How 9/11 changed the world | James O'Brien - The Whole Show

Three minutes after 10 is the time you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC

I don't know that I have a great deal to say to you at the top of the show this morning

which is fine because it is, of course, a phone-in. I'm just sort of wondering two things

I spoke to a man yesterday, you'll hear this conversation later, who was on his way to work that morning

and was due, in fact, in the windows on the World Restaurant

He was the executive chef up there, right up in the upper floors of the building

And for reasons that were entirely b, he decided to pop into the optometrists in the plaza

in the sort of shopping area at the bottom of the Twin Towers

It's the building, the structure that linked the two. And he had an appointment for later that day

but he was running quite early, so he thought he'd just pop in and see if they could deal with his needs

deal with his spectacles at that time. And that's why he wasn't at the top of the building

when the first plane hit. That was it. I mean, it almost sounds inadequate, doesn't it

to describe it as a sliding doors moment or a twist of fate

but it was that simple. I'll play that conversation a little later in the programme

but I kind of couldn't get past the beginning of it. We were supposed, really, obviously

to be talking about the broader ramifications and the memories of that day

But as I swatted up on his story before I met him

I just got stuck on that incredible happenstance, that incredible coincidence

and that idea. There's a famous piece of film footage when I think, was it, the Hindenburg Zeppelin caught fire

and I should have checked this before I came on air, I'm sorry. I think it was Walter Cronkite, the kind of iconic US newscaster

who just said this phrase, oh, the humanity. as he watched this airship burn

and obviously has the job in live broadcast context in real time

He obviously has the job of not only describing what he's seeing

but processing it as a human being. So not only describing what he's seeing as a broadcaster

but processing it as a human being. and I'm not sure there'll ever be a more perfect encapsulation of that process

than simply saying, oh, the humanity. Because many people, of course, watched the second plane

My guest, who you'll meet later, watched the second plane hit the building

at the point at which any suspicion, hope, I don't even know what the word is

that it was a coincidence or an accident of some sort. That disappeared completely

And, of course, also the prospect of some of the people still in the buildings getting out began to disappear

Nobody expected the buildings to collapse. And yet, of course, they did something that many people watched

both in New York, in the proximity, in the vicinity of the buildings

and also by then on the television cameras. There's people, as you just heard in the news there

you had a... It was Herb Morrison was the guy's name. Oh, the humanity, forgive me

I told you I should have checked before I came on air. I didn't know that was going to pop into my mind

I'll be honest with you, it just did. Because it was one of those examples

It was because I heard that newscaster in the news bulletin responding to the moment that was utterly unprecedented

utterly incomprehensible when another plane flew in to the buildings. And in that moment, you don't know what's going to come out of your mouth

And for Herb Morrison, for Herbert Morrison, it was, oh, the humanity

reporting on the fiery crash of the German airship Hindenburg in 1937

And it just sort of, it struck me. that you have moments in your memories

and then you don't. You kind of got caught up. I don't know what you were doing

I have no personal connection with New York City, really, let alone with the events of that day

I was on television, would you believe, the next morning, reporting on it with footage and with things like that

And I don't actually have crystal clear memories of it. because I think there was a sense of shock, wasn't there

And also, I mean, I've been doing this now for 20-odd years, and sometimes, I hope we never hit autopilot

but sometimes there are well-trodden paths that you go down, and you know that when X happens, Y follows

And I think we all just sat there. I was working with Matthew, actually, Matthew Wright, who is with you now, weekends on LBC

And I think we just went into a form of autopilot. It was a discussion show, but I mean, what do you say

I think you just kept describing what had happened and sort of reeling from it

And then this morning, and I don't know who makes these calculations, and I don't know whether they're scientifically accurate

but about 40% of the people alive now, certainly about 40% of Americans will have no memory of that day

because they were either not born or they were not old enough to have framed

what are called, I learnt this morning, what are called living memories

They have no memory of it whatsoever. I'm going to ask you a question

but not as a phone-in, just as a sort of, as a marker

as a punctuation mark for our conversations this morning. When is, before this

before this moment, before this anniversary appeared on your radar, before you noticed or someone told you

or you read that it was coming up on the calendar, that it was coming up on the horizon

when was the last time you thought about it? When was the last time it entered your mind

Because if, like me, you had no personal connection with it whatsoever

I suspect it probably doesn't pop up in your mind that often. And yet it was an event of such epic significance and importance

that I truly believe it changed the world for everybody. Whether they know it or not for everybody

it changed the United States' relationship with both itself and the rest of the world

There probably some sort of timeline from the Patriot Act that came in as a consequence right through to many of the depravities that Donald Trump has inflicted on the world And remember he continues to tell actual lies about what happened that day what he was doing that day and where he was that day

The President of the United States, and we thought George W. Bush was perhaps

a little bit suboptimal. And now you've got the President of the United States of America

approaching this anniversary by lying through his teeth. I don't know whether or not without 9-11

you would never have had Donald Trump, but certainly the vulnerability that it exposed

at the heart of the American dream was something that we have subsequently discovered

left much of the population vulnerable to the populist snake oil salesmen

And if the right populist snake oil salesman came along promising to, wait for it, make America great again

not really knowing what it means, but I suspect September the 11th was a day upon which

America did not feel great. It felt vulnerable, it felt threatened, and it felt attacked

because it was all of those things. And you don't get to wipe that slate clean

and start afresh the next morning. It changed the world. That's in one way

And then, of course, it changed a million worlds. It changed countless worlds on a very individual and personal level

But oh, the humanity. Oh, the humanity. What I think we'll do today, and I can do nothing without you, never forget that

What I think that we'll do today is both of those things

how did it so what i want you to imagine is having a conversation with somebody who has no idea what

the world was like before before osama bin laden and his his murderous accomplices launched this

deadly terror attack um what what was the world like before if you're a muslim i suspect that the

changes were pretty violent and pretty swift i don't think any of us i mean we had racism of

course in this country and and in the west but we didn't have a specific animus for people of the

muslim faith which we were very quickly encouraged to develop most of us happily didn't but some

people um just as today you know you can have a murder committed by a sikh and somebody like

Nigel Farage will try and somehow blame it on everybody who's brown

everybody in the country who wasn't born here. And very quickly in the aftermath of September the 11th

people who, because the terrorists don't distinguish. I remember a later Islamist terror attack in Nice

on the promenade in Nice, and I think the first woman who was hit by the

good Lord, I nearly used a word there that would have got me immediately taken off air. The first woman to be hit by the scumbag in the truck

was a Muslim woman in full veil. So, you know, the idea that you are both victim

and also perpetrator if you're Muslim, that started that day. You're just as likely to be a victim of these scumbags

but in the minds of some very bad people who have great influence

you're also being encouraged to think that every Muslim is somehow a threat

So that's just another way. If you're American, if you're traditional American

WASP American, white Anglo-Saxon Protestant American, that was the day that America ceased to feel like the king of the hill, right

It ceased to feel like the fortress America. It ceased to feel like the biggest boy on the block

And if you're a Muslim, wherever you are in the world, that's the day that you ceased to be able to live, I think

correct me if I'm wrong, you know the number, but it ceased to be, your life ceased to be something

that you were more or less free to live privately and personally with no one taking any more interest in your faith

than they do in my Catholicism. That's how the world changed that day

0345 6060 973 is the number that you need. So what is your personal recollection or connection with this

0345 6060 973. but I also want you to tell me how you think the world has changed

because, you know, I don't know a couple of the politicians that I've mentioned in this introduction

who make entire careers out of spreading hatred I wonder whether people would have been as susceptible to that hatred

if we hadn't been so terrorized by the terrorists not just, of course, on September the 11th

but subsequently in this town on July the 7th in other towns on the day when that truck

made its way down the beachfront in Nice. I don't know, actually

whether or not the rise in far-right sensibilities is a consequence, because that's the cause

and this is the ultimate hideous irony, that's what the terrorists want. The terrorists want us to turn on each other

The people who hate the liberties, the freedoms that the West represents

love the idea of people turning up outside hotels full of people who look a bit different from them

and trying to set fire to them. But I don't know whether that would have all happened anyway

Whether or not the things that the terrorists want, in very much the same way that what Vladimir Putin wants

in the modern world, is for safe, stable, liberal democracies to start fighting among themselves

And you can't really get them to do that on the grounds of things that are true

so you need to sell them things that are not true. Like, all immigrants are a threat

all refugees are dangerous, All Muslims are terrorists. All asylum seekers are rapists

It's never true, but the worst thing that can happen from the point of view of the victims of that hatred

and the people who are capable of comprehending it, is that somebody comes along and gives the hate mongers and the hate preachers ammunition

And September the 11th was the mother of all missiles in the context of that ammunition

You want to make everybody terrified of Muslims? Well, here are some Muslims you should be terrified of

And just don't pause to wonder whether or not you're actually delivering what the terrorists wanted by encouraging people to be terrorized

I think it's huge that day. I really do. And I think it's extraordinary to think of the people who don't know

You know it was massive. You know the numbers. You know the statistics

some of the stories, and you've seen the footage quite possibly, but you've got absolutely no idea of what changed

And ultimately, nor of those of us who were conscious and cognizant at the time

I've given you two little things. They might be wrong. It might not be true

The tidal waves of hatred that have washed up on our shores in the last 10 years especially

they may not have their source in what happened 25 years ago. It may not have set in motion processes

that we're still witnessing today. I may be wrong about being a Muslim

You may have noticed no change whatsoever in your life as a consequence of both the terrorism and the terrorised I don know Who knows I don know what it like to be American And to have grown up thinking that you were a fortress America

This was the country that uniquely almost in human history was safe

You know, barring perhaps the Cuban Missile Crisis, this was the country where you were never vulnerable

You know, there's been no blitz in the United States of America. Pearl Harbor was, you know, not a blip, but it didn't actually threaten people living in Middle America

Just a precursor to the Americans getting involved in a European war

And then, you know, in the aftermath of September the 11th, the Europeans got involved in an American war

Probably an ill-advised war, which, um, the ramifications of which we're still seeing today

what um what changed 03456060973 put it into your own words and you can do what I am doing

which is take a step back because I have no personal connection with any of this

it's weird I don't even have what a lot of journalists have which is a real soft spot for New York City

or a real connection with US media I hadn't been around long enough

I wasn't old enough I'd never been there um I don't think

I'd never been there um what changed that day 03456060973 you can say any angle you please okay any angle you please

and i also want to hear about what it means to you and why that the connection that you have with

it i'll introduce you a little later today to michael lomenarco who as i say was the was the

sort of boss, the executive chef at the top of the Twin Towers and would have been at work

had he not decided to take a brief detour into an optometrist at the bottom of the building

instead of making his usual route directly to the elevator. And so that story is just

extraordinary. But there'll be millions of stories or thousands of stories, some arresting

some less so, but all part of the extraordinary sort of tapestry of experience that starts being

assembled in moments like that. And I want to know what yours is. 03456060973 is the number that you

need. Okay? It's 21 minutes after 10, and it's never truer, is it, than in mornings like this

that without you, I've got no show. We've got no conversation. And your answers to the questions

that I've asked in the first instance are just as valid, probably more valid than mine

and in the second instance I don't have any answers really to how it changed

21 minutes after 10 is the time. James O'Brien on LBC. It is 10.23

and I haven't touched on the imagery. You know, I'm almost reluctant to do so

because it is for those people that I'm thinking about who have no memories of it

or who certainly have no living memories of it and quite possibly weren't alive when it happened

it still feels alien, the idea of the people who jumped out of the windows

because the alternative was the flames. The colleagues of Michael, who I'll introduce you to later

waving tablecloths. Do you remember that footage? Waving tablecloths out of the window of the restaurant

in some sort of forlorn hope that they would draw attention to themselves

Not even forlorn, because at this point still, Nobody thought the buildings would collapse

So maybe that's your memory, the collapse, the humanity. It's 24 after 10

Sapreet's in Birmingham. Sapreet, what made you pick up the phone? Morning, James

I love your show. I know today's a bit of a heavy topic

but I called in because you were speaking about the impact or questioning the impact that 9-11 had on people's lives

I'm born in the UK. I'm very obviously an Indian person or a South Asian person with my name, with the way that I look

Born in the 80s, we experienced very minor, subtle versions of racism growing up

But it's not something our parents drilled. They didn't drill any fear into us regarding this because they felt that times were safe

They had gone through all the initial racism of people moving into the country and they built themselves up

But I remember being probably in year eight or year nine at school when 9-11 actually happened

And coming home from school, my parents were glued to the TV screen

They didn't even want us to speak because what they were seeing was so devastating

But the next morning, I remember the conversation around the table, how frightened they were to send my sister and I to school

