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Emily Maitlis and Aggie Chambre join Shelagh Fogarty to discuss Keir Starmer's future as PM ahead of the local elections. According to the Telegraph, the Prime Minister has been kept away from Labour's local election campaign trail because he is viewed as 'toxic' The Labour leader has played a smaller part in the party's campaign trail, having attended just 11 events around the UK. However, on Monday Starmer appeared at a gathering of European leaders in the Armenian capital Yerevan. He used the trip to continue his push for closer ties with the bloc on defence, security and the economy, and to make the case for his reset with Brussels to UK voters ahead of local elections this week. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #shelaghfogarty #emilymaitlis #aggiechambre #keirstarmer #europe #ukpolitics #election #debate #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
This theory that he's being hidden away, kept away from the campaign trail, is he
0:05
I think he's done something quite sensible, actually, because he knows that he plays much better on the world stage
0:12
He sort of gets plaudits for being, you know, listened to by the world leaders
0:17
And if you look at where he spent the weekend in Armenia, in Yerevan, at the EPC, the European Political Conference
0:25
where he is flanked by Carney and by Macron and by Mertz
0:29
And he started to look like, you know, he's in the kind of the big boys club, as it were
0:35
Trump isn't there. It isn't NATO, but it is the kind of the very visible sort of alternative to NATO
0:43
People who are serious about Ukraine, who are serious about Russia. It's EU plus essentially
0:48
It's EU. I mean, I always think when Mark Carney pops up, it's a bit like Australia in the Eurovision
0:53
Do you know what I mean? And he's sort of like, you shouldn't really be there, but you're welcome
0:57
And he's also talking about realignment with Europe, with the single market
1:03
which, frankly, if you are looking at our finances now and our economy now
1:08
and you're saying we are up what's-it creek because of the Iran war
1:12
and because we are seeing what's happening to the price of oil, then the quicker you can start working out how to limit the downside
1:19
yeah, then that's kind of right. So I wonder if it's serving a dual purpose that he gets to look prime ministerial on a pretty, you know, key lot of policies on the world stage
1:32
Without being shouted at on the local track. Yeah, and he doesn't have to... And he would be in some places, wouldn't he? Probably
1:37
Well, I think that's what we do now. I think we shout at people in high office, don't we
1:42
I mean, it's kind of, it's grim, but it's, I don't envy any of them who have to go and
1:47
knock on doors at the moment, step outside and sort of, you know, the whole world is feeling
1:52
really vulnerable at the moment because of something that's going on, you know, 7,000
1:58
miles away anyway, that's affecting all of us. So everyone's feeling terrible. And of course
2:02
if somebody turns up and says, how can I make your life better? You tell them. And I was really struck last week by what Sir John Major said about changing leaders and changing
2:11
prime ministers too often and it's coming through on our calls today that there isn't I mean again
2:16
it's not scientific poll but there doesn't seem to be an appetite coming through on our calls even
2:22
though plenty of people call to complain about the Labour Party and the Labour and the Labour government but there isn't an appetite for him being removed. Do you know what I think? I think
2:29
there's something about these words like a putsch or a coup they sound like they're very fast and
2:36
very efficient and very violent and they just sort of behead somebody and moves on it bam
2:40
and actually we've seen that that doesn't actually happen very often and it doesn't work
2:45
very often and i mean if you go back a few months to when anasawa the scottish labour leader stood up
2:54
and thought they were going to see the dominoes tumble then you know he thought he would get
2:58
support from the cabinet from wales from other prominent labour figures and there was this real
3:05
time sort of vacuum wasn't there where we were all watching and seeing who's going to support
3:08
Quite the opposite came. Then there was clearly a coordinated set of posts from the Cabinet
3:14
The Welsh leader. I mean, look, the thing that's helping Starmer, I think, is that no one really knows what the alternative to Starmer is, right
3:25
And I think the more people look at it, the more people think this might be the craziest thing we do, right
3:32
Whether it's as a party or as a Cabinet or as a country. You can't just sit there kind of going, oh, whatever comes next is going to be better
3:39
Because, you know, the Labour Party has looked at those around Starmer and it doesn't seem like any of those are playing better with the public than the person they've got
3:55
except for the one guy, you know, in Manchester, who technically can't become PM
4:01
without a lot of, you know, shuffling of the parliamentary deck chairs
4:07
And he is, he being Andy Burnham, he's pushed back on those reports from last week, hasn't he
4:11
about people moving aside for him. Even if three or four MPs said, we'll move aside for you
4:17
there's still a question of selection, there's still a question of the NEC, and then there's a question of winning it
4:21
It all takes longer than you think. And actually, where are we now
4:25
we are coming up to the May elections on Thursday. We won't fully digest the results probably till Sunday
4:32
We've then got two more weeks and then there's another parliamentary recess, right
4:37
You're going into the King's speech and you've got the sort of half-term parliamentary research
4:42
parliamentary recess, and then you're sort of heading into summer. So I mean I not saying it won happen but in a funny way I think time is on Keir Starmer side at the moment because on the international stage things are getting worse And there a lot going on here It needs grip
5:00
Right. You know, when you think of the situation on anti-Semitism, I mean, he's clearly held that summit today
5:04
Yeah. There's a lot going on here beyond that, as well as general policy. So, yeah, we'll see. We'll see. Thank you, Emily. Good to have you on the programme, as ever
5:10
There's a report in The Telegraph today that Sir Keir Starmer has been kept away from local election campaign trails
5:18
because he is seen as toxic. We do, of course, know that his personal polling rating
5:26
has been extremely bad for quite some time. And we know that there is huge dissatisfaction among his party
5:34
among the parliamentary party. And a lot of that, I think, is as a result of Labour MPs
5:40
going back to their constituencies and having conversations, campaigning on the doorstep and hearing very..
