Up next in 10
Israel's President wants dialogue and no action | James O'Brien - The Whole Show
Sep 10, 2026
This is a catch-up version of James O'Brien's live, daily show on LBC Radio from the 9th of September, 2026.
00:00 - Foreign Secretary 'standing up for british values' as he admits Israeli response to West Bank sanctions was 'regrettably' expected
01:15:22 - UK charities welcome sanctions in West Bank - George Graham, Executive Director for Global Impact at Save the Children UK
01:28:03 - PMQs - Natasha Clark, LBCs Political Editor
02:05:06 - Best-Selling author Jon Ronson on the masculinity crisis - Jon Ronson, author of The Castle
02:20:19 - First Minister Of Wales speaks to LBC - Rhun ap Iorwerth, First Minister of Wale
#jamesobrien #politics #LBC
LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK.
Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/
Sign up to LBC's weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:00
Good morning. Three minutes after 10 is the time. I'm going to do something I don't often
0:07
do and remind you of the phone number early doors. 0345 6060. Nearly forgot it then. 0345
0:15
6060 973 is the number that you will need to join in because I'm going to talk for a
0:20
bit and then I'm going to ask you to talk with me or indeed argue with me or agree with
0:26
me or mourn with me really um and that's it today i don't even know if i'm going to hit the
0:34
exit with a with a with a sharp question or at least possibly nothing sharper than
0:40
how do you react to this news that um the united kingdom is imposing sanctions on
0:47
uh illegally occupied territories in the west bank because of the actions of what are
0:55
um foreign secretary ed miliband chose to describe as israeli settler terrorists and already the first
1:03
problem appears well not the first problem the first what word would you use the first punctuation
1:08
mark in my own thinking do i mention that ed miliband is the son of a holocaust survivor um
1:14
do i mention that ed miliband is jewish does it matter because i have spent a long time being told
1:21
that it is borderline evil to conflate Israel with Judaism and therefore to bring Judaism into any element of this conversation is wrong
1:33
I think it is awful to conflate Israel with Judaism, but the people who seem to do it the most are people like Benjamin Netanyahu
1:39
and yesterday the chief rabbi. I don't know. It's a short answer to the question that's forming in my mind
1:45
Should I mention it? Ed Miliband did. I think so. That is his prerogative
1:51
That is his right. I've already heard people try to argue that because he doesn't go to synagogue every week, he's somehow not fully Jewish, which, I mean, if you've got even a cursory understanding of the Holocaust, is a position to adopt or a point to argue so fundamentally stupid and sick that I frankly can't believe people can do so and breathe at the same time
2:14
I can't believe that they're intellectually capable of walking and talking simultaneously
2:18
to argue that because he doesn't practice, he must somehow be detached from the horrors
2:25
or not fully invested in the historic plight of Jews or the current situation in Israel
2:33
Here is Ed Miliband in the House of Commons yesterday. I'm proud of my Jewishness and unwavering in my support for the state of Israel
2:40
and there is absolutely no contradiction between this and my support for the state of Palestine
2:46
Indeed quite the opposite. The two-state solution is based on an explicit belief
2:51
that the only route to security for both peoples is to live side by side
2:55
in peaceful coexistence with freedom, security and self-determination. It's pretty uncontroversial right
3:02
Here is the, well he'll describe himself, here's the Conservative MP Edward Lee a little later in Parliament yesterday
3:09
What is happening in the West Bank is absolutely violent and egregious
3:16
It is worse than stopping the two-state solution. It is ethnic cleansing
3:22
So will he agree that actually the Israeli government could quite easily differentiate
3:28
between general trade and trade to these illegal settlements? Would he agree that there's no reason when our country fully supports the right of Israel
3:38
to defend itself, that this should affect our intelligence relationship. So I say to him now, I am proud to say
3:45
as the longest-serving member of the Conservative Friends of Israel, that I absolutely and fully support what he is doing today
3:56
Because it is about standing up for freedom, for morality and justice of all people in this world
4:04
So freedom, morality and justice are generally considered to be quite good things
4:08
not i i concede by everybody um and they are essentially principles um it reminded me of the
4:15
late robin cook actually elements of that speech albeit that they sat on very different sides of
4:19
the house of commons because what we're seeing ed miliband in act in in his own mind and in mine
4:24
is an ethical foreign policy so immediately the idea that well it's not going to make any difference
4:30
or it's going to damage this or it might undo that becomes pointless um symbols are really
4:34
important to human beings. The idea that something is merely symbolic is ridiculous. What do you
4:40
think religious festivals are? The symbolism here is up with this we shall not put anymore. So
4:47
of course, the criticism that it has come too late is probably valid, but I think probably
4:52
diffused by the old adage better late than never. So I played you those two clips because Ed Miliband
4:57
is a Labour foreign secretary and the son of a Holocaust survivor who found shelter in Israel
5:04
I speak of his mother, his late mother, whereas Edward Lee is the longest-serving member
5:09
of the Conservative Friends of Israel. And I play them to you because on the programme yesterday
5:16
the son of a rabbi described his university experiences as his first exposure to left-wing people
5:24
as if having problems with the conduct of Israel in the Middle East
5:28
was a left-wing position. And we reflected on that together for a moment
5:33
And the fact that, you know, so many of the great left-wing thinkers of the 20th century, from Karl Marx to, I know he's sort of blotted his copybook somewhat subsequently, but from Karl Marx to Noam Chomsky, you know, left-wing thinkers in the United Kingdom and beyond Ralph Miliband, actually
5:50
So, you know, you have this extraordinary, what would you describe it as, a movement in rhetoric
6:01
As Israel became more aggressive and really peaking under Benjamin Netanyahu, the support of the right wing became much, much greater than the support of the so-called left wing
6:14
And I don't know that I either understand that or buy the narrative that we've all sort of subscribed to
6:24
And Edward Lee reminded me of that. I mean, unless your right-wing-ness is so ignorant and so shallow that it just means you support power, whatever power is doing
6:33
If you're looking at oppression, then you support the oppressor rather than the oppressed
6:37
And yeah, okay, you've got a right-wing, left-wing divide here. But Edward Lee's words, possibly for the very first time ever, really resonated with me
6:46
The two Eds, you could say. The two Eds. And that's why I think an awful lot of the ysis and response is both deeply mistaken and quite dangerous
7:00
You are going to be accused, or certain people, including the Chief Rabbi and the Board of Deputies of British Jews
7:06
are going to argue that this is fueling anti-semitism, but not that, for example, ethnic cleansing or genocide
7:15
would fuel anti-semitism. I mean, it's becoming an accusation that is applied
7:20
whatever anybody does in the context of Israel, except stay silent or agree and applaud If you say anything if you say please stop killing people you being anti or indeed you fueling anti by pointing it out I get that in the inbox you know I can believe you covering this
7:37
You are encouraging Jew hate by describing what Israel is doing, by reading out death tolls
7:43
by reflecting upon atrocities, by describing ethnic cleansing, by sharing what the plurality
7:49
of genocide scholars have described as genocide, what human rights organisations in Israel and
7:53
beyond have been describing as genocide now for a long time. And by simply telling the truth
7:59
about those things, you get accused of encouraging Jew hate. And it's a horrible thing to be accused
8:09
of, but you've got to be big enough to understand whether it's true or not. And imagine any other
8:16
context in which telling the truth would see people seeking to silence you for bringing
8:25
for theoretically bringing negativity down upon them. So separating Israel from Jewishness is a
8:33
task that we should all be committed to. Every single one of us who's interested in peace or
8:38
harmony should be absolutely dedicated to pointing out that the actions of Benjamin Netanyahu's regime
8:43
are in no way the actions of or supported by every Jew in the world
8:49
let alone every Jew in Israel or every Jew in the UK. And yet who is it that constantly tells us
8:55
that by criticising the actions of Benjamin Netanyahu and his regime you are encouraging Jew hate
9:04
It's Israelis. It's Benjamin Netanyahu. They're spokespeople. He's spokespeople in this country
9:11
It doesn't make sense. And you get a little bit frightened sometimes
9:15
of pointing out how little sense it makes because it's such a hefty accusation to have levelled at you
9:21
I'd have to just glance at my inbox and see what I can find already
9:25
because, you know, how long have I been on air? 13 minutes after 10
9:30
Maybe you're going to surprise me. Maybe it's not happening. Here we go. Two hours of Jew hate from James O'Brien
9:34
That's from Darren. Glancing at his history of contributions to the programme
9:39
he thinks that all benefit claimants are shirkers and that Nigel Farage is the messiah
9:43
who else are we going to get here? Well, actually, it's quite thin on the ground
9:49
You are encouraging anti-Semitism. There we go. That's one. I assume you're going to take your normal anti-Israel approach this morning
9:56
ignoring any valid arguments that suit your narrative. That's from Kevin, who's got the gift of clairvoyance
10:03
He can see forward. Miliband is a disgrace, he adds. And all that Ed Miliband has done is respond to a regime
10:12
that is doing nothing to stop the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in the West Bank by settler terrorists
10:19
And I still think that if he, as the son of a Holocaust survivor, hadn't said that
10:23
then I would need a slightly longer run-up to say it out loud myself. I don't expect any sympathy for that
10:29
I'm just pointing out that it's really difficult to tell the truth sometimes
10:33
And it's been made incredibly difficult very, very deliberately. So these sanctions are ethical
10:39
These sanctions, as Edward Lee, the father of the house, just said, speak to freedom, morality and justice
10:44
The question of whether or not they achieve much or whether or not they have negative side effects is absolutely irrelevant
10:51
I don't care how many big kahunas you bring on to your program to explain that it's going to do this or it's going to do that in terms of economic impact
11:00
It's irrelevant. This is literally diplomacy. This is literally international relations. This is literally saying to an ally, although they haven't behaved like allies of the United Kingdom recently, and they certainly didn't when they supported General Galtieri during the Falklands War
11:17
But you are saying to an ally, we cannot tolerate this any longer. Please stop
11:22
And they respond by accusing you of lying when you're telling the truth
11:27
And the question that we started asking not long after the October the 7th atrocities, terrorist attacks, was why won't they let journalists in
11:35
why won't they let journalists in and we know the answer we've known the answer for years
11:41
because the truth is the enemy of the oppressor you let the journalists in
11:47
then the dog sees the rabbit the people see the truth and they can't have that
11:52
so we don't let the journalists in and you remember for ages you were entitled to question the casualty rates
11:58
or the death toll because it was the Hamas controlled health ministry
12:03
and then very quietly a year or two later the Israeli regime conceded that the death toll was accurate
12:10
It wasn't being manipulated or inflated by Hamas. The people who would message me on an almost daily basis
12:14
to say, I can't believe you're repeating Hamas propaganda, went suddenly silent. Most of them have stayed silent
12:20
So I'm very grateful to Darren and Kevin for sharing with me their boneheaded ignorance and bigotry this morning
12:25
I miss it. Here is a question that everybody should reflect on
12:30
I've begun with the first, which is that if you are truly interested in peace and harmony
12:35
then you have to absolutely detach the Israeli regime from Judaism. You have to absolutely come down on anybody
12:42
who claims that a criticism of Israel is an attack upon Jews. That's hideous rhetoric, hideous rhetoric
12:49
and it is being delivered from the very top of institutions in Israel
12:54
and indeed in this country. And you do the same for anti-Semites as well
13:00
The idea that you get to attack all Jews because of what Benjamin Netanyahu has done is disgusting
13:04
It's mad, isn't it, that three things can be true at the same time? Anti-Semitism is absolutely disgusting, and so is ethnic cleansing
13:12
So if the people doing the ethnic cleansing happen to be Jewish
13:16
then anti-Semitism is still disgusting, and so is ethnic cleansing. It's not difficult to sustain these two positions in your mind
13:23
if you bother to think for ten minutes, or if you're free from some of the historic shackles
13:29
that I have enormous sympathy for that inform your view of the world
13:34
because Israel is the place that you go to when it starts happening again. But think about this
13:40
So that's point one, really, is that everybody should be committed to the detachment of Judaism
13:47
from Netanyahu's hideous regime. Criticizing Netanyahu is about, I mean, the idea that it's somehow hatred of Jewish people
13:56
or encouraging anti-Semitism or encouraging Jew hate is an argument so utterly bogus
14:01
that we should probably all agree not to give any more airtime to people making it
14:05
because they're not interested in the truth and they're not interested in resolution or harmony or communication
14:12
They're just shouting into the ether things that are not true. And the second thing is, I've had, I think, two occasions, maybe more
14:25
but I've been doing this job for a very long time and very, very rarely do I find myself thinking
14:33
I'm not sure I want to go on air today. I just want to sit with the horror for a while
14:38
before I actually have to offer up views and opinions on it. I know that I felt that way after the Manchester Arena terrorist attack
14:47
at the Ariana Grande concert because my children were of an age when they were going to a lot of concerts
14:51
and I couldn separate the personal from the professional But we got through it You helped me through it after the October 7th terror attacks the feeling was similar It was as if the carnage was so great that I didn know where to start the description of it
15:12
But again, we got through that, again, with your help. And there have been moments since, not that long ago
15:20
when the girls' school in Iran was blown up by Donald Trump's ludicrous military ambitions
15:26
I didn't have the same visceral reaction because I didn't see the footage, I didn't see the pictures
15:31
I didn't have the sounds in my ear. But when we followed the story of the little girl
15:37
in the car, on the phone, begging for help, and we've subsequently discovered that she was killed
15:45
as well in circumstances that absolutely nobody could defend. You have those moments as well where you think
15:52
oh, why didn't I become a music DJ? Why didn't I become a sports cop
15:56
Why do I have to talk about this stuff immediately? Why can't I have 10 minutes to process it
16:05
or two days to get through it? If you're not familiar with that story, by the way
16:10
Hindra Jab's death, then it's because of the... It's for the same reasons that much of the coverage
16:16
in the British media today is amplifying and disseminating the idea that an ethical foreign policy decision to tell an ally
16:25
that what they're doing is disgusting and must stop somehow encourages Jew hatred or puts Jewish people in danger
16:33
attacking the son of a Holocaust survivor for speaking out in favour of humanity and decency
16:38
She was five years old. She spent hours trapped in a car pleading for people to rescue her
16:44
and the IDF killed her. Her aunt, her uncle, her cousins were already dead
16:50
They tried to escape in the same car. Israeli forces fired on the vehicle, instantly killing six of her relatives
16:55
including her 15-year-old cousin, who'd managed to call the emergency dispatchers, which is why the phone line was open
17:02
She spent hours, this little girl, this five-year-old girl, talking to the Palestinian Red Crest
17:07
Sorry, am I encouraging Jew hatred? or am I critiquing a barbaric act by the Israeli regime
17:17
or by representatives of the Israeli regime? Because if you don't know the answer to that question, you're lost
17:24
You're already lost. Am I being anti-Semitic at the moment? Because if you don't know the answer to that question
17:33
or if you think the answer is yes, then you've surrendered something really valuable
17:37
You've surrendered intellectual freedom. you've surrendered agency and you've surrendered honesty all for benjamin netinyahu hours on the
17:46
phone to the palestinian red crescent society whispering desperate pleas for help so they sent
17:52
an ambulance two medics all cleared all coordinated and then it got hit by an israeli tank round
18:01
that killed the paramedics instantly the line to um to hind went down and her body
18:07
was discovered the following day after Israeli forces withdrew from the area
18:13
I'll tell you what I'm doing here. I'm encouraging fact appreciation, truth acknowledgement
18:23
And how, when you think about the aftermath of October the 7th
18:30
and you think about how we sat here, I don't think I had sympathy for Keir Starmer
18:36
when he appeared to offer support to putative war crimes committed by Benjamin Netanyahu
18:42
the cutting off of energy and water. But I understood why he'd done it, whether he misspoke or whether the..
