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This is a catch-up version of James O'Brien's live, daily show on LBC Radio from the 26th of May, 2026. 00:00 - What's the worst thing about social media? 50:16 - Rules ‘not fit for purpose’ after boys spared jail over rape - How do you make sense of the decision the Judge came to? 01:30:01 - Reform candidate sexism row deepens as more ‘degrading’ posts resurface - Chris Chambers, LBC's correspondent in Makerfield 01:38:32 – What is burnout? How do you get through it? Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #jamesobrien #politics #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
It's after ten, you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
0:06
I didn't forget there, I was pausing for effect. Um, moral panics, eh? I'd love them
0:11
To be fair, the moral panic is the bread and butter of the radio phone-in host
0:16
I'm supposed to start them, that's how this job traditionally operates. You're supposed to start moral panic
0:21
Oh, the world is going to hell in a handcart, we're all doomed. Oh, down with video games, down with, I don't know, what else
0:30
I'll do this as a text. Don't ring in, all right? But 84850 for a text
0:33
or 0345 6060 973 for a WhatsApp message. Rap music was up there, wasn't it, for a long time
0:42
So was rock and roll, I presume. I'm obviously far too young to remember the birth
0:46
or the advent of rock and roll. But things that were going to end civilisation as we know it
0:52
It's a long, long, long... Giving women the vote. Did you know that
0:56
Giving women the vote. not only was it going to end civilization as we know it
1:00
it was also going to cause wages to come crashing down. It's weird, isn't it, that relationship between racism and misogyny
1:08
Because, of course, one of the big lies about immigration is that it reduces wages of the workforce
1:13
And they said exactly the same thing about extending the vote to women back in the day
1:18
Anything else? Anything else? Anybody? Anybody? The contraceptive pill suggests Karen. Yes, I presume so
1:25
That's back to misogyny in a way, isn't it? If you want to understand the great mystery of why a certain type of public figure professes to care passionately about abortion issues
1:36
but not really one jot about children who have actually been born, particularly if they are a bit foreign
1:43
then read Zoe Williams in The Guardian this morning, a brilliant explanation of how it is simply and completely about a desire to control women
1:50
a woman who has no contraception is a woman who has no control over her body
1:56
and therefore a woman who can be subjugated by a man so there is the simple explanation
2:01
of why a certain type of right winger professes to care passionately about abortion
2:05
while caring quite clearly not a jot about actual children what else have we got
2:11
Dungeons and Dragons from two separate people I mean you must be involved in the Dungeons and Dragons world
2:17
I missed that Dungeons and Dragons, really? Anybody? Do you remember that? I work with youngster. Keith, you're old. Do you remember
2:25
the moral panic surrounding Dungeons and Dragons? And what was it supposed to do? Turn us all
2:29
into necromancers? Oh, I have no idea about that, but it's there. Ian in Bournemouth adds
2:34
hoodies to the list. Yes, you're right. Hoodies was a thing. Teenage pregnancy. I mean, kind
2:40
of. The vegan sausage roll. I think that was a very peculiar type of moral panic, Alec
2:44
confined to about seven people. Skateboarding, really? Equal marriage. I think you're probably
2:50
right? Rambo. Do you know violent normal films as opposed to like supervise? Rambo. There's lots of
2:57
things that were going to cause, um, civilization as we know it to come to a shuddering halt or
3:04
that pose such an existential threat to our young people that we would never be able to look
3:09
ourselves in the eye again after betraying and abandoning them by not nipping it in the bud
3:13
Cannabis, I suppose, one of the greatest moral panics of all. But just because all the other
3:19
ones were bogus, not in the Bill and Ted sense, in the original sense of the word, just Bill
3:26
and Ted probably, there was probably a moral panic surrounding Bill and Ted, was there the sort of celebration of a kind of slacker culture? Bodacious. Just because all the previous
3:38
moral panics were bogus, doesn't mean that the next one won't be. And I have for you
3:44
for your delectation, there are two moral panics in the news today, and one of them
3:48
is almost perfect because it comes from the actual Pope. And if you want to have the gold standard of moral panics
3:57
you want to get a little bit of papal endorsement for your moral panic
4:01
I can't remember whether the Pope waded in on the question of Bill and Ted, Rambo, Cannabis
4:07
or indeed Grand Theft Auto V. But he's weighed in on the question of AI
4:12
And we may have a little look at that story later in the week because it's not that moral panic
4:17
that I want to draw your attention to first. It is the moral panic, the continuing moral panic
4:24
surrounding social media. And we've talked about this a million times. Part of the problem I have, of course, when we turn..
4:31
I mean, listen, hey, there's money to be made in a perfectly good living to be earned
4:35
from treating subjects exactly the same, asking the same question about the same subject
4:39
over and over again for 25, 30 years. Because it's obviously my natural charm
4:44
and winning ways that you're tuning in for. not the bread and butter and the meat and drink of the conversations that we have
4:51
but in order to make myself interested, in order to keep myself interested
4:55
I like to find new ways into old conversations. I like to ask new questions, and sometimes you begin to wonder whether there are any
5:02
So it is perhaps a time for a little, a slightly different brand of honesty
5:08
from what I have deployed before, what I've shared with you before on this subject
5:11
because the weirdest thing about the social media conversations for me, especially as the father of a 20-year-old and an 18-year-old
5:22
who have gone through this world relatively unscathed, and I don't know that Mrs O'Brien or I can claim any credit for that
5:31
I mean, I'm not being unduly immodest first time for everything. We've obviously got something right
5:36
but we didn't have hard and fast rules in place. One of them was a little bit worried that she was using it too much at one point
5:43
So we bought a safe. But we lost the key. Luckily when the phone wasn't in it
5:50
So the safe was not, I mean, we got back on an even keel fairly quickly
5:55
But I was scared. You know, I think I'm using my phone too much, Dad. Do you use it as much as I use mine
6:00
Don't be ridiculous. No, but I'm still a little bit worried that I'm using my phone too much
6:04
Okay, we'll buy a safe. I'll go down Robert Dias and I'll buy a safe
6:08
forget the combination and lose the key. Lose the master key. It's still in the back of my wardrobe, actually
6:14
It'll be one of those things, won't it, in years to come. It'll turn up in some sort of house clearance
6:19
Channel 5 programme, and there's, oh, there's a safe. I've bought a safe. Oh, it's in a storage unit
6:24
What's going to be in the safe? And they'll film themselves chiselling it open, and then they'll open it
6:27
and there's nothing in there at all. I know it's real. I don't think..
6:34
I mean, is there anybody left, do you think, who listens to the subject like this
6:39
listens to a coverage of a story like this and goes, oh, I don't know what all the fuss is about
6:44
which is the traditional reaction to a moral panic for sensible people
6:48
whether it's Bill and Ted, Cannabis or Grand Theft Auto. You go, oh, I don't know what all the fuss is about
6:54
Just calm down, will you? Is there anybody still doing that? Genuine question, 03456060973
7:00
Does anybody listen to these conversations about social media and think that we have overreacted and we've all gone a little bit mad
7:08
We've all gone a bit collectively mad. For the record, I categorically don't think that
7:13
But neither, when I turn my attention to these stories, do I have a proper understanding of the dangers
7:22
I have no first or second experience of the dangers as I say So when I read that it ranks with smoking as a threat to the health of young people and this is the opinion not of an attention pundit
7:37
but of the nation's top doctors, the Academy of Medical Royal Colleges says that doctors should
7:44
routinely ask about screen time and social media use when seeing younger patients
7:51
I want to understand why there's no current consensus among the broader scientific community
7:59
that screen time overall is harmful for children and this is the really interesting bit
8:04
that I don't think we've nailed down together completely effectively before because if you are spending your life
8:11
looking at a screen and you're reading the collected works of Marcel Proust
8:15
or I don't know Plato then you're probably not doing yourself that much harm
8:21
I think this is one of the dangers of leaving so much coverage in the hands of under-experienced, over-opinionated middle-aged men like me
8:31
It is clearly not screen time and screen time alone that is the danger, that is the problem
8:37
Because that would be like saying book time is a problem. Or too much time educating themselves, the young people of today
8:47
or too much time enjoying classic literature or too much time watching Shakespeare plays on their screen
8:53
So it's not screen time per se. So I, as a doctor, could ask you as a young person
8:59
about your social media use or your screen time and I could conclude that even though you spend quite a lot of time on there
9:06
we've got nothing to worry about. Right? Banning it, as they have tried in Australia completely
9:14
and that's social media, which in and of itself is not a bad thing
9:18
It's a way of keeping in touch with people, having some friendly banter and conversation
9:23
swapping some gifts. It's also quite hard sometimes to pin down precisely what line we draw
9:30
between the good bits and the bad bits. But this idea that it is as bad for our health as smoking
9:37
fascinates me. Because I want you to tell me two things. I want you to tell me
9:44
particularly as either a parent or as a former young person who had a problem
9:50
I want you to tell me what is the worst thing about it
9:54
The job I have, and I'm not going to bore you with the details of my pre-show ramblings
10:01
but the job I have is to try to come into these conversations in a way that excludes almost nobody
10:09
There is a relatively small caucus of people I'm more than happy to exclude
10:12
and that is the people who don't understand anything but have incredibly strong opinions about everything
10:17
Luckily, there's plenty of radio shows designed for people like that. But I want to recognise the fact that some people will still be vaguely sceptical
10:26
about the scale and nature of this danger, while some people will be adamant that it is something
10:34
that needs to be absolutely dealt with now. Some people will have watched horrors unfold
10:40
other people will struggle to believe that those horrors exist. And that is precisely the parameter
10:47
or those are precisely the parameters that I want to ring-fence today's conversation with
10:52
At one extreme, you have people who have witnessed genuine horrors, either first or second-hand
10:57
You've either gone through it yourself, or you have watched someone you love
11:01
descend into the depths of what can only be described as an addiction
11:05
a horrible addiction. and then at the other extreme we have people who are still not convinced that things are quite as
11:13
serious as all of the coverage and the commentary allows and if i'm brutally honest with you
11:19
i'm in neither of those camps i haven't had the personal experience and i don't think it's likely
11:25
to be exaggerated but i think unless you've had that ringside seat that first-hand knowledge
11:31
you you will always struggle i mean think about i always talk about sex addiction at this point
11:36
in my own ruminations, because when you first hear about sex addiction
11:41
you s. You think it's an excuse that's been offered up by a man, probably, who's been caught
11:46
in flagrante delecto with a woman who is not his partner or his wife
11:50
And in order to excuse himself from the normal repercussions or ramifications of such behaviour
11:55
he claims that he's addicted to sex. And that means it's not my fault
11:59
I'm doing it. I can't help it, darling. Please forgive me. By the way, I'll be out tomorrow night
12:06
don't ask me where I'm going. So when we first heard about sex addiction
12:09
we found it funny. Or suspect, curious, suspicious. And then the more you hear about it
12:15
the more you realise it can be, like anything else that delivers a dopamine hit
12:19
it can be a truly hideous addiction, a truly hideous experience. But unless you've actually witnessed it
12:27
you're always going to have a little scintilla of scepticism, aren't you? There's always going to be a little bit at the back of your brain
12:33
that's kind of going, ah come on sex really what you're going to get addicted to next and that's when you realize it's
12:39
real because you make a list of all the other things you can get addicted to and you realize that what they have in common is that they make you feel good for a while so question number one
12:49
how how i mean what is the most dangerous thing about screen time not just social media it could
12:57
be the single most what's it like it's two questions in one here what is the most dangerous
13:03
thing about it in your opinion? And what are the experiences that your opinions are based on? Have
13:08
you been there? Have you been into or looked into the abyss? The things that the doctors are most
13:15
frightened of? Okay. 03456060973 is the number that you need. What is the worst thing about it
13:25
And then the attendant question on this. And this one probably has to be first hand rather than
13:32
second hand. And I've asked this question about pretty much every addiction
13:36
we've ever discussed together. And it is, in many ways, the most powerful
13:40
question of all. How do you know you've got a problem? And I think
13:48
what I meant when I said to you that I was going to be honest in a slightly different way
13:52
today, is that I never had a problem. So I told you, I think, I caught myself once
13:58
checking Twitter while doing the bedtime story with with one of my girls
14:04
Just like, not, obviously you can't read two things at the same time. Just double checking nothing exciting had happened while turning a page
14:11
You see what I mean? So I'm holding it up behind her head. She's lying on my chest. I'm reading her story
14:15
And I just thought to myself in that moment, let's not do that again, mate
14:19
Let's just not do that again. But that's not evidence of me having a problem or being addicted
14:25
It's evidence of me noticing that my own behavior was just a bit, a bit rank if we're honest
14:30
nipping it in the bud and behaving differently in the future. So when I've offered up that experience in the past
14:36
I've thought that I was doing something helpful, but actually I'm not
14:40
because I'm actually describing completely normal behaviour, and I'm describing behaviour management
14:45
and I'm describing a change, of course, in a healthy way, steering away from potential problems long before I got close to them
14:52
So I think that anecdote in the great scheme of things was probably worthless No doubt I spent a couple of shows congratulating myself on how insightful and helpful it was but I think it was probably worthless Because I never had a problem I didn get close to one and when I could see it from about five million miles away
15:07
I did what needed to be did to nip it in the bud. So how do you know you've got a problem
15:13
0-3-4-5-6-0-6-0-9-7-3. Or yeah, no, that doesn't just work for us. How do you know someone else
15:19
has got a problem? Might be an easier question to answer. Because addiction can be crystal clear
15:25
to a family member or a friend, a colleague or a classmate
15:29
but the actual person suffering from it may be in all sorts of depths of denial
15:36
So make a list, get a pen, take a note, all right? How do you know you've got a problem
15:42
or how do you know someone else has got a problem? And what is the worst thing about it
15:48
What is the worst thing about too much screen time? And tell me what happened to you or yours
15:54
in a way that will persuade anybody still harbouring a scintilla of scepticism about this
16:00
that it is as bad as smoking and the doctors are correct. 0-3-4-5-6-0-6-0-9-7-3
16:07
Would you like to know a little secret? When the weather is this hot, it's a little bit easier to get on the programme
16:15
than it is when the weather is relatively normal. Because unless you're sitting like I am in an air-conditioned room
16:20
you've probably got a slightly different experience going on than you do on a normal day
16:25
So don't hold back. Answer those questions after this. James O'Brien on LBC
16:31
Two minutes after the turn. Imagine you got on a bus, or more likely a train
16:35
because you can get motion sickness on a bus, or I can anyway. You got on a train or a tube, you know
16:41
if you live in a city that's got a subway, and everyone in your carriage was reading a book
16:47
What would you think? Well, I mean, you're not me, so the first thing you would think is
16:52
I wonder if any of them are reading one of my books. But if you were a normal person, the first thing you would think
16:56
if you got on a train carriage full of people reading books, well, this is rather nice. This is rather jolly
17:01
You get on a train and everyone's looking at their screens, even though you're about to become one of them. There is a sense that that's a negative
17:06
They could be, and increasingly people are, reading books on their phones as the screens get bigger, so the experience becomes more pleasurable
17:13
So how do you prove it's a problem? Either through personal experience or observation
17:19
Sarah is in Rutland. Sarah, what would you like to say? Hi, I work in SE, so I work in Corby College
17:27
Oh, yeah. So obviously they're mainly 16 to 18-year-old young people. I think, in my experience, it's making the young people
17:36
get over-engaged with a reality that isn't real, as in it's making them feel things that aren't real
17:42
It's making them feel... It makes you feel like an influencer. It makes you feel like you've got friends
17:47
It makes you feel successful. It makes you feel busy. Actually, none of those things are valid or true
17:53
and that's the danger. I'm a work experience admin person. Right. So I speak to the kids and say
18:01
have you had any work experience? Have you had a job? Yes. They'll go, no, no, no
18:06
And then when they've gone through all the no's, I go, what are you interested in? And they look at me blankly
18:12
They're not interested in anything much. How long have you been doing it? Two years
18:17
Oh, okay. So we can't make comparisons with 20 years ago then? Because, I mean, I don't think I would necessarily have been like that
18:24
when I was 16, 17, but I know plenty of people my age
18:27
would have still been looking at you blankly. So I think you're probably right
18:32
but we can't prove it conclusively. I think you might have been looking at me blankly
18:36
but I think you would have said, I'm interested in, I like listening to the radio
18:39
or you must have had an interest in the radio or something that made you want to do what you do
18:44
Yeah, you're right. It wasn't the radio, but I liked theatre, I liked books, I liked journalism
18:48
I mean, all sorts. So this is really interesting. People to say to me, I like doing that
18:55
There was one lad recently who I thought, he's a really nice kid
19:00
And I kept sort of like going, I go around the class and some of them are disengaged. Some of them will speak to me, some of them don't
19:06
But eventually I sort of dug down into what he was like. And I could see that how he spoke to me was quite theatrical, as in he held himself really well
19:14
So I said, did you like going to the theatre? And he went, what do you mean
19:18
and I said, when you were little, as in when you were younger
19:22
did you go to the theatre? And he went, do you mean like, what do you mean? I said, did you go and see shows
19:27
He said, yes. So I've got him into a local theatre. But he'd forgotten about all of that
19:32
because you forget everything, don't you? Because you're so busy being wrapped up in your phone
19:38
that you disengage from even your past. I think so. Well, you know so
19:44
You're seeing it on a daily basis and you're seeing it with other people's children as well
19:48
which I think probably gives you a slightly clearer eye or a slightly different perspective. And I'm a little bit embarrassed to admit
19:54
that I'd never really thought of it this way around before, and I've had conversations like this
19:58
on countless occasions in recent years. So what do you think it is then
20:03
I mean, because they have got friends, they're sitting next to people in class
20:07
so they're not living in atomised isolation. So what is the reality that they..
