Up next in 10
Net migration falls to lowest level since 2021 | LBC guests and callers
May 24, 2026
00:00 | Nick Ferrari says credit should go to Home Secretary Shabana Mahmood 02:18 | Nick Ferrari is joined by Sara Pownall - former Chief Immigration Officer for the UK Border Force based at Heathrow Airport (2006-11) 05:22 | Nick Ferrari is joined by David Shipley, investigative journalist - who has written a piece for the Spectator titled 'The bleak truth about falling net migration' 09:13 | Labour's Peter Kyle joins Nick to explain what the government has achieved on migration 10:17 | Nick reflects on what the figures mean and reacts to texts 11:28 | Caller Sarah shares a story of a working Indian couple who were not able to renew their visas. 13:19 | Caller Richard believes the figures are not going into enough detail because people 'conflate' legal and illegal migration 16:30 | Caller Nick thinks 'it's another spin to try and win votes' 18:03 | Emma Sinclair - chief executive of the software company 'Enterprise Alumni' weighs in on whether it's a 'brain drain'. 23:05 | Samiksha Bhattacharjee Political Commentator with Young Voices UK talks about what this means for young people 27:43 | Caller Lucy talks about job competition and prospects for young people - her daughter is struggling to secure a training place 31:07 | Caller Sam firmly believes the UK is experiencing a brain drain 35:15 | Caller Lauren's explains why family are spread out across the globe Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #lbc #nickferrari #migration #migrants #immigration #immigrants #nigelfarage #reform #jobs #jobprospects #opportunities #labour #labourparty #government #uk #uknews #ukpolitics LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Credit is due, and credit I think should go to Shabana Mahmood, the Home Secretary
0:03
because she is tackling the problem of my illegal immigration, overall net immigration as well
0:10
I'm sorry to blitz you with so many numbers, but there's no other way really to give you this story
0:15
But figures published by the Home Office yesterday show net immigration to the UK in the year to December
0:19
last year obviously, was 171,000. What does that mean? It's a drop of nearly 50%, and it's not a level unseen since 2012
0:27
it's a tremendous success story now since the 2021 census just stay with me
0:33
the number of foreign born people in the UK has risen by 2.4 million
0:38
and the foreign born population now amounts to almost a fifth of the total
0:41
in 2019 net immigration was 229,000 by 2022 with the Covid lull over
0:50
what's been dubbed the Boris wave that reached 590,000 And as recently as 2023, the wave was really a tsunami, wasn't it
1:04
944,000. I'll stop there, you've had enough figures. So for the Conservatives to suggest that under their watch it was 590,000
1:13
and then it was 944,000, and now at 171,000, it's all down to them
1:18
is risible, isn't it? Here's Migration Minister Mike Tapp speaking with my LBC colleague, Andrew Marr, last night
1:24
This is a step towards where we want to be. You know, an 82% drop in net migration is really encouraging
1:33
We've achieved that by making, you know, skilled worker visas to degree level, higher English language
1:39
We've also taken around 100 occupations off the list that can use foreign workforces
1:44
There's also a lot of work to do on illegal migration, deporting more. I mean, that's up by 41% at 67,000 as well today
1:51
we've moved around 12,000 out of hotels in the last year. Well, we need to tell you what the Conservatives are claiming
1:58
Shadow Home Secretary Chris Philp. The truth is this reduction is a result of policies introduced in April 2024
2:05
by the last Conservative government. It's good to see those Conservative policies working
2:10
It is frankly absurd for Keir Starmer and Shabana Mahmood to claim credit for policies the last government implemented
2:17
Well, let's put some of this to Sarah Pownall, who's a border management and immigration expert
2:21
and was former Chief Immigration Officer for the UK Border Force out at Heathrow Airport and joins me now
2:28
Can you track back where the success, if you'll allow it, has begun? What's your take on that? Good morning to you
2:34
Good morning, Nick. And yes, a lot of the policies that the Conservative Party brought in
2:40
have now trickled down to the fact that, as you've mentioned already
2:45
about the reduction in skilled workers being able to bring their dependents
2:49
and also students being prohibited from bringing their dependents to the UK as well
2:55
And so where are we, can we drill down to where we're seeing the reductions
2:59
How has this actually been achieved? Is it spouses of students and other matters such as these
3:05
Yes, spouses and children of students and the skilled worker route. Obviously, there was a huge increase in the healthcare worker route post-pandemic