18:47
I don't think he's a man who gets overtaken by emotion very often or any of those things
18:54
But the horror of that day was so immense. I found myself harboring terrible feelings
19:02
towards anybody getting in touch with the program with a yes, but. yes it's awful but Israel has been doing this yes it's awful but Israel has been yes it's awful but
19:11
um you know let's go back to 1948 or let's go back to the six-day war and I had no patience
19:18
for those people because it seemed to me that that was a moment where you just report and reflect the
19:25
pain and the horror and then the world began to turn the world began to turn and very very quickly
19:34
you began to see that Benjamin Netanyahu was going to use that terrorist atrocity undertaken by Hamas
19:40
Because, look, I'm going to get messages saying that you never mention Hamas, you never mention terrorist atrocities
19:45
That is brainwashing. You're hearing me say these words, and you're sending me messages saying
19:49
you never mention this or you never mention that. It was one of the darkest days I can remember in my life
19:56
That October the 7th terrorist atrocity, it was absolutely hideous. But what has happened since is equally hideous in an emotional sense, in a moral sense
20:07
And if you want to measure human suffering in units of human suffering, then what has happened since is worse
20:18
And it has been done by an ally of the United Kingdom with whom we will continue to trade even after these sanctions are brought in
20:25
so how can anybody argue that by talking about things that have happened you somehow encourage
20:36
attacks on people who share a faith with the man who has ordered the atrocities or the cabinet
20:43
members who cheer them i just don't really see it i mean if you were to think about it in a
20:50
slightly different way, then if reporting the atrocities encourages anti-Semitism or attacks on Jews
20:58
and calling for the atrocities to stop encourages anti-Semitism and attacks on Jews
21:05
then what are you actually allowed to do here without being accused of
21:10
causing anti-Semitism or attacks on Jewish people? What are you actually allowed to say
21:19
Nothing. You're not allowed to say anything, which means you have to live with the allegation
21:26
You have to live with the accusation. You have to live with the label. Because I'm not in the business of looking the other way, nor are you
21:34
So, on this program, you are allowed to say whatever you want, both within the bounds of decency, legality and libel law
21:42
And I want you to tell me your reaction straight up to what was announced yesterday
21:46
the condemnation of ethnic cleansing by Israeli settler terrorists in the West Bank
21:51
A small but deeply significant attempt to send a message to our allies in the Knesset
21:55
that this just can't go on. This cannot continue. And by telling people to stop ethnic cleansing or to account for a genocide
22:05
you are somehow encouraging attacks upon people in this country. I think you need to work a little bit harder to make that case
22:13
And I don't ultimately think that you'll be able to. Our phone lines are open, 0345 6060 973
22:21
How can anybody truly criticise what was announced yesterday with a clean conscience Come here ring and tell me James O on LBC It is 28 minutes after 10 and it is absolutely heartbreaking that Benjamin Netanyahu
22:39
has somehow managed to hemorrhage the sympathy of almost the entire world
22:44
in the aftermath of the October 7th terror attack by Hamas on Israel
22:49
and instead turn his country into a place that is now being sanctioned by a long queue of allies
22:57
Why? Because they have shown no indication at any turn in the last three years that they were going to stop
23:03
They killed 1,000 more Palestinians after the so-called ceasefire was announced. I think a similar figure have died in the West Bank over the last three years
23:12
But hey, don't condemn it or don't do anything to stop it. Let's all just carry on talking, as the Israeli president suggested yesterday
23:19
Chris is in Fife. Chris, make it snappy, mate. I did a slightly longer introduction than usual
23:25
It's hardly my fault, James. Good morning. I thought it was a very powerful speech
23:31
I was slightly shocked to hear for almost the first time I can remember
23:37
the British government, in its official position, take such a stance. Yeah
23:42
You mentioned in your introduction that it reminded you of Robin Cook
23:47
It reminded me not only of Cook but also of the wonderful speech by Tony Benn
23:51
when we were thinking about attacking Iraq again, I think in 1998
23:55
That's a speech I still go back to that can bring me to tears. I believe this speech by Ed Miliband will go down in those same annals
24:05
It was powerful, it was very considered and it crystallised that the United Kingdom cannot have the stance
24:14
that there should be a two-state solution and continue to go on as normal with an Israeli regime
24:21
that has made it abundantly clear that they do not believe the Palestinian people have the right to self-determination
24:28
I mean, they're dedicated to dismantling any prospect of a two-state solution to this
24:33
and that is, I think, the point that many people are missing. Well, there are two points that many people are missing
24:39
The first, of course, is that if this is really no big deal and it's not going to have any major impact
24:43
and what on earth are they playing at, then why is everybody responding so violently, verbally
24:48
with such verbal violence from the Israeli government right through to commentators in this country
24:55
so they know how significant it is. They're just desperately trying to persuade people that it isn't
25:00
You've got the US ambassador to Israel describing Ed Miliband of hating Jews
25:04
which is an extraordinary thing to level at the Jewish son of a Holocaust survivor
25:08
but hey Huckabee's going to Huckabee and the other we can't expect him
25:12
I know but we still have to talk about him as if he's a significant figure in this conversation
25:17
because he's the US ambassador to Israel this is the world that Donald Trump built
25:20
it is but the significant people have to be those on the end of such catastrophic abuses of international law
25:28
have to be yeah and the other point that people miss is the one that you make
25:33
is that this is a straight choice between sitting on our hands, sitting on the British government's hands
25:40
while Netanyahu and Ben Gavir and Smotrich and the rest of them
25:44
continue their expansionist ambitions, despite being in direct and recorded contravention of international law
25:50
Absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the government has any desire whatsoever to stop it
25:55
So you either sit by and watch it happen, or you do something, and Ed Miliband has done something
26:01
I was delighted. It's why I was delighted to hear it. And I thought he gave the speech very well
26:07
And it did remind me that had he been better at eating bacon rolls
26:11
we could have had a very different history in terms of prime ministers
26:15
But it was a joy to hear, well, there's nothing joyous about the situation
26:19
but a joy to hear the Foreign Secretary in his official position
26:23
This is not a backbencher. This is not somebody resigning from government. This is the government saying, we do stand for a two-state solution
26:31
which has to be the only way to go forward. And as I said, Israel, in its official position
26:37
has made it more clear than ever before in the last three years
26:41
that they do not consider such a thing viable. The right to the self-determination of a people
26:46
is enshrined in international law. We have to stand up for that
26:52
We haven't stood up for much in that regard. But if we can, then we place ourselves again on the right side
27:00
of oppressor versus oppressed. I do have some concerns about anti-Semitism. Quite right
27:09
Because there are always concerns with that. And the thing is, it could be true. Anti-Semitism is an evil mindset
27:15
And, of course, you might watch events in Gaza and attack Jews as a consequence
27:19
You might watch sanctions be introduced and attack Jews as a consequence. And that makes you disgusting and it makes you a criminal
27:25
But the conflation cannot be policed on one side of the argument and not on the other
27:30
You can't have Benjamin Netanyahu claiming biblical justification for what he's doing
27:34
and then saying, oh, don't bring Jewishness into it. You just can't. It's ridiculous
27:39
But he quite likes both sides of the cake. Well, he's also accusing everybody of lying at the moment
27:44
not just us, of course, and Ed Miliband, but also the UAE president, who Haaretz reported yesterday
27:51
had called Netanyahu in September of 2023 to deliver a harsh warning
27:55
that Hamas were planning an atrocity of exactly the kind that was subsequently perpetrated
28:01
And as far as I can tell, Netanyahu has responded to this by threatening to sue
28:05
But you're unlikely to see much mention of that coming out of the mouths of people
28:09
who are currently dedicated to attacking Ed Miliband. Chris, thank you. The phone lines are open
28:14
0345 6060 973. How significant is this moment? Are you heartbroken by it
28:21
Are you encouraged by it? Or, in the best traditions of this programme
28:26
are you something else? James O'Brien on LBC 10.37 is the time
28:31
Rebecca in Basildon up next I just want to add another question to the mix
28:35
that I didn't really fully articulate earlier and that question is this how did Benjamin Netanyahu
28:41
manage to turn the sympathy of the world into a criticism and condemnation
28:49
so acute that even a historically very supportive, some would say supine, you can choose your word
28:55
a supportive or supine ally like the United Kingdom has finally decided to act against his regime
29:02
How has Benjamin Netanyahu managed to do that to Israel? 03456060973. But the broader, much simpler question to answer
29:11
is how do you respond to this move by your government? Rebecca is in Basildon
29:18
Rebecca, what would you like to say? Hello, good morning. Just want to say, big fan
29:22
and felt like I, this is sounding very close to my heart. I felt like this was the time I was going to call in for the first time
29:28
Fantastic, thank you. But my, I guess I'm encouraged by it, and if I can tell a bit of personal background as to why
29:35
I was brought up in East London, went to a Jewish school
29:40
My family in Israel, and we were taught two things. Very intensely taught about the Holocaust, quite rightly, you know
29:50
And the slogan of never again was, you know, every year we do a whole term on it, you know
29:55
and we went to Auschwitz and Treblinka and had a really harrowing week
30:00
of this awful thing that happened. And it is awful. And it was terrible
30:04
And the words, never again, never again, never again. Yes. And then I and my grandma loved Israel
30:11
She, it was a, she sadly passed, but it was a whole, like it was a love affair she had with it
30:16
And we went on a school trip. Amazing country. And I always assumed I'd lived there
30:21
Until I went to Auschwitz. And we were standing in a circle and we're
30:26
and my teacher was praying. and it just was like, how can this be a thing
30:30
This is awful. Like, I lost all my faith in that moment. That genuinely was a complete turning point for me
30:38
Because how could God allow this to happen? I mean, it's one of the great philosophical questions
30:41
of the human race, isn't it? But also, but how can, like, I kind of
30:46
religion as a whole, and I know that's a messy topic, is how can we live in, you know, how can we
30:51
how can that be a thing where because you're Jewish, this is a thing? Yes. So then, again, so then you've got this, like
30:57
love affair with each other. You know, I do. It's an amazing country. And what a shame. I'd love to
31:00
take my children there and I don't think I ever will because of all of this. I just think..
31:04
Because of what Benjamin Netanyahu has done. Yeah, but my grandma lived in... She used to say to me, it'll happen
31:10
again, Sarah. It'll happen again. Sarah, that's my sister. Rebecca. She used to say to us
31:16
all the time, you know, you're going to... You know, this is going to happen
31:20
again. I'd go, don't say that. I want to have children. Please don't. And she's right, but she got it
31:26
wrong at the same time and it breaks my heart because i'm like why was this drummed into me
31:31
at school just for you to go and do it again that's how it really feels and that and that
31:37
because i see the pictures and it makes me furious because you know no it wasn't a waste of time the
31:43
story you just told of the little girl in the car and this is one of the reasons i felt compelled to
31:49
call in i've been to jerusalem not jerusalem somewhere in israel there's a yad vashem which
31:53
is the Holocaust Museum, and you go in a very beautiful dark room, and they read out every
31:58
child that died in the Holocaust, and they ask you to remember one name and walk out
32:02
with that name, and then you tell that story, and you just think, what are we doing
32:07
And so when Ed Miliband, I do think it's poignant, he's from a Holocaust survivor
32:11
is saying, what, you know, we're not, what you're doing, this is too far, I kind of feel
32:17
like saying, like you said, too little, too late, no, but better late than never
32:21
Yeah, both at the same time. And I just, the whole conflict, I kind of go a bit mute on it
32:27
because I don't feel like I fit in the Jewish community anymore, but I equally understand why anti-Semitism is the way it is
32:35
And because I can't, I just can't comprehend it, but I also feel like a lot of the Jewish people that I have spoken to..
32:41
You are comprehending it. You're helping other people listening to this comprehend elements of it
32:45
but your perspective is obviously very personal. Yeah, and I do speak to Jewish people, and there'll be..
32:51
And I understand why there's a lot of fear. There's a lot of trauma that feeds through
32:57
and I know that's my experience. I'm fearful of saying this. Someone goes, oh, are you Jewish
33:02
And I go, oh, no, no, I won't be. Because they automatically presume you're in favour
33:06
of what has happened in Gaza and the West Bank if you do say yes. Yeah, but then if you speak to someone that's Jewish and you don't
33:12
it's disgust. The response is disgust. I understand it as fear. I understand it as..
33:18
Well, it's your grandmother's fear. It's your fear of it happening again. and therefore I think, and you'll know more about this than I do
33:23
but I've spoken to a lot of people over the years, I think that that, and I do understand this completely
33:31
that fear morphs into support for whatever is done by whoever is in charge in Israel
33:37
When they either dress it up or don't even bother dressing it up
33:41
as an act of self-defense, everything is justified. I discovered that doing phone-ins about it years ago
33:47
and then it came back like an express train in the aftermath of October the 7th
33:51
because people move very quickly to nibbling at the edges of the assertion
33:56
that I don't care how many Palestinians die, it's justified. And that is why you suggest
34:02
that your grandma got it the wrong way around. Yeah. And like I said, the thing that really..
34:08
And I kind of... I remember being at school and I was going in the Balkans and stuff, and this idea of never again has always baffled me
34:15
It's like, I feel like they need to add on never again to us, And then we can all go, oh, that's what you meant
34:21
And I feel like that's where I get really stuck in the throat
34:25
if you like, where I just think, what do you mean never again? You know, like why have memorials like Auschwitz, for example
34:31
if we're going to then, like, you know, I've forgotten his name
34:35
but he put up a video, didn't he? An AI video of going, oh, we're going to do that again
34:39
Get rid of the museums then. You know, and I don't think that. Oh, you mean Ben Gavir putting up the AI video of Palestinian people
34:47
going down a sort of conveyor belt, looking happy and well-fed, and then going into an Israeli facility
34:51
and coming out looking emaciated and broken. Mm-hmm. Why have I had to grow up learning about the trauma
34:59
And it does impact me a lot. I can tell it does. I've learned about it. I can tell it does
35:03
And then to see it, I just... And that's why I think it's..
35:07
I don't understand why this hasn't happened sooner, but I'm glad... I'm hoping..
35:11
You know, obviously with the change in our leaders again, hopefully we're on to something brighter
35:16
in terms of more action. that's a genuine hope. I don't know how much I backed that up
35:21
but that's what I hope. And this is the start of that. And hopefully we'll see it in other areas as well
35:25
But, yeah, I felt compelled to say something because I do understand why it's viewed as anti-Semitism
35:32
I do. Anti-Semitism is real and it's vile. And no one knows more about it than Ed Miliband's mother or your grandma
35:39
And yet to use it every single time somebody says, please don't kill little girls like Hind Rajab
35:46
please don't kill anybody else, please stop killing, and you know, the same way that after October the 7th, you
35:52
looked at Hamas and said, you are despicable, you are inhuman, stop
35:56
And the idea that that makes you Islamophobic, or that criticising Netanyahu makes you anti-Semitic
36:02
I think it hurts people like you more than it hurts almost anybody, actually. Yeah, because I don't
36:08
view myself as an Israeli, and then to be brushed with that, and at the moment I wouldn't even say I view
36:13
myself as Jewish, because not because that's a lot to do with what happened when i was in auschwitz and stuff but that's a
36:19
separate thing but if someone taught us you know i would find it baffling and i admire the people
36:26
that go the jewish people that go and protest yeah and say no we're actually we don't agree
36:31
anti-israel protest like credit to them because i think there needs to be that differential
36:36
it's mad that there isn't but that kind of i like it's that kind of uh i guess just reading
36:42
in the headlines isn't it is that short-sightedness and people like suela braverman and many others
36:47
actually not all as as far out as her they're calling them hate marches and and trying to get
36:53
them prescribed because you if you allow criticism it just spreads the understanding of what has gone
37:00
on that you've articulated quite brilliantly it just spreads and spreads and spreads which is why
37:05
they have to say it's lies and it's why they have to say no journalists allowed because quite quickly
37:11
People could see that the response to the October the 7th terrorist attack was not a response to the October the 7th terrorist attack
37:17
It very quickly became something much bigger and much worse Yeah and it always nice in a way it no different to what was happening The Nazis filming the concentration camps because they wanted to go look how good we are look what we did That was the plan And they used clips of it in Schindler List and things like that
37:35
And you sort of, it feels like that. It feels like they're going, we don't want you to tell your version of it
37:40
but when it works, we'll tell you our version of it. And look how good we are. And it just feels really, you know, just disgusting
37:47
I'm trying to think of a fancy word, but it's not. It's really bleak. Can I think this editing it to be anything other than, like you said, ethnic cleansing
37:56
I just don't know what we're doing. And I'm so pleased that Ed Miliband has stood there and gone
38:03
no, we're done with this now. Because the alternative is continuation. And this is just so blindingly obvious that you wonder where 80% of the commentary this morning is coming from
38:12
What is the alternative? Nobody's offering an alternative. Either we carry on or we don't
38:17
and our allies have so far not done a lot to make sure that we don't carry on
38:23
And Ed Miliband and Andy Burnham, let's remember, this will be on his watch
38:27
this is on his watch, they have. Can I ask you a weird question? Thank you
38:31
Because you've spoken a lot about your personal background and I understand your battle with your relationship with faith
38:37
Everything you've said has been really, really inspiring to me. Do you think that somebody who wasn't Jewish
38:45
could have made the speech in Britain in 2026 that Ed Miliband made yesterday
38:51
I think yes. For me personally, would it have had as much weight
38:56
No. They could have made it, but I think maybe it would have been
39:01
the anti-Semitism might have been amplified. You know, like you can almost disqualify some of that
39:05
because you go, well, the Jews said it, so it must be true. Do you know what I mean? I do, yeah, yeah, yeah
39:10
But I wonder if it did come from something that wasn't Jewish, people would go, oh, there's another one, doesn't like us either
39:17
Oh, well, they definitely, definitely would. And that's why I think that it would have probably not been delivered
39:23
in quite the way that it was yesterday. No. Thank you for that
39:29
No worries. I can see that this, you know, the news is not something, especially when you've got personal investment like yours
39:34
that you can just turn off like a film, is it? It stays with us all the time sometimes
39:39
And this issue perhaps more than any other for you. Yeah. Yeah, and I do, and I, I mean, this is the first time I guess I've sort of spoken out loud about it, if you like
39:48
But, you know, my brother and his wife, they were saying, oh, we're going to trip to Poland and we're going to go to Auschwitz
39:54
And this is the first thing that comes to my mind. This, what's going on now, not what happened all those years ago
39:59
Because I, and I said it was powerful and I, and I think everyone should go there
40:03
And it's awful. It's one of the worst things I've ever done, but best things I've ever done
40:07
Yes. And I was like 15, you know, and I, and I think about it all the time
40:11
I remember seeing a rabbi. The thing that's most pointing to me is that seeing a rabbi just break down
40:16
He just fell apart. And that, for me, stood out so much. And I just think, like you said, it's kind of that, I don't know, let's do something with what we're learning
40:26
And we're just not. And I think I have kept to myself throughout all of this because it just feels so helpless
40:33
And it's escalating. Every time I listen to your show or read the news or whatever, it's escalating
40:37
It's escalating. But no one's doing anything about it. And you feel like you're going mad
40:41
like, but we know what this looks like, so why is it what we're doing
40:46
And I mean, God knows doing your job, but, you know, I kind of just feel like
40:49
it was not, maybe, if this could have been done three years ago, brilliant, but
40:53
alas, or two years ago, alas not. Yeah, I mean, it was always hard to pinpoint the moment
40:58
at which the response became disproportionate, but as we've discussed it, I mean, it moved into
41:04
something much more than response pretty quickly. Twelve nations, including France and Canada now
41:09
announcing it, and it looks to me as if this has been
41:13
masterminded by the British government, this shift in our position after a summer of intense diplomacy
41:21
And you're right, it's the scariest thing though, isn't it? Hope. Yeah, yeah. Clinging on
41:28
to it. All the time. Rebecca, you take care, alright. Thank you
41:32
And thank you for that. A lot of love for you coming into the studio. Some criticism from
41:36
a man called Nick, but otherwise love coming in for you and the position that you have made
41:41
It's 10 to 11. James O'Brien on LBC. 10.53 is the time
41:48
The chief rabbi, the British chief rabbi, describing yesterday as truly a dark day for British Jews
41:55
the longest-serving member of Conservative Friends of Israel, describing it as a moment for freedom and decency
42:04
and Ed Miliband, the son of a Holocaust survivor, are accused effectively by Sir Ephraim Mervis, the chief rabbi
42:12
of emboldening those who use hatred as a weapon against Jews. There is a danger in..
