuing of the imprisonment of the Palestinian people

until a point where the terrorists who achieve the whip hand in those sort of contexts commit

another atrocity and Israel responds by committing atrocities of its own and everybody looks in

horror at the situation and waits for a return to what? To the normality? To the stalemate

does it ever end? We'll be talking about this they carry me out of this studio

still asking the same question, I don't know hit the numbers now, you will get through 03456060973

is the number you need it's 20 past 10 James O'Brien on LBC

22 minutes after 10 and of course Netanyahu was in DC wasn't he this week or late

last week and the ongoing situation in the West Bank there the crimes being committed by

the illegally occupying Israelis in the West Bank may be part of your answer to the question

of why this has been announced this week. Do you think Netanyahu and Trump might have come to some sort of arrangement

Move the spotlight back to Gaza while we carry on illegally occupying territory

and attacking residents of the West Bank? I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud

But I do know this. It's going to be a heck of a lot more complicated than anything that Donald Trump has announced this morning

Moe's in Birmingham. Moe, what's going on? And if you fancy a crack at the big question, how on earth does it, will it, can it end

Right. I'll come to that last part at the end, as stated

Okay, in regards to what Hamas is looking at this, and maybe potentially the other armed groups within the Palestinian organisation

I think there are a number of factors there. I think the first factor, and this is entirely practical

their weapons have lost the value that they may have held 10 or 15 years ago they are not stupid

people they're seeing modern warfare they've seen how israel has fought this war with the use of

drones air force and so on a palestinian rpg or ak-47 is no longer fit for purpose when it comes

to resisting the Israeli armed forces. And so they think the value of us giving it up

is far better when it comes to winning the hearts and minds of people worldwide than it is for us to retain it

and to fight what is a war that isn't, a battle that isn't going to go in our favor

So there is that practical value. the second one is that they believe and in the same way it parallels what the iranians have

come to the conclusion when it comes to their potential pursuit of nuclear weapons i think

they believe that the pr war and i don't like using the word war but i'll say it anyway

the PR war of Palestinians suffering and suffering great injustice in Gaza

and in the West Bank, and these are Palestinians that are overwhelmingly not armed

is far more valuable than the actual act of armed resistance. It's pretty much over, I think

I think it's pretty much won. Unless you're in a sort of very echoey Facebook group

or a very self-selecting circle, the global attitude towards what Israel has done in Gaza

is edging ever closer to unanimity. I mean, it is an extraordinary disaster

for people who believe in the modern state of Israel that Benjamin Netanyahu has turned it into such an unprecedented pariah

And I think that's important. Now, the other part is that Israel is going to go through an election

In October, I think. There are large parts of Benjamin Netanyahu's coalition

that thrives on war, that actually enjoys war and conflict. And this is why, I mean, we're talking about the cohort

represented most obviously by Smotrich and Ben Gavir. Yes. And this is why they could never agree to this

They can't, but the point is... But everybody knows this. Sorry to get frustrated. I'm not frustrated with you

Everybody knows this, except people who, I mean, unforgivably don't even have the curiosity to understand the most basic tenets of this issue

And there are plenty of them in the British media. But everybody knows that Netanyahu's government falls if Smotrich and Ben-Gavir walk

And Smotrich and Ben-Gavir are committed to the crimes that are currently being committed in the West Bank

So the idea of them agreeing to anything that Hamas are happy with is, I think, for the birds, no

and yet we all still report it as if this is feasible and plausible and real

But it's the fact that if there are no bullets coming the other way

if there are no rockets coming the other way, are they going to just go in like a pack of lions into a cave

with undefended people and just ravage away? It just looks terrible. It looks awful

And it's something that's actually very difficult to sell to the Israeli public in an election time

and I think that really severely undermines that coalition. If there is war, James, in my point of view

I can't see how Netanyahu does not come back. I think the presence of war, he needs conflict in Lebanon

in Syria, in Gaza, the West Bank and Iran to come back into power

And if there is no war, his coalition, which thrives upon it and which needs it, just cannot sustain itself

And I think that is a conclusion that potentially Hamas is hedged on

And there is a final aspect of it I think they have received guarantees from friendly nations in the region who haven quite promised them the blank check if the Israelis renege

but are becoming more and more involved. And I think they've decided that actually

we're going to do this. That doesn't mean that they're going to become a peace-loving

western style democratic liberal party I think they'll be always committed to having

one state between the Mediterranean and the River Jordan but they've decided that their

individual resistance at this moment of time here is no longer a requirement I

I hesitate to ask you this question because it is like trying to

it's like trying to ask you to commentate on the annual Herding Cats Championship

But what's Trump doing this morning? I think, look, there's been, again, a lot of press about

what the hell is the Board of Gaza Peace been doing over these last months

So this is a little sock to that. There is also, I think, a great deal of disappointment

from a number of his Arab allies upon what they perceive is his inability to protect them

from Iranian aggression. and this is a way of him showing that look he can do something to help them out

okay i think there was been a lot of disappointment yeah there's been a lot of disappointment if you

remember about a week ago he announced a major nuclear deal with saudi arabia whereby saudi

arabia will be allowed to have uranium enrichment in in its country and then he wrote back to say

that, oh, that will only be allowed actually if he recognizes or if Saudi Arabia joins an updated version of the Abraham Accords

And Saudi Arabia has said very often that he won't join the Abraham Accords

unless there are firm moves towards or the presence of a Palestinian state

And this is a sort of sop again to that, because again, if you look at the framework that's been provided

there is again talk of a potentially upgraded Palestinian government, you know, a governance mechanism that will allow self-rule

So it is to sort of say that, look, we are moving towards that

Now, are you going to talk about potentially normalising with Israel? And then we could talk about, you know, getting this nuclear deal into place

I don't have the exact figures in front of me, but Israeli public opinion is largely in favour of war

for the reasons that you have partly described. Netanyahu's pitch is that he's the only person

that can keep people safe from all of these threats or barbarians at the gate

And then, of course, that's why the October 7th atrocity... Yeah, I'll slightly amend that

Go on. I wouldn't say all of Israeli public. I would say the electorate that votes for Netanyahu..

I think I've seen figures in the region of 80%, certainly not that recently

but certainly in the not-too-distant past in terms of the war against Iran

and possibly the continuing attacks on Gaza? I think there's pretty deep and wide public support for that

I think, would that support exist? And, you know, if it does exist

I'd be really worried about the status of the Israeli public if their enemy has not a gun to fire back with

At this moment of time, they could perceive and say that we've got an enemy that is dedicated

to doing multiple October the 7th. If that enemy no longer can do that

and their only weapon is to politically agitate, which let's be honest here

if Hamas have a democratic mandate to always, you know, potentially... Well, they don't really

I mean, the election was blooming yonks ago, wasn't it? Yeah, it was. I mean, I know it's popular to argue

that the Palestinian people elected Hamas many years ago and therefore they must also all be in favour

of the October the 7th atrocities. It's a sort of moral somersault that allows some people to justify

their own support for Benjamin Netanyahu's atrocities in Gaza. But I don't think they've got much of a mandate under any..

No, no, no, no. It needs a new election, I think. There's a part..

Well, then, I mean, late for the news. I always enjoy talking to you, Moe. Thank you for being such a deep thinker

But the... In some ways, then, if we were trying, and I know it's ridiculous

and I know I always say we shouldn't, and then I know I always end up doing it, but if we were trying to work out

what Trump was playing at here, In some ways, what we're looking at is actually a form of aperitif for the Israeli elections in October

Yes. I think, look, this solution that he's provided is not good for Netanyahu, which again makes me think here

I think, again, going back to Iran and the Iran conflict is the main one and what's happening in the Straits of Hormuz is the main one

I think there's Netanyahu, no no, sorry Trump does not want the war

to continue, he wants oil to come down as quickly as possible, he doesn't

want to run through all the potential controversy of claiming that the midterm

elections are fraudulent they're rigged because he has lost, because the public is not happy with his

cost of living management and so on his numbers are absolutely tanking

he doesn't want to go through all of that okay, but he may have to because it's, you know, the only option for him is that he wins

He's not going to accept a democratic-dominated House and Senate. Okay. Okay, let's steer you back, if I may

and a brief answer because I'm very late for the news. What's Israel going to do

Netanyahu will do everything he can do. No, no, right now, today, because, you know, every headline

every television screen in the country has got Israel yet to comment on it at the moment

Yeah, I think they'll continue the silence. Whoa, okay. I'm not turning this into a game or doing any mystic jimmery or anything like that

but I am fascinated to know what do you think Israel is going to do, because that's part of the answer to the two questions that I'm asking

If you want to provide your answers to any of these questions, 03456060973 is the number you need

It's 1033. Dominic Ellis has your headline. James O'Brien on LBC. It is 1036, and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

Tariq writes, do you really think Israel wants peace while they are trying to destroy the West Bank

It's a joke. Nick says, does James not think that rather than just seeking a reaction

Trump in fact believes much of what he says, such as the level of his cognitive decline

He achieves the worst of both worlds in demonstrating an unhealthy mix of confabulation and connivance

Joyce suggests or says, I don't have the answer to what happens in Gaza, but I know that no one cares what happens to the people

I mean, I presume when you say no one, Joyce, you've got a collection of individuals in mind

but I think you're wrong to suggest that no one cares what happens to the people

John says this will end when Smotrich and Ben Govear bring Netanyahu down with a vote

That's from Swanage. And this is, of course, in answer to the very specific question

of what you think is really going on. This is Amir suggesting that Netanyahu's visit to the USA has led to a new plan

which allows Israel to annex the West Bank completely because it is more valuable to them than Gaza

I get a lot of abuse on days like... Well, I don't get abuse. I just get people suggesting that I shouldn't be using the word genocide

which is perfectly reasonable. And even Suzanne suggesting that I should look it up in a dictionary

Well, you know, I'm no expert on this. So let's turn to a resolution passed by the International Association of Genocide Scholars, shall we

Is that good enough for you, Suzanne? An International Association of Genocide Scholars

Brackets. I know it isn't. Close brackets, because they're going to say something you don't want to hear

Israel's conduct, they found last year, meets the legal definition as laid out in the UN Convention on Genocide

That's a three-page resolution in which the International Association of Genocide Scholars

presented a litany of actions undertaken by Israel throughout the then 22-month long war

that it recognizes as constituting genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity

But of course, the International Association of Genocide Scholars are, tongue slightly in cheek here

open to accusations of bias and or anti-Semitism. So let's turn instead to some Israeli organizations that are dedicated to human rights

Let's look, for example, at Physicians for Human Rights Israel and an organization you may have come across, which I'll probably mispronounce, called B'Tselem

They have also concluded that Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip

With the publication of these two reports, it was stated last year, roughly this time last year, actually, the 28th of July, B'Tselem and Physicians for Human Rights Israel

become the first two Israeli organizations, Israeli organizations, to state it loud and clear

based on meticulous documentation and research. Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza

This is another milestone in the human rights community's efforts to hold Israeli authorities accountable for their crimes against Palestinians

So you've got the International Association of Genocide Scholars. You've got two of the leading human rights organizations in Israel itself

And just to go for the hat trick, Suzanne, Israel has committed genocide against the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip

The UN Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem and Israel

said in a new report today urging Israel and all states to fulfill their legal obligations under international law to end the genocide and punish those responsible for it

So I'm going to cautiously suggest that either you pick a fight with the International Association of Genocide Scholars

the UN Commission, the International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory

or indeed the Israeli Human Rights Organisations, but Sulem and Physicians for Human Rights, over their definition of the word

Or, perhaps, Suzanne, you'd transfer your attentions to the people committing the genocide

and suggest that they understand what it is they're doing and what the word means

rather than suggesting that I somehow need a dictionary. And that is the sound of wasted breath