3:15
which was adequately filled by all kinds of different nationalities outside the EU
3:21
And what was also attractive for a lot of them was the fact that they could bring their partners and children
3:28
That route was obviously stopped, and consequently that route is less popular
3:34
The governments say there's still more to do. What do you see as that more has to be done
3:39
I think the increase in enforcement activity has been a good move by the current government
3:47
because that enforcement activity has led to an increase in removals. Now lots of people are
3:53
always talking about deterrence and there's been limited research done on what is actually a
3:58
deterrent to people but certainly removal activity will positively impact the number of
4:06
migrants that are actually ending up in the UK. Lastly, some, not all, I repeat
4:13
some, not all of those arriving on small boats would seem not necessarily to have that high level of skills
4:19
And at the same time, and we're doing this later in the show, Sarah, data released yesterday shows 75,000 16 to 34-year-olds
4:27
many of whom have trained, Britons, many of whom have education levels up to university degree
4:33
are leaving the country. It's called a so-called brain drain. How concerned should we be about that
4:40
I don't like the use of the word brain drain. With anything to do with migration, it should always be treated as a flow
4:49
But I also know of people who have attempted to gain employment in the UK, medical doctors, that type of thing
4:56
who would normally easily qualify for skilled worker visas, but they're not being sponsored
5:00
So I think that the government has to work out who are they trying to attract, because if people who are highly skilled, adequately qualified, can't find employment, then who are they actually aiming for
5:14
Grateful for your time. Sarah Pownall, thank you, border management and immigration expert. You were chief immigration officer out at Heathrow Airport, 11 after 7
5:21
11 after 7. Listening to that, David Shipley, who is an investigative journalist and indeed has written a piece for The Spectator
5:26
titled The Bleak Truth About Falling Net Migration. What is that bleak truth, David
5:31
Good morning to you. Good morning. I think fundamentally it's measuring the wrong thing
5:36
Often this happens in government. We start measuring a statistic and the job becomes about moving the statistic
5:42
not dealing with the underlying issue. And I don't think people's concerns about migration
5:47
are necessarily to do with the overall net flow because actually what that hides is a lot of variants
5:53
So in this case, in the last year, about 642,000 people left the UK
6:01
And the big bulk of those is Brits and EU nationals, a quarter of a million Brits, for example
6:07
whereas about 627,000 non-EU migrants have come here. And what that represents is a huge turnover and change
6:14
in the population mix of the country. And also, your previous guest was talking about
6:19
the issue of flow well the thing is we do know that different population groups on average have
6:25
quite different levels of economic activity and also criminality so there's good data from
6:31
Denmark which is very very robust on this which broadly tells us that migrants from the Anglosphere
6:36
from Western Europe from Japan tend to be pretty economically productive and pretty low criminality
6:41
whereas ones from the the Horn of Africa the Middle East Pakistan tend to be quite low economic
6:47
activity and quite high criminality. At the moment, we are losing a lot of high productivity
6:54
people, on average, and gaining a lot of lower productivity people. So that is quite harmful economically as well
7:00
I was at an event last night where I learnt that the number of Brits
7:03
now going to Poland and settling in Poland is at a record
7:07
level. And these are people who are taxpayers and whatever. That possibly speaks
7:11
to the theory you were just expounding, David. I think so. I mean, I think a lot of that
7:15
may be, I'm sure you and many of if your listeners remember when the Polish migrants started to come over 20 years ago
7:22
after the accession happened. And I suspect a lot of what we seeing there is those Poles and maybe their children you know moving back to the motherland because actually Poland economy has grown really well in recent years and is you know outpacing Britain substantially
7:39
So maybe they're seeing better opportunities there, certainly cheaper housing. And I think that is the problem. You know, if people with opportunities are going elsewhere to take them
7:49
And we are seeing some data now that the sort of highest earning migrants are less likely to stay here and the lowest earning ones are more likely to stay here