42:22
I think there's a danger in attributing any form of logic to anti-Semites
42:27
just as with all racists. The idea that this is a logical position
42:33
that is somehow a consequence of logical processes or thought processes, is, in my view, wrong
42:39
It's a visceral ancient hatred. It doesn't even have to be ancient, of course
42:45
But it is not a kind of mathematical equation whereby X plus Y equals Z
42:52
And the chief rabbi seems to be suggesting that it is or indeed that all British Jews will be..
42:59
Well, let me tell you how Ed Miliband responded to precisely this point
43:02
when Nick Ferrari asked him earlier this morning. you reference the jewish community there is considerable concern and you spoke movingly
43:09
about your jewish background as well but you're aware that the chief rabbi says this was and i
43:13
quote truly a dark day for british jews he goes on to say it could further embolden those at home
43:18
and abroad who use hatred as a weapon against jews your reaction to that well i speak as a proud
43:25
british jew and i don't believe it was a dark day for for british jews obviously i have huge
43:31
respect for the chief rabbi, but I believe it must be possible
43:35
to stand up for British values of the rule of law, freedom
43:39
and dignity. Hang on a minute. But you're a supremely educated man
43:43
Let me just finish the point. Freedom and dignity and stand up to anti-Semitism
43:49
and the key point I made in my statement Nick is British
43:53
Jews, or Jews anywhere, should not be held responsible for the actions of the government of Israel
43:59
That is anti-Semitism. I heard you say that But you are a supremely well-educated man
44:05
And you know... That's nice of you to say. Well, you are. As someone who is so blinded by hatred
44:11
are you honestly expecting them to be able to see the division
44:14
that you are correctly calling for? They won't, Foreign Secretary. They will be, to use the words, they will be emboldened
44:21
I don't believe... You're bright. Many of my listeners are bright. Not all your voters are. Not all of my listeners are
44:26
And that's what we've got to guard against, Foreign Secretary. We absolutely have to guard against it
44:31
But we cannot set our compass as a country by, as you put it, people blinded by hatred
44:38
We have to deal with them. We have to arrest them when they commit crimes
44:42
And we have to do absolutely everything we can to protect the Jewish community
44:47
And that is what we will do. So I hadn't listened to that in full before
44:52
I'd listened to elements of it. Obviously somewhat inconveniently It makes the point I was making you are blinded by hatred You not sitting there going oh that changed I will now change my position and my reaction
45:07
Anti-Semitism is a blind hatred. You are as likely to indulge your anti-Semitic vitriol as a consequence of watching the British government do nothing to stop ethnic cleansing
45:18
as you are, well, I would personally argue that you are less likely to indulge your anti-Semitic vitriol
45:25
as a consequence of watching your own government do something to stop the ethnic cleansing
45:29
But, of course, that's the point that Nick, I think, unintentionally made there
45:34
that you can't be possessed of blind hatred while at the same time be responding
45:41
with a sort of form of logic to impetus and provocation. And I mean, almost all of the right-wing media in this country at the moment is in a tailspin
45:51
It doesn't know what to do. Front page of the Daily Mail, Miliband accused of putting Jews in UK danger
45:56
Same newspaper, of course, that described Ed Miliband's dead father as the man who hated Britain
46:01
How about Holocaust survivor's son accused of putting Jews in danger in the UK
46:06
And then you'll get an indication of how bent the coverage of these issues has been
46:10
How difficult it is to just find a light and find a truth
46:15
And I don't do this very often because it always sounds a little bit kind of chocolate box
46:20
There's no earthly way I could have got through these conversations without you
46:24
Not just the people who ring in. Rabbi Jeffrey, whose son, Sam, rang in yesterday
46:29
All of the callers today, Rebecca being the latest in a very long line of incredible human beings
46:34
who've helped us navigate this territory. My friend Bella, who emails me regularly on this subject about her family in Israel
46:41
Noga Tarnopolski in Jerusalem. I mean, it is, sometimes when you see it, Miliband accused of putting Jews in UK in danger as the line that the most prominent right-wing newspaper in the country adopts
46:54
And remember that they could equally have published Holocaust Survivor's Son accused of putting Jews in the UK in danger
47:04
when you see the chief rabbi talking about a dark day for British Jews
47:08
when so many of them have queued up on this programme to condemn the actions of Benjamin Netanyahu
47:15
and to plead with Western politicians to do more. And now they are
47:20
Let me squeeze in Amar in Watford. Amar, what would you like to say
47:25
Good morning, James. I want you to raise double standards in this country on two fronts
47:32
I think you've alluded to one of them just now. The chief rabbi says sanctioning illegal settlements amounts to an attack on British Jews
47:40
He is the one that's treating Israel and British Jews as one and the same
47:44
If action against Israel is an attack on British Jews, he's saying the two are one and the same
47:49
And he's exactly the same person who asks why anti-Semitism happens to British Jews
47:55
when it's exactly that conflation, beating criticism of a foreign government as an attack on a domestic community
48:02
that blurs that line and fuels the confusion. It doesn't blur, does it
48:06
I mean, it just wipes it out entirely. And Netanyahu's been doing it for years
48:09
And, I mean, you know, you've got to be better. So you try to police that conflation
48:17
and then the people who are complaining the loudest about the conflation do the most conflation
48:22
It's insane. When you see it, you can never unsee it. But some people, I guess, are willfully blind to coin a phrase
48:29
And the other guilty party I want to call out, which really gets me, is the far right
48:35
Guess who is screaming loudly about sanctions against Israeli settlers? The far right
48:40
The same people who scream about illegal immigration in this country are the ones that are cheering on an illegal central invasion
48:46
of the West Bank. It's a strange point. It is, but the same British flag-waving patriots
48:53
Well, I haven't seen it myself. I'm not going to challenge you, because I'm sure it's true. But the point here is that these are..
48:59
I mean, these are actual refugees forced to come here via routes that are now technically illegal or irregular
49:06
And what you have going on in the West Bank, as Ed Miliband pointed out yesterday, is genuine terrorism
49:12
So we treat refugees like terrorists. And the people who treat refugees like terrorists want us to treat terrorists like victims
49:21
Yeah, the same. It's a really good point. On many protests regarding illegal immigration
49:28
They carry Israeli flags with them as well. I haven't seen that myself. Again, I'm not calling you a liar
49:34
but I'm just saying I haven't seen that myself. You can have a look online in many places
49:38
And just one thing, the last thing I wanted to call out, sorry, about the UK, you know
49:45
the sanctions that were announced yesterday. I think it's reassuring. However, the UK, remember, has a lot to answer for here
49:51
It created this crisis in the first place with the 1917 Balfour Declaration
49:56
It's the end of the hour. It's the end of the hour. We can't start 1917-ing it now
50:01
and I'm not being glib or flippant. I'll be brief. But no, you've already finished
50:06
and I don't mean that rudely. I'm late for every junction. I've got to start... But you're right
50:10
I mean, no, well, quickly, in a sentence, because I don't want anybody to think that I'm cutting you off or closing you down
50:14
Yeah, sure. A ban on settlement goods a century later after Belfort Declaration
50:18
is barely a first step towards a wrong Britain has never fully righted
50:22
There you go. There you go. It brought it in bang on time. Almost. James O'Brien on LBC
50:28
Five minutes after 11 is the time. I'm minded to move on
50:33
This conversation, of course, will be conducted everywhere today. But I do think the single most important element of it is one thing on which perhaps everybody could agree
50:42
is that conflating the Israeli regime with Jewish people is deeply dangerous
50:49
And the best place to start the process of stopping that from happening would probably be with the Israeli regime
50:55
or indeed with the chief rabbi because I don't understand how you can say
50:58
oh you're not allowed to do that thing that I'm doing and if everyone can agree that no one should do it
51:03
then we can begin to make some process some progress here I may take a couple more calls on this
51:09
because it's obviously such a deeply important issue but I also want to reflect upon something
51:15
that sounds relatively trivial in comparison but will feel anything but for the people caught up in it including
51:20
members of my family so I got that message yesterday the flight's been cancelled
51:26
and I thought oh god I walked through the newsroom I came off air yesterday and I heard a bit of chitter chatter
51:32
about air traffic control but I I'm a busy man I had stuff to do
51:36
and I hadn't thought of contacting my family members to say um
51:41
oh there's something a bit funny going on with air traffic control you might want to look into it
51:46
and then you get to the airport and they say the flight's been cancelled
51:50
and there are no more flights to London from this airport for four days
51:54
and I don't know whether we're going to do a phone-in on this
51:59
because it may be that we carry on with the conversation that we've been having. The bottom line is, what the hell do you do in that moment
52:10
So I, yesterday evening, was trying to find routes out of Greece
52:17
routes out of the bottom of the Peloponnese back to London and as I was watching the screen, trying to book flights
52:23
that there were seats left on a flight and by the time they verified my payment that comes back and says sorry that can no longer be processed And then you go back through the process and there no longer any So every Brit in Greece last night yesterday evening
52:36
is like doing what I'm doing, finding a way back. So you can't fly from there, get yourself to Athens
52:43
you can't fly into the Heathrow or Gatwick, get yourself to... I felt like a spy
52:47
I felt like an espionage expert trying to get an agent, exfiltrate is the word, isn't it
52:52
I was trying to exfiltrate two agents from Greece back to Britain
52:57
and I succeeded, but only two days late. So two more, two days later
53:02
I mean, I just want, right, anyway, I'll move on briefly, but if you are caught up in this
53:08
or if you've got family members caught up in this, you've seen the cots, right, at the airport in Germany
53:13
just wheeling out beds. The idea of a holiday ending in a way that is going to bring you back home
53:19
more stressed than what you were when you went on holiday is extraordinary
53:23
So what is going on in your world on that front? We may get on to that
53:30
We may not. It is eight minutes after 11, and Johnny is in Bristol to continue the conversation
53:34
about Ed Miliband's speech yesterday. Johnny, what would you like to say? Yeah, hi, James
53:40
Yeah, I wanted a call because Rebecca, I've got a similar emotion towards what's going on
53:48
So I actually, my name's Krant. Well, I go under the name Krantz. Hello. Oh, and thank you
53:53
You're the guy that turned me into a kind of... Sort of rapper
53:57
Yeah, a kind of rapper, I suppose. I'll share some links later in the day, but thanks for that
54:03
It's nice for you to put a voice to the name. Well, there's more to come. It's just been a bit of a difficult journey in recent times
54:10
But we can get on to that. So part of the reason is that I chose the name Krant
54:15
because of my Jewish heritage. I've never been religious. I used to dislike going to Hebrew classes immensely
54:23
I was very aware from a young age that it doesn't make sense
54:27
much like Rebecca, how can God exist when certain things happen in the world? But I had very positive experiences through being Jewish
54:34
Part of my social life when I was younger, I went to the Maccabier Games twice
54:39
I don't know if people know what the Maccabier Games is, but it's kind of like a Jewish Olympics, I guess, in Israel
54:43
And I also managed to go to play football in Hawaii because I played football for a club called Wingate and Finchley
54:48
which gave an opportunity for, let's say, aspiring footballers to be sort of semi-professional
54:53
So I've had some great experiences. The last time I went to Maccabir Games was 13 years ago
55:00
And just to go on what Rebecca said about Yad Fashem, I went there
55:04
And although, like I said, not being religious, not believing in God, it was a profound experience for me
55:09
And so profound that we went there as a group, as a football team
55:14
and we actually went there together. and I was so long in there, they thought I'd gone
55:19
I came out of Yad Vashem and everybody's gone. Because I walked through, took in everything
55:24
read all the scriptures, listened, watched horrific videos because my grandpa and granny escaped a ghetto
55:31
They were actually warned, well told by a soldier because my grandpa was a pianist, much like I am
55:37
But he was a pianist and he was very entertaining and he was quite charismatic. Not a very nice man in the end, but at the time, very charismatic
55:44
and they escaped. He managed to bribe some German soldiers on a train
55:49
and they managed to get up to Britain. So I've worn that story or told that story many times
55:54
although, again, not being religious. And I'm at this point now where I chose the name Kranz
55:59
as sort of a heritage position, it should be my surname. My grandpa, my grandpa
56:03
For people who don't know, that's your sort of, the artist's name that you use
56:09
That's your name as a musical artist who makes what I believe are called banging tunes
56:14
So just for people who aren't following that bit of what you're telling us
56:18
But the rest is easy to follow. Yeah, yeah. So I just, as a heritage, because I've always warned that I'm Jewish
56:25
but I'm not religious. I've always very much felt that I am, I don't know, part of a race
56:29
I don't know if that's the right way to put it. But I have a history. It doesn't matter. The thing is, it doesn't matter how I view myself
56:35
whether I view myself as Jewish or not, people will view me as Jewish. Well, and I'm going to say this carefully
56:41
because I didn't say it to Rebecca, and I know you all know it. including the SS
56:47
So it wouldn't matter to the SS how Jewish you were or whether you went to synagogue
56:51
or whether you were observant or devout or any of those things
56:54
You would have been rounded up regardless. So I always think that gets sometimes perhaps overlooked