We used to walk to school at that point. but they had decided that at least

for the next four or five days they were going to drop us off in the car to make sure that we got there

okay. It was the first time Straight away and your Sikh I presume from your name rather than Muslim

and straight away your family were thinking. Do you know even this week

I saw something on social media and I only see the stuff now from Twitter that gets picked

up and reported elsewhere but it was someone explaining why he has no, he makes no apology

for feeling very, very uncomfortable when you see someone on a plane in a turban

I think on that day, I would have said, you've got nothing to worry about

but I'd have been so stupid to think that because 25 years later, people are still saying

I don't want to be on a plane with someone in a turban because they have neither the wit nor the interest

in understanding you shouldn't even be frightened of Muslims. You should just be frightened of terrorists

Well, exactly, but that's the thing, that when you try and consider the impact

that these events have on us as a people. And I don't just mean about Asian people or people

I just mean on us as humanity as a whole. Of course. It's completely understandable that the images that you see on screen

are going to terrify people. That's the word terrorism. It terrifies people

There's terror. But the way that certain things can be reported, as you mentioned, Donald Trump or even George W. Bush at the time

yes, there is that real fear and we have to protect our countries

and we have to protect our people. But it becomes so easy after an event like that

to create an us and them dynamic. So much so to the point where

even within South Asian communities, I remember Sikhs and Hindus trying to make it very clear

that they were not Muslim because they were so afraid of what impact it could have on them

Only recently when we had the stabbing of the Sikh man, I remember now that I'm 40

and I'm not in year eight at school anymore. The stabbing by the Sikh man. Yeah, yeah, sorry

I remember at that point being, again, being scared that, oh, people in my community, I run a business, people always talk about how friendly and lovely and integrated Sikh people are

But every now and then we get people that come into the shop that may not know what background we're from, or even may

But suddenly, does this change the relationship that the British Sikhs have with the rest of the British communities

And again, not just Sikhs. That actually cuts back the other way, doesn't it

Because Nigel Farage tried to turn that against the express wishes, of course, of Henry Novak's family

into a critique of all immigration. Everybody whose parents Well I presume everybody brown whose parents weren Well that not true because during Brexit people with polish names like novak would have been on his hit list as well and everybody whose parents weren born here were brought into his quotes critique and quotes of

of that hideous crime we don't know though do we whether or not september the 11th is a crucial

part of that process we can never know for sure i think i think if somebody from one of those

communities, to me, there was a life living in the UK before 9-11 and a life after. For me

as someone who, yes, I feel very welcomed with open arms. I feel British. I feel proud to be

British. But the us and themness became so strong around that time that even as somebody who was

what, 12 or 13 years old, at that time, I felt the impact of it so strongly

so strongly. Whenever I speak to people now from various backgrounds, if they are not Caucasian living in this country

even if they're third generation living here, they can feel proud to be British their entire lives

But the minute something like this happens or the memory of something like this becomes refreshed

that familiar, horrible feeling of dread always comes back. That, you know, right now are people

going to suddenly remember that people who looked a little bit like me, I'm not going to say Muslims

but terrorists who use the name of Islam. I'm going to get the blame for this

So you could be a victim of a terror attack. And if you're not, you could get the blame for it as well

100%. I remember soon after 9-11, I was traveling on the tube in London. And I remember even then

whispers like people looking at my family and I and sort of edging away

And these are things that, again, if you're born and raised in this country and you're Caucasian

you probably won't notice it. But if you're a brown kid growing up in this country

and you spot people keeping a few feet's distance from you as a child

that has a really lasting impact. That does stay with you. Of course it does. Of course it does

The first person killed, of course, in a hate crime that was widely regarded as a sort of misguided attempt of revenge

In the aftermath of the September 11th attack, Balbir Singh Sadi in Arizona was a Sikh

Yeah. So you don't really need to say any more than that, do you

The first person that some headbanger killed was a Sikh. And that's it

The unfortunate truth is that I feel like this event that took place in our lifetime and in our living memory

in the same way that there was a world before COVID and a world after, I feel for many of us that have the living memory

there will always be a world before 9-11 and a world after. And you've articulated that really well

And you've also reminded me and most, I suppose, statistically people listening

that we can't know unless we are brown-skinned. We can't know the way that the world treated you changed that day

which is, of course, what the terrorists wanted. And an awful lot of the people who are doing the terrorist bidding

do so through fear or innocence or ignorance, not through evilness or hatred

but just through terror. That's what terrorism does. It terrorises. 10.31 is the time

I mean, there's so much on the list. There's the big stuff that Sapreet has just touched upon

But there's also a couple of people in my inbox still banging the old conspiracy theory drum

Now, I know people thought the moon landings were fake. But would we have had, for example

Sapreet just mentioned COVID, Would we have had the absolute nonsense about everything from vaccines and phone masks right through to Yule's cameras

Would that mad misinformation and disinformation have taken hold if the aftermath of September the 11th hadn't coincided with the explosion of the internet

and this idea that you could do your own research and come up with conclusions that were entirely at odds with reality

but which you felt were proof that you were somehow being lied to by the authorities

I don't know. It just popped into my head as one of the other things that perhaps has changed

0345 6060973 is the number you need to tell me how you think the world changed

either your world or the whole world, which Supreet managed to do a little bit of both

And then the personal connections, the personal memories, the reason why this date has a particular resonance for you

beyond the resonance it has for everybody human, in a way. 10.32 is the time

Matt Hewitt has your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC. 10.35 is the time

This from Ellie. Well, I'll just read it. I flew to Cairo the week after 9-11

It was a jumbo jet and it was half filled. The cabin crew said that many had decided not to travel

I was one of only a handful of white Europeans on board. the majority being Middle Eastern looking, and it was the first time I felt uncomfortable being

around so many people who were wearing Middle Eastern clothing. I honestly hadn't been previously

I went to Leicester University. I was used to vibrant multicultural, and I felt guilty for

feeling that way at that time, and I still do. The world has definitely changed from that point on

I bring it right up to the present day, and would people apparently be unconcerned by masked

thugs turning up in Dover and Portsmouth last week if something sown that day wasn't still

in existence today? I don't know. I'm just sort of wondering. I mean, are there any benign changes

Are there any things that actually got better as a consequence? The responses to terror attacks can

be extraordinarily inspiring. The aftermath of July the 7th in this city was memorable

for the refusal of London in particular to be terrorised. Maybe that's one of the reasons why

the people who want their own citizens to be terrorised, the people who peddle great replacement theories

and sundry other racist claptrap the far right on the rise, maybe that's why they all hate London

Because we responded to a terror attack with, I don't even want to say courage

That sounds too highfalutin. We just refused. I'm generalising enormously, but I was actually on air that day

And we refused to be terrorized. After that initial shock and that initial discomfort

that Ellie described so perfectly, you realize you didn't want to live your life like that

10.37 is the time. Speaking of being on air that day, and I speak, of course, of the July the 7th terror attacks

On London, Mark in Brighton, Mark Riley, was on air that day in New York, weren't you, Mark

Yes, I was. How are you doing, James? I'm good. It's always nice to hear your voice, but especially today

Yeah, it was a singular time. I started that morning thinking that there was going to be a mayoral primary that day

which was what everybody was focused on. And as I was coming into work, I saw the first plane hit the first tower

And I thought it was like a private plane. I didn't think it was a commercial airliner

By the time I got into the office, I started to learn more information

And I spent probably, I would say, three or four hours dispelling rumors because people were calling me and I was calling what was called DCPI

which is the Deputy Commissioner for Public Information at the police department

And because there were rumors that there was a bomb in Grand Central, Port Authority bus terminal was going to blow up monuments all over the city

there were rumors that these explosions were going to take place. And the one thing, James, I have to tell you

The one thing that stayed with me well after September 11th was the smell

The smell of what it seemed like, I guess you'd say, an electrical outlet blowing up

And it stayed for months, literally months, because I used to go down to the area around City Hall, which wasn't far from Ground Zero

And you could smell it literally till Christmas. And it was a profound, profound event

And I don't say that in a positive way. I had a friend who died on the 98th floor

So I know a little bit about how people reacted. And, I mean, the most terrifying thing, James, that I've ever seen, ever

was seeing people jump out of the top floors of those buildings to their death

that was something that stays with me to this day and to an extent it's not about politics it's not

about any of that it's about human life and the loss of human life and how people reacted in the

wake of that and i have to say new yorkers by and large pulled together i didn't get home till 10 30

that night. And it was really just talking to people, dispelling rumors. The next day

I went down to an armory, you know, where they, you know, do drill and National Guard and that

And Bill Clinton was there. And he came without any security, he came without cameras, none of

that. And he was consoling the victims because that's where people went to identify remains

And it was one of the most heart-wrenching experiences of my life, watching that take place

Of course it was. Of course it was. Did you broadcast? Did you

I broadcasted all day. So when you say you were dispelling rumors, you were using, you were on WLIB radio

and you were using that platform to try to get the truth out there. Absolutely, because it was so rampant

You know, people were calling me. Of course. And I had to go on the air and say, look, I just spoke to the police department

I just spoke to DCPI. And there is no bomb in Grand Central

There is no bomb at Port Authority. There is no bomb at the Pan Am building

And just dispelling those rumors took a lot of time, a lot of time

And, you know, you have to realize transit was completely paralyzed at that point

People couldn't travel. They had shut the subways down. Everything was closed

And people were out in the street. There were like waves of people. At one point, I took a short break and walked out in front of the radio station and looked down Park Avenue southbound

And it was just like this sea of people and nobody knew anything

You know, there were all kinds of things floating around at that point

And to be honest, it wasn't until a couple of days later that people started focusing on Muslims, on Arabs, whatever

People didn't know what Al-Qaeda was the day this took place. But in a couple of days, people focused their anger

And in many cases, I heard one of your callers talk about, you know, the attack on a Sikh

That happened in New York, too. Same thing, because people misinterpreted and mistook Sikh garb for Arab garb

And it was like, you know, again, you have to say to people, at least I had to say to people

A, this is wrong and B, we need to get justice not vigilantism

And I suppose that set the war in motion or the ball in motion for the Iraq war actually

that kind of incoherent need for some sort of justice. At street level it's vigilantism

At international level it's attacking Iraq for events that had their roots largely in Saudi Arabia

Yeah, and they couldn't do it in Saudi Arabia because Saudi Arabia was an ally

And a customer. And a customer, exactly, a customer. All that oil kind of negated any retaliatory response

from the United States against the Saudis, so they took it out on Saddam Hussein

Can you remember the moment that any vestige of doubt or that it was a deliberate targeted attack upon your town disappeared

Because you mentioned that originally you thought it was a private plane and it could have been an accident

And when I was speaking to Michael Lomonaco yesterday, you know, there is a sort of a burgeoning realisation

But can you remember the moment at which you just went, wow

Well, see, you've got to put this in context, James. Several months earlier, a private plane that was actually, I think, piloted by a member of the New York Yankees, the baseball team, crashed into an apartment house on the east side of Manhattan

Right. And I think the guy was killed, as a matter of fact

But either way, when I first heard about this, I thought, oh, man, another private plane because it had happened before

And it wasn't until I actually got into the office and people said, no, that was no private plane

That was a commercial jetliner, which took a minute to process. I'm like, how in the hell does a jetliner go into the side of a building

And then I was on the 41st floor. Our offices were on the 41st floor of a building on Park Avenue

And I could look down southbound and see the towers. And I saw the second tower go down

And I was just absolutely speechless. Could you hear it? Could you hear it as well

No, because we had double glazed windows. So you're watching, I mean, that makes it even more eerie in a way, doesn't it

That you're watching silently the world turn. It's almost like sci-fi. It's almost like a horror movie

Watching a building collapse, because I had never seen anything like that before in my life

and I think most New Yorkers never had either. Nobody had, really. Not on that scale

I mean, buildings had been blown up and buildings had collapsed, but not iconic buildings in that way

and not as a consequence of what by then was undeniably a deliberate targeting of you

of your people, of your town, of the West, of liberty, of freedom, of everything that we kind of, particularly Americans

had thought was pretty close to impregnable before that day. Well, yeah, nobody ever thought, I mean, I had been in the World Trade Center dozens of times

And you know the idea that these buildings could Which is by the way part of the fuel for the conspiracy that it wasn the planes that made the buildings fall Because that still out there

25 years later, people are still saying, oh, no, it couldn't have been because the structure it is

No. The bottom line was it was a terror attack. And by the way, a lot of people don't focus all that much

My sister-in-law was working at the Pentagon at the time. And that last plane landed fairly close to the Pentagon, fairly close to where she was

So a lot of the calls I was making was just making sure my family was okay

And then I got home. It had to have been 10, 30, 11 o'clock because I couldn't get out of Midtown Manhattan because there were no trains

And when I got to the train station, my wife was waiting for me, and she just collapsed around

She thought I was in mortal danger myself. It was a singular time, I hope

I mean, I'm an old man, so I'm pretty sure it's not going to happen again in my lifetime

But, you know, nobody deserved that. And certainly the aftermath, good and bad, was something that could not have been predicted when those planes first went into the tower