7:56
Therefore, lastly, David, do we see this as a Labour success story or one with caveats
8:04
I think they have done sensible things. So the Tories did make a few changes right at the end to raise the threshold on salary, but that was to slightly undo the huge harm they've done
8:16
Labour have done more sensible things. The big issue we've got is that Siobhan Mahmood's reforms
8:21
to indefinite leave to remain haven't been brought in yet, and they will stop the Boris wave settling
8:26
We've got the 5 million who arrived between 2020 and 2025 who are going to be able to settle
8:32
and most of them are very low-earning, and that will be a financial disaster for the country
8:36
So the thing Labour have to do is get those ILR reforms through as a matter of urgency
8:42
Enjoy speaking with you. Thanks, David. David Shipley, investigative journalist, written a piece for The Spectator
8:45
entitled The Bleak Truth About Falling Net Migration. I appreciate people don't like the expression
8:50
I won't use it regularly, but it does speak to it. The so-called brain drain. 75,000 16- to 34-year-old Brits leaving this country
8:58
most of whom, the majority of whom, are educated to university degree level
9:03
Meanwhile, you see the photographs of the people arriving here who, I would argue, not in all cases, but in many
9:08
would not seem to be trained or educated at that same level. while the government is undoubtedly to be applauded for bringing down the net immigration
9:17
figures to the lowest level since 2012 as business and trade secretary how concerned are you that
9:22
data shows 75 000 more 16 to 34 year old native britons most of whom are educated to university
9:29
degree level have left the country it's great you've got a cold on the numbers but it's very
9:34
concerning young people are leaving mr kyle uh well actually it's not way out of step with what
9:40
what is normal, what is out of step with what has become normal
9:44
is the two-thirds reduction since its peak in net migration. The majority of people who are leaving the country are not British nationals
9:51
They're people who came over in that wave of immigration under the Boris Johnson open doors policy
9:57
and they're the people who are predominantly leaving the country. But it shows that we are getting a grip on the fundamentals
10:04
of running our overall migration policy. When it comes to small boats, they have reduced by a third in a year
10:11
When it comes to use of asylum hotels, reduced by a third. Now, these are tricky, tricky policies
10:18
These are things that, of course, there will be ups as well as downs, but the overall figures are going in the right direction
10:23
At the same time as growth now getting to the top of the G7, inflation reducing, all of these figures coming out this week
10:31
So thank you for allowing me to have the space to say these things on your show
10:34
and have a little bit of time to talk about some of the good stuff that is out there, as well as some of the challenges that you usually tackle me on
10:42
I want to be really careful because we're talking about each human individual here, but particularly for young people, 75,000, the majority of people are educated to university degree level
10:52
They are leaving, and in a lot of instances, people arrive in, as one of our contributors said, with very different backgrounds to those that we have here
10:59
and we've seen some high-profile cases, many in the field of sexual assault in that area
11:04
So is that what's happening when people get here? Lastly, before I go to Sarah, Jane says
11:08
you and others have spent the last year banging on, saying Labour should stop blaming the last government for everything
11:13
They've been in power for nearly two years and have to take responsibility. So surely they can also claim credit for the good things too
11:19
I don't think you were listening carefully enough, Jane. I did say that this is a Labour success story
11:24
and I question the Conservatives really trying to say that it's all down to them. Sarah's in Birmingham. Let's talk about the quality of some of the people
11:31
Sarah, what's your story? Good morning. Hello, Nick. Hello. Hello. So I worked with a lady and she moved to England with her husband
11:39
Both of them came to England to student visas to complete the Masters. Where did they come from, Sarah
11:45
India. India. Yeah. So I completed the studies. Both of them got jobs
11:51
One of them worked in my school and I believe her husband was in an accountancy firm
11:56
I had a child here. So I started building a life here
12:00
And then they couldn't renew the visa. So they've had to go. And I said to her, like, can you not fight it
12:06
Can you not get solicitors involved? She just said it's just too expensive
12:10