57:00
by people whose family history is more like mine than yours. Yeah, I had a discussion with someone recently
57:06
He said, well, if you don't think you're Jewish, you're not Jewish. Yeah. And I was like... Wow
57:11
I mean, honestly, as someone who's reasonably bright, and I was like
57:16
but mate, it doesn't matter. Like, it really doesn't matter what my opinion is
57:20
and that's why I have to speak up. That's why I have to try to be one of these people
57:23
who says, I am not Israeli. I am Jewish. Even though I'm not religious, I'm Jewish
57:28
There is a separation, and it's been so hard for me because I've had some really big arguments with my family
57:33
Unfortunately, my dad died earlier this year. I'm sorry. So thank you
57:37
We had arguments about it. I'm not talking to my brother as much as I used to
57:41
by any means, because I saw things at the start. I watched certain people
57:46
I want to give a shout out to Carl Kalinsky of Secular Talk. I think he's incredible
57:50
And he's always been very factual, driven. And there was a lot of information that came out that I saw
57:57
that I believed to be sort of true. Tried to share this with my family and just don't, don't
58:02
will for ignorance. Don't want to listen. Thoughts. Is it that any critique of what Netanyahu
58:12
whose regime is doing, is wrong. I mean, it can't be allowed
58:17
Whether or not it's anti-Semitic or not, we'll probably get on to. But is it simply the case that you can't have a conversation that is not one-sided
58:27
Yeah, I think it's Israel. Whether it's Netanyahu, I think it's just Israel
58:31
Okay. I think that now, you know, for growing up and... It's weird, though, because Israel under Yitzhak Rabin is an unrecognisable country
58:39
compared to Israel under Benjamin Netanyahu. if we're going to use the word as a sort of synonym
58:44
for what the regime is doing and what the regime represents. But that's the, this is where we go if it happens again mentality
58:52
It doesn't actually matter who's in charge. Israel itself supersedes humans as the place of refuge
58:59
and the place of safety. So we can never criticise Israel. Ah, I get it
59:03
You can never criticise Israel. It doesn't matter what is happening. You just can't criticise Israel
59:07
because it's where you go when it starts happening again. Yeah, but even though, how can it be safe when you have missiles being fired
59:13
I mean, I'm always like, I've lived in London, well, now I'm Bristol, but I lived in London, lived in Bristol
59:18
Yes, I had a knife held up to my throat when I was younger in Edgware, but, you know, things happen
59:23
You know, I don't then tarnish every single non-Jewish person as someone who's going to hold a knife up to my throat, right
59:29
And I've had anti-Semitism in Bristol when people said someone, I'll stop being Jewish
59:33
And I'm like, wait a minute, I'm Jewish. And they're like, no, you're not. I'm like, what, because I don't have long sideburns and I'm not wearing something on my head? Yeah
59:40
And I think the problem is, is, yeah, it's Israel as a whole. I don't think it matters
59:44
There's this whole ingrained, Israel's the safe haven, Israel's where they sent Jews to be safe
59:49
And I'm like, oh, sorry. Oh, how do I cancel that? How do your family account for critiques like, or, I mean, like mine
1:00:00
Yours, for someone who's not Jewish, this is why I'm fascinated by the question of whether or not somebody who's not Jewish could have made the speech that Ed Miliband made yesterday, but how do your family think that everybody who criticises Israel is being anti-Semitic
1:00:13
yeah i mean yeah in a way yeah i mean i when i spoke to my brother when i said to my sister one
1:00:20
one of my sisters i don't think they'll listen to this but you never know i said to me about we
1:00:24
i was talking about what happened to bob villain and all the sort of seminar around that saying
1:00:29
oh i didn't feel it was anti-semitic yeah and i said about well you know about rabbis criticizing
1:00:33
israel and she was like no that's bull and ran away and i'm like yeah she literally said that's
1:00:39
rubbish and i'm like and what what can you do i mean i can show footage i can show video i can
1:00:45
i can say you've seen this i spoke about the Hannibal directive literally about a month after
1:00:50
it happened i tried to talk to my brother about it i said there's footage i've seen footage of
1:00:55
course we don't definitely definitely know but again the sources that i watch and listen to have
1:01:00
always been very consistent and have generally been correct if not they say look we can't verify
1:01:05
But I mean, it's a weird one, this. And just for people who don't know, it was rabbis like Charles Boginski and Josh Levy saying that Israel's direction poses an existential threat to Judaism
1:01:18
That's the UK's leading progressive rabbis warning about that in a way that got covered so carefully and so fairly by the British media that your sister managed to be entirely unaware of it
1:01:28
And there are plenty of other examples of this as well. But here's the thing. I get it
1:01:34
I actually get it. I've always got it, and I always will get it
1:01:38
And I don't want it to sound like it's sympathy for ethnic cleansing apologists or anything like that
1:01:44
but the Holocaust, and maybe this changes with the passage of time
1:01:48
and we spoke to somebody yesterday who felt that it was, another Jewish man
1:01:52
who felt that it was already changing. And I know that the foundation of Israel
1:01:56
was not a response to the Holocaust, although it's often perceived as that
1:02:00
for a whole bunch of reasons. But that line, it's where we go when it starts happening again
1:02:07
You and Rebecca have both talked about your experiences at Auschwitz and at the memorial
1:02:17
I get that. I get how that would... You know, you try and imagine what you'd be like if you were someone else
1:02:22
If my granddad had died in the Holocaust and Israel was the place of safety in this world
1:02:27
when the whole world turns on us again, I think I could easily have been one of the people
1:02:31
who will see no evil hear no evil and speak quite a lot of evil
1:02:36
but the thing to me is I'm a humanist this is what I don't get
1:02:40
I'm someone who looks and goes you know what, that's my history but that's so many other people's histories as well
1:02:46
yes it was a huge amount of people and it's not that long ago
1:02:51
but continuing now in the past this has happened I'm a humanist, I don't take a Jew
1:02:58
or a Palestinian or a Christian or anybody differently. I view them as human
1:03:02
And when people separate it, although, yes, of course, I understand, like, my
1:03:06
brother's got to, I think, this girl's got to a Jewish school and they have security
1:03:10
there. This doesn't help. Like, this is what I'm trying to say
1:03:14
You're making my life now more in danger because of what you're doing
1:03:18
You're conflicting Israel and Jews. And the chief rabbi definitely does not talk
1:03:22
on my behalf. 100% does not speak to me and say that
1:03:26
as a British Jew, I have this. No, I'm sorry. I'm my own individual, like I said, I'm a humanist
1:03:31
everybody's life is equal. And I posed this question to my brother and my dad a few years ago. I said
1:03:36
but you do see a Palestinian baby and a Jewish baby as equal, right
1:03:40
Don't you? And I think people don't. And my brother said something to me
1:03:44
and whether people hearing this will recognise my voice, will recognise me. I said to my brother, we spoke about it
1:03:49
he said, well, some people just view other people's lives as not as much. Well, that would also be true of Hamas, wouldn't it
1:03:55
On October the 7th and other, I mean, an anti-Semitism involves seeing a Jewish life
1:03:59
as being worth less than other lives as well. But that's the beauty of humanism
1:04:03
is that you reject both of those positions with equal valor. Because I understand both
1:04:07
Lala, yeah. I understand, you know, but I said to my brother for years
1:04:10
can you read the Balfour Declaration? I don't know if you don't want to go back there, but I said, years, can you please read it
1:04:15
It changed me. I was having a debate on Facebook, and a guy said, well, how do you know the Balfour Declaration
1:04:21
And I was like, hang on, I don't. I went and read it, I came back, and I said, thank you
1:04:26
Because I didn't know about it. I was like, I want to know more. Yeah, I might be a very opinionated human, which I am
1:04:31
but I'm willing to take information that I don't know, and readigest and see, like, well, what opinion can I have now
1:04:37
And that changed things for me, knowing there was an agreement that was put in place
1:04:41
that's not being held. And in fact, it's got worse and worse and worse. It's just sad
1:04:46
It saddens me. It is just sad. Yeah, it saddens me so much
1:04:50
It's all sad. It's sad on an international level. It's sad on a moral level
1:04:53
It's sad on a human level for you. It's sad on a family level, you know, fractures in families are terrible things
1:05:00
Talked about them a lot in the context of the far right rising in this country of Brexit and Farage
1:05:05
But for Jewish families, you've got this entirely different dimension, this entirely different experience
1:05:11
And it is just really, really sad. Maybe that's the starting point, Johnny. Everyone who feels sad can come together and begin the process of decoupling
1:05:21
I will tell people a little bit more about your other work a little later
1:05:26
when the tone of the programme has shifted slightly as it surely will
1:05:30
thank you mate and thanks for all the stuff you've done as well
1:05:34
because I love it 20 minutes after 11 is the time I'm just going to read you something Johnny
1:05:38
before you go are you still there? I'm here because this is Jonathan Portes
1:05:41
who's a brilliant academic at King's College London where he's a professor of economics
1:05:49
and public policy I'm a big admirer of his he referred to that statement by the chief rabbi
1:05:55
that you spoke about a minute ago by saying the chief rabbi speaks for Netanyahu
1:05:59
Ben Gavir and their apologists in this country. Ed Miliband speaks for me and many other British
1:06:05
Jews and I think we need to hear more of those voices don't we? 100
1:06:09
and that's why I'm grateful to you for being here today it's 11.21
1:06:13
James O'Brien on LBC 3 minutes after 11 should I do some
1:06:19
professional presenting? for a moment. I mean, it'll never catch on. But John Ronson will be joining us at about
1:06:25
half past twelve today to talk about his incredible new book, The Castle
1:06:29
That is where I discovered the statistic I've been hitting you over the head with recently about there being a million middle-aged
1:06:35
men in the United States of America who could be accurately described as NEETs, not in
1:06:41
education, employment or training. The book is subtitled Adventures in a World
1:06:45
of Unraveling Men and it looks at all sorts of examples of men who are just not
1:06:51
really coping with the sea of conflicting ideologies that we are all in at the moment
1:06:58
He follows some extraordinary individual cases, and like pretty much nobody else writing today
1:07:05
he gets to the heart of some of these issues in ways that I wouldn't have thought were possible in a hundred books, let alone in one. So John will be with us at half past 12
1:07:15
at the end of the program today we will be with reen ap you're with who is the welsh first minister
1:07:22
i might think i may have been a little bit remiss on my promise to be more mindful of politics in in scotland wales and northern ireland than i am traditionally So we trying to fix some of that as well And of course at 12 o today you got PMQs which I am because I weird slightly excited by
1:07:39
The second outing for the new-ish Prime Minister Andy Burnham. And after half past 11 today we're going to talk to George Graham, not that one, from Save the Children on the response of what you might call the international humanitarian community
1:07:53
to what Ed Miliband announced yesterday. But before that, I also do want to talk about
1:07:59
what's going on with the air traffic control and people who are literally stuck
1:08:04
I mean, this is, you know, I've got a wife and daughter who phone me or text me
1:08:11
to say, we don't know how we're going to get back to Britain. And I'm like, we can't be, because I'm a 21st century boy, right
1:08:17
So I'm thinking, I should probably not have said that out loud, should I
1:08:20
I'm a 21st century boy. I'm an old git that just happens to be alive in the 21st century
1:08:25
And I thought, well, we'll get it. It'll be easy. We'll be able to get back. You can get yourself to Athens
1:08:31
You can't fly out of the airport that you're near. Get yourself to Athens. Do this, do that. We'll be fine
1:08:35
And we couldn't. It's like days. You're looking at how do you get..
1:08:39
Well, it's going to be days. And you're not going to be able to fly back to the airport
1:08:43
where the car's parked. First world problem, obviously. But this is absolute chaos
1:08:48
Chris is in Southampton. Apparently, it's all your fault. yeah apparently it is all my fault
1:08:52
it feels like that way yeah so my flight crew was flying on
1:08:58
funnily enough Friday and that was the day when it's a bit more minor news
1:09:02
but an aircraft couldn't vacate the runway in Gatwick and that aircraft caused a bunch of our aircraft
1:09:09
to be diverted because they couldn't land there it is we've got a glitch on the line
1:09:16
you couldn't make this up could you I lost that then So why couldn't that aircraft go out of the way
1:09:24
It couldn't get off the way. Sorry, I hope the line's okay
1:09:28
But, yeah, it couldn't get off the runway because there's something wrong with its landing wheels
1:09:32
When it landed, the wheels managed to turn basically 90 degrees to the direction of travel
1:09:37
So it couldn't get off. So our aircraft couldn't land. It went somewhere else
1:09:41
So we went out of hours on a flight on Friday, and that's the first time I've ever done that
1:09:45
And then the second time I've ever done that was yesterday. so I just had two in a row and it was
1:09:51
quite a Celtic day where we didn't get a lot of information so I don't think there was any information
1:09:56
to be given so it's a shame for us you're a pilot
1:10:01
are you? you're in the front of the plane and you don't really know what's happened
1:10:08
no absolutely not unfortunately so when I reported it had just started
1:10:15
so everything in the airport seemed relatively okay it was all hopefully going to blow over in a matter of minutes
1:10:23
it was only once we kind of got the passengers on and we said that we were ready to go
1:10:27
that you could start to hear the chatter on the frequency that no one had a clue what was happening
1:10:32
including unfortunately very patient and I can't praise enough the air traffic controllers
1:10:37
who were answering every question in the best possible way they could
1:10:41
because every pilot wanted to know exactly what time It was going to go..