5:47
speaking to very disillusioned voters. And so those two things put together, I think
5:54
is where The Telegraph has got to. And they have found, they have done some ysis
5:58
that finds that exactly to your point of he seems like he has been absent, he has only done, according to that paper
6:04
11 election campaign visits in the past two months. They have also gathered data on Nigel Farage
6:12
the Reform UK leader, who's recorded 71 visits, kemi badenok 41 visits and uh us at lbc uh have uh spoken to the liberal democrats who say they
6:22
have done 32 visits we've asked the greens but they have not come back to us yet and just in
6:27
case people are thinking oh what do you mean visits visits where this is the all-important
6:31
glad handing showing your face urging people to come out and vote telling them why they should
6:37
vote for you exactly that and if the leader does it it should be a bit of stardust a bit of pizzazz
6:43
Yes, exactly that. So sort of a stump speech and going down to the local cricket club in any given area
6:49
Pulling a pint, holding a baby. Oh, you know the drill, Sheila. Exactly that, exactly that
6:55
And this story is about the fact that he has done very, very few
7:00
I should, of course, say that, of course, as you pointed out at the beginning..
7:03
He's the Prime Minister. He's the Prime Minister. You know, he has been doing other things
7:08
And Labour source told the paper that at a time when the country is facing a war on two fronts
7:12
He's showing the calm, level-headed leadership our country needs and talked about the fact that the government is on the side of working people
7:21
Eleven visits, though, does seem an awfully small amount when these elections, as we've talked about before on your show, Sheila, are absolutely critical
7:30
And not just critical for the Labour Party, but critical for really his survival
7:35
I mean, if they are as bad as some pollsters predict, as some people in the Labour Party worry, they talk about a bloodbath, then this could very well spell the end of his premiership, not necessarily in the days following, but potentially
7:51
But maybe there'll be a date set or maybe it will be in the months following
7:56
But these are crucial elections. So the fact that he has only been out on about 11 times, I mean, the story seems to be in this particular paper that actually it might not help if he was out on about kissing those babies and pulling those pints
8:08
But I suppose that's up to whoever he was meeting. And people do enjoy the, the voters, I mean, do enjoy the cut and thrust of that, don't they
8:18
Of somebody coming and, you know, in a sense, not daring, I think with him it might be daring, but daring to face them or just saying, look, here I am
8:27
ask me anything. I'll tell you what my plans are, but fire away. And that openness, you've got to be
8:32
a really sort of muscular politician to cope with that, haven't you? Indeed, it's obviously a very
8:36
very difficult skill being a politician, especially in the day and age we live in. But I think you're
8:42
right, you can, of course, change minds if you meet someone face to face. And lots of people do
8:48
say about Keir Starmer, you know, if you speak to him one on one, you like him a lot more, you get a
8:55
different picture he's much more warm oh he can chat away about football and that kind of thing
8:59
i mean people often say that you present a different picture as a politician um on the tv
9:04
as you do uh on a campaign visit or something like that um but it is a skill and it can be
9:09
difficult and you know campaign visits can also go wrong you can be confronted um and filmed by
9:16
someone who doesn't like your politics gordon brown gillian duffy oh gosh yes challenge on the
9:21
hospital doorstep about cancer treatment on Tony Blair, eggs being thrown at you, John Prescott
9:27
It all comes to mind. Exactly, there's countless examples. But also, as you say, as a politician
9:33
you should enjoy that. You should be ready to face those difficult questions
9:37
You should be ready to take on the argument and make the argument And I think you know that is something that maybe he hasn been doing as much if he has just indeed as the Telegraph reports taken part in 11 election campaign visits in the past two months
9:52
And he can, Keir Starmer can be flexible. Do you remember when he had that purple stuff thrown over him at the very beginning of his conference speech? It was glitter or something, wasn't it
10:00
It was glitter, yes. And he just, obviously there was a momentary shock, naturally, because you have to wonder if it's something more serious
10:05
jacket came off shouldn't have been wearing it the first place jacket came off sleeves rolled up
10:10
let's get on with it you know yes and he i thought he handled that very well he handled it brilliantly
10:16
and there was a long a very long serving uh labor party official who sort of went up to him i'm not
10:21
sure exactly what she said but i can picture it in my mind and sort of basically took his jacket
10:26
and get it off and encourage him and it would be and it would be very shocking and and you know