No, no. And as you remind us, for the first 24 or 48 hours at least, people were far too busy dealing with the immediate impact

than wondering in good ways or bad about the ramifications and the consequences

What did you do when you got home? Went to bed. I had been up for like 16, 20 hours and I just collapsed

I went in the house, collapsed, slept for a while, and then got back up very early to September 12th to figure out what was going on

And James, you've got to understand, for somebody like me who was covering politics in New York at the time

I woke up the morning of September 11 thinking, oh, okay, well, we've got a Democratic primary

and it's Fernando Ferrer against Mark Green. I'm processing all that information in my head before I saw the plane

before I saw what turned out to be that catastrophe. And obviously the primary was canceled then, which, by the way

an unintended consequence of which was to give Mike Bloomberg the breathing room

that got him elected mayor. Oh, wow. I didn't know that. There's little ripples, isn't there, that come out from massive rocks

And you woke up on September the 12th in a completely different world

A completely different world. But let me just tell you a very quick anecdote about that

You don't need to hurry. You don't need to hurry, Mark. Well, I mean, this was something that happened sometime afterward

but I had one of the mayoral candidates on my show, right

And he made the mistake of saying, if I were mayor at the time

I would have done a better job than Rudy Giuliani. Now, Giuliani was mayor at the time

and he was sainted after 9-11, okay? Bloomberg's people called me as soon as my show ended

and they said, we want that tape. And sure enough... God, became a part of their campaign

Yeah, it did. They kept running that quote and then saying, really

And it was part of what destroyed that particular candidate's dream. And now, I have to say this

because the contrast in 25 years is so extraordinarily stark. Now you've got an actual president who lies about it all with impunity

Oh, yeah. He lies about all of it, including the idea that he was rescued. But the other irony is we've got a Muslim mayor

Yes, that's true. That's good, yin and yang, eh? Yeah, yeah, full circle, as it turns out

I forgot. Yeah, I mean, and, you know, Mamdami, Republicans in New York were trying to tell him

don't come to the 9-11 commemoration at Ground Zero, which is the most absurd thing I've ever heard in my life

Nobody has the right to tell a sitting mayor he can't come because he's Muslim

What are you, nuts? And there it is. What are you doing today

You're just reflecting. Yeah, I'm kind of reflecting. I'm thinking about going to the gym, work off a little excess energy

I had to go to the doctor early this morning, get some bloods drawn. But, you know, life goes on

Life goes on. Life goes on. It really does, doesn't it? Mark, thank you

No worries. I'm so glad you were able to call in today. I'm so glad you were listening

No, I appreciate it, James. Well, I appreciate you. It's 10 to 11

Mark Riley there, who was, as you heard, on air in New York that day, on WLIB

and had the, I don't even know what you'd call it, I do know what you'd call it

the duty of getting the truth out there as the world descended into something that it had never seen before

10 to 11 is the time. Your story doesn't obviously have to be as personal as Mark's or as arresting

It could be something relatively small. Look at that little thing there that he told us, the mayoral primaries

That's what Michael Lomonaco, who was running the windows on the World Restaurant

that's what he was doing. That's why he was early to work that day, was because he'd gone to vote in that mayoral primary

And because he was early to work, he thought, I'll pop into the optometrist, I won't go straight up to the..

Is it the 86th floor? It's one of the high floors where the restaurant used to be

And that's why he's alive today. That's why we could speak to him yesterday. You'll hear that conversation shortly

James O'Brien on LBC. It is 10.54. Listen to this. I'm getting some extraordinary messages today, as you'd expect

but there's no guarantee I will see them all when they come in this quickly

I'm so glad that I spotted this one from Fabio. I think about it, he writes

at the most random points, quite often, but then I have family in New York

It just strikes you numb. I don't know if I'll listen today, James, as it's very emotional to think about

All I'd say is, as important as it is to remember the people in the attack on the towers

personally, as my aunt was there the day before, and by pure luck was at home at the time

I also remember the Pentagon attack, Flight 93, the 150 boats that helped evacuate half a million people in nine hours

the 212 fire units that responded, the official NYFD, the fire department response time, being five seconds

I remember ordinary people like Rick Rescala from Cornwall who made JPMorgan employees practice evacuation routes

His actions and their training saved almost 3,000 lives. He went back into the building and died trying to save more

James, you could spend all day reading and remembering the extraordinary actions of the most ordinary people

who did more in a few moments than most do in a lifetime And that's before you mention all the efforts in the days and years afterwards, from the come-from-aways in Newfoundland to New York to here

It's strange to think such a dark time that led to many more dark days could somehow be so inspiring

And I hope people remember that more so than any idiotic comments today that we get from the vain idiot in Washington And that is a reminder to me that my phone lines should be open for that as well Stories of courage I think

And I've wondered about this a bit in the last 20 years. But I think that's where my..

And I don't know if you're aware of this, actually, but I think that must be partly where

my extraordinary regard for firefighters comes from. More so, perhaps, and unfairly

because they're all equally brave. But for me, I think firefighters and coast guards

have a place in my heart, and I'll use that word very happily, very deliberately

have a place in my heart that is pretty close to unique. Because as Fabio says

you never know what you'll do when you find yourself in these circumstances

And you hope, like Rick Rescala from J.P. Morgan, a Cornish man, you hope that you would..

Sorry, a man from Cornwall. You hope that you would rise to the occasion and do the things that would make you the person that you hope that you are

But for firefighters and all emergency responders, it's not fair, this position, this opinion that I have

But for me, firefighters and coastguards, oddly, firefighters very much at the heart of this story

coastguards very much in the news at the moment, they are the very, very, very best of us

and yet maybe the weird tidal waves of vitriol and bile that are engulfing the RNLI at the moment

have some of their roots and beginnings in the events that we're discussing today

but I think that's where my firefighter admiration, the depth of my admiration for firefighters was established

I could be wrong. It just struck me as I was reading Fabio's message

I am obviously minded to continue with this conversation. Please don't think that there is no point sharing your story

just because Mark's was so extraordinary and so personal and indeed Michael's, who you'll hear in the next hour

Because it's about all the other stuff as well. It's about why this gob on a stick on the radio

has such an extraordinary admiration for firefighters. It's about how Michael Bloomberg became mayor of New York

It's about why a Sikh lad in Birmingham woke up the next morning feeling a sense of dread that has never left him since and that he'd never felt before

It's why politics feels different. Everything feels different. And it's why I want you to try to explain to someone who wasn't there before how the world changed

So the personal and the political, how the world changed, because that's the world they, that's the only world they know

And, you know, some of us know two worlds. And I guess if you're a white, middle-class bloke like me, the shift wasn't really that profound in the moment

It's only now you can really see how successful the terrorists were in sowing hatred

The hatred that's directed at Sadiq Khan today. that wouldn't be the same, would it, were it not for what happened 25 years ago

James O'Brien on LBC. It is three minutes after 11 you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC

where we continue to mark the 25th anniversary of the September 11th

September the 11th terrorist attacks leaving 2,977 people dead. I don't have a number for how many died subsequently as a consequence of what happened that day

Some are caused by their own hand. And, again, it's a reminder of the long-term ramifications of tragedy, of atrocity, and also of responding

Paramedics, emergency responders of every kind. And in a way, I'm not going to say they're the least surprised of all

but they're the most programmed of all, even more than journalists, is that that is what you do

You know where to go. You go in while we run out

And I think for me, on a very small, tiny, tiny level

I think that changed for me that day. I really do. I've only clocked that literally in the last 10 minutes

How did the world change? and how, I mean, why does what resonates with you today

resonate with you? What happened? To explain your perspective, your position on this

and its personal nature or its peculiarity. Ben's in Huddersfield. Ben, what would you like to say

Hey, James. First time call, a long-time listener. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Don't be nervous

Correct. So, yeah, I was teaching English as a foreign language in South Korea at the time of the attack

22 years old in a foreign country, yeah. I lived with an American

and we were watching TV at the time. So it was just shock

It was just... We didn't really understand what was happening. And he had relatives who were..

I think he had a friend who worked in the towers. So it was just a kind of..

We just didn't know what was happening. We couldn't understand it, as most people were confused as to what was happening

And I left him. He phoned home, and I left the building we lived in

and walked to a local pool hall, which is what I did most evenings

And as you walked along the streets, you could see people looking at you. There were only a handful of foreigners in the country at the time teaching English

but the majority of foreigners were American GIs. There'd be an air base there, was there

Yeah, yeah. Huge, huge presence. So the assumption from the locals was always that you were a soldier, an American soldier

So people looking at you and thinking that you were a soldier

And as it all unfolded, it became increasingly unstable and people weren't sure whether it would trigger

So the air base could have been under attack. The South Korean government, what did they do

I think, didn't they... They locked down, the Americans locked down every soldier on every air base

Because we just didn't know if... I think that's huge. I think that's huge because you're an American soldier and, no, you're not

but you think you're the world's police force and you think you're always on the front foot

You're always ahead and the enemy is always behind. You're always in pursuit

You're always ready. And then there was so much confusion and horror in the aftermath of this

that they did a thing that I'm not sure the United States has ever done before

and they closed up like a shell. Yeah, because we didn't know

We thought there was a potential for geopolitical sort of unrest, and the North Koreans were, you know, they were still at war

Yeah, of course. Effectively I lived 15 miles from the DMZ so the potential for an opportunist attack from the north which seemed crazy but It doesn though It was a real and present fear Yeah

Absolutely. So I had my family just sort of not really understanding what was happening

and fearing that something else could happen, because as things progressed, it just became more and more unbelievable

and anything kind of seemed possible. yes so we really didn't know

yes especially when the other planes came down and that idea that this could go on for

for god knows how long there could be more and more and more things happening

and then you know then the London attacks and then I mean that idea that the master minded

for want of a better word Al Qaeda attacks it took a while to accept that they were

going to prove to be quite self contained they could have been like you know planned things in other countries, like you say

and that's what the people on the base in South Korea would have been thinking about. You know, we don't know

You can fly a plane into the World Trade Center. You can fly a plane into anything

Yeah, yeah. And the Americans, I think, felt that... For the first time, I think, felt genuinely vulnerable

across the world. I think, yeah, I mean, I should have maybe asked Mark about that

but I think he'd done enough heavy lifting already. But it's a shift in psyche, I think, that we're describing, isn't it

And no one's ever... It's not science, this. You're never going to be able to trace what happens today

right back inarguably and irrefutably to what happened 25 years ago. But there's a shift in psyche there that makes America

susceptible to somebody coming along promising to make them impregnable again or make them great again

even if he's one of the biggest charlatans ever to draw breath. Yes, quite

Isn't it? I hadn't thought of it that way round. Thank you, Ben. Have you been back

I mean, do you have fond memories of the country? Yeah, it was one of the greatest parts of my life, yeah

I haven't been back, but have plans to, yeah. Good man. It's nine minutes after 11

You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. That just sort of... The weird bits that come into it that you weren't expecting

and then the bits that when you acknowledge them feel absolutely huge. If you are an American listening to this

what do you think about the idea that the national psyche shifted

And I believe that that's true. I also believe that things like national psyches exist

You know, they are framed often by adversity. The blitz spirit is not a figure of speech

It's a real thing. Even the stiff upper lip actually is a real thing

albeit in retrospect not quite as healthy for the population as the blitz spirit

You have that. And I'm not as plugged in as I should be to the United States

I just don't know why I should be. I got offered a job there once and I really fancied it

But in the final ysis, I thought, no, I love it here. I'm a Brit

I mean, by then I was very much a Londoner. I don't want to live anywhere else, even if it's a bigger stage or a bigger..

I just love London. I love Britain. I love flipping Kidminster. I don't want to go anywhere else

And I never had that. Like a lot of people in my world have this real deep relationship with them

So I don't know if it's fair to suggest that the national psyche shifted

That you go from being the country of, what, Top Gun and Rocky

to being the victim, not the winner. No wonder George W. Bush felt the need to attack somebody

And as we were discussing with Mark a moment ago, they couldn't attack Saudi Arabia, where most of the terrorists came from

and where Osama bin Laden came from. So they had to attack Iraq or Afghanistan

They had to attack somewhere. We are America. We have been breached

We have been hurt. We have been bloodied and bruised and we have to do something

And so if you want to look at the consequences or how the world changed and you're thinking about September the 11th

then think about the Iraq war, how that changed the world, how it continues to have changed the world

you know, from Syria to Moscow. The events of that day will reverberate

through international relations, diplomacy and humanity for arguably forever or for as long as we're around

11-12 is the time. James is in Haywood Heath. James, what would you like to say

Oh, good morning. Be gentle, this is a first-time caller. You're welcome. I can't imagine that I'm going to monster anybody today

unless they start trying to tell me that it was all organised by the lizard people and that I'm a mug for believing it was terrorists

Definitely not. No, it probably triggers me this day every time. I'm an airline pilot for a British airline

and I've been flying about three, four years at that point and my entire career changed on that day

I hadn't thought I hadn't. Of course it did, in every way. Well, I mean, prior to that hijacking

we'd always assume that we'd be flying the aeroplane or they want us to do something

and the fact that they took over the aircraft and killed the pilots at that point

Changed everything in an instant. And subject to that, we've got armoured doors

The old days, you know, we used to have people looking for the toilets that come into the flight deck and we'd invite them down and have a chat

I think I'd done a flight to Mallorca once. My family I was staying with, his friend

worked for Britannia Airways as an air hostess, so I got to go and sit with the pilot in the front of the cockpit for a bit

That was common. It was just what we did. And certainly if you were a nervous passenger

we'd have you at the front. And that stopped in an instant. And ever since the last 25 years

we've had, as I said, armoured flight deck doors and probably a completely different take on..

