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Matt Frei is live from Tel Aviv as Israeli's head to the polls for an election which could see the end of Netanyahu's reign.
Matt is joined by former Israeli PM Ehud Olmert and Israel correspondent Anshel Pfeffer to discuss the mood in the region ahead of election day.
Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp
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0:00
A friend of mine in Israel said this election is about a choice between liberal democracy
0:04
or biblical fascism. Is that overstating it? No. You agree? Yes, I think that the government today
0:18
which is standing now for, in a way, for re-election, is governed by messianic
0:25
the groups of fundamentalist, religious, extremist, radicals that are aiming publicly and openly
0:34
at pushing out all of the Gazan people from Gaza and all of the West Bankers from the West Bank
0:44
in order to be able to, in the near future, they hope
0:50
to be able to integrate the territories of both Gaza and the West Bank
0:54
to become officially part of the state of Israel. What they think about is annexation of these territories
1:02
This is messianic, fascist, brutal, terrorist attitude, and it is inspired and governed by ministers
1:15
senior ministers in the Israeli cabinet, and with the tacit and sometimes explicit support
1:21
of the prime minister himself. So this is a real choice that stands now for the Israeli voters, a choice between fascist groups of thugs that are governing the Israeli government now and the state, and also threatening the basic foundations or the democratic values which characterize the state of Israel from its inception
1:53
And a group of parties which are centrist, sometimes leaning to the left, which are absolutely committed to these basic values
2:04
that's a very stark way of putting the choice before the israeli public and so for do you agree
2:12
with what the former prime minister just said and if that you know the issues of the west bank and
2:17
gaza are not just so important but also you know defining for the future of both the palestinians
2:23
and israelis how come the issue of gaza and the west bank has barely cropped up in the election
2:29
campaign, Ancel? Well, I disagree. I've been reporting on this election for months now, and I've heard both the West Bank and
2:38
Gaza mentioned by candidates in speeches in many of their publications and propaganda so I not quite sure where you got that impression from Matt but Gadi Eisenkot who the main
2:51
challenger to now, in this election, he made a big press conference just a week ago saying that
2:57
he would end Hamas' rule within 18 months, and that was a speech on Sunday when he spoke about
3:03
that quite at length, so I'm not sure where you get the impression from, Matt, I'm really sorry
3:07
Well, I've not been in the country, but not nearly as much as you. I've been here for a couple of days. I got that impression from actually, you know, from reading local reports from, you know, local papers and also foreign correspondents who say the main emphasis has been on issues of corruption, you know, judicial reform and that kind of stuff. But, you know, but I stand to be corrected
3:25
I mean, it's an election campaign. It's been going on for a few months
3:31
Obviously, there are various emphases, but I think the issue of Gaza certainly has been very much at the centre
3:38
both in the way in which the opposition is accusing Netanyahu of the failure of October 7
3:46
of his strategy regarding Hamas in Gaza in the years before the October 7 attack three years ago
3:52
but also very much the situation now in Gaza. It's mainly about the accusations that Hamas is still there
4:00
How come after three years of devastating war, they're still in charge of not of all the strip, but certainly of all the populated areas, third of the strip
4:09
It's a huge thing in this campaign. OK, so my question to Ehud Ahmed was, is this, as a friend of mine said, a choice between liberal democracy and biblical fascism
4:18
Would you agree with that choice or is that overstating it? Well, I think that's a very stark way of putting it. Certainly, there's a huge divergence of views between the different parties, but I don't think that the opposition itself is such a bastion of liberal democracy
4:38
You know, it's very much a mixed bag of right-wing parties and centrists
4:42
and just a little bit of liberal left-wing. I mean, it's not..