Because there are people who are utterly, utterly immune to reason, findings, evidence

and of course the evidence of their own eyes and ears. 10.41 is the time 03456060973

is the number you need if you want to tell me what you think is happening today

Israel still to comment and how on earth this ends or what on earth

the resolution looks like because I don't think and I hope I'm wrong

I don't think it looks like this 10.41 is the time Ahmed is in Islington

Ahmed what would you like to say thank you I just want to say that

you know this is not the first time that the palestinians uh fulfilled their end of any

agreement with israel and it's certainly israel is not going to fulfill its end of the agreement

if we look at history uh of the of the conflict if you like between israel and palestinians israel

has never ever fulfilled its end of the agreement so i don't know why we should be hopeful uh on this

not even the ceasefire i mean respectfully i don't hold a great deal of hope or trust in

Hamas's position on these issues either so I mean they've come out and said we will abide by it I

thought that Moe in Birmingham's ysis of the pragmatism that may lie behind that with the

irrelevance or the redundancy of their weapons cash was was interesting but I I certainly don't

think that the that the trustworthiness of Israel is any any less than the trustworthiness of Hamas

well the point is that you we need to look at is who has got the upper hand here and who has the

the power to make a change and that's Israel not Hamas and currently what we are really seeing is

the fact that for example Hamas committed to the ceasefire they haven't fired anything since the

ceasefire started on Israel whereas Israel has killed more than 1,000 Palestinians and yet only

yesterday killed six people in Gaza so they never really committed to any of agreements that they

signed with the Palestinians. Look at, for example, Oslo agreement that they signed in 1994

I think, and they never committed to that. The settlements expanded more than ever

after they signed an agreement which was supposed to lead to a Palestinian state

after five years, and it never did because Israel was expanding its settlements

its illegal settlements. Look at West Bank, look at Lebanon, look at Syria as well

look at how Israel is acting in the region well i i have done and i do and i will but i but i just i mean apart from the observation

that that israel are not to be trusted which is the point that you're making and that that is of

course open to challenge and to ysis until they announce their response to this we're kind

of going over quite well rehearsed territory why if i push you instead towards the question of why

do you think what what is trump doing today what is this announcement designed to do and why do you

think Hamas have been so quick to endorse it? No, I don't think Hamas has been so quick. There's

been a lot of pressure on Hamas to commit to this. So a lot of pressure from the region

and globally as well from Egypt, Qatar, I believe, and other players in the region

on this particular aspect for disarmament. Now, Hamas was arguing that Israel will not

commit to its end of the agreement and that's why they didn't want to

but I think Hamas could not resist the pressure that they were facing

and then they had to come to this announcement however we know

that Israel is not going to have enough pressure globally to come to it

I don't want to badger you but what's Trump playing at I think

Trump has got he feels in a position also there is a pressure around him

in a way that he feels in a position that he has to come up with some sort of

announcement. But look at the announcement of the ceasefire. There was never

ceasefire. The genocide carried on in Gaza. Still up until this moment I have my family live in

Gaza and what's so called the yellow line keeps getting closer and closer and squeezing people

Just remind people listening what the yellow line is. Yeah. The yellow line as well has imposed on Gaza, taking more than 70% of the Gaza territory

So it a sort of de facto border Exactly And then they actually every day they push this yellow line further and further They yellow cubes semantic cubes They push them further and further into the Palestinian area where people live in Gaza

And imagine that Gaza was one of the most densely populated areas in the world

And now they're all squeezed in only about 25% of the Gaza Strip

so it's almost like what many people described it as concentration camps now

and it doesn't look like it has the good intention to release the pressure

on the Gaza people How will today's announcement from the White House and indeed from Hamas be

greeted or processed by your family in Gaza do you think? I was going to say that actually

it doesn't have in the region Gaza, like when I spoke to my family

at France, it doesn't have as much of a noise as it has in the

Western media. Because we've been here before. Exactly. A lot of people are not really

hopeful around the fact that Israel will commit to its agreement. But also, you know, people

look at what's going on around them. They say, like, to me, look at what's going on

in the West Bank. There's no Hamas in the West Bank. And then the

violence and the killing of the Palestinians carrying on. Also, my sister actually just said to me, look at what's happening in Syria

In Syria in particular, it's a very good example that there was never any resistance from the

Syrian people against Israel for occupying their land. And yet Israel is expanding in the Syrian

land. So it's not about whether there is a resistance or there isn't, whether there is

violence or there isn't. It's about what Israel wants and is about the fact that Israel is

is committing many acts of war crimes and genocidal wars without being held accountable

I think we have to think about one thing. When Israel was held accountable for its action

Never. So if you take it from 1948, from the year that Israel was created, up until today

Israel was never held accountable for its action. Israel never paid any consequences for its action

So, of course, naturally, they will not commit to anything because they know if they don't commit, there will be no consequences

One last point I want to make about this, which is if you look at the elections in Israel and listen, just listen to the front runners in these elections and listen to their campaign

None of those guys is actually promoting their campaign as a promoting peace

is they're all more killing, more bloodshed in the region, more land grabbing

Look at them and look from Bennett to Katz to Netanyahu to all of these guys

Their campaign is about more killing, more grabbing. They're even campaigning that they should take Gaza

and get the people out or do whatever we like with the people, what we want Gaza to have and die of it

So those are the front runners in the Israeli elections. And you can imagine what the kind of society that we have created as a global at the world because we never held them accountable for their action

And that's where the problem is. I've heard many of your speakers saying that the problem is with the government

You've heard me say that as well. And, of course, I reference polling and I point out public support for some of this activity

But, of course, the ultimate articulation of public feeling will come in the October elections

and as you say, it's not a happy prospect. Thank you, Ahmed

It's 10.49, quite late for the break. I hope you feel you've had an opportunity

to put your point across properly. And, of course, if you want to challenge anything Ahmed said

you know what to do. 0-3-4-5-6-0-6-0-9-7-3. We'll catch up with our Jerusalem-based correspondent

Noga Tanopolsky, after this, I think. James O'Brien on LBC. 10.52 is the time

never do we dip our toe into discussions of the broader issues of the Middle East

but obviously particularly Israel, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, and attendant issues, without a few messages dropping into the studio

suggesting that we get in touch with Noga Tanopolsky, the freelance journalist based in Jerusalem

who has been a valued guide through an awful lot of these issues and actions

since the horrors of October the 7th, 2023, and we turn to her once again today

I mean, just take it from the top, really, Noga. You'll be aware of Trump's announcement, Hamas' response, and Israel's current silence

What should we make of it all? Good to see you, James

Right, right. Look, this is Trump's style, certainly when it comes to the Middle East

He makes a big, bombastic announcement. He very often will catch his closest allies by surprise, or almost

and then those of us trying to understand what's happening have to wait around and see what unfolds

so that's again the circumstance now like we can say it was when he announced the ceasefire in gaza

back in october last year the same thing with the mou by the way the memorandum of

understanding to the united states and iran happened similarly the situation here is that

And Donald Trump's ceasefire over Gaza did have the immediate and massive effect of freeing the Israeli hostages and stopping, you know, the full bore war taking place in Gaza

And since then, it's been a stalemate. Many, many Gazans have died, including civilians, including two children just two days ago in Israeli strikes

Israelis always say they're operating against terror targets. Everybody is stuck. And Donald Trump has wanted to get what he appointed, this board of peace in and trying to move things

Apparently, this is Jared Kushner's number one task right now, the son-in-law, the inexperienced son-in-law of the president of the United States

So we found out just yesterday, hours ahead of this, that there were intense negotiations under the auspices of Egyptian intelligence

And I'm emphasizing that because it's interesting that Egypt, that has a huge interest here, Egypt also shares a border with Gaza

Egypt detests Hamas, considers it an enemy as much as Israel does

So Egypt was running this, but the mediators were Turkey and Qatar that are allies of Hamas

So this scenario is already interesting that this group of countries would come together and basically try and shove this down Hamas's throat

We know that Hamas did sign this agreement, but Razi Hamad, the Hamas leader, already spoke today with Western media and said, no way, we're not laying down our arms

We're not demilitarizing Gaza. We might put some of our revolvers in, you know, he said in storage

I thought that word was very significant, actually. It jumped out at me about 40 minutes ago

Right? Yes. Now, what we know from Israel, and Donald Trump said that Israel would withdraw only

and like solely in pace with Hamas disarmament Now Israel has not said a word I think Prime Minister Netanyahu is taking advantage of the fact that here it already the weekend Friday Saturday weekend here So I think he you know playing for time But we did get a few statements kind of panic statements late last night as it became clear that something was underway and that Israel wasn part of it

the Office of the Israeli Prime Minister put out statements saying, no way, we're not withdrawing

So what we have for now, to be blunt with you, is a big American announcement

significant American prestige put into this, and the two relevant sides saying no

Self-awarded prestige. I know you're clear about that, but just for the avoidance of doubt

it's Donald Trump giving himself a massive pat on the back again. And his son-in-law

And his son-in-law. You're absolutely right, which brings us a little bit closer to the FIFA story

for reasons that I will reveal shortly. So what's the best... I'm obsessed with the FIFA story, James

Yeah, you and me both. We all are, actually, I think. But we haven't got time to talk about that, Noga

What's the best-case scenario then over the next week with regards to this

I mean, I've said this to you before. We still have no choice but to talk about it

as if Donald Trump was a normal president. And as you've just reminded us, of course, he isn't

But we still have no choice but to talk about it as if he is. So does Netanyahu have to say something at some point specifically about this or not

Yes, he does. And what will it be? Netanyahu, you know, Netanyahu is in terrible shape

The polls that came out today are worse than ever for him. He's being forced into election that he hoped that somehow he'd be able to postpone

And he just came back from a trip to the United States. He walked out of this White House meeting, you know, barely a meeting, no cameras

walking in through the back door. He walked out and said he had the best conversation of his life ever

with the best friend he's ever had in Israel. On and on about Donald Trump

Donald Trump didn't say a word again until last night when the Israeli Prime Minister's office said

Gaza didn't even come up in those meetings. It didn't take more than a few minutes for the White House to come out and say

yes, it did. Gaza was discussed. So there's a lot of friction

Netanyahu, both for internal political reasons, His opposition is screeching. He's going to have to say something and he's going to have to respond somehow to the White House

This is a huge move. He has promised his hardcore base that Israel wouldn't withdraw one millimeter from the 70 percent of Gaza it now is occupying

And Donald Trump is saying Hamas is going to lay down their weapons and Israel is going to leave

So this is going to have to be addressed in the next few hours in one way or another

And there it is. I mean, we're back where we started, in a way. While I have you, is there any point in me asking you what the best outcome in October's elections is for people who would really like to see peace

You can say no. I think, I have to answer you in a more nuanced way

Of course. I think that the state of Israel right now is really just a little bit beyond the precipice, over an abyss

And I think that what can give Israel a chance of being able to recreate itself

a kind of rebirth for a very broken state of Israel, will be a complete and absolute change of government

and the details of that, who would lead a different government, what direction we're going to

how much rot would still come out that we don't know about

and a new government would have to address, I can't answer those questions yet

but I can tell you that it does feel like a radical change

is absolutely required, or I think Israel very quickly will become something

that we don't know right now. Logitana Posky, we're always lucky to hear your insights

and your reports live there from Jerusalem. Thank you so much. And do stay safe

It is 11 o'clock. James O'Brien on LBC. Three minutes after 10 for you

Some breaking news. I was a bit distracted during the bulletin, so forgive me if this was actually just in the news bulletin

but the senior advisor to the FIFA president, Gianni Infantino, has resigned

writing as a senior advisor to the FIFA president, a former banker and a lifelong football fan

He's referencing his history as a banker because Infantino's plan essentially involves handing over the World Cup to bankers

I cannot stand by while FIFA considers selling a stake in the World Cup. And the question I asked you at the outset about what's the link between the Gaza story and the FIFA story is this

You heard Noga there reminding us that Jared Kushner, Donald Trump's son-in-law, is, I mean, quotes hilariously, end quotes, because there's nothing funny about any of this

except in a sort of grim gallows humour kind of way, is the negotiator in the Middle East

and has also been attached to or involved in dreams of turning the Gaza Strip

into some sort of luxury holiday destination. You'll remember the hideous film

that Donald Trump shared on social media. Who do you think is behind the plans

to sell the World Cup to, I mean, bankers, for want of a better word

financiers, whatever you want to call it? What do you think is the name at the top of that pyramid

And it's important to remember before I tell you that Yanni Infantino..