And a much smaller connection with the passengers as well, for you, on a kind of emotional level, almost

Yeah, very much so. And I think just watching, because I actually brought my youngest daughter

back from hospital that morning. Oh, my goodness. We literally just walked in, sat down to the television while we were attempting to breastfeed

And that was what came on the news. And we just sat there in shock for the next sort of five hours watching what was going on

But subsequent to that, I was probably one of the first people flying just after it started again

And I flew back over the wreckage with the smoke coming out of it in New York

No way. Washington or something. And then about a week after that, I actually did a New York trip

and I actually walked down to Ground Zero and stood and looked at what was left of the facade and stuff at the time

So the whole thing was very personal. Yes. And subsequently, the details that we found out

about how the flights and the hijackings went down made the whole thing very real for us as flight crew, I think

I mean, we've heard from people who felt fearful of flying and they were passengers

I mean, you presumably, the first couple of times you got back in the cockpit, every creek and, you know, every trolley banging against the door or something like that

I don't want to sound crass. Yeah, no, I mean, the immediate effect was that we had to have somebody else in a flight

there because if one of us wanted to go to the loo, we had to have somebody in to lock

and unlock the door. Wow. But at that point, you know, we just had to go. We didn't even have cameras

So, subject to that, we've now got access cameras and stuff to get on the flight there

but it was just a sort of a knee-jerk reaction. How do we try and keep everybody safe in the immediate aftermath

Which is a big part of the pilot's responsibility as well. Of course, yes, that's our main responsibility

Yeah, yeah, of course it is. Everything we do is aimed towards that. And immediately after the event

it was a sort of a real knee-jerk. Well, how do we do that? but given what's changed, how do we change our procedures

so that people aren't allowed into the flight deck? And, you know, the flight deck wasn't really designed for that at that point

so it was quite sobering, I have to say. Something struck me, and it's never struck me before

while you were speaking. And I want to choose my words carefully

because this is incredibly delicate, but, I mean, it's extraordinary that nobody had identified that threat, right

I mean, like you just said, nobody had ever really thought that the hijackers would know how to fly a plane

No, I agree. No, absolutely. I mean, it's just one of those pivot points in life, isn't it, where everything changes in a split second

And prior to that, our thought processes didn't actually even take into account the fact that the hijackers more than jump in and fly the airplane

because prior to that, they'd always been, well, not well organised in that respect

but this was anything but. I mean, it took months of planning. Yes, exactly

I mean, and because somebody somewhere just spotted this opportunity that obviously should have been spotted by the people on your side of the aviation industry

at some point previously, which isn't to blame anybody or to criticise anybody

because it was as if it had just never occurred to anybody

No, I mean, the whole day, really, with the benefit of hindsight, there's lots of things that various people should have done in groups

and with the benefit of hindsight, we'd all be multi-billionaires, wouldn't we? Maybe, something like that

Or playing for killing Mr. Harriers tonight against Hartlepool. Mate, you know, we've all got different dreams

You take care. When are you next in the air? Tomorrow. Well, God bless you, and stay safe. Thank you, man

It's 11.17. James O'Brien on LBC It is 11.18 The American national psyche

I think that's the phrase that works best I don't know how that changed because I'm not American

but if you are perhaps you can tell me how much of the madness that has followed

the events of September the 11th 2001 would perhaps have not followed

had that never happened or had it as a last caller the pilot just suggested

or had it actually been somehow nipped in the bud or curtailed. You think about the Pentagon plane, don't you

and the way that the passengers... Sorry, you think about the fourth plane, rather

the one that was presumably heading for the White House or the Capitol building

Passengers refusing to... What would the word be? Co-operate. And, of course, the passengers on the planes

that did crash into buildings wouldn't have known what was intended, but that was a different response

It crashed into an empty field in Pennsylvania killing everybody on board because

I guess, you know, some people on board that plane decided that they were

going to go down fighting. Literally. Good Lord. Literally. Nineteen minutes after eleven. And then, of course, how many years

later was it that the president's if you like personal ragtag militia decided to attack the capital themselves

Never think about that. Terrorists targeting the capital. in 2001. Donald Trump

fans targeting it a couple of decades later. I hadn't spotted that

Nick's in Middlesbrough. Nick, what would you like to say? Well, morning James. First time caller to you, but

avid listener. Thank you. Welcome. So the World Trade Centre brings three things together for me. I was there

just a couple of weeks before it happened in a past life and I remember being stood in a restaurant

in the world at the top and actually just musing to myself thinking, could you

imagine if for any reason you were you fell out of this building or this building

And I remember thinking... You're like me. I have thoughts like that when I'm in friends

I don't know that everybody does. I was at the top thinking, could you imagine looking at the little ant-like behaviour

and you'd think, you're so high up. And you'd see planes go by

because Michael, who was the chef there, who I spoke to yesterday, was telling me that you'd effectively see planes go by almost

Yes, and you'd think, this is so high, your brain almost can't comprehend it. And then on the day it happened

I was an on-duty sergeant in the police up in Cleveland. And when the first one struck, everyone thought it was an accident

Everyone was gathered around the telly. When the second one struck, the mooch, and everybody immediately assumed that World War III was imminent

Really? And we all got the... The boss at the time brought everybody in and said

right, everyone stay here. There's real potential nuclear action. We're doing things in the background, but everybody stay at work

And we stayed at work for a huge period of time. and the next two or three days

ultra suspicion, ultra everything. The world changed so much. And then today, I have two children who are nine and 11

so I've become an older father. And I've educated them about this. Today, because it's anniversary

I've told them about it today for the first time. So I've had to bring them into the real world

and unfortunately tell them, and they're saying sort of, well, why did they crash into the tamers

What did they do that for? What did you say? What did you say

I said, well, they're terrorists. They were people who don't agree with where the Western world is

And they're trying to change that with horrifically spectacular things that turn us against each other

And so, and then I told them about Flight 93, and that was moving

Even 25 years later, I sent them. These people on the plane knew that they were going to die

And they didn't want that plane to crash into somewhere else. And they took them on

and I've got goose pimples even recount it and then it was first of the morning

they were just sort of looking at me with their mouths open

to say, but why why did they want to do that? It's really hard to put into words

for young children I think you did a good job by the sounds of it

Thank you, and I've gone to school no doubt they'll be speaking about it at school

I expect they will, or they might not I don't actually know whether they are I expect they will, and that is really

I mean, two elements of who you are. Three, really. The person who was there a couple of weeks before

the parent, and then the police officer. Because we touched on this with the lad

who was in South Korea at the time, and the idea that the people who were in charge

had no clue. They had no clue it was going to happen

and of course, I mean, the intelligence failure, when you think about it, is almost unbelievable

Absolutely. And then they had no clue what was going to happen next

as in there could be 10,000 al-Qaeda-sponsored jihadis about to launch attacks everywhere from Cleveland to Copenhagen. Exactly

About five years ago, we went back, my wife and I went to the World Trade Center

It was three o'clock in the morning, it was raining, but there was nobody else there. And we had five minutes of just her and I at the memorial

in the drizzling rain in the middle of the night And the enormity of that moment the fact that it was just her and I there a place that was the most talked about most historically significant place in the world probably

But it was massive. We were just overall, we were just thinking, so the World Trade Centre's got a lot of significance for me for a lot of reasons

so today's quite a poignant day. And I'll be interested to see what the kids think about that when they come home

if they've got round two of questions about, well, what about them? Because that's probably coming

but the world has changed. Well, it has, and I mean, there is an underlying acceptance

in today's programme, in the conversations that we're having and the conversations that I've had with everybody today

including, of course, Mark Riley, who was covering it on the ground in New York, the sense that, in a way

they got what they wanted, Nick. They got the terrorist. They absolutely did. Spectacularly so

The polarisation of people, the suspicion, the finger pointing, anyone who looks like the people in the plane

everything changed that day and I probably I don't see how that's ever going to be

the genie's out the bottle I think and I can't I struggle with the way of

other than with years and decades of peacefulness but I can't I feel very pessimistic about that

which is a shame because I'm not a pessimist but I can't see the way back

I didn't really examine that until you said it somehow I am still of the view

that we can get the genie back in the bottle it probably makes me... I'm glad you say that

I'm glad you say that. Partly because I'm Irish. And a few messages today pointing out..

I mean, one person very sweetly suggesting that when the IRA were blowing up people on the main..

in Britain and in Northern Ireland, then all Irish people didn't get the blame

for what the IRA was doing on the mainland. And I'm like, yeah, we did, mate

I mean, I got called a terrorist when I was 12. And we put that back in the bottle

but it doesn't have the ethnic dimension so it is a slightly different beast, isn't it

It doesn't have the skin colour dimension but you be the pessimist, I'll be the optimist

I'm happy with that for now. You take care and great parenting if you'd allow me to say that as well

because these are interesting, their ages as well because these are grim lessons, aren't they

I don't call it the loss of innocence or whatever you want to call it but you need to know the nature of the world

and that's a family in Middlesbrough. Lots of families up and down this country getting in touch with me to tell me about what changed that day

This is from Oliver right at the top of the show. I was 12. I was in year 8. That day after, September the 12th, I still remember two lads in my science class, same age as me

saying that they can't wait for all the P-word bashing to start. They're just repeating stuff they've heard at home, of course, but it doesn't make it any less arresting

they were also planning to go to the local corner shop at break time and shout world trade center

the man who ran the corner shop was a hindu 26 after 11 is the time after the news at 11 30 i'll

play you my conversation yesterday with the executive chef at the restaurant that nick in

was visiting two weeks before the uh the plane was flown into it it's uh it's a it's a well i mean

And every conversation today has been worth listening to. And that one will be no different

Etna's in Caversham. Etna, what would you like to say? Oh, hi, James. Hello

I was cabin crew up till 2000. And then I gave up and I had two little babies on the day it happened

One just under two and one two months. Okay. But my husband was still cabin crew

And we were here just, the baby's asleep, playing with the toddler

the phone rang and it was one of his friends and he said

after where he was I said oh he's here, he's on his days off

and he said well thank God for that but put on the TV so we put it on

and we see the second plane going in to the tower and

we both looked at each other and the first thing we said was the waiters and

waitresses because two years previously we had got married in City Hall

in New York and we went for our wedding lunch in the Windows on the World

We just wanted a quiet affair. We had a party back at home

but this is what we wanted to do. We'd been flown regularly to New York

I particularly loved it. It's one of my favourite places I've ever been

And I said to him, shall we just go and do it in City Hall

and go to the Windows on the World. A very good friend of ours was on a night stop

and she popped along to be our witness and then off we went for lunch

and I have to say it was a Wednesday so it was actually really quiet

so the attention we got was second to none and the staff couldn't have been lovelier

and they took photos for us and I'm not just talking a quick photo between courses

they were like, one guy was like we'd obviously got married, I was in, not in a wedding

dress but like a very nicely dressed and i had a kind of cream matching coat and dress and i had

beautiful yellow roses and this this particular waiter was no you must arrange the roses this way

make them really artistic cross your hands show your rings it was just beautiful we got chatting

to them a lot of them were eastern european and we just said are they alive oh my god did they jump

56 nationalities on that staff would you believe that? I only found that out yesterday

56 different nationalities oh gosh yeah unbelievable just the loveliest loveliest people

and you know I think every year, I always think every year

were they there did they grow old did they have children, did they have grandchildren

it really does move me every single anniversary of course it does

And actually, I think you're going to find the conversation that I'll play out after the news very interesting because we talk about those children and those grandchildren and the money that was raised to look after them, the ones whose parents didn't survive that day in the restaurant where you had your wedding meal

the staff who died in the work that has been done subsequently

culminating, and it's a bit of a spoiler alert, this culminating in two of the children

the last two set to graduate from college this year paid for by the charity that was set up

by the staff and the owner of that restaurant in the immediate aftermath of this

it's an incredible story but I mean, I thought it was incredible you're going to find it, absolutely

riveting, aren't you? I will. I will indeed. No, it was such a special day

James, just to say quickly, we've been back since. We took our children years later and we showed them

how we got married and we walked across and told, you know, to obviously ground zero

and told them, look up there, it was there. That's where we

had our celebration. And yeah, so I just wanted to share that with you. I'm so glad that you could

