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Ben Kentish is joined by Reform UK’s Shadow Chancellor Robert Jenrick to discuss immigration, the party’s ambitious new tax-on-overtime policy, and his vision for the British economy. Jenrick denied a proposed tax giveaway described by Reform UK as a 'hard work bonus' would remove funding from public services. The party's announced plans to scrap taxes on overtime, should it win the next general election. Labour and the Conservatives warn the policy could take money away from the NHS and schools. He insisted his party would “clamp down” on any abuse of a proposed £5bn tax break for workers doing extra hours. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #benkentish #farage #LBC #nigelfarage #reform #robertjenrick #jenrick LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
I started by asking him about Reform's new tax policy announced today
0:04
They, if they are in power, will remove tax that people pay on overtime
0:09
as long as workers are earning less than £75,000 a year. But how would that work in practice
0:16
Look, we want hard work to pay. And there are millions of people in the country right now
0:21
who are working long hours, in fact, going above and beyond and taking on overtime, and yet feel they've got less and less to show for it
0:27
They can't take their kids for a meal, can't go on holiday because taxes are going up and bills just keep on rising
0:33
So a reform. We are for working people and we're going to change this
0:37
And so if there is a reform government, you will not pay any income tax at all
0:42
Zero on overtime. It's a hard work bonus. It's going to be a big change, but it will boost the earnings of millions of the most hardworking people in this country
0:51
Is this because you want people in Britain to be working longer hours? Yeah. You know, we want to reward the people who are working the hardest in this country, particularly those on lower incomes, the ones who are really struggling at the moment
1:04
This is going to be applicable for 90 percent of workers. And in particular, it's going to help those people at the lower end of the spectrum
1:12
You know, newly qualified nurses, factory workers, people in distribution centers, the people who are doing their 40 hour week and then choosing to take on those extra hours because they're saving for a deposit
1:23
or for a new car or a holiday or just to buy Christmas presents for their kids or their grandkids at the end of the year
1:30
they will know that under a reform government, they're going to keep all of that money
1:34
None of it's going to go to the taxman. They're going to keep all of it. How much will that cost the taxman
1:39
It's expensive policy. It's going to cost about five billion pounds a year
1:43
We're going to find that money through savings in welfare in particular
1:47
We're not going to pay welfare to people who aren't British citizens. and we're going to get millions of people who are currently choosing not to work back into the workplace
1:56
That means reforms, like saying that you can't claim disability benefit for mild conditions like mild anxiety
2:03
You've got to have a face-to-face appointment with a clinician before you get to benefit from that
2:09
I think that's fair, you know, because these people who are working really hard want to know
2:13
You wouldn't get disability benefits now if you had extreme anxiety. A mild version of anxiety or mental health conditions
2:21
You shouldn't be claiming mental health. If you went to try to claim benefits now for PIP or whatever benefit you asked for mild anxiety, you wouldn't be accepted
2:30
There are people who are claiming that today. And the amount of fraud is absolutely astonishing
2:36
I mean, the DWP itself estimates it's somewhere around £10 billion. That is a massive sum of money
2:42
And you're able to claim disability benefits today, either with a very short appointment, maybe just eight or ten minutes with your family doctor, or even that's done over the phone
2:51
There are even cases where it's done by emails and letters. That's not good enough
2:55
So by cutting out that waste and other things as well, like not paying foreign aid to rich countries, no more net zero subsidies, we can find the savings that we need to give this big tax cut to working people
3:06
How will you calculate how much of somebody's income has been over time? Because presumably that's going to be another kind of piece of bureaucracy that companies and small businesses across this country are going to have to deal with managing
3:15
No, it was very simple. You're going to work your normal 40 hour week
3:20
And then if you are somebody who gets paid for overtime, then the tax treatment act will just be different to the way it is today
3:27
And it will mean that you won't be paying any income. But somebody is going to have to keep track of what they do today
3:32
They do today. So you're pretty confident this won't add to any burden on employers
3:36
No, I think it's simple. Well, there'll obviously be things we'll have to work through with HMRC and the Treasury when we form the next government