I think I got the time wrong then. Why does no one ever correct me? Did I get the time wrong? I said just after 10

Anyway, it's five minutes after 11. You have to remember that Yanni Infantino has been sucking up to Donald Trump

in a way that would make even GBB's journalists look unbiased. Annie Infantino's sycophantic approach to Donald Trump is, I mean, simultaneously hideous and hilarious

So there's something going on between Infantino and Trump. Trump has recently suggested that Infantino could be running the United Nations, I think

So who's behind the idea, being punted by Infantino, to flog the World Cup to financiers who would want it in order to make money out of it

money that currently, and this is not an entirely corruption-free pipeline, but currently makes its

way to individual football, international, national football associations. Yeah, it's Jared Kushner's brother. It's Joshua Kushner. So, if you were to construct a thesis alleging

that Trump's interests in any issue are always driven by the prospect of enrichment for his

closest circle and or himself you could potentially put both the gaza story today

and the fifa story yesterday and and ongoing of course with this resignation in the case for the

prosecution it is literally his son-in-law's brother who is behind the plan to carve up the

world cup and flog it to financiers hoping to make an enormous profit out of it while his actual son

in law is leading negotiations in the middle of the, he's the property developer, um, having

previously either expressed or been attached to, um, uh, hopes to turn the Gaza Strip into

some sort of holiday desto I mean you couldn make it up could you You couldn make it up Um and not Seven minutes after 11 is the time I think that we are going

I don't know what to do next, to be honest with you. I mean, there are a few stories around

I think that we've exhausted your interest in the Gaza story. There's not a lot you can say about it

I think we're moving rapidly towards something pretty close to consensus that what is going on now is utterly unconscionable

And the only people that can really stop it are Benjamin Netanyahu's government, and they don't want to

That, I think, accounts for pretty much 100% of the opinion of unbiased, informed people

Unfortunately, much of the discourse is still dominated by deeply ill-informed or misinformed and incredibly biased people

There's not a lot that I can do about that except keep chipping away with the truth

but I'll keep you up to date with any announcements or developments in that story

quite a lot of variations in Fantino's name Sicka Fantino that was the one I kept trying to remind myself to use

because it's the funniest but we've also got Psychopath Fantino which is a bit clumsier and a little bit harder to say

I think I'll stick with Sicka Fantino but I don't know what the phone-in is there

I don't personally think that there is one so I'm going to turn you back to a subject

that I actually really like I find it really fascinating. I don't know how you see yourself in relation to authority

It's quite often the case that people who like to think of themselves as rebellious or even anti-establishment

or possibly anti-authoritarian are nothing of the sort. Nigel Farage would be a classic example of this

wandering around the place claiming to be anti-establishment while he spent his entire life with his little face

squished up against the sweet shop window, begging, begging to be let inside

And then when they let him inside, he started moaning about the quality of the sweets and claiming that he wasn't being allowed

the really, really nice ones. And, you know, he dresses like a Dulwich College day boy's idea

of what the landed gentry looked like. He turns up at fox hunts and the like

and claims to be anti-establishment after... Well, I'm told, and I could be wrong

we've tried desperately to find anyone who can support Farage's claims that he gave up a lucrative career in the city

rather than that the city gave up on Nigel Farage. But he, you know, goes from public school to the city

to career politician and claims that he's anti-establishment while trounsering £5 million in secret

from a foreign-based billionaire and, of course, as yet defined or unconfirmed contributions

from a bloke who is a member of an aristocratic family. I think it was Richard Tyson who, in the same tweet

Did he establish his own anti-establishment credentials and the aristocratic heritage of the kid that calls Nigel Farage daddy

despite the fact that Nigel Farage, as far as we're aware, is not his daddy? And can he be an anti-establishment aristocrat

There it is. I mean, you can have an anti-establishment aristocrat. They look a lot like Tony Benn or Viscount Stansgate

as he would have been known if he hadn't surrendered his title. So an anti-establishment aristocrat, historically

is not going to be right-wing. unless they are... No, I can't think of anything

So you want to find an anti-establishment aristocrat, they are not funneling money into Nigel Farage's party coffers

or quite possibly his private bank accounts as well, because it might be that Christopher Harbourn is the only one we know about

and it turns out that actually loads of billionaires have been giving him money in the hope of policies

that coincidentally and miraculously further enrich them in the event of him becoming Prime Minister

I know if we are to find out about it, it won't be because he decides to tell us

And it's also perfectly possible that Christopher Harbourn is the only foreign-based billionaire to have secretly funneled money into Nigel Farage's private bank account

We may never know. We may never prove it. Like, I don't know. Can you prove a negative

But anyway, I think of myself as being quite anti-authority. I think of myself as being quite rebellious

My self-image is, you know, I will speak up against the bosses or against the government or whatever it may be

But I don't know that I am, actually. And I'll speak up for what I believe to be true

But I want to focus your attention. So think about what you think you are

Do you think you are? I don't mean bolshie. I don't mean like a sort of eternal teenager

and you're told what none of us really like being told what to do. Some people do like being told what to do, actually

That's a silly thing for me to say because it makes life much less complicated. And, of course, a lot of the most awful things

that have ever happened in the history of humanity have happened because of the people who quite like being told what to do

without having to waste any energy thinking about things or applying morality to a scenario or being curious

But if you think of yourself as being... I mean, the man

Who do you think of when I say the man? we're sticking it to the man

we're sticking it to the man who are you thinking bosses, suits, men in suits, bosses

I don't know but I would always in life like to think of myself as being

as being a rebel a rebel without applause on a scale of 1 to 10

don't text me, you will though how ridiculous am I sounding at the moment I've always liked to think of myself as a bit of a rebel

how ridiculous am I am I sounding ridiculous one of the most right wing people

I've ever met I can't tell you this story it wouldn't be fair you'll have to ask me in private everyone

thinks they're a bit of a rebel no do you think you're a bit of a rebel

do you think you'd stick up what would you do I mean would you

when the really bad stuff starts happening would you hide someone in your attic? Would you risk your own life

to protect what you believe in? I don't know. That's not the phone-in

Maybe we could do that another day. You're going to be a tiny little bit

surprised when I introduce the phone-in because I've set it up in

quite serious terms on a subject that is not that serious but I don't

know that if I... I've got this weird attitude to work based authority, right

I've got this, and this is a huge difference between my generation, which is

I think generation X and following generations. Most obviously I suppose generation Z and the millennials

If you're in generation Y do you feel really left out? No one ever

talks about you, do they? Is there a generation Y? Is there a generation Y

So I'm X, you're Z. Are you Z or you're a millennial

But Z is a thing, right? We talk about generation Z. Generation Z, if you've got to be all transatlantic

about it. Do we ever talk about Generation Y? Did we skip Y

If so, why? I don't know. Anyway, um... I think this is a huge difference

between Generation X and subsequent generations. And it's about what your... in your monologue

says this text, that you are a rebel without a pause. I got a brilliant text yesterday

that I forgot to read out. It was after I said that you know, back in the day, Brentford, where I

live in London, was best known for its gas works, which were flipping huge and right on the banks of

River Thames. And I forgot who sent it in, which wasn't fair of me

because it made me really, really chuckle during the break, and then I completely forgot about it

Someone sent in and said, Now, these days, Brentford is best known for its gas bag

which I took as an enormous compliment. But anyway, that's also quite good

In your monologues, writes Richard, you're a rebel without a pause. Do you know, I've got a..

It might have been Richard who sent in yesterday's joke as well about gas bags. So, carry on, Richard. We're loving your work

Generation Y are millennials. I'm sorry, I got a bit mixed up there. Of course they are

Generation Y are millennials. Generation Z, born after 2013. So, yeah, so the millennials and the Generation Z

What is this? Go on, have a get... Shall I take a break? I haven't told you what the topic is yet

but I've been around so many houses that I could probably get a job on one of those daytime TV property programmes

Yeah, go on, let's take a little break. I'll be back in a sec. James O'Brien on LBC

17 minutes after 11 is the time. I'm talking about working from home

there's all that stuff about what would you do in the event of the you know stormtroopers turning

up to carry away your neighbours would you hide your neighbours in your attic are you a rebel

do you think of yourself as being anti-establishment what on earth is this topic going to be about it's

going to be about something really juicy isn't it james so santander the bank uh as opposed to

Santandev, the genius. Santander have been taken over by another bank, by TSB, or is it the other way around

It is... I think it is actually the other way around. So, TSB staff are preparing to take legal action

against plans to force them to come to the office three days a week. And I find this story fascinating

for what I think is a largely generational divide. You know when we talk about the younger generation

not engaging in education, employment or training, and as Andy Burnham fully appreciates

it's the single most important issue of our age. There's some stories today, or one story today

about young carers. I said to you, there's no way there are a million kids

sitting at home twiddling their thumbs, messing around on their Playstations and laughing at taxpayers for subsidising their existences

Some of these kids will have fallen through cracks. Some of these kids will be terrified of leaving the house

Some of these kids will be crippled by anxiety and other mental health problems

Some of these kids just don't know what to do. Some of these kids have tried to engage with the world around them and failed

I mean, the different answers to why you are not in education, employment or training

would number almost as many as the people who are not in education, employment or training

And today we get yet more proof of that thesis with the news

that about 100,000 young adult care, well, I beg your pardon, about 300,000 people aged 16 to 24

are informal carers. And a huge number of them are going to not be, about a quarter of them

I think, are going to not be in education, employment or training. So you've got just

shy of 100,000 on that list that we can immediately take off the suspicion list. Oh

they sound a bit dodgy. They're swinging the lead. They're scroungers. They're not. They're looking after elderly people they're looking after older relatives that have um inadequate

state supplied care so i'm looking at this story about working from home about tsb staff preparing

to take legal action against plans to force them to come to the office three days a week and i'm

reflecting on the fact the reason i mentioned neats is that when i was young when i was first

in the workplace, I thought you had to do pretty much whatever your boss asked you to do, right

It could be that my job was a bit weird. My friend Henry once had to walk up and down the King's

Road wearing stiletto heels because there was some story, probably thinking back, it would be a

fashion week story and a man had appeared on the catwalk wearing stiletto heels. So the picture

editor thought it would be a good idea to send out a young reporter in stiletto heels to walk up and

down the king's road um another journalist who was on the daily star at the time uh who has gone on

to be incredibly an incredibly successful film director he made the the the film about kneecap

the irish rappers um he was sent out in a burka he was sent and i remember the story he told it

because he was quite a smoker he taped a packet of marlborough lights to his bicep so that he could

while walking up and down in a full burqa and face covering

he could stop off every now and then for a crafty smoke. So these, and I don't know

I think he looked back on that with a degree of embarrassment, but I don't think he realised at the time

that he should never have been asked to do that any more than, I mean, basically, at the time

we were desperate to get our faces in the paper, to get our names in the paper. We were desperate for a byline

I did one. God, I did one. when, um, yeah, this was a bit embarrassing, actually

Have you ever seen those things advertised in the back of the paper where they say that you'll lose weight by sticking things to your body

and they'll do little electrical pulses? Have you ever seen that? Have you seen that

I think they haven't really been around for a while. I don't, recently. And anyway, I did a before and after on that

And between you and me, I'd forgotten to do it every night. And I didn't get many bylines at the time

because I was on the gossip column and the gossip column doesn't have bylines. So I stuck my hand up and said, oh, I'll do that

And then I went home and I put them on. It's slightly uncomfortable, a bit twingy

And then I forgot all about it for a couple of weeks when the picture editor came around and said, should we do the after picture now

So they did a before picture of me with these things stuck to my body. And my moobs in those days were sadly still

I mean, I think they were in evidence, but they were quite early, early days

And then they came back a month later, I think, and took another picture of me

And if anything, I'd put on a few pounds since I'd started the diet thing

So I said yes to that. I would not say yes to that now. You know, if you want to see my moobs

you can pay like everybody else does. I wouldn't say... There were things I would not say yes to