1:10:46
Yeah, they did brilliantly, really, given the circumstances. But at one point, we were given a bit of hope
1:10:52
when they said that a certain departure can go... So people heading in a certain direction were allowed to leave
1:10:58
only them, because they'd get out of the UK airspace the fastest. And we were one of those
1:11:03
I can't do it. The phone line's gone. This must be what it's like talking to air traffic control during a storm
1:11:07
I'm sure it's nothing like that. Chris, thank you. Just to clarify, because someone's confused in my inbox
1:11:12
that was not one plane that then caused the massive break. That was a completely separate incident
1:11:18
that Chris was comparing what happened subsequently to. I mean, you've got another 190 flights cancelled today
1:11:26
by British Airways alone, of course, because crew and planes are out of place following yesterday's disruption
1:11:31
260 of, and this is just one airline, flights cancelled yesterday. And what I found weird
1:11:38
we're not going to dwell on it unduly, I don't think, because the conversation we're having about other matters
1:11:43
is so profound and important. But what I found weird was my naive supposition
1:11:50
that I'd just be able to work it out. You know, I've got to get two family members back from Greece
1:11:56
and their flight's been cancelled. And then the full scale of the problem became clear to me
1:12:02
and that you're not going to get anything today, or certainly you weren't going to get anything yesterday
1:12:06
an option of flying to Rhodes and then kicking your heels for six hours
1:12:11
and then perhaps getting a flight to East Midlands Airport or something like that
1:12:15
I couldn't believe that in the 21st century and the way that we've all been raised
1:12:20
I couldn't believe it was possible to just get stuck somewhere. We're just stuck
1:12:25
There's nothing we could do. There's a glitch with the air traffic control system back in the UK
1:12:31
So we are stuck. We might have to swim home or we might have to hire a car
1:12:35
or we might have to fly to another European country and then hopefully get on the Eurostar
1:12:41
I fixed it all because I'm super dad. But it was extraordinary, that moment
1:12:46
once the panic had subsided about getting them out. Well, no, the panic rose
1:12:51
My initial reaction was, oh, this will be easy. You take it easy. I'll deal with it all at this end
1:12:56
because you're in an airport and your phone's low on power and all the usual family stuff that we've all dealt with
1:13:01
I'll deal with it. and then realising actually everybody in Greece is trying to get out of the country
1:13:07
and that won't just be Greece. It'll be everyone flying back to Britain. It'll be Spain and France and even Middle Eastern countries
1:13:14
and everyone's trying to book up flights. So Wednesday filled up really, really quickly
1:13:19
and I just missed that one, and I could only get one seat on that one, and I want them to come back together Thursday
1:13:23
And you suddenly realise this is what they mean. Now, the government has been adamant
1:13:28
that this is not cyber warfare. This is not a cyber attack. And I'm not a conspiracy theorist
1:13:33
but I would add they would say that, wouldn't they, at this point. But when you hear people on this programme warning about the war
1:13:41
that Russia believes it is already waging against us, Vladimir Putin, of course, the politician that Nigel Farage admires the most on this planet
1:13:49
although I presume Donald Trump is giving him some competition for that title at the moment
1:13:54
Donald Trump's been insulting the king, by the way. I must tell you a little bit more about that before I have time
1:13:58
you hear people going oh yes there's cyber warfare I think Luke Harding was here the other day
1:14:05
wasn't he talking about how Vladimir Putin thinks that he's at war with Britain
1:14:09
and that war is being conducted on technological fronts so most obviously by polluting
1:14:16
our public discourse gaslighting and brainwashing people so that you get events like the ones you saw
1:14:21
in Dover and Portsmouth this weekend it's not just about the messages
1:14:26
it's about the amplification of the messages and the way that they're being put in front of people
1:14:31
And Brexit and Trump and all the rest of it. But then, of course, cyber attacks upon our infrastructure
1:14:37
And the government is adamant that this was not a cyber attack. But if it had been, the absolute metaphorical carnage
1:14:44
that can be wreaked upon our population simply by messing up one computer system
1:14:51
I don think we really across that or properly conscious of it It 11 Dominic Ellis is here now with the headlines James O on LBC 26 minutes to 12 You are listening to James O on LBC
1:15:06
So we know what the Chief Rabbi thinks about the British government
1:15:11
For many people, belated imposition of sanctions on illegal settlements, occupied in part by people he described as terrorists
1:15:21
we know what quite a lot of British newspaper editors or British newspaper owners
1:15:26
or British newspaper columnists think about it I thought it might be helpful to find out what
1:15:32
Action Aid UK, Save the Children UK Quakers in Britain, Amnesty International
1:15:37
Kabul, Medical Aid Palestinians Christian Aid, War Child, Women for Women International
1:15:44
War on Want, Islamic Relief Global Justice Now, CAFOD, Oxfam Muslim Aid, find out what they think about it
1:15:52
And happily, George Graham, who is the executive director for Global Impact
1:15:57
at one of those organisations, Save the Children, is with me now
1:16:01
So that's 16 charities that I can count. And today you speak more or less as one, George
1:16:08
Yeah, that's right. I think all of us are pleased to see
1:16:12
that the government has moved to a position that more clearly clarifies
1:16:17
that the Israeli settlements in Palestine are illegal. And from our point of view as humanitarian organizations
1:16:26
the issue is less to do with illegality, it's to do with the impact, right? And I represent Save the Children
1:16:31
and the impact on children of having often violent settlers disrupting their lives, attacking them
1:16:40
making it very, very hard to do things like get an education
1:16:45
and also really quite severely affecting their mental health. That's what we're concerned about
1:16:51
And this is a clear signal that the UK agrees with us
1:16:55
that that's not really a tenable position. I mean, that's the point. It's a clear signal that the UK is deeply unhappy about this
1:17:04
There's not much prospect in the short term of the lives of the children you and your colleagues look after
1:17:10
measurably improving, is there? Or is there? well the politics are very very fragile obviously and uh you know i'm not any better equipped than
1:17:22
anyone to sort of guess what the future is going to hold and what impact this uk government decision
1:17:27
is going to have but the reason we think a reason we think it's it's really important is because
1:17:32
all children around the world or people around the world regardless of who they are regardless
1:17:37
of their race or their religion or anything about them, they should have the same basic rights
1:17:43
And for those rights to be upheld, there needs to be a sort of consistent international approach to everything
1:17:48
And in our view, what the UK is doing today is just being more consistent, right? It's applying the same basic standards
1:17:54
that it applies in lots and lots of other conflicts around the world. And that's a good thing because it means that those children
1:17:59
who have the misfortune of growing up in an occupied territory, have the misfortune of being the children of the enemies of a state
1:18:06
their lives don't have to be harmed as the consequence of that they get the same chances
1:18:12
to have a thriving childhood as any other child and it's not just the uk of course
1:18:16
yeah i think that you know that was um that's notable that the french the canadians and other
1:18:22
governments are doing the same they're making the same signal um i mean i don't really want
1:18:28
to talk about politics because i'm i'm a humanitarian so let's talk about that then
1:18:32
Give me an idea of what the difficulties representatives of organisations like Save the Children face when they're on the ground in places like the West Bank and presumably Gaza as well if you can get in
1:18:46
Yeah, well, let's start with Gaza. I mean, it's basically impossible to overstate the catastrophe that has happened in Gaza and 21,000 children have been killed
1:18:56
and just over the weekend 73 children were buried children who'd been um who'd been killed in
1:19:03
airstrikes were under rubble for years and years and years they were dug out and they were buried
1:19:08
and we know there are many many more still under the rubble but we can't get the equipment in
1:19:12
to to clear that rubble in order to give them a decent burial so that's gaza in the west bank
1:19:18
you have a different situation where children are trying to live normal lives they're trying to go
1:19:23
to school and access hospitals when they need to and so on but the whole terrain is cut up by
1:19:30
these israeli settlements and we've had this problem that we've heard a lot about in the last
1:19:34
few days of very very violent settlers attacking groups of palestinians attacking palestinian
1:19:39
villages killing children um and from you asked me what the impact is for representatives of
1:19:46
organizations like ours it means that it's very very hard to move around endless checkpoints
1:19:51
endless disruption and the result is you know kids not going to school for weeks and weeks or
1:19:56
months on end because they just can't get to school or because the quiz it takes two three
1:20:00
hours to get there and they risk being beaten up if they try so that's the sort of thing we're
1:20:05
dealing with and i mentioned at the start about the mental health impacts of this and and you know
1:20:10
we often think about physical health um and that's obviously a serious concern in somewhere like the
1:20:15
west bank but the mental health impacts are shocking i mean these kids are are dealing with
1:20:20
every single day and it's it's you know it's having very obvious impacts on them insomnia
1:20:25
anger agitation fear insecurity all the signs of poor mental health it's a really serious issue
1:20:30
did you think this would happen i mean i suppose in your line of work you have to be an optimist
1:20:35
rather than a pessimist don't you because you have to believe that you can turn back these tides
1:20:40
of misery did were you taken by surprise personally by the yeah i really like what you
1:20:46
just said there i mean i am an optimist actually and i always think that we can do better as a
1:20:51
species and we do do better there's lots and lots of progress that we see in the world um and uh
1:20:56
yeah and it's and it's a real privilege to get to work uh in an area where we make a difference for
1:21:02
people um and to answer your question yeah i was actually really surprised i mean i've um
1:21:06
i i've worked all around the world in you know many different war zones and one of those has
1:21:12
been Palestine. So I've been thinking about Palestine for maybe about 20 years and thinking
1:21:18
about different governments' responses to it. And you always get the same line. You always get
1:21:23
people say, yes, we know it's a very difficult situation, but there's really nothing we can do
1:21:27
And finally, we have a UK government saying, actually, there are some things we can do
1:21:30
and let's start doing them. And that sends a very, very powerful signal. And although
1:21:36
as we were saying earlier, no one can predict the future and the politics are really uncertain
1:21:41
we're optimistic. We're optimistic that the tide is turning. But you, and I presume your sort of fellow organisations
1:21:47
for the purposes of today's conversation, would like to see more as well
1:21:51
And actually, British public opinion is largely behind you on that. Yeah, I mean, this is the start
1:21:56
And I think, you know, the game changer is the British government
1:22:01
now acknowledging that the occupation is unlawful. And so that then has a flow of consequences
1:22:07
Because once you've said what the current situation is unlawful, then it becomes untenable not to take actions as needed to make that situation come to an end
1:22:18
and it should be possible for Palestinian kids to have roughly the same freedoms as Israeli kids
1:22:23
or indeed British kids any kids not to be living in fear to be able to go to school in safety and so on And this is a step towards that And I really hope that that vision of a future of a happier future that I just described
1:22:38
does come to pass. And it's possible, I believe. We have to believe that in a way we all do
1:22:43
George, thank you. George Graham, the Executive Director for Global Impact at Save the Children UK there
1:22:48
speaking on behalf of his own Save the Children and 15 other organisations
1:22:53
I'll run through them again in a moment. welcoming the Foreign Secretary's announcement in Parliament yesterday
1:22:57
which they say brings the UK closer into compliance with its legal and moral obligations to uphold international law
1:23:04
and protect Palestinians. They describe that every day their staff and partners
1:23:10
witness the intolerable suffering inflicted on Palestinian communities made possible by the impunity that has been granted
1:23:17
to the Israeli government for its ongoing atrocities. And those 16 organisations once again
1:23:22
Kabul, Action Aid UK, Medical Aid Palestinian, Save the Children UK, Quakers in Britain, Amnesty International, Skiyaf, Christian Aid, War Child UK, Islamic Relief UK, Women for Women International UK
1:23:34
These are all the UK branches of the charities. War on Want, Global Justice Now, Muslim Aid, CAFOD, that's the Catholic charity
1:23:44
I've put plenty of money in their envelopes over the years. And Oxfam GB
1:23:48
it is coming up to 11 45 i've kept esther on hold for hours so um let's fix that now esther is in
1:23:56
newcastle esther what would you like to say hi james it's really good to speak to you i'm a long
1:24:01
time listener thank you um i'm calling as an orthodox jewish woman um and i'm i'm calling
1:24:08
about what you said i didn't verify it that apparently netanyol um cited biblical reasons
1:24:15
for the expansion and the settlement and everything. Yes. So, I wanted to say that that is just absolutely, totally wrong
1:24:24
Netanyahu's government are not religious orthodox, they don't ascribe to the Bible
1:24:28
they don't learn the Bible in depth, and they do not seek guidance from religious scholars
1:24:32
who study the Bible in depth. No, but he seeks justification for what he does
1:24:38
with kind of slightly, I mean, clumsy and ill-informed biblical references. Right, right, right
1:24:46
OK, but he's wrong. Yes, I know that. But you're not correcting me, are you
1:24:50
You're just helping my listeners come to a better understanding of him. Exactly
1:24:55
You're allowed to correct me as well, by the way, just to be absolutely clear. You're more than welcome
1:25:01
Yeah, I'm helping your listeners understand that Netanyahu's comment was completely... He shouldn't have made that comment
1:25:06
and it doesn't make any sense. What about these... Because it's not just him
1:25:11
The chief rabbi in this country as well is saying that the move
1:25:15
that we've just heard 16 charities, humanitarian charities, responding to, the chief rabbi has chosen to describe it as a dark day for British Jews
1:25:23
Was it a dark day for you? No. I don't know exactly what the chief rabbi said
1:25:31
And if he's saying that, he's probably just afraid that other people will turn more into Semitic from it
1:25:39
I guess, I'm guessing that's why he would make such a comment
1:25:45
Truly a dark day for British Jews. It's Labour's gesture politics and it will, he says
1:25:50
further embolden those at home and abroad who use hatred as a weapon against Jews
1:25:55
So, I mean, that is what his argument is. And, I mean, I've spent the whole day..
1:26:01
I mean, I would only see how that would make sense in the context of assuming that people will use these kind of things
1:26:14
to be anti-Semitic against British Jews. Well, that's a conflation. In the past, he... Right
1:26:21
But I know. So I guess I'm not conflating it at all
1:26:25
And I think he's wrong from making such a strong comment, but I guess it comes from still of people who are conflating it
1:26:34
Yes, yeah, I mean, that's the unravellable ball of string, isn't it
1:26:39
Is that people who fear people conflating it, conflate it. Yeah, yeah, I guess
1:26:45
Which is absolutely insane. Esther, thank you. I'm sorry that I kept you waiting for so long
1:26:51
You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Can I talk about Donald Trump again
1:26:59
I mean, I'm supposed to talk about, and PMQ's is on the way shortly, The insult that he's directed at King Charles overnight
1:27:06
I mean, a hideous insult in many ways, but we're so used to it by now. Remember, this, of course, is the man
1:27:11
that Dick Littlejohn of the Daily Mail thinks or wants to be governing the United Kingdom
1:27:17
I just use him as an example of how absolutely bonkers much of the right-wing media in this country is
1:27:24
The worship for Donald Trump appears to continue, and nothing breaks it
1:27:28
So I was going to tell you about him insulting the king. instead I think I'm going to share with you
1:27:33
well I'll do both but what would be the one thing in the anniversary, the 25th anniversary
1:27:37
of the September the 11th terror attacks what would be the one thing
1:27:41
that you shouldn't do okay that normal people shouldn't do, oh it doesn't work
1:27:47
either, so obviously celebrating them is going to be disgusting but if you were, I mean what
1:27:53
would be the one job you just say don't lie about it right wrong
1:27:59
James O'Brien on LBC It's 11.51 You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:28:07
Extraordinary events in the United States of America And almost a kind of
1:28:13
An almost reassuring sense That you can still be shocked So the 25th anniversary of the September 11th terror attacks
1:28:25
Is almost upon us it falls well you know when it falls but it's going to be on friday this year and we will pay
1:28:33
proper um attention to it at the time but i was going to talk to you about donald trump posting a
1:28:39
doctored video on social media in which it is made to look as if a man working for asda
1:28:45
fainted in front of the king and the king did absolutely nothing about it just sort of stood
1:28:50
there with his hands in his pockets and um and appeared to walk away in the full video he did
1:28:55
the opposite. You know, he moved quickly to try to stop the supermarket employee from falling and
1:29:01
only walked away, only stepped away when it was clear that he was receiving medical attention
1:29:06
But one of his sort of mad followers has put together footage of world leaders seeming to
1:29:10
ignore people in distress while Trump is depicted as the people's president. I mean, this is full-on
1:29:16
totalitarianism or fascism or whatever you want to call it, because it's false. I mean, it's like
1:29:22
like Stalin erasing Trotsky from pictures. It's just utterly, utterly false. But this is what his fans like Dick Littlejohn at the Daily Mail lap up
1:29:31
They love being lied to. Even when it comes to the single greatest peacetime atrocity
1:29:40
visited upon American soil. He was speaking from the White House yesterday when he claimed..