20:14
Their reality? What is the universe they inhabit? I think their reality is too big
20:21
So before I was work experience, I taught business studies, which was slightly out of my remit, to be honest
20:29
It was really, really fascinating. So the thing I loved was teaching the foundation students
20:34
who were like the students who hadn't got their maths and English could go on a foundation course before they decided what to do
20:41
They were really interesting because you could sort of see what they were doing
20:45
there was one boy that I used to be in this group of foundation students
20:49
I used to see him around college, even in the corridors on his phone
20:53
at lunch on his phone, in the class on his phone. He never came off it
20:58
And in the class, I'd make them put their phones away. He'd immediately go onto the computer and just be gaming
21:04
He couldn't actually... Playing games? Yeah. Well, you see, that's one of the things I would put on the list
21:10
of not necessarily harmful, personally. It is harmful. Well, doing anything, I said
21:14
Well, reading, but no one would say reading books for 18 hours a day was harmful, would they
21:20
But maybe it is, though. Maybe too much of anything is damaging. Yeah, actually, maybe you would if it was 18 hours a day and you had no social life and you smelt of cheese
21:28
Yeah, maybe. It would be kind of you never washed because you're too busy reading
21:31
Yeah, maybe it is possible to read too many books. And how, I mean, I actually talk to you all day because I've never really seen it from this angle before
21:40
when we have conversations as we frequently do about young people not being able to find work and
21:45
um some bloke today apparently hasn't noticed that no one has newspapers delivered anymore so
21:51
it's the death of the paper round that is fueling britain's youth unemployment crisis how much of it
21:56
is down to what you described they don't actually i don't really want to say these words out loud but
22:01
it's as if they don't actually live in the world that we live in anymore not only that though what
22:06
I was kind of hoping you'd contradict me there. I was hoping you'd contradict me there, Sarah
22:11
In the Saturday paper, husband, we have a lefty and a righty week, so we buy both papers
22:17
And I have to make my boys engage with the newspaper. I'll find one article for each of them to read
22:23
and I'll sort of go, look, you should read this. Go and sit in the garden in the sun Go and read this This is the world that around you You have to work really hard to even make them read an article But actually what if other parents don care
22:35
What if they're not doing that? What if the other parents are also on their phones
22:39
Well, that's the other point as well. Yeah. And what do you think the..
22:44
I mean, because in a way, you've kind of answered my next question by just saying all of it
22:49
All of it, James. Like one of my Brexiter callers in the olden days when I asked them what laws they were most looking forward to
22:54
not having to open anymore. So I said, what's the most dangerous thing about it
22:59
What would you say? The most dangerous thing about it is, I think it was on the Times on Saturday
23:06
the education leader, whoever he was, had researched it and found that we've got
23:12
such a disengaged youth now that they don't need money because they think they're busy
23:19
and they think they're engaged and they think it's working. They're not interested in work
23:24
So that's the most dangerous consequence? Yes. So the answer to the question
23:29
what's the most dangerous thing about it in terms of the interaction, you are actually saying all of it
23:33
It doesn't really matter what they're doing on there. No. They're doing it so much
23:37
that they have somehow detached and disengaged themselves from reality. And they feel like they're working, but they're not
23:43
They're not actually working, are they? They're not actually doing anything. I mean, Maya Angelou said
23:47
nothing works unless you do. And that's completely right. I know that because I've been self-employed and an artist
23:53
This is sensational. Keith, we've got a round of applause ready. It's so hard if you're not working
23:58
Can we give Sarah a round of applause? Don't go away yet. No, because I need to say something to you
24:01
Go on. Because what you've done, you've phoned in on the social media conversation
24:07
but you've provided a jigsaw piece I've been searching for for about two years
24:12
Whenever we talk about NEETs and the young people, and I've been searching for something
24:16
Oh, the NEET thing is bonkers. But this is it though, isn't it? Because you say, why aren't they working
24:20
How can they survive with no money? What about these, all of the things we..
24:24
They don't need to because they're not interested. I think that's the moment I've been waiting two, three years for
24:31
Is that they are living in their own mind a full existence. Yeah
24:36
They're not, and they're not really living on any level. And all I need is a sandwich. No
24:40
And I can still live with mum and dad, so I don't need to worry about, you know
24:46
Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Most of them are being met. And my sense of engagement and fulfilment is being provided by alternative, by online reality
24:57
Of course it is. And it's a nonsense. Not only that, but if you then look at the mental health figures, which are off the scale
25:05
the reason, and I know this as an artist, because obviously I've had, well, not obviously, I've had mental health issues
25:11
But the reason you have mental health issues is if you get so involved in what you're doing
25:16
You forget to drink. You forget to eat. You forget to pee. You forget to do all the things that we need to do that keep us mentally well
25:24
You forget to live. You forget to engage with your friends. You're so immersed in what you're doing
25:29
Do you know, there's a line in Martin Amis. I can't remember which book it is, but he's describing a bloke who is completely addicted to nicotine
25:38
Yeah. And he's on a plane. It's back in the days when you could smoke on planes. and he'd say usually he'd be about halfway through a cigarette
25:44
when he started looking forward to the next one. And that sort of just popped into my mind
25:51
when you were describing the nature of addiction because, of course, we're having a conversation about social media
25:56
being in the eyes of medics, the new smoking. That's one of the most insightful calls I've taken in a very long time, Sarah
26:03
Thank you. Thanks for your time. No, well, thank you for yours. It is 10.31
26:08
There it is, the missing piece of the jigsaw on the neat question, possibly
26:12
I mean, feel free to come and rain on my parade. But, of course, we do need specific answers
26:18
to these questions as well. You can't just shout all of it at the problem
26:21
even though, in some sense, that will be true. How do you know you've got a problem
26:26
0345, or how do you know your kid has got a problem? 0345 6060973
26:31
Dominic Ellis is here now with your headline. James O'Brien on LBC
26:35
Here's 10.35. I knew, I knew I wasn't going mad. how bored you must have been with me
26:41
wanging on every time neats were in the news about how there has to be something
26:45
and then I gave up, didn't I? I did a phone-in about six months ago
26:50
and I said to you, oh, let's stop looking for the Rosetta Stone, let's stop looking for the
26:53
skeleton key, there's going to be a million different answers to the question of why a million young
26:58
people are not in education, employment or training but I was kind of, in my heart of hearts
27:02
I felt and I'll tell you this now in my heart of hearts I felt like a failure
27:07
I felt I'd let you down I felt I'd let LBC down
27:11
but most of all I felt I'd let myself down because when I have it in my bones
27:16
that there's got to be an answer somewhere there's something going on that I haven't got to yet
27:21
there usually is and Sarah just got me there on a phone-in that's got nothing to do with needs
27:26
and everything to do with social media but Maslow's hierarchy of needs
27:30
as you probably know is a sort of classic psychology meme or trope
27:38
which defines humanity's needs. So as you move through what you need
27:45
so you become more free to indulge your emotional side. So your basic physiological needs are air, food, water, shelter, clothing
27:56
sleep, and ultimately reproduction for the survival of the species. And then once you've got that in place
28:01
you can begin to worry about security, employment, resources, property, and health
28:06
and then once you've got safety in place you move on to love and belonging which will be friendship
28:11
love intimacy family community and then esteem which is respect status freedom recognition
28:18
self-esteem in other words and when all of those are in place you can move towards self-actualization
28:23
and and and the way that sarah just described the engagement of a young person with a universe
28:29
in their phone, a universe on their screens, is an almost false consciousness. It feels like
28:37
they've got all of those things. Their physiological needs are being met, and they don't need
28:41
particularly greater ones, because they're not big physiological needs. So much of their inner
28:46
life is engaged with their on-screen universe that they don't need the things that we needed
28:51
when we were their age. So security, it feels like it's there. Property, employment, it feels
28:56
like it's there. You were employed. I'm busy. I'm online. And then
29:00
you've got friendship, love, intimacy, family, community. They think they're getting that met. They think
29:04
those needs are being met as well. And so they actually believe they're self-actualised
29:10
So a lot of people are not sitting there going why can't I get a job? Why can't I get a job
29:14
They're sitting there going I'm self-actualised. My life is complete. It's all on my screen
29:20
It's all on my phone. And of course, it's a bit like, what's it a bit
29:24
like living on spangles? So you think you're full, and you think you're nourished
29:29
but you're actually getting iller and iller and iller because your sense of satisfaction is an illusion
29:38
Oh, boy. Priscilla is an Ealing. Priscilla, what made you pick up the phone? Yeah, I had to pick up the phone
29:43
I'm a child psychotherapist working with children and young people, and some of the stuff you said really kind of piqued me and interested me
29:53
When you say that we wouldn't be complaining if children were reading books all the time, imagine..
29:59
scenario that you have your child or a child that walks into a library and there's a huge range of
30:06
subjects and topics and styles of writing and and and and different takes on the world
30:13
if if that child happened to pick up a book that was about um the fact that men were brighter than
30:21
women or the fact that your boyfriend should decide how your relationship works or or was
30:28
about something dark like death and divorce now that might be fine for that one book but if that
30:34
meant that the next time they walked into the library all the other topics and styles of writing
30:39
had been removed and the one that was just a library full of that same dark or slightly skewed
30:47
or not very balanced topic and therefore the next book and the next book and the next book was
30:54
literally being filtered for them then i think you would be really worried about the fact that
31:00
they were reading a lot and if you so that's the algorithm okay and that is absolutely what
31:06
is happening so the moment a young person is worried about what they look like or their body
31:11
or whether what their boyfriend wants them to do in bed or or how their relationship works
31:16
that algorithm is taking them down there and if you put that together with the fact that there is
31:22
no longer as much balancing out in real life. You know, kids
31:28
they're not hanging out in real life as much. Certainly not as much as when we were young
31:34
You know, they go home and then they go on screen. So where is the balancing out happening
31:41
It just... And of course, as with all the biggest social problems, some people are fine
31:48
You know, some kids are still going out to play football or go to dance class or hang out with their friends and so you see the ones that are fine
31:54
and you think that the ones who aren't fine must somehow be responsible for their own plight when they're not
31:58
because it's like blaming someone for falling down a hole that was
32:01
hidden and covered Even the ones that are fine I think the
32:07
load on their parents to ensure that they're fine is right now enormous
32:13
I mean like absolutely enormous I work with incredibly, I work with
32:17
one for one with children but I also work separately with parents often and i have parents who really really struggle to keep their children
32:26
in a balanced world and i have an amazing set of parents where they do a regular journey
32:34
with their child so that they have got that lovely um time to check in with each other
32:40
because the parents work very hard and they were asked to give some other children a lift
32:46
and those other children don't have the limits of screen. And the parents I work with said
32:56
these kids sat in the back of my car with my child who doesn't have a smartphone
33:01
and they sat on their smartphone for the entire journey and didn't talk about the sport they were about to play
33:09
They didn't talk about what had happened at school that week. They didn't make conversation with me
33:14
they didn't plan how they were going to play the match. So this isn't about..
33:19
And that's terrible. Of course it's terrible. It's also very rude. But, again, not something the child would probably have even been aware of
33:27
We're not then talking about something that can be repaired by a little bit of tweaking at the edges
33:32
or cinema-style ratings. We're talking about something existential. Well, yes, but I think what would make it so much easier for parents
33:43
who are all pretty fried at the edges financially and trying to be amazing parents
33:49
You know, don't forget, as hard as life was, if you said goodbye to your kid at nine in the morning
33:55
and they came back at six at night, you know, you did have a bit more headspace
33:59
I think if we can make some laws about this, I understand the problems with driving it underground
34:05
and I understand that some people interpret the results coming from Australia as not great
34:11
Personally, I don't. But actually, I think that that gives parents a really big boost because it says the government is on my team
34:23
Yeah, I agree with you. I have more rights to say to my child, no, it's much harder if it's legal
34:30
And I mean, there's a fantastic school near here. And in year seven, there's three children without a smartphone
34:38
Well, do you know how hard that is if you're one of those three children? and there might be many poor parents
34:42
who would have followed that through. But they just couldn't bear the peer pressure
34:46
and the fact that... Yeah, and it's not illegal. It's not illegal, so why would we do that
34:50
Yeah, I came home from school at that age and told my dad I was the only boy in the class who didn't have a mini motorbike
34:55
but I was lying. I mean, if I had been the only boy in the class who didn't have a mini motorbike
34:59
he might have actually bought me one. And it is really awful because you genuinely miss out
35:05
Yes. What are the worst... But I think... What are the... I mean, I don't want you to..