Thanks for listening. Right, my pleasure. I'll always listen. I might interrupt a bit more

next time you ring in, but I always listen Thank you Thank you It 11 Matt Hewitt has your headlines James O on LBC It is 11 You are listening to James O on LBC

where the 25th anniversary of the September, the 11th terrorist attacks continues to dominate our coverage today

And, I mean, you know, I say this every day, but some days it's even truer than others, isn't it

The people ringing in, frankly, extraordinary. and we've also gone to the rare trouble on this program

of pre-recording a conversation with somebody intimately involved with events of that day that you will also hear

although not immediately because there's a couple more calls I want to get on air before we listen to that conversation

with Michael Lomenarco. Stuart, for example, is in Westminster. Stuart, what made you pick up the phone

I'm a journalist. I was a journalist back then. I'm a cameraman for Channel 4 News now

But back then I was away for three months and it was the most intense story I've ever covered

I ended up traveling into Kabul with the Northern Alliance the day it was liberated

So the journey took me all the way there. But almost as importantly is what happened the week before for me, because you asked how the world changed

And the week before, exactly a week before September 11th, I was one of these London journalists flown into, parachuted into Northern Ireland to cover the troubles

There was the Holy School protest. Holy Cross. Holy Cross and primary school girls from the Catholic area, Nationalist area, being taken across the dividing line into a Loyalist area because their Catholic primary school just happened to be there at Holy Cross

and the violent scenes that ensued. And the morning I arrived, I arrived to see smouldering cars in the streets

and it was just a terrible scene. And then all the troops and police filled the streets

and then the expectations of these primary school girls, these little school girls, their parents lined up

to cross this separation line into the Loyalist area was quite something to see

And as they crossed through, all the bottles rained down stones and i was standing next to a group of policemen and a

blast bomb went off right in in amongst them and almost took the foot off one of those policemen

but that was exactly a week before and then the rest of that week was just intense it just it

never stopped the protests in the morning the riots in the night it just went on and on and

on the sunday i flew back ironically the sunday that general massoud was assassinated in afghanistan

and on the morning of September 11th, I then went out to do a job at Sangat refugee camp

and I ironically was talking to Afghan asylum seekers and asking them what life was like under the Taliban

and within an hour, I was on my way to Afghanistan. But I remember as I was driving to Charles de Gaulle

something hit me really strongly and that was, I just believed, I just witnessed the end of the troubles

Why? Because what would follow would then be called the war on terrorism

but I knew the response for America would be huge that it would define the decade

and as it happened two decades and more ahead and that the bandwidth

for covering the troubles for the attention to the troubles that had been consistent up to that point

would just melt away that in a way the troubles were over because people just weren't going to pay attention to it anymore

no one was going to put up with those hellish scenes in Northern Ireland the week before

with school girls being attacked on their way to school. The bandwidth was gone

And all the attention went over to what would then be called, days later

the War on Terror. And it did. You were right. You were right

And they did. They just melted away. They really did. They just melted away up until about, you know

just recently where it resurfaced a little bit. But that really intense period

because when I was covering that protest, the Good Friday Agreement was still in its infancy

it was still unstable and it felt like if one of those girls got you know got to be killed on that

way to school or seriously injured um could that tip it could that then explode the whole peace

agreement and we'd be back to full-blown troubles because it was so serious it reminded me of those

old black and white pictures from the american south during the 50s where marshals had to escort

children to school well it was exactly the same it was it was just horrendous attempted segregation

although on religious rather than ethnic grounds. And, yeah, I want to try and find the words, Stuart

It's as if it began to look a little bit piddling compared to what had happened in New York

You know, or pathetic, pathetic. Well, New York lost almost 3,000 people in one day

Exactly. And that was approaching the total for the whole Troubles. Not to play numbers, but it just puts it into context

And it was in one day. And I remember driving down the autoroutes

I was then on my way to Charles de Gaulle, because obviously we were then as journalists trying to get to New York

Of course, we never did. We ended up going to the Middle East. But on my way there, I remember being a wave of dread coming over me

as I was driving because we heard it all on the radio. You know, I was on my way to Bloyne for a nice lunch

when the second plane hit, realizing then immediately that was an attack

span around in the road and started heading towards Charles de Gaulle. And when the third plane hit, as I joined the autoroute

I just thought, what the hell is going on? we all did what the hell is going on when is this ever going to end you know that's three

attacks now and i really worried what the new president bush might do i wasn't entirely sure

perhaps he was up to it and i was i was starting to worry what america's response would be would

he have a knee-jerk response potentially would he would he break that convention of not using you

know say nukes from the second world war you know because this was so i knew america would be so

wounded by this you know that those were the shining pillars of the american dream everyone

knew them i'd stood there as a tourist and just open mouth that these incredible monoliths they

were amazing they were beautiful and that was the point wasn't it if they can be breached then

absolutely anything can be breached and all on live tv yeah tumbling down you know it's like an

echo of a scream around the world as they started falling i mean i didn't see the pictures until my

hotel room about two in the morning that night and i remember i just wanted to cry but i didn't

because i had to conserve my energy i had to get i had to then find out what was happening next and

the next day i found myself in beirut um tasked by my news desk to go and find some terrorists and

ask them what they thought about president bush prescribing more of their organizations and coming

after them um which we actually did because we ended up with islamic jihad in a refugee camp and

they were all very nice and very welcoming and we chatted to them and they didn't agree with it at

all um you know that was the journey for me you've galloped over an awful lot of ground there

but i mean some of the things that you've mentioned have extraordinary resonances today

because the people um outside the school um attacking the school girls will almost certainly

be the same people that launched the pogroms against um foreigners or refugees in in northern

Ireland earlier this year and most people listening probably won't know about the man

you referenced at the beginning who was assassinated I think on the 9th of September Yeah it was the 9th And who was you know an Afghan general a minister of defence even who was opposed to the Taliban and had warned

Another one of those little crossroads in history who'd warned, I think, in the European Parliament or somewhere like that

He had, just months before. Go on, you tell me. Yeah, just see, he went to the European Parliament and made an address

and he didn't warn. He didn't know the nature of the attack, but he did know that there was an attack planned

and he warned the Americans through back channels as well. So he did give a warning but couldn't give the nature of it

But he wasn't backed, you know, he wasn't backed. He was the only bit left in Afghanistan that hadn't been overrun

And, you know, the irony is I ended up at his graveside. I had to evacuate the reporter I was with because he got malaria

and I travelled past his village where he was buried and I remember one of the Northern Alliance soldiers saying

we want you to sign the book of condolence. And I must have been one of the very first people there

and I thought, well, I'm going to have to say something. So I just said, I hope you and your people find peace

Oh, mate. But after what, I then spent, what, the next almost two decades

you know, covering Afghanistan and Iraq directly there. Here's a weird thing

And now we're back to square one, 20 years of involvement. almost to the day

And the Taliban are back. It's just extraordinary. It really is. And as we've been saying all morning

the links can never be established beyond all reasonable doubt, but they're pretty flipping obvious

The more you look at it and the more you think about it. Here's something, give you some food for thought

because you've given us plenty. This is from Brenda. It says, your current caller is spot on

She's in Belfast. The World's Press were there, were here to cover those awful days for the Holy Cross girls

and they all literally left overnight. And that made the whole protest melt away

But don't forget that the trauma of those five-year-olds will linger to this day

So, I mean, there's a real chicken and egg scenario there. If we're not there to cover it, do they continue doing it

Yeah, I think it affected everyone on those days. You know, I mean, the worst things you ever see doing what I do

is children in distress or, you know, being killed or whatever. And I think that those few days there just stayed with everyone that was there

It was just a terrible scene. But I just felt that it was over

For people listening, I'll ask this question on their behalf. Because you're clearly a human being possessed of compassion

and great emotional literacy. You can tell that just from what we've heard in the last five minutes

When you have to point the camera at the suffering, what's that like

Because, I mean, you weren't filming the plane going into the World Trade Center

but, you know, if the dice had rolled differently, you could have been. What's that like

It is difficult. Obviously, it's difficult. Sometimes, you know, you look down the lens

and you want to cry, but you don't. And I won't allow myself to because there's two things, I think

and that have kept me sort of sane all these years. One is, it's not happening to me, it's happening to them

And if I want to do the best for them, these people in dire straits, wherever they be, in Afghanistan or Iraq or Northern Ireland

the best thing I can do is get the story out, get the pictures out

and make them as powerful as possible to break down that distance between the streets of Northern Ireland and your living room in Surrey

or wherever it happens to be or, you know, in Kandahar or London

is to be empathetic. So it can be a very difficult job

as a reporter and a cameraman because to do a very good job

you have to surf that line. You can't be cut off. You've got to allow yourself to be effective a bit

and look for those pictures that tell that story. But yeah, that's what's protected me

It's kind of like if I want to help these people, I haven't got the luxury to cry

I haven't got the luxury to go to bits. I've got to do my job. I've got to get these pictures out

You know, I filmed a little boy who was killed by a sniper in Misrata during the fall of Gaddafi

And the medical staff there worked on him for half an hour

And, you know, he didn't make it. And he was just a little boy, you know. And I remember we were shelled that night where I was

And, you know, all the windows were flexing with the shockwaves. and I was feeding this material

this package we'd done for Channel 4 News that night on a V-GAN and it was just pinging over

but I felt I had to sit by the windows. I had to make sure that boy made it to London

because I knew his image would be louder than those bombs. Thank you, Stuart

Incredible call. 11.46 is the time. Stay safe, please. James O'Brien on LBC

It is 10 to 12. This is extraordinary from... I'll read it before, just in case it says at the end

don't read out my name. I haven't read it to the bottom. I was head of year in a London comprehensive, which was very multicultural and had won an award

for its multiculturalism in comprehensive schools in London. On Monday mornings before school, I would try to have..

I used to have hot chocolate ready for students who wanted to come in and tell me how their weekend had been

because quite often I would have black or mixed race boys who'd been stopped and searched a couple of times

and they would be really angry, and we would have a bit of a rant about it together, and once they'd got it off their chest

they were ready for school. After September the 11th, within maybe two weeks

I started to have a huge number of Asian boys coming in who were really angry

Some of them were Muslim, some of them Hindu, because the police couldn't tell the difference

but they were suddenly being quite regularly stopped and searched. I was also a French teacher

and we always used to do a display for the start of the year for open evening with new students

in year seven would write their name and their age and their nationality in French with a little

photograph. Prior to September the 11th, nobody ever asked me for anything other than English or

British, but I remember the following year because we always used to do it in September

Children were asking me how to say Pakistani or Syrian or Somali in French. It was apparent that

in the intervening year, their identification as being British had become confused and they didn't

feel as British as they had in previous years when exactly the same kinds of children had done

It was very sad. We didn't have any problems of this kind at my school because we were so

multi-ethnic, but a lot of the boys would get abused on the way home and get called terrorists

which is about a perfect description, as you will find, of how the terrorists in the context of the

United Kingdom and multiculturalism got exactly what they wanted. And I think there is no more

appropriate day upon which to mark that than this one, actually. But we need to also remember what

prompted these reactions and these responses. And some of the stuff that has stuck in many

many minds is probably worth revisiting. That shock, that visceral moment when the unthinkable

became the observable. Just in the context of an eyewitness to CBS News on the phone about what she had seen

with regard to the first plane hitting the tower when this happened

I understand Teresa Renault is with us right now. Ms. Renault, good morning

Good morning, how are you? This is Bryant Gumbel. I'm down on 59th and 5th. Where are you

I am in Chelsea and we are at 8th and 16th. We are the tallest building in the area and my window faces south

So it looks directly onto the World Trade Center. And I would say, you know, approximately 10 minutes ago, there was a major explosion from probably, it looks like about the 80th floor

It looks like it's affected probably four to eight floors. Major flames are coming out of the, let's see, the north side and also the east side of the building. Yes

And it was a very loud explosion followed by flames. and it looks like the building is still on fire on the inside

Which building are we talking about, the one that's westernmost? Let's see. Yes, sir

Did you hear the explosion from your position? Yes, we did. As a matter of fact, we heard it

because I was just standing there pretty much looking out the window. I didn't see what caused it or if there was an impact

So you have no idea right now? Oh, there's another one. Another plane just hit

Oh, my God. Another plane has just hit another building. It flew right into the middle of it

Explosion. My God, it's right in the middle of the building. This one into the East Tower

Yes. Yes. Right in the middle of the building. And right now, that, yes, that would definitely look like it was on purpose

You saw a plane? Yes, I just saw a plane go into the building

Why do you say that was definitely on purpose? Because it just flew straight into it

It looks like it's about, I would say, 15 floors lower than the first building

And there's now flames coming out of that building as well. They're both completely on fire