It's just too expensive. And I cannot understand why a family like that, educated people
12:16
they're working, they're contributing, they want to build their life. Why are they not allowed to stay
12:22
I welcome people like that. I don't care where you're from. So she was a hard worker, he was a hard worker
12:26
They wanted to stay here, raise a family, and, as you rightly say, Sarah, they wanted to pay their taxes
12:32
Exactly, exactly. So, net migration figures at headlines are saying, great, it's going down
12:38
but it's the wrong kind of people, in my view. It really is the wrong kind of people
12:43
We have to be careful how we say it, but I think you've done it very eloquently and brilliantly. Sarah, before I let you go, you're in Birmingham
12:49
I am. Are you a Villa fan? No, because my mum's in London
12:54
so I'm Arsenal, so I'm equally as happy. Oh, we've had a good week, then
12:58
And looking forward to tomorrow, so hopefully it's going to be an even better weekend. Oh, and have your bins been cleared away
13:06
Whilst I'm in Birmingham, I actually, by about 100 metres, I'm in the Sandwell border
13:11
So I've been quite lucky. All right. Thanks for calling in. Best wishes to you
13:15
Enjoy your weekend. Hope you do. Thanks, Sarah. Richard's in Malden. Richard, how do we talk about this
13:21
Because we don't want to be grotesquely inconsiderate to those who are arriving, but in many instances
13:28
I don't think they're going to go on and do those sort of jobs and pay that level of tax, are they, Richard
13:32
Good morning. Yeah, good morning, Nick. Yeah, I mean, my basic thing is
13:38
as has been said by other callers and by Dave Shipley, that the figures are being used as, you know
13:45
depending on your political leaning, as evidence of, you know, we're getting across this issue
13:52
net migration is reducing, and so on and so forth. But often it just simply avoids the detail
14:00
By just dealing in numbers, it just avoids the detail, which is incredibly important
14:07
Let me ask you this. That's a really interesting point that you've made, Richard
14:11
Because if you'll allow that a lot of the reform offering is on controlling the boats, controlling the number of people into this country
14:19
if the Labour government can point to the fact, well, actually, we've brought about a 48% reduction
14:23
and a figure down the like of which we've not seen since 2012. How much does that pull the rug from under reform in your view, Richard
14:31
Well, I mean, I don't necessarily think it is because I think what happens is you conflate two issues
14:37
because there is legal migration which, you know, is controlled. It's been sort of established that criteria has to be met
14:47
before you can come here. And then there are people arriving illegally
14:51
So I think you know by simply talking in numbers it sort of confuses or sort of mirrors the nuance which is there is a distinct difference between people arriving illegally in small boats
15:07
which is, I think, the thing which really gets to people, and then others who are arriving through a process which is lawful
15:17
and where they've met specific criteria. And lastly, to Sarah's point, they come here legally
15:23
they start working here legally, then their visas are up, and they haven't got the money or simply the stomach for the fight
15:29
so they leave having already contributed to our tax system. Yeah, well, that's a fair point, you know
15:37
This country has a great history of welcoming people, and the reality is anybody who uses the NHS and other services
15:45
will realise that without migrants, they wouldn't function. Oh, you're absolutely right
15:51
Richard, thank you. So this is the sort of trade-off, isn't it? And again, as someone says here, where's your name
15:57
Nick. Why do net migration figures? Who might responsible? If we look into the number, how many millionaires and billionaires have left the UK since Labour came into power
16:04
That's a lot of tax disappearing. Well, Nick, that was a story we looked at. Actually, I think it was Monday or Tuesday
16:09
I can't remember. And while it's impossible to put a figure on it, it is in the billions of pounds
16:15
So as they go out, not in all instances, but in a lot of cases
16:19
we have young undocumented males arriving who would appear to have very, very limited skills
16:25
But don't worry, we're going to put them up, we're going to house and feed them and give them a daily allowance
16:29
It doesn't make sense. Nick in Hurst-Pirpoint. Nick, what's the point you want to make? Good morning
16:34
Exactly that. It's just another spin for trying to win votes this week
16:42
I suppose, is Andy Burnham. Yes, well, not quite, but it will be in a couple of weeks' time
16:46
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he's edging his bets early on and just..