3:41
And we'll put in place anti-avoidance measures so that people can't game the system 100 percent
3:47
But it's a very straightforward policy. You know, there are millions of people in the country listening to this program this morning who do their 40 hour week and then they get paid overtime
3:57
They should know that under reform government, they're going to save a lot of money as a result
4:01
Let's talk more broadly, if we could, Mr. Jarek, about your broader economic plans for a moment. I think, you know, as I was putting the chief secretary, it's fair to say the current chancellor has got a way to go to meet her promises on economic growth
4:10
What would you do to get this economy growing? Well, firstly, we're going to make sure that work actually pays
4:15
And that the root of this policy today You know it a massive mistake of Rachel Reeves to hike taxes on employers employing people through the increase in national insurance And you reverse those
4:27
Well, we're going to take a decision closer to the general election. So it's a huge mistake, but you can't commit to reversing it
4:31
Well, because it wouldn't be credible for me as Reform Shadow Chancellor to make that decision right now
4:37
We'll make that decision closer to the general election. But you can see... But you've just made a £5 billion spending pledge
4:41
so why can't you commit to reversing and taxising? Well, because I think the point is, because that's an even bigger cost
4:46
But what you can see today is the direction of travel, that where we find waste, we're going to root it out and we're going to use that money to bring down people's taxes and their bills
4:56
And the first port of call will be taxes on work. And so if there is an opportunity to reverse the national insurance increase, then we'll certainly take it
5:04
How else are we going to get the economy going again? Well, we're going to bring down people's energy bills by having a much more sensible energy policy where we go for cheap and reliable energy for households, but also for businesses
5:14
because you can't compete in a global economy when industrial energy prices are four or five times those of other countries
5:21
We're going to get the country building again. I want to build my home so that young people can get on the housing ladder
5:25
but also factories, offices, data centres, roads, railways. That will mean reform of our planning system as well
5:32
And we're going to ensure that we get people off welfare and into the workplace
5:37
That's absolutely critical. It's the root of everything. It's only if we can get those savings that we're able to cut people's taxes
5:43
And unfortunately, under this Labour government, they're clearly not prepared to do any welfare reforms at all
5:49
That isn't fair on working people. And it's going to mean that taxes will keep on rising
5:53
Well, they failed. Just very finally on this. Just yes or no. Will you stick to the current chancellor's fiscal rules
5:59
We haven't set out yet what our fiscal framework will be, but I can tell you that it will be a very robust one
6:06
And if anything, it will be tighter than Rachel Reeves. So this is to be decided
6:11
Well, it's not sensible for me to be setting the fiscal rules that I would apply as Chancellor
6:18
potentially three years ahead of a general election. You could tear them up in theory and borrow lots more than she is
6:23
I'm not going to borrow more. No. Look, we want to ensure that we bring the debt right down
6:28
And that's by rooting out the kind of waste that we've said. I'm not like Andy Burnham. I don't think that you can muck around with the bond markets
6:35
I think the bond markets are our friend. They are the people who keep the government honest
6:39
And I'm going to ensure that this government, under reform, will believe in sound money and actually be about bringing down the debt, reducing the size of the state, primarily by cutting out the tens of billions of waste that there is right now
6:51
We've heard your answer. Let's look at other important matters. Immigration, obviously, very central to your message
6:55
You've long been arguing we've got an immigration crisis, that migration is out of control in this country
7:00
And yet a couple of days ago, we got the latest net migration figures showing that immigration has actually plummeted from almost a million three years ago to 170,000 last year
7:10
If there ever was a crisis, and that's to be debated, it's clearly now over
7:15
No. Look, I find it astonishing, mind-boggling that you question whether there was a crisis
7:21
We had over a million people coming into the country. And that was under my former party
7:25
I was appalled by it. Ultimately, it's why I chose – Yes, but the crisis was on your watch. Ultimately, well, not my personal watch
7:30
You were in the cabinet. It was ultimately the reason I resigned from the government. Well, yeah, I put in place..
7:34
You sat in the cabinet that presided over this crisis. I put in place the very changes that are actually bearing fruit now
7:40
But I resigned. Here's the point. I resigned because they weren't enough. What we at Reform..