What an extraordinary young woman. She wasn't her job. It was just there

But that still sends shivers down your spine, doesn't it, 25 years later

And you probably, whether you can remember it or not, heard that before. uh absolute shock and that that immediate vanishing of of i don't know if it's hope

that it was an accident or that it was a tragedy or that it was a disaster and not an act of

human horror not not an act of terrorism not an act of mass murder and that that's why i think she

went immediately for that for that observation because they'd all be thinking and as mark riley

told us earlier there'd been a plane accident earlier um that month the previous week

albeit on a much smaller scale. So you're thinking, crikey, you know

these planes aren't safe or these things can happen. And then that's two? No

No way. Is that an accident or a coincidence? This is an attack upon New York City

an attack upon the United States of America, an attack upon the free world

And then I'm back to Nick in Middlesbrough's call about talking with his 9-year-old and his 11-year-old today

about what happened and the difficulty of answering why. He's not the first to do that, by the way

This also happened shortly after the events that you've just heard described in that previous clip

This happened on ABC7. This is a horrific situation you're watching, ladies and gentlemen

If you are a child watching and you do not have a parent there, I don't know what to advise you

If you can understand this. It's hard for an adult to understand

Words cannot describe this. The north tower of the World Trade Center, the second 110-foot structure that marks the landmark

that is a landmark of New York and Manhattan, and indeed the United States, has just collapsed

And if you look at the timeline in which all this has taken place in such a short period of time

8.45 until now at 10.29. Nina Panetta, can you hear us? Are you on the line at all, Nina

Nina is just a few blocks from there. And we do not have her amidst the chaos

We have not heard from Joe Torres. This is just so tragic that it's sort of ridiculous to say, to talk through this

It is so horrific. I hadn't heard that before, that bit. but it was prompted by the comments that Nick made

a few moments, about half an hour ago on this programme about having a conversation today with his children

about what happened and what he thought they were likely to be talking about at school

And yet, even in the moment, you hear adults failing completely to know how to articulate to children what is going on

There's a real poignancy there, actually, a kind of sense of the whole broadcast becoming unanchored

by the profundity of the events. That's why I started with Herbert Morrison, albeit that I managed to misname him

Those moments, from a broadcaster's point of view, are extraordinary. And I'm mentioning that because Stuart did such an incredible job of describing to us his experiences as a journalist in a variety of scenarios

but all within the context of what happened that day and what it changed

but oh the humanity is pretty much what those ABC7 journalists were struggling to say

Just looking at the screen like Herbert Morrison did when the Hindenburg caught fire

and simply saying oh the humanity. Oh the humanity. I don't know how even now you'd explain it to children

but I do know that there's a little bit more there for you to cogitate upon

as you turn your attention to the questions that we've been asking all day

chiefly what has changed 03456060973 either for you or for the world

I haven't and I don't want this to sound miserable but I haven't

had as many calls as I would have liked on the question of the American

national psyche what it did to that sense of being the most powerful and important people

on the planet and to a degree invulnerable in a country impregnable. I don't know, maybe you've never thought about it before, but if you have

or if you've thought about it today, is that fair? Is that really significant? Does that explain a

lot of what has happened in the intervening years? And also, the reason why you remember it in the

way that you do. It is three minutes after 12. Listen to this. I used to live in the USA. I

witnessed 9-11 firsthand I was stuck in traffic in New Jersey and just across the bay in front of me

I saw the whole thing happen in front of my eyes several of my ex-wife's friends died that day

everything changed that day it was one of the most harrowing and tragic experiences of my life I don make a habit of talking about it I still cannot watch any documentaries or TV programs on the matter

I still find it too raw and too upsetting. Every year I light a candle

I still can't talk about it without being overwhelmed by sadness and emotion

for those who did not survive and those who live with life-changing injuries

Even listening to your program today has me in tears. I cannot express in mere words the horror that I witnessed and the tragedy that unfolded afterwards

Thank you for trying, Chris. You have expressed at least part of what you're feeling in words

And I'm very grateful to you for doing so. But that image in my mind now of your car windscreen almost being like a TV screen

like watching it in that box that we're all so familiar with

that glass rectangle, watching it all unfold in that moment. That is absolutely..

I can see why that has hit you so hard and still hits so deeply

because something about that image I've now got in my mind of it all happening in front of you

just makes it feel even more unprocessable. Five minutes after 12 is the time

Steve's in Islington. Steve, what made you pick up the phone? Oh, hi, James

Yeah, I went back to New York the April after it happened

A friend of mine, she got murdered, would you believe it? And I got back to her funeral

But I used to be a carriage driver in Central Park. Well, the horses, the horse and carriage

How did a lad from Islington end up doing that? Well, it's the Irish connection, James

Okie dokie, all good. Well, speaking of the Irish connection, I accidentally used the word mainland a minute ago

so I'd like to completely retract that for the record before anyone confiscates my passport

Carry on, Steve. Yeah, so when I went back, I went back to the stables where we have the carriages

and a block away was a fire station where I used to know all the firemen in there

We used to drink together in the local pub or the local bar, and they were all gone

They were all gone, every one of them. There was a plaque up there for him. But I was watching it at the time..

You mean gone, gone, gone? All gone. All of them. Good God. I just don't want to gloss over that too quickly

in case people weren't paying full attention. So the men and women that would once have populated the bar

were entirely wiped out. It was a small fire station there. Every one of them was gone

And I used to know them and drink, drink with them only months previous to that. Yeah

Yeah, but at the time I was watching it with my brother who's in Madison Square Gardens

He was on the roof. He's a Zamboni driver for New York Rangers. And I told him to get the hell out because Penn Station's right next to it

And he said he can't because there's a contingency plan, which he didn't know about, that they were going to use the ice as a mortuary

So he was sent down to make the ice or any bodies that would appear

But obviously there were no bodies. No. Yeah, but there you go

And the innocence in New York, I noticed, it was gone. It was gone

What do you mean by that? It had this... Because being a carriage driver, you used to meet people there

especially at night, who were from New York. And they had this thing that they were untouchable

and it was like Rome, probably, in its day. Yeah, I like that

Not everybody was enjoying themselves. And suddenly, when I went back, it was the darkness

There was a real dullness around. And where you would see the Twin Towers down in the village

in the skyline. It was gone. It was so strange to see it missing

Yeah, I mean, you're the opposite of me, aren't you? It's in your bones, this city, and so that connection is beyond personal

It's part of who you are, our experiences makers, and drinking in that bar, having that view sort of in your retina

in your internal memory, and then it's all gone. The people are gone, the buildings are gone, the view is gone

That's an act of violence beyond even the violence of the terrorists

Yeah, indeed. Indeed, yeah. It's absolutely shocking. I'd never thought of that. 343 firefighters in total, and that's just on the day

God knows how many died subsequently from what they'd breathed in or what they'd experienced in the attempts to rescue people

A really good friend, Oriel Palmer, he was this fire chief, and he gets mentioned in books

He was very brave, but he was a man we used to drink with and had great crack with

And he died, did he, that day? He died, yeah, with all his mates

Because they all acted with such extraordinary courage, didn't they? They're brilliant. They're unbelievable

The battalion chief of the New York City Fire Department trying to rescue civilians trapped inside when he died

Got to the 78th floor of the tower. I mean, jeez, what a man, Steve

I know. That's the floor the plane hit, and your mate got there. He got to that floor

Everyone's getting out, and they're going the opposite way, walking up with all that equipment. Unbelievable fitness as well

You can say that again. Yeah. And then at the garden, they had a big memorial day

and my brother reckons that all the celebrities were there were so humble

Everyone was for the firefighters and all the policemen. It was the first time

First time for everything, eh? Of course they were humble Well there you go

Steve that's an incredible thing that you've shared We'll have to wait for another day

For me to find out more about how your brother Ended up driving the Zamboni at Madison Square Gardens

And you ended up driving a horse and carriage Around Central Park Yeah

Stay safe Steve Thank you 1209 is the time Flipping heck The stuff that gets you

And you never know it's going to happen but I thought I'd just look up that guy that Steve mentioned

Oreo Palmer, and I've got a vague memory of elements of this story

but to know him, to have sat alongside him at a New York bar

and he got to the 76th floor. I can't quite get my head around that even now

Dilara is in Austin, Texas. Dilara, what would you like to say? James I'm a long time listener a first time caller well welcome and thank you I I I'm still

sort of shuddering at listening to all the the stories and the callers um my husband and I

actually met in um New York we lived and very close to the World Trade Center and um on 9-11

we were living in Phoenix, Arizona, and just living an ordinary life as Americans

who happened to be of brown skin, Pakistani descent. But our lives changed irrevocably

on that day because our country was attacked on 9-11. But ever since then, I feel we've been under

attack as Muslims because it so quickly the conversation went from you know who attacked us it was never really why did they attack us It just suddenly instead of Al or Saudis it became all Muslims were suspect And it hit very close to

home for us because my son, a few weeks after 9-11, he was 10, he said, Mom, they wouldn't

my friends in school today at lunch, they wouldn't let me play soccer with them. And he said

Normally they don't let me play because I'm not very good. Today they said, you might be in the Taliban

And he said, I'm not in the Taliban. And they kept saying, but you might be

How do you know you're not? And he said to me, Mom, September 10th, I went to sleep in American

September 11th, I woke up a Muslim. That's heartbreaking. They both, my son and daughter, experienced incidents of Islamophobia

And to the point that five years later, we were motivated to write a book just to explain what the average moderate Muslim thinks

And we wrote the American Muslim Teenagers Handbook. And we didn't, you know, I grew up in America

This country, we didn't talk about religion. You know, we talked about our national pride, but ever since 9-11, I do feel that religion has come to the forefront in this country

And it is otherized. It's polarized. We're seeing it, you know, playing out

The ripples of it are all over the world. I think I read a study by Brown University, their center of war

It said four million lives have been lost due to this war on terror

You know, Afghanistan, Syria, Lebanon, Libya. I mean, where do we end

It's just so sad. I don't recognize this country that I live in that I'm proud of

but it's been frightening times. You're almost told by some people in public life

never mind in your personal life, that you have no business being proud of this country

It's an extraordinary thing to move from having your religion be one of the least important things about you in the eyes of your neighbors to it being the most important thing about you

Yes, yes. It's been very sad to see. And of course you and your son and your family didn't actually change at all

You were the same. You woke up on September the 12th, exactly the same people that had gone to bed on September the 10th

but in the eyes of the world, you'd changed beyond all recognition, or in the eyes of many people, you'd changed beyond all recognition

Yes, we became part of the Arizona interfaith movement. We proudly took part in all sorts of, you know

9-11 interfaith memorial services. But then after about five years of that

my husband and I turned and looked at each other and we said, you know what, we were not responsible for 9-11

it why do we feel this this perpetual need to apologize for 9-11 when we had nothing to do with

it and you could have been caught up in it you know if your lives had unfolded differently you

could have been on the part of the death toll or the injury list there's no way that they flew those

planes into those buildings with any intention of saving anybody or sparing anybody from their

murderous hatred. Yes, and we don't sort of position World War II

as a war of Christians versus Catholics. You know, we don't often speak

about conflicts, geopolitical conflicts in religious terms. No, well, I mean, even beyond that

beyond the religious side of it, we don't actually, we did for a while, but we

reached a point, and there may be some optimism here for you and other people, that

we don't conflate Nazism with German anymore in the way that we would have done

in the immediate aftermath of the war any more than we should conflate Islam or Islamic

with Islamist jihadists. But unfortunately, I mean, more so perhaps in the States

than here at the moment, Dilara, there are political movements afoot that are desperate to portray every Muslim as a threat

every Muslim as a potential member of the Taliban, just as those boys in that playground

were 25 years ago. Every Muslim is alien. And that's like, would there be ice today

without September the 11th? You know what? The TSA, the taking our shoes off

I mean, we have been questioned every time we travel. You know, I've been asked

when I was traveling from Phoenix to, you know, Vancouver, the airline agent said to me

you might need a visa. And I said, no, I don't need a visa to go to Canada

I'm an American citizen. And she said, no, you might need a visa to when you return to America

And I said, I have an American passport. I'm 100 percent sure I do not need a visa to return to America

And she said, well, ma'am, you know, you might. I'm warning you

And my husband was next to me and he wasn't traveling. But he said, would you be asking this question if my wife were blonde and blue eyed

And, you know, the gate agent got very upset and said, I've taken cultural awareness training

She thought, oh, my goodness. What has happened to this country? Well, it has happened to this country and continues to happen

I think that was probably the thing that surprised me most today is how much of what we're looking at

and the stuff that breaks our hearts, the hearts of people like you and me, is in some sense linking back

And it leaves you with that horrible. revelation or conclusion that, you know

these scumbags in many ways got what they wanted. I don't know who bears all the responsibility for that

but it isn't just them, is it? Thank you, Dilara. It's 12.17

James O'Brien on LBC. Minutes after 12. I'm going to read this

I don't read out all the messages like this that I get for reasons that are very obvious

I spend more than enough time tooting my own trumpet. but this speaks more to the people who've called in than it does to me, I think

It's from Mimi who says, I think today's show is one of the most moving you've ever done

or rather, quite rightly, your listeners have ever done. It's been difficult to listen to at times, but it has given me hope, James