4:47
It's an alternative, certainly, to the way of which the Netanyahu coalition has been doing government
4:52
But to say that they represent liberal democracy in all its fine colours
4:59
it would be putting them up on a pedestal, which I think, if they do win the election, many will be disappointed
5:05
sense. Ehud Omad, if Gadi Eisenkot, the former chief of the army who lost his son in the Gaza
5:10
war, lost two nephews in the Gaza war, a man whose political calling cards, if you like
5:16
are grief and sacrifice, if he were to run this country after the election, become prime minister
5:21
what would change both for Israelis and for Palestinians Well first of all for Israelis obviously the attitude of Mr Isencourt and the parties that are lining up with him will be against what
5:39
the former government or the president government started to do, the judicial reform, which we
5:47
widely agree is a judicial program. I mean, the upsetting the status of the Supreme Court
5:54
not recognizing the president of the Supreme Court, trying to remove the attorney general
6:01
all this will definitely change. So there will be a normalization of the public discourse
6:08
which has vanished completely over the last few years. the total, the continued incitements by the government and the polarization of the Israeli electorate
6:23
this, I think, will change dramatically, which will be enormously important for Israel
6:32
And that will make a difference to the state of Israel. whether there will be a new attitude, a new policy, a dramatically new policy towards the Palestinians
6:47
I think not at the beginning, definitely not at the beginning. I mean, I think that the government of Eisenhower will be very aggressive against the Jewish terror in the West Bank
6:58
There's no question about it. I think this is a terrible thing that is taking place on a daily basis
7:05
and the Israeli government, the present government, and the ministers, Bank of Gertrudev, and also Netanyahu
7:13
are inspiring it and supporting it and are not doing anything in order to stop it
7:19
In fact, they deny what everyone can see in his own eyes
7:23
like the brutal attack against Hedy Levine, the photographer of the Washington Post
7:30
Netanyahu wasn't sure what exactly happened. according to him it needs to be investigated when everything was quite clear in front of the eyes of
7:40
everyone that wanted to watch it. So this will change. As for what I think is the most crucial
7:48
issue in the future life of the state of Israel, which is the comprehensive resolution, political
7:53
resolution of the historic conflict between us and the Palestinians, that seems to, will take time
8:00
It true that the block of change is made up of parties which have different opinions about this And I think that presently unfortunately certainly according to my point of view there is not yet an open mind in the Israeli electorate about a possible two solution
8:23
It will have to take time, and it will require, obviously, also a different attitude and a different nature
8:31
or the Palestinian leadership to be able to cope with the challenges
8:35
which are part of such process. That will take time. But as I said, the rhetoric, the spirit, the attitude within the state of Israel
8:45
will be dramatically different, which is a very good beginning. Is it enough
8:51
According to my point of view, it's not. We have to move forward towards a political solution with the Palestinians
8:57
but that will take more time. And Shobfefe, if Gaddy Eisenkot were to become prime minister, what do you think he has realistically in mind for the Palestinians, both in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank
9:08
Well, I think in Gaza, he basically faces a situation where Israel is now in control of two thirds almost of the territory
9:20
There is a 20 point plan by Donald Trump, which was presented a year ago, which is basically supposed to be the blueprint for Gaza's future
9:29
Now, the question really is how to proceed with that, because we're now at the stage where the reconstruction with Gaza has yet to begin
9:38
The disarmament of Hamas has yet to begin. Israeli withdrawal isn't happening anytime soon
9:44
Eisenhower has a series of questions that he needs to deal with. Whoever becomes prime minister, because I'm not totally certain, is going to be Eisenhower
9:52
But whoever is prime minister of Israel after this election is going to have to deal with a series of dilemmas of how to prioritize the different sequences of disarmament, reconstruction, Israeli withdrawal
10:06
None of these are easy questions. And even though Eisencock has mentioned Hamas and Gaza quite prominently in his campaign
10:13
he's done so really in headlines, saying, I'm going to make sure that in 18 months Hamas is no longer in charge there and is not going to pose a threat
10:21
But he hasn't given, and none of the candidates, and they've all spoken about Gaza, but none of them have really given a clear idea of how they intend to continue on those three tracks of reconstruction, disarmament and withdrawal
10:35
And that's really waiting for after the election. I mean, this is not the kind of nuance that you get in an election here
10:42
We don't have detailed manifestos like you have in the UK, where the parties bring out 200 page books
10:48
So it's much easier to talk about in generalisations, like the politicians
10:52
Obviously, on the ground, it's much more complex
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