7:44
Let me finish the point. You resigned from a government that presided over a crisis
7:49
We now have a government that has reduced immigration to 170,000. But that's still way too many
7:55
That's still way too many. Where do you think it should be? As close to zero as possible
7:59
In fact, we want it to be less than zero. But it's going rapidly in the right direction, which undermines your argument
8:04
It doesn't. Not at all. Honestly, look, I think you're totally out of touch
8:09
We've got to bring down migration to the point where more people are leaving the country than are coming in every year
8:15
We want to have net emigration, a period, a long period, maybe 10 years in which we have that
8:20
Who do you want to leave? To give the country breathing space. Who do you think should be leaving? Well, you can start with all the illegal migrants in the country
8:26
But then not included in these figures. Get them out of the country as quickly as possible. But this is legal, Mike
8:30
And then of those people who were let in legally under the last government, the so-called Boris wave
8:36
we want to get those low low migrants out of the country because they are not net contributors They people if they stay here Carers Nurses If they stay here for the rest of their lives then these people are going to be costing you and I the British taxpayer hundreds of thousands of pounds
8:52
each year. In fact, we've calculated this and the cost of the Boris wave, if it's not arrested
8:56
will be £600 billion. These are the people that are caring for our elderly and our disabled
9:01
You want them to leave? We've got almost 10 million people in this country who are either out of work claiming
9:06
benefits. But they're not qualified as nurses or carers. Well, let's get them qualified then
9:11
Let's get them qualified. You'd rather a Brit was on the scrap heap. There's a million... No, I'd rather the person that
9:16
cared for my elderly parents wanted to be doing the job and was qualified to do it
9:21
Well, firstly, I think that's an insult to the Brits who are working in this sector
9:28
80% of the people working in social care in this country are British people
9:32
And I want more Brits to be doing it. There's a million young people at the moment who are not
9:36
in work. They're not even in education or training. That number is set to rise. We've got to get those
9:43
people, British people, off welfare and into the workplace, not just reach for this easy lever of
9:49
foreign labour coming into the country that undercuts the wages of British workers. And it
9:54
puts massive pressure on housing, on getting a doctor, getting a dentist, and the social pressure
10:00
of our country changing before our very eyes. That is what reform is. What do you mean the social pressure
10:05
Well, it's obviously impossible to successfully integrate millions of people in such a short period of time
10:11
For most of our country's history, we were a country marked by immigration
10:15
More people were leaving than were coming in. It's only from the late 80s and 90s that more people were coming in every year
10:21
Then it was in the tens of thousands. The kind of numbers that we've had in recent years have made it very, very difficult to have a strong sense of national identity
10:30
And that's what reform believes in. There was a crisis a few years ago, and I take your point that a million is certainly a lot of people
10:36
It's plummeted to 170,000. The population of this country is 70 million, increased by 0.25%
10:41
The crisis is finished, Mr. Gemma. The crisis is over. It has not
10:45
It has not. The numbers that we are seeing today are still unprecedented in historical terms
10:52
But they're plummeting under Labour. So you're whole argument as a result of immigration
10:57
Labour's already doing it. They're succeeding where your former party failed. No. Well, they are succeeding. They're doing more than the Alaska Conservative government did, for sure
11:05
But that is not good enough. That's not success. Success is bringing this right down
11:09
But they are. It's gone from a million to 170,000 in three years. If that continues... I'm sorry
11:14
If that continues in a couple of years' time, it will be the numbers you want to see. Well, come back to me if the numbers were zero. They're not today
11:20
They are far higher than they've been in most of our history as a country
11:24
We've got to get them down right the way. And I want to get all the illegal migrants out of the country
11:29
You know, it's completely outraged that we've got at least a million, maybe more. Estimates vary
11:33
All boat crossings are down 40% as well in the last year. Labour's doing a good job of this
11:36
70,000 people, mostly young men, are broken into our country under this Labour government
11:43
Undocumented men. They're putting immense pressure on our country. They're now being housed in bedsits on people's streets
11:50
You know, do you want that on the street next to you? Well, most people in our country don't
11:54
That has to stop. It's clearly not going to stop under this Labour government. More people broke into the country over the weekend
12:00
The weather is good. It's quiet in the channel today. Maybe more will come. Only reform has the strength and the policies that are needed
12:08
to actually tackle that. End the farce of the small boats crisis. We've been talking a lot about what reform would do in power
12:13
I just want to play you a clip of what happens when reform gets into power in Kirkley's, in local government
12:18
Have a listen to this. I don't understand the Constitution. I have not had sufficient time to read that as yet
12:26
I don't understand what standing orders are, what they're made up of, nor do I understand what an amendment is
12:32
I understand that Councillor Bolt does and is a well-respected councillor because he actually knows all of those rules
12:40
But I suggest there is a possibility that we might vote for something that we don't understand at the moment
12:46
And whereas ignorance is not a defence, risk should be mitigated. Is that what happens when reform wins power
12:52
They turn up not having done their homework, not having bothered to do the basics
12:56
about the job that they've been elected to hold. No I don know the clip you just played with but it sounds like you trying to mock a decent person who been elected as a councillor That not a good look She your local group leader in Kirk Cleese
13:11
She's had two weeks and she hasn't bothered to read the constitution of the council she wants to leave
13:15
There are new people who've been elected to councils who are not from the old political parties
13:20
who come from all walks of life, bring common sense to the job. And yes, some of them will take a bit of time to learn the ropes
13:27
but they bring a lot of fresh thinking as well. Overall, if you look at reform councils
13:33
they're performing extremely well. You know, if you look at council tax, reform councils are increasing council tax
13:39
less than their Conservative or their Labour peers. And that's only after being in place for a year or more
13:46
You know, I'm very confident that the new councils that we've just taken over..