16:50
So the reality is the good ones are going, and in some instances, I'm really coaching my language carefully
16:55
in some instances, not all, it's some bad ones who are arriving. Yeah, well, it's the fabrication of the figures
17:01
It's to satisfy the front page of the newspapers, but in reality, we're not actually seeing the true figures
17:07
of what's being brought to us and what's being taken from us
17:13
What is being taken from us? I'm confused. Well, in terms of the loss of taxpaying that may have gone
17:23
and what's being brought to us is perhaps someone that does not contribute to the people that may have left
17:31
Here are the points you're making. Nick, have a good one down in Sussex. Thank you. Andrew Sturton says
17:35
This topic of immigration, your friend Nigel Farage is on record. Deport three million, stop all immigration
17:40
Result would be at least 28% of all hospitals, 75% of all care homes would shut
17:44
and who will care for these care home residents but no worries people think
17:48
Farage will save us all that was the point I was making Andrew if this is well
17:52
no there's no if this is a success story on numbers now perhaps personnel is a
17:57
different issue but on numbers does that strip some of the reform offering away
18:03
let's bring into the conversation Emma Sinclair who's a businesswoman entrepreneur and chief executive of the software company Enterprise Alumni and
18:10
and joins me now. Are you hearing that this is an age group that is particularly experiencing
18:16
problems, the like of which certainly my age, and I'm a lot older than you, but why didn't I
18:21
didn't have when I tried to get into the workplace? Good morning, Emma. Morning, Nick. Thank you for
18:26
the sun warning. I've got my sun cream ready. But before I do so... Do you know how much you should
18:31
put on each limb, by the way, Emma? Do you know how much sun cream you should apply to your arms
18:35
each of your arms and your legs? That feels like a question my parents might ask me, which case I
18:39
would say a lot you'll find out later you'll find out yes you will you'll find out i'll be tuning in
18:45
to make sure that my knee has the correct amount of sunscreen this weekend thank you for that
18:49
and i'm not just hearing that about about young people i'm seeing it and on a daily basis you know
18:54
just when i was waiting to come on and speak to you i thought to myself i can list about 20 people
19:00
directly in my circle that i see and touch every day in either our us or our uk office but the
19:07
that are brits and and i mean i'll give you a few examples we've got the most wonderful
19:12
receptionist in our london office jemma and her son ossie has just left for the middle east
19:18
her jemma's parents are are immigrants they should have set up a life here this was where they came
19:24
to make their way and their son who loves and adores and made the hard choice because he can't
19:28
order house my step-son nick is having real trouble and is looking at asia and he's had a
19:34
a job since he was 16. Hang on, how old was Ossie? How old was Ossie? He is 25. How old, might I ask, is your
19:41
stepson? He's 22. There we go, this is the age. On you go with what you're saying, Emma. Yeah, and I mean, I'll just
19:47
give you one more, Nick, and then maybe we could just come up with, just share some of the reasons, because I
19:51
hear government saying, you know, oh no, they're not, and it's so punch and judy, it's like, yes, they really
19:55
are. And then I also think about, you know, a couple of weeks ago, it was a major Jewish festival, Passover
19:59
I had dinner with some Jewish friends and their children who are all at I'd say late teens or early 20s
20:07
So have a year or two left to go thinking about jobs, you know, have summer jobs in McDonald's and Waitrose and bars and restaurants
20:14
They are all saying that they're looking for their first job overseas. So we've got a mixture of economic problems, AI, which the government is laughable when I hear how the governments are approaching that
20:25
Anti-Semitism and housing challenges. And it is a brain drain. It's like Russia in the 80s and 90s could happen here if we don't do something about it
20:34
So let's turn to you as an entrepreneur and as a businesswoman rather than a politician
20:38
What are the levers that need to be pulled? What needs to be done? Yeah, I mean, you're right, not a politician, because they don't hire people that have business experience
20:49
They prefer business secretaries, who I'm sure are charming, but have sort of charity experience
20:55
I'm going to come off to the pot and tell you what I think this morning, Nick. But it's driving me nuts because I'm sitting and watching this and it's like a slow car crash
21:03
You know, what are the couple of levers? My dad talks to me often about the 1970s Britain and Labour's Britain, you know, all those famous or infamous, you know, states of unemployment
21:12
And I'm watching the number 10 and number 11 slowly strangle small, medium and large businesses here, whether it's supermarkets and caps
21:23
whether it is national insurance that's closing down hairdressers or, you know, behaviour with the pubs
21:29
So first of all, there's a straightforward approach to growth. Well, the straightforward lack of approach to growth is a problem and that needs dealing with
21:37