35:10
I mean, obviously, you're not going to betray any professional confidences, but what could a parent listening to this
35:16
who's just started to worry, thinking, as I have in the past
35:20
that I think we've missed this, I think we've dodged this bullet, I think we're all right, what should they be looking out for
35:26
I mean, or is that a stupid question? Because if your kid is sitting in the back of someone else's car
35:30
tapping away on their phone for the entire journey, there and back, while not speaking to their friend
35:34
or the people who've been kind enough to transport him, then if you can't spot a problem there, you're never going to spot it
35:39
What would you look for? I think I'd be looking for the obvious
35:44
which is like the sheer amount of time there on it. I'm looking for views that become more rigid
35:52
more entrenched. Radicalisation. Radicalisation, of course. I mean, that's, again, two superb calls today
36:00
I've been uncharacteristically quiet during both of them because you marry your contribution to Sarah's
36:05
And it is exactly that idea of going into a library and being absolutely bombarded with really unhealthy stuff
36:12
So that's why the doctors comparing it to smoking are talking about the radicalisation of children
36:20
the cases where children have joined suicide pacts or killed family pets after watching content online
36:25
And they're not going to do that after they've watched it once. They're going to do that after they've been persuaded that it's normal
36:29
because they've watched so much of it. And that's where people like Andrew Tate make their money
36:34
and do their disgusting business by just subsuming, utterly, utterly subsuming somebody
36:41
to the point where they think everybody's like that and that is normal. And you're so detached from what is normal
36:47
you end up not only in danger yourself but posing a danger to others
36:52
So as Priscilla says, that notion of an outright ban for under-16s
36:57
you can see why the Prime Minister, albeit that he's quite a wobbly man at the best of times
37:01
he is reportedly wobbling on this. his original opposition to an outright ban
37:05
I read, is beginning to soften. It is 10.45. Thank you, Priscilla
37:10
James O'Brien on LBC. It's 10.48. Shall we squeeze in a little multiple-choice question
37:18
I think we probably should. This extraordinary saga involving Nigel Farage and million gifted to him in secret by a Thai billionaire who would make untold fortunes if Farage were to introduce some of the legislation he said he intends to introduce in the event of becoming
37:38
Prime Minister with regards to cryptocurrency and stable coins. His desperate attempts, I mean
37:43
absolutely desperate attempts to change the narrative, to get people focusing on a different
37:49
element of the story or a different story entirely. Last time he was in this sort of
37:54
bother. He invented an assassination attempt. I don't know if you remember that. He claimed that
37:58
he'd been told by a French mechanic that his wheel nuts had been tampered with after his wheel fell
38:03
off while he was driving down a motorway. Unfortunately for him, they tracked down the
38:07
mechanic, French journalists, and it turned out, A, he couldn't speak English, and B, he'd said
38:11
absolutely nothing of the sort, and Farage had been lying through his teeth. This weekend, he
38:17
attempted to distract attention from the obvious inappropriateness of accepting a secret £5
38:23
million pound gift from a thai-based billionaire and i've got three options for you in case you
38:28
missed the story what do you think he did do you think he provided all of the receipts and bank
38:32
statements showing that he has spent all of the money on his security detail and absolutely none
38:38
of it on any of the various houses he and his girlfriend have bought for cash um in the period
38:44
of time immediately after he received the five million pounds so option one he's provided all
38:48
the receipts and all of the bank statements and he clearly did absolutely nothing wrong That's option one
38:54
Option two, did he claim that his phone had been secretly hacked by Russian spies
39:00
but he couldn't tell you who had done it because they go to a different school? Is it option B, that he claimed his phone had been..
39:07
I don't know why this would matter, of course, because it doesn't matter how the information came into the public domain
39:13
It's the fact that he took £5 million secretly from a Thai-based billionaire
39:16
set to make untold fortunes from legislation he subsequently promised to introduce
39:20
but is it that his phone was hacked by Russian spies, although he can't provide any evidence at the moment because he's very busy
39:28
Or is it, see, he has decided on reflection that it was wrong of him to take the money
39:33
and he's going to give the entire £5 million to charity? So, Nigel Farage and the continuing saga, the Count of Dodgy Crypto
39:41
and the continuing tale of his £5 million. What is the latest chapter in the story after he claimed it was for security
39:48
and then he claimed it was a gift for Brexit and then he claimed it was this and that. What's the latest chapter
39:53
Is it A, he's publishing all of the receipts and bank statements to prove that all of the money was spent on the security detail
40:00
despite the fact that he still can't hold surgeries in Clacton because he's worried about security
40:06
Of course, that was a lie as well. He claimed he'd been warned by the authorities that his security was somehow compromised
40:11
and all of the authorities came forward immediately and said, no, he hasn't, not by us
40:15
So is it A, that he's provided all of the receipts and all of the bank statements
40:19
and all of the necessary financial documentation to prove that all of the money has been spent on his security
40:25
and absolutely none of it was spent on the various houses bought for cash by him and his girlfriend in the ensuing period
40:31
Is it B, Russian spies hacked my phone, but I can't show you the proof of that because..
40:38
Or is it C, I accept, I should never have accepted the money and I've decided to give it all to a charity
40:43
that exclusively looks after white people. So is it A, receipts and bank statements
40:50
Is it B, Russian hackers? Or is it C, give all the money to charity? Answers on a postcard, please
40:56
It's 10.52. Back to social media addictions and the whys, the whats and the wherefores
41:01
Dean's in Bournemouth. Dean, what would you like to say? Hi, James. First time caller
41:05
Welcome. Slightly nervous because I might waffle, but... Well, you're in good company, Dean
41:09
and I shall reel you in if you do. Go on. What made you pick up the phone? So, talking about the addiction, how can you tell
41:17
Yes. My daughter, 15, spiralling out of control, lives with her mum, no boundaries
41:24
on social media from all day, all day. You know, 4.30 in the morning, she'll be posting stuff
41:31
because there are no boundaries. Yeah, this isn't an opportunity to have a go at her mum
41:36
You know that, Dean, don't you? I do. Good, carry on. Yeah. So she said, my daughter said to the CAMS, which is like a social worker
41:47
Children and young adults, mental health services. Yeah. She needs her phone. She needs a social media for her anxiety
41:55
Your phone's going nuts at the moment as well, isn't it? Buzzing away in the background. She needs her phone for anxiety
42:02
Yes. To help with the anxiety. And because it relieves the stresses of her day
42:09
I mean, that's addiction. Well, it is a sort of addiction, isn't it
42:16
But I suppose it can be true at the same time as well. In our own mind, it's the only time when she's calm
42:22
or when she's not worrying about other things because she's so buried in her..
42:27
It would be like being addicted to... That's like an alcoholic, isn't it? Yes, I think it is. That is just like an alcoholic
42:31
because, you know, an alcoholic will say the same thing. What does she do on there? she's looking at shorts on
42:39
YouTube and TikTok so what relatively innocuous stuff funny stuff or dangerous stuff
42:46
do we know well I'm not 100% sure what she's looking at
42:51
but I don't like as a father what she's posting about herself
42:54
like what kind of thing well herself in makeup with lyrics of
43:04
yeah, well, I don't want a 15-year-old saying explicit lyrics. No. Stuff about suicide
43:14
I'd be more worried about that than the makeup, mate. Oh, well, not when she's talking about sucking sausages
43:20
Okay. It's just funny, you get an instinct for people sometimes. I wish you well with that, Dean
43:26
10.54 is the time. Liam is in Newark on Trent. Liam, what would you like to say
43:31
Hi, James. Pleasure to speak to you. We'll see. Carry on. What made you pick up the phone
43:36
Well, I mean, Sarah and... I forgot the name. Priscilla. Priscilla. Maybe I should have just hung up on..
43:44
You and me both, actually. Yeah, and the last lad. Well, I've taught in SE for 20 years
43:51
so my experience of teaching 16 to 19-year-olds stems back to 2007
43:56
which is just before sort of smartphones came into common usage. Perfect timescale
44:02
So, yeah, so anecdotally, you know, I could plot you a graph that shows a massive decrease from sort of 2008 with anxiety, mental health, and various other issues that students have had since that time period
44:20
Correlation is not causation. I know. But I think it sometimes that correlation and causation are partners
44:28
they are actually going hand in hand even if it's hard to prove and I think there comes a point where it is almost
44:34
like trying to turn back waves turn back the tide to claim that there can't
44:38
possibly be a link between the two things how would you explain that link
44:42
why would the anxiety of a young person increase exponentially according to the amount
44:46
of time they're on their phone? well I mean I've got so much to say on the subject
44:51
it's a bit like you talked about smoking earlier I don think there much evidence to prove that smoking causes cancer but we all know it does cause cancer I think there probably is evidence to prove it these days but there wasn when it first started and there was huge amounts of effort put into pushing back
45:07
And with UPS now and food, is that sort of... Why are some kids all right with it then
45:12
Because this is, again, with addiction, you know, some people can take highly addicted drugs once or twice
45:19
and not come away with a massive dependency. Some people are doomed for love
45:23
So why do you think some children are... Well, I think there needs to be a predisposition
45:28
to have either an addictive personality or to fall into the tracks of the algorithm
45:33
The same with smoking. You could smoke 20 a day for 40 years and not have any effects
45:38
but that doesn't mean that it's not bad for the general population
45:44
I've got students who have eight hours plus screen time a day
45:48
I do a registered theme every morning and every year, at the start of the year
45:53
I'll say, what's your screen time? Is it under five hours? And you'll have a couple of students
45:58
Like you say, there are those students who are just capable of regulating
46:02
their social media use and their phone use, whether that's just them or their parents
46:08
and boundaries that were set in place when they were younger. And equally, I suppose some children who were on there
46:13
what we would consider to be loads, but it's not having the impacts on them
46:17
that it's having on other people as well. This isn't a science, is it
46:21
No, it's not a science. at all. If I put 100 children in front
46:25
of you, could you tell the ones that have got 7 or 8 hours
46:29
a day of screen time? I would give myself a good 80% hit rate on that
46:35
I think I'd probably agree. I mean, obviously it affects their grades that they
46:39
get. You know, I could do that little register at the start of the year
46:43
and those who have got 8 hours plus screen time, their grades are going
46:47
to be affected by that. For us, let's talk about an old fella like me with no
46:51
children, which is not me, who just sort of thinks the world can't have changed that much
46:55
since I was young. And just think back to Sarah's call and the idea
46:59
this idea that is going to stay with me for a very long time. That somehow
47:03
on some level they are fulfilled and self-actualised but on another level they're just completely
47:09
and obviously not. What would be a sign of that? What would be
47:13
the thing that you would absolutely not have seen 20 years ago
47:17
but you are seeing on a daily basis now? Just in terms of interaction
47:21
or simple behaviour. Yeah. Well, I mean, as a sort of route to that, when we went to school, I mean, I'm 46, a little bit younger than you, but obviously we didn't have social media
47:35
But we were comparing ourselves to the people in our school, in our local vicinity
47:42
And there's a hierarchy there. Yes. Now teenagers are rating themselves against literally everybody in the world
47:49
and through the filter of social media, which is inauthentic. So they are aspiring to this ideal, this lifestyle
47:59
that doesn't really exist for those people that they're aspiring to be like either
48:03
So you can think of, you know, that hideous Tate character with all his cars and his misogyny and thinking that is normal
48:11
or thinking I will only be successful if I can be like him. And then for young women, it would be physically unattainable ideals
48:18
and it would be the notion that unless you are drop-dead gorgeous
48:24
you're somehow worthless, and these constant comparisons where you're almost always going to come up short
48:30
Exactly. If you're comparing yourself to 3 billion people on social media
48:35
and you have low self-esteem already, that's not going to be a benefit to you
48:41
That's not going to do you any good. It's not a moral panic, is it, Liam? Well, I think it's an existential crisis
48:48
I think it's an existential crisis. I mean, the problem is, of course, that all moral panics were existential crises
48:54
in the minds of the people who were panicking. But this one, as I said at the top of the hour
48:58
this one feels real. I presume it's a rhetorical question, this, but would you welcome an outright ban
49:05
or really stringent regulation now? 100%. I mean, yeah, I've got a nine-year-old and a six-year-old
49:11
and I am telling everybody that I am not letting them get social media
49:17
until they can afford to buy their own. Are you going to be that dad? I'm going to be a Victorian dad
49:22
Not Victorian. Well, good luck to you, seriously. I mean, it will come back to you in a couple of years, baby
49:29
But you might not have to by then. By then it may have been. And that was the brilliant point I think Priscilla made
49:34
is that it's such a lonely path for a parent to go down at the moment. You know, there was a kid on our street when we were growing up
49:41
whose parents wouldn't let them watch ITV. I always remember it. A, because my parents were not by any means overly lax or liberal
49:50
My bedtime was earlier than most other children that we'd be playing out with on the street. But they weren't allowed to watch ITV
49:55
And the other reason I remember it is because my sister and I were in the crowd on Tiswas once
49:59
and they weren't even allowed to watch that. So the parent who takes a moral stand
50:04
I mean, for the record, I think that was a ridiculous moral stand, does tread a very lonely path
50:10
even when they are, in this case, with the phones doing the right thing. James O'Brien on LBC
50:16
Five minutes after 11 is the time. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
50:22
Later this hour, we'll head up to Makerfield, where that by-election, of course, awaits
50:27
for an update from our correspondent, Chris Chambers. Before that, don't let me forget to answer the multiple-choice question
50:36
that I shared with you a moment ago. I want to talk next. In fact, I was about to go off on one then. Could you tell
50:42
I was about to start going through the multiple choice questions again. Because there's a bit of me that doesn't want to have the conversation that we're going to have next
50:49
And it kicked in on Friday as well before we went away for the weekend. When Sheila did tackle this question and did go all in on it
50:58
And I kind of knew in my bones that I should have done. But some stories are just so grim and so gross that I kind of, I don't want to talk about them
51:08
It's almost, I don't think I'm protecting my mental health or anything like that, but I am insulating myself slightly from the horrors of humanity
51:16
And you can probably guess what story I am talking about now
51:20
not least because it was, of course, I mentioned in your news bulletin
51:27
And this is a big trigger warning. We're going to be talking about sex crimes and young people
51:33
in ways that, as I've just told you, I wish I wasn't. I wish we weren't
51:38
three teenage boys convicted over the rapes of two girls, right? Separate incidents, only two months apart
51:49
And I think the reason I find this... There's a million reasons
51:54
I'll stop talking about myself and talk about the people involved. I cannot begin to imagine what those young women went through
52:04
by way of finding the courage and the determination to go to court
52:12
It is, by all accounts, a hideous experience, underpinned by the knowledge that statistically convictions are unlikely
52:22
albeit that in this case the fact that the culprits had filmed their crimes must have given the prosecution a fairly good prospect of success
52:35
But nonetheless, to relive those experiences must just be beyond the comprehension of anybody who hasn't been through it
52:47
I just find it almost inconceivable what it took for them to do that
52:53
one of them 15 at the time of the assault one of them 14 and i'm not a fan as you know of
53:03
retrospective re-sentencing led by media i think it usually involves provocative headlines that
53:12
have not been written by people who were in court for the entire case and um
53:17
and it's the business model of the tabloid isn't it particularly the right-wing tabloid but on a
53:25
case like this perhaps not always that the idea that the judges are all out of touch and ridiculous
53:30
and the people who have spent their lives working in the criminal justice system don't know as much
53:34
as a daily mail columnist so they should be putting this back in front of the attorney general
53:39
asap in order to get a much stricter sentence for the for the people involved i don't like those
53:44
stories generally but of course even a stop clock is right twice a day and and i had to i've read it
53:51
twice i read it last week sometimes you're looking in a story for the thing that makes it make sense
53:57
you know that sort of plaintive whale uh make it make sense make it make sense
54:03
and i couldn't find the thing that made it make sense i read the words of the judge involved who
54:11
did not send these boys into custody. They were convicted over the rapes of two girls
54:19
two months apart, and they were not sent to any form of custody, any form of jail. In fact, the
54:27
judge praised them for the way they conducted themselves during the trial, telling two 15-year-olds
54:36
who filmed their crimes that they had, quote, done very well, end quotes
54:40
with the restrictions throughout the trial and sentenced them instead to youth rehabilitation orders
54:48
A third boy, convicted over his involvement in the second attack, received a non-custodial sentence
54:56
He said, I want to avoid criminalising these children unnecessarily, and he addressed them directly and said
55:03
I have to remember that you are not small adults. And the thing is, of course
55:13
that it is only last week or the week before that we were discussing David Lammy's contemplation
55:20
of a rise in the age of criminal responsibility and the idea that young people are more aware of their crimes
55:29
than the law currently allows. and i and i i was on the side of the if you like the sensibles on there i'm going to be completely
55:42
honest with you i could sit here now and conduct a very philosophical and intellectual justification
55:47
of why you shouldn't treat 15 year olds like 50 year olds when it comes to crimes i even have a
55:52
zinger prepared would you like to hear my zinger the zinger that you have prepared when someone
55:56
says to you as they do well when i was 14 i knew the difference between right and wrong
56:00
and now I'm 40, so why should I be treated differently at 14 from how I was at 40
56:05
To which you respond by saying, with a sincere tone, are you really telling me that you haven't matured or developed or learned
56:13
or grown emotionally or intellectually in any way since you were 14 years old
56:18
You haven't made any improvements intellectually or emotionally. You haven't got more empathy
56:25
You haven't come to a better understanding of the world. because if you're going to stop at 14 why not stop at 4
56:31
why not go back to the time when your parents had to teach you not to drink out of the toilet or whatever it is that you would do without guidance
56:37
you're honestly telling me that you're exactly the same person now that you were at 13
56:42
and therefore you shouldn't have any different treatment at all because that's just stupid right
56:46
and you know that it's stupid as soon as someone is kind enough to point it out to you
56:50
of course we are different people so I can do that and then a story like this falls in front of me
56:58
and I can't say what I want to say but the feelings that you must
57:06
and you know that they're not they're not what's the question that I want
57:13
well they're not feelings that you should be proud of but you can't deny that they're there
57:19
I'd do harm to these children I would do harm to these children
57:23
whether it's locking them up and throwing away the proverbial key or, you know, these are the stories
57:29
these are the crimes where you can suddenly understand why when I was a young man
57:34
people would talk about bringing back the birch or some form of, you know
57:38
corporal punishment outside schools. And it's a hideous thought. It's Sharia law territory, actually, in some ways
57:47
It's what the Taliban does. Actually, no, that's probably not actually accurate, is it
57:51
Given that the kind of crimes we're talking about wouldn't be crimes necessarily
57:56
But listen, I'm waffling because I find the subject matter so grim and so gross
58:01
And I find the tension between what my head tells me, you can't treat 14-year-olds like 40-year-olds
58:06
and what my heart tells me, which is that these boys should be locked up for the longest time
58:10
because they clearly pose a threat to other... And yet I wasn't in court, so I'm not listening to the testimony
58:16
I'm not listening to the evidence and the judges. So that's question number one
58:24
Make it make sense. remind me why justice by tabloid is a bad thing
58:33
Make it make sense. 0345 6060 973. I'm not sure you can
58:39
but I have no experience of youth rehabilitation orders. I have no experience of youth courts
58:44
I have no experience of these sort of community orders and the arsenal that a judge has when it comes to..