These contributors give me hope. Oh, the humanity. Nineteen minutes after twelve is the time

Michael Lomonaco, a New York chef, and at the time that we are discussing today

the executive chef of Windows on the World, the restaurant at the very top of the North Tower

He was there, as I've told you a few times today, on that morning. He was also there in 1993 when there was a bombing at the World Trade Centre

that you will, it was a van attack, a bomb attack using a van that killed six people and injured about a thousand more

I just mention that because he references it in the course of this conversation

i've told you bits of his story and i only know them because i spoke to him yesterday so there's

no point me telling you again you're about to hear it for yourself um you'll you'll hear it

beginning with me thanking him for finding the time to speak to us yesterday september the 10th michael thank you so much for joining us today on what I mean is obviously for you a unique moment There are two elements to my first question really because

the fact that you were essentially on your way upstairs to the restaurant when you decided to

stop at an optician on the ground floor to get your glasses adjusted puts you in that

extraordinary position of having missed it by, I mean, a wafer of fate as it were. And then

of course, what happened subsequently. So I thought I'd start with a nice, easy question

How has it changed you? Well, that is a good question. Well, of course

you know, it changed my life from the minute all of this happened. But I think it gave me the resolve

to continue in the restaurant industry, to be, you know, as a chef

to continue really with a mission to honor the memory of my friends and colleagues

who perished on that day. And to do that in New York City

where I was born and where I've always worked. But, you know, the compassion that we feel for others

shouldn't just come at the loss of their lives. The compassion, the kindness that we show others

particularly in the workplace, a very high-pressure workplace like a restaurant, I think that we need to show people compassion

throughout our relationship with them. And I think that it just really focused me

on the individuals lost and the lives that we cherish. Can you take us back to that morning and the realization that something utterly

extraordinary was happening, something unfathomable really? Because I presume the brain goes into a sort of denial mode or something when the evidence starts reaching your eyes and ears

well you know us the majority of people were seeing this live on television all over the world

and those of us in the street had no idea what was happening now i was i was in the building

i was in the concourse level which is just below both towers there was a shopping center

So I was in that concourse level and I felt the building shake

But I had no I didn't have any idea what that could have been

And I you know, the subway, our subway, our metro ran really adjacent to the that whole lower level concourse level

And I thought that can't be the subway. And even when I got outside, the visual before me was of the fire engines right on the street

We had a firehouse that was directly across the street from the World Trade Center

And I saw the fire engine out. So I thought, OK, there's a fire. And then the sky was littered with paper

There was just like confetti floating down. So this is all very, you know, disconcerting, very confusing

That was my, those were my first images. And it was, it was really, it took, because of where I was physically, geographically

I was south of, south, I was south of building two, which, which was the second building to be hit

So I was south of building one and building two. So I had no idea of the impact where there were other people in the street who were north and could see what had happened

So I, you know, really had no idea. And it was minutes that had gone by before someone said a plane struck the building

Did you believe that? I couldn't believe it because, you know, I spent my my office was on the hundred and sixth floor and I saw planes, aircraft going by all the time

and it just didn't make sense to me because, you know, there were flight paths around there

because of an airport that was not too far away in New Jersey. So it just didn't make sense. None

of it made sense, James, until I heard the second plane coming in. And as I heard the sound

I looked up and saw the impact of the second plane, and then I knew exactly what was happening

I knew exactly that there was no accident. There was nothing accidental that had happened

but there was something quite deliberate and evil. And at that point, the scale of the imminent death toll became clear as well

I mean, you know that many, many people are not going to get out of that building alive. I don't think anyone ever imagined the buildings would collapse

Right. So when you see when you see the impact and the you know, when you see the damage to the building and you see the the the the fire, you know that there there will be there will be people who will be lost

But the idea that the buildings would collapse, I don't think it occurred to anyone until still to this day, people say things like that. But, you know, that they they have where I was in the concourse lever, they were very swift in evacuating us very swift

And, you know, really within 90 seconds, I was out of the building

So, you know, there were people coming out of the buildings from the lower floors for that period of time before the collapse

And do you remember the collapse or is it blurred with footage that you will have seen subsequently and replays

Or do you remember the physical, real, actual moment? Oh, I, you know, I was heading, after the first impact, I actually went to look for a phone to call my wife and to call the owner of the restaurant

And I did. I found a phone, street phones, pay phones. They don't even exist anymore

But at that time, there was still a few around. And I made those phone calls

So, you know, minutes are going by. And then I headed back to the buildings

I headed back to the World Trade Center campus. You know, in 1993 at the bombing, I had very clear images, memories of people coming out of the buildings and they were covered with soot

And I don't know why, but I was going back to the building to be able, you know, I had people who were working that morning

I knew there were people in the kitchens, in the restaurants. And I thought, you know, if I could help at the plaza level, if I could be of any help

But it was then that the second plane struck and I stayed

away from the immediate area of the World Trade Center. In other words, I was within a block, within a street

and I walked north so that I could see what happened to Tower One

And so I was there as there were, you've seen the images of so many people in the streets

So I was there and had a clear view of the first collapse

and at that point the police and uh you know really told every you know people started running

north from that collapse covered with with with the dust of of the collapse and and that was just

like a cloud of that's that it looked like smoke but it was the dust of the collapse was billowing

out at street level so everyone started to run i ran north but there is that unbearable image

of some people waving a white tablecloth from the window of your restaurant

from windows of the world. Did you see that yourself? Yeah, well, that was really

the reason I walked north was I wanted to see what had happened

You know, I wanted to see what had happened to Tower One, my tower, the North Tower

And I could look up and see that, you know, that impact zone

And above it, I could see, you know i could see the building the smoke the fire and it was there that i saw people

waving napkins you know it's it's it's you know this was a quarter this is quite a high altitude

but the tablecloths were the image that really stayed with me it was very clear in my in my

memory and they were your colleagues that were holding those tablecloths and and and yeah and

your guests as well 79 employees lost that day and 91 guests at windows of the world um 28 minutes

after 12 is the time i'm back in the studio now but that conversation as you probably worked out

for yourself with michael de monaco is only about halfway through i'll play you the second half of

it after the very latest news headlines um i also have a little clip of a conversation i had earlier

this week with francis fukuyama to play to you for fukuyama of course one of the greatest thinkers

of the last 50 years, best known, and we discussed this quite a lot, unfairly in many ways

for his theory about the end of history, which is misrepresented and misunderstood

including by me on this programme, various points in the past. So that's a great lesson as well

In the classic tradition of me being a not very good news-based journalist

I didn't think to ask him about September the 11th, which I absolutely should have done

And on a much, much lighter note, It has been revealed in the last few days that Amelia de Moldenburg of Chicken Shop Date is ending her Chicken Shop Date show

which I also managed to completely miss when I sat down with her for an episode of Full Disclosure about three weeks ago

So I just thought I'd mention that to you to bring a little bit of, I don't know, levity into a conversation that at times today has been almost unbearably poignant

Here's Amelia Cox with your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC. To my conversation from yesterday with Michael Domenaco, the New York chef, who was running the windows on the World Restaurant at the very top of the North Tower at the time of the September 11th terror attacks

and would indeed have been in the kitchen on that floor if he hadn't decided to pop into the optometrists

on the ground level, the mezzanine level of the building, on a whim that morning

And bizarrely, because Mark Reilly mentioned the mayoral primaries that were running or supposed to be scheduled for that day

and that was the reason why Michael Lomonaco got to work early

because he had been going to cast his vote and he had expected the queues to be longer

and they weren't, which meant he got to work early, which meant he popped into the optometrist

which means he didn't get into the elevator, which means he wasn't on that floor when that plane hit

But, of course, many, many of his colleagues and guests at the restaurant were

And Etna, who rang in earlier, because she'd had her wedding meal there the week previously

and had taken away extraordinarily warm feelings about the staff who worked in the restaurant

the serving staff, who looked after her and her party and came to the table

and I didn't know that was going to happen today. I didn't know when I spoke to Michael yesterday

as you're about to hear, about the people who worked in that restaurant

and what has been done subsequently to help the families who lost their loved ones that day

I didn't know Etna was going to ring in and reflect upon questions that I can now

well, Michael has now answered. I almost apologise in advance for this question

but I don't think the English language has a vocabulary to phrase it more sensitively or more intelligently

How do you process something like that? It took a long time

I mean, when you think about this, you know, you have to keep moving

I don't mean physically, but, you know, the next day we were trying to identify who was missing

We had no idea, you know, really. We gathered together through networking, through the telephone, you know, calling people on that very night

The next day there would be a meeting and there were 150 people who gathered in another restaurant in Midtown Manhattan to try to sort it out to see who was missing, you know, and who was working that day

But personally, because you're asking me a personal question, you know, I had two, in my living room, I had two towers of CDs, you know, compact discs at that time, music, my music collection

I could not look at those two towers. I could not look, I did not, and I'm a music lover, could not listen to music for a month

I was in mourning, but I was trying to keep myself together because I know that other people needed me, needed me to be there for them

And did you reflect much, either then or subsequently, on the near miss element of your own experience, on that fateful decision to pop into the opticians instead of hopping straight in the elevator and getting up to the restaurant

You know, I was always, I've always been a very early to the kitchen and work through the day and late at night leave

That was my schedule was, I was there at 8, 8.15 every day and leave at 10 or 11 at night

And what I had an appointment on that very day I had a 12 noon appointment They gave me an appointment the week prior Come at 12 noon and we take a look and see how we can fix your glass you know what we can do

And I got there a little bit earlier on that morning because we had an election day in New York on that day

It was primary day. It wasn't a final. It was a primary elections. And so I was early because people don't vote as much as they should

I voted and went to work and, you know, it just felt like I can take the care of this right now

And I walked in and that happenstance, that last, that just, instead of going straight to the elevator, making a right turn and going into this optometry shop, saved my life, changed my life and the lives of my family and everybody that I was friends

it's it's um it was lucky it was just a lucky decision a lot of people have different kind of

point of view but it was lucky and i think that's what helped me get up the next day and say i need

to stand up for somebody else i need to be able to be there for them which which brings us yeah

to the windows of hope fund that you're so heavily involved in tell tell my listeners what that is and

what you do? So, you know, the restaurant business is a tough business for so many people

and it's an entry-level industry. You know, there are so many people in the lower economic tier who

are working in different levels of the restaurant business as porters or dishwashers or waiters and

cooks are not highly paid. And we, a small group of us, two other chefs, the owner of the restaurant

a manager we were three days later we sat and talked about we needed to do something for those

families the food service workers the hospitality workers those families who were left behind

without their uh you know without without they were left behind without the person who was

earning the living in the family or or at least contributing it was it was just terribly

distressing. The restaurant world so often comes together to have fundraisers and charitable

organizations oftentimes lean on us because the restaurant is at the heart of a community

So we created within a week a charitable organization. It was registered with the

government as a charitable organization, a 501c3. That's what we call it here

And Windows of Hope Family Relief Fund was meant to, what could we do for the families

What were the three most important things? Well, emergency aid, emergency funds, health insurance, which is a very American problem

and education for the children. What are they there for? So many of them had children that they've left behind

They were there to send their kids to school. And we gathered people from the industry, the restaurant industry in New York

And within a week, we had 75 people at a meeting. And this is where it comes to you, because, you know, there were

Once we started talking about this, the world of food got behind us

Restaurants in Great Britain, in Switzerland, in Italy, in Japan, in Latin America, around the world, began to raise money for our food service worker family

And we raised nearly $25 million over the next two years. and we had 252 family members, 150 families

There were 102 food service workers who were lost on that day

And we were able to help them in the immediate need. And then over the last 20 years, it's been a scholarship fund

And it's helped the families who wanted to send, to go back to

The spouses went back to school to kind of re-educate themselves. And so it was family members and children

And until today, the last two are in graduate school today who are finishing up in the next 12 months their graduate education

So, you know, we were able to do this. And that was the most fulfilling aspect was being able to help the families and stay, you know, stay part of their lives, that their Windows family was still connected to them

That was my that was my next question, in a way. You've kind of answered it. How much you were able to to witness the difference that the charity's money made. You can actually see the results, the benefits that these people have enjoyed

There's a marvelous book that was written about five years ago by a writer by the name of Tom Roston

And he wrote a book about windows, about the history. It's called The Most Spectacular Restaurant in the World