10:31
the fact that someone was able to get close enough to him to put that glitter over him which I think
10:36
he said in interviews the next day as well he was sort of still trying to scrub glitter out of his
10:41
hair but it of course was a security breach as well so you can understand the shock but as you
10:45
say him the image of him there standing rolling up his sleeves and then just getting on with his
10:51
conference speech and he does have a history with conference speeches too of being heckled and and
10:56
having a pre-prepared response after being heckled and managing it quite well. But also he has
11:04
numerous examples of not being the most nimble politician. I mean, we see it in Prime Minister's
11:09
questions week after week, as I would say, Kemi Bade, not the Conservative Party leader
11:13
has, as she would say, improved in her performance and has managed to pack a few
11:21
punches from across the dispatch box. And so, you know, I think there are parts of being a
11:26
politician that he is not as skilled at. But as you say, there have been examples where he really
11:30
has managed to overcome difficult situations like that. And this isn't just about the feels
11:36
is it? This is also about policy, U-turns, a sense that people aren't getting where they need to
11:42
under this Labour government. They want to see change more quickly. You look at one of his
11:47
possible competitors, you know, or, you know, who might want to take the job from him
11:52
West Streeting, he's obviously better at saying, look, this is what I have achieved. This is what
11:58
I have done. And he always mentions the NHS staff are doing it with them. He doesn't take all the
12:03
glory. He's realistic, but he sets forward what he's done. He's a better communicator, essentially
12:10
But it isn't just about the fields, is it? It has to be about what Labour's record has been so far
12:16
almost two years in. And it has been so mixed and so disappointing to so many people, not to
12:21
everybody it's important to say but but to so many people i think that's exactly right and i think
12:25
that's what lots of labor mps tell me that they are hearing on the doorstep um where people are
12:31
angry about yes kia starmer a lot of anger actually about kia starmer and people saying
12:37
i just don't like him people i am told have a sort of lots of people not all people as you
12:44
rightly point out just don't warm to him just don't warm to him as a person and that's the
12:48
personality stuff and that is difficult to overcome um but then there's also the policy
12:54
substance the substance the u-turns you know people still being cross voters still being cross
12:59
about um winter fuel one of the first decisions um that labor made when they came into government
13:04
and being disappointed with other decisions uh that the labor government has made and not noticing
13:09
uh what labor wants them to notice which is they say things are improving they talk about the green
13:16
shoots of recovery and effectively I think what Labour wants is more time and the public to be
13:23
more understanding that they need more time to turn things around as they would say but people
13:28
are impatient for change and I think they recognise that and it's just a question of really what
13:33
happens in the next week when we have these crucial set of elections how badly Labour do I mean
13:39
there's there's talk of you know it would be a terrible night for them ysis has said if they
13:44
lose 2,000 seats it'll be a bad night if they lose 1,500 seats it would be an okay night for them
13:51
if they lose a thousand seats now it's just extraordinary to talk about Labour losing
13:55
a thousand seats and that being an okay night tell us where tell us where these elections are taking place so that people know where this is because they're local and they're devolved
14:02
governments exactly yes so so uh lots of places across uh England are going to have local elections
14:07
and then we've got elections in Wales where of course Labour has been in charge um well and just
14:14
It's historically very strong, electoral. Historically extremely strong in Wales. And that, all the polling suggests that Labour is going to lose on Thursday night in Wales
14:25
To Plaid or to...? Well, lots of polls suggesting it would be Plaid Cymru, then reform and then Labour
14:34
So an extraordinary night if that happens for Labour And then in Scotland there were genuine hopes Not that long ago
14:44
Not that long ago. I mean, even I would say at the start of this year that maybe if something in Westminster changed
14:49
then maybe this could be turned around, but that Labour could win Scotland
14:54
That now, I think, looks impossible. Impossible, possibly too strong. You never know what will happen on the night
15:00
Less likely, yeah. But polls are suggesting that's extremely unlikely. You don't ever know, and nor should we assume how voters are going to vote
15:06
That would be as ill-mannered as a politician assuming how they're going to vote
15:10