The second thing is, you know, everyone likes talking about AI. You know, I'm on a software company
21:44
That was my last question. How much is this actually not this government's fault or indeed any government anywhere on the planet
21:50
It is actually the fault, I'll put that word in quotes, of AI. Well, my business is an AI company. We're software, we're SaaS. We also have a very
21:59
large portion of our business that is AI driven, both in terms of what we sell, but also in
22:03
terms of how we run the business. And I'll tell you this, Nick, what the government aren't
22:08
doing is they're not helping. So, for example, we are still employing people. We need to
22:12
employ less people, better people, more qualified people. But we definitely are employing less
22:18
here. And that is because of the employment laws in the UK. So, on the one hand, you could say well AI but on the other hand the government have made a choice and made it difficult for me to choose and we a global business we got people in South America North America Asia We made a decision which is the UK is a challenging place to hire
22:37
You know, housing. And as I say, anti-Semitism is on my list because, you know
22:41
I don't not hear about it every day. So I just, there's a perfect storm of a reason for people to leave
22:47
and it is very sad and we will come to regret it. Emma Sinclair, thank you for your time
22:52
Businesswoman, Entrepreneur, Chief Executive of the company. Software company, Enterprise alumni. Stay tuned when we'll be telling you exactly the amount of sun cream you need
22:59
to protect yourself through the course of this hot weekend. I was going to say in the UK, but I think it's a hot weekend
23:04
probably entomized everywhere. Let's bring to the conversation Samishkar Bhattachaji, who's a political commentator with Young Voices UK
23:11
So I've already shared with the listeners the number of young people who are going. I'll now remind my listeners, you probably know
23:16
that figures came out earlier this week. UK's youth unemployment is at its highest level for nearly 12 years, 14.7
23:25
18 to 24 year olds How much of an issue is it for young voices
23:30
Good morning, Samishka Good morning Yes, it's incredibly sunny I also need to tune in to find out how much
23:37
I usually don't ever wear sunscreen Oh, don't You're not serious No, I don't
23:43
I sound like your mother I do apologise You do Well, Samishka, you must stay tuned
23:48
Hang on, I'll tell you what time we're doing Right, we're doing that about 9.35 so you can go and have a, I don't know, bowl of cornflakes or something and come back
23:54
Right, you are a political commentator with Young Voices. What are Young Voices saying about this, Samishka
23:59
Well, I mean, you pointed out the net migration figures. We're all celebrating the drop
24:06
but the fact is that it's actually the highly productive, the skilled native population that's leaving
24:14
I mean, we're seeing a negative net migration of 136,000 British nationals
24:20
and this isn't a victory right i mean we're replacing our highly productive human capital
24:29
um and that's why our gdp per capita is flatlining and it is actually the government's fault i mean
24:35
you mentioned ai we've you know we've had waves of technological um changes and we haven't seen
24:43
this level of brain drain um and i am going to use that term because that's what it is i mean i'm a
24:48
young person. And we are suffering. The state is hiking the national minimum wage to £12.71 if
24:56
you're over 20, over 21. And small, medium-sized enterprises are struggling. They already operate
25:03
on tight margins. So the government has just completely destroyed the incentive. It's compressed
25:10
wages so heavily. It's just priced out to young people. Why would young people be hired when you
25:18
can hire somebody with you know five ten years of experience um it's just absolutely but samishka
25:25
the government would say we're ensuring that young people get a decent wage for the work they do that
25:29
is because i have challenged them over this and this is how they would respond to you samishka yes but the problem is we can't get the job in the first place it's all well and good
25:39
the government trying to um put us um in a um high-paid job but the problem is if you can't
25:46
get your foot on the ladder in the first place, we're all going to be leaving. And that's what's
25:51
happening. Young Brits, I've had friends who have already left the country because they can't get a
25:57
job. You know, they can't see the UK as giving them the opportunity. They are so qualified
26:02
They're coming out of university saddled with debt, looking and eager to go into the workforce
26:09
and nobody wants to hire them. Can I ask you personally, do you see your life here in the UK
26:14
would you consider going elsewhere to explore opportunities? What's the situation with you
26:19
I think that it's definitely very upsetting because, you know, I love this country
26:25
I think Britain is an amazing country. And it's just really upsetting the fact that the government have just created this toxic cocktail
26:36
that has meant that people like me, potentially like me, are going to have to leave the country
26:42
because I can't really see my future here if I can't actually get onto the career ladder
26:50