13:50
You don't think somebody... Hold on, Rob. If people really like... If people really like..
13:53
A reform representative aspiring to lead a council two weeks after being elected ought to have read the rules of the council she seeks to lead
14:00
Well, if people really liked their local Labour or Conservative council, why have they ditched them all
14:06
People are voting in their droves for reform because they know that reform run councils well
14:11
that they bring fresh thinking and common sense to the job. And I put it to you, that clip is not how anybody should behave in government
14:16
You think that Labour and Conservative council are professionally run? I'm simply saying that having turned up to a meeting..
14:21
Birmingham City Council almost bankrupt. Two weeks after being elected, saying, I haven't read the rules but make me council leader
14:27
is not a good look for your party. Using one example, there were 5,000 council candidates
14:30
at the last election. Overall, reform councils are clearly doing a good job
14:34
and that's why people are voting for reform. The last council elections, just two weeks or so ago
14:39
were very clear. We won thousands of councillors across the country. This isn't how you behave in government
14:43
You're not going to get into power nationally and turn up and say, well, I don't know, I haven't read the rules, I don't know what's going on
14:47
Well, that sounds like what this Labour government did. They turned up without any plan
14:52
They all smashed the gangs. Well, that didn't work out. did it, won't increase taxes
14:56
Well, the small boat crossings are now 42%. She increased taxes by £26
15:00
billion and rising. Andy Burnham says I don't need to bother about the bond markets
15:04
There are concerns about what reform would actually look like in power
15:08
And I'd put it to you, just based on that clip, and others, that some of your local government representatives
15:12
are not doing much to reassure those concerns that people have. No, I fundamentally disagree
15:17
Look, I understand the game that the media wants to play. You want to criticise reform, but it's clearly not working with..
15:22
I don't want to criticise it either. It's clearly not working with the general... It's clearly not working with the public
15:27
because the public are voting for reform. They did it at the local elections. That doesn't mean we shouldn't hold you accountable
15:31
where you win power. They see reform in local government and they want more of it. That doesn't mean that accountability and scrutiny
15:35
aren't important when it comes to what your representatives are doing. Five-year final question
15:40
Nigel Farage claimed today that the disclosure about his £5 million gift from a crypto billionaire
15:44
in Thailand was obtained by the Russian state hacking his phone. If he believes that's the case
15:50
presumably he'll be referring that to the police and the security services. Well, that's for Nigel. But it is a very serious situation. And I would like to think that the police and the security services helped him in this. It shows the amount of pressure that he's under both in terms of physical threats and indeed we've seen cyber threats now
16:09
It's a big allegation. And I'd like to believe that the government and the authorities would do more to support him. You know, I've for a long time thought it was wrong
16:17
He will be referring this matter to the authorities. You'd have to ask Nigel himself. That's obviously his own personal decision
16:25
It'd be very strange if he didn't see it further. If you're trying to turn this around and make it sound like Nigel's the one who's doing something wrong
16:31
then he's the victim in this. He's somebody who's under a lot of physical threats
16:38
He's also under, as you've seen for this, cyber threats, including from, in this case, hostile states like potentially Russia
16:45
Incidentally, it also blows apart this silly argument that's been put around by the Labour Party that somehow Nigel is close to Putin
16:52
It sounds like it's Russia that was actually trying to hack into his emails and phone to actually cause him personal harm
16:58
I'm not disputing whether or not he's the victim. He says he is. He's told the mail on Sunday. He clearly is
17:01
If he's told the media, I'm just asking whether he'll be reporting it to MI5 as well. Well, look, he's had to because he doesn't get any help from the authorities
17:08
He's had to go and use a private firm to find this out. It's obviously up to him whether he does that
17:13
You know, I suspect he will be. But that's obviously up to him. The bigger point is that he's under a lot of pressure
17:19
He's got physical threats. He's got these threats from hostile states. Actually, the state should be stepping up and trying to help him
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