But I felt that in the workplace... And I'd had a tricky time getting into journalism

as in I didn't get into it until a little bit later than scheduled and planned

and I was beginning to give up on it and think about what else I was going to do. When I was in retail

if the boss said, can you drop this off at a hotel on your way home

even though I wouldn't be on the clock when I went, you know, I'd hop off the tube

I'd get on it at Piccadilly Circus, someone's hotel was in Knightsbridge, I'd leave the shop at six o'clock

I'd get off at Knightsbridge, drop it off at the park tower, not get paid for that

I never minded. I always thought, yeah, show willing. Do what the boss wants

That's how you get ahead in life. that was what I was actually taught I think dad used to say to me when I really early doors

getting shifts or work experience on newspapers and I'd ring him up and I'd say I'm not doing

anything dad I'm not doing it they're not asking me to do anything and dad would say looking back

probably more out of reassurance than um anything else he'd say you're there if in case they need

you son and newspapers in those days were very well staffed hard though that is to believe these days You there in case they need you son And so you think any opportunity put your hand up I do that So this is why I don think I actually much of a rebel when I stop to think about it

because in the workplace I've always pretty much done what I'm told. It's probably one of the reasons I love this job so much

because no one ever tells me what to do. I hope I haven't jinxed it

so I I come at these stories about working from home really conflicted

because I kind of think it's your boss who makes the decision of where you work

not you and yet I know looking back on lockdown an awful lot of the

weight that was being put behind anti-working from home came from the newspapers who of course

weren't being sold. So one of the reasons why Boris Johnson was so anti-working from

home was because he is enthralled to his editors and colleagues on newspapers. And a little thing about

working from home is you don't buy a newspaper on your way into work. The Evening Standard

in London, London has I have to do it myself now, Keith's on a break

The Evening Standard in London has never, London has never recovered. Partly because it is owned

as a sort of vanity project by that son of a KGB spy

that Boris Johnson put in the House of Lords. And partly, through no fault of its own, it got absolutely kebabbed by lockdown

because the habit of picking one up, and it was free, I think, by then

just disappears if you're not doing the commute. So I kind of was on the side of the working from homers

during lockdown on the grounds that it made you feel safer and it didn't really impact upon your productivity

as all of the early research showed. Do you remember the call we took from an office manager in about the third or fourth week of lockdown who said they've made me redundant

I said, what? He said, they've made me redundant. I was the office manager. I'm the only one who can't work from home

We've all been working home for a month. Productivity's gone up. So the bosses have decided that we're never moving back into the office. Everybody's working from home

He said, I think they forgot about me. I'm the office manager. You can't do that from home, James. Any more than you can drive a train

Quite a lot of the people who will be very dishonest about working from home suddenly discovered this enormous affection for train drivers during lockdown

Rather than admitting that they were essentially doing the bidding of the newspaper owners by parroting the lines from the newspapers about why nobody should be able to work from home

they'd say things like, well, train drive, won't somebody think of the train drivers? But of course, when the train drivers ask us to think of them

when they're undertaking industrial action, because these people are essentially doing the bidding of the newspaper owners

they're usually the first to say, down with all train drivers down with all train drivers

this is an old fashioned phoning, alright, I've set it up in a rather roundabout and unlikely fashion

and it has a hinge if you like, or a peg it is because TSB staff

are preparing to take legal action against their new bosses because when they worked for TSB

they were allowed to work from home and now they work for Santander

they are being told that they have to come into the office for three days a week. So they'll only be allowed to homework

for two days a week. At the moment, some of them are home working for five days a week or four days

a week. There will be things in place like childcare arrangements and medical scenarios

and family reasons. But that said, it's probably fair to say that these people were working in the

office five to ten years ago or the people doing their job was were working in the office five or

ten years ago i want you to answer this question i want you to answer it honestly and you can either

bring personal experience into it or you can bring philosophy into it which is essentially what i'm

doing who should decide where you work and if the if the playing field is level right

as in it is not in any way arguable that there's going to be a measurable difference in your

productivity whether you're at work or at home whether you're at work at work or at work at home

who should actually decide because i i am 75 employer on this even though i'm normally on

the side of the well i think i'm on the side of the workers right in life so if we were working

together and the boss was being a wally i would stand up and say so even when i was relatively

junior in organizations i say you can't do that or you can't talk to her like that or if you've

got a problem with this take it up with me don't take it up with someone more junior i would i would be on the side of the workers in the workplace big believer in trade unions

but if you say to me who's who decides where you work you or your boss

I think it's the boss's the boss is paying your wages, right

The boss is in charge of you. The boss owns you for the 8 at no

Is that? Does this stick in your millennial craw? Is it an age thing, this

They give you money for you. 034560973 I think young people will

disagree with me. I think millennials and Generation Zs will disagree with me. I think you, and I think

I want to be more like you. I want my children to be like you. I don't

want them to think that their boss owns them for eight hours a day. It has to be a

relationship. It has to be two-way traffic. But I'm not even convincing myself

I'm not even convincing myself. I think, given the size of my audience, if I told the boss that I

wanted to work from home, then probably these days they'd set up a studio in my back garden

and I'd be able to work from home. But I don't want to, so we'll never find out there's a lot going on here you can bring any dimension or angle to it if you want but

and also if you're a boss tell me i'm an idiot or tell me i'm absolutely right and you wish you had

more people on your payroll like me who fully understand that when you say jump i say how high

oh three four five six oh six oh nine seven three i'm embarrassed by what i just said

i am i was raised in a way and my early experiences in the workplace were such that i look upon the

transaction that takes place when you give me a wage as being one that allows you to tell me what

to do i'm not going to walk up and down king's road in stiletto heels or march around london

in a burka for example why is everyone thinking of henry riley at this point why is everyone

why is everyone thinking that sounds like the sort of thing henry riley might do on the breakfast show um but henry is brilliant at what he does as you know he's brilliant at everything henry it's

driving me crazy actually the amount of people wasting their time sending compliments for henry

Riley into my show when he's sitting in the studio. But he's a very

good example of someone who is getting ahead by doing everything, which is a little bit

what I was like when I was younger. So, if the boss

says you're coming into the office, you say, yeah, right, you are boss, yes sir

no sir, three bags full sir. Unless you're working for TSB, in which case you say, right, we're taking

you to court. We want to work from home. We want to carry on

working from home. 0345 6060 973 It's a horrible philosophy James says Jamie

No boss ever owned me and I older than you Well they did They just did you might not like it but they give you money you give them hours of your life no

And during those hours of your life, you do what you're told, as long as it's legal. I think. I like

these topics, because you know you can trust me. I got it a bit wrong yesterday. Well, I meant what I

said yesterday, but it's hard to provide context sometimes. When I was talking about

how, listen, this is awful, we've got to do something about the extreme heat

but at the same time, an awful lot of people are acknowledging the fact that their home

life feels like a holiday now sometimes because of the heat. So I've got these

words coming out of my mouth that I really mean, but as I say them to you

I feel like I'm curdling inside. What do you think? Who owns who

Who decides where you work? You or the person paying your wages

0345 6060 So 973 is the number you need. Here's Dominic Ellis with your headline

James O'Brien on LBC. I don't think Generation Alpha are going to have much to say about this

given that the oldest member of Generation Alpha is currently 13. OK, so we can leave them out of it

You write out, you point out quite correctly, I probably have to get over the idea that the millennials are some sort of youthful cohort

given that you could be 45 if you're a millennial. But you'd still be younger than me as a member of Generation X

So 1965 to 1980, Generation X, I think you will be much more likely to think that the boss decides whether you work at home or work at work

Millennial, born between 1981 and 1996, you're probably wobbling. Generation Z, born between 1997 and 2012, you're absolutely adamant that you should be deciding where you work

if it can be demonstrated that it makes no absolute difference to your productivity

Discuss. I've got something a little bit weird. I know what you're thinking

is he ever going to shut up and take a call? Even the producer is thinking that

And the switchboard is full. Actually, that's not true. Line two has just been vacated

So you can grab line two if you're really quick. So it's not as if I'm doing it to cover up the fact

that no one's ringing me. As some presenters on other radio stations

have been known to do. Do you know, on some radio stations, they even phone people who've texted in

and beg them to come on the programme and pretend that they've just rung in

I find that almost impossible to believe. but apparently that goes on at other radio stations

Some days I just feel that I could talk forever. Do you ever get that

I mean, I'm in the right job, aren't I? You've got to be honest. But some days, it doesn't happen very often

but you've probably guessed that it's happening now. I think I could talk forever. I think we could do some sort of charity thing

for make some noise. How long can James talk for? No sleep, no food

I just have a slurp of tea or a quick bite of sausage roll. My own producer has written on the screen

God help us all. Which is, I think, probably speaking for many

So don't worry, I'm not doing it now. Leroy's in rice slip. Leroy, make it snappy, mate

I've got a lot to say. Yeah, I was clean shaven when you started

Anyway, where was I? Go on. I think it's the boss who decides without a doubt

This is the guy who you go to and you tell him everything he wants to hear. You dress up, you smile, you say that you'll clean the toilet if necessary

because you really want the job. And then all this stuff and you're saying, oh, well, no, I can't actually come in

Like, you know, don't be ridiculous. I think that's an appalling way and it's really silly

I'm surprised it's even a conversation, to be honest with you. The other thing that I literally do despair at

and I work with NEATS, I work in schools and so on and so forth, is that the kids are missing out on the interaction

the banser, or the bans, as you said, I think, yesterday, that people have in the office

how to take the mick out of each other, how to have fun, how to, you know, go out

and everyone goes out on a Friday, and you have a drink in a local pub, and you have a chat

That is, we are just, as a species, it makes me so sad

There are two conversations here. Go on. Aren't there? because, I mean, the pros and cons of homeworking

that's an interesting conversation. And I think my position on this has shifted since lockdown

And I do think that you miss out on something by not... I mean, I wouldn't have met my wife

if we were all working from home on the Daily Express back in the late..

Now, well, for me... So I do buy that. But the world changes and you make connections elsewhere

and obviously the neats that we worry about almost every day at the moment

are not making their connections elsewhere. So yes, but that's not really what we're talking about today

It's the very specific question of who decides where you work with no measurable difference in productivity or efficiency

And you're like me, which makes me think, Leroy, that you're aged between 45 and 60

Yeah, you're spot on. I'm 57. Yeah. Yes. I work with young people

I know you do but I don't want them to think I mean I use the word own

which is a terrible I didn't mean you own the person I just mean you own those hours

you own their activity for those hours and that I mean even as I say the words

I curdle a bit because I do mean it but I kind of envy the kids

who don't think that they are property as it were of employers

and yet there it is you do it you're right you say you're the boss

you do what you want You're giving me money. Yeah. I'll do what you want, within reason or within legal parameters

Thanks, man. 11.30. You can go and have a shave now, Leroy. It's 11.39

I hope my bosses aren't listening. Goodness knows what they'll ask me to do at the end of the programme as a consequence of me setting out this particular store

But I'm not really... No, let's just really confine it to where you are

There are things I'd say no to. You know, there are things I would not countenance. I'm not going to do things

But when I was young, starting out, I would have said yes to things that I wouldn't say yes to now

But what we're looking at now, right now, is the straightforward question of who decides

Should the employer be able to lay down the law? Should they be able to absolutely lay down the law

on you coming to work when you would much rather and even have previously done all of your work from home

Ben's in Wolverhampton. Ben, what do you think? Hiya, James. Yeah, I'm a full-time working from home guy

I've been working from home for three years full-time in my office

We're a video game developer. Oh, cool. So it's very remote. Yeah. We don't have an actual in-person office

I have done in-person office work in different studios. My biggest thing is that the major thing that I noticed

when I worked at a studio before was the travel time. I lost so much time traveling to and from my office

You're doing pros and cons. I'm doing the philosophy. You're doing the pros and cons

Yeah, yeah. So if you, I mean, do you work for yourself or do you work for, do you have an employer