1:29:47
Well, you listen to what he claimed. I just thank my people
1:29:51
I took a lot of my, I was building a big building in New York and I took the whole crew down there right after this happened and they were
1:29:59
They had no hesitation. Everybody went down with me. We went down as a big group of people
1:30:05
Wasn't too much we could do. I'll be honest. It was it was raw. Nobody seen anything like it ever
1:30:11
We had other buildings. United States Steel Building was creaking, really creaking
1:30:16
Now, we thought it was going to fall down. The truth is it creaked a lot. It creaked
1:30:20
It still creaks, but it never came down. And I'll never forget two firemen. We thought it was
1:30:29
coming down on top of us and two firemen big strong guys and i'm not the smallest guy in the
1:30:34
world they grabbed me under the arms they got to get out of here and they literally lifted me up
1:30:40
this is not easy to do i'm big they lifted me up and they started running with me i said fellas i
1:30:47
can run myself but they were amazing but they thought it was coming down it didn't come down
1:30:52
um ask for evidence for trump's story or more details about what supposedly happened the white
1:30:57
House did not provide any. He was miles away from the World Trade Center. That is known. That has
1:31:02
been a start. Just think about this for a minute. Some people can't be reached. Some people have put
1:31:07
everything they own on Donald Trump, so they can never, ever step back. But think about this for a
1:31:12
minute. He's been telling this lie for years, by the way, and he just unraveled it again at the
1:31:17
White House yesterday, claiming to have been carried away by firefighters amid fears of an
1:31:21
imminent building collapse at some point after the attack. Literally nobody has ever corroborated
1:31:27
or supported his version of events. So what happens is the White House fails to provide any details about what happened
1:31:36
And then the White House sends out an unsigned email saying he was a private citizen at the time
1:31:40
Not everything he did was documented. And then later in the day, his spokespeople, someone called Davis Ingle on this occasion
1:31:47
start attacking the media. President Trump spent the morning paying tribute to the heroic first responders
1:31:53
who laid down their lives to others in the September 11th attacks and honouring their incredible families
1:31:57
The president was relaying his experience of a city, and on it goes
1:32:02
the failing legacy media is using this to try to attack him. It's a disgrace and yet another reason why Americans' trust in the media is at an all-time low
1:32:10
So the president lies about something as significant as September the 11th
1:32:16
and his minions try to turn it into an attack on journalism
1:32:21
trying to turn it into an attack on journalists. Funny that we began the programme this morning talking about people who attack those who tell the truth
1:32:27
and here we are again um back in april press conference about the war in iran he um well
1:32:36
you have a listen to to what he did in april and i predict all of it i predicted
1:32:41
osama bin laden would knock out the world trade center i made that prediction a year before he did
1:32:48
i said you better get him he's a bad guy i watched him be interviewed one time and i said that's a
1:32:54
bad guy you better get him one year before exactly i wrote it in a book you can even check about a
1:33:01
year before the world trade center then came down president clinton actually had a shot at him and
1:33:07
he didn't take it unfortunately i'm not blaming him for that but he didn't take it and uh he ended
1:33:15
up knocking down the world trade center but i predicted that i predicted a lot of things
1:33:19
anyway dick littlejohn at the daily mail thinks that this guy should be governing the united
1:33:25
kingdom bear that in mind um he said didn't he you can check so you can check the book's called
1:33:33
the america we deserve um this is what he wrote one day we're told that a shadowy figure with no
1:33:38
fixed address named osama bin well this is what somebody wrote but the book was published under
1:33:42
donald trump's name one day we're told that a shadowy figure with no fixed address named osama
1:33:47
bin laden is public enemy number one and u.s jet fighters lay waste to his camp in afghanistan
1:33:51
he escapes back under some rock and a few news cycles later it's on to a new enemy and a new
1:33:56
crisis i find this extraordinary i said i tell you again i'm reassured that i can still find this
1:34:02
stuff extraordinary after having so much of it over the years i guess it's because of the
1:34:07
significance of september the 11th right it's because you know he'll lie about everything and
1:34:12
anything but you still think somewhere inside well he won't lie about that they've got to be
1:34:17
some things that are sacred. He won't spread doctored footage of our king
1:34:22
Yes, he will. He won't lie about September the 11th. Yes, yes, yes, he will
1:34:28
And he's been doing it, count them, for 25 years. As you walked around and as you saw the piles of rubble
1:34:37
there are thousands of families out there who are hoping that someone might be in a pocket somewhere
1:34:43
still alive, still breathing, waiting to be dug up. as you assessed that damage from your perspective
1:34:48
Do you believe that's possible? Well, I would certainly not want to be the one to say it's not possible
1:34:53
Certainly it's a tough situation, but you can't give up hope because there's always hope
1:34:58
I mean, the five men, I'm sure their families thought that they probably were gone
1:35:02
and now they walk in the door. A couple of them walked away after they were dug out
1:35:06
So there probably are some more people in there and therefore you can't give up hope
1:35:11
He wasn't at Ground Zero. I mean, he simply wasn't. And, finally, one thing we do know that he did on that day, on the actual day, September the 11th, 2001, is this
1:35:26
Donald, you have one of the landmark buildings down in the Financial District, 40 Wall Street
1:35:31
Did you have any damage or did, you know, what's happened down there? Well, it was an amazing phone call I made
1:35:36
40 Wall Street actually was the second tallest building in downtown Manhattan
1:35:41
And it was actually before the World Trade Center was the tallest
1:35:44
and then when they built the World Trade Center it became known as the second tallest and now it's the tallest
1:35:50
2,977 people dead. Oh, and he's lying. It didn't become the tallest building
1:35:58
And that's the man that Dick Littlejohn of the Daily Mail thinks should be governing this country
1:36:02
or wishes was governing this country. I'm fascinated by all of the people
1:36:08
who used to use that phrase Trump derangement syndrome. Here he is insulting the king
1:36:13
Oh yeah, well, you know, that's... And here he is lying egregiously and repeatedly
1:36:17
about the September the 11th terror attacks. Nearly 3,000 people, well, well more than 3,000 people
1:36:25
who have died as a consequence, but just under 3,000 on the day
1:36:30
Absolutely extraordinary. And I think I went through a little period of not doing this
1:36:34
because it just felt pointless. It's never pointless. Ed Miliband kind of proved that yesterday
1:36:39
The truth is never pointless. Just keep telling the truth and eventually it matters
1:36:43
and that is what we've seen on the domestic political front in the last 24 hours
1:36:48
and what we will hopefully see soon on the international political front
1:36:53
But it is to the domestic political front that we return now. Natasha Clarke is here. PMQ's number twos
1:36:58
Number two. I presume you're saying that in reaction to being Andy Burnham's second Prime Minister's questions
1:37:03
Yes, yes, yes. Of course. And, yeah, as you were just saying
1:37:07
and you've obviously been speaking about the Israel news, the Palestine news for the last 24 hours
1:37:13
It would seem like a bit of an open goal for Kemi Bade not to go in on this. She wants to make this a bit of a dividing line, doesn't she
1:37:19
She doesn't agree with the decision. The British public does. The British public does. And many Labour MPs as well
1:37:24
So it could be an issue that will get both sides animated Edward Lee doesn Edward Lee doesn as you played How does the Tory do we know how the Tory sort of parliamentary party breaks down on this I mean historically Labour supports Israel
1:37:39
So it's not necessarily written in the stars, is it? No, it's not
1:37:44
But I think what you've heard from Kemi Baden-Ock over the last 24 hours is she's trying to make it about security concerns
1:37:50
She's trying to make it about antisemitism, accusations on Britain's streets and how British Jews feel
1:37:55
And obviously you do have some, you know, very prominent Jewish voices, including the chief rabbi, voicing their very measured concerns
1:38:01
So will she use that to try and further her argument on this case? I think probably that's the case
1:38:07
Also, other options that she could go for, the economy, obviously John Healy making a major speech on Monday
1:38:12
talking about what will be in the budget or what won't be in the budget
1:38:16
his principles going forward, changes to the Treasury rules, changes to how he thinks that the country needs to go
1:38:22
in order to see that growth that obviously has been eluding for so long
1:38:26
And obviously what you've been also discussing, James, those small boat arrivals in Dover
1:38:29
the protests that we saw in Dover and Portsmouth causing that major disruption over the weekend
1:38:34
Do they speak as one on that? I mean, it sounds like I'm plugging my newspaper column
1:38:39
but I have written today about how they both need to come out and describe, essentially, I don't use this word in the column
1:38:44
but fascism as fascism. You know, ersatz paramilitaries dressed to intimidate, arriving with their faces covered in the middle of British communities
1:38:51
that they haven't been invited to. And simultaneously, a woman being battered in public
1:38:57
at the Reform UK party conference by fans of Nigel Farage, who then goes on to laugh about it
1:39:03
and compete with Lee Anderson and Robert Jenrick for who can be the most crass and offensive and victim-blaming
1:39:08
Is there any chance whatsoever of them joining forces to say this isn't British and this isn't right
1:39:14
probably unlikely. It'd be good, though. I mean, Babanot would come out looking fantastic if she said
1:39:20
does the Prime Minister agree with me that this behaviour is utterly, utterly..
1:39:24
Well, let's find out, shall we? Mr Speaker, after last week's session
1:39:31
the country was thrown into confusion over whether the Prime Minister was or was not
1:39:36
going to fund 3% for defence by 2030. After today, he'll have another five weeks off PMQs, but there are some serious threats to national security that cannot wait
1:39:50
His Chancellor resigned as Defence Secretary because the Labour government would not increase defence spending to 3% by 2030
1:40:00
Does the Prime Minister think he was right to quit? Mr Speaker, as I said last week
1:40:08
I appointed this Chancellor because of his strong commitment to the defence of this nation
1:40:15
that was the reason why and we will honour our NATO commitments
1:40:20
3.5% by 2035 and a target date for three and that will all be set out in the spending review
1:40:28
Mr Speaker I don't feel though that you get the right to come to this House
1:40:34
and claim the moral high ground and point fingers wherever you can
1:40:38
when defence spending was 2.3% of GDP and fell during 14 years of a Conservative government
1:40:48
On this issue, I think we should do more problem-solving than point-scoring
1:40:53
And I say to the Right Honourable Lady, we would do our armed forces well
1:40:58
if we could agree on this crucial issue more across the floor of this House
1:41:05
Mr Speaker, the Prime Minister wants to talk about the past on defence spending
1:41:09
So let me refresh his memory and the House. I remember when he was Shadow Home Secretary
1:41:15
when the Labour leader wanted us to leave NATO, disarm our nuclear deterrent and defund the army
1:41:21
So I will not be taking any lectures from him. He says the target is 2035
1:41:30
2035 is a decade away. If he can't get to 3% by 2030, why should we believe he'll get to 3.5
1:41:38
by 2035? The spending review is next year. Last week, I set out how we would get to 3% by 2030
1:41:46
The threats are now. Argentina is threatening the Falklands now. Russia is threatening us in the
1:41:52
North Sea now. And Mr. Speaker, he didn't answer my question. He didn't answer my question. The
1:41:58
The Chancellor was right to quit. I asked him if he was right to quit. The Chancellor was right to quit, which is why it's so wrong that he's not sticking to his principles
1:42:06
The Chancellor used to say not hitting 3% by 2030 would put our troops at risk
1:42:11
He also said Keir Starmer was unable and the Treasury unwilling to provide that funding
1:42:17
So is the Prime Minister unable or is he just unwilling to get that money by 2030
1:42:23
Mr Speaker, this Chancellor of all Chancellors will be willing to provide that funding to our armed forces
1:42:32
Back our defence investment plan. This government's commitment, Mr Speaker, to the defence of this country is absolute
1:42:41
We've taken the strongest possible stance in supporting President Zelensky and Ukraine
1:42:46
We are playing our role around the world and we will continue to do so
1:42:51
Mr Speaker, she mentions the plan that she has set out. And this is why I say we should have an honest conversation across this dispatch box
1:42:59
Because I looked at it and I don't think myself that taking £4 billion out of housing benefit
1:43:07
is going to get the right consensus around this issue. Because that would create levels of homelessness in this country, Mr Speaker
1:43:19
that we wouldn't have seen before, hundreds of thousands of children in temporary accommodation
1:43:26
Can I say to the right honourable lady, yes, we do everything to support our national security
1:43:33
but it can't come at the expense of social security. Having strong national security
1:43:40
also depends upon having resilience in our communities. this side of the House will not be forced to choose between the two
1:43:52
And we will set out a plan to get to 3.5% by 2035 at the spending review
1:44:01
Unbelievable, Mr Speaker, that the Prime Minister would say that. He is clearly unwilling
1:44:06
We need to fund our defence, not spend all of our money on welfare
1:44:11
I cannot believe that he would actually say that. He is clearly unwilling, but Mr Speaker, there are ways to do this
1:44:17
He's not unable. There are ways to do this. On Monday, Chris Rockus, Britain's third biggest taxpayer, announced he was leaving the country
1:44:25
That's £330 million of taxes walking out the door because of this Labour government
1:44:31
Every year, Mr Speaker, £330 million. His taxes could be going on defence
1:44:36
The Prime Minister is talking about spending more on welfare. The benefits bill is set to rise by £32 billion under him
1:44:44
The benefits bill is set to rise by 32 billion. That's not all of it
1:44:48
That's the rise. That money could be going on defence. The Prime Minister won't approve the Rosebank oil field
1:44:54
1 billion pounds of tax revenue that could be going on defence So will the Prime Minister tell the country where is he going to find the money to fund our defence
1:45:06
So, Mr Speaker, I can't comment today on decisions that are quasi-judicial decisions
1:45:13
but we will take a pragmatic approach to oil and gas, as I've said before, at this dispatch box
1:45:19
And let's get to the heart of this question, Mr Speaker, as she invites me to do
1:45:25
And what is the right way to fund defence? And yes, bring the welfare budget down
1:45:32
So she would make crude cuts to housing benefits. And as I've said, if you take £4 billion out in the next few years, you will make families homeless
1:45:44
You will increase rough sleeping on our streets. So here's the Labour way, the way that we do it on this side of the House
1:45:53
We have set out plans for the biggest council house building programme this country has seen in a generation
1:46:04
And if you look at research from the National Housing Federation, you will see that is the route to save billions from housing benefits
1:46:15
We will shortly respond to the final report of Alan Milburn, who is looking at the issue of young people not in education, employment or training
1:46:27
Again, something left behind by the last government. We will take the Labour way, change education, support our young people, more mental health support
1:46:39
That's the Labour way to get the welfare bill down. and I say to the honourable lady, that is the right way to fund defence
1:46:49
No, it is not, Mr Speaker. The truth is he doesn't know where he's going to find the money from
1:46:54
That's what I said. He doesn't know where he's going to find the money from. He's talking about anything except defence, cancel housing
1:46:59
He won't fund the military. I'll tell you what he is funding though, Mr Speaker. I'll tell you what he is funding
1:47:04
Keir Starmer's £35 billion surrender of the Chagos Islands and its crucial military base
1:47:11
That is British sovereign territory. This is a weak decision, and it is no wonder that Argentina is now threatening the Falklands
1:47:22
We need to project strength. We need to show that British sovereign territory is non-negotiable
1:47:29
So why, just like Keir Starmer, is he planning to surrender the Chagos Islands
1:47:34
Mr. Speaker, I have to say to the right honoured lady, she does have to do better than that
1:47:43
I mean, they are the worst kind of points to be scoring when the country is watching
1:47:54
We will not surrender our base at Diego Garcia. We are in discussions with the United States about that
1:48:02
And we will always respect the rights of the Falkland Islanders to choose to be British
1:48:07
That will never change under this government. And we will be relentless in defending that
1:48:15
Mr Speaker, we are talking about paying £35 billion to give away British territory
1:48:22
And all of that is happening while his government is cancelling £30 million of vital training for British soldiers
1:48:30
The Prime Minister may be new to the job, so let me tell him what may not be in his briefing paper
1:48:36
Last year, last year, defence funding fell in real terms. That is on them. To govern is to choose
1:48:44
So why is he choosing to spend £35 billion to Mauritius when they cut the money to train our troops
1:48:52
Mr Speaker, I don't think she's on strong ground when it comes to defence spending
1:49:01
It was 2.5% of GDP when the last Labour government left office
1:49:06
It was 2.3% of GDP when the government she was in left office
1:49:13
It's now set to be 2.7% in the next year. So that is the reality of the situation, Mr Speaker
1:49:22
A government that is strong on the defence of this country. That is what we are doing
1:49:29
It's why we've set out a defence investment plan that will be fully funded
1:49:34
I say to her again, it would be better to work across the floor of this house to get a fully and securely funded path to 3.5% of GDP by 2035 that won't change under any government
1:49:51
That would send the strongest possible message to our armed forces. This is an area for problem solving rather than point scoring
1:49:59
I invite her to work with us on that so that we can set out that clear path
1:50:08
Mr Speaker, the Prime Minister seems to think that the last government was a Conservative government
1:50:13
The last government was a Labour government. And it failed, which is why Keir Starmer resigned
1:50:19
He keeps talking about their record as if it was fantastic. If it was, then why is Keir Starmer not sitting there
1:50:26
Where Britain needs leadership, what we have at the moment is just vibes
1:50:31
He said he appointed the Chancellor because he cares about defence, but he won't fund it
1:50:35
Other countries are making claims over our sovereign territory. They smell weakness
1:50:41
He's pretending that he's the change candidate. But the fact is, he's still failing to cut welfare
1:50:46
He's still paying to hand over a sovereign territory. He is still not funding defence
1:50:52
So on the issues that really matter, isn't he just continuity care
1:50:59
Mr Speaker, she mentions leadership. Let me tell her and the whole House where Britain is showing leadership
1:51:12
There have been conservative politicians at this dispatch box, Labour politicians too, for decades, who've talked about the importance of the two-state solution between Israel and Palestine
1:51:29
Words from any politician about a two-state solution will be only words if it's not backed with action
1:51:38
And leadership is about taking action where there is injustice, where we need to correct unfairness
1:51:47
People being driven out of their homes, losing their homes, being intimidated in their daily lives
1:51:53
I credit the father of the House who yesterday applauded the action that this government is taking
1:51:59
In this difficult and dangerous world, Britain has to stand for something
1:52:05
Britain has to show leadership. Britain has to stand for fairness against injustice
1:52:11
Where people are being bullied out of their homes, intimidated, we will always stand with the underdog and take what action we can to support them
1:52:20
That, Mr Speaker, is leadership on the world stage. Britain being true to what it always been about That is what the British people expect of us and that is what this government will do Mr Bacon I don need advice from you I am not responsible for the answers The Prime Minister answers the questions Don look to me please Right Sarah Hall
1:52:45
Thank you Mr Speaker Mr Speaker the Prime Minister grew up in Warrington
1:52:51
so he will know our town has changed enormously but too much of infrastructure people depend on
1:52:57
has not changed with it much of Warrington Hospital was built in a different century
1:53:01
for a much smaller population while Broomfield's leisure centre is at the end of its life
1:53:06
its pool now closed on safety grounds will the Prime Minister come home to Warrington
1:53:11
meet me and set out how the government will deliver the infrastructure my constituents deserve
1:53:16
Thank you. Can I say to my honourable friend, I'm a more regular visitor to her constituency
1:53:23