58:55
I can't. Sorry, I can't do it. I actually can't. I'm trying
58:59
I want to have a conversation in the realms of intelligence, if you like
59:06
and understanding and knowledge. And that's why it's important to have it, because at the moment I've got none
59:10
and I've got no intelligence, I've got no knowledge, I've got no understanding of how this could have happened
59:15
There it is. I cannot get my head around for a moment how this could have happened
59:21
how you can be reading a headline about teenage boys raping teenage girls
59:27
and, I mean, however restrictive or stringent a youth rehabilitation order may be
59:35
walking away with a slap on the wrist while those young women are consigned to a lifetime of unbearable memory
59:46
180 days of intensive surveillance and supervision. A three-year youth rehabilitation order coupled with 180 days of intensive supervision and surveillance
1:00:00
Don't get it. Some of the extenuating factors mentioned by the judge
1:00:04
include the fact that one of these boys was in the bottom 1% of his contemporaries
1:00:09
in terms of IQ. They mentioned an ADHD diagnosis, which is, to me
1:00:16
incredibly bad news for everybody with an ADHD diagnosis that wouldn't go anywhere near behaviours like this
1:00:22
in a billion years, any more than people who haven't got an ADHD diagnosis ever would
1:00:27
And the youngest boy was described as having low intellectual capacity and limited understanding of consent
1:00:35
The reason all of that was mentioned in court was because it made him particularly susceptible
1:00:39
to peer pressure. Make it make sense. 0345 6060 973. So, yeah, this matters
1:00:52
I can feel, I can hear the intellectual conversation taking shape, even as a large part of me doesn't actually want it to
1:01:00
But these are the moments where you have to, at least I think these are the moments where you have to tamp down your more feral responses to things
1:01:07
I'm talking about my feral responses now, my primal responses to this story
1:01:11
You have to tamp them down. That's what civilization is. So it is relevant that one of the boys
1:01:19
was quite spectacularly, can I say, unintelligent? Yes, had spectacularly low intellectual capacity and therefore would struggle even to understand what consent was
1:01:34
Now, listen, you can poo-poo that, but it's real. It exists. And the judge concluded that it happened in this case
1:01:44
I don't know quite what the rationale was for not sending the first one into custody
1:01:49
custody, but that is the rationale for not sending the younger of these two boys into custody
1:01:58
Let me get that the right way around. The first one had ADHD and long-standing anxiety
1:02:03
diagnosed, which made him more open to peer pressure. The second one had such a low IQ
1:02:09
and also had an ADHD diagnosis that his low intellectual capacity was linked to his ability
1:02:17
to understand consent. So one of them is of... Two, I don't want to say words like stupid
1:02:26
but why would I worry about the feelings of boys like this? Answer, because they're children, James
1:02:32
So the youngest boy had low intellectual capacity, which interfered with his ability to understand consent
1:02:38
and the other boy was so susceptible to peer pressure that he would have gone along with what the first boy did
1:02:43
There it is. That's the reason why they're not being treated in the same way that they would be if they were as bright as buttons
1:02:50
clearly and demonstrably fully cognizant and understanding of what they were doing
1:02:54
and therefore somehow more responsible for their actions than somebody more intelligent
1:03:03
And do you know, we talked about Derek Bentley and Christopher Craig last week
1:03:07
one of the last men in England to be hanged, despite the fact he didn't hurt anybody
1:03:12
He just shouted, let him have it, Chris, when his accomplice, in a, I think, a factory, attempted burglary of a factory
1:03:18
pointed a gun at a police officer or a security guard. Forgive me, I haven't got all of the details at my fingertips
1:03:24
But because Christopher Craig, I'm pretty sure that was his name, was below the age of criminal consent
1:03:30
and Derek Bentley, who was educationally subnormal, if that's the correct phrase to use
1:03:34
who was of low intellectual capacity, Derek Bentley shouted, let him have it, Chris
1:03:40
and the court debated over whether he meant let him have the gun, Chris, or let him have a bullet, Chris
1:03:45
and the court decided that he meant let him have it, as in shoot him, he was shot
1:03:49
The man who pulled the trigger didn't go to jail because of his age. The man who didn't pull the trigger got hanged
1:03:56
because of the age of criminal responsibility, despite the fact that he was of limited intellectual capacity
1:04:03
And the story is heartbreaking. Because I saw a film, actually, based on this
1:04:10
and I read up about it. Let him have it. the film was called, appropriately enough
1:04:14
And you come away feeling desperately sorry for Derek Bentley. His sister, I think, campaigned for years
1:04:19
for posthumous clemency. And the fact that he was both susceptible to peer pressure
1:04:27
deeply impressionable, and of low intellectual capacity, all worked. They all resonated with me
1:04:33
in that case. Which means that they're not resonating with me in this case because the
1:04:38
crime is different. And that makes me wrong. Because either these things matter when you are sentencing somebody for doing something, or they do not
1:04:52
These things matter. Low intellectual capacity. Diagnoses that lead to particular susceptibility to peer pressure
1:05:01
So in the case of Derek Bentley, that all matters. And most people don't argue with that anymore
1:05:05
Although I imagine he was a subject of tabloid fury at the time. and I mean
1:05:11
I'm not here to play top trumps with hideous crimes, shooting a police officer
1:05:15
or raping teenage girls you can't say one of them is a worse crime
1:05:19
than the other or a better crime but that's the point, it doesn't matter what the crime is
1:05:23
the question is about the age of criminal responsibility and that is why
1:05:29
I think that on this occasion I think I'm on the side of the tabloid mob
1:05:37
and so it would appear is the Prime Minister. It's just been reported that Sir Keir Starmer has announced
1:05:44
that the two teenage boys spared jail will be sent to the Court of Appeal
1:05:49
after being reviewed by the Attorney-General, Lord Hermer, for being too lenient
1:05:53
The Prime Minister said there are questions about the sentence. And I quote the Prime Minister, and this has just happened now while we've been talking about it
1:05:59
The Attorney-General has power to refer a case to Court of Appeal if the Attorney-General thinks that the sentence is too lenient
1:06:05
the Attorney General has now exercised that power so I can announce that the case now will go to a court of appeal
1:06:12
and that is clearly the right outcome to be reconsidered we're already in that court of appeal in a way
1:06:20
we're already considering it convictions are in place, it's a question of sentencing
1:06:25
so you can say what you want within the normal bounds of decency
1:06:30
Make It Make Sense 03456060973. And if we all accept that a limited intellectual capacity
1:06:41
and a particular susceptibility to peer pressure are viable mitigations in a defence of a convicted criminal
1:06:52
we accept that that is relevant to sentencing. In other cases, then we have to accept it in this one
1:07:02
No. We just do, right? We can't let the hideousness of this crime, the fact that the rape of young women offends our sensibilities on every imaginable level
1:07:13
And as far as I'm aware, because of course for some people the rape of young women offends their sensibilities directly according to the ethnicity of the perpetrators
1:07:22
That very much the mood of the moment in Brexit Britain So I can categorically tell you I couldn give two figs about the ethnicity of the perpetrators in this or any other case Scumbag rapists deserve the worst that the law can throw at them
1:07:37
regardless of whether they're members of the EDL or members of a, I don't know, a bizarre sect
1:07:45
It's not the ethnicity, it's not the identity, it's not the colour, the politics of a criminal
1:07:49
in these kind of cases that we should care about. It's the victims. and these victims appear to me to have been horribly let down, horribly let down
1:07:58
Make it make sense. 0345 6060 973. It's 11.23 and that was, just so you're clear, that was breaking news there
1:08:07
about the sentencing being referred, being reviewed by the Attorney General and referred to the Court of Appeal
1:08:14
James O'Brien on LBC. It's 25 minutes after 11. and it is, from the outside, an almost obscenely lenient sentence
1:08:24
which is why my first call to you this morning is to make it make sense
1:08:28
Dan's in Sutton. Dan, what would you like to say? Mr. O'Brien, we've spoken many times before
1:08:33
Don't say it like that. We have, but it's chovial bands out the way first
1:08:37
It is boiling hot. So I've got a daughter. Go on. She's only 16, and in my heart says
1:08:43
if it happened to her, these scumbags would never come out in the light of day again. Yeah. But in my head, it says the judge done the right thing
1:08:48
background I'm sure you know, ex-prison officer, worked in youth courts, crown courts, county courts
1:08:53
you name it, I've worked in most of them. I remember, the prisons we spoke about last time
1:09:00
Indeed. So these scumbags go to prison for 10 years, they don't get the help they need inside, they come out worse
1:09:07
pre-offending rates, what, 80-90% still? So if they're going to sit in themselves 24 hours a day, what is the point
1:09:13
Yeah, but we could say that about any criminal. I agree with that 100%
1:09:17
That's why they need to create some sort of courses or provide more staff to deal with these animals
1:09:24
They need some sort of... They need help. You say one of them is very unintellectual
1:09:30
So you could tie it into social media in a way. Do they see this crap online by those..
1:09:34
Just be careful with your... I mean, it's not the rudest word under the sun
1:09:39
but just don't make me nervous. Preachers online like Tate and stuff
1:09:43
through all this stuff out in these children's minds. We know children
1:09:47
they say children don't develop until they're 21. Their brain doesn't stop growing
1:09:52
So if they're seeing this stuff every day thinking that's the normal path of the course, why have they filmed it
1:09:57
Again, for clicks and likes. I'm being a bit slow on the uptake today as well
1:10:02
I spent the entire first time being educated. But what you're suggesting
1:10:06
is that it's a form of radicalisation and that they have been persuaded
1:10:10
into a position where they think this sort of behaviour is not just normal
1:10:15
but to be rewarded, because that's what they see online with some of the residents with toxic masculinity
1:10:21
that we're all aware of. So you said nobody sat in the court
1:10:25
nobody sat in the court, nobody sat in their pre-sentence reports. When I worked in the courts, the only person that would hear everything
1:10:29
would be the doc officer, which I was for two and a half, three years. So they sent the jury out
1:10:35
then they would ask questions, but the jury would never know the questions asked, as I'm sure you've been told before
1:10:39
So any person, So if you sat on the whole trial, so it goes from arrested, police station, magistrates, court
1:10:47
so nobody would hear that part of it. The barristers for each child wouldn't hear that. It would come from their solicitor
1:10:51
So when you get to Crown Court, you sit down, there's a docker of yourself, they come in and they have so many different aspects before you even get to trial
1:11:00
You wouldn't hear any of that stuff. So we have no idea what these boys have been. I'm saying that what they've done is discussed in their..
1:11:05
I know you are. I understand that. I mean, you're not... It's funny, because everything you're saying makes sense
1:11:12
but there's still conflict in you on this. Oh, yes. It's almost like you know what your experiences are
1:11:20
and you know what the rules are, and you know how this could have happened. But on the other hand, forget about it
1:11:25
There's no way these people should be free. I agree with you 100%
1:11:30
So I was due to be best man at someone's wedding. I found, he told me that his brother
1:11:35
who is older than me, so he's in his early 50s, got convicted of sexual assault on a young girl
1:11:41
Right. I didn't go to that wedding. I don't speak to that man anymore. Yeah, I understand
1:11:47
I know, I do understand why you've mentioned that, but I suppose the other thing you've done
1:11:51
which is not necessarily super helpful, is you've reached immediately for 10 years. I mean, if they'd been..
1:11:56
I don't know what the reaction would be if it was two years in youth custody
1:12:01
The idea that they're serving no custody time at all. If the judge could guarantee they're going to prison for however long it is
1:12:08
they get the courses they need and the help that they need, obviously you can't guarantee they're going to come out and not commit any more crimes
1:12:14
but try and give them the tools to not commit any more crimes, all for it. And I suppose logically everybody should be
1:12:20
What is your priority here? Well, the line between justice and vengeance is almost impossible to plot
1:12:27
because these two young girls, also children, They have received in their own eyes absolutely no justice whatsoever
1:12:34
One of them gave an interview at the weekend that was unbearable. Unbearable in the sense of failure and betrayal
1:12:41
that she clearly feels towards the whole of society. But that, yeah, I mean, you want justice for them
1:12:51
but also the role of the court is to minimise or remove entirely the likelihood of repetition
1:12:56
And if the judge thinks the best way to do the second thing is to go down the path that he went down
1:13:01
then at least you can begin to understand it in an intellectual sense
1:13:06
quite possibly not an emotional sense. Thank you, Dan. Always a pleasure
1:13:14
Half past 11 is the time. Dominic Ellis has your headline. James O'Brien on LBC
1:13:19
It is 33 minutes after 11 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:13:25
where it's a tricky... I mean, it's weird, right? Because it's not tricky at all
1:13:31
Should two teenage boys who... Or three teenage boys who raped two teenage girls
1:13:35
currently be under lock and key? Yes. Of course they should. But they're not
1:13:44
Why not? Why not? And there are answers to that question. There are answers to that question
1:13:53
And we'll continue to canvas them. But I don't know what the right verb is to describe how it makes me feel, because normally I'm fairly clear-eyed on the importance of precedent
1:14:05
And I would be quite condescending about people with strong opinions who've never been near the court in this particular case
1:14:12
But this crime gets under my radar, gets under my bar or whatever it is you call it
1:14:17
You know, some people feel their reaction to crimes change according to the ethnicity of the perpetrator
1:14:23
And that is obviously shameful. Should your attitude to the age of criminal responsibility change
1:14:30
according to the nature of the crime that's been committed? Look, on paper, obviously not. Of course it shouldn't
1:14:36
But it does. That's why judges have to make these decisions, not radio presenters
1:14:42
And yet, on this occasion, the Attorney General has looked at the judge's decision
1:14:46
and sent it back to the Court of Appeal, so it's possible that the commentators and the critics
1:14:52
will be vindicated and exonerated And I tell you what just from the point of view of the two girls involved in this case I hope they are I just hope they are
1:15:05
And that means you've turned off that bit of your brain or that bit of your heart that cares about what happens to young people who commit crimes
1:15:12
Because as a crime it turns out that you could commit and it would turn me into someone who doesn't care what happens to you
1:15:19
However old you are. Make it make sense. Michelle's in Bushy. Michelle, what would you like to say
1:15:24
Yes, good morning, James. First time I'm calling to you. You're very welcome
1:15:29
Thank you. I am a magistrate that sits in the youth court
1:15:33
Oh, yes. So I understand where it's coming from insofar as the youth court has two years of detention to send a young person into either youth detention or youth
1:15:51
Yes. so the court actually must have felt that this matter was so serious that their powers
1:15:58
weren't sufficient which is why they sent it to the the crown court for the judge to deal with
1:16:04
right judges have very little experience in dealing with young people um the youth of um
1:16:12
justice team are always do a very detailed report normally they're very reluctant to recommend
1:16:19
custody, but they give out the facts of the young person setting up their background, their
1:16:25
capacity, etc, etc. Then there's other mitigations that you have to take into account
1:16:31
I'm unaware, the boys didn't plead guilty, did they? No. I don't know for sure. I don't think so
1:16:40
No, I don't. Because there was a full trial. We can't praise them for how they conducted themselves
1:16:43
during the trial if they pleaded guilty at the beginning of it, I don't think. Right, so they didn't plead guilty
1:16:48
So there's no discount for a plea of guilty, which would attract a third of the sentence
1:16:56
So the dilemma is, you know, you've got young people who were 14 and 15 at the time of the event
1:17:02
with limited capacity. They would not go into... They would go into what's called a secure accommodation
1:17:09
So it's not a prison per se. It's more like a secure..
1:17:14
A custody of sorts. It is custody. Yes, but that's what I said
1:17:18
I'm not suggesting 14-year-olds should be in prison, but, you know, they should be..
1:17:22
But they wouldn't go somewhere like Feltem. No, clearly, but... You know, they're vulnerable
1:17:27
So they would go somewhere like Secure Accommodation where they would get education
1:17:31
and they would get the help that they would need. And they would be removed from society
1:17:36
to which they still posed a threat. Yes, I mean, ADHD in itself is no excuse for this behaviour
1:17:43
So do you understand it in this case? I understand that I think that the judge isn't experienced in youth matters
1:17:52
And I think that he was persuaded by the lack of capacity outlined for the young people
1:17:59
That's what I think. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's almost as if you can become a bit blinded by elements of your job
1:18:07
to the point that you forget other elements of your job. I mean, you know, the main scale of the youth court is the welfare of the young person in front of you
1:18:15
So you have to take that into account. But you've also got victims who are also children
1:18:22
Can you help me with one other thing? Yeah. How could he have praised the perpetrators
1:18:30
How could he have actually praised their conduct during the trial? And I'm not asking that rhetorically
1:18:35
I'm just wondering if you have an answer to it. I haven't got an answer to it
1:18:39
Well, if they are so incapable of concentrating, if he got the impression that they did actually appreciate the seriousness
1:18:47
of the situation in which they found themselves despite being in one case quite spectacularly
1:18:52
of really spectacularly low intelligence then you can just about understand how he might have said
1:18:57
you've done very well paying attention or sitting still do you see what I mean
1:19:02
I understand what you're saying I mean they obviously were told that they had to behave
1:19:07
they would have been told that by their barristers by the youth justice team that, you know
1:19:14
impossibly they would have breaks. They wouldn't have been able to sit for hours
1:19:19
I would assume they would have had breaks during the proceedings. So that's when I worry about the journalism sometimes
1:19:25
is that if you had 5,000 words of comments from the judge and 12 of them involved paying a bit of a compliment
1:19:32
to these people for not misbehaving in court, it probably shouldn't be the headline from the entire story
1:19:39
but not putting them in custody, that is a perfectly reasonable headline
1:19:44
because that doesn't need context, really. Well, that is the headline, isn't it? Yes
1:19:50
Despite the background of the boys, I mean, that is the headline. You have to take into account
1:19:55
the welfare of the girls concerned as well. Well, he hasn't. And he hasn't
1:20:00
I don't think he has at all. I mean, one of them described the sentencing as a rock straight in my face
1:20:05
questioning why she had to endure the trial and relive her trauma in the witness box
1:20:10
only to see her abusers walk free. And that's the bit that I think..
1:20:14
Do you know what their defence was? No. Well, probably, yeah, well, I presume that it was
1:20:19
that they had limited, certainly one of them had limited understanding of consent
1:20:24
Yeah, but that's, okay, I understand that for one, but not for all of them, surely
1:20:28
No. But I also think that... Judges are human beings, aren't they
1:20:35
And, you know, I do usually subscribe to the school of thought that says
1:20:39
we weren't in court, we didn't hear everything, judges have got a lifetime of experience
1:20:43
More often than not, they're going to call it right, even if we don't understand why they've made the call that they've called
1:20:47
But they're human beings. They are human beings. So sometimes they get it wrong. Yes, I mean, obviously, I'm assuming these boys had no
1:20:55
dealings with the court prior to this. So he's taken that into account
1:21:00
I mean, he obviously wants to do the best thing as he sees fit for them
1:21:05
But he hasn't, I don't think, taken into account the feelings of the girls
1:21:10
But it's impossible to imagine how he would claim that he had, to be honest. I mean, you know this, but for people who don't, there'll be reports from probation officers
1:21:17
there'll be submissions from the prosecution and the defence barristers, and there will be sentencing guidelines in place
1:21:24
but I don't think anybody's disputing the fact that he had much less lenient options in front of him
1:21:30
and he chose to go down this route. And then, of course, inevitably, some newspapers start looking at the quotes
1:21:35
lenient end quotes record of the judge and they found an example of him giving a 12-month community
1:21:42
order to a sex offender who was caught with images of ity this is someone a paedophile who
1:21:48
had previously received a suspended jail sentence after admitting an attempt to engage in sexual
1:21:54
communication with a child online and he told this perpetrator this paedophile continue with
1:22:01
the progress you're making otherwise things will take a turn for the worse so being in court on
1:22:07
on ity charges as opposed to paedophile charges unless i'm misreading this constitutes
1:22:13
progress of sorts in the eyes of this judge and i'm uncomfortable with the idea of the newspaper
1:22:17
because you know how newspapers treat judges um they painted targets on their back during the
1:22:23
brexit campaigns uh paul dacre at the daily mail describing them as enemies of the people which is a phrase straight out of the Nazi playbook But judges are human beings and decent human beings can make hideous hideous mistakes
1:22:35
can get things horribly and hideously wrong, and I suspect that's what we're looking at here
1:22:39
Michelle, thank you. Mark is in Basingstoke. Mark, what would you like to say
1:22:45
Hi, James. First of all, I think one of the things that's really stood out to me about this case
1:22:50
is when the judge talks about diminished responsibility because one of the lads has got ADHD
1:22:57
They've both got ADHD diagnoses. Both got ADHD diagnoses, sorry. One of them has long-standing anxiety diagnosed
1:23:03
which makes him more open to peer pressure, while the other has such low intellectual capacity
1:23:08
that they think his understanding of consent would be limited. I think, so taking that as it is
1:23:15
understand that the anxiety and the low intelligence from that point of view
1:23:20
But it's another one of those where ADHD and autism and those kind of on-the-spectrum things
1:23:25
have been used as an excuse. I was late diagnosed with AU ADHD
1:23:31
which is kind of a horrible mixture of both. But at no point in my 35 years
1:23:36
have I ever considered doing anything like that. I've never committed a crime
1:23:41
Why do they mention it? I mean, because... I don't know. But I would give you..
1:23:47
Tell me if I speak wrong, or if I upset you, I would give you allowances
1:23:52
as a consequence of your autism and ADHD in our dealing. So, you know, I would try to be a little bit more patient with you
1:23:59
about certain things, and I would not, for example, if your ADHD was kicking in, I wouldn't accuse you of being lazy
1:24:05
or tell you to pull your socks up, or why can't you just concentrate? Do you see what I mean
1:24:09
I do. And if I was aware of your autism, then I wouldn't necessarily expect you to be able to read the room
1:24:17
in the way that I can read it. Do you see what I mean? So I would make allowances
1:24:22
Carry on. No, because what I will say is, and this is what I said to your researcher beforehand
1:24:27
was one of the defining characteristics of people with ADHD and autism is a sense of fairness and justice
1:24:34
It is huge. Like, a strong sense of justice is something that
1:24:38
people with ADHD and autism really, you know, really, really have. And so to do anything wrong or to do anything from, you know
1:24:47
to do anything that isn't fair or isn't just in your mind is something you've really struggled with
1:24:52
Well, I mean, you speak of yourself. I do. And I don't know much about autism
1:24:58
I know a bit more about ADHD, possibly quite a lot more. So I push back a little bit on that
1:25:03
is that the more I read about ADHD, the more I understand why some people got into trouble as youngsters
1:25:10
and immediately felt shame. There's a big difference, James, between getting into trouble
1:25:15
and I said this to your researcher as well a crime or a problem
1:25:19
that exists when you're doing something like petty theft or even so far as stealing
1:25:23
a car, you know, a quite extreme thing there's not a person involved
1:25:27
you're absolutely right hurting a person or hurting an animal is not something
1:25:32
that most people would countenance and from my experience and people I've spoken to and lots of stuff online
1:25:38
and things like that, the justice side of hurting, of having a victim
1:25:42
yes, as opposed to a victimless It's a serious crime, and that puts it into it
1:25:46
So you might have got yourself into all sorts of bother as a kid, but you would never have gone here
1:25:52
And therefore, you can say with some confidence, and I can agree with you that this is not relevant to this case
1:26:00
There will be cases that it was relevant to, perhaps criminal damage or property-based crimes where you can't..
1:26:08
But the idea of committing an actual rape because you've got poor impulse control, sorry
1:26:13
Save it for the judge. Yeah, go on. I just want to say one more thing
1:26:18
In the job I do, I work actually with prison leavers, supporting them into employment
1:26:23
following their custodial sentences. Yes. And we have a... The company I work for has a strict sort of red line offences
1:26:35
which are terrorism, arson, and sexual offences. Yes. We will not support anyone with those kind of backgrounds
1:26:42
for insurance reasons, safeguarding reasons, reputational reasons, et cetera, et cetera. One thing I will say is because of the age of these lads
1:26:50
being under 16, I do think we do need to look as a society
1:26:55
at rehabilitation. And the magistrate that you had on earlier was talking about education programs
1:27:01
and support in custody. These lads need help. And they need help, but this doesn't need to ruin their lives
1:27:09
They need to get punished, and they absolutely need to be punished for what they've done
1:27:13
and hold a custodial sentence and have this on their record. But there does need to be something to support them to get out of this situation
1:27:18
You can do both. So you don't have to become part of a baying mob of people
1:27:22
calling for capital punishment and blood in order to say they should have been locked up
1:27:28
They should have been put into custody. And that's a really powerful point. And that's it. And being locked up is horrendous
1:27:33
Having been in many prisons myself, it is not fun. Especially, like, I'm going into one tomorrow and it's hot
1:27:39
they are horrible places to be hang on i read in the daily mail that it's basically butlins but
1:27:44
without the water slide yeah but this is the daily mail isn't it mate mark thank you um it's 11 47
1:27:51
speaking of the daily mail should we catch up because there's yet more madness going on in iran
1:27:56
um as you'll be aware you could i tell you what day it is if it's a monday it's a ceasefire if
1:28:01
it's a tuesday they've opened fire again if it's a wednesday then the iranian forces have been so
1:28:06
completely obliterated that Donald Trump will be claiming a victory. If it's a Thursday
1:28:10
then it's a threat of what they're going to do in the event of Iran not doing what he wants
1:28:15
despite the fact that Iran isn't capable of doing anything because they've already been obliterated. And anyway, there was a ceasefire until there wasn't. So the absolute madness of
1:28:23
Donald Trump's dealing in the Middle East. Now some Israeli media condemning the latest
1:28:29
pronouncements on the grounds that they'll make life even worse for Israelis. I thought we'd just
1:28:34
check on what Dick Littlejohn has to say about it all, because, of course, he thinks Donald Trump should be Prime Minister of the United Kingdom
1:28:41
and he's never been more ashamed to be British than he was when Keir Starmer declined to get involved in all of this madness
1:28:47
So he, today, is addressing the continuing situation in Iran, as he must, as someone who really wouldn't shut up about it ten minutes
1:28:54
And he's written about the weather. Oh, no, not just the weather. Here you go
1:29:00
Just a thought, he writes today. but given that Randy Andy M.W
1:29:05
that's a reference to Andrew Mountbatten Windsor who is being investigated as you know
1:29:11
for all manner of offences including sexual but hey let's give him a funny nickname
1:29:17
and let's whoa let's be rude about women just a thought but given that Randy Andy M.W
1:29:27
had no shortage of gormless British women willing to oblige him why did he have to import Epstein's girls from America
1:29:37
So that's a little aside about a man being investigated for possible sex offences
1:29:42
in which Dick Littlejohn in the Daily Mail has somehow managed to be misogynistic about women
1:29:49
in a paragraph that mentions victims of Jeffrey Epstein. But Vykat Rotherm is still paying him
1:29:58
James O'Brien. on LBC. It is 11.53. Don't let me forget the multiple choice question
1:30:06
that I posed to you a moment ago. And, of course, I have two missing word rounds for you as well
1:30:11
But, before any of that, we head north to Makerfield, where Chris Chambers, LBC's correspondent in the north-west
1:30:18
has the latest developments with regard to that looming by-election. Chris, for fear of Ofcom
1:30:24
and due to knowledge of my own myriad failings, I will keep entirely quiet during the course of this report
1:30:32
Morning, James, from the Costa del Makerfield, where it is absolutely scorching and every day at the moment
1:30:37
we seem to be hearing something new about the reform candidate Robert Kenyon
1:30:41
A story in The Independent today saying he made degrading comments about women on an account linked to him
1:30:47
It's allegedly wrote that women can't referee, drive or give directions and declared, I'm sexist, sorry, but I am
1:30:54
something Reform has dismissed as locker room banter. There also reports in the iNewspaper about alleged comments on abortion
1:31:02
claims he made posts about how abortion is a cowardly act of murdering a defenceless baby
1:31:06
and that it's being used by women as a secondary form of contraception
1:31:10
and a way of not having to face up to it because a doctor did it
1:31:14
Reform have responded to that, saying these comments were made before Councillor Kenyon entered politics
1:31:19
and that Rob is perfectly entitled to his own personal opinions on the issue
1:31:23
The paper also points to comments made on an online rugby fan forum in the 2010s
1:31:28
which objectify the bodies of European women and, in comparison, says English women don't care
1:31:34
and just walk around with their fat bellies and odd shapes, pushing a pram at 16 in their pyjamas
1:31:39
There are various comments about the ability of female football pundits as well
1:31:44
but a spokesperson for Reform UK again dismissed this as locker room banter
1:31:49
Over the weekend, we heard comments about a post relating to the former countdown presenter, Carol Vorderman
1:31:54
These comments allegedly being from an account linked to Mr Kenyon, whereby he responded to another person's sexually explicit comments
1:32:01
saying he's only saying what we're all thinking, along with a thumbs up emoji
1:32:06
The Reform MP, Danny Kruger, has said over the weekend that these comments were inappropriate to say in public
1:32:12
We've also asked Reform today for comments on the allegations reported by Hope Not Hate last week
1:32:16
regarding calls for violence as well as conspiracies relating to the COVID pandemic
1:32:21
things like telling people to take vitamins over vaccine boosters and also suggesting the media were complicit in global tyranny
1:32:29
So far, we've had no response from reform, but we will hopefully get some kind of response in the short term
1:32:34
It's not just reform, though. The Greens had their own controversy last week with candidate Chris Kennedy being forced to step down
1:32:40
within a couple of hours of his big launch event. Initially, we were told by the party this was for private and family reasons
1:32:46
But reports from the Times pointed to comments he'd made on social media, suggesting the alleged attacks on Jewish ambulances in London were a false flag attack, something he has since apologised for
1:32:57
And the Greens say those views don't reflect those of the party. And we've heard today they have now announced that Sarah Wakefield will be their candidate instead
1:33:06
Chris, great job. Um, I don't know if you know this, but Carol Valdeman is a pal of mine
1:33:13
and she is, I think, going to come on the programme tomorrow to talk about this
1:33:18
I'm just looking at the stuff that this character reportedly shared. You're a bit more of a professional than I am
1:33:25
I'm not going to be able to repeat it on the radio, am I? I don't think so. It's pretty vulgar, to say the least
1:33:31
Yes, it is, indeed. Chris Chambers there. A full list of candidates, I should tell you, in that by-election is available on lbc.co.uk
1:33:39
And as things stand, we will be joined on this programme by Carol Vorderman tomorrow
1:33:44
to discuss these, frankly, extraordinary interventions, not least the apparent defence of them by Danny Kruger
1:33:49
who I think his own mother is a television presenter, isn't she? God knows what his reaction would be if someone were sharing comments like this about Prue Leith
1:33:58
But Danny Kruger seems to think it's OK because it happened privately on a forum which billions of people
1:34:03
well, millions if not billions of people, that's not private, Danny Kruger
1:34:07
you absolute person. 11.57 is the time. Back to this hideous story of the young boy
1:34:14
well, the boys spared custody despite raping two girls. Jennifer is in Eastleigh with what will probably be the last word
1:34:23
Jennifer, what made you pick up the phone? Oh, good morning, Jane. Hello, Jennifer
1:34:27
Sorry, I think my dog's decided to bark now. That's all right. I can't hear a thing
1:34:31
Okay. I was a probation officer for over 30 years. I'm retired now and I worked at Youth Offending Team about 30 years ago
1:34:41
And we had boys that committed horrendous rapes and other violent crimes
1:34:47
And they went to prison. And when I retired 18 months ago, most of them were still in prison
1:34:53
They'd been out and they'd been in again and out and in again. got indeterminate sentences for public protection
1:34:59
and I knew then as a probation officer that what they needed was a proper therapeutic psychological input
1:35:06
that's not available, not consistently in custody. I mean there's several different universes here, isn't there
1:35:14
There's the ideal universe in which case they would get all the attention and treatment that they need
1:35:20
to render them no longer a threat to society. There's the, if you like, the sort of feral universe
1:35:26
where they would be strung up from the nearest lamppost, which some people would be supremely comfortable with
1:35:32
But then there's the real universe, the universe in which we actually inhabit
1:35:36
where the best-case scenario isn't available and the worst-case scenario isn't an option
1:35:41
So what choices did this judge have? Answer, for me, would be some form of custody
1:35:46
coupled with the treatment and the supervision that is being provided. You'd go further the other way and say no custody at all
1:35:54
I wouldn't necessarily say no custody at all, but what I would say is that at the moment, the sort of provision in custody, it does not provide the consistent fair putter input these people need
1:36:09
They can be moved from prison or secure centre. They kick off one day and then they're moved to another centre
1:36:18
Some of them are very good and got some very good psychologists
1:36:22
But the system isn't set up to have intensive therapeutic, psychological supervision for these people
1:36:28
So what you're looking at is probably a lifetime of incarceration. It's just a question of when it starts
1:36:35
Yes, yes. nor less. I mean, the judge really didn't have much. It was either custody
1:36:41
which he knows is going to make them worse, or rehabilitation order
1:36:45
where there is some chance of consistency in therapeutic input. What the
1:36:48
judge didn't have the choice of is something like, say, similar to mental health
1:36:53
order, like a treatment order in some sort of hospital or secure unit
1:36:56
that focused on therapeutic treatment that would ensure these boys never did it
1:37:01
again. And I want to end by talking about the girls and the
1:37:04
obvious failure of this judge to provide them with any sense of justice or of closure there's
1:37:10
there's no point at which you can look at people like that and just say tough luck is there no i
1:37:15
mean in my job i've had to be called dangerous people to prison time and time again and as a
1:37:21
probation officer you live in fear of people doing the harm that they repeating the harm they done and the girls need to protect it and they need and they need for some sort of punishment but the punishment has to make them less likely to
1:37:37
re-offend them rather than more likely. Which is a challenge for the judge, but one which I think
1:37:41
most people, if not everyone who's contributed to this conversation, would agree that in this case
1:37:45
the judge has failed. And we shall wait to see what happens when the case gets to the appeal
1:37:52
court whether it has been referred by the attorney general lord hermer as a consequence of his
1:37:58
conclusion that the original sentence that saw two teenage boys spared custody after being convicted
1:38:03
of of rape will um will go to the court of appeal um oh i told you that was a horrible conversation
1:38:11
thank you for helping me to conduct it in a way that was um helpful i hope and and manageable
1:38:18
because I just really feel my stomach curdle when I see some words written down on some pages
1:38:25
Up next, a story that didn't do that to me. In fact, it made me quite hopeful for the future
1:38:30
James O'Brien on LBC. It is five minutes after 12, and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:38:40
I can't remember the last time this happened in peacetime, as it were
1:38:44
I can remember politicians claiming that they've had to step away from their office because they want to spend more time with their family
1:38:51
or they've been hacked by Russian spies or the victims of firebomb attacks
1:38:57
All sorts of claims made by politicians about why they can't do certain things
1:39:02
But this one is really, really interesting. Carla Denia, the Bristol Central MP
1:39:11
has been advised by her doctor to take a break from her job
1:39:15
As Gabby Hinsliff writes in The Guardian today In a normal world, I beg your pardon
1:39:21
In an ideal world, most people would just wish her a swift recovery
1:39:24
and get on with their lives As quite a lot of MPs from normally rival parties duly did
1:39:30
on the grounds that you never really know what is going on under the surface of someone else's life
1:39:38
Inevitably, in the modern world A little Fontaine's DC nod for you there
1:39:45
Inevitably, in the modern world, the spasm of online venom became immediately enormous with lots and lots of angry people, including, according to Gabby Hinsliff, on radio phone-ins
1:39:59
Certainly not one that I've heard, but nonetheless, attacking her for following her own doctor's advice and asking why they can't just answer a few emails without needing a lie down when nurses and teachers have to soldier on regardless
1:40:13
which is kind of the constituency of human beings that we talked about at the very top of the first hour
1:40:18
when we said people who understand nothing but have incredibly strong opinions about everything
1:40:27
It's something to be welcomed, this. I can't imagine Carly Odenya would have done it
1:40:32
on the down low or slyly or even enthusiastically. Burnout, to me, is a fascinating word
1:40:41
And it's a word that we're probably going to hear more and more moving forward
1:40:46
For the benefit of people who understand nothing but have incredibly strong opinions about everything
1:40:52
You used to get shot for desertion if you suffered from what we would now call post-traumatic stress disorder
1:40:58
So soldiers, more than perhaps anybody else, have been appallingly served by knee-jerk, barroom, self-appointed geniuses
1:41:08
who think they understand medical predicaments better than medical professionals do. You would get shot for desertion
1:41:15
if you had post-traumatic stress disorder, certainly in the First World War and earlier
1:41:22
And as we've talked about a million times on this programme, just because we have given a name to something
1:41:27
that didn't have a name before does not mean it only came into existence the moment it was given a name
1:41:33
And under that bracket, you can put everything from dyslexia and autism
1:41:37
even right through to ADHD and other issues. It didn't used to have a name
1:41:44
It didn't have a name when I was a kid, therefore it can't possibly be real, which is a little odd when you think about science
1:41:51
and the discovery of things like elements throughout human history. Oh, no, we just got air
1:41:58
We didn't know what oxygen was when I was a kid, so oxygen's not right. And you'd sort of joke on stuff like this
1:42:03
and then you remember that there's a heatwave at the moment, and climate change denial is still real
1:42:07
So it's perfectly possible. There's a little corner of the internet out there that doesn't believe in oxygen
1:42:14
But we do. And I believe in burnout, despite the fact that it is not something
1:42:20
I have ever suffered myself. I would like you to tell me what it's like
1:42:25
I'd like you to tell me the difference between being a little bit shattered
1:42:29
and or under the weather and genuinely feeling or being told by your doctor
1:42:34
that you should take some time off. Gallup did a survey on this quite recently
1:42:41
and pointed out that it's not clinical burnout, it's not just feeling poleaxed by a tough week
1:42:50
it's dreading going to work every morning. It's having panic attacks, it's becoming alarmingly detached from your job
1:42:58
as a kind of coping mechanism. The truly burnt out need to stop
1:43:03
not just for their own sake, but everyone else is two. And listen, we're all different as well
1:43:11
We're all different. We can go through identical experiences, you and me
1:43:17
and you might come out smiling and I might come out crying
1:43:22
We can be exposed to identical stimuli, you and me, and you might come out smiling and I might come out crying
1:43:29
We can walk down the same road in the same shoes almost, you and me
1:43:33
and you might come out crying and I might come out smiling. So the idea that there is an objective algorithm
1:43:41
for human behaviour is clearly bonkers. What I want to do, because obviously if she were..
1:43:50
And we've all worked with people who we think have exaggerated their situation or their symptoms
1:43:56
in order to get a bit of time off work. I worked with a fellow many, many years ago
1:44:00
who had counted the number of sick days he had. built into his contract when he'd get full pay on a sick day
1:44:06
and made sure every year that he took them all, as if it was a sort of form of extra holiday
1:44:11
I just remember sitting there as a slightly naive young man. Did you remember when you were grateful to have work
1:44:18
Maybe you still are. My dad used to get a bit annoyed with me about it
1:44:22
He'd say that you're not there for fun. They're there because they want you there
1:44:27
They're lucky to have you. You shouldn't be so great. When I first got going on newspapers, I didn't claim my expenses
1:44:32
because I sort of thought, oh, I don't want to make a fuss. I'm very glad I finally got a job on newspapers
1:44:38
I'm not going to ask for more money. They're paying me away. But, of course, Dad would say
1:44:42
you're just taking someone out for lunch. Why would you pay for that? The only reason you've taken them out for lunch
1:44:46
is the hope of getting a story that you can put in their newspaper, which they sell. So you're grateful for it
1:44:53
You get to that point where you sort of think that somebody you know or somebody in the office is obviously taking all the sick days that they entitled to even though they not sick or they
1:45:05
exaggerating their situation to get signed off. But how many people are really going
1:45:10
to be in that category? I think burnout is a... I think burnout is very much on the list
1:45:18
of things that we like discussing on this programme, because together we can come to
1:45:23
a better understanding of what it actually is and what it actually means. So what is the difference
1:45:30
between being a bit pooped and being burned out? Okay. 0345 6060 973. And actually, let's personalise
1:45:39
it. I applaud Carla Denia for not only doing this, but also going public with it. Given that she's an
1:45:46
MP, I'm not sure that she could have avoided going public with it. But if you, to be honest, I wish
1:45:51
more MPs were overwhelmed by the job. I'm not being glib. I wish more MPs were a bit overwhelmed
1:45:58
by the job. I wish they did come to the office every day with an almost unbearable sense of
1:46:03
gravity and importance instead of treating it like a bit of a joyride, as many of them
1:46:08
seem to do, or worse. You're dealing with people who are about to lose their home or their children
1:46:17
You're dealing with people who are about... This, of course, is if you attend your constituency surgeries. You're dealing with people who are in danger of being deported, people who might be
1:46:25
trapped in a foreign war, parents who can't see their children or whose children are so poorly
1:46:32
they haven't been to school for months, and the person you go to, the person you deal with, is
1:46:36
your MP. The schools aren't catering for your child's special needs or their disabilities
1:46:41
Gabby Hinsliff makes these points quite brilliantly today. You're dealing with people whose children
1:46:45
are coughing because their flats are rife with mould. And the point of contact for MPs
1:46:50
who bother to have constituency surgeries is the MP. You are presented on an almost daily basis
1:46:57
with the very worst of human experience. And you are being asked to help
1:47:03
And you can't help. How many times have you heard me on this programme
1:47:06
speak to somebody who's going through hell and then say at the end of it
1:47:10
I wish I could do more. I really hate the fact that I'm going to end this conversation
1:47:15
by wishing you luck or by telling you what an extraordinary response
1:47:20
you've received from my listeners. And I mean it all, but how, how, oh
1:47:26
if I was built slightly differently and that was happening with every single call
1:47:32
how long could I keep it up for, do you think? How long could you deal with
1:47:37
I mean, how do Samaritans deal with it? The answer is some don't
1:47:42
Some people have to knock it on their head because they're struggling. How do doctors and nurses deal with it
1:47:46
Goes with the job, goes with the territory. Some people struggle, some people don't
1:47:54
And this very Victorian notion we have, that you have to sort of push forward
1:48:01
have a stiff upper lip, don't show weakness, pull your socks up, get on with it
1:48:07
all of this strange mindset that's probably a throwback to, as I say, to Victorian times
1:48:13
makes you feel guilty and ashamed and embarrassed when you have... Excuse me, I've got a little tickle in my throat, you can probably tell
1:48:23
When you have burnout. So, what's it like? How would you describe it
1:48:28
The first time I asked this question was with regard to depression. It's a pivotal moment in the course of my presenting career, if you can call it that
1:48:37
when I realised that the really interesting stuff we do is not to paint a picture of somebody that we don't understand
1:48:42
and then have an argument about whether we should attack them or sympathise with them. But the thing we should do is really try to dig down into
1:48:51
what they're going through that we don't understand. And the way you do that is by talking to people who do understand
1:48:57
So the first thing we did it with was depression. Because pretty much every single one of us, at some point in our life
1:49:04
has claimed to be depressed. Am I right? Have you ever said that you're a bit depressed
1:49:10
Have you ever thought to yourself, even if you haven't said it out loud. I'm a bit depressed today
1:49:15
And it might be because your football team lost. That's not depression. It might be because you just got dumped
1:49:20
That might be pushing into actual depression. It might be, I don't know
1:49:25
because you had a bit too much to drink last night and you've got one of those kind of, oh, antsy hangovers
1:49:30
That's not depression. When you're talking about depression in a medical sense, you're talking about something medical
1:49:35
You're talking about literally clinical depression. One of the most illuminating phonemes we ever had
1:49:40
and it's changed the way I do the job, was about the difference between clinical depression
1:49:45
and feeling a bit sad. We've done it with addiction. Touched on it in the first hour of the programme
1:49:49
The difference between really liking something and doing it a bit too much than is perhaps healthy
1:49:54
and actually being addicted to something. Being in thrall, an uncontrollable thrall to something
1:50:01
is not the same as wishing that you didn't put quite as much money
1:50:06
in the fruit machine last night as you. Do we still have fruit machines, Keith? They're weird these days, aren't they
1:50:11
It's got about 100 different games on them. Do you see what I mean? The difference between addiction and overindulgence
1:50:18
The difference between depression and sadness. The difference between, I suppose, sort of being a bit cheeky and mischievous
1:50:28
and having a condition that literally limits your impulse control. And I want to do it with burnout
1:50:36
So I salute Carla Denia for doing this. I think that the job of a proper MP at doing a decent job is incredibly difficult and incredibly hard
1:50:45
And if your doctor has said to you that this is a little bit too much and you need to take a step back
1:50:50
then the worst thing you can do is ignore your doctor and not take a step back
1:50:54
So I don't know whether you're in the mood for commenting on what Carla Denia has done
1:50:59
I wish her a speedy recovery and I congratulate her, if that's the right word to use, on her openness
1:51:04
and the courage it must take to have done this in a world where the world and his wife think they're entitled to throw abuse at you
1:51:10
for the most unnecessary of reasons. A world where performative rage is practically a business model
1:51:18
And, of course, if you're burnt out as well but you're soldiering on, then good for you
1:51:22
But I wish you would get the help that you need rather than soldiering on
1:51:26
Soldiering on rarely helps anybody, not least the people that you're supposed to be looking after. But the key question here is what is burnout
1:51:32
out. And how do you get through it? 03456060973. I don't think I've ever come close
1:51:40
I sometimes wonder whether I have the opposite problem, actually. On the occasions
1:51:46
over the years that I've been doing this job, where life outside the studio has been quite difficult
1:51:51
work has been almost like a kind of, uh, it's a very particular type of job
1:51:58
But imagine I was really worried about something, or really sad about something
1:52:02
I get three hours a day where it's almost incapable of getting into my brain
1:52:07
because the concentration levels that I have in place, and you may find this slightly hard to believe
1:52:12
given all the dithering and wanging on that occurs between 10 o'clock and 1 o'clock on LBC
1:52:18
but the concentration levels that I need to do this job mean that I get three hours a day commercial breaks notwithstanding of almost a holiday from my troubles when I had troubles particular troubles over the years that I been doing this job What if my job was the troubles
1:52:35
What if this job made everything worse? What if I couldn't leave my personal life at the door
1:52:41
and walk in here every day to spend time with you, which is an enormous gift, if not for you, then for me
1:52:48
I never cease to be grateful for it, but what if your job was making everything worse
1:52:53
there would come a point where you'd be mad to continue doing it you'd have to take a little
1:52:58
bit of time off get you get yourself sorted i think so anyway and the best way to answer this
1:53:03
question is what what what is burnout in the sense that carla denya is clearly suffering it and um
1:53:09
how did you how did you deal with yours 0345 6060 973 is the number you need
1:53:17
James O'Brien on LBC It is 21 minutes after 11 and I love words
1:53:25
you know that and sometimes I love the space between words if that's a thing
1:53:30
if that makes sense so the space between sadness and depression the space between
1:53:35
exhaustion and burnout the space between the word that we use all the time
1:53:40
that doesn't actually mean what it really means we use a word like depression
1:53:44
in a way that a doctor would never use it and the space in between
1:53:47
So when I tell you I'm depressed, you think I'm an idiot because really I'm just a bit sad
1:53:53
And you're sad as well, therefore I can't be depressed. Do you see what I mean? It's almost the policing of other people's feelings
1:54:00
It's a very strange thing and sadly it's probably more commonplace and more encouraged by the current state of our society
1:54:06
than it was when I was younger. So what is burnout and how do you deal with it
1:54:11
Sylvia's in West Wycombe. Sylvia, what would you like to say? Hi. So, I was suffering from burnout back in the late 1980s
1:54:21
And I was a therapist and a corporate trainer, a psychotherapist, that is
1:54:28
So, I was training other people to do the job I was doing
1:54:33
And I was seeing clinically patients as well from psychiatrists and doctors
1:54:38
and I was, if I can say it this way, I was very successful at it
1:54:45
I was so successful at it that people kept asking me to do other things
1:54:50
and I thought, oh yeah, I'd love to do that, I'd love to do that
1:54:54
until the point came where I was trying to look after my own life
1:54:59
I was trying to look after other people, I was trying to do all my own admin run my own business blah blah blah I'd never done that before
1:55:10
and I noticed I was getting more and more I guess I would say weakened emotionally psychologically
1:55:20
I was fine with a client I could mask it but then I would put the phone down or come away from the
1:55:29
training and it's like I need to go home and go to bed and then what happened was I stopped
1:55:35
functioning normally. I'd been to the GP, I'd had depression years before so I knew what depression
1:55:43
was like and yes of course I was depressed but I wasn't only depressed and so I was given
1:55:49
antidepressants and that didn't do it and so one day I thought I can't do anything anymore, I'm not
1:55:58
functioning properly so it would be like if I was a car I had no wheels I had nothing to propel me
1:56:06
and so I walked I remember it very well crying my eyes out into Hampstead Hospital in their A&E
1:56:17
this is crazy now I was literally falling apart at the seams and I looked at them and I said
1:56:26
I just can't cope anymore and I'm supposed to be the counsellor and that as much as I still do it
1:56:35
now as much as I love it it puts so much more guilt and pressure on me and I couldn't deal with
1:56:42
those emotions either so what I'm saying is when you're burned out is everything falls apart inside
1:56:50
And the difficulty with all of these things is, as you've been describing, really, different people respond in different ways
1:57:01
And at that point, society was getting into a mess where people, I think the interest rates went up really high, something like 14 percent
1:57:13
So I'd been having conversations where, can you imagine it? I'm really successful at my work
1:57:20
I love what I do and I'm in with my accountant and we're talking about should I go bankrupt or not
1:57:28
because I couldn't cope with everything. I got behind with everything. So I kept saying to the mortgage company
1:57:36
I'll pay the mortgage, I'll pay it next week. And then I'd put the phone down
1:57:41
somebody might ring me to ask me to do another job and I'd forget about it
1:57:46
And you know that wasn't you. Three things, if I may. The first is I got the time wrong a minute ago, so I'm just going to correct that
1:57:52
It's 25 minutes after 12. The second is your phone line, something wrong with your phone line
1:57:56
Every time I speak, you go silent. So if ever anyone wants to ring in and not get interrupted constantly
1:58:02
like I normally do with callers, then borrow Sylvia's phone. The third thing is what did they do in A&E
1:58:09
How did they respond to your presentation? It's a sad thing, okay
1:58:14
So the first thing they said to me when I was crying was they tried empathy and compassion, which I have to say it helped to have
1:58:27
It's like a warm blanket if you're cold. I definitely needed that
1:58:31
I didn't need any judgment. But then they said to me, look, you're the therapist
1:58:37
You understand these things. And it's like maybe so. but I said if I was a surgeon and I had appendicitals
1:58:44
I couldn't do my own surgery. How beautifully put. So did they accept you into the hospital
1:58:51
Or, I mean, what happened? How did you get better? Or how did you get through it, rather
1:58:56
What they offered me was... They offered me to come into the psychiatric ward
1:59:03
Crikey. Right. So they must have seen that you were in some serious distress then
1:59:09
And they said this. I never forget because I loved them for it
1:59:14
They said, this is the NHS, so it's not great. I was like, I know, but I live on my own
1:59:26
And it's like no one's looking after me when I go home
1:59:30
I seem to be remiss in looking after myself. And then I had, you were talking about going public earlier
1:59:37
So I agreed to go into hospital. I just thought, do you know what
1:59:42
Take me out of society Take me away from any more pressures
1:59:46
I don't need any more parking ticket reminders Or anything else I may lose my flat
1:59:52
I can't cope Whatever's happening I just want to sleep So what they did was they put me in a bedside
1:59:59
literally right down the end of the ward in a corner and they said just sleep as much as you
2:00:08
need to so two things happened one i kept sleeping but people kept visiting other patients didn't
2:00:15
they while i was asleep i would wake up counseling the people next to me in my sleep good lord and
2:00:27
And my supervisor, my clinical supervisor, I had loads of great work lined up
2:00:34
And he said, right, I don't want you to tell people that you're just sick
2:00:39
I don't want you to tell them that you're off work because you're not well
2:00:44
I want you to tell them that you're struggling with your mental health
2:00:49
You're burned out. You're overwhelmed and you're not functioning properly. So I don't know if you can imagine that
2:00:56
but I said to him, isn't that professional suicide? And he said, no, I think you'll find it different
2:01:04
Can you imagine? I'm laying in a bed looking like God knows what
2:01:09
And then the occupational, she's left now and is my friend now
2:01:15
but the occupational health manager at NatWest Bank and the occupational health manager of the Met Police
2:01:21
because they were two of the organizations I trained people with. They came in and I thought, oh, my God, I need to die quickly
2:01:34
And they were just so lovely. And I was saying to them, I'm obviously crap because look at me
2:01:41
You know, what am I doing in here? Physician healed herself, as it were
2:01:46
He held my hand and they said, look, even if you don't believe it
2:01:50
because you're in here at the moment, then you will find that it will be an inspiration when you tell other people so when i came out of
2:01:59
hospital i wouldn't have stayed with a relative so i was off work in total i think between six
2:02:06
and eight weeks as i recall um the professor who i worked with at guys who was head of psychiatry
2:02:12
i thought oh god when i go back and fire me and he he always lovingly called me milton because
2:02:19
that's my surname, and he just said to me, hello Milton, are you your normal self
2:02:25
And I thought, that's it. I was not my normal self, and you knew that
2:02:31
and only you can really feel that, the depth that you clearly felt it
2:02:35
Sylvia, thank you. I have to crack onto the news. I hope you feel you've had the opportunity
2:02:39
to tell your story in sufficient detail, because it's a really important story
2:02:44
and you're absolutely right. The fact that it comes from somebody with your professional background gives it such resonance
2:02:49
For those of us who might sort of think that there was something a bit suspect about the diagnosis
2:02:54
if you do this professionally and can still fall between those cracks of existence
2:02:59
then goodness knows there's nothing to be embarrassed about if you are an amateur
2:03:05
if you are not a professional. Sylvia, thank you. 1231 is the time
2:03:08
Amelia Cox has your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC. 1233. You know, I have more good ideas than I know what to do with on this programme
2:03:16
Some of them never see the light of day. today, because I felt we should cover it somehow
2:03:20
but I couldn't really see it as a phone-in I've subsequently thought of something that might be a phone-in
2:03:24
I was going to look at all the things that Peter Morrill bought with the money he embezzled from the SNP
2:03:29
while his wife Nicola Sturgeon was leading it and I was going to ask you true or false
2:03:33
so I was just going to say an item and then true or false
2:03:37
like did he actually buy this or did I make that one up so for example I could say
2:03:41
a Joseph Joseph bread bin a Joseph Joseph bread bin true or false
2:03:47
true or false that's true you see or I could say operation
2:03:55
the operation game two operation games false and that's not actually a very good game
2:04:03
it's not a very good idea so we'll leave that one where it is remind me tomorrow that I think there might be a conversation
2:04:08
we can have about that but my multiple choice games they are always fun
2:04:13
and we had one on the board today let me remind you what the question was
2:04:17
I wanted you to tell me what is the latest twist in the tale of Nigel Farage's secret £5 million gift from a Thailand-based billionaire who will make absolutely zillions of money from his cryptocurrency investments if Nigel Farage delivers on the policies that he announced he was going to deliver shortly after receiving a £5 million secret gift from a Thailand-based billionaire
2:04:41
Desperate to avoid talking about anything except the inappropriateness of both accepting that gift
2:04:46
and trying to keep it secret. So what has he done? What has he done in order to try and change the tone of the narrative
2:04:53
Has he, A, published all of the receipts and bank accounts and bank statements that demonstrate
2:04:59
he spent all of the £5 million on security, despite fibbing about security concerns
2:05:05
being the reason why he can't have constituency surgeries in Clacton, and proving beyond any reasonable doubt
2:05:11
that none of the money was spent on any of the houses that him and his girlfriend bought for cash
2:05:15
shortly after he received the secret £5 million. That's option A. Is it option B
2:05:20
Claiming without producing any evidence whatsoever that the only way in which journalists got hold of the story
2:05:25
was because Russian spies hacked his phone. Presumably, it's a phone that is the same number
2:05:32
as the one he had when he was appearing on Russia Today, the Kremlin-funded television station, every 20 minutes
2:05:38
For money. Ruble's, perhaps. So is it B, the Russian spies? Is it A, the bank accounts and the receipts
2:05:45
Or is it C, he's accepted that it was inappropriate to accept £5 million
2:05:49
from a Thailand-based billionaire who will make a huge sum of money
2:05:53
from policies that he announced he would introduce shortly after receiving the £5 million
2:05:58
You know the rest. So is it charity? Is it receipts, bank accounts and bank statements
2:06:03
Is it Russian spies or is it giving it all to charity? I thought this was a really good one
2:06:09
but as far as I can tell nobody got it wrong which probably is a mark of the coverage
2:06:14
that the story received over the weekend because he claims that Russian spies
2:06:18
hacked his phone and he can prove it because he's had it investigated by some experts
2:06:24
but he can't tell you who they are and it's perfectly possible that they go to a different school
2:06:28
the bit for me as a student of his dissembling ways that was most interesting is he went to the same so journalist with the story that he went to when he claimed that a French police a French mechanic had told him that his car had been tampled with that was a lie no French mechanic told him anything of the sort
2:06:45
but he lied about it because he needed to distract attention from something else that he was embarrassed
2:06:49
about at the time so he phones up a bloke on the mail on Sunday called Glenn Owen and they stick it
2:06:53
on their front page and guess where this story appeared at the weekend the story about the Russian
2:06:57
spies supposedly hacking his phone, even though it's probably got the same number that he used when he
2:07:01
was appearing on Kremlin-funded television Russia Today every ten minutes. You got it. Glenn Owen on the Mail on Sunday
2:07:07
What a reliable stenographer he is. 12.37 is the time. I haven't done the missing word
2:07:15
round today. We might save it for tomorrow. Shall I throw it into the mix now? I quite like this one
2:07:19
Blank. Blank that crossed the Irish Sea and took over London pubs. What has
2:07:25
crossed the Irish Sea and taken over London pubs? blank that crossed Irish Sea
2:07:29
and took over London pubs. If you get that right, I'll give you
2:07:33
the money myself. Back to the serious question of burnout, what it is and what
2:07:37
we can do about it. Ian is in Inverness. Ian, what would you
2:07:41
like to say? Hi there, James. Yeah, this is, well, it's almost hard to talk about
2:07:48
In December, my wife had a bit of a breakdown. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, and
2:07:53
no history of anything, nothing at all. we live up here, but she works down south remotely
2:08:03
but every so often she'll fly down to do a week in the office, whatever
2:08:08
She flew down, dropped her off at the airport, fine. She came back on the Friday afternoon
2:08:13
I went to pick her up. But on that Friday, something happened on their travel home
2:08:18
that was the final straw. It was something as innocuous as getting stuck on the busy train
2:08:23
with her big suitcase as she couldn't get off, and people were putting and commenting or whatever
2:08:30
And I could tell instantly when she was texting me that her personality had changed. That Friday night, we usually get pizza
2:08:37
bottle of wine, watch a movie. She couldn't even finish the movie. She just wanted to go to bed
2:08:42
Saturday morning, she got up and usually goes to the gym. Instead, she went, gone to her work laptop
2:08:48
thinking that she was losing her job. Completely. Without foundation. Yeah, yeah. There was a tiny bit of thing where they were moving where her home location was from one office to another office
2:09:02
Sure. So there's a sort of paranoia kicking in there. Yeah, it really did. It really did kick in
2:09:09
And then Saturday night, we went out to my parents' house. It was my stepmother's birthday
2:09:14
I went out, cooked dinner for them. Usually they would, my wife and my stepmom, they get on a house on fire
2:09:21
they bottled the Prosecco sitting there until 2am talking about she had one sip of wine
2:09:26
ate her dinner went to bed at 9 and then they live out in the country
2:09:30
so on Sunday morning I was like you're obviously not well you're not you're stressed
2:09:35
take a dog for a walk out in the woods she never came back
2:09:38
she just drove away I called her dozens of times never answered
2:09:43
and eventually I called the police they found her within about half an hour I don't know how
2:09:47
but she'd driven about 20 miles away I won't say what she was planning on doing
2:09:52
because it's a trigger warning but she came back to the house
2:09:57
and I drove home that night she just had a breakdown she called the police
2:10:02
they thought it was a domestic abuse thing but as soon as they got there they realised there was something very wrong
2:10:06
mental health call team over the phone had a quick chat with them
2:10:13
I say a quick chat, a couple of hours I got her to bed five o'clock the next morning, she texts her best friend
2:10:19
saying where her will and testament was and she ran out of the house. I got her back in
2:10:23
again, called the police and they took her to the mental health hospital
2:10:27
locally. And that was the Monday morning. By Tuesday morning, she was in a catatonic state
2:10:35
Good grief. Unable to speak, unable to open her eyes. And the doctors
2:10:41
had seen something like this before? Not with her. She has no history. No, no, I mean with others
2:10:47
Ian, I don't mean with others. Not, not, I, exactly, they still don't have a
2:10:53
working diagnosis. But your feeling is that everything just overwhelmed her, and she broke
2:11:00
Yeah, it was 100% stress. They know it was the stress related thing, because
2:11:05
it was a... How is she now? This last weekend, the bank holiday weekend, was
2:11:11
the first time that she was allowed out with me for a full day
2:11:16
So we had three days where we went out for lunch, went to visit family
2:11:20
went to walk around the woods outside Inverness. How did it go? Perfect. It went perfect
2:11:25
Oh, thank goodness. But she's still not quite there. She can't focus on anything at the minute
2:11:29
How long has she been in hospital? December 15th. Oh, five months
2:11:34
Yeah. So it's been a long... And she's a high-functioning woman. She's got a degree and a master's degree
2:11:41
She's got, she never asked for help for anything which is a problem
2:11:46
probably, it's helped it but the doctors genuinely don't know what the actual diagnosis is
2:11:53
it's a stress induced mycosis, it's a stress induced breakdown or stress induced depression
2:11:58
something along those lines but it's gone from her being totally normal on a Friday morning
2:12:04
to unable to open her eyes I'm thinking back to what Sylvia said about sleeping and
2:12:12
it's as if your poor wife got to the, went past that point
2:12:16
where, you know, three weeks of sleep would have helped and this is what happened when
2:12:20
you don't get it. Can I ask you a question? Of course, yes. Are you alright? Um
2:12:25
I don't know, to be honest. I mean, I'm sure, I'm sure. Well, I think that means you probably
2:12:30
do know. I would imagine that when she comes out, so hopefully she'll be out this
2:12:38
weekend, she'll come home for a weekend. and once she's out and better
2:12:42
I will probably need some time off and a chat with someone. Yeah, you can do that anyway
2:12:49
Yes. What do you do when you told her to go for a walk? What do you do when you're in those moments
2:12:55
See, I don't know. I've really struggled to understand, but I mean, obviously
2:13:01
I know for a fact this happened, because may I say how bad she actually got
2:13:05
in the hospital. She lost 12 kilos because she stopped eating and drinking because she was basically in a coma But you talking about her again And I know that she been to hell and back and I know hopefully now she getting better
2:13:18
but I'm a bit worried about you. I'm very bad at talking about myself, James
2:13:24
Yeah, I can tell. It's not a problem I suffer from, Ian, as you may have picked up over the years
2:13:30
But I really worry that you're carrying a bit too much at the moment, mate
2:13:34
it's i honestly don't know what to say james i i saw the since december my focus has been on
2:13:42
i know getting her out of there of course it has of course it has but there's room for there is
2:13:47
room for other stuff in your life and i i mean listen i'm not going to patronize you but i think
2:13:52
given what you now know can happen when people aren't finding a little valve to let some of that
2:13:59
pressure out i i i would really really like to think that you might look for that valve or look
2:14:05
for that help regardless of of how fast or how quickly your wife's recovery unfold i've spoken
2:14:12
to doctors about it and they said that i've got i've got appointments to see the doctor again
2:14:19
i think you should do that well make sure you promise me you'll go i will go i will yeah promise
2:14:25
I promise. I promise. Okay. And fingers crossed, yeah? Yeah. Seriously. I really wish you weren't in a position
2:14:31
to make such an incredible contribution to this programme because I think you've just described all of the things
2:14:36
that I was struggling to understand 45 minutes ago. Quickly, just to..
2:14:42
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, thank you. If anyone is really struggling like my wife was
2:14:47
and like me, I didn't think it could get so bad. And obviously, I've got family members who work in mental health or worked in mental health hospitals
2:14:57
So I know people can be very ill. But I'd never believed for a minute a person could go from where my wife was to being on drips
2:15:08
because they weren't eating and having catheters fitted because they wouldn't even get out
2:15:15
They were unable. She was unable to get out of bed. Literally, her body turned off
2:15:21
It's shut down. Her body's shut down. Completely. I mean, she didn't open her eyes for like two weeks
2:15:27
But she wasn't asleep, that's the thing. She was just completely not in a vegetative state
2:15:32
because you could pick it up and she would stand, but then she just wouldn't move
2:15:37
And it was... It's someone like a fat to reset her brain
2:15:42
and it's taking five months to turn back on again. Thank God she's getting the help that she needs and deserves
2:15:47
I just think you probably deserve a little bit of help as well, mate. Thank you
2:15:51
No, I mean... And I need a shout-out to the NHS staff as well
2:15:55
because they've been out of this world. Out of this world. Absolutely
2:16:01
You're all right? Yes, I am, James. Good, mate. A little bit of therapy on the radio for me
2:16:05
Well, I hope so. I hope I can be of some small help. But I do..
2:16:09
I'm not going to make you promise again, but I do want you to talk to someone who knows what they're doing
2:16:14
Yes, I will do. All right, mate. Right, thank you, James. Take it easy
2:16:18
We'll talk again. It's 12.46. James O'Brien on LBC 49 is the time, a lot of love for you Ian
2:16:24
as you can imagine but I do, anyway Andy is in Rotherham, Andy what made you pick up the phone
2:16:31
Hello James Firstly can I just say I thought that was quite brilliant to tell Ian to
2:16:36
make sure he gets some self care as well You'd have done the same but thank you
2:16:40
I would have and that's one of the things I'm very good at helping people
2:16:44
with their well being and terrible at my own and that's one of the
2:16:49
One of the things that's led to me, I've burnt myself from work
2:16:54
and all I want to do is go back to work. I've been signed off with my GP
2:16:59
At my work's insistence, I was breaking down on my desk, and they were right
2:17:04
What do you mean, bursting into tears and stuff? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
2:17:08
For no real reason, just something like the wrong sugar in your tea
2:17:12
could set you off or something like that. You know when you type in and you look up at it, it's all in capitals
2:17:16
Just delete it and type it again. but no, it was like the worst thing in the world
2:17:20
Oh, boy. And I'm a 52-year-old bloke with tattoos. I even lose, you know
2:17:24
It's like, this is alien to me. So it took me a long time to, this just crept up
2:17:30
I didn't know I was burning out and then all of a sudden I was burnt out and it's crept up on me
2:17:35
So I've met with a wonderful therapist. The NHS up here was quite frustrating
2:17:41
I'm a big fan of the NHS. Really, they do work hard because I live in Modrum at my GP's
2:17:45
a mile and a half away in Sheffield. Right. The two systems don't talk to each other
2:17:49
I can FaceTime my cousin in the Caribbean, but they can't talk a mile and a half away from each other
2:17:53
So the appointments just weren't working out. It's not their fault. It's just the systems
2:17:58
So I went private and I had an assessment. And one of the things that she really said to me
2:18:03
she said this guy, he was one of the psychology founders. And he went and did a study of women all around the world
2:18:11
that just had newly borns. And one thing they had in common in Africa, Asia, Europe
2:18:17
that they all didn't feel good enough mothers. But all they had to do was look after their child
2:18:23
provide food, provide shelter, and they were good enough. So she said that's what she's going to work on me with
2:18:28
being good enough, not being the best. You don't have to be the best. You don't have to be amazing
2:18:32
You don't have to be super mum. You don't have to be super man. You don't have to be good enough. And is it working
2:18:38
I haven't started yet. I've only had the assessment, so I'll start next month. And that was music to your ears in a sense
2:18:44
That suddenly made things make sense. A little light bulb went off, you know
2:18:48
So is that what you were doing? You were never going to be satisfied
2:18:53
You were always going to be thinking that you were inadequate or that you failed or that you're failing, flailing even
2:18:59
I've had this innate urge to just be brilliant at what I do
2:19:05
Work is so important to me, to impress people. I've had it. I've been such a child
2:19:10
I've proved people wrong that I can do it. I am good. I'm not a waste of space
2:19:14
You know, I've just had this urge. Do you know where it came? Were your parents unencouraging at all
2:19:20
I had a bit of a rough childhood. I had psychology when I was about 12 for poor behaviour
2:19:28
But it turns out I wasn't really that badly behaved in hindsight. I was in there out of care a little bit when I was younger
2:19:34
Oh, I'm sorry. So you've spent your whole life trying to prove that you deserve to be..
2:19:39
I left home at 16, moved to Bournemouth, worked in a hotel as a porter lived in that hotel as well And I just never went home after but i never been unemployed and i always had this i show you i show you you you you are enough yeah yeah yeah that
2:19:55
why you need to hear from people isn't it you are enough absolutely and eventually i've just
2:19:59
broke myself out you know and it's just because you never told yourself yeah i didn't see it coming
2:20:04
and um well it just creeps up with me well good luck with the therapy take it easy thank you
2:20:10
stay safe as well, won't you? Yeah, thank you very much. And also, take it from me
2:20:14
all right? I know, you know, it's a relatively new acquaintance, but you are enough
2:20:20
Andy, you are enough. Thank you, thank you. That means a lot. You and I are a similar age as well
2:20:25
We did speak about six years ago, my grandson was born in lockdown and I was furious
2:20:28
I couldn't see him and Boris Johnson was having parties. Well, it's funny you mention Boris Johnson
2:20:33
because Paula in Dewsbury, who was on the line, used to be an MP
2:20:38
and if my memory serves, I think the last time we spoke, was probably about Boris Johnson
2:20:42
Paula, what made you pick up the phone? Paula Sheriff. Hi, OJ
2:20:46
Yes, you're right. I think the last time we spoke was regarding Boris Johnson
2:20:51
The reason I called today was that I was listening to your show around Carla Zenya and obviously what she said about being burnt out
2:20:59
And it just really resonated. You know, if I'm really honest, when I reflect on my time as an MP
2:21:05
was I burnt out? Absolutely, yeah. I mean, I stopped being an MP in 2019
2:21:10
Full disclosure, I lost my seat in the election. So it wasn't a choice
2:21:15
But 10 weeks later, I was diagnosed completely out of the blue with stage 3 cancer
2:21:20
Now, it wasn't, it wasn't, I'm not suggesting it was as a result of the job
2:21:24
or the hours I was working or how exhausted I was. But what's worth noting is that during that time as an MP
2:21:32
I didn't have time to do some of those things that I should have done regarding my health
2:21:36
Yes. And I know MPs are unpopular. I get it. I really do
2:21:42
But I see it from the other side. Well, that's the irony, right
2:21:46
Is that the better an MP you are, the more likely you are to be suffering from what Carla has described
2:21:51
and what you were going through yourself as well. I mean, if you're not bothering to have constituency surgeries
2:21:56
or you're sort of treating them like a lap of honour, then you're not exactly going to be going to bed at night
2:22:01
worrying that you haven't been enough or worrying that you've let people down. Exactly
2:22:05
and you know I had a marginal seat so I was always it was always in the back of my mind
2:22:10
right yes I had to really fight for every vote and obviously it did work in the end in 2019
2:22:16
but I was working literally eight nowadays seven days a week I would never very very rarely take a day off
2:22:24
and that is true and I know people think MPs just sit round the bar
2:22:28
or they you know there's no one in the actual chamber of the House of Commons therefore there must be a twiddling the thumbs somewhere
2:22:34
but the reality is very, very different, particularly, you know, when you've got a marginal constituency
2:22:39
Because that's insecurity, the most basic form of insecurity that you're describing
2:22:43
So in a way, you can never relax. Absolutely, yeah, that's so true
2:22:47
And when I saw Carla's letter, I mean, obviously, I don't agree on everything politically
2:22:53
I just thought my first instinct was, I hope she's okay. And my second one was absolute respect
2:23:00
for actually having the gut to say that because as an MP, there's something about disguising your vulnerabilities
2:23:07
You don't want... I don't know, somehow there's this huge stigma that people will exploit those vulnerabilities
2:23:14
So I think massive kudos for her. I mean, you kind of have to defend yourself
2:23:19
against all the abuse coming in by convincing yourself, let alone people around you
2:23:25
that none of it matters or that you're superhuman or your skin is 40 inches thick
2:23:30
and there's 28 hours in your day and you'd pause for a moment to reflect on whether any of that is true
2:23:36
because if you do, the whole thing might come off the rails. Absolutely, yes, totally. That's exactly how it is
2:23:43
Phone line's gone a bit funny, but I think we've got the important elements of that contribution
2:23:48
Thank you, Paula. And, you know, on the subject of what MPs go through, the conversation that we last had, that Paula will remember
2:23:54
but you quite possibly won't, was in the House of Commons when Johnson was talking about Brexit legislation
2:24:00
and he'd keep using words like surrender and traitor to describe legislation
2:24:04
And Paula reminded him that the man who assassinated Joe Cox was fond of similar language and similar rhetoric
2:24:14
And so Paula Sheriff asked, if I remember correctly, quite politely, Boris Johnson
2:24:18
to refrain from using language like surrender and traitor to describe legislation
2:24:22
aimed at blocking a no-deal Brexit. And he responded by describing her emotional plea as humbug
2:24:28
a phrase that he went on to repeat multiple times um and and i mean i hope that you can look back on
2:24:36
that moment with pride albeit that it was treated with unforgivable content by boris johnson that's
2:24:42
almost it for today vicky i'm sorry i'm not going to have time to um talk to you or brandon or
2:24:46
andrew or alex or or others but we covered an awful lot of space during that hour and and and
2:24:52
sometimes it you know it does all feel like we're pulling in the same direction and that
2:24:57
the more you can articulate a problem, the more likely you are to find a solution to it
2:25:03
There's reasons why cliches are cliches. A problem shared is a problem halved. I do hope that Ian Inverness feels that way today
2:25:09
I've got a quick answer to one of the questions I asked you today
2:25:13
which was about the missing word round. And the answer to the missing word round
2:25:18
which I've now managed to lose, was, no, here it is, blank, that crossed the..
2:25:22
I see if Sheila Fogarty knows this. Have you seen this one? Go on, no, I haven't seen anything. So blank, blank, that's the miss
2:25:27
Yes, I understand the game. That crossed Irish Sea and took over London pubs
2:25:33
Blank that crossed Irish Sea and took over London pubs. Oh, a fish
2:25:39
It's a fish. No, it's not. No. Oh, the crisps. My favourite crisps in the world
2:25:46
It's cheese and onion tato. It's the tato. Yeah. The crisp. It's the taste of my childhood
2:25:50
That crossed Irish Sea and took over London pubs. I think there's a theme park, isn't there
2:25:54
Is there not a Tato land? Is there? I should have probably checked that before saying it on the radio
2:25:58
That's it for today. If you missed any of it, you can listen back on our free Global Player
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2:26:07
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2:26:13
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2:26:18
But now it's time for Sheila Fogarty. James O'Brien on LBC
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