Yes, I have an employer. Right, so if they announce tomorrow, right, we're changing everything, we're all working in the office

We're going to get, let me find somewhere quite pleasant near Wolverhampton. We're all moving to Willenhall in the morning

We've got a lovely new building in Willenhall, and I want you in there at least three days a week, Ben

What does Ben say? Well, see, that's the thing. See it doesn actually make sense for industries like my own No you doing pros and cons You doing pros and cons I doing the philosophy They ordered you They want you in Willinghall at 10 o Monday morning What are you going to do

I probably would. I'm not going to lie. I probably would. Because deep down you know it's their call, not yours

Well, it's also because I actually really like my job. Yeah, that's probably a factor

And I think a lot of people, they don't really... Like, especially with TSB, right

I can't speak for them. But I'm going to assume that because they're in an office, they may be answering calls

it's not the best job, it's not the best work and they don't get time at home

they barely get enough time to get home eat dinner, go to bed so that's, you know, it's not a good job

but that's all they've got sometimes Maybe I'm being an idiot actually

and insisting that we don't bring pros and cons into it Yeah, I mean

You don't have to call me an idiot, but you can if you want because of course it is going to be about

so the reason why TSB or Santander actually are being unreasonable is because

the benefits of working from home are so big and so obvious, and to strip people of them is just cruel and unnecessary

Exactly. I would say that, like, you know, there's been so many studies come out that say that productivity is actually higher at home

I can speak to myself and say 100% it's higher. When I was in office, and this isn't just a slight to my work ethic

but when I was in office, you fall into chats, you walk around, you chat to your mates, but when you're at home

you are so much more focused, I find. Yeah, I mean, we are walking a tightrope between the philosophy of it

or the ethics of it, in fact, which is a branch of philosophy, and the simple pros and cons of it

It's a pretty stark contrast. TSB staff were allowed to work entirely from home

And you're right, they're almost certain to be doing sort of call centre

customer service type roles, aren't they? Whereas Santander have flexible work, literally require all staff to work from the office for at least three days a week

as part of rules they introduced in 2024. Now, the rules, the reason why I'm being an idiot for insisting

that we don't bring pros and cons into it, the rules may be a consequence of the pros and cons

They may have concluded in 2024 that the business was better when people were coming into the office

than it was when they were working from home. In which case, when they say to you, I'm terribly sorry

you've had a wonderful time of it for the last few years, but those days are over, and they say, I've got childcare issues

I've got long commutes, you know, my cost of living will be harder

if you make me come to work and back every day. The boss, the employer

is entitled to turn around and say, tough. That's how I want it. If you don't like

it, you can get a job somewhere else. Yeah. I would like to say

actually, that's a good point you said about childcare, because I met my wife thanks to my working from home situation

Oh, really? And now we're expecting our first child. Wow. How did that happen? What did she do? Was she an Avon lady

No, no. We just got chatting on like a meet-up online. Oh, lovely

Yeah, so we're expecting our first child now, and genuinely, if I wasn't working from home

we would not be able to have a child she'd be in the office you know if childcare costs so much these days

it's so hard to get into any sort of nursery because I'm at home I will be able to look after our baby

I think probably it is a mistake to exclude the pros and cons

from this conversation because the argument that Santander are being unreasonable hinges upon things like the things that Ben

has just told us. Ben while I've got you what kind of game are you working on at the moment? Oh, I can't say it right now

Yes, you can. No one's listening. Go on. Give me a clue. It's an actual adventure, I'll say that

Is it part of a franchise? Would I know any of the names involved? No, a brand new franchise

Is it really? Very exciting. What does your day involve? Don't tell me any more that would embarrass you

but I know nothing about... When I was about... How old are you now? I'm turning 30 in November

Yeah, you see. There it is. I mean, that fits with my generational approach to this question in general

but when I was about 12 or 13, I chose a path in life

that I sometimes regret. I was a very, very early adopter of video games

Not just playing them, but I used to write. They used to print, can you believe this, in magazines

They used to print. I suppose it wasn't even code, it was basic that you were using

And you had to go through it. So there'd be like four pages of a magazine. And you'd type it all in on the Spectrum's little rubber-keyed keyboard

And obviously you'd make a mistake. And you'd have to go through it all again. And you'd do it for days

and at the end of it, you'd get a really basic binary game. And I looked into it and I thought about

should I go into computer games as a career? I even set up a little video games magazine

when I was at boarding school, and I didn't do it. And that's one of the big paths not taken for me

So just, what does your day involve? Are you tweaking things? What does it mean when you say, I mean

because I just finished First Light. Have you played First Light yet

Oh, yes, First Light's fantastic. I finished that, And one of my daughters came into the room as the credits were rolling

And we sat there and said, good grief. I mean, it's bigger than a film now, the credits at the end

And if you're working from home and you're doing your job, what is your job and how are you managed

I'm an animator. Wow, that's so cool. I'm making the move. Yeah

But yeah, we just, you know, we sync up on a daily basis. We've got producers

we've got all sorts we're only a small studio there's about 20 of us yeah but I've worked at like

700 man studios before that and that was I'm so jealous I know you're doing a great job

I know I love my job I couldn't really do both could I but I mean that is so exciting

what you do you know the only thing that could make your job better what's that if you're based in Willinghall

it's 11.47 thank you Ben James O'Brien on LBC 10 to 12

is the time you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC my rule is

right Scott I never ask anyone to do anything that I wouldn't do. Although, having said that

I'm always cleaning the toilet at the shop because I wouldn't ask anyone else to do that

What a mug I must be. Yeah, I mean, I suppose it doesn't necessarily

address the question of who decides where you work, you or the boss

If you're just tuning in, you missed an absolute legend of an introduction on this

It lasted about an hour and a half. If you've just tuned in, TSB staff are taking legal action

against their new employers because their bank has been taken over by Santander

because they've been working from home for five days a week and Santander say they have

to come into the office for three days a week. In a way, I'm asking whose side you're on

Simon's in Dover. Simon, what do you think? Hi, James. First time caller

A little bit nervous. It's only me. Thanks for having me. You're very welcome. I love it when you bring up the term, you know

the philosophical point of view. So, if we look at it rather than

because I've studied philosophy, a little less sort of wishy-washy and say

well, let's look at the ethics of it. Yes. So when you get a job, you sign a contract

Yes. So obviously the TSB people won't be going to Santander and going to court some kind of it's fair, it's not fair

kind of sort of whingy approach to it. They'll be looking at the contracts and saying

are there legal points here where Santander have effectively changed the contract of employment

I don't think you're right. I don't think, no. I mean, the union, it's the TBU union that's challenging the mandate through an employment tribunal

The Times reported yesterday they've raised concerns that some employees would be unable to change their arrangements for family or medical reasons

If it was a straight breach of contract, I think it would be open and shut, wouldn't it

If your contract said you decide where you work and then they turned up and said, no, you don't

then it would be a very different proposition? Well, I think the contracts probably will say

the power of your employer to determine where you work and they'll refer to various policies

And it's the policies that then become a bit of a vagary to me

because your contract says you'll do this, that and the other and you will follow all the latest policies

But that enables the organisation sometimes to change their policies and then, as you've just said, the question is

is a change of policy, effectively a change of contract. So let me give you an example

So it's a grey area, essentially, which is why the lawyers will get paid. That's why the lawyers are going to get paid

Exactly. So if you take an example, if you were hired by a TSB that work from home

you may have decided that you would take a potentially lower wage

and TSB may have accepted, you know, put out job specs with lower pay

because you don't have to pay the commute costs and you get the work-life balance

So then if you've got that and you take on that role, then ethically, if they change that

you're suddenly going to be faced with extra costs that you weren't at the time you were employed

That feels unfair, right? And that is unfair, but it may not still be reflected in the contract

And that's probably where the sort of philosophical point comes is, do you follow the letter of the contract

in which case you can vote with your feet? You know, the contract says the boss gets to decide

That's what the policy is. Even if you took it on as a full-time, you vote with your feet, you resign

The little bit of cynical in me says these kinds of things occur in mergers and acquisitions

So to accelerate the voluntary redundancy process. Exactly right. Yeah, I see where you went there

They need to thin it out a bit. They don't, very rarely do you see the mergers on a growth perspective, especially with banks

So they'll be looking to consolidate in certain areas. And if they can shake out some people off the back of this

and no doubt they've been caught by surprise with this court action to try and stop that happening

I mean, you're being very detailed and evidence-driven. Let me tempt you away from that

What's your gut instinct? A straight-up question. Who decides where you work, you or your boss

I believe the boss does. Yeah, I do too. And that means you're aged between 45 and 60

That is correct. Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? Yeah. I don't, by the way, necessarily think that while they have the rights, that that is a good thing

No, there's pros and cons. Exactly. I've worked for quite a few people, and one of the worst things that I've experienced in Back to the Office three days a week

is that you drag back to the office three days a week, but the rest of your team aren't in that day

and you spend the entire day sat alone on a desk, video conferencing everybody who's not in the office

It's just weird. And then you get back on the train and go home again. Yes

And that is the reality I've had in the last two years at various places

that you find yourself meeting your obligation, but it is an entirely pointless journey

And so you get smart. You have to sort of set up meetings and coordinate with your teams

and make that time in the office valuable. Yeah, I mean, that's a different phone-in, actually

Why would bosses want to do this when it has such a deleterious impact on their employees' lives

And there will be answers to that question, of course. It's not rhetorical. They'll say, well, because from our point of view

the pros outweigh the cons, and the cons are going to be sucked up by the staff, whereas the pros are to the benefit of the business

But, well, great call. Thank you, Simon. I don't know what you were nervous about. It was a sparkling debut

I look forward to your sophomore call to the programme. 11.56 is the time

Stephen is in Walthamstow. Stephen, who decides? The boss, certainly. How old are you

I mean, I think your previous call, I am 48. Yeah, I see. Can we squeeze in a couple of younger callers before we go

Because this is just ridiculous. I'm just being proved right about everything again. Carry on, Stephen

Yeah, I mean, I think your previous call has taken the wind out of my sails. He said a lot of things that I've been thinking

The employer absolutely has the right to decide. But I know colleagues that I work with right now that have decided to live a lot further away from our office

Yeah. You know, it's massively changed their cost of living. has massively changed their arrangements of their life

And then we do exactly, you know, again, as your previous caller said, you go into the office and then you video call people from the office

Well, why are we all subscribing to the idea that it's right for the boss to have this power

when we're then coming up with examples as to why the boss shouldn't exercise it? I mean..

What if your colleagues who've moved miles away and what if your company got bought tomorrow

and the new owner said, I'm terribly sorry, I appreciate that you've moved to Loch Ness

in order to enjoy a better quality of life, but I need you back in the office in Walthamstow

on Monday morning at 10 o'clock. Whose side would you be on then? I mean, I think that's an unreasonable..

How dare you question the parameters of my example. Whose side would you be on

In that case, I'm certainly on the employee side. Yeah, you see? You see? Yeah

I just, I mean, I think it's moving goalposts, right? Well, that's what they'll be arguing

That's what the TSB staff will be arguing. they'll be saying we have the goalposts in place on our pitch and you've come in and bought the

pitch and now you're moving the goalposts to go from five days a week at home to three days a week

in the office they could be living in loch ness they might you know i mean it's unlikely i grant

you it's a long way from walthamstow but the point stands i mean i i do i do have a colleague who lives

in somewhere almost that remote i'm not going to name names or names you can if you want but

no one will notice but i take your point so what happens new boss tomorrow says you've got to come

I'm in the office 10 o'clock Monday morning. Three days. Three days a week from now on

Well, generally what happens is that people just don't obey the rules. That's what happens in my office

It's not on my watch, mate. Not under my glorious rule. You'd be out on your ear

Well, I'm in charge. You're in the office three days a week. So you're actually..