than she might realise, constantly nipping in and out for various reasons
1:53:29
So I know Warrington well. I believe it is a success story, actually
1:53:34
something of a jewel in the North West Crown, a growing town
1:53:39
You could almost say a city it should be, given how successful it's been in recent times
1:53:44
but it does need new infrastructure. I would like to see a remodelled Warrington bank key
1:53:49
with high quality east-west, north-south connectivity running through it. And when it comes to leisure, Mr Speaker
1:53:57
you know this as much as anyone in the House, perhaps more than anyone, this is a Prime Minister that will back grassroots sport to the hilt
1:54:04
And I can assure her I'm happy to talk to her about the leisure centre that she mentioned
1:54:09
I'm watching Warrington Bulls at Hilt. Sir Ed Dave, you're leader of the Liberal Democrats
1:54:14
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I associate myself with the Prime Minister's opening remarks, not least on the 25th anniversary of the horrific terror attacks of 9-11
1:54:23
And can I welcome the government finally banning imports from illegal Israeli settlements, something Keir Starmer should have done a long time ago
1:54:32
And on back British Farming Day, can I also celebrate British farmers
1:54:36
But I hope the Prime Minister will do more than that, and I hope he will end the family farm tax
1:54:41
Mr Speaker, last week I asked about North Devon's maternity unit, which is still closed
1:54:47
This week I have to raise Musgrove Park's hospital, where his Labour colleague Baroness Amos
1:54:53
found the most challenging maternity estate in the whole country. She described leaking roofs, a ceiling propped up by poles, and room temperatures that put
1:55:03
newborn babies at risk. Mr Speaker, no mother should have to give birth in such circumstances
1:55:10
So does the Prime Minister agree that Musgrove Park can't wait until 2033 for work to start on a new maternity unit
1:55:19
Will he offer a meeting to local MPs so we can move it forward
1:55:23
And will he make fixing the maternity scandal across our country a top priority of his government
1:55:32
A fair question, Mr Speaker. Let me first thank him for his support for my Right Honourable Friend's statement yesterday
1:55:41
I think it is important that there is support across this House for what was announced
1:55:47
We've all stood together for the two-state solution. The reason why my Right Honourable Friend decided to announce what he did yesterday, when he did
1:55:57
is obviously the E1 settlement tender concludes before the Israeli general election
1:56:03
It was important to make a clear statement of where Britain stands, for Britain to show leadership
1:56:10
And that is what we've done. But we appreciate the cross-party support
1:56:14
On British farming, I hear what he said. I will set out more measures later
1:56:18
I did look into the issues with North Devon, Mr Speaker, and he will soon receive an update from me
1:56:27
He mentions Musgrove Park Hospital in Taunton, a hospital I know, Mr Speaker
1:56:32
It points to a systemic challenge facing maternity services across the country, as various reviews have said
1:56:41
It is why my right honourable friend the Health Secretary will next week be chairing a meeting of the Maternity Task Force in the Department of Health
1:56:50
And we will make sure all of the issues being raised, including at the hospitals mentioned, are looked at in detail
1:56:56
Sir David. Can I thank the Prime Minister for that answer? Britain should be the safest country in the world to have a baby and we will keep raising this issue until it is
1:57:07
Mr Speaker, the best legacy of the last Conservative Prime Minister is our world-leading AI Security Institute
1:57:15
It is now essential to our national security and global security in the age of artificial intelligence
1:57:22
But today, the Financial Times is reporting that Anthropic did not submit its latest model to the Institute for Testing, apparently due to pressure from the Trump administration
1:57:36
Does the Prime Minister think it is acceptable for President Trump to undermine Britain's efforts to keep the world safe from dangerous AI
1:57:45
Well, on the specific issue, Mr Speaker, can I say that the Institute that he mentioned is indeed a world leader and is in daily conversation with industry partners, including Anthropic, and those conversations will continue
1:58:05
On the broader issue, he is absolutely right that AI poses risks to our national security, but it also could be the source of solutions to keeping us safer
1:58:19
And that was a discussion that we had yesterday. Mr Speaker, it's why I appointed a Minister for Artificial Intelligence to the Cabinet
1:58:30
We have lifted the level of the conversation about artificial intelligence within government
1:58:37
And the offer is open to colleagues on all sides of the House who want to be a part of that crucial discussion
1:58:42
Mr Speaker, it is clear to me... 22 minutes after 12, we will pick over the bones of what we've just witnessed in a moment
1:58:52
And then John Ronson is here to talk about his new book, The Castle. And then I will be meeting, I nearly said introducing you to
1:58:59
but of course you've probably already met them but the First Minister of Wales will be in the studio
1:59:03
with me as well before one o'clock today I know what you're thinking you're thinking, gosh James, what a time to be alive
1:59:10
James O'Brien on LBC One minutes after twelve Natasha Clarke is LBC's political editor
1:59:16
well you've done it again, did she mention any of the things No, totally wrong
1:59:20
I'll let myself out I'm genuinely surprised that she didn't try to, I mean because
1:59:25
she reminds me of Boris Johnson in one sense which is that an awful lot of what she does that isn't motivated by being on Twitter
1:59:31
is motivated by what right-wing newspapers are doing. And they're all united in trying to condemn Ed Miliband and, of course, Andy Burnham
1:59:40
for yesterday's announcements regarding sanctions. So I thought she would go in on that and she completely ignored it
1:59:44
I thought she would. He was expecting it as well because he had that thing prepared. Yes, he did. And at the very end of his final question to her
1:59:51
he then used it to launch into a very powerful defence of why he's made the decisions that he and Ed Miliband have made on Israel
2:00:00
settlements and what we saw yesterday and yes absolutely she would have been right to talk
2:00:04
about all of the criticism of it the chief rabbi the the idea that it risks our security there's
2:00:09
lots of sort of meaty topics for her to get into but she chose to do the same topic that she did
2:00:14
last week and i wouldn't do it very well last and maybe she's come back for another go because she
2:00:18
thought she might do better she's done well on defense in the past right why she i think she
2:00:22
reached for that lever um but i didn't think it was very good this week they all do don't they
2:00:26
They all like getting in tanks and things like that. Who was... Johnson was in a tank
2:00:30
Don't speak for yourself. I love being in a tank. Theresa May getting in a tank. Liz Truss got in a tank
2:00:34
I mean, they all get in tanks. It's just like tanks, tanks. Tanks, tanks, tanks
2:00:38
But look, I think it didn't work out well for her. I think we can agree on that
2:00:42
And it came across as, like I say, just not really the topic of the week
2:00:47
But he did have a very powerful answer on Israel. I thought that we really saw the real Andy Burnham come out there
2:00:53
And, you know, he comes across sometimes when he speaks is a little bit stilted, Andy Burnham
2:00:57
and he speaks in quite a sort of static way, lots of pauses
2:01:01
and I don't think he's a natural orator. Better than Keir Starmer
2:01:05
Do you think? Yeah, absolutely I do. But I think where he comes into his own
2:01:11
was that question. The passion. The passion, and he was writing on Instagram
2:01:15
I don't know if it was him or his team were writing messages on Instagram
2:01:19
defending the deal, sorry, the announcement on Israel that the government have done yesterday
2:01:24
and why they were doing it and why it was so morally important to him. This is clearly something that really matters to Andy Burnham
2:01:29
and you can see the passion and it just shows you when politicians talk about something they actually care about
2:01:34
this is when the public see them at their best. So I think that was the best that we've seen Andy Burnham in the last two weeks
2:01:38
That was his most powerful question. Speaking of which, what do you think Kami Bader not really cares about
2:01:43
Because we've been watching PMQs together for some time now and I'd struggle to tell you, apart from Kami Bader not
2:01:47
Thanks, obviously. She cares about Kami Bader not and tanks. But does she have areas of policy that she feels particularly passionate about
2:01:53
I think I've probably reached for the lever of women and equality. She genuinely..
2:01:58
I think she would genuinely say that she cares about that, about the area of sort of, you know
2:02:03
what you and I would describe as sort of the woke debate that she's been having over the years
2:02:07
And I think she feels strongly about culture and identity. I think that's what she feels strongly about
2:02:12
And she does mention that at Prime Minister's Questions a lot, but it's not something that really gets to the heart of British sort of politics
2:02:17
No, although it is at the heart of John Ronson's new book, and he'll be joining me shortly to discuss it
2:02:22
It's a beautiful segue there. It's almost like we planned this stuff. Ed Davey, in sort of a fairly safe territory, really
2:02:29
on pointing out that, oh, hang on, we've missed something. Did I see the ghost of Jeremy Corbyn tearing at PMQs
2:02:38
for the first time in a long time? I know, and it wasn't even to do with Israel. The Israeli government abandoned him
2:02:42
which would be the topical thing to raise. Why did she invoke the ghost of Jeremy Corbyn? Gosh, I've literally forgotten now
2:02:47
Why did she bring that up? Oh, it was talking about defence, and she said, you know, Jeremy Corbyn, you know, was a part of his party
2:02:53
when he was a part of Jeremy Corbyn's party when... But he wasn't in Parliament
2:02:57
He wasn't in Parliament. Of course they're a part of the same party when he was talking about wanting to
2:03:00
well, essentially Paul and Paul. They're not part of the same party now. They're not part of the same party now
2:03:04
That was desperate, wasn't it? And also... It just didn't really work. Corbyn's position, and goodness me
2:03:08
this is why I think Kemi Baden-Lock is so wonderful, because she's put me now in a position
2:03:12
where I feel compelled to defend Jeremy Corbyn. Oh, goodness. But he's always said that hopefully the world will be so peaceful
2:03:19
that one day NATO will be disbanded. Yes, he never made active, let's disband NATO now
2:03:25
So, Burnham wasn't in Parliament at the time. Corbyn didn't say really what she said he said
2:03:29
And even if he has, there's no way of knowing whether Andy Burnham would have criticised it or not
2:03:34
because he wasn't in Parliament at the time. Sure, we just don't know. We just don't know. And then Ed Davey
2:03:38
And then Ed Davey. Being Ed Davey. And finally, though, we should point out what Andy Burnham said about welfare
2:03:42
which I think is going to get repeated again and again and again. He said, we won't cut housing benefits to fund defence
2:03:49
He has talked about wanting to get the welfare bill down. But he's trying to make a new argument today, which I thought was very interesting
2:03:54
Yeah, I did. That he's talking about how we can't, national security cannot come at the expense of social security
2:04:01
And he's trying to draw that argument of like, if these people, you know, if our country don't have houses
2:04:05
if we don't have security, we don't have safety in the places that we live, in the place that we grow up
2:04:09
then how can we sort of defend our country? And he's totally right to make that argument
2:04:14
It is going to be a very difficult one because, you know, including in the Treasury
2:04:18
people across government will always look to the growing welfare bill and say that that is where
2:04:22
we should cut he's going to have to have this argument coming up the one thing that i think
2:04:27
kemi badenok is right to raise and was right to raise at pmq today is why do we have to wait a
2:04:32
year until the until the um uh the spending review next year for andy burnham and and john healy to
2:04:38
to set out their plans for defense it's a long time to wait um andy burnham's clearly made an
2:04:43
interesting choice in his in his chancellorship and he says he said at the very top you know he
2:04:47
says this chancellor will be willing to find that money for our military. Of course, everyone knows that, but to have to wait a year to do so..
2:04:53
Don't they have lots of sums to do? Don't they have to... Yeah, you've got to make sure it all adds up, for sure
2:04:57
You've got to find that money somewhere. But the economy is looking so dreadful at the moment
2:05:01
despite what John Healy was trying to tell us earlier this week. And it's going to be really hard to square that circle
2:05:06
Would it be pedantic of me to point out that it is almost two years to the day
2:05:10
since Kemi Bader not described statutory maternity pay in this country as excessive
2:05:14
Goodness. Yes. Well, I won't tell you what I think about that. The championess of equalities and women
2:05:20
She's promoted a pregnant lady, don't you know? Well, holy moly. Whatever next
2:05:24
Natasha, thank you. Sorry, go on. I was going to comment on Ed Davey
2:05:28
I think maternity and AI security are two pretty strong subjects for Ed Davey
2:05:32
And I think if he does go on maternity units and the maternity scandal we're saying every week
2:05:36
I'm not saying he could win an election. But he could win a lot of new admoners. He could win a lot of new voters
2:05:40
And I think with Ed Davey, you know it's always coming from a place of authenticity
2:05:45
and sincerity, which you can't necessarily say about all politicians. In fact, indeed, all people
2:05:50
Here is Amelia Cox with your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC. 34 is the time
2:05:57
How many years is it since I said I was going to start a book club? And it still hasn't happened, but I do have
2:06:01
the enormous pleasure every now and then of inviting authors that I admire and
2:06:04
want you to either discover or continue to enjoy into the studio
2:06:08
And few fit that category better and more snugly than John Ronson, author of a bunch of
2:06:14
books, but probably the best known or the biggest seller would be the psychopath test. Yeah
2:06:20
The new one, The Castle, Adventures in a World of Unraveling Men. I'll begin at the beginning
2:06:25
Where did the idea come from? Well, this is a story that it crashed unannounced into my life
2:06:30
I was asleep and I woke up to a series of texts for my son. And because there was panicked swearing
2:06:36
in the text, I think I have to paraphrase, the last text read something like it's okay
2:06:42
that was terrifying, but we left and we're safe now. So then I read the other text and it turns out
2:06:49
that my son and three friends have been invited to a party. In quotes. Yeah
2:06:54
A party being held by a stranger that one of them had met a couple of days earlier on Tinder
2:06:59
Okay. Sounds great already, doesn't it? So they head off. They head off and this man's house is a giant castle
2:07:08
In quite ordinary surroundings, though. Yeah, on a street of otherwise ordinary homes
2:07:12
Modest home, modest home, unbelievably ostentatious castle. Like Disney fairy tale turrets gothic a bit of everything Too many turrets That the main thing It like a vast number of turrets So they cross the drawbridge Literally
2:07:27
Yeah. This isn't a rhetorical device. Passing the gargoyles and enter the grand banqueting hall
2:07:35
to discover that there's no party. It's a trick. Right. They've been tricked there
2:07:42
Because he was in the company of some young female. Yes. So the castle owner comes out and they say, where's the party
2:07:49
And he says, no, I've invited you here for another reason. I would like you all to take part in my reality show
2:07:56
So they said, what's the name of your reality show? He said, it's called 101 Princesses
2:08:01
I'm the king, I'm looking for my queen, and I have 101 princesses to choose from
2:08:06
But then he said to the women in Joel's party, go downstairs to my basement costume room
2:08:11
put on some princess costumes and come back upstairs for filming. So they went downstairs and put on princess costumes
2:08:20
Went back upstairs, a videographer appears. Filming begins, but they start to get the creeping sense
2:08:26
that this isn't a real reality show. Not least because the videographer had this other job
2:08:32
which was cutting up meat for the castle owner. This huge slab of meat
2:08:37
Anyway, so they get kicked out after refusing... For not playing ball. Right, yeah, for refusing to participate
2:08:42
but not a good idea to invite a journalist to send to your forbidden castle
2:08:47
No, of course not, because your antennae is now twitching violently. So I went to the castle
2:08:52
and this is how the book begins. And it is not simply the tale of this man
2:08:56
although that couldn't probably have been a book in and of itself. Well, he's threaded
2:09:01
Me trying to find out. Yes, but it is an examination of unravelling men
2:09:07
or unmoored men is a word that you use as well, and they can be coming from anywhere
2:09:11
but it's a zeitgeist. Yeah, I think most of all, well, because what I thought at the time
2:09:17
so I go to the castle, he says some unwise things to me
2:09:22
tries to get me to sign an NDA, I refuse, and then he starts sending me death threats
2:09:27
He says he has two murderers called Carlos and Brandon just out of prison for murdering someone
2:09:33
and if I ever write negatively about the castle, they'll be very upset. So I'm thinking
2:09:39
this is frightening, but he's hiding something but what so i thought okay this is a man who's trying to be hugh hefner
2:09:47
like him as you say the worst imaginable point in recent history to be you try to be hugh hefner
2:09:53
yeah unless unless you hit the creme de la creme of manosphere influencers you can't do that anymore
2:09:58
so then i thought well this is a book about men unable to do the things that they used to be able
2:10:05
to do and where will that theme take me let's pause there because that's an incredible phrase
2:10:10
isn't it? Unable to do the things that they used to be able to do. And also, no one really told
2:10:13
them that they weren't going to be able to do the things that they were always able to do until they suddenly discovered it. The most amazing statistic in the book is, and I'll paraphrase
2:10:23
but we talk a lot at the moment about NEETs, which is young people not in education, employment
2:10:27
or training. But of course, it's a middle-aged malaise as well. And you find, I think, about a million men in a... Oh, no, a lot more. In America, there's more than seven million men
2:10:36
Countless more around the world. Middle-aged men. Yeah, of all ages. Right, who just aren't doing anything
2:10:41
Yeah, they are only unemployed. They aren't even looking for work. And I thought a lot about that
2:10:46
You know, because for me, I'm sure you're the same, James, and I'm sure loads of people listening to this are the same
2:10:51
Without purpose, without work, you go dulali. Like, I can't handle... If I'm sitting on a bench trying to think of a story idea
2:11:00
10 minutes of not being able to think of a story idea, and I'm overwhelmed by this dreadful thought
2:11:05
I'm just a man sitting on a bench. And so there's all these millions and millions of men and women
2:11:13
but I'm focusing more on men in this world. And they don't know what to do. They don't know what to do. They've got no purpose
2:11:17
All the old structures and institutions are crumbling. And so some of them are unravelling
2:11:23
And they're desperately trying to find new ways to have purpose and meaning in their lives
2:11:29
And a lot of them, and this is what the book turns into, a lot of them are becoming content creators
2:11:35
Yeah, and getting quotes. Or traders, I don't know. I mean, this is something I've discovered recently
2:11:40
which I was thinking about while reading your book, is mums who are telling me that their sort of 20, 22-year-old sons
2:11:46
are sitting in rooms with big computer screens being traders but not actually making any money
2:11:51
So it's the same sort of phenomenon. Yeah, yeah, like institutions have won, personal brands
2:11:56
And I think, and that, so I kind of explore that, what happens when you chase those algorithms
2:12:01
and you chase them to some really dark places. And some people succeed, which is the ultimate tragedy
2:12:08
In a way, it's always been the case. But these kids, these younger people, younger men
2:12:12
think that they're going to be the next so-and-so or the next so-and-so. And you speak to some of the so-and-sos
2:12:16
There's the one who was presenting a relatively ordinary podcast, did something on Meghan Markle
2:12:21
It went bonkers because the hatred for Meghan Markle has been very successfully commoditized by normal media
2:12:26
on both sides of the Atlantic. And so this bloke then went on to make 70 more films about Meghan Markle
2:12:31
who he'd never previously had an opinion about at all. Absolutely. And he is such a kind of, I think, product of our times
2:12:37
He went from making podcasts called The BBC's First Blind Presenter and Her Lovely Dog
2:12:45
which got 69 views, to Wokeness is the Most Evil Thing You Can Do
2:12:50
which got like half a million views. I'm obviously fascinated by this for personal and professional reasons
2:12:55
How many of them mean it? Well, so he said to me
2:12:59
and the worst thing of all is I don't even mean it. Wow. So he clarified he is broadly anti-woke
2:13:06
Sure. But what he doesn't... Aren't we all? But what he doesn't mean is the titles
2:13:16
the genetic weakness of wokeness, civil war is coming, many of us will die
2:13:22
Then he has the most extreme culture warriors on and tells them how brilliant they are
2:13:26
and that's the stuff he doesn't mean. Because you identify something called..