What is it you want to do, lastly, might I ask? You don't have to tell me, but what would you have your mindset to doing
26:57
Well, I mean, I'm currently looking into banking, economics. You know, I study politics, I study economics
27:05
and that's what I want to be able to do. but in the UK, this is just horrible
27:12
I mean, we can't get onto the housing ladder. We have the Rental Rights Act
27:17
which is, you know, the state introducing, basically bullying landlords. And so, you know, student accommodation
27:24
everything is just absolute chaos. That's all I have to say. And I'm grateful to you
27:30
I remind you, you need to listen just after half past. Thank you. Samishka Bhattachaji
27:33
when you will find out how much sun cream you need. You're a political commentator with Young Voices UK
27:38
will take calls on that also. Lucy's in Muswell Hill. Lucy what can you tell me? Good morning
27:43
Good morning Nick. You previously spoke to my daughter. She was defending private schools
27:50
and their efforts against GCSE state schools a long time ago now. She's now 29 and she's
27:59
completed her F1 and F2 as a resident doctor unable to secure one of the training spaces as a
28:06
a resident doctor now, one of which I think West Streeting withdrew 1,000 of the training
28:14
Ah, that's right. That was sort of a rather, many would say, a rather spiteful act. Yeah, I thought it was a bit like a petulant child, really, but there we are
28:22
And she, along with one of my work colleagues' sons, they have both gone to Australia looking out for something OSA
28:31
So what age are they? My daughter is 29 and my colleague's son, I believe, is 31
28:37
How much of a wrench was it for them? Or did they just say, look, Mum, and your daughter said
28:42
Mum, there is just nothing going on here now? I think, you know, she ideally would like to have found somewhere here
28:49
you know, to no avail. So, you know, you have to vote with your feet and find something somewhere
28:56
If I take you back to the days when you were in your 20s and you were possibly entering the workplace after university or college or whatever
29:03
Was it like that for you? What do you recall from those years? No, absolutely not
29:08
And my heart goes out to anybody looking for a job now. I went into banking, and it certainly wasn't anything like as bad as the people were
29:17
You did at least have a letter, sorry, no thank you in those days
29:22
If you were not up to the mark, or you felt validated by somebody actually responding
29:30
How much of this is down to AI? How much of this is down to perhaps a government that should be doing more
29:35
How would you break it down, Lucy? I think a government needs to do more. How does the government create jobs, though, for this age group
29:42
Well, in my day, I think that I worked alongside even people in banking
29:47
who were on the YTS scheme in those days. And whilst that sounds, I think I was earning the grand sum of about £200 a month
29:56
and my colleague was earning their £25 a week. but you know sort of bank took them longer view and you know sort of and thought well they're
30:06
you know sort of as good as so offered them a job i think after a couple of months
30:10
of course lastly this is a government that came to power promising that it would bring about
30:15
growth and although we had some fairly encouraging figures for the first quarter of this year it
30:20
hasn't been great so far in their nearly two-year tenure to create that growth that in turn creates
30:26
jobs, of course. No, I don't think that they're looking at, they're not sort of looking after
30:30
employers, they're sort of, so therefore they're not able to create jobs
30:35
Best wishes to your daughter, obviously. You're going to miss it. I mean, it's awful for you, isn't it? You're going to have to travel the other side of the world
30:39
Yes, it's rather a long visit, isn't it? It is. I used to live and work down there. It used to be
30:43
27 hours. I've told this story many times. 27 hours when they shut the door at Heathrow on the
30:47
Qantas plane. Why did I always fly Qantas? I don't know. I just liked it. At 20, and the door would shut, and you think, right
30:53
well, you got off of refueling at Singapore and someplace else. I can't remember. Singapore and somewhere
31:00
But it was a long time to spend on a plane. Lucy, have great trips when you go and see your daughter
31:04
We'll have more calls on that in just a moment. Sam. Sam's in Leicester. You're on the radio
31:09
Good morning. What can you tell me? Hello. Hello. Good morning. I heard in the break, actually, someone say
31:14
newsflash, the brain drain's not real, and I'd really like to argue against that sentiment
31:19
It very much is. Tell me why you would say that. well i'm a 29 um i'm very lucky to be in a senior role i work in artificial intelligence
31:28
yeah and whenever i talk to any of my peers the conversation is always around the same thing
31:33
how do we get out there's not really opportunity here anymore when you say there's not what have
31:40
you tried to bring about and unfortunately it not quite taken off well one of the unfortunate that the sort of middle manager roles the steps that you would take to get into a potentially higher earning position don really exist
31:55
anymore. Not necessarily they don't exist so that people aren't in those roles, that those roles
32:00
are not recruiting. While it's very, very difficult to get on the ladder because of