You've talked yourself out of your own position. You're now on the side of the workers. I've always been on the side of the workers, James

You and me both, Stephen. Power to the people! It's coming up to 11.59

I squeeze in a 24-year-old, I think. Jake's in Didsbury. What do I know in Didsbury

Anyway, carry on, Jake. What do you reckon? I'm on my boss's side

There you go. There's a young man. There's a young man you want on the payroll. Carry on, Jake

I just believe that there's someone always better that could replace you. Everyone could just be a number

And if I'm not willing to do my part, then what's the point in employing me

Yeah. Yeah, and that would involve... I mean, even if you thought he was an idiot for insisting that you come into work

because it's obviously better for you not to and you get more work done and you're a happier employee

If that's what he wants or she wants, that's what you do

Exactly. I mean, I live in Scarborough, which is quite a way from where I'm working

And I've been up in Devon, I've been in Cornwall all week

doing my job for my boss, who's short on engineers, and I've got no qualms with doing that

I signed up to a role. Yeah, that's different, though. That's different

What if you had signed up to a very different role and your boss sold the company, and I appreciate that the kind of engineering you do is not

a job you can do from home, so I need you to come on a journey of the imagination with

me, Jake. You were desk-based and you were working from home for, let's say, if you're

24 so for the last four years He sells the business new owners come in and say right you need to be in the office Then whose side are you on I agree Right okay Why should I choose where I work if I been employed to do a job

It's my boss's stance to make you do that job. Yeah, and I now want to argue with you, despite the fact that you're perfectly and clearly articulating the position that I held exactly one hour ago

than there was me giving Steve a bit of a tickle for suggesting that he talked himself out of his own position

I kind of... You'd want Jake on the payroll because he's going to do what you want

but would you also be saying, mate, get off your knees. Stop being such a serf

Stop doffing the carpenter. I don't know is the short answer to this. I'm personally conflicted by it

which is why I envy the certainty, whichever side of the argument you're on, because certainty is usually a lot easier to live with than confusion

Anyway, power to the people. It's coming up to 12 minutes. It's Friday. I don't know why I'm DMOB happy

I'm back in work next week on Monday. I'm off to the seaside tonight, that's probably why

So I've got a very Friday-feeling story for you after this. James O'Brien on LBC

Four minutes after 12 is the time. But before we get stuck into the next conversation

which is going to be something along the lines of why does it matter

And I'm looking at a story about spelling and grammar. Why? Why does it matter

which is a very odd position to find myself in, given that I used to be something of a sort of grammar fascist

But before we get into that, just reflecting on yesterday's programme, and one of the great elephants in the room of international public discourse

is the impact of climate change on migration. And one of our callers mentioned it yesterday

And I'm looking at the footage of border crossings in the Spanish enclave

I think that's the right word. that I'll probably mispronounce, of Ceuta

which I think is, is it within Morocco? There is a word for this

It came up in the New York Times crossword last week. I think it's enclave. I think enclave is the word

Or autoclave? No, that's something completely different. Stop writing words on my screen

that don't help me express myself more clearly. And the reason why there are more and more people

moving across the planet, the reasons are are multiple the reasons are myriad but increasingly people are going to be

moving from inhabitable to habitable and there was something about the footage

that shook me to my core this sort of wave of humanity breaking through a border and and flooding

in to a territory that is a part of a country that is nowhere near as inhospitable as the parts

of the world that they come from. Listen, I'm not suggesting for a minute that they're all climate refugees. Of course I'm not. But that is the way that we're going as a planet. It's another reason

why we must pray for the sense of urgency that's been lacking from so much of this discourse for

years to be achieved imminently, immediately. So tens of thousands of people entering Spanish

territory and doing so in, you know, by any means possible, swimming, wading, clambering

breaking in, if you like, to Spanish territory. And of course, there'll be plenty of people popping

up to tell you that they're all rapists or they're all burglars or they're all scum or they're all

subhuman or they're all inhuman people have been doing that about various sections of society

since time immemorial sometimes it leads to holocaust sometimes it leads to electoral success

sometimes it leads to both sometimes it leads to pogroms sometimes it leads to ethnic cleansing

sometimes it leads to all of the above um but they are human beings and if if the cards had

been dealt differently it's an exclave not an enclave it's an exclave that was the word i think

that was the word that came up in the new york times crossword i do old one sometimes so it may

not have been this week i may have got that one out of the archive but um it's a great word right

if you're a crossword doer or indeed a scrabble player exclave uh and and that just struck me

because of course no one i don't think has brought the climate into the conversation about this

story in um in seuta seuta seuta seuta uh tens of thousands of of human beings uh entering spanish

territory, the exclave of Ceuta, which is, I think, borders Morocco. And that's what it's

going to look like. There's that horrible line, I may share it with you before the end of the

programme. I wanted to share that Jonathan Miller thing with you, with Enoch Powell as well this

week, is that that's what happens. When you see footage like this, populists get really excited

And they start, well, if we don't start deporting people, then that's going to happen here. And

listen, you know, the world needs to come up with answers to these problems

But the answer is unlikely to be, the lasting answer is unlikely to be

one that the populists come up with. I want to move on to something completely different now

It's a Lucy Powell story. The new education secretary has suggested that

an ability to communicate is more important than specific aspects of grammar

An ability to communicate is more important than specific aspects of grammar

It's funny, I was on swapping a few WhatsApps the other day

and it was yesterday actually. I'm just going to find the message

because I think he was unfairly maligning me. so so Wayne my mate Wayne sent me a message and he said there instead of there

t-h-e-r-i-r instead of t-h-e-r-e and he corrected it immediately and said I didn't want the

grammar fascists to come after me and then he said and by that of course I mean you O'Brien

and I thought I've never done that to a mate I've done it on air which probably makes me a bit

at best a bit of a pedant I've actually stopped doing it even with the racists because racists

can be dyslexic too so even when i get a really really illiterate message um i've i've stopped

pointing out i mean i've tried to stop because occasionally i can't help myself

i'll say a word and then i'll go spelt wrong obviously because there is you know i used to

think there was a correlation between intelligence and racism but then of course i realized that far

from it uh so it's well maybe intelligence but certainly some highly educated people are

incredibly. It's Quetta. I think lots of people have probably been ringing in to teach me how to

pronounce that word. Quetta. Well, now everyone's saying it's actually Thueta. I'll forget it. Anyway, it's spelled C-U-E-T-A

And that's quite pertinent to the conversation that we're about to have, actually. Because Lucy Powell is suggesting that the spelling test for primary school leavers is

too obscure and indeed draconian she has argued or is arguing that children should be taught how

to communicate rather than the really strict and specific aspects of grammar The producer of this program has asked me repeatedly to correct her

when she deploys grammar incorrectly, and I have repeatedly refused because I think it makes me look like an arse

And, you know, what if someone's listening? I have enough trouble looking like that without actually adding to the illusion

I think I'll go with. But, I mean, how would it sound to you if you were like

walking past and Eleanor had said something grammatically incorrect and you heard me correcting

her I don't think I even do it to my own children anymore and this is quite an odd development for

me because if you'd met me 20 years ago or if you'd tuned into this program when I started

I'd have been biting my tongue all the time I mean you can't say that and and then people would say

to me I remember taking a call about 20 minutes ago 20 minutes ago about 20 years ago

from an academic who was marking papers. So remember, I'd be into my 30s by now

so I'm like 14 years out of academia, or say a decade out of academia

And I took a call from a teacher who was saying, oh, I don't bother correcting spelling now

on university-level essays, undergraduate-level essays. I don't bother correcting spelling now. And I kind of went bonkers

I said, you what? How dare you draw a salary as a member of the teaching profession

How dare you call yourself a professor? What do you mean you don't correct spelling

Whatever next, civilisation as we know it is crumbling about our ears

And, um, I think I might have been wrong. She said, look, spelling's obviously important, good grammar

I'm sure you want to talk to me about that as well, and spelling. I think what I've talked about in the past are some aspects of the sats

the standard assessment tests and the spelling and grammar test in that

is particularly obscure parts I don't know that we need the specifics of it

because the central question I'm going to ask you is not is she right or is she wrong

it's why does it matter why does it matter I will think less of you

if you send me really obviously misspelled messages and then I will remind myself

that you might be dyslexic. And I will almost always review my opinion of you

unless the message that you've sent me is actually substantively toxic. So if you're a massive racist

and you send me like 300 messages a day telling me that you're going to complain about how mean I am to Nigel Farage

then I'm not going to think more of you when I remember that you might be dyslexic

and not just very bad. I nearly said thick then. Poorly educated

not your fault. Dyslexic, not your fault. Racist, not entirely your fault

So why does it matter? Or indeed, does it matter? Spelling and grammar

If I understand what you mean, you send me a message or you give me a ring

you talk to me, I've never corrected anyone. Could you imagine if I started doing that? Someone sort of rang in and they had a, you know

very much a regional patois. And I started saying, oh, you can't say that

I think you mean this. I'd sound like an absolute plum. And don't say you already do, James

because I'd sound like even more of a plum than I already do. So why does it matter

No, that's not the question, is it? One of the cleverest organisms I've ever encountered, Yoda

he had terrible grammar in fact, terrible grammar had he no one ever criticises Yoda

for his grammar and he's like intergalactically clever right? clever is he

so if it's alright for Yoda if it's good enough for Yoda

good enough for you is it not why? 03456060973 is the number you need

does it matter? does it matter? spelling and grammar Do they matter

Matter do they? They matter do. If you know, and it's not about not being able to understand me

If I can understand you, does it matter that you've spelt all the words wrong

or constructed your sentences incorrectly? Says who incorrectly? Who made the rules in the first place

So I've got this weird thing. And it's a bit like the conversation about working from home, actually, I realise now

Don't worry, I'm going to hit my marks on this one, and I do want to start taking calls. I'm not going to do a half an hour introduction, even though I am very much in a mood where I feel I could talk all day and take no calls at all ever again

Perish the thought. But tell me why it matters. Because I kind of feel that it does intellectually, but my guts, my bones are saying, James, why does it matter

And then I came up with that genius thing about Yoda. I don't know where that came from

came from that, I do not know where why does it matter

does it matter? does it actually matter? and if you were going to say yes to that

then why does it matter? if I understand exactly what you mean

who cares whether or not you can spell it or construct your sentences correctly answer, I thought I did

I kind of still do but I can't tell you why because I'm showing off how educated I am

on how many books I read so what? could read loads of books and still be a really nasty piece of work

0345 6060 973 if you don't want a half an hour introduction to this one

because I've got nothing else to say I'll just say all the same things again in a slightly different order which brings us back to Yoda

then you better ring me now it's 12.17 18 minutes after 12

Matt's put me in my place all the way from Northampton Yoda, James, was a 900 year old alien

who whirled a light green stick around better than anyone else if you corrected his grammar

he could likely outsmart you or cut you limb from limb So it's not the zinger you thought

It's good enough for Yoda. It's good enough for me. It's good enough for Yoda. It's good enough for me

Why? Why does grammar and spelling matter? I kind of sense it does, but I couldn't tell you why

Sandra's in Borden. Sandra, what do you reckon? Hi, James. Thanks for taking my call

I've not spoken to you before. I'm unique. Why not? It's the big time now

It's the big time now, Sandra. It's the big don't blow it. This is the big one

Come on. And Yoda's put me off. Go on. What's going on? I used to work in higher education

and when you sift through job applications as a human in higher education

you immediately take a view of somebody who has poor spelling. Yeah, of course you do

And now, I suppose it's a question. Am I allowed to ask a question

Yeah, of course you are. Just a little one. Now we move across to AI. Will AI that does that job shifting

allow for incorrect spelling and grammar, or will it dismiss it? Or, to answer your question with a question

which I don't really like people doing, but what's the point of being in charge

if you can't rewrite your own rules? Okay. Will it become even more unforgivable to have grammar and spelling mistakes in your applications given that you could have asked AI to correct them Yes yeah absolutely the point But then you don then read your own application

No, but you run it through AI. Yeah, yeah. Before you send it in

It is important because you have to know the context of which word you're using

and where and whom is going, who's going to read it. Yeah, I guess so

But, I mean, there is no... I mean, obviously, partly depending on the job that you're looking into

there's no guarantee that the person with good spelling is going to be the best potential employee