2:13:29
Is it new season syndrome? or you have to have this neck, you have to keep going further
2:13:34
So when you watch the decline of some people who everyone can fill in whichever gap they want
2:13:38
with their favourite person who's gone on a very public descent into ever more insane positions
2:13:44
because you've got to build on last week's insane position by finding an even more insane one
2:13:49
Yeah, and it's creating, I think, a world and a country of just, you know
2:13:55
panicked, lost, adrift rage of people just don't knowing, like, they just don't know what's going on anymore
2:14:04
so they're sort of reaching for rage. Panic, loss, adrift, rage. Yeah
2:14:09
Which kind of brings us to Graham Linehan, doesn't it? And you write, I think, very kindly about your former friend
2:14:15
who, two thoughts occur to me. The first is, does anybody really follow
2:14:20
Graham Linehan's career arc off Twitter? And the second thing is, he won't think you've been very kind to him
2:14:28
but everybody else will. Yeah, no, it's true. Both of those things too. So, Kai, I mean, given the fact that he's
2:14:34
tweeted about me like thousands of times in the last eight years just you know I told him I thought he was actually like a bully and the gates of hell opened But yeah I noticed that So since Graham discovered that he in my book as you can imagine he not thrilled
2:14:49
even though I think the book is a very, you know, that chapter of him in the book is, you know, reasoned and thoughtful and so on
2:14:59
I heard, I don't know if this is true, but I read that in the last couple of weeks on Twitter
2:15:05
I've had quarter of a million tweets directed at me 250,000 tweets and imagine if that happened
2:15:14
10 years ago 10 years ago it would have been destroying of somebody now it just doesn't
2:15:20
matter it doesn't matter we're living in such siloed worlds that you delete the app off your
2:15:26
phone and it just dissolves quarter of a million yells in my direction if that figure is true
2:15:31
and it just dissolves. Which is that good and bad. In my public shaming box
2:15:35
even publicly shamed, one of my shamees, Max Mosley, said to me, it's a pact
2:15:42
And if a shamee steps out of the pact by refusing to feel ashamed
2:15:47
then the whole thing crumbles. They don't know what to do. Yeah. It's happening now with Twitter
2:15:50
It's happening. People just don't... It's like the old tree falls in the wood thing, isn't it
2:15:55
But they carry on shouting at the tree. Because in their bubble, in their silo
2:16:00
it means a lot. But what they don't realise is outside of the silo, it just dissolves into nothingness
2:16:05
And these are the panicking lost, the receptacles of panic lost adrift rage
2:16:12
although, of course, they don't recognise that because everybody else around them is in a similar... Yeah
2:16:16
On social media, the disinhibited man is the chapter that we're talking about
2:16:20
Just quickly run through what disinhibited means in this context and why it's a much broader label
2:16:26
than one man or one person. Well, I talk, you know, And so even publicly ashamed, I talk about how people started, because of our overuse of shame as a weapon, people became unashamed
2:16:38
I equate it to hospital superbugs, sanitized and sanitized until they become impervious to treatment
2:16:45
And what I've noticed in the last couple of years, you know, because of Trump, and I think partly because of our overuse of shame as a weapon
2:16:53
and also partly because of the collapse of the old structures and institutions
2:16:59
People have mutated from unashamedness to disinhibition. I say of Graham, if anybody's been following Graham's trajectory
2:17:07
I think they'll probably know what I mean. It's like he's kind of, and he's one of huge numbers of people
2:17:12
who've like kind of ripped off their faces and allowed their ids to run wild
2:17:18
Just nothing matters anymore. And I kind of equate it to if you feel like you're not part
2:17:23
if you feel like society isn't yours anymore, you don't recognise yourself as part of society anymore
2:17:30
then anything goes. Anything goes. And when you cross that tipping point
2:17:37
it's, I mean, for me, it's extraordinary that we're now creating a whole
2:17:41
well, a whole mass of people are behaving in these completely disinhibited ways
2:17:46
where nothing matters anymore. Just blow it all out, all the rage, all the disinhibition
2:17:52
And getting commoditized as well. Yeah. Thanks to the algorithms and the owner of the platform
2:17:59
Yeah, and some of the people who are putting those people on their podcasts
2:18:02
sell me that, you know what, I don't even mean it. It's incredible, and it's brilliant
2:18:07
And it's pure John Ronson, isn't it, really? As you say, the themes that you've explored in your previous books
2:18:11
are never far from the surface of this one. Well, sometimes they're quite far from the surface
2:18:16
but they're never entirely absent. No. Do you offer any hope? Is there any optimism
2:18:21
I don't have very much hope in the castle, but something happened quite recently
2:18:25
that gives me a little bit of hope, if you would like to hear it. Of course. Well, I was just at the cage fight at the White House
2:18:30
Of course you were. I was on the South Lawn. I was on the undercard
2:18:36
I was blood-spattered close to the action. Good Lord. And I was talking to a fighter called Sean O'Malley
2:18:43
who's a bit of a UFC heartthrob. Always boasts about his one-sided open marriage
2:18:47
He's allowed to have sex with other women, but his wife, Dania, can't have sex with other men
2:18:53
And he would explain on podcasts, he'd say, well, Andrew Tate puts it very well, I have status, I have status
2:19:00
So I said to him, it was just a few weeks ago, I said, you've got an open marriage, surely that doesn't work
2:19:07
And he looked sort of sad and said, well, it doesn't work anymore
2:19:11
His wife, Dania, has refused to allow him to have sex with other women anymore
2:19:17
and he looks so baffled by this change in his fortunes. And so maybe..
2:19:22
Maybe there's a way back. Maybe, yeah, maybe Daniel is all of our futures. You're on tour as well
2:19:26
You are going to be interviewed on stage. No, no, I'm doing it all yourself
2:19:30
Yeah, basically I took... Oh, there we go. I was going to complain about not being asked. No, I took all of these video and audio clips
2:19:36
So I'm bringing the castle to life as a kind of live. Oh, brilliant. Oh, wow. Oh, that'll be amazing
2:19:40
You can find out more about that at Fain. Yes. The website Fain. Or at your own website
2:19:45
Both. JohnRonson.com. I'm at Brighton tonight, York in a couple of days
2:19:49
Shrewsbury seems to be under... Okay, we need to sell some tickets in Shrewsbury. Yeah
2:19:55
Shrewsburyans. The people of Shrewsburyans let me down very badly. Whatever you're called, get yourself down to that
2:19:59
So, The Castle by John Ronson. Look it up online, buy the book, and go and see him doing it in person
2:20:05
in glorious technical. John, always a pleasure. Congratulations, it's another absolute smash
2:20:10
See you soon. James, it was a delight as always. Probably not at the wrestling. Up next, the First Minister of Wales
2:20:16
James O'Brien on LBC. 51 is the time you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
2:20:24
Renat Yorworth is the First Minister of Wales, has been since May of this year
2:20:29
former broadcaster, of course, and I've just discovered a childhood friend of Alan Jones
2:20:33
who is spinning the wheels of steel in the neighbouring studio. We haven't got long
2:20:39
so I'm fascinated by what you think about what Andy Burnham has had to say about devolution in particular
2:20:45
because it should be Plaid Cymru's music to your ears, shouldn't it
2:20:50
But of course, the substance is going to be what matters most. Exactly. I take real positives out of what Andy Burnham's background is
2:20:58
and some of the things that he's been saying, and I've spoken with him about this. He clearly understands why it's important to get devolution right
2:21:05
and he understands devolution from a Manchester perspective. And my job, and I think he understands this
2:21:12
this is for him to understand what it is that devolution means
2:21:16
in Wales and what changes we need to devolution in Wales in order
2:21:20
for it to work better on powers, on funding and so on. And I want
2:21:24
to have that positive conversation. He's made it clear to me he wants to have it too and he's
2:21:28
looked me in the eye and said I'm not going to bypass the Senedd or Welsh Government. Let's work
2:21:32
together. I want to work in that constructive way. It's early days but I'm quite
2:21:36
sure we can have a good relationship. What's the ultimate goal for Plaid? I mean everybody
2:21:40
knows what the SNP wants. Is Plade's ultimate goal the same? Well, I come from the fundamental viewpoint
2:21:47
that the normal state of play for any nation is to be an independent nation, but then you can have a philosophical argument
2:21:52
about what independent means, and it's certainly not isolationist. So when I talk about the kind of empowerment
2:21:58
that I want for Wales, it within Europe it within a redesigned Britain because we got so much in common friends you know our closest allies will always be our friends and colleagues within these islands So that the kind of way I look at it I see what I want to do as building up Wales
2:22:16
building up Wales on health and education and prosperity with the powers that we have now
2:22:20
and then seeking, okay, where else can we go with this? And taking the people of Wales with us
2:22:25
becoming more and more confident, and you know what, the more we're able to devise our own future
2:22:30
surely the better it is. I'm not sure you answered my question, though, Ryn
2:22:35
Well, the choice is in the hands of the people of Wales. What I said was, I believe that the normal state of play
2:22:40
is to be an independent nation, so that's what I believe. I can't impose independence on Wales
2:22:44
That's got to come from within. There'll be a lot of people who vote for you
2:22:48
who have applied in recent years, who aren't necessarily driven by independence. 100%
2:22:53
The key thing to me is that they, we haven't been convinced about this independence thing
2:22:57
Maybe they don't quite understand what independence is. Maybe they think it is isolation. I'm not sure I do
2:23:02
Right? And I think even within plight, you'll have 50 or 101 even definitions of what independence is
2:23:09
Ultimately, it's about empowering ourselves. It's about how we work with others
2:23:15
What levers we want in our own hands, where we're willing to share powers with others in order to make it work
2:23:20
And that brings us back to why you're currently quite optimistic about Andy Burnham's ability to grasp the bigger picture
2:23:26
in the context of devolution and stuff. not been in the job long I sense you're enjoying it it's a massive honor isn't it you know I am
2:23:35
leader of my country I've been entrusted by the people of Wales to lead a government minority
2:23:40
government so you know it's not a matter of yeah we do what we want it's a matter of working and
2:23:44
cooperation with with others and that's really really important I believe in the plurality of
2:23:48
views and making sure that you know people's views people feel that politics represents them
2:23:54
So that's good. But I genuinely feel a sense of goodwill behind what our new government is trying to do
2:24:03
I think people get that we want to do this for the right reasons, that we believe in Wales, that we want to do the right thing for Wales
2:24:08
And I'm not confusing goodwill with political support, which is a different thing, but one can lead to the other
2:24:15
And I think we've reached a point, high points in terms of historic support for Plaid Cymru, but it's not the end of it
2:24:22
The alliance keeps on being built, I believe. You probably weren't, I mean, since you became leader in 2023
2:24:30
the trajectory of the party has been, probably even by your expectations, extraordinary
2:24:36
My view always has been that you try to change the political weather
2:24:41
you try to set the narrative, and you can do that to a certain extent. But what you also need to do is get your own narrative in order
2:24:49
get your own house in order. So when things around you change, that people look to you
2:24:56
actually these guys over here, they seem to be able to respond well to what's happening in the world
2:25:00
So for example, the growth in the global phenomena of the growth in the political right
2:25:06
People could see that Plaid really wanted to take this on and had a different viewpoint
2:25:12
The disillusion in Labour, in government, and people looking for an alternative
2:25:18
people who had a firmer vision of what we should do. We were fit. We were ready
2:25:23
People said, OK, now's the time. We're going to trust Plaid Cumberland and give them a go. You mentioned that
2:25:27
And in the last couple of days, the focus of these people has turned to Wales on social media
2:25:33
that we were talking to John Ronson about with Rupert Lowe and Stephen Yaxley-Lennon
2:25:38
and the reform leader in Wales, Dan Thomas. Does he live in Wales yet
2:25:43
We were trying to keep... Well, anyway, it's not for you to say. I'll get Henry Riley back on the case. All posting a picture of a flag flying from the turrets of Cardiff
2:25:50
Castle that came from 2024. A Pakistani flag because it was Independence Day
2:25:56
I mean, it's both serious and ridiculous at the same time, this kind of politics. Absolutely right, and the obsession with flags
2:26:02
you know, and one of the first things that their finance spokesperson said in the Senate was, let's tear down the Ukraine flag, and it's all about
2:26:08
let's only have such and such flag here and there. That's not what we're
2:26:12
trying to do, is it? And on top of that, with that particular issue
2:26:16
about the Pakistani flag being flown on Independence Day. We have very proud Pakistani communities in Wales and the rest of the UK
2:26:25
Why wouldn't we want to celebrate our diversity in that kind of way? And it's using disinformation
2:26:29
That's the world we're in. I was listening to your conversation a few minutes ago
2:26:34
You know, we have to face up to that and say, no, no, no, sorry, we're not going to
2:26:39
make do with that kind of simplistic view of the world trying to divide people
2:26:46
Or appease. David's not very happy. He's just written, I love you
2:26:50
James, but this feels rushed. If I was Welsh, I'd be offended and upset. So you're going to have
2:26:54
to come back and come on my podcast next time you're in London, if you can. I would be delighted
2:26:57
to, James. I'd like to find out more about the journey from, not for any particular reason, but the journalist
2:27:02
from radio presenter to leader of a nation. Sounds quite interesting to me. You fancy it, do you, James
2:27:08
That's ridiculous. But, I mean, bad news today on the education front, with England
2:27:13
outperforming Wales by some distance. Yeah, again, you know, these are the PISA results. It's one
2:27:19
measure, it's only one measure. These are tests that were taken, of course
2:27:23
under the last administration. I think it's probably fair to make that clear. But what we do
2:27:27
is, okay, this is what we have inherited. What do we build
2:27:32
Where do we go from here? I fundamentally believe across the board, whether it's health, whether it's
2:27:35
on transport, whether it's in our national confidence, this is not as good as
2:27:39
things can get for Wales. And it's certainly clear on education. We used to have a really proud
2:27:43
education track record. One of the first generally literate populations in the world
2:27:49
and that slip is something that I'm not willing to just earn a blind eye to
2:27:54
and we made it one of our core promises in this election to have a drive on numeracy, literacy, raise education standards
2:28:01
working with teachers, with parents, with pupils because we can't just settle for this
2:28:07
It's a pleasure, an absolute pleasure. There's an air, I don't know whether you agree
2:28:13
that there's an air of new leaders arriving in post, in power
2:28:16
who actually seem to think that it is possible to do things differently
2:28:21
I mean, hope has been one of those words that's been used a lot in Wales
2:28:25
You've gone there. And it's... But it's all about that, isn't it
2:28:29
Yes. This business of, okay, if things aren't working too well now, when most people would look across the board and say
2:28:35
you know what, we need to do better than this. Well, we're there to see, okay, roll up sleeves
2:28:40
Let's see if we can do it. Pleasure to meet you. You too. Do you prefer being on that side of the microphone or this side of the microphone
2:28:46
I find it creatively satisfying being on this side, crafting arguments, bringing people with me
2:28:51
but I dearly loved being your side too. There we go. Politicians answer
2:28:56
We craft arguments, don't we? No, never. No, we don't. No, we do. No, we don't
2:29:00
I'm going to for the next three hours. Renap your word, thank you. First Minister of Wales, as I say, since May of this year
2:29:06
If you missed any of today's show, you can listen back on our free Global Player app or the LBC app
2:29:10
where you can also stay up to date with all the latest news videos and opinions. Podcasts galore
2:29:14
download the app actually, the LBC app or the Global Player from your app store now. Tom Sawbricht
2:29:20
will be with you at four but now it's time for the argument
#news