32:06
increasing technology in automation and the like, those roles aren't appearing. All the people that are in those roles are clinging on for dear life
32:16
and they're not being made open to people that are trying to progress
32:22
And when you combine that with the cost of living and the cost of trying to get a house
32:26
it becomes a very doomy future. Let's look around the rest of the world
32:31
Where might you think of going and how do salaries stack up in your particular occupation
32:36
elsewhere on the planet? So salaries in my particular field, in artificial intelligence and technology
32:44
if I look at somewhere like America, they're about three times as high. Yeah, and are they as plentiful
32:50
Or are they plentiful? Sorry, they're not plentiful here. They're struggling everywhere
32:56
Jobs are getting less and less. The job market is very, very difficult
33:00
almost everywhere in the world. But here we're in the situation of that
33:04
it's very difficult to get a job, and when you do get that job, you're not on a salary that provides you a good lifestyle
33:12
You can be okay, like I'm not struggling, I don't mean to play the martyr that I can't afford anything
33:18
but even still, even in a position that I'm in, where I'm in a senior role, I still can't get on the housing ladder
33:25
Oh really, that's very frustrating. Okay so where do you set your sights Which countries might you be looking at Well you pretty much have to spread the net as far and wide as you can and you go wherever opportunities are available I did mention America as the tech roles do pay quite well over there
33:44
But honestly, it's trying to find somewhere where you can actually have a bit of purpose. Because of the nature of work nowadays, where almost everything's remote
33:52
you aren't tied to the place that you were born and the place that you will live
33:56
which means that you take jobs wherever you can get them. unfortunately how much of a wrench would it be for you to leave england oh i love the uk i was born
34:06
and raised here and i have a great amount of pride in it we have an absolutely fantastic country
34:11
and one of the we have an absolutely fantastic education system as well we are breeding some
34:17
of the best and brightest people in the world but the unfortunate truth is that we don't have
34:22
anything for those people to do once they leave the education system and if they do manage to get
34:28
a role somewhere, that role doesn't afford them a good enough salary to be able to buy a house and
34:34
live the life just to the standard of their parents. Lastly, aren't you, as you're in AI
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aren't you in part author of your own misfortune? Oh, 100%. I very much agree with that. My career
34:47
has been writing software that we always say it's not to replace people, it's to assist people and
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make their life easier you know the reality as i do of course yeah and it's more it's not a case
34:58
that ai is replacing people ai is using is allowing less people to do more and more so the job that
35:05
previously took a team of 10 people now only takes a team of two people so the job still exists but
35:11
there's eight less of them good luck with whatever you choose to do sam thank you lauren in chelmsford
35:16
lauren are talented young people leaving this country in your view good morning good Nick Yes my daughter went on her travels 18 months ago and then she landed in Sydney decided she went to
35:29
It's a great spot. Oh, yeah, it's absolutely beautiful. I had the chance to go there in November to see her
35:37
Oh, lovely time of the year to visit as well, November. Well done. Absolutely fantastic
35:41
So she's there deciding, I don't think she wants to come home, so she's in the process of being sponsored at the moment
35:46
with her work. Right. What is it your daughter, I don't think you said, told us what she does
35:51
your girl. She's in recruitment. Right. So she did that in the UK
35:55
but most of her money was spent travelling to the city so she didn't have a lot
36:00
to spare after her travel and so on. So she's, yeah, so she's loved Sydney
36:06
Obviously you're delighted for her but you've got your daughter to the other side of the world. That's the downside
36:10
to all of this, Lauren. I have, but yeah, I'm into travel myself
36:15
So on Tuesday, I'm up and leaving and moving to Thailand. What
36:23
Yeah. I went out for a two-week volunteering trip. Right. And then got stuck there due to the Middle East conflict
36:32
Oh, yeah. So I was there on my own. Right. Come home and decided, so I actually leave on Tuesday
36:38
I've rented out my house. I'm going on a retirement visa. Okay
36:43
And two weeks ago, two weeks tomorrow, my son moved to New York on a two-year contract
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They're all leaving. Lauren, will you... Very well. You promised... Where are you going in Thailand
36:55
Just quickly. To Phuket, a very quiet area called Khao. All right
37:00
You be sure to stay in touch. Gosh, your family is spreading around the world, as are you. I want to hear from you in Thailand
37:05
You had the last word of the week. Best of luck to your children, one in Oz, one in New York
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