Is that? Absolutely not. Unless you're hiring a spelling teacher. But if you're looking through 200 applications... Yes

...it's assist. You know, it goes through that funnel, doesn't it? and it drops through and it drops through

and you throw out those that haven't had the experience, you throw out those

and you get down to five or six to interview. It's a fifth

I suppose so. And yet, you can't really tell me why it matters

You can just say that it's useful in some contexts. It doesn't change the quality of the communication

It just changes the quality of the feeling with which we receive that communication

if we've been raised a certain way, if we have been raised to put a kind of

a slightly excessive value on these things. It changes the quality of the written communication

So that's brought the two together. Apologies. No, I don't know that it does

I mean, think of two essays about Shakespeare. One of which is objectively brilliant

I don't know if you can be objectively brilliant, but every professor in the country would agree

This is one of the finest yses of Hamlet's To Be or Not To Be Soliloquy that I have ever read

This is a thing of absolute beauty. The spelling is atrocious. And then someone else hands in a perfectly spelled, grammatically absolutely faultless, low-grade ysis of the same soliloquy

What is the importance of spelling and grammar there? Oh, now you've got me

I'd go for the brilliant essay however that puts it back to my very first point

it's the context it all comes down to context the context all comes down to

because we think of context as being an objective thing but it's entirely subjective because context comes down to

how much store you set by grammar and spelling there'll be someone else hiring

who would choose to ignore that and would be looking for something else

and they may have their own. I'm going to use the word prejudices, but it's not in a negative or a nasty way

They may have their own preconceptions, not prejudices, and they might say, well, I'm not going to hire any Capricorns

I'm going to remove all the Capricorns from the list. I'm going to remove all the people that can't spell from the list

I'll see what we're left with. So context, it can be very subjective. You say, why are you someone

who cares so much about spelling and grammar? Answer, it does not make sense

because the cleverer person may be the one with the bad spelling, I think

Thank you, Sandra. From Sandra to Sue, who's in Thorax. Sue, what would you like to say

Well, first of all, I'd like to say I am actually dyslexic. Okay. Yeah

And I've worked very hard on my spelling in the past. Yes

And I think it is important because in a context of work

we're not just working with English as a first language No, that's true

And if you're not spelling things correctly you know, I mean I used to work in finance and it'd be

fine until we took on a Dutch company that English isn't their first language

so if you're misspelling things and sometimes misspelling things can actually change the whole context

of an email or a document. And so can a misplaced comma, of course

Exactly, yeah. So that's why it is important. And, you know, it used to be sort of quite easy

because you'd have, like, spell check and stuff and grammar check. Yeah

But I've actually found that with the incoming of AI, that AI quite often thinks that it knows what I want to say better than I do

and it will start completing a sentence for me and it takes me, I've switched it off

because when I'm doing an email or something it's putting in completely the wrong

it's trying to anticipate what I'm trying to say and I'll read it

and I have to read back everything that I do now or I did do until I switched it off

because it was gobbledygook. So the first and biggest answer to the question of why does it matter

is because if you're incorrect, some people will not understand you. Exactly, yeah

And, you know, I mean, the thing that we had... I'm going to move the goalposts, all right

Yeah. So in a primary school, the teacher is going to understand what you mean

So should you be punishing the children who are spelling things wrong

even though the teacher knows exactly what word they were trying to, what word they are using

Not punish. Penalise. I would say punish. Penalise. No. I don't mean you're going to give them a... Correct

Yeah. Correct. Yeah, yeah. Because if you put that foundation in at primary school

that misspelling is okay, you learn so much more in those first primary school years

than you do probably in secondary school. And if you actually put that basis in..

But, I mean, one of the problems that we had when I was working in the city, I mean, it's quite a while now

is that people would start using text speak. Yeah, you're jumping around like a grasshopper

Are you moving into all sorts of subject areas? No, but it's a similar sort of thing

So you mentioned to be or not to be. That is the question. Yeah, so if you did number two..

letter B or not. Yeah. Oh, to B or not. There used to be a car

with that registration on the embankment in London, actually. Yeah. Someone famous lived there

I think. Yeah. But, you know, I might understand what, you know

I'll sort of probably have to look twice. So it takes longer if things aren't

but if you don't have a uniform platform, it takes longer to actually understand

Yeah. Correcting isn't punishing either, is it? No, it's not. But why

does it matter? Answer for ease of understanding. Everybody, if everybody is singing

from the same grammar sheet and the same spelling sheet, then overall levels

of understanding are much higher. I can remember one of those. And we're more international. Yeah, no, of course so. Of course so

Even more so. So, in fact, Lucy Power might be wrong. I mean

she would probably defend herself by saying, I'm not so Spelling doesn't matter at all. I'm just suggesting that we're going in a little bit too hard on some slightly obscure words on the sats for year six pupils

But you're steering me back towards being a bit of a grammar fascist, actually thinking it really does matter and that you can't

I remember something from school. You could write this sentence using letters and numbers alone, because that's what you mean, isn't it, by the to be or not to be

too wise you are, too wise you be I see you are

too wise for me and the only word there written out in full is me yeah

don't know why I said that and I would see that and I'd think what

and I'd have to sort of sit and it takes longer too wise you are

yeah you would so it speeds everything up the ease of communication

so I guess maybe I'm now wondering where did the pushback come from

Spelling and grammar. They are just sort of conventions. But conventions are the oil

with which civilisation functions more smoothly. Ooh, I just made that up

It's 11.29. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Don't let me go home today

without playing you a little bit of full disclosure. I've got a nice missing word round for you as well

in a minute if I can find it. I don't know how..

Actually, you can tell me, out of all the full disclosures you've listened to, on which one do you think I was fanboying the most

On which of the full disclosures that you've listened to? You can text me this during the next news bulletin

84850, shut up, Keith. On which one do you think I was most..

Not just starstruck, because it's not about the objective fame level. It's about my personal relationship with their work

which one do you think I was most fanboying in? Because I think that I've broken my own record with this week's guest

I was so utterly, utterly, what's the word I want? Just like delighted stroke, gobsmacked, transported, just overjoyed

fanboying to interview this week's guest. So just after all the ones you've ever listened to

and obviously if you haven't listened to any you can't really enter this game

but out of all the full disclosures you've listened to on which one do you think I was most fanboying

because this week's I think we'll knock that into the proverbial cocked hat

it's half past 12 Amelia Cox is here with your headlines James O'Brien on LBC

it is 33 minutes after 12 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

I think the sentencing in that absolutely hideous let me double check before I say anything else

but there may be some breaking news for you shortly we are not at that end of the news agenda for this hour

we are paddling around in the relative shallows with a question about grammar and spelling

and the importance of or the questioning of the importance thereof why does it matter

and if it matters that much then why aren't we doing more to fight against the decline in it

or the decline in the respect for it? I'm the question of which, in which of my full disclosure interviews

do I sound most smitten or most fanboying? I don't know that we can include the ones that I did on stage

Wale suggests Lily Polman, the Holocaust survivor, who we spoke to just before lockdown started

and who sadly we lost during lockdown. and that was certainly the one in which I felt most humble

and most deeply moved. But I don't... And someone else has suggested the Gary Lineker one

John in Muswell Hill suggests the Gary Lineker one, which again took place in front of an audience

So I don't think they count because it's a different energy in the room

It's a different dynamic when there's an audience there. But I'm beginning to think I sound like a shameless fanboy

on all of my Full Disclosure interviews because I've got about a dozen different suggestions

all of which made me go, yeah, fair enough. I don't invite anyone on to Full Disclosure

unless I really, really want to spend an hour with them. It's not like the radio show

It is literally that the idea, oh, that's exciting. Imagine getting to spend an hour with them

So it has to be someone I already have a very positive view of

which perhaps explains why we're getting so many suggestions for which one was the one I fanboyed the most on

Harlan Coben's just come in. I'm watching his latest at the moment, which is just brilliant

Anyway, we're digressing. Spelling and grammar. And then a quick reveal of who the..

I'm going to play you two clips from this week's full disclosure because it is possibly the one in which I felt most fanboy

although that may not, of course, have come across in the interview. Mia is in Cardiff. Mia, what do you reckon

Hiya. Yeah, sorry. I'm a little bit nervous, so I do apologise if I'm rambling

It's only me. It's only me. Yeah, so I think I have an interesting perspective on this

So I am dyslexic, like horrifically dyslexic as a kid. Like, couldn't spell my middle name dyslexic

It was bad. What is your middle name? Rhiannon. Oh, okay, yeah

I mean, if it had been Jane, you'd have been even more horrifically dyslexic, wouldn't you

Rhiannon's quite a tricky name. Yeah, it's just a little double letters. Sure

Yeah, but I'm also a qualified English teacher, so I went through the kind of stages of really struggling with grammar

and really struggling with spelling, but also then coming out the other side of it and being highly critical of other people's mistakes in spelling and grammar

Oh, okay, yes. So, yeah. So I think something that you said before in terms of like

if we can understand what people are saying, does it really matter? I do think there is something to be said around the idea that we have a framework that we work towards

And if everyone is using their own rules, eventually that framework kind of collapses

So it's good to have a sort of recognized framework. So there's that

There's also another slightly more philosophical and sociological kind of aspect of it

where language is very much a living thing. It develops as the people use it

So it's constantly changing and developing, depending on what is relevant and what is not

And another... Oh, sorry, I am rambling. You're not rambling at all. Quite the opposite

You just making me wonder whether you are very politely and diplomatically pointing out that I being a little bit binary about this Well language is a reflection of the people that use it and so are the rules in which language is used

So, a great example of this is the word sneak. And technically, technically, the past tense of the word sneak is sneaked

because it follows the framework of all the, like, peeked, you know, whatever

but colloquially yeah, but colloquially people started using snuck as the past tense. Where did you grow up

So my dad's American, my mum's Welsh. Okay. Because your accent oscillates, doesn't it, a little bit

But I've not heard many British people say snuck. I think that's quite

an American. It doesn't matter. I've heard it more and more. Now you've noticed it

You went Welsh then. Now you've noticed it. You'll see it in TV shows

like British TV shows. My daughter says gotten quite a lot, actually. Yeah

And it sounds grammatically correct when she does it. But the thing is, now snuck is in the dictionary

because it's a reflection of people using it. So it's not incorrect anymore

It's just an evolution. But I think when it comes to correct spelling and grammar

I think a point that you made, if we can understand it, why does it matter

is that usually, I think, people who have dyslexia or whatever, I would constantly get marked down in school

because my spelling was terrible, my grammar was terrible, but my ideas were really good

That's not fair. That's not fair. Yeah. But I think there's a difference between having bad spelling

and having a lack of exposure to different ideas and language because I doubt that people who have an exposure

to a variety of different texts who have a really good framework

for how spelling and grammar works have a lack of ideas. And so that's kind of where it is

So it's like usually if you are committed to not knowing about spelling and not knowing about grammar

you're limiting yourself to have an exposure of different ideas and perspectives and things like that

So I would challenge you. That example that you said where one essay on a Shakespearean sonnet was amazing

and the other was there, but one was riddled with spelling mistakes

I doubt that that's because, if it's riddled with spelling mistakes, I doubt it's because that person had a lack of reading experience

or a lack of exposure to ideas. Yeah, so why would it be

It's just a rubbish example. It's just a rubbish example. There's a variety of different reasons

why people struggle with grammar. I mean, dyslexia is one. There's lots of different types of neurodivergencies

which means that you can't quite focus. Yeah, no, so... I don't know what I think now, thanks to you, Mia

Sorry. That's all right. So it matters, but it doesn't matter, is really what you're telling me. Yeah

Yeah, I mean, it's... That's no good for a phone-in, Mia. Another really interesting... You can't be all nuanced and sophisticated like this on a radio phone-in

If you look at, like, Pidgin languages and Creole languages as well, another fantastic example of how, like..