And now CNN has produced a film called Top of the World

and top of the world is a short documentary about the history of the restaurant from the very opening

in 1976 and that year 25 years ago would have been our 25th anniversary and that restaurant

would be 50 years old today and you know the people who work there 50 years ago still are

attached to each other in a way because it was such a special experience. And we, in my time there

in 1997, until the end of 2001, until the end, until that tragic day, we were had 450 people

working there. And they came from all over the world. We had people, we had 65 different languages

that were spoken there. It was an amazing experience. And I think there was such a connective

fiber that has stayed strong because it was a unique restaurant at a unique time that ended

in such a tragic way that bonded us. Finally, Michael, I'm speaking to you on Thursday. My

listeners will hear this conversation on Friday. So I'll ask you, if I may

what you will be doing tomorrow. so for me um 9 11 is a sacred day uh so uh i spend time in prayer and meditation not to sound too

you know but i really spend time alone and it's quiet time uh there are you know i know i know

colleagues who are having a reunion or having a chance to meet together and i know that they will

weep together but for me it's time to be alone and I take it as a very solemn day

the only the families of the victims can go to the memorial ceremony and I always spend time at the memorial at watching viewing this on television But actually tomorrow unlike any other year

I have an interview, a television interview here. But the interviews are important, the opportunity to talk to you

because now you know people that I've known. Now you think of my Windows colleagues

You think of the people who worked in the restaurant. And there were, you know, there were nearly 100 civilians who were there for a private event that day. And quite a few of them were from Great Britain. So I think of them as well, because Great Britain was very, very important to New York City in the aftermath of this

you sent firefighters you sent you've sent police and they spent a period of time here

supporting our fire and police departments so we have a great kinship between New York and London

Michael you honor you honor the memory of your colleagues and and of your guests and of course

of of everybody who died on that day and I'm very grateful to you for finding some time to talk to

was michael lomonaco thank you thank you for having me james james o'brien on lbc 47 um back

to the phones i think milton has been waiting for a while in long island in new york milton what made

you pick up the phone good morning james so i have a very kind of deeply personal story about 9-11

with a somewhat of an interesting twist to the end of it so i moved to the states six weeks before

9-11 into my then fiance's apartment that was about 400 yards from seven world trade on greenwich

street so we were the closest apartment building to new york um i'd gone back to london a week

beforehand just to wrap up my flat in the uk and bring some stuff back and we were getting married

uh actually in the uk about six weeks um at the end of october of 2001. anyway so i was on a plane

on 9-11 flying back from London and about an hour into the flight the airplane did a 180

and headed back to the UK and the pilot came on the intercom and said ladies and gentlemen

this year kept him speaking I don't know why and I promise you I don't know why but the whole of

US airspace has just been closed and we're heading back to the UK so we headed back to the UK and I

finally got back to New York on the first commercial flight on the Friday obviously we were evacuated

from the apartment, but we had no clothes. And my then fiancé's wedding dress was in the apartment

passport, everything was there. We were actually moved into her mom's house in Long Island

Anyway, so the Saturday, we decided to see if we can go and get into the apartment

So we got the train to Penn Station and started walking downtown, and they started putting up checkpoints at 14th Street

So luckily, I just got my New York driving license, so I had the address on it

And we had to go through various checkpoints, and we were going, we got to about two or three blocks from ground zero

and they had chain and fence, they had troops, police, you name it, they were all there

And they were like, forget it, buddy, you're not going in, no way, ha-ha, forget it

So I finally went up to a National Guard sergeant, and I'd actually been an officer in the Royal Air Force Reserve in the cadets

and I still have my military ID. So I pulled that out, went up to a National Guard sergeant

and I said, you know, Sergeant, I'm an officer in the Royal Air Force. Don't do anything other than get into the apartment, get some clothes and leave

He looks at me. He goes, oh, he cursed and then said

my dad was a bomber pilot in the Second World War. I'll take you because she can't go

So, you know, she told me what she wanted. He grabbed an NYPD cop and we went down Murray Street

We turned left onto Greenwich Street where the apartment was and I literally stopped in my tracks

just for a second or two, there was the pile, obviously, but the thing I'll never forget was the smell

And it was... The pile of rubble, the pile of... The pile of rubble was 400 feet in front of me

Tell me about the smell. It was a sickly sweet smell. You know, it's lunchtime in the UK and it's breakfast here

but it was the smell of death. And we climbed nine flights of stairs

They gave me 10 minutes in the apartment to fill up a couple of suitcases

And we left and got back to the checkpoint and, you know, I sort of say got on with our lives

I understand. We moved into my mother-in-law's house for a few months

We got married and moved back into the apartments at the end of November

We lived with the noise, the dust and the rubble until October 2002 when we moved to Port Washington

on Long Island. Anyway, so cut forward now 10 years later. This is the little twist to the story

10 years later, I'm sitting in the diner one Sunday morning in Port Washington

by myself, just reading the paper, ordered my eggs for brunch. Over easy

Over easy, yep. And there was a guy next to me who I recognized as a cop from Port Washington

Obviously, it was off duty. And he said, oh, where are you from

And I said, oh, originally I'm from the UK, but I've lived in port since 2002

He looked at me and he said, huh, last guy I met from the UK told me he was in the Air Force

And I got him into his apartment after 9-11. And I looked at him and I said, and your dad was a bomber pilot in the Second World War

And he said, yes. And you know in the movies when two people look at each other and the world's going around

It was a little bit like that for about 30 seconds. And I said to him, but you're a cop in town

He said, yep, I've been in the National Guard since I was 17, and I was activated on 9-11

Geoff is very unhappy with you for impersonating an RAF officer when you were merely a civilian cadet instructor

I, however, given the quality of that story and the goosebump at the end of it

I am prepared to forgive you as long as you promise never to do it again. I will never do it again, and I did have to hold the Queen's Commission in the VRT

Ah, well, there you go, Geoff. Calm down. Milton, what a wonderful... Well, I mean, what a story

What a story. Just in a way, it's a bit like the spinning wheel

that meant that Michael was in the opticians when he should have been upstairs on the..

Who knows where the world is going to take us. Thank you, Milton

I need to do something, because I wondered, is it appropriate to do this? And then I thought it couldn't actually be more appropriate

because Donald Trump is now the president of the United States of America

and those of us who care about truth and decency have failed utterly to make other people aware of how dismal his depravity is and how awful for

the world, not just for the United States of America. We've failed utterly. And so I will try

again because this is President Trump on Tuesday lying. I just thank my people. I took a lot of

my, I was building a big building in New York and I took the whole crew down there right after

this happened and they were they had no hesitation everybody went down with me we went down as a big

group of people wasn too much we could do i be honest it was it was raw Nobody seen anything like it ever We had other buildings United States Steel Building was creaking really creaking

Now, we thought it was going to fall down. The truth is it creaked a lot. It creaked

It still creaks, but it never came down. And I'll never forget two firemen. We thought it was coming

down on top of us and two firemen big strong guys and i'm not the smallest guy in the world

they grabbed me under the arms they got to get out of here and they literally lifted me up this

is not easy to do i'm big they lifted me up and they started running with me i said fellas i can

run myself but they were amazing but they thought it was coming down it didn't come down usd and

And here he is lying in April. And I predicted all of it

I predicted Osama bin Laden would knock out the World Trade Center

I made that prediction a year before he did. I said, you better get him. He's a bad guy

I watched him be interviewed one time. And I said, that's a bad guy

You better get him. One year before exactly. I wrote it in a book

You can even check about a year before the World Trade Center came down

president clinton actually had a shot at him and he didn't take it unfortunately i'm not blaming him

for that but he didn't take it and uh he ended up knocking down the world trade center but i

predicted that i predicted a lot of things he didn't predict any of those things he is lying

about the tragedy that we have spent three hours in london in britain thousands of miles away from

new york reflecting on and feeling profoundly moved by and this man lies about it he lied about it on

Tuesday, he lied about it in April, and he lied about it in 2001. As you walked around and as you

saw the piles of rubble, there are thousands of families out there who are hoping that someone

might be in a pocket somewhere, still alive, still breathing, waiting to be dug up. As you

assessed that damage from your perspective, do you believe that's possible? Well, I would certainly

not want to be the one to say it's not possible. Certainly, it's a tough situation, but you can't

give up hope because there's always hope i mean the five men i'm sure their families thought that

they probably were gone and now they walk in the door a couple of them walked away after they were

dug out so there probably are some more people in there and therefore you can't give up hope

um and then finally a lie so egregious and so hideous because the arrogance and the conceit

and the self-interest that lies behind the actual lie is still 25 years later beyond my comprehension

Donald, you have one of the landmark buildings down in the Financial District, 40 Wall Street

Did you have any damage or, you know, what's happened down there? Well, it was an amazing phone call I made

40 Wall Street actually was the second tallest building in downtown Manhattan

And it was actually before the World Trade Center was the tallest. and then when they built the World Trade Center

it became known as the second tallest and now it's the tallest. Not only the lie is abhorrent

but also of course the fact that even if it was true it would in his head be an appropriate thing

to mention in that moment and I for one can't shake the realisation today

that when flight 93 ploughed into an empty field in Shanksville, Pennsylvania at 10 minutes after 2

2 minutes after 10 on that day it is highly likely that it was making its way towards the US capital

So Donald Trump's supporters, 21 years later, succeeded where the terrorists failed

and launched an effective attack upon the US capital. I spoke to Francis Fukuyama earlier this week

for today's episode of Full Disclosure. and one of the greatest thinkers of the last 50 years

Here he is on a theme that I think is very relevant to what we've been talking about all day

The idea that a society's health is dependent upon the amount of trust in a society

America has become a case study. Very low trust, yeah. Subsequently. No, that's a really, it's kind of a sad story

because at the time I wrote Trust, most people thought that America

was a relatively high trust society. There's a long history to that

that Alexis de Tocqueville's, you know, description of America is full of associations

because Americans could work together very readily. You know, I think that was the dominant view

of American society. But the mid-1990s was also the moment when polarization really began to set in

and this poisonous idea, you know, that you've got a deep state

that's working against your interests, that the other side, you know, are basically enemies

that need to be countered rather than conciliated in some way. And there's not much sign of us coming out of that any time soon

Unfortunately, no. And what follows some of it, we've touched upon the break with the neocons over Iraq

I mean, I think if I hadn't already asked you about your relationship with Hope

I'd probably ask you again now. But the way that the success..

freed you to explore and to study? Did it also free you to make breaks like that

I know you write about it in After the Neocons, but you didn't have to worry about, for example

paying the bills by staying in the building. That's right. No, at that point, in terms of an academic career

again, I've been really kind of magically blessed because my first academic position came with tenure

and a chair, a named chair at George Mason University. And then I went on to size to another named chair

And, you know, it does give you a level of security where you feel you can say, you know, whatever you want

Yes. I mean, that's what tenure is supposed to do. Unfortunately, for many people at that point, they're already socialized into, you know, a kind of cautious, intellectually cautious stance, you know, that doesn't allow them to really explore new areas

but in my case, you know, it did. That's extraordinary, actually. I mean, it's more than serendipity, isn't it

Because you'd put yourself on these paths, but then the planets align in ways

that you couldn't really have asked for more. It couldn't have suited you better

Yeah, I think I say this at some point in the memoir, but conservatives tend to think that people are self-made

and that their position in life is entirely their doing, and I just don't think that's true

My position in life was just a matter of luck in so many respects

There's an American phrase I love about being born on third base and thinking you scored a triple

Yeah, that's right. That's what you're describing. Yeah. And then finally, Francis

the memoir in the realm of The Last Man. I mean, did your publisher come to you again

and say, what do you want to write about next? No, no. I told him I want to write a memoir

and he went along with it. And it is, I mean, a classic blend of personal and professional

Yeah. And there were various loose ends that I wanted to tie together

that I finally put the end of history thing to bed in..

more final way. And it ends, arguably, with America itself, in the worst state it's been for all the years

that you've been studying. Yeah. No, I began my interest in modern states, really, with Iraq and Afghanistan, where we

managed to collapse these two states, and we didn't know how to put them back together

And that started me thinking about the importance of having a modern state, and then the realization

that America itself did not have a fully modern state. And that, you know, then culminates in Donald Trump's war against the deep state

There's a prescription, though, as well, not just diagnosis. You do attempt to..

Yeah, no, I definitely have ideas about how you needed to fix the American state

Whether those will ever come to pass, we'll have to see. We will

And in the meantime, the midterms are just around the corner, and a lot of people are very, very fearful about what could be coming next

Yeah. I'm not, actually. I actually think we're going to do okay in the midterms

but you know we see And it won prompt any of the sort of apocalyptic scenarios that some Trump critics have suggested Yeah I think he going to do everything he can to manipulate the election

but in the end, I don't think he's going to be able to. However, it's going to free him afterwards if he does have a Democratic Congress

to try to change the subject by doing a lot of crazy things

so as I said it's never dull human history but some periods are left for me

He is one of the cleverest people I've ever met and I've met a lot of people including Sheila

Fogarty. I've met Sheila, I've met Keith as well, I've met some really really clever people

He's right up there probably in the top two so do check out this week's episode of Full Disclosure

If you missed any of today's show you can listen back on the Global Player app or the LBC app

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week's full disclosure with one of the cleverest people i've ever met i've got a funny feeling he

didn't say the same thing when he walked out of that studio but you never know he did when i met

download the official lbc app for free from your app store now coming up on lbc app for tom swarbrick

but now it's time for sheila folk james o'brien on lbc