I mean, the polls are giving us some indications. But whenever I talk about whether Keir Starmer is the problem for the Labour Party
15:18
and I don't think he's the only problem for the Labour Party in government. It needs to book up its ideas on a number of fronts, doesn't it
15:24
But the leadership obviously matters. But I inevitably get plenty of calls from people who seem to have the same feelings about this
15:32
as Sir John Major, former Prime Minister, who said just the other day
15:36
look, if you think chopping and changing Prime Ministers every year or year and a half or two years
15:41
is the answer to Britain's problems, look harder, it isn't. That was essentially what he was saying
15:46
And he's right, he's right. It is not the answer. It's an answer to something
15:50
but it's not the answer to this nation's problems. And I think that's really interesting the way you phrase that
15:54
because I think lots of people I've spoken to say, what's the question? What's the question that we're trying to answer
15:59
And they don't have the answer to what the question is, actually going to be. There's a lot of anger, there's a lot of frustration, but what that
16:06
actually should equate to on Friday, on Saturday, on Sunday, you could ask 10 people and get 10
16:11
different answers within the Labour Party. And that's problematic because of what might happen
16:16
and what might happen, lots of people think, without a plan. I remember speaking to a Labour
16:21
senior Labour figure early on, who said to me, the best thing that Sir Keir Starmer early on
16:26
after they won the election, the best thing that Sir Keir Starmer can do over the next five years
16:31
is just remain Prime Minister for five years because we have had so much chop, so much change
16:37
For three more years at least. For three more years. Well, this was at the beginning
16:41
At the beginning. But basically saying we need to sort of prove to the country
16:45
that we can still... Be stable. Not just as the Labour Party, but as House of Commons
16:51
that there is, as a country, that it is possible to have a stable government for five years
16:58
Well, this is the age of the short attention span. Maybe that's part of it. I think it may well be
17:03
And just finally, that Telegraph article that you alluded to, a week ago, it reported in its own article that a week ago
17:10
it reported that West Streeting had recruited more than 81 MPs. That's the minimum required to trigger a challenge
17:17
And that they are, I mean, it's clear he's contemplating what to do next, but he's not the only one
17:21
But he's being urged by some supporters to move as quickly as Friday
17:27
immediately after that. Friday will be so interesting, won't it? Clearly, it will be fascinating
17:32
But it'll be so interesting for our country, actually, not just for Labour Party, because the stakes will be very high at that point
17:39
once all those results are in, or once the general outcome is obvious
17:42
Yeah, it feels like we're at sort of fever pitch of briefings and counter-briefings
17:48
of all the different leadership contenders. But yes, as you say, Wes treating the health secretary
17:53
he is reported to have over 80 MPs. I think so is Angela Rayner
17:58
But they have both, Angela Rayner, of course, the former Deputy Prime Minister. Who's been out and about canvassing a lot
18:02
Who's been out and about, yes, indeed. She's a natural at that
18:07
She is a natural indeed. I think it's interesting because her and Keir Starmer in many ways
18:12
were a brilliant duo when she was deputy leader and he was leader
18:17
But there is also briefing around that neither of them want to move first
18:21
and want to trigger a challenge straight after May. So maybe if one did, the other would
18:26
Angela Rayner, of course, still hasn't sorted her tax affairs. There's some suggestion she wouldn't want to move
18:30
And also Labour MPs don't want her to move until that was finalised
18:35
And then, of course, there's Andy Burnham, who it seems the polling and MPs seem to be coalescing around at this moment
18:43
But they all, honestly, Sheila, they all change their minds an awful lot of the time and very quickly and then don't acknowledge that they had a different opinion the week before
18:50
But Andy Burnham doesn't have a seat. He hasn't been selected. He hasn't been selected
18:54
There isn't a seat free at the moment. There's some talk that the National Executive Committee, who, of course, blocked him back in February, that maybe they would now let him in
19:03
Maybe they're less loyal to Starmer now. But I've spoken to people on the NEC who says that's not the case
19:09
So there's an awful lot going on. And I think things could move extremely quickly in the next few days following the elections
19:16
Could be extremely frenetic. But also there might be some people just say to me, you know, there's going to be a lot of sound and fury
19:23
And then ultimately, maybe nothing will happen. The Prime Minister will go to another foreign summit and life will be back to normal
19:29
We will see. We just don't know
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