Or John Agard's poem, Oxford Dawn, wonderful example of how just because it's not standardized doesn't mean I don't know what I'm

saying yeah yeah of course and and I mean some of the best stories of social mobility involve

people ending up in places a million miles away from where they started and yet still sounding

like they sounded when they started and and it would be a massive snob that had any problem

whatsoever with that wouldn't it yeah I like this why have you given it I mean maybe you haven't

Maybe you're just a born radio phoning caller. But why have you given this so much thought

I think it's just because it's kind of my life experience. Yeah. I've been on the side of it where I was constantly being told

like, you know, oh, she's really, really good verbally, but, you know, she just needs to look over her work more

And I was like, I've looked over it 10,000 times and I didn't see a single mistake. Just because that's the nature

I can't spot my own mistakes a lot of the time with dyslexia

No wonder you love that poem. No wonder you love the John Agob

That would be like a West Indian patois, would it? Or what accent

I mean, I should really let him read it. I don't want to read it out myself. Me not know Oxford Don

I think there's a little bit where it's like, I'm slashing the Queen's syntax or something like that

It's really, really clever. It's really, really interesting. So making the Queen's English accessory to my offense

My offense, yeah. and that yeah i mean good lord what an amazing call i'm going to start doing a little um i can't

share too much details about this but we're going to start providing some extra content soon for for

for some people and i will have to go over the calls in a week two or three calls from the week

that have stayed with me the most yours this week would be would very much be one of them mia thank

you that's absolutely fascinating and that that poem really can't be recommended highly enough when

it comes to this very conversation that we're having now listen mr oxford don by john agard

um 12 42 as the time i want to play you a little bit of this week's full disclosure

into some british guyana or guyana as it's called now so yeah it would have been a caribbean

accent that he was speaking in and and indeed writing and still still around i think um

tim booth lead singer of james there's three four attitudes you can have to the band james

you might know two or three songs of theirs and and very little else in which case i'm telling you

now you're wrong you actually know a lot more songs of theirs you just don't realize that they're

when you hear them playing in a club or at the radio or anything like that you may think that

they um i kind of peaked during madchester which isn't true either their last album was

one of my all-time favorites they've had hiatuses but they've continued to

make exceptional music for decades now. And sitting down with Tim Boo, the lead singer of James

which is very much a collective, was one of the greatest pleasures of my interviewing life

And here is just a little flavour of why. James O'Brien on LBC

I love punk. It was great fun. But again, it was authentically, emotionally real

Which is the opposite of what you had to be at school Yeah And how successful were you at that I mean did you because so much of what you done since is is profoundly spiritual and yet that is anathema particularly for that second housemaster

who would have hated anything that that smacked of spiritual or smacked of cultural or artistic

anything that was airy-fairy how how far from your true self did you travel during this period

Were you cruel to other kids? Were you? Oh, that's a great question. God, at once

Yeah. I do remember an incident going, oh my God, what am I doing? But no, I don't think in general I was

And that housemaster, after my last exam, kicked me out. You've got nothing to offer the school

I know you're manipulating the system. I was sneaking out to see bands downtown

I was watching the old Grey Whistle Test on television. You weren't allowed to, you know, at low volume

because I knew it was feeding me. And, of course, you look at what I became

Obviously, this was from my soul. But what happened was the next day

a boy who was coming to be vice head of school went into him and said, you can't throw him out

You don't know what he does for the younger kids and the homesick kids. And he doesn't tell anyone

And so I don't think generally I was because he spoke up for me

What did you do for the homesick kid? just try to make them feel

like they weren't alone you know I had there was an older boy who did that

to me um and was accused of being queer because of it

let me sit in his bed sit and listen to music and

have a cup of coffee, a cup of Nescafe Jonathan Akers if you're out there thank you um

just just just seeing you yeah you're getting quite emotional because the contrast between somebody who cared

in an environment where caring was weakness would have been so acute and so powerful

and so you paid it forward as they say you tried to be Jonathan Aikhus to other children

I think so, you might find a few kids from that time who might say otherwise but you know what I mean

but that was beautiful that that boy stood up James O'Brien on LBC

It is 12.48. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. He's not messing about, Andy Burnham, is he

Not only has he already attacked the plan to FIFA's plan, Gianni Sikofantino's plan to flog off the World Cup to Jared Kushner's brother

he's gone again. He's now released a statement stating that Gianni Infantino is the, quote

wrong man to lead the organisation in the wake of the controversial plan

to seek private investment in a company to run the World Cup. And Burnham obviously cares

It's another example of how unlucky Keir Starmer was as Prime Minister

because Starmer is an absolute stone-cold, authentic football fan as well. He just doesn't have the air of credibility that Burnham has

That's not fair. He is no more credible than Keir Starmer as a football fan

But I'm afraid that Burnham's views on this will just land more sincerely with people than Starmer's

and that is unfair. He did it yesterday, and someone we happily haven't heard much from recently got involved

and it tickled me pink. So Andy Burnham posted about the football, and Suella Braverman

the only time I ever see things that have happened on Twitter are either when Henry Riley alerts me to it

or when it actually makes The Poke, the satirical website, The Poke

who I really enjoy, but they spend a lot of time trawling through the best and the worst of Twitter

So Andy Burnham posted about football, and so soella braverman posted and i'm going to quote her directly because we're talking about

the importance of grammar she posted yeah but what about the boats andy it to a post about football

conveniently overlooking the fact that the highest ever crossings the highest ever number of crossings

of the channel in small boats occurred when she was literally home secretary that's if you like

the Reform UK playbook. Just treat the people that support you like bigoted fools

Don't think that they'll even be wise enough to remember that you were Home Secretary

when there were more crossings than ever before or since and pretend that it's somehow relevant

to respond to a tweet about football by writing, yeah, but what about the boats, Andy

And I just found myself thinking that's not very ministerial language. Yeah, but

yeah but what about the boats and I was trying to think who

it reminded me of someone and I began to think that perhaps

who does it remind you of yeah but what about the boats Andy

what about the boats Andy so Suela Braverman making a bid to become the Vicky Pollard

of British politics 12.51 is the time I need to play another clip of Tim

before I go but um I loved Katie's message saying that when she was little her friend's mum was the PR for James

and her and her friend woke up one night while she was having a party and Tim Booth sang us back to sleep

a little concert for two I didn't know before the interview that he'd been to a school a bit like

mine which is why we connected so deeply in the in the clip that you just heard take it back to the

dance floor in the next clip that I will play for you don't worry back to grammar and spelling Tim's

in High Wycombe. Tim, what made you pick up the phone? Oh, hello. I'm a sub-editor

So I kind of correct other people's writing for... I know what a sub-editor... Oh, some people

listening won't, of course. They might not. No, exactly. So all day

long I've got other people's words in front of me and I kind of

correct them and some of that's spelling, some of that's grammar, some of it's checking

facts and stuff. and my take on it is that it actually reiterates a lot of what Mia was saying

Was it Mia? Yes, yes, Mia Rhiannon. Yeah, yeah. It reiterates what she was saying

which is actually having something to say is more something interesting or useful or important to say

is more important than the grammar that you use to say it or to write it

and the grammar becomes a vehicle for getting your point across and for holding people's attention

depending on what it is you're writing and who your audience is. So in the grown world in the arena of sort of published content there a bit of a battle to hold people attention

And good grammar can do that. And bad grammar can put people off

And it can be subtly bad or it can be blatantly bad. and subtly bad grammar, I think

If the reader has to treat the sentence like a bit of a..

To decipher it almost. Yeah, it becomes an obstacle course. If you've got hurdles and speed bumps and things

that you're having to reprocess and microprocess in real time as you're reading

you're not properly paying attention to the information in the thing you're reading

and that it can consciously or unconsciously put people off and they won't take in what you're saying

So really good grammar can make a difference. Do you think that because of the more widespread appreciation of dyslexia

we've kind of let the pendulum swing too far the other way? We should be really looking after dyslexic people

but not compromising spelling and particularly grammatical standards, which is not necessarily a dyslexic thing

as a consequence we should be strict is a nasty word we're all thinking of victorian

teaching methods but we should be teaching children that it matters but also that look

you're not going to get into any trouble if you get it wrong but it matters in the same way that

crossing the road matters you know it's it's it's just going to make you better it's going to make

you more easily understood it's going to help you communicate your thoughts and your absolutely yeah

it's a tool definitely yeah but equally I think younger people should be taught that

there's this having something to say thing is the important part and the actual real skill

that young people need to learn even at primary school age is we can think things and know things

in our head but turning those into words is is that is often the battle whether they're spoken

words or written words and it's that you know it's that um it's that transition from what we've got

in our head either into sentences that we speak or we write and what we speak and what we write

come from different parts of our brain we hold we hold our information in one place then we

translate it into written words using one bit of our brain or spoken word using another which is

why someone can be very very articulate in speech but they really really struggle with

There it is. You're brilliant. Do you want to know something funny

Go on. I mean, you already know what your name is, but I'd kind of forgotten after I introduced you

I got a message off Hayden that said, I used to work in car rental, James, and Tim once rented a car from me

I was the branch manager, so I had to pick him up and drop him off. I was really taken aback by how nice and down-to-earth he was

And I'm thinking, flipping hell, how can you recognise a copy editor from High Wycombe

just on the strength of a phone call to the radio station? And I'm reading this thinking, what's going on

and then I suddenly remembered I played the clip of Tim Booth just before you came on

Different Tim. A different Tim indeed. 12.56 was the time. Here's the other Tim talking about, you know

probably the moment that they, as a band, that James moved into the stratosphere

We started getting regular gigs, Manchester, London, and Glasgow. And the Manchester and Glasgow audiences would double every time

and the Glasgow ones became passionate and you're going, we're doing something right

Someone's getting this. Even though we never got played once on daytime radio

for the first seven years. Just Peel. John Peel. Did a Peel session

A couple of Peel sessions. So it was seeing the audiences amplify

and their passion amplify in Manchester and Glasgow and to some degree London

So even though people are like, you're not making any money and my parents are like, you've been doing this six years for god's sake but by six years we were playing to thousands of

people and they were going crazy and so and we had to sit down we started playing it live

year and a half before we released it and probably the fourth gig in paris at le locomotive

thousand people and one by one the audience sat down on the floor Magic

And you're like This is an unreleased song And by the end of the song

Sit down The whole audience was sitting on the floor And something's just happened

You didn't manipulate Incredible Still gets you now Why wouldn't it? I mean the list of people you suggested

I'd been most fanboying with In the course of full disclosure which means that it was a stupid question to ask

because pretty much all of them. Martin Shaw, you're damn right on that. John Cleese, says Mike

and then points out that it might be a slightly different vibe in the studio if I were to sit down with John now

Tim Roth, that one was over Zoom during lockdown. Graham Park, David Dimbleby, Rupert Everett, Amber Rudd

Angela Rayner, Gary Lineker, yeah, Harlan Coben, Jamila Jamil. Yeah, you're right, I did

Stuart Lee, gosh, Billy Idol. Yeah, all right. Obviously, I often come across as a bit of a fanboy

in the course of those conversations. Neil says, would you ever have Nigel Farage on Full Disclosure

No, but I absolutely want him on the programme. The invitation has now been in position for 12 years

12 years Nigel has had an open invitation to come on this programme. We can talk about everything, freedom of speech

the parameters of political discourse, policies, donations, anything you want, mate. 12 years ago, he challenged me, he was on Nick Ferrari's programme

and someone rang in and said, James O'Brien thinks you're a racist. And he said, well, I challenged James O'Brien to a debate

So he doesn't talk like that, does he? So I got him on. I accepted his challenge

I didn't even want to have a debate. I just wanted to interview the guy, see if he was as unpleasant as I thought he was

I'll leave you to decide what happened. You can still see the video on YouTube

but I've been waiting 12 years for him to come back. I don't know quite what possible excuse he could have

for such cowardice, but I'm sure he's got one. If you missed any of today's show

you can listen back on our free global player or the LBC app where you can also

stay up to date with all the latest news videos and opinions you can listen to a range of podcasts

including James O'Brien Daily, the best bits from my LBC show every day, so do

download the official LBC app for free from your app store now Tom Swarbrick will be with you at 4

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