Up next in 10
Mayor of Manchester, and potential labour candidate in the Makerfield by-election, Andy Burnham made a major speech today where he said the UK 'has been on the wrong path for the past 40 years'. Shelagh Fogarty hears from callers about the current situation Burnham finds himself in and what could be in store for the people of Makerfield. 00:01 | William in Edinburgh appreciates Burnham focusing on local council issues, like potholes, but doesn't like how he thinks he's changing stances on other topics, like Brexit. 03:01 | Joseph from Swindon is wondering where Burnham will be getting the money from to fund his pledges. 05:50 | Anne from Denton gives her insight on Burnham, as well as her personal experience of the recent by-election in Gorton and Denton. 08:24 | Trevor from Upminster thinks that Burnham is creating a bigger divide between the north and south of England: 'everyone thinks the streets of London are paved with gold - they're not!' 16:27 | Steve from Birmingham has decades of experience inside the Labour Party and thinks that Burnham's speech today is a step in the direction of how the thinks the party want to represent themselves. 19:37 | Graham from Newark is pro-Burnham, and Shelagh calls him 'the perfect constituent' on his election beliefs! Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #ShelaghFogarty #Labour #AndyBurnham #UKNews #UKPolitics #Politics #KeirStarmer #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Listening to that speech, yeah, it was inspiring in some areas
0:04
I mean, I do appreciate all the issues that he talks about, like potholes and things like that
0:08
and the industrial days with Thatcherism and things like that. However, though, he seems to be doing what Keir Starmer was doing, maybe
0:16
I mean, you may correct me if I'm wrong, but he seems to be changing his stance on the EU situation once again
0:21
It's come up again because he's changed his stance on what he originally said. He said he was in favour of sorting that problem out
0:26
But however, he said he wants to make it up. He doesn't want to talk about it because it's a divisive debate
0:31
Well, it still is divisive. I mean, it's more divisive being out than sorting out that problem
0:36
even though it's not really an art gift to go back in. Obviously, it would require an application
0:41
but I still seem to think it's a problem we're tiptoeing around that's made this country more ungovernable than it's ever been
0:47
But the problem is that in large parts of the north, not all of it, but in large parts of the north
0:53
especially in towns like Makerfield and those kinds of areas, you know the sort of forgive me for the word but the kind of satellite towns around
1:01
big conurbations like manchester newcastle liverpool satellite towns yeah you know what i mean the kind
1:07
of smaller satellite towns yeah um it's not a real term it's just my phrase sorry it's not maybe it's
1:14
not very good um but he is saying isn't he that right those voters in huge numbers and again
1:23
recently in um the local elections still brexit supporting voting reform right and he's saying
1:31
if i weighed in to challenge essentially andy bernam is saying if i weighed in to make a field
1:36
to challenge reform and say should we join the eu what's the point of that they've already given
1:42
you their verdict on that and they are the voter they are king well i suppose so yes well he came
1:48
Well, in that case, it is... It's a political reality. It is slightly unclear, then, in saying that
1:53
because basically it's not something that's... It may not be something that's physically possible anyway
1:57
but the relationship we have still does need to be sorted out to some degree
2:01
Which he did say. Which he did say. He said, I support government policy on getting closer to Europe
2:05
but I don't think a conversation about rejoining is what we need now
2:09
And I agree with him. I don't think it is either. Well, maybe it's slightly ambiguous then for others
2:15
because I suppose, yeah, to me it did sound ambiguous because before that, because prior to this campaign
2:21
when he was being blocked, which I don't think was very good, he was actually saying that he was saying the opposite
2:26
and that's one of the reasons why I'm like, kind of, what, make your mind up
2:30
Did you find him likeable? Yes, I did find him likeable. Do you find Keir Starmer likeable
2:38
Yes and no, but I'm very, I never voted Labour, of course, so I'm still quite indecisive about what I think of him
2:44
I mean, Keir Starmer maybe doesn't sound quite as inspirational as Andy Burnham
2:49
but he's not. But I liked him because he wasn't Boris Johnson
2:53
and he's certainly not Nigel Farage. Well, quite a few people didn't find his speech inspirational today
2:58
but a good few did, but plenty texting in today who didn't. Andy just came back from the moon
3:03
I've been hearing politicians talking about the same thing with the not, from David Cameron, go back
3:08
The plans they had for the not Boris Johnson, the same speech he gave, and they couldn't deliver
3:12
And the reason why they can't deliver, We've been borrowing. How much money we borrowed last year? 300 billion or more
3:19
Where is Andy Burnham is going to get that money from to fix that problem? Which problem particularly
3:25
All of the problems. The problem he's addressing. He's saying he's going to build more houses
3:30
and he's going to fix the portholes and he's going to build that. That's what he's already saying
3:35
He's going to build that flood defences. Well, you can always make political choices
3:41
I suppose, is the initial answer to that. I'll give you an example of what he said. He was talking about benefits
3:46
You know, the benefits bill we know is huge. Benefits chasing the private rental system
3:51
So he's alluding to making sure that something is done about the price of the private rented sector
3:56
Again, I don't know what his plan is, but he's not wrong to say that the government, the taxpayer
4:04
is paying a huge amount of money to support people living in very expensive private rented accommodation
4:09
Private rented accommodation is where they have to live because we've decimated social housing
4:14
Totally counterproductive. Yes, Sheila, we all understand that. But for the government to change, the government needs money
4:21
And I think if any of the politicians before knew, they need to build more council houses
4:25
But the problem they have to deliver council houses, we depend on the market to deliver those houses
4:30
We don't have a government agency that build houses. And he's saying, I'm going to restructure that
4:36
Governments from St. Boris Johnson or David Patman been trying to restructure that and that is very hard to restructure and they have and the reason
4:42
why we can't restructure is that we don't have the money or the financial backing behind the
4:46
government to to to restructure because the market wouldn't lend us money rich people wouldn't lend
4:51
us their money to take them to make them make them less money if you get where i'm coming from
4:56
so unless andy bonner is telling me you have a pot of money that we're not going to borrow from
5:01
people from that he's going to fix that problem i cannot see how he's going to fix that problem
5:05
So he's just being deluded and giving me something different. This is why reform is where they are
5:10
Because we all politicians have been saying the same thing in a different way
5:15
Well, what's reform doing that's appealing in that case, do you think
5:20
Reform is just telling people how they feel and what they want. And reform is saying, I'm going to give you that by just squashing that
5:27
Andy Bonham is not saying that. Reform is saying I going to give you that money because I going to fire people in Whitehall And people can understand that So we going to get money because he going to fire all those quangos as he been saying
5:39
Andy Bonham is not telling me where that money is coming from. Well, there aren't enough quangos in the world to particularly boost our economy, Joseph, I don't think, however many you sack
5:49
The select committees on industrial strategy on the Parliament Channel have been consistent about it being the energy cost in this country
5:58
which are the greatest disincentive to re-industrialisation. You know, they're putting people off investing in this country for industries
6:12
So I'd like to know how he thinks he's going to get around that
6:18
The Labour government obviously know about that. Yes, of course. But they've not done anything about the energy costs so far, have they
6:26
No, I mean, he wasn't going to go into granular detail in that speech today. But you ask..
6:30
No, it does. It does, it does. And if he were to go on to be leader, he would very much have to answer that question
6:38
You're absolutely right, Anne. I think he should do it now rather than giving people false hopes
6:43
Right. And you're in Denton, as in Denton and Gorton? Yes. Yeah
6:48
Did you vote Labour last time? I voted Green. No, I voted Green. Can I just tell you, I was actually contemplating at one point
6:55
voting reform but i was i was put off ultimately because of the um alliances with donald trump
7:03
and particularly when donald trump posted that thing on his um fake truth social um which
7:12
particular thing you're gonna have to narrow it down with the um well i mean he's posted a lot of
7:18
rubbish, isn't he? But the thing that really did it for me was
7:22
when he posted that video, was it? Which had the Obamas being shown with Monty's
7:32
head. Oh, yeah. Absolutely ridiculous. And I started looking in for the Greens
7:38
after that and decided in the end that I would vote Green instead
7:42
and I did. And I voted Green again in the council elections
7:46
because Tameside Council have absolutely ruined Tameside over the decades. And actually, Andrew Burnham's consort strategy hasn't..
7:59
Well, we're not even on it. Well, he did talk there about extending it, didn't he, and expanding it
8:06
But I think your energy question is a really important one, Anne. And you're... I mean, you know, there was a limit to what he was going to cover today
8:12
but you're absolutely right. If he starts to campaign as leader, if he wins in Makerfield
8:18
That's an important... Just assume if he wins in Makerfield in everything I say, because we can't assume it
8:22
The voters of Makerfield will decide that. I'm going in because I heard Andy Burnham's speech
8:27
and I come from the south of England, and we talk about bridging the divide between the north and the south
8:33
I think he drove a great big wedge for the south in that talk
8:38
We suffer down in the south as much as anyone else does. Everyone thinks the streets of London are paved with gold
8:43
It's not. And I felt so detached, and this whole saga has made him not one vote to vote like that
8:50
But just to be clear, Trevor, I completely get what you're saying, but he was at a Great North investment conference
8:57
and he was giving a speech chat, different message. But you are completely right. A big question is how he manages, if he goes for the leadership
9:05
and then if he becomes prime minister, how he manages to appeal to that wider electorate
9:10
because he clearly has plans, if all goes well for him, to change Labour, and changing Labour
9:16
would mean winning the next election, wouldn't it, in his mind? Absolutely. I think Labour's been timid, and it's
9:23
not grabbed the issue with the EU, and I was hoping Andy Burnham today would say
9:28
we're going to go for the EU, because he's talking about growth, like all the politicians do
9:32
I don't see where it's coming from. I work on international logistics, and I look
9:36
at it, and I think, well, I just don't see it. And unless someone's bold enough in the room
9:40
to get up and say, that's what we're going to do, we're stuck in this psychodrama forever
9:46
And this is such folly to do it at a time when we're in such problems. And yes, reform, they are an issue
9:53
But they've tapped into something. I don't know what it is, but they've definitely tapped into something
9:57
And to keep blaming other people than what we're doing now is crazy
10:03
I think it's a silly thing for Labour to be doing. And I'm quite disappointed in Andrew Byrne
10:07
because I really like him as a politician. What did you think of what he said about
10:11
I wonder if there are any positives in it for you. like i i thought what he said about and he's not the first person to say it's not some miraculous
10:17
burnham idea but to talk about equalizing tech education and creating many more paths for kids
10:24
and teenagers into the workforce again he isn't the only politician who's spoken about that but
10:29
it's absolutely critical it seems to me no i i 100 agree with that i've got a daughter's got two
10:35
degrees and she's got 50 000 pounds worth of debt she's not got a house she's got nothing
10:40
absolutely nothing. She's 40 years old and that very pathway is exactly
10:46
correct but the way this is being done, the way it's being
10:50
manufactured and it does feel very divisive from Dan in the South East. I know
10:56
everyone says London, London, they get everything truly the people need to
11:00
know in the North, we respect everyone in the North They have had a hard time they been dear industrialised but that ain coming back that gone Yes but he not talking about mills He not talking about recreating mill towns and mining towns He talking about modern manufacturing Think of robotics I mean I went to a school
11:18
in South London when Rishi Sunak was prime minister to do an interview with him. And
11:22
it was a kind of a day in which the school got to show off all of the work it's doing
11:28
on tech education and vocational education. It was really impressive. It's called the
11:32
mulberry school for girls yeah and in it i walked into one room and i saw a mini i mean it wasn't
11:38
that mini as in it wasn't as big as a real one but it was it was a mini formula one race car
11:43
being made by some of the sixth formers and then there was a there was another um area that was all
11:49
about um people who wanted to go into nursing and health care and stuff like that and they were at
11:53
17 already doing it actively doing it as part of their a level and i was like this is education
11:59
this is modern education you know 110 i'll give you 100 there what you know we do need to look at
12:07
things differently what i left that interview with um andy bernie i didn't feel hopeful i thought
12:13
what has changed i don't feel any more hope than i did half an hour ago yeah and and that's the
12:19
thing if it come out and said this whatever i don't know how you're going to bridge that divide
12:23
do you know why i i completely take on i agree with what you've said trevor i agree with everything
12:28
you've said but but where i did see and hear a bit of hope was this was a man who he wasn't giving a
12:35
big barnstorming council speech that's not the speech he was giving he was talking to regional
12:40
colleagues in government that's who he was talking to so he's not going to speak to them as though
12:45
it's a barnstorming leadership speech but that aside you know in it he talked in a more conversational
12:53
way about a story didn't he told us a story he said listen if we can't get potholes fixed if we
12:59
can't sort flood defences if we can't make sure that people um know that they are on our agenda
13:06
what the hell are we here for what the hell are we here for you know and he spoke like a person
13:12
not a package do you know what i mean i get that i'll get that and he's right the thing i did like
13:18
when he said if we can't fix, if politics can't fix a potter, what can we do
13:22
And he's absolutely right. Cancel funding has been absolutely denuded. In my area, for example
13:28
we have a small problem with Little Swim Pool. Normally it takes 24 hours to solve
13:32
a week to solve. That's because there's no money. And that's the daily reality
13:38
Kids have missed swimming lessons for seven days. All because these are little things like that
13:43
He's right to do them. My question is this. is he going to bring together the south and the north i'm not sure um and is this the right time
13:51
to try and put labor for the next year and that's what a length of time we're looking at into a
13:56
into a horrible dogfight when reform we're going to be larger now i just don't get it well that's
14:02
a good question i doubt it'll take a year for the uh for the cookie to crumble and for us to see
14:07
exactly what's uh the end of it all is but um yeah i i i'll tell you one thing that i completely
14:14
agreed with was when he said now is the time to act because he's come in for a lot of criticism
14:22
for doing what he's doing isn't he because because of what it does to the Labour Party and to the government but I just I did I didn't see any evidence in last Monday's speech from the Prime
14:31
Minister that he could really shake things up and show us that there was a different Labour government
14:37
behind his number 10. I personally didn't see that. You know, I don't berate the government in its entirety by any means
14:46
They've done some good things. But there's no sense of a vision
14:50
And at least Andy Burnham in that speech was creating some kind of vision as to what he's about
14:57
I think the speech was inspiring. I think it was kind of good and refreshing to see a Labour leader
15:03
actually speak about something other than the South East. It was good, I think
15:09
But also as well, I think on the topic of the Greens putting forward a candidate
15:15
I would say if you vote Greens, you get reform. I just look at what happened in the..
15:20
I live in Milton Keynes, so in the local elections, the reform vote wasn't that strong across Milton Keynes
15:26
The anti-reform vote was pretty strong, but in Bletchley, the part where I live, reform ended up getting eight seats
15:32
because the anti-reform vote was split between Labour and the Tories. between Labour and the Greens
15:38
And so what happened was reform won by about 200 votes either way
15:42
and 500 votes went towards the Greens. So you can quickly see how voting Green would get you reformed
15:49
And when people, particularly Green members and Green politicians, say, hang on, but we're a political party
15:56
we're not here to facilitate other political parties, we're here to fight our own battles and persuade you with them
16:02
I think what's more important is the values that we share. Ultimately, what we don't want in some instances is a reformed government
16:10
And I think anything that would undermine Andy Burnham would effectively bring forward that outcome
16:17
And I think that's what it's about. So I think that plan is to kind of sit back and understand what's more important here
16:23
You know, my status and my party or the country. And ultimately, it's the country
16:27
I should confess that I'm in my mid-70s and I've been a Labour Party member for over 50 years now
16:34
until six years ago I was the leader of a Labour metropolitan borough council and a member of the board of the combined authority for the West Midlands Right so you seen it up close So it the same sort of mayor or combined authority as Andy Burnham runs
16:52
And the vision thing is what the Labour Party has singularly succeeded
16:57
to provide over the last two years. And I thought the speech today was the beginning of that political narrative
17:04
which focused on the renewal of local communities and on their identities and their active participation
17:11
and the respect for who we are, on being well and healthy, on belonging
17:20
and on how our children and grandchildren will gain the opportunities and the skills that they need
17:28
that will make them want to remain or return here. And when you were doing the work that you did in the Midlands politically, did you see a shift from people having a true connection to the place they lived in to feeling like they were sort of buffeted by events within it rather than being part of those events
17:50
Yeah, that's what I think is very cynical about the way West Streeting has behaved. I think to suggest that somehow by rejoining the European Union quickly would somehow improve the lives of those people is basically something just cynical
18:11
It's just cynical. Do you think it might boost the economy, the national picture
18:16
but keep those historical sort of neglect where it already is? Yes, exactly
18:22
Those communities have been left behind, not since Brexit, but by austerity
18:29
And that's why they voted leave. Which is something Andy Burnham talked about, didn't he
18:34
He talked about wanting to re-industrialise. he saw, he said, I made a note of it here
18:44
my core message, he says, is to look at what deindustrialisation did
18:48
to towns like Makerfield and to huge parts of the north in particular
18:53
Deregulation, privatisation, austerity, siphoned wealth out of these places. They just saw decline after decline
19:01
and paying big for the daily basics. I think it is the other thing as well
19:08
that he talked about. He talked about privatisation. He talked about how the state is set up
19:14
and where the power lies. And he talked about devolution and the reality of agency
19:20
being given back to local areas, local authorities, to communities themselves, to the private sector
19:26
to higher education, all those agencies that can play a part in the renewal of Britain
19:32
This starts to look much more convincing than anything we've ever heard from the Starmer government
19:37
I thought it was quite inspiring, really. I mean, I've not voted Labour in years and years, you know
19:43
but I thought it was really inspiring. And I felt that he spoke like he believed in what he was saying
19:50
rather than being coached to speak like you believe that you were saying
19:56
which, to be honest, when I hear Keir Starmer, I think, oh, he's been coached, he doesn't really believe it
20:03
But I think Andy Burnham does. So I was pretty impressed, really
20:08
And the content as well as the feel of it? Yeah, yeah
20:13
For the context, I thought the content was great. I mean, I live in the Midlands
20:17
It'd be lovely if he said the Midlands as well. Of course, you know. But never mind about that
20:22
Well, he's running in the North West, so I suppose he has to do. Yeah, I know, I know, I know
20:26
You know, and I thought it was good. Can I say a word about West Streeting
20:30
Is that all right? Of course. well i i thought west streeting for his short-term political gain made himself an asset to reform
20:40
in order to take out andy burnham at the knees and i thought that was despicable you mean with
20:46
the eu comments over the weekend yeah exactly you know that's what i think you know and i'm
20:52
really quite saddened by him really because i thought that was westminster as usual whereas
20:57
Andy Burnham sounded a bit different to me. And can I ask you a little bit about how you have voted, if I may
21:02
You don't have to tell me, Graeme, but you've said that you haven't voted Labour for years
21:07
Were you put off Labour having previously voted for them or did you never vote Labour
21:11
Oh, no, no. I voted Labour, voted Conservative, voted Reform, voted Lib Dems
21:18
I'm the archetypal floating voter of me. But, you know, I really try and listen to what people say
21:26
and all the rest of it. Yeah. And would you have given
21:30
let's imagine for a second you were a constituent in Makerfield. Which party would you have been looking at
21:36
Forget Andy Burnham for a second. Which party would you have been looking at? To vote
21:42
Well, I would have been looking at either Labour or Reform or Conservative
21:48
Okay, okay. One of those three. So you'd give the left a hearing
21:53
in the form of Labour, but you'd be still weighing up which party of the right is for you
21:59
Yeah, yeah. And after hearing Burnham as Labour, how do you feel now
22:05
Well, I mean, I can't help but be impressed, but I've not heard the others yet, have I
22:09
So it's not fair on the others, you know. What a perfect constituent you are, Graham
22:16